Marriage Builders®
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 06:39 PM
Well it looks pretty bleak. She has no love for me and can't ever get it back. She's still in contact with this guy and won't quit with the contact. Won't quit her job. She says she doesn't want to run off with this guy, just wants to be left alone. She won't leave the house and neither will I. Wants me to move out. I can't find the OM's address, or his W's phone number. I am really lost right now.
Posted By: QueeniesAdventures Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 07:21 PM
Are you working Plan A?
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 07:39 PM
I'm still working on it. But she doesn't notice any of the Em's I trying to meet. She is so far distant I can't meet many of them anyway.
Posted By: QueeniesAdventures Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 07:44 PM
What is rule number ONE about Plan A. NO EXPECTATIONS.

You have NO IDEA what she is noticing or not. And you are working this Plan for you, not for her.

What is your Plan A, how are you implementing it? What are you learning about yourself and what changes are you making that you want to make.
Posted By: krusht Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 08:13 PM
Okie,

""I can't find the OM's address, or his W's phone number. I am really lost right now.""

Dude, you must suck it up and FIND the address and phone #. You must expose and stop the contact.

""She has no love for me and can't ever get it back. She's still in contact with this guy and won't quit with the contact. Won't quit her job. She says she doesn't want to run off with this guy, just wants to be left alone.""

As long as she has the contact, she is in the fog, and being in the fog, out of her mouth comes the FOGBABBLE. "I have no love for you...etc.

Don't get down and forlorn. Check out the FOGBABBLE information. It can work to counter the hateful things coming out of her mouth.

Plan A has the carrot but also the STICK. Breaking the contact (the A) currently is the big stick.

IMHO

kirk
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 09:42 PM
QNL,

I'm doing quite a bit I think. I do the dishes, I'm the one who has to worry about dinner everynight. Making sure the kids homework gets done. I can only do there other EN's when she let's me and right now she doesn't let me at all anymore. I thought we were in better shape a month ago.

Thanks K,

I guess I could hire a PI. But the contact has to stop, I do know that. But how when she refuses? I know it comes down to getting a hold of his W.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 09:59 PM
From Mulan's post on Josie's thread about Boundaries...

Quote:

AGG - How do you enforce the boundary of "no OP" in Plan A? Repeat after me: You CAN'T enforce this boundary while in Plan A.

So. Again - How do you enforce the boundary of "no OP" in Plan A?

You enforce it by going to Plan B. Plan B IS the enforcement.

But in the meantime, you don't have to just sit back and cater to the affair while in Plan A. And you shouldn't. Part of Plan A is doing what you can to bust it up.

Here is a Notable Post that might help you:

**********************************
"The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A" by Pepperband

THE CARROT OF PLAN A:

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



THE STICK OF PLAN A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Allowing the consequences of adultery and infidelity to fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to affect children of the marriage or the financial security of the marriage, or otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slain for the good of the family.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.




Look the OM's information up on Intellius; pay the small fee for some information. YOu can get his relatives listed, too, which could include his wife. Then you can look her up, and get info to contact her. There are also other search engines for this purpose; I just used Intellius for my search for OW (I also got contact info for her parents, and called them).

YOU can't make your wife stop her interactions or any contact with OM, but you can expose the affair, while plan A'ing. Have you called the Harley's regarding your situation?

edited to add...

I peaked over on the recovery board and read up on your sitch. Seems you have been thru much of the carrot of Plan A, and you are getting great advice.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 10:24 PM
Thanks SL,

I will try that Intellius. I guess I need to just go down the list. His name is pretty common. Thanks also for the Plan A reminder. I needed that bad.
Posted By: QueeniesAdventures Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 10:51 PM
Quote:

QNL,

I'm doing quite a bit I think. I do the dishes, I'm the one who has to worry about dinner everynight. Making sure the kids homework gets done. I can only do there other EN's when she let's me and right now she doesn't let me at all anymore. I thought we were in better shape a month ago.


I want to defer to the vets on this. But for me, when I read what you are writing it says to me that you are doing things for HER.

That's not Plan A. Plan A is about your plan, what you are doing to create change in yourself to build a new M. You are just showing her that you are capable of meeting her EN's and when you get the opportunity you jump on it.

My WH moved out immediately from D-day and hasn't looked back once. What I can tell you with all my heart and soul is I went down fighting for my M. I have been given almost NO OPPORTUNITIES, but I have made them happen and they came from me because I loved him. I did get caught in expectations, because I wanted to see that I mattered to him.

I never got anything, but I kept doing whenever I could. I have been at this for almost 10 months. My sitch looks hopeless, absolutely hopeless. I am losing the man I love with all my heart and now I am choosing to go into Plan B and quite possibly never see or talk to him again. It's crushing me in spirit and my heart.

But I will tell you that no matter what happens with our M. I somehow with HARD work and guidance from G-d and the special people on here am becoming and continue to become the woman that G-d envisioned for me. I have lost 86 lbs, I have gotten rid of the anger that lived inside me, I realize how much I loved my H and am proud that even though he has consistently treated me like trash and throw me away, I still work at creating opportunities to gain my M back.

I guess what I am saying is, have you realized what your part in creating this situation was and what steps have you taken to change it from ever happening again. Not just by reading on here, but living it?

Does that help?
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 11:02 PM
Yes that's helps a bunch QNL! God has helped more than anyone can know. I don't want any regrets. I'm going to keep fighting until it's dead. I hope she will realize that I've lost so much love for her right now that it's just for the kids anymore. But I know I can gain that back.
Posted By: QueeniesAdventures Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 11:08 PM
Keep coming back here and checking with what you are working on with respect to your Plan. This is about you and what you want to do. I am not an expertise in that area of organizing a plan. Mimi and so many others are WAY more knowledgeable.

You are trying to save your M for the kids?
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 11:11 PM
Yes for the kids. However, I do still love my W. I know it can be better than ever before. So I will go with my head and NOT my feelings. Unlike WW right now. Thanks QNL I appreciate anything. I thought we were going in the right direction, but the NC thingss has killed us.
Posted By: QueeniesAdventures Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 11:28 PM
Remember this is a roller coaster and if contact is still going on, there is NO RECOVERY.

It hardly seems fair that we are the ones doing the changes, we are the ones alway giving, but that's about what it is. And I guess we get to choose if we want to take this place and fight the fight.

I have no idea if my WH will ever consider me more than trash, but whatever happens, I KNOW I did my best and NEVER gave up. Though I wanted to.

I still cry myself to sleep at night holding the torah. I still am in shock that he has completely left us to be with a crack addict with hep C. But I keep fighting.. and most of all.

I HAVE FAITH IN G-D AND LET HIM HAVE THIS. You can do the footwork, but in the end G-d is the one who will recover our M. So are you close to him?
Posted By: QueeniesAdventures Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 02/29/08 11:36 PM
One other thing. And this too was hard for me to understand. But it's true. Your M may not be in recovery, but you are by working a Plan A and looking at your behaviors and changing what you can.

The old AA saying.. Grant me the serenity to accept the things you can not change, Change the things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference.

You are changing, whether your WW will choose to see it is in G-ds hands.

Own and be proud of that you are recovering.

I hope that doesn't seem to corny.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/01/08 02:42 AM
No not at all corny Thank you QNL. I am changing me and my next W (maybe) will get a good H.
Posted By: QueeniesAdventures Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/01/08 02:45 AM
Only G-d knows what the plan is. I think it was Mark who told me, but maybe Johnstwin... He doesn't promise to reveal what the plan is, just that he has a plan.

There is also a scripture that says I know the beginning and the end and it won't be changed or something to that. G-d is changing you for his plans. You and I just need to keep having faith that whatever the plans are will be the best for us.

Also to let go of our WW and let G-d have them. And to most of all have faith in G-d.

Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/01/08 02:52 AM
Your absolutely right. "turn them over to satan".

Yes it is me that is changing. I do trust that God will have mercy on us. Psalm 38:21-22
Posted By: QueeniesAdventures Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/01/08 02:56 AM
They are with Satan. We want them to be broken by G-d. that's when the true healing for them can begin and that's what is most important. Not whether it's during our M or not, but they're soul and spiritual renewal.

Mark said this once, G-d could be using us and our M to bring them back into his fold. We could be for his bigger purpose. We need to accept that and somehow find peace.

you are doing great. I'm proud of you...
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/01/08 02:59 AM
Good point! Thanks
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/01/08 02:43 PM
There maybe a crack. She said she would quit and find another job. More later.
Posted By: Neak Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/01/08 03:13 PM
Don't get your hopes up that she will do that already, until it actually happens. I'm not raining on your parade though, because for her to even say that is VERY GOOD!

The addiction is stronger than she realizes, and it may take all the way into Plan B for it to become more painful to keep going the way she is, than to turn back to her family.

Keep doing what you're doing - it is working.
Posted By: Resonance Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/01/08 06:26 PM
(((Better Days))))

Hey there!

So, there was contact this whole time?? Man, that just stinks! I thought she was making progress...

QNL is right, though...this is when you need to really work on the loving detachment. Expose and use whatever tools you can to end the A. Meet her needs when you can, but do NOT force this issue. In other words, better yourself and do some things that you have always wanted to do...take care of YOURSELF!

So, what are some things you have always wanted to do, and when are you going to hire the P.I.? Take charge of this sitch, Okie, get back in the driver's seat!!!
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 01:20 AM
Your right Neak, I won't believe it until it happens. She hasn't gotten out of bed all day. Just lays in there crying. I mean ALL day!. I went in and asked her if she would come out and join us. She said "what ever you want". Then when she came out it was like "where do you want me to sit?" I just couldn't believe it. This just stinks her acting like such a victim. 15 minutes later she went back into bed. I went and asked what the problem was. She just looked at me and said "you got what you wanted. You got me back". Of course this was sarcastic. I just turned and went back out without saying anything.

Thanks R, I really am tying. I lost 32 lbs. in the month and a half. Too fast. The scars are gonna be very, very deep.
Posted By: Resonance Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 01:35 AM
Better days,

Your wife is in pain, just as you are. Is there any way you can comfort her? Can you go lie with her and hold her or just ask her if there is anything you can do that will help her?

I know this is hard. I know you are in an enormous amount of pain, but please reach out to her. If you can be there for her now and listen to her, you can eventually help each other heal. This is in some ways the hardest part, because you didn't ask to be put in this pain. These were her decisions and she should "suffer the consequences" so to speak. True, very true. But that's why the MB stuff is COUNTER-intuitive. Where your every instinct tells you to just stand back and let your WW wallow in her own pain (she brought it on herself, after all!), the MB plans go against the grain. But they work. Take this opportunity to reach out to her. Don't let her think you don't care, because you DO!

If she gets nasty with you, tell her you can help her through her pain if she will let you. Tell her there is nothing she can say or do that will hurt any worse than losing her love. Tell her you cherish her. Cry with her!

DON'T MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 02:32 PM
Quote:

Your wife is in pain, just as you are. Is there any way you can comfort her? Can you go lie with her and hold her or just ask her if there is anything you can do that will help her?




No, she won't let me. She says she's quitting tomorrow and will continue MC. But she started making damands. I have to change my personality. She wants a enhancement before we ever have SF again (I made the mistake of telling we would with the Tax Money) Now she holding me to that. And that we move.

Quote:

I know this is hard. I know you are in an enormous amount of pain, but please reach out to her.




I really am trying.

Quote:

If she gets nasty with you, tell her you can help her through her pain if she will let you. Tell her there is nothing she can say or do that will hurt any worse than losing her love. Tell her you cherish her. Cry with her!

DON'T MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!




She says she is still not "in it". She said she's taking control of her life now. We argued about that for a while too.

Thanks R, your always a big help. Even under my former name. She read my journal and saw the part about MB. I think some of the stuff she read helped a bit for her. But I love the "change your personality" part. I need to be a fun type of person. I guess OM was a pretty fun guy.

She has to get out of the store she's in with him.
Posted By: medc Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 02:38 PM
Quote:

She wants a enhancement before we ever have SF again (




what a crock of bullchit.
Posted By: Neak Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 05:08 PM
*thud*

That is just plain an excuse. What she is doing (and not doing) has NOTHING to do with size! I would strongly recommend against surgical alterations, especially right now with everything all topsy turvy.

If it's something you really want for YOURSELF later, then to each his own.

But since this is most likely about growing your member to be competitive with OM, I would stay a zillion miles away from that. This is not a competition, because you already have him whooped in EVERY IMPORTANT WAY. No surgery is going to add to your character.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 05:19 PM
Quote:

She wants a enhancement before we ever have SF again




are you deformed in some way?

If the answer is "no"

I'd recommend divorce .... how would such a woman be a loving caring adoring wife when you are both old and sick ?

Life gets more difficult as we get older and our physical bodies age - we need greater integrity as we get older, not less

(if this is actually what she said .... and I have my doubts)
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 05:51 PM
I guess I should clarify. She meant for her.
Posted By: Neak Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 06:10 PM
Is her size an issue with you?

(Hint: the correct answer is "no".)
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 06:19 PM
No it's not. Never has been. I love her exactly the way she is. This is something to do with self esteem I know nothing about. But like I said before, this would be like hanging a steak around your neck in a kennel.
Posted By: RspctLostAtDay1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 06:23 PM
Quote:



Own and be proud of that you are recovering.






I agree. Keep positive.

If you read my posts, you hear people say the same to me. It is true.
Posted By: Resonance Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 06:34 PM
Ah-ha...I wasn't sure, so I was waiting for clarification! (giggling a little, can't help it!)

OK, so she is throwing a bunch of fog babble bullchit and putting up smoke screens to throw you off course. May I suggest that if she wants an "enhancement" let her have it if you can afford it. It will give you a chance to keep her under your roof and dependant on you to take care of her. GREAT Plan A opportunity here.

The problem is that she is in no position to make demands, although she THINKS she is....ignore it. Just totally ignore all of her posturing, because it means very little right now. She is in the "too cool for you" stage of recovery and you just need to put her on ignore and keep Plan A-ing. You must create some boundaries for yourself, though, so that she does not lose respect for you. I would learn the reverse babble-VERY important because it throws the blame back on her without making you sound like an a-hole.

You must learn loving detachment during this period or she will succeed in baiting you every chance she gets. She will do this to justify her A to herself and "prove" that you are some sort of jerk. DON'T LET HER GET TO YOU!!! You must be JOE COOL right now. Seriously, sit down and look through some old pics of yourself from "back in the day" when she first fell for you and try to channel that guy. Do you best to remain calm and upbeat at all times. I really think you can do this, because you don't seem like an overly "reactionary" type person. Make sure you do NOT miss opportunities when their are breaks in the fog, though. When you start to see vulnerability, drop the "act" and make sure you show her how much you adore and love her. Cry with her, talk about things like "cherish" and "remember when" and the whole "life apart" scenario.

What is the "life apart" scenario? You need to make a list of things that you want to be sitting next to her for, holding her hand and sharing the experience together, not seperately....kids graduations, weddings, holidays etc. You want to do these things together as a family, not from across the aisle. Remind her that every other holdiay (Christmas) the kids would be with YOU and she would be ALONE, and quickly follow up with "I want us to share these times together, not on a court schedule." Stuff like that. Write her letters that tell her how much you miss your talks and walks and intimate times. How beautiful/sexy you think she is. Make sure while your face-to-face encounters are "cool" (NO BEGGING, PLEADING, NO CONSTANT "I LOVE YOU") but then you also leave little notes around to show her that you really do care. And DON'T miss those moments of fog clearing!!!!!!

Come on now, BDA (or BAD mamajama), time to get on your suit of armor, learn reverse babble, find that cool cat she fell in love with, and ignore the fog babble.
Posted By: RspctLostAtDay1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 06:43 PM
Quote:

find that cool cat she fell in love with, and ignore the fog babble.




I can relate to that. My post has different details, but I think that this statement is the one I can agree on and believe that most of us can use this bit of advice.
Posted By: Tyk Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 07:28 PM
LMAO!

oh my. . .

I get it BDA.

No, I would not use family $ to buy her new titties right now. I'd tell her that its something you're willing to consider in the future, perhaps after she stops treating you like ****** for a while and demonstrates that she's committed to the marriage. Proceeding with that under the threat of no SF is just being a doormat, definetely. If your relationship is the the point where she thinks she can control you with SF, then YOU need to back off and not act very interested in SF.
Posted By: Neak Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 07:39 PM
I just can't tell you how relieved I am that this is about a steak around her neck, and not around your waist.

Whether or not you go ahead with the ahem enhancement, keep telling her how beautiful she already is.

Also, while you shouldn't act so needy about SF that she thinks she can use that against you, make sure she knows you desire her. Want, not need.
Posted By: Resonance Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 07:59 PM
Well, obviously Tyk is right about not being a doormat, and I agree...kind of 50/50 on that one myself. The ONLY reason you would let her have the surgery is STRATEGICAL on your part-- to keep her home and laid up while you Plan A her...NOT to be a doormat...get it? Logic obviously points out that getting a boob job isn't going to help her major self-esteem issues right now (band-aid on a gaping wound). She WILL have to deal with these issues eventually, your goal right now is to keep her in NC as much as you can. Surgery keeps her immobile and away from others who may negatively influence her, as she is extremely vulnerable right now.

If you want to address the issue of "no SF until I have the surgery" I would reverse babble this rather than sound "demanding" or "controlling." Something like "Well dear, I wouldn't be comfortable having sex with YOU until you are tested and are safe for ME. Besides, I think you are sexy just the way you are...what would you like for dinner?" Make SURE you change the subject and then walk away if she blows a gasket...no getting sucked into heated debates or R and A talks right now! It is futile to try and educate her, but imperative that you maintain your boundaries. Mulan had a great post on boundaries, which is now in Peperband's "Notable Posts" thread on the board (one of the last posts, as she just added it a couple days ago).
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 08:04 PM
Quote:

I just can't tell you how relieved I am that this is about a steak around her neck, and not around your waist.




LMAO
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 08:31 PM
You guys are great!

No there are certain times, obviously, that I would really like to have SF. But right now I'm cool with waiting. She pops off with the babble with stuff like "we need to move out of state". Yeah I have 25 year career here and I will just throw it away to run away to another state with a woman who says "I don't love you".

Also she just left to have coffee with her SIL. When she left she did come over and give me a kiss. The way it's been this week that was shocking.

As I said earlier, she read my journal. That may have worked out good. Although I was very nervious about her finding it.
Posted By: Tyk Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 09:15 PM
I don't think you should be inflexible about the idea of moving out of state, or about the surgery, or any of that. I think those things should be used as carrots in the Plan A effort.

Next time she brings up moving "I've thought about that WW, and I'm not completely opposed to moving. However, I don't see any sense in moving right now. Right now it seems to me that moving would be an attempt to run away from our problems. I think we both know that won't work, we'll simply be moving our problems somewhere else. I'm not comfortable with that. "chorus" What I would like to happen, what I believe can happen, is for us to implement a plan that will restore the love in our marriage, bring us closer together, and give us the tools to build a happy lifelong relationship together. The first step to doing this is for you to end your A and stop contacting OM."end chorus""

Same deal with the surgery: "You know I think you are beautiful the way you are now. I am not completely opposed to you having the surgery, but I feel like I need to understand why. Right now, I am worried that your unfounded poor self image has led you to make several very poor decisions that are destroying our marriage. I am not currently comfortable with our family incurring the expense of your surgery given the tenuous state of our marriage. "insert chorus" "
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/02/08 09:31 PM
Tyk,

I think your right about this, but I have good job that I make good money at. I could transfer, but that would be awhile away. Without a degree I couldn't make what I make now. This is what she knows, but just wants to throw out the fogbabble.

As far as the surgery, we did dicuss this before all of this. But I have always been strongly opposed to it. But for personally, that's fine. She has to live with dicision. I just want her full force in the marriage first.

Not bad about the carrot though.
Posted By: QueeniesAdventures Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/03/08 05:48 AM
Quote:

I just can't tell you how relieved I am that this is about a steak around her neck, and not around your waist.


Oh my gosh.... This is the best laugh I have had in a long time....
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/03/08 12:54 PM
Ever since my WW read my journal, she's been watching me on the internet. She knows I post stuff here. But she hasn't been to the site yet. She can believe I'm getting advice from a bunch "idiots" on the internet. So I'm finally getting a chance to respond.

Quote:

Ah-ha...I wasn't sure, so I was waiting for clarification! (giggling a little, can't help it!)




I at least got a good chuckle out that myself.

Quote:

The problem is that she is in no position to make demands, although she THINKS she is....ignore it. Just totally ignore all of her posturing, because it means very little right now. She is in the "too cool for you" stage of recovery and you just need to put her on ignore and keep Plan A-ing. You must create some boundaries for yourself, though, so that she does not lose respect for you. I would learn the reverse babble-VERY important because it throws the blame back on her without making you sound like an a-hole.




This is what amazes me. Her demands. But I can do this. I need to bring back my quick witted self. Without the a-hole part.

Quote:

You must learn loving detachment during this period or she will succeed in baiting you every chance she gets. She will do this to justify her A to herself and "prove" that you are some sort of jerk. DON'T LET HER GET TO YOU!!! You must be JOE COOL right now. Seriously, sit down and look through some old pics of yourself from "back in the day" when she first fell for you and try to channel that guy.




This is the hard part right now. But I am getting better at it. I guess you can only beat a dog so long.

Quote:

What is the "life apart" scenario? You need to make a list of things that you want to be sitting next to her for, holding her hand and sharing the experience together, not seperately....kids graduations, weddings, holidays etc. You want to do these things together as a family, not from across the aisle. Remind her that every other holdiay (Christmas) the kids would be with YOU and she would be ALONE, and quickly follow up with "I want us to share these times together, not on a court schedule." Stuff like that.




I did do this. I think that was the other thing she really realized. Plus trying to live alone with 4 kids. I asked her how the OM would react to her showing up with 4 kids and saying "we're here". She just popped off with "why don't you ask him?" I just said "not a bad idea, I've been wanting to talk to him."

Quote:

Write her letters that tell her how much you miss your talks and walks and intimate times. How beautiful/sexy you think she is. Make sure while your face-to-face encounters are "cool" (NO BEGGING, PLEADING, NO CONSTANT "I LOVE YOU") but then you also leave little notes around to show her that you really do care. And DON'T miss those moments of fog clearing!!!!!!




I was doing this, but that was before I realized we really weren't in recovery at all.

Quote:

The ONLY reason you would let her have the surgery is STRATEGICAL on your part




I agree with this. I did tell her 6 months ago that if she really just had to have that done, I wouldn't stand in her way anymore. But don't act like your doing it for me.

Quote:

Logic obviously points out that getting a boob job isn't going to help her major self-esteem issues right now (band-aid on a gaping wound). She WILL have to deal with these issues eventually, your goal right now is to keep her in NC as much as you can.




Logic doesn't work with her. You have to tie feelings to it first. But your right about her dealing with it.

Quote:

If you want to address the issue of "no SF until I have the surgery" I would reverse babble this rather than sound "demanding" or "controlling." Something like "Well dear, I wouldn't be comfortable having sex with YOU until you are tested and are safe for ME. Besides, I think you are sexy just the way you are...what would you like for dinner?" Make SURE you change the subject and then walk away if she blows a gasket




I like this response.

Quote:

It is futile to try and educate her, but imperative that you maintain your boundaries.




Your not a kiddin'

Quote:

Mulan had a great post on boundaries, which is now in Peperband's "Notable Posts" thread on the board (one of the last posts, as she just added it a couple days ago).




I'll go read those.
Posted By: SweetGuysLose69 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/03/08 08:13 PM
"She has no love for me and can't ever get it back" FOGSPEAK

"She's still in contact with this guy and won't quit with the contact" FOGSPEAK

"She says she doesn't want to run off with this guy, just wants to be left alone" FOGSPEAK

"She won't leave the house and neither will I. Wants me to move out." FOGSPEAK

Geezus... were you at my house this weekend? Scary similarities.... and amazing how much easier it is bear when I hear that you heard the same exact thing. Wow... exact same words, literally. I wish I could be as strong as I am telling you to be. Scary similarities though... Do not leave. I had to leave for one night, broke down and just could not bear it, could not function. But now I'm back and trust me I shouldn't have left, so DON'T LEAVE!!!! No matter what!!! She'll tell you she'll call the police, say "OK" and walk away, don't leave unless they make you. I think WS's almost never follow thru with that one.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/03/08 10:08 PM
Quote:

Geezus... were you at my house this weekend? Scary similarities.... and amazing how much easier it is bear when I hear that you heard the same exact thing. Wow... exact same words, literally. I wish I could be as strong as I am telling you to be. Scary similarities though...




I was just telling a guy today that it's funny how it all seems to be "by the book". Just like you, your brain knows what to do and what's going on, but your worry can get to you and you make mistakes. I've done that so many times it's not funny. I've caved in. then had to regroup. But I just have to stay on course and not give in to the worry.

Like you said though, it's comforting to hear someone else has had the same things said and done to them. Not good, but comforting.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/04/08 08:17 PM
My WW is freaking out right now. She won't go see the MC'er. She is scared to death. She won't quit unless we "move out right now and into an apartment". I can hear the fear in her voice. She is so scared she won't do anything but panic. I guess I just continue with Plan A. She won't leave, and neither will I. The kids, you can tell, are a nervous wreck. I guess I'm going to see the MC alone again tonight. This really stinks.
Posted By: Resonance Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/04/08 09:31 PM
Put your arm around her shoulder and look straight into her eyes and say "You have nothing to be afraid of, you know. I swore I would protect you for better or worse. Come with me and we'll help each other figure this out TOGETHER!"

Please try it, BDA, don't tell me "Well, I tried and she just won't let me, etc.."

DON'T MAKE ME GET TOUGH ON YOU, MISTA!!!

As Mr. W would say, you do these things KNOWING on the inside that you have all the cards, all the info, all the support, all the weapons, etc to fight this battle. YOU are in control, YOU know she can't live without you. STOP letting her convince you otherwise. Do it with that sly grin that says "I KNOW I am the one she really wants no matter WHAT she says."

QUIT LETTING HER JERK YOU AROUND DANGIT!!!
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/04/08 09:52 PM
Thanks LaLa, I will try.
Posted By: QueeniesAdventures Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/04/08 10:54 PM
Pray for the strength and know that WE BELIEVE in you. Want it bad enough and know that it's up to YOU to be the lighthouse for your FAMILY.

I remember when Mimi would have me do something that totally freaked me out. But I did because I wanted my M more than anything else.

Don't let an opportunity for recovery pass you by and one day have a regret.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/05/08 12:22 PM
Your right. I don't know what to do but to "keep truckin'". I ended up going to MC alone again. After I ran some errands and then came home. I was happy last night and we watched tv., played with the little ones. We didn't fight. I just have to trust God completely now. Continue Plan A as long as I can. It's going to be hard to get over some of the horrible things she said to me. But I'll leave that to God also.
Posted By: Resonance Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/05/08 04:00 PM
Um, BDA...did you do what I suggested? (to get her to come to MC?)

You know, you really need to re-adjust your Plan A. Your Plan A is MUCH too dependant on what she throws at you as opposed to the way it SHOULD be...

Plan A is about YOU, not her. It is about finding the strength within YOURSELF. It is about putting her on ignore and KNOWING that you are what she needs whether SHE thinks that right now or not. Remember, she is not thinking clearly...she doesn't have a CLUE what she wants. You have to show her!! "Keep truckin" is NOT the right attitude. Change that to..."Ha! Look how she is acting...I know better! She is a lost soul and I am all the man she will EVAH need!" You do not verbalize this...it must be actualized in your presence.

So, don't placate me with "You're right!" DO something to change your attitude and start winning this war. I am going to tell you FLAT OUT...at the stage she is in right now (are you snooping to verify NC?), if you keep floundering and do not get yourself some confidance and control, you WILL lose this battle. And maybe the war.

I will say it again...maybe this time you will listen...

QUIT LETTING HER CONTROL YOUR EVERY MOVE!!
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/05/08 04:23 PM
I determined yesterday to do that very thing. To do it for me. I am going to be the happy F I was. I did this last night. I am not going to give in to her unrational demands. I will do something with the kids whether she goes or not.

There is still contact with the OM. They still work together and he doesn't get transfered until late April or early May. She refuses to quit her job. They don't work directly together and their shifts differ slightly. They are in the store together 3 days a week. OM in the front, WW in the back. But I realize that's not the same as NC. She also has refused to move out. I won't move out. Everyone has been exposed that I know of. She won't go to MC right now. I don't know exactly why, but after the first meeting she really like the C. But she will not go now. If they contact each other it is in the store or from pay phones, but I do keep track elsewhere the best I can. So when I say keep truckin' I mean keep the Plan A happy F attitude and look for cracks to end the contact. Right now she is anxious one minute and depressed the next. But that's also why she won't quit.

I started to work out again. I've lost 32 lbs. I will improve for our marriage or my next one.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/08/08 08:04 PM
Well things are going better. She's starting to see what a person this OM is. She is going to get her resume' ready today. We had a good time last night with the kids.

It started rocky as she had a auto accident. Probably totalled our van. We went to go pick up our rental this morning. She really opened up this morning with me. I have to go with DS11 to a baseball tourney. We'll see how tonight goes. Not going to claim that we're recovering until they have complete NC this time.
Posted By: Resonance Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/08/08 09:32 PM
Yep...and it will take 6-8 weeks of NC to start to see little glimpses of your old wife again. Hang in there...you can do this! Loving detachment, BDA...loving detachment! Don't miss those opportunities of fog clearing!!!
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/10/08 11:44 AM
Quote:

Yep...and it will take 6-8 weeks of NC to start to see little glimpses of your old wife again.




I'm actually starting to see it now. She started to say things that makes me believe she's seeing clearer. At least she realizes she has to get out of that place and find another job. She also is realizing things she really doesn't like about OM. It's a start. Long, long way to go.
Posted By: Tyk Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/10/08 01:32 PM
Just a short story for you BDA. Before I knew about my WW A, back when I believed the "I love you but not in love with you" crap and didn't know what was going on: we'd have good days, good weeks even. Things would start to seem like they were going back to normal, and then for no reason I could understand they'd go right back to crappy again. These cycles would go for weeks sometimes, and I'd start to relax my guard and hope again. I don't know exactly what was happening, but I am pretty sure this all had to do with the ebbs and flows of the A. What I DO know is that it stopped when the A stopped, and not a second before.

So don't read much, if anything, into her changes in mood towards you while she is still in contact with OM. Keep up on Plan A, as it will still cause conflict within her, but don't allow yourself to be thrown off by her temporary "niceness".
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/10/08 01:36 PM
I kind of figured this Tyk. I know until she in having NC, I can't count on anything. Took me awhile to figure this out. Thanks.
Posted By: webjogger Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/10/08 01:50 PM
Gotta agree with Tyk. We had those cycles too, when I thought we had NC - and I couldn't understand what was going on. Couldn't figure out why he was acting the way he was. But once the A was really over, all that stopped. All the excuses, the complaining about me checking up on him, the attitudes....gone, when the affair truly ended.

I hope your W's job change happens soon and helps to bring about some change for you.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/11/08 10:38 PM
Well the WW is going to MC tonight without me this time. I'm so happy she's going. I told her to "let me have it" if that's what it takes. If I'm screwed up then I need help. I don't know how it will come out, but it's a start. Next to get her resume out. I'll be glad when there is NC.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/31/08 03:35 PM
ok things haven't been that great this past week. She has been cold and mean. I found out last night she talk to OM for 40 minutes. Since she won't move out, is it time for me to move out? At least if she's not willing to change? I know this won't be good on the kids, but how long do I put up with this?
Posted By: coachswife Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 03/31/08 08:49 PM
I will let some of the veteran's respond- however, most of them say.

Don't leave your home!!!!!!

Don't leave your home!!!!!!

Don't leave your home!!!!!!
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 04/01/08 02:48 AM
Thanks. I will follow that advice. I just feel like such an idiot for putting up with this.
Posted By: coachswife Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 04/01/08 04:59 PM
Bumping!

Can someone else more experienced weigh in here?
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 04/01/08 06:10 PM
I'm certainly no more experienced than coachswife, but I am wondering if your wife's cell is paid for by you. Could you have it cut off? Also, I agree that you should not leave your home; a very big mistake, IMO. Have you asked your wife to leave? Do you want her to leave? If not, have you asked her to consider counselling? Forgive me, for I do not know your entire history.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 04/01/08 06:48 PM
Yes I have asked her. She says she is not leaving. My problem is that I know, she knows, this A is over and wouldn't work out anyway. But she has to get her fix every couple of weeks. We are going to counseling and she told me and the MC'er last night she would not call him anymore. Well we'll see.

She hasn't done much to build trust with me. Plus I can tell when she's had contact. She treats me not so good. This last time I felt things were really getting better. Then Sunday night, she calls him and talks for 45 minutes. It's been pretty ruff on me and I'm not sure how much more I can take.

We'll see if she keeps this promise. She doesn't have a good track record though. She thinks I should understand that she would slip. I just asked if it was ok If I started calling women from work just to chat. The answer is "No". Then I remind her that I haven't even had an A with any of them, so why can't she see my point?
Posted By: coachswife Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 04/03/08 05:58 PM
If she's uncomfortable with you being there then she is the one who needs to leave.

I would not leave my home period.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 04/04/08 01:03 PM
Your right, plus it wouldn't be good for the kids. I think my problem is I'm starting to check out of this marriage. I feel I am going to long doing everything for her and not getting anything met for me.

God has protected me so far. I can see why someone in my situation could very easily have an A themselves. It's a good thing I don't work around any women.

What's funny about all of this is that I really don't need to have anyone. But when you live with someone you want your R to be good. I've read how much BS do for their WS just to save the marriage and it almost makes you sick. I can't seem to make my wife go in any direction. I'm starting to believe that things won't get better, that she won't change. I'm starting to resent her. Nobody can talk to her.

It's been over 4 months since D-Day and we're no closer to recovery than when we started. MC hasn't helped. She won't do anything the C says to do. Like spending time with me.

Do they ever really realize how much pain they caused? When does recovery start? When will she start to do something for me before it's too late? I don't expect answers to those questions. I want an equal marriage. I continue to hear from her that "I'm just not in it".

I'm just getting wore down and needed to vent. I just would love to have someone to share my life with. This can't stay like this for much longer. I don't expect things to be fix over night, I just want them to go in that direction.

I know I'm just having a pity party this morning. But I'm just slap wore out about this.

but I agree CW, I will not leave my home until we get a D (not that that's where this is headed) and sell it. I will not get a girlfriend before then either. ;\)
Posted By: coachswife Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 04/04/08 06:39 PM
Yes, protect your boundaries. You're very vulnerable for an A right now, with your needs not being met.

I hope some others will weigh in because I'm not a MB expert. I think though I've heard others say that Plan A is about you meeting her needs- with no expectations that she will do the same.

I'm a FWW who didn't recover her marriage. You're asking if they ever regret or feel bad for what they've done. Yes,
they do. I've had terrible guilt over what I did to my ex husband and especially my children.

I should have just divorced rather than have an A. There was a very high level of neglect in my marriage. I don't regret the fact that I divorced really, it's more that I hate that I hurt my ex the way I did- and I hate the way I hurt my children- and
the ways it will affect them. No matter how he had treated me I should have remained faithful and done things the right way.

I didn't, for example, think how would I feel when my children's stepmom painted her nails or tucked them in at night. That never crossed my mind that someone else might tuck my kids in! That's the kind of things WW's do not think about!

Why don't you ask her that question?? ;\)

I'm remarried now (not to the OM) and things are good in my marriage. I still do have terrible guilt. I've asked for forgiveness from my BH and he's chosen not to forgive me. I can understand how he feels that way- but he's remarried as well!

I just wanted to let you know that I do believe they eventually regret it- because if you've been a good person and you end up doing something this bad it's gonna stick with you. I found out about a year and a half ago I'm bipolar which my dr thinks it contributed to me having the A. I'm medicated now and in a much better place. I can't go to my FH and tell him- hey, I've really been ill and wasn't myself because of being bipolar. He'd just think I was trying to excuse my actions or try to use it against me as far as my children go.

For me, and this is something I've only come to realize- the affair was about filling up a hole inside myself. My closest relative died and I was devastated. The only person who had ever put me first in the world has left this world. I didn't know how to process it. It was like the loss of her left a big hole in me that I tried to fill with other things. The kids, the house, etc- because my H was never home. I was searching for something to fill me up- when in reality I have to be the one who fills myself up. For me, it's a God sized hole too.

I'm rambling- but I hope that you get what I'm saying and it's helped you a little.
Posted By: Miss Priss Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 04/04/08 07:05 PM
Your WW is going to have to hit rock bottom before she sees the light of exactly what she's doing.

Then and only then will she be willing to get off the fence that she's sitting on.

Nobody will be able to help her see it and she won't get help until she feels the need for it.

She seems to still be in the..."It's all about me" stage.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 04/04/08 09:15 PM
Thanks, CW for being so honest. It does give me comfort to hear things like this from you. That helps a bunch. I guess that's the difference between me and your FH. I do realize my part in this. I want to fix me. As I have said before, even if it's not with her my next W will get a better husband than she had.

Miss Priss, I have to agree. She is the most selfish person I think I've ever met at the moment. She really doesn't care how I feel right now. My heart could explode right now and she might look at me and say "oh that's not good". If I was lucky.
Posted By: coachswife Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 04/04/08 09:59 PM
 Originally Posted By: BetterDaysAhead
Thanks, CW for being so honest. It does give me comfort to hear things like this from you. That helps a bunch. I guess that's the difference between me and your FH. I do realize my part in this. I want to fix me. As I have said before, even if it's not with her my next W will get a better husband than she had.



Well to be fair, he was willing to try to fix things too. It's just it was a little too late for me. I'd had serious talks with him about being unhappy, that I felt we were roommates,
I was very specific with him about what I was looking for. I was not one of the WW who never said there was a problem.

Yet when you tell your spouse "I will leave you or have an affair if you don't start working on our marriage" and your spouse says "I don't have time to work on our marriage" That kinda lets you know where you stand on the list of priorities. \:\( That still hurts when I repeat it.

He wouldn't do counseling, work MB, or any other marital program until I said I wanted a divorce.

I wasn't really planning on having an affair when I said it nor did I go looking for one in revenge.

It's funny. I'd say the divorce turned him into a better dad than he was but he still does the same things to his new wife he did to me. So, he still hasn't worked on himself. His new wife (who I've known for probably 20 years) is one who will never insist on having her needs met. When she was married before- her husband was very very selfish and she never stood up to him. She was the perfect one to marry my FH!

It's good that you are working on yourself. My current husband was the BS in his marriage. He went to counseling by himself and worked on his issues to be a better spouse. Boy, I've been reaping the benefits of that! So you're right. If she doesn't appreciate it the next person in your life will!
Posted By: webjogger Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 05/03/08 02:16 AM
Hey Better Days - Just wondering how you are doing? Haven't seen anything from you in awhile. Wanted to let you know that I was thinking of you, hoping things are going better for you.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 05/07/08 02:28 PM
Hey WJ,

good to hear from you. This is the update I put on my other thread.

 Quote:
Well, she never would make a committment to our marriage. She wanted a D. So I went to an online place that does a great job of putting all the paper work together for a uncontested D. My W is being very civil and wants to remain friends. I agree. So I spent the $199 to do this and then as soon as we sign everything I file for $65. That was a week and a half ago. Right after that my W started treating me great. The whole week. I finally asked her if she was going to look over the paperwork or not. If she still wanted the D. She then told me that she was having doubts about the D. I thought "I just spent $199 to get you to that point?" So that's where I'm at. I don't know what to think. It would be worth the $199 if that's what it took, but after I had given up I really geared myself for everything. I had already clicked my brain over to being single again and having to worry about an apartment and everything else. I'm just kind of sitting on this for now, but I may have gone too far in my own mind and emotions. Maybe that's good. She's going to have to work some to keep the marriage alive. Because once I click that brain over I really don't care much one way or the other. I figured I would get to that point and I did. We'll see if she's willing to do what it takes to fix our marriage. Yes I still care for her and want to keep the M, but I have already calculated what life without her would be. I am still giving her the Plan A treatment, but if it ends...ok. I know that's sad, but it the truth.

-okie


So I haven't given up just near the end.
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 05/07/08 05:05 PM
 Originally Posted By: Okieflyer1
Well, she never would make a committment to our marriage. She wanted a D. So I went to an online place that does a great job of putting all the paper work together for a uncontested D. My W is being very civil and wants to remain friends. I agree.


A feature of all waywards, and sometimes even former-waywards, is that they're driven by their feelings, and rarely spend much time thinking about the consequences of their actions. If anything, more time is spend on finding ways to AVOID the consequences of their actions.

With that in mind, I might have approached that D-talk differently, and basically point out what the future was likely going to be like (e.g. lower quality of living, etc.), if she hadn't thought about that already.

I certainly would not have agreed to "remain friends" or do any of the D-work for her.
Posted By: Okieflyer1 Re: Since I'm not in recovery. - 05/07/08 11:05 PM
I agree with you 100% MIM. She has definately become feelings driven. But I'm to the point I almost want the D myself. That's the sad part. She'll have to do something, because I can't live like this anymore. I really have reached the edge. I think it will literally take her getting out before anything can happen. The bad thing is that it maybe too late by then.
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