Marriage Builders
WW handed me divorce papers yesterday...

They have NOT been filed with the court, they were just filled out, with most of the entries (including disposition of assets, parenting plan, etc.) "to be determined by the court at a later date...

I've not posted for awhile...been reading many of your posts, however, as so many of what goes on here translates from one situation to another.

Here's my situation ...

Here's the thread I started for my wife , which I thank you all again for responding to when it came up. You can lead a horse to water...

WW still IC...as a matter of fact, just the other evening I received a text from her meant for OM... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> The hits, they keep on coming...

After an email from WW to OM bounced back a few months ago I sent him a very clear "enough is enough" message...CC'ing his entire family.

His response made clear just how much of an ignorant and immoral POS he is. I'd love to post it here just to see how much venom it would whip up...but then what's the point?

How is it that good people are usually the ones who are most self-aware and critical, while the world's social detritus have no such life skills??

Exposure has been complete...no impact, at least on her.

We finished a session of "divorce" counseling the other day and she keeps saying things like "we're just not in the same place", and "I don't want to be married to you anymore..."

I've done a session w/ JH, and her guidance was great.

She recommended NOT to go to Plan B after our session, however, when I go home on weekends to be w/ the kids, WW leaves...to a location unknown.

Plan A difficult due to her fleeing whenever I'm home... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

From my older posts, you'll see that have taken more than my fair share of responsibility for the state of our marriage, however whenever she now refers to the state of our marriage I remind her that while I had a hand in it, her choice to have an A was hers and hers alone.

I'm in a good place, personally, and my relationship w/ my kids truly brings me joy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So back to the subject of this post...I'd truly love some feedback on what to do with the papers... ignore? shred? fold into paper airplanes???

She has repeatedly used the phrase "WE just need to go ahead and file", as though she needs me to agree...

My sense of duty and need to please often leads me to agree to things that I really don't want, but do I ignore this at my own peril???

HELP!

L2F
Posted By: Set_You_Free Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/16/08 11:47 PM
If you don't want the D, then store them away. I wouldn't toss them. She may be trying to force you to file. Did an Att'y fill them out, or her? If her, then more so of what I said.

It may be better for you to file first, but not if you don't want it.

Good luck to you!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/16/08 11:50 PM
Thanks SYF...

No, I DON'T want to be divorced. This is a great family, barring my WW's A and apparent MLC...

She definitely filled them out - no attorney involved.

L2F
Posted By: Julie2U Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 12:14 AM
Well, what would happen if you agree, and file?

...and, if you don't...?
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 01:38 AM
Hey L2F,

I'm sorry to hear this... I have absolutely ZERO experience with D papers... so I'll just stay in my lane...

I guess my only thought would be this: Can you protect your retirement from her by proving that she is in an adulterous affair??? If so, then I would do whatever I could to protect your retirement so that you can provide for your children and NOT your WW IF the D actually goes through.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: LAsunshinegirl Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 03:39 AM
L2F...we are in the same boat. I got mine in the mail today. They were also filled out by hand by WS. I too am sick at heart.
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 04:24 AM
Sorry to hear this L2F (and LA)! I'm with SYF- store them and tell her "I don't talk D, only M. You'll have to speak to an attorney." Do you have one? If not, maybe you should and then use him/her for all things D-related. Ditto on RIF, too, your lawyer can handle all of those details.

Good luck to you and God Bless!!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 03:46 PM
Thanks all...

JJ, interesting question...

If I agree, I sincerely think she will NOT put the brakes on. She's incredibly stubborn, largely because she's shown she feels that changing her mind is a sign of weakness, and she views almost everything as a battle, or win/lose.

If I agree, we get divorced, marriage is over, I'm devastated, she's "free" to continue her A without it being "wrong" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Kids will be saddled w/ all the lifelong baggage associated w/ being children of divorce...childhood officially over.

If I don't agree...she may or may not eventually go the next step (probably months down the road) and actually file the papers as written.

I have issues w/ her "plan" for distribution of assets and debts...

For those in mediation, is that something that comes after one spouse has filed?

If I don't agree I've given her just more ammo to claim how "controlling" I am...

It sure sucks not being a mind reader... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hey RIF! Given we're in a no-fault state, I don't think adultery has ANY play in distribution of assets, including retirement, as far as I can tell.

LAgirl, I'm so sorry for you too... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. This sure sucks, huh?

Perhaps yours is the best plan, LaLa. I consulted w/ an attorney awhile ago just to get some basic advice. I'd rather spend the money on JH.

Mr W has said in the past that sometimes being the first to file "helps" your case... My WW is not even remotely interested in taking this to court, citing cost...but it could also be that even after all the exposure, she's afraid, or at least uncomfortable taking this "public"...who knows...

She says it would be "stupid" to pay for 2 attorneys...

Again, any mind readers out there???

It's a beautiful morning here in the great Northwest...

Life is good, even when in the depths of h#ll...

L2F
Posted By: graplin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 03:58 PM
L2F,

I strongly suggest you have at least one consultation with an attorney. An attorney can help you protect your interests and he/she can assist you sometimes in at least making the process a slower one.

What state are you in? While adultery has no impact of the divorce proceedings in a no-fault state, it can in some states, have an impact on custody issues.

In IL for instance, affairs carried out blatantly in front of the children can be used in determining custody outcomes.

What is your goal in regards to your children, the home, bank accounts, debts, retirement funds, etc? Many states now have a budding Father's Rights organization where you might get more information on what has happened to other husbands going through your situation.
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 03:59 PM
Hey L2F!

All of this is uncharted waters for me... Can you check with the JAG and see what guidance they can give you?

We got another 4 inches of snow this evening in about two hours so my flight is delayed until Sunday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I stopped by the bazaar this evening a got a copy of my favorite move... yeah, Top Gun! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there buddy... I'm praying for you! ...and remember it aint over 'til the fat lady sings!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Set_You_Free Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 04:38 PM
L2F, not a mind-reader here, just one with much experience and trying to gain wisdom from it all. Seems to me she is trying to force you to file, then she can say you did it, not her, As for controlling, her forcing you to choose to file or not is more her controlling than you.

Just because she has an asset plan doesn't mean it will happen. Mediation is for coming together. If that route is taken you will each present a plan and try to compromise. If it ever goes to court, you will get to present your plan as well. Her being afraid of the cost should work in your favor.

A landmine to watch out for, I tried to do the best for my kids by letting them stay in the house and giving ex the lions share of the assets, in return for slightly reduced CS (to a reasonable level - we both worked it out so we both had liveable incomes after CS.) Sadly, as soon as I got a girlfriend, ex changed her mind and asked for increased CS - you can't go back and change the asset plan, so I was screwed!

Good luck in all this, stay patient and don't let her actions guide yours. Make your plan and stick to it! You are the only sane one right now.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 05:04 PM
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Mr W has said in the past that sometimes being the first to file "helps" your case... My WW is not even remotely interested in taking this to court, citing cost...but it could also be that even after all the exposure, she's afraid, or at least uncomfortable taking this "public"...who knows...

She says it would be "stupid" to pay for 2 attorneys...

If you file first then you "control" the case, meaning you can determine how fast it will move (unless you get a court that sets mandatory deadlines to move the docket faster). But, OTOH, you can always choose to "nonsuit" or "dismiss" the case later down the road, forcing her to refile and start the clock over.

Stupid to pay for two attorneys? Not if you know what's good for you. That's a conflict of interest for the attorney, because a divorce is an adversarial proceeding.

Court-ordered mediation (in Texas at least) comes after suit is filed. You can always go through voluntary mediation first before anything is filed. As you know, mediation is not binding on either party. It's just a "lay your cards on the table" discussion for purposes of settlement.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 05:11 PM
Quote
stay patient and don't let her actions guide yours


This can never be said too often...

In my consultation w/ the attorney, evidently the adultery must be more than just blatent - it has to be shown to significantly impact the chilren... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

It's astounding that in this day and age our culture is so enabling of this kind of behavior... It's easier to get divorced, cheat on your spouse, lie, etc., than it is to get out of any other legally binding contract... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My "goal" is to recover... I am NOT interested in entering into a discussion of division of assets w/ WW. As LaLa put it, if it came to that, I guess I'd want to leave that to lawyers.

I love my WW with all my heart and after 2 years I'm just as sure I do NOT want to get divorced.

L2F
Posted By: Set_You_Free Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 05:17 PM
Actually, when ex and I got divorced, we made the agreement ourselves and had an atty fill out the papers. He didn't represent either of us. I guess you could say it was more a self-mediation than an atty battle.

If we both could have stayed adults, it would have all worked out great! Sadly, she got "hurt" when I found another woman to love, then went off the deep end when I got married. Oddly, she claimed to have met someone "so much better than me," and claimed to have plans to marry before I did. Later, I never heard of this guy any more. I miss him, he might have made the ex happy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But, hey, she's not bitter! Just ask her!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 08:44 PM
Quote
we made the agreement ourselves and had an atty fill out the papers.


I think that's what WW envisions...that I'll just roll over and get out of the way of her A so she can legitimize it.

I truly think that for all of OM's profession of undying love, once WW becomes "available", things will change. After a 2 year affair, things are nowhere near as rosy as they once were.

I've read of Plan A'ing during D proceedings...and up to 2 yrs after...that's a long row to hoe.

TOP GUN??!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

"I want some butts!"
Posted By: Set_You_Free Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/17/08 10:18 PM
Long road, yes. Guess you just have to decide what you really want and what it is worth to you.

Good luck, my friend. You can be my wingman anytime.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/18/08 01:34 AM
The more I think about it, handing me the papers was more of a gesture than an action requiring a response...

It was as though it was a previously unused weapon in her arsenal, rather than an action leading to an event...D

Does that make sense?

The forms were filled out, but not signed, nor were they filed w/ the court... Am I in denial???
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/18/08 01:35 AM
No, SYF, you can be MY wingman... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: graplin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/18/08 05:14 AM
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The more I think about it, handing me the papers was more of a gesture than an action requiring a response...

It was as though it was a previously unused weapon in her arsenal, rather than an action leading to an event...D


Did she give you some instructions or directions when you got the papers?

The reality is, if you don't want a divorce, you don't have to assist her in getting one. That would include filling in details, signing anything, filing anything, gathering up any requested information, etc.

If you have an attorney, I would pass the papers on to him/her and if you don't have an attorney, I do suggest trying to get one. Men usually start out at a disadvantage in divorce court/family court. Better that you should be as prepared for the contingencies that might come up as well as know if there are legal steps you can take to better protect yourself.
Posted By: Set_You_Free Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/18/08 04:15 PM
OK, I'll be your wingman, Maverick!

I don't think you are in denial. Stay strong, map out your course and stick to it. She doesn't conrol you.

I would agree, it was a weapon she used, now you can chose to make it impotent.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/18/08 08:08 PM
L2F:

She wants to make it YOUR FAULT.

Therefore, she goes to the web, and prints off the forms that the court posts for an uncontested divorce.

No, you don't need an attorney to divorce.

See what happened to SYF? No Attorney, and screwed on CS, EVEN though the agreement had something else.

So, get an attorney, to protect yourself and gain knowledge particular to your Sitch and state.

What she gave you was paper that she couldn't bear to complete.

IF she was so he!!-bent on D'ing you, she would have them all completed, sent to the court house, and you getting served by the court, as required.

All she did was fill in some blanks, and hand them to you.

Stick them in a file folder somewhere, they may come in handy later, although I'm sure there isn't enough info on them to help/harm your case.

Your daughters are old enough that they can spend time alone in your house without thier mother, who can find an undisclosed location on the weekends when you are home.

I think that if you really wanted to move this thing along, you have the consult with the attorney, and start working on a plan to move her OUT.

She likes the fence. Time to knock her off.

Your WW is FINE with staying home all week while you are not there, enjoying the fruits of your labor, and then she enjoys someone elses fruit on the weekend.

Time to let them provide all the fruit.

And she loses some of that that she wants around. Daughters. The Facade of a normal life. The Home, etc.

JH has been advising you, and I recommend that you continue to do so.

JH will cost you alot less than the attorneys, whether 1 or 2, and the other costs of actual divorce. Emotional, physical, monetary, etc.

Start making lists of your interactions with daughters and the time you send with them. Make sure you get 50/50 custody. And this may be something that filing first works to your advantage. You sue for 100% custody, and the reasons why, and continuation of abode, with her vacating for your childrens well being. By you getting on the record FIRST, she has to move the court OFF of it.

LG
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/19/08 04:00 PM
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She wants to make it YOUR FAULT


Yup! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Quote
IF she was so he!!-bent on D'ing you, she would have them all completed, sent to the court house, and you getting served by the court, as required


...which after 2+ years you think she could figure out... She's NO dummy, and she's VERY capable. As a military wife of 17+ years, she's been in charge of ALL our business at home and is nothing if not capable...so your points are well-taken.

If you read my sitch, you'll see that due to logistics and the realities of my job situation and deployment schedule, moving her out is a non-starter.

Also, while she's still IC, it appears as if OM has long-since determined this is not so much worth the hassle, and only contacts her when it's convenient for him... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> What an A$$!

Had too many windows open when I stumbled on the below and copied it from another post...but I really think it applies in my situation:

Quote
Just a thought (and forgive me if I can't recall when and how the affair ended) but often the WW THINKS they can win back the OM by being single. That the complication of them being married and living with their husband WAS the determining factor why OM dumped them or ended it.

She's he11 bent on this decision but she just can't not try to win back OM's interest. Maybe even OM said, "call me when you divorce or actually separate from him" knowing full well that most spouses in affairs Don't so he wasn't willing to invest in more of a relationship with her (oh, the honor of OP's that can't handle their married affair partner cheating on them with their spouse).


Her primary focus now seems to be on fleeing from all the guilt, pain and pressure all associated with HER actions, and the only OUT she now sees is D...

Plan A.......
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/19/08 04:04 PM
Hey LaLA, stumbled on the below from one of your other posts...

Quote
1. The first few weeks I tried to convince my H that what I did couldn't possibly be considered an A because me and OM did not sneak around. I told him there was no secretive meetings and that we did not sleep together, and so it was most definitley NOT "technically" cheating.

2. When that didn't work, I then tried to convince him he should actually use the whole thing as a turn on. That because another man wanted me, he should use that to get revved up.

3. When THAT didn't work, I told him that it was all his fault because he neglected me to "play" on his computer (he does not play games, chat, surf porn or play poker or anything that could be considered by a NORMAL human being to be "playing").

4. When THAT didn't work, I told him that I really just wanted to be single. That it had nothing to do with OM, and that I had felt trapped for years. That we had been nothing more than roommates for years and I need more excitement in my life. I told him I would always love him, but the "spark" was gone and could never be recaptured. I actually compared it to my XBFs from HS/college (I had 2 relationships during this time which lasted for over 3 yrs each) and that "once my feelings were gone, they were gone...nothing ever brought them back."

5. When he would get angry and tell me I was going to destroy my beautiful boys, I said "They will be fine. People get Ds all the time...they will part of the majority, not minority. As long as they know we both love them, kids are resilient."


Shall I go on...? I really don't want to b/c it makes me ill. What was I thinking? I don't have a friggin clue. All of the above statements were completely false but at the time I believed them wholeheartedly. I was MISS THANG and WOMAN HEAR ME ROAR.

Incidentally, I did NOT believe these things b4 the OM and do NOT believe them now.


GREAT stuff!! She's gone through EACH of these, and we're currently at # 4 and 5. When she is dismissive of effect on DD/DS, I want to SCREAM!!!
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/20/08 06:28 AM
Ya know, I would say "thanks" but LORD it's hard to own up to that crap!!! I just need BSs who come hear in absolute agony over the thoughtless, ridiculous, devastating things WSs say, asking "is my WS really in a fog?" to know the answer is a resounding YES!!!

The sad part is I don't know how many of them fully come out of it, and how many just spend the rest of their lives sitting in this mindframe and convincing themselves it is RIGHT to feel this way. And, of course, blaming everything and everyone else for their lot in life. How long would I have gone on if it hadn't been for MB? I know for darn sure that DH was D-O-N-E and that if I hadn't figured it out when I did, my silly butt would be at the beginning of a D right now. And my kids...ugh...it just hurts very much to think about it.

I hope your WW wakes up soon, L2F- for your sake and the sake of your children. Hang in there, buddy!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/20/08 03:04 PM
LaLa, I can imagine it must be hard...your courage in coming here, your courage to fight, your courage to face YOURSELF is truly inspiring...I am very happy for you!

Thank You.

Talking about the MB principles is all well and good, but as we've all heard, the good Dr himself has said he'd leave if his W had an A. That's why it's so very important to see that they actually work in practice.

After reading of all the misery here a BS can whip up a good dose of self-righteous anger - I know I have. Reading your story, while I'm sure it triggers you muchly to write, really DOES help others to see that there's a real and human face behind the alien behavior.

I know that I am nearing the end of a poor plan A, due both to my own particular logistical realities, and the advanced stage of my dear WW's own determined campaign to end this marriage in favor of...well, I'm just not sure what - and neither is she. However, she quotes from your #5 above... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Seeing the human side of the pain you feel/felt is important for me. I am often filled w/ such anger towards her - the primary reason I'll need to soon be switching plans.

I had a dream the other night. There was a gang of hoodlums outside our house making a terrible ruckus as they drank, carried on and vandalized cars on the street. My children were upset. I went outside to "take care of" the situation by confronting them and trying to explain how it's not nice to deface other people's property and keep children up on a school night. Guess who was there? OM, in all his loser regalia and his friends... He gave me a "yeah, whatever dude" and out of the corner of my eye I saw WW slink off into the darkness so as not to be seen or confronted....

Even with the full force and weight of "what's right" on my side, my dear WW and loser OM can still do whatever they like to tear down the most important thing in my life - my family... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/20/08 05:22 PM
But what was important in this dream is that YOU did go outside and confront the threat to your family. OM's brillant reply, "yeah whatever dude" was oh so typical. Maybe your wife slinking off was her shame at seeing you doing the right thing and embarrassment of seeing OM revealed for what he is. I think you can get this from that dream, never be afraid to stand up for your family. The OM isn't as big a threat as you think... he's just a punk.
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/20/08 09:22 PM
AMEN, PM!!

Hang on to what you know is RIGHT and REAL. You are fighting for your W and your M, not your WW and her babble. Keep fighting the good fight, and you will be rewarded- whether it is by recovering your M or just knowing you did the best you could.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/21/08 05:32 AM
Thanks LaLa, PM...

As helpless and powerless as I feel because the RESULTS aren't like I'd wish, I really AM doing all I can do.

I am NOT rolling over, I am NOT giving in to this evil, I'm fighting for my family!

Thx for that boost...I needed that!

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/23/08 03:11 AM
Hey all,

Had a great Plan A coupla days...

DD's birthday - she offered to pay for half!!?? She thanked me for picking it up a couple of days later, totally unsolicited. My response was - "of COURSE I'd pay, it's my daughter's birthday, and I'm the financial base of the family, that's my job."

I called her this morning on a business-related item and she was a little short with me. This afternoon out of the blue she apologized for being testy and I thanked her then tell her how I probably didn't express myself clearly and took the "blame" for the interaction.

It was a surprise for her to apologize as her inability to do so in the past has been an issue w/ her for years. My gracious acceptance than shouldering of my own responsibility I think set her at ease...

We chatted nicely for another few minutes then I went to the gym.

It felt great hearing what sounded like her "old self".

For those of you who haven't read the link to my situation in my first post of this thread, during the week I work in another town and come home on weekends. She routinely leaves, but we still talk on the phone and cross paths, when I try to plan A my butt off...

OBTW, no mention of the papers and it's been a week...

Kinda makes me think of Lino's WS moving divorce papers around the house, and her giving them to me was just another poke...

Graplin, I see I didn't answer your question...No, she didn't give me any instructions, instead she muttered something like "you can read them, shred them or do whatever with them..."

hmmmm......
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/23/08 02:20 PM
Hey L2F!!!

Sounds like you're doing better with your Plan-A! Keep it up!

I know it's hard, but it will take some time for her to start believing that your actions are "real". I'm really happy for you!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/24/08 01:13 AM
I think I'm coming out of my own fog, after dday plus 18months...

The realities of this military lifestyle has dragged this thing out for so long...

Reading TMTS, 14th and Lino's threads have taken on new meanings to me just recently.

While I "understood" on a rational level before all the Plan A fundamentals...I've finally got it. It was like a switch that finally got thrown.

I am able to practice "loving detachment", I am improving my reverse babble, I recognize the futility of trying to "storm the castle" with a full frontal assault, instead opting for the longer, more circuitous route. I have learned patience.

Perhaps it's the spending more time with my kids... When I'm with them, I'm truly WITH them, and present in a way I wasn't for so many years. I think in many ways I was sleepwalking through my life and marriage because it was so busy.

Is that how it is for FWWs? There have been many here who look back at how foggy they were, but I've not read a post where one talked about that "moment" when they "got it", and why...

I was talking on the phone w/ WW the other day and was telling her about someone high-ranking at my work that had engaged in an affair before I'd arrived there. I forget how it came up, but it was not a planned topic. I stopped for a moment, realizing the irony of telling this to WW, then continued, as though she too would appreciate the story.

I didn't do it (as far as I can tell) to educate or snipe at her, but instead to confide in my DW a story of interest. It was as though we both were able to understand how truly low this person's actions were without applying it to our own marriage. I left it there and moved on to other daily light conversation.

I wondered what she was thinking after we hung up...

However, I realized that I didn't care! I wasn't trying to outwit her, or teach her, we were just talking. I realized I didn't have to edit my thoughts to please her. I let the chips fall where they may.

This was also a conversation DD and I had recently. After she'd said how she'd told mom that she wanted her to tell her she wouldn't be seeing OM again, WW said she couldn't tell her that. DD said it made her feel like bringing things up like that with mom was useless.

I told her that it wasn't HER JOB to worry about what mom would think. She's a child, and it's her job to be selfish. WW is the parent, and it's her job to be one. She seemed satisfied with that, sensing the truth of it and it made her relieved that she didn't have any responsibility to edit her feelings so as not to offend her mother...

I know that many have said that affairs have resulted in stronger marriages...perhaps it's because ONE of the partners has had to become such a grown-up to survive the A...
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/24/08 02:40 AM
Wow, I just took a trip through L2F land...

Got a couple of questions...On 11/17, you said you were in Plan B...what happened?

I must have missed the post where you said the logistics of her moving out were a no-go.

Right now, you're still in Plan A...and she's cake-eating...because you ARE meeting her ENs...and you know it.

Just gotta say...WOW...I read your posts to others, so many of them, just amazing. Re-read them, L2F...you know how to stay present, respect (that letter to OMF was terrific), know when you project (or suspect you're doing it), act not react, stand for your marriage, listen and repeat (you do that, right?), and choose to love, act from your choice to love, anyway.

Now I find your current thread...and I hear you got discouraged, went into her stuff...even assumed what wasn't...felt reactive...and came to grips with her fantasy, even about divorce. Not signed, not filed...and yeah, I gave the "why pay two attorneys" during my A. And I did like lino's WW...printed out the do-it-yourself-dissolution in my state, helpfully provided for the quickie online divorce, left them around, moved them around...I threw out those forms two years ago...felt great...and shameful...and embarrassing.

You asked at what point did you wake up (okay, you asked Lexxxy, not me)...and I got to tell you...took too much...took BH becoming a WH, and me telling him to leave.

Kettle/pot/chaos.

Thing is...he left. He did. No more ENs met...and I went searching for traces of him all over the house...and found his journals...full of his pain, his confusion, his fear and his love...and anger.

Then typed into a search engine "save my marriage" and God brought me here.

Your pain doesn't get through to your WW...you can't say it, act it, show her it in anyway that will penetrate the fog...because her fog is pain...and after two years...it's a hardened bundle...

Your presence is powerful...don't lose sight of that...human presence is...so often overlooked and under-rated. Don't you do that. Know it...like you do with your girls...know its power.

I really think it is time for Plan B...and to share that, as you were advised before, as you continuing to stand for your marriage, fight for your family...can you get out of the service, btw?

You said back in October in advice to another military BH, you know how the distance added to your issues in the marriage...even as it provided the important FS EN...so did it take precedence over your marriage, time and time again...so I'm asking you directly, what's your highest priority?

Thanks for inviting me to your thread...feels like a gift to me having your posts on MB to read and learn from. You rock.

LA
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/24/08 09:49 AM
Plan-A

Plan-A

Plan-A

... You're doing great L2F!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/24/08 06:01 PM
Thanks for the cheer, RIF!!!

LA, you brought tears to my eyes...

Yes it's been a ride, but one I'm not ready to get off.

You asked about my brief plan B. I ended it for two reasons. First, I remembered/realized that plan B isn't so much to break the affair, but to protect my own love bank. With my being gone during the week, it gives me the time to protect myself and focus on my life before I dive back into any face to face interactions...

Secondly, my dear 13 yr old son said, "Dad, how can you work on anything if you don't talk to her? Isn't that just running away??" I had to laugh...yeah, it kinda is. My reasons for going to plan b when I did had more to do with my pushing her to have no contact and her refusing to do so and I responded with a "well then I can no longer have any contact with you..." A reaction, not a plan...

So, I'm back in plan A until I get a flashing red LOW LOVE BANK light...

Most of the discouragement you have been reading is my venting here where it doesn't affect my mood negatively. I've tried to be such a rock for so long and took a hiatus from posting here that things either got bottled up or I spewed them out at WW...never a good idea.

I'm back here to be able to have others "witness" my pain since WW can't/won't.

Thank you all for bearing witness and offering your help and support, as I've tried to do to others...

My highest priority is my family...actually my kids. Actually, I guess you could say my highest priority is me, and in looking after myself I can then be the source of support my children need.

As for being a husband, I've moved from Buyer to Renter status. Over the years, I think I was the renter, and in the earlier stages of my marriage, WW was the Buyer. A couple of years before the A, I moved to the Buyer category, but it was only after I think I'd sensed WW had moved to being a renter.

I spent a good deal of time being a buyer with her new freeloader status and it killed me. Depleted my love bank.

I'm in a more stable and sustainable place now as a renter, which allows me to not react so much to her freeloader status.

As for getting out. I've talked w/ many others about this and have made MY decision to stay. Reasons are numerous, but bottom line, I'm on my last deployable tour before retirement and besides not being able to get out right now due to contractual reasons--yes, I honor contracts--if I try to shorten it, I'll only end up filling some individual deployment in a combat zone and spend up to a whole year away...unacceptable for my kids....

The military lifestyle makes a pure Plan A/Plan B almost impossible. In essence, I'm able to do both, swooping in and plan A'ing the heck out of her, then leaving and not LBing. Yeah it leaves open the possibility of contact, but that's HER choice, and nothing I can do can control that part of her behavior.

I often hear of people here turning off cell phone accounts, shutting off internet, etc., but in reality, all a WS has to do is get their own cell phone or go to an internet cafe...again, it's their choice, and must be held accountable.

My being gone doesn't enable her A, it only provides her more opportunities to make a bad choice...not something within my control.

My love bank is stable due to family, friends, and even some inputs from those here...thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (no worries, only the most platonic ENs...)

SO, that's where I am, and that's where I'll stay until and unless she divorces me.
Posted By: fearnoevil Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/24/08 07:40 PM
L2F,
Today I finally got some time to read other people's thread's to try to educate myself more. I never realized that so many people were following along and going through almost identical [email]cr@p.[/email] I haven't read everything, but I'm trying to follow yours, TMTS, and 14th's.

I'm going to give you the same quote I gave 14 earlier, just to show you my support.

"In the confrontation between the river and the rock, the river always wins…not through strength but by perseverance."

I know its not much, but keep it in the back of your mind.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/24/08 08:27 PM
Thanks Lino!

It IS truly amazing how similar all these cases are...did they all watch the same stupid movie on Lifetime, or what?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I too have spent some time over in your corner and you're getting great support over there...hang in there!!

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/24/08 08:54 PM
LA, I reread your post...and like most of your posts, I get more each time I read them...pulling layers off the onion...

Quote
Right now, you're still in Plan A...and she's cake-eating...because you ARE meeting her ENs...and you know it.


Is that a bad thing to be meeting her ENs? After all these years I'm slowly discovering just what they are.

As for her cake-eating...yes, she is. There are some here who advocate action to push her off the fence, but knowing how stubborn she is in general, doing so I truly feel will push her onto the side away from me.

A recurring theme is that most affairs die a natural death. In her case, it is dying, if not already dead. Problem is, she's still clinging to it to some unknown degree--hence her refusal to commit to no contact.

OM is a loser--plain and simple, and pretty much the only thing I say to her these days is that she "deserves better", rather than detail just how much of a scum he is.

She thanks me for saying that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

If I'm patient and consistent...with my Plan A and let her Plan A(ffair) die, then we both win, right?

Quote
Your pain doesn't get through to your WW...you can't say it, act it, show her it in anyway that will penetrate the fog...because her fog is pain...and after two years...it's a hardened bundle...


I SO see this! And it is so sad. That's exactly what she is...a hardened bundle... I see my "job" as being to slowly loosen it, rather than chop away at it.

Quote
Thing is...he left. He did. No more ENs met...and I went searching for traces of him all over the house...and found his journals...full of his pain, his confusion, his fear and his love...and anger.


Where in there did your "decision" to reengage happen? Was it the shock of him finding someone else??

During our trip to the marriage bootcamp one of the facilitators told me he told her that one day I'll have enough of this and walk away. He described her response as a sort of surprised shock... Perhaps that's what it'll take.

Quote
You asked at what point did you wake up (okay, you asked Lexxxy, not me)...and I got to tell you...took too much...took BH becoming a WH, and me telling him to leave.


Thanks for sharing your experience too, LA, and I thought I had asked for it as well. As for my being a WH, I can tell you that I am SO conscious of what ENs are NOT being met that I consciously avert my eyes from anyone I find attrractive.

I stopped exchanging emails with someone I met (NOT from MB, btw) who was also going through a tough time because I found myself feeling the beginnings of an emotional attachment with her (she probably had no clue) and it truly rattled me.

I also have stopped drinking ANY alcohol or coffee and have been pleasantly surprised at how my highs and lows have all evened out. I still have the same emotions, but I can recognize them for what they are, deal with them and not react or let them control ME...

The roller coaster ride no longer has painful drops or jolts...it's just another ride...

Quote
Your presence is powerful...don't lose sight of that...human presence is...so often overlooked and under-rated. Don't you do that. Know it...


Thanks for this, and your comments on my earlier posts, LA...it means a lot to me.

I think one of the things that makes WW truly uncomfortable is just how present I am...it unnerves her sometimes... I need to tone it down sometimes, work on the nonchalance.

I AM a force to be reckoned with <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> and I need to be a little less intimidating <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Beautiful day here...hope you are all enjoying it as well!

L2F
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/25/08 04:22 AM
To answer your question from my own sitch, the realization came when DH said I want a D, and he meant it. He had never threatened it in all those months of ups and downs (this was 10 months after D-day), so I knew he was serious. That night I went to the Recovery board and told my angry, wayward story.

When DH got home from work that night, he still wanted the D...(I thought he would cool off while at work, but NOPE, he was D-O-N-E). I tried to talk with him a little bit and realized it was going nowhere. When he came to bed, I just lost it...sobbing for over an hour and begging him to stay. He was stunned. Rarely do I cry, and this was full-body, gut-wrenching, can't-even-talk-or-breath sobbing. He agreed we could keep working at the M and wouldn't leave or file for D. A couple nights later I brought my story to this board and got a true MB edumacation! I think it was a combination of me being petrified, and heartbroken for my boys if we were to D, and finally letting go of the anger and letting the rest of my walls come down. Then, if you have read my thread (first few pages), you know what happened with the vets here. They straightened me up RIGHT QUICK, thankya! From there, I read story after story of people here in so much pain over the very thing I had done to my DH, and was shocked at the similarities! I started reaching out to them and since then we have been well on our way to recovery.

So, there you have it...OH, and this...

Quote
did they all watch the same stupid movie on Lifetime, or what??

Um, I think it was Oprah <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/25/08 10:42 PM
Oprah... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> don't get me started.

If there was ever someone who should NEVER be giving relationship advice...it's her.

On a different note, been reading the whole Plan B for an alcoholic thing and it's got me thinking...

I think that WW has an "alcohol problem".

She would deny it.

Mother and grandmother are full-blown alcoholics.

In replaying most of our poor exchanges of the last decade, alcohol was involved.

She met OM when drunk off her A$$.

She's often flirted when drunk.

She does NOT drink and drive.

She does NOT get falling down drunk.

She is NOT physically abusive.

But she just gets argumentative and is generally not very nice after that second glass of wine...

I've skirted around this for years, perhaps trying to downplay it, trying to deny it, since I didn't know what to do.

Many here have mentioned Al Anon. How does that work?

Suggestions?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/27/08 06:56 AM
Just spent a total of about an hour w/ WW while home briefly to "fix" some stuff before heading out of town for a week.

Kids made huge deposits in my Love Bank...God bless them.

WW was pleasant.

She just does NOT look me in the eye much anymore, as nice as I am to her...

Lousy weather...both outside and inside my soul right now.

Reminding myself that feelings follow actions, not other way around, otherwise I'll go nuts... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Sure would appreciate any additions to WW's thread while I'm out of pocket. She may not respond, but she does read it...

I'll check back in next Sat...

Hope you all have a great week!

L2F
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/27/08 07:17 AM
Hey L2F!

Where's the other post? Is it in GQ2? I'll go look for it and will keep it bumped up while you're out and about!

Stay safe out there and try not to bend anything, OK? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/27/08 03:30 PM
Good Morning RIF (or goodnight for you... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

ISD's thread is in the link in my sig line.

Leaving this am for some good "training"!

L2F
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/27/08 03:41 PM
Hey L2F,

We got about 6" of snow today... so we're pretty much stuck here on the FOB for a while...

Hope you have a great time! Are they gonna let you get up and play with the 'kids', or are you going to watch them from the ground?

I'll Keep ISD's thread bumpped up while you're out!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/27/08 04:35 PM
Thx RIF!

I'll actually be on and below deck, learning the ins and outs of the new job.

Let the "kids" play... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Don't have too many snowball fights while I'm gone...

Have had the epiphany lately that I'm still focusing too much on the A and OM (and I truly think it's over), and not enough on Plan A...

Any questions that fill in info on where we are in our M or how we got here that help you all better understand my sitch would be greatly appreciated...along with some words of support.

Be back in a week!

L2F

OBTW, I'm getting indications that OM and his family are going through a "rough time"...karma's a bitc#, eh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 01/27/08 05:07 PM
Quote
OBTW, I'm getting indications that OM and his family are going through a "rough time"...karma's a bitc#, eh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


hee hee <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Plan-A...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/03/08 11:02 AM
Hey L2F,

Just checking in with you to see how you're doing!

Hope you had fun last week!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/03/08 06:57 PM
Hey L2F! Hope you had a safe trip!

Also, I hope you are not angry with me for being tough on your WW. She is very close to the edge and needed a good nudge back in the right direction....
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/05/08 11:18 PM
Hey RIF, LaLa...

Feel free to pile on to WW... coming from me it's just LBing.

...which I did do, last night, unfortunately.

She was gone when I returned home...kitchen a mess. She clearly felt either she had to leave before I got home, or her "appointment" was so important she couldn't be late...

This is why we go to Plan B...or should after this long.

As Lino put it, my feelings for her are "gone, bably gone".

She was back to her shrewish behavior on the phone last night and asked when I was going to "sign" the papers.

I gave her the "I don't do divorce" thing. She said she'd just have me served...

After a few more exchanges she gave me several "F you's", after which I stupidly allowed 2 years of venom and froth to rise to the surface and replied "well here's one for you WW...OM can HAVE your sorry a$$..."

class act, huh? I HATE it that I rise to the bait. I feel like crap, and no doubt she gains no small amount of satisfaction when I "lose it"...proving what a bad husband I am....damn....

Anyway, she chose to go to a doctor's appt yesterday after work, citing the fact that she has to go when the appts are available...problem is, it meant my DD15 had to walk home alone in the dark from her piano lesson on a very deserted rural road...something I've NEVER let her do.

I unloaded on her, saying that she only works 3 days a week and she can get an appt that doesn't conflict w/ hers or the kid's sched...I'm just so MAD at her I could spit.

someone talk me off the ledge pls...I do NOT like these growing feelings of hatred...

Plan B sure makes sense now...
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/06/08 03:16 AM
Hey L2F!

Good to see you around again...

I can understand losing your temper and LBing. I've done it many times myself.

I'm surely not going to try and talk you into anything, but I have to ask what's changed since a week or so ago? It is entirely within your 'rights' to go to plan-b or even D if that is your choice...

We're here for you so vent away!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/06/08 03:45 AM
I hope Plan B isn't coming too late. Try to control your anger, though...it gets you nowhere and (as you said) validates her warped sense of entitlement. Maybe you could use some re-charging of the batteries...a phone call with the Harley's would probably do that for ya! They would know better than us what to do at this point.

Waywards are terrible parents. I am so sad for your daughter to have to walk home alone like that...make SURE you are keeping a journal of these things. She is selfish and only thinks of herself right now.

I just went back and re-read some of your stuff. The OM is a total loser and will crumble under the pressure of trying to fulfill all of her needs. Plan B is the next step, but it has to be flawless. In other words, you have to go completely dark. Make sure all arrangements are made for visitation ahead of time and get a lawyer right away. I told you this a while ago, but I'm not sure if you have one yet. This is imperative as he/she needs to do all the negotiating in D or LSA.

Are you planning on leaving or is she going to go? Any way you can keep the house? Custody will be hard being that you are gone so much, but maybe shared parenting. Make sure she must stay within a certain vicinity of you so that she cannot run off with this loser and screw up your kids' lives even more for her little fantasy world.

It is so hard after being married for 17 years. I know you are heart-broken. My heart and my prayers go out to you. Please don't let her suck you into these fights. You are better than that! I have faith in you, and I know you will do what's best for you and your children. They should be told immediately- and before she gets a chance to spin her web of lies around them. They know something's wrong anyways, so don't keep them guessing. they are old enough to know the truth about their lives. Read up on Eyeofthestorm's thread as he is just a little further along than you (as is lino and chrisner). He has gotten some great advice on his thread that I think would really benefit you as well.

Take care!!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/06/08 04:16 AM
Hey guys...thanks...venting is certainly one of the many selling points of this board...

I should have come there to vent rather than open mouth to WW.

RIF, what changed was that I allowed expectations to creep in and was disappointed by her fleeing again upon my return, then her continued alien behavior and how it affects our kids.

Honestly, that's what pushes my buttons the most. I am so hurt and sad for our kids that WW just doesn't have it in her to have a truly intimate and caring relationship...especially with our kids.

DD feels rejected (because she's more like me), and she's truly needing an example of a strong, positive and good mother right now... The fact that WW is being so damned irresponsible and doesn't see the impact of her choices is what puts me over the edge.

Her A was an escape, and OM is one of those jacka$$ musicians (sorry LaLa) who's more interested in himself and the "experience of life" than actually doing any work to contribute to anyone else's well being.

LaLa, if you go to my story and then search for that user name, you'll see that my kids know ALL of what's going on. They look at mom like she has two heads.

DD recently said that she'd think WW would be "doing all she can to become trustworthy"... I was impressed.

I've seen a L (WW criticized me for not being honest about it...), but have not retained him...yet.

My state is pretty liberal and rules largely in favor of the mother. If it comes to a custody battle, however, I won't accept less than 51%.

thanks for the opportunity to vent....

Now back to plan A...

JEEEZ this sucks!
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/06/08 04:30 AM
Hang in there L2F!

Give the Harley's a call and get some 'professional' advice!

I do understand how it would be VERY easy to become angry... Mrs. RIF wasn't the best mom when she was involved in all of her A's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and I was spending most of my time in the field, so our oldest daughter suffered through numerous baby-sitters and day care providers while Mrs. RIF had her 'fun'...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/06/08 04:33 AM
No offense taken, bud!

And sorry for all the questions. Good for you about telling the kids. At least they are able to see who is destroying the M...plus, at their age, by the time (even if you started a D right NOW-which you WON'T!!) the D was final, they would pretty much have the say in who they stay with (they may even if it was finalized tomorrow). I think it is age 13 that they can make a determination on their own, although it can be fought by the other parent, I think.

So VENT AWAY!!! I still think she needs to be sent off with Rico Suave to see just how smooth he is with her there all the time. I'll bet she would come crawling back within WEEKS (if not days!)!!!! OK-that wasn't very "MB" of me-sorry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: WhoMe Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/06/08 02:09 PM
Hi L2F,

No advice, just some moral support. I'm sorry there doesn't appear to be any improvement in your situation. Perhaps plan B time is drawing near.

Best,

Who
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/06/08 03:47 PM
Hey WHO, long time no "see". Thanks for the support!

Had an email exchange w/ WW yesterday concerning my coming home a day early from work as she had tentative "plans". I asked her if her plans were "important", and she said I'd probably not think so.

To be clear I sent her the following:

"I want to make sure I’m not misunderstood. The boss has a standing meeting every Friday at 1030 and I’m expected to be there to represent my department.

“Important” was probably the wrong word. While going for a girl’s night out with your friends might not be “important”, it would certainly be legitimate, and I’d happily bow out of the meeting to “cover” for you.

If you want to go do something that you would be willing to tell your kids or husband about, great!

If, however, your desire is to go antiquing with OMM or meet up with OM and his degenerate friends, I’m sure you understand that I would not be willing to rearrange my work schedule to enable actions that hurt both me and our children.


Don't know if I'll get a response.

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/06/08 06:23 PM
Also, in our conversation the other night, WW said that if I wouldn't sign the papers, she'd "just have to go ahead and have me served".

I repeated that I don't do divorce and that she'd have to get herself a lawyer.

"Rico Suave"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> He's so not.

Hmmmmm, "R.S"... That's IT! "Rat S#it"!!!

That's one of the things that gets me...there's SO much conflict in their "relationship" that it makes me wonder if that kind of "drama" is what WW thrives on...it's just sick.
Posted By: fearnoevil Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/06/08 10:08 PM
L2F
Just giving my support. It seems there are a few of us stuck in that limbo between plan A ending and plan B (or even plan D/FU) starting. I hate that other people are going thru the same [email]cr@p[/email], but I'm glad there is at least some support. Otherwise, I know I would have lost it by now if I hadn't been warned on what to expect.
Lino
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/06/08 11:19 PM
Thanks Lino,

I think our situations do have much in common in that our WSs have definitely "affaired down".

I've often just wondered what my WW's looking for--what would make her happy. My DD observed that she didn't think mom even knew...I sure don't.

If she would read ANY of the numerous books I've read or looked at the basic concepts here and filled out the ENQ, I might have a better idea.

I'm so with you, my man...hovering so near a viscious plan FU...then I come here to vent and get re-grounded.

Sure is a great group of solid people here! Thank God for that...it restores my faith in humanity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/06/08 11:49 PM
Communication has been at the root of our M problems from day one, even though I only became fully aware of it in recent years.

I'd be having one conversation and she'd be having another. Or, she'd take what I said to mean one thing when I'd be meaning something entirely different.

I've tried to be so much clearer in my communication in recent years for this very reason.

Her comment about my not thinking what she wanted to do this weekend would be "important" is a case in point.

Don't know if that's code for her going to see OM, or instead something completely different--a desire to go do something on her own...who knows.

To clarify, I sent her this note to piggyback on my previous one...

…Pls know that anything you’d want to do (outside of those things I mentioned earlier) I’d find important and would find a way to support…that’s one of my many roles and vows as your husband.

L2F
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/07/08 02:52 AM
Hey L2F!

I think your e-mail was great!!! Just because you're in Plan-A doesn't mean that you stuff your feelings... You stated your boundaries very clearly and let Mrs. L2F know that you aren't going to support her A...

Oh, and I believe that your DD is EXACTLY right! Mrs. L2F doesn't know what she wants!

Plan-A... Plan-A... Plan-A...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/07/08 10:10 PM
So she claims she's seeing OMM, and that her plans don't include OM...hmmmmm Don't believe it for a second.

Several weeks ago she mistakenly sent me the text meant for OM "...where r u? Do u want 2 meet me later?"

Then she told me when I confronted her that she subsequently sent him a text calling it off, telling me that "it was just too much"...what the #ell does that mean?? I asked her and she didn't answer...

Today, in preparation for this w/e, I sent her this:

WW,

First off, I miss you very much.

I hate it that you disappear before I get there.

Pulling into our driveway and seeing your car already gone feels like a hot knife being twisted into my gut.

Please stay home this weekend.

....................
Perhaps OMM thinks she’s being a “safe haven” for you. Next time you see her, ask her directly how she justifies having supported her son in an adulterous affair. What kind of role model is SHE? What the ****** does she believe IN?

I'd like to like her, but she has shown she has no respect for either me or my family, so she can expect the same from me.

You are truly an amazing person, WW, more than you know. I love you with all my heart. Please stop making choices that are destructive to you, me and our children. You deserve better, we deserve better.

I know you’re not happy…problem is, I don’t know what would make you happy. Do you?

I married you for life. That’s what I vowed to do. This is the “worse” part of “for better or worse”. I love you for who you are and are trying to be. I am committed to you and this family. I support you and this family. That’s what a husband does. That’s what the father of your children is doing. I am here for you. To anyone else, these would all be good things…please stop seeing it as a threat.

Please stay home this weekend so we can talk. If not, then at least please do not leave before I get there.

If you do leave, then please have the courtesy, courage and respect to tell the kids exactly where you’re going, what you’re doing and who you’re going to be with. They deserve to know the whole truth—it is not fair to make them continue to carry this burden of secrecy for you. [edit: they already know about the A, but WW doesn't tell them where she goes when she leaves]

If you don’t want to tell them…ask yourself why that is.

L2F


I sure wish she would stay long enough to talk. She commented the other day that she doesn't feel like talking b/c I don't listen to what she says anyway... Yup, much of it is fogbabble.

Am I pleading too much? Hard to be objective.

This whole thing would be so much easier if I didn't have to be gone during the week, but 5 hours of driving each and every day would take it's toll oh so quickly.
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/07/08 10:52 PM
I think that letter is just great, and I think you are absolutely amazing for standing by your WW this way.

Just don't have any expectations of her reaction, which will range from indifference to anger. You are giving her your truth and asking her to stick around for what she says was lacking in the M to begin with, so I do not think it is too pleading.

I hope she is there when you come home...I really do!

You need to continue the war on this A. She is not strong enough to end it, and the continuation of it is going to drive you mad! I know you have exposed, your children know, his great role-model of a mother (barf) knows...we need to help you come up with an alternate plan. Is your state an AOA state? Can you talk to the Harleys and see if Plan B is around the corner?

I think he is the weakest link, because he is a loser and cannot support her "in the manor in which she is accustomed." I would love to see that email that he wrote back to you...it may give us an idea of where to put pressure on him. That is why I suggested Plan B....I think it would end the A quicker than anything else would. I dunno...just IMHO.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/07/08 11:43 PM
Thanks LaLa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

His email response...it makes me sick. I'll look for it, it's not on this computer.

No AoA here...we're too "advanced" out here in the west... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I have NO expectation that she will be there, so my grasp of reality is firm...trying to stay one step ahead of denial...

She led OM to believe early on that his "inability to support her in the manner to which he has become accustomed" was not an issue...they were so "in looove"... (why is there no emoticon for puking??)

His behavior in the following months/year has been clearly non-committal, although he professes to continue to love her. Pretty easy from where he sits.

Focussing on OM has caused me much frustration b/c his (and his family's) failure to even comprehend social norms/morals is notably absent.

Trying to focus on WW, but I'm afraid that letters like the above might just put too much pressure on her...hard to tell how much is too much, ya know?
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/08/08 12:39 AM
Yeah-I feel ya! Especially when we are (were) in the fog...icey reception at best!

That's why I say he is the weakest link. He will not give her what she wants if she leaves you. Maybe you should let her go...how is she being about that? Does she expect you to move out if it goes that route?

If it's any consolation, my OM was a POS music person (no offense to musicians-I am one!) and had not a pot to pi$$ in...I know where her silly head is. If you can hang in there, it will die!! The key is to get them apart for long enough. That's what I want to help you accomplish!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/08/08 02:15 AM
Hers is more of a raging inferno than a fog... here is her response to my last letter:

Quote
L2F,

I am sorry you miss me. I really don't know why. I have told you for months that I don't want to be married to you any more. That you continue to absolutely ignore me, even after I hand you papers, is incomprehensible to me.
I will not be staying here with you. If you were not working somewhere else during the week, we would each have a home here and when you were spending time with the kids, you would be at yours and I would be at mine. I wouldn't be going to your place with them.

As far as sitting at a table letting everyone we know share their opinions, they have not walked a mile in my shoes and can only formulate opinions based on the mask they were allowed to see. Those opinions don't mean much to me.

I am sorry it offends you that OMM continues to be my friend whether she agrees with what I am doing, or not. In my opinion, that is what a friend is supposed to do. If someone cuts you off because they don't like what you are doing, what kind of friend are they? I have NEVER judged people that way.

I spoke to MC at length about whether or not to tell the kids where I am. She recommended against it. They can always call me.

You married your first wife for life, too... You can't force or bully me into staying with you because that is what YOU want. That is what I feel you are trying to do. You ABSOLUTELY disregard everything that I say. What I want matters, too.


I'm just so tired of this...does anyone have any inputs?

I just can't be objective after this body slam...
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/08/08 04:34 AM
Hey L2F,

I don't really know what to say...

My gut instinct after reading this last letter from Mrs. L2F leads me to think that you should give the Harleys another call then contact your Lawyer and try to get the 'best' deal that you can as far as protecting yourslef, your kids, and your financial assets.

Mrs. L2F is correct in that you can't MAKE her do anything... unfortunately, she is not allowing you an opportunity to even show her that you are changing.

The sad part in all of this is that she is willing to throw away the love of her own children for her own "happiness" when later in life, her "happiness" is going to seem very empty when her children will no longer speak to her.

L2F, YOU will be OK through all of this... and by no means am I suggesting or recommending that you throw in the towel here... I'm here to support you with whatever decision you make... I just don't have any personal experience with a walk-away-wife, so I'm at a loss as to what to say to you...

My prayers are with you and Mrs. L2F and your children...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/08/08 05:52 AM
Thanks for that RIF.

No, I can't make her do anything--don't want to. I want her to WANT to act differently, but that's a pipe dream.

She clearly let HER love bank balance fall too low long ago and it was "too late" by the time I realized.

I really DO know that I'LL be ok, i'm so very sad for my children. They are so truly amazing-each in their own way. I know very well what it's like to be a child of divorce, and it will suck, big-time. My job over the last coupla years has been to try to "shield" them from all this, and it's crushing to realize I can't.

On the bright side, had a great victory today! My DS has been wanting a dog for YEARS. He's so very good with animals but WW had some experience in her past w/ dogs and didn't want one. WW had promised he'd get one, but always found excuses. Since I was gone so much, I let her make the decision. In retrospect, I let her make WAY too many decisions for us all...look where it got us.

She finally acquiesed shortly before her A started, but the dog was a nightmare. It was a lab mix from the local pound that instead of being an advertised 9 months old, was probably only 3. It grew into a horse and was totally unwieldy or trainable. It ended up biting her and went back to the pound. Turns out they ended up putting it down b/c it was so unwieldy.

Since then she's always been saying that she's "not ready" for another dog, but would never give a timeline for when she WOULD be ready. Anyway, after steady gentle pressure from DS (and some frank "this is about HIM, not YOU" discussions from me), she again finally gave in and my son is now the proud owner of a 3 yr old black lab/husky mix.

He's a total sweetheart!!! Housebroken, doesn't bark, and has in the span of an afternoon become DS's absolute best buddy. It brings tears to my eyes to see him so happy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

At least we won that battle...
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/08/08 07:01 AM
I'm so sorry, L2F. That letter was ruthless, but that's what waywards are most of the time. Selfish, cold and ruthless.

I agree with RIF. Talk to your L and get things set up and go Plan B. In essence, you are almost there except for the nasty emails and occasional passing as you are coming and she is going. But, my question is, if she wants a D so bad, why hasn't she filed? I know she threw papers at you a while ago and told you to fill them out or something, but she has yet to get a L and file.

Does she want you to leave or is she planning to leave the family home? She is leaving the children unattended to go "do her thing" without even telling them where she is going, so there is a strong case for you to gain custody if you can make other arrangements on your job. Is there any way you can work closer to home so that you can be home with your kids in the evening? I know it's a long drive, but even if you could arrange to have them say T&TH nights and then weekends, at least they wouldn't have to be with just her all week. I feel so bad for them. You could leave Monday morning, stay the night and then return T afternoon, leave W morning and return TH afernoon. Something like that...? If you could get something closer it would be ideal. But talk to your L and get things set up.

You will be in my prayers tonight...my heart goes out to you and your children!

(((((L2F)))))
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/08/08 05:05 PM
I like your idea of working my schedule to spend more time at home...I'm on it.

I can't change my job situation. It is what it is.

She doesn't leave the children unattended...either I'm there on the weekends or the kids are at friend's homes when I'm gone. So at least to that extent she's not irresponsible--just hurtful.

Her long term "plan" is not clear, but she alluded to it in her letter. It seems she thinks she'll be in the home and I'll have my own...kind of like the temporary set up we have now.

That's why I really do like your idea to spend a couple of weeknights at home.

Had a crappy night. Sent this letter this morning.

Quote
My dearest WW,

It hurts me that you don’t understand why I miss you.
I miss you because I love you.
I miss you because we’ve built a life together
I miss you because we’ve always been there for each other
I miss you because together we are more than we are apart

Your feelings aside, we are married, I am your husband, you are my wife, we are our children’s parents.

I vehemently disagree with former MC.

While a good individual counselor, I think she has totally missed the boat where our family is concerned.

I have no clue what good she thinks your keeping our children in the dark can bring.

In all honesty, I think it’s emotionally abusive to make them co-conspirators in your dirty little secret.

Why don’t you ask DS how he feels about not knowing where you are?

You don’t really need to, do you? You already heard how he felt in children's counselor's office.

They know basically where you’re going, but not really knowing, not having you talk with them about it, still makes it a barrier to honesty.

Your silence has everything to do with protecting you, not them.

It has to do with your desire to avoid the pain of their knowing that you’re doing something they rightfully find hurtful and wrong.

It does NOT protect their feelings.

It does NOT protect them from the feelings of doubt about their mother.

How is that in their best interest??

They want to know that their mother can be trusted.

But right now she can’t

They want to know that their mother isn’t doing something distasteful

But right now she is.

So to me it appears that you don’t want to talk about it because the truth is ugly and it will make you look bad.

They don’t understand how you can “pal around” with an unemployed loser, or his 60+ yr old mother.

What you’re doing hurts them, embarrasses them, and makes them feel that they are of lesser importance to you than they should be.

They love you, but you are creating an environment of deceit and distrust that in my opinion will lead to an emotionally fragile relationship with them as they continue to grow older and need a better role model and confidante.

Most importantly, WW, it is destroying their trust in YOU.

Once that’s gone, and it damn near is, it will be incredibly hard to rebuild.

How can they come to you with their problems/questions when you show yourself to be so untrustworthy?

My urging you to be honest with them has nothing to do with my wanting you to feel bad; rather it has everything to do with their feelings and the health of your current and future relationship with them.

Don’t mistake your “telling them” with “talking about it with them”. “Telling them” is merely an announcement of your actions, while “talking with them” is having an open dialog.

They deserve to be part of the discussion.

They deserve to be heard.

They both expressed their opinions in their counselor's office but you did NOT respond.

How do you think it makes them feel?

They tell their mother how she’s hurting them and she’s silent?

You say that I’m not listening to you…what about how they feel about your ignoring them???

They are YOUR CHILDREN, for God’s sake!

“Handing me papers” doesn’t end the marriage.

How is your handing me papers any different from my finding out that you’d been sleeping with some low life scum for months behind my back?

How is your handing me papers any different from your not sleeping with me for years?

If you want to get divorced, have me served.

I will get a lawyer

We will end up in court

That’s really a shame.

I will not “agree” to destroy this family

That’s all on you

It does not need to happen this way. Like in “A Christmas Carol”, you can choose to change the course of our future.

Love, L2F

Will probably be seen as LBing, but I really don't care.

Will arrange to see L again and start rearranging my schedule to spend more time at home.
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/08/08 05:24 PM
Sorry-I know it's LB-ing in there a little, too, but I LOVE IT!!!! I love it because it says everything you need to say. Because it addresses the children very specifically, and I know that is the part that really might break through the fog. Doubt it, but MAYBE!! And also because it is strong, not weak and needy, yanno.

I'm glad you liked my idea-I hope you can work it out. Maybe if she does go her own way (and I pray that doesn't happen), you can find a place (with custody of the children!) that is closer to your work. She can do the driving to come see them, if it doesn't interrupt the shameful nature of her current life too much, that is! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Sorry! I'm in a MOOD today! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: ILA Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 01:22 AM
L2F, just caught up on your thread for the first time. I must say I see so many similarities b/w you and I (and our WW's) that I couldn't stop reading.

I'm only 2 months in from D-day where you've been at this for an eternity. God bless your strength and resolve!! I hope I have as much.

But man, I could insert my WW's words into almost everything you've posted. And, some of the letters you've sent, emails you've sent, etc......those could be MY words too. We are eerily similar!

I also have WW's threats of D. No papers, but she threatens to serve me when she gets upset. Then she says what are WE going to do. She hasn't had the guts to take the necessary steps and doesn't want to spend $$ on lawyer or a long battle either (nor do I). I do get the feeling that she will eventually file though....just trying to wait it out, plan A, and hope she wakes up in the meantime.....similar to you.

I feel like plan B for me will be when she files papers (which I got her to push back 2 months now.....that's if she was really serious in the first place). But, like you, plan A for me is hard. I'm working on ME and doing my best to not LB but it happens occassionally. WW hasn't lived at home since this started so plan A is difficult. When we talk I get the same B.S. said to me that you've just heard....nearly word for word.

Today I contacted a L and Monday will consult with another. I'm trying to get my ducks in a row financially and legally if we have to go the D route. Sounds like you're there too. But, I don't plan on triggering anything as long as I can wait this out. Seeing how you've done it is inspirational to me, that's for sure.

I too, get a lot of pressure from some on MB to be more forceufl and stand up to this A/lack of respect. But, like you, my WW seems like she'll only run away for good if I do too much. My WW is cake eating too, no doubt.....but as much as we love them I don't know if we have too much alternative right now if we want to give the M's a chance.

Good thing you have is the kids (not suggesting them as a bargaining chip of course) but it still binds you together. Also, she is still living at home, even though elusively. Also sounds like your OM might be more of a schmuck than the one my WW is with....so maybe he'll blow it eventually.

I wish I had more answers or suggestions for ya. Just wanted to know how similar I feel in my situation....like I said....not only b/w the way you and I act/react/communicate, but also with just how similar our WW's stance/comments/fog/ambivolence seems to be.

I'll definitely keep following your thread and chiming in with anything I come up with. Best of luck my man. You are a true hero in many ways. Keep up the good work.

- ILA
Posted By: johnstwin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 05:54 AM
Hi L2F

Here's my take on the underlying message in your WW's response to you.

"Because you are making me feel guilty, I'm going to say the most hurtful things I can to get you to stop.

I will only listen to people who agree with me or who encourage my choices. Every one else I will label as judgmental.

Because I'm being selfish-I will accuse you of being selfish and a bully.

It's really only about what I want."

That's what I read between the lines.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 08:15 AM


LaLa, love your mood!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Don't want to change kid's school situation...so they can't come live w/ me.

In almost a year I will be deployed anyway...making any living arrangement/agreement in a dissolution that much trickier.

Quote
...she is still living at home, even though elusively


Well put, ILA.

Sorry you are experiencing the same thing. If I did NOT have kids, I don't think I'd still be here, to be honest. My kids are what gives me the power to continue when I'm tempted to throw in the towel.

I really do think OM blew it long ago...he proved untrustworthy...go figure <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Even if he hadn't, he doesn't have the patience or committment to deal with her full-time anyway.

Perhaps it IS time for plan B.

Thanks for piping up and the moral support, ILA..
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 08:19 AM
JT...wow...

That's exactly what she's saying.

So what possible response is there besides "want a cookie?"

How about our wonderful weather, eh??
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 11:12 AM
Good Letter L2F.

However, I don't think it will make much of a dent in her thinking.

Have you exposed the A to the FRG and the base? I'm just thinking aloud here and exposure to her "peers" may just shame her enough to reconsider her actions. Obviously, exposing to her children wasn't enough.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 04:02 PM
Hey RIF.

No FRG to speak of. She derives no support whatsoever from the military community, and has nothing to do with any of our old friends and acquaintences.

She's pretty much ditched all of her "old life". "Shaming" her at this point I feel would only be retribution rather than constructive. As JT pointed out, her defense mechanisim is so well-developed that she'd only get angry...

She didn't stay this w/e, as you can probably gather.

Heavy snow shut down the primary route to OM's/OMM's town so she would have had to drive an additional 3+ hours to get there. That's how "dedicated" she is either to getting away from me, or getting to him/her.

I can feel that hot knife twisting.
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 04:13 PM
Hey L2F,

Do you have another appointment set up with the Harleys?

I'm really at a loss as to what to think. It blows my mind that a W would throw away her family and just walk away like this...

I'm praying for you guys.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 04:43 PM
Spending a quiet morning reading some other great threads...

I am just so impressed by the dedication and strength of this band of BSs and FWSs.

MB rocks!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 05:29 PM
RIF, we cross-posted...

It does blow the mind.

She rated me a 9 as a husband (out of 10, not 100 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) at the marriage boot camp last summer--higher than anyone else did, btw. Yet I'm not worth being married to...WTF!

I'm wondering if I'm being too "agressive" with my letters, but not having her here to talk to is difficult. She "flees" because it's too "difficult" to face me, I'm thinking...

I can continue to Plan A but throttle back on the judgmental tone, I guess. That's probably what she's avoiding.

What if she just needs a break from me? That I can understand. What if she's no longer in the A but driving down the D road due to momentum?

The military life is sure tough on families. The only way I was able to bear the separations was knowing (or thinking, at any rate) that my wife was my rock back at home...

Looking forward to a good day w/ DS/DD and new dog!

L2F
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 07:00 PM
I was so bummed when I read about your upcoming deployment! RIF is deployed, and he was able to recover his M, though, so I would move as quickly as I could if I were you. The first thing is breaking up the A (which is still going on). Can you talk to the Harley's and see what they think? You will not be able to do anything else besides Plan A from a distance until this happens.

Quote
The military life is sure tough on families. The only way I was able to bear the separations was knowing (or thinking, at any rate) that my wife was my rock back at home...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

I know, L2F...I hope you can get things back on solid ground before you leave!
Posted By: ILA Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 07:57 PM
Quote
That's exactly what she's saying.

So what possible response is there besides "want a cookie?"

That's funny!

No, I agree completely though. My WW responds nearly word for word like that when I get too close or when she gets frustrated that I won't give up. It's the most selfish act imaginable and as long as we keep trying, we will keep getting some of these outbursts.....until hopefully one day....

I've written the same letter a couple of times already and they did nothing for me (at least outwardly). WW mentioned 1 or 2 lines from one of them, but that's b/c she found something she could twist in her favor. I keep trusting that all of that gets pur in the back of her mind though and someday it will all pay off.
Posted By: johnstwin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/09/08 11:17 PM
Hey L2F-

I didn't realize we were on the same side of the mountains!
Where are you-in general location?

Since you are military, I'm thinking either down in Pierce County, up on Whidbey or maybe in my old home town, Everett. I'm in the Skagit Valley now.

Speaking of the weather, I was glad to see it would be in the 40's today. Wooh. A heatwave. My OS couldn't get home this week-end because of those pesky mountain passes. He's a Cougar-ROTC scholarship. He will be fourth generation military.

Waywards are capable of anything. Mine threw away his ministry, his integrity and his family for his AP. He is now "someone different" as my DD22 puts it. He is someone who I have never known and I've known him for 25 years.

Hang in there-
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/10/08 03:16 AM
Hey JT... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I used to be stationed at Whidbey where my family is, now I work somewhere that requires a ferry to get to/from.

Quote
He is someone who I have never known and I've known him for 25 years.


ain't that the truth.

It's truly bizarre that some people can go down a path so clearly marked as "don't go here" without realizing it...then visciously defend their choice to do so.

My parents had simo A's when I was very small. His resulted in a marriage that lasted until he died some 30+ years later. She never remarried.

As I was growing up, my mom did the same kind of "finding myself" [email]cr@p[/email] my WW is now doing. After parent's D there was a parade of questionable characters that came into and out of her/our life. Perhaps b/c I saw it as a child I recognize it for what it is.

WW's midwestern upbringing was significantly more conservative, so what she's now doing is almost like a teenager "gaining their freedom", where I just see it as a cross between a MLC and teenage acting out. This makes it difficult for me to take her bulls#it seriously.

OMM is this aging new-agey type who's into colon cleanses, organic food and God knows what else. It's taking all the strength I've got to keep from telling her that it's not her colon that needs refreshing...

Went to my caucus today...interesting process. I had more meaningful and honest interaction with total strangers today than I've had w/ my WW in years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Going to have nice evening w/ DD playing a board game and then watching a movie while DS enjoys having a couple of his friends at a sleepover.

L2F
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/10/08 05:17 AM
Quote
OMM is this aging new-agey type who's into colon cleanses, organic food and God knows what else. It's taking all the strength I've got to keep from telling her that it's not her colon that needs refreshing...

OMG, I know this sitch isn't funny, but I was LMAO on this comment...classic...you are a very cool guy, L2F!!!

She's going to feel like a FOOL when this is over. I know I sure do!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/10/08 06:54 AM
Thanks for that LaLa... Don't worry, that part of this thing is HILARIOUS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for reminding me...your laugh was contagious

Just watched Monsters Inc w/ DD...we had a GREAT time together.

DS had a great day w/ his new dog and friends.

...life IS good... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Want2Stay Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/10/08 06:31 PM
L2F,

Quote
Thanks for that LaLa... Don't worry, that part of this thing is HILARIOUS!

Thanks for reminding me...your laugh was contagious

Just watched Monsters Inc w/ DD...we had a GREAT time together.

DS had a great day w/ his new dog and friends.

...life IS good...

I'm Want2Stay, LaLa's DH. That is a great attitude. You must reach a point where you realize that so much of this outcome is out of your control. There's only so much you can do now to convice your DW to change her choices before it's too late. If she chooses to throw her life away for this guru loser there isn't much you can do to stop her. Spend time enjoying the other apects of your life before your upcoming deployment. Glad you had a good day with the kids. It's a great way to distract yourself and at the same time reinforces the bond you share with them. Hang in there!

Want2Stay
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/10/08 06:55 PM
Hey W2S!

Yeah, trying my darndest to "enjoy life"... The biggest roadblock to that is how this is affecting our kids

I strongly believe that the most important thing we will be remembered for after we're gone is what kind of person we were and what kind of children we raised...

The "person" I am is also a loving and committed husband--one that rides out the storm knowing that landfall will come eventually...
Posted By: johnstwin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/11/08 12:22 AM
Hi L2F-

I know where you are, having spent many of my childhood summers over on the pennisula. My sister teaches over on the "island" but lives on the mainland side so I do get over to visit when I can.

It seems that the weather has conspired to keep your WW from getting over the passes to visit the OM. Interesting...

Hang in there-
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/13/08 01:49 AM
Hi JT,

Where does your sister teach? Wonder if she knows my kids...

I wish that the wx had kept her here...instead she chose to drive around...so strong was her need to flee.

Turns out her sustained weight loss is thyroid-related. She used to be a size 10-ish, and is now a 2 and still losing weight.

Could be menopausal, could be stress-related.

Stress... go figure... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'm very concerned about her health and well-being but the obvious solution to me isn't going to register on her radar.

Any "experienced" women out there w/ any similar experiences during the "change"?

We are so very much different creatures, men and women, but vive la difference!!!

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/13/08 05:31 AM
Hey all...

I'm really thinking that the affair is over...

Please help me transition back to a kick-a$$ plan A!

You've seen my tendency towards being judgmental and critical of WW's actions.

What to do now?

I want to show her that D doesn't need to happen, yet that's where her energy is...

I'm still away during the week

she still leaves when I come home

She still hasn't "filed"

I need some re-adjustment!!!

L2F
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/13/08 06:50 AM
Hey L2F!

I know how frustrating it is to give and give and get nothing in return...

I think that spending time with your kids when you can and showing Mrs. L2F that the changes you're making are REAL, is your best bet here...

It takes time for a WS/FWS to start believing that you ARE making the changes for real... I know that Mrs. RIF thought that I was 'manipulating' her by my plan-A actions... but over time, my consistent actions showed her that the changes were "for real"...

You can do this! You're kids are there to help you and I know that you're up for the challenge!!!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: johnstwin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/13/08 07:15 AM
Hi L2F-

My big sis' teaches at Wilkes on Bainbridge but she lives in Poulsbo. It's a different direction than the Navy. But, it's a small area.

Hang in there. Your WW may continue to spew the same script as the other waywards (talking D like it's a done deal-etc) but it's not over until it's over. And with God, even then things aren't over.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/14/08 01:10 AM
Thanks RIF/JT,

It may be a small area but I don't think I know anyone on Bainbridge. Oh well.

Really looking for some ideas here, folks...

Pls look at previous page re WW's medical issue and give thoughts.

To sum up....

Affair not so much active in the traditional sense...mainly b/c I think I'm realizing that WW isn't currently capable of having a fulfilling relationship w/ ANYONE at this point (and clearly for many years before that)

She's now focusing on D and her own health issues.

She made a comment last night after finding out during a visit to the vet yesterday that the dog turned out to be younger than we were told..."oh great, the dog's going to be around for frickin' ever!" As though she just sees it as just another responsibility.

A plan B is largely irrelevant b/c I've been gone for so much over the last 17 years that she's so comfortable carrying on w/out me.

Help me not "push", yet not be indifferent...

Looking for Plan A ideas please!!!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/14/08 01:45 AM
L2F,

On page six...you asked for us to help you do a kick-tushie Plan A (sure looses it's impact when I hedge the word, doesn't it?)...kind of gives me the image of karate with limp wrists.

Are you ready for it? Really ready?

My advice is to go read your posts on MB...the ones on your thread and the ones to others...read them, L2F. Get your center back. Your permission to DJ, criticize, even jokingly, brought WW's stuff back into your stuff...and you had it separated...do so again.

Your WW is still in a wayward state of mind...which means there's still the lack of respect, resentment and entitlement. Stop pointing those out to yourself and to her. Look at your own.

As for the thyroid...I can't help. I'm thinking more about how I could get my thyroid to do that to me.

Resentment is like a hormone though...wouldn't doubt that lack of and then too much of (rollercoaster) are at work...not the all...factors in it.

After you re-read your earlier posts...re-read the last few weeks...see your changes...where you are all over her stuff...and not respecting, not bringing reality, and not acting from love (which fills you up with love)...maybe you can find on the previous page where you are mirroring her...find where you dodge your ownership...go to rewriting history a bit (feels better) and find your false payoff in it. It's old habits...you changed...pick them up again.

That's my kick-tushie Plan A...because you have been doing an awesome Plan A, IMO...I saw you thriving in it...

LA
Posted By: WhoMe Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/14/08 03:31 PM
Hi L2F,

Quote
Pls look at previous page re WW's medical issue and give thoughts.



Sorry, no help here, but from what I experienced and have been told by friends and family, well, weight loss doesn't usually accompany MP. For me it was just the opposite ... I have always been pretty small and really had a couple of years where it was a struggle to stay that way.

Has she seen the Dr about the weight loss? Might be something else, something regarding her health that she hasn't shared with you that is causing her stress.

Glad to hear that the A is over. Hang in there, the getting to recover is a challenge I CAN relate to since my FWH's A was already dead and about to be buried by D-day.

Best,

Who
Posted By: johnstwin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/14/08 06:43 PM
L2F-

Has your WW gone to the Dr yet?

Rapid weight loss could be a sign of diabetes, thyroid issues, or even some types of leukemia. Also, it can also be caused by stress and/or depression.

A blood test can rule out those serious ones. Hopefully it's just stress related.

I'll be heading to my sister's sometime next month. I'll be thinking of you.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/16/08 05:58 PM
LA, as always, your post is both simple, yet "dense".

I've been watching EOTS's thread and got sucked in. There was so much "action" there due to the "newness" of his sitch and his desire to fix things.

So much of the advice he's been getting is focused on peripheral things--legal, financial, attacks on OM, etc., that I feel the core of the matter--plan A--has been overshadowed.

In looking at my own state of mind and posts with the help of your perspective, I see I am naturally drawn to doing the same thing.

The world of the BS is like a minefield. Some look for a map to navigate through...others stop to try and dig up and disable each mine...sometimes I do both.

Quote
Your WW is still in a wayward state of mind...which means there's still the lack of respect, resentment and entitlement. Stop pointing those out to yourself and to her. Look at your own


Sometimes (ok, often) I feel the need to have others pile on and say "yeah, what she's doing is WRONG! You are fighting the good fight!" etc.

It's the fervor of knowing I'm fighting something fundamentally evil and destructive that helps me pick myself up each day and begin anew...


Quote
Get your center back. Your permission to DJ, criticize, even jokingly, brought WW's stuff back into your stuff...and you had it separated...do so again.


Thanks for that...

I came back home for Valentines day and baked her a heart-shaped cake and left a beautiful vase of roses and lilies for her...she was very appreciative.

That night she called me and thanked me again, but then broke down and said that it was bittersweet...that she'd felt so unappreciated for years.

Instead of defending myself, which was my instinctual response, I didn't tell her she was wrong, I didn't disagree...instead I apologized for my actions that lead to her feelings.

Was she rewriting history? Perhaps, but right then I felt that wasn't important. It was her reality right then, and what I wanted her to know, above all else, was that I DO appreciate her, no matter what the past held, RIGHT NOW, I appreciate and love her above all else.

I've removed "her story" from my signature. That was my take on "her stuff"...

Thanks LA

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/16/08 06:08 PM
Hey Who (I like saying that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />) and JT,

She's seeing a naturopath and has been diagnosed as Hyperthyroid. I have reservations about this form of "medicine", but am trying not to DJ.

In my book, so much of it is quackery, and I'd be more apt to ascribe her affliction to a combination of extreme stress, guilt and alcohol use...

Yes this is her stuff, but as her husband and (I thought) life partner, I can't help but be concerned and want to "help"...I'm treading lightly.

Getting to recovery has just one small roadblock...it's called Divorce... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again,

L2F
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/16/08 09:51 PM
Quote
That night she called me and thanked me again, but then broke down and said that it was bittersweet...that she'd felt so unappreciated for years.

Instead of defending myself, which was my instinctual response, I didn't tell her she was wrong, I didn't disagree...instead I apologized for my actions that lead to her feelings.

Was she rewriting history? Perhaps, but right then I felt that wasn't important. It was her reality right then, and what I wanted her to know, above all else, was that I DO appreciate her, no matter what the past held, RIGHT NOW, I appreciate and love her above all else.

L2F, this is righteous, buddy. Absolutely fantastic!! Probably one of the best examples of a Plan A action that I've seen. I haven't been here long, but I was amazed. It will haunt her until she comes back to you, and then when/if she does come back, it will be a humbling reminder to her of the power of your love. It will be that moment which will stand as your lighthouse. The more of these you can pull off, the better chance you will have with her. Shine bright, L2F...so inspiring!!!!!!
Posted By: ILA Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/17/08 02:29 AM
Funny how our WW's are way too much alike, man. I was trying to keep from going over the top for V-day. We had a tax appt. the day before and that was my only chance to see WW so I got her some of her favorite flowers, had MADE her a photo calendar with my favorite pictures of us for each month, and MADE a v-day card. (these are all things that she appreciates..."don't buy me something...put some effort into it...that's what I want") I've recently found "homemade" things from our relationship that she had kept and filed away so I know this is important to her.
Sounds like you were taking the same approach....show some heartfelt effort to show her how much she means to you, right?

Well, my WW didn't want to even accept my gifts, saying it "doesn't help our situation" and "why are you doing this". I convinced her to take them anyway b/c I only did it b/c I care for her and want to make her feel good....that I hoped she could just accept it for what it is and allow herself to appreciate it just a bit....nothing more than a gift from someone who loves and cares about her......sound familiar?

Well, she reluctantly took it, gave me a hug and said she didn't want to see me "unhappy". Later that night I received a Voicemail from her before she went to sleep saying it was "very sweet" and she "appreciated the kind gesture" but she felt it was "misdirected" and "wasted effort on her". Huh, how about that L2F ?? :P

I know we are plan A'ing and doing our best....I guess we just keep doing our thing until they wake up, right? Takes a lot of strenght to look beyond all of the defiance, but if we ever beat this thing I've got to think it's a matter of allowing WW to wake up on her own, b/c I don't know if we can force it to happen in our cases. Maybe we're too soft, too much of a pushover...I don't know? Some people on MB say yes, some say no. But it "feels" like we're doing the proper things to me, don't ya think?

I love hearing feedback from FWS's to see if this actually works or if this just shows we are weak and WW doesn't gain any respect for us like this ???
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/19/08 07:23 AM
Hey all, been a busy weekend...

LaLa, thanks as always for dropping by, and I sure do appreciate the words of encouragement.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It WAS good, and the best part is that it was pure loving detachment. I had no expectations, and it was pure Plan A.

SO... WW has a skiing weekend w/ the kids while I dog sat our new pooch.

They came back a day earlier than I expected so I was still in the house and not planning to leave...due to 3 day weekend.

Made a great dinner for W and kids--chicken florentine--not bad if I say so myself, and the kids and I sat down and ate while WW paced like a caged animal.

She was wondering what "we were going to do", referring to the fact that I was there and not leaving. I simply said I'd be staying, and she was welcome to as well.

It wasn't a challenge or a threat, merely a statement of fact...

She paced for a good 30 min before announcing she "didn't feel comfortable and was going to leave." DS said "you mean you WANT to leave"... Snap!

I suggest it'd be safer and smarter of her to stay after a long day on the slopes and a long drive and offer to make up the bed in the playroom for her.

She declines and "just has to leave". I say OK, be careful, and let it go. I felt she expected more...

The kids shrug it off like "there goes mom again... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> " ...no drama...

She makes a deal of getting her things and finally leaves.

About 30 min later she calls me and says's she's truly tired and will be coming back...

I say great and make up the bed (mostly b/c there was truly a grey area re expectations of who was going to sleep where and in this particular case, I felt it was the right thing to do---NOT sucking up, mind you).

Anyway, she comes back, spends some time w/ the kids and trundles off to bed.

About 30 min after that, she comes back in after the kids are in bed and announces to me that she "can't sleep" and has to leave... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Make up your frickin' mind, already!!!

Asks me if I want to tell the kids, or should she...

No brainer, I say, "you tell them. It's your decision, and they should hear it from you"... Again, no judgment, no criticism, merely a statement of what my expectation is of her as a parent and adult...

I'm starting to get the hang of this boundary thing... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

...more to follow...
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/19/08 07:44 AM
We (the kids and I) had a great day today, got outside for most of the day and it was REALLY nice!!!

WW calls around 3pm leaving a message on my VM asking if I could stay an extra night w/ the kids b/c she wants to "Go see OM to tell him she doesn't want to talk to him anymore"...and she "wants some closure"...

I call back and reach HER VM and say that I understand, but that I thought that she'd wasted enough emotional energy on someone who doesn't deserve your time and a letter would serve the same purpose w/out taking 6 HOURS of driving. (!!!)

She finally calls me back and we talk briefly. She thanks me for my input and that she'll consider whether or not she will actually see him (she'll be staing w/ OMM for the night).

I ask her what her expectations are of this "closure", and if she'd visualized exactly what would constitute a "success". She hadn't really thought about it, but that it was something she felt she needed to do "for her", and that she was "finally sticking up for herself".

She'd been "treated badly", and there were "some things he needed to hear"...

A good sentiment, that, but this is where I calmly made clear my feelings on the subject, which was "WW, I truly understand that you feel it is important to do so, but I think you're putting too much importance on what the wrong person thinks or feels. He's already proven that he doesn't care about you, me, or our family, so whether or not he "gets it" is irrelevant and is disrespectful to me and your family."

I closed with "I respectfully urge you to reconsider your "need" to do something that is clearly driven by your emotions, and think about the rest of us."

Perhaps I should have jumped for joy and just shut the f#@K up, and I'm waiting for some of you to say so...but bottom line, I really had to stick up for ME!!!

Anyway...I'll find out tomorrow exactly what went down...should be interesting.

I'm sure if she did seek some "closure", it was to "tell him off"...but he's such a self-centered jerk it'll be just that much more frustrating to WW...gotta love it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

No matter what...I'm sleeping well tonight!

Sweet dreams, all

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/19/08 07:52 AM
Hey ILA... just read your post and yup, btdt...

Don't forget the "stick" part of plan A as well...

Just read Spike's story and, I've gotta say, I felt that many of his advisors could have been talking to me...

See what you think... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Quote
I love hearing feedback from FWS's to see if this actually works or if this just shows we are weak and WW doesn't gain any respect for us like this ???


I know what you mean...

What I realized about myself, however, when I first started doing that "early" on ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />), was that it was in some way not unlike my waiting for WW to act, so I'd know how to react... kinda backwards.

I'm getting much better at being the right guy, and not worrying what she thinks...I've got no control over that, and neither do you.

Bottom line, I wake up w/ ME every morning, and I need to make sure that I like who's looking back at me from the mirror...

Life is good, my man, with her or without her...and THAT sentiment will set you free!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/19/08 10:11 AM
Hey L2F!

I'm right in the middle of my left-seat/right-seat ride... so I haven't been around that much... I start my "new job" at the end of next week... fun, fun!

You're doing GREAT!!! Man, you are the Plan-A king!!! Keep it up!

I'm praying for you guys...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/19/08 06:08 PM
WOW, L2F...just WOW!!!

This is GREAT news! And you handled it beautifully! Kepp showing her the way back home while being firm in your resolve. That is the KEY!!!! You cannot sacrafice yourself to her just to get her back, yanno. You do that and things will actually get WORSE after WD is over...trust me, I know. And now into recovery, W2S still struggles with so much of what I did. If I wasn't on board 150% he'd be gone. Even a year after NC. Dr. Harley himself says that after NC and WD, the biggest threat to the M is the BS. All these months of Plan A and being abused by your WW WILL come back to bite you...she better be in the driver's seat at that point, and the only way to insure that (as much as possible) is to stand tall and firm and be confident with your boundaries from the beginning.

Hmmmm...wonder what OM did....maybe one too many enemas????

That's not right, Lord I apologize.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/19/08 08:55 PM
Quote
Hmmmm...wonder what OM did....maybe one too many enemas????


ROFLMAO!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/20/08 02:41 AM
Seriously...

Even though she's not doing NC the MB way (at least not yet), she still is giving him the "heave ho"...

What I WANT to say is something along the lines of..

"So, you're mad at him because he let you down? Because he lied to you? Because he was disrespectful to you? Give me a break! You are a liar and a cheat who has had no respect for your husband and children and you get your undies in a bunch because this low-life scum does the same to you? Excuse me while I have a HUGE laugh at your expense!!!"

...that was fun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />...

Now folks, please help me capitalize on my good fortune and NOT MESS THIS HUGE OPPORTUNITY UP!!!

Do I let her bring up what transpired?

How to react??

Do I maintain indifference?

She has no idea how close I was to a completely black Plan B before she went and did this, so my patience is pretty much shot...

I'm at my work location for the remainder of the week so all contact w/ her will be by phone or email...

Thoughts and suggestions, Please!!!

L2F
Posted By: believer Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/20/08 03:00 AM
A six hour drive to go no contact and have "closure" is never going to work. Don't get your hopes up.

Sorry, but it isn't going to work. She will just get reeled back in.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/20/08 03:18 AM
Believer...thanks for the optimism... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Believe me, I've read too many threads w/ the subject "NC broken...AGAIN" to be staking my paycheck on this...yet.

What I'm looking for are some stategies to help guide this towards something more real, rather than push her away inadvertantly at this crucial crossroads...
Posted By: believer Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/20/08 03:35 AM
Well, the affair is overdue to die, so you can probably count on that. Other than that, just continue what you are doing. Don't get angry or tell her you told her so.
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/20/08 03:41 AM
Well, if you can get her to stay at the house during the weekends, it would be easier! For now, if this is over, she must go through WD. Which means she'll be even MORE fun than she was before. I think you have reached a point of loving detachment that you can do nice things for her here and there, show her you care, but without falling all over her.

Don't push any R or A talks right now, but tell you her you are always there for her if she needs to talk about anything. Remind her that you are well aware of what has been going on, so if she needs someone to talk to, you're da man! Then prepare yourself in case she takes you up on it. Nod and be silent and let her vent. At the end, thank her for sharing with you (as you try not to actually bite your tongue completely off).

This stage is about showing her it is safe to be home. That you are not going to drive her crazy while she mourns (barf). Spend time with your kids- set things up to do as a family and ask her to come. If she doesn't, that's fine, just say "OK, but we'd sure like to have ya!" And then make SURE you go do it anyways without her. Loving detachment.

In a few weeks, if NC is maintained, (and that means his hag of a mother, too!!) you should be able to start working through some things that will have to happen...NC letter, counseling with the Harleys, reading and posting to this site (she already knows about it, after all!)...

You cannot force anything right now, though...just show her that you understand and will be there for her...
Posted By: ILA Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/20/08 05:36 AM
Quote
Bottom line, I wake up w/ ME every morning, and I need to make sure that I like who's looking back at me from the mirror...

Life is good, my man, with her or without her...and THAT sentiment will set you free! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And I've got to believe that is probably why you find yourself in your current position....with some solid hope finally. You've done things the right way and "found" yourself above all else. You deserve to have good things start to happen for you, L2F. Everything evens out in the end, one way or another......I think it's your turn!!
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/20/08 01:50 PM
Hey L2F,

You're getting some great advice... I agree with Believer and would caution you against getting your hopes up too much... What I mean is don't expect her to come running back to the family and starting right into rebuilding... this is a great thing, ending the A... but your Plan-A efforts are even MORE critical now.

Lala has some great advice... she's going to go through a withdrawal period, maybe she already has to some extent... but be prepared.

My advice it to crank up your Plan-A and show Mrs. L2F what a great H you really are! Hopefully, you'll be able to start spending some time together on the weekends now...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/20/08 04:27 PM
TJ! Hey RIF! How are you...are you staying safe? When do you think you may be able to get outa there and come home?
/TJ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/21/08 03:42 AM
Hey LaLa,

I started my year long tour in July of 2007, but I've extended for another year, so I won't go home for good until May/June 2009...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/21/08 04:47 AM
RIF... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Take care of yourself!

(((((((RIF)))))))
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/21/08 05:53 PM
Hey RIF, LaLa,

The military lifestyle is murderous on marriages...

It takes commitment on a level not easily understood by most "normal" people...

It also takes herculean efforts on the part of the deployed spouse to continue to meet, to the extent possible, those ENs of the spouse on the homefront that can be met in absentia... no mean feat

Still no word on how the "closure" went, and I'm unsure if I should ask.

On the pro side, it gives me a chance to "help" wrap it up and suggest a NC letter as a follow-up.

On the con side, I'd be getting into her stuff, and would need to bite my tongue (not my strong suit...) and not give her the "and just what exactly did you expect from the jerk?" speech...

Thoughts?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/21/08 07:02 PM
ILA,

Thanks for the words of faith...I'm hoping you're right!

I'll drop by "your place" today and see what's up...

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/22/08 04:15 AM
Got a call from WW's alcoholic M today...turns out WW borrowed HUGE amounts of money from her over the last few years and is now being killed by the high interest rates on her credit cards...

Am I correct in assuming that no matter what, I'll be held responsible for at least half of those debts, whether I knew about the charges or not?

This is just another example of the web of lies...

Man, I tell you what...I think anyone getting married should first polygraph their "beloved"...

Affairs can be just the tip of the iceberg of a dishonest soul... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/22/08 04:32 AM
Hey L2F!

How can you be responsible for your MIL's credit card debt when you had no knowledge of the "loan"?

I think that Mrs. L2F would have to settle this on her own...

So are you going to get home this weekend??? We've got a big Dog & Pony show this coming week, then I fly up to our HQ to start my new job...

Hope things are going well for you!!!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/22/08 03:28 PM
RIF, good to hear from you...

I heard you had some "big wigs" do an unplanned drive by yesterday...

As for debt, I'm just assuming they'd be looked at no differently by a divorce court than any other credit card debt she accrued during the marriage...community property and all...

Yes, she should settle it on her own...I'll have to think about the best way to approach this without it being a total f/u.

Bottom line, we were married during this time, and the money she borrowed was not used for the A...hmmmmm
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/23/08 09:37 AM
Hey L2F!

Our dog & pony show starts later this coming week... then I fly up to my new job! I've pretty much turned everything over and the new guy has signed the Hand Receipt and I didn't have to pay for a single thing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouldn't your MIL have to claim against the "bad debt" before it could be discussed??? Hopefully, your GREAT Plan-A will keep you from going to a D... then you can just repay the money w/o having to give the lawyers a cut!

Hope you're weekend is going well... Did Mrs. L2F stick around this weekend, or did she leave before you got home?

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 02:51 PM
RIF,

Well, WW did NOT stick around this weekend...in fact, sources close to OM (those who agree that his actions are unconscionable...and don't like WW either) say they're still seeing eachother...and did this weekend as well...

SO, not only is she continuing to lie (I should assume as much), but she went to great lengths to come up w/ an elaborate story last weekend to explain why she went to go see him. (Believer...you were right, of course)

As I'm driving home this Friday, I find out she's left the area (hours away)while my kids are at school without telling me...assuming I'd be home early.

When I ask her if she did, in fact, commit to NC w/ RatS#it, she says that due to my suggestions to her last weekend that she NOT contact him face to face to get her "closure", she instead wrote a letter, and that she was mad at ME for that, because it was not what SHE wanted to do... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Turns out the whole story was BS. I'm sure there was no letter, and she went to go see him this w/e like business as usual...

The lies are worse than the simple act of screwing another man.

I'm beginning to feel sheer hatred for her and her actions.

I want to go to a nuclear plan F/U

She's said she always felt she didn't "measure up"...kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's becoming harder and harder not to feel that by any standard, she is a total and complete loser as a wife, mother and person.

My love for her is becoming a dim and distant memory.

I really think I've delayed going to plan B WAY too long...

Any suggestions how to handle any interactions with her when she gets back?

- confront her w/ my knowledge that she saw him?
- let her know I know she lied?
- ignore her?

I'm truly stumped here...IDEAS???
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 03:35 PM
Hey L2F,

I'm sorry about the continued contact.

I really don't know what else you could do if you've exposed the A to everyone...

I'd suggest continuing with your Plan-A until you can talk with Jennifer again. Plan-B might be the thing to do especially if you're love is almost gone.

I'm praying for you L2F... hang in there!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 03:38 PM
L2F, regardless of what you decide to say when she comes back, I agree with you 100% that it is time for Plan B. She has no intention of ending her affair and has no motivation to do so. In the meantime, you have to deal with the fallout. If you continue to deal with it, you will grow to hate her, or even worse, suffer emotional and physical problems. Once you grow to hate her, and I see you heading that way FAST, it is almost impossible to turn that around. [those are Dr.Harleys words, not mine]

She is on a self destruct mission and it helps no one for you to go down with her.

I would work on getting all your ducks in a row for Plan B and going dark. Sorry you are in this fix, but I see a WW who is intent on having her cake and eating it too, at your expense.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 03:53 PM
Quote
Any suggestions how to handle any interactions with her when she gets back?


If you can contain your emotions - I'd suggest saying something simple to her when she returns.

for instance -

"I know you've made your choice. What happens next?"

She will ask you what you are talking about - my advise is to not tell her - instead just repeat the question

"What happens next?"

She will lie her [censored] off - just observe & nod and say "I see."

mood should be serious but calm, not angry

If she becomes angry - allow her to go there all by herself

you should be done with angry now -

plan B - get your ducks lines up - plan B should come as a surprise to her - like a bucket of ice water when she least expects you to do something - because "what happens next" is not only a question for your WW - it is also a weather forcast - what happens next is YOU take charge here


I'm so sorry

however - it ain't over 'till it's over

she will hate plan B - even if she does not show it ....

sorry sorry sorry
Posted By: Pepperband Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 04:08 PM
actually, this ....

Quote
I closed with "I respectfully urge you to reconsider your "need" to do something that is clearly driven by your emotions, and think about the rest of us."


.... is Plan A classic

I wanted this to be highlighted for any newbie who may be reading!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 04:18 PM
Ha Ha

Quote
OMM is this aging new-agey type who's into colon cleanses, organic food and God knows what else.


Years and years ago, when Mr Pep was still secretly full throttle in his affair, he brought home a huge stinky mushroom the size of a dinner plate, that was supposed to cure EVERY AILMENT known to man or beast - and all you had to do was cut a piece off the mushroom and brew a cup of tea and drink it every day ---- it smelled like [censored]

about a month later - I discovered the A

the mushroom was the second inanimate object upon which I vented my rage (the poor innocent Christmas tree was the first!)

this new-age-y thinking is wish fulfillment - the magical cure for everything-

laughable

PS - the mushroom was a "gift" from OW - fungus - it figures! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 04:52 PM
Thanks Mel,

Quote
She is on a self destruct mission and it helps no one for you to go down with her


I've got too much going for me, and love for my children to let that happen.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

However, you're right that it's gotten to the point that each new blow is dealt with less and less patience.

Will need to read up lots on Plan B first...my last "attempt" was a joke.

With kids, finances, taxes, logistics, etc., it's going to take MUCH planning.

As for the term "cake eating"...how does it apply to a WW who swears she wants to get D'd?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 05:00 PM
Quote
Thanks Mel,

Quote
She is on a self destruct mission and it helps no one for you to go down with her


I've got too much going for me, and love for my children to let that happen.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Then you have even more of an imperative to back that up with ACTION! Because it WILL happen if you continue as you have. Now is the time for action.

Quote
Will need to read up lots on Plan B first...my last "attempt" was a joke.

You can make plans in one afternoon by discussing the details with us on this forum. You don't have to read up on it. It is simple to PLAN, less simple to ENACT. Get working on your PLAN today.

Just get yourself seperated, set up a visitation schedule with the kids, seperate finances, and designate an intermediary. Remove any and all reasons for contact.

Anticipate attempts for her to break through, and be prepared for every eventuality. Have a plan in place to block her attempts, such as changing the locks on the doors, screening her calls, coaching your kids, etc.

Quote
As for the term "cake eating"...how does it apply to a WW who swears she wants to get D'd?

Cake eating means having your cake and eating it too. It applies to any wayward who is engaging in an affair while still enjoying the benefits of a marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 05:02 PM
Here is one of my favorite plan B letters that might be helpful: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post1143897
Posted By: believer Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 05:05 PM
Basically, you need to do some careful planning for Plan B. Start thinking NOW about reasons your wife would need to contact you and eliminate them.

The finances need to be split, so she has her money and doesn't get yours.

The contact with the kids needs to be scheduled. You can make out a calendar that lists her days and yours.

I think many people don't thoroughly PLAN for Plan B, and then end up doing a poor one, which is worse than none.

You want to protect your heart from her craziness and also give her a good taste of what life will be like without you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 05:05 PM
What went wrong on your last attempt at Plan B? ARe you currently seperated from your wife?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 05:08 PM
Quote
the mushroom was a "gift" from OW - fungus - it figures!

ROFLMAO!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

That is hysterical!!!

Thanks Pep...best laugh I've had in days!!

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 05:13 PM
having a hard time keeping up...bear with me...
Posted By: believer Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 05:14 PM
Listen to Melody and Pep - you've got the 2 best here.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 05:20 PM
Thanks Pep,

Trying to make sure I understand what is meant by...
Quote
"I know you've made your choice. What happens next?"


If I say I "know", am I not giving validity to and her choice?

The "what happens next" is, in her mind, D...so the discussion would then head down that that...not my desire or intent. How do I steer it in a constructive direction?

Understand the importance of calm...will work on that.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 05:45 PM
Quote
this new-age-y thinking is wish fulfillment - the magical cure for everything-


My own M did this same kind of [email]cr@p[/email] during her MLC some 40years ago...it's astounding to see it come back in this day and age.

WW's sheltered midwestern/catholic upbringing is what prevents her from seeing this for what it is, and thinks it's the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Rolfing, naturopaths, etc., treat the symptoms but not the cause of her fundamental unhappiness... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

can't educate her...so I appreciate the opportunity to vent that here... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Now, on to Plan B stuff:

Thanks Mel, Pep, Believer for your immediate help on this.

"Hurdles" to be overcome for a succesful Plan B in my case (as I see them)

- My military schedule, which often changes drastically and without notice.
- Along with this comes my desire to not set a precedent of giving WW more than her share of time w/ kids...even though she clearly does NOT act responsibly towards them, she's still their mom and they need her as much as me.
- I will be gone LOTS between now and the summer of '09, at which time I will fight for full custody...if it comes to that
- So, going into any plan B will require setting a precedent of expectation that the kids can see their dad at any and every opportunity. Pretty tough to do w/out interaction.
- financial separation...largely complete w/ separate accounts and one joint one from which all of our standard bills are automatically drawn (mortgage, insurance, utilities, etc.)
- Realities of where I work prevent me from the desired path - i.e. changing locks, putting her stuff in boxes in the driveway, as I can't be there for the kids during the week.

Are these roadblocks or just my own smokescreen to explain why it's "too hard"... (rhetorical question)

Any ideas how to overcome some of the above?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 05:57 PM
Quote
What went wrong on your last attempt at Plan B? ARe you currently seperated from your wife?


My first attempt at plan B was not planned beyond saying to WW that if she was going to have any further contact w/ OM, then I won't have any contact w/ her.

I went into it for the wrong reasons. It's supposed to protect my own LB, but at the time it was more to try to split up WW and OM...dumb.

It lasted about a month at which time I realized that I had more Plan A left in me. WW initiated lots of contact for biz-related stuff...again, due to my lack of planning.

Not separated, in the traditional sense, but in reality, our not overlapping in the home could be described by some as a separation.

She works part time locally so is there for the kids during the week (and by that I mean "there for them", not being the parent)

The distances involved (including finiky ferries and horrific traffic) make my living in the house during the week a tremendous hurdle...but some have urged me to try.

Perhaps it's time for me to work w/ my command to make it happen as much as possible while I'm not deployed
Posted By: Pepperband Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 05:59 PM
the art of war .... get your enemy to reveal their plan

"What happens next?"

Is not your turn to discuss or even render an opinion on whatever crap she spews .... it is a tactical maneuver to get HER to talk so you can observe her and gain intel - so you can make your plans (whatever they may be) knowing what her plans are

listen and respond to her without offering advice/opinion/judgement (takes a sort of strength I believe you have)

responses like:

...I see
...That's interesting
...Tell me more
...I understand
...I hear what you are saying
...Anything else?
...Have you thought about a timeline?

It's possible she will not say much - but it's worth a try

be the uber-listener
get her some tea
offer her a blanket

be kind & gentle - while you observe and listen and gather insight about her


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> or not .... it is ONLy a suggestion
an option

free and well worth the price !
Posted By: believer Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 06:30 PM
This is a tough one. If you will be mostly gone, I don't see that you will be able to work on the marriage, or even do a good Plan B.

The thing that is in your favor is that the affair has gone on so long and will be over soon, no matter what.

You have told your kids that mom has another man, right?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 06:39 PM
L2fly, why are you gone during the week? In Plan B, the goal is to move the WS out of the house and make her finance her own digs. Is that possible?

Can you bring me up to speed on the living situation?

thanks believer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 07:03 PM
Quote
get your enemy to reveal their plan


Got it...

Pep, thanks for the good listening words...always helps to have a cheat sheet...prevents the "lizard" from responding.

Quote
free and well worth the price !


I wouldn't be here if I didn't think so! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 07:22 PM
Mel,Pep and B... he is in the armed forces and works 3+ hours away, so instead of driving back and forth every day, he stays on base during the week. As soon as he comes home on Fridays (sometimes before, as she did this week...are you documenting this L2F?), she takes off to see OM, who lives several (3?) hours away and stays with him all weekend. They rarely see each other as it is, and L2F is there with the kids all weekend.

Since your finances are already seperated, the biggest obstacle is the working during the week. I suggested coming back every other day so that you could see them 2 nights during the week without having to drive 6 hours each day. You NEED to speak to whoever you can about figuring something out with your job...tell them you have some serious family crisis headed your way and need their help. The kids are getting old enough now (15/13) that they should be able to make their own decisions regarding who gets primary custody. They key is (and yes Pep and Mel, they know everything) making sure they feel empowered to speak their minds in this mess. They obviously cannot be uprooted from their schools right now, but there may be a way to work things out, especially in the summer.

Hope this helps...
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 08:07 PM
Believer, ML,

Yup, difficult.

You can go back and search under my previous username for how I told kids. You were there, Mel.

My home is between 2 and 4 hours from work, depending on traffic and ferry schedules. The only way to work being in my home at night would be to do that on a couple of nights midweek and then weekends. This would require lots of flexibility from my command...not easy...I'm VERY senior.

Most importantly, it would really wear me down, physically and mentally...the current arrangement at least allows me to recharge some.

Will look into how that might work, but the reality of trying to do that is that there are many unforseen and unexpected "pop-up" meetings, etc., that make coordinating this w/ WW mid-week while in a dark Plan B well, challenging.

As for her getting a "crash pad" while I'm there, well there is no "extra" money laying around to finance that. OM is not nearby so she can't live w/ him...although I'd love for her to give that a shot...

Saying F/U could also be looked on poorly by any potential divorce court...

Due to WW having pretty much destroyed our financial situation over the years due to her being "in charge", and my being stupid, naiive and trusting enough to have my head in the sand, there's precious little savings to assist in digging out.

We're upside down on two car loans and in a house we can't afford in a declining market...

I'm not denying blame for our situation, I just guess I didn't see it b/c it was "her" job, while I was off "fighting the wars"...stupid, stupid, stupid!

I'm too close to the bark on this tree to see the forest on this one...

Please keep those ideas coming!!!
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 08:34 PM
First and foremost, you MUST get a lawyer, L2F. There is just no way around it, and get a GOOD one. Do you know anyone who has divorced (male) and got a really good deal? Start asking around. You need what they call a BULLDOG attorney...one who will not shy away from a fight. Is your state a "no fault" state? Get on the internet, go to Google/Yahoo and search in your area/state. You have to be sure on ALL of your rights and what will help/hurt you if it comes down to a D/custody. Like I said, though...you can be sure that the court WILL listen to your children...they are old enough. THIS IS KEY!!

She is responsible for figuring out her own financial probelms. SHE created this mess, not you. You only need to be concerned for yours and your childrens' well-being. Do not fall into the trap of feeling "helpless" because of finances. She has been allowed to cake-eat off of YOUR finances and live in the marital home while engaging in an A for far too long. Protect yourself NOW, before it is too late!!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 08:44 PM
Hey LaLa,

We were cross-posting...thx for the great summary!

As for the ISD thread, she read it initially, but hasn't since about page 3.

Your strategic point is well taken, however.

She doesn't browse around on this site and I think only you and RIF mentioned my username in that thread and it was after she visited.

Perhaps you could edit those specific references out.

On the whole, however, I try to make sure there's nothing here that could "damage my case" in future...as it's all true.

Yes, LaLa, you have coaxed me before to go the route of staying up here during the week...and it is the right thing to do.

I'm just not sure how to approach the possiblity of doing so and still do a Plan B...we'd be separated, but not really... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

First thing's first, though, and I think that's getting back home for as many nights as possible...let HER figure out where she's going to stay.

Again, thoughts on how I can do this AND plan B?
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 09:09 PM
Since you've read my last post about strategy, I edited it to take out her info, and then went back and edited my post to her. I figured she already knew your "name" here...sorry bout dat!

Quote
First thing's first, though, and I think that's getting back home for as many nights as possible...let HER figure out where she's going to stay.

Good attitude, and very true. However, you know all the vets are going to tell you that Plan B isn't Plan B if you are still "living" under the same roof, yanno! It is a very tough sitch as far as living arrangements go, that's fo sho! I will wait and see what Pep and Mel say about that...military is really HE11 on family life, especially in this sitch. The thing I will say is, use your seniority to try and work things out. Rely on the fact that serving your country will be SMILED upon in court, and the fact that your children are older and support you and can testify what a GREAT FATHER you are will be invaluable.

Stay strong...it ain't over till it's over!!!
Posted By: believer Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 09:09 PM
You can't do Plan B and live together. That just won't work.

But I agree with LaLa, she is having the affair on your dime.

I think I would ask her to get a full time job since if you divorce she will need to bring in more money.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 11:08 PM
Quote
You can't do Plan B and live together. That just won't work


Now I may be "new" here, but even I got that much... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, that's the problem...even if there weren't an A, and we got D'd, that would be the rub.

It is hard to imagine a plan B or D in which we don't have to sell the house.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 11:18 PM
L2F, I think you have 2 choices, either sell the house and move closer to your work, or tolerate her affair for a few more years, until you grow to hate her. You are in a position where you are to have to do something drastic to even move forward.

If you moved your family closer, you could make her move contingent upon ending her affair. And if she didn't, you could go into Plan B and be home with your kids every night. Either way, your kids and you would not have to witness her filthy affair up close.

It might seem like the kids are better off staying in the same school, but I don't think they are better off watching their mother run off like an alley cat in heat every weekend showing absolute and utter disrespect to their father and them. That trains to grow up and be little abusers or abused spouses. It teaches them it is ok to be DOORMATS and not defend your family when it is so blantantly under assault. What a horrendous lesson to role model for kids.

Better yet, I would want to teach them that even when things are hard, that sometimes hard decisions have to made. Show them courage in the face of terrible abuse. I would much rather show my boys THAT.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/24/08 11:18 PM
LaLa, no prob <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I didn't really think about trying to keep my identity a secret, but I'd never told her who I was, either. As she doesn't browse here (would probably learn something) it's not a problem.

Will look at my schedule this week and figure out how to accomplish this increased "presence" in the home.

Wish me luck!

Thank you all for jumping in so quickly w/ ideas and support...Still prepping for our next "conversation".

OBTW, went over to WW's M's house and had a long conversation w/ her. If you've read from the beginning you see that she and WW are somewhat estranged due to "history" between them.

Finally said the heck w/ it and went and spilled the beans. Turns out her whole family is on "my" side on this thing...small comfort, eh?

Anyway...had another great w/e w/ the kids!

We'll see what the new week holds!

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/25/08 12:12 AM
Mel, I totally agree with everything you've said,in principle...however...

The cold hard fact of my military situation is that I will not be home for 5 months of this year, and the first 7 months of next year...making moving my kids and then leaving them in a new school while I'm gone (and with who I'm not sure...) a non-starter

RIF, I do NOT know how you do it..Kudos to you and Mrs RIF!!

As many here have pointed out, Mr W among them, that when it comes to custody battles, what matters most is what's in the children's best interest.

It's the courts that determine that, and I'm thinking they'd frown on a "plan" that would look to an outsider as a "power play".

Do you see why Plan B is so sticky?

What I've read in many different places that what kids need, above all else, is to have a steady routine, parents who love them, and who are good role models.

I'm modeling strength, courage, patience, commitment and honor. I can NOT tell WW what to model, but she's their mother, and she's loving them right now in the only way she's capable of.

What my kids see is that her lack of respect is for herself, not me or them. They KNOW it has nothing to do with any of us and that it's their mother's problem.

That we've been able to discuss this and that they see it so clearly is why I know they will NOT grow up to do this themselves.

I'm wholeheartedly of the belief that problems like this perpetuate for generations because families become habituated to the point they don't even SEE it. Not so here.

My children have INCREDIBLE respect for how I'm handling this. DD has said that it speaks volumes about my integrity.

Ironically, while I'm here WW sees OM more b/c she is able to leave each w/e. While I'm gone, it's more dificult to get a babysitter and she will NOT have OM around kids...the kids will not allow it. Friends are also "read in" and will be less likely to jump in to watch kids while she "cats around".

...do you see why I'm agonizing on the realities of the situation? As black and white as the adultery issue is, the implementation ain't (said w/ best imitation of Texas drawl...)
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/25/08 07:10 PM
Had another wonderful weekend w/ the kids <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WW made it home around 7pm...looking haggard, tired and guilty.

I was in full plan A mode...making dinner-for-breakfast with the kids. Waffles, scrambled eggs, sausage, etc. Kitchen was filled w/ happy family bustling...and WW was on the periphery...not a part of the love-fest.

I asked nothing of her

I smiled and made pleasant conversation

I commented on how good she looked

We had some pleasant interaction on the couch before I left...talking about nothing in particular.

Man, when I look at her I just feel sad. Not hurt, just sad for her, for what she's doing to herself...

I guess that's a true testament to the love I feel for her...I didn't feel angry, I just care for HER so much that her best interests are what come to mind first.

That's easy when she's there. When she's gone is when I get angry... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Another week...as I was driving away I felt truly satisfied and happy about my contribution to my kid's weekend, my significant accomplishment in building a stronger loving relationship with them.

Silver lining to a dark cloud... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/26/08 03:21 PM
Hey L2F!

Quote
Another week...as I was driving away I felt truly satisfied and happy about my contribution to my kid's weekend, my significant accomplishment in building a stronger loving relationship with them.


You are a good man L2F... Sadly, Mrs. L2F can't see that right now... but one day she will. I hope for her sake that she starts seeing it soon...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/27/08 01:26 AM
Thanks for the good words RIF...it really means a lot to me.

I've been reading the whole respect and anger post and have tried not to throw fuel on that fire, but I truly think there's a continuum here...I see much between the black and white.

I DO respect myself...that's a large part of how it is I'm able to not take much of this pain personally. I know that my WW chose to do this, not b/c of who I am, but b/c of who she is.

Posturing, blustering and judging are not good ways to show WW the "way home"...

WW has referred to my "self righteousness" in the letters like earlier in this thread...and I can't say I disagree with her characterization.

WW's Mom told me that her behavior is immoral...well duh! If just pointing out the obvious to a WS was all it took, this MB would be a ghost town...

Showing them the way back home has everything to do w/ making WS feel safe...something I work on every chance I get.

One man's doormat is another man's beacon, eh?

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/28/08 02:49 AM
Nothing really new to report today...

Last night I was talking casual stuff w/ WW and I remembered to tell her that I might be working this saturday due to some operational commitments...

Her reply? A short and snippy "and WHEN were you going to tell ME that?"

Before responding in kind, I took a breath and replied with a smile in my voice: "I'm telling you right now"

After thinking about it, I'm guessing the rapid anger had to do w/ my not being home Fri night was interfering with her own weekend plans...oh, me so sorry.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yanno, sometimes it's FUN to poke the bear... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

So, if it turns out I CAN make it home on Fri, do I tell her ahead of time, or just show up?
Posted By: ILA Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/28/08 03:02 AM
******, I'd just show up. "thought I'd surprise you honey....figured you'd be so happy to see me" :P

But, what do I know?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/28/08 03:27 AM
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We think alike... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oh that would SO not go over well...

It could be seen as power play..."forcing" her to hit the road late in the evening without a "plan"

But then again, her leaving is HER choice, right?

Weighing pros/cons to this action...

My NOT telling her could be seen as "controlling"...
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/28/08 03:32 AM
Another option is to show up during the day Sat (if I don't work), and that way she has "options" without being painted into a corner...

Wondering what WW's reaction will be when/if WW's M tells her she knows...
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/28/08 03:45 AM
"Honey, I'm home. We canceled our stuff for tonight so we could all spend the night with our families. We might have to report Saturday afternoon and maybe stay into Sunday night late."

Bet that'd make her weekend...

"Well, I guess they aren't going to call me to come in after all. Think I'll go to bed so I can go in early in the morning...G'night."

Mark
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/28/08 04:08 PM
Thanks Mark...

I like both of your suggestions ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In this day of instant communication, NOT calling her when I know about Saturday (probably Fri afternoon, and ~3 hours before getting home) could be seen as intentionally underhanded...

Any ideas how I spin that positively?

L2F
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/29/08 03:19 AM
Hey L2F!

Sorry I've been AWOL... My transition briefings started the day I landed and have been going on every day up until 2000-2100 every night! Today is Friday so it's a "low battle rhythm" day and I don't have any meetings! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I can understand about not wanting to "cause" Mrs. L2F to drive late at night, but that would be HER choice... I say let her know that you'll be home and let her do what she wants... no sense in cutting your time short with the kids just to keep Mrs. L2F "happy"...

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/29/08 03:49 AM
Hey L2F...you sound in good spirits, how awesome for you!

Sorry I've not been around much lately. Just been keeping up with everyone but not posting much.

You just play dumb...."gosh, SORRY, I truly am. I hope you aren't upset! I'll be better next time with communication!" (too bad you won't...hahahaha <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

Seriously, you don't have to make too many excuses for breaking up her weekend time with her boyfriend! I say, make it as hard as possible. Start running down her battery or other such things without her "knowing" it was you to throw a wrench in her plans. Sorry, some people might think this is juvenile, but how much worse is it than being like "Have a nice visit with your boyfriend, honey!" Good grief!! (and I don't mean that's what YOU do...jes sayin'!)

Have you thought any more about what we were all talking about the other day? Have you spoken to a L to see what your rights are? I'm gonna start kickin your [censored] about this every day, dangit...ONE YEAR IS LONG ENOUGH FOR PLAN A!!!!! Start shakin things up! You are in the right mindframe for it now, too...

Whatchoo think?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/29/08 03:54 AM
Hey RIF,

Great to hear from you!

I concur w/ your assessment.

Intentionally not telling her would seem nothing more than manipulative.

God I hate meetings! Life was so much simpler as a lowly LT... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is it starting to warm up there at all??

Weather here is positively balmy...low 50's and some sunshine.

Our operational tempo's about to pick up significantly, resulting in increased time away...taking every opportunity to be w/ the kids. They are both just so amazing through this, and my being present for them sure helps.

You'll still be there the next time I'm in your neck of the woods (in about a year). Just look up...I'm sending cover your way... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Stay safe my friend

L2F
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/29/08 03:48 PM
Hey L2F!

Oh to be a butter-bar again!

If you ever get a chance to land, make sure you stop by and see me! I'll buy you lunch and show you around!

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/29/08 06:18 PM
Quote
Oh to be a butter-bar again!


Yes and no...I don't think I ever want to be that clueless again... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Been doing much reading of other threads and I am reminded of how important it is to keep steadily moving forward...

I'm learning just how much I have NOT understood the nature of WW's unhappiness.

Sure, much of it has/had nothing to do with me, and I can leave that alone...it's her stuff.

What I'm getting a greater appreciation for is my piece of the puzzle. It's funny, that realization goes in cycles. Initially, like many BS's, I took almost FULL responsibility due to the overwhelming guilt and loss of self-esteem an A causes.

Over time I grew to see where I was erroneously taking responsibility for her stuff...often in response to her accusations.

I am getting so much better at not accepting blame that isn't mine (a misplaced sense of duty made that much bigger as a result of my line of work).

I'm more clearly defining the boundaries of my garden and tending it more lovingly.

But there certainly was MUCH I did wrong. So much of it had to do with not understanding just how different my WW's experience of life is. I assumed too much about how she felt/thought. I assumed that her way of looking at the world was much like my own.

Not so...and it's a tough pill to swallow that I'd been so far off the mark.

Am using that to grow each day.

There are many here who wax extremely eloquently about their feelings and from whom I have learned much.

I'm not one of those people who has a problem getting up in front of people and speak convincingly off the cuff...sometimes in front of thousands.

How is it that when in front of WW...I get tongue-tied...and often blurt out the wrong thing?

I have to plan out what I say to her so much more carefully so I don't respond with my still-evolving instinctual defensiveness

Will probably have Saturday off...will plan to give WW a call this afternoon on the way home.

L2F
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/29/08 06:21 PM
Hey L2F! We cross-posted yesterday and then went to a new page on your thread...did you see my post? I think you missed it!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 02/29/08 11:17 PM
Hi LaLa,

Yes, I did miss it!

Thanks for the reply...and the anticipated 2x4s... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Work just ramped up considerably, making the midweek stay not possible this last week. We become accustomed to remaining flexible in our military line of work...tough on the spouses.

The Marines have "Semper Fi" - always faithful...

In aviation, it's "Semper Gumby" - always flexible... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I AM in good spirits...happy w/ ME, right now.

I truly DO love my wife, and am hoping my family survives this, but I'm also no longer in denial.

I'm not reacting to her, but it's her that will have to file... I won't.

Plan A is the plan until I lose my love...something that dips below acceptable levels on occasion, then I check my expectations and push on...

As for L, I'm pretty much set.

Still so very unclear what's the deal w/ her "relationship" at this point...she's pissed at him (go figure), so the less R and M talk, and more plan A, the better, right?

Standing by for more [censored] kicking... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

L2F
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/01/08 12:29 AM
Aw, come on...I didn't whoop ya that bad...LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I was just suggesting some good 'ol fashioned WRENCHES to throw in her little fantasy world...you know, that you have no idea how they happened???

Ya gotta find some way to stop this A from happening, at least make it less convenient, yanno!
Posted By: ILA Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/01/08 01:47 AM
Quote
I'm not one of those people who has a problem getting up in front of people and speak convincingly off the cuff...sometimes in front of thousands.

How is it that when in front of WW...I get tongue-tied...and often blurt out the wrong thing?

I have to plan out what I say to her so much more carefully so I don't respond with my still-evolving instinctual defensiveness

Boy, ain't this the truth. I have the same problem. I find myself rehearsing my "speach" in my head all day when I know I'm going to talk to her later....drives me batty!

I just told WW last time we spoke that 3 months ago we were in love and knew the most intimate details about each other, were touchy-feely, emotions were free, etc.....now it seems like she's a total stranger to me. I don't even know when/if it's ok to call her. That's really scary and just boggles my mind how I can be feeling that way about my W ??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This is a crazy game isn't it?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/01/08 07:56 AM
Crazy game...

So, I call from the road several times and it goes to voicemail. I let her know I might not be home until late. I get a hold of her as I'm about 15 min from home and she's at a friends w/ my son. She immediately tells him they're leaving...the friends wonder what's up.

I ask her to not leave before I get home and she reluctantly agrees.

After some pleasantries I ask to speak w/ her in private.

I tell her I'm confused over what happened 2 weeks ago and the following weekend. She says "I'm just not going there with you"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I say that it was her who brought up her going to go get "closure", and I appreciated her honesty. Then she went to see him the following weekend.

Her reply? "You don't know as much as you think you do..." with much venom...and then "I'm doing it for ME"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Then follows w/ "I gave you papers...and I'm sorry if they were not up to your standards...I'm not a lawyer" (up to your standards...where did THAT come from??)

She walks out of the room and hugs kids goodbye...

I'm so tired of this s#it.

Yanno, it really IS easier when I don't have to see her

A real Plan B indicator, no?

So, thinking I'll start the Plan B letter, but due to realities of my frequent departures, I need to get a handle on just how to craft a way I can maximize flexibility and time w/ kids... Ideas?
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/01/08 06:28 PM
What did your L say to do?
Posted By: believer Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/01/08 11:58 PM
Hang in there.

Didn't Jennifer tell you NOT to go to Plan B? I would follow her advice.

Have hope. My ex's OW's hubby came home from Iraq to find out she was having an affair. It went on and on, for 3 and a half years.

Now they are back together and living very happily.

Affairs always end. Hope your wife's doesn't go on for too much longer, but sooner or later it will end. Make a good life for YOU and she will most likely join you.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/02/08 07:57 AM
Hi LaLa,

Quote
What did your L say to do?


Pretty much what I've done...separate finances, keep records of her "absences", my time w/ kids...you know, the usual.

I'm pretty realistic about what kind of settlement would eventually be reached if we D'd. Probably more so then WW is, that's for sure...

Quote
Make a good life for YOU and she will most likely join you


So true, Believer, and regardless of whether she "comes around", I'll have made the changes needed in MY life.

Yes, Jennifer recommended against Plan B...I'm just my own worst enemy some times. Objectively, non-emotionally, I understand what's going on w/ WW, her A, her MLC, her alcohol use, etc. What's difficult is when confronted w/ her venom, her selfishness, it's hard not to take it, well... personally, yanno?

Coming back here and reading "the script" helps me to put it into perspective...problem is, no matter what's actually going on that's causing her to do what she's doing...it is HER reality right now, and knowing just how stubborn she REALLY is, I am seriously doubting her ability to "get it".

Her mom, her uncle and her grandma are all so sad and very supportive of my efforts...they think the world of me, and have all told me how much they are on "my side".

Her mom told me today that she just found out that WW's other uncle's W is having an affair, as well as WW's brother. Her whole family's got issues...WW's mom is really crushed.

Was looking for some tax papers this afternoon and found a rough letter intended for me that WW wrote early on in the affair.

I won't write it down here b/c I know that it's almost 2 yrs old by now...but still, it was crappy to read how she was trying to tell me how we could still be friends, but that our R could NEVER be physical again...

kinda strange, in that her biggest gripe was how she thought I'd rejected her physically...

I was always the one to initiate SF, and touched, stroked, loved her all the time...really pisses me off how she chooses to characterize it as MY rejection of her... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I was NEVER a selfish lover...ALWAYS looking for ways to make HER feel satisfied... Wasted efforts...

I derived no small pleasure in learning that about a year ago there was trouble in her new little paradise as well...gee, OM started to not measure up either...hmmmmm d'ya suppose perhaps it's something wrong w/ YOU???

that felt good...

So, spending the day skiing w/ DS tomorrow. The weather's great and I'm looking forward to spending time w/ someone who appreciates me. Man, he's a great kid!

Thanks for dropping by guys... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

L2F
Posted By: RIF Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/02/08 04:57 PM
Hey L2F!

Just spent a 'wonderful' day and a half at "the other big base" up north... I don't know how you can stand the noise of all those noisy jets!!!

I know it's hard, but stay focused on your Plan-A! I know how hard all of this is, but with your upcoming time "away", you can use it to focus on the kids and make any 'interaction' with Mrs. L2F as pleasant as possible.

Like Believer says, the A WILL end... hopefully sooner rather than later. I'm praying for you and your family.

Semper Fi,

RIF
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/04/08 10:50 PM
Well...I think I'm done...

Respect, honor, decency, integrity...these are all things WW has shown she does not value, and I have recognized (finally) that she's the person she is, and not the person I want her to be.

So what happened?

I texted WW on Sunday mid-day to let her know that I would be staying Sunday night, and not returning to my place of work.

She calls at 6pm to say that I "can't just let her know that I'm staying, and that I should be asking". She goes on to say that she'd "appreciate it if I'd strip the bed so she can stay there tonight".

I let her know that she's welcome to stay, but that I'll be staying there regardless. She continues to use the phrase "I'd appreciate it if...", but it was clear that it was a nicety she'd been coached to use, and was NOT a request.

She flames me when she gets home, saying how she has to work in the morning and needs a good night's sleep. I calmy let her know that I've had plenty of good night's sleep in the playroom, and she's welcome to stay there.

Nothing doing.

So she just goes to the bedroom and starts stripping the bed...

This was when it began to go downhill.

I wrestle w/ what to do...I can't physically stop her...it would be "assault". I consider calling the police to have them there as a civil standby...but to what end?

WTF do you do when someone refuses to be reasonable?

I've always been the one to back down when she goes psycho...

I ask her to stop, and that it's my bedroom too, and that if she want to stay, she's welcome to, but I won't be put out of my bed.

Continued venom about how we "agreed" that it was "her" night, etc..

I said that it wasn't so much an agreement as it was what she wanted...

I maintain that I'll be staying.

DS gets involved when he hears voices raised.

She says "fine, then since I don't work Tues (this is Sun night), I won't be back until Tues night".

Me: Then who will watch the kids while I'm at work in (work place city)?

WW: That's your problem. If I don't stay in my bed tonight, then you'll have to figure that out...

Me: WW, you can't just leave the kids...

WW: Watch me

DS: Mom, that's called abandonment

WW: DS, I'm not abandoning you...

DS: Mom, yes you are!

Me: WW, you can spend the night here, the playroom, or somewhere else, but I expect you to be here tomorrow when the kids get home from school

WW: you can expect all you want...you decided to stay here, so you can deal with the consequences.

Me: Yes, I'm also the one dealing with the consequences of your sleeping with another man...

pause...

WW: So then, why don't you tell the kids all about your porn addiction? (WW found some files I'm not proud of on our computer about a year ago...they have been deleted and I have not surfed any porn since)

Me: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> WW, you are crossing a very inappropriate line. DS, please leave.

WW: How is that any different or less appropriate than your telling the kids about my A?

Me: Because your having an A affects the kids. The kids already knew what you were doing...I only let them know that I knew as well, and that they could now talk about the elephant in the living room. My "porn addiction", as you like to call it, has/does not have anything to do with the kids.

DS: (who hadn't left)... Mom, all dad told us was that you had a "boyfriend"...and he DIDN'T give any details.

I showed son the door and closed it behind him.

I tried as calmly as I could to tell WW that her motivations appeared to be only an effort to strike back at me, and ultimately are destructive to me and my kids.

She maintained there's no difference...and that my bringing up her A in front of the kids is equally as damaging to HER. I agree it is damaging to her, but that they were her actions and choices, and her leaving the kids to be w/ OM directly affected the kids.

I tell her that we got married in front of our family, the community and God...and our marriage is a matter of public interest...and her choosing to ignore her "duties" as a wife and mother were certainly of interest to our kids.

She counters with "we did NOT get married in front of God, we got married in front of a Judge"... OMG, this from the mouth of the Catholic! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I try to explain the difference btwn privacy and secrecy, and I how I wouldn't even remotely consider telling the kids about the "mechanical friend" in her nightstand...

I spend the rest of the evening trying to comfort my overwrought children...

In the end, she intentionally tried to demean me in front of my kids in order for her to deal with her own guilt. How do I ever forgive her for that?

Her motivations in this whole thing have been selfish, ugly and cruel.

My eyes are finally open...and I don't like the creature that I see.

Plan A...not gonna happen any longer.

Plan B...we'll see...but at this point, I plan to go file at the earliest opportunity.

I guess this dovetails nicely w/ MEDC's Respect and Anger thread... My anger at WW is a motivating force to stand up for what is right, for me and my family.

I've had it...
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/04/08 10:58 PM
((((((L2F)))))))

I hear ya screamin', man. I think you did absolutely FANTASTIC!!! Even in Plan A world! What a way to REVERSE FOG BABBLE!!

Do what you need to do. It's time. Your kids are with you...way to go!!!

Now you really do need to Learn to Fly......
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/05/08 01:15 AM
Quote
Now you really do need to Learn to Fly......


Too true...

I guess everyone has a line that, once crossed, it's over.

For WW, evidently it happened some time ago.

For me, it was Sun night.

Her viscious attempt to make me look bad to our children, at any cost, was that line.

Her doing so was ultimately destructive to them, and their future relationship with me

I have been as understanding, patient, loving as anyone could possibly be in this...

I was hoping to be "that guy" that WW could eventually see as "her hero", who never gave up...but she's bit my hand one too many times.

I will be civil, in order to spare the kids any further conflict...they so do NOT deserve what she's doing.

But truly, this is now plan F/U.

I could never, in a million years have seen myself in this position...yet, now that I'm here, I feel some sense of self-determination I've needed for a LONG time.

Perhaps I should be "FlyingSolo"...
Posted By: ILA Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/05/08 01:28 AM
Are you prepared to deal with WW if she ends up running back to you screaming "I'm sorry...I love you...don't do this"?

Hey, man, not saying this will happen (don't let that influence your decision).....but once she gets her world rocked you never know.

Just throwing it out there so you think about it and are prepared if it should happen.....you might as well make your plan now so you aren't a deer in headlights if it happens. It looks like you are firmly in control of YOU and are ok with this step now.....but if she flips on you it might totally make you go whacko!!

Like I said....just making you think, man. Be strong <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/05/08 01:39 AM
L2F,

You didn't face your wife Sunday night...you faced the very juvenile, justifying, self-deceiving WW. You know that. I'm reminding. Very child-like...not adult.

I'm behind your Plan B and D...you know your limit. Your pain comes all the way through.

Gotta ask in my support of you...Respect, honor, decency, integrity...are valuing these things in yourself right now?

I totally agree with Resonance on the way you chose to respond to WW...I want to offer an option, not for you, for those in your position reading your thread...which is hindsight...that when a WS threatens to abandon...take them up on it. "I know you're choosing to do this." Immediately get on the phone and state, "My wife is leaving my kids without anyone to watch them tomorrow night and get them to school Tuesday morning. Will you do it?" Be it neighbor, relative, hired babysitter. Calmly...take them up on it.

When the WS changes their mind...then they can call the person back...provide the name and number of whom you called. Not you. Not P/A...bringing reality.

Please expect a WS to justify, self-deceive and rage...act childish and give ultimatums...that's the world they are living in their mind. Up to the BS to really understand this and NOT expect rational behavior...only for themselves to act rationally.

Does not mean you didn't do it right, L2F...I trust you to hear that from me...your fight is not in vain...ever. Your thread is important and it ripples...as do you.

You cannot look bad to your children...that's what DS was saying. He was bringing reality...you exampled that to him and he was honest. Take a moment and take that in.

Divorce is ultimately destructive to them...does not determine their future relationship with you. To be worked out, over time, as you have been doing...adversity is not wrong...you know that. I'm reminding. You love through, hold to your code, anyway.

What matters...can you see yourself as "that guy"? You chose to not ditch your marriage...to fight for it...and possibly, to fight for it in another way...the next step...standing for your marriage. You're not really giving up...you're moving forward...getting out of the way of the consequences to your WS's choices...

Would you consider you will be civil because that's who you are? It's in your code...doesn't spare the children further conflict (or pain/fear/anger..their own stuff)...means you are exampling how to respond to conflict in a healthy way. What a gift.

No one deserves what she's doing...that's WS talk. She's doing and you are doing...each choosing. You know your own choices, your goals...focus on them.

Sounds like Plan Reality to me...part of Plan A...Plan No More. Still a plan...with guidelines...in you.

I believe you're still Learning2Fly...no matter what.

LA
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/05/08 05:50 AM
Hey ILA...

Quote
Are you prepared to deal with WW if she ends up running back to you screaming "I'm sorry...I love you...don't do this"?


Thanks so much for the thought, and the head's up...that possibility would never have occured to me...

But then, that's because the possibility of that's about as high as snow in July in the Sahara...

Seriously, as much as I think I was hoping for that to one day happen, part of my epiphany (or the end of denial <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) was that I know very well who and what she really is, and this would just never happen.

I have asked her too many times over the last 17 years why she has such a chip on her shoulder...she will never be wrong...she'd rather die than be wrong.

Her loss.

I WILL be strong...heck, I AM strong. I looked at myself in the mirror today and saw a strong MAN...one that's tired of prostrating himself at the alter of an ungrateful biatch.

I felt ALIVE today...I felt the spirit of who I was BEFORE I found out about the A.

With how I feel, her flipping wouldn't make me whacko...it would just make me shake my head.

That's just it, I realize that I will be a better man, and a better example to my children by STOPPING this beating my head on a brick wall...it shows more respect for myself...and more intelligence as well... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

LA, as always...thanks for the reply...I've had to reread a coupla times... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Quote
You didn't face your wife Sunday night...you faced the very juvenile, justifying, self-deceiving WW. You know that. I'm reminding. Very child-like...not adult.


Yes...and no. What I faced (and that was part of my epiphany), was the same woman I married...or at least a part of her that was always there, but that I tried not to acknowledge.

It's not as though her character completely changed w/ the A...

Quote
Gotta ask in my support of you...Respect, honor, decency, integrity...are valuing these things in yourself right now?


That's just it...I AM!...and it feels GOOD!

Quote
I want to offer an option, not for you, for those in your position reading your thread...which is hindsight...that when a WS threatens to abandon...take them up on it. "I know you're choosing to do this." Immediately get on the phone and state, "My wife is leaving my kids without anyone to watch them tomorrow night and get them to school Tuesday morning. Will you do it?" Be it neighbor, relative, hired babysitter. Calmly...take them up on it.


That's BRILLIANT! Wish I had. I was just so entirely dumbstruck by her actions that I had absolutely NO idea how to respond... If another reads this and learns from it, so much the better!

Quote
Does not mean you didn't do it right, L2F...I trust you to hear that from me...your fight is not in vain...ever. Your thread is important and it ripples...as do you.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

...I needed that... And you know your trust is not misplaced...

Quote
You cannot look bad to your children...that's what DS was saying. He was bringing reality...you exampled that to him and he was honest. Take a moment and take that in.


He is truly stronger than I ever imagined...I have learned from him as well...

DD cowered in her room and couldn't look me in the eye that night. The next day whenever I hugged her, she held me SO tightly

God I love my kids...

Quote
What matters...can you see yourself as "that guy"?


Yes, I AM that guy. I can HONESTLY say I did ALL I could. It's time to acknowledge reality. I'm the doctor who performed CPR until the reality of death seeped in...finally...like the last rays of a sunset...only in this case...the first hint of dawn...

Quote
...means you are exampling how to respond to conflict in a healthy way. What a gift.


I won't lie...being civil right now will be a challenge...but when I am, it'll be for ME, not for her.

Quote
Sounds like Plan Reality to me...part of Plan A...Plan No More. Still a plan...with guidelines...in you.


period...dot! Couldn't have said it better myself... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Quote
I believe you're still Learning2Fly...no matter what.


Hey, at least I'm trainable... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

With appreciation and respect...

L2F
Posted By: WhoMe Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/05/08 02:35 PM
L2F,

Quote
...she will never be wrong...she'd rather die than be wrong.

Quote
was the same woman I married...or at least a part of her that was always there,

I am so sorry that you are having to go thru this. I noted the above statements with more than a little recognition.

They could have been written about me several years ago. I share some of the qualities that your wife has. I guess the big difference is that I finally opened my eyes and saw that and didn't much like me.

I suspect that your wife, at this point doesn't see these qualities in herself and would be shocked if anyone even attempted to point them out to her.

Change, though very difficult, is not impossible if the desire to do so is present. I wanted to become a better person and fought hard to overcome some my natural tendencies.

I see that as the difference here, I wanted to change, your WW doesn't appear to recognize that anything about her needs to change. Not good for you or your children.

I think you have fought the fight to save your marriage admirably. I also think that it is unfortunate that due to your work situation, you were unable to go to a dark plan B because I think it might have helped.

I strongly sense that your love for your WW is nearly used up. Right now, that might be just what she wants, or at least thinks she wants. Only time will tell if she will ever come to have regrets.

FWIW, she's a fool.

Take care of yourself L2F.

Best,

Who
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/06/08 01:21 AM
She too saw that she didn't much like herself...problem is that she associated all her bad traits w/ the M, rather than owning them herself...

I became the thing to flee from...and the rest is history...

People HAVE tried to point out some of this, but anyone who "judges" her ceases to be her friend, and she's said that her family doesn't even like her...the latest to come out of her mouth on Sun evg...
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/06/08 01:35 AM
HeyHoo... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She too saw that she didn't much like herself...problem is that she associated all her bad traits w/ the M, rather than owning them herself...

I became the thing to flee from...and the rest is history...

People HAVE tried to point out some of this, but anyone who "judges" her ceases to be her friend, and she's said that her family doesn't even like her...the latest to come out of her mouth on Sun evg...

I read w/ interest Mr W's observation on LaLa's thread about WSs attacking the BS in order to "bring them down" amongst friends/families...how timely it was...

Will she regret this? Perhaps, but not for a long time, and I'm guessing not to the extent that would allow her to verbalize or make changes in our R...that would be an admission.

I just don't understand that mindset...I have dragged myself over the coals, both internally, and openly to WW about my own "contributions" to the state of our marriage...no reciprocity...which means either she doesn't feel she has any blame, or she won't give me the "satisfaction" of seeing it...

Will she change? She already has...in many ways she showed many of the traits I wanted in a W...but to OM... predictably, he is not evolved enough to get it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

All academic at the point...

On my way to the gym, then to see L tomorrow.

Tons of fun!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/09/08 04:42 AM
Hey there...

So life got in the way this week and L was not available until a week fron Mon... (I'm out of town until next Fri)

WW has been pleasant.

I come home a day early this week to see DDs play (A Children's Hour)...she was truly amazing! She played the grandmother...it was truly bizarre to see my 15 yr old looking 30 years older than me! She's REALLY good...her performance in the final scene brought tears to my eyes.

Had a good day w/ DS as well

Picked up the mail and found check from OM to WW... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...you can see that story in the "need quick response" thread.

The fact that this moron...who she considered a soulmate...who she brought into our house...who she let stick his **** God knows where...can't even spell her NAME is so astounding as to be inconceivable...

WW is no dummy...(as much as she IS a fool, Who)...and that she can't SEE how much of a user, idiot, moron, loser this guy is just makes me so sad...

Right now I'm temporarily back in the town where WW and I met, married, had DD and lived for almost 10 years.

Lots of triggers.

Lots of "why did it have to happen this way" kind of thoughts...

sigh....

Will be busy--in a good way--this week...doing "God's work"...

L2F
Posted By: WhoMe Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/11/08 04:13 PM
L2F,

Was just thinking about you and wondering how you are doing???

It's been a rough week around here for many of us. Sometimes that's the way it seems to go.

Maybe it's related somehow to daylight savings time. Must be a Commie plot!

Yanno, like fluoride in the water supply.

Who
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/12/08 03:49 PM
Hey Who!

Not much time to check the boards, but I see it's been busy. Nothing new to report this week...I'm away at sea doing the "fun stuff"...

It's always a thrill to be working with the men and women who make this big "machine" work...they are its heart.

We're all part of something bigger than ourselves...narcissists and self-centered SOBs need not apply.

In this business we have a constant stream of "distinguished visitors"...all of whom are impressed by the commitment and drive of those who serve.

I've come across many "famous" people who are military "groupies", as I'm sure you have over the years, and it's funny to see them be in awe of US.

I DO love my job, and it's a part of ME. WW can't take THAT away.

I'll be back at the end of the week.

Thanks for stopping by <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

L2F
Posted By: WhoMe Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/12/08 06:18 PM
L2F,

Quote
I've come across many "famous" people who are military "groupies", as I'm sure you have over the years, and it's funny to see them be in awe of US.

I really understand this. I spent nearly a decade planning special and events and ceremonies for WWII and Korean War veterans and coordinating military support for things like the National Memorial Day concert and have met loads of celebrities and famous folks.

For the most part, they have always approached me and thanked me for my service. As I near retirement, I do so with a great deal of pride and sense of fullfillment.

I am certain that when I take my uniform off for good in just 4 1/2 months, there are many aspects of this life that I will miss.

You are right in your thinking, there are just so many things that our FWS and our WS can never take away from us. For me too the pride in military service is near the top of that list.

Have a safe journey home.

Who
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/12/08 09:18 PM
Quote
As I near retirement, I do so with a great deal of pride and sense of fullfillment.


...as well you should!

Quote
there are just so many things that our FWS and our WS can never take away from us


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

...yup! Specifically self-respect, which grows each and every day as I grow stronger--in large part as a result of coming here and meeting you great folks...thanks!!

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/28/08 05:48 AM
Hey folks...coming back after a short haitus.

Some of it driven by the boards going dark, some of it due to wanting to take a break, some of it b/c I've been out to sea...

What was said about my being unable to do a pure Plan B is so true. For those of you able to do so, let me add my vote to the "do it before it's too late" crowd.

A week ago WW told me on the phone about how her female boss had "bald faced lied" to her about some insignificant thing. She went on and on with great indignation for about 5 min before she realized I'd been silent the whole time.

She asked "BS, you still there?"

Me: (with calm and even tone) "Yes WS, I'm still here. How did it make you feel when you found out she'd lied to you?"

Her: (with great indignation and venom) "I'm not even going there with you!"

She started to bluster and I firmly told her I was not interested in being spoken to in that tone and the conversation is over. I hung up.

I'd characterize my communications w/ my WS since then as being concise and businesslike. Not rude, but not friendly.

Have regained so much of my self respect...some of it regained by finally acknowledging and directing the anger in the right place...at my WW...thanks, MEDC wink.

Watched tonight's "In Treatment" episode w/ Jake and Amy... Amy IS my WS. Her physical similarity combined with her emotional detachment and broken psyche was incredible to watch.

...interesting show...

Spent Easter Sunday w/ kids and dyed eggs...something I hadn't been able to do w/ them for 2 years due to deployments. Those are the moments that count.

Anyway, heading back to the kids this weekend and I truly don't care what's on WW's agenda. What I do with MY time is significant, healthy and loving.

Hope you all have a great weekend!

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/29/08 02:57 PM
Got home...welcomed eagerly by our fantastic black lab...

Picked up DS at school and spent a great afternoon doing "guy stuff". DD gone for the w/e w/ friends so it's just the two of us.

Didn't look for "traces" of WS in the house...that need is waning.

Went over to friend's house for dinner, and while DS played w/ his friend, enjoyed relaxed adult companionship and conversation for the first time in awhile.

Some of our friends have appeared less available lately due to the awkwardness of the situation. That was gone tonight and it was as though a switch had been flipped in ME.

In past convos w/ friends I've been more "needy". I've moved to a place where I don't need to focus on the situation...instead I can just be ME and let them make their own judgments.

The same holds true for my kids. There's nothing more I need to say to them, other than to demonstrate through my actions that I'm honest, loving and present.

The "need" to write WS letters comes and goes, however, and I've been off and on working on one resulting from my realizations about the nature of dishonesty in her life. I guess I truly know that the letter is more for me than for her, and my writing it is a way of coming to terms w/ who and what she IS.

This is as close to plan B as I can get due to my sitch.

NOW, the last hurdle to get over is to move past my HUGE sense of righteousnes and dismay at the injustice of it all...
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/30/08 12:15 AM
HI L2F!!!!!!!!

Glad to see you and hear that you are doing better! I am very happy for you and the fact that you have a reached a place of peace and happiness within yourself. Good for you!!

Take care and God Bless, my friend!!

Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/30/08 04:35 PM
Hey LaLa!

Thanks for checking up.

Went in and fixed my sig line to fit w/ the new standards, and when it showed up I actually looked at the dates...

OMG, it will be 2 YEARS from D-Day in a couple of days...

...time flys when you're having fun... smirk

I spent some time looking back at where I was, the pain I felt, the desolation, the fundamentally life-altering nature of betrayal.

...the tears just welled up as I typed that...wow, triggers...

yet they are tears of acknowledgement, not desperation.

I'm laughing as I cry...

triggers...

I'm sitting at the computer where OM has sat to check his email while I was gone.

I'm sitting next to the shredder where WW routinely disposes of her phone bills, etc., so as not to be "discovered". How long had she been doing so before D-Day?

Behind me is the bed where WW had given me the cold shoulder for so long...where she explored her new-found sexuality w/ another man...

On the walls hang pictures of our life together...what kind of person could engage in such betrayal...in front of their children??

What kind of man could come into another man's house and do what he did while pictures of his children gaze upon the deed??

I just can't fathom that degree of ignorance...selfishness...evil.

hmmmm....amazing what life can throw at you...what you can survive.

I've come so far.

I've come to rediscover my own strength, my purpose...ME!

In the last 2 years I have strengthened my relationships w/ my DS and DD to a level I'd not thought possible.

I brought my "A game" to support every man and woman of my unit while deployed in a combat zone...putting their well-being in front of my own...even as my WW rooted in the gutter...

Before the A, I'd always thought of my WW as the generous one, the selfless one...talk about role-reversal.

I understand her unhappiness...yet I no longer take responsibility for it.

I no longer beat myself up

I no longer wonder "what if"...

I no longer wonder "why"...

It just is.

It was raining lightly this morning..

The sun just poked through and lit up the raindrops clinging to each leaf and new bud on the trees outside...announcing the coming Spring, and the rebirth it will bring...

iTunes is playing in the background...Joni Mitchell's "Tea Leaf Prophecy"...

...she plants her garden in the Spring...

No matter how deep and dark the Winter, Spring will always come

...life is good...
Posted By: jimld Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/30/08 04:50 PM
What I would give at this moment for the peace you have.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/30/08 05:45 PM
Jim...the peace comes and goes, it's just that it hangs around for longer periods these days... smirk

Have just read your sitch and am responding over there.

One thing I'll say for you is that you need to count your blessings...you WW is not even suggesting D...

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/31/08 08:38 PM
You're gonna love this one...

Background: WW gets a PO box for the whole family about a year and a half ago citing mail and identity theft along our rural road...yeah, right.

So I did the logical thing and got a key to it as well. Clearly this rankled her, as she had to continue to be sneaky.

So...I go to check the mail today...(WW's out of town, no doubt saying she's "sick"), and find out the mailbox has been "closed"!

Of course she did this without asking/telling me.

Sat down and had a long chat w/ the postmaster about it. Interesting conversation...seems she's committed fraud by claiming to be acting as my agent.

It appears that after I came across the letter from OM last weekend she felt entitled to do so. She's got her mail fwd'd to another box, along w/ kid's mail, and my mail, or at least that addressed only to me, is now being sent to my deployed address...

I'm just astounded...

If you knew my WW, you would be too.

WW's M thinks WW must have a brain tumor...

Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/02/08 05:23 AM
...continued...

So when WW texts to ask when I'm leaving (something that's gotten REALLY old, btw), I call her back and let her have it w/ both barrels.

I'm tired of being stomped on and taking it, so I directed my energy and anger where it was needed...at the offender.

I tell her in no uncertain terms how angry I am with her actions and that I know exactly why she did and it's a load of cr@p.

She calls back no fewer than 4 times after I hang up and I don't answer. Her first voicemail was an apology, her second gave "reasons" why she had done it.

In her third message she accused me of opening a random business letter addressed to her (2+ weeks earlier - an honest mistake), but then claims to have thought she was "doing the right thing" by having my mail forwarded to the ship...as in a favor to me...it made me dizzy to try to keep track of the rationalizations.

It was amazing to see how her brain was working to process the fact that she'd been busted doing something really underhanded.

I didn't answer...I'd said my piece.

This was Monday.

So, today, she drives DS to where I work to "job shadow" me for the day - something that was in the works for some time. Her trip was much longer than it should have been due to an unscheduled ferry breakdown.

When she arrived she was somewhat discombobulated from the unfamiliar drive and perhaps her anticipated reception.

I was as nice as I could be...naturally, because I'd said my piece already. I offered to give her a tour as well, since she was there...surprisingly, she accepted.

So, we marched onto the ship as a "family"... I introduce her to my coworkers as my "wife"...have to wonder what they thought, not having seen or heard of a Mrs L2F since I'd arrived over 7 months ago!

I have to admit that it was hard not to notice that WW is HOT...I've always been proud to be her husband.

A good tour, and WW seemed to genuinely enjoy it. Perhaps it was because she was back in a familiar environment...the "comfort zone" of the well-oiled military machine...who knows.

It's times like this, when she sees me in my element, calm, confident, appreciated by my peers and respected by my subordinates, that she must see how wide a gulf there is between me and OM...in almost every way that matters.

I'm a good, honest, loving and reliable man...and always have been.

She leaves DS w/ me and I have a wonderful day w/ him. He makes me SO proud!!!

WW calls a number of times more throughout the course of the day and is quite chatty...I'm pleasant as well.

I do wonder what's going through her mind...yet not dwelling on it.

My curiousity is just that.

I'm not waiting for her actions, and mine do not depend on hers...quite liberating.

All in all a good day.

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/03/08 05:12 AM
***Forgiveness, Love, Anger***

SB, you said...

Quote
For me, anger over physical and sexual abuse spread into daily life. The justifiable anger, the rage I should have had and DID have, spread into and over things like traffic jams, or losing a shoe, or just not being able to open the peanut butter jar. Not a healthy way to live.

While I never considered myself and angry person, I too have had problems understanding the source of my anger, then directing and controlling it appropriately.

Strangely enough, the level of turmoil in my life has never been higher, yet because of the amount of self-discovery I've achieved as a result, I'm less likely to fly off the handle about little things because I know the source of my anger...I understand it.

I deal with incredibly stressful issues at work, yet have never been calmer in the face of raging storms all around me...kinda nice!

Quote
I considered that the idea of forgiving was a threat to me in the sense that I would have to release the events, and in the process, lose "who I was".

Yes!

I have been self-righteous in the past that, in the words of Colin Powell, I allowed my ego to get to close to my position, and so I would fight to the death not to be "wrong"

Not so anymore...at least about anything other than WW's A.

Quote
It's hard to put boundaries on anger, because when it is "big" anger, with a deep hurt behind it, and we let ourselves freely vent and feel and rage and just go with gay abandon, well...we can end up fueling it instead of letting it out and having it "be done". I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe we teach ourselves how to be angry when we vent too much, and it's too easy to learn how to be angry. We get really good at being angry, and then we use that skill too much, and inappropriately.

Yes, I've gotten much better at this too...I've taken the "ego" out of the anger, and used it not to conduct personal attacks, but to speak clearly and forcefully cut through the bs of the A justifications, etc.

It's allowed me to break through my natural tendency to avoid conflict...God I wish I'd allowed myself to feel this at the beginning, but I was just so afraid my anger would "push" her away...typical JV move.

Quote
I can see myself as angry and forgiving at the same time.

Me too...and I thought I was nuts...Glad I'm not alone.

Thanks SB,

L2F
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/04/08 06:00 AM
Great day...tomorrow's my B'day!

Spent some time at the bookstore browsing and listening to music.

I didn't even pick up a single "relationship" book...a first!

Can't wait to see my kids!
Posted By: johnstwin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/04/08 06:53 AM
Happy Bday L2F!

I'm behind you in the bday department by 1 year and 18 days....( saw your signature line on Queenie's thread).

Hope you have a fantastic time with your kids and have some more great weather. I love it when spring finally arrives around here.

If you get a chance, you should head out to the Tulip Festival in my neck of the world. The week-end of the street fair is great fun, and there's lots of good food in town.

Without the Tulip Fest all we could lay claim to is being the world's largest provider of frozen peas. smile
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/04/08 01:19 PM
Thanks JT!

I know the Tulip festival well.

Spent most of my summers as a child on Camano Island...driving through Stanwood and by the Twin City Foods plant.

We certainly live in one of the most beautiful parts of the world, don't we?!

Have a wonderful day!

L2F
Posted By: WhoMe Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/04/08 01:23 PM
Hi L2F,

Have a great birthday tomorrow.

Quote
I didn't even pick up a single "relationship" book...a first!

LOL, A couple of months ago I was clearing off the book shelf in DD2's room in preparation of tearing down wall paper and painting, and I was actually shocked by the number of infidelity, affair recovery, boundary, type books that I have collected. We BS here could all join together and open a broken hearts bookstore.

Who
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/17/08 11:18 PM
Quote
We BS here could all join together and open a broken hearts bookstore

smile

...all the books I've read have pretty much backed up all I've read and heard here on MB...

Been gone a little while and am currently on leave. Came home and WW stayed at the house (spare bedroom) for a couple of nights while going to work.

Unlike the previous year, she was pleasant while in the house together and we even had a couple of meals together.

We sat and watched some TV and she was positively chatty...

What up???

I know that she continues some form of contact w/ loserboy, the extent is unknown.

I don't want to have ANY expectations at this point, but her behavior was just so totally unexpected...I mean she was NICE, for goodness sake!...

Someone please weigh in and help me to not mess it up, one way or the other at this point...
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/18/08 02:13 AM
Ahhhhh...trying to figure out a wayward is like trying to nail jello to wall, L2F! There could be several reasons...

Most likely, she has sensed that your "give-a-[censored]" machine is broken- and when THAT happens, all of a sudden, the wayward does a bit of an about face. All this time, she has likely felt you were pining for her, etc. Now she realizes your changes and has taken notice.

Another possible reason is that she is about to lower some sort of boom on you...D papers, LSA making you move out of the house, etc. This makes a far-gone wayward positively giddy as they feel they have the upper hand against the "monster" that is their husband/wife. Sort of the *singing* "I know something you don't know..." kind of crap.

Yet another reason is that while you were away, she got her fix big-time and is content for a while.

Once again...focus on yourself, because you are the only one who makes any sense...lol! Keep doing what makes you happy!!

By the way--don't know if I've told you this, but...thank you for serving our country, sir! You are a hero in many ways. Keep your head held high!!

And God Bless ya!
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/18/08 02:55 AM
LaLa!

Good to hear from you...and thanks for the thanks! I'm happy to serve...it's something that gives me both great pride and humility.

Yeah, you're right about trying to figure her out...just didn't want ME to do something stupid.

I'm leaning towards the first possibility, only b/c she doesn't doesn't have the time to make such a legal plan.

Also, it's unlikely she's gotten a "fix", b/c she's been busy w/ kids.

I could be totally wrong, however...

On a separate note, in the last 30 minutes I got two phone calls.

Call 1 was an old female friend of WW in another state and she hung up when I answered. I called her back and asked if she needed WW's cell number (she's left for the weekend already). I had confided in this friend some time ago and she gave me very good "christian" advice. Then, she started emailing WW telling her that she wished I'd stop emailing...wow.

Then, just a few minutes ago, WW's mom called and, among other things, let me know that WW's grandmother was planning to take WW out of her will and wanted me to know...just what am I supposed to do w/ THAT info??

Quote
...focus on yourself, because you are the only one who makes any sense

Ain't that the truth? Life is truly stranger than fiction...I'm just trying to enjoy my life here and there's nothing but craziness all around me.

Had a good day doing some yardwork...it's beautiful here in the northwest, even if spring IS late... smirk
Posted By: WhoMe Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/18/08 12:32 PM
L2F,

Just stopping in to say "hey." Glad to see you back on the board. Enjoy your leave. I was supposed to be on leave today but cancelled it. It's going to be sunny and 80 degrees today so now I wished I was still going to be off.

Oh Well.

Soon, in only 3 1/2 months, I'll be on transition leave!

Best,

Who
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/18/08 05:44 PM
Howdy Who!

3 1/2 months, but who's counting... wink

What will you do next?

WW is now reading "The Truth about Love", by Dr Patricia Love...one of the many books on my Lonely Hearts bookshelf.

...hmmmmm

I often wonder when she's reading these books (a couple of weeks ago it was Chapman's "Five Love Languages") if it's for OUR marriage, to learn something for herself, or to regain the "spark" in her affair...kinda drives me nuts.

Really wrestled with the news about her grandmas's will...yet another example of the far-reaching consequences the she's blind to or just won't face. It makes me so very sad.

DS just gets more and more angry at WW. We were walking the dog yesterday and he was venting about how much of a hypocrite WW is. Just not sure how to respond to that one...I want him to build a good relationship with her, and yet she is the one LB'ing HIM with her ongoing independant behavior and DJs.

I'll soon be gone for 2 straight months and am going to take both kids to a counseling session next week in preparation.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/22/08 07:11 PM
Hey there...just a quick update.

I'm home on leave through the end of next weekend then gone for 2 months.

WW has been in the house during the week the last two weeks while iv'e been here and is exceedingly pleasant...almost like she's waiting for some shoe to drop...from me.

I emailed her some time ago and she still hasn't responded. I asked her about it and she claimed she'd not read it, that she NEVER checks that email (her personal one) anymore. Well, I have a pretty good sense that that's not the case and that she's avoiding the primary issue I brought up, that being my need for transparency as my fundamental boundary.

I told her that she could go to the sent items of our joint email and left it at that.

I was out of town w/ the kids yesterday evening and I could easily see with a couple of "back" clicks that she'd read them then marked them unread... (rolley eyes icon)

This morning again she's as pleasant as ever.

Here's my conundrum:

I'm going to be gone and "need" some kind of closure...for ME. At this stage, no matter what she's doing, what she's thinking doesn't so much matter as my KNOWING what it is does...if that makes sense.

I do NOT want to be gone for 2 months "wondering" if she's going to go see him, texting him, etc., etc. If she makes that choice, then fine...I'll proceed w/ Plan B and file for D.

Thing is, I'm almost getting the sense that the fog is lifting...ever so slowly, and the person I've been able to be in the last months...specifically some OUTSTANDING plan A'ing over the last 2 weeks...has shown her just how great this can be.

I don't want to mess this up...someone PLEASE give me some inputs/ideas how to proceed here in the coming days before my departure.

Do I have R talk (face to face)? Doing it through email has allowed her to feel "safer", and doesn't associate my "agenda" with my face...

I truly wonder if she's starting to come around...

Do I just continue plan A for the remainder of the week and also from afar?

My tendency to need action is clouding my judgment here...HELP PLEASE!!!

L2F
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/22/08 07:22 PM
Are you off to undisclosed locations?

I'm a former tanker guy. Best of luck to you out there or wherever you're heading.

I think I'd be a wreck if I deployed with my W cheating on me and if I knew that to be the case.

It may be time to lay it on the table and get that closure for your own sake while you are there. You need to know one way or the other while you're gone or your distractions could have disasterous consequences.

Are you part of a crew or in single seat?

In a single seat you could be terribly distracted and have a terrible consequence as a result.

A crew can back you up, but you may be a hinderance.

I wish you the best in every respect and hope your W pulls her head out.

This is a terrible hole to have open and I hope it works out for you.

Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/22/08 07:29 PM
Pomdbd3,

Thanks for the reply!

We'll be near conus, not overseas, and I can be in phone contact w/ her and the kids on a frequent basis.

Quite honestly, I'm pretty darned good at compartmentalization and was deployed w/in Iraq with the full knowledge of what was going on and was not a danger to myself or others. Now in my FREE time, I obsessed big time...tried to fill up my free time as much as possible.

Not currently aviating, in more of an operational oversight role. Don't need to worry about me rolling inverted and pulling wink
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/22/08 07:38 PM
L2F:

What, just WHAT makes you think that she is committed to the marriage?

Did I miss something?

On March 30, you gave her a double barrel dose of what you really thought.

And it seems that it has been forced smiles ever since.

Your going away for two months. She can survive just about anything until next week, because she gets two months to play.

And there is nothing you can do about it.

That's why they call it an addiction.

She gets her crack when your ship sails. In the meantime, she is paying for it.

Accept that the only thing that can happen is that she does the right thing. And that only SHE can do that. It really is up to her at this point.

If she can't keep her pants on for two months, than thats her choice. And you can proceed accordingly.

LG
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/22/08 07:54 PM
LG, all true.

The feeling is that in the last few weeks she has spent time talking to me, being with me, going out to dinner w/ me and the kids, has appeared more comfortable w/ me than in a very long time...going on 6 months.

OBTW, when I'm gone, it makes her going to see OM pretty much impossible as I'm not home "babysitting" on the weekends. He's not near, so it would continue to be a long distance relationship during that time.

Quote
Accept that the only thing that can happen is that she does the right thing. And that only SHE can do that. It really is up to her at this point.

Absolutely, and I get that, I truly do. The thing I'm wrestling w/ is the lack of honesty...something I need in order to make informed decisions about my life based on the truth.

What I'm asking is if I should force the issue now or let her process on the changes she's actually been able to see in me since she's actually been around?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/22/08 08:27 PM
Another way of looking at it is that I'm paying attention to her ACTIONS, and she's appeared to have moved significantly from withdrawal to engagement with me...

What I'm looking for is some mentoring/coaching so that I do and say the RIGHT THINGS at this critical juncture...TMTS's thread comes to mind and I'd sure appreciate some good advice at this point!

Bueller?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 05:45 AM
...Bueller???

Hey folks, I'm leaving for two months in just under a week and would surely like some input based on WW's recent apparent change in behavior.

Short version for those not up to speed:

I've spent much time away over the last couple of years, including a command tour in Iraq.

WW's A is well past it's peak, but just what its state is is unclear at this point.

WW feels it's none of my business, and b/c of my spying a long time ago, is very secretive.

MC (whom I've long since fired due to her utter lack of understanding of the mechanics and psychology of infidelity) led WW to believe that she didn't need to tell me where she was going when she left.

I work in another city during the week and come home on weekends...WW routinely leaves to go to area in vicinity of OM, but possibly to spend time w/ OM's M. This has made Plan A pretty darn difficult.

WW has been very withdrawn from me for a long time...

Since reaching my own point of "enough is enough", I sent her an email letting her know as much and that my two boundaries are that she stop seeing OM and that she starts being transparent.

Call it a "pre Plan B Letter"

Since then she's been as nice as can be, but has not responded to my "ultimatum".

No R talk while we've been together...just enjoying not fighting and feeling like she's not "fleeing" when I'm around...she's been positively chatty...

Vets, where are you...I could really, really use some advice here PLEASE!!!

Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 12:50 PM
L2F,

Don't roll inverted and pull!

So you must be a single seater. Rolling the 135 isn't impossible (Chuck Johnson did it to show it off) but it would certainly not be looked too kindly on. smile

I think it's hard for others to give you feedback because you have such a short time.

I suggest going romantic and making the most of the time you have left. A Super Plan A with lots of attention to her and silly little romantic things that will have her thinking of you.

Perhaps you can hide little notes all over the house that she'll find over the months as she goes about her business.

So put them in her outfits, her glove compartment, the shade of her car, and other nooks and crannies where she'll find them while you're gone. Make them funny or cute or affectionate.

Other than that, I don't know what else to tell you other than make the most of it before you go.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 01:59 PM
Pomdbd3,

I like the idea of notes...unless I'm totally reading her wrong about her possible change of heart. Then, they'd just be the unwanted gift that would keep on giving...for 2 months...and I couldn't undo it. See my problem?

I'm thinking I'm truly afraid at this point to have this conversation with her because I'm letting expectations creep in...

Any other ideas??!!
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 02:13 PM
hi Fly

Plan A is to remind the WS of what an excellent spouse you can be.

Plan B is to (a) protect the BS from the hurtful chaos of an active affair) and (b) show the WS what life will be like without the BS in it in any way.

As I understand it a good plan A is well indicated before plan B'ing unless you are so broken by your WS hurtful behaviour that you cannot remain in contact.

So in your case, if you can spend enough time with your W to plan A effectively then run a six week tight plan A with boundaries in place.

That is you are the best spouse you can be but make it clear that to uphold your dignity you cannot remain for long in an environment where your W was untrustworthy and having an affair ( and whatever your personal boundaries are).

Then if your W is not meeting those boundaries fully in SIX WEEKS you go very dark immediately ( having planned that during plan A of course).

Know that your W is a true cake-eater and will try all kinds of crap to try to prevent you from going and staying dark.

What you think ?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 03:24 PM
Thanks for the reply, Bob! How's the weather in my native country??

Quote
Plan A is to remind the WS of what an excellent spouse you can be.

That's what I'm finally getting a chance to do now that she's around during the week...and so am I (too bad I can't be on leave forever...)

So much of my "Plans" have been driven by the tough realities of my job.

In total, I will have been home for 2 weeks straight before I leave for 2 months. During this time I was Plan A'ing like a pro...no expectations, loving yet detached, meeting whatever need I could divine, yet not pushing.

I've been cooking, I've been patient, I've been thoughtful and just downright nice. This is the person I've become, and doing it doesn't really take much effort anymore. I could do this for a very long time...as could she, evidently as you're right, she's cake eating big time.

My problem is that I'm torn about how/if to broach the "OK, so let's talk about my boundaries" talk...I need some coaching on how to do it, what to say, what not to say, etc.

Or, do I just Plan A like crazy now, then leave, continue carrying on the best Plan A I can while gone...then when I get back, reevaluate?

I'm getting a little antsy...something that always happens before going away for awhile...
Posted By: pomdbd3 Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 03:30 PM
Just sit her down and talk it out. Unfortunately, military life forces us to put things on the table sooner than we would like.

But don't be afraid to.

Let her know how difficult it will be for you to deploy without resolving this in one way or another and see what she has to say.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 03:51 PM
Well, at least the emails are no longer marked as unread, so she's seen them and isn't hiding the fact.

Guess I'll have this conversation tonight...any tips? Flowers, candy??
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 04:03 PM
Quote
My problem is that I'm torn about how/if to broach the "OK, so let's talk about my boundaries" talk...I need some coaching on how to do it, what to say, what not to say, etc.

Well, I didn't talk about them directly.

When Squid did a hurtful thing ( such as lying or sneaking to contact OM) I'd say "I love you and I am willing to work as hard as I can to rebuild a great marriage with you, baby, but not at the expense of my dignity. I felt that *thing you did* was very hurtful to me and I can't take a lot more of it , partly because it hurts me and partly because thats' not in my idea of "great marriage" behaviour. Just so you know. This is just MY view, you should do whatever you think is right".

no threats, no demands.
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 04:07 PM
Thanks for that Bob...

I tend to be somewhat "direct", and your method is so very much less threatening...thanks!

L2F
Posted By: star*fish Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 04:09 PM
L2F,

I remember being in a situation where I had to accept a temporary separation during my marriage (almost a year because of an unplanned pregnancey). Separation is never ideal for a marriage, but it's especially difficult while trying to do a good Plan A, because showing the marriage to the best advantage is next impossible if you don't see each other. There are things you can do to remain connected.....and I'll talk about those in a second, but the reality is that when you leave....you've got to find some peace in the "detachment" of separation otherwise you'll feel panicky, fearful, jealous and you'll lovebust all over the place.

*Accept certain limitations.....your ability to check up on her, distract her, interact with her face to face....will be gone. Concentrate on what you can do or you'll be tortured with worry over what she's doing instead of what you can do.

*Ultimata don't work anyway....they're all about controlling what somebody else is doing. Boundaries work because they are about controlling what you're doing. You can't make your wife be faithful, but you can be more attractive man and a man who won't tolerate having a third person in their marriage.

*Like a parent who has to do the best they can to raise their child and then let go and allow them to do the right thing....you're having to let go before you're ready. The best you can do is to reinforce what's good and right and hope that when you can no longer check up on her, that it's enough for her to act ethically.

*Lay it at the cross. You will not be in a position to be as influencial as you could be if you were there. You can't help that right now (although I hope in the future you will choose a profession that doesn't put your marriage at so much risk), but there are times when you have to let go of the outcome and trust God to take over. You've done what you can to show your good faith, and your willingness to forgive....but now the ball is in your wife's court. With God's help....she will remain strong while you are gone.

*Encourage the supporters you have to help her.

*Make a point of regular contact and be creative in physical absence by doing what you can to fill emotional needs like admiration, conversation, etc online and by phone.

*Consider this a break for you. While you may be fearful, it can sometimes be very soothing to get a break from the constant involvement in the chaos a wayward produces. If you can detach, this can be a time for you to rebuild your own esteem and it's a great buffer for lovebusters. While you're gone....if you can fill small needs from afar....and not LB you have a big opportunity to really raise the balance over at the Fidelity Bank of Trust and Love. Meanwhile...the OM can lovebust to smithereens.

*Since secrecy feeds affairs....the availability of the affair can both help AND hurt the chances. If the affair is winding down anyway, there's a chance more contact will hasten the end.

If I think of anything else....I'll add it.

Please be safe!! You will be missed.
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 04:10 PM
I'm direct too, but this way is much more honest than demanding.

Every word I sad was true, lots of me I statements, no attempt to coerce or redirect the WS... and it worked.

See I didn't want a spouse who avoided hurting me because they were afraid to lose the house, I wanted a spouse who WANTED to avoid hurting me because she loved me.

You know what your personal boundaries are ?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 04:24 PM
Quote
You know what your personal boundaries are ?

My primary boundary, it turns out, is transparency. Her deceit, while it may be a defense mechanism to her, is a huge lovebuster because of the lack of consideration and respect that it shows towards me.

Oddly enough, her establishing/maintaining NC is second.

If she's transparent, then I can make decisions about my life based on the truth.

If she chooses to see him, etc., that's her choice, but I firmly believe I deserve to know exactly what her intentions are.

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I didn't want a spouse who avoided hurting me because they were afraid to lose the house, I wanted a spouse who WANTED to avoid hurting me because she loved me.

...sigh...
I'm here, L2F...just very down. Put my dog to sleep today. I will be back later on...been thinking on your sitch since yesterday. Hang in there!!!

((((((((((((((L2F)))))))))))))))
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 04/23/08 04:49 PM
Star*fish...thanks for the reply...very thoughtful, as usual!

Quote
the reality is that when you leave....you've got to find some peace in the "detachment" of separation otherwise you'll feel panicky, fearful, jealous and you'll lovebust all over the place.
Oh, yeah...BTDT, got a closet full of T-shirts...

I'm in a much different place than I was in my earlier days...growing less and less fearful...accepting that what is, is.

I used to check up on her...I don't anymore

Part of my plan A has been gifts of service...for example, making dinner, doing all the "mom" stuff to get her and kids out of the house in the morning...something I hope comes back and reminds her of me when I'm gone...

About ultimata...in it's strictest sense, a Plan B letter is an ultimatum, is it not?

If I tell her that my personal boundary is that she be completely transparent with me, and state, like in a PBL, that if not, I will no longer have any direct contact with her...isn't that an ultimatum?

If you've read my earlier stuff, you know that my WW is a conflict avoider (like I'm not...) and has already stated she "doesn't want to be married anymore". This is why I tread lightly...it's like a fish on a very thin line.

I can mix in a few more metaphors there for a small fee... smile

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Make a point of regular contact and be creative in physical absence by doing what you can to fill emotional needs like admiration, conversation, etc online and by phone.

Yes...I've been doing that w/ texts and phone calls...completely without expectation...giving. I give her all kinds of strokes for the great things she does every day, talk w/ her, listen to her, etc. I can continue to do that from afar.

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Encourage the supporters you have to help her

Yes! This was something I've been thinking of as well. Gotta be careful not to come across like a whacked out nutjob, though. Most people not familiar w/ MB tend to shy away from any direct involvement and do not understand the counter-intuitive nature of what we do here...
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Consider this a break for you. While you may be fearful, it can sometimes be very soothing to get a break from the constant involvement in the chaos a wayward produces. If you can detach, this can be a time for you to rebuild your own esteem and it's a great buffer for lovebusters. While you're gone....if you can fill small needs from afar....and not LB you have a big opportunity to really raise the balance over at the Fidelity Bank of Trust and Love. Meanwhile...the OM can lovebust to smithereens.

This is all so true. Whenever I'm back at work, I'm in my element and love it! I get tons of satisfaction from a job well done and those I work w/ appreciate me as much as I appreciate them...a good fit, just doesn't take the place of a marriage, ya know?

Last summer I told her to "move in w/ him"...her reply was "I'm not leaving my kids"... I honestly know that things would NOT work out w/ them long term, and I know she knows it too.

But, she keeps coming back to the "but I don't want to be married to you" tune...hence the need for Plan A!

OBTW, she hasn't said that in quite awhile, but then again, I haven't pushed...an uncomfortable truce...

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Please be safe!! You will be missed

Thanks for that...As I said to Pom, my role is pretty safe, and I also will have access to MB, so I can still be here for help/support!

Thanks again for the great stuff...I will go back and reread it, as well as my whole thread when I get a quiet moment.

L2F
((((((((LaLa))))))))))

I'm so very sorry for your loss...

Just remember how good a life your pet had and how much love it soaked up and gave back to you over the years...you'll always have that!

L2F
(((((((((LaLa)))))))))) I'm sorry about the loss of your dog. frown

L2F,

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About ultimata...in it's strictest sense, a Plan B letter is an ultimatum, is it not?

If I tell her that my personal boundary is that she be completely transparent with me, and state, like in a PBL, that if not, I will no longer have any direct contact with her...isn't that an ultimatum?

The short answer is...."No" lol, but let me explain.

*Ulitmata are about controlling someone else.

*Boundaries are about setting limits on what's tolerable for you and protecting yourself.

While they are they very different, they are sometimes "recieved" by a wayward spouse as similar. There's nothing you can do about that, however, one creates peace and confidence for YOU and the other gives power and control to someone too foggy to know what to do with it.

Setting a boundary is not making a threat. It is about communicating clearly what the consequences will be if the other person continues with unacceptable behavior toward us. Setting a boundary is not an attempt to control others (though you’ll surely be accused of that, just as some will interpret a boundary as a threat) - it is part of the process of defining what is acceptable to us. It is a major step in defining for ourselves how we will allow others to treat us. It is, in fact, a critical step in taking 100% responsibility for our lives.

The difference between setting a boundary and manipulation is when we set a boundary, we let go of the outcome.

Big difference.

Manipulation sets conditions and consequences to elicit desired behavior. A “do this, or else” situation. Setting a boundary informs of consequences for unacceptable behavior. A “you do this, expect this, no matter what” situation. The difference is the “no matter what” part. It’s not conditional. It’s where letting go of the outcome is required.

And the outcomes we have to let go of include people leaving our lives, others being upset or angry with us, and all manner of other outcomes we really don’t want.

You can’t set a boundary and try to control the outcome, too. That’s manipulation.

Plan B is not about manipulation. It's about removing yourself from the chaos created by the wayward and protecting yourself and the love you still have left.

You can't tell her that YOUR personal boundary is HER transparency because that's not about you....it's about her. Well you can....but it won't be a boundary. smile

You CAN tell her that you aren't interested in a marriage that isn't founded on mutual transparency and that it's one of the elements that clearly demonstrates sincerity in your world. Let her know that her lack of transparency will in turn create doubt and suspicion. The natural consequence of those things is disconnection and eventually it will hurt you so badly that you won't be able to tolerate it at all. Make sure she understands that you can't control what she does, and that you don't want to....BUT you CAN control what you're willing tolerate or how willing you are to give her access to hurt you more.

I'm SOOOOOOO confused... crazy

And to think I had a handle on this boundary thing...

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While they are they very different, they are sometimes "recieved" by a wayward spouse as similar

The fact that I'm not clear myself on the difference contributes to the prob as well...
Quote
*Ulitmata are about controlling someone else.

*Boundaries are about setting limits on what's tolerable for you and protecting yourself.

My desire is for her to stop seeing OM.

My boundary is that unless she is willing to do so and be honest with me about it I can't let myself have further contact with her.

That feels like an ultimatum. I guess that's what defines the difference...my intent.

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The difference between setting a boundary and manipulation is when we set a boundary, we let go of the outcome.

OK, I'm willing to let her do whatever she wants...it's her life. My life, however, requires honesty from those I deal with, or I will stop dealing with them.

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make sure she understands that you can't control what she does, and that you don't want to....

I think I've tried to do that...but again, because of the similar nature of a boundary and ultimatum...my communication of it is what's key.

I need to print your post out and read it a few times...
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My boundary is that unless she is willing to do so and be honest with me about it I can't let myself have further contact with her.

That feels like an ultimatum. I guess that's what defines the difference...my intent.

Nah....you get it just fine. grin

Yes, that is a boundary. It feels like an ultimatum but you're right there are a few things that differentiate the two.

*intent....What is your motive? Are you really giving up the out come? Are you really giving up control?

*language....Boundaries are *I* based.....Threats are *you* based.

*punishment....Threats and manipulation always imply punishment. Do this "or else" I'll do something to you....reject you, divorce you, leave you. Boundaries are making life choices that don't include your spouse. You aren't rejecting them, you're detaching from them and making you're centered on your own healthy choices rather than exacting punishment for her bad choices.

SF, thanks again! I truly appreciate your taking the time to walk me through this...you've given me much to ponder.

I really am prepared for whatever the outcome is, I just don't want to negativly influence it by doing it wrong... Will have to write it out and use a lot of "I"...

So much of the communication btwn me and WW over the years has been marred by lack of due care in the packaging of the message.

I'm working SO hard to get past those old tapes and with all of your help I just might get there... smile

Thanks, L2F
As a FWW what I see is that she's cake eating a bit and that she knows you're about to be gone for two months. She'll have an easier time emailing and phone calling without you around- which still leaves him time to meet some emotional needs. Even if she can't go see him. Just as you'll be trying to do so.

Are you sure she doesn't have anyone to help with the kids while
you're gone?

It's that or she's thinking that you guys can remain "friends".

Is she touching you or giving you any affection without you initating??

Hey CW, thanks so much for your insight...

No, she's not initiating anything...but then again, hasn't really since we had kids... frown and that was a LONG time ago. On the other hand, she does not turn down offers of foot rubs...

Obviously no SF, and was a sore point for both of us. For me I just assumed that it was something she didn't really want and I just suppressed my own needs. She saw it, on the other hand, as a rejection of her...and tubed her self-esteem.

Piss poor communication is what led to where we are now...

I'm sure she want's to be "friends", no matter what happens, but right now, if she's still going to lie and cheat, that's not acceptable to me.

Yes, it will be easier for her to contact him, but I really do get the sense that their "thing", whatever it now is, is not so much romance (and hasn't been for some time) as it is a habit. Is it still a PA? Don't really know, but I'm kinda doubting it.

(DJ alert) OM is truly a flake, and as the honeymoon is over, she's been seeing that more and more.

As for someone helping w/ kids...they're older - 14/15 - and know all about what has happened, so their being "shipped off" to someone's place sets off their alarms...and she knows that.

Pretty much all of our friends know what's going on, so her enlisting their help would result in questions she wouldn't want to answer.

These past coupla weeks have been really nice...no expectations, and I have just been able to be nice to her in a natural way. No "forced smiles", just happy to see her...hence my reluctance to burst the bubble w/ "reality"...
Excerpts from a recent email to WW (2 days ago):

Quote
Our single, most insurmountable problem has been our inability to fully communicate. No doubt my last email(s) have left a huge opportunity for misunderstanding to creep in and the desired result might therefore be missed by a country mile.

While it may appear so to you, my goal is NOT, and has never been, to make you feel guilt, to make you unhappy, to make you "pay".

My single greatest desire is to build a strong, loving, fulfilling life with you, for you and our kids. No matter how hard it may be, there is no endeavor more worth the effort.


In my opinion, one of the biggest impediments to movement (in any direction) is your lack of transparency. My impression is that you feel that due to your stated lack of interest in continuing the marriage, an honest and open discussion of the facts is irrelevant. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Perhaps you think that "too much has happened"...I don't know.

For example, it appears you believe that my not knowing exactly what the state of your relationship is with OM is ok. It's not. Your withholding this important information is simply disrespectful. I have the fundamental right to know the facts about my life, and what my wife-the mother of my children-is doing with another man is relevant to my life and the lives of my kids.

...secrets of this magnitude have earthshattering consequences. Withholding this information isn't protecting me, you or them, it's causing uncertainty, anxiety and a lack of control over our own lives.

As I see it, there are a number of possibilities:

1) The two of you are as active as ever.

2) You are "waiting" for a divorce before continuing with him, but are still in routine contact.

3) He has pulled back and now you're pursuing him

4) He's got another girlfriend

5) You've got another boyfriend

5) You've finally recognized what a shallow flake he is and are kicking yourself around the block for your lack of judgment and taste (a realization I fully support, by the way... wink )

6) You've decided you're gay

7) You've got an incurable STD

8) You just have no idea what to do and are completely stuck

8) ...insert your own here...

The point is, it doesn't matter [i]what's
going on, your children and I can only make assumptions, and those assumptions are tearing us apart. You shouldn't think for a moment that our not knowing gives any of us peace. You can't manage any of us by managing how much we know...that's simply not fair.

...
You are taking away my freedom of choice by not being honest with me.

Do you really think the truth could possibly be any worse than my imagination???

After all I already know and all I've imagined, trust me, I can handle it.
...
God knows I let my own arrogance and ignorance steer me in the wrong direction, but I KNOW that you've seen the change in me...a change that began many years ago, when it was so clear that you were unhappy, and I was absolutely powerless to understand how I could help.
...
What I have understood, however, is that while I can't make you happy, I can do my best to fulfill your emotional needs, and stop those behaviors that are detrimental to our well-being. The key is to communicate openly and honestly so that we know what eachothers needs are!
...
There's no such thing as too late...that's when one of us is dead. Until then, there's happiness to be sought...for our whole family.
...
I don't pretend for one moment that I've got this thing figured out...far from it. What I do know, however, is that giving up without us ever really having tried is just self-sabotage.

SO...where does that leave us? What I need is transparency from you. I need you to take a chance and do the hard thing and be honest with me about all things...something I know will be very hard, but something you will not regret.

If, however, your lack of honesty is due to some continued scheming that is not in either my or our family's best interest, I also deserve to know so that I can rapidly and finally move on.

The ball is in your court.[/i]
I read this stuff now, and realize how stilted it is...I sure wish this was easier... frown

Any comments? Any damage control required??
One of our major problems over the years has been her management of money...I earn it and she spends it, and then some.

Just the other day I answered a call from a collections agency that she'd been fending off, apparently. I let her know about the call and asked if it was a legit debt. She said yes and I said OK and that if she'd give me the info I'd take care of it. (This debt was not connected to A in any way, so I had no problem w/ it)

Why this is significant is because what didn't happen is that I didn't blow up...and I think that surprised her. My intent was to get her to realize that telling the unpleasant truth does not have to result in unpleasantness...

...we'll see.
L2F,

I really liked your letter.....how did she recieve it? What was her feedback.
Thanks SF,

Well, she hasn't responded... I've written her volumes over the last couple of years, and the only time she responds is when she finds something to take issue with...

We're in two separate universes...
I also like the letter, I hope you get a positive response. I see that you can still respond to her with a healthy sense of humor.

Thanks for the feedback Jim!

Gotta keep a sense of humor here...cause it's so nuts.

Forget who it was, but someone here said that the reason she kept her WH around was because she was curious to see what the h#ll would fly out of his mouth next...LMAO at that one... laugh

Like I said, no reponse...last night was kinda busy and opportunity to talk w/ WW didn't present itself until I was back from picking up DD from a sports match, and by that time WW had already had a couple of glasses of wine... I've made it a hard and fast rule that I will not have any serious discussions if she's even slightly under the influence.

I'm going to meet her for lunch and broach subject.

Wish me luck!
How did lunch go?

OK, I'm just laughing as I write this...

So, I don't get an answer at WWs work number all morning and leave messages. She finally calls back from her cell saying she ended up leaving work because she felt "sick to her stomach"...of course she's not sick enough to NOT drive 3+ hours to go over the mountains!

Unbelievable!

I asked her if this was her answer to my question and she said "no, but can I PLEASE call you back, I'm not feeling well..."

Waiting for her return call and sitting here wondering how I'm not going to LB the heck out of her...

Frickin alien....
OK, I'm not laughing anymore...

I'm really trying to think of what to say other than a verbal Plan B letter...

The problem is, without her honesty about what's going on w/ her, she could just as well be spending the weekends w/ OM's M because she's "safe", and the A is long over...

I'm looking for the strength and wisdom to think before I speak and measure my words oh so carefully....
Does the OM live with his mother on the Eastside? Is that what I understand?
She says no, but the return address on the letter from him says otherwise.

So, do I pack up the kids and drive over there this weekend???
Maybe it should come to a head.

BTW I'm all packed ready to go to the westside in the morning.
You want a little chuckle?

FWW just called and said make sure I bring a few books she asked me to bring Mars and Venus in the Bedroom. Said we could read it together boy am I lucky.
Care to stop by Richland and take some photos...? wink

Quote
Maybe it should come to a head.

Absolutely...I have tried to focus on WW and not OM, but if I drive over the mountains and confront WW, OM, OM's M with the reality of WW's family, that would be great from the vantage point of killing whatever R they have.

...on the other hand, it could make me look like a psycho...making them all nod their heads and say to WW "no wonder you want to leave him..."

I have wanted to be face-to-face w/ OM for a long time (but didn't know where he lived until recently), but that kind of confrontation would scare the bejeeezzus out of my kids, I'm guessing.

Maybe I should just ask them what they want to do...

In reality, I'm NOT the Jerry Springer type...and have just felt truly grimy after having any interaction with anything to do w/ OM.

Am feeling a surprising sense of elation at recognizing that her "answer" is actually going to finally free me....!
Unfortunately I don't have to go through Richland from Wenatchee but it would be fun.

I know that I have to return to Wenatchee lots of times to get my house sold and visit my our oldest son here and Grandchildren but to be honest I hate Eastern Wa.

You R correct it would be awful for your kids. Can you leave them with someone?

Sounds like you R Navy is that correct I thought you might be FT. Lewis. Regardless we must get together sometime.

I do wish your WW would comes to her senses. I guess I am becoming one of the lucky ones.

God Bless my friend
Enjoy your drive Jim, it's absolutely beautiful on this side today!

Anchors Aweigh!
Hey all, quick update...or lack of update...

So WW said she'd call, then had to get off the phone the other day (while enroute to OM's locale) because she felt sick to her stomach.

I said I was very sorry she felt ill, but that had nothing to do with her choice to get on the freeway for 3+ hours instead of being at work (claims she went in and then told them she was sick).

I said there was a question on the table that she's not answering...she said she'd call back.

No call....

I text her "When can I expect a call? Was hoping that we could have gotten together before I leave for 2 months."

She calls back 5 hours later and starts in with "didn't you get the part where I had raging diahrea?" (you know, best defense is a good offense?)

I said "yes, and I am very sorry you feel bad, but that makes it just that much more curious that you should choose to drive to OMM's house, rather than come home..."

Her "gotta go"

She texts me with "Don't want 2 argue. At OMM's. She bought tix 4 this weekend so I just wanted 2 get here and rest."

What the heck does that mean??????

I call her straight back - she doesn't answer - and I leave this message:

"WW, I am sorry you don't feel well. You've read my email. You know I need you to be straight with me."

I follow up with a text: "Here's an example of the honesty I'm looking for..."I am with OMM...I don't see OM anymore", OR "I'm with OM right now." It's just not that hard."

OK, I'm pushing...but what in the heck do you do with someone who will look you in the eye and completely ignore a straight question???

Or in her case, refuse to look me in the eye???

Kids and I are going to the fair today...a little cotton candy and roller coasters will do wonders!
Hey L2F!

Sounds like you're about to ship out... and it sounds like Mrs. L2F is still in lala-land. Sorry to hear that.

I just wanted to pop in and say Hi! I actually got back to my room before 2000hrs this evening... a new record!

If you head over my way, be sure to look me up! (or at least wiggle your wings as you fly over! wink

Semper Fi,

RIF
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OK, I'm pushing...but what in the heck do you do with someone who will look you in the eye and completely ignore a straight question???
Remember they are a WAYWARD and incapable of any type of honesty that is what we recognize.

Hi L2F-

I hope you are enjoying the sun today!

It really doesn't do any good to push her to be honest or give you some kind of response. In the wayward mind, all that matters is their fantasy. My XH was so wrapped up in his A fantasy that he completely ignored the fact that his kids needed his reassurance while I was going through chemo.

He didn't even consider the fear that his children were feeling, having to take care of their mom while their dad was MIA.

He now has to deal with the damage he has caused, and he no longer as JT to help him figure out how.

Your WW is God's prodigal, not yours. He knows how to reach her much more creatively than any way you can think of-remember Jonah?

Enjoy the day!
Hey RIF, Queenie, JT, thanks for stopping by!

RIF, will be in CONUS for the 2 months of training, so I won't be in your neck of the woods for awhile.

Queenie, yeah I know that's what WWs do, but sometimes it still absolutely astounds me.

There's a great line by Kurt Russell to Mel Gibson ("Mac") in the movie Tequila Sunrise. Russell and Gibson are friends from high school but in the subsequent years Russell became a cop and Gibson a drug dealer. Russell's been aware of Gibson's activities for some time because of the unsurmountable evidence but has been looking the other way because of their friendship.

Finally, there's a confrontation and in the face of continued denials by Gibson, Russel finally says..."look, Mac, don't you get it ? ....you're caught!"

JT, had a great day yesterday! Had great time w/ the kids and got much done around the house....the house that I've done my best to make a home.

Nothing from WW...go figure.

My son had a friend over for a sleepover. His parents are divorced but both in the same town. His dad's a successful ER doc (not remarried), and the mom is younger and is now in an unhappy marriage to a much younger enlisted sailor. The friend made the offhand comment that she's "always mad". Then it hit me...obviously it's an affairage!

I then remembered that a couple of years ago, before I knew about WW and OM, WW had replied to some comment I had made about the kid's mom being kinda flaky, that she was sure the mom was happy because she had fallen in love... OMG, she was justifying her own A right in front of me and I didn't even realize it!!!

The kid's dad is a saint, and WW has even made vague comments about it...but his EXWW is "happy" and "in love"...???

Anyway, this woman is a piece of work...materialistic, alcoholic and b*tchy...I had an epiphany...so is my WW!!!

I was chuckling all day at the joke on me...

Anyway, it's Plan B time folks.

Will have one last conversation w/ WW...if she even shows up before I have to leave...and see if she'll budge one inch on the honesty thing.
Hi L2F-

I'm glad you got to enjoy the sun with your kids. Isn't it weird how the wayward brain works? There is no explaining it. Actually, I once saw a t-shirt that had a scientific formula with a stick figure in the middle of it that said "Science has proven it, the universe does indeed center around me." Maybe it's the wayward formula. Now if we could just figure out a way to reverse it...

I'll be up on the island at the Chief's Club for my YS's NJROTC awards dinner next week-end. I'll be praying for you as I go past the Prowlers out front-and then some.

BTW-my dad was a Navy Doc-retired from the reserves after 30 years.
Hi JT, thanks for the support!

Where was your Dad stationed??

That club has the best view on the island...hope the weather cooperates!

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"Science has proven it, the universe does indeed center around me."
laugh

Had a conversation w/ WW tonight that was interesting...

I gently kept returning to there being a question posed that she still hadn't answered.

She finally said "well, I'm not currently seeing him...but that doesn't mean that I won't ever see him again...I just don't know."

She said she hadn't seen him this weekend.

I asked about the return address and if he lives w/ his M or in the same city, but she said no, and that he just uses that as a "permanent" address (because basically this guy's a drifter...)

I said that with all due respect I didn't necessarily believe her because she's given me very "clear-eyed" explanations for things in the past that turned out to be totally false.

hmmmm.....

No "I don't want to be married to you...", but then again I didn't ask.

Her tone of voice when talking about him really did sound more "past tense" than it has before...

My being gone will prevent her from needing to "flee" to OMM's house...with the associated baggage.

She will now be spending weekends w/ kids...a good thing.

thoughts...?
Hey L2F,

What are you thinking and feeling?
Hey L2F

Well, when my dad was active duty, he was in Omaha (which I asked him about because I don't remember Omaha having any large bodies of water, but he did induction physicals). He was also stationed in Landstuhl, at an Army Hospital when lots of the Army docs were in MASH units during Korea. Go figure. All he ever wanted was to get on board a ship, and he ends up with the Army. smirk

He also was at Great Lakes. By the time I came around, it was week-end stuff and two weeks away and he'd come home in uniform. That was always cool. I liked the winter one the best.

He's enjoying being "retired" and going to the Navy at Bangor when my folks visit my sister over there.

It will be a great time no matter what the view. Last year my YS got a special award they only give one freshman (him) and one junior. His grandpa, grandma, me and older bro (ROTC Army at WSU) were there.
Queenie, thanks for pointing out the glaring lack of my own opinion about what happened... wink

What I'm thinking... WW is in withdrawal, and doesn't want to commit to anything at this point...perhaps due to pride (this woman has a HUGE chip on her shoulder).

I'm also thinking that the odds are even she's lying in order to avoid confrontation.

What I'm feeling...is that she's just stuck...

I have NO expectations, and at this point am trying to tread lightly...the way she spoke was calmer and had more of the feeling of honesty than anything she's said for a long time...
And by treading lightly you are taking care of yourself in the process?
Queenie, yes I am...

My primary boundary is that I will not allow myself to be lied to again. Her (grudging) discussion of what's going on with her was a step up from the standard "it's none of your business", or "I'm not going there with you".

My sense is that she recognized and understood that I was serious...and appeared to be making an effort in the direction of honesty...

I know things will not change overnight, but my finally recognizing my own power to take a stand is just that...my personal power, and it feels good.
bump...for inputs on conversation w/ WW on previous page...

Am trying to "actively listen" as well as I can...

Am thinking of asking her:

"OK, can you pls help me to understand why you are still holding out the option to "one day" see him again?"
L2F-


I wouldn't say anything to her-it would seem as if you are pushing for a response and in her foggy brain, she will twist it into something like "L2F is trying to control me" or whatever else the wayward alien brain comes up with.

My take on her statement that she doesn't know if she will ever see him again is that she doesn't want to admit that she made a mistake getting involved with OM. It's hard for waywards to think beyond themselves and how all this has affected them. They simply don't see that they caused all of it to happen by their own choices.

Just MHO


LTF
Been busy and have not been able to see how you R doing. I am praying that your WW will wake up and realize she is about to give up the most wonderful person in her life.

You R an amazing person your WW is absolutely insane not to see this.

JT, thanks for the insight...

Quote
My take on her statement that she doesn't know if she will ever see him again is that she doesn't want to admit that she made a mistake getting involved with OM.

I think you've got a VERY good point here...and FWIW I have been asking for advice b/c MY instincts often drive me towards direct confrontation...and we've seen where THAT's gotten me.

I am trying very hard to resist expectations, but her more willing engagement with me in the last weeks has been notable.

...waiting for someone to say..."but L2F, I thought you were about to go to plan B??!!"
Quote
You R an amazing person your WW is absolutely insane not to see this.
Jim, much to my surprise, this brought spontaneous tears to my eyes...thank you, from the bottom of my heart.

I'm far from perfect, and have such a long way to go...but I also have learned so much and have so much to offer.

Been looking for your thread in recovery...how's it going??!!
...so does anyone think I should send her a NC letter w/ instructions to edit and send back to me or should I let it lie for now??
I'd table it till I returned from my TDY and handle it then. Come back ready for plan B.

I thought she said she had NC.

Why is she interacting with OMM?

How easily could you get your kids?

NC not verified...

Last contact I know of was a cursory email exchange about 6 weeks ago. Could still be talking on the phone, seeing eachother, but how she speaks about it and the tone of the email was...well, not indicative of "traditional" contact...just a one line howgozzit...."thinking of you"

Through this whole thing, OMM has become a surrogate mom. I've been engaging w/ WW's mom to try to get them to interact more. They've got serious baggage to deal w/...WW is oldest ACOA mom and dad died in a car accident when WW was 10...abandonment issues, etc., etc.

I've seen so many situations MUCH worse than this for children where taking them from one parent was still not warranted. She is mostly a GREAT mom...just not so much since the A started. She could easily be one again...
L2F,
Sorry you have to cope with this. However, that's where you are, and that's what has to be dealt with.

First let me say that I have not read your whole thread, so If I make a mistake, you can blast me, and I'll repent, and do this over.


I don't think you ought to send her a NC letter to edit. I don't see where she has committed to NC.

One of the mistakes we all make is trying to reason with people who are operating on emotion. You can't reason with someone who is unreasonable.

You just can't.

So, if you operate on the premis that if a=b, and b=c, then a=c, it might not work at all with HER.

Harleys plans are organized to make an impresson so that when the affairee finally comes out of the fog, you have a position to reason from. Right now I don't think talking to her about facts, and figures will do much for your case.

I recommend reading up on the carrot and the stick of plan A again, and talking (here on MB) more about that.

Often the BS tries to get the WS to come back becuse it makes sense.

The OP reels the WS in because they make the WS FEEL GOOD.

This is the logic/feelings thing simplified.

What are you doing to make her feel good?

You do need to be logical too, and run your plan with good solid thinking behind it, I am not saying you ought to be operating on feeling too. I am saying that you need to realize what she is operating on, and that your plan needs to be working from that angle.

Is this making sense to you?

SS
SS, thank you for taking the time and care to respond so thoughtfully.

You may not have read my thread, but your comments certainly have me pegged...

Yes, I'm the logical/rational one...yet in recent years my feeling/intuitive side have grown by leaps and bounds.
Quote
Harleys plans are organized to make an impresson so that when the affairee finally comes out of the fog, you have a position to reason from

Yes. That's Plan A. My early plan A sucked...MUCH better this last year...

I read and reread the Carrot and Stick frequently.

Quote
I don't think you ought to send her a NC letter to edit. I don't see where she has committed to NC.
This is where I think I have misunderstood the concept of the NC letter. I've seen it many times here where the BS pushes the letter upon the WS and it gets sent...then NC is broken...understandably, because the WS wasn't "ready".

However, there's going to be much waiting around if the BS doesn't broach the idea...so what comes first, the chicken or egg here??

Quote
What are you doing to make her feel good?
As much as I possibly can! LBs are as far gone as I can see. I spend time talking and listening to her day, thoughts, opinions, etc. without judgment (of course very little of this is R talk at this point).

...epiphany, SS, one of the things I'm NOT doing to make her feel good is push...and that's what I've been doing w/ the emails, and what I would be doing w/ a suggested Plan B letter at this point.

This all seems to lead to continued patience...and lots of plan A.

Thanks again for the input, SS...and I hope you had a great day today!
I didn't want to come across as patronizing...... and hoped you would see in yourself what we see.

You just want to make this work, and that is good. It may be good to tell yourself daily that you can't MAKE her do anything. She has to come to WANT to do it.

As far as the chicken/egg and NC letters.......

You will help convince her, but she will make the decision. It is good to read up on Harley's materials as you go along. A good understanding of THE POLICY OF JOINT AGREEMENT is useful here. If she reluctantly agrees, it probably won't stick. This is a tough one, but you can't cut corners.

Have to leave for an appt. Hope you are doing well.

SS
I am fine things R great, wife is wonderful. Simply have not been able to post but wanted to keep up with your thread.

Will you be able to post while on TDY? Hope you R well.

I'll update my hread soon

God Bless
Quote
I didn't want to come across as patronizing...... and hoped you would see in yourself what we see.
SS, you didn't, and I do...thanks.

How was the weekend L2F?

SS
Hey SS, thanks for checking in.

Quote
How was the weekend L2F?
Well, I've been out to sea for almost a week, so the weekend was uneventful...at least from a marital standpoint... smile

My last conversation w/ WW was the one where she said she was not "currently in contact".

Have sent a few Plan A type emails since departing, but nothing to report.

She could very well have seen OM this weekend, or not...I really don't know. Trying to focus on the tasks at hand (which fully take up my time) rather than think about what she might be doing.

Many have recommended biding my time for the duration of this period away and then reevaluate upon my return. Good advice, and truly there's no other way as far as I can see.

That's one of the problems w/ military deployments...it makes Plan A pretty darn difficult.

Will do flowers for Mother's day, and will endeavor to send some nice snail mail letters...shows more effort on my part.

Spending more time reading other's threads this week...lot's of discussion about when and when not to go to plan B.

...trying to take it all in and evaluate my own need and timing to do so...

L2F
On one sense there are no weekends at sea. I didn't realize that's where you were. I should read back further on your thread.

You are right, it is more difficult to plan A while you are away.

I think you are on the right track though. Flowers are good, and snail mail letters do make a difference and show more care and concern.

I hope your W "gets it" and that coming home is a great help for YOU.

Hope you are mostly "up" these days.

SS
Anything new?

Hope your deployment is going well. Can't imagine how difficult it is to be away from home during this time.
Thanks for the support, SS.

While deployed, there are no weekends, but then you can also decide that there will be no Mondays either... smile

Hi Jim,

Quote
Can't imagine how difficult it is to be away from home during this time
Actually, it's a nice break... cool

Working hard, doing what I love.

Hey all...

Nothing really new to report on my sitch, but wanted to touch base...

My DS had his 14th today and had a great time w/ an airsoft war (if you don't know, don't ask), a bonfire, then a sleepover w/ 7 of his closest friends and a rousing 8-player Halo 3 tournament...sorry I am missing it.

He sounds great on the phone...he's awesome.

I've been reading a great book by Michael Perry called "Truck". I'm up to chapter 11 and came across this...

"You'll be a lonely old man", people have told me. Or maybe, I say, I'll be delighted with my freedom. I've been through the standard convulutions of love--swept up, swept away, swept under. I have, at times, wept at the thought of separation. Other times I couldn't wait to get away. I have lain in the dark wondering how I will ever be happy again. But in time, I always [i]was happy again, each heartbreak reduced to layers of thin veneer, or, in the tougher instances, a carbonaceous little ball to be left alone in the depest recesses of the gut. The lesson seemed to be, take happiness as it comes, don't try to get it cornered or run it down from behind.[/i]

...short version...it'll all be alright...
L2F,

I just quickly read your entire thread…(Note the word “Quickly”)

And just to recap so that I’m crystal clear…

You’re a Naval Aviator...You and your Wife are separated… You’re currently deployed...on the?? (U.S.S. Never Dock?) She told you that she’s not seeing OM any more...But there’s no proof to that...and for all you know it’s just one big lie...(She could be on OM #2 for all you know)

Is that basic recap correct?

Originally Posted by Learning2Fly
My DS had his 14th today and had a great time w/ an airsoft war (if you don't know, don't ask), a bonfire, then a sleepover w/ 7 of his closest friends and a rousing 8-player Halo 3 tournament...sorry I am missing it.

Wow, your son's b'day sounds EXACTLY like my SS's b'days.

Airsoft combat until dark, then a bonfire roast, followed by all night Halo combat with 4 XboX's and TVs linked up throughout the house.

No sleep to be had by anyone! I'd cook breakfast for everyone before they headed home.

Good times. I miss my SS.
Paging L2F.
Yes L2Fly how R U doing
Hope all is well
I hope he didn't get caught in a down draft.

SS
He may be in a remote area and not have acess to internet right now.

I know he was going on a deployment.
Posted By: jimld Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 07/25/08 05:52 PM
Paging Learning To Fly Where R you??????

Please give us an update how R U doing???
Posted By: WhoMe Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 07/25/08 07:27 PM
L2F, You're missing my Romeo-Echo-Tango-India-Romeo-Echo-Mike-Echo-November-Tango PARTY!!!! crazy

Who
Posted By: Amazin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 07/27/08 08:20 PM
DID YOU SAY RETIREMENT PARTY?? I ASPIRE TO HAVE ONE OF THOSE SOON... LOL

I could retire next month but I'm not ready yet...
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 07/29/08 08:14 PM
Hey Who...Happy Retirement!!!

Haven't checked my thread for awhile...been out to sea, then on leave here in the great PNW!

Well...I'm finally past the denial. It was like a switch that got flipped. I'm a pretty smart guy, but it's amazing how long it took me to finally get that when my WW said she didn't want to be married anymore, she meant that she didn't want to be married anymore...

I can't MAKE her stay married...

Plan A, B...they have a time limit for a reason.

It's been almost 3 years since the A began and 26 months since D-day...I've finally let myself off the hook. I really DID do everything I could. I realized that her not "coming around" is not my fault!

A calm has since come over me.

After getting home at the beginning of the month I quickly found browsing history on the computer that showed the POS OM was, once again, in my home checking his email, along with looking up things about pyramids and UFOs...this guy's a real gem.

I was PO'D. Told WW that she's free to see whoever the heck she wants, but that having him in MY home is non-negotiable. The home is supposed to be a safe haven for our kids...period. Even our touchy-feely non-MB MC told WW nearly 8 months ago when this last came up, "I don't care if OM is lying bleeding in the street...call 911. Under NO circumstances are you to have him in your house again." Pretty clear, I thought...

This was the final disrespect, and when confronted, she could only muster a weak "I really can't explain it, and it'll never happen again"

It was at this moment that it finally dawned on me just how it is one enforces boundaries...it's not by telling, demanding or restricting, it's removing yourself to a place where the other person has no access, and therefore can't cross your boundaries.

In this case, it's divorce.

Had a convo w/ WW the other day and basically said I was done, thank you very much, sorry for all I've done that made HER choice possible, and for all I've done to make things difficult since then. I said that all I've done (exposure, etc.) was meant to kill the affair and give our marriage a fighting chance, and that I hoped she understood that none of it was meant to be disrespectful or hurtful to her.

Man I felt like I was speaking from a different place in my heart. I was speaking MY TRUTH, without agenda or expectation...just saying what was.

I feel several inches taller... smile
Posted By: WhoMe Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 07/29/08 08:24 PM
L2Fly,

Thanks. Wow, I am really sorry to hear your news, but glad that you seem to be doing OK with it. Remember that you will always be able to hold your head high knowing that you did everything within your power to save your marriage.

The truth is that despite the best efforts, all marriages just can not be saved.

I suspect that someday, your WW will wake up and realize just what she has thrown away with both hands. It could take a long time and probably by then it won't matter to you. I know that is hard to imagine.

If you haven't done so, read a bit of Believers Story. Amazing.

Please take care of yourself and your kids and stay in tough.

Who
Posted By: Resonance Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 07/29/08 10:15 PM
HEY BUDDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good to see ya back. And glad to hear you grew a few inches taller! wink I wish you all the happiness in the world and just as Who said...you did the best you possibly could. Sometimes, we just can't save others...even the ones closest to us.

And I'm sorry the scum-bag OM is in your house. oooo--I have an idea! How about putting up a screen saver on your computer that tells him just what you think of him. Or getting a restraining order on him with your kids so that he cannot legally come into your home...they may be willing to tell the police some stuff that makes it possible. Has he done anything even remotely questionable in their presence? All sorts of things I'm thinking might just work! Your home is YOUR HOME and he shouldn't be allowed to defile it! GRRR! mad

But, I don't want to stir you up too much-it sounds as if you have found that peace that you have been searching for for a long time. I am so very proud of you for that! Keep your head up high and in case I haven't said it lately...

THANK YOU FOR SERVING OUR COUNTRY AND KEEPING US ALL SAFE!!

(ditto for you Amazin and RIF and all the rest!)

Take care!
Posted By: johnstwin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 07/30/08 02:44 AM
Hey L2F-

Good to have you back in the PNW. You didn't bring the rain did you? grin

Posted By: Amazin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 07/31/08 01:57 AM
Glad to have ya back...

I figured you were at sea.

Posted By: Amazin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 09/07/08 11:15 PM
Hey L2F...

Any updates?
Posted By: Amazin Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 12/15/08 01:23 AM
Hey L2F,

How about an update?
Posted By: Learning2Fly Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/24/09 08:50 AM
Hey there all, just doing a quick drive by...

On deployment and scheduled to be home this Summer. Filed a while ago and should be seeing final papers from lawyer here soon.

Kids fine, actually, better. It's truly spot on what they say about kids needing a conflict-free zone in which to thrive, and they are.

Moving on...at peace...happier than I can remember being since a teenager.

More later, but just wanted to say 'hi'...

LTF
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: ***just handed divorce papers*** - 03/24/09 01:51 PM
Thank you for the fly-by.

LA
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