I am having a bit of difficulty wrapping my brain around a concept that seems to be critical for me to completely buy into in order to move forward with recovery. I'm hoping that some of you who have done this can shed some light for me.

We have been counseling weekly with SH for about a month, and his contention is that my FWW committed adultery because "she failed to protect her weaknesses". This makes sense to my wife apparently, but something just doesn't quite seem complete to me. This explanation seems to me to mean that it was almost something of an accident, or that she was in some way a victim in this.

My feeling is that the adultery was a result not of something she fell a** backwards into, rather something she deliberately chose. SH disagrees with this assessment, hence my being stuck.

He does agree that she made the choice, but contends that she did so "under the influence". My contention is that she made a conscious, sober choice at the outset of their relationship to continue with it even as she knew that what she was doing was wrong.

I will grant that she was not herself or thinking clearly when she decided to start F-ing him, but that was 5 months or so into it.

I believe that when they first started "flirting" as FWW puts it, that she chose the path of infidelity. When he first directly hit on her, when he first gave her inappropriate gifts for her birthday, that she made a sober choice to start deceiving me and pursue this relationship. I will never know what was in her mind at the time, but I can't seem to make this make sense.

SH gives hypothetical examples of co-workers getting too close while working on a long stressful project and being unable to resist acting on their biologiical impulses. FWW and RB were only occasional part time co-workers. Semantics? Maybe. I do strongly believe that there are some among us that would NEVER choose to commit adultery regardless of how strong an attraction was there. That there is a strength of character or moral fiber or whatever, that exists in some of us that simply will not allow that level of closeness to develop. Am I out of my mind on this?

I have been in situations where there were attractive female friends and co-workers both married, and single when I was married, who indicated interest, but I always chose not to act. It is not something I would do. I can't say with 100% certainty that I will NEVER cheat, but I have never in spite of being tempted on a few occasions. And after this, I REALLY can't imagine going there.

If or when I decide it is time to start bedding someone else, I truly believe I would divorce my wife first. Not that I'm planning to do that, I am choosing to stay with FWW to attempt recovery and I hope we make it. Just want to make that clear.

I simply find it difficult to completely buy into the failur to protect as the be all end all explanation for why adultery happens. I believe that there can be many reasons. I believe Patriot92 has stated here on these boards that he cheated because he wanted cheap sex. Though unsavory at the least, I think that's honest.

Do I really have to buy, lock stock and barrel and truly believe in my heart SH's somewhat simplistic (IMO) explanation of why my wife did this?

Is failure to recover the only outcome if I just can't believe that "Letting her guard down" was the only reason she chose this?

I know this was long. I didn't intend it to be so long. For anyone who's made it this far, do you think you can help me?

Thank you.

Peace to all,
TTH

Tell her goodby. She will have one if not many new affairs on you. She is a bad egg. Are you making it to easy for her to get away with having sex with other men????

Stella,

I struggle with this too. Sometimes it feels like there really aren't any consequences or punishment for her in this.

I know at some level she feels bad about what she did, but I can't imagine that it even comes close to what I've endured.

In a sense I guess I have given her a free pass.

There will not ever be another. Of that I am certain.

I feel like SH assessment is a bit over simplistic myself. I think there are MANY reasons people cheat. NOT just because their defenses were down. Honestly, I don't buy that one. God help you if her defenses are ever down again.

My ex cheated because he could and because he wanted to hurt me.
I think some cheat because of the thrill of it. It is a fantasy.
Some do it for the attention they get.
Some do it to fill needs they feel aren't being met and when they start being met by someone else, they go with it.

Your wife had an EA for 5 months before CHOOSING to have sex with the guy. That, to me, is a VERY conscience decision. This was NOT an "oops". and it happened more than once.

I understand your dilemma try.

mlhb

My H and I have talked at length about how his A happened. At first, I think he didn't really intend on it becoming an A...I think it was just nice to have someone's attention and he would flirt back to encourage that attention.

As their EA grew, he began to get some of his ENs met by her. And as he began to get ENs met, he began to do things to ensure that she would keep meeting those needs. For my H...he gave her sex (I know, it sounds crazy for a guy, but he has never had much desire for sex and thus it was something that he did more to keep her involved...and they only did it four times in 3+ years). He admits that he didn't value her much. His A was not about being "in love" with her but more about meeting needs.

The A began to fail when she started to demand HER needs be met and the fantasy kind of fell apart (at least that's part of what I think happened). In addition, I started meeting some of his needs (we had been living apart and then I joined him) and he had a guy friend who started meeting some of the needs as well (conversation). He didn't "need" OW to meet those needs anymore and he didn't want to have to meet her needs at all so it ended.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think that the needs may vary through the relationship...it may begin as attention and end with many ENs being met by OP...I don't think that many people go out "looking" for an A, but I think that they aren't careful in the beginning and allow (by choice) themselves to create a relationship with someone else where their needs are met outside of their marriage.

btw Try,

I don't think that you HAVE to believe what SH says. He has lots of experience, but he is also human. And really, you need to look at whether or not the reason for the A is a huge sticking point. I get that you must understand how it happened to guard against it in the future, but maybe implementing all of the MB philosophy is enough. Maybe there is no real complete UNDERSTANDING of what drives someone to cheat.

I do think that EVERYONE is capable of it. Even those of us who feel like we would never do it. Given the right circumstances, I think it is probable that ANYONE could fall into an A...and I mean FALL because of the idea that their intention wasn't: Ooooh, I know, I'm going to have an affair and completely mess up my marriage and intentionally harm the person that I love all for the sake of some good times.

I agree with your take on this.

Look, the Harley's job is to save marriages (for the most part). Allowing for some understandable reason why a WS decided to rut with another person helps to this end. Do I agree with their take on why affairs start...more often than not...no. I tend to look at many things from a legal standpoint...most affairs would be considered premeditated. Show me an affair where a spouse did not take any steps to hide their actions...where they did not conspire to commit this crime...and I may feel differently about THAT affair.

I think what is off here is that a lot of people do not really know the character of their spouses until something like this happens.

TryTooHard - if you "buy into" this sort of nonsense, then by all means, head directly to divorce court.

If, on the other hand, you DO want to recover your marriage with your wife, then you have to choose to ignore that sort of "helpful" advice.

So the question remains, what DO you want to do?

If it is recovery, then you have to COMMIT to recovery.

So does your wife.

That's the "easy way of putting it, the "practice" of it is much more complicated and stressful because the recovery journey is both long (average of two years) and complete with times of "ups and downs" (hence the analogy to a "roller coaster")


Having said that, let's look briefly at what you posted and I'll offer you my "take" on your areas of question.


This is a "base tenet" of MB that I, having lived through the "wonderful experience" of infidelity, disagree with.

You can't "protect your weakenessess" if you don't know what they are or if you even have any. This is sort of saying, imho, that you should have locked the barn door AFTER the horse got out, but you didn't know that the dumb horse would leave it's "cushy" barn, complete with all the essentials it needs (i.e., protection, food, water, etc.).

Granted, AFTER THE FACT, we learn about potential areas of weakness and what we can do protect against future occurances of "letting the horse out," but that does little to "excuse" the CHOICE to commit adultery. People are not horses. People assess situations and then CHOOSE their responses and courses of action. It is NOT, imho, a matter of "human nature," it is a matter of consciously choosing to disobey the clear prohibitive command of God. Now, if you and your wife don't believe in God, then His commands are "meaningless" and the only reason to believe that adultery might be "wrong" is self-determined. By that I mean that if an "external" standard of behavior is NOT authoritative, and the individual can define for themselve whatever they want to as their own standard of what is "right and wrong" for themselves, then they are free to choose something as being "right" for themselves even if someone else might consider it to be "wrong." In other words, the standards become "relative," not "absolute."



It was no accident. Getting raped against her will would be an "accident." The choice to engage in adultery is also often called a "mistake" by recovering Wayward Spouse. Granted it WAS a "mistake" to choose wrong behavior over good behavior, it was not a "mistaken" choice. It was a willful, purposeful, choice that they determined to be "right" for the moment, the month, or the years of the affair. They "redefined" right and wrong to enable them to ACT on the choice or the "feelings," to say nothing about the choice to render the VOWS of marriage meaningless and to repudiate the COVENANT of marriage as a willful choice "to forsake all others, until death do us part."




With all due respect to Steve, I strongly disagee with this opinion. More to follow after the next quotation.



"Under the influence" is the age old way to "excuse bad or criminal behavior, imho. I'm sorry, but I don't care if it is adultery or DUI or drugs or whatever, the person CHOOSES the "influence" and ACTS on the influence, and innocent people get hurt. This "under the influence" stuff is garbage to me. It provides a means to "avoid" personal responsibility for our choices and actions.


For "Class II," entangeled affairs, there IS an "influence" that is part of the MB philosophy. That influence is called "
Emotional Needs" and it's attendant "Love Bank." But here's where I acknowledge the realty Emotional Needs and who people respond emotionally to their being met by some or not being met by someone, BUT I also simultaneously believe that LOVE is a CHOICE, not simply an emotional reaction that then "excuses" our responsive choices. We CHOOSE. We are thinking beings who exercise our "free will" and make choices.



Once again I understand the emotional involvement and the "effects" of having needs met by someone other than your spouse, but I do not "buy into" the idea of "biological impulses" as the CAUSE of infidelity. The CAUSE is a lack of, or poorly accepted, STANDARDS and BOUNDARIES. It comes back to the issue of "submitting oneself" or not submitting ones self, BY CHOICE, to a set of standards that says "You will NOT commit adultery." Period. No matter what you are "feeling," you are the "god" of your life and you do not have the right to disobey the standard of FIDELITY in marriage.

People are NOT animals. People's actions are NOT "mandated" by biological impulses. We CHOOSE. We can act or not act on our feelings, but they do NOT control us so that we are not "responsible" for our actions. That's like saying, "Well, the devil MADE me do it, therefore I'm not really responsible for what I did." We are NOT talking about mentally ill people here, we are talking about people who knowing choose "wrong" because "it's what they want."



Count me in this group. I remained faithful to my vows and marriage for 6 years of celibacy while my wife was in her affair.
One of her friends told her that "no man could do that" so that I "must" be having an affair of my own. My wife, who DOES know me, told her, "no, he isn't and he won't." That doesn't make me a "saint." All it makes me is someone who believes in his vows and who believes in submitting my "will" to God's will, even when it hurts or when tempted.



I can't speak for you. I can only tell you that I didn't, and my wife and are now "Recovered." It took us almost 6 years, but we "got there."



No. I don't believe that for one minute.

Failure to recover is due to many factors, but there ARE things that must be done to enhance recovery and not detract from positive gains. I'm sure you already know many of them, but if not, they can be listed.

So let's just toss out the FIRST, and most important "thing to do" for recovery and for an eventual recovered marriage. The WS MUST have complete and total NO CONTACT with the former affair partner....for the rest of her life. Having said that, it is MOST important while IN recovery, and not as important (though still highly preferable) after the marriage has reached Recovered. The reason is by then, you are in love again, the Standards and Boundaries are clearly known and embraced, and TIME has put the affair partner into the light of 'reality' and the flaws are more prominent than the former fantasy.


God bless.

You should read Lexxy's posts somewhere in the middle of my recovery thread. She does a pretty good job of describing the slippery descent into adultery.

I fall somewhere in the middle of SH's simplistic explaination and your "evil intent" at this point, although at one point I was fully in the "evil intent" camp.

I don't believe my W set out to have an A and hurt me and damage our M. I do understand that she CHOSE to have one regardless of the foreseeable damage it would do to our marriage. She was fully aware of wrongness of her actions when she made the decision, but she was NOT at that time the same person I had lived with for 15 years. There were incremental steps in between fidelity and infidelity, and many rationalizations and mental gymnastics that lead the WS into an A. Does it excuse it? No, not in my mind. Nor does it justify it, but it does somewhat EXPLAIN it.

I spent months trying to get my head around this question, and to some extent still try. But I think the bottom line is that there IS NO justifyable, acceptable reason for infidelity. There isn't anything that is going to make this fall into place in the BS's head and have them coming away going "oh! ya, I get it now, it was because. . . (insert blather!)" It aint gonna happen.

I think this is what MyRev refers to when he states that the lot of the BS involves acquiring the taste for feces.

You get to decide. Is the lingering taste of [censored] in your mouth worth it? Right now, you're dealing with a strong taste, and it is overtaking your senses. With time, you just occasionally come across a bit of material stuck in your teeth and you spit it out and move on. You become a little more able to taste the good things in life untainted. But it does take time. Eventually, you'll just get worn out thinking about it so much because it really is futile.

However, if you do figure it out, be sure to share!

Try - I think it's a combination myself.

Little by little a WS moves a boundary and allows the OP to start meeting their needs - slowly, imperceptively at first.

But then there comes a point where they make a clear choice to commit adultery and they commit to the affair.

So IMO it's a bit of both - a failure to protect boundaries and even to recognise weaknesses coupled with an eventual decision.

That would be my wife's view as well.

I have stated numerous times that it was (Ibeleive) dr Frank Pittman stated it best by saying that the choice to commit adultry happens long before the act itself. The wayward is simply waiting for the time and place to present itself.
If it can be done with a measure of deniabilty, such as under the influence or whatever, so much the better!!

I don't buy into the "poor me" victum. It's just another lie!!!!

All blessings,
Jerry

I agree 100%.

Try, I'm in similar shoes. Coaching with SH for about a month. Understandably, I get the same advice from him. Here's the difference for me. The A didn't start when my wife seduced OM for the first time. The A started when she started talking to OM in a way, and about things, that would have sent me through the roof. She CHOSE to do that, no doubt about it, and did it for 12 months before she seduced him. I often asked her "what did you make up about me to make our M look so bad to justify what you were talking to him about"? I was shocked to hear the answers.

Two things about what SH says about her failure to protect against her weakness stay with me. It was her "weakness" and her "failure", not mine. We're all weak, but she chose to act on it. That is where she failed me. She has to believe she failed me, and I believe she does. No free pass there. For me, Recovery doesn't mean justifying what happened in the past, or letting her off the proverbial hook, simply due to an innate weakness. It's about having the strength of character to know it, see it, and avoid it in the future. To someone else's point, "the horse has left the barn already". For me, Recovery does mean learning to cope with what happened, and then learning exactly what led to it in order to avoid it. This applies to both her and me.

Sounds good on paper brother, and I am by no means there yet. Just thought I'd chime in because I think we're in the same place.

Hang in there.

Z-

I am a FWW and I completely agree that, at least in my case, it was an absolute clear choice I made. I didn't get suckered into it. It wasn't because I was weak. I made a choice ( horrible choice). Maybe I have more confidence in the ability of people to make choices but I have a hard time with "my weakness made me do it."

After reading bk's post, I also wanted to add that I don't agree that WS's are just living their lives waiting for the opportunity to come knocking at their door. It is a choice that is made, but not one they have been sitting around plotting.

Well I totally disagree that the wayward is looking for an opportunity.

Good grief.

NO WAY a wayward is thinking, "Hmmmm, someday I'm gonna want to commit adultery...Can't wait til I get my shot!"

No one says, "Here I go into the fog...I sure hope I destroy my family!"


Well I don't buy that either.

For my FWW it was a very definite choice! I had confronted her. I had confronted him. I had confronted them. Stop what you are doing. Some time after d-day she said "that is what I wanted and I didn't care who I hurt to get it" and "there is nothing more you could have done to prevent it". Doesn't that take your breath away? I doubt that many WS are that bluntly honest.

TTH,

Don't get discouraged. I can't express enough that I know how you feel. It is extremely frustrating at this stage to hear something that appears to be a "chicken exit" (IMHO) for your WS behavior.

Take heed to FH's post. There are some great words in there and what I truly like about his posts is that they are filled with hope and light that if the two partners are committed to R, it can happen!

You are in the middle of the "process". You don't have to solve everything in this very moment, nor understand it all. What worked for me was to step outside of it all and have the silent conversation about "what if this were true or had weight". For example, what if he has an addiction and that is causing him to act out? And then take it layer by layer. This is a person that I care about and therefore care if he is hurting from addiction. Never do I want to give him an excuse, but I do want to find some sort of understanding of where he is coming from.

Anyway, I am in the middle of the process too so I'm not an expert but I just wanted to pipe in and tell you that you are not alone and to hang in there!

The Harley explanation is not complete for me. Though, there are parts that carry weight.

I do believe Emotional needs can be very powerful. I do believe feeling good can be very addictive. I believe boundaries are critical. They insure the addictiveness never gets a shot at occurring.

If a boundary gets crossed, I also believe different people have different willpower and handle temptation differently. I also believe how strong or weak a person is when they are tempted can have an effect.

My struggle is I have to believe in my W's boundaries. I not only carry the risk for my lack of boundaries, but, also hers.

I agree. Everyone makes a series of choices, and those choices can go from ONSs to LTAs. And I agree with BK that it's a mixture of a number of things that make it easier for some to "choose" to go down that path. As is character weaknesses, starving for attention from lack of needs, and then selfishly going outside the marriage instead of doing the right things to get the needs met. Even if the other spouse is trying to meet the waywards needs at home this can happen. Or even the ones who could live their lives having their cake and eating it too, just because they are just that selfish and sinful.

I cheated on my spouse once when I kissed another man a few years back. And even though I had a few drinks in me, I knew I was making a sober choice to do what I did. And I wasn't looking for an affair, but I was vulnerable from lack of needs being met and I made the choice to let someone "try" to fill that for me. It was a bad choice. A selfish, disrepecting my spouse choice.

I am ashamed that I just didn't have the courage to stand up for my needs instead of taking a selfish, thoughtless and destructive choice instead. As someone said in another post earlier, it's like burning down the whole house when just the bathroom needed remodeling. People need not be so afraid of conflict, it leads to intimacy.




Well, I have to disagree, to a point, on this one. I think some people do allow theirselves to fall into affairs and they weren't looking for one beforehand. HOWEVER, there are some that do think if the right opportunity landed in their lap, that they would take it. And then you have the ones who do, on occassion, or all the time, look to cheat with whoever they can get.

It takes all kinds. Most know it's "wrong" because they hide it. They weren't just not protecting their weaknesses, they were protecting theirselves from the consequences of their choices to get what they desired at whatever expense. Some of these choices are actually weighed and thought out methodically.

The only part of "aware of my weaknesses" that I learned from MB is that before MB, I never would have thought twice about the dangers of spending recreational time with the opposite sex, or having personal conversations with men about their personal problems at home. I see how those things can sneak up on you and start people down the rabbit hole to an affair, but it's not like that with everyone. Some just do it. And even the ones who go down the rabbit hole that way, they are making a series of consious decisions on the way down, they know it's wrong, they lie and hide it. They make choices. Yes, they were aware they were making choices.

That's my 2 cents.

Hmmmmm, so why do you beleive that the ws would stop dropping those boundaries, unless it was to facilitate the temptations they are faced with?(ahead of time)

Boundaries,IMHO, are dropped to bring one closer to committment of the real ideation of actually commiting A. I don't think anyone starts out with the notion that " I beleive I'm capable of A."

It's and inch by inch process, and requires the wayward to to release and diminish every core boundary they ever had to accomplish the ultimate goal. Satan is pretty good at helping one to do this with marvelous but unfounded rationalizations.

Obviously, when one is involved with A, they are not exactly walking with "God".

BK, I never said one was "LOOKING" for the opportunity, but rather, "ALLOWING" the opportunity to present itself!

All of this occuring with the dropping of one boundary after another. I saw it in my FWW, but didn't know what to make of it at the time. I was clueless!!

All Blessings,
Jerry

Well Jerry I DO believe I'm capable of an affair. I believe every one is. The ONLY protection I have is maintaining my boundaries and understanding adultery and how SUBTLE those shifts are helps as well.

Almost every WS if they could see the end from the beginning would flee adultery - that's a benefit of being MB educated.

Sin comes candy coated Jerry - like the frog on the stove - boundaries shift without you realising it until you are hooked and make an overt decision.


I don't believe a wayward is THAT calculating at first until they have chosen their sin.

You're right BK. The process as I have stated is done one inch at a time, until the CHOICE is ultimately made, generally speaking, well in advance of the actual "act."

After the line is crossed, all of the calculating and deceipt are the fuel that keeps the fires of the fantasy burning.

then it becomes an addiction. An addiction to the fantasy.
JMHO.

All blessings,
Jerry

Sorry meant to notify mods

Stellakat

Are we having a bad night?

Whom did you wish to turn into the Mods, me or MEDC?

All blessings,'Jerry

Seeing as the reply was to ForeverHers, I'm guessing it was him Jerry. LOL.

FH...so...JERRY is the name. HM...

Yes I am feeling a little aggressive tonight. Dont know why.

Oh course,
I should have guessed. That FH is such a troublemaker!


All Blesiings,
Jerry

Would you like to eplore why???

Yes it's Jerry,
I don't think I've hid that.

all Blessings.
Jerry

Stellakat

Don't mess up what is good. Rreceive it as a gift

all blessings,
Jerry

OK NOW I am really LMAO.

This will work well with your sparkling personality and bedside manner.

Great point Jerry. I have to learn to recieve since it is truly a gift. I am not used to things going so well. Maybe I want to MAKE the other shoe drop before it DOES drop.

I know what it is too. I am afraid that as soon as I start getting truly content, balanced, and happy and accomplishing goals i had for years, then God is going to give me cancer again and i will die and it will all be for nothing.

I cant believe I am writing this but this is what I feel on some level...

OH,lol,lol Kahuna!!!! The cats are looking at me as I sob with laughter!!!!

Yes, I guess I am not ready for that yet!!!!!LOL!

I feel now that: If I stay miserable or at least a little bit miserable then maybe God will let me live.

This is how I feel tonight but this does not make any sense.

Members, this thread is about helping TryTooHard in MARRIAGE BUILDING. Thank you.

...never mind...

Actually,
I had to take my cat to the vet yesterday, and put him down.

Steelar, my MIL had lung cancer about eight years ago, and at 78 years old we thought surely this was it.

My oldest son lived in Manhatted and heard of a staute of the Virgin Mary that was weeping tears of oil from her eyes.
He went to this place and captured some of this oil in a small vile.

We put a cross over the entrance of her door, soaked in this oil.
She had her surgery and the Dr. was not very optomistic.

She refused chemo and radiation and survived eight more years with no return of cancer. I can't say what saved her, but I have my very strong beliefs!

We ultimately lost her on Christmas Eve, 2006.

God had a plan for her, as He does for all of us. His will always prevails. Talk to Him!!

All Blessings,
Jerry

So sorry about the cat. I would feel terrible when that happens to mine. Shall I erace my posts? They are not helping the OP.

And again Jerry thank you for pointing me to the best lifecoach there is to speak with, God. Yes I will.

Hi TTH

I agree with both SH and MEDC in this, bizarrely.

Adultery is a choice HOW.EV.ER. it is not a single choice. Your W did not think one morning " he's got tight buns I think I will throw away all the goodness in my life to bang him".

Its usually a loooong sequence of choices ( that can be made pretty quickly), that spiral into deeper and deeper darkness until the WS has convinced themself that lying in bed with OP is a great thing to do.

Every choice is made easier by the ever-increasing $LB deposits by OP.

So it's a choice but not a single one.

Also "zooming out" and de-personalising adultery is an absolute essential if marriages are to be recovered after adultery. Steve and the Harleys play down the " insult" attribute of an affair to the point almost where "its a bad but unintended thing that happened let spark it and move on".

That is the only way to start recovery IME. No WS would sign up for a lifetime of eating humble pie , and what kind of marriage would that lead to anyway ?

So I agree with both camps: Its a set of choices: no victimhood for the WS here, BUT it wasn't often a hostile act directed at the WS, and that is highligted in early recovery to give it any kind of chance.

JMO

TTH,

Been reading along. I'll offer some thoughts which are along the lines of some of the posts you have already received.

I like to think there is a balance or symmetry to things.

All here agree that recovery is not simple or straighforward. it takes time, there are ups and downs, and it is definitely nonlinear.

My take on getting into an affair is that it is much like recovery: not simple or straightforward, it often takes time and there are ups and downs and it is definitely nonlinear.

Having said that, I think SH and the MB approach start with the simplest of building blocks when addressing recovery of a marriage. Why? It is too easy to get bogged down in the morase of details that make up an affair. Further, one MUST START SOMEWHERE, if recovery is what both parties seek.

Further, the idea of protecting ones boundaries naturally leads to introspection on the part of the WS, which leads to insight, which leads to changes in perspective, which eventually leads to a WS that becomes a FWS; Better yet a FWS that better understands themselves, how they have dealt with issues in the past and how to more productively deal with them in the future.

It seems to me that is a lot to ask, so one starts with the simple things.

From the BS side, I don't think you have to "swallow" that she failed to protect her boundaries. What you need to do is watch and participate in the PROCESS, that starts with a discussion of boundaries and "core" beliefs.

From all that I have seen on this site, the FWS over time peels away excuses, rationalizations, like an onion skin. But, it starts with boundaries and core beliefs.

Why did your W have an affair? She wanted to. She may have not wanted the consequences or for you to find out, because she did not want to lose you, but she wanted to. The WHY? of this simple statement is more complex and a good starting point is boundaries.

Several things have struck me over the years. One is how predictable and repeatable affairs are with regard to rationalization, verbal statements, behaviors. The other is how deceptive MB is. It seems simple and formalistic. It is not.

It is very subtle, many miss this. Why they do I don't understand. Perhaps they view the world in black and white. But, the subtle nuances of the MB approach are powerful and very nonlinear.

I mean in all reality there are some very surefire ways to stop affairs: 1. Kill the parties involved. 2. Walk away and never attempt to save the marriage. Both for sure end the affair. One absolutely, the other because it isn't an affair if the WS is no longer married.

However, if one wants to attempt to save a marriage, that requires some very subtle things on the part of the WS and the BS. Perspectives have to change on the part of both of them, wounds have to heal, deep and complex failure points in the personality need to be addressed, and new approaches to marriage adopted. These are not simple tasks, hence MB is not a simple formalistic approach. What MB is though is organized.

Those are my thoughts. So to answer your question,not you don't have to believe it is just simply her protecting her boundaries, although if one boundary is fidelity and she protects it, it is unlikely she will cheat right? I mean DUH!

In my mind the answer to your question, is that recovery is contingent on changes of perspective, new awareness of each other, and a coming together that supports each of you. That my friend is a PROCESS, not a matter of belief.

Well, that is my $0.02.

God Bless,

JL

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ENOUGH!!!!!!!!

I will remind folks AGAIN, we are here to MARRIAGE BUILD. If you have something helpful to share with TryTooHard on his thread, please do so. Thank you.

Maverick, have it your way. If one is not allowed to respond to an attack by someone else, AND you leave SOME references to that attack on the thread without also making them "disappear," there is little point in helping anyone when there may be disagreements in the advice offered.

Therefore, I will withhold further comments or suggestions so that no one has to "disagree" with anything.




TTH - my previous post will stand on it's own. Sincere best wishes for your recovery efforts. I will bow out of commenting further on the things that may be troubling you in your paid counseling. Just understand that the "tools" are to be used to help with recovery, not to be the "end all" of the process.

God bless.

I forgot to mention in my last post that my husband and I are also in counseling with Steve Harley, Jr.

The first thing we all discussed was "How I allowed it to happen". Meaning, my husband was suppose to tell me how he let himself get involved in infidelity.

A big part of my husband's response to that was that "he allowed others to enter his life through weak boundries founded in lack of awareness of my weaknesses".

We had to talk about this over several meetings because that was just not good enough for me, because I am positive that my husband was "aware" that screwing someone else while committed to me was wrong. And that my husband was not so weak and unaware that he didn't know what he was doing was wrong. Choices, choices, choices.

So while talking with Steve again this morning, this is what he told me. He said my husband was "under the influence". I didn't buy that either until he told me that "he was under the influence of his own selfishness". Now that I bought.

One more thing....a T/J of sorts.....

I just have to give snaps for FH's first post on this thread and many other posts on other threads that he's posted lately.

FH...I have seriously been impressed with the posts that you have made on several threads around here in the last few weeks. Kudos to you.

Thanks all who have responded. I think this is helping. Sorry I heven't been around to reply more, but I'm trying to save my a** business wise and need to spend time doing just that. I am reading when I get the chance, and will have more time later to reply. But keep it coming. And thank you again.

So, to dig a bit deeper. Do FWW and I have to agree on the "reason" the adultery "happened" for this recovery to work?

It seems like SH is hesitant to get to the next step of recovery until we come to consensus on this. I'm not sure if explaining away her intentional choice to do this with "failure to protect her weaknesses" isn't just sort of a cop out.

The fact is, when she decided to attract and pursue that Rat B*stard for affection or whatever, she chose to end our marriage. That is what has happened. Whether we "recover" or not, that once pure and sacred bond has been broken. Broken intentionally. Broken permanently.

I have such grief and anguish over the decisions which she made over an extended period of time. The fact is that she made these hurtful destructive decisions every minute of every day for 10 months or so plus the 4 or 5 months of continued deceit until eventually FINALLY spilling the beans to me a few weeks ago.

I am having real difficulty feeling anything for her besides sadness and pity. Certainly not the level of respect and hope that once existed in spades.

Please help me figure out how to figure this out...

Play this game with me:

Think up a reason you would accept. Think up a scenario, no matter how henious, where you would say "Oh! Ya, that adultery was reasonable and justified! THAT person was right in cheating on thier spouse!"

Keep thinking.

Come on, you can come up with at least ONE can't you?

Didn't think so.

I'm suprised SH is focusing so much on this point seeing as how most of his program seems devoted to ACTION. Understanding the reason for infidelity seems very much less important than figuring out how to recover from it and then building a good, affair-proof marriage.

Also, SH has admittedly never experienced infidelity. So no matter what he says, he says it as an OBSERVER. He does not, CAN NOT truly understand the pain of infidelity. On the one hand, that is a benefit to him, as he is "outside the box" so to speak, but on the other hand, he cannot actually know the turmoil. This leads him to be somewhat trite about the BS' pain in some respects, imo. But at the end of the day, the deal is you get to decide, you either try to get over it and move on with your W, or you don't.

If you want to recover your marriage, you are going to have to accept the idea that what your W did was wrong. That she made a mistake. It is her job to show you that she does view it as a mistake, and do whatever it takes to make you comfortable that she will not repeat that mistake. Really, the best you can hope for now is that there will never AGAIN be infidelity in your life. NOTHING you do is going to erase what has happened, with your W, or without her.

I think in some respects the search for understanding the reasons why is an attempt to UNDO the A. In the sense that if we can find some way to understand WHY this happened, then we will have found the excuse, the justification. That there was a reason for what was done that we can accept, and through accepting we will come to see that WS had cause.

Take murder for instance. There are all kinds of situations where we can accept that killing someone was just. Most of us can readily imagine many different situation where a human is killed by another human that does not make us view the killer as a horrible monster, or even that they made a mistake. It is not that way with adultery, is it? In each and every instance of adultery, you may realize that yes the marriage was a mess, yes the BS was a horrible spouse, but in the end, the same conclusion is always drawn: the WS was not RIGHT in cheating. They should have divorced, then moved on if they were so unhappy, if the M was that dysfunctional.

Fidelity is about self, really. Its about ones ability to keep one's solemn word. Infidelity at its heart is the failure of the WS. Its a very selfish act, and it reveals a very ugly truth about the WS. It really is not much about the BS, is it? Your W failed, there is no way around that. She is not what you thought she was. You have to come to terms with that, and decide if you think she has it in her to BECOME what she should have been. If you feel she is capable of learning from her utmost failure and overcoming it, or not.

I am always amazed at what people are expected to accept to get over affairs. If she failed to protect herself then there is nothing you can ever do to stop her from having another affair. She just might not be able to protect herself.

I could understand if a person talks to another person and starts to have feelings for them. I can totally understand how that can happen. You may even admire the OP and respect them and they make you feel good.

But I guess all of that goes out the door when you start having sex with them. Nobody on the planet can tell me a person starts to boff another person that they "fell into it". They know it is wrong but they don't care. It is a conscience desision to do it and nothing else.

But then we start hearing about "fog". That is the term used on this site to explain away premediated decisions to have sex with someone outside the marriage. I think everyone on the planet knows that if you start bumping uglies with another person it is wrong if you are married and they are not your spouse.

For me I could handle a EA or anything else she threw at me. But not a PA.


This is the part you have to get over if you are to stay married. I divorced my wife because we had dicussed this before. I told her if she had sex with another guy she would be telling me that she wants a divorce.

I guess maybe that is why she lied about it so much. To me for a guy it is the PA that is what is so hard to get over. The fact that your wife gives it up for another guy.

I think recovery depends on what kind of a person you are. I see people on here who can forgive anything no matter how bad it was and they can move forward. For some others that is hard to do.

I don't think it is impossible to recover but give yourself a break. This is very hard to do and it is going to take a while.

I read a very good book out there called "Torn Assunder" by David Carder. In it he is admannt that for the couple to recover, it is imperative that the WS understands the "Why" of the affair.

His reasoning behind this is fairly simple. How does one affair proof their M with new and stronger boundaries unless they understand what boundaries they lacked that led to the affair?

I think this is what SH is trying to do here. The recovered M has to have a new and better foundation so it won't come down like a house of cards in the first windstorm.

JMHO

All Blessings,
Jerry

Discussing the "why it happened" is an action and a very necessary part of recovery. I agree with Jerry's assessment about why. Some introspection from the WS to see how and why they did what they did is important so that they can tell us how they will protect those boundaries, that they didn't protect, in the future.

Steve understands that "recovery" has to happen before you can really work on the marriage.

Steve has more in store for Try than just the "why". That is just the first step in trying to recover. These steps have to be worked through, for me, to want to invest further in the marriage. My husband, and I at times, tried on some levels, to make the marriage work before we actually did the recovery work. And that wasn't working for me. Going through these steps will help tremendously I think.

TTH,

I still believe that it is a combination of things. Your WW met someone. She probably enjoyed the attention (as most of us do). She reciprocated to continue to get the attention she wanted (selfish). As she and OM built their relationship (meeting needs for attention), they started to enjoy the feeling of having that EN met. I think after the establishment of meeting at least one EN successfully, a PA follows as an act of solidarity? that they both recognize their pleasure in having their needs met.

I think it starts without intention...but there is a level of recognition that is lacking before you have been through adultery. My brother doesn't believe that he or his wife would EVER cheat. I believe they are both susceptible and moreso because they wouldn't notice the subtle shift from "just friends" to "more" soon enough to stop it.

Yes, you can stop an A anytime...before it happens or during...but the awareness that you are slipping into a dangerous space where your needs may be met by another isn't always present prior to REALLY LOOKING at how affairs begin. In that sense, we are all "victims" of ignorance if we don't see the beginning of a potential A. Once it has started, I think it's harder to say no.

Our best protection against an A is to recognize that we are ALL capable of following that path and that we must ALWAYS guard against it. I'm not terribly religious, but it's easy to see how some might regard the temptation as the work of the devil. And I really believe that it is the temptation combined with the opportunity that is our downfall.

And btw Try....I personally plan to go slow through these steps and not rush through them. I think it's important to take your time and make sure that you are comfortable that each step is worked through enough to get all your questions answered, and that you're comfortable with it, so that there's not much lingering later down the road.

All that lingering stuff, among many other things, is what kept my walls up and made it very difficult to give or accept love deposits. And of course it will take time to work through all the emotional turmoil, but I at least want to do it slow and right.

I think it is very important for people to realize not all affairs are of the rabbit hole kind, where they move their boundaries little by little until they end up in someone else's bed.

There are people out there who go looking for the cheap thrills, or who fantasize about having an affair and will jump on the opportunity if it presents itself.

I still think, and I always will, that the vast majority of people cheat primarily for the thrill of screwing someone new or different.

That's why people sleep around when they are single, and I don't think a wedding ceremony automatically erases those impulses.

I still think much of this talk of "needs", "attention", and "fog" are used by WS's to alleviate some of their guilt, and by BS's to convince themselves that their WS wasn't as awful as they actually were.

It almost always comes down to, quite simply, "gettin' some".

The truth sucks.

Hi Try,

To me, making a “conscious, sober choice” is the same thing as “failing to protect weaknesses.” In other words, “failing to protect weaknesses” is not a less severe statement (the way I hear it) than “making a conscious, sober choice” to cheat.

Failing to protect oneself IS making an intentional choice. To avoid a future A, the person MUST make a choice to protect his or her weaknesses.

I’m having a little trouble finding the words to explain it exactly the way I mean it. “Protecting one’s weaknesses” is a much bigger statement that makes a much bigger impact on me, as an FWW, than if it were merely a “cop out” statement.

Protecting one’s weaknesses is a very serious practice that everyone should be vigilant about. "Guard your mind." "Guard your heart." Don’t let your guard down, ever.

Obviously, some people are more vigilant than others. There might be as many reasons "why" as there are people. I'm already dizzy from trying to explain this much. I'll leave trying to figure out "why" to another post on another day!

Hope this makes sense!
God bless,
Rose55

IMHO, the Harley's paint the picture that anyone could fall for an affair...it is a matter of failing to protect weaknesses, not a statement of the persons character or integrity. I disagree on both points. There are some people out there that would never, ever, never have an affair. They wouldn't do that to the one they made a promise to. I know people and I am such a person. Given the same set of circumstances as any and every WS or FWS on these boards...some people would not cheat.

This expression has rubbed people the wrong way on these boards. I am not saying that I am better than anyone else here...just that I would never act in this way. I see the benefit to recovery to look at things like the Harley's do...it makes the BS identify with the WS a bit. I just do not agree and have known and do know many people that share the same standards and beliefs.

Mopey and Krazy...

I think you're right that for some the infidelity is about newness, excitement, and "getting some." BUT, if we look at those motivations, can't they almost always be boiled down to some kind of unmet need?

Newness...that's a cop-out. I'm sorry but nobody NEEDS newness. They look to escape their routine or to find the things that lack. Excitement...they are getting a need for admiration, conversation, physical attractiveness and/or affection met. Maybe even recreational companionship. Getting some...the need for SF is met.

I have a friend who is/was a serial adulterer (I no longer talk with him, btw, due to my new understanding of A). I met him when he was married. He tried to "hook up" with me and I rebuked his effort and told my H. It's a long story and I don't want to tj to explain why I spoke with him after that, but it related to my Hs A.

Anyway...he and I talked at length about his As. He had lots of ONSs, a few that lasted several months, and one that lasted for a couple of years that was mainly an EA. He could be called a player and at first glance you would think he was just in it to get some. But he confided that while SF was a need that wasn't met at home, he also had a strong need for affection, admiration, and physical attraction. These were things that he got out of his As. And he agreed that he was "looking" for the next opportunity to cheat. It was premeditated and his justification was that it was about HIM getting HIS needs met. Since his W was unwilling or unable to fulfill those needs, he went elsewhere.

His M, btw, ended. His W had an A as well. I think they had really both withdrew their investments in their M a long time ago.

My point...yes, some people do it willingly, but it's not as simple as just wanting to get laid. It is meeting a need that they are not getting met within their M.

The thing to realize, I think, is that we MUST work to let our spouses know when our needs are not being met, and thus, protect ourselves from wanting to look elsewhere.

Hi mkeverydaycnt -

“just that I would never act in this way.”

I believed this about myself for 46 years before I cheated. I said the same thing before my A, and I have read other FWs write the same thing.

“I...have known and do know many people that share the same standards and beliefs.”

It’s one thing to have standards and beliefs, and another to stay vigilant about following them. I also had (have) standards and beliefs, which I made a conscious choice not to follow by not protecting myself (mind and heart) and my marriage.

“Given the same set of circumstances as any and every WS or FWS on these boards...some people would not cheat.”

That’s what I mean by “some people are more vigilant than others.” Do you feel like at least one reason you would not cheat is because you very carefully and purposely “protect your weaknesses?’ I’ll define “weaknesses” as “human frailties,” (selfishness, greed, lust, for example).

God bless,
Rose

The reason I wouldn't cheat is because it requires a disregard of your vows and morals to do so. I would not do that to another person...let alone the one I chose to love, honor and protect. If you want to call that "protecting my weaknesses" so be it....but I do not have a weakness that would allow me to act in such a fashion.

TTH - I look at the Harley model a little like this. There are two general things that can keep a person from having an A. The first is willpower. Just don't do it. The second is to never be in a situation emotionally or physically that will allow you to have an A.

I like to look at things in terms of numbers. So let's say you need a total of 100 to avoid having an A. I suppose some people may total 100 on willpower alone. For those people, failing to protect your weaknesses (being in situations emotionally or physically that will allow an A) is irrellevant.

The problem is most people don't total 100 on willpower alone. (I would say Harley's research prooves this out) So say they total 80. They need to total another 20 from protecting their weaknesses (never being in a situation emotionally or physically that will allow an A). So if they reach a point in their life that they only total 15 from protecting their weaknesses, they are now susceptible to an A, because their total is now 95, and if an A happens, it is because they failed to protect their weaknesses. That conclusion is made because that is what changed in the person pre A and during their A. Their total from protecting their weaknesses dropped from 20 to 15. Their willpower didn't change one bit.

I suspect what you are struggling with, (as most BH's do) is either "why was my WS's total from willpower only 80 to begin with" or "why did her total from willpower not increase to cover the shortage from failing to protect her weaknesses."

IMHO, these two items are just the facts of the frailty of human beings. I don't think willpower ever rises, usually only falls. (I can give several real world examples of this, if neccessary). I also don't think anyone's willpower ever totals 100. Yes, some may be 99 or 95 or very high, but not 100.

I personally don't think these frailties are evidence of being morally corrupt, but some do.

For me, I don't think its a matter of convincing yourself. Either you think people have these frailties or you don't. For those that do have them either you think that is evidence that they are morally corrupt or you don't.

Anyway, Harley thinks they do have them, so he chalks up an A to failure to protect weaknesses.

Mkeverydaycnt,

O.k. - I was just curious. It could be a matter of semantics and/or definitions. It's just that I also very strongly believed that I didn't have a "weakness" that would allow me to cheat. Maybe I was fooling myself. So, I guess now that once again brings the discussion back to the "whys."

Thanks for responding.
God bless,
Rose

MEDC - I couldn't agree more.

It is my belief that there are some people, sadly a vast minority I guess, that simply will not cheat. I believe I am one of those people. When I was single and had no vow in place to protect (other than to myself, morally), I had several opportunities for sex with married women. And did not go there.

One in particular that comes to mind was a young extremely attractive and engaging wife of a casual friend I had. We got along well, and there was an attraction to her. when she made it clear that she was interested in screwing around with me, my opinion of her plummeted. I no longer found her at all attractive beyond a simple objectification of her physical attributes. But when she revealed her true character to me, I lost all respect for her, thought of her as a common wh*re and actually stopped hanging out with them both. Now bear in mind that I am by no means a prude, but that type of person has just always been completely despicable to me.

Perhaps this is why I struggle so to find a way to see beyond this flaw, as I see it, in FWW's character. It may sound harsh, but it's my reality. I'm finding it difficult to establish even a level of respect for her now.

She says that's not who she is. That it was an aberration of character not her true character. Still I find myself questioning this. I want to believe it. I want to be able to feel deep love for her again, and hope I can. But I still come up with "she did it".

Fact is you either do or you don't and she did. In fact went to great lengths to do it and deceive me about it for a long time.

Ahh, if I just weren't such a hopeless romantic.

I hope that we can be more than a marriage for the sole sake of our 3yo son, with me living in a constant state of Loving Detachment. Plan A aint supposed to be a lifelong strtegy. Sometimes the prospect of that seems more depressing than divorcing, and ruining my son's family.

I really thought our marriage was based in large part on breaking the cycle of broken homes that we both came from. Her from divorce due to infidelity and me from the untimely death of my father at 49yo...

Anyway, again, thanks for all who are taking the time to discuss this topic. It's where I happen to be at right now, and it helps to know I'm not there alone...

Using that logic, nearly everything you've ever done, from important milestones to mundane, everyday activities could be tied to needs. You need to feel clean, so you brush your teeth, for example.


I say newness is the truth, and the "needs" are the cop-out. What about the need for SF with someone new? That's a biggie for a lot of people...big enough to keep many people single. How's the spouse going to fulfill that one? They can't. People, especially men, enjoy sex with new partners. Period. Many choose not to give up that thrill just because they signed a marriage license.



In my experience, when a "player" starts talking about emotions, affection, etc., he's REALLY trying to get some. A last-ditch effort, if you will.

And, of course, the "lack of SF at home" argument is right out of the WS handbook, and rarely true. Most of his "unmet needs" could've been met without actually having sex. Do you think any of those other routes would've interested him? Believe me, when an average guy's getting his knob polished, there isn't a single thought about affection or admiration anywhere between his ears.

Yeah, I know. "What about EA's?"

It's a PA with logistical issues.


ANY sex could be described as a need(s) being met. Are you saying that "just wanting some" is a myth?

If so, I find it odd that EVERY WS chooses sex to meet those needs...even needs besides SF. There are alternatives. If it isn't just about the sex, then WHY does it ALWAYS involve sex? If it's usually about affection, conversation, compliments, etc., shouldn't PA's be a relatively rare thing, given the risk of disease and pregnancy?

It's about the sex, or there wouldn't be sex. Period.

RP - I respectfully disagree with your position. I don't see it at all as willpower and avoiding the environment.

To me willpower is a strength that's required to avoid doing something that you have a natural inclination to do. As in someone who has a natural propensity to cheat would have to exercise willpower if they did not want to do it. For someone who is fundamentally opposed to adultery, willpower would be irrelevant. It simply is not in their nature to cheat.

As for environmental factors, again I go back to the fundamental strength of character or morality. For the inherent cheater, the environment is a risk. For the non-cheater it is not. I believe the decision would be the same. No matter how easy or tempting the opportunity to be unfaithful is, one will choose to do it, one will not.

It is this very belief that at this point (admittedly early on in recovery), I find it impossible not to see as a flaw in FWW. It troubles me to my core that it may in fact be who she was and is.

Is it possible that there can be a genetic propensity to such things? Hence the inability less than 7 years into marriage, for her to break that infidelity cycle?

I hope my son can do it as it has now spanned another generation...

Really sad...

If unmet needs were the cause of affairs, there would be a lot more affairs. That's just ONE of the reasons. Lack of willpower and morals come into play.

I know people who have never had affairs even though there needs were not being met. There are a lot of BSs here that can say that.

Some people don't get their needs met in a marriage and they don't cheat.

TTH,

I believe many of the things you say. I've been in similar situations that you have stated. We have opportunities and did not jump at them.

Are you absolutely positive you can state never?

I have thought all my life that I could say never. I even think I can say never right now. However, I have a seed a doubt. Just enough to make me say I can't say never.

Start backwards. Not from where you are now but situations in life that could be. Start with some of the extremes and work backwards to where you are right now.

You will likely be happy with what you see about yourself. You will also likely have the first seed of doubt you have ever had. You will still lean towards never(I do) but you will get a little more understanding of human nature.

Now where does your wife fit into this.

Krazy - I like what you're saying.

My FWW has told me recently that "it wasn't about the sex at all". That in fact it was really bad sex. (How F-d up is it that the fact that my wife chose to F some scumbag who did a lousy job of F-ing her, is in some bizarre way a relief to me...)

But I question this not being about the sex part. Why then did she continue to envite him over to our home for F-ing?...

I am convinced that for RB, it was always and only about the sex. He made a play for her. She knew it and chose to fulfill his sick and twisted desire, over my sacred and honorable committment to her life.

I can't get past the thought that she was unable to make the right choice due to a fundamental lack of character or whatever we're calling those who will do it...

Well said, Mopey.

Hence my struggle to understand WW's true character...

I agree that meeting needs are only ONE of the things that may motivate an A...but I still stick with the idea that meeting needs is the main motivator. I think that even the most mundane of behaviors are motivated by needs. If not, then why do we do things at all? A bit philosophical for this discussion, but really...it does all boil down to meeting needs, however menial.

Krazy...I love your description of the thoughts of a man while being satisfied...I agree, for MOST men, the EA is just the logistics required to get the PA...for MOST men. My H has very little need for SF and it is actually a need that goes unmet for me. His LTA was fed by a need for conversation. The OW wanted SF so he occasionally would have sex with her so that he could continue to have his needs met...but it wasn't a need he had. It was a need SHE had. I wouldn't believe this except that it has been consistent with our marriage from the start.

Mopey...I agree that there are other factors in having an A. I am a BS and I had MANY unmet needs over the past 11 years of marriage and lots of opportunities to stray and didn't. I chose not to. But I also chose to live without those needs being met. Some people may feel that they cannot live without having their needs met. I think those people tend to be a bit more selfish (thus that most WS are more selfish than their BS).

Try...This discussion is awesome as far as really trying to think about the motivation for an A. But I still think that you will have to come to grips with the fact that you may never really know what drove your W to make the choice to cheat. I think you need to decide (and maybe now is too early to do this), whether or not you can recover your marriage if you never really understand the WHY or the HOW of her A. Can you accept that she may have an internal flaw that allowed the A?

TTH,

I agree with you 100%. You have stated it beautifully.

It's hard for me to wrap my brain around because I would never do this. I certainly would get a divorce before sleeping with anyone else. (or flirting or talking to or whatever)

The reason I can say this is because it is something that I totally believe in and am passionate about. It's a promise I made to my H, a moral and character issue, and I loved him and cherished him and cared for him. (still love him, but don't see him the same anymore.)

We've been togehter for 17 years, married for 15. He had an EA, although I am fairly certain physical activity was involved regardless of the denials.

I am a year post A, started one year ago last week and exposed a year in June. My...how the emotional rollercoaster spins...i am at a totally different point now and question my staying with him and giving him another chance when there are so many questions regarding his behavior still to this day.

We are where we are...good thing we have this place to come too.

It'll never make sense...no matter how we try to put the pieces together....i tend to believe it's because I would never do this and so I can't understand it for any reason. Plus, I am on the other side of it, so that makes it even harder to get.

Hang in there..you seem like a good person..

TJD, I have never said never. I believe I put it in this post, but it may have been another.
At any rate, I would not say that there is a 100% certainty that I never would.

If Jessica Alba offered me a Billion dollars tax free to shag, It would be pretty tempting. I would consult my wife first, however.

If Jessica Said it would have to kept secret, then I don't know.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm basing my statement on how I have lived and the choices I have made thus far. It's really all I have to go on, but the evidence is pretty clear. I'm not a cheater. Can't say with 100% certainty that I never will be, but I think I'm about as close as one can get...

Your point IS well taken though.

Thanks for chiming in.

Well, I don't know if its my position as much as I think its what the Harley model is trying to convey, but, that's cool.

I don't know that I can reach the same conclusion about willpower. For me, its not about what you are naturally inclined to do. Its about leading with logic and/or principles rather than feelings and/or urges when making decisions. But again, its fine with me if you disagree.

We basically end up at the same point, just on different sides in terms of conclusions.

FWIW, I don't think you have to solve this now. Your 3 weeks out from your WW admitting it was an PA and you're trying to decide if you have a fundamental road block to recovery. Why? If you answer this question and you determine her A is not because of a failure to protect weaknesses, are you going to quit working at it? If I have learned anything from this whole ordeal, its to stop trying to solve what I think will be next year's problem today.

Don't you think it might work out better if you wait to decide if you can ever overcome this flaw after you work the program with an open mind for about six months. I can't help but think if your wife is truly repentent and truly works the program an answer will come to you.

Just my two cents

This is what I struggle with also Try. I warned my WW repeatedly that the OM in our sitch was a player and I guaranteed her he had women on the side due to his living arrangements (1000 miles from his W while he travels from job to job every couple years) and I guaranteed her he would try something with her. One of the guys she works with even warned her early on that OM was "always fishin" and WW would always say "I'm a big girl and would end our friendship if he tries something". Yeah right.

Even though I would kill to be in the same place as you with where my wife would be actively participating in recovery (I'm not there yet), I still struggle with whether I even want to try.

I read in "after the affair" that you shouldn't make any future decisions while the emotions are so raw. You can always divorce later, but don't rush into that. That's what I'm doing and it seems like good advise in your sitch also.

RP - very incisive.

I think we may be dealing with semantics a bit on this rather than a fundamental difference of opinion.

As for trying to solve this now, I don't think I'm expecting to categorically determine the answer immediately. I am aware that it's a process, and I am hanging in there making an impressive effort if I do say, at recovering.

We had a very romantic evening last night sharing cheap champagne and strawberries in the hot tub, etc... And we have our regularly scheduled Friday night dinner together, and I might say that it tends to get a little hot in the kitchen if you know what I mean.

We talk very openly, I am very supportive of her as I've always been, she knows that I am truly her one and only, and I embrace that role and do everything I can to be the best husband and father I can be.

But the questions are in my mind. I'm certainly not looking for a quick fix. I know that's unrealistic, but this forum has been there for me so many times and in so many ways that I wanted to let those who I have come to trust help me process this as I proceed down the long and narrow road of recovery.

I think part of what I'm trying to understand, perhaps a better Q for SH on Monday is why if I don't answer his question of why my wife committed adultery with "she failed to protect her weaknesses" he indicates that we need to agree to that or we can't get to the next step in the process.

I value the insight from this community and know that what I will get will help me.

So I thank you and all the others who are sharing their thoughts and perspectives. Clearly I'm not the only one who is feeling this and struggling to understand the why, so hopefully this thread will benefit others as well.

I just think that the "why" can not possibly be a simple as I am being asked to believe.

I've got to run for a few hours, time to get cookin ;-) But I will certainly check back in later.

I hope you all will feel free to carry on the discussion.

And again, Thank you.

MEDC,

You said
But, you would have no problem inflicting pain on someone would you? You would not have a problem, even to a spouse YOU made a vow to love and protect, inflicting pain and suffering would you. Your vows didn't say "I will protect you unless you..."

Affairs inflict pain, so does physical or emotional abuse. So does abandonment, many things do so.

Given my background I KNOW you could be made to do about anything with the proper incentive. I am glad that you think you would never have an affair and even better that you have not,but that fact does not award you nor I Sainthood.


Given that you don't agree with the MB approach, why are you here on a private board supported by MB? What do you bring to the party other than YOUR opinions based on your very limited experience? You are indeed entitled to your opinion? However the common opinion offered to a BS is "kick them to the curb", which doesn't really do much for saving a marriage does it? Where is your plan written up and published so that people can choose between MB and your plan?

In the world I work in, it is fair game to shoot down a plan, criticize it, prove it wrong, but the person doing it darned well better produce an alternate that rises to the standards of the previous plan and surpass it.

Your honesty doesn't bother me. Your negativity about MB coupled with a lack of better alternatives and data does.

Please think about it. You could be an agent for some great changes, but you need a plan.

JL

JL,

I don't agree with some of the MB principals, but I am here anyway because I joined another infidelity message board (think purple) and was banned. It was soon after d-day. You think I'm angry here? You should've seen me back then.

I've done some searching, and this was the only other decent infidelity message board on the internet. It's not overrun by unremorseful scumbag WS's, but it does have lots of traffic. It does no good to talk, or even vent, if nobody is there to read it.

So, although I may not be a perfect fit for this board, it's the only one I've got right now.

TTH,

I realize you are struggling with this. I will repeat my previous post. You are not required to "believe" anything. I think what you are seeing is SH working on your W to change her perspective on many things. Her perspective MUST change for you to have a chance in believing that your marriage can be recovered/rebuilt/started anew. Your call on the symmantics.

At the end of the day, what YOU have to decide is if you are going to stay with your W or you are not. It is/was/will be your call. I will say, that if WS/FWS does not change something, it would be very hard for me to stay in the marriage. I dumped a fiance' for that reason. She wasn't going to change. So I left.

I will also say that I agree with RP. Let me offer you my thoughts.

You said How about we go a step further. Let's argue that people have a propensity to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex AND we have sex drives. This is NOT a propensity to cheat although if one is married then allowing someone to fulfil our desires sexually will lead to cheating if we are not married to them.

I will bet good money, you have a propensity to be sexually attracted to women, MEDC does, I do, most folks do. I will make it more general, people for the most part have a propensity to be sexually attracted to other people. The slippery slope is from sexual attraction to cheating. Is not the idea of cheating itself (with the notable possibility of someone enjoying inflicting pain).

There is also a propensity for some people to be emotionally attached to other people. In and of itself it is not bad. But, when married and then it is not acceptable other than to the spouse. Do we have that propensity? Yes, you do, I do, MEDC does, most folks do.

It is these base level propensities that allow Harley to claim we all have the potential to cheat. He is not claiming that your W, my exFiance, or anyone else craves the act of cheating, it is in our base needs we don't protect ourselves intellectually from meeting those base needs by cheating.

The truth is TTH, even if your W figures out the why, changes her approach to life to protect her weaknesses, you still may not want to be married to her. Her doing these things is ONLY useful to you IF you decide to remain in the marriage. You don't have to swallow anything, believe anything. You just have to decide what YOU want or need to do. The work you are doing with SH will offer your W paths to protect you, and her from addressing her propensities in such harmful ways. Is that useful to you??? Your call.

At the end of the day, it is and always will be your call. You have total control of the situation with regard to whether this marriage suits you.

It is my opinion that MB offers to you and your W ways to address issues, IF you decide you want to address them or she wants to address them. It is organized, it recognizes the commonality of affairs and the decisions to have them. It recognizes the things you will hear, she will say, and how you will react. But, in the end it does not require you to "believe" anything. It simply offers you a path and time to assess your position and what the future might/could look like.

I hope something I have said is of use to you.

God Bless,

JL

To annoy you of course.

It's funny you talk about my neagtivity towards MB..yet that is a view that many, many here do not share. They think I bring honesty and an accurate take on things.

If you don't like me being here, ask the mods to ban me.

NO!!!!

we can't ban you!
i'd have no one to internet flirt with medc
i would miss you terribly.

take it back!

mlhb

MEDC,

I have no interest in seeing you banned. I think your experiences and how you have handled them are useful for people to see and learn from. The anger you mentioned is very evident in your posts. I wish I could offer you something to remove that anger, it will harm you. It harms your message sometimes (in my opinion).

What bothers me, is that you bring anger into a situation where there is already plenty of anger or reason to be angry. It doesn't help in my opinion.

You say you don't agree with MB but you don't offer alternatives for those that want guidance or support. You see where I am coming from?

As you well know, what TTH, RB and others are going through is very hard, very discouraging, very challenging and anger is part of all of that. THey don't need more anger, they need guidance for awhile until they get on their emotional feet, then most if not all are intelligent enough to make what feels to them the correct decision (married, not married, work on it, walk).

If you read Harley's articles one of the things he wanted to do was have people avoid the kneejerk decision when confronted with a failing marriage. He never claimed all marriage should or would be saved. Just that more would be if people learned and had a bit of patience with themselves. The patience part is hard to do, when angry.

Hence my comments to you. So NO I don't want you banned or censored. I want to see you even more effective than you have been to date.

God Bless,

JL

JL, I appreciate your interperatation of this. It makes sense to me. I just want to clarify one thing. My FWW does believe it. It makes sense to her. It just doesn't make complete sense to me at this point.

The thing about "being stuck" does not refer to my disinterest in taking a leap of faith and following through with the program as I truly do want to recover my marriage in spite of the overwhelming distaste I currently have for FWW.

The being stuck, more refers to SH's contention that I must believe this to proceed. I disagree with him on this point, and feel that it is not a pre-condition for moving to the next logical step in following the MB program for reconciliation. I believe that as we work through this we will BOTH come to a deeper understanding of what happened and why.

I think it is unrealistic frankly, to expect any BS to wholly embrace that which must be fully vetted, within 3 weeks of (yet another) D-day in order to get to the next step.

I'm here. I'm trying (too hard?). And am prepared for the WS in this situation to attempt to find a deeper understanding of her heinous behavior and begin to work diligently to re-establish herself that I might regain respect, trust and love for her. Hopefully deep passinate love.

So again, it is not my conviction in agreeing that "failure to protect weaknesses" that holds FWW back in this process.

As SH has said, I am the patient, she is the Dr. and must do the triage. I just know that at some point in the future I am going to have to come to some better understanding of the "why" to fully recover. just one grain of asphalt not scrubbed out with the wire brush of "recovery" could remain and ultimately lead to emotional infection.

I want it all out.

(Anyone relate to the road rash analogy?...)

... For what it's worth, sometimes the anger shared by oters who are venting in a sense gives them credibility and a sense of reality.

We all receive the message in our own way independant of the vehicle it arrives in.

JMHO

VERY WELL SAID TTH....

The very first time I EVER saw one of Krazy's posts, I thought "What a complete A$$!!!!". I even felt sorry for his WW....but in time I came I came to see that he was posting his TRUE AND RAW feelings that COME with having been betrayed. It is not fun nor is it something I would have wished for, but now I UNDERSTAND it (I was not anywhere near the anger point then BUT now??? I GET IT....). And yes, it is good to see that those VERY REAL AND RAW anger feelings are not unusual....and that I am not the only going through them.

I do, however, see where people kind of freak when they see them and wonder if this person is like this all the time, I had the same reaction, but I have learned from myself this is not entirely true......still looking for answers though, on how to deal or what to do with those feelings when they surface, besides put them on hold???? or excercise (already doing that)???

sorry for the T/J there......kind of got on my own tangent....lol

TTH...I will say these threads you have going are SO EXTREMELY HELPFUL for many of us BS out here....keep it up....sorry you have to though..

not2fun

TTH,

I guess my original point was if this makes sense to her and she begins to pursue the why and how of her boundaries and protecting them, she will eventually come to understand something fundamental enough to offer you some confidence that she "gets it".

I cannot argue against your feelings on this as I sort of agree with you. My question is SH asking you to "believe" what you know now, or in the process of examining things so that you will know more as your W begins to recover her moral balance?

I don't know. Just a question that perhaps you can ask SH.

God Bless,

JL

I am not sure what anger you are referencing that I spoke of.

In addition, I am certain that you and I see "effectiveness" in an entirely different way on these boards. I judge that based on your postings and those that you have referenced as success stories. I am certain you reach some people JL...as do I. Thanks for the tips, but I am quite comfortable with my postings and don't carry around the anger that you seem to see.

It's funny...so many here are talking about anger and I find that my lack of anger for my F-WH (as Lousy Golfer has deemed him) is one of my road blocks.

I agree that it is good sometimes to feel the emotion behind the post. That way we know it is REAL.

I don't care for the posts (none on this thread) that make snide or sarcastic comments to people as a way to "shock" them into reality, but that is just my own level of sensitivity. I may be able to handle it as d-day fades farther into the past.

But, as with EVERYTHING in life, you take what you need, leave some for others, and pass it around (something my H teaches our boys at the dinner table, but it fits here too).

TTH,

The first thing that has to happen is for you to pray fervernly that God will step in and remove the huge stone in the middle of yur chest, and replace it with the soft compliant heart that He initially gave you when you were born.

Start there, and everything else will begin to fall in place sequentially. (WOW, a fifty cent word)

All blessings,
Jerry

Jerry,

HOW do you do that? I am in tears all because I LONG for that heart again. Is it really possible to find it? Maybe I'm praying the wrong way.

Sometimes it seems as easy as to just hope for PEACE WITHIN.

HTM

htm,

It wasn't or isn't easy. But It's also simple!

Read my sig line that I've had for 3 years. It's about coming to a true realization, that I didn't have the power to heal myself, but God did.

Once I acknowledged that, It's as if He said "It's about time!"

There are many things in life that are beyond are capacity, but NOTHING is beyond God's capacity. I put all my hope and strength into thinking that I could solve and heal this.

I WAS WRONG. Right from the start!

Ask HIM with earnest. Do you think for a moment HE will not come to your rescue, but, as always, IF YOU WILL ALLOW HIM!!!

All blessings,
Jerry

Well, I don't know if failing to protect weaknesses is "simple", but I understand your point. I felt similar when I did MC with SH.


Are you sure he's saying you must believe it to proceed? Perhaps its more suspend your disbelief. KWIM. I honestly think what he is trying to do is keep you from putting up a barrier to intimacy.

I hope I am not crossing a line by posting here I just felt that I would like to have a say about our counseling sessions with SH.
I don't at all believe that "failure to protect against my weaknesses" Is a cop-out. It is not an excuse or justification to the action of infidelity. It was a choice to let down that guard and let someone else in to meet some of my EN's. I wasn't waiting around looking for an affair or for someone to "boff". In fact sex was not even a consideration when I starting getting close to someone else.
As a FWW I can say that it happened very gradually. It's like (at least for me) If you haven't eaten for several hours and you drink you start to feel good. It doesn't take much and soon you are intoxicated. You choose to drink, you even choose to get drunk, but then all of the sudden you start making choices you wouldn't normally make sober. It is not a justification for your actions, but rather an explanation of why you were able to do what you did without much rational thought. If you then get into a car and kill someone, yes you are responsible for your actions, but sober you would not have chosen to endanger someone else's life would you? Sober you would have made a very different choice.
I think this is where SH is going with all of this. There is never going to be an acceptable REASON for any of it, not the lies, or the hurt, or the actions, none of it.
I don't believe you have to "buy" into anything, but it helps me going forward to know how to protect against my weaknesses. If I know what they are it makes it a lot easier. If I always have my guard up and know what made me vulnerable before wouldn't it stand to reason that I would recognize if it was happening again? SH always uses the analogy of the frog in the water. The water heats up so gradually that you might not notice, but if you are carrying around a thermometer you know when it's time to jump out without relying on your feeling it get hot! Yes, it may feel like it's a little late, but we only have now to work with not two years ago when I should have opened up and told you how very upset I was.
I believe someone mentioned on here that they had a hard time with the whole "under the influence" thought until SH said that they were under the influence of their own selfishness, and then it made a little sense. It is very true. I was selfish and awful and hurtful, but I am better then that. We CAN save our marriage. I truly believe that. With much time and effort we can move forward and learn from all the mistakes that were made and protect against those. If I have you by my side we can fight anything coming at us. ILTTF!

I think you make a lot of good points...the place where I get stuck is that it requires rational thought to deceive those closest to you. Lies/deception/planning to get together all take malice of forethought.

I am not going to make it a habit to answer on TTH's thread, but I will make this argument If you love someone isn't it definitely irrational to try to deceive them or do things to hurt them? Doesn't mean it isn't a conscience choice, but I think I definitely wasn't thinking clearly, If i had been thinking rationally I wouldn't have done done what I did...
I am going to start my own post today about it I would welcome your input for me there.
Thanks

Peace out

Aren't the lies/deception/planning the completely rational way to achieve the irrational objective of having an affair?

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not so sure that the fact that a person rationally worked toward an objective prooves one way or another that they were in their "right" mind when they decided on that objective.

I have not read this whole thread but i would have to agree that "and his contention is that my FWW committed adultery because "she failed to protect her weaknesses"." is a crock of [censored].

I think that WSs know EXACTLY what they are doing or else it would not be kept a secret.

I know when i told my kids about their dad's A and that it was also MY FAULT that he thought the M was supposedly so bad that he had to find someone else (even though he says that is not true that our M has ALWAYS been fine, it was his emotional problems that caused the affair). I did not want to place ALL the blame on my FWH.

The kids said they did not care whose fault it was, he KNEW the consequences of his ACTIONS.

TTH, it's ok to believe that your spouse is flawed b/c the bright line we're all talking about here is fidelity vs. infidelity. The underlying causes are best understood on a case-by-case approach. There's that famous opening line from Anna Karenina..."All happy families resemble one another, each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." Adultery while utterly common is still wholly personal to you. I assume you consider it an affront to your dignity, your beliefs, and the marriage that you chose to enter into.

That said, with knowledge regarding what she's capable of I imagine you find yourself in that difficult position where you still feel love for her. The one thing though that you now know, which you didn't before is her capacity for deceit. That information is important b/c you can set your boundaries accordingly. Your forgiveness and tolerance may remain conditional, but if you can't accept that your spouse is an inherently flawed individual and perhaps very different from how you perceived her, then it's going to be very difficult for you to work on your marriage

You know, most people who find themselves in these situations want an assurance that it will never happen again. Hope repeatedly shattered is abusive--it becomes a living death. Yet, an assurance of fidelity is only as strong as its weakest link. All the fww's that you see here who would never cheat again have reached that point for one reason. They recognized that the cheating destroyed their own integrity as a woman, a wife, and perhaps also as a mother. As much as their husbands and counselors tried to offer assistance (for change), they came to that point via their own fortitude.

TTH--your wife is still young--in your mind you can keep her bound to the whipping post, that's none of my business--but IMO for her to be able to reach the point where her promise of fidelity becomes bankable--it requires a personal journey. Whether you promote or frustrate that potential (that exists in the process) is within your control.

By the time you get to the "malice aforethought" stage, your boundaries have already been moved, many of them almost imperceptibly...You are then at the rationalization/justification phase aka "the fog phase"...

For instance in my own case, Mr. W KNEW immediately when OM (an ex-boyfriend) contacted me-I called and told him-BEFORE I emailed OM back...Mr. W KNEW we were emailing...He KNEW we were talking on the phone-It was going on with Mr. W present several times...At the time, I didn't think I was doing anything wrong and neither did Mr. W...By the time things crossed the line conversationally it was TOO LATE...I never hid "contact"...It was all out in the open...What I did eventually hide were the conversations that shifted to "remember whens" and "what ifs"-actually I even shared some of that with Mr. W...I believed I could handle it-After all, I was one of those that said "I would NEVER cheat"...Plus OM was 750 miles away...

Mrs. W

most do IMHO.

Also, hiding the content of the discussions also requires an deliberate act of deception. In criminal court, most infidelity would be considered a premeditated act(if in fact it were classified a crime). This is no invouluntary or negigent act.

BTW, hello Mrs. W. Thanks for the correction (although, humbly, I think both work just fine!).

LOL! You got me!

It was meant as a "polite correction", if that makes a difference MEDC! Being the wife of an attorney, as well as a former Criminal Justice major well, yanno, it just becomes INGRAINED!

What I was trying to explain though, is that by the time you get to that point, you are already deep in it...Altered...Self Deluded...FOGGY...Gosh, I wish so much that I could explain exactly what I know...Dat be hard! If I had more time right now, I'd try, alas, I'm out the door to meet Mr. W for a little work project and dinner...

Mrs. W

I posted this to Tyk when he was struggling with "why" the affair happened.

And I think you might some value in this. I'll try to read more about your situation TTH, but I suspect your wife wasn't even considering you when she chose to go forward with the affair.

Great post Lexxxy

I have been watching this thread for awhile and thought I’d throw in my two cents since I’m working on the same assignment as ILMH right now. I am writing scenarios to help keep my defenses up so that if I find myself in a similar situation as before, I have a strategy to keep from falling into the same trap.

First let me say that I believed I was impervious to having an affair. I believed our marriage was strong enough, and that I didn’t have a need to keep my defenses up because I didn’t believe I was vulnerable. I was high and mighty about it, in fact. A couple who are friends of ours divorced a few years ago because the husband had an affair. I was irate with him for hurting our friend like that. I was angry at Mr. Z for continuing to be his friend. I used to pride myself in being a conservative republican. I was always a hard worker and believed in working an honest day’s pay. If I went out for long lunch, I made up my time. I got a master’s degree while working full time and didn’t miss work while doing it. I was a self-righteous snob.

Then, the OM moved into an office right next to mine. A liberal, a prior musician, an avid book reader, and no college degree. I loved getting into banters with this guy about politics, religion, music, and art. Although I was very conservative, I was raised by liberal parents, my dad was an artist and I grew up to become a graphic designer and illustrator by trade. Even though I enjoyed arguing with this guy, a connection was simmering. As SH put it, and ILMH echoed, it’s like the frog on tepid water. The temperature was turned up slowly over several months and I didn’t notice that my defenses, my proud conservatism, my morals, my character, were slowly being boiled away to be replaced by an attraction that I allowed to consume me.

The reason this realization of letting down defenses is so important is that I know now what I did wrong. This guy knew how much I loved to hear compliments on my artistic talents, my opinions, the way I was able to cause him to “think” about things. He knew I didn’t like to bother with idle conversation. We took turns standing on our soap boxes, and delighted in the validation we received from each other. Now I know to avoid those kinds of passionate discussions with the opposite sex, unless it’s with Mr. Z. If someone of the opposite sex begins to marvel at my artwork, the correct response is to say “thank you” and not to indulge in what inspired me, or why I chose those colors, and never say anything like, “wow, you’re the only one who got that!” Do you see what I’m saying?

Also, if you read Surviving an Affair and Dr. Harley’s basic concepts, you know that he says that if you are getting your top emotional needs met by someone other than your spouse, you are vulnerable to an affair. When my hubbie read that, he felt that my affair was actually his fault because he realized he wasn’t meeting my emotional needs while someone else was. Once I admitted that it was my fault that I let my defenses down, it took him off the hook. He felt tremendous relief from that. This step has been crucial to us, more to the point, it’s been crucial for him to know that I take responsibility for my own actions.

I hope this helps

Mrs. Z

Great post mrs Z!

KNOWING you could have an affair is an excellent defence IMO.

OR as 1 Cor 10:12 puts it..

I know that i always get myself in trouble on these kinds of threads BUT i am going to post anyway.

I personally do not believe in "the fog" so to speak. I mean no matter what those innocent little things are that lead you down that path YOU knew they are wrong (no matter how innocent they seemed) and if you would think about it the other way around (if your spouse was doing it to you) YOU would never even start with the first little thing to begin with.

And once you did start with that first little thing you should have enough guts to talk to your spouse about it instead of taking the next step down that slope.

I have been in situations where i could have taken that first step and have ALWAYS chosen not to take it and TRY VERY HARD to NEVER let myself be in a situation where anyone else COULD meet my ENs. To me it has not been DIFFICULT at all for 25 years.

Even now when things are such a mess i would not CONSIDER talking to a memeber of the opposite sex about my personal life EVER (except for on this forum)!!!!

I agree with every word!

yeah sure **in a good marriage** that would be some reasonable steps.

But what you are not understanding is that most waywards that start affairs are not bonded to their spouse. They do not have the intimacy.

I was very much in a state of withdrawl from my husband at the time my affair started. (you know those stages Dr. Harley talks about: intimacy, conflict, withdrawl?)

And I also had underlying anger towards him because my plans and dreams for my family were taking a big backseat to his independent behavior.

So I had no interest in running to my husband with my concerns about this encroaching threat. Finally somebody was paying attention to me -- and I certainly didn't want my HUSBAND to spoil that!


So yeah, most of you would push away any threats to your marriage. Easy to say now. But if your needs aren't being met, and you aren't bonded to your spouse...it can happen.

I feel like I had been begging my husband for years to pay attention to me. I was sick of trying with him. Somebody else came along and it wasn't a big CHORE to be with me.

And it was easy for me to say when my needs were not close to being met in my marriage...I felt distant from my also distant spouse but NEVER entertained the idea of stepping out on her....and I was 26 at the time. My views are only stronger at this point in my life.

So, it's not just easy to say NOW...I have been tested in those fires and KNOW what I would say under any circumstances when it comes to infidelity.

whatever medc.
Of course you are the exception to every rule.
You are the perfect human model.

I was referring to the rest of us.

I would still DISAGREE on this matter.

When my H had his A more of MY EN were not being met than his and i still would NEVER EVER turn to a member of the opposite sex to EVEN discuss them much less have them be met by someone else.

I feel the biggest reason my H had an A was because we had a family member (he is MY family member not my H's) who lived in our home that i did not want to be there because he was a HORRIBLE ALCOHOLIC and it seemed like we were taking care of a kid rather than letting a 50 year old man have a place to live while he got on his feet. I begged and pleaded with my H to have this man leave our home.

Well my H kept making excuses as to why this man needed longer so after three years of this man living in our home i withdrew from my H. And he was still there for almost another year. Heck the reason he first went to the OW house was to take this guy and try to set the two of them up. The OW wanted my H and not the other guy and went for it HARD.

So in my eyes i was the one who COULD have had the A not my H because he was taking this man's feelings more into consideration than he was mine. No matter what i said or how i said it my H would always come up with a reason for this man to be there.

I still NEVER talked to any member of the opposite sex regarding ANY relationship issues PERIOD. And i know that i NEVER will.

Lexxy...why not the same resposne to this post from SC? Oh wait...never mind...who cares.

I thought the purpose of this thread was to help TTH understand "why" his wife had an affair.

I thought perhaps my comments would help him understand some of the wayward thought processes.

So I simply don't understand why you feel the need to discuss yourself.

That's just because you are the perfect human model SC.

That is GREAT, truly GREAT that neither you or Still will EVER have an affair! Good job.

Now can we get back to helping TTH understand how waywards end up entrenched in affairs?

by TTH
well, since these are TTH's words from THIS thread, I assume he understands and values my input.

Ok lets put MEDC, and Still, and TTH in the little bucket of people that will NEVER EVER cheat.

Now what?

Does he still want to talk about his original question?

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this, but can you please try not to get personal with each other? It's not helping.

No-ones ideas are any better or worse than anyone else's. We simply each have our own unique perspectives. I believe this forum is intended for us to share our perspectives that we might try to get something of value from them.

I am a BS who has never cheated. There are many of us here. There are also many W and FWS's as well. Obviously we are not all going to see things through the same prism.

Sharing our differing points of view calmly and with respect for each others' differences is healthy and helpful. To reduce a change of opinion to petty sniping is childish and counterproductive.

I don't think any of us has anything personal against any other board member. H*ll, we don't even know each other...

I come here to get a respite from conflict, not engage further in it. Let's try to focus on the subject of each thread, not get derailed and end up in some unproductive pit of negativity.

Please?...

PS - I DO value everyone's input. As long as it's not petty and misdirected. MEDC and Lex, I get something from each of your visions of adultery. It helps me get closer to understanding what she did and where I am. Thank you both for taking the time to share.

PPS - Can someone clue me in on how to post those little quote boxes in a thread? I'm feeling pretty tech-challenged right now and may have to go listen to an 8-track...

I certainly don't agree that some people are "immune" to affairs...I feel that way BECAUSE I once thought the same...That I was "immune"...I learned the hard way otherwise...Dr. Harley also believes that none of us are immune...

I do not think that it will serve TTH and ILMH well at all for TTH to continue to believe as he does about his own immunity...It will cause him to feel "above" her...It will cause her to feel "looked down upon" by him...Not a recipe for a successful recovery...

I have noticed that some of the most successful recoveries here have this in common...The BS comes to understand that their WS is a FLAWED HUMAN, just as they themselves are a FLAWED HUMAN...That is a big step towards becoming a team...To deny your susceptiblity is to deny your humanness...

Mrs. W

P.S. Superhuman Action Figures like Batman/MEDC aside, of course!

AMEN

Thanks MrsW.

I want you to know that I do not feel "above" her. Everyone gets to make their own choices. God gave us free will, no?

I also have tried to be very clear that I do NOT believe that I am 100% certain that I would NEVER cheat, that I'm immune. I don't think anyone can make that claim with absolute certainty. I just simply haven't. I would like to believe that I would continue to choose "right" as I have, if / when the opportunity presented itself again.

We are very early in this recovery process in spite of my having been around here for a while. With that being said, I am understanding more and more each day with great help from you all. But, at a certain level, she DID let me down. More importantly she let HERSELF down. She knows this and wants to be better. I believe she can and I am supporting her and cheering her on.

As I just mentioned in my last post here, we have starkly different perspectives, pain, emotions, etc from her choice. It stands to reason, I think, that as we work through this (rather transparently through this forum), different ideas and thoughts will come up. Sharing a thought or concern that arises, and getting feedback on those, can be quite enlightening as long as those of you try to put what we're asking in context.

I do tend to vent, more than laud positives here. Simply, I wish to share as much of the good stuff directly with ILMH, while lashing out here to avoid spewing the venom at her. I've found a remarkable amount of compassion and solace by being able to vent here.

One thread subject alone does not a marriage recovery make.

I think overall, we are doing ok for less than a month from D-day.

I am flawed. She is flawed. We are working together to try to get better. There is simply a ton of [censored] to process and I have come to truly value the help you all provide to that end.

Humbly,

TTH

Two ways:

You can hit the 'quote' button in someone's post. That will put their entire post in a quote box and allow you to add text. Most people don't do this, because they might want to respond to a particular point instead of the whole post.

The second way is to enclose snippets of someone's post in open and close quote tags. You can do this by hitting 'reply'...then at the top are some buttons: click the double quote (") button. It'll give you some tags - the word quote contained in hard brackets ([) and (]). Paste the text you want to quote in the middle of the tags. It'll take a few tries to get it right, but once you've done it you'll see how easy it is.

Then there are those of us who just type the tags in manually, but I live on a keyboard anyway and am too lazy to use the mouse

I don't agree with this at all. I don't look down at you Mrs. W..and I feel you had a weakness I didn't have. I think you would be a blessing to have in anyone's life....even though you have weaknesses that differ from mine. I wouldn't expect a spouse to look down on me for my shortcomings either.

far from accurate. To deny your susceptibility to a particular weakness does not deny your humanness. To deny ANY flaw would mean that...not a particular flaw.

I certainly did not say that i was "immune" to having an affair. What i said is that I TRY VERY HARD to NEVER put myself in a situation where a member of the opposite sex COULD meet my EN and for 25 years i have not found that DIFFICULT to do.

To me these are boundaries that should be in every realationship from the very beginning.

And i certainly do not feel "above" or "better than" my H. I know i am human and am capable of making poor choices just like everyone else and certainly have in other instances.

I have a niece who was in a situation where she COULD have had an A and what she did simply AMAZES met to this day. Her and her H were very independent (too much so IMO) and did their own things most of the time. She went out to the clubs with her friends while he either practiced with his band mates or rode his dirt bike.

Well she is a very attractive women and men would try to pick her up while at the clubs. It did not bother her at first, then one day she said that she noticed she started liking the attention she was getting from these men. Did she have an affair? No she told her H, "honey I am liking this attention so we need to do something about our M right now" and they did.

To this day they have a very happy marriage.

This is the kind of thing i am trying to get accross. That even if you start on that slope there is ALWAYS the chance to get back off of it before you slide down further.

IMO it takes more effort to stay on the slope than to get off of it.

Ask Steve about this Try...Remind him that ILMH also reads and posts here...I would NEVER, EVER wish to tell a BS to "stuff their pain"...I would not be that callous and cruel...And I do understand the need to be validated...But I often wonder how beneficial it is to RECOVERY...Your stated goal...I want you to get to a place where you are comfortable, but I don't wish for you to eventually walk past that place into "wound picking"...Not healthy for you or ILMH...

I fear that too much commiseration results in keeping you MISERABLE...I could be wrong...That is why my BEST ADVICE is to consult the professional, Steve Harley, where this is concerned...

Mrs. W

StillCrazy...

I understand very much what you are saying...Let me say that I had MANY, MANY opportunites to have an affair BEFORE my affair happened...I did not...That REALLY fed my belief that I was safe too! It wasn't until, for lack of a better phrase, "THE PERFECT STORM" hit that I succumbed...

Mrs. W

SC, I couldn't possibly agree more...

Thanks BB!

Even so Mrs W you obviously put yourself in the situation many many times.

I am not trying to rag on you or any other FWS, i just believe that it is not as simple as it seems on this board for affairs to happen that is just my personal opinion.

SC;



I think its even MORE SIMPLE than this board implies!
Look at how many marriages are impacted by infidelity!

Its overwhelming! Nearly every grown adult has some experience whether its their own marriage, or their parents, other family, friends.

Infidelity is EVERYWHERE.

And 10 years ago, I put myself up on a nice high pedestal!
I was a Sunday school teacher, baseball coach, supermom.
I never DREAMED that I would experience this. And I too had previous opportunities that I never acted on. But suddenly there I was.

And you know what? I'm GLAD I got knocked off that pedestal.
I'm glad I was humbled.

Lexxy has made a really good point here to SC and MEDC, and that is, let's think about how we can help TTH and answer his original question. I feel as if the posts where people have taken a lot of time to thoughtfully answer TTH's question are becoming overshadowed by a soap box debate about character weaknesses. Just Learning et al have posted some incredible insights and those posts are buried in the middle of this maelstrom. I'm afraid TTH isn't getting the benefit of what they have to say.

Maybe SC and MEDC can make a new thread so that they can argue their points and invite comments, but keep this one on topic? Whaddya say? :eek:


Mrs Z.

Putting myself in the situations? No, not really...I was just going about my life and had many approaches-in PUBLIC places-work, the mall, out with Mr. W even...I was at HOME when OM contacted me on the other hand...A place where I certainly felt safe...OM who I had known since I was 12 years old...Hindsight being what it is, Mr. W and I both now know better...No kidding that we BOTH didn't then...We were Gen X "cool"..."liberal"...believed we could have friends of the opposite sex...And now? Well, we know better, and when you know better, you do better...

Mrs. W

LMAO

Here is TTH original question and my response agrees with TTH so i think i am on the subject of the original thread and giving my opinion same as you are.

What Mrs Z and some others here are saying is that you can answer the question as posed SC...so long as your answer matches theirs.

SC - I'm confused. Why would you be amazed at what your Neice did, yet consider it the easier choice?

I sometimes think the words "simple" and "easy" get used interchangeably, but they aren't the same thing. Protecting your weaknesses is simple, it just isn't always easy.

And this is what i said in the very beginning. That if you do not put yourself in the situation it CAN NOT happen.

*T/J ALERT* (Is it possible to do that to your own thread?...)

Anyway,

MrsW, I haven't seen Res or W2S around for a while. Any idea why? I think their perspective could be really good for both ILMH and I right now.

*T/J OVER*

I took what SC to mean is that getting off the slipery slope and doing the RIGHT thing was easier than staying on and doing the WRONG thing.

I said that "I" find it easier, obviously this forum would not exist if MOST found it easier.

This is true for me as well.

And that is EXACTLY what i meant.

Yes, that is how I took it.

I would not normally observe someone doing the right and easy thing and be amazed at the behavior.

these days I am more amazed by good than evil!

I do get your point here rprynne. Unfortunately just like the reasons this forum exists it RARELY happens that people do the "right" thing in this particular circumstance. That is why i found it AMAZING.

Try,

I want to make it clear to you (and others) that I am not here debating this immunity vs. non-immunity issue for myself...I don't need validation of that from people here...It is more than enough that Mr. W and I see eye to eye where that is concerned...It has served our recovery well-NOT just from my perspective, but from his too...

My intent is to help you, because IMO, it is an important issue to recovery...Seeing one another as human, in an empathetic way is helpful to both of you...Just as ILMH should try and put herself in your shoes as much as humanly possible...Lay down arms...You are not adversaries...You are on the same team...When you come to each other with humble hearts recovery looks less daunting...

Mrs. W

Ok.


Me too. Which is why I asked the question.


Fair enough and I agree.

FWIW, I don't say to people I would never have an A. The way I view it, is that I can not imagine any scenario in which I would have an A. I just can't. This is even more so since d-day. But I also accept the fact that I can't imagine every possible scenario that could possibly occur in my life. I like to think I have complete control over what scenarios may one day occur, but I realize that I don't. So, I leave it at that.

I would say that when a FWS's says that before they had an A, they knew they would never cheat, were really in the same position. They "knew" this, because they could not imagine a scenario in which they would cheat. This POV is inherently risky, because in most cases, you can't really "know" what you will do until you find yourself in that situation. It reminds of the old saying in boxing, "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." People usually don't prepare themselves for a scenario they never expect to happen.

Well put. Unless you're Jesus himself, no one can say they will ALWAYS resist-- well they can say it-- but only the future will prove if it's true.

Would it be fair to say that adultery happens when motive meets opportunity?

Oh I agree, there is ALWAYS a motive, even if it's concocted in hindsight. It can be either way actually -- opportunity creates motivation or motivation creates opportunity.

For what it's worth,


Yes, that's exactly what I tried to say about 10 pages ago, which is to indicate a process that has to happen before one acts upon the motive.

This is where a systematic process of dispelling each and every core boundary, one by one, is necessary to achieve that purpose.
As MEDC would say from a legalistic ppoint of view: premeditation!

This is why I stand with Dr Pittman when he says the choice has been made before the act!

To come back and claim "poor me, I didn't see my weakness," is in MHO, at the very least, disingenous (sp, as usual).

We are all weak as humans. The difference comes from the choice to keep our boundaries in place, or the horrible choice to dispell and view those boundaries as obstacles to our desire.

That's what sin is all about, including adultry.

JMHO

All blessings,
Jerry

Yeeeeeesssssss

In one of the lessons that I remember from a recent sermon, our pastor said that he often prays to God for this one simple thing:

Keep me from the desire to sin when I have the opportunity and keep me from the opportunity to sin when I have the desire.

A friend told me that it is the "red light, green light" prayer. I think it fits perfectly with MB. We help to keep ourselves from the desire to sin by building a strong relationship with our spouse where our needs are being met and we are content to remain. We help to keep ourselves from the opportunity to sin by putting boundaries and extraordinary precautions in place.

TTH,

Just had to make a reference to the Dead...I wrote my undergraduate thesis on the question of morality in the concentration camps during the second world war and found a perfect quote that embodied the question of WHO is culpable for their actions (or inactions)...I used it as a dedication...

"Am I the victim or the crime?"

There's ALWAYS an excellent lyric or two to be found to fit any circumstance IMHO :-)

HTM

Premeditation doesn't begin to occur until some of the weaknesses have already gone unprotected though...By the time it occurs steps to infidelity have already UNKNOWINGLY, in many cases (if not most), happened...

An example that I've already shared on another thread here...

One of our staff recently didn't have enough gas to get to our newest location that we are currently doing build-out on...

She asked Mr. W if she could ride with him...

Due to our new "pass EVERYTHING by each other" rule, Mr. W asked if I would be okay with that...I said, "NOOOOOO" (pre-affair he would not have asked and I would not have cared, because I didn't know to)

Here's why I said "no"...Because I realize NOW that that is the very tip top of the slope...That after saying yes one time, the second, third, fourth, etc. would be NO BIG DEAL...During those rides, obviously conversations would take place...familiarity would be bred...and so on and so forth...So that IF an affair did take place the "where it all began" could be traced right back to that intial "innocent seeming" ride...

Mr. W didn't see that as a potential weakness until I pointed it out...Affair proofing your marriage is a TEAM EFFORT...

I do not in any way believe that Mr. W was "premeditating" an affair, when he failed to see that as a potential weakness...

But that's all it takes folks...The devil is in the TINIEST of details...Ones that are OFTEN overlooked...

Mrs. W

P.S. FTR, our employee was given an advance in order to afford gas...

I respectfully disagree. Dropping boundaries and allowing youself to venture forth "unproteceded" is a concious decision, it is not nealy so subtle as you may propose.

When core boundaries are dropped, they are so with a motivation, even if that motivation is unhealthy to the M.
This is the beggining of replacing boundaries with desire.

I dunno, this is JMHO, and probably is meaningless. But it took me six years to finally get here.

At this point, it doesn't matter. I will have a great life with my W because I love and forgive her. should there be another betrayal, I will abandon her in a new york minute.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry...

Did you read my example? Do you honestly think Mr. W was premeditating an affair? I certainly do not...Do you see how giving that ride wouldn't have been protecting a weakness?

Mrs. W

I think EVERY A is premeditated!!!

It begins in the fantasy of your mind that everyone here loves to call the fog for lack of a better expantion.

It's only called fog when you can't or won't expalain it!!

IMHO, no A takes place without premeditation!!

It's that premeditation that allows you to drop each of your boundaries, one by one, and inch by inch.

All just part of the "victumhood" mentality that a phych can make you feel somehow better about. for some, it's the very best they can live with. OTOH, true repentance is taking full resposibilty for your horrible choice WITHOUT PUTTING A LABEL ON IT!!

It was yours and you own it. You can always be forgiven by Christ, and even your BH, but the damage and fallout will still always belong to you. "NOT YOUR WEAKNESSES!"

I have weaknesses too, but I chose not to act upon them!

JMHO

All Blessings,
Jerry


JMHO

All Blessings,
Jerry

No, I don't. I didn't know Mr. W had a weakness for this woman that needed to be protected. We can affair proof a marriage by putting people in a bubble too. I think him riding with her would be fine so long as the conversation was NO DIFFERENT than it is in the office setting. JMHO...but you both know your weaknesses...so, it is best to protect them.

That's really good!

See, I agree with both Mrs W and Jerry. I believe that affairs are premeditated, but what is not premeditated are the overwhelming feelings of infatuation that pulls one across that LINE in the sand. Those feelings that develop because one was not observing proper boundaries. I don't believe those are premeditated.

Jerry, it is about like our feelings for alcohol. We didn't set out to be alcoholics, that craving just sort of creeped up on us while we weren't looking. And then we made a willful CHOICE, based on those powerful feelings, to drink.

Adulterers knowingly and premeditatively walk across that line. But they never PLANNED to have strong feelings of infatuation; they didn't set out to have an affair. Many people who have affairs are decent, good people with whom an affair is an ABERRATION of character. With others, it IS their character.

Dr. Harley talks alot about this very issue on his video that I bumped today. He believes that if one believes they are immune they are probably not protecting themselves from an affair. And because of that, really ARE vulnerable.

I have to confess that I was guilty of this myself up until a few years ago. I firmly believed that I was IMMUNE, no matter what. I was in the habit of having lunch with a male collegue every Monday after our staff meeting. This went on for several years, until I realized how CLOSE we had become. I can SEE how it could happen. I put a quick end to that and have ceased with those kind of lunches.

Anyway, I agree with you BOTH and think y'all should go watch Dr. Harley's comments on this subject: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6806_inf.html

MEDC, a married man giving a ride to a single female is NOT a good idea-PERIOD...

There are other factors about this particular single female as well...She is a FOW-and I like her, I really do, she is a good friend in fact, but that is a BIG RED FLAG...I'm not willing to risk it...

Jerry...I do "OWN" it and have repented of it...That does NOT mean that I wasn't in an altered state once I was in it though-FOG IS REAL...I have been in that gutter...I'm telling you that I was NOT myself then...Mr. W, my MAMA and God could tell you that...

Mrs. W

Very well explained Mel...I completely agree! Thanks!

Mrs. W

Ok, when I say the affair is premeditated, I don't think the WS SET OUT to have an affair.[in most cases] But when they cross that line and ACT on those unpremeditated feelings, they KNOW they are committing adultery. So it is premeditated only in that regard. Hope that is making sense.

Props to Robert Hunter eh?

Incisive, brother...

I totally disagree with the whole premeditation ideas.

Nonsense. There absolutely was NOT a conscious decision made.

I did not plan to have an affair.
And all of the initial actions were completely innocent.

So at what point do you call it an affair?
At what point are you saying there was "pre-meditation"?

Because I knew OM for MONTHS before there was anything inappropriate. My feelings developed before there was anything beyond a friendship.

At what point did you commit adultery? We can't answer that FOR YOU. You have to tell us.

Hi Try and ILMH!!

Sorry we haven't posted in a while! I got a great job and have been putting in long days, while W2S is working nights. The opposite shift thing STINKS, but we have to do it for the summer.

We are doing great, though...there are some pretty big updates, but I'll save that for my thread and not yours. LOL!

It seems your thread has been hi-jacked to debate your question in general and not for you specifically, but it is important to hear all sides of this story. Obviously, a BS is never going to be able to completely relate to a WS (unless they have also been one as well) and vice versa. In the same vein, a BS may be less likely to cheat knowing what they know about the pain...but then again, maybe some are MORE likely...especially when they have begun down that slippery slope without meaning to in the first place. There is the "Well, you did it to ME" factor.

That is why MB is so important. Do you think that your sitch is so unique that the family of doctors who have helped thousands of couples recover their Ms after an A are somehow falling short of understanding the depth of your grief or what is needed for recovery? I am not saying that to be smart, I am saying that because it is what I am reading in your posts.

Don't get me wrong, this is the issue that W2S struggles with the most. The WHY of it... Was it unmet ENs? Was it lack of morals? Was it the perfect storm? Was it something *I* did or didn't do? Why wasn't I good enough? I know I was a good husband and father (or wife and mother)...etc, etc. Or was it a combination of all or some of the above???

The basic fact that you have to get down to is this--it doesn't really matter if you understand why ILMH decided to do what she did. Whether it was pre-meditated or not, etc. What MATTERS is if you love her enough to forgive her.

It is interesting to me that so many here who have recovered, due in large part to the fundamental teachings on this website, suddenly question some of the core elements of the message. One of the STRONGEST points that dr. Harley makes is that we are ALL WIRED FOR AFFAIRS...whether any of you believe it or not. You AREN'T perfect! There IS a situation in which you would find yourself making a decision to go through with it or not...

So, Jerry and MEDC, and Still_Crazy...at THAT point, YES, I believe it is pre-meditated. I knew what I was doing. What I didn't know was that I was making a mistake. In my mind, I thought "everything happens for a reason" and all the other silly [censored] people in the "fog" or whatever look back and see as so foolish. I had approached the point of no return and consciously made the choice to proceed. Maybe THAT is the point at which all of you, ahem, SAINTS (LOL) would stop the game and say--wow, how did I get this far...

I take you back to December when Believer posted her "Believer is getting foggy" thread. I will never forget it. For those of you who missed it, I have linked it...
Believer is getting foggy

It isn't long and well worth the read. After what she went through you would think she would see the signs... she would have thought so as well... (sorry to use you as an "example" B, but that thread really had an affect on me!)

You see, we can never say never or always. And we can't possibly know all of the reasons why someone else does what they do. So, the bottom line is--do you love ILMH enough to forgive her?

Just got off the phone with W2S and he had an interesting point...he does not think any less of me for the choices I have made, because we all make mistakes and have faults/flaws. The very reason he feels he would be able to keep his boundaries in place--making a commitment to love, honor and cherish me through all things in front of our family, friends and God--are the very same reasons he chose to forgive me. He also said our life experiences help define what we may or may not do in any given circumstance. We would both love to believe that after what has happened in our M, neither of us would hurt each other this way again, but the FACT is--we must PROTECT and constantly practice ALL of Dr. Harley's teachings (ie-we are all programmed for affairs) in order to ENSURE that it won't.

Premeditation to me means that I set out to have an affair.
I did not do that. I did not plan it. I did not anticipate it.

I did not look around to find a suitable affair partner.

Do you consider your lunches with your male coworker an emotional affair? Probably not. But it could have led there.
Was that premeditated?

Now there may be some WS out there that are serial cheaters that DO plan affair after affair.

But I think most of us fall into the category of getting into a situation over our heads. I wish I had the tools like MB to recognize the danger before or during my descent into he11.

I already addressed these points in my posts, did you read them?

I believe you when you say you never set out to have an affair. I believe that is most often the case. The feelings were in no way expected or premeditated.

But feelings are very different from ACTIONS and when a person chooses to ACT ON THOSE feelings, that is where the premeditation comes in. They KNOW that their actions are adultery. It is a conscious decision. Those actions do not happen without forethought and intent. If a WS claims they do, then they should not be running around free because that means they have no CONTROL OVER THEIR ACTIONS. Which is nonsense.

I've attached again for easy reference something you have all likely seen posted before on these boards. It's TooSoon's 15 steps to infidelity.

What my wife and I are saying, to dispute the notion of "premeditation" in EVERY choice that leads to the affair is that some of these initial "steps" are untaken, many times, but not ALL the time, with complete unawareness. All of us, currently have relationships with opposite sex persons which already meet a couple of the criteria.

IMO, the "weakness" most often doesn't exist, prior to initial choices (obviously this doesn't apply to the wayward that goes out purposely and "premeditatively" seeking an affair partner). Though, I "feel" I have absolutely no "weakness" to our employee, I need to be ever mindful of POJA and protecting my marriage, which is of the utmost value to me to insure a "weakness" doesn't present itself. However, "weakness" is only a problem when coupled with temptation. Even if I'm never put in temptations way with her (which IS part of the plan by maintaining good boundaries so SHE doesn't develope "feelings" and tempt me either), it's just good practice. Affair proofing a marriage is a PLAN, not a "feeling" (saying you are susceptible is not a fact...it is a "feeling" which can only be proven overtime, feelings change, $hit happens...a "PLAN" is the best way to achieve continued success)

For example, my employee (and anyone's employee for that matter) by definition, meets SOME of my emotional needs. That is a mere happen stance of the employee/employer relationship. Also, over time, you are bound to interact personally with an employee. She certainly shares a common interest (the success of the enterprise and as a key employee moreso than most). We also share a religion (she has come to church with my wife and I). We do talk about personal matters though I am WAY more diligent about staying away from the subject of me and my wife (who she is good friends with). I couldn't possibly relay every conversation we've had to my wife so you could say we share "secrets", though there is nothing secretive about our "relationship" and my wife is free to snoop all she wants. I'm also adding in that I tend to tease and joke around a lot (less so now) and "we" give her gifts, bonuses, kudo's at work based upon her performance. Since I handle the checkbook and day to day operations, SHE may interpret those gifts and kudo's as coming from ME, personally. Since MB, I have been much more mindful of including Mrs. W in such decisions and incorporating her into my communications and meetings with all our female employees. I have even secretly recorded some of those meetings just in case. You never know when a disgruntled employee will make outrageous claims or if Mrs. W will want more details of my communications with a female than I am capable of recalling (I am a man and incapable of remembering exact conversations...how you women do that is beyond me).

As Dr. Harley says...everyone we interact with in life is automatically given a love bank account. All opposite sex relationships of every kind are a threat to your marriage. The "weakness" developes the further you take the steps below. Some of those "steps" are natural occurences that happen everyday between opposite sex relationships, married or not. Some of the steps ARE completely unavoidable. Part of life. IF you are a serial adulterer, you must avoid them ALL completely (and, yes, live in a bubble if you value your marriage). If you value your marriage as much as I do, you avoid and monitor them, with your spouse, as best you can. Obviously, some more than others. Old intimate relationships are first on the WATCHOUT list. Employees are likely second. Bosses are likely third. Co-workers fourth, neighbors fifth and so on.

Anyway...here's the list again: See if you can identify those in your life that are, perhaps, more of a threat than you, at first or ever, imagined and take precautions accordingly. Perhaps preempt a weakness. If you value your marriage, that is.

Mr. W


TOOSOONS - 15 STEPS TO INFIDELITY

I borrowed this from another Web Site on Infidelity. It sounded like the steps my FWW described to me as she explained her affair to me.

-----------------------------

This was a handout for a church group (the statistics are almost identical for church and non-church members when it comes to adultery and divorce) but it does a good job of defining how affairs develop for far too many people. The progression from friend to sexual intimacy and betrayal. It is provided in the hope that it will help newcomers to the forum gain some understanding of what has happened and how it could or might have happened.

Anatomy of Adultery
15 Steps of Unfaithfulness

How does adultery "happen?" People don't just decide one day to hop in bed and be unfaithful to their spouse. Adultery is the culminating act of a dozen or more tiny steps of unfaithfulness. Each step in itself does not seem that serious or much beyond the previous step. Satan draws a person into adultery one tiny step at a time. And he does this over time so that our conscience is gradually seared. This makes it easier to take "just one more step" thinking such a tiny step won't hurt us.

The following "15 steps" which analyze how adultery "happens" are based on scores of interviews, counseling, and correspondence with church folk who fell into unfaithfulness. Our question: "How did this happen... what were the tiny steps which led to this mess?" While the order varied from case to case, the following is the general progression which surfaced in most incidents. This is not some sort of theoretical list. These are the actual steps taken by scores of church people who wound up committing adultery and regretting it later. Some of these people sobbed deeply as they shared, hoping that their own pain and failure might save other marriages. This information comes to you at great expense.

This chapter doesn't have any preaching or analysis... that is left to you. Here we offer you cold word-for-word quotes. You and your Sunday School class can draw out the lessons. How did these lives get ruined? How does it start?


1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny."

"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other."

"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with."

"We both loved horses, and started riding together."

"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work."

"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!"


2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
"My husband wasn't interested much in spiritual things, but this man knew so much about the Bible."

"She was slim, attractive, and dressed sharp -- quite a difference from my wife who didn't take care of herself much at that time."

"She was so understanding and would listen to me and my hurts -- my wife was always so busy and rushed that we didn't have the time to talk.

"My husband just would never communicate -- he'd come home from work and just sit there watching TV. I finally gave up on him. Then this man came along who was worlds apart from my husband -- he was gentile, loved to talk, and would just share little things about his life with me."


3. Meeting emotional needs.
"He understood how I was feeling and offered me the empathy I was hungering for."

"She was there when I needed her."

"My ego was so starved for affirmation that I would have taken it from anyone -- I guess that's what started the whole thing."

"No one had ever really believed in me until he came along. He encouraged me, inspired me, and believed so deeply in what I could become."

"My wife was busy with the kids and not at all involved with my work. This girl admired me and treated me like I was really somebody. It felt so good."


4. Looking forward to being together.
"I used to dread going to work, but after we started our friendship, I would wake up thinking of how I would see him later that day... it seemed to make getting up easier."

"I would think of being with her the whole time I was driving to work."

"I found myself thinking of him as I got dressed each morning, wondering how he would like a certain outfit or perfume."

"I looked forward to choir practice every week because I knew he would be there."

"Every time I drove by her house I would think of her and how we'd see each other that Sunday."


5. Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
"When my wife would ask if she was with the group I'd pretend I couldn't remember... right there I started building a wall between us."

"I would act like I was going to practice with our ensemble, but actually I was practicing a duet with him."

"Once my wife asked about her, but I denied everything, after all, we hadn't done anything wrong yet. Now I see that this was one of those exit points where I could have come clean and got off the road I was speeding down."

"Whenever we got together as couples I would act like I didn't care about him, and afterward I would even criticize him to my husband. I guess I was trying to hide my real feelings from my husband."


6. Flirting and teasing.
"I could tell from the way she looked at me. She would gaze directly into my eyes, then furtively glance down my body then back into my eyes again -- I knew then that she was interested in more than my friendship. But, I was so flattered by her interest that I couldn't escape."

"Then we started teasing each other, often with double-meaning kind of things. Sometimes we'd tease each other even when we were together as two couples. It seemed innocent enough at first, but more and more we knew it really did mean something to us."

"We would laugh and talk about how it seemed like we were "made for each other" so much. Then we'd tease each other about what kind of husband or wife the other one would have been if we'd married each other."

"He had those killer eyes. When he'd look at me in that "special way" I would just melt. It was hopeless fighting my urges -- he had me."


7. Talking about personal matters.
"We would talk about things -- not big things, just little things which he cared about, or I was worried about."

"We'd meet together for coffee before church and just talk together."

"I was having problems with my son and she seemed to understand the whole situation so much better than anyone else I talked with. I'd tell her about the most recent blow-up and she would understand so well. We just became really deep friends -- almost soul-mates. That's what's so weird about all this -- we never intended for it to go this far."

"I had lost my Dad just before we got to know each other and he had lost his mother a few years earlier. He seemed to understand exactly what I was going through and we would talk for hours about how each of us felt."

"I was so lonely since my husband died and hungry for someone to share life with. Then he began to call just because he cared. I loved hearing his caring voice at the other end of the line, even though I knew he was married."

"We spent so much time together at work that I swear she knew more about me than my wife ever did -- or even cared to know."


8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
"He never touched me for months. Then one night after working late, we were walking toward the door when he said 'You're so special, thanks for all you do..." then he turned and hugged me tenderly, just for a second. I loved how I felt for that moment so much that I began to replay it over and over again in my mind like a videotape. Now I know that I should have stopped it all right then. I never intended to ruin my family like this."

"She was always hanging around our house and was my wife's best friend. Often she would stay late to watch TV, even after my wife went to bed. She would sit beside me on the couch and I was drawn to her like the song says... like a moth to the flame."

"He would often pat me on the shoulder -- you know, in appreciation for a good job I'd done. But I knew it meant more than that."

"The first time she touched me was when we were doing registration together. We were sitting beside each other. I'd say something cute or funny and she would giggle, then under the table she'd squeeze the top of my leg with her hand. That was really exciting to me."

"Every time she shook hands with me at the door she seemed to linger, sort of holding my hand more than shaking it. No one else would notice, but I knew there was more to her touch than appeared to the eyes. She knew too."


9. Special notes or gifts.
"He would write these little encouraging notes and leave them in my desk, pocketbook, or taped to my computer. They didn't say anything which could be traced. If anyone found them they wouldn't suspect anything. But we both knew what was going on, we just didn't want to stop yet."

"I would sometimes call him and leave a short message on his answering machine. He would leave little notes in my Bible."

"He would buy me a little gift -- not that expensive, but it always showed he had taken extra thought to get exactly what I liked. Of course everyone else thought he was just being a good boss."

"She started leaving unsigned notes to me in my desk sharing her feelings for me. It scared me at first, because I thought someone would find one. But after a while I found myself looking forward to the next one, even though I knew the risk."


10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
"I started figuring out ways I could drop off something at her house when her husband was gone. He and I knew each other and I would always return borrowed tools in the afternoon when I knew she'd be there alone."

"I would wait until the end of the workday then I'd call him just before closing time about something I'd made up as a 'business question' and we'd talk."

"The more entangled we got, the more I planned times where he and I could practice together. We started meeting more often."

"She started arranging her schedule so that her husband dropped her off at committee meetings. I would hang around and offer to take her home, acting with as much nonchalance as I could muster up."


11. Arranging secret meetings.
"By now we both were so far gone that we started meeting secretly at the mall parking lot. It know now how foolish this was, but I was driven by something other than good sense at that time."

"We started arranging to work evenings on the same nights, then we would leave early and meet each other in the dark parking lot."

"I started making sure he knew my travel schedule so we could attend the same conferences. We still weren't involved physically at that time, but there was such excitement and romance to it all... even the secrecy seemed to make it more exciting."

"She would sometimes call me just before lunch and we'd sneak through a drive-up together, and then spend the rest of my lunch hour talking quietly to each other."


12. Deceit and cover ups.
"Once we were meeting secretly I had to invent all kinds of stories about where I'd been to satisfy my wife. By now I had built a towering wall of dishonesty between us."

"Pretty soon my whole life was full of lies. I'd lie about where I was going, where I'd been, and who I'd been with. The more suspicious my husband got, the better liar I became. But he knew something was going on. It's hard to lie without people suspecting it."

"I joined several groups so that I would have an excuse to be away in the evenings."

"She would ask when I'd gotten off work. I'd simply lie about it, and she never knew what hit her. How can I ever regain her trust now?"

"We agreed that if anyone saw us driving around we would both tell the same story: that my car wouldn't start, he stopped to help, an we were going together to get a new fuse to replace the broken one he'd discovered."

"By now my whole life was a lie, so I began telling them regularly to cover up our little meetings."


13. Kissing and embracing.
"The whole thing seemed so exciting by now. I was such a fool. We were meeting secretly and both of us were fearful of being caught. But that only seemed to increase our common ground. When we'd meet, we would embrace as if we'd not been together for years -- like in the movies when someone comes home from the war."

"Once we started meeting secretly the end came fast. We kissed and hugged like two teenagers going parking for their first time."

"It just felt so good to be hugged and loved by somebody who really cared about me."


14. Petting and high indiscretion.
"At this point my glands took over. I forgot reason altogether and was willing to risk everything for more."

"It was like I was a teenager again -- going too far, then repenting and promising to do better; then just as quick I was hungrily seeking more sin."

"When my husband and I were dating we struggled with 'how far to go.' Well, here I was again struggling over the same issue. Friendship with this guy didn't seem so wrong. But now were we're going further than I ever intended. But, I felt curiously justified going exactly as far as I had with my husband when had been dating. In a way, I think some of my resentment against my husband's constant pressure on me started coming out. I'm not saying that it wasn't wrong. Just that I kind of felt justified."

"At about this time I began fooling myself into thinking I was heroic for not going "all the way." That's what I wanted to do. But by doing "everything but" I fooled myself into thinking I was successfully resisting temptation. What I didn't realize was that, not only was what I was doing wrong, but that eventually I would take the next step. It's just not possible to freeze a relationship -- you have to go ahead with it, or break it off totally."


15. Sexual intercourse.
"Soon I quit resisting and was swept into outright adultery."

"One thing led to another and finally we ended up in bed with each other."

"Though we never intended it to go that far, we eventually went all the way and had sex."

"One night we couldn't seem to stop ourselves (at least we didn't want to) so I completed my journey of unfaithfulness to my husband -- I had sex with this man." _________________________

Perhaps not the very first day you met your OP. I would argue that at some point you did in fact do these things. They WERE premeditated.

I don't think they can either. We just don't know any better! LOL

For me personally everything you all are saying does not apply.

I do not have male friends. I certainly have male co-workers but would NEVER go anywhere ALONE with a male (meaning to lunch or giving them a ride or anything) whether they were married or single. Conversations that take place are always about family things.

I have my H for anything i would need a male perspective on. So therefore, for me, I have not EVER put myself in a situation where anything could happen. And truly have not found it DIFFICULT.

Adding another thought, I have ALWAYS, since the day i met my H, prior to doing something with or saying something to any one of the opposite sex (married or single), ask myself, would it bother me if my H were doing or saying this. If the answer is YES then i would not even CONSIDER doing or saying whatever it is.

I feel i have ALWAYS protected my M in this way and it has never been difficult.

That is why i find it hard to believe that it is that easy to have an A.

SC;

I don't really know why this is all about you.
You have good boundries. Good for you.

Apparently your husband was doing a good job of meeting your emotional needs.

The question is the "why" of the affair, and is obviously not something you have any insight on.

TTH;
I'm not going to quibble about the whole "premeditated" question.
I guess we all have different definitions of that. But I suspect your wife would not agree with you if you told her she premeditated the affair.

Obviously once IN the affair there were lots of actions you could classify that way. But leading up to it, there is no malice of forethought. It was not my intent to participate in an affair, and I doubt it was your wife's intent.

How more can we help you? What are you struggling with?

Perhaps the A begins with the decision to lie to the BS? In that respect, many As probably start much earlier than many of us recognize. But the decision to lie is what enables everything else to happen, and after the first lie, the snowball effect commences.

I am not trying to make it about me. I struggle with the same question myself "WHY".

And my H was not doing a good job of meeting my EN but i still have ALWAYS had my personal boundaries in place.

And i truly do not understand why everyone thinks that is so diffucult is all.

And i also believe the TTH thinks the same thing that i do, that it is not just that simple.

There was a time in my life that I followed those rules too SC.

But after years of neglect, of my H and I living separate lives, of me begging for his participation -- I GAVE UP.

I was convinced that my H was only married to me out of convenience. That he didn't give my feelings, needs, or wants a second thought.

It was at the point that I was GLAD when he left for his "guy" weekends. It was easier for me and the kids to just have him gone. (In contrast, most of his buddies had to beg and earn their way out for the weekend!)

So no, when somebody started paying attention to me, it didn't occur to me to tell my husband about it. I didn't WANT that to stop and of course my husband finding out about it would make it stop. And I didn't think it was wrong, because at that point it was extremely innocent. It wasn't even flirting, just talking.

So, why is it impossible to understand how these things start?

***********************My vote for best post on this thread:

Hey Pep,

Do you think this is a NOTABLE post?

Well i guess i find it hard to understand because i do not believe in having "girls" or "guys" nights out for one thing and neither of us have ever done this. Once you are married you are a team.

And i felt i was a good wife and we had (up until the A) ALWAYS talked to one another about everything. We are one anothers best friend. So "why" did this change all of the sudden. I do not understand why he felt the need to talk to someone else when he had never had a problem talking to me before.

And like Tyk stated he started with that first lie and then it seemed easier and easier to tell more and more lies when for the first 24 years he had NEVER lied to me (that i know of).

So i DO NOT understand and probably never will which is too bad for me because i think it has held up my recovery.

Doesn't change how i feel though.

I also assumed that my H had the same personal boundaries that i had because we had discussed it many times (i obviously assumed wrong). And his parents split up when he was younger due to infidelity and he always said he would never let that happen, that if he wanted to be with someone else he would leave BEFORE he took those first steps and i said the same thing.

THIS is where I think the disconnect is, SC. Maybe this is not a TRUE statment. Maybe your FWH didn't talk to YOU about everything, even before the A; you are assuming he did. This may have left him an avenue to have his EN met for conversation/general attention/admiration elsewhere. His affair didn't just fall in his lap, it didn't just HAPPEN, it developed over time.

This is how a lot of work-related A's start. Two people start talking, sometimes just joking, then they FEEL a spark, then they talk some more, conversation gets more intimate, then they start to realize they are feeling something POSSIBLY inappropriate, since they're married and all, then they are addicted and it's too late. Consider they spend 8-10 hours, on average, around each other, every day. It's EASY to fuel a fantasy with that amount of time.

Some people CHOOSE to never be unfaithful, and it sounds like you are one. SOME (very few). I wouldn't assume, however, that you might now change your mind and choose differently. NEVER SAY NEVER is a steadfast motto of mine these days.

IMO, I think recovery IS contingent on the BS believing that everybody makes mistakes, even horrendous, earth shattering ones, that can nearly destroy all in it's path, and be able to forgive said mistake and move forward. That is IF the WS is doing all they can to help make the marriage work, pulling their weight and attempting to make amends.

Well for my H anyway, his work is pretty much independent he is out in the field all day and very rarely is there another co-worker with him so he does not spend 8-10 hours per day with them.

He actually would not have even seen the OW except one day a week for about 15 minutes BUT she took a liking to my H and went to his job site on a daily basis to get her "fix" of him and gave him her "damsel in distress" ploy and he fell for it hook line and sinker.

And as of yet i have not changed my mind about my personal boundaries. I do not have male friends and do not talk to males about anything personal.

I am not saying that it could not happen but i try very hard to make sure that I am not in a situation for it TO happen and truly think that i ALWAYS will (could be wrong, not the first time and not the last time either).

You naturally always practiced EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS, which is fantastic. Sadly, your FWH did not. I believe recovery does hinge on being able to forgive your spouse. In my case, I was willing to do that, and was trying, however, it is extremely difficult to forgive someone for the offense of abandonment and infidelity, when they are actively still doing one or the other or both. Meh, such is life.

This has been a very enlightening thread.

The afternoon I exposed to Gollum’s BW she made a very interesting comment and question.

We recalled a dinner that both couples went to three years earlier and fully two years before the EA started. She asked me, “Did you feel a spark or something inappropriate between them that night?”

The truthful answer from me was that I had not. But obviously she did. Now her infidelity sensory array system was far more developed than mine at that time as she had already been betrayed twice by Gollum. But it has always left me wondering when did the premeditated thoughts of this adultery begin?

I think the “15 Steps of Infidelity” define Wayzilla and Gollums adultery very accurately, but the seeds of inappropriate premeditation had been planted far, far earlier.

I, for one, did NOT have really strong boundaries in place for things like flirting and the like prior to PWC's affairs. When I look back at some of my behavior, it certainly could have led me down the path that he took, it really was just a matter of CHOICE. I chose fidelity. I'm sure sparks have flown between me and other men before, but I took them as fun, flighty, flattering things, NEVER as something to hang my hat on, so to speak.

Fast forward to NOW. I do not conduct myself in the same manner. I'm still very outgoing, but I conduct myself differntly around men. I don't have lunch alone with them or touch them, and I don't bat my eyes and various other ritual mating type behaviors. I can still feel needs being met by conversation with my work mates, men and women alike. I have that need met here too, to some extent. There is a line there, and I know not to cross it.

Being single is going to be strange for me.

We choose our path, it doesn't choose us.

Maybe I am the only when who thinks this way, but I don't think you have to agree with it to understand it. When I read your posts, it seems like you think folks are saying you need to agree.

I sometimes think that is a polarizing issue on this board. Whenever a FWS trys to explain the "why", seems like every BS's takes that as the FWS's arguing the "correctness" of it or advocating the behavior. I don't think they are doing that.

I understand fully why my FWW had an A. I just don't agree with much of it.

If SH feels (I can't remember his POV from when we talked) "failing to protect weaknesses" means nothing more than a person allowed another to meet EN's then I don't agree with it as the "why" of an A. I can understand it, but don't agree. Frankly, I don't think I have to in order to recover. Because generally, I think understanding (as opposed to agreeing) is enough to be able to forgive.

For me the "failing to protect weaknesses" concept encompasses more than just allowing another to meet EN's. Which is why I posted that I felt "failing to protect weaknesses" is not a "simple" explanation.

To me, weakness comes when you are relatively unhappy. This applies to people who are just unhappy and begin to seek something to make them happy and to people who find themselves in situations that all of a sudden make them happier (i.e. the attention of a OP).

"Protecting" that weakness is about solving that relative unhappiness problem in a mature, short and long term appropriate, acceptable way. I think anyone who has an A ultimately failed at that.

When one wants to get to why the failed in the manner they failed. Most times, I think it's unfortunate opportunity.

To me the "why" is the most important thing.

You need to know "why" to protect it from happening again and i just do not agree or understand that simply "failing to protect your weaknesses" is "why" any affair happens.

If this is the supposed reason "why", then why did it not happen earlier in the relationship. There has to be more to it than that. There has to be a reason it happened "when" it happened.

SC - I'm really not trying to change your mind. So, I am just answering your question based on my opinion.

On the question of why not earlier, my response would be the person did not have either a) the weakness earlier (i.e. a relative state of unhappiness) or b) an opportunity/threat against those weaknesses.

Anyway, I just posted what I did to see if it may help TTH sort through this.

As to why it didn't happen sooner, my feeling is that the WS that never chose to commit adultery before, simply decided to do it this time.

This thread is starting to remind me of an old commercial...

Great Taste!
Less Filling!

TTH. I left a response on your wife's thread about letting go and choosing to forgive. That's what you need to decide. Not why it happened. Why it happened will never fix your marriage.

Even if you were told exactly why it happened, you could never understand it. To you ANY answer is beyond your comprehension. When you get to that point, you have to choose to stop asking the question.


Good luck. I know it's hard.

Well said. Thank you all for your opinions and helping us through this. I don't think there is ever going to be a good enough answer to the why of the affair. I don't know myself why I chose to do what i did. I didn't have this fantasy to run away with the guy or anything. I knew my husband was better than him. So why did I do it? It did feel good at first to have someone meeting some of my emotional needs especially conversation, but I have to say when things started to get physical I never felt worse about myself. I wasn't eating and lost a lot of weight. I was having awful dreams, I felt tired all the time. I was depressed. I was not having the time of my life during those last two and a half months after the Physical part of the A started, so why did I keep doing it? Your guess is as good as mine...

Sorry I had to bail on this thread last night but 4am comes very early. Spent some time cathching up on all of this and don't want others to think that "why" is irrevelant. Dr Carder in " Torn Assunder"(which is a very good book) states that it is imperative.

How is a WS know exactly how to affair proof a M, unless and until, they completely understand the process that brought them to their A in the first place?


IAM, this is so completely untrue and false that it's almost laughable! Kinda reminds me of an Ostrich with it's head in the sand. Considering your newness here, it's understandable. Sorry, don't mean this to be condescending(sp), but I expect you will feel differently in the future.


To Mrs. W and Lexxy and others,

I never meant my remarks as a personal assault on you or other WS's. If you took it that way, I apoligize for my tone and demeanor. Mostly, my responses were with my own FWW in mind. She had a hard time accepting blame for her actions, but I think she finally has it now.

TTH, your WW seems Godly sorrowful for her actions. To affair proof your M, she and yes you, will need a "WHY" to all of this and that will take EXTREME honesty! It's pretty hard for a WS to look in the mirror, cause it hurts like heck, and nobody wants to volunteer for that.

I do wish you and your FWW much sucess in your journey for the "ugly" truth. It will however, facilitate a M built like the fortress it was meant to be.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I believe that the why is different for everyone. I know that two years ago when i was really depressed about moving so far away from my family and not knowing anyone in the area i was not honest with TTH. I didn't tell him how very upset I was about something that he was doing. I will say that I tried, but not hard enough. I was lonely and sad and I believe this is why it was so easy to become close to someone else. I had convinced myself that TTH didn't care about me. I let those boundaries be moved and off I went letting someone else meet those needs that should have been met by my husband. I did not protect myself from it. I liked the attention I was getting and it was wrong.

Is this why? Is it some other reason that I can't see. This is why I think I had an affair, because I was not open enough with my husband when it was critical to be. Because I was not open with him I allowed someone to come in. Because I moved that boundary It was easy to move other ones before i knew they were even being moved.

Is this making sense? TTH wants to know why the affair happened, wants to know what I was thinking... I was thinking he didn't care about me anymore..

Don't mistake my newness to the board as lack of experience as a BS (I've been in recovery over 2 years).

Frankly, you are condesending. And you can expect whatever you like about my future.

Id like to ask you something....

How can one understand something one says they could never commit? Something they've never experienced? A feeling totally foreign to them?

Can a WS understand the pain of the BS? If not, then how can the BS understand the 'why' of the betrayal? It is something out of their comprehension. There really are questions that cannot be answered.

Can you explain what an orange tastes like to someone who has never tasted one?

Thanks for you concern.

So here I sit X years later, what should I do that I am not doing now?

FORGIVE HER

But I have chosen to forgive her, ...where did I go wrong?

By chosing to harbor your feelings of anger,bitterness, and resentment.

Very wise words.

TTH,

Sorry it's been a while. I have been following your threads though. I just don't post too often because I'm very busy with the boys and I still have many of my own struggles.

I agree whole heartedly with Dr. Harley that we are all wired for As. It's part of human nature. It's what drives us to procreate and ensure the existence of our species. Throw in the fact that we have become a ME ME ME society and that we are constantly bombarded with infidelity in music, movies, tv and it is a recipe for disaster. Where my opinion differs is that one's life experiences and personality can lessen the likelihood that we would have an A. I know that I cannot say I would NEVER have an A, but I'm also strong enough in my convictions to say that I do not believe when faced with the opportunity that I would have an A. Even 3 months before LaLa's A she would have swore that she would never have an A. I would have backed her up 100% and bet my life on it. Obviously, we were both wrong or we wouldn't be here. So why do I say that I do not believe I would have an A?

I have an innate fear of God. I took vows before God, my family and friends that I would "love, honor and cherish" LaLa "forsaking all others" and "for better or worse". I made my choice when I made these promises. To break these vows would be damning myself and I believe my fear would prevent me from doing it. The commitment I have to these vows is the same commitment that has given me the strength to recover from LaLa's A. This is just the "worse" part of the vows I made.

I took a vow for my ODS Many of you probably don't know, but our ODS was born with a heart defect that required open heart surgery at 23 hours old. He was on the brink of death and this operation was his only chance for survival. Actually, I don't even know that I have ever shared this story with LaLa. In that first 24 hours after surgery, when he was hanging by a thread, I went to the chapel and begged God to spare his life. I gave my solemn vow that no matter what happened I would never abandon him or this family. That I would do anything in my power to provide the best life possible for him. From that moment on he turned the corner and recovered. To me, turning against that vow would be like turning against my ODS. Something I do not believe I could do.

I'm a terrible liar I know that I can not tell lies. Even little white lies are difficult for me. You can read me like an open book. Plus, I know that secrets always find a way of coming out. I'm just not naive enough to believe that I could ever get away with it.

I over analyze EVERYTHING DUH! If you have ever read any of my posts you know how true this is. Even the simplest decisions require me to weigh the pros and cons to make a choice. To some degree, I think I suffer from mild OCD. I obsess over the smallest details. I believe during this thought process that I couldn't choose to go against me beliefs or the promises I have made.

I have previous experience with As Before LaLa and I were married, I was cheated on by several girlfriends. I also had the unfortunate experience of catching one girlfriend in bed with an OM. None of those relationships survived. I have always known full well the kind of damage that infidelity can cause. Because of these events, I have ALWAYS kept extraordinary precautions as part of my life. I can honestly say that not even once have I had a conversation with someone of the opposite sex that I would not have had in front of LaLa.

I gave my word to LaLa Because of my previous experiences the subject of infidelity was discussed openly throughout our marriage. It was something I knew we needed to avoid at all costs. I knew it would be something that I would struggle to overcome because of my beliefs and personality. LaLa and I have made many promises to one another that we would never inflict this on the other. I'm a firm believing that a man is only as good as his word. I think my belief in that would prevent me from breaking my word.

I think a big part of the problem with these types of discussions is that when someone claims they would NEVER have an A it automatically insinuates a superiority over those that have. It's been proven time and time again on these boards that you should NEVER say NEVER. My DW included. I think a better way of stating it would be that "I do not believe that I would choose to have an A."

You see, some of the people I have the most respect for on MB are FWS(I hate labeling them). First and foremost would be my DW LaLa. It must take an incredible amount of courage to come here and face one's demons head on. Then, to come up against threads like this one, which in essence boil down to character assassination must be very disheartening. I have told LaLa many times throughout our recovery that I view her no differently today than the day we were married. She is my equal and my partner regardless of her faults, flaws or mistakes. I am not perfect. I have plenty of faults and flaws of my own. We are all capable of horrendous things under the right circumstances. Things we would never dream we are capable of doing. Everyone here has a breaking point. We are after all human aren't we?

Want2Stay

W2S..I disagree wholeheartedly. No one has insinuated a superiority over anyone else by suggesting they do not share THE SAME weaknesses.
What is it about this that gets everyone's panties in a bunch? I am different than you...and you are different than others. We share some of the same weaknesses...but not all.
Some people have a weakness for sex with minors...does that mean all do??? No. I can say NEVER to this weakness....NEVER.
Some people can drink responsibly...others can't handle even one drink without regressing into a problem area.
Some people have addictive personalities...others do not.

It is recognizing differences between people and NOT suggesting superiority. I don't think I am superior to your wife...or any other Fws...I DO think I have no problem dealing with an area of my life that has presented them issue.

No matter what people here will try and get others to believe...we are all different and react differently to situations.

THH:

while I'm not saying it holds for your WW's case, I agree with her that it is very possible to fall into an A. It's called an infatuation. You might try goggling "infatuation" and read up on the psychology of the phenomenon. Basically, a person, when infatuated, literally becomes addicted to another person, and is acting under the influence of hormones and other brain chemicals that make her irrational. The decision to have sex usually comes after a period of probably months of an EA, wherein some unmet EN's are being fulfilled, and the infatuation grows. By the time the decision to have sex is thrust upon her, she is so under the influence, that the ability to say no is extremely difficult, as difficult as an alcoholic refusing another drink.

I'm not trying to excuse her behavior, but, like you, I was trying to understand how it happened to the wife I thought I knew for 23 years.

Seriously, I don't understand why folks feel that others are being "superior" to them if they say they would "NEVER" commit some sin. huh? Why would one choose to FEEL inferior rather than be HAPPY that this person would not subject themselves [realistically or not] to that sin? I don't understand that.

Feeling inferior is a CHOICE. It is a personal problem of my own making that no one else is responsible for. No one MAKES me feel that way except ME. The buck stops RIGHT HERE. If I feel envious or inferior it is because of the lady in the mirror.

I wonder if the feeling is really ENVY?

I know many of you will NEVER be alcoholics. If you tell me you "could never be an alcoholic" I don't feel inferior, I feel HAPPY FOR YOU and hope you are right!

If someone says they could never commit adultery, don't you HOPE THEY ARE RIGHT? I DO!!!

I do hope their confidence does not lead them to ignore proper boundaries, though. <----------THAT is my only concern. Not my immature feelings of inferiority.

p.s. I don't need any of you to tell me you are "wired to be an alcoholic" either. I hope NONE OF YOU ARE! It makes no difference to me if think you are or aren't.

One underlying current here might give some cause for thought....Every WS thought they were not capable cheating. Yet they all did.

Maybe the tact to take is the opposite? Assume you are capable and defend against it? Just a thought.

agree 100%

Yes, the folks who are the most vulnerable - USUALLY - are the ones who think they WON'T do it, BECAUSE, they do not take proper precautions.

edited to add: I DO NOT WISH that upon any of my fellow board members. I hope and pray they are all right. And I hope and pray - sincerely - that NONE of you ever become alcoholics. It would give me NO PLEASURE. NONE

MEDC,

Hey, If your panties are in a bunch that's your own business.


Unless you were hatched or you are really an alien from another planet you do share this weakness whether you admit it or not. It's part of your physiological makeup. You were born with an attraction to the opposite sex. You were born with a desire to procreate. It's part of nature. Sharing the same weakness is not the same thing as being prone to acting on that weakness.

Dr. Harley wrote:
We are all wired for affairs. The only people who are exempt are those who are utterly incapable of meeting someone else's emotional needs. If you can't meet anyone's needs, no one will ever fall in love with you. But if your spouse has anything to offer others, and you are not meeting an important emotional need, commitment to "forsake all others" can become words without meaning. How Do Affairs Begin?


For what it's worth, I was agreeing with what you are saying. When you say that you would "never have an A" I do believe you. I feel the same way. Not because I do not share the same weakness of those that have, but because I have always maintained boundaries that made it a near impossibility. I don't think I met even one of the criteria that Mr. W posted about steps of an A. I know that one's beliefs, life experiences, and values can cause someone to implement extraordinary precautions without even knowing that is what they are doing because that is how I have lived my life.

The whole point of my previous post was to show the difference between saying "I would NEVER have an A" and "I do not believe that I would have an A." Both sentences mean the same thing. The first portrays that you can see into the future and envision every possible circumstance or situation you will ever encounter for the rest of you life. If that's the case, then you must have a crystal ball on you desk and an ability to see into the future that none of us know about. If that is true, then please send me next weeks winning lottery numbers. Since none of that is possible, the second sentence is a more accurate statement. Is it really that big a deal for me to suggest that everyone(not just you) use the other verbiage rather than saying "NEVER?" Remember, I'm the BS here. So your usage of that term has no direct impact on me. I do however see how using that term could be hurtful to those that believed the same thing at one time.

Want2Stay

TTH - I'm really puzzled about exactly WHAT you want from ILMH?

What you WANT is a time machine so that she never had an affair. Sorry about that. W2S has been on at me about one of them too but nothing's doing.

Why is it you can't accept that she didn't protect her weaknesses as CHOSE to have an affair as a valid reason? What reason will satisfy you? That would be the reason my wife would offer and I accept it. NOTHING she says will change the past.

For her NOW to be aware of her weaknesses and protect you and your marriage against them should be enough for you to move on IMHO. It was for me and 3 years into recovery it's a blessed view indeed. OPR you can let this poison kill you and your future.

For both my FWW and me, this is our second marriage. Both of us divorced our first spouses for adultery. For FWW, it was when she had a DD, age 2, and pregnant with her second. For years, she recounted how she would continually cry, "How could he do this to me?".

Yet, ironically, knowing the trauma an affair can, and does, cause, she went and had an affair after 23 years of marriage. Now that she had ceased contact for over a month, the fog is beginning to lift, and she can relate of how she didn't know who she was, that she just couldn't stop thinking about OM, and that she would look in the mirror, and didn't know who was looking back. She admits at the time she didn't think the lies and deceit were wrong, and wasn't even aware of all the anxiety and sleepless nights I was suffering (even though I had paced the living room floor all night several times, at which she complained I kept her awake). It is all part of the infatuation that so heavily influences the person, making them literally insane.

Yes, you are right. No matter what anyone proclaims, anyone is susceptible to an affair, if they are emotionally vulnerable and someone comes along and fills up their love bank. It is best to assume anyone is capable, or at least susceptible, and to take precautions against it. Dr. Harley has a book dedicated to just that.

As the fog began to lift, I reminded my FWW of her question of years earlier, and pointed out that she now has her answer.

FWIW i do not feel SUPERIOR to anyone, actually quite the opposite, I have the lowest self esteem in the world.

MEDC I don't think that you are insinuating a superiority. But I also think sometimes other people are. No one specifically on this thread.

I don't know, the bigger issue to me is shame.

Whenever one observe's something someone else has done and claim they would never do that, one put's them in the position of either defending themselves (externally or internally) or feeling ashamed, assuming they have a normal conscience.

When my father looks at the size of the TV I own and says I would never spend that much money on a TV, I can either feel ashamed, defend my purchase by saying its important to me, or defend it by arguing that he might spend that much if he had the extra money. I can express this to him, or I can reach one of those conclusions and keep it to myself.

In the case of an A, the person can't really defend the action and if the other party keeps hammering home they would never do it, then the FWS has nothing left to do but feel ashamed. Nobody likes to feel ashamed. And when you do, you feel inferior. When somebody says something to you that makes you feel inferior, you feel they are insinuating they are superior.

FWS's probably already feel a pretty fair amount of shame. I have no idea how much they should feel. I don't think you can measure it. But I do feel pretty sure that if one's recovery plan involves consistently reminding them of it, I think recovery will fail. And I think the FWS's here are trying to point that out.

TTH - I think you have been given plenty of posts that suggest the "why" may be something other than your FWW is just a "bad person". I've seen plenty of posts that suggest that unfortunately, the "why" is nothing more than she is just a "bad person." Thus far, it seems to me that you are coming up with objections to the former and agreements with the later. This suggests two things to me. The first, is that their is no "right" answer, due to the number of differing views. The second, is you asked the question with a bias. You should probably consider that. Perhaps reread the posts take a run at supporting the ones that suggest the "why" is something other than your FWW is a bad person and objecting at the one that suggest otherwise. I am not saying this as a fantasy or delusional exercise. I am saying it because if you have a bias, it is easy to only "hear" what supports your bias.

Finally, I think you should be thankful your FWW agrees with the MB principles and the explanation of "why". In the long term that will give you a better chance at recovery, which I assume is your goal. My FWW did not. Because of this, our recovery has been slower than it should be.

I agree and I think that is what this all comes down too. People that have done terrible things frequently would like to feel that given the same set of circumstances nearly everyone would have done the same thing....but, that just isn't always true.


The ONLY reason that this continues to be talked about on this thread is because FWS here have made a point to keep it alive by telling a few of us here that our thinking is all wrong. People can tell me a thousand times that I am "wired for an affair" and I may choose to respond that they are wrong.

Dr. Harley is a bright guy...but he does not have the ability to prove that we are all wired for affairs. He can say that in his experience, he has seen a large percentage of people that are vulnerable to affairs (despite their previous beliefs to the contrary)...he can make a general statement about the human condition...but it doesn't apply to everyone. Nothing involving emotions and intellect applies to everyone (or all).

No FWS here IMHO needs to defend their past actions to me...why would they. I do not judge anyone negatively that has turned their life around. WS are a different story. Some of the best posters here...and I am sure they are great people IRL..are FWS. Despite the fact that a few have become sarcastic and a bit rude at times on this thread (which according to a mod..sarcasm is just fine), I still respect them for the people they are today and the changes they have made in their lives.

I feel more then just a fair amount of shame and no I don't think I can measure it. It is awful, but what is the suggestion when a BS needs to get their anger out and needs to vent about what he/she is feeling? Is the constant reminder just something that as a FWS we need to be patient with and know that someday the BS might not have to say how awful you were being to them? And how malicious it was. Because it really hurts, but sometimes I feel as though I deserve it. (Something inside tells me feeling as though I deserve it will not help me in the long run be a stronger person) Yet, I am fully aware that there are consequences to my actions, is this part of the consequences?

All I am really interested in is...Is this going to help us in recovery or does it inhibit the process? My goal is to recover and not have just an "average marriage", but a great one filled with years of love.

I think TTH's struggle with the "why" is quite normal. It is a predictable part of the recovery process, and your recovery has been set back/reset due to the truth finally coming out.

BSs have to deal with alot of anger and resentment. It is difficult for the BS to piece reality back together in the wake of an A. It takes time. I think I struggled with the "why" for two or three months. I understand, on an intellectual level, the idea of "failing to protect boundaries". It doesn't FEEL true to me, or at least it doesn't feel COMPLETE. I mean, of course a WS does not protect boundaries, and that is how an A progresses, but the real question is WHY did the WS not protect thier boundaries, and even more importantly for recovery: what is the WS going to do to insure that they will never again fail to protect thier boundaries. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that I probably would never fully understand the "why", but that it didn't really matter all that much because my W was doing what was needed to demonstrate remorse and show that she had learned from the experience and that she would not fail again. Through that struggle my W was there, willing to talk, apologizing, and DOING things that helped me. Her recovery efforts did not answer the "why", but they helped me let go of my intense struggle with the question.

Tyk,

Can you give my an example of some of the things your W was doing? I feel like i am definitely doing all those thing you mentioned, but i don't want to leave any stone unturned. What things worked for you two in helping you feel like she was doing all she could towards recovery? I want TTH to see that i am serious about our recovery. I want those deep wounds to heal.

I agree that it isn't always true. I also think that people like to feel that there is a set (not neccessarily the same) of circumstances where people would do the same thing.

Anyway, in my own personal life, while I know these types of statements can sound like a defense of the behavior, I view it as a request for some compassion.


I've got no problem with that.

I can't be envious of people who claim to be affair-proof, because I've never had an affair either, and can't imagine ever having an affair, so I share a bit of skepticism when I read that I am "wired" that way. I don't feel vulnerable to that particular weakness. However, I remember reading these things from Dr. Harley:



But he's not alone, and I'm sure he didn't make those bold statements based solely on his practice...but also on research and good logical observation. Psychologists, Scientists, Anthropologists, all agree that there are evolutionary reasons that so many of them say we are "wired" for affairs. Helen Fisher's ground breaking research has impacted the MC business in a big way. Peggy Vaughn wrote the "Monogamy Myth" a long time ago....and she's a huge marriage advocate. The late Shirley Glass understood the temptation that our biology and emotional needs create. Dr. Harley is in good company.


I don't envy people who believe they are affair proof....I worry about them. One of the reasons that people don't take proper precautions, defend good marital boundaries, or remain in denial despite red flags, is they believe that "this could never happen to me".

Dr. Harley:


Yes, people are all different and even though we all may have SOME vulnerability because of our common biology....research also shows that some people are MORE inclined than others.

There was a recent interview on the Today Show:

Are we wired to cheat on our mates?...oo surprised by spouses who have affairs



I think I am very low risk for an affair, and I think I'm not in the group of people more "inclined" to an affair, but I don't want to raise risk, by denying ANY risk. I'm willing to concede that it's "possible" for me to cheat even though I can't imagine EVER EVER doing it. I firmly believe that if I'm aware of that vulnerability then I have the BEST chance of ACTIVELY guarding myself from falling prey to it. I can't prevent something I refuse to acknowledge. I can keep my faith strong. I can educate myself. I can practice honesty with my spouse. I can study the tragic consequences I see all around me. I can recognize that when my needs go unmet that temptations will be put in my path. I can become involved in marriage advocacy. I can practice keeping good boundaries in place. In short, while I don't claim to be immune to infidelity because I'm different or better....I believe that I can actively PREVENT choosing the tragedy of infidelity by recognizing the folly of believing I'm invulnerable.

SF, I think your post makes a lot of sense...I will however suggest that I worry more about people that are so unsure of their morals and integrity that they would inflict the worst possible harm on the ones they care most about. If infidelity is truly one of the worst things that can happen to a person...worse than rape, abuse, loss of a child...etc...I don't see why more people are not willing to stand up and say that they would NEVER inflict that kind of harm on another human being...let alone their family.

I would no sooner have an affair than I would molest a woman...I truly worry that people can think that because our "common biology" we are prone to affairs. I was created by God...not evolved from some lower being that can't control his carnal desires. My dogs, given the opportunity will jump on anything without worry or thought as to the consequences. People can think and reason and do not need at any time to be led around by their lust.

JMHO

In addition to slightly mistrusting your spouse and avoiding the temptaion of an affair, I think it is also equally, and maybe more important, to keep your spouse's 'love bank' full as the best deterence. My W is attractive, an 8-9, while I'm a 5-6. she's always had guys hitting on her, but in the past she laughed them off. Even I once had a co-worker hitting on me (though at the time I was too naive to even realize it). In either case, to no avail, because we were both happy with each other. Then, over the past two years or so, W and I drifted apart, and our love bank balances began to sink. It was then that a friendship between W and a man at our church blossomed, first into an EA, and then a PA. Likewise, at the depths of my despair after trying to cope with W's affair, another woman showed me a little attention and admiration (totally unrelated to my relationship with my W). I then felt an attraction towards this woman that I would never have felt before.

So, it's just as important to keep the love bank full as it is to avoid temptation.

rprynne...

Excellent posts!!!

I pray that your FWW realizes what an incredibly lucky woman she is to be married to you...(Many of your posts remind me of Mr. W-that's a HUGE compliment from me! )

A smart lineman!!! Who woulda thunk it?

Mrs. W

medc,


Oh, I worry about those people WAY more too!! In the article they talked about high risk people....like narcissists....so yeah. And for the record, you aren't the kind of person I'm talking about really (worrying about).....not because you're "different", but because you've made fighting infidelity such a big purpose in your life. That's the kind of thing that keeps you "in touch" and on top of boundaries....it's one of the "preventative" measures that really lowers vulnerability. There may be some people who can read here all day and then go out and cheat on their spouses....but honestly....that's amazingly sad and scary.



Okay, but we have two "Harleyisms" here. One: We are all wired for infidelity. Two: Infidelity is worse than..... So how do we know which one to believe? Believe one, but not the other? I've been raped, abused and lost a child....and infidelity was not worse than any of them TO ME. However, I recognize it IS to some people and I ask the same thing everyday: WHY DON'T PEOPLE STAND UP???? What's wrong with a society that continues to glorify it?

When I say "worry" (in the above context), what I really mean is "concern", because you're right....in terms of active anxiety....I have alot stronger feelings about the act of infidelity than I ever would about people who believe they are incapable of it.


We <as human beings> are prone to affairs....YOU as an individual have taken steps to transcend whatever "wiring" biology saddled you with. So have I....and it's something I hope that most people reading here will try to do.


God created Adam and Eve and they were still tempted. He uses their example to teach us about temptation. We are tempted on many levels....externally (by people who tempt us) and internally (by our desire to have needs met). It takes boundaries and faith to meet those temptations....not denial.


Yes....and it is our reason that prompts us to discuss these things, right? You're right, dogs don't feel shame (neither do some narcissists), but most people do. And most people who have affairs, didn't believe they ever would....until it happened. What if they HAD believed, and had enforced good marital boundaries BEFORE they cheated? Might it have helped? You're already doing that...and THAT is what makes you "different"....not your biological wiring. You've spent time really looking at (and experiencing) the tragedy that infidelity creates. You are ARMED with that knowledge. It is the "difference" we are trying to share with others here. Denying the existence of vulnerability....only arms people with denial. How can you prevent something you can't even imagine?

For instance, I can couldn't imagine being a mother who would physically abuse her children. But there have been moments where I recognized the frustration inherent in motherhood and felt intensely worried or angry with my children. So when I've felt my control over my emotions slipping....I've taken some time out to compose myself because I don't WANT to be that mother. I don't WANT to cheat on my husband.....so I do the same thing....recognize the danger and take precautions. I think when Dr. Harley says we're all wired....that's what he's trying to do....remind us. He's not saying....medc or starfish...YOU are JUST as capable of an affair as someone else....he's saying if we don't actively do something DIFFERENT....than we can fall prey to our own biology instead of our logic.

Thank you for your post, Galoot...I caught myself not really reading it...and read this quote...

And went, "Wha? That's REALLY tall! Gotta be a typo."



Better 'n coffee.

LA

Rprynne,


Excellent observation! I take back what I said. This is a much better way of describing the connotation that comes in these statements.

Want2Stay

TTH,


I don't believe recovery is contingent on anything other than both spouses having love remaining for one another and being willing to do whatever it takes to work as a team to overcome the A.

You are struggling with the "WHY" of it all. In a lot of ways, I'm still there myself. Try and take a step back for a second. Now imagine all the possible responses that IMLH could give you as a reason WHY she choose to do what she did. What you will find is that there isn't a single answer she can give you that will make you say " I get it now. I understand why you made the choice you did." There isn't an answer she can give you that will make the pain you are in go away or make you OK with what you have lost.

For me, if I hold up LaLa and my M, relationship, the EN's I was good at meeting, the potential risks and consequences versus the choice that was made there is no question of the decision that should have been made. Problem is that it wasn't the decision that was made. I could live to be 150 and I will never understand WHY. The thing is though you don't have to in order to recover your M. No amount of rehashing and second guessing the reasons is going to change what happened. The only possible solution is to accept it and move on with the here and now together. It is not easy to do, believe me. I'm speaking from experience here because I know how damaging getting caught up in this question can be. Remember that acceptance isn't the same thing as being OK with it.

Something else I have noticed is the anger that comes out in your posts. Let me suggest that you find another outlet for it. Take up exercising or something. When you post things like "I have no respect for her" it is incredibly draining on IMLH's lovebank. She is here TRY doing her best to help the two of you recover. In our situation, I didn't raise my voice at LaLa until 7 months after Dday. I have never called her hurtful names. My view of her hasn't changed. I think no less of her today than the day that I married her. I have told LaLa since the very beginning of recovery that there isn't a thing she could do differently to help me more. She is still the person I respect most in my life. Did she make a horrendous choice? You bet. One that has caused me untold amounts of pain. There is no single action she can do that will erase the pain I have experienced, but each small thing she has done becomes a weapon I can use against the pain. I think the same holds true for you TRY, there are many on these forums that would love to have a spouse willing to put in the effort that IMLH is showing. Remember, recovery is a marathon not a sprint. Try to take each day one at a time. Hang in there and keep up the good fight......

Want2Stay

I want to thank everyone who is participating in this dialogue. I'm sorry I have not posted back to you that much. I'm really trying to focus on work while I'm at work or we're going to end up in more hot water.

I have been reading along, and I hope this thread continues. We're both finding it incredibly helpful.

I will take some time this weekend to catch up with y'all.

Thanks all for helping and sharing...

TTH,

Q: Why did she do it?

A: She was acting selfishly and only in order to fulfill her desires for her own life at the time with no regard to your feelings or how you would see it or her in the future. She had basically discounted you all together.

Q: Why did she do THAT?

A: Her love bank was dangerously low and without really understanding that it was being filled by someone else because he was meeting some basic EN she had never really identified and so did not know to ask you to meet it. All she knew was that she was unhappy and OM changed that for her.

Q: How can it be prevented from happening again?

A: By both of you agreeing to meet each other's ENs going forward, being totally honest with each other and following POJA in all things.

Q: What will that get you?

A: The marriage you can both be happy with and in which you can both feel safe to be honest with each other as well as someday regaining confidence that the marriage is secure enough that what happened before will not happen again and that before that would happen, an end to the union would be agreed upon rather than the lies and deception beginning again.

Aww, shucks. Now I'm blushing.

Very nice things for you to say and I appreciate it.

I don't think people are saying they are not willing to do that.

I think people are recognizing the fact that many people in A's don't think they are harming anyone. Most WS's have concluded that the BS's won't find out or they won't care.

I don't buy that at all. I think they know they are harming people...that is why they are hiding their crime.




In fact, I do not feel like many people here are saying they would/could NEVER commit an act that would cause that level of devastation. Most are saying while they do not feel they ever would, that having an affair is something they need to guard against. I am saying...IF the pain of an affair is as great as those horrible things I mentioned...why would we even need to protect ourselves from committing such a horrible act??? As a BS I can easily say that I would NEVER...could NEVER have an affair. Never, ever, never. Why??? Because it would injure my loved ones worse than rape or death.

I think Dr. Harley describes it best when he talks about the "Giver" and the "Taker".

The Taker has taken control, and says; "What about me and what I want?" The Giver, who would be the one that would recognize that the A will hurt, is pushed to the back and not allowed in the discussion.

Deep down, yes they know it will hurt the BS, but they have no clue how much; and don't understand it is so much more devastating than the hurt they may be feeling because of the environment their M is at the moment.

Most the of time they only know how much they hurt and they want to take care of themselves. That's what the taker does.

I know I never knew it would hurt so much, until my W had her A.

JMHO.

S&C

Okay...but I am not talking about "they." I am talking about the average BS on this site...a person educated and experienced in affairs and the vast damage they cause..not being willing to flat out say they would NEVER have an affair.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this.


You're right and I apologize for that. I wasn't in a particularly good mood that day, but that's no excuse.


Well, for the record, I didn't say that, but rather that I had choices too, but choose differently. But it's a moot point, actually. Given the right set of circumstances, I would hope and pray that I never go down that road.

In terms of the " why " question, I feel it is critical in order to make the corrections to avoid yet another A in the future. "If we don't learn from history, we are bound to repeat it."

How willing is a BS to once again be vunerable to their WS, without having some assurance that they "get it" to the point that BS feels safe enough to do that?

What I sence from TTH's Q is "why" should I allow my heart to R and become vunerable, when SH indicates that his WW just fell a** backwards into an A. If it were so simplistic, "why" couldn't happen again a year or two down the raod? This approach does nothing to affair proof the M, IMHO.

So yes, great introspection on the part of the WS and the BS has to occur before they can come to conclusions about exactly how this will never happen again. Keep in mind, neither thought it would ever happen in the first place. So what will be different about the second or third place without the hard work of "why" right now?

I think from reading that ILMH is on the right track, but TTH needs to be more involved in listeneing to his W.The original thoughts and Q's that he proposed to start this thread, need to be directed point black at her. Her answers will be vital to their R, and how long it will all take.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Thanks



It's probably something none of us would wish for. That said, I believe I'm capable of making as terrible a decision as the next person.


Maybe, I fully understand the need to feel 'safe'.. Granted, my circumstances may differ from many but safe is safe.


I completely understand how hard it is to fell 'safe'.



Jerry [/quote]

Affairs usually arise out of infatuation, not lust. Infatuation is an addiction, specifically to a person, brought about by a sudden flood of brain chemicals (PEA and dopamine), which cause an intense craving for that person. Resisting an infatuation is no easier than to stop smoking, or staying on a diet, for which many of God's other creations have continually failed.

I would think this is the other way around, that they usually start out of lust and turn into infatuation.

MEDC, I agree.

And it's all just so sad.

How does one come to grips with your above statement....and recover their marriage?

How does one accept that they were discarded so quickly and so easily and ever again believe they are cherished by that same person?

I want to be cherished....I want to have been cherished so much that this couldn't have ever happened.

I had natural boundaries in place JUST BECAUSE I loved my husband. No one needed to teach me how to protect my marriage. I just did, because I loved my husband.

But after having been convinced by FWS that he hadn't loved me for years, after FINALLY accepting his wayward babble (I guess) as truth, after having my world turned upside down so much that I don't even know WHAT IS up, I now have to flip it back????

How will I ever know which way is up???

I need to post here so badly and my d@mn stalker has found me out again.

I'm hoping I can hide in this thread...but I doubt it.

It's a really bad day...It's been a really bad few days...a wedding and multiple triggers, and my son's graduation this coming weekend and dealing with in-laws that I wish would drop off the earth.

I'm so weary...

FWS continues on our path to recovery. I'm just so sick of infidelity. I want to UNknow what I know. My brain needs a break and just can't ever have one. OW is always there....being abandoned by the one I trusted with ALL of my heart and soul...it just never goes away.

D-day #2 anniversary is this weekend...

If you remember, MEDC, it was a really bad d-day.

I want to erase these memories...but I can't.

I cannot yet come to grips with the man I've known and loved all these years, being able to do to me what he did to me last year.

And now, he's the model FWS.

My head is still spinning, and I am often back at the place of just utter shock.

WHY WILL YOU NOT LEAVE ME ALONE!!!!!

My posts above were my posts for help.

So, where's your story?

Like we could ever believe you'd actually be truthful here!

You've lied, been deceitful, disrespected me by ignoring my requests to be left alone, faked your identity, stolen another's identity, ignored your bans by returning here over and over and over and over (how many times???)

From the character you have displayed here, you are as bad as any WS.

Your presence here makes it very difficult for me to help others, let alone get the help I need.

I came to this place to save, not just my marriage, but my life. WHY DID YOU?!

So, speak up. Let us finally know who the great BA is?

And why have you blessed ME with your never ending admiration?

edit

Actually, I don't even know "who all" you've been, and I'm getting pretty tired of having to guess.





Yes, I remember. I feared that as well. You have caused me much grief.




Yes, I know. I remember that you also repeatedly tried to get me to give you my email "so that you could share with me personally".

I asked you repeatedly to share here. Yet, you always refused.





There are lots of advocates and great moms (and dads) on this board.

So, I ask again.

Why ME?





I pretty much guessed that.

So what's the rest of the story?


You want respect from people here, it's time to be gut level open and honest.

Tell us your WHOLE story.

WHERE'S your story?


And why did you delete your post?

You see, you want respect, yet your actions are not respectable.

Post your story.

You know how to; you've read enough stories here to know they need to be detailed, they shouldn't have anything left out.

I'm still waiting...

edit

I will not support you in being deceitful on this board.

I will also not ever email you, as I realize that you are very computer savvy and could possibly trace my location.

Please stop this ridiculous behavior.

Why in the world would you be unwilling to post your story here if it would bring to you such respect?

edit

Oh Christmas,

Not BA again.

Ba, the only thing anyone around here can do is pray for you.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I don't agree with this, but I'll choose to step out of the debate.

Thank you for the mod alerts about this poster. Please trust the mods to deal with this.

Let's get this thread back on track for Try to Hard please.

ForeverHers, what a great response. Thanks.

I'm new to this sad club and looking for answers, help, advice, fellowship. I can see I'll get it.

I also have struggled with the over-PC language of infidelity. When my two-year-old decides to bash his brother over the head, I can honestly say that his behavior is bad, but the child is not. He's too little to feel empathy and therefore too little to know that he's done something other than break the rules (which he certainly IS able to understand). In other words, he knows he's in for a time out, but not aware of the pain he's caused.

I'm furious with therapists who repeatedly tell my husband he's not a bad person. No, he's not all bad all the time, but he has a 'leaky character', to borrow a phrase from Dr. Guzenburg. He has a hole in his soul, a serious character malformation which I believe does in fact make him a bad person on some level. He is certainly intelligent enough to have understood the vows he made to me, and I assume intelligent enough to comprehend that without a divorce paper that we are still, in fact, married. I KNOW he understands all this because he went to a good deal of trouble to cover up his adultery.

And I too believe that there are some people out there who just wouldn't, couldn't go down that path. I'm one, too. I choose every day to invite God into my life as the ultimate oversight partner. I choose every day to adhere to a moral code that assures I can go to sleep at night comfortable with myself. I make mistakes, for sure, but not catastrophic ones like infidelity.

Of course I wouldn't be here on this website if I didn't believe that a broken, mangled, dirty soul could be healed. My WH is making great strides to fix himself and the past assumptions about women and values that let him commit this huge crime against me, our kids, our marriage, and his own soul. I hope he manages to do it for all our sakes.

So, my two cents is that you don't need to believe that your WS was 'under the influence', you just need to believe that whatever it WAS, she's able to overcome it and permanently close that door.

TTH, I am more of a reader on this board than a writer but I have followed your thread for several months. I thought that we were kind of on the same time line until I discoverd a few days ago that my wifes affair had never stopped. Ive watched all your struggles and empathized but enough is enough.

you have a fully repentant FORMER wayward wife. It is time to change your signature and drop the "found out she was f__ing him afterall" and, for that matter much of the attitude that goes with it.

You have a fully repentant wayward wife. Either you can handle the fact that she had an affair or you cant. Enough with the navel gazing BS. It is time to decide wthether you can treat your wife with respect or you cannot.

with Sincere wishes that you can get over this.

BoW.

betterorworse - I think that's pretty harsh - he only really discovered this a few short weeks ago. While ILMH is making tremendous strides towards atonement, TTH might require more than a month to be reassured.

Give him a tiny break.

Maybe so, but the sooner he coomes to terms what has happenend the sooner they can both move on. And i really wnt him to look at his signature. That is his identity on this board and i want hime to really think if it accuratly conveys what he thinks of his wife now.

Thanks, SS for starting another thread.

I'm sorry I haven't posted much lately. I've really been wanting to catch up with you all. I have been reading along sporadically, but I've just now found some time to write.

When I posted my question over ten days ago, I was in a very different place. I am truly amazed at the life this thread has taken on. What was essentially a passing thought for me has been brought to life by you all. The comments from one and all have been amazing. It really has become almost a microstudy of just one of many millions of thoughts that sadly come into play in the case of adultery.

The compassion, understanding and good old fashioned debate has really brought significant help as we bump around in the dark on our own trip back to righteousness.

All in all we truly are having more good days than bad. I still have an enormous seemingly lead burden in my chest that is at the same time a hollowness. My grief is tangible and persistent.

Having grieved more times than I care to remember over my life, I recognize again the various stages that will ebb and flow, combine and flatten. It seems like an insurmountable endeavor at times. I don't know how I'm ever going to get over it all, but I am hopeful that one day I will be able to look back and know.

I struggle with containing my emotions that have been rubbed so raw for so long. I mostly suppress or turn to the good old "laugh it off" to cope. I try to stay busy, but often I can't seem to concentrate on even simple tasks like speaking coherently (or typing...), but I forge on.

Often I think of my young son who I hope can one day look to me as an example of what a good and decent man with compassion can be. I hope to honor the memory of my father in raising him in this way. I use him as a source of strength in my times of weakness. He will never know how much he has helped me. Hopefully I never have to tell him.

I know I have been disrespectful and angry with my wife at times. There are times where just a simple look or comment will trigger unexpected emotional responses which if I were 100% might be tough to manage, and I stumble. But I absolutely still honor the vows I have with her which preceded our nuptials. At all times I try to Love, Honor and Protect her. I still feel the constant sting of feeling that I failed to protect her... Alas.

To the subject at hand, I have a fuller understanding of the dynamics and intricacies of the "Why", though it would be foolish to believe that a full understanding of ANY OF IT would be possible within one month of this revelation.

I am punchdrunk. Someone on this thread referred to it as a "walking death". That sadly hit home with me.

We are doing the program. I believe that my wife is remorseful. We have a shot.

In the grand scheme of things, I guess thats all you can hope for.

Hopefully,
TTH

BoW

I am a BW with a fully repentant former wayward husband and it doesn't make it all better. I still have major challenges to overcome in this process. My FWH and I are still working on the issues that created the breakdown in our relationship.

I don't think that TTH isn't ungrateful that his WW is repentant or that she is working hard to recover. TTH is working through HIS OWN STUFF...how to come to terms with this new view on his life.

I am so sorry to hear that your spouse is still involved in the A.

HTM

Thank you both, gentlemen.

BOW, I see your point.

As with all of what I read here, I will consider more.

TTH, thankyou, and I cant say I would have made all the same comments had you had made your last post earlier, but I still want you to think about you signature.

****EDIT****

TTH - I'm with betterorworse on this one. I know it's still very early and believe me when I say I KNOW the feeling you are expressing in this sig line statement, but please consider changing to something like "Latest D-day (found out it WAS a PA after all).

DWELLING on the "facts" will impede and/or derail recovery efforts as the resentment and anger continue to build. Eventually all it will take is "one emotional outburst" and recovery will be either put back to "square one" or a decision will be made that the marriage cannot be salvaged and one or both of you will stop trying to get past all the hurt and actually do the HARD work of recovery for as long as it takes (with the average recovery timeframe being 2 years, it IS long).

God bless.

TTH,

I wasn't sure if you notified the mods when you posted the alert.

I went ahead and notified them just in case.

TryTooHard,

I was able to move those posts back to your thread. If you choose, you may delete/edit the posts of yours that were made in an attempt to rectify this issue on your own. In the future, should you need one of us, it is best to either hit the "notify mod" button or directly email one of us.

Please accept our sincere apologies for the confusion.

Thanks so much.

Still a little unsure of the protocol...

TryTooHard,

Please never hesitate to contact us, that's what we are here for!

The "notify mod" button can be found at the end of each post, and our email addresses can be obtained by clicking on any of our names and viewing our profiles.

We appreciate your understanding.

Thanks SMB...

TTH, The new sig suits you much better!

Thanks for helping...

This is hard for me too.

When I first learned of POS OM making a play for my wife I warned her about his intentions. She fought me on this. She fought for her "right" to continue her "friendship" with him. In the whole ten years I have known her she has NEVER fought so long and hard for ANYTHING. Probably in her whole life.

I should have kicked his A** the very moment that I knew. I did not because at the time I still trusted and believed my wife. I believed her that they were just friends and I believed her when she said she would end it her way. I did not go after him because she asked me not to and I felt I was honoring her request.

Well, she did end it. Months later after the unspeakable was done and done and done and done again...



Yes, how?... I hope that one day my FWW can show me.

This is without a doubt how i feel about my H's affair. Thank you SS for stating it so beautifully.

Hello TryTooHard,

I think anyone is capable of doing stupid things.
Maybe it's driving a car when one really had too much to drink.
Or smoking too many cigarettes even though one knows that might cause life threatening diseases.
Or cheating on the one(s) you love - your H or W, and your children, because they also get their share of pain.

For me, the most important thing is how someone reacts AFTER he realises what he has done. When he sobers up, so to speak. If a person is willing to take responsibility for what he or she did, and do whatever they can to heal and help and whatever.... it matters very little to me if at some point they started having an affair as naive fools or selfish [censored]

If the WS is NOT taking full responsibility for his or her actions, and is NOT willing to do everything he or she can to heal, help, understand... it also matters very little how he or she started out at the beginning of the affair. How the person is NOW is what I have to live with. I need to now that my partner will do whatever is necessary to not make the same mistakes again.

I hope this can help you a little bit.
You are on a rocky road, as most posters here will confirm, but if you are both willing to work on this I'm sure you will regain respect and love for your wife.

My best regards,
Brownhair

BH, et al.

This thread went in to a bit of a tailspin, and I know there's about a page and a half of unrelated nonsense still there. I've asked the Mods (makes me think of The Mod Squad) to help clean it up a bit so it reads well again. So thanks, all for hanging in there.

To your point, BH:



I often say myself, "It's not how far you fall, but how high you bounce back up."

I am having an incredibly difficult time reconciling my intellectual belief in this, with my emotional grief and dissapointment.

Making "knowing what I want", match "feeling what I want" is proving to be elusive at best.

TTH,


I'm right there with you TRY. The logical side of me completely understands how it happens, it's trying to get the sentimental die hard romantic side of me to accept it that's difficult. I can tell you it does get easier, but the only real thing that helps is TIME.

Want2Stay

I'm not a behavioralist but I do think that sometimes the idea of ACTING like things are great will help you to FEEL like things are better too. Like spending time together having fun. In the beginning, I felt like I just couldn't have fun with H. But the more I did it, the more natural it felt and the easier it was to continue those feelings outside of the activity.

I still don't feel what I rationalize, but I'm practicing. And I am trying to accept that whatever I feel is just what I feel. I own it. I (try to) share it. And I move on.

Haven't talked with you in awhile TTH...how are things going? Which thread is yours?

HTM

Hi there, HTM.

Thanks for checking in.

We're hanging in there. Still trying...

I haven't really been posting too much lately. Trying to stay focused on work while at work.

Not sure what you mean by "Which thread is yours."

How 'bout you?

I guess this IS your thread. I just got lost in the digression.

My thread is still Recovery Between Work, School, and Soccer.

We're doing alright as well. A few bumps in the road, but that is to be expected. I'll check in on ILMH soon too.

HTM

I'm fading fast...

What's the problem Try???

I think you would be wise to stay off the Rain thread. I have an inkling that is the problem.

So, give us the 411.....

wanna bring ya back

hang in there....this stuff does suck....

not2fun

I realize I was harsh to her.

I apologized to her for that.

I am not posting to her any longer. I recommended that she confide in FWW's and attempted to exit gracefully...

I'M the problem?...

Enough about her.

I'm feeling like I'm drowning in the cesspool my life has become. I don't know how I keep going.

It's like the Bataan Death March...

TTH whats the issue right now? Vent away

Just can't seem to shake the resentment, anguish and hopelessness.

What was once the greatest love story imaginable was thrown away for nothing.

As a result of the year of abuse and torment we are in financial ruin.

We are literally facing foreclosure.

My business is floundering.

The implications of all of this for my innocent 3yo son are crushing.

Even the slightest bump in the road knocks open floodgates of emotion.

I feel like I have no peace or sanctuary from my disbelief and pain.

I am physically exhausted and emotionally spent.

I barely have the mental acuity to function let alone perform my job.

I am really the only hope for salvaging our financial situation, and I'm not sure if I'm even capable.

I feel like I am futily searching for something nonexistent.

Other than that everything's F-ing rosy...

Honey, I wasn't saying that what you said to Rain was the problem, but reading about her sitch and how she is at the moment, drags you right back to Dday and all the feelings that go with it.....


Ok...H is right,,,what is your problem right now????

Why is your life a cesspool TODAY?????

not2fun

TTH belive me when i say that i know how you feel, i have BTDT too and had vets tell me that time will make it better (along with the "F"WS continuing to show remorse, etc.

You know by my other posts in this thread that i do not believe that any A are as simple as they seem and that certain aspects of the "fog" and such i believe are BS (not betrayed spouse here).

But i can tell you that even though i feel i have a LONG way to go, i do feel better each and every day.

Well its been a year since your first D-Day but less than two months since the last. So resentment, anguish, hopelessness are prolly to be expected. I am in the midst of those feelings myself. I think my wife had it incredibly good and it seems ridiculous that she did what she did with some internet-gaming [censored] loser.

What kind of response are you getting from WW at this point? Is she distant? preoccupied with OM? fighting to make things work with you?

Are you doing anything for fun? I mean, the A is always lurking I know, but are you getting out with other people besides WW, doing stuff just to have a distraction for a bit?

What are you searching for? I am wondering because I dont even know what to begin to want out of all this. Do you have a fixed idea of how you hope things will be?

N2F - I'm smellin' what yer cookin' now... Makes sense.

Unfortunately the "drag" back to D-dayS 'aint that far. I feel like it's always d-day. To take the metaphor one step further: It's like I'm storming the beach and being peppered with gunfire continuously. I get shot down. I wake and attempt it all over. Kinda like groundhog day and the little F-er keeps seeing his shadow...

... Ok, that's two different WW11 references and groundhog day all in two posts?!? WTF?...

I'll take Mixed metaphors for $500, Alex...

I need help!

It happens to me all the time....It is sometimes a game of mind over matter....when this doesn't work, then pray. Then go for a long hard walk or jog.

[/quote]What was once the greatest love story imaginable was thrown away for nothing. [/quote]

No it wasn't. You must learn to let this go. If it was the greatest love story, you would not be here. So TODAY, make a new love story....FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS...

[/quote]As a result of the year of abuse and torment we are in financial ruin. [/quote]

I know, this part really really sucks. But you are not alone. So are we. It angers me at times too. Especially when I think of all the money spent on the BOW. But we cannot change the past Try. All we can do is work on today.



[/quote]My business is floundering. [/quote]

If it makes you feel better, so is my WS's business. And he is the WS and the OM.

What is it you do??? Is there a way we on here can help you???

[/quote]The implications of all of this for my innocent 3yo son are crushing.[/quote]

This sometimes is the worst of all of this. I feel for you. But take solace in the fact that he is so young, and cannot process the things ILMH has done. My DD 14 knows, and this will cause her untold problems for who-knows how long. But we cannot borrow worries. All we can do is put them in God's hands and know that He will take care of them.....

[/quote]Even the slightest bump in the road knocks open floodgates of emotion.[/quote]

This part sucks too. We were not prepared for this. And you know what, there was no way we COULD have been prepared for it. Consider the bumps the trials we need to put what we have learned here into practice.

[/quote]I feel like I have no peace or sanctuary from my disbelief and pain.

I am physically exhausted and emotionally spent.

I feel like I am futily searching for something nonexistent.[/quote]

Try, honestly, I feel for you. I really do. I can relate to this. And sometimes all we can do is let the feelings come, exsponge them, shed another layer, and then pick ourselves up and move on.

As for as the searching the nonexistent, look at the VETS on here and know that this is not true. A happy and blessed M can be on horizone.......all we have to do is look around us and see that.....

I'm praying for you Try.....hang in there. You know this is just a passing feeling.

not2fun

ok....Try.....


This is my suggestion for tonight.....

You and ILMH need some fun. Money is tight right???? So what do you do for fun???? Are there some places around you that you two can do for free??? Zoo/Museum????

YOu need to get a babysitter and do something fun and light with ILMH.....and have absolutely NO AFFAIR/MARRIAGE/RELATIONSHIP/FINANCIAL talk.

Plain and simple. Just some good ol' fashion fun. Time to create a memory for the two of you.....


not2fun

ps...obviously I cannot do the multiple quote thingy....Man I am so computer illiterate....

TTH,

I don't know if you have thought about this but ADs may help you in your situation. They are not a cop-out. They can just abate the overwhelming sensation enough that you can cope better with the day to day.

My H and I have been through the wringer financially and I worried for so long that our boys would suffer. But children only know if their parents love and care for them. They may complain about not getting the new toy, but they live happily without (sometimes better, I think). Your son will be fine as long as you and your W surround him with love. He is resilient.

Have you are ILMH been spending your good time together? I find I feel much better when H and I are able to meet that 15 hour goal. When it slacks, I slip quickly back in to the abyss.

Keep going. You'll make it.

Hey TTH. I'm with you. Trust me it gets better. Just like your WW was no different than other WW's neither are you different than other BS's.

Within 2 months of d-day I was fired. I had never been fired. I was always an exceptional worker sought out by my competition.

I lost 15% of my body weight (I was thin to start with). I got intestinal disease (Never been sick a day before in my life).

Didn't sleep or eat. Couldn't function. Just a freaking zombie.

That was two years ago. Now I'm better. Not perfect but definitely better.

All I can say is that a truly caring WW and time will heal most of your worries. I won't bullsh*t you, some things are still broken but it does get better.

Hang in there brother.

OMG....GREAT suggestion HTM. I can't believe I didn['t think of it first.....


Try,

HTM is right. I am on the AD's and really they do help. I know the sigma behind them and how hard to admit that you might need them, but it really is much better than wallowing in this muck.....what are you thoughts on this???

not2fun

Yep!

The death was not just of trust or of the way things once were. The death was the death of what you once beileved was true and the way you thought they were.

The life you thought you had was not real. There was no "happily ever after" that was ensured by the wedding. The Hollywood "ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after" was merely a movie script and wasn't your marriage after all.

The question is now, "What will you do to write a real ending to your story?"

You trusted her blindly with no reason to do so. The trust wasn't earned and so giving it was it's downfall. What can she do to earn back your earned trust?

You believed she would never allow herself to be swayed and led astray because you bought into the Hollywood script, that marriage is automatic and love is a magical thing that is stronger than life. Now that you know love is something that needs to be built, rebuilt and maintained, how will you rebuild that love into one stronger than before?

Your wife too assumed too much about love and marriage and commitment. She thought it was like in the movies, that it was something that just happened and required no protection. It resulted in her being proven to be human and less than perfect. How can she protect her own feelings from being led down that road once more?

You're in a finacial hole. How can you climb out of that hole? You can't dig yourself out of it, because digging only makes the hole deeper. What can you do to climb out and fill it in?

You're in an emotional hole. You can't dig out of that one either. It too must be climbed out of and filled with something or you'll just fall back into it as soon as you think you are free.

TTH, I also see something here to consider. When you tried to debate/educate/correct the thinking of a WW, you got sucked back into your own world of pain. It reminded you of all the things that came before. The lies, the deception, the cheating, the stealing...

It all flooded back and made you wonder just what the he77 you were doing and why you would bother.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this..."

and the doctor says...

"Then don't do this..."


But just as we told you when you arrived that a WW is lost in the fog, you have to realize that once the fog is gone, or at least begins to clear, the FWS is no longer even that person who did those things. That was the WS, and just as we try to tell newbies that their spouse has been abducted by aliens and replaced with an evil clone, that clone is now dead and your real wife is returning to you.

Make the most of THAT fact and the fact that she wants so badly to undo what she has done. But it isn't in her power to go back and not do what has already happened. All she can do now is to show you that she has returned to you for real. And all you can do is what is in your power to change what is to happen next. You can't change what was, or even what is. You only have power over what will be. Use THAT power...

How can your wife make you feel loved and in love with her?

The same way you can make her feel loved and in love with you...

By filling each other's love banks to overflowing...

And how do you do that? By meeting each other's ENs repeatedly and avoiding love busters long enough for it to build back up.

And how do you accomplish this? By spending time together, meeting each other's ENs and doing all you can to keep away those things that destroy your love for each other.

Already used this analogy today a time or two.

You can put a roof on the house, replace windows and doors, fix up the kitchen and redo the bathrooms, but if the foundation fails, the house will fall and no amount of paint or lumber or plumbing fixtures will save it. The foundation of your marriage is your love for each other. You have to rebuild THAT FIRST!

If you keep ttrying to fix everything that is wrong with the marriage and do nothing to rebuild the love, trust will not matter, because the marriage will end. Either you will lose hope completely because there will alsways be something that needs fixing, or she will lose hope and quit trying, leaving her vulnerable once again.

You can paint over the cracks and they will return. You can rebild the walls and they will still fall if you don't shore up the house before you begin.

At the current rate, your house will fall down in 6 months!

FIX THE FOUNDATION FIRST! It's what makes Marriage Builders better than all the rest! It is what Dr Harley himself says makes his way different and more successful than others.

Recovery takes at least a couple of years. That is two years of doing the MB stuff, not two years of searching for some magic bullet that will make you feel OK and her suddenly saying something that will make you feel OK. The longer you struggle with looking, the longer until you feel OK.

BUILD YOU LOVE BANKS AND FILL THEM UP!

Focus on each other and doing for each other and fix what you can in your spare time.

You keep asking why...

I keep asking, what will you do now?

If you look deep inside, you can identify what your part in the marriage being vulnerable to an affair was. FIX THAT! That was supposed to happen as part of Plan A.

If you keep looking for what you could have done differently, you will miss the chance to do what you need to do now.

FIX THE FOUNDATION FIRST!

I'm all out of dimensional lumber, 2 by, 4 by and 6 by are all used up...

Don't make me come and choke you in person...

Or send Not. She has a mean right cross, from what I gather...

Mark

Hey, I'm not called Sugar Ray Not for nothing......


not2fun

ps...

TTH....I posted to ILMH. Dude, the woman loves you. She wants to be with YOU. Grab onto this and BELIEVE IT.....it is your life-preserver you are looking for.....

PS.....

NO AFFAIR TALK TODAY.......NONE ....ZIP....NADA.......

This is my MANDATORY assignment for you today....

now I have to bow out because my basement needs to get done and that would meet a very important EN of my WS.....

not2fun

hey Try,

Just checking in with you today....How is it today??? Any "fading" going on???????


Hang in there.....if it makes you feel any better, ILMH is in a much better place than my WS, or least framemind. Heck, she's out of the fog.....


not2fun

My gosh, Try...Not2 and Mark are giving you such excellent advice! Mark--truly amazing (as usual!!)

Please give yourself a break, Try! Take a step back and re-focus. You need time to heal. Give yourself that time.

You are analyzing everything right now--every emotion, every consequence, every THING every second of every day. This may be your way of fixing other problems in your life, but this time it is only making it worse.

Please stop talking about the A with ILMH every free moment you get together. This will destroy you AND your M. It is also tearing your wife down as she is trying with all of her power to prove to you how sorry she is and re-build your life together. I know about financial devastation...we are still struggling, but it is getting better. You DO HAVE CONTROL of some of this. But, the control lies in what you make of your life NOW, and NOT in re-hashing what has happened, why it happened, why you didn't react sooner, why you allowed her to lie and manipulate you, etc.

You ARE strong enough to overcome this. You CAN make it work. Things WILL get better in time. You are not just sticking around for your son, Try...you love your wife. It may not seem like love at times during the low points, but it IS...

And you will be OK!

I love you, we can make it through this....

OK TRY, I'm obviously fouling up in my choice of words. Funny, as that is something I am so particular with.

Again, I apologize if I came across condescending. It was NOT my intention. I may break out the 2x4's on waywards but not the betrayed!

My point is pretty simple. Something was likely lacking in your marriage before the adultery. You may not think so, but your wife does. Right or wrong. It does NOT excuse the adultery. Nothing excuses that.

All I'm asking you to see that your past marriage is NOT one you want to repeat. You could possibly repeat the same problems.

Concentrate on the NEW marriage. That's why you chose to forgive, no?

Try,

ok, Iam may not want to 2x4 the BS, but I will.... ....


I saw on that other thread that you think that a BS who is caught in their affair and continues anyways, is just as bad as one who has a second affair.....

Well, let me ask you this.....Do you not BUY into DR. H's theory on the Affair Addiction??? Because if you don't, you are going to be hung up where you are at forever. I know it sucks, I know that you want to say that that is an excuse, but unless you go and have an affair, then it is some things for you to understand. What you DO have to DO is BUY that theory. Plain and simple.

Also, I would be willing to bet the farm that ILMH did know what she was doing to you and it created MUCH inner turmoil for her. I know it had to. Listen, I WATCHED my WS go through he77 for what he was doing. I know he was conflicted in so many ways. Sucks yeah, because I think, "well why did you keep it up???".....because of the addiction and the "high" that being in contact with their OP did for them.

Try, you have to move FORWARD.....I am really concerned you and ILMH will not make it if you do not.


I will tell you what Mimi has said to me....

You have to ACCEPT that she LOVED someone else...

You have to ACCEPT that she had an affair.....

I know it is hard, heck I still struggle with it daily. I also struggle with whether or not I can ACCEPT this, but if we want a fully recovered M, it's what we have to do......


not2fun

iam,

I get what you are saying. I think for some BS, they were getting their EN's met well enough, they think their M was hunky dorry, when in reality it wasn't for WS. Maybe this is how it was for TTH and ILMH....maybe not...

Now for me, my M sucked for both of us....big time. So, I TOTALLY EMBRACE the "Out with the old marriage, in with the New Marriage" concept.....

not2fun

TTH,

How 'bout an update...

Mark

Hey mark,

so nice of you to check in.

To use a golf analogy (and why not!), we are advancing the ball.

We profess our love for one another constantly throughout the day. I'm still doing pretty well controlling my emotions with ILMH, not LB'ing, and being a really good Dad.

For her part, ILMH is remorseful, and is trying to re-learn how to love me naturally. Undoing a year or so of behavior that was contrary to that crops up occasionally in subtle ways, but she really does want to restore our love and recover our marriage.

We both wish we could just go away together for a vacation, but sadly that's not in the financial cards. We wish we could spend more time together, but my 14 hour days make that difficult as well. But we both soldier on.

I would love to share more, but I've got three big client cases I need to get done so I just don't have the time to get into it today, but I will certainly check in more often than I have been.

Thanks again so much for your concern. It really does mean so much to us both to know that there are folks who want to help and are cheering us on.

FWIW I feel pretty good today. We finally got the exposure letter to OMW done last night, and it's a big relief. Frankly I'm a little surprised at how much better just having that done has made me feel. It was a struggle to go through the detail, and it took WAY too long to get it done, but it is at last. We still need to decide how best to deliver that to her to ensure that she actualy gets it, but I plan to get it to her hopefully by tomorrow.

I've gotta scoot, but I'll definitely check back in soon.

Peace!

TTH

TTH,

Even if you can't take a vacation, try to get away for a weekend or something. I've found that it doesn't have to be anything special either. This past January my wife and I both took a Monday off of work and got on the highway Saturday afternoon and drove about 4 hours, stopped and found a motel for the night and the next morning went to a state park for a couple of hours.

Then we drove a couple of hours to visit her sister via back roads, some of them gravel surfaced, and had dinner with her and her step kids, attended church that night with them and found another motel.

Monday morning we took a round-about way home, stopping in an area where they have a lot of covered bridges and took some pictures, etc. We stopped for lunch at a diner in a small farm town where there were 35 people inside, 30 of them all sitting together as a group. Several of them came over to say "Hi."

A high school kid came in to get a sandwich and the whole place was congratulating him on a great game the previous Friday night.

Then we stopped at the Cabelas about an hour from home, bought some stuff for our granddaughter and had a late supper at home.

We probably spent close to 350 bucks for the whole weekend, but it came from loose change I throw into a jug every once in a while and so didn't really come out of our budget.

Another time we ate at our favorite Cajun restaurant, got on the road and drove till we were tired, got a motel room and visited a huge furniture store the next day. After a dinner of sausage, cheese, wine and strawberries (those cost an arm and a leg because it was out of season), we stayed a second night and the next day stopped at a bunch of antique malls on the way home along the old road that parallels the interstate. We stopped for lunch at a Chili's and spent about 250 bucks on that weekend.

What I'm getting at here is that you can just do some random type of leisure activities without having to see anything with big round ears or a bunch of flags flying over the gate.

Sometimes we will go to a motel closer to home just for one night. They have an indoor pool and there is seldom anyone else using it on a Sunday night in January when it's below zero outside. We get a bottle of wine and our own glasses, hang out by the pool and just get away from every day life, all for the cost of a motel room and half a tank of gas.

I've found that a simple weekend, or even just a day spent doing something relaxing and different can make as much difference as a real vacation...

And by doing shorter trips you can take more of them without having to drop a few grand on a week in the islands.

Mark

Hey W2S, long time...

A number of things you said really hit home for me.

Quote:Yet, when I am struggling, I end up feeling guilty for the feelings I have. I think it goes back to being the protector of our DWs. Even if it means protecting them from ourselves.


Sometimes I think I feel worse about how I feel about ILMH in these moments, than anything. This really rings true. I truly never had so much as a bad thought about her for our first 8 1/2 years together.

Quote:I suffer from OCD. I'm probably the worst personality type to be dealing with infidelity.

With ya...

Quote:Quit literally, the thoughts of the A start the moment I wake up in the morning until the moment I go to sleep at night. Sometimes, they even carry over into my dreams while I sleep. Every event, fight, fog-filled statement echo in my head like a broken record. It's like the movie "Groundhog Day" only mine revolves around LaLa's A. It's like reliving Dday over and over again.

YES! This is exactly how I feel. I hope that one day I will be able to compartmentalize a bit more, but it sure hurts like HE!!

Quote:It's different because what we are doing goes against everything we believed ourselves to be. We both found ourselves in horrible situations. Yet, when it happened we also found out just how much we LOVE our DW's in spite of the mistakes they made. For a long while, I approached recovery as being able to rewire my brain as to what is acceptable for my life. Recently though, I have come to realize that is never going to happen. I can't change who I am. I will never be OK with what LaLa choose to do.

...hence the perpetual torment...

I thank you all for allowing the latitude for this T/J. I just had to comment as this so completely touched on what I'm going through.

W2S, are we the same person?!?

Hey TTH!

I thought I would respond to you over on your thread rather than to continue TJing MyRev's thread. I'm gonna IMPLORE upon you how very important it is that you NOT follow the path that I have taken. There are many differences in the circumstances in our situations that led us here.

Let me explain. It was 16 months from the time I suspected LaLa's A from 7/06 until her joining recovery in 12/07. During that entire time I told no one what was going on. I had no support system at all. I dealt with everything on my own. You see, I'm a very different kind of person. A true introvert. Generally, I don't have a need for social interaction. I can be completely content staying at home with LaLa and the boys. At the time all this took place I had no friends at all and not even the social interaction of a job because I was self-employed. LaLa was the center of my world. She was my best friend, my wife, my lover, my confidant and my coworker. All the adult interaction I had was with her. I had no one else and that was the way I wanted it. It was truly the happiest I had ever been in my life. Everything seemed to be falling into place. All our dreams were coming true and then disaster struck. In that moment, I lost everything including my best friend. The one person I would normally turn to for support in times of crisis. Without any support, I internalized all the crap that went down and didn't recognized it for the wayward alien fog that I know it is today. That is what led to my obsession. That is why I have the struggles I have today. I have no one to blame but myself.

In your situation things played out very differently. You were extremely lucky in that you found MB so early. You heard the mantra that it was all fog, you learned that it was about the addiction and not an act perpetrated against you. You've had an excellent support system all along. You must USE this stuff to your advantage. You have a group of friends that have walked this path and have made it to the other side. Listen to what they are telling you.

I know it's not easy. It is likely the most difficult thing you will ever do in your life. You must do it though TTH. You have to face it now. The sooner you do that the more likely you will have a successful recovery. If you are obsessing about the A you need to take action to change that. Start a journal, go on AD's, vent to someone other than ILMH. What ever it is you need to do to purge this evil stuff from your system do it now. If you are going to obsess about something make it following the MB principles to the letter. I think if you do that everything else will fall into place.

Trust me TTH, I'm speaking from the voice of experience here. DO NOT BE LIKE ME! BobPure once told me something that was so wise and I later found an opportunity to use it against him. Basically, he said that "wallowing self-reinforces the hurt." You know what, he was absolutely right. I can tell you that because over the 5 million times my circumstances have played out in my head NOTHING has changed. I still HATE what happened. The thing is though TTH, it is up to you to quit chasing that rabbit down the hole. It will take you no where but self inflicted misery. It will only make it that much more difficult to climb out later. You have what so many people here can only dream of. A truly remorseful FWW. I hate to say it, but the rest of recovery is up to you. You have to be willing to judge your situation by things that are happening now and not things that happened in the past. You can do this TTH! Hang in there and keep the faith........

So, what are you going to do? Are you going to keep chasing the rabbit down the hole or are you going to use tools you have to make things better?

Want2Stay

TTH,

Can we get an update? How was your weekend? Hope things are getting better. Hang in there and keep the faith.........

Want2Stay

Hey W2S, thanks for checking in.

Still fighting the good fight. We had a good weekend with a bunch of friends over Saturday night.

I'm still not venting at ILMH. She's trying to do what she can. I'm trying to focus on the future, and trying to find some peace.

ILMH finally fessed up to OMW about the truth this weekend. When counseling with Steve H, we identified her doing this as one of the critical parts of "cleaning out the wound" which according to him needs to be done before the EN's CAN be met. So finally having this done 2 1/2 months later relieves some of the open, raw wound feeling. I'm actually surprised at how much that simple act of truth helped me.

Anyway, I do appreciate you stopping by. Neither of us has posted much lately. Our whole thread seemed to go haywire, and I wanted everyone to settle down a bit.

In general, for about 10 weeks from D-day, I'd say we're doing OK.

As for finding MB early, I wish I had found it prior to ILMH becoming physical with that [censored], but we all know which hand will fill up sooner...

Peace out,
TTH

Glad to hear things are going well for you. I think the idea of a small truth creating peace is exactly the right description. Every time your WW can take enough ownership of something to express it, it helps. I am still waiting for my H to tell his best friend...something that I feel like he really needs to do.

Keep up the good work. See...it is possible.

HTM