It appears as though Recovery will not be successful.

It has been over 3 years and Patriot has continued to be dishonest with me. The most recent discovery being lying about the content of his conversations with a female co-worker.

He still maintains that he didn't do anything wrong by having these conversations with her, yet still he chose to hide it from me.

He said that he hid it from me not because he was doing anything wrong, but because he didn't trust my judgment not to overreact.

I feel completely lost and afraid and the only choices I see laid out before me are either to continue to live this way or to end my marriage.

If anyone feels the need to point out to me that this is what happens when you marry someone who lies to you, I am already aware of that.

However, it being my fault that I am hurting doesn't seem to be making it hurt less at this moment.

{{{{{{{frozen}}}}}}}}

I don't really know much about your story, frozen, but my heart is sad that you are still dealing with lying after 3 years.

fog-speak



I am sorry for your pain. It is sad that after three years, he still doesn't get it. Don't choose to live with deception on any level.

I am sorry you are going through this. It isn't your fault.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{frozen}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Is Patriot92 your H?

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{frozen}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

There aren't any words to make it better, but please know that we all care that you are hurting and in pain after all this time.

Why do you consider it YOUR FAULT that you are hurting?

This was done to you.

You are the VICTIM.

Don't blame YOURSELF.

A GREAT BIG HUG GOING OUT TO YOU...

Yes.

I feel utterly terrified. I don't have the money to leave. He said that he won't leave.

My son, 18 lives with us. We never told him about the A. He is a senior this year. I made bad relationship choices in the past and as a result, he has suffered. He loves Patriot and I am afraid to tell him. I don't want to hurt him.

He is supposed to go to a great college in the fall. Patriot was going to help me pay for it. If I leave, I don't know how I can do that by myself. I don't want to ruin my son's life. I keep thinking that if I can just deal with a little bit more, I can avoid that outcome.

I'm really scared right now.

I feel like I can't take another day of this and I can't seem to get ahold of myself.

Because I married him after D-Day.

Well, this is a very recent quote from him. Sounds like a hypocrite to me. If you are lying for any reason to the woman you emotionally raped...you are a WS....and a fraud.

Expose this to your son. He deserves the truth. Your H has already hurt him...he just doesn't know about it yet.
I assume since you said "your son" that it is not Patriots son. If that is the case, find a way to pay for it. There is always a way to make it work. I would bet that your son would not want to take money from this "man" that is abusing his mother.

Taking control will make you less scared....but it will be there on some level. I am sorry.

I don't know how.

I have $200 to my name and I don't see a way out of this.

Bad decision...yes. But it is not your fault. Now, letting him lie from this point forward without consequence would be making that bad decision worse.

you have NO marital assets? Do you work? Does he work?

I'm so sorry to hear this news, frozen. I wish you all the best and hope that your faith in God will help calm your fears and sadness. You will be in my thoughts and prayers.

Patriot is legally obligated to help support you, Froz.

I agree with MEDC.

Your son is old enough to handle the truth of this.

You are helping him not hurting him by telling him THE TRUTH.

He can get a STUDENT LOAN to help pay for college.

What was the nature of his conversations with this woman?

How did you find out?

Sometimes it helps to talk about it...get it off of your chest...

guys - I've spoken with Froz on the phone a few minutes ago. She is getting ready for a family dinner tonight, so I am not sure she'll be around.

I've encouraged her to not take immediate actions, to stop talking to Pat about this, and to ask Pat to put all discussion on hold until the Harleys can intervene and negotiate the next steps (whatever those steps need to be).

Please support her in not making any immediate, life altering decisions while she is so vulnerable and emotional.

Thank God you're there for her, BR.

My heart was aching for her.

I'm so sorry to read this, froz. My heart goes out to you.

Take each moment as it comes.

Talk to the Harley's......

As you know, you are not alone.

Fox

I am not one for thinking the Harley's should be the next step here. I see them as coaches to help with marital issues(to recover a marriage). When a WS is still lying three years after d-day..it would be an attorney that I would recommend anyone speaking with. That's just me.

I am glad BR is there for her too.

Frozen,

Patriot's choice of post was odd to me, at the time, talking of consequences and punishment as if they are one and the same.

First, you are totally sane and together, lady, let no one convince you otherwise.

I'm so sorry for your continued pain this far into recovery. I have to agree that it is time that your son know the truth. I'm sure it will complete a picture for him, as he probably is already aware of the tension in the home.

As for college, start looking at scholarships, grants and loans. Also, after telling your son, discuss the real possibility that his education may have to be completed in another school, maybe a state school, where tuition is lower.

By no means should your son NOT go to school; you'll just have to be more crafty. Where there's a will, well, you know the rest.

MEDC - Froz & Pat went to a MB weekend and have done some counselling with Dr Harley.

We have one side of the story outlined here and I think it would be prudent to seek Dr Harley's advice before jumping to lawyers.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />




You're kidding, right?

What happened to POJA?

sheesh!

(((frozen))) I am around on email anytime you need to talk.

{{{{Frozen}}}}

I am so sorry to hear this. My prayers are with you.

You've grown so much in the last three years. You'll get through this. Don't panic.

And don't allow him to push the blame onto you. Sheesh!

Pat has issues he needs to work out. He's been told that many times.

TA

I hear you BK. Froz is able to decide what she wants to do. IMHO...a WS (or FWS) does not have the luxury of ever being able to get a pass on lying again. Three years post A and after having completed a MB weekend, Pat would know how hurtful lies would be...yet he lies anyway. I wouldn't fault Froz for calling the Harley's in this case...but I would consult with a lawyer first and foremost. As I said, that's me. I'd much rather be divorced than deal with lies from a FWS...which if he is lying he hasn't really earned the F IMHO.

((((((((((Froz))))))))))

If this is true, this should be in the WS-Speak Hall of Fame (Shame), with extra points for selfishness from somebody who has BEEN TO AN MB WEEKEND and who has BEEN READING AND POSTING ON MB for YEARS and absolutely knows better.

exactly!

MEDC ~ Dr Harley has already involved on an ongoing basis and aware of this new relevation of Pat's - and in fact took steps today to provide Froz and Pat more support. I am confident that Froz will get good advice on what she needs to do next. SH certainly had no problem telling me to get a divorce - I am sure they will do the same with Froz if that's what should happen. But right now, it is not good for her to make life altering choices on her own while she is in extreme distress.

Froz, I am very, very sorry.

Take some time, talk with Dr. Harley. BR is right...you shouldn't make decisions while you are in such deep pain right now.

BR...IMHO, it is up to Froz, not Dr. H to decide when that should happen.
This is an opinion board. I offered my opinion. No one here is "right." There is a different way of looking at things. It doesn't matter WHO the coach is to me...if I am still being lied to 3 years post d-day..it would be a lawyer that I was speaking to. Sometimes fear and pain can be wonderful motivators to get us to act. Froz may be hurt and upset...but that doesn't mean she isn't thinking clearly.

I don't know how to tell if I'm thinking clearly or not. I know that I am really, really scared. I'm scared to stay and I'm scared to leave, too.



I have a difficult time trusting my perception. So when someone tells me that I must just be “seeing this wrong” (as Patriot often does), or that “we only have one side of the story” (implying that I’m either making it up or that I’m somehow mistaken) it makes it all the more difficult for me not to allow the hurtful behavior.

BK, you have indicated to me on numerous occasions that there is some sort of issue with trusting either my word or my perception. I can’t for the life of me figure out why, as I am an extremely straightforward and honest person.

Frankly, it’s insulting. I don’t know of another BS who posts about some fog speak that their spouse is engaging in (such as blaming the BS) that is met with responses that have the tone of “maybe he’s right”.

No matter, it isn’t helpful and yours and a few others who have bought into this have only succeeded in enabling. So I am requesting that you or anyone else who wants to tell me that I’m crazy or that it is my fault, please refrain from posting to me.

I have a history of relationships with abusive men and it is all too easy for me to fall back in to the dangerous mindset that it is my fault.

MEDC,

We bought the house before we were married, so it is in Patriot’s name only. We both work. I own a small business and the majority of what I earn I contribute to the household finances. If I stop contributing as much as I can, I am afraid that I would be being unfair. If I were to use the household finances to leave, I am afraid he would think that I am trying to steal his money. He has a fear of being raked over the coals by women. I don’t want to make him angry because I have worked really hard to learn how to stop LB’s.

Mimi,



First, he said only business-related things. Now he says sometimes she would talk about problems in her marriage and he would just listen but that he never talked about our marriage.



I begged him to tell me any secrets he is hiding from me about the past.

Personally, I feel almost positive that there is more. One reason for this is that there always IS more. Another is that there are other red flags with this particular former co-worker. One of them being that at that time, I had access to his work e-mail and I noticed one day that some e-mails from her that were in his inbox had suddenly disappeared.

When I asked him about it, he said that he had to move them because…something about the e-mails from her section having large attachments and there being limits on his inbox. He told Dr. Harley that he was uncaring and did not change it, which is confusing to me.

There are other reasons, but it would take a long time to explain.

SMB, MEDC, Mimi, Mel, Queenies, Resonance, Fox, SL, FF, TA, Michele, LC…thank you for your guidance and support.

Thank the Lord for BR.

I haven’t posted a lot about our situation in a long time, partly due to the reasons I mentioned in the beginning of this post and partly due to the fact that Patriot also posts here. It often seems like when I post, Patriot will post in defense and portray me as the villain and himself as a victim. It seems to me that he is pretty skilled at garnering sympathy because often times people believe him.

Not me. I don't respect anyone...anyone that abuses the trust that a loved one has placed in them. Liars lie.

BTW...I would also strongly suggest a polygraph if you are to stay with this "man."

Froz,

I have kept up on your story.

Something you might want to consider is that Patriot is morally immature - he likes to walk on the edge and it builds his ego to have a woman confide in him without considering that this is dangerous to his marriage and everything he holds dear. In that immature state, his biggest concern is losing financially instead of losing you and your son.

He thinks consequences are important to preventing relapse - sorry - alcoholics get tons of consequences, and until they grasp the conscience and character to seek out a power greater than themselves, their fate is institutions, jails and death. For adulterers, until they set their egos aside and "grow up", and recognize they are not a power unto themselves, their fate is broken relationships, financial devastation, followed by broken relationships and financial devastation. In some cases, where their ego can't handle another broken relationship, they go off the deep end and wind up in jail, for domestic violence or worse.

I'd be happy to give you some off the board support so that you have a choice in the relationship. I had a sponsor who was 6 mo preg when she found out her husband was cheating on her "again" for the 8th time - this time with the same woman he had cheated on her the first time. She had had enough but she wasn't in a position to leave.

BTW, - my sponsor's still married to her husband, who is no longer cheating, and who has transformed into an adult with conscience and character. I'd love to share what I learned for myself from her example.

Kayla:

Would you be willing to share HERE so WE can profit from what you have learned?

I come from an EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE background..long story..but, like you, I deal with FEAR and that PERCEPTION ISSUE alot...then add on the BETRAYAL by my HUSBAND with him full well knowing what I had been through in my life..

I've come to learn that MY PERCEPTION IS MY REALITY. MY PERCEPTION is MY TRUTH. I don't QUESTION myself on MY PERCEPTIONS. With my H, the key is POJA. I say: "This is the way I see it. Basically, IT IS WHAT IT IS. This is where I am coming from". The other key is OPENNESS and HONESTY, for you to state YOUR TRUTH and for him to state HIS. THE MAJOR PROBLEM seems to be Pat's DISHONESTY..NOT YOUR PERCEPTIONS.

I would, except that the nature of this conflict has control and gaslighting mixed into it.

Patriot does not need to know what Froz is doing to take care of herself. It's not that what I would tell her would hurt him financially or emotionally - it would only focus on empowering her. But he would definitely take action to interfere with any developing empowerment, because it would mean he loses control. Froz's shares about what's stopping her from leaving makes it very clear that Patriot has this control, knows he has the control, has contributed to Froz's belief that he has control, - and thus would resent and do everything he could to stop any possible change in this dynamic.

Some time in the future, I'm sure you will see me share it - just not now when it's critical for Froz to gain some control over her own life.

GOTCHA!!

Froz - an ideal marriage is where there is mutual respect and power. Kasey learned before we married how the decision making model for our marriage would work. We had a conversation before we married that alarmed me - it was the control freak's model - he would hear my input then he would decide- well that would be fine if I were a child or property, but not as a wife. I told him that I would not participate in such a marriage model. That if we disagreed we'd make it a matter of prayer and NO decision would be made until we both agreed. This prevented any "power-over" behavior.

Harley's principles were easy for us to adopt - especially POJA.

Where you don't feel any autonomy in your marriage - totally depending on his cooperation, you are essentially "property". No wonder he feels free to lie and withhold from you. No wonder he feels no obligation to protect you by refraining from confidences with other women. This dynamic must change if your marriage is to survive, or you are to survive. He may love you but his behavior is killing your spirit.

Unfortunately Pat reads Froz's private email (which would be ok in healthier circumstances). And he does take steps to bully and threaten her whenever he suspects she's gaining strength and support.

This is an ongoing pattern with him.

I am not going to say more here on the public boards...but let me assure all of you that Dr. Harley is not snowed by Pat.

Froz has grown so much over the years she has been here. All I can say, from what I have seen of Froz, on and off the boards is WOW. She's one heck of lady who has done everything she can to make her marriage work. I have for a long time been very uncomfortable with Pat's abuse (and I do call it abuse). I can tell you she is NOT crazy, NOT vindictive, and has gone to very long lengths to uphold her end of the marriage.

So Kayla, it might be better to speak with her on the phone if she is willing.

Tell you what, BR - I believe you have my email addy because I think I have yours - I'll send you what I was going to share with Froz- and you can pass it on.

works for me. Thanks K.

Glad you are hanging in there, Froz.

Patriot KNOWS the MB stuff, and he KNOWS that he should not be entertaining any non-business talk from other women.

I work with all men, and from time to time, one of them speaks inappropriately about his wife. For example, I complimented one about something, and he came back with how his wife would never say that, she was mean, blah, blah, blah. Right then I told him it was inappropriate. That nipped it in the bud.

Since Pat seems UNWILLING to take similar precautions, the stakes for recovery go up. He needs to step up to the plate and sign an agreement to give you X amount of dollars towards your son's education. That is the only way I can see that you will feel safer. His talk is cheap.

I'm sure there are all kinds of reasons why he behaves like he does, but that doesn't help YOU recover. If he had never cheated it would be a big red flag, but considering his history, it is SCAREY.

Frozen,
I am so sorry you are going through this. I had no idea that Patriot was still keeping things from you. THAT IS NOT RIGHT and I don't care how long ago it happened. Dr. Harley said to tell the BS everything they need to know and THEN you can move past that IF there is "just compensation" and "extraordinary care".

And I think that Patriot should add your name on the deed to the house. I mean, if he's a BUYER, he would right? I wouldn't feel SAFE that he was buyer without it.

I also agree that if he said he would pay for half of your son's education that he should put that in writing too. Unless he said, "well if we get a divorce I'm not going to help with the education expenses". And well, that would only mean that he doesn't care about your son really. To me if he felt that way, he's IS using that as some kind of manipulation because he KNOWS it scares you and that you'll do just about anything for your son because YOU are a good person. But you don't have to that Frozen. You CAN do this without him.

It might ease your fears a little bit if you talk to a lawyer and see what your rights are should you decide to not live in deception and manipulation anymore.

You have put just as much, if not more, effort into your marriage and you have every right to benefit from that.

I personally don't see him as a "F"WS until he starts being completely honest with you and does what it takes to earn your trust back. I wouldn't feel valued and cherished in this case. His actions speak differently of someone who is a FWS.

Everyone here is saying what I would say anyways, but from a FWS, what I feel the problems are (as many have stated) emotional immaturity and ego. Anyone who has spent this much time with the Harleys should be well aware of why these control issues and interactions with the opposite sex are inappropriate AND would be aware of the level of pain they have inflicted on their spouse.

The bottom line is that he has been (from what I am reading here) unwilling to let go of his own ego and issues with bad behavior, because he thinks he is entitled to feel that he is IN CONTROL. He is not. In every marriage, not only one where there has been an A, each must let go of these feelings and enter into a POJA setting. It is no longer about control or who should have the upper hand in any decision. If this is not the model of your M after so much work and heartache, then you must consider moving on. You deserve to be cherished and respected as a strong, beautiful woman in every way, shape or form. He should be practicing extraordinary precautions without being asked to do and should do so lovingly and willingly. Instead, he is concerned with consequence versus punishment.

Please trust this from one who has been controlling, judgemental and stubborn in my M. It was so hard to let all that go and be vulnerable. But now that it has happened, I am disgusted by the way I used to be and would not wish to enter back into that mindset for the rest of my life. It is this change of mindset that you are longing for and until it happens, you will be forced with the conflict you are facing now.

I am one who is very strong in faith and belief in God, and that no matter how scared you are, if you are doing the right thing for yourself and for your soul to be strong, God will provide. God doesn't want any of us to live in fear. Many say the opposite of love is indifference, but it ISN'T! The opposite of love is FEAR. "Perfect love casteth out all fear." Fear is what keeps us from being close to God, and love is what draws us closer to Him.

I hope you can find the strength to do whatever you feel is right for your own happiness. We will be here for you!!

In his effort to make Frozen seem "obsessive" thus making her doubt herself? Gaslighting. I KNOW the behavior.

I agree with Resonance.

My heart goes out to you. "You're overreacting" is a classic dismissive statement. Translation: "I judge that I don't have to consider your feelings."

Last month, I happened to pick up a book called: "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft. The subtitle is "Inside the Minds of Angry and Abusive Men." The book was a page-turner for me.

I flipped open the book to find something relevant, and it took about 1 minute to find this: "Certain behaviors and attitudes are definitional of abuse, such as ridiculing your complaints..." (p. 135). The book gave me a lot of insight. I hope that it helps you. No one deserves the treatment you have gotten. No one.

Cherishing

I don't understand where I have power.

I don't understand where I have control.

Why do I feel like a prisoner? There is a reason that I feel like I can not express my emotions but everyone else can express there emotions AT me.

Lying is wrong, no doubt.

Anyway, I am talking to Kim on Wednesday. Maybe someone would be willing to be an accountability partner for me? Talk on the phone for a bit and see just how full of ****** I am? Through that maybe I could figure something out about being healthy in a relationship.

I don't want to snow anyone. I don't imagine I really could now anyway.

Just a thought. I would like to be healthy in a relationship. I would like to stop hurting my wife.

Patriot, I think it would be a good idea if you posted what you just said on your thread.

Pat ~ your wife has been clear with you that she does not want discuss your relationship right now. She's been clear that further discussions will ONLY take place with the Harleys guidance.

Posting on her thread is incredibly disrespectful to her - in addition to being another attempt on your part to manipulate the people who might offer her support and strength.

It's likely your marriage is over. If you want to have ANY chance to save it, you need to drop EVERY single lovebusting behavior. This is your mess. Get off your wife's thread.

So, I agree with Bramble Rose on manipulating Frozen's thread.


Frozen,

So.....what *I* hear Patriot saying....... is that he knows lying is wrong but he doesn't think it's fair that people are upset by it. Sounds like he's trying to become the victim.

Does this sound familiar Froz?

I don't know that I should try to guess what his statements mean. What he does/doesn't do is what matters to me.

Cherishing, I ordered the book you recommended from the library. Thank you.

Thank you mopey, BR, Kayla, Resonance, believer, and mimi for your support.

I agree. However, inaction speaks to me as much as action.

If your H is keeping truth from you, that IS an action so to speak. And if he's on here complaining about "emotions at him" that speaks as well.

Really??? But you need someone to hold your hand and tell you to not do it? I don't know how to say this without appearing to 2 x 4 you...but needing an accountability partner to stop hurting your wife sounds very childish to me. It seems to me that it is all about appearances.

I would strongly suggest that if you truly need that...intensive IC would likely be your first step.

So, what gives you the right to lie to your wife? And if your answer is a simple..."I don't have the right...." then why take away her ability to make decisions about her own life based on truth?

Don't you realize that you should count your lucky stars that Froz even married you after what you did? You didn't deserve her...she gave you a gift and this is how you repay her? Think about how self centered and cruel that is. You owe her nothing less than EVERYTHING.

So, let me ask you...are you still a liar? About what? Would you be willing to truly put that to a test with a polygraph? If not...why not? I mean you have honestly shown yourself to be untrustworthy over a long stretch of time...is there really any reason to believe anything you say at this point?

Look at the difference in recovery between you and TST. What he has done in a few short months is more than you have done in three years.

Yep. That's what my H just said. So his "solution" is to "go our separate ways".

Yes. Because "go our separate ways" is easier for him than "change my selfish ways". He'd rather be without you than give up his selfish behaviour. Nothing complicated here.

"I would like to stop hurting my wife" is easy. Both Patriot and your husband know exactly how to do that. But they would rather keep 100% of the control for themselves, so they make THAT the priority instead and the hits just keep on comin'.

"I would like to stop hurting my wife" really means, "I would like for my wife to stop being hurt by what I do."

They are really asking how they can force/bully/guilt-trip/gaslight their wives into not being hurt by their behaviour anymore so they don't have to change anything.

Sad, sad, sad.
Mulan

It's the way it feels and looks to me too Mulan.

And it is sad.

Bingo.

Yep...ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS....

More HUGS going out to you, FROZ....

You are in my prayers...

Frozen,

There isn't much that I can add to this thread, I just wanted to lend my support. Heck, I've got my own troubles with recovery that PWC won't get past or change, which heavily effect our recovery. I struggle with this daily.

I believe you have what it takes to get thru this, Froz.

Thank you, SL. I am trying to figure out a way out because I really don't think anything is going to change until I do. It hasn't yet and it has been over 3 years.

I don't want to be here another 3 years from now in the same situation. It is hard to see a way to keep from being in the same situation while I am smack dab in the middle of it.

I think I know what fears have allowed me to be controllable.

* Fear of the unkown.
* Fear of being alone.
* Fear of being defective (no one else will want me).
* Fear that, having ADD, I will make a mistake (such as not paying attention to a detail or making a mathematical error in finances, being impulsive, forgetting to pay something, etc...) and there being painful consequences for myself or my children as a result. Patriot is a good provider, which cushions the effect of such consequences.

While the first two are fears that I realize are more emotional than logical, the last one is a fear that is not only logical, but certain and unavoidable.

Someone who doesn't have experience with ADD can say, "Just pay attention and don't make a mistake." Someone who understands the effects of ADD knows that it is both unrealistic and impossible and that the harder someone with ADD tries to pay attention, the less they able they are to do it.

The only solution I have found is to try to work within my limitations - to expect that I will make a mistake and do the best I can to work around it (e.g. instead of trying to remember that I have a frozen pizza in the oven and that I need to check it so I don't burn it, I set an egg timer and carry it around with me so that I don't HAVE to pay attention and remember).

Patriot has been the recipient of the consequences too, such as being late everywhere, bringing me lunch at work because I either forgot or spilled mine on the floor, cleaning up the gallon of paint that I spilled in my car because I forgot to hammer the lid back on, calling and settling with creditors for a bill I forgot I had, helping me when I need to accomplish something with a deadline and I lost track of time and became overwhelmed by breaking into smaller pieces and helping me prioritize. ..not to mention lots of burned pizza until my son came up with the egg timer solution.

Maybe it's enabling and maybe it isn't. While some of these things may be a knapsack for a lot of people, they are often boulders for me.

Dr. Harley speaks often about behaviors being in one of two categories…instincts and habits. Habits can be changed. Instincts can not. The way my brain functions is instinct and the best I can do is to plan for mistakes and do what I can to have a safety net – and that is never foolproof.

Patriot has become my safety net and without his help, there will be consequences and I am afraid.

Goodness, Froz, I hear your fear.

I admit that fear has kept me fighting for my marriage, at least initially. Now, I don't fear being alone as much as I fear what will happen to my son, my financial stability, if I D or separate. Now, add on the ADD, as in your sitch, and I suppose I would be overwhelmed right now. I can feel it, just thinking about it.

Extend that net out as much as you can before making any major choices. Ask friends to help you out, don't isolate yourself. When you spill the paint, call an understanding party and ask for help. When the pizza burns, microwave a hot dog. MOst of all, don't allow fear to keep you from being happy and healthy. Many illnesses, including ADD, can be exaserbated by mentally/emotionally/physically draining situations.

What about MEDICATION for your ADD? It is highly effective.

Wow, I must have ADD, cause I do crap like that ALL the time. In fact, everyone I know does stuff like that.

I think its called being human froz. Don't beat yourself up over the little things. You don't deserve it.

Sounds a little like BS fog to me. Or is this how Patriot keeps you under his control?

You know, Froz, that he is not the ONLY one in the world who can handle this.

It is certainly an added difficulty for you, but impossible to deal with if Pat is not around? I'm sure not.

You CAN do it, Froz, if you are willing.

Don't let fear rule your decisions.

Take care,
Fox

Froz, Im with TYK here. I do crap like that ALL the time myself. ESPECIALLY after d-day (d-year).

Just the other night I was pretty upset ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) and preoccupied and I burned a 1/2 doz eggs I was boiling on the stove. Boy! Talk about stinking!....lol.....I laughed so hard when I looked at my son's face when he walked in the door and got a whiff of it...lol....

Also, after one ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) of my d-days, I went to Walgreens and left my car door WIDE open! They announced it on the loud speaker, of course, and I slithered out to go shut it.

I pass my exits....

I can't concentrate on my homework, etc.

I definitely think it got worse after d-day.

Now, I just have to laught at myself.

I understand your fears Froz and this has been my motto for the last week..........

Change is scary, but not changing is scarier.

That's where I'm at.


{{{{Frozen}}}}}}

Unfortunately, after D-Day I made the mistake of not telling anyone...partly denial/partly shame/partly hoping that if I pretended like it didn't happen, I could stave off the grief of losing what I thought was real and avoid facing the fears I am now up against. Obviously Plan Denial was unsuccessful.

Not telling anyone only served to isolate me from anyone who might have been any sort of support system. Since D-Day, I've pretty much withdrawn from everyone. They noticed.

Recently, I told one friend. She said that it explained a lot and she was understanding. Soon, I will probably tell more and after that, I imagine I will need to stop being such a chicken and tell my children and my and Patriot's parents.



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The loss of a pizza is a consequence I can easily manage.

I am more afraid of consequences like having nothing to eat and not having a roof over my head. I have been there before. It is terrifying.

Tyk,


LOL!

Think of it ocurring on a much grander scale and the being the rule, rather than a once in a while kind of thing.

Btw, one of the symptoms is being too open, too trusting, naive and gullible. That's always a handy survival instinct (not!).



I have been taking Adderall for a little over a year now. It does help with just a few of the symptoms, but not even close to all of them.

Also, given that I am self-employed, I rely on Patriot for health insurance.



I'm not sure what BS fog is, but yes...what I was trying to explain is WHY I have allowed myself to be controlled.



Hey, Mopey...I can definitely relate!



Good mantra. That is where I'm at too.

I'm sick of being controlled. I'm sick of living in fear. Currently those things are still a part of my marriage, so I am going to work on removing the fears that I have about NOT living in this situation.

From the library today, I got:

Doormats & Control Freaks - How to Recognize, Heal or End Codependent Relationships

The Gaslight Effect

You Don't Have To Take It Anymore

The Truth Will Set You Free - Overcoming Emotional Blindness and Finding Your True Adult Self

Get Free Cash For College - Secrets To Winning Scholarships

Codependent No More/Beyond Codependency

Practical Guide To Your Money

and last but not least...

What Does Everybody Else Know That I Don't - Social Skills Help for Adults with ADD

Fox,



Good advice.
One way or another, something is going to change. I can't live like this anymore.

This book, The Gaslight Effect, is really, really good and very interesting.

Some key points regarding what allows someone to be vulnerable to gaslighting:

* if you are easily swayed by people who seem certain
* if you are very responsive to people who seem hurt, frustrated, or needy
* if you have a strong need to be right and to be seen as right
* if you have a big stake in being like, appreciated or understood
* if it's very important to you to be able to fix things and make everything come out well
* if you have a huge capacity to feel for others (it allows you to switch all too quickly to your gaslighter's point of view
* when you want very much to preserve the relationship
* if you want generally to keep relationships going - you hae a hard time letting go of people
* when you want very much to preserve your good opinion about the gaslighter
* if you have a hard time acknowledging that someone is treating you badly
* if you feel very uncomfortable with disagreement or conflict
* if you are more comfortable relying upon another person's opinion than upon your own
* if you worry frequently about not being good enough, capable enough or lovable enough
* if you want your gaslighter's approval, especially because you have idealized or romanticized him or because you're very invested in preserving the relationship

The ADD book is really good too, though it isn't what I thought it was about. I thought it was a book about how to teach adults with ADD how to learn to manage their lives independently.

It isn't. It's about learning social skills. Having an inconsistent attention span causes someone to miss the subtle signals that most people learn as children.

Apparently, there is this big, unwritten rulebook of social rules that I was unaware of.

This explains to me why I so often get these "looks" (like I've said something funny, when I wasn't trying to be funny)

It also explains to me why I am so frequently misunderstood. The book says that because people are constantly trying to make sense of the world around them, they make guesses based on external cues and try to find suitable explanations, so they make guesses about people's motives. Because they assume that everyone knows these unwritten social rules, they leap to the negative conclusions.

This happens to me ALL the time!!! People think I'm trying to be rude when I'm not or that I must have some sneaky, underhanded agenda when I am being completely forthcoming and genuine.

It makes no sense to me why there has to be all these unwritten rules. Why does communication have to have all these subtle nuances? I can't believe that getting along in society involves having to learn to to GUESS what people mean! Why can't everyone just say exactly whatever it is they mean...that way no one would ever have to guess and there would be no misunderstandings.

My way is much more logical, so I am proposing that we all forget about this unwritten rulebook nonsense. Everyone please change to make life easier for me, okay? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

It seems like there is always something I need to learn and when I learn it, there is just something else and by then I've already forgotten the first thing I learned.

I LOVE IT that you are a READER..me, too..I'm a firm believer in BIBLIOTHERAPY!!

DRIVEN TO DISTRACTION is a great book about strategies to cope with ADD. I don't have it but am surrounded by "LOVED ONES" (not calling any names) who do...

I'm currently reading AUTHENTIC HAPPINESS. It's FANTASTIC and they have a GREAT WEBSITE where you can take FREE QUIZZES to learn helpful stuff about yourself. I hope I can post it. It is www.authentichappiness.org.

I've read Driven To Distraction and also Delivered from Distraction.

I love quizzes! Thanks for the link.

Lucky me, I'm already there!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Here's a question that has been rolling around in my head...maybe someone knows the answer.

If putting too much stock in people's opinions makes you an easy target for gaslighting, how can you tell the difference between doing that and being open to criticism about things you really do need to change???

By not putting stock in anyone's opinion based on WHO THEY ARE, but based on the merit and validity of their opinion. Every opinion should be judged on its MERIT, not on WHO stated it, IMO.

psst . . . froz . . . they're not talking about the unwritten *spoken* rules. They're talking about the unwritten *unspoken* rules for communication - the body language, the facial expressions, that sort of thing. I think that's what you're missing when it comes to social cues.

To help this - in all seriousness - start with the animal world. Animals communicate with each other almost entirely with body language and expression, and only with the most rudimentary of sounds.

I have long experience learning to understand the "language" of horses, and believe me, humans do much the same thing. And it's very, very important to pick up on the body language and *unspoken* cues.

I don't know anyone who is a natural at that, whether it's with humans or with animals. We all have to make an effort to learn it and understand it. It's not just you.

Watch the TV show called *The Dog Whisperer* (it's on the National Geographic channel.) Get a book called *The Man Who Listens to Horses*, by Monty Roberts. These things are all about learning to read non-verbal cues from another species and you will be amazed at how much of it carries over to humans.

Have some fun with this. I really do think you'll be surprised.
Mulan

AHA!!! I KNEW IT!!!

It DOES require having to guess what people mean!

I think that's a really dumb rule. It leaves too much room for human error.

I wish that people could just ask other people what they mean. It occurs to me that method leaves too much room for human lying.

I really do not understand why someone would lie about what they mean. What is the point in being snide if you can't take responsibility for it?

Maybe because they want to get away with it and still have people think they are nice. But then, what is the point in having people *think* you are nice if YOU know you aren't? Baffling.

I will watch The Dog Whisperer.

Mimi, the quizzes link doesn't work!

Boundary setting is lonely.

Here you go:

I LOVED THE VIA SIGNATURE STRENGTHS QUESTIONNAIRE:

Authentic Happiness

Thank you!