Here's the question...
I was soo wrong, apparently, about the state of my marriage. I knew the H was having some troubles 'communicating' with me, but he's pretty quiet and has troubles communicating with everybody. I'm a bit more extraverted so I simply chalked it up to personality differences. And, then there was the SF thing...Yes, I heard him say he wanted more, but he never really heard me saying what I wanted. So, we got into a stand-off which eventually ended up with a third party in our marriage. Now, years ago I may have thought an EA would be relatively pain free. Boy, was I wrong! This ripped through the very heart of our family. This horrific person courted my H and made herself sooo available to him that he easily took the bait. Dont' get me wrong, I don't totally blame her, but my respect for those who specifically gun for married people in order to get what they think they are entitled to make me a bit ill.

So, a year later and many tears shed, I am here. I have learned to rely quite heavily on this board for moral support. It also helps me to validate some of my crazy moments that I had no idea others were suffering from too! But, here's my question. I was so wrong for so long, but it all seems good now. Since the removal of daily influence from the OW, my H and I see each other through new eyes. His fog has surely lifted and he actually seems to WANT to be with me. He WANTS to hold my hand, he WANTS to kiss the back of my neck, he WANTS to sit and watch 'fluff and puff tv' (as he calls my shows)...And, it's the reverse too...I WANT to learn about his day, I WANT to hear about his soggy hoagie in the conference room meeting, I WANT to sit in the window and watch him cut the lawn, I WANT to go on long walks discussing trees & nature. Can this be? Has there truely been a breakthrough? Could this wicked person have helped our marriage? No, I give her no credit...it's all ours, because we stuck it out and are making it work. But, my gut says he feels differently now. I'm so afraid to get cocky and self assured, as I'm usually waiting for the other shoe to drop, but there are actually moments when I think it may be better. Can I trust myself yet? Is there a period of honeymooning when you need to be excited but not get too overwhelmed with what may be early goodness? Is it too soon to feel loved again? I know it's a long process and I know I fight the fight every day, but I need to know...

Bravo to you, fiori!


Exactly. The affair did untold damage on your marriage and your psyche. The credit for the survival goes to you and your H, not the affair, not the OW. The stabber gets no credit when his victim survives.

You know, one time very early on, I met with OW and she actually had the nerve to say to me..."you know, if I'm the spark that ignites an otherwise stale relationship, I'll know I did something good". COME ON!! It was all I could do to not reach across the table and rip her dumpy little head off...Oh, sorry, I got a little carried away there!

GAG ME!

I applaud you for not slapping that HO out of her chair like she deserved. You deserve a medal because that is sure what I would have done!

I honestly can't believe some of these tramps actually can rationalize their gutter trash behavior. Your restraint is amazing.

At this point, I have daydreams about really terrible things happening to OW. Sometimes I inflict those terrible things. I would not have been able to keep from punching her if I'd been in your shoes.

Big congratulations on your recovery!

But, is it too soon to feel good? Is there a general time limit on this? Can it be possible that these feelings of happiness are real? I'm so afraid to be confident right now.

Oh, and by the way...I have fantacies about ripping her head off. I just know that if I was put in jail, my kids clothing would never match again and that wench would come into my home (if she had her way). So, the thought of my boys wearing striped shirts with plaid shorts keeps me on the straight and narrow~!

fiori, you will have dramatic ups and downs over the next few months. You are likely relieved that contact has just ended. Recovery takes a long time.


Well, only you know if you are faking it!

I wish I had the answer for you, but I'm not even in recovery yet so I'm the last one who can help you here. My thought is that you should enjoy the good things that are happening and continue to be the wife you want to be for the rest of your life. Continue to meet your FWH needs and cherish him. But, be aware of everything and keep your eyes and ears open for signs of back sliding.

Fiori,

I am about the same time post d-day as you. Overall I feel that through R the MB princples we have learned have helped us bring our M to the best place it has ever been...really.

I just wanted to give you a heads-up that despite the happiness I feel in our R, triggers have done a number on me, and I suspect will be a problem for me for some time to come...

I know your H is having NC with OW, but the fact that they still work together will likely be a big trigger for you (at least it would be for me).

But I am happy to hear you guys are in a good place...hang in there!

Oh my gosh, fiori, please tell me your H does not still work with the OW?

I agree. The fact that she is still at the same company is really a problem for me. He knows this...I make sure of it. I used to talk about it alot, but have now been able to hand pick the times when we discuss it. He has sent out a few resume's and seems to be upbeat about getting a new job. He sees it as a new beginning too. It's funny, though, because he brought me to his office and showed me how FAR from him her area is. Why is it that now it seems as if it's the great divide but previously it was not a deterrent at all? Funny how perspective changes when attitudes do.
But, the good thing is...he seems happy with me. I really believe this because I just don't think you can fake that. He picked at me non stop when she was in the picture and without her influence, I must not seem too bad. Actually, I believe I'm a pretty good catch! Excuse me while I reach back to pat myself on the back! Hey, if I don't...who will?

fiori, is your signature not correct:

No Melody...not with. Just still in the same corporation. No contact or any run-ins as he had her transferred to another dept. in October and filed a grievance with her bosses twice. Don't worry, I'm not that dumb.

why do you ask that?
what did I do wrong?

He met her last January when she was transferred into his dept. at work. Her H left her in February and then through her tears and heartache, they became 'friends'. It took til the following October for him to finally tell her he was not leaving me for her. It took her another four months and much stalking of our entire family for her to see that he was NOT leaving me for her. He has not spoken or interracted in any way since February 2008. See why I'm so afraid to be hopeful?

Oh dear. fiori, do you know that your marriage cannot recover until they end contact? This is like sending a drunk into the bar every day and changing the name of his DRINKS to "workplace drinks" and expecting him to sober up. Ain't going to happen. Your H cannot withdraw until contact ends. And your marriage will NEVER recover until that happens. Your H will be in a perpetual state of withdrawal.

I am so sorry.

Yes, I do get that. My eyes are open, this I promise you. More, I promise this to me. Now, do you see why I'm so scared to be hopeful?

Can I trust my gut to think that he sees ME and not her? He says they never see each other and have absolutely NO contact at all. I get the drink analogy. I have explained to him countless times that he cannot just walk the walk and talk the talk...he MUST leave the company and start fresh. He is in the process of doing this now. Resume's are out and prosepcts look good. Change, total change, is within my grasp. I am not speaking irrationally, I am intelligent enough to understand the pitfalls. But, do I let the pitfalls run my life or do I run it myself? When is a safe time to enjoy being happy? Am I not safe until he leaves the company? Am I still walking on egg shells? This is what I need to know.

Yes. You should not be hopeful at all until contact ends. I am sorry, but that is the Gods honest truth. As long as they see each other every day at work, he can't withdraw. This is how 6 month affairs turn into 5 and 10 year on-off again affairs.

You have damned yourself to a death of a thousand cuts by going along with this.

This is the same as an alcoholic practicing "controlled drinking." Pretty soon, a weak moment collides with opportunity and he is back to binge drinking. That is what you risk EVERY DAY that he goes to work to see his OW.

thank you. it puts a pit in my stomach but I know you speak the truth. Can we go back to the part when I was ripping her dumpy head off?

No. Because he sees her every day. That is a true fact.


That is not true. He sees her at work every day, THAT IS CONTACT. Secondly, you only have the word of a liar about the EXTENT of contact. All waywards are liars, it is a classic trait.


You ARE letting the pitfalls run your life right now. Your marriage and mental health are not safe. You are placing yourself and your marriage in grave danger by agreeing to this set up. You are playing Russian Roulette with your marriage.

I liked dat part, too!

Mel,
It's funny...H just called after his morning meetings. He's trying to get out early and come home...
Anyway, without me bringing it up he says to me..."you know, I'm feeling much better lately. Without the interaction with OW I feel so much happier and am able to really enjoy our time much more. It's amazing how different it feels' So, I took it upon myself to bring up your bar analogy and I told him "you know, that's all well and good, but you're still an alcoholic tending bar. You cannot expect me to think it's ok that just because you say everything is fine, it is. Everything is not fine and you cannot continue to go to the bar every day and have a drink dangled in front of your face'. He said...I know, I agree with what you're saying. I did not initially agree because I thought that was stupid, but I do agree now. We will get through this and I will do what has to be done".

So, good right? I know, I won't hang my hat on it, but it's a beginning. I have made it crystal clear that I will NOT tolerate his being there with her in the vicinity. What happens if he gets another job in the city and she's still working in the city? Do I have to clear him out of the zip code? ITs' a big city, but is it big enough?

fiori, if you go read some of lifechoice's posts, she will tell you that she did not really come out of the fog until she stopped working with the OM.

So, even if he doesn't still interact with the OW TODAY, just being in her vicinity in the same building keeps him from withdrawing and keeps him in a state of fog. That is the BEST CASE SCENARIO. More often than not, the affair resumes because the affairees are TRIGGERED EVER DAY and they eventually give into it.

I have been here for 7 years and this is one corner I would NEVER EVER cut. Doing so consistently leads to disaster.

Print this out and hand it to him:

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

The only other thing I would add...

Have you and your H watched the Infidelity Video by Dr. Harley found on the home page here? It is pretty powerful. I think it was the equivalent of a smack in the face for my H and he actually cried while watching it.

It really illustrates 1) how painful the A is to the BS and 2) the importance of NC...and more. I think it would be helpful for your H to see...not to mention it's straight from Dr. Harley's mouth.

Mel & tbp,
Well, last night H and I had a long chat regarding the revelations here. He says that he understands completely about having to be out of the company where she still works. I do fear, however, that she will follow him elsewhere and I cannot do anything to stop her. A bit desperate, she is.
But, I printed out the 'transcripts' of our entire exchange and gave it to him to read. This was very good reading for him...I appreciate your blunt kindness. We're chugging along!!!

Melody,
I'm still curious as to why you think my line at the bottom is incorrect.

Then he would have to move again, i fear. And perhaps eventually get a restraining order. But it is essential if you ever want to recover your marriage. Remember, recovery cannot begin until contact ENDS and that has not happened yet.


hopefully, that will help you make a decision to chug *FORWARD* into recovery. And that can happen once he ends contact. Recovery starts when contact ENDS.


Because contact HAS NOT ENDED. Your tag line says "NC 3/08 Finally!" but that is not accurate. They work together.

Fiori,
Told you I'd get here eventually. My story really is much closer to yours than I imagined. I have a little different perspective on NC. Ideally, we could insulate our H's to where OW would never find them. Reality is OW can if she wants to no matter where H is. How much did we find about OWs with just a few minutes at the computer? My H does not work in the same building as OW, but she is a work contact. We have 4 kids, a new house and I homeschool, so he can not easily pick up and find a new job. Also, he would have to leave his entire field because the company she works for is a supplier for that industry. He has taken steps to insure no contact. I did not inform OWH of the affair. I understand why this is reccomended and I do waver on what I should have done, but I could not be the one to inflict the kind of pain I feel on another person. So one layer of protection is that she knows in no uncertain terms that if she so much as dials my H's number by accident, her H will know about the A. As well as info she shared with my H during that time that her H doesn't know. Even though it wasn't presented in a positive light when H initiated NC my H made it clear that I'm rather strong willed and determined(I believed he used a less flattering term) and I will not stop short of destroying her miserable little life. H has also insured that any contact with anyone at her workplace is handled by a third party. As far as triggers I believe H when he tells me the only emotions triggered are regret, sorrow, and disgust at himself for what he's done. If these emotions were lacking, I would not believe his sincerity. Why should I? I know he's capable of lying. Very convincingly. I also see that he's different in the way he carries himself, his walk with God, the way he handles our marriage, his interactions with other people. He has very well defined boundaries now. He can't slide down the slope if he doesn't go near the hilltop. I still worry. I still doubt, but I think my reactions are based more on fear than reality. I do absolutely check up on him and he is held accountable. I don't blindly trust as I used to. I don't say my H would never do that. As long as we keep the MB principles working in our M. Along with lots of hard work. I do not believe it will happen again. If OW would fall off the planet, it would be helpful. I also fear job change at dday and now. H has given no current reason for me to have this fear. But it's a whole new pool of potential OWs. In my head I understand the dynamics and that she isn't better, but I still face the fear that he'll meet someone who is. Not because he feels that way, but because I haven't come to grips with the idea that he could throw away his family (and me) for something so absolutely worthless.
If you read the last post on my thread, it looks like H may have to change jobs, so I'll have to get over that. H's BF is working on creating a position for him. Different, but related field that does not use OWs company. That would be ideal as BF says he would never hire H if he thought he'd have another A and if it happened while working for BF, friend or not, he's out the door. Keep your fingers crossed.
Trust yourself on this one. You're eyes are open. Don't let fear of what may happen overshadow happiness in your M.
Be Jell-o!-Turk

Mel,
I see your point...just not totally. I suppose I judge the NC on how things used to be and how they are in reality now. Do I trust H 100%? NO, I do not. But, I live with a man who treated me completely differently when this OW had daily influence. Now, I feel it's different. I know what you mean by NC, and this is much preferred by me...I will change the tag line...but keep checking on me in the future...it will come back!
I believe this constitutes NC, but I understand your point. I torn about this one because I know H. I'll give this some thought today.

Turk,
Thanks for helping me sort out some stuff. I do agree with Mel and Bitter for the most part, but I also have to put SOME faith in H. I feel the vets getting ready to slam me now for not having my eyes wide open. Really, they are. He's just different now and he speaks of the difference to me. I don't know why or how our relationship deteriorated to this point, but it did and now I have to make the new second half of my marriage work better than before. I love this man and he hurt me. I may never recover from this totally and it may live on a shelf somewhere in my brain forever. But, I have to put a little faith in him about moving forward. OW does still work in the same building. But, not same dept. and there is no connection between the two. He knows where I stand on this and he knows it's imperative he find new employment. I wish it was that easy, though. He's VP level and this position with what he does is not easy to just slip into easily. Plus, we have two kids in private school and a mortgage...you know, the basic family stuff. We're trying, really we are. I just take it one day at a time. He knows I believe that every day when he goes to work I feel like he's putting another weight on my shoulder that I have to hold by myself. Our MC (who is pro-marriage), believes in NC but told H that until he found new employment it was his responsibility to come home every day and give me an accounting as to how his day was. Did he see her in the elevator? Did he see her in the hallway? Did she walk by his area of the building? Did she try to make any type of contact? He does this mostly on his own, but usually I ask prior to him getting it out.
I don't know...this is all so confusing. Sometimes I feel hopeful and then I come here and feel down again. Hmmmmm....
New day...new ideas! Good luck with new employment for H. I hope it all works out.

While you and your husband choose to keep him at the same place of employment as the OW, insecurities will be inevitable on your part. How you deal with them is up to you. As long as he is fully open with everything, I see no problem if you are OK with him staying there

Myself, I would not accept anything but NC. My wife rejected leaving her place of employment. Subsequently, I divorced her. My feeling was if she did not value or relationship enough to find alterior work, then I did not care enough to stay after the affair.

In the end, everyone is different. Every situation is different and needs are different. As long as it works for you, roll with it.

BTW, you should not feel down by coming in here. It's all different advice. Take what you like and leave the rest. At the end of the day, we are all beggars in this world trying to do the right thing. Follow the Word, your heart, and love with reckless abandon. Everthing else will fall into place.

fiori, no contact means they are not in contact, but since they work together, they are still in contact.


I would not live like this, wondering if my H saw his OW every day. That is to die a death of a thousand cuts, fiori. How can you even imagine you could recover living like this? Every day, you have to HOPE that he does not have a weak moment. You only have the word of a liar about contact, fiori.

How about this, Fiori?

My H and I are moving away in order to not even be in the SAME CITY..

He's NEVER worked with HER...

And I'm 99.9% sure there has been NO CONTACT for 4 years...

but I'm also sure, as Dr. Harley states, that my H will be ADDICTED to HER for the rest of his life...

The ADDICTION is not to HER per se but to the FEELINGS or WHATEVER that the AFFAIR created..

fiori, of course the decision is up to you and your H to continue in this situation. But what you cannot have with this set up is RECOVERY. If your goal is RECOVERY, you won't find it as long as they work together. What you will find is an on-off again affair for years. We have many ppl over the years who have learned this lesson the hard way. The surest way to set yourself up for a resumption is to have your H triggered every day when he goes to work, in a state of perpetual withdrawal.

He is going into the bar every day and staring at the BEER on the counter. He thinks about that beer all the time; it remains top of mind. Instead of focusing on recovery, that beer is always on his mind because he is TRIGGERED EVERY DAY. Eventually, a weak moment [and it will come!] will collide with opportunity and he will drink the beer.

Who will be there to stop him? NO ONE. The game you are playing is the EXACT equivalent of a chronic alcoholic going into the bar every day and "testing" his sobriety. In AA, we call that an "exercise in stupidity" because it proves how stupid we are to be playing such games with our sobriety. This is exactly how relapses happen.

Being triggered every day like this - both of you - makes recovery impossible.

So, as long as you are ok with an on-again, off-again affair and the daily fear of him going to work his lover, then you will be ok. For most people, that would not be a life they would choose.

Dr. Harley, a clinical psychologist, who has been doing this for 35 years, says this about continued contact with an affair partner:

entire article here

entire article here

Kind of OT from Fiori specifically:

Mel:

It seems hard for folks to buy the HIGHLY ADDICTIVE NATURE of the AFFAIR.

Bringing this out on a separate thread might be HELPFUL.

I've been trying to HAMMER AWAY at this a lot lately.

Agree, Mimi. One of the reasons that Dr Harley is so successful over other programs is that his background with alcoholics has trained him to understand and detect addictions. Most do not get that.

Turksmom, I shuddered when I read your words, because I have heard them so many times over the years in AA meetings. From people who had or were heading towards a relapse. It is a classic sign of someone who does not comprehend the power of his addiction.

They are the dangerous words of a WS who does not understand the power of his addiction and because of that, does not take precautions and remains vulnerable to a repeat.

This is why successfully recovered alcoholics do not hang out in bars. This is why you won't see recovered waywards here still in contact with their lovers. They ACCEPT they have no power over their addiction, and therefore, do not place themselves AT ITS MERCY. We SURRENDER by admitting the addiction is more powerful than us and removing ourselves. We set proper boundaries so that we are not unnecessarily faced with temptation. We don't tempt fate.

An addict that stays in proximity to his drug of choice has not surrendered. He is still under the illusion that he has POWER and continues to fight a battle he has already LOST. The only answer is to surrender by leaving the field of battle. An addict will ALWAYS LOSE so his choices are: surrender and leave with your life or continue to fight and LOSE your life.

I have been sober for 23 years TODAY. [LD: 4-27-85] I feel nothing but disgust and shame and horror about my drinking. But you know what? I know that if I hung out in bars and stared at a beer every day, those feelings of LONGING and ADDICTION can come right back and OVERWHELM my feelings of DISGUST and remorse. IN A HEARTBEAT. And I am TOO SCARED of a relapse to find out if that is true or not. I have seen other ppl play that game and I am not willing to take that chance. I am not willing to EVER take that risk. I have TOO MUCH TO LOSE.

If your H does not recognize this, he is VULNERABLE to a resumption.

All recovering alcoholics feel "regret, sorrow and disgust" about their drinking. But those feelings PALE in the face of the strong attraction we felt for alcohol. If we did not have those strong feelings, we would not have been alcoholics in the first place. If your H did not have those strong feelings, he would not have had an affair in the first place. THOSE FEELINGS CAN COME RIGHT BACK.

If we do not recognize this true fact and take necessary precautions, we will always be vulnerable to a repeat. The people who have relapses are the ones who foolishly believe they have power over their addiction and put themselves in precarious situations.

Please don't yell at me..(joking)
But, does all of this apply as hard core if it was an EA and not PA? Just a question, not an excuse.

And, fyi...I do not condone his working there and he is ok with finding a new job. I just wish it was as easy as it sounds. His level of employment is hard and at his age (42) there are many younger fish who are willing to work for less $$.

An affair is "hard core" whether it is physical or not. More often than not, the attraction has nothing to do with sex in the first place.


Understand. We know it is not easy. But neither is divorce. Neither is adultery. And just know that if your marriage does not recover, that is what you are facing. Recovery is impossible if there is still contact.

Adultery is as traumatic as the death of a child or a rape. Divorce is devastating to all concerned, and that is why unneccessary risks should not be taken here.

I am getting that loud and clear, even if it may appear that I am not.
No one wants to believe the person they love is capable of doing such hurtful things, even if the intent was not there to begin with. The H is a good guy who got caught up in a not good thing. I will probably never fully recover, but I can work towards that along with him. Your words have been helpful, even if it appears that I question everything you say.

Fiori,

Does she still work in the same building as your H?

I posted the following on another thread titled "The Affair Addiction", but was asked to post it here to you. (Anything in bold font is from the other thread)


I can certainly attest to this. My situation is a prime example of what not to do. I kept myself stuck in withdrawal for over 2 years because I continued to work with my FOM. In these 2 years I had no desire to get back into the A, I just couldn't break free of my addiction.

After I ended the A I learned about the addiction part of it and agreed it was a huge part of it. The scary part of the addiction is during the 2 years FOM and I worked together I didn't even realize how much I was still addicted to him. We did our best to remain professional, but the addiction was still there and kept me very stuck. I couldn't get over certain aspects of the A, but couldn't figure out why, (duh). I thought I had a good handle on it, but in all reality I didn't. It wasn't until after FOM left our employer and moved out of town that I finally could get through withdrawal. I should also add it was this bad for me and I only worked about 6 days a month. I can only imagine it would be much worse for someone who works with the AP on a full-time basis.

Now every time I read where AP's are still working together I just cringe. I wasted 2 years of my time in withdrawal and at the same time, for one of the years, trying to rebuild my marriage. Talk about a lot of mental anguish and conflict.

My advice to everyone from a BTDT POV, a WS needs to get as far away from the AP as they can.

This is an add on to what I posted on the other thread.

Even if your H doesn't work directly with her, but they are still working for the same company he will remain in some sort of withdrawal, IMO anyway.

Like I said above, I only worked, at the most, 6 days a month. The company FOM and I worked for had 2 offices across town from each other. Once the A ended FOM did his best to schedule himself at the opposite office than the one I was working at. We didn't physically work together often at all, but just the reminders all around me and knowing he wasn't all that far away were enough to keep me hooked.

Even though I was totally committed to my marriage and had no desire whatsoever to get back into the A, it didn't lessen the addiction because I did not remove myself from the situation.

LC

Thanks for that excellent post, lc!

Oh good grief.

Fiori,

My opinion would be yes, again from a BTDT POV. My FOM and I did not have sex, but did have some physical contact (dancing and kissing). It was the emotional connection that had me hooked, not the physical contact.

LC

Harsh reality, but loud and clear. I knew these things, but they just weren't making it through before. H and I talked about the addiction factor last night. He also sees it now. I saw it when I discovered the A and during WD (before MB), but somehow that became less clear over time. I still had the uneasy feeling that under the wrong circumstances, he wouldn't maintain NC, but chalked it up to my own sometimes nutty behavior with the triggers. I fogged about his addictive behavior during and immediately following the A. H is actively seeking new employment in a different field starting today. Still working for current with NC provisions in place. While not a perfect solution, I'm not worried about contact with OW right now.
Congratulations on your sobriety! My BIL is 12 years in May, so from an outsiders point at least, I can appreciate the hard work you've done and continue. Another thought with that analogy though... My BIL drank whiskey- that was the downfall, but when that wasn't available, he'd go with whatever was- right down to cough syrup and vanilla- so why does it help to change jobs?
It won't be the same OW, but there's always one lurking?
I still have to say trust your instincts on some of this. I think at least for a while the BS views the WS warily anyway, so when there are good times, appreciate them as such. This is one of the MB principles! There's a reason why we need to have fun together, so we can develop those feelings of love and affection again.

Thought this site was for support? Good grief, Big K! (lol)I expected more in depth insight after reading some of your other posts.

That comment was past tense. I had no knowledge of MB or the Harley's at the time. I received conflicting opinions from the people I spoke to and that was the decision I made based on my emotional state following Dday. When I said I didn't want to inflict pain, I was referring to my decision at that time. It was a position I never expected to be in and my decision making skills left a lot to be desired as I was in that whirlwind. I considered every possible scenario and way over analyzed what could happen. I was still in the blaming myself state. Now I would tell.
...As we know better, we do better.

A person who is serious about recovery REMOVES the booze from his house and stays away from obvious triggers. This is why recovering alcoholics stay out of bars. An addict who is serious about recovery removes the cough syrup and mouth wash from his house during his withdrawal.


But he isn't addicted to another OW, just the one at work. Other women at work are not a threat unless he is addicted to having AFFAIRS, which is usually not the case.

However, the chances of a 2nd affair, with OW or even a new OW, are much greater with a WS who has not recovered than with one who has.[a WS who works with his OW is not recovered] So continuing to work with one's affair partner increases the chances of a repeat because the thrill of his past affair is always top of mind. He never withdraws.

Turksmom, no one is saying that a WS can't resume an affair if he really wants to. Wild horses will not stop him if he is seeking it. But if he is NOT SEEKING it and wants to make sure he is not triggered, the answer is to remove the triggers. It's the only way to recover. It only makes sense that the alcoholic who is really serious would want to leave the bar, ie: the scene of the crime.

The notion that abstinence is essential to recovery from an addiction is Addiction 101, and is the foundation of any successful recovery program. That's pretty basic.

excerpt from Dr. Harley in Requirements for Recovery:


The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...in=147963&Number=2002600#Post2002600

Have you and your H watched the Infidelity Video? Dr. Harley also talks about extreme precautions.

Extreme precautions is something my H and I still talk about today. I still worry that his lack of having boundaries when chatting with coworkers will lead to him having another EA.

Per TST's post, if you counsel with the Harleys this is something they have the WS work on (an EPs list).

My H extreme precaution list includes no activites with any woman alone(such as lunch at work, etc), no talking of personal problems with any woman one on one at work or through email, phone, etc., etc.

I didn't realize there were several people here whose WS's were still working with their OP. Wanted to chime in with my H's lies of NC while working with his OW.

My H swore on a stack of bibles that he and OW were maintaining NC at work. The last two weeks at his job, he even made up a story that they would not be scheduled together...

Several weeks later after he left that place of employment and he started to de-fog, he admitted that they had maintained contact the entire time, talking, etc at work.

Please, please be well aware that there is a good chance your WS may be lying about NC if they are still working with their OP.

ps. I mean YOUR version of NC when I use "NC" above. I agree with everything Melody has posted...that NC isn't in place as long as APs are working together.

Mel and BP,
Thanks for the further explanation. H and I did not view the video yet. Just found out about it and had planned to do it tonight. I did read SAA last year and H is working on reading it. I should probably read again. I didn't give NC as much thought since I found MB months after dday and figured if they weren't talking, it was enough. OW's in a different state and works for a different company than H, but one that he deals with. Thought that was good enough, H implemented EPs you specifically mentioned at my request prior to MB. I was making it up as I went along, but it looks like I got some of it right. Now that H sees addiction too, I've changed my mind. Should say that H agrees wholeheartedly, not because he's been tempted to have contact, but because he sees his failure to see things clearly then and understands my discomfort more.

I have more to say about FAP's working together.

During the 2 years FOM and I worked together we tried to keep everything professional, but there were times he and I did talk about things we shouldn't have.

There were times we exchanged what a WS would consider innocent conversation, but in all really nothing is innocent after an A. I always thought about my DH when FOM and I talked but it didn't stop me from talking to him completely.

I remember one time FOM said to me, "Hey, take a look computer background. You will love it, it's a pic I took from my boat." I responded, "Wow, great pic, it's looks like a great day on the lake." Then to myself, "Shoot, I can't talk to him about this." Only it was too late, we already did talk about it. I justified it as innocent conversation and did not tell my H about it. "Why hurt him over something so minor" was what I thought. (eye roll)

We really did try, but in all reality it's very easy to talk about things a person shouldn't. We never talked about anything inappropriate, but just talking in general fed the addiction. Just knowing he was in the building, fed my addiction, knowing he was sitting in his office, fed my addiction, seeing his car in the parking lot, fed the addiction. I could go on all day with the trivial things that fed the addiction. I cannot stress enough how distance from him would have helped my marriage, I honestly didn't see it. Now it is clear as day.

And don't for a second believe a WS is telling you everything. I don't doubt they are telling some sort of the truth, just probably not the whole truth.

True NC cannot be established if AP's remain working together.

LC

Fiori,
We're bouncing opposite threads at the same time here. Figured you'd eventually get to this one. No messages yet. Maybe it takes a while. I'll check later. How was the weekend?
Turk

The weekend was good. Not great, but good. But, it was 'not great' simply because our family stuff did not click this weekend...it had nothing to do with EA. But, this is hard for me. I feel like I always have to be perfect and cannot be upset or angry as I fear it will lead him back to HER! Fortunately, I am able to talk to H very openly and I explained this to him. He's been good with me and me back to him. So, I learn that it's still a process. This is the part I struggle with alot. How do you go back to regular life and feel secure and safe? I fear that if I nag him or do something that he's not pleased with, he'll run back to OW. Does this ever occur to you? My issue was because he became emotionally entangled. And, as many have pointed out...he still is employed at the same place as OW. Well, I hope these crazy feelings go away once he changes jobs. He's promised to make it a top priority as he had admitted that he's let that part of the recovery slip. Neither of us likes change...but we both know it absolutely necessary in order to move completely forward. Right now, we take many forward steps, but a few side ways one's too and that's not progress.
What's up with you? How did the employment issue for H work out? And, about the private messege...I sent it yesterday. Did you go into 'my stuff" and see it there?

fiori, I am glad he has made it a top priority! No contact is not "part of" recovery, that is what needs to happen so recovery CAN START. There is absolutely nothing you can do that will compensate for his continued contact with the OW. You will - rightfully - wonder if today is the day when you send him off to work. He can't withdraw and you can't heal under those circumstances.

Also, the private messaging is turned off, y'all. You will have to exchange emails.

Mel,
Thanks about the private messege thing...
Also, I thought of you and bitter yesterday. H and I had a disagreement about $$. We are in the midst of a kitchen overhaul and it's costing more $$ than I care to think about. Anyway, he was in a mood, something that happens when he writes too many checks. So, he was a bit testy with me and I did not like the tone he took. I'm still at the stage of the game where I'm unsure as to how 'real' I can be. I don't want to be what can be perceived as b#*tchy. But, let's face it, I can't be June Cleaver the rest of my life. I have to be me, and he was not being very nice (in my opinion). So, I told him so. He listened and we were able to come to a resolution with apologies...blah, blah, blah..basic married life stuff. Anyway, afer we hung up the phone and before the apology part I panicked. I thought 'oh crap...she's there, I'm here and he's going to go talk to her out of spite" No, mind you, he's not a spiteful person at all but that had no bearing on my fear. So, I get what you're saying. He called 10 minutes later and I told him what I was feeling. I also cut/pasted the posting from you and the others and sent them to him via email. We talked for a long while. I realized then, that if she was not within walking distance I may have NOT felt scared about setting him straight on how I perceived our conversation to be going. We talked a long time and more once he returned home. I get it...I really do. And, I'm thinking he does too. His committment to US has to include getting out of dodge! Thanks...

This is VERY CRUCIAL for you to recognize, Fiori.

As BSes, we suffer from PTSD.

Infidelity is a MAJOR LIFE TRAUMA which takes TIME in HEALING.

Even to this day, over 4 years past D-Day, I STILL occasionally, although VERY SELDOM, feel this PANIC.

It helps to know what it is so that you can IDENTIFY it for yourself and learn how to cope with it.

Certainly, YOU WILL NEED TO FEEL SAFE and you are deserving of FEELING SAFE...as you are learning here...

I am so glad to hear it, fiori! You are seeing what we are trying to tell you. All it takes is ONE WEAK moment with your H and the affair is back on, because the opportunity is within arms reach.

You will find that you will both change quite a bit once he leaves. You will finally RELAX and live in some semblance of peace and you will see him become LESS FOGGY and detached.


Its ok to be YOU as long as YOU does not LOVEBUST. If the REAL YOU is lovebusting, then the REAL YOU has to change! But, in order for your marriage to be happy, you do have to COMPLAIN [not [censored], but complain] so that he will know what he is doing that bothers you.

You did the right thing in telling him about your unhappiness with his nasty mood. If he continues doing that, you will FALL OUT OF LOVE with him and he needs to know that. You did good!

Complaining in Marriage

Dear Dr. Harley,

My wife says that she wishes she could talk to me about the things she is dissatisfied with in our marriage, so they could be addressed. But when she does talk to me about these things, I get frustrated because it seems like she is never happy with me. The progress I make doesn't seem to matter.

I often see her explaining what she is upset about as complaining and only focusing on the negative. I don't often feel like she has recognized the good things about us. I want her to be more positive. I think she complains too much and does not see the good in some situations. I want her perspective to change, but she doesn't think she has to do something different to make this happen.

Thanks for your help.

R.D.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear R.D.

On average, women complain far more often than men, in both good and bad marriages. But there is a difference in how the complaints are received in those marriages. In good marriages, a complaint is regarded as a problem to be solved with wisdom and compassion. In bad marriages, a complaint is viewed as an unnecessary irritant -- something that should be either ignored or reacted to with anger and disrespect.

Remember what a complaint is -- it's a reminder that you are losing love units in your account in your wife's Love Bank. She is simply giving you accurate information about the present state of your relationship. While it may be discouraging to hear that you are losing ground, to be kept in the dark about such losses would be worse in the long run.

More than anything else, your wife wants to be in love with you, and you want her to be in love with you. So to achieve that crucial objective you must know when her love for you is being threatened by behavior that makes her unhappy. If your marriage has any hope of recovery, she must tell you how she feels about your behavior, and you must make corrections to eliminate her negative reactions.

Your wife's high incidence of negative reactions simply reflects the number of issues that have yet to be resolved in your marriage. If you want her to be more positive, you must address those issues, and eliminate them one at a time. You've had success in the past, and she has been very encouraged when that happens. But when you seem to be overwhelmed by it all, and tell her that she must learn to be more positive, she feels hopeless because there remain many issues that must be resolved if she is to be happy and in love with you.

The harder you try to become sensitive to your wife reactions, the more successful you will become in doing what it takes to make her happy. The more you try to avoid anger, replacing it with empathy (an effort to try to understand how your wife feels without being defensive), the more your wife will feel your care for her, and that in itself will make massive Love Bank deposits.

Remember, all of your efforts on your wife's behalf make a
difference in the way you think and behave. You are rerouting
neural pathways in your brain that will make it easier for you to care for her in the future. While it may seem like a lot of
effort now, in the future, it will be almost effortless to address your wife's complaints, and solve her problems with compassion.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Fiori,
Haven't read all of the new stuff. H and I just had the June Cleaver conversation this weekend. In the middle of our partially redone kitchen. Weird. So I'll write more later. I'm putting an email I use for work in here since it isn't confidential anyway. Let me know when you get it and I'll delete this later.
thanks-Turk

delete away...and check your email.

bump

bumped for Danilocomo11

Sorry...new here, but what does the bump stuff mean? Or, is this a private joke?

Hi, Fiori,

Nope, not a joke. Dani is posting on heartbreak's thread. I told her about this thread and the addiction one. She wanted to know where they were so I "bumped" them so she wouldn't have to go looking

I'm not sure if anyone is out there paying attention to my stuff anymore, but I've reached a bit of an impass and I'm powerless to know how to proceed.
H still works at the same company that his EA works at. Supposedly there is NO contact of any sort, but I do realize the mere fact that they share a zip code is contact in any other book. So, I am very much trying to educate him on what contact means. Most days he gets this and is very willing to listen and find a new job. He is very, very frustrated with his job aside from the bs that he/she brought here, so finding a new one is welcome to both of us. But, it's not happening fast enough for me. He hasn't dared to ask me to be patient, but I know him well enough to know that's what he is thinking. He's got 20 years at this company and finds it crippling to make the change. Lots of overload with responsibility blah, blah, blah...He says to me "what do you suggest I do?" I reply "find a new job and show me that you are committed to repairing the damage created by your EA". He then says "yes, I understand that, and I'm working on it but it's not that simple...you don't just snap your fingers and a new job at this level appears." He is not willing to change to a lower paying job because of the kids and schooling and many financial responsibilities. We both realize the necessity of preserving our marriage over any $$ amount, but the leap is frightening.
So, here's where I stand -- ANGRY!!! It has posessed me! I feel like a volcano ready to errupt!!! I feel I have no control over my anger right now and I'm powerless to figure out what to do with it. Is this normal? Are there stages you go through and this is simply the next stage? It shocks me how angry I am with him. Actually, it shocks him to. But, it creeps up on me and then I don't know how to turn it off once it takes over. Sometimes I feel posessed by the situation. Someone...tell me if this is normal.

Hi there. I'm still here...glad to see you are alive and kicking (maybe kicking too much ;))

I think it makes sense to go through an anger phase. I have found myself feeling EXTREME anger toward him over things that would normally have not riled me as much. I am working really hard to avoid venting it on him.

You know that when you tell him that he needs to show you that he is committed to repairing the damage created by his EA, you're kind of love busting him. I know HE chose to do the EA...but you need to be careful not to "throw it in his face." It really doesn't help.

I've found that I'm in a similar spot. I decided that I needed to look at all of the positive and try to encourage him with those things. Your H is doing LOTS to show you his commitment to the M. Try to focus on those things. I found that when I do that, not only does he feel more compelled to do MORE to meet my needs, but I FEEL better in general because I am looking at the good stuff.

I think your anger is completely normal, but I think if you aren't careful, it can backfire on you in your recovery. It doesn't seem fair, but venting anger and frustration on him will likely make him LESS interested in working on recovery. Kind of the "more flies with honey than vinegar" theory.

Call me sometime.

HTM

I totally agree with you. But, the problem is that I feel powerless to change my state of mind. That's the part that makes me nuts.

I don't know that you can just decide to change your mind and have it happen. My H would disagree with me. He feels that we make choices about what we feel.

But...I do think that we can change our behavior. I'm not really a behavioralist by philosophy, but I think that there is some truth in the idea that if we change our actions, our feelings will follow.

Maybe what you can do is FOCUS on the good stuff. Make a conscious decision to say ONLY positive, encouraging things to H. You may still FEEL the anger, but just don't mention it. Vent somewhere else. Here. To me. In your journal. If you have a new concern...like H says he wants to work late and you don't want him to, then address the problem in as factual a way and try to do the "sandwich" technique...tell him something great that he's doing, let him know that you are uncomfortable with him doing this, then give him words of encouragement:

Example:

Honey, I love the way that you have been spending so much quality time with me. I am just uncomfortable with you staying late at work right now. You are doing such an awesome job working with me to recover our marriage, I know we will get through it.

It may sound dorky, but I think it works. I have been trying to do this for the past few days and while H has had some things that I haven't LOVED, I have really tried to bolster him with encouragement and he seems so much more excited about doing things with/for me now.

You make valid points...I'll try.
Here's another question, though. Isn't he lovebusting by being at the job where she still is? Shouldn't this be a two way street? Shouldn't he be jumping through hoops to see to it that I'm confident?
I hate this feeling. I know there is some horomonal part in play here, but the feelings are real (40%). I believe it's H responsibility to nurture me.
Well, we'll chat again tomorrow. I've missed talking with you. Last night H and I were up til 3 discussing stuff. That's very counterproductive for me because I generally go to bed early. He's on the couch asleep while our son watches baseball and I'm up for a bubble bath and then bed! Whoo hoo...what an exciting household.
Til tomorrow

Hi fiori,
Couple of things:
Your D day was in Oct 2007. That is less than a year ago. My H had an EA and it was small and short-lived compared to what many here have had to endure. However, I was still on that roller coaster at the time frame you are currently in. I would have strong feelings of anger--they were probably primarily a feeling of panic that I read and interpreted as "anger". How are you expressing this anger to your H? I know it is hard. I remember your story and it is hard to deal with that sort of emotional betrayal along with the gas lighting that went on. That whole deal of having an OW in your home but being assured that she is not an OW is strange and the effects are long lasting. I know that the whole deal kept bouncing around in my head almost like I was in one of those pin ball machines: "He did not really care about her like he cares about me--bounce bounce "but he said things to her that he would normally only say to me"--bounce bounce--"but he never really wanted anything out of their relationship"--bounce bounce--"but he lied to me and she must have known he was keeping secrets from me"--bounce bounce.
Second thing:
He is still working at the same location where she works! Of course this is going to be hard for you! Triggers abound. Your roller coaster/pin ball machine ride continues. I know that the answer is for him to get out of that place of work. Yet, the two of you are not willing to pay the price that would be paid-lower wages, a financial burden for you and the children. These are choices and there are losses and benefits that you are weighing.
I don't have an answer to your situation. I know it is easy to sit here and tell you that he must leave that job. But that is a decision the two of you must make. How are the two of you doing with spending 15 hours together? Is he stepping up to the plate in a big way to make you feel secure and cherished? Are you able to accept his actions to meet your emotional needs? Is he making you feel secure around "no contact"? Has he found a person within the company to whom he is held accountable for "no contact"? Are you able to throw yourself in to making a healthy relationship with him? I still struggle and continue through stages of recovery. I wish you and yours comfort as you go through these struggles. Remember, take joy from your life and the events in your life that are joyful. I am sure there are many. Do not let the blot of these EA events color the joy that you share.

fiori,
Do you think it would help the two of you if you re-interpreted your feelings of anger as feelings of Panic? Yes, he should be stepping up and assuring you and making you feel safe. Maybe it would be easier for him to do that if he was stepping up and helping you through feelings of panic rather than feelings interpreted as anger.
Is he looking for another job?--actively? Also, are there other ways that he could be making you feel safe? Since affairs are addictive and he is still in the same work site, I think it would be important that he has someone at work that is able to hold him accountable for no contact. If I remember correctly, people at his work site are aware of the EA, so he should be able to recruit an accountablity partner at work. Would that help you? I know that this is not really a marriage builder idea, but I am just trying to be creative for your situation.

Lake,
Panic vs. Anger? I think you may be right. No matter what conflict comes into our lives my brain always reverts back to the EA and somehow ties them together. I am panic struck whenver he is 10 minutes late or a call comes in late at night...I do have the password on his phone and can check the messeges...I just don't do it as I think it may be counterproductive at this point.
As for looking for a job and his intensity -- that varies. Some days he's completely gung ho and others he's blah. There have been a couple of days that he's called me and asked that I do an intense search online as he struggles finding the privacy at work. So, I do and then send him the links. He is then in the drivers seat and has to take the intitiative and send the resume. Do I nag him gently about it? I know he's paralyzed by the prospect of change, so can I nudge him by talking about it? I was not sure if that would be considered love busting. He does get a little defensive when we chat about it. I know he's probably a bit resentful as I took away his new toy. We've discussed this aspect of recovery and he simply says that's not the case. I get a lot of 'trust me...this will never happen again. I cannot beleive I was stupid enough to get caught up this time and now i know how vulnerable someone can be...this will NEVER take hold of me again." That's good, but can it be trusted? Probably not while she's in the buiding.
As for a word 'buddy' that's not H's style. He's been there 20 years but has always kept the work friendships to a minimum. He's always been more about being home with me and the boys. But, the two bosses do have the complaints on record and if she tried again to speak with him he can always inform her boss to cut it off immediately. I do believe he means business, but I also think there may be feelings of 'what if?' floating around because she's still there.
So, here I sit. Last night we decided to 'table' any further discussion and just sit and watch the baseball game together. We are horrible at 'discussing' as it usually leads to an argument. So, baseball instead! And, yes, we are able to spend the time together, but we really always did. That's the weird part, there was no tragic event that seperated us or no extended period of time apart that made us vulnerable to this attack. Hopefully this is a better day.

Because H is the primary source of income, do I have the right to insist that he change jobs? Is this being too forceful?

fiori, are you seeing an IC? It sounds like you can really use one about now.

As for the job, I've been trying to help my H find a job for 4 years now. He has incredible credentials, and we can barely get through the computerized filters these days; I've sent out over 500 resumes. All I'm saying is, it's not that easy these days. Have you looked for a headhunter in your area? If he's at the upper level, I'd really recommend it, as those types of jobs usually get handled through professional companies. Does he make over $100K? If so, there's a great website called www.theladders.com that only posts jobs for the more experienced people.

Cat,
Yes, you're right. I could use a little IC right now. I went in the very beginning but the lady kept trying to do this program where I tapped my finger and the memories went away. Some new program that apparently is very helpful. At that time, as the situation was very new, I felt that lack of memory would be bad. I needed to feel the hurt and experience the pain in order to muster up the strength to fight for my marriage. I'm sure that sounds a little odd, but I did not want anything to potentially remove my spirit or fight. Now, it may be a good idea as the memories are clouding my judgement. But, I'm not one for self-help guru type stuff. And, I'm real bad at asking others for help -- that's why this is so good for me because I don't feel like I'm 'bothering' anyone!

As for the job, yes, he works at a level over $100K. There is a headhunter that he uses for employ others and the guy keeps asking him to golf or go to a game. I told H he should go and then inconspicuously ask him about himself. I believe the headhunter would love to shop my H around but is unable to actually approach this when they are doing other business. I'll suggest it again. Thanks for the support.

Oh, and by the way...
The reason for no IC now is that as of January H changed our insurance from Personal Choice to a competetor. They swore that everything was identical. He (H) is a procrasinator and waited til the last minute. Then, he was held under the gun and had to choose. Because the bi weekly premium was several $$ cheaper coming out of his pay, he foolishly made the choice. Soooo, no insurance for this until Jan. of next year when we switch back. I'd rather not pay the $100 per session as that is what it will cost on the East Coast.

I don't think it's wrong of you to insist on a new job, but the WAY you insist is important. Nagging is only going to make him unhappy. You need to talk with him and then just know that he remembers how important it is to you.

If you have a hard time talking with H without it becoming an argument, maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to find a MC. We are totally broke, but we found a guy willing to work on a sliding scale. He sometimes just helps to mediate the conversation.

Also, lots of people here have suggested that there be a set time each week to discuss the A and that the rest of the time, there is NO discussion about it. That way, you both get to talk about things that may be hard to handle, but you aren't mired in it all week.

I would suggest you look at some of the information on negotiating and suggestions for discussions. Some of the things that our MC has suggested is "mirroring" each others comments so that we are sure we understand, using LOTS of "I statements" so we don't blame, trying to "sandwich" criticisms with compliments...lots of little things but they seem to help. We also have a catch phrase that we use when one of us is overloaded and needs to take a break...our phrase is "runaway train." It means "I need to stop talking/listening for awhile. I'm not ignoring you and I will come back to this later." It helps a lot.

Call me. I've lost your number. We can chat.

HTM

You know what? I just had a really crappy realization!!!
That little sh#$ courted that dumpy poc the same way he did me. Am I stupid or is he simply a poorly named donkey?

What do you mean?

And don't you think that most men have one set of moves...they probably use the same ones over and over. I know my hubby does.

HTM

When I met him it was at the train station. We both lived in the same building for 3 years but never met til at the train. We worked in the city about 4 blocks from each other. He used to call mid day and we'd go for walks and have lunch in the park. It was totally innocent but it was special. We never so much as touched each other for several months as we were both dating others but were establishing a good friendship! Ha! Anyway, now it dawns on me that this is what he was doing with her...leaving mid day (together) and walking to pick up a slice of pizza etc...
I was pretty angry last night. He could sense it but I was totally NOT up for an argument. So, we chatted nicely. I told him I was disappointed that he tarnished what always seemed specail to me. I was hurt that he would trash our memories with her. I told him he was not unique at all and that he was just looking like that horrific parodied man on a sit-com-- the one who has a wife and flirts around town with another.
You have to understand...this is sooooo NOT him. He's always been the most gentlemanly and kind person I've ever known. His eyes spoke volumes to me and I always knew I was loved. I was so overconfident that I think that may have been my demise. I suppose that is normal. He very often brings up the fact that for 16 years he did nothing wrong...he made a mistake by allowing his friendship to cross the line but it was a mistake.
I think I want him to despise her.
I went to church yesterday morning and the sermon was about the commandment 'love thy neighbor as thyself'. I sat there and cried. Monsignor talked about having to forgive your neighbor even if you don't particularly like them. I am struggling with this one. I feel guilty because I cannot do this. Perhaps over time...but not now. I think of her and my blood runs cold. I know my anger is misdirected alot of the time...but I live with this man and I love him and I know if I put all the anger I have and direct it towards him I may not survive this. I don't want to be a bitter lonely old woman. So, it's easier to be slightly angry with him, more sad really, and very angry with her. I feel betrayed by the both. So, he really needs a new job because I cannot take this any more. The fact that he goes to the city every day and the opportunity sits at his feet is sickening to me. You're seeing a new side of me. I'm usually so upbeat and cheery, but not right now. Perhaps I'm in a new phase of this process...the angry phase. I really should find a counselor, but the thought of bringing someone up to speed and starting to dig up the emotions is exhausting just in thought. I will call later...as long as my son is occupied, as I'd prefer he not overhear anything. Thanks.

You can get through this. It will be ok.

Your H is making such effort. I think you are just processing your emotions and it really isn't something that HE can do better or worse. It's unfair, but it's YOUR job.

Our MC told me that while he wants me to move forward (past the A), that there is nobody who can tell me when to do that. He says that it is different for each person and that it is something that I have to get through. H can support me, but in the end, it is MY work. When I am finally able to let go of the A, we can work on our M.

I haven't found the same anger that you have, but I also spent the year in between d-days processing a lot of the anger. I am dealing more with trust and lies as opposed to the actions of the A. I already sort of KNEW about that stuff and had time to be angry and hurt.

Tyk described it really well in a post today. I actually emailed it to H because it did such a good job of describing the "job" of the WS and the challenge of the BS. I'll try to find it and copy it here.

Know that I am here for you and think about you often.

You WILL get through this.

HTM

I started a new thread so I can vent....
It's in GQ11 and is called dumpy redhead gardening. This was very helpful to me.

Here's what Tyk said (hope you don't mind Tyk...it was just a nice summary of things your WW did and things you fought to overcome within yourself)...

ILMH Quote:
Can you give my an example of some of the things your W was doing? I feel like i am definitely doing all those thing you mentioned, but i don't want to leave any stone unturned. What things worked for you two in helping you feel like she was doing all she could towards recovery? I want TTH to see that i am serious about our recovery. I want those deep wounds to heal.

Tyk's reponse:
My W did many things, but I think the most important thing she did was to actually change her attitude towards me. She recognized the real hurt she had inflicted, and did not try to justify, explain, or defend herself. She apologized several repeatedly, she made herself completely accountable for all time, gave me access to her phone, switched jobs to get away from OM, etc. This is all the general stuff that is recommended here to facilitate recovery.

She also took some lumps from me. There were a handful of instances where I did not react very well, where I engaged in some love busting and said some not very nice things. She did not respond in kind and escalate the situation, instead taking the high road and tried to empathize with me and what I was feeling.

As far as some of the actual concrete things she did: shortly after D-Day she booked us a long weekend away together. We started giving each other massages. We had SF, ALOT. She started playing golf with me and has continued to do so. Basically, BOTH of our focus is now about each other, we both changed and made the M our #1 priority. Pre-A, this was not the case for either of us.

I sympathize alot with TTH, his situation and his timeline are pretty similar to my own. Almost everything he is going through and feeling I felt at one point, and it was not so very long ago at all, so I hope that I can reach a hand out to both of you and help you through these times like so many did for me. If you read my recovery thread, you will see that what I was posting is very similar to what TTH is posting. It may help you get a feel for the timelines involved in this, and it may give you some ideas. I struggled greatly with the "why" question, for months. I don't struggle with it much anymore, if at all. I don't feel that I found the answer, I just don't care much about the question anymore. I got tired of thinking about it. I had to begin to let go of the pain and the hurt of the past in order to begin to truly enjoy the present.

Time and consistency is what he needs from you in order to begin to trust that what he is seeing in you NOW is real. Its very hard to juxtapose the WW with a truly repentent FWW. We see what we've wanted to see for so long in the FWW. We see what we've worked for for so long, and through so much pain and turmoil, but it is very very hard to trust it. Because we have been decieved. Our life has been a lie for a very long time. We've lived in a world where we can't trust our W, and we've lost some faith in ourselves as well. We see our FWW, and we know that that is what we WANT, but we also know that a very short time ago that person was lying thier [censored] off to us. That creates a reality conflict, because we did NOT trust ourselves as the A was going on, much to our detriment, so we are afraid to trust that the FWW is REAL, because we have seen the danger in believing what we WANT to believe. It takes some time to start to piece reality back together. Part of that process is trying to figure out how this could happen. He needs to be able to get through his pain and anger without driving you away. You have to be able to witness it, to take some of it. The worst thing for me is that I was afraid of my emotions. And I was afraid to express them to my W. I was afraid that they would drive her away. This would cause me to bottle them up until they erupted, sometimes in a less than ideal way. If/when this happens, you need to be ready to deal with it.

Hope this helps.
HTM

fiori,

I didn't want to T/J HTM's thread so found your post to bump it and get clarity about your post?

Are you saying that your H still works with OW and you are not checking his phone regularly????

I need to read your whole post so I can gain some perspective of where you are at now, but that really stung with me because I come from the perspective that it is part of the EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS and FULL DISCLOSURE boundaries that I have set up with H. He even stated that in his NC text to OW this last time that he would be having me check his phone regularly to ensure that he kept his word (his choice to state that).

I could be way off base, but it feels like you are walking behind a horse and "hoping" that he won't kick you.

Correct me if I'm wrong girl!!

Only,
The only part you have wrong is the 'with'. H still works at the same company. They do not work together, he had her transferred back in October to another area. Because of her transfer they do not overlap in any area of business so there is no longer any reason to communicate. This was a tough point for both of them to realize, as they kept communication up for several months after the supposed split.
So, as it stands now, he 'reports' to me regularly as to whether or not there was any form of contact at all. So far, as of February there has been none (to my knowledge). I went to his work a few weeks ago and he made it a point to show me which part of the building she was in so that I'd feel easier about the distance and the realization that there is no reason for her to come anywhere near his side of the building. Ok...do I look dumb? There was no real reason for 8 months, but it happened anyway. So, now he searches for a new job. He has sent out several resume's and is anxious to put this chapter of our lives behind us. I'm not sure that ever really occurs, but we can try. Theirs was not a PA, but the pain is real and horrific non the less. I have explained to him that every day when he walks out our front door, he picks a scab. He is not giving us the opportunity to reach a full sense of recovery until she is no longer sharing the same zip code. My real fear is that he will switch jobs and she will follow. Trust me, she is that bold. Then, what do we do? Anyway, I'm learning to take one day at a time so I'll worry about that only when/if I have to. As for the phone checking, I do it sporatically. He's never had a problem with me checking. But, honestly, it makes me physically sick to do so. AS soon as I touch the phone I can feel things moving internally that should be at rest. My pulse soars and I get very agitated. He works in the financial industry and his work phone plan does not include texting. So, all I can really look for is an incomming or outgoing # and emails. I have seen many emails from her before and have seen the # on caller id...but now for months. I feel the craziness coming my way, but sometimes I feel guilty when I look. I don't want to have to....but I realize I do. It makes me sick that my marriage has come to a point where I have to check up on my H to see if he's totally committed to me.
All I have right now is his word and his actions. I can see that he treats me much differently than he did when she was the influence that he was under. He prides himself on saying "I never have ever said a bad thing about you to OW". Big flipping whoop! I told him that every time he spoke to her and they both knew it was wrong, he was saying all kinds of bad things about me without saying anything at all. I don't always think he 'gets it' but then other times I do. This is a very confusing part of life to be in. I don't want you or anyone else to think I'm making excuses...because I am not. I have been stripped to the core and I fully expect/need H to bring me back. But, the parts of me that I have to fix, I will.
So, what do you think?

Aha...now I have a clearer picture.

I totally understand where you are coming from. My heart starts beating faster and I even get a little nervous like he is going to "catch" me (even though this is an agreed upon effort) and even feel guilty scooping it up and looking at it when he is in the room. It's a yucky place to be!

I'm really thinking of taking LA's suggestion of having a specific time that I check phone and email and having my DH with me so that we can do it together and even discuss the triggers and use it as a healing experience instead. It seems like it would beat the feelings I described above. I'll let you know how that goes, you may even consider it yourself. And another suggestion that she made was that I continue to do it even when I am trusting him and here's why....I had stopped doing it for SEVERAL months and the same OW from last year came back into the picture during the month of April and first part of May. :eek:

His were never PA's either, but that doesn't matter...still hurts like heck!!! And she's a frumpy older woman that works at the grocery store that he and his fellow co-workers frequent in the mornings on their way out to the field. He is currently off on a back injury, but when he returns I won't be ok with him being in that store.

Sigh!!! It takes time fiori....we can get through this.

Just to play devil's advocate....if you have a designated time to check the phone, doesn't it seem like he'd then have any and all info cleared prior to that time? I know in the past if ow contacted H he would erase so I would not get upset. But, because his mind wanders quite easily and he easily gets off track with other stuff, occassionally he would forget. These are the times when i'm able to see that she/he are still in contact.
Right now I'm at the struggling with forgiveness phase of my life. I started going to church often during the week back in October and it has brought me great peace. But, being the well trained Catholic that I am, if I don't go a few times during the week I feel like I'll get the punishment of her calling again. This guilt thing really takes over your mind. Anyway, I have to learn to forgive. It's easier to forgive him because I love him and need to in order to live with him forever. But, her? That's not happening. I pray for peace every day. I need peace of mind...to be freed from her grasp. Beleive it or not, she still controls me every day and that makes me resentful. She probably does not even know she controls me, but she does. So, along with peace, I pray for her to meet a nice man from Alaska and move very, very far away! To any of you married ladies in Alaska...I'll let you know in plenty of time so you can stow away your husbands!

Fiori,

Your devil's advocate question is the BIGGEST problem for me. I know that my H is more than savvy enough to cover his tracks. Heck, he did it for an entire YEAR! So I feel like barring my installing software to track his stuff, he will hide what he wants to.

Is there any way to track text messages yet? My H deletes them as he gets/writes them so I would never know. And if we set a time, my worry is that he would delete the unfavorable ones and leave the rest so that it looked good.

YUCK! I think our best line of defense is to watch the wayward behavior of our Hs...if they start to look/feel weird, THEN we worry that something is up. Otherwise, we live our entire life wondering whether or not we are being lied to again.

HTM

Yeah...what both of you said hits home for me. And that's probably why I'm not there yet on the "set time" because we don't have enough time under our belt for me to trust that he wouldn't hide. And my H deletes and hides as well and sometimes slips up and that's when I end up finding out.

I have online access to his cell phone bill and I can see "unbilled" items. It doesn't show me the words that are used in the texts, but it shows me the phone number and the time. We have T-Mobile. It will show that until the billing period ends and then they summarize into one lump sum and I cannot see who the phone numbers are, just a total count of incoming and outgoing.

This last "acting out" episode, I listened to a VM because he left his phone in the kitchen over night and it was there when I was leaving for work. He was still sleeping. I had periodically listened to VM's and looked for phone numbers anyway but I had really slacked off and I had a gut feeling that I needed to listen to it. Hate that! Sure enough, there was a message with her half retarded sounding (I know that's awful to say) voice on there. And of course because we've been at this for awhile, he knew the drill, this time he told me everything, sent the NC text, copied me on it, left it on his phone so that I could "verify".

I'm all for checking, that's my bottom line. And based on my own bad experience, I think that checking needs to remain in effect indefinitely.

Precisely! All I have to go on now is his word (???) and the way he treats me. As of late, he's been treating me like the old days, but I'm so afraid to trust myself any more. I feel so stupid for being duped as long as I was. Well, I suppose if I really disect things, I wasn't duped at all....I knew what was going on very early on. I suppose he was the one being duped, but it was by himself. He had himself convinced that he could handle things and then it all got out of control.
So, let's add a new fuel to the fire...he's going out of town on business Monday-Thursday of next week. This is a trip he's gone on for several years and I know it's just the managers (four guys), but I'm still very worried. My concern at this point is her. I am afraid she will know he's out of town and realize that his 'babysitter' is not there and attempt to make a call. or two or three. He's shown me in the past that his resolve is absolutely non existent, so I'm a bit worried. I made a list today of my concerns and he and I will chat about them later tonight. I need him to really hear me this time and respect my fears. I know he's trying hard to be tolerant but I simply don't feel that he's as remorseful as I think he should be. I've heard other waywards say that they would do ANYTHING their spouse asked of them to make them feel safe. I do not feel that is the case. I think I'll go add that to my list. Also, the fact that I'm not sure that I think he sees losing me as a reason for honesty. This is soooo weird for me because before all of this happened I KNEW he was the most decent and special man I'd ever met. I knew I could always count on him and that he'd never intentionally let me down. I wish I knew that again.

I completely understand all that you said, could even see myself saying the same things.

We looked at the five love languages website together and on there is a quick survey for what kind of love language you like, but at the bottom, it had the language of apology. I learned that I am the kind of person that needs a "repentant" type of apology. I need to not just hear the words, but to hear "this will never happen again".

My H says that just because I can't see his remorse does not mean that it's not there. He does better "writing" to me where he can express some deep things that he may never put into verbal words. In those words I hear the repentant one and it soothes me.

Do you have access to his cell phone records online? Can you look to see his current calls and text message phone numbers? This would "confirm" if she does call or text him. Would that help?

I could always simply look for the calls. But, as for texting, this is not an issue because his cell phone is issued by work and texting is banned. So, I'm grateful for that, as I see that texting is a biiiigggg problem with alot of folks on here.

Has your H been involved in more than two EA's? This is our first and seemingly our last. It's tiresome having to go through this after 17 years of marriage. I had so much faith in what the two of us had. I'd be lying if I told you I was 100% happy with H. He's not romantic and he's devoured by his job & responsibility. I wish I felt that he 'cherished' me. He hates when I use that word. Now, the only way to explain it to him is to say "I wish I meant so much to him that he was willing to risk his marriage to protect and be with me." IT's such a slap in the face that he was willingly engaging in actions that were toxic and harmful to our family. I don't think I'll ever be able to reconcile that in my mind. I have some wishes where he's concerned, but I'd never, ever consider stepping over the line. I remember many years ago when my son's b-ball coach used to flirt shamelessly with me. Then, I started to notice him driving up our street. I freaked me out. So, rather than engage him, I kept a lower profile and told H. He was a real turd about it. He actually told me that I was probably imagining it because married men did not flirt with married women... He actually even chuckled a little at my being so gullable. Hmmmm...where did that get him? This is why so much of what he did the last year was totally out of character. I don't even know who I've been living with any more. But, I do see the old H emerging. They say it's impossible while they still work in the same company, but right now there is nothing I can do. I have been out of the work force so long now so I know any job I could get would not support us if he took a pay cut. We'll see. Time can be both a friend and an enemy. Thanks for talking with me...it's very helpful

Short answer - yes.

Mine is a long story...gets me back to MB about once a year. Many things have changed in the last month though so I see alot of light at the end of the tunnel.



Very much so!!

Keep your healthy guard up. It's good that he is looking for another job.

You are welcome!

Last night I cried for the first time in many months. I sort of felt this one brewing...but it finally arrived. First, I know a new trigger -- The Notebook. I was watching the movie and it threw me over the edge. And, earlier in the day we had a party for my son. It was a mix of my family, H's family and a few 16yr. old boys in the mix. It was a very fun day. But, I looked around and thought 'wow, if H had left to be with OW, this day would not be possible.' You know, it bothers me that H doesn't give these things any thought. How can you just simply move on and mend so quickly? He seems oblivious, sometimes, to the ripple effect of what he did. And, also my mother started talking to me about how I'm not the same. My spirit is gone and my bubbly personality seems to have been put on hold. Hmmm...doesn't that happen when the rug gets pulled out from under you? Anyway, it was a tough night and I look like a freight train ran into my face now. Crying really takes a toll! So, we start a new day. And, H leaves tomorrow for NC to a conference for work. He'll be back Wednesday but I'm not impressed. Not because I think he'll cheat, but because I realize the dumpy red-head will know he's alone and may attempt contact. I wonder if I'm making more of this than is real and she's actually moved on too? Does that happen with an EA? It's just that she was sooooo 'in your face' about wanting him and she made no efforts to remove herself from the party even after she was told to do so many times. So, why now? Why is she listening now? It seems out of character given her bold attitude for so long. WEll, that's one thing I truely cannot control so I'm going to have to let it go. Til tomorrow..

I'm here for you. I'll talk you through the next few days. You'll make it.

I'm sure OW has dropped it. She sees how committed your H is to you and how committed you are to H. She'd be crazy to keep trying.

Hang in there.

HTM

PS. Lots of triggers for me this weekend on my trip with our AFS student to Las Vegas. Whew...didn't know if I would survive and definitely know that H will not be allowed to go there any time soon!

I went to bed last night after H packed his bag for his trip. I wrote a note and tucked it in his shorts. I never woke again until 6am and he was still here! Not good, his flight was at 8 and he needed to be at the airport by 7. So, I practically shoved him out of bed and he said 'no problem...i've decided not to go. I left a messege that I was sick. I knew it was a problem for you and I really wasn't into it." Well, ok, then! So, he worked from home today and he'll go back to regular work tomorrow. What does this mean? Too scared to be hopeful, but secretly I am.

I'm sorry your weekend was tough. At least you won't have to go back there any time soon! Did your 'daughter' go back yet?

WOW! Healthy skepticism......but wow!

AWESOME! Your H is definitely making a lot of points with me. I hope you are SHOWERING him with praise for his decision! He needs to know that it was great for him to make the decision not to go and that it protects your marriage. He's starting to make decisions with YOU in mind. That's wonderful.

My "daughter" goes home on the 30th. She had a great time in Vegas. It was a completely new experience for me because it was all about sightseeing...no gambling, no drinking...LOTS of walking. We saw Folies Bergere (famous showgirl show) and walked through all the hotels except the one H met OW at (just couldn't do it). We even went to Freemont Street where there is an archway tv that you walk under the length of a city block.

HTM

Really? Do I praise him like a child who learned to use the potty? It seems weird. His travel is not really a trigger for me, it's the late night conversations on the phone with OW. I knew if he was away the filter would be gone and she may take it upon herself to 'check in'. H says she has moved on. He says he has no concrete evidence to this except that she keeps her distance and is respecting his wishes to not speak to him. I dont' know...I still really want him at another job regardless of whether or not she's all of a sudden an upstanging gal! Not likely! But, I have to be careful not to let this take over. Last night I told him that I would take it one week at a time. I will not ask him daily (like I do) if there was any contact or communication, visual or verbal or email, today. I will not ask him tomorrow or the next day. I will rely on him to tell me! I told him that I would take no news as good news and he was grateful. I have to start to let go of my paranoia. But, I know I cannot fully engage in recover until he's out of there totally.
You know, I still wonder sometimes if she has found me and reads this. I have no reason to think that, but I so don't trust her.

LasVegas sounds decadent. I really have no desire to be there. I'll pray for a quick decision with your housing. Remember, you little men are still young enough that this can be an adventure. I know it's stressful on you and H but try to find the pot of gold, even though it seems impossible.

Hang in there...this is a long process.

Just had to pop in and tell you that last night when I got home, I went in our master bathroom and there in the garbage can were my H's trusty favorite sweats. I was shocked!!

I have been asking him to throw those out for years, even throwing them out myself when he's not looking and he retrieves them.

The other day I said...you know, those sweats are somewhat of a trigger for me. You had them before we met and they are your favorites so I know that you have worn them around the OW's that you also brought into this M (some of the internet OW's he met in person for sex before we were M). It would be nice if you would choose to throw them out once and for all.

So when I saw them last night, I thought of you and thought of this thread. I had the same reaction. WOW! Healthy skepticsm, but wow!

LOL!

That's awesome and I'm happy for you.
Do you guys go to counseling? It seems he's habitual in his outside interests and I wonder if he's ever considered finding out why. Just a thought.

We've done a variety of counseling over the years, some through church. I believe it has been good for us and has kept us working at it together.

He has much more ownership of his habits and addictions now and I think he sees them for what they are. He has had some really big breakthroughs regarding choices made based on perceptions and how he was raised.

We're still a work in progress though, that's for sure.

I'm not sure anyone ever reads this thread any more...but I need an area to vent some fears and feelings I have. Last night did not go well at all with H and I. We got into a true knock down blow out. He slammed the door on our armoir and crashed the mirror to pieces. Ok, so is anyone else superstitious? Now I believe I'm doomed to 7 years of bad luck. This kind of stuff is soooo stupid, but it plagues me. Anyway, back to the argument. The other night he casually mentioned that he was being moved to another building. I knew this was on the horizon but it really had no effect on me as OW still is at the same company so I simply assumed ALL would move. Hmmm...now he's saying that only his dept. is moving and hers is staying behind. This should be good new righ? So then why wouldn't he have told me? If you betrayed your wife and could potentially put her mind at ease with some good old space and seperation, wouldn't you automatically offer that info up? Wouldn't that have been something he ran home with? Maybe it's just me...maybe I'm expecting him to act as I believe I would, but really...this is big! This could mean an easier day for me all around if she's across the street and not flounsing her dumpy self past his window. No, that actually does not happen, but in my vivid imagination it does. I just don't understand. He seems angry that I have needs. He seems to think we can do this recovery aspect of things on his timeline. Frankly, I think I hold the cards now and I should be determining how it's going to go. There seems to be no fear of losing me in his heart at all. It's almost as if I'm disposable. I knew years ago that he did not fill my needs for romance and compassion, but other positive traits made up for that. I'm not foolish enough to think any marriage is 100% but I was pretty happy with the 85-90% that I had. I figured we had it pretty good. Was I so wrong? Do EA's happen because we, the betrayed spouse, have done something terribly wrong? Or is it because the Wayward is simply a coward and not strong enough to fight for what is right. That's it, really...I don't see any fight in him. Imagine if the shoes were reversed. I don't really think he would have fought for me. I think he would have rolled over and simply forgotten about it. So, today we venture out on a 5 hour road trip. I can't wait to be trapped in a car with the crabby patty and my kids. The kids are soooo excited about us going away for a few days. This was supposed to be a recharging exercise. A way for us to bond as a family. And, now H believes I've sabotaged it by having the nerve to ask him why he did not feel it was necessary to inform me as to his location changes. Little do I know, she's moving too and he's just leaving that part out. He does tend to back-door stuff so he can claim "I never actually said that". This is a man that I'm trying to rebond with. A man that I thought i'd live the rest of my life with through thick and thin. This is the same man who has broken me to pieces and is too stupid to put me back together. I'm not giving up...I'm just tired. I'm so tired of feeling like I'm holding it all together by myself. It must be nice to be able to have a little play time while married, decide your done and then re-establish your vows. Wow, what a selfish was to be. The entire vengence A is such a real idea in my head. I would never do it, but I have clarity as to why many people do. I firmly believe that two wrongs don't make it right, but my patience is really being tested.
So, off we go to Virginia. I'm going to have to try my hardest to keep my mouth shut and not dare to introduce any thoughts that may be remotely inflamatory.
Oh, and don't worry...he does not touch me...he slammed the armoir door. I am in no danger and have never ever thought I would be.

Hi Fiori,
So you did know that he was moving to another building as he had told you this some time ago right?

Let me try to put a different spin on this:

You are upset because he did not clarify to you that OW was not also moving. But he did tell you that he was moving. Yesterday, somehow it came out more specifically that OW and her building was staying put and not moving with his group.

Maybe he did not mention that OW was not moving because he was trying to assure you that he gives OW not a moment's thought. For him to bring up OW would be to acknowledge to you that he had thought about her. Maybe it is just his way of keeping his vow that he would not think about her. I know my H does not give the OW a moments thought. She is blocked from his mind. He has no feelings about her--positive or negative--. She does not exist for him.

I am not saying that your H had a specific plan or intent about what he told you and how he told it to you. I just think that he may be acting out of intuition and out of his own survival needs. His need may be to just block the sorry (self-censored) you know what from his mind.

I hope that you can try to let him know that you are putting all of this aside so that you can have a fun family trip together. Don't let that you know what spoil your vacation with your H and Family. Thinking of you and hope the two of you have some re-building good times together!

Lake,
Thanks...maybe that's the angle I should be looking at here. I'm going to pull myself up and move on. We WILL enjoy the weekend and I will not let the OW creep into my conscious mind. H reminded me last night that he was HERE. He was with me and he chooses to be with me. I suppose I've become a bit jaded. This should be a good thing but my mind automatically creeps back to the fact that he actually thought he had a choice! I've never imagined him NOT being my husband. Sadly, he may not be able to say the same thing. Oh well, today is another day!

((fiori))

I know what it's like to have those triggers and feel like the world is closing in around you.

Breathe!!!

Give yourself permission to push all thoughts of the EA out of your mind this trip and even work HARD on bringing up happy and loving thoughts about your H.

It may only make the trip go well and you will find those nasty critters creeping back in when you get home, but at least you will experience that you can do it!!!

Try it, it works! I've had 2 weekend getaways recently where I was able to push away ALL triggers and be in my own "fantasy" with my DH.

Take care.

Today I had to go to the train station to pick up my mac card that my H had in his wallet. Being curious, I decided to 'snoop' around a bit. Nothing was there that would arouse any suspicion in a normal marriage, but I did find a Christmas ornament that looked like a tool box with the year 2007 written on it in black marker. Generally my sisters in law give ornaments on every Christmas package and this very well could have been from one of them, but now I'm freaked. What if it was from OW? And, if it was, why keep it? CRAP!!!
So, do I confess that I took a little look/see and chance another argument? I'm not real good at keeping things in when they are on my mind. Probably, it's not from her, but what if it is?
And, then I delved a bit further and took out the top of the trunk where the spare tire is stored. In there I found the new $90 running shoes he purchased down town. They are the wrong size and he was supposed to return them because he preferred another color. Well, there they sit, unused and seemingly hidden in the wheel well. Why? This is odd behaviour to me. It may be that the 30 day return policy is over and he was embarrassed as he'd know I'd yell at him for poor time management, but who knows? What's the big deal? What's the secret? Are these simply guy activities and I've got him under a microscope? Am I nuts? Why don't I feel sane at all? Now I'm going to lose it and go making accusations and it's not going to be very productive. Please pray this man gets another job soon!!! I cannot take much more of this.

My DH has odd behaviors like that as well related to my perception of "time management". You know yourself best and you could be right about him wanting to hide it from you to not have an argument.

Be calm and talk to him about both. I learned something this weekend. My DH actually has triggers too. Nothing to do with OW. Triggers in our R that make him upset and hurt because maybe we've worked really hard for a few days and then I start 2nd guessing and spiraling downward and he feels like the last few days were a waste.

Hopefully that makes sense and the reason I mention it is because maybe hiding the shoes was to not upset you and you can give him an opportunity to discuss the things he does too in a safe environment.

Alot of writing just to say....yes, talk to him. Always be honest and be calm so that you can have a satisfactory conversation, even if he gets defensive at first. I have found that my DH now makes comments about how much "easier" it was to talk to me when I stay calm and how much he appreciates that.

Understood,
This is one of the things I apparently lack...the ability to talk to me. Supposedly I answer questions for him and never give him the ability to formulate his own answers. My H is very slow to react to most situations. This, I find very annoying. So, I've gotten into the habit of answering for him. It's something I work on regularly. I will talk to him. I'm not sure I'll bring up the sneakers as this makes me look like a total wench...removing the lid of the trunk to reveal the spare tire....

I hear ya.

Oh my goodness....I can totally relate to that. My DH told me once "I'm not stupid. Just because I'm not as fast as you, I get it I just process it differently than you."

Well, we had a small chat. I did ask him about the ornament in his car and he says he how no idea where it came from. I know that's ridiculous because if another man had given me any type of gift, you can be sure I'd know it. He says people give out all kinds of stuff at work and if it was from her he has no idea. He was able to admit that it MAY be from her but could not be positive. Hmmm....do you smell a fish?
I realize Christmas was many months ago and he did not really establish NC(my version) until February, but why keep it? Memories?? Man, this is killing me. I feel like I'm on the edge of a cliff again and he & she are going to push me over. I wish I had a clear head. We had a super weekend away. There is so much non-stress when I am able to remove him from the work environment. He's always been my best friend and now it's just such a betrayal to think another woman would know enough about him to give an ornament portraying a special hobby of his. Hatred is filling my heart right now but I cannot let it because I have to spend many more hours home alone with my kids and I cannot let them know I'm potentially broken again. Why is it soooooo hard to simply tell the truth? It's ridiculous to think he says it MAY be from her...he's really not sure....he can't possibly remember all the silly stuff that passes his desk at the Holidays....blah, blah, blah...
So, here I sit, on the verge of tears and wondering how to make this all work. Again, I feel like the crazy one. He's just going to work and trying to make a living for US and I'm all crazy at home looking through his stuff. What can I say?

Fiori,

I'm sure you've read the advice I've been getting...but I think it may be good for you too. You need to tell H that you were snooping. You need to ask him about the ornament and the shoes. The trick is that you need to make sure that he knows your motivation is to understand...that you are not accusing him of something.

I talked to H about the phone call. He didn't even ask me why I was looking at his phone. But I asked directly and without emotion. I said, "So why did you have a 23 minute conversation with BBOW after work hours?" He answered. I said, "I am uncomfortable with you talking with her outside of work and I feel like it is not protecting our M." I left it at that. He didn't say anything else, but I also didn't TELL him to do something different.

With you, maybe say, "I was in your office and I saw an ornament from 2007. Who gave it to you?" If he comes back angry...like you're accusing him...say, "Wait. I was just asking who it was from. I am not angry with you or accusing you of anything. It was just a question to put my mind at ease."

With the shoes, "I was looking in your car and I found the shoes that you said you had returned in the city one night. Why do you still have them?" Don't explain WHY you were looking in his car. Focus on the shoes. He'll explain. You say, "That makes sense." Or you say, "Why did you hide the shoes and tell me that you returned them if you didn't?" Calm, cool, non-emotional.

Can you do it?

fiori,

What do you know about his childhood? How did his parents discipline him? I ask because I can totally relate to what you are saying and I knew that my DH parents were strict and believed in spankings, but I recently really understood his need for "staying out of trouble" and how that has represented itself in our M.

My DH suggested a time that we get together to discuss things like this so that we can both be ok. LA had suggested a communication exercise to me that mirrors his suggestion only he was actually giving me a time that I could discuss my triggers. And now that we know he has them too, I'm looking forward to what we both can learn.

Don't let it ruin all the progress you've made. That is easier said than done, I have those days where I feel like I've been sucked into a cesspool of gunk!

And I seem to remember Dr. Harley stating that some people have good memories and some don't. I think as BS we have EXCEPTIONAL memory, partly linked to the Post Traumatic Stress that this has created in us. (i.e. hypersensitive)

Don't be mad that he's not "remembering". It may be his way of downplaying it so that he protects you because if he doesn't really know and care who gave it to him, then you won't have to feel pain. Not sure, just a suggestion that I think my DH does.

I completely believe that he doesn't remember. Guys don't seem to remember details very well. It would've been nice if he had said, since it might be from her and he could see you were upset, that he would toss it just in case. Oh well.

Call me if you need to talk. I have yucky days too and you have been there to talk me through it. You'll make it.

HTM

Thanks..
WE spoke again later in the day. I'm really not concerned about the sneaks, I know it's simply poor time management and embarrassment about it. He did ask me, though, where else I looked in the car. I told him (jokingly) that I had hired sniff dogs and borrowed a creeper to look under the car. Really, I would not do that...I think. Anyway, he apologized and swears it's really not a big deal to him and that if it was from OW he'll get rid of it. I'm not sure why he'd want to keep it. Both of us have memories in a box from before we met. But, those memories are not a threat to our family's well being. It seems very selfish to me that not only did he conduct himself as a single man for 8 months, now he's saving momentums. Really stupid from where I sit. So, I asked him calmly to take stock of everything and anything that may have exchanged hands over the months and kindly remove it so I never have to come across it again. The last time I found one of his 'memories' was totally by accident. He had stored a card in our box of safe keeping stuff and I needed a copy of my son's birth cert. for soccer. Boy was I shocked to find that! Anyway, he swore then that there was nothing else. Sadly, I did find a collection of cards but that was on D-day so it's a blur how that all occurred. Anyway, he has called to let me know that he loves me...I wish I thought/felt that all the time. When you are married to someone for almost 18 years you have a bond that you think is unbreakable. I sit very often and wonder 'what did she have that I did not?' I realize my memory is a steel trap. I forget NOTHING and he forgets EVERYTHING!! I'm surprised he remembers how to get home at night! My biggest struggle, other than everything, is trying to not make him be me. I want him to act and react like I know or think I would.

((fiori))

The dreaded "what did she have that I didn't"....yuck! I do that do myself too. It's so counter productive, I do it anyway, but it stinks!

Listen to what Dr. Harley says. It's an addiction for them. We wouldn't ask ourselves that about a cigarette. LOL!

Anyway, just letting you know that I feel ya!!

It's all good....

Thanks...
This club I find myself in really stinks! But, for people like you, I am appreciative from the bottom of my heart. I did a posting called "Garbage Truck" I need to read it again and memorize it.

My whacked out MC has some bits of wisdom...he told me that whenever we compare ourselves to someone else, the outcome is that we find ourselves in second place. His point is that it is NEVER a good idea to compare yourself. You will ALWAYS feel like the loser.

My H actually told me that I could have been the PERFECT wife and his A still would have happened. It really had very little to do with what I lacked or she had...just timing and ENs.

You're doing great. Keep going.

HTM

Tattoo this on your eyelids!!!!

LOL...it's easy for him to remember that I don't have to be perfect. It's just hard for ME to remember. Maybe you're on to something with the tattoo idea! While we're at it, I'm going to have H tattoo "I love my wife and will not stray" on the inside of his.

ROFLMBO....

Sign my DH up!!!!!!

It must be a sign of getting better when we can find humor in our current circumstances...right? We're not just sick?

Sorry for the minor TJ Fiori...I'm sure you'd join in the tattoo club too.

thanks...you're a peach
Sorry about the phone...you just disappeared. I could hear every third word so I did not want you to think I hung up!
We'll chat tomorrow.

My H does not wear a wedding ring and never has. This has always been a bugger for me but I've tried to let it go. He will often ask where mine is if I forget to put it on after cleaning or doing dishes. So, I often joke that I'm going to sign him up to have one tatoo'd on his finger Pamela Anderson style!

For anyone out there who cares....
I HATE MY HUSBAND'S JOB!!!!!

Have a good weekend all!

What happened?

Nothing, really. It's just that both our boys are out for most of the evening. We have the opportunity to spend some good quality time together and he's stuck at work fixing some crazy problem that seemingly came about at 4:00. Of course, his boss is off to the shore for the weekend and I'm home alone. It's kind of lonely. My two best girlfriends moved 1/2 hour away and to me Friday night is a family time. Soooo, here I am...headed out to watch the hummingbird and water our plants.
On a good note, he's moving to the other building on Monday. The OW is NOT!!!! She'll be remaining where their offices currently are. So, now there will be a city street of space! It's not quite a new job yet, but it's a good beginning.
I'm really ok, just a little sad and not wanting to be alone.

Awww...I understand how that can feel.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

I just have a brief question.
Because my circumstances are complicated (ow still works at same company but now in seperated buildings) is it ok that I occassionally feel the need to remind H of the 'rules' of engagement? Things are so much better, but I believe the longer the time is the more likely they are of at least engaging in casual conversation. Now, with him in the other building, visuals seem non-existent, but how can you be sure? All I have to go on is him and he's acting very sure. But, hey....I would have never thought I'd be here! Sometimes I feel the need to give a refresher course on exactly what NC means. He's so evasive sometimes that I believe this is probably necessary...But, how frequent? He is still searching for a new job, but this is a crappy economy to be doing that!
Thanks, for anyone who may be able to offer some support.

If you trust that there is truly no contact and trust that you two are in recovery, I suggest using policy of joint agreement about this situation.

You could preface it by describing your feelings of panic that you sometimes get. Then just ask him if he has any ideas of how he can assure you that no contact for life is being maintained, given that they still work for the same company. Maybe the two of you together can work out a plan where you feel safe.

My plan is that she moves to Alaska...do you think that's fair?

Not really--I like Alaska too much for that to seem fair to me.

Oh fine....then a remote deserted island where it is inhabited by man eating kimodo dragons! Really, I'll supply her with a really good pair of running shoes. I don't wish her any ill will so I'll provide the proper shoes for running away!

seriously though....is there a time when a small refresher course is required or do you simply use LIFE as your teacher?

I think you have every right to keep this "fresh" on his mind. I like lake's approach though because it's the POJA and therefore there is buy in from him as well. Rather than it eventually feeling like you might be "nagging".

But I wouldn't want to be in your situation with her in the same company and I TOTALLY get where you are coming from. So try what lake suggested and let him have a say in how it should look as well and then do a regular "check-in" on how you guy are doing.

Sounds more positive that way.

Last night my anger at H sort of got away with me because of a very ridiculous situation. We are in the process of a kitchen renovation. Anyone who has gone through this realizes what a stress this can put on a household. Fortunately we are in a position where my H is very handy and has done 85% of the work himself. But, the trade off is that it takes over a year.
So, last night I needed to make a dessert for the 4th celebration. Our old oven has been acting up and requires special attention when turning it on. It's sort of rigged right now, which annoys me to no end. But, I understand that having it repaired is a waste of $ as the new cabinets will be installed within a week. So, there will be new appliances. Anyway, H takes out the bottom of the oven, gets out his trusty little mirror so he can see under the heating element and begins filling the oven with gas so he can light the element. It takes about 5 minutes and then it begins heating! No problem...He then takes the kids out to Best Buy while I bake a blueberry buckle. Long story short...I put in the cake and head upstairs for a quick bubble bath. I notice a very strong odor of gas wafting upstairs from the outside. So, wrapped in a towell I go downstairs only to be accosted by the scent of gas! I call H and explain the dilemma. NO big deal...it's fine...just turn off the oven...
Ok, are you (H) missing the fact that I've got $11 worth of blueberries in a cake I'm making for you? Here's the problem...where was the concern? Where was the nurturing? Where was the love? He wasn't mean, he wasn't rude. But, I never felt 'cared for'. IT's hard to put it into words. I've always thought that H treated me like I could do anything and I really did not need him. I've always felt like no matter who he had to choose from, he'd always defer to someone elses feelings over mine. He's always felt I was so strong and could take care of myself. That became evident during his EA. He witnessed me crying in a fetal position and losing weight hand over fist and he still nurtured OW because she was hurting and he felt 'responsible'. Anyway, a simple oven experience became about how I was NOT treated by H for the past year. Hmmm...the oven as a trigger. I'm finding them everywhere. He's funny, too, how he turns it around on me. "why do you want to be with me if I'm that bad of a person...it's scary that you keep telling me what needs of yours I'm not meeting..." Basically, for the entire time he entertained OW, he was telling me where my supposed short comings were. You know...the 'connection', the great 'conversation'...two words no one in my house is allowed to use!
Well, I feel better now. It's the 4th and my kids and I love this holiday. We will go to parades, light fireworks and have fun. As a family we've always loved this and I'm not going to let my overactive brain ruin it for all. So, I decided to dump here so I could move on for the rest of our weekend. It's funny...H does not even know what hits him sometimes. I really feel a bit 'off' from time to time.

In order to do RECOVERY, you will have to FORGIVE and STAY OUT OF THE PAST. FOCUS on the POSITIVE and the PRESENT....

Make NEW, UNFORGETTABLE MEMORIES for THIS FOURTH OF JULY!!

He's home with you. He TRIED to fix the stove for YOU. He was out with YOUR KIDS. He will be there with YOU today...You are working on a beautiful kitchen renovation TOGETHER...

It is KEY not to compare YOUR RELATIONSHIP with HIM to his RELATIONSHIP with the OTHER WOMAN. You don't know what their relationship was REALLY LIKE and you do not want your relationship to be IN ANY WAY the same.

YOU ARE HIS WIFE. SHE WAS AND IS A HO...NO COMPARISON WHATSOEVER...He CHOSE to be with you FOR LIFE...

Glad you dumped here. You saw what kind of trouble my "overactive" brain got me into.

I read in Eckhart Tolle's book (that same Sunday night) that we have a pain body and that pain body comes out for nourishment. I'm probably not saying it right, but when we allow the negative thoughts to be there, we are feeding this pain body. I'm going to buy the book that I sat skimming through at B&N that night when I was distraught and then maybe I can better describe it.

Mimi posts a good model though for dealing with the here and now. Maybe you can print that part and post it up somewhere.

THIS IS YOUR LIFE!!! AND HE IS IN IT!!!

Don't let those bad thoughts take over....

Thank you to both of you!

Today is a new day and I'm going to grab it head on!
Happy 4th.

You know I have a DIRTY MIND, Fi..

Well, ok...there's that too! As soon as the kiddies go to bed and the inlaws go home!!

I was referring to YOUR COMMENT about "GRABBING IT", etc... ... LOL....You are the one that said it...

ETA: "GRABBING" can occur without others knowing about it...

Ahhh....I thought you might have been referring to 'the head' part of the phrase! See, my mind is dirty too!

I WAS referring to THAT PART of the PHRASE...LOL...

Right now I'm not really looking for answers...just a place to let out my feelings...which are NOT good. These past 10 days have been very stressful to my relationship with H as a result of his job. Not because of OW, simply because there have been really big problems at work and they had to assemble an emergency response team to fix the troubles and he headed it up. Normally this would be very frustrating for me, but now that OW has entered our lives it has become unbearable. H has worked at his job for many, many years and his dedication and loyalty are without compare. However, this is the venue in which he was able to 'connect ' with the piece of crap and it frustrates me when he's late coming home 10 days in a row. Not just an hour or two...he does not show up til 10 or 11pm. Of course, I have visions of hot dates swirling in my head. Anyway, he calls repeatedly from his desk phone so he can show me that he is where he really says he is. I truely appreciate this, but it's not enough to totally quell my fears. So, flash forward to this weekend. As usual, there were 'major' troubles that only HE could fix. Amazing how that's always the case. He works for a major corporation and he's always the ONLY one who is capable of fixing an issue. So, last night the system was down...not his fault but problematic if he needs to run a job. He sheepishly asks if I mind if he goes 1/2 hour into Center city to manually run the job, as the network is not allowing him access from home. I respectfully decline. I never actually said NO, but I did tell him that it was his choice but that it did not make me comfortable considering it was a Saturday night and OW still works at the same company and I did not trust that she would not either show up on her own or make covert plans. He swears there has been absolutely NO contact at all since February. Only one of us believes this to be true. I really have no proof about this, just fear. He lied so many times before, how do I know he's not lying now? Anyway, he gives in and stays home. But, knowing him, I realized he was egging his way into getting there some time either today or tonight. Sure enough, it's 10:15 on Sunday night and he's on the way into CC to manually start this job. Says it will make his day much easier tomorrow if this particular part of the process can complete over night. Ok, so I'm thrilled his day will be easier...I will suffer from intestinal distress and fear. I hate the way my heart beats out of my chest. I feel as if I have absolutely no control. My sister just broke up with a new boyfriend because he did not make her feel special. H says to me..."wow, your sister probably would have kicked me to the curb years ago!". Hmmm....if you recognize your shortcomings, don't you change them? Sorry, I got off topic a bit. Anyway, I just needed to settle myself by dumping this here. I have to admit, I did tell him that if he saw OW there not to bother coming home. I cannot go through another year like this again.

Has anyone heard of EMDR? I think those are the letters. May be in a different order. Anyway, IC suggested it as a way to erase bad thoughts and help me to move forward. I'm not sure I will be able to do it on my own. Sadly, though, our insurance does not pay for any type of individual or family counseling until January. I am trying to hold on til then so I can get some real help to erase my memory. I'm thinking hypnosis. Initially I fought the idea because I thought it was not wise to forget the pain as it would give H an avenue to continue with OW. Ok, I'm rambling now. Sorry to unload. I just needed to get out what was swirling in my head so I can go upstairs and pretend all is well for my boys. Til tomorrow...

Oh, here's a sidebar...
H just called. It's 10:25ish. He has gotten to town and he called to thank me to 'letting' him go. What's that mean?

I didn't know that the OW still works with him. Can't happen. Not acceptable. As long as that is the case, you have every reason to be anxious and will continue to be so EVERYTIME he goes to...

I'm not making excuses, but they no longer work with each other. He had her transferred out of his area last October. She continues to work for the same corporation but are now in different buildings. Still, not far enough away for my taste. He continues to look for a new job. Hopefully she won't follow! Sadly, she seems that desperate. But, there has been no contact since Feb. so we can be hopeful.

((fiori)) So sorry you are going through this.

About the bad feelings...My H has been really busy with his job/orientation and not really meeting my needs... couple that with us not being on the same wavelength in terms of following the MB plan and I almost threw the towel in this weekend so I can relate! (I'll have to update my thread later today)

I don't think is going to help...cuz I think your H working in the same place as OW is going to be too strong of a trigger for you to overcome with therapy, etc.

I will keep you in my thoughts and say a prayer that your H gets a new job soon.

ps. Would snooping such as doing something like dropping in on your H or driving by to make sure OW's car isn't there at night help you to feel better? I could definitely see myself doing that if I was in your position...

I'm going to put a little spin on perspective right now. I am sitting here wondering, sometimes, how I will get through another day wondering if my H will ever really love me the way he used to again. Then, I look out my window and see the tree man drop a 20ft. branch from his crane and it rips the corner of my house off and all the electric and phone lines with it! So, I then, at that moment, realize -- I am alive, I am married, I am loved. It's a little broken right now but it's still ALL mine. Mine to claim both good and bad. Mine to fix with and without help. H is inconsistent, at best. He is attentive one day and moody the next. This is not me, this is his job. He has allowed this supposed 40 hour debacle to run his life. And, it has infiltrated his marriage too. Now, I will marinate chicken -- his favorite -- hope the house gets fixed by the tree men and wait for H to come home. The new kitchen cabinets get installed next week and DS $70000 tuition bill is due. But, I am alive, I am married and I am loved.

Disclaimer --- this positive attitude can change on a dime!!

Oh, allow me to add to the craziness...not only did they pull down a chunk of my house, but now I see they chainsawed right through the bottom five planks of my next door neighbor's brand new fence!!! Whoopee! Again...it's not people.

the board seems slow this week...where is everyone?

Here are some random thoughts.
Today I struggle with the lack of speaking with my H. Not that we are arguing, just that he seems to get very caught up while working. I try, really I do, to understand the dynamics of his day. But, I used to work fulltime too and I know that no matter how busy you are you can always carve out 10 seconds to touch base with your loved one and let them know they are on your mind. This doesn't even cross his mind. Time tics by and I get more and more frustrated. If you read a few posts above you'd know that he had to go into the city over the weekend to run a job that was compromised by a system being down. This is a major trigger for me as he used to go into town to work on late nights in the past and I know at least a few times OW was there chugging away with him. He no longer works with or near her but it's still upsetting to me. So, on Monday, he was like the most attentive H ever. I swear he called me hourly just to say he loved me and see how my day was going. Today, NOTHING. Its 12:15pm and still no call. I'm trying to wait it out and just let him have his time at work..maybe the entire city has crashed to the ground and I missed it all because I was cleaning toilets and shopping for dinner! Who knows??? Anyway, I wonder what I'm supposed to do. Do I let it go and when he does finally call act like nothing's wrong? Or, do I let him know I'm disappointed that he's so inconsistent? This stinks because sitting in the building right next door is that dumpy red-head and she's probably ready to pounce!!!
Anyone have ajob in the East Coast to offer a man who is VP of the retirement dept. for a major company? He's in IT and works like a trooper!!! Better yet...anyone on the West Coast have a crappy job to offer a dumpy red-head who probably doesn't even realize this is all still swirling in my crazy head.
Again...I am alive, I am married, I am loved.

I get a nervous feeling too when you describe what he has to do for his job. So much time away from you. I think it's completely normal what you have felt.

If he is at work during the regular day though and you're not hearing from him, he's probably just completely wrapped up in what he is doing. I have days that I am so busy at work, I can't believe half the day has passed by.

Change your routine up some so your mind can be busy and not giving that "OW free rent in your head" as I have been cautioned not to do from caring people on this board.

Triggers.....yucky!

You're doing awesome!

P.S. I posted a reply back to you on my thread.

P.S.S. What happened with the tree falling on your house?

Only,
I'm so glad to have heard from you again. I feel like if we were anywhere near each other we could be friends. Sort of a club I never asked to be in but ended up liking!

Anyway, H's job really has been a thorn in our sides for many, many years. It's only gotten worse once we added the third party to our marriage. REally, a third party has always been there -- the job in general. My H was raised by a single mom who had to work her tail off to make ends meet. She made it very clear to her children that work came first and family second. I, through many head banging sessions, have tried to impress upon H that just because you are bringing in a paycheck does not mean you are providing all that is wanted or needed. She taught him that presence was secondary to $$. They had very little growing up and she taught each of them the value of hard work, I'm just thinking it went a little over the edge. H has to learn that there is a time and place for everything. I'd never expect or ask him to compromise his job security or his pristeen reputation, but there is alot of take and very little give regarding his work. This is one reason he desperately wants another job...long before OW contaminated the force feild. So, once you add the added stress of her possible appearance, an already sour situation become even worse. I try very hard to grin while grinding my teeth. I realize it's a sore spot with H so I try my hardest to be understanding while he has to try his hardest to take of the employee hat and put on the loving husband/father hat. It's a tug of war we may play for a lifetime.

As for the tree...we had a 1/2 dead oak tree between our house and the neighbor's. They did not want the tree men walking on their lawn (don't ask) so the tree men used a cran to cut the large tree into six sections. A crane hauled it over our house and into the waiting chipper truck on my driveway. Too bad the first section slipped out of the pully. It was an accident...no one got hurt. And, I think they slipped us a bonus. The bill came today and it was actually the exact same amount as the estimate!! We were half expecting a $500 increase when they had to use the crane. It's still way too much money...but it wasn't more!

My goal for this weekend is to have an A-free weekend. I'd like to not discuss anything at all about feelings, fear, dishonesty or any dumpy red-heads. Hopefully she cooperates by not calling here! It's been since February (to my knowledge) so we'll see what happens. H is going out with a 'head-hunter' tonight to a pro baseball game. He does not usually go out on what we consider to be 'family' night, but we're both hoping he'll get a chance to pick this guy's brain as to what is available in his feild in the area. Wish us luck!

That sounds promising.

I hope you have a terrific weekend.

Interestingly, I believe that my H's experience as a child caused him to live in a place of "scarcity". He is always "hoarding" things because his parents did not always have things. They lived a life where they either had ALOT or they had nothing.

My parents taught me to work hard and I've always been the primary bread winner in both marriages. When we did the EN questionnaire last, I moved FS to my top 5. I told him that he has 4 years (until my youngest graduates high school) to get a degree and be the primary income of our home. I said, it's time to switch places. You want me to give more DS and this is how it can be done. He was like...."ok then..."

I've always been willing to have the high paying job in order for us to have the "toys" that he wants. But I have sacrificed alot and now that I see how much he holds it against me that I don't do more around the house, it's time for him to take on that role so that I can meet his EN of DS. Make sense?

I will pray that your H gets another job. I feel for you being in your situation. But from what it sounds like, he is out of the FOG and withdrawal. Is that accurate?

You can email me anytime.

Take care.

Now that's the $6million question...Is he out of the fog?
He says he is...some days I wonder. But, I'm not sure if it's my paranoia or reality. Tonight I'm spooked by his baseball game. I was out trying on bathing suits and was irritated that he never called all day. But, once I got home I see that he did a few times. The cell phones do not work in the dressing room of Macy's and I was in there a loooonnnngggg time. Fortunately I did not say anything to him.
Isn't it funny how our parents can mold what we do as adults? I'm not a real believer that we do things because of how we were raised. My dad was a total dud. Actually, he was simply a mean person. But, I choose to NOT be mean. Who knows, maybe it's just not my personality, but it's a conscious choice. I refuse to pin every bad thing that happens to me on my parents. I suppose I did that with H...it was really just a reference.
Well, good luck with your weekend too. We have alot of work to do as we're prepping our kitchen for the installation of new cabinets that I've been waiting a very long time for. I'd like to be excited about it, but somewhere deep, down inside I'm afraid that once the kitchen is finished H will have his guilt removed (we've lived in a state of construction since the beginning of his EA) and will leave. We've discussed this and he says I should not give that any thought...but it's not easy. See, that wench found a way unknowingly to ruin my new kitchen too!!!

Here's another thought...
H called around 4:30 to let me know that he no longer planned on going to Baseball game. When I inquired as to why...he told me it was because he was getting a bad vibe from me. I quickly told him that this was not acceptable. I wanted him to make proper choices and that did not include babysitting him for the rest of our married life. I did not want him to be excluded from activities just because I am afraid. The point was that he had to make the right choice...either go to baseball game with person planned or go on a date with OW. There was clearly only one correct choice. He assured me that he was going with planned person and I said.."ok, then no problem". I also indicated that I appreciated his consideration. Really, what I wanted to say was..."But, if I find out you were really on a covert meeting with that piece of crap person...don't bother coming home!!!" I refrained. Really, I don't believe he's seeing her and I totally am comfortable with him going with this man as he can help with job opportunities. I'm mostly jealous because other than going to the beach, this is my other most favorite activity -- pro baseball games!

It's too bad you couldn't go too. I think it was good on his part to pick up on your feelings and be willing to choose something that would not make you uncomfortable. And good for you, stating your need and accepting/expecting that he is a mature man that CAN make good choices.

So the kitchen remodel was a result of the EA? I can see how you might attach the completion of the kitchen to a feeling. It's good that you are talking to him about it.

Perhaps you need to plan your next long-term activity together that will start once the kitchen remodel is done.

I wish I could go. We tried to get tickets but the event is sold out. He is going with a man through work. H uses this gentleman to hire contract programmers. This man benefits greatly each time H uses one of his hires -- he's an executive headhunter. So, maybe they can talk a little shop since they'll be off work premesis. It's a way for this guy and his company to say thank you for the business.
As for the kitchen, it's not a result of the EA. They simply coincided. If I never heard some of the things he said to me then I may not still think he'd leave. Who knows! But, I'll see what we can do about planning. We're thinking an inground pool in our back-yard...that takes a while right?

You have such a great personality. You make me laugh!

Hang in there!

It's funny you say that..today I had the 5th person tell me how much I've changed over the past year. Apparently there is no spark in my personality and no twinkle in my eye. Hmmm....I wonder if that's because the person I love most in this world told me indirectly that I wasn't good enough! Oh well, I'll have to see what I can do about restoring the spark & sparkle. When I told H that yet another person at Church said that to me this morning his response was "well, I guess that's my fault too." I did not comment as I knew I would cry or begin an argument. I have no engergy for either as it's a busy day with kid type activities.
By the way...the A free weekend did not quite work out the way I planned. I feel like an emotional wreck some days and I suppose yesterday was one of them. Friday night he went to the ballgame but did come home early. I told him I appreciated his thoughtfulness but could not get out of my mind that he did not communicate with us in any way while at the game. Apparently he 'forgot' his cell phone in his car. Ummm....this is a man who takes it in the bathroom sometimes. A bit strange that he forgot it on a night when I was fearful of who he'd be with. Really, my rational mind knew where he was and who he was with, but the irrational side (which seems in control right now) imagined him on a hot date -- not even something they ever did. So, the internal struggles are mine right now. I know that I have to be the one who can 'get over' this in order for us to repair any damage done. Right now, I'm not seeing the end for me. I don't see me getting over this any time soon. So, each day I will take it 24 hours at a time and see how I end up.
I hope it was good for you. We'll chat on Monday.

fiori,

I had to read up on Dr. Harley's articles and information about obsessing to "snap me out of it", so to speak. I read where he said that obsessing is very damaging. I still do it sometimes, and it's so hard once I let myself go to that deep dark hole to get out of it.

That's why I know how hurt you feel. Try not to let those evil alien thoughts get the best of you. You're far too precious to allow that dumpy red head's venom to be anywhere on your skin or in your heart.

Ha,ha...I just watched one of the Aliens with my DH this weekend and I was thinking about the acid that they spit out that burns up the person and the clothing that it touches.

Have you ever heard of Radical Forgiveness? It's a book from Colin Tippin (spelling?). It comes with a CD with some terrific music on it and an exercise you can go through to help remove those yucky feelings.

I just said last night to that sweet man of mine that I needed to read a book. I go through spurts where I need to read and then I can go for a long while. So, I'll look it up and see if it helps me.

Today is a little better. I left with one of my son's to take him to band practice and spent the couple of hours with my friend and her kids watching as they did 'tricks' in the blow up pool. I knew if I stayed here all day I'd just pick at him so I waited for the child to be finished. Smart choice!
So, spewing venom? Where can I get me a bottle of that there yucky stuff? I'd need a garden hose to adminsiter that!

This past weekend I had a bit of a realization regarding the recovery from H's EA. Basically, in order for us to really come to a point where we have a healthy marriage, I have to do most of the hard work. Yes, he has to be emotionally available and re-connect to our marriage and stay away from the dumpy red-head, but really...the work is mine. I have to find a way to really forgive him and be able to move past feeling as if I was kicked to the curb and replaced with a younger/better model. H does not get it when I tell him it feels like he has a mental tick list running in his head and is constantly comparing she and I. He says that was never ever a factor...it just was. To me, that's ridiculous. If I decided to 'date' another man while married I guarantee you he'd be comparing himself to this OP constnatly. So, because my H fell prey to his ego, I'm left trying to discover how compassionate and kind my own heart is. Right now, I cannot imagine me in a position when I totally forgive. I am trapped by my desire to move on and my need to protect myself from any further hurt. No, I don't think there will never be hurt again in my life, but there can't be hurt and pain like this. I cannot allow myself to be vulnerable to this betrayal ever again. My problem is that my father did this to my mother. He's been dead for 20 years and her anger and bitterness from betrayal are as fresh today as they were when it occurred. No way am I going to look back at my life to find out that all I have consistently in my life is bitterness. Yesterday at church someone who knows me mostly as an acquaintance said I seemed 'different'. This is about the fifth person in the last year to comment that I'd lost a certain spark. Hmmm....
So, I struggle with the reality of what lies ahead of me. I have to be able to look in the mirror and feel confident trusting my H again. And, I have to trust myself...something I'm not sure I can do. I was duped. I was fooled and taken advantage of. Last night H told me he felt he was in the fight of his life. He's struggling with our marriage, with his job, with his reputation with our kids and financially. There is not one part of his life that seems secure to him. I'm basically afraid to have fun. If I'm seen laughing and playing does he then automatically assume I'm 'fixed'? This is what he is waiting for. I'm not sure I have to tools to fix myself on my own. Sadly, our insurance changed on January 1 and no longer allows for counseling. I'm going to try to hold it together for a few more months so we can switch back and I can get taken care of. Last night H also told me that he was fearful that I'd never be able to get over this. I'm fearful of this very thing. I so don't want to ruin our future because there's a hurdle I can not overcome. How do you do it? Is it simply too soon? Should I still feel such rage when I think of OW? The rage frightens me sometimes. I fantacize about what I'd do if I saw her. Some days that prospect is exciting and others it makes me nautious. So, I'm stuck. Afraid to move ahead and afraid to remain in the past. How long before I feel good enough to take a step?

I think you HAVE to get over the rage before you can really start recovering. And I don't know HOW you do that. Other than just trying your very best to let go of it inside and embrace the place that you and your H are at now. You need to be having fun and laughing...H won't see you as fixed. And if he does, you just remind him that you aren't.

Your H is doing a lot of good things for recovery. Try to look at those things. Focus on the positive and really make a conscious effort to remove the negative. I don't mean you need to be blind to what is going on around you, but you need to get into a position of control where you mind wanders. Find a mantra and say it over and over when the negative thoughts creep in.

As much as you and I have discussed the pros and cons of MB, I think that you might be wise to jump in with some faith for awhile and see how it goes. Try following the MB principles. Spend the time together doing fun things. Talk about how both of you are protecting your M with Extraordinary Precautions. It might give you more peace of mind to have a real PLAN.

I'll tell you how it goes with Jennifer. Maybe that would be helpful too.

There's really no betrayal in my relation personally, but my wife seems to have similar views to what you're feeling. I understand that and those feeling are real and important. But if your husband is truly repentive and you can logically see that, does it makes sense to weigh what life will be like for your family in Divorce as oppose to marriage?

I could be way off and I didn't read up on this particular case, but to me it seems like recovering marriage is a temporarly thing..a couple years of dedication and it can be as good as new? But divorce is forever...when you have kids atleast. It isn't a way of really getting rid of the pain. Maybe it's just that you need to come to terms with who you are what've you've done. Find the right boundaries between you and your spouse and leave the rest up to God.

Mel,
I agree. But just to be clear, it was H who deviated, not me. It's probably not really important to clear that up but I felt a ripple of yuckiness when I thought you might have thought it was me.

You know what? I'm not sure I can do this any more. I have too much hurt, too much betrayal and too much lack of progress.
I'm not sure I'm capable of moving past this and moving forward. H is a total A*$. Too much is going on in our lives at the same time and he thinks we need to table our relationship stuff so we can deal with the rest of our lives....kitchen renovation, money & tuition. Really??? Is that how it works? You table stuff and put it on the back burner? Never mind....I'm not even making sense. I simply feel like I falling down a tunnel and cannot climb out.

God Fiori - I was there and know what you are talking about and feeling. I was fortunate to have a MC who I could call and she would clear the forest for me. The reality was I could not change the past. I had to accept I contributed to contaminating the relationship. I had a husband who was committed to recovery.
I had to answer did a few months of misguided direction (going through his MLC) worth throwing away 18 years of what we built together? Yeah it sucks because if something was wrong in the relationship - I would not have gone to an affair but he chose to. If you read a book about boys and how they act out when they want attention you can understand male behavior. My husband wanted me to find out about his affair. Women talk about what they feel - men act it out. If your husband is committed to recovery it takes time. I can only speak for myself - in our case it was my husband's commitment to recovery that brought me back to him. I still deal with resentment and I was recently thinking about it. I'm resentful because I would not have chosen an affair and he did. Reality check again-I can not change the past. My marriage is better than ever and I'm glad I got through the forest. I just have to deal with the little fires.

G

So your H did not have a PA? Sometimes I think I need to simply wake up and be glad for that. I read so many other posts about the horrific scene that occurs when a PA happens. Maybe I should be grateful it never progressed to that level.?? But, I don't feel grateful at all. I feel resentment and anger and betrayal. I feel like exactly what you said. I had needs in our marriage that were not being met but it never occurred to me to augment our marriage with another person. He brought in an intruder and I'm soooooo mad at him for doing so. We don't go to MC right now although I think we probably should. Unfortunately H changed insurance and it's not covered. And, the one we went to had a wife with her office across the hall. H is severely allergic to cigarette smoke and his wife puffed up a storm. Each session was met with 3-5 days of a sinus infection for H. So, we did get a recommendation to a new person but never followed through. Right now we're knee deep in expenses so it seems to have taken a back seat. We are trying really hard to communicate effectively, but any time he has anything even remotely negative to say, I think he's comparing me to OW. Maybe if she were this gorgeous icon I'd be able to see if for what it was...ego! But, he introduced this silly dumpy little waif who threatens me to no end! I thought I was a relatively confident person. And, I always KNEW in my gut that no matter what our struggles, neither of us would betray the other with another person. Well now, I was WRONG~ He's very sorry and very ready to move forward. But, I fell it's all been on his terms. When did it become about whether or not he was staying in the marriage? When did I give up the choice to decide if I wanted him to stay? I feel weak and desperate. Is this what it feels like to really love someone? You temporarily sacrifice yourself so that you're able to mend his mess? I think most of my issue (other than not being at the forgiveness stage yet) is my resentment. I feel like the lions share of work is mine. He still goes off to his job, he still gets his meals and laundry, he gets a doting wife waiting for his arrival and he doesn't ever have to wonder if someone else is waiting in the wings. How is that fair? I suppose I'm in a boo-hoo about me day. Maybe it's normal...I'm just soooo tired of the rollercoaster ride. It's like at Disney World when you go in that dark tunnel on the roller coaster. You know a dip is coming, but you can't anticipate it exactly. It's a total lack of control.

Believe me I understand your anguish. It's not fair to the BS. I remember telling the MC I was the glue that held everything together and I didn't want to do it anymore. I really wanted to divorce my husband. In MC we worked on the book Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil. The first three chapters were really good. We also came to this site at the same time and read the articles and did some of the questionnaires. The question to you Fiori is do you want to be right or do you want to recover? If you want to be right you're going to continue punishing your husband. Reality - relationships are hard. My husband and I brought issues from our upbringing into our marriage. You can't help that after spending most of your first 20 years with parents molding you. We had serious issues with communicating. Our top needs were affection, conversation and time together - none of which we were meeting. I feel like you - sometimes I think my husband got to bake his cake and eat it too. I feel for you about the dumpy red head - I got a kick out your post on the subject. I don't know what the OW looks like and I prefer not to know. I know she went to the gym but had a slew of problems. My husband realizes now he would have gotten into a mess. He also reminds me that it was not a PA and that I should be thankful because I could have gotten a disease. I remind him PA or EA - it's the same to me. Is your husband working with the tools on this site? I use to email my husband links and he really liked this site.

Fiori, I think this hits the nail on the head. It may not seem like you are trying to decide between these two things, but I think GA is right. Your H can only tell you he was wrong so many times. It won't change the outcome. And while he might be able to do more for the recovery, he may not know what it is he should do. Have you talked about a specific list of things that HE could do to help you recover?

Your anger is feeding your resentment and until you figure out how to let go of that part, I don't think you CAN get beyond that and into a successful recovery. I'm not much for behaviorism, but sometimes I think it is true that emotions follow actions. If you are able to shelf your resentment for awhile (knowing that you still own it) and work on the good stuff, maybe when you go back to the resentment, you'll find it has diminished.

It's not fair that you have to do most of the work, but it seems like that is the way it goes in the beginning. I think that if you can focus on the idea that your work is for the both of you and that H will have to do his share along the line too, maybe you can get past the resentment of it all. I know that I have had to really fight that bug.

It doesn't matter that it was "just an EA." It was the lying and betrayal that hurt me...not the fact that he f*cked her...that is just another manifestation of the betrayal. Yes, you can be glad that there isn't that added dimension, but it doesn't make your experience less painful.

I don't agree with your H that you two should put this aside while you deal with other things first. You may have to deal with this LESS, but you can still put those EPs in place and work hard on meeting each others ENs without taking time away from the other concerns. I fought through this one with H a lot. In the end, I told him that we needed to deal with the A NOW or there wouldn't be much of a M to fight for.

Call me if you want to vent. I never know when you are without little ears...

HTM

I want to add another thought. Some women tend to subconciously keep score. "Plus" for everything we do and "Minus for everything the husband doesn't do. This scoreboarding fuels and builds resentment over time.

GA,
If I may...how long did your husband's EA last? Was there a sustained period of lying to you? My H worked with OW. So, there were so many times that they spent hours together at work and then he would have to "stay for a meeting" and now I realize she was in the meetings too. Do I think they were really meetings...yes I do because that is the nature of his job. But, I think it became easier for him to stay at work knowing his comrade was there. I can recall soooo many times that he lied to me and chose to be 'faithful' to her feelings over mine. I suppose that is all part of the fog.

So, I believe you hit the nail on the head too. I do want to be right. And, I want him to grovel. That's mean and I realize that when I say it, but I need him to jump. I need him to see that he has to do whatever it takes to make me feel like I'm not standing on the edge of a cliff. Why won't he take initiative? Yup, he's never been like that pre EA, but isn't the whole point of recovery to chage what got you here in the first place? Does that mean you change personality traits? He's a sucky communicator, but that's the title I received so he could rationalize how "great" he and OW got along. Heck, I meet men all the time who I can easily communicate with...that doesn't mean I want to replace H. I feel like I've reached a fork in the road. I have to let him off the hook in order to pattern forward. Am I ready for that yet? If I do, does he then diminish the importance of meeting MY needs? H does not come to this site. He has, though, read several of my postings. When something really important is said i cut/paste them and give them to him at night for him to read. This is something he does very willingly and is glad for someone elses input. I think his biggest hurdle is that he feels like the Wayward is portrayed as a horrible person. He really feels like he got into a situation that took on a life of its own (admittedly by his own actions) and is NOT a horrible person. He feels like a good guy that made a bad choice. But is he? Or is he simply lazy and egotistical? It's a toss up. I think it's much easier to replace what appears cracked than to fix what you already have. It's funny, he's really handy and would NEVER throw anything away that he did not at least try to fix. I always tell him I'm tired of living in a 'gerri-rigged' world. But, when it came to our marriage he simply bailed.
I think I'm simply overwhelmed right now. I hate having these men in my house. The oven hood is wrong and my contractor is telling me "Oh well...." Great!!! MEN!!! And, the only way to fix it is either become a raving lunatic or flirt! I have no energy for one and no interest in the other.

What HTM said above is where I find myself often. It takes hard work to get through that resentment. I would encourage you to work on that part of the healing because you could be sabotaging your end results. I say that out of both sides of my mouth because I need to hear it as well. There are days when I'm done and ready to move on too.

Write your own Personal Recovery plan. This EA does not define who you are, you are better than this bad situation that happened. Time will heal and you can help that process.

What will you do for YOU today?

I just had a moment of clarity. And, it's mean. I think that I am not letting go of my resentment and anger because deep down inside, I feel like if I continue to hurt, he hurts too! I want/need for him to feel and crappy as I do. I have to know that on some level he's miserable. Trust me, he's moved on. I mostly believe him when he says what's done is done and he's here which is where he wants to be. On clear days I believe this to be true. But, if I move on, who hurts him? I know...there's no niceness to this, but isn't it normal? I feel like the more I inflict on him the better I'll feel. Really, it's not working at all. Rationally I can see that. But, I feel like I have a sick NEED to make him hurt. Does anyone else do this or am I basically certifiable?

I'm sending you a great big hug across the country!

I don't think that letting go of the resentment means that you let your H off the hook at all. I think that it means you are willing to move forward with him.

I know that you WANT H to jump through hoops, but I don't know if that is realistic. In his own way, has he been helping the recovery? Is he checking in with you? Is he talking with you? Is he TRYING to meet your needs? Those may be the best hoops he can do. And you need to really be careful about punishment. I don't think that punishing HIM will help either one of you recover. In the end, you will feel guilty about it and he will feel alienated.

I really think that you two need to sit down with a third party and talk. I know money is tight, but you might be able to find a pastor who can do it for less. And then you need to make sure that you are having FUN together. You need to find the man that you married so that you can love him again. Limit your negative discussions to one hour a week...maybe one night that is designated as a check in. Then make sure that you are enjoying each other for the rest of the week.

I sometimes think that we write advice for our friends here so that WE can see the advice that we need to follow ourselves...

HTM

I TOTALLY understand the need to make him HURT. I don't think my H has any concept of the pain that I have endured and I would LOVE to dish it out. But it isn't helpful and in the end I ask myself if I want to recover or if I want revenge. Revenge doesn't really make me happy in the long run...so I fight the urge and work on the other stuff.

I think it's natural to want to hurt him back. There are some threads on here about revenge affairs (I know that's not what you're thinking, but it might have some info). You just have to find a way to move past that.

I do it all the time. It makes me physically sick and feeling toxic though and has taken a HUGE toll on my health. I sometimes wonder if underneath it all, I'm truly punishing myself because I don't think that I was worthy of having a H that was faithful. That's a twisted thought, isn't it?

That's why I think the CODA or Alanon (free) group will help you. I agree with HTM that you guys need some counseling, but if you can't do that financially right now, don't give up on yourself. Do the work on YOU and then you'll be even better and more prepared.

I have to remind myself every day ( I pass through her town 2 times a day when commuting) that she does not deserve to have free rent in my head! It takes effort. I look forward to the day that I have passed through the town and not thought of her even one time.

Fiori,
I understand about contractors - unfortunately you have to keep after them if you want the job done right. It's hairraising but in the end you be pleased with the results of the renovation and they will be gone one day. My H EA went on somewhere between 4-6 months. The OW went to the same gym and they would go out afterwards - of course lying to me about it. When he started staying out later and later I knew something was up. He was also communicating with ladies via cell phone that he met through online dating. Imagine how I felt when I saw him shirtless photo showing off his body for his dating website photo (Puke!). I still can't believe he carried phone conversations with his single male friend about ladies in front of my son. I ache for what my kids were exposed to but believe me his actions came back to bite him in the [censored] months later when my kids acted a certain way and it brought him to tears because of the realization of what his action caused (I have teenagers). I have to say the book Relationship Rescue through MC was a big help to both of us in our recovery. The first chapter is dedicated to working on yourself and that's what you need to do. To much of your focus is on him. Start to feed yourself with positive things. I know this is hard to do when your dealing with home and kids. You may enjoy one of Sarah Ban Breathneck books.

Do I see progress???

Tonight H was going to be late. Knowing that this is a huge trigger for me he called from his desk (not his cell phone) and asked me how to spell a word that he was using in an email. This, I know, was his way of showing me that he was really still at work and was thankful that when he called to tell me he'd be late I simply said "ok, let me know when you begin to wrap things up".

Just know...this was mucho tough for me. I really want to scream at him "QUIT YOU JOB YOU DUMB A#$. I NEED TO KNOW YOU AND THE DUMPY RED-HEAD DO NOT SHARE A ZIP CODE!!!!"

I refrained.

Excellent progress from both of you. You have to celebrate the efforts that he is making and celebrate the efforts that you are making.

WooHoo!!!

So,
What your saying is that I'm NOT allowed to hollar at him because it's 7:45 and he's still not home? Hmmmm....I'm in control, but every passing moment it gets more and more difficult.

i'm in control...i'm in control...i'm in control...i'm in control...REPEAT

Yes, that was his way of showing you that he was really at work. Most email programs have spell checkers (unlike these post boards) and if not, it's much easier to look it up online or through Words than calling someone...anyone.

Good job Fi!

I'm curious. Did you husband do the NC letter?

G

This is actually a yes & no response. When I came up with the knowledge of a NC letter, NC had already been established. OW's mother died and the funeral was an hour away. H did not go and this seemed to cement for her his seriousness, as many others from work did go. But, I'm no fool. He did write the letter and he did sign it. I have it in my posession and he knows that any time there is any sort of contact the letter gets mailed certified mail to OW. So far, this has not been needed. I will probably never know if he's being totally honest with me, but I try to judge by his actions and his words here at home. I think I believe he's cleared his head of her...I know I sure have not. I work every day to push the constant thoughts of this person out of my mind. Funny, his EA and I'm the one thinking of the dumpy red-head every day!

I know what you mean. You didn't ask for these kind of memories but unfortunately once there you can't get them out. I'm glad I never saw the OW.

Hey GA,
How are you doing?

I'm good today. Since Dday last August my husband has been great. He pretends it never happened but like you said the memories are there in the mind for me. I only deal with resentment sometimes and that seems to be popular with BSs. We are much better at meeting each other's needs now.

Good morning from sunny SoCal...

Fiori, how's the kitchen coming?

And good afternoon from cloudy Pennsylvania!!!

Aaaahhhh, the kitchen. This job has proven to be a real thorn in my side. Never mind the fact that I've waited approx. 12 years to get to this point, but we are also paying up front for everything we can so our cash flow is basically non-existent. And, my lovely kiddies are not understanding that too well!

Last week was the installation. 80% is up. But, we're in a bit of a dispute about the hood over the cook-top. Apparently the wrong size was ordered by the cabinet maker and the kitchen guy. Thankfully H and I did none of the measuring so it's really their fault. But, they both seem to feel the burdon is on us, as we signed off on the design. Well, I was never given an itemized bill for each cabinet ordered. I asked three times but was never given one. I suppose that was my mistake. I was too trusting!!!! Gosh, that's how I got here in the first place.

Anyway, now we're playing a waiting game. I can wait this guy out...that much I know for sure. Tomorrow the granite will be installed so I can have a sink and cook-top again. It's been two weeks without and it's really hard to do dishes in the bathroom pedestal sink! All in all, I love what portion of the results I have. I just wish it would be a little easier. But, what I have learned over this past year is that things are just things...it's the people who really matter and how you treat them and how they treat you. Hmmm...I hear thunder and it's trumpet lesson time. We'll chat later.

This is so true! I had spoken to a consultant and he told me if I wanted the renovation completed to work out the problems with the contractor. It was painful but I did it and it all worked out in the end. I guess you can say the same for recovery!!

Well.... I suppose I can trust my instincts!!!

This morning I looked in H's email's on his blackberry. Ok, so he must think I'm the dumbest human in the world. No, no emails on the inbox section from OW. But, I can read and I can listen. So, I open an email from another guy...John. The reference line says 'statements'. I know that OW has worked with H in the past on statements. Oh, and there it is... a series of email's between John and Ow about certain jobs that are running and processing. And, to top it all off...H is on the line where the email says "to". So, he's been getting emails indirectly from her relating to job stuff probably all along. He says it's not a big deal. She's not communicating directly with him, it's with John. He's is John's boss so it's necessary for him to be clued into exactly what's going on. Ok, I was abundantly clear as to what my version of ZERO is. He knew that i expected transparency. I expected him to be truthful and not evasive. You see, my H believes if he does not say it then it never really happened. Evasive. He believes that sins of ommmission are not real. SO, now I feel as if I 'm back at square one. I feel like all the progress has been wiped away. I feel like I'm married to a stranger. He was angry with me because I was not believing him when he says he has no relationship at all with OW> He says I'm keeping the hurt and pain alive by not moving forward and not letting certain things go. I looked him straight in the eye and told him that there was NO way he was going to blame me because he got caught in another lie. I was not going to be his scape goat for his stupidity and his selfish actions. Plan A out the window!!! This man is a nutjob and I'm embarrassed to have believed him for as long as I did. I wish I knew what to think. I wish I had a crystal ball. I wish I had a different marriage. I wish the dumpy red-head would fall off the face of the earth. My gut says to go into the city today and confront HER. I want to make a scene!!! I want to embarrass him and her! I want them to squirm like I am now. I want them to cry, to have to pretend for the sake of their children, to lose 25 lbs, to lose sleep and to be sad morning, noon & night!!!!!!!
I will go to church now and try to erase the anger and sadness that has come over me.

Oh wait....let me add more.
Apparently, I'm being unfair to him!!!! Now if that isn't the most ridiculous selfish pig like attitude I've ever heard. I'm the unfair one!!!!!!!!@!

\My anger right now is consuming. How dare that piece of sh/...tell me that I'm unfair. Because he apparently control whether or now others cc him on an email and then the piece of crap whore is able to continue emailing him under the guise of work.

So, the messege on my cell phone goes like this....


"I love you. I wish you would believe me when I say this to you. I have absolutely no contact with that person and I do not wish to have any now or ever again. I will get a new job. I will not stay here any longer...this I can promise to you. Please believe me...I love you."

I am a very reserved and quiet person, usually. But, in the last year of my life I have begun using the F word like it's 'the'. I hate what these two losers have turned me into. I don't even recognize myself any more. Somebody stop the ride.....I WANT TO GET OFF.

(((fiori)))) So sorry to read this. This must feel like another betrayal all over again.

I have worried about you for a while now...I don't know how I would deal with the triggers you have had to deal with and now this. Your H is extremely lucky you have put up with as much as you have.

What are you going to do?

I only wish I knew what I should do. This is his job...this is our livelihood. But, it's our marriage too. I just feel so insignificant. He has called three times in the last hour professing his love for me and that we've been through so much over the last 1 1/2 yrs. and that I should not let something that was out of his control get in the way of our recovery. He says I'm the reason we are not recovering because I'm unable to forgive. Forgive what??? Forgive that he brought a third party into our marriage and that he continues to grace the same zip code as her? Hmm...do I sound like a woman who's forgiven? The funny thing is that lately I've felt pretty good. I can even go two days without asking him if he's had any alien encounters. That's our code so we can speak if the kids are around. He comes home and says..."oh, by the way, I didn't have any alien encounters today." This has helped me tremendously. So, now he says I'm being unreasonable. The emails were not generated by him and the only reason they came to him was because him employee is wrapped up with the job. My deal was zero contact. If she has to look at a distribution list and check the box of who she wants the email to go to and his name is one of them...that is not zero. It's intolerable. It's disrespectful. I really want to go into the city and find her. I want to sit across from her woman to woman and find out what exactly she has going through her mind. Then, I want to smack her across the side of the head. Ok, so that's my plan. Do you think I'll get arrested? That would be the funny part. She wrecks my marriage and I get arrested. I wonder how often that really does happen?
Anyway, we all know that's not going to happen. So, my plan is that I have no plan. Smart, huh?

Fiori,
I'm sorry - I know how it feels to have someone else in the middle of your relationship. I'm going to give your husband the benefit of the doubt because he has continued to express that he wants to move forward and he is willing to do whatever it takes, even changing jobs. Your in a difficult situation because the woman is a coworker. As hard as it is keep one thing in mind - men think practical and women think emotions. Your definition of zero contact and his definition don't match up - so this is an area you have both to work on (communicating but more importantly listening to what the other person is saying). I want you to do this with your husband: Tell him your picking the topic "zero contact" and you are going to tell him three things about how you feel about it (do not use the word "You" at all - it's about how you feel not what he's done) Then ask him to repeat what you said. Have him do the same on the same topic and you repeat back to him what he said. After that you both do some conflict resolution. How can you agree on a resolution that you both will be happy with. And please do this when you are both calm!! Good luck.

This is my H. I don't know if this will be helpful but...

We recently counseled with Jennifer and I cannot sing her praises enough. She ascertained very quickly that one of my top ENs was O&H and my Hs was Admiration.

She spoke to him for a VERY long time...about 40 minutes...about EPs and the importance of O&H...and gave him an assignment to come talk to me nightly after work to discuss how he exercised EPs at work, not only to make me more comfortable, but to help him work on being O&H.

She worked with me on LB's. I didn't realize I was doing a lot of DJs the way that I was communicating with him and it was preventing him from being more O&H with me...

This has helped us tremendously. Clearly, I know your goal is NC but since you are waiting for that to happen, I think counseling with the Harleys could help you tremendously to preserve the love you have for each other. Hang in there...

I am so bummed it's a weekend because I need help.
Here's a brief summary...
H got in the shower Thursday morning. It's been a while so I took a peek at his blackberry with email. The phone log is clean of OW and so are any email. Until, I open one from another guy. Much to my surprise, the original email was started by OW to this John guy. H is John's boss. H has NOTHING work related to do with OW and they are no longer in same location. But, a series of 5 emails go back and forth between OW, John and two others. Because H knows what they are talking of and he's John's boss, John included him on the email exchange. So, OW did not directly get in touch but had specific instructions to contact H in no way, direct or indirect.
So, it was not fun. The heart pounds and I don't eat for the entire day. This is great for my diet.
Well, H and I realize early on that we are not really good at talking about this without a fight, so we begin an all day email exchange. This is good because we're able to really exchange ideas and there are no 'tones' or meanness ...One thing H is often irritated about is that I have these ideas that he needs to do this or that but I never have a plan to help him come to a resolution. So, here's my plan I offered him when he got home.
1. Speak to John directly. Explain to him that you've had trouble in the past with OW and would prefer to not be included on any future email exchanges where she is involved.
2. Send very cryptic email to OW: Please refrain from including me on any and all email distribution lists from this date forward. I appreciate your cooperation on this matter.
3. Hurry up and get a new job.

Ok, so now we're at a point of discussion. Sometimes heated. But, last conversation was that H would send the email to OW during work hours and from a work email address.

What do you think? Should we simply let it go or send the email? Do we wake a sleeping giant or are my suspicions correct that she's beginning to crack open the door and test the water to see how she can slowly ingratiate herself back into his life...even if beginning with work?

It sounds to me like you both are in agreement of what no contact means and have found a way to communicate that works for you - bravo! I say yes let H make it clear to OW that there should be no contact unless it is emergency work related and have him define emergency so she is clear. You H needs to do whatever it takes to restore your trust. I feel he realizes this. Sometimes men are slower at getting things (sorry if offend men out there). I know its hard but don't let this woman have control or power over your relationship. By focusing on what she does or doesn't do is giving her power. Always keep the focus on what your husband can and cannot do. It's ashame he has to find a new job, especially if he's happy where he is. He could become miserable somewhere else. Just think hard of the consequences of all your decisions. I was very shortsighted in the heat of the first few months of Dday. You've got a good husband who is committed to restoring your M.

Hi Fiori,
A question for you and H:
Did the FOW initiate the e-mail to your FWH or did John initiate the e-mail?

If John initiated the e-mail and since your H supervises John, he could tell John that he does not want to receive forwarded e-mail messages that originate with FOW. Even though your FWH supervises John, that is the price paid--no oversight or involvement in projects that involve FOW in any way.

If FOW initiated the e-mail to your FWH on her own initiative or due to some corporate protocol of inclusion of supervisors--FOW's supervisor should direct her to exclude FWH from any e-mail protocol. Again, the price FWH pays for the EA.

To me, it would be best if FWH does not contact FOW. She has a supervisor, let the supervisor make the contact. Again, this is the price your FWH pays for his conduct with OW in a corporate environment. I recall that your FWH received some assistance from a fellow supervisor in getting FOW moved out of his area of supervision. So some individual at your H's level of supervision within the corporation is aware of the situation. This individual can be enlisted to advise OW, or it may mean that some other supervisor of OW needs to be enlisted--whoever directly supervises OW should be the one to tell her to not use standard corporate protocol, or whatever, and to not include your FWH in any correspondence.

Also, I do not understand a few things about this situation:

I do not understand what you or your FWH means by: "One thing H is often irritated about is that I have these ideas that he needs to do this or that but I never have a plan to help him come to a resolution."

Are you saying that your H is saying that YOU should be the one to figure this corporate e-mail thing out??? I don't get that. Can't he figure it out??? Also, he knew that her name appeared in his e-mail log.... To me, it is a no brainer that he should have told you about this. You should not have found that in his log. He should have told you. He knew it would be an emotional hurt for you to find it.

If FOW initiated that e-mail and you found it in John's series of e-mails, that means that your FOW deleted e-mail from FOW. Is that what happened? Again, if that is what happened, it was way out of line for your H to do that.

I know that some of the issues you describe in your e-mails remind me of my relationship with my FWH. So I may be reading in to your issues more than is there or just misunderstanding your issues with your FWH because I am looking at them through my "marriage filter" so to speak.

But I am concerned about your marital situation because the FOW is still in the picture in that she works in the same corporation as your FWH and is removed from your marriage by only the fact that she works in a building across the street and by the fact that your FWH no longer directly supervises her.

I understand the situation that your FWH has a good job that is difficult for him to leave. His job market is limited due to his level of competence. At the same time, I just get the sense that at least to some extent, he is just laying low about the whole EA and hoping that with time, you will "get over it" and he can continue working at this job where he is VERY comfortable. He does NOT want to leave this corporation. The problem with that is that he is really underestimating the insult he gave you by his EA.

If I remember correctly, he spent about a year involved in a so called "friendship" with this woman. At some point, he brought her to your home. You read the signals that it was more than a "friendship". The two of you argued about it back and forth for months. Then, at some point, he told you words to the effect that he thought that maybe he was "supposed" to "be" with her and not with you. It just sounded like he slowly allowed himself to go down that "slippery slope" of an EA for about a year while you talked to him about it and expressed concern about it...and while he denied it. That is a long time for something like that to go on.

The fact that your FWH expects YOU to figure out this corporate communications problem involving OW makes no sense to me. Read Mel's concept again of a renter and a buyer. Your FWH is acting like a renter in this regard.

I am finally making headway with my FWH in his "renter" attitude. His EA was very short-lived. It was as though he was a "renter" with me, but a long-term renter. He had NO thought of ever disolving the rental lease. It was a rental Lease for life. But, he re-established a correspondence with a high school girlfriend and she was OH SO EXCITED to have him back in her life. He too brought her into my home to meet me. He did this at a point in the relationship where he realized she might think he wanted more than a simple firtation and ego boost. He thought, 'Oh yikes, better bring her home to the wife so it won't be so private and secret.' he thought he could make the relationship into something acceptable if I met her.

She was like his little daily vacation rental. I was the long term lease and she was the daily fun rental. Fortunately for us, he stopped it as soon as I found evidence of the level of contact and deceit.

Over the last couple of weeks, I have been able to describe to him the behaviors he routinely does within our family and marriage such that he is finally changing his behaviors. I am not really certain what it was about what I said or how I acted that was different from other times I have attempted to draw my boundaries, but this time, it seems pretty effective: He is remembering things better, he is taking ownership of the boys better, he seems to have marriage and family withing the forefront of his thoughts and actions better.

I am just concerned for you in that you are stuck at a point within discovery of the EA since the FOW is still around. You are continuing to have panic attacks and express it as anger. Your FWH seems to be continuing to 'lay low' and hope it blows over. I know that he has done some positive things and that he is attending to you and showing you he cares about you. But the evidence that he could have this sort of contact in his blackberry for you to find and then not even be able to problem solve it on his own shows that he is not protecting you from his assault on you and the marriage.

I know there is a lot of good that is going on in your marriage. I can tell that by what you write. But you are not being protected from the results of the EA--a long term EA. Your panic continues. Your panic results in anger outbursts and this just is not good for your marriage. How long can this continue? How long can the two of you take it? Is he just going to be a martyr forever about it? What does he have on his mind? How long does he think you will have emotional pain over this issue? Does he have some timeframe in his mind?--If I wait it out for five years, maybe she will be over it and I will be able to stay in this job??

I keep hoping that OW will leave her job. But so far that has not happened for you and him. Is she a good worker? Can't some carrot be found in another corporation...Can't her supervisor provide her with some sort of job opportunity in another company? This would not be that unusual: A contact in another company could be sought out and due to her competence, she could be lured away to another position. Is this scenario completely out of the question?

Again, if I remember the situation for you, this was a long term, slow building but in your face sort of EA that led up to the point where your FWH said, words to the effect of 'I think maybe I am supposed to be with her and not with you.' I think he is underestimating the damage from that situation.

Regards to you both,

Lake,
Do you live in my head?

Ok, let me address a few points. The email was initiated by John. He included H in this email as he is his boss and he had previously come to him for guidance regarding this particular work issue. He had to contact FOW because she and John were two of four workers who were fixing issues. At no time were any of the emails directly speaking to H. He was just a copy. But, I addressed the same thing regarding multiple emails and that he would have had to delete her emails since his address was in the recipient line. He says she was probably hitting 'reply all' and that is why he was included. He also said the reason no emails show up from her was because he has her email address blocked on his computer/work email. He does not have an email address other than the one for work. Also, he did not tell me of the emails because I was the first one to open all five. He gets approx 1200 emails in a three day time frame. He had spoken to John directly so he felt no need to open the emails, as they were simply back-up. So, I do understand this.

But, as far as FOW, she is very bold. So far, she has kept a low profile and has stayed away since February. The only contact indirectly was when H called her home on the Thursday before Easter and left her a messege telling her that under no circumstances should she attempt any communication over the Easter Holiday. She had an uncanny way of spoiling every holiday for an entire year. She even went after President's day. Apparently any time he had extended family time perturbed her.

So, his plan is to send a curt business like email on Monday that simply states "please remove me from any further email distribution lists." I don't know if this is the right thing to do or not. Maybe she does not even realize he was on the email. But, in reality I know she did. And, my fear is that if he does NOTHING, it will be a slight crack in the door and she will try to put in her foot. So, now we're left wondering what's the right thing to do.

As for a new job...she does not seem to be going anywhere, but neither of us knows first hand. H is looking for a new job, although not very agressively. He wanted a new job for the last 5 years but struggles with change and with uncertainty. He's worked for the same company for over 20 years and feels stuck. He has longevity which lends him job security. Circumstances keep him frozen in time. But, I know he'd be happier if he felt more appreciated and had more regular hours. He believes that no matter where he goes I will NEVER get over what he's done. I don't know...maybe I won't. But, I do believe time will fade the hurt and I'll look at him as H again and not as a betrayer. Hopefully this helped you to help me. It's Saturday and I'm hoping I get enought feedback and opinions to proceed on Monday. Today we have a family picnic to go to so the change of scenery will do us all good. And, it breaks the mood of yuckiness. thanks.

Oh, one more thing...
As for the fixing stuff. Yup, he expects me to help him figure that out. He thinks it's unfair that I have all these demands but no solution. He feels it important to act as a couple and to not just say "this is what you need to do" and not help him come up with a solution. Is this fair? Don't know...but I do know that part of the appeal to OW was that she "understood" his work related world. So, I try to be interested and understanding. I told him this morning that I know myself well enough to know that I don't have the physical or emotional strength to go through another indecisive year from him. He had to make a choice...me or her. And, by that I mean work. I cannot tolerate any form of communication between them...work, personal or otherwise.

Given what you describe, I suggest that someone else in the organization do the communication regarding this issue. I think that your H's "no contact" with her should be maintained.

So it depends on the situation: Ideally, your FWH should tell his subordinates that he wants no correspondence forwarded to him from FOW. This is a logical consequence of his EA. I think that it is not a good corporate practise to restrict correspondence. I think it is unusual that a manager needs to tell subordinates this sort of thing, and I think it puts your FWH at a disadvantage within his corporation. But again, these are the logical consequences of his actions.


Maybe others on this site will think that the curt business correspondence from your FWH to her is acceptable. One concern for me is that it will give her an opportunity to go to her boss or someone else and say, 'why?' 'I need to understand why I need to break the corporate protocol...Isn't this unfair to me, will this affect my personnel record?, etc' I think both methods put your H in a strange situation corporate-wise--but again, logical consequences of his actions. And--he does need to protect you and his marriage.


"He believes that no matter where he goes I will NEVER get over what he's done."

Does he really think this??? Does he say this? I think this is a very disrespectful perspective. Certainly the fact that he works with the OW is a substantial reason why you are not yet able to recover. Is he in that woe is me mode? You know, woe is me, but this is my lot in life. I don't really like my job, my wife feels I betrayed her and this has brought discord to my marriage, I can't do anything right to please her regarding my situation regarding my betrayal. Now my wife is all worked up again and I don't know how to deal with it, blah, blah, blah. I don't know if this is the deal, but you make it sound like this is the deal. It would be good if HE could come up with the solution to ensure "no contact" as best as possible in this poor situation where they still work together. Let him pick the solution and tell you about it. If you feel you can feel good about his solution, have him go with it. Let him take responsibility for decisions related to his work....Man up, so to speak.

Hi fiori!

Wow, I feel like such a dork ... I had no idea you had a thread over here!! Anyway, sorry for the late reply ... I have been out since early this morning. I hope that your weekend is going better.

After reading the details of the email exchange, specifically (1) that your husband never even opened the emails and (2) that it was John who added your husband to the distro not the OW, I honestly feel like your husband did nothing wrong. I also don't think it is a sign that the OW is trying to crack the door since it was John who added your husband and not the OW.

If the OW had taken him off the distro, that would be a major faux pas in the work environment because it would come off as an insult to John and to your husband and just plain look disrespectful. Everyone else on the email would wonder why she was trying to keep your husband out of the loop.

Asking your husband to send an email saying "don't cc me on this" could also look rather unprofessional... which I'm sure is why he did not do it in the first place. I give him a lot of credit for being willing to do this for you. It says more than I think you realize about how much he is willing to sacrifice for you. He is basically risking damaging his reputation which at work is your most valuable asset. His professional reputation is important because it enables him to be the breadwinner for your family. I know any mention of the OW hurts, but maybe you are cutting off your nose to spite your face here. Do you really want to cause your husband to be unprofessional just to make the point again that his EA hurt you? Do you think he really didn't get that already?

Today was an emotionally rough day for me ... I'm sure it's coloring my thoughts, but I'm pretty sure it is for the better rather than for the worse. My friend's sister passed away and today was the memorial service. She was only 34 and had been fighting cancer for the last 4 years very bravely. Life is short ... sometimes very short ... and so it is very important to enjoy the time we do have with our loved ones to the fullest. That loss will put in excruciating perspective the smallness of our petty irritations. Anyway, I'm feeling pretty tired now ... so I better log off. I'll check back in later ... now that I know where you are

Ga,
I hope you're right about him. I know he's a good man and this entire event was out of character for him...but it's done and now we have to deal with it. H is not happy where he is and has not been for several years. His company has been absorbed by a larger conglomerate and it's lost that small company feel. So, he's due for change anyway. This, the job, is one aspect of our recovery I've never insisted on. Yes, I insist they not work in the same company so I suppose I'm doing it indirectly, but he's the support system for our family and I don't feel it's my place to make that demand. I'm afraid that later down the line if the new job does not work out H will say to me "see, if you could have trusted me and I could have stayed where I was..." He's not a vindictive person so I doubt he'll say this, but you never know. Well, we have today to decide what to do. Maybe I should listen to the others and have him just let this one slide and see if she tries again. Does that seem reasonable? But, deep down inside, there's a part of me that is fearful that this has been going on all the time and he'll go to work tomorrow and say to OW "ha, we got away with it...we almost got caught but she finally caved...." Again, not sure this is his style, but I think out of my injured part of the brain.
Yesterday I copied my original question and the long posting Lake wrote back and gave it to him to read. I was asleep so I'm not sure what he thought. But, I do know that he came up around midnight to turn off my tv and he grabbed the paper...

I like Snuggle's response. Your H has to do whatever it takes to get you to trust him again and he is genuinely trying - even at the risk of his rep at work like Snugs said. Think of this in terms of weight. In the full picture of everything that is going on how much weight do you want this action to carry or have worth? How much is everything your husband been doing worth? Does it outweight what's happened here. This is how I had to look at my marriage. The MC made me think was 4-6 months of misguided direction worth bulldozing down (divorce) our 18 years of life we built together. The answer for me was no. Our relationship needed attention. It was easier for me because a coworker was not involved and my husband no longer goes to the gym or sees the OW from the gym. While your husband is looking for another job, give things that happen value and weigh it out. When a BS is in the fog of it, it is difficult to think clearly and see the potential versus the damage (at least that is how it was for me).

Snugs,
Sorry to hear about your friend's passing.

Thank you GA.



fiori, fear is a bad place to make decisions from. Fear is an instinct. It comes from a narrow part of our brains. It sees only black and white. If we make decisions based on fear, we are basically using only a small percentage of our brains. It's irrational. To get back to rational, we have to apply the rest of our brains which can see context, gray areas.

I think the rest of your brain is saying something like "he's not trying to get away with something. The emails were all work-related, not personal; he didn't even respond or read them; she didn't add him; John is just trying to keep his boss in the loop like the good employee he is." Like GA said, you have to weigh things properly and that includes what the fearful (my husband calls it lizard brain) part of you feels and what the rational part of you knows.

If you ever find yourself feeling fearful, take a deep breath, acknowledge the fear, then separate from it ... move away from it back to yourself ... your whole self ... then when you don't feel fearful anymore, do something (or not do as Yoda would say ... lol!).

Fiori,
In the basic steps at this site - one is undivided attention. Have you spent time alone with H (no house or kids?). Me and H started date nights but this week we will have a week to ourselves - both kids away at camp. Spending time together has helped us reconnect and for me - gain trust in H. You need time together, alone and away from house, kids, work.

From Harley article:
Basic Concept #4: The Policy of Undivided Attention

Unless you and your spouse schedule time each week for undivided attention, it will be impossible to meet each other's most important emotional needs. So to help you and your spouse clear space in your schedule for each other, I have written the Policy of Undivided Attention: Give your spouse your undivided attention a minimum of fifteen hours each week, using the time to meet the emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. This policy will help you avoid one of the most common mistakes in marriage -- neglecting each other.

This Basic Concept not only helps guarantee that you will meet each other's emotional needs, but it also unlocks the door to the use of all the other basic concepts. Without time for undivided attention you will not be able to avoid Love Busters and you will not be able to negotiate effectively. Time for undivided attention is the necessary ingredient for everything that's important in marriage.

I have to agree that you need to look at the WHOLE picture.

I keep thinking of this analogy...

When our oldest was born he spent ten weeks in the NICU. He would have what they called "As and Bs" which means that he would stop breathing and then his heart would stop beating. This horrible alarm would sound every time this started to happen and we would rub his chest, he would begin to breath again, and all would be well. Problem is, we lived in fear of this alarm. And it would go off all of the time when nothing was wrong. So we learned to quit watching the monitor and when the alarm would go off, we would LOOK at the baby. Was he breathing? Was he pink? Often, even though the alarm was going off, he was doing everything he should be doing.

I think you need to start LOOKING at your H and quit listening to the "alarms." Yes, if the alarm goes off (i.e. you feel a gut instinct or see a red flag) you need to investigate, but keep LOOKING at your H for signals. Is he doing the right things? Is he acting wayward or is he acting committed? Listen to the things you can see with your own eyes...his actions are showing you that even though the alarm is going off, everything is ok.

This is something that I have had to do with my H and it really has helped me to stay in touch with reality. Fear is overpowering. Those alarms will go off to the point that everything becomes an alarm. Don't let that happen.

HTM

Well, I've thought about this...
Do you know I can honestly tell you what I feel he's telling me is that he's lazy. Yup, I'm being honest. I really think he thinks he's doing everything he can to quell my fears and make me feel loved and cherished. But, bottom line, he's not. I have been very, very exact in telling him what I need from him. There's no grey area at all. I don't feel special, I don't feel cherished. So, now what? Yes, I believe he loves me. But, right now he's not fully concentrating on what really needs to be done to fix US. We're in the midst of a kitchen renovation...paying cash for all, it's tuition time and he's absolutely besieged at work with lots of deadlines and very little appreciation. Then, add to that, stress at home because the pesty wife feels like she's standing on a fault line and it's a recipe for disaster. I just feel like I need a break. Is it wrong to ask him to step up to the plate and do a little extra to help me get through these tough times. It's probably not fair to expect him to fix me, but is it fair to expect me to do it alone? That's it, I feel lonely. He seems too distracted and too busy right now to give us the time we require. So, while I've always felt like I was second to his job, now I feel like I'm third. I know, as I say this it seems like whining. And, maybe I am and it will pass. But, I know that tomorrow he goes off to work, a place where he used his 'friendship' to break my heart. A place where this human he aligned himself with still dwells. Yuck. I look over to the left of my screen on the computer and there is a new post called "How do I win her back!!"...Boy, I wish my H had those thoughts. I really don't believe he thinks he needs to win me back. I think he thinks that simply by being here it's enough. He says he does not expect me to change. But, by choosing another woman, didn't he essentially tell me I was not good enough? He says one has nothing to do with the other...I think not! It's just a dark day for me. I know I have to call my gyn doc because I've picked up on a trend. There must be a birth control pill that does not have such detrimental effects to my psyche the same week each month. It's like clockwork! But, this is not an excuse. I feel very out of control and sad. I'm almost afraid to really be happy. I know my husband well enough to know that if I seem happy he's going to think I'm all better and then he'll revert back to his work emersed non cherishing husband. I often wonder if it was always like this and I never noticed before. I know I've always craved more kissing and we've discussed this the entire time we have been married. But, have I always missed something but felt it was not reason enough to complain? Now the lines are blurred from pre EA to post EA. I really can't always see the line any more. Too bad for me! Perhaps tomorrow will give me better results.

Is there anything that always gives you a good feeling? Rock music, Rap perhaps. Buy yourself some flowers, if that's your thing? How about buying yourself that 1,000,000 calories ice cream that you usually avoid?

{{{fiori}}}

Sorry to hear you're feeling down in the dumps today. I like TrustDoe's suggestions for self-soothing. The music one is a really good one (no guilt afterwards like from a chocolate binge). There are songs that I will play LOUD and sing along and after three or four turns I feel feisty again. This is totally unladylike, but there is one song called "Rockin' the Suburbs" by Ben Folds in which he drops the F-bomb that always works for me (of course I only do this alone in my car ... LOL...shhhhh, don't tell anyone!). Maybe we should make you a mix CD !

Quick question ... you said that you have been very, very exact about telling your husband what you need from him. What was it you asked him to do?

Well, for me, it's Tom Petty. Usually 'breakdown' or American Girl. I'll give that a whirl tomorrow when I'm in the car. Also, another guilty pleasure is Dairy Queen vanilla in a cone. Just plain vanilla. We always joke here. Sometimes my family will get together and we think of our last meal if we were ever wrongly accused and on death row. Mine would be vanilla ice cream with wet walnuts and a small dab of hot fudge. No steak, no lobster...just the ice cream!

Now, as for what I've asked for. Well, I want him to touch me when he walks by. I want him to look me in the eye and just smile. I want him to kiss me without requiring it to go somewhere else! I want him to write me a quite note once in a while to let me know he's thinking of me. And, probably the hardest thing and perhaps the most selfish and indulgent...I want him to renounce OW. Yes, I know...I'm a jerk for asking. But, she put me through holy hell and he's never really held her accountable for it. He's accountable for his part, but not hers. She stalked our family. She called multiple times a night. She flirted with him openly in front of our children. She repeatedly tried to coax him into lying to me and going out to dinner after work. She ambushed my mother in law at her home and tried to get her to talk her son into leaving me & the kids and going with her. Wouldn't this be a person he should at least strongly dislike? I need to hear him say something horrible about her -- God knows he's heard me say a few.
I'm sure I've got the focus all wrong, but it's really what I wish for. He seems so down. I worry that it's because he regrets his decision to be here. He says not, but he's not very convincing. Would it be too much to put a little more effort into us? If he gave me 1/2 the energy he gives his job I'd be a lucky girl. So, I cry a river like a whiner. I bought a great homemade apple pie today...maybe I deserve a slice!

fi,
I hate that he was on the emails, yuck! That makes it feel like you have to relive EVERYTHING all over again. If I read right though, it was his staff member that put him on the cc, right?

He needs to let that staff member know that he does not want to be on the emails EVER again. It was a positive sign that he did not open them, but it does violate your boundary and does need to be addressed.

I was pleased to hear that he has her blocked on his email. That should mean that he never has to see any "reply all" that she may have done to the group distribution list on that email. So in essence, only your FWH's name has shown up on the same email as hers. Nothing else!!

Remember that and remember that you are still in control, not her. This just helped identify another way to tighten down your boundary lines. And it's another display to your FWH that he does need to find another job. You have done well by being strong while he still works there. That's asking alot from you.

As much as it hurts, try not to let it undo everything that has been done. I know, easier said than done.

Dogo sometimes seems like he's stuck in the "what do you want me to do next" mode. It drives me crazy because I think it should be easy to map out a plan and stick to it.

The VERY best thing that you can do is find some things that you can do for YOURSELF! I like the CD idea. Music helps me SO much. I listen to certain songs by Mariah Carey or Christina Aguilar or Celine Dion, etc. that make me feel better as a WOMAN.

Think of some other things that you can do for you. Have you tried Yoga? Find some books that are about healing, like the Radical Forgiveness one that I told you about.

Light candles and incense. Burn out through light and scent all the energy of your pain from each room. Do something different to each room that you have spent time in thinking about the DRH. Reclaim your space and your husband.

Don't worry so much about his actions being perfect AS LONG AS he is following through on all of your NC boundaries and has a STRONG desire for Recovery. Lead him down the Recovery path with you. He probably doesn't even have a clue on what to do to make this up to you, even if you have spelled it out.

This bumps are hard. It makes complete sense how you feel beat down again. Acknowledge it, get yourself back up and do what you do best.

Love yourself!!! We love ya!

I was posting at the same time as you, I just read what you said.

I know that exact feeling. When I asked FWH the other night about what she looked like, you saw how bad that made me feel. It took me SEVERAL days to get over it. Finally, he said something to me like..."you're upset because I didn't say that she was dumpy, old, wrinkled, etc. and you shouldn't even be comparing yourself to her." I have to tell ya, even if he was trying to justify what he had said, it made me smile to see the words, dumpy, old and wrinkled in the same sentence with her name. I know, I'm twisted, but it made happy. LOL!

You're doing great girl. You have every right to be upset, but you also have every to claim what is yours!!

I'm heading to Girls Camp leaving tomorrow (Mon) and coming home on Saturday. It will be the FIRST time that FWH and I have not at least spoken to one another. (no cell reception) And we have spent very few nights apart in 7 years. This is a huge test for both of us. But mostly for ME because I want to have enough personal power to enjoy myself and not let any thoughts of the Infidelity ruin that for me! I see it as a very empowering experience for the WOMAN in me.

That's been my new focus....being a better me, for me.

Hang in there girlfriend!

Fiori,
Maybe I missed this in an earlier post. What was the need that the dumpy red head filled for him? He had a need to go outside the M for EA. I'm curious because if he appears not to be as aggressive for recovery as you expect then does he truly know his triggers or are his needs being met now in the M that he is confident he would not go outside the M? I expected my H to go at the same pace as me but the MC told me I should not expect that. I had to let him go at his own pace. One of my problems was that I was always the fix everything person. I had to step back and let my H and kids learn and fix their own problems. They need to go through their own emotions at their own pace - you can't determine someone elses emotions or what they are destined to go through to get to where they need to be. After a while it is very draining trying to be the glue that holds everything together. You are going to come undone at the seams - breathe, take a deep breath and weigh everything out.

Of course you deserve a slice !! I hope you are having one right now ... hee, hee!

Well the main problem I see with your very specific list of needs is that it is kinda long. I don't know about your husband, but my husband would not be able to change all those behaviors at once. Heck, I probably would have a hard time juggling all that myself if the shoe were on the other foot, so not a slam on men at all. Would you be open to just giving him one thing on the list to work on? Then when that thing becomes a habit, adding a new behavior?

I find this statement odd:


Why are you being a jerk to your husband? You want him to increase his lovingness towards you. How does this help? Do you think this might contribute to him feeling down? When you say that he is not very convincing, isn't this a disrespectful judgment of him? I'm not sure, but I am concerned that you might be creating artificial obstacles for your husband as a way to get him to put in more effort or to test his level of effort.

By the way, where does domestic support rank on your hierarchy of emotional needs?

Domestic support? Do you mean from H? I have absolutely no need there. We work great as a team. MOstly I take care of household stuff because I'm a sahm, but he's great with help. He helps me any way he can, as long as he's got the time. But, I can honestly say, I never struggle with this issue.

As for the list of items. I see what you mean. I suppose to me, the grouping of ways he can show me love are all lumped together. These types of things come very easily to me and I find it odd that he cannot think to do them. Again, he's not me...I have to remember that.

As far as renouncing OW. I suppose I have a need to hear him say she was a mistake. NOt because he messed with my security, but because she's a sneaky, selfish person who intentionally tried to tear our family down. Don't you eventually get angry with a person who was part of family destruction? I think he really thinks she's a nice girl who simply got 'caught up'. I strongly disagree. She's not nice, she did lots of things with cruel intent. How hard would it be to just tell me once or twice that he regrets it? Yup, he says he's sorry and he regrets the hurt he caused. But, does he regret meeting her? Does he regret lying or simply that he got caught? There is such a blurred line here so I'm confused. And, in reality, does it really matter what he thinks? Maybe if I thought he had yucky thoughts about her I would feel more secure that he'd not rekindle anything with her considering they still work for the same company. I really need him to be away from her.

I didn't have time to read this entire thread but I just wanted to chime in since my situation seems similar to yours.

I want to warn you that my H lied to me repeatedly and told me his A was only an EA with a coworker after I discovered some emails. Even though I was devastated just by the EA, I trusted what he said and he continued to work with her. He told me they had ended it and he was not talking to her. Well, after several months of being lied to I uncovered the full truth, that it was not only an EA but it was also a PA and the emotional part of it was much more extensive than he told me initially. He was acting more connected to me but he was still in contact with her and it wasn't until all contact ended and ALL of the secrets were out that true recovery could happen between us.

I was allowing him to continue in his job for the same reasons you are. He had worked his way up the ladder and had several promising projects in the works. After my discovery of the truth, there was no way he could continue working there. FWH found a new job that pays better, and he works on projects he finds more interesting and rewarding. Change is scary but often it brings about better opportunities.

Yes, I agree with you...the change will most likely be a good thing. We will go on vacation next week for ten days and I hope that during that time we can talk about what the next step is for him and new employment. He knows this is exactly what he wants/needs but is paralyzed by the idea of it.

As for this being a pa...I seriously doubt it got to that point. I do believe I know him well enough to tell that. And, he met with our deacon at church and then the deacon and I talked. We also did MC in the beginning. He had ample time to clear things up, if needed. And, add the fact that ow went to my mother in law for several hours one night and dumped everything on her. My mother in law assures me that it never went to that point. And, H tells me that if it came to that point he would have left first. I'll check in later...tell me your story.

I think it's a challenge to expect your H to regret meeting OW. I have the same problem with my H...only he was brutally honest and said that he doesn't regret the A!!! That was a tough one for me to handle.

He and I talked at length about it. He is remorseful and regrets the pain that the A created, but he doesn't regret the actions he took in his life. WOW. When I think back on my life, even the things that I did that I am not proud of, I can honestly say I do not regret them because they have given me the perspective I have now. I guess that is what my H is saying...the A created a part of him that he would not want to lose (hopefully it's the part that decided he really wanted to connect with me).

With that said, I do expect that at some point he will apologize for the pain that he caused me...but he will never regret the A, nor will he apologize for the A itself. It's hard to accept (and maybe it's just semantics), but I have come to realize that for me it's enough that he regrets the pain.

I tend to agree with Snuggle on the point of obstacles. I worry that you are creating obstacles in the recovery by how you approach things with him and what you expect of him. I don't think he should have a free ride, but I think that you need to look at the things that he IS doing and make sure you are acknowledging those things.

Our MC gave a great analogy...he said if you start a new sport (i.e. loving your W the way you should have been to begin with) and you don't know what you are doing, you will try hard at first. You probably won't do a great job just because you don't really have the skills yet. If your coach is a good coach (i.e. you), she will applaud your effort and try to fine tune your skills without discouraging you too much. You'll be encouraged to work harder and as you practice, you will get better. But if you have a bad coach, she will berate you for the things you can't do and you will have less and less interest in playing the game at all until you finally quit.

Be a good coach! Applaud the effort and fine tune his skills without discouraging him too much. He wants to play well...

HTM

Crap...why do I always have to do all the stuff I'm really bad at?????

Ok, I see your point. I will have the idea tatoo'd on the insides of my eyelids so I know it and remember it always.

So, basically, what you're saying is....help him to help me?! It sounds a bit crazy and hard for me to do. I think genetically I'm just a nasty person. I worry about that. I don't really think I'm nasty, but things come out of me that I feel like I sometimes cannot control. I look at myself and think "who are you?" I believe I do need some type of professional help to get over my anger. I have never, in my life, felt such a strong pull of emotions. Very bizarre. Anyway, today he and I are good. He's back at work, which disturbs me alot. But, I cannot fix that...not today. I really have to find an outlet for all of this crazy emotion. And, knowing part of it is revolving around a three week cycle is driving me nuts. I really have to see about getting this prescription changed for bcp.

I agree that fiore needs to acknowledge the things that her H is doing to improve the marriage and relationship. However, I think that it is a very big deal that FWH continues to work in the same company as FOW.

Does anyone else who is advising her have a similar situation?

The long term posters on this site state that it is a bottom line, basic necessity that all contact be ended and that OPs be removed from the marriage entirely. Some couples have moved out of State to be situated away from the OP.

I suspect that there are long term posters on this site who have stopped posting to fiore because she and her FWH have not implemented this aspect of Marriage Builders. I am not saying that fiore and her FWH should up and move with no prospects of financial security. But I do think that fiore will continue to trigger and have panic attacks as long as FWH continues to work with OW.

I worry about this for fiore. She indicates she can tend to be an emotional person, she has difficulty holding her tongue when she feels something needs to be said. She sounds like a person who is very vested into the marriage, but still very angry about the assault of the A. Add to this the fact that OW is still in the picture. This sounds like a recipe for an unhappy marriage.

I am concerned that FWH is not taking this aspect of the recovery seriously. If he really wants a different job, wouldn't this be the catalyst to get that resume out there and use the head hunter he has a good relationship with?

I just worry that both fiore and FWH are frozen into a bad set of interactions. I hear everyone who is trying to support her and is encouraging her to be positive and look at the good aspects of her relationship. But how many of you still have OW in your marriage?

I don't mean to be rude or negative. I am just concerned and want fiore and FWH to re-build their marriage. I know everyone else who is corresponding with her also wants that. I just think this fact that OW and FWH still work together (albeit with contact reduced to an almost minimum--he still sees her name, he knows what is happening to her job-wise, probably still sees her car from time to time, etc.) is a great barrier to recovery.

What say all?

I definitely agree that Fiori is going to continue to trigger as long as her H is in the vicinity of OW. And I think that both fiori and her H know this.

Reality is just that it takes time to find a new job. Fiori's H is looking, but maybe not as actively as he could. He did make sure that OW was transferred to another building...but he can't just quit cos he's the breadwinner and someone has to be able to bring in the money for their family.

While I think that it will be much harder for her to move past this while H works there, I think that they are both trying to address it as best they can while H looks for work elsewhere. Maybe he needs to be nudged harder to get it done.

HTM

Lake, I think your post is spot on.

Fiori, have you ever read my first thread? some of the best posters here basically didn't post anything other to me than "they cannot work together" when I first got here. and they explained why. you can read it here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...in=146544&Number=1958883#Post1958883

Your posts very much remind me of my feelings very early in Recovery...panic, fear, stress, obsessing over the OW. Now that I have been to the "other side"...and the anxiety and fear have calmed down considerably...ANY contact AT ALL between my H and FOW would be a deal-breaker for me.

I don't think you would be out of line AT ALL in letting your H know it is a boundary of yours that he find another job. I don't know if I hadn't made it a boundary of mine...if my H would have been so quick to leave either.

Even if you don't think your H is at risk for reigniting the A, you are in a terrible position of trying to stay calm and not LB daily. How can a BS be calm when their F?WS is working with their OP???

I am also not trying to be negative or make you feel bad about your place in R...I am very concerned about you being stuck in this place long-term. Take care of yourself.

You know, this kind of irritates me a bit. I am the one here on MB because I am trying to learn some valuable tools to help heal my marriage after a Ea at my husband's work. Yes, she still works for the same company, yes it is a real sticking point for me. But, choices were made. H is here with me, although it can be difficult at times. Not because we have a bad marriage, but because I can't get past the fear and the insecurity. So, there's nothing I can do about him working for the same corporation. He's there. He will be there for at least a few more months. He will get a new job...this has always been part of the plan. The problems arise with money, security, benefits...I do not believe my marriage is about to end. But, I also do not believe I have a comfort level that has me insisting he change jobs immediately. Yes, I understand the concepts, but they have to be applied in a real life situation. If we were independently wealthy he would have been out of there months ago. But, bottom line...we're not. Once, a few months ago, someone on here suggested we go cold turkey, quit and move to another state. Is this really reasonable? I'm offended that it's implied that people will not help ME simply because OW and H still get a paycheck from the same company. This does not ALWAYS mean they are in denial and still having an affair. I got duped once, but not again. Please, if you have valid stuff to offer me, don't hold out because of this. I can only do what I can do!

"So, there's nothing I can do about him working for the same corporation. He's there. He will be there for at least a few more months. He will get a new job...this has always been part of the plan. The problems arise with money, security, benefits..."

How much effort is he putting into finding a new job, with equal (or better) pay and benefits ASAP?

If he got laid off tomorrow from this job that it's supposedly out of the question for him to quit now, what would he do?

What makes you think he will quit the job in three months?

It is not uncommon for a WS to claim they would be willing to quit their job to protect their marriage, but not really mean it.

And it is VERY common for the adultery to start up again if they continue to work together.

There is a reason you're so afraid, a valid reason, because as long as they work together, your marriage is in danger.

Please don't assume that if you keep quiet and let him keep working there that in any way earns you any respect, he''l appreciate it, or that it will even be effective at avoiding conflict. You're gambling with a VERY hefty bargaining chip here and he won't feel any obligation at all to acknowledge your concesson when his continued contact with the OW at work reignites his passion for her. It's not like he's signed legally binding contract that states you are granted certain guarantees for making such a huge concession.

It is entirely possible and probable (BECAUSE they still work together) that he will get back together with the OW and divorce you anyway, even though you tried so hard not to anger him.

We don't want to see that happen to yet another poster...

This is what concerns me. Why is he paralyzed by the idea? Could it be loss of connection with OW?

I know you're irritated by the posts here telling you that he needs to leave his job. Can I tell you, I was EXACTLY like you? I trusted completely that it had ended. Unfortunately for me and countless others, it was a lie. I was lied to until I was able to expose the entire truth. He could not completely end his connection to her until he was away from her. His behavior sounds suspicious, and you sound too trusting.

fiori,

I don't think there are people here who think they could help you but are refusing to help you. I just think that there are people on here who feel so strongly about the need for "no contact" that they move on to help other posters when they note that a poster is making a decision to forego or postpone "no contact."

fiori, you strike me as a very forthright person. You come here and state how you are feeling. I hear your panic and i just get concerned that the panic is affecting your ability to Plan A, not just for your marriage but also for yourself. To me, Plan A is not just for the marriage, but it is also to make you the person that you Want to be, regardless of the marriage. It just seems like it would difficult to get over the affair and be the best person you can be while you are frequently upset and thinking about drh.

I know it has been hard enough for me to get over a 3-4 Week EA and we achieved "no contact" at 4 weeks after the whole thing started.

When I hear you talk on your thread, I hear myself to some extent. I can't imagine trying to do what you are trying to do. I would be panicing and LBing all over the place.

I just felt this needed to be said. I did not mean to imply that people on here will not help you because OW and H still get a paycheck from the same company. I just think some people believe in the need for "no contact" so strongly that they simply move on to the large numbers of other people on the site who have not yet heard of all of the Marriage Builders principals.

I don't think your FWH is still having an affair, I just think the fact that there is not No Contact makes it difficult for the two of you to get past the A and move on to recovery.

I don't mean to irritate you, you have enough irritants in your life as it is.

thisbitterpill,
I think you are hearing it and feeling it very much like I am. fiori, we only want the best for you and FWH.

Trust me...both he and I know he needs to leave his job. This has been something he has talked about for about the past 3 years. My only regret is that he did not do it before this all occurred.

But, here's a little history on his job situation. H began working right out of college for his father and a family business. This felt wrong to him so he took it upon himself to get a job in the city. He started out at a very entry level position and has managed, over 20 years, to work his way up to Vice President of the dept. He has not been happy since his very family friendly and employee friendly company was absorbed by a large conglomerate about 4 years ago. But, out of loyalty to many people who have worked for him for years, he has stayed. He's really regretting his decision to stay.
For the past 11 years he has worked in some capacity with Ow and her husband. They have been in different dept's and buildings as they are now. Just last year, her husband left her. Because another manager quit, H was given her dept. as his new jurisdiction. Only two months after he aquired this group, her H left for another man. She came into H's office and boo-hooe'd her way into his mind/heart. This is when he brought her here thinking that I'd be able to help her pattern through this troublesome time. He was nervous about his feelings then...I think. Anyway, I picked up on her brazen flirting right away. And, the rest is history. The Ea began in May of 07 and ended in October of 07. But, she continued to persue him until February...then she had a family death. His non-appearance at the funeral stopped her persuit.
So, now they revert back to the way it was prior to the other manager quitting and her husband leaving. He does not share a building. He can go 2 months never seeing her face. She lives in another state so there is no car seeing or train sharing.
At this point all I can do is take it day to day. I can hope and pray that he leaves soon. I have cut/pasted this series of postings to him and his simple response was...
"I will work on it every night until I have found new employment. Please don't worry...I promise you, this is happening." So, do I beleive you guys or him? I don't know...but I can hope all this works out to our benefit.
So, if you have a way to help me, please do. Don't hold it against me that his paycheck and hers are signed by the same corporation.

Thanks Lake.
But, what exactly constitutes No contact? If there are no meetings, no sightings, no phone calls, no talks...
There's nothing. He probably would not have even known about the emails last week if not for me opening them. He knew they were from John and knew he had already spoken directly to John about the problem.

I dont' know. It probably seems like I'm back peddling and making excuses. No one understands the need for him to be at another company more than I do. But, honestly, she's a bit nuts. And, working in the financial industry...I fear she's going to go to the new company he goes to just out of spite. Then what? Well, I'll cross that bridge if it ever comes to pass. Wish me luck.

I did cut/paste what you wrote both over the weekend and today. You've been a good source of conversation for us. He needs to see that folks here are not bashing him but can also offer support to me without putting him out to pasture. He did feel you were slightly tilted towards my benefit, but he totally expected that. So, thanks. I'm no longer irritated. That was a first reaction and I'm glad HTM stepped in to lend me support.

Here are my questions. Since they work together, it would be and should be very easy for her to get his work phone number, right? If she started calling him and boo-hooe'd into his mind/heart again, would you find out? The first time when she call and if those feelings for her come back, is there a possibility that he might not disclose the first call to you for fear of upsetting you? Or he would think that he can handle it or feel bad for her, and thus not make a big deal out of it by disclosing it to you? After the first call, is it possible that she would do a second and third call few days later? After some boo-hooeing and flirting and they decide to go out to lunch, would you know? After few lunches and some more flirting, if they decide to spend some time at a local motel, would you be able to track it and find out?

The question is, what are you and him willing to do to stop this ticking bomb before it goes off?

I think what some are saying is that there is this risk and possibility out there that things will go wrong and possibly end your marriage or damage it greatly if they are still working at the same place.

You are doing ok. I know I am not really qualified to tell you this, but it sounded like you needed to hear it. You are ok.

Don't worry about the radical, fantasy-based ideals. Focus on the advice that fits with YOUR life. You and I have talked about that before.

I think the main thing that I hear from people is that they are concerned that you will not be able to let go of the fear until OW is completely out of your H's realm. And while I know where you are at...I think on some level, people here are right.

I was thinking about it today. How would my recovery be if H still worked nights with OW? What if OW worked in a different section of the hospital but H was there at the same time as she? I don't know if I could get past it either. It isn't so much about what your H is doing (or not doing), it is more about how easily your imagination will run wild with the possibilities. I have enough trouble with crazy imagined rendez-vous between my H and OW and they live 1000 miles away from each other now.

I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe you aren't the culprit for not being able to get past this yet. Maybe some of it is the circumstances. Maybe it isn't realistic for you to be able to get past this until your H can put more distance between him and OW. And I know that H is working to that end, but maybe you just need to share with him that it may be the only thing that helps you past this hurdle. While I think it's unreasonable for your H to quit, I don't think it's unreasonable for him to understand that you are triggering because she is still in the vicinity of him on a daily basis.

Remember, be a careful consumer. You need to fit the advice into YOUR life, not the other way around. The people here mean well and I think they are often motivated by the right things (the desire to help people recover and avoid pain), but it can sometimes lead you to question even the things that are going ok.

HTM

I agree that there need to be EPs in place, but I don't know that it is helpful to encourage Fiori to believe that her H will re-ignite his EA. I understand that it is VERY possible, VERY easy, and VERY likely if they have contact, but at this point, he is making every effort to avoid contact.

I do think that the point you make about whether or not her H would tell is an important one. Fiori does need to make sure that she is creating an environment where her H is not afraid to tell her if OW contacts him. I'm not sure if that environment is being fostered right now.

I think you, Fiori, need to work on a positive communication relationship with your H where you both feel like you're on the same team, fighting the same battle...the one to keep your M safe. If you can create that environment, then if OW contacts your H, you will know he will tell you because he is there with you in recovery.

HTM

Fiori...I have a question. Could you write up a list of the things that you are doing to promote your recovery and the things that your H is doing to promote your recovery? Make it very factual and ONLY the positive stuff (phrase it positively, like instead of "He isn't talking to OW" say "He is enforcing No Contact").

The reason I ask, is that I wonder if we have a clear picture of what is going on in your M. I wonder if you write it down...it may be easier to see where the holes are in the plan.

HTM

I agree. This is a big hurdle for me. I know I run a huge risk of flipping out if I find out she contacts him in any way. I have this feisty Italian side that is great in some scenarios...but not this one!

I appreciate everyone's concern. Lately, as in Friday, when H and I have these problems with communication, we do an all day exchange through email. This helped us on Friday tremendously because we were both able to say what we wanted without getting interrupted. Yesterday did not go as well. We began a conversation and then he criticized me for being smug. I asked what he was talking about and he said it was the way I was holding my had to my face. Ok...what's that? Anyway, I know it's just raw emotion. We will not totally be able to get through this until H finds a new job...this I know for a fact! I promise...it's in the works.

I will be surprised if he is the one who make the initial contact with her after all this. But, since she was the one who's persuing him, I would not be surprised at all if she starts something again. It would not be uncommon if the OP make contact and a WS not disclosing it to the BS for many reasons. That's when thing can go downhill from there, and sometimes, very fast.

I think you've been around long enough to know how things can turn 180 degree very quickly and all behind it can be just one phone call or one email.

Since they work for the same corp. and there is the potential at any moment (even though it occurs only every 2 months or so) that he can see her face, there is still contact in that she is still very much in the vicinity.

Would your FWH tell you if he saw her in the building in the hallway, or saw her name on a brochure, or a directory, etc? I think HTM describes this concern well. I don't remember her exact words, but she said something about trust and your ability to communicate with each other.

Her suggestion for a list is also very helpful. Others encouraged me to make a list of the good things my FWH was doing to re-build the marriage.

Again, I am only bringing all of this up because I don't know how I would be able to do what you are trying to do. HTM does provide good support to keep up those positive behaviors and keep recognizing the positive. Maybe we are a good cop--bad cop team .

Does that mean I have to buy the doughnuts?


HTM

Hick,


I couldn't have said it better.

If Fiori's H starts a new job what's not to stop Fiori from panicking that some other women will boohoo her way to him. Recovery is getting to a point where you have to trust again and things are put in place to protect against triggers that would cause H to go outside M. Her H should get another job but they need to work on Hick quote above, nurturing and keeping the M safe now.

Ga

I'd rather have a bagel.

Hi fiori! How was your Monday? Mine was CRAZY!! But not in a bad way, just super busy. So, wow, this area of MB is really active. I don't know if I can keep up ... LOL! I'm used to posting once a day and only needing to read 1-3 posts to be caught up.

Anyway, I am sure that the ppl who are uber concerned about no contact are only trying to help, but it seems to me like they are projecting their own experiences onto your situation rather than looking objectively at it, so I hope they have not gotten you too riled. You know I am very familiar with what happened and so I feel somewhat qualified to say your situation is pretty unique around here.

You know what, I totally mixed up domestic support and financial support. I meant to ask you where you rank financial support. The reason being that you were lamenting your husband putting his job first and you second (or sometimes third). So I was wondering if your husband might feel that being financially stable was a way of putting you first. For example, if he were single w/ no family, would he still choose to be a corporate drone? Or, like my husband, would he be more likely to pursue a "crazier" career as a writer or musician or not even pursue a career and be a surf/ski bum? Before we got married, I was worried that my husband would spend too much time on his career, but recently I realized that he does that in part because of how he defines being a good husband for himself, which is that he be a good breadwinner. Yes, he also enjoys being successful and likes the self-esteem that comes with it. But on tough days, I know he is wistful about chucking it all. Well, this was just a really long winded way of saying, don't put yourself in competition with your husband's job. He doesn't love his job like he loves you. For most people the job is a means to an end ... he loves that it gives him the ability to provide for you and your children. He loves you period.

Finally, I want to challenge you. The Dalai Lama says that when you meet someone who angers you, you should stop and thank them because they give you an opportunity to make yourself better by practicing forgiveness, humility, compassion, etc. This is an opportunity that (hopefully) comes along only rarely so in that sense it is really a precious gift. Maybe not the one they were hoping to give you ... LOL, but one that is there if you open your heart and mind. I know it is possible for you to let go of your anger. I know it is possible for you to do this right now even before your husband finds a new job. Not easy to do, but completely within your grasp if you choose it.

Lake,
The statement I made about 'two months' was not literal. TO my knowledge, he has not seen her since February. They do not have to work on any projects together and he's been steering clear of her half of the building prior to being put across the street. And, we have a signal that we use. When we're putting away dinner dishes or watching tv at night he'll simply state "no alien sightings today". This, I know, is whether or not he's had any contact, visual or otherwise, with OW. He believes she's moved on. I'd like proof of that. I'd love to hear, through the grapevine, that she has met a new man (single one) and is concentrating on bettering herself. Hey, maybe that's the case...but I'll probably never know.

So, today is a not so good day for me. I'm wondering, though, if it's because I'm having ideas poured into my head here. I'm not saying you guys don't have the best intentions, but sometimes it's a bit like brain overload.

My cousin is having major surgery today. He had a freak accident in December and has had a large chunk of his skull in storage until he brain un-swells. So, today is the big day to restore his skull. Perhaps this will be my focus today...not anything relating to my junk. I just feel such a sense of sadness....I have to find a way to kick it. I believe a few hours at the pool will help. A little sun & fun to shake my cobwebs away.

This is the goal. I am trying to nurture good communication, but I feel that right now I am ill equipped to do so. I don't feel like I'm in control of anything right now. I feel H has all the cards and I'm simply playing along by following his rules. No, he's not stated any directly, but it's simply how I feel. He chose her, he re-chose me, he is at his job, he chooses to get a new job, he chooses not to...you see the pattern? What choices do I have? My heart is aching right now. But, do I kick him to the curb because I'm suspicious? Do I take the chance that I'm a certifiable nut job and I've alientated him because I can't get a grip on my fear? Then, what does that leave me with? Today, I just cannot think about it....I must change my scenery.

{{{{fiori}}}}

Sorry you are feeling so down today. A change of scenery sounds like a good idea. If the scenery involves fluffy spa bathrobes and a cute Swedish masseur, count me in LOL!



Choose not to be fearful and angry anymore. If you like reading, check out Viktor Frankle's book "Man's Search for Meaning." It will remind you how much control you still have even when someone else completely dictates your physical world.

Snuggle,
Thanks. The change of scenery included a beach chair, the pool, some fresh air & sunshine and my 13yr. old playing "go fish" with me. Perfection.

That sounds like a wonderful way to spend the day! I am smiling just thinking of you soaking up the rays and playing cards.

Sure beats my day of chasing down IT, breaking in a new boss and laying in the dentist's chair ... LOL!

How are you? I'm sorry I missed you yesterday. I don't know what I was doing and by the time I saw you had called, it was too late to call back.

I hope your evening went ok. I will call you today.

HTM

I'm fine...just frustrated. H is going away for disaster recover drill this weekend. First, the fact that he's expected to go away over a weekend is stupid to me. But, I'm not in the corporate world and things have to be done when the system is not up and running with weekday work. That I do get. BUt, last night at dinner I said to him..."so, do you go anywhere near the NorthEast extension on your way home? If so, you can pick up older son from his friends house who lives 55 minutes away and save me a trip". He quizically looks at me and states "what are you talking about? I'm not coming back til Monday. Don't you remember 2 1/2 years ago when I did this drill and had an accident on the way home? I told you then I'd never do that again." Oh, I see...that clears it up! NOT!! So, I was supposed to simply KNOW that because his ridiculous company expected him to be awake from Friday morning til Sunday at 4 pm that this would automatically give him leeway to sleep at the hotel they have provided and come home Monday. Why would I even remember that from over two years ago. He simply thinks I should. So, I posed a question to him. I said "I've been to NY three times in the last ten years on a bus trip with the local church. Can you please tell me what shows I saw and where we ate dinner and who I was with?" He stated that he could not remember any of those details. So, then why am I expected to remember the details of what he does the few times in ten years he's gone to NY. Bizarre and very one way. But, this is constantly the way he is with his job. Not just since the EA, since I've known him. He thinks that because he's always been this way then I should give him some slack. I believe, he lost slack the night he first lied to me and spent time with OW. Am I wrong? Yes, his behavior is the same, but the circumstances are different. I never had any reason before to doubt him. I was soooooo cocky and never thought he'd do this to me!! To Us!! This scenario in our marriage was inconceivable. But, here I sit, scared about him going away. Not because I think he'll do anything wrong. But, because he still works at the same corporation. And, they have a policy at his company where they post where everyone is on a daily basis. So, if H takes a personal day off the board will read "John Smith -- PTO"
I believe this is bizarre too! Who's business is it where he or anyone is? But, if he's in training in conference room #3, it will read "john smith -- conference room #3...training". So, with access to this board OW has access of knowledge. Just stop now!!! I can see the typing soaring to an all time speed. I KNOW he cannot work there any longer. He KNOWS he cannot work there any longer. Not only do I have a verbal promise but one that is recorded on my cell phone.
So, I'm getting off topic. This weekend is frustrating to me. Not because I believe he'll do anything other than the drill, but the fact that she will know (potentially) where he is and may try to make contact. Hatred. Frustration. Anger. Sadness. But, glad to have a night out with my friend away from her toddlers and have a cold glass of wine and some adult conversation.

Hi Fiori,
What's H plan if OW tries to make contact while away? I know it must be painful knowing he still at the company and she still has access. I don't think I would like my H going to the same gym where the OW goes.

The plan is that he will not take any calls. And, if an attempt is made, he will tell me. We previously, after contact ended, had a deal that if any contact was attempted by OW, the NC letter would be mailed certified mail. But, he will be in a sort of armored and secure building. Most likely his cell service will not be available. He wrote a phone number down of a co-worker that has the same exchange as hers. He brought it right to me and said "I just want you to know I wrote this number down. It's John's cell number so don't get worried if you see the area code". This is something he would not have previously done. So, I'll check the # and make sure it's not hers!

Only time will tell! He just does not understand why I cannot move forward. He says he is committed and is here in body and soul and that I should believe him. I have not caught up to his thinking pattern yet. It will be a long weekend. But, I am going out with a girlfriend on Sat. night as both of my children have been asked to a sleepover. So, although I do not drink...I'm feeling wine in my future!!

Here's something to consider, though...her ability to get in touch with him in non-working hours is no different when he's away then when he's here. We tried to have her #'s blocked on his cell phone but Nextel does not offer this service. The only way it works is for him to get a new #. But, this cannot happen until he gets a new job, as the cell # would be published for other employees anyway. So, all I can do is hope she's moved on to greener pastures.

I know that in your rational mind, your H is no more likely to talk with OW away from home as at home, but it still feels gross to have to let him go. I'm not there yet at all. I would be a complete wreck if my H went away without me for the weekend.

I know you can make it through this. Don't let the fear drive you nuts.

HTM

Hi fiori!

I've spent many a weekend away from home for work so I hope it will comfort you to know that during drills like this there really isn't any time available for socializing of any kind. If he were off at a sales meeting it'd be another story, but drill weekends are pretty much packed with work. Usually things do not stay on schedule so even meal times are likely to get canceled and we usually end up ordering take out and eating while working. If OW dropped by she would get yelled at for being in the way -- distractions are most definitely NOT welcome. It's exhausting and very stressful quite frankly. Your husband would much rather be home so count your blessings that you get to go out and have wine! If anyone should be jealous, it should be your hubby as you'll be out and about footloose and kid-free

Perhaps I'm naive, but I never thought she'd actually show up there. There will be 10 of H's employees along with him and she would look like a total "yang" and my 16yr. old says, if she showed up. He's going over 2 1/2 hours away so it's not exactly like she could say "ooo, I was in the neighborhood". She's gross anyway.

It's funny you say that Snuggles. The first time my H went away for a week he was more worried about me and what I would do. I think he was relieved when he came back to find that I was there open arms.

Well, here's a brief update. H left this morning. I'm a little disappointed that he did not leave me a note or card. I know, this is silly, but he knows this is a need of mine. Whenever he goes away I leave him notes tucked in his suitcase. This time I copied/pasted a few very wonderful postings on recovery from this sight and tucked them in shirts & underwear. He knows they are there. I simply said "hey, if you get a few moments, I'd love it if you'd read these papers." He said no problem. So, we'll see if he does.

He's been there since about 3:00 today. His drill began at 4 and goes til 4pm Sunday. This place is very heavily security secure so unless OW is really there, there's no way she can get in. I asked him this morning how I could know for sure that OW was not there. He looked at me and simply said "faith". Ok, we'll see how it goes! Right now I have two 13yr. old boys to entertain! Tomorrow night is my night off...two glasses of wine, perhaps, and a grown up dinner.

By the way...H has called three times already. Once just to tell me what was in the catering conference room.

Here's another thought...
I am off to a baby shower for my cousin right now. The problem is...her sister in law is a dead ringer for OW. YUCK!! I'm hoping this is not going to put me into a tailspin. H has already called twice today. He's tired and busy but attempting to be very attentive, knowing this weekend is a struggle. Oh well -- off I go!

I think it's great your H is calling you so often - don't take it lightly (I know you won't). I really like your H's efforts from your posts. I believe he is truly committed to R. I know most of the angst is on your side and rightfully so. Enjoy yourself this weekend and don't let the dumpy redhead get into your head and good time.

G

Ok, fyi...that baby shower was tremendously difficult for me. This poor innocent girl, who could be OW's twin, was everywhere I went. I did everything to avoid being in her line of vision or having to engage her in any way. I began to think she was picking up on it, but I might simply be paranoid. Oh, but it was not easy at all. She was the very first face I saw when I walked in. I sure hope my cousin doesn't plan on having a Christening...I don't think I can take it!

Ok, here's another FYI...
I'm beginning to lose my cool here. Both kids have been farmed out to friends for the night so I could go to the baby shower while H is at disaster recovery. Soooo, now I'm home and feeling very alone. I tried to call H phone but he has it turned off. I'm hoping he's sleeping, as he's been up for 36 hours and needs rest before he starts another all-nighter. But, I called the hotel and he does not answer there either. You know...I'm imagining a wild romp with OW. I know, it seems that was not the nature of their relationship, but my brain is going haywire. Basically, he's probably in the shower, but the imagination is on overload. And, I'm supposed to be going out to dinner with a girlfriend. She just told me where to meet her but it's in another 1 1/2 hours. Do you know how nuts I'll be by then? I'll drive myself into a hole! I better leave the house and change my scenery so I stay sane. You know, I'm my own worst enemy. I need to listen to the rational side of my brain, but the irrational side is soooooo much louder. I just wish the stupid phone would ring! I'm tempted to drive to OW's house and make sure she's there. But, I've never stooped to this level yet and I don't intend to now.
Before H left he asked that I have faith...I'm going to work on that.

Have faith, have faith, have faith!!!

And something to think about - what is the payoff for you to allow your irrational side to get the best of you?

Hello my sweet friend!

Just got back from Girls Camp. Talk about having Faith. LOL!

You are going to be fine. You have all that it takes to get through this. You are an amazing, beautiful daughter of God. He loves you and He knows you and He knows what you are capable of.

You have been through so many challenges and you are a warrior.

Remember all the great things about this man that you love. Don't let the dumpy red head win any battles.

You are the Queen!!!

Love ya,
OnlyU

P.S. off to dinner with my family that has missed me, but wanted to check in and make sure you were ok!

You are a true peach and I'm glad you're back safe. Really, I am ok. H has called many times today...not a normal occurrance for him. But, I can give him this, he's trying. I do have thoughts that creep in about the possibility that she is really there and he's simply placating me, but I shake them off as quickly as they come. I explained to him my troubles with the girl at the shower and he was very understanding and sympathetic.
Tonight was for me. I went to an overly expensive dinner with one of my best girlfriends and then out for a cup of tea. It was very perfect. We had lots of time to chat minus kiddies and hubbies.

So, tomorrow is a new day. I will conquer some things around the house, as I'm not quite sure what time either child will be coming home. It's a me day -- a treat that I will try to enjoy.

Only...really, it's great to have you back. I always cherish your wisdom. I feel like we are kindred spirits. I thought of you often at girl camp and hoped you were relaxing and having fun.

There is no payoff at all. Well, there is the lack of appetitie. I do like the size 8!! Does that count?

Seriously, though, I get it. But, I will address the horomonal stuff I deal with the same week monthly. It was suggested I take Sam E. Does anyone take this? I've never taken anything but am willing to try ot conquer the blues I get.

I'll check in tomorrow. Bubble bath time!

I made sure to take B vitamins (6 & 12) for monthly hormonal stuff. I found it to work very well as long as I started taking the vitamins at least a week before period started. Now I'm perimenopausal and its a different story. I feel great all the time and my sex drive has increased. My obgyn tells me that will change after menopause (I hope not)!! By the way when I would get hormonal my poor H was my punching bag (how did he put up with me?)

G

G,
Am I nuts or did you change your name? Are you messing with me?

I do have a quick question.
Why do you think it is that you and a few of the others are able to see the effort my H is making but I do not? It's not that I don't see it, but some days it does not seem enough. I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for. Maybe I just need to see that he's serious about our recovery and moving forward. Maybe I need to have him be a bit more demonstrative with his efforts...I crave notes, cards...stuff like that. He knows this but almost seems like he's refusing to do this in spite of what he knows will make me happy. In the beginning I figured he would not do it because then I'd have a hard copy of his lies. I also used to be afraid that he did not send me notes or cards because he did not want me to ever be able to show them to OW in case he did leave me and then she'd know he was lying to her too. You see where my brain goes? I get trapped in all the scenarios where he was saying sweet things to me and then speaking with her behind my back. It's almost cold. I'm not sure where the conscience goes. But, I do see that this is part of the fog. It's strange how something can take over another person's brain. I've even thought the calls he's making this weekend are lies. Truely, I know they are not. He is absolutely trying to keep my mind at ease by calling many, many times. I soooo appreciate this. But, there's a fear that I'm being played for a fool. I imagine over time this fear reverts back to love/trust and I'm able to feel safe again. I long for those days...just not quite there yet.
So, I'll rely on you guys to tell me when i'm being unreasonable and that H is really making efforts. I need that from you and it's very much appreciated. So, thanks.

Yes I changed ID because I keep recommending people to the forum and they would have figured out my id (not that it is a big deal but you never know). I understand the fog thing. Your H is obviously not meeting one of your needs and that is to feel safe and secure in the relationship. You have asked for the notes as a form of confirmation, but to me it seems he's just not taking the note thing seriously (men's thinking). Does he understand what happens to you when you don't have these confirmations. You need to tell him "this is how I feel when I don't get the confirmation I need." (keeping away from saying "You" or blaming him.)

Fiori,
I want to add - even though it has been a year of recovery for us, fear still comes up at times. We were supposed to spend last week together with both kids being away at camp. Instead we were very much apart and I started feeling like we were disconnected and fear started coming back. Then H had to go yesterday morning to do a job and thoughts popped into my head - was he telling me the truth. I had my panic and waited it out to see if I really had good reason to panic and in the end I didn't. He was at a job and it was just one of those weeks that other things got in the way.

G

g,
I just want to add this little tid-bit. I believe we're up to call #14 since Friday when H left for disaster drill. I can only believe that if OW was there, she would not tolerate this much communication between he and I. In my gut, I believe she is not there. But, I still wonder if she tried to call. I'll find out tomorrow.

I don't think she's attempted: your husband has called you alot and would contact you if OW attempted and her more recent attempts have been through third-party email. Relax and enjoy the rest of your day.

G

Ok, he's back. I really wanted to spend some quality time with him but his sister is in from Minneapolis with the new BF and she came over just 10 minutes after H walked in the door. They ended up staying here for about 8 hours! So, at one time they did leave to take our youngest to a movie so we got a chance to catch up and chat. It's nice to have him home. He's called me either 'honey' or 'sweetie' twice in the past few days. He has not done this for quite a while...it was special.
We leave for vacation in two days so the time away will be valuable.

I suggest the next time he goes into the shower you surprise him by joining him. He'll offer to do a lot more than say sweet things - watch and see.

G

This suggestion was under the assumption you haven't done this - you may have already?

G

I HAVE ONE LESS KID TODAY! HOORAY!!!

Sorry, just had to share! School starts today and I dropped off the oldest one and the next one goes in an hour and a half.

WOOHOO!!!

HTM

Wow, school starts today? I have to wait until Aug. 27 (East Coast). I really can't complain though - my kids are teenagers and on their own pretty much. It's different when kids are small and at home.

East coast where? I am too and the kids don't start til after Labor day. Lucky!

As for the shower, I may have to wait til some of these boys of mine are gone...they never seem to leave us alone! We shall see, I'll take your advise under advisement.

New York. The wonderful thing about recovery is that you get to fall in love with your spouse all over again. Sometimes I feel like we're back to how we were when we were dating - it's a wonderful thing. I think it is a honeymoon phase of recovery. I don't know if it lasts but I'm enjoying it. You and I have kids the same age except one of mine is girl. The wonderful thing about us moving into a different house is that we now have a masterbedroom with master bath and locks on the door - it's a wonderful thing!!

G

Ga,
Since your H got 'involved' with a woman at the gym, do you still, now that he's not going there, feel like you need to check up on him occassionally?

H brought home a new phone last night. Too bad, this one does not offer the service of blocking a phone number either. I will check that out myself, though. I almost feel out of sorts with the new phone. Previously I just knew how to navigate through to check on him and now it seems harder. No big deal...
Anyway, I really just wondered if there was ever cause in your mind to check on him to this day?

I might have just figured out what I'm looking for from H. He's making such strides, but I still feel like something is missing. So, while blowdrying hair it came to me. It's very simple...I'm looking for him to be like "HOLY CRAP...Look what I almost lost. I had the perfect life (minus a few needed tweeks) and I almost lost it all for a senseless ego boost!"

This is it, I don't feel any urgency from him. Should I be waiting for urgency or simply take what's in front of me. Now, mind you, urgency is not really one of his regular emotions, but I'm thinking it might apply here. Am I wrong?

Yeah fiori, I felt that way. I used to tell him that there was a fire burning and he set the fire. I felt like he had no sense of urgency and that is what I wanted from him.

I have not really felt that sense of intensity from him. He may have given me behaviors that he would find to be intense. I just did not feel the urgency. But then again, I don't know what he could have done that would have conveyed it to me the way I wanted to feel it.

That is why when I read your posts and HTM's posts, I feel some similarities to the way we three respond and the way our men respond. Right now, I am just working on the aspects of family life that I feel I need from him in order to get us on the right track.

I am trying to make sure that we have joint agreement on family tasks and am asking him to provide the lead on certain tasks and let me provide the lead on other tasks. I don't want him doing my tasks and then leave his tasks uncompleted. I want him and he has agreed to keep the 14 year old productive and active. I want him to be the limit setter for the 14 year old and to spend time with him. In return, I will do the cooking and other household tasks. When he completes outdoor tasks, I have asked him to seek assistance from the boys rather than do these things alone.

That used to be a trigger for me...new phones. I panicked until I could figure out all the little nuances of it so that I could make sure I was checking. Sigh!

I don't think it's healthy to completely stop checking. I've done that before too and been sadly surprised, like this last time that contact had occurred for a month before I even knew it. Yikes!

There were so many times that FWH did not see or feel any sense of urgency in our R. In some ways, I think it was easier for him to be in "denial" out of either guilt, shame, embarrassment, etc. When he would write me letters, he always sounded SO wracked with grief over what he had done to me. I could only assume that his "brush it under the carpet" mode was his defense mechanism.

It's funny - this morning I was telling my H about one of the situations on this site and he made a comment "the person needs to wash their hands off of the other person and move on." Well I couldn't let that one get away so I said "in that case that is what I should have done with you." He changed his tune. I think it's a man thing to just want to forget or act like it never happened, especially if R is going good. I have made a point of checking my H cell phone in front of him to remind him I will check. I honestly don't think I'll find a unknown phone number but I like that he knows I'll check. I don't do this often. After Dday my H was devastated at the thought of losing his family so he did cry in front of me. I was ready to divorce him. He was very remorseful then, not now but I don't expect him to be now. I don't like that he acts like it never happened. Like you once typed Fiori, I didn't ask for these memories in my head. How was your H when you discovered EA?

Well, my 'discovery' was really a process. She was given to him as an employee after her boss quit. It was a slow and gradual notice that the name was coming up in conversation more than others. Then there was an invite to a party at her house that we could not go to. Her suggestion was that he come alone and I go off to the kids music program...Hmmmmm...big red flag! I noticed immediately when she came to our house for dinner that she was outwardly flirting with him. So, then I pointed it out. There were many, many opportunities where he told me I was crazy and they were simply friends and that I could not totally "run" his life and he needed to be allowed to have friends outside of here. When the Poop hit the fan in October it was tragic. He cried, we cried...he immediately went to have a meeting with our Deacon. But, during the EA he was a mess anyway. His body rejected the entire thing. He started to have a benign shake in his hands, he lost weight, he had constant headaches and look old for a 41 yr. old person. He even agreed to go to the doc for a full blood workup. So, he knew all along that what he was doing was wrong. It just took his brain a while to catch up. And, then there were many more times where the same scenario played out. I really don't think he ever thought I'd kick him out or divorce him. That, I believe, is the single most reason why he was able to get away with continuing as long as he did. Who knows, he may be right. But, I will not go through it again. This has been hell on my family and on me. My boys are still effected and I apparently look 'emaciated'. That's my mom's version but I fail to see how a size 8 can be emaciated! She's a size 22 so I must look teeny. Anyway...that's my story. We're off to vacation today for 10 days at the beach. Last year I looked over my shoulder the entire time for her. Hopefully this year I don't feel like I have to.

I will tell you the times my husband shows remorse is when I'm loving him most (like surprises in the shower). That's when he'll make comments like "I can't believe I almost lost you." Enjoy your vacation.

Ok, you must be one really clean girl!! You've referenced that shower scene a few times now. I will take care of this little show while on vacation. I may check in once or twice, but this is going to be happy vacation...not thinking one. thanks.

Nah, it's a WS thing. My W does the same thing. They don't like the guilt they feel when reminded of what they did.

Agreed. It has nothing to do with being a man. My STBXWW didn't want to be reminded of it.

Hey there fiori...

How are things going? Did you have a nice weekend? I hope that you didn't let OW take up any of your fun time with H.

Give me a call sometime.

MogiSola

who is this? How can I call? I don't recognize you at all. sorry, if I should

Sorry to freak you out. I'm not a red-head...

Check out what I heard on the voice recorder! He's not in contact as far as I know, but he was a bit of a jerk.

MogiSola

Hi Fiori,
Just checking in to see how you are doing and how's your vacation going? Hope all is going well and the "DRH" was out of the picture during a special time with family.

G

G,
Thanks for the inquiry. We are home from 10 glorious days at the beach and it's kind of sad. My 13yr. old cried the whole way home! But, it's reality time. Back to school, back to work, back to finishing the kitchen remodel.

As for H and I, things went well. We had alot of time to spend together and alot of nice memories. He did not check in with work more than twice and to my knowledge, there was no attempted contact by OW. But, one day our children were out with family members and we had a chance to have some time alone. We put up our umbrella, collected the sand castle toys and headed to the beach for some total relaxation. Unfortunately, things were not all good. H wanted to 'talk'. Nothing heavy, just unload a few things about his job search and the direction his life is taking. He's very concerned about the massive changes that are in his near future. I tried to carry on the conversation, but he did not like my resistance to it. Yes, I realize he needs a new job...yes, I realize this is a tough choice for him and yes, I realize it's overwhelming with so much uncertainty. He feels like nothing has been good for the last 15 months of his life. Excuse the sarcasm...but WHO'S FAULT IS THAT??? So, through much conversation, OW did come up. He does not understand why all things always come back to her. I tried to not be judgemental or critical, but I pointed out to him that because of her, this potentially exciting time in our lives has been tainted. We should be energized by the prospect of him getting a job that he's wanted to change for 7 years now. This should be something we're doing together as a couple...not something that seems dragged down by necessity. You see, his actions with OW made this a necessity so it's taken alot of the fun out of it. I would have liked to have been a part of the process with him, as I believe I would have been if not for HER. So, after a few hours we decided to let it go. I apologized to him for not giving his conversation what he wanted, but tried to nicely explain to him that it's impossible to seperate the two, since one is causing the other. He indicated that his expectations were unrealistic and that he needs to be more sensitive as to the fact that the wound is still fresh for me and that there will be more time needed to heal.

So, after all that, we tried to rebuild the remainder of the day. I did jump in the shower, as you suggested and it was nice. But, hard to regroup and feel sexy once you've had a two hour discussion about dumpy red-heads. So, we settled on cuddling and careful expression. I so deeply want to stop walking on eggshells with this man. He's not a bad person but he did a bad thing. He does not believe I'll ever forgive him. REally, I don't think that's really what concerns him at all. He wants me to forget. I told him that forgiveness would come, but if he expected me to totally erase this time from my mind, that would not be possible. I feel it would be a dis-service to myself to not hold this (loosely) somewhere in my head so that it never happens to me again.

I do have one other concern, but will touch on that tomorrow. I'm worried about HTM and feel I have to touch base with her and see that she's ok. My cell service was nil at the beach so she's fallen out of my contact range and I see trouble...thanks.

Ok, yesterday I eluded to the fact that there may be a slight problem with me. Maybe it's normal given my circumstances, but I'd like feedback from others who may have had the same thing occur.
You see, ever since I found out about the dumpy red-head I've started to notice other men. Not interested at all, but I feel like I have to be more aware of what's out there. I'm 44 years old chronologically, but my mind thinks I'm still in my early 30's. So, now I find myself looking at men in my age bracket and wondering if I could be attracted to someone this age. Is that weird? I have no intentions of EVER cheating and have no desire to do so. But, because I feel like H gave himself a back-up plan, I almost feel like I need one too. Do I think we'll end up divorced? Nope...deep down inside I do not. However, I need him to make a few changes in his life to live up to what we both agreed upon. During vacation he very actively looked for a new job...this is much easier when he's not at work. Also, he asked me to help him today by finding an executive recruiter that he can meet with as opposed to a search agency online. I sent the info I found and he was excited by it and has already made a call/email contact. This is good.
But, things that I've settled for before now seem unreasonable to me. I've always figured marriage was a 10 point scale. I have always been very satisfied with my marriage. But, there are a few points where H does not quite fit my profile for a "perfect" marriage. Knowing that there is no such thing, I've been ok with not putting too much weight into the few things I feel I'm missing out on. But, now that he opened the door I feel like I should be making some requests. Should I? Can I now ask him to do the things I've never asked for 20 years? Can I now expect him to be more romantic? Can I expect him to be more social? Can I expect him to "cherish" me? I've always felt loved, but not really cherished. This could simply be his personality...but do I ask that he change that? I'm not sure where the line is as to what is or is not acceptable. I feel like I have a new lease on life. I don't want my old marriage back, I want a new improved one...but with the same guy! Is this too much to ask?

It feels a little wrong to say this and I'm sure I'm probably breaking all sorts of code of ethics for recovery...but I think I may be able to articulate what I'm feeling!
I feel entitled. I feel badly saying it, but it's true. I feel like H messed with my head for an entire year (and who knows what residual damage I'll carry with me) and now it's my turn. Maybe just writing it down will help me to get it out of my system, but that's really what it is. It's like deep down inside (I'm ashamed to say...not very deep) I feel like he owes me something. And, if it's changing how he acts or adopting a few new habits, do I have this right to ask? I could not quite figure out what it was before but I had my 'aaahhhhaa' moment!

Hey there,

Welcome back!!

I think your feelings are ABSOLUTELY common for a BS in Recovery. I don't think that your "entitlement" to the things in your M that you have overlooked or settled with is unreasonable. I think that this has become a wake up call and it goes both ways. If there were things that he wanted from you that he sought out in the DRH and now gets from you, there is no reason why you can't take it up a notch too. I would focus on the ones that specifically relate to your EN since you have already identified quantifiably what you know are the top 5 and will fill your love bank.

Looking at the other men I think comes with the Recovery process as well. Your life has had an upset. You probably look at other women different too. Like, hmm..wonder if she has been a BS or an OW, etc. Just acknowledge and recognize the part it is in the process and stay true to your boundaries and ethics.

I wouldn't want my old M either. Why would any of us? Process this new discovery and find a way to discuss it with him. He's got momentum now for change (his job), slip in the change for a better M that helps BOTH of you. Because when you are happy, HE will be happy!

Fiori,
Thanks for the update.
I know exactly what you mean by looking at other men. I feel like my H opened the door for me to look. I think it is normal part of R. I started thinking about one person from my past and what might have been. I even looked up horoscope compatibility. I was disappointed to discover my H was not a match for me but that the other person was a great match for me. I don't believe this stuff but it shows how obsessive I got. I felt so guilty thinking about this other person. What I found was - with time I came to my senses and recognized it's part of R. I think for me it was a way to emotional detach from my H, not intentionally but from the hurt I had felt. I wanted to hold onto something that my H didn't have a part of.
Do you see changes in your H in trying to meet your needs? I don't think you are getting the same relationship prior to EA. Considering you both have had difficulty communicating I think you both did a great job at the beach. R is a process and you will go through different stages.

Have you guys done the Policy of Joint Agreement. I never did with my H. We did do the EN questionnaire and recently did it again because my needs have changed.

G

G,
I've never really taken the time to truely understand the POJA, but once I started seeing the letters I did a little research. Actually, we never did a formal one but I see that we have pretty much established one without really knowing what we did. If I'm correct, it's basically a set of guidlines (rules) that need to be followed in order for both marriage partners to feel satisfied. He does abide by this, to my knowledge. I'm aware of his location, he calls me if he misses the train and has to drive to work, if he's going to be late in the evening he calls, if there is any attempt by ow to contact him he will tell me...this is the kind of stuff we agreed to. And, there are some for me too. I have to be more understanding of the position he's in with work and NOT bust his chops if he's late. I have to allow for his lopsided work schedule until he's found another job. I try to not have every argument turn into a bash-fest of OW (something I seem to enjoy). I think, after the holiday's I will get a small part time job so that I can begin to develop some interests outside our marriage. This prospect frightens me a bit, as I've been out of the loop for so long. But, I miss people. My H is not a social person and would much prefer to stay in our home cocoon. I crave people. I love conversation with strangers...I love to watch people. But, I'm not willing to sacrifice my family time. So, the perfect job has to be out there so I can perk up ME> We'll see.

Ok, so I rambled a lot...did I answer your question?

I feel my H and I have done the same thing. We know (and discussed) what we expect from each other. Yesterday we were talking about our top needs. His have not changed but mine have.
I think getting a part-time job is a great idea. I was a stay-at-home mom and started working part-time. I didn't think I'd find a job where I could only work a couple of hours but I did. With every year I added on hours.
One of the problems in my early marriage was I did everything and I became resentful because I gave up a career and my H got to work and be with adults. I wouldn't have changed my decision - I loved being home with my kids. I wish I knew then about meeting EN. As a stay-at-home mom I felt better when I started a book club. I got to be around women(and some men) that were interested in the same thing I was and it took me out of the house for an evening. I'm like you - I enjoy people and my H is more reclusive. You're not a Gemini, are you?

Nope...both kids are but I'm a Virgo. H is too! I'm wondering what your compatability chart would say about that!

That's funny - my H is a Virgo too. Virgo's go with Capricorn, Taurus, Cancer, Scorpio. See Virgo/Virgo compatibility below:

Well ok then...
I'm not quite sure what to make of that except that we've been married for 18 years and have managed to do a decent job of it. I suppose that does not sound too bad, I think.

So, what you're telling me is that while I am out 'trolling' the neighborhood I should be looking for either a Capricorn, Taurus, Scorpio or Cancer??? Just kidding!!!

Don't you have ENOUGH trouble with just ONE MAN. I know I do.
:crosseyedcrazy:

Mogi

Oh Lord...I am amazed at people who have multiple marriages throughout their lives! This is like a full time job and I cannot imagine doing it over and over again. I think I will stick with the one I have and make it the best it can be.


By the way...any prayers would be greatly appreciated regarding H and his new job search. After vacation he's found a new sense of desire to reclaim his life and find a new profession that not only helps our cause by inspires him too. This could be good for us for more reasons than the obvious.

No major problem for me....but simply a thought about what happened tonight.
H has been very sweet and attentive lately. It's been refreshing. Tonight I needed to take our son to work to cover the final hour of another kid's 4 hour shift. H called to say he'd be 15/20 minutes late as he was stuck in traffic. No problem, I was prepared for this. He rarely drives in to work but went in late. But, I don't think he remembered that I had to take our son to work. I was a nervous wreck the entire time I was driving him as it was along the road H would be using to come home. I'm surprised I got there in one piece. I was too busy watching the two lanes of oncoming traffic to see if he was approaching home with dumpy red-head in his car. Now, she lives in another state and it's not likely this would be the scenario...but it was alive in my head. Then, I read the postings here by another who cannot 'connect with the hurt I caused' and it frightened me. Does H believe things like this person does? It's weird. I'm soooo confident about what he's doing and our progress and then these thoughts creep into my head. Paranoid -- I know. But, this is part of my life now. I, too, live in a very anxiety ridden world and doubt seriously that H really 'gets' that. Sad, but true. Well, I'll take a bubble bath now and try to shift my focus...something I could NOT have done three months ago. I'll talk to H when he and son get home and let him know the fear I had while driving. Tomorrow's a new day.

Again...We need prayers about him finding a new job asap!!

AAAAAHHHHHH!!!

Lat night really stunk. Nothing happened, I had no reason to panic. But, I did. Really, H did nothing at all to disturb or upset me but I freaked out. I tried to go to bed but there was this nagging feeling in my gut that kept me up all night. Finally, at around 2 I went downstairs (H was fixing stuff on computer)to get him. I explained to him that I was in distress (for no unknown reason) so he came up to lay with me and try to calm me down. I wasn't out of control, just having creepy dreams about OW. Well, the night is over and I happy for that. When he left for work he gave me a big hug and reassured me that we'd talk today. I'll be fine...just a bit tired.

Not long ago I remember we went to a new lawyer's office to update our wills. The office was near the gym and the OW. I actually trembled as we got closer. I did not want to see the gym or the OW. I didn't know what she looked like and I wanted to keep it that way. My H suggested we go the restaurant across the street. I thought it was insensitvie and reminded him - was he prepared to introduce me to his "friends" from the gym. He said he would gladly introduce me and I guess after he thought about how I'd feel, he said maybe it's best to go somewhere else. I think I was a little depressed that evening - mostly I didn't like having being put in that position. There will be panic moments and it's up to H on how he handles it. I'm glad you told him.

I am in a complete state of frustration right now. Nothing big and no new appearances by OW...
Yesterday H approached me about talking. He's not a real talker and for him to actually have huge conversations is rare. So, we sat outside while kids were occupied and he began to chat. There was on brief exchange at the beach and he wanted to make sure he had cleared everything up for me and that I was feeling ok about it. So, as always, the talk progressed from one thing to another. Then, the topic comes up about our inability to communicate with each other properly. Hmmmm...where have I heard this before? This was part of his initial platform to 'explain' why he got tagled with OW in the first place. Apparently she has skills like no other regarding communication and a special 'connection'. So, I started to get a little defensive. He questioned me as to why. I explained to him that it's hard for me to remain neutral during this conversation since he was pointing out something that he's already told me she was sooooooo great at and something he thinks I'm not. It's frustrating. I have never thought he's been willing to totally fill my needs. The one for romance is left behind all the time. But, I'm being realistic. Anyway...conversation, dinner with kids, light a fire in firepit with kids, roast marshmallow's....just basic family stuff. About 11:30 he comes to me and says "I just want to let you know that I'll be outside looking at meteor's in the back yard" "If you need me, I have my phone but I'll be outside a bit". I'm 1/2 asleep and say "ok, by...have fun". About 1:45 I hear a noise that wakes me. I look over, no H. I get up and look around the house. No H. I go out in the back yard, around the driveway, into the front yard. Surely I must have missed him upstairs. So, I go back upstairs and peak in the kids rooms, our room and the bathroom. No H. I am freaking out now internally. So, I go to the phone and give him a call, as he instructed. No answer. It goes right to tape. Just as I finish I see him walking up our street. Now, he's left his wallet, keys, computer and all stuff behind. I was furious. I told him he had no right to do that to me. I woke up and was in a full blown panic. First it was fear he was with her and then just plain fear. I'm curious why someone would be that cruel. A few times very early on in this escapade, I came downstairs or outside to find him 'sneaking' a call to OW. He showed me his call log and was irritated that I asked to see it. Too bad. But, we talked for another 1 1/2 hours. It's frustrating. I told him I needed for him to protect me from damage before it happens, not alwasys wait to do damage control. So, we changed some stuff. He acted like a little boy but has now said he's going to stay home always and not leave our property any time after midnight. You see, it's quite normal for him to be up late working. This is how his swinging fun times began...late at night on the phone. Anyway, he apologized for being insensitive. I'm not sure I buy it. He is acting a bit arrogant for me. Basically, he believes that because HE has decided to move on and move forward minus OW that I should simply jump on board. I should see the value in his actions and the strides he's made. I don't put any of this down, but really? Does he really think I'll forget this? And, does he really think there is no comparision that goes on between she and I? I'm getting off topic. No emergency, just a tired wife wishing her husband would act proactively and not reactively.

Is there a pay phone down the street?

My H told me similar things very early in one of our false recoveries about the connection he had with the other woman...one he didn't feel with me...I reacted the same way as you...with the same hurt...unfortunately, his affair continued for at least a couple more years after that. Your H isn't quite getting it and, though I haven't read your story for a while to remember it....if you haven't done so, you should go to an MB weekend or get the home study course and go through it together.

All the best to you.

Fiori,
That was really insensitive of your H to compare you to other woman and tell you so. What was he thinking?? It sounds to me you both are in serious need of help communicating and listening. I feel like your conversations always end up in frustration and that maybe true feelings don't get resolved. Your husband handled his frustration by acting out - taking a walk - probably because he felt he needed the time to think - not realizing how it would impact you. For him to say he'll always stay home from now on is not handling the conflict well. And this doesn't help you because nothing's really resolved with why the conflict came up in the first place. How can you move forward when your going back two steps - does this make sense? Have you both considered a session with H or the weekend session?

G

fiori,

Did he say why he was down the street and away from your property? That seems a bit strange that he is taking a walk at 1:45 am. I'm not suggesting that he did anything, but that was truly an insensitive act on his part. He told you he would be in the yard and he told you he had his phone so you could call him.

Is it his work cell that he had? If so, you don't have access to the bills, right? Again, I'm not suggesting that he did anything, but he's not being completely accountable if it's just the call log that he showed you unless you can see the bill too to verify that he was not on the phone during this time.

It was his poor judgment that puts you in a place that you have to verify his accountability.

I know you have mentioned finances are in the way of Harley counseling, but can you afford the Home MB Weekend Course that Trix referred to? The two of you need something that you are working on together to mend this communication gap. He's not a great communicator either, he says things that he doesn't mean and he doesn't say things that you need to hear.

Hang in there.

Of course, my H had a secret affair cell phone which the OW provided. He kept is stashed in his truck and always kept his truck locked) I eventually found it.

Maybe it was normal for your H to be walking down the street after 1:30 AM...but I sure don't think it 'normal' behavior for a FWH who is in a real recovery. He was thinking of something other than how hurtful it would be if you found him missing....quite thoughtless behavior.

(try to break your long posts into smaller paragraphs to make it easier to read)

Ok...here goes.

He went out to look at meteors...a very normal thing for him to do in our area. Normally he does this in our back yard but the trees are in full bloom and he was peeking through pockets of leaves. He walked to the end of the street where there is a large feild to see any shooting stars. No, there is no pay phone any where near us.

Yes, it was his work cell phone. No, I do not have any access to bills. I do not think he was talking to or with dumpy red-head. I believe he was doing exactly what he said. But, I felt it was insensitive for him to get it to a point where I came down stairs and found him gone. His wallet was here, keys & computer, so I knew he was going nowhere.

Today we are caught in ugliness. I'm angry and he's not getting it. He does understand my frustration and is very sensitive on most accounts. But, this threw me over the edge. I just do not think it's "normal" for anyone to be out walking in the middle of the night. This is not abnormal for him as he's in IT and works strange hours. He usually runs between 11 and 12 in the night.

There is probably no secret phone. Trust me, I pretty much know every corner of his car.

G,
He did not compare me to OW, I did. I feel that simply by introducing her into our marriage there was comparison going on. I believe, and he disagrees, that comparison was part of the deal early on. He says we struggle to communicate effectively. He also told me around d-day what a beautiful connection they had and how communication flowed like a waterfall (my analogy, not his).

Again, do I think he's doing something? Nope. But, I've asked that he treat our marriage proactively not reactively. He is foolish with his choices sometimes and then we have to do two days of clean up. I'm tired of the cleanup part. I need for him to put ME first and not himself. I'm tired of feeling like I do the lions share of recovery. I'd be lying if I did not tell you all how wonderful he's been lately. He's planned a special date, he's attentive, he's calling even if he's 10 minutes late, he checks in all day, every day and he's generally sweet. Yesterday he tried to have a conversation with me. I got angry and brought it to her.

But, here's where we do not agree. He believes we should be able to seperate the Dumpy red-head part of our lives from the rest. He believes there are times where she should not be a factor. But, she always is for me. You know, when we were on vacation we all went mini-golf. I actually thought when it was all over...."wow, I just spent an entire hour and not once did the dumpy red-head come into my mind. that was pleasant." You see, he can put it on a shelf, I'm not there yet.

As for MB weekend...I'll look it up. We really have to do something because we're seemingly ill prepared to be doing it ourselves. And, not that I'll tell him this, but I KNOW this is all hormonal for me and I hate that. I go to the doc in Sept. and I have to have the BC pill changed...it's renderned me a wreck the same week every month. I don't need any help being out of control.

So, I suppose we're on the roller coaster ride again. But, I MUST shake it. My 13yr. old will be singing tonight God Bless America at the 7th inning stretch for a nationally televised baseball game. This night has to be about him.

We had a red haired OW too....I was obsessed with triggers as you were. The more he reassures you and time passes....the more she will not enter your mind....

It does get so much easier with time and real recovery. It does take time though. ( I am talking more than a year or two)

Try to tell those habitual thoughts that surface to shut up...freeze the thought and have a stare down contest with it --> AND IT WILL DISSIPATE....that worked for me.

Fiori,



I know how you feel and believe me I know what hormones can do.
There's a contradiction here. He's doing these wonderful things but he's not putting you first. And you keep letting the dumpy red head be a wedge between you and your H and R. I didn't appreciate my H telling me how wonderful the OW was and how she helped him with me (gag!). I learned one lesson from calling the OW on my husband's cell phone - I was not going to give her the power to interfere with me, my H and my M. I started to focus on just us and no longer considered the OW. Your H wants to focus on you and R. You are the one who keeps bringing the OW back into the relationship. I'm sorry if this sounds insensitive.

IT'S NOT INSENSITIVE....IT'S TRUE!!!!!

I think the biggest roadblock I have is that she still works at same company as H. Now, thankfully, they are in two different buildings, but there is a murmur that her dept. will move some time in OCtober. Because of this he has seriously stepped up his employment search efforts.

On a better note...last night my 13yr. old sang at the 7th inning stretch in front of 43,039 people. He was asked to sing God Bless America and I am amazed. He blew that song out of the water and the crowd roared. What a moment for us as a family!!

Did you record your son singing the anthem so it can be posted on You Tube?

Anyway...I am sure you are way proud of him.

Yes, we recorded. I will have it up later today and post the link. Previously he sang at a talent show and several people from here have already watched him sing. Both will be there so I'll let you know when I've figured out how to do it! Thanks.

fiori,

Awesome! I love hearing the good stuff! It keeps us going.

Oh yeah....I seem to remember viewing a video as you describe several months back and being quite impressed.

Yes, that was him at a talent show. But, this one is much more impressive. Here's the question, though...should I really simply email the youtube address if people want to see it? He's clearly identified by the announcer.

H is working on getting it uploaded as we 'speak'. We'll see for tomorrow...I hope.

Probably a good idea.

I have a 'fake' email address that anyone can use if they'd like to hear/see my little man at the baseball game singing at the 7th inning stretch. Thanks.
nobbietrain@comcast.net

Hope you like it!
Only...I've already emailed you the link.

G,
Here's my horoscope for the day! Very true, very true.

You can't get a positive outcome if all you do is focus on negative stuff. Cheer up.

Yes, very true! I'll send you an email - I would like to see your son sing.

I've been meaning to ask you - do you think by bringing the OW into the R is a form of you getting your H to behave a certain way - kind of like a punishment to get a reaction out of him? Just wondering.

G

No, I'm not sure I think that. But, I do often find myself 'reminding' him of the mess he created because he has this amazing way of shelving stuff and moving on. He mistakenly believes that because he's made the choice to remove himself from her presence that I should take that as my clue to begin the healing process. He's very basic and pragmatic that way. I have to tell him that I'm a person, not an account and that I'm not going to simply 'heal' because he's decided to tell me to. I don't mean that in a bossy way, it's just that he is able to be so detached sometimes and I find that both a trait to envy and one to dislike. It seems cold to me. He just made a choice one day and that's it? Really, it was a several month process for he and she to detach, but now that he says it's behind him....For me, it's still raw. It's still fresh. When we had this awesome night with our son singing the other night, I wondered if he wanted to call OW to tell her the good news. Last year he would have. I know he's circulating the video at work...I sure hope she does not see. Different building...but!!!! I really need for him to be out of her arms length. But, right now he's got a substantial knee injury so I'll just nurse him back to health and concentrate on that rather than OW. Onward....

For me, there is a fear that if I completely forget, it will happen again. And unfortunately, I have had that occur to prove me right. Who knows, maybe that's what I called forth. Anyway, it will pass with time. Your world was rocked, turned upside down. If it was rape, you wouldn't forget it in such a short time. And the pain feels like that in many ways.

LOVED the video. The little guy is awesome. Has he had professional training?

I agree with everything you said...even the part where you called my little man great!

No, really...you're right. I, too, am afraid to forget. I told H that over time I thought forgiveness was much easier than forgetting. Can I forgive stupidity? Yup, I can. Do I forget it? No way! I feel like I have to protect myself. It saddens me to some extent. As I've said before, I was that cocky wife. The one who absolutely would proclaim to anyone with ears that I had worries about my H, but never that he would cheat on me. I also have friends who thought an EA was really not a big deal and could not understand why I was so distressed. I may have thought that before too, until it comes knocking at your own door. Well, I have not figured out what it is yet, but I'm sure there's some lesson here that is supposed to be valuable. Time will tell.

As for the singer...nope, no training at all. He did not even warm up prior to singing. They brought him into a holding room during the sixth inning hoping he'd calm down (yeah right--he wasn't nervous) and have a chance to warm up. My H took a video. He looked in all the cabinets and was most impressed that they left behind a pack of gum for him. Such simple things for 13 yr. olds. If only a pack of gum could make my life that much better.

As if on the gum!
Fiori - when you find yourself bringing OW back into discussion quietly ask yourself what is your motivation and you may get your answer. Your Dday was Oct and mine was August. We're not far apart in R timeframe but we are at different stages of R. It may very well be that the OW is out of the picture for me and not for you (yet) and that is the difference in R.

G

Yes, agreed. If H simply walked away and never returned to the scene of the crime this may be a bit more flowing for me. But, considering he did most of his damage at work and he still goes there, it's tough. And, top it all off with her presence in the same zip code. I simply need for her to NOT be within 6 states. At this point it's not really a lack of trust in him (I think) but rather a lack of trust in her. She really went on an all out campaign even going to my mother in law's house to try to have her help destroy our marriage/family so she could have H. That one fact is soooo incredulous to me. And, I'm not quite getting anger on his part. I think that may have been the last straw for me. No sense rehashing that...I can feel my stomach start to react. Tonight he has to work til 8. This is really hard for me because in my distorted mind it screams date. I know him, he'll call from his desk, not his cell phone and he'll make sure I realize where he is. Sadly, that's not always effective in my wharped brain. So, we'll keep the lines of communication very open and I'll give positive thinking a try. MogiSola said she was going to put a rubber band on her wrist and snap it whenever she has negative thoughts....this may be a possibility.
But, first and foremost for today is getting cleats for my little singer that fit his very quickly growing soccer feet~ :crosseyedcrazy:

I like that wrist band idea - snap it and come back to positive thoughts or reality. I had to buy my son sneakers (16 year old size 11 and 6' tall). They do grow like weeds.
I posted a new thread - I'm having strange week with H. He has become suspicious of me. From what other's here say - it is normal for WS to get fearful. I'm finding that R always brings up new challenges/issues that have to be dealt with. I guess that can be said for relationships too.
I feel like we were doing so well and now I'm back one step on emotional honesty. Time for me to sit with H and have a talk.

G,
I've given some stuff we've chatted about a little thought in the past few days. Yesterday H and I got a chance to talk. NOthing heavy...just that I feel so lonely. His job is a huge drain on our family life and this past week was particularly hard. We were two ships passing in the night. He's made much effort to be with me alone for a few hours at night, but he always falls asleep. He thinks that his presence and the thought should count. Nope...it does not. I've tried to alter the 'fluff & puff' tv shows he says I watch and get interested in men shooting or shipwreck treasures on the History channel.
You suggested that the reason I am struggling with recovery is that I always bring OW into any/all conversations. Yup, this is true.

But, I thought of something else yesterday. I'm concerned that H NEVER thinks she's a consideration. He understands my 'obsession' with her and he totally understands that I feel a tremendous threat by the fact that they still work for the same company. I'm concerned about his lack of entering her into the picture. There must be some common ground. I'm a mess because he originally brought her into our marriage. He wants to remove her and I cannot. Not until he changes jobs or she moves to Tahiti. He's working on the job change but it's really a slow process. I'm not really complaining...just thinking. Is it really so horrible that I include her or is it horrible that he NEVER does? Really, somewhere there must be a middle ground. Ok, this is not really making sense. I simply needed to vent a little.

We had a great day yesterday. We're working on our kitchen and we were able to work together yesterday. But, there is this thing that hangs in the air. A fear of closeness. He seems so guarded and I'm sure I do to him too. I'm not ready yet to totally let him in. Not for any other reason than the fact that she's still at the company and still has access to him at any time. He's absolutely adament that her presence in the same zip code is NOT a factor for him at all. That's odd to me. He wants me to think that because he's decided it is over...that it really is. Are people really that basic? Who knows. I'm not really looking for an answer, and I'm really ok. Just waiting for the day when he changes jobs and we begin moving forward again.

I have a little frustration right now. Now with H...but with his family. His sister is in a bit of a bind financially and maritally. She lives an hour away. Here it is, a holiday and she's asked him to come up to her house ALONE and look over some stuff and advise her. Great!!! His family has NEVER done anything to remotely include me and they have this weird sense of privacy that they are very guarded about. So, now what do I do? I'm not invited and I'd feel like a dork if he called to say "I'm not coming if W is not invited." Frustration!!!!

Hi Fiori,
Just came back from mini vacation.
Sorry to hear about your frustrations - has it been a full moon? I've got plenty frustration in one day to last me all week.

About the family issue - is this a lovebuster for you? It appears there is some resentment towards your H and his family for the way they have treated you. You probably can't change the family behavior but you can work with H's behavior through the LB concept. I recently completed the Wife's LB questionnaire and realized my H's independent thinking really bothers me. There are two things that came up in questionnaire and I still haven't sat down to talk to H yet.

Here's my MC advice. Each spouse works at different pace. I could not expect my spouse to work at my pace just as he had to give me my time to heal. Dr. Phil's advice to WS - you keep working at it and it takes as long as it takes for BS to feel secure in R. Fiori, I don't think you should feel guilty about not being ready to give all of you or move to next step. You have to do this when you feel ready. Sorry for more advice!

I hope you have a better day tomorrow. I think I'm going to attempt to talk to H about questionnaire (we're both home).

G