Marriage Builders
Posted By: sickwithworry Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 01:56 PM
As a newbie to this I have read a lot of the material and probably now know what I should have known all along, but was afraid to admit. I'll try to make this short, and any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated. I am going to split this into 2 posts if that’s ok and I apologize for the length.

My wife and I met in college and were married shortly after I joined the military; 2 kids, great house, my own business after the military. Then a few years ago business went down the tubes, I was under a lot of stress etc. I had to rejoin the military and was sent away from home. About a year ago I noticed when I would come home for weekends my wife had stopped wearing her wedding ring. She was aloof and started hanging around with a group of friends much younger and not including me. She seemed in a dream state and actually started wearing another ring on her wedding ring finger, one I had never seen. I asked her about it, she blew it off. I felt something wasn’t right, like a pit in my stomach. She had pretty much cut me off from sex. I found bladder infection medication and lingerie in her drawer that would make a victoria's secret model blush. When I asked her about them she said the medicine was ancient and she had had the lingerie for 2 years but never worn it but the expiration date indicated current and the following weekend the price tags had been cut from the panties and they had been worn. She claimed she had just tried them on. The next weekend she encouraged me not to come home since I was coming home the following weekend and nothing was going on. I then heard she went to about 5 parties and the kids said she got home at 2AM Sunday morning. I looked at the cell phone record and she had called the house a little before 2 and then spent 20 minutes on the phone with someone. I asked her about it and she got very defensive and said she was next door. I said, "So you called from 20 feet away to wake up the kids to see if they're in bed? And who were you talking to?" Cornered, she told me “You have no right to ask me that!

I saw in her favorites list a login to Google mail and asked her if she had one. Nope. I went down to our office and she was acting very strange, wouldn't leave me alone with her computer, she finally angrily left and I saw that only a couple of days before no less that 8 emails were sent and received from her password protected computer. Confronted her, she flew in to a rage and said , "we are not doing this anymore," then made up a story about how one of her friends must have used her computer when they stopped by for lunch that day. Friends denied even going there and were angry at being used. She also told me that, yes, men were chasing after her and in fact "she was having to WARD them off!" (I am not surprised, my wife is, even objectively speaking is a real bombshell, blonde, 5'2" blue eyes, 105 lbs with a knockout body, even at 41. Guys are always checking her out, following us on the beach etc.)

cont.
Posted By: sickwithworry Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 01:58 PM
cont.

A month ago, she lied to me about going to a costume party where although she told me she stayed for 30 minutes, apparently she changed outfits 5 times and was there for several hours. The party was so wild the police came twice, mind you my wife is 41 years old (I am 42). When I confronted her about her lies on this again, rage. She told me the next day she wanted a separation. She said she "needed time and space to figure this out,” she didn't know how long it would take, and if I pushed I would not like the answer." I asked her if this included dating other people. At first she said yes, then she said that it really wasn't on her radar because there really wasn't anybody she would be interested in right now, but if someone came along who was really sweet and considerate she would think about it. She told me it would be best if I stayed at my dad's the next weekend.

I kept the kids there for 2 weeks, during which time she basically ignored us, partying with her group of younger friends. One Saturday night she said she was going to a friend’s house for a "girl’s party" and spending the night. The next morning we couldn't get in touch with her and when I went over to the house in the afternoon she wasn't there but had been, and on the counter was a receipt for, you guessed it...urinary tract infection medication.

I confronted her about it and all flustered she said she bought it for our next door neighbor. The following weekend when I was out of town she said she was going to visit her aunt an hour away for dinner. She left our 11 year old son at home to be picked up by my brother in law and nephew who were coming in town for a basketball game so he could spend the night with them at a hotel. She called him at 10:45 PM and said she was walking on the beach and that she had a tennis match early the next morning so not to bother calling the house. I looked at her cell phone bill and no calls were made to her aunt until the following day, when she spoke to her for 2 mins…at her house 1500 miles away.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but two weekends later she said she was going to a beach birthday party. Like all the other times, no one can reach her for 14-15 hours. She calls my son the next day and I take the phone. I told her she had disrespected me for the last time. She acted confused. I told her that she knew how I felt when she pulled these all nighters and no one can reach her. She said, “well you just better get used to it!” Next day as I was leaving town I took her outside and told her she was making very poor decisions and was acting out in a very destructive pattern of behavior. I told her that she alone was making a decision to spend the rest of her life alone. I told her that her affair (denied) wouldn’t last and that he didn’t want to marry her, just wanted her for fun and sex. I said no one is going to want to marry a 41 year old with 2 kids that need to be put through college, and that when it was done she would be alone, I would not be there to pick her up. She just stared at the ground and then asked, “What about you? Are you going to be alone?” I said for a little while, but then I would be moving on. She got teary, I went inside, hugged the kids and left.

We did go to marriage counseling where she was very vengeful. Vehemently denied lying but when confronted by me with her stories was flustered in front of the counselor but basically took the attitude, “I can’t help it if you don’t believe me, too bad.” When asked by the MC, she basically said she didn’t know what she wanted. I said I had been thru shock, grief, anger and now was feeling a sense of calm since her telling me she wanted the separation. MC was pretty supportive of me. Told WW, “Well it sounds to like you have just “exploded” into a new person in the past year, and no one can recognize you and you don’t understand why. Does that sound right?” Yes.

She left town the very next morning, apologizing but said it was a special birthday party and would be spending the night. She did ride with our next door neighbor though (female) I didn’t even try to call her.

I found out my finances were in a shambles and took steps to protect myself by canceling our joint checking and re-routing my direct deposit. When she finds out she is going to flip!

I had been plan A’ing for about 2.5 months now, and she did comment on it at the MC, but still no budging on the “attitude.” I am pretty lost. I still have no definitive proof she is having an affair, but the evidence is incredibly strong. I have gone dormant about confronting her about lies and plan to hire a PI.

Sorry for the long post…
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 02:10 PM
Did you move out?

If you did this was a big mistake. You need to move back home pronto.

And then snoop...hire a PI and find out who this guy is and expose the A to everyone!

Posted By: fiori Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 02:12 PM
Dear Sick,
I believe you may need to change the name of your post...you already do know. Your heart is broken but it can be fixed. It's early in the day and the vets will come on and help you through the next step. I just wanted to let you know someone has read your post and is thinking of you. Be patient...
Yes Marshmellow I did move to my dads But I am only able to come home weekends. Kids stay with me every night I am home. Our house is a shambles. Clothes and trash everywhere, no food in the fridge for weeks. All our old friends have been dumped by her as they tell her stuff she doesn't want to hear, like she is wrecking her and her kids life. Even the wives are confidentially telling me that I need to find some way to get the kids. I have applied for a very good job back home, I hope it works out.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Yes Marshmellow I did move to my dads But I am only able to come home weekends. Kids stay with me every night I am home. Our house is a shambles. Clothes and trash everywhere, no food in the fridge for weeks. All our old friends have been dumped by her as they tell her stuff she doesn't want to hear, like she is wrecking her and her kids life. Even the wives are confidentially telling me that I need to find some way to get the kids. I have applied for a very good job back home, I hope it works out.

You need to move back home.

Moving out will be considered abandonment by the courts.

You need to put yourself in the best possible position to fight for your M and your children.

Move back home this weekend!

Don't tell her you're doing it. Just DO IT!

Then document EVERYTHING. Document her neglect of the children.

And snoop! You need info so you can expose her affair.

Exposure is your greatest weapon here.

Move back home as soon as you can.
thank you fiori,

yes, and my thread name prob should be different. I just want to know who and for how long etc. I know that sounds pathetic.

I am in a constant state of limbo, adrenaline, fight or flight syndrome. It is making me a physical wreck. I don't think I can take this much longer...

And she is treating me so cruelly, it is just unbelievable. Although I suppose in order to be cruel, you have to have some regard or respect for the person you are being cruel to, and I think she has neither for me.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 02:36 PM
Quote
I just want to know who and for how long etc. I know that sounds pathetic.

No, it doesn't.

Your reaction is completely normal under these circumstances.

Quote
And she is treating me so cruelly, it is just unbelievable. Although I suppose in order to be cruel, you have to have some regard or respect for the person you are being cruel to, and I think she has neither for me.

She is behaving as all waywards do.

She is being cruel to you b/c you are interferring in her A. Don't back down b/c of her anger...or nastiness.

Buy and read Dr. Harley's books, especially Surviving an Affair.

Get your butt home.
Thanks M,

I am heading home next weekend and will stay at my house this time. Course that won't stop her from going out alone. Just submitted a request to a PI firm in town. Lately it seems she has gotten sloppier at covering her tracks, maybe it's because she's made up her mind and doesn't care if I find out.

I am going to be Mr. Plan A while I get the PI firm to dope this thing out.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 03:58 PM
SWW,

Glad you took my advice to post in GQ. Also glad you are listening to what Marsh suggested in staying at home. It will make a difference that you are being in the home when you are not deployed.

This is going to be rough, but if you follow the steps of MB, you will be trying to save your M, but most of all protecting yourself. In the end, your kids are going to need you strong. I'm sure you have probably followed the abandoned w/3 kids thread that I told you about and you can see how strong he has been for those kids, yet still in so much pain. This is an emotional roller coaster, but you are not alone.

Read the book suggested, Surviving An Affair. There are many other books out there as well. I read several. It really does help to know that you are not alone and to know steps to take when you feel that you are in quick sand.

I'll check back in on you later.

Be strong!
Thanks OnlyU

I will get the book. Just got an email from WW, she wants to know when I am planning on taking the kids to the lake so it doesn't interfere with when SHE is taking the kids to the beach this summer. It's one shocking blow after another.

Do you think she realizes how much this is hurting me and does it on purpose, or just doesn't care?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Thanks M,

I am heading home next weekend and will stay at my house this time. Course that won't stop her from going out alone. Just submitted a request to a PI firm in town. Lately it seems she has gotten sloppier at covering her tracks, maybe it's because she's made up her mind and doesn't care if I find out.

I am going to be Mr. Plan A while I get the PI firm to dope this thing out.

Good man!!!

Be sure to take pics of the house...and the empty fridge.

And take pics of the house after you leave. To show the improvements.

And document everything.

Just state the facts. W/ the dates. Leave out your thoughts or opinions.

When she hits the roof when you move back home, just tell her that you're home now where you belong.

And smile.

Keep posting and reading here.

You'll get lots of support!



Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Thanks OnlyU

I will get the book. Just got an email from WW, she wants to know when I am planning on taking the kids to the lake so it doesn't interfere with when SHE is taking the kids to the beach this summer. It's one shocking blow after another.

Do you think she realizes how much this is hurting me and does it on purpose, or just doesn't care?

She's an addict, SWW.

Addicts don't give a damn about anything except their drug.

Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 04:42 PM
SWW,

Echoing what Marsh said about addicts!!

Your priority needs to be action steps to protect you and the kids. It may seem like you are doing them numb, but you will be so glad that you did them in the end.

Remember to document the facts regarding what you already know about her UTI issues and the new frequency of OTC meds.

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 04:43 PM
How long have you been M?

How old are your kids?
Yes Marshmellow,

She must bo Soooo happy right now. She has the freedom to do whatever she wants, she has all the money she wants (until next payday) and she has free child care when I come home on weekends so she can go spend the night out with whomever with no guilt about leaving the kids alone.

I think there's gonna be a real storm when she sees I have changed my military pay to go into my new account. She will tell everyone that I have now cut her and the kids off financially and they are starving. Her "new friends" will eat it hook line and sinker, our old tried and true friends won't believe a word. If she does I will have to tell a few people that I am sending her $400 a week just for groceries (I will have to somehow make sure she starts buying some) and incidentals and she can continue to charge at our country club.

I know I shouldn't care. It's tough though.
onlyUcan,

started a journal last fall. I actually thought about throwing it away at one point because I was believing her when she was telling me not to worry that nothing was going on. I sue hadn't found this site yet. She even was "kind" enough to sleep with me, although she had her eyes closed, head turned and told me I needed to hurry in case the kids somehow picked the lock on the door or soemthing. Could tell this was not the same person I had been sleeping with for 19 years.

Anyway, I will take my post from here and add some other details and restart the journal. I guess this helps in a legal divorce case?
Marshmallow,

we married in 1990 and our D is 14 and S is 11. We started dating in college though. This September will be 24 years, except for a year breakup my senior year in college when I was in Officer Candidate School. I saw an IC who was very interested in what i am about to tell you. I told her that I had broken up with her because she was a pathological liar, about even the stupidest stuff that she didn't have to lie about. She was also smothering me so much I couldn't breath.

She almost immediately started dating one of my "friends" and was sleeping with him, going to functions where I was etc. She did it to make me jealous and boy did it work. While she was dating him she would tell me that I was really missing out with her, especaially the sex. I caved, told her I wanted her back, she dumped him that day after dating him for 6 months.

He was devastated!

There's a ton more that I am absolutely certain is highly relevant to this whole situation, and it has to do with her sexual past (when we married she had told me she had only had sex with 2 other people, 1 being the friend, over 20 years the truth came out and is pretty scandalous) but as a newbie I am not sure what is and isn't appropriate to put in a post here.
Posted By: keepitreal Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Yes Marshmellow I did move to my dads But I am only able to come home weekends. Kids stay with me every night I am home. Our house is a shambles. Clothes and trash everywhere, no food in the fridge for weeks. All our old friends have been dumped by her as they tell her stuff she doesn't want to hear, like she is wrecking her and her kids life. Even the wives are confidentially telling me that I need to find some way to get the kids. I have applied for a very good job back home, I hope it works out.
Here is my advice:
Go home and take pictures to document everything. Then hire one of those quick cleaning services for the day (keep payment record to prove it) and have them clean and throw junk out. THEN move your things back in and take back ownership!
Posted By: keepitreal Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Marshmallow,



There's a ton more that I am absolutely certain is highly relevant to this whole situation, and it has to do with her sexual past (when we married she had told me she had only had sex with 2 other people, 1 being the friend, over 20 years the truth came out and is pretty scandalous) but as a newbie I am not sure what is and isn't appropriate to put in a post here.

If it's relevant to your situation, it should be fine to post here (minus the x-rated details)..it's a pretty open atmosphere.

For instance, one could say their spouse was involved in orgies, but would not want to graphically describe each act .
keepitreal

ok, i am anonymous and i do think it relevent.

This has come out slowly over 20 years that she didn't have only 2 other guys before me, it was more like 9 (that she's told me about.) All these were before she was 18. 1 was when she was on a boat and went below to get a soft drink and her friends FATHER sitting on the couch started rubbing her rear end through her bathing suit. She ended up having s** with him on the couch (she 16, he prob 40) and the daughter came down stairs and caught them but WW says she couldn't stop.

Several were 1 night stands including 1 guy on a chair in a room full of supposedly sleeping teenagers, "because he really wanted to."

And this, several experiences with other girls, 1 of which included the girls brother, who caught them and joined in with WW while sister, well whatever.

I prob should have know this when she spent the night on our first date and slept with me, and when I awoke in the AM she had me in her mouth.

She was voracious in this regard. After we split up it was about 5 other guys that she's told me about, including several youger fraternity brothers of mine and a couple of 1 night stands.

Here's the interesting thing. I told my IC all of this including the story of how she dated my friend to make me jealous. I will just relate this to you, please don't crash me, and no I'm not holding onto false hopes.

IC said, "I don't think your wife is actaully having A." She said, "I think she might have made up a lot of those stories. You've told me she is an extremely smart person, and very street smart. You told me how she got you back, she made you jealous and was willing to date and dump another person to do it. I think she is a manipulator and control freak (not her word, I just can't remember how she put it) and has to "win" at all costs and doesn't care what she has to do or who it hurts to do it. She knew you were hunting and yet she left her now tagless worn lingerie in the drawer? She feels you have abandoned her now by working in another city although she says she understands the need. Something is not right here."

I know IC is probably not going to agree WW having A without solid proof. It is interesting though that after years of making several hundred k a year, and now we go thru a rough patch (but still senior officer pay is pretty good) now is the time we decide to step out and say we need to separate.

Whew, I'm exhausted...
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 06:18 PM
I think that you know you should have stay broken up w/ her back in college. But, you can't go backwards..

You might find that you don't want to stay married to her, SWW.

And you won't be able to begin to figure that out, until you find out what exactly is going on.

Focus on your children. Get in there and do what you can to stabilize your family. Do you have family near by who can visit them alot...check on them?

And try to gain whatever advantage you can, in case you have to fight for custody.





Posted By: Tyk Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 07:00 PM
You're getting good advice SWW. Get back home and take care of your kids. You're right you can't stop her from doing what she's going to do, but don't make it any easier on her either!

You don't have to give her money for groceries, for example. Go shopping yourself, or have a trusted family member or friend help you out.

Find out the truth about the A. A PI is a great way to go, while he's at it, have him find out as much as he can about the OM. Then you will be able to formulate a game plan. For now, ignore WW, Plan A your W when you get a chance, document EVERYTHING as much as possible and start investing as much time as possible with your kids.

Prepare for the storm when you move home. Commit yourself to not taking the bait and getting into a fight with your WW. Tell her you're home because its your home and that's where you belong. If she wants to live apart from you, its her problem, not yours.

My WW was very abusive to me as well. The only way to know if you can or want to save this is to end the A. Maximum effort needs to be directed towards that goal once you know what you're dealing with.

Good luck!
Posted By: keepitreal Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 07:28 PM
I am terribly sorry. It sounds as if WW has major issues. If it weren't for the children, my opinion of what to do would come very easily. It sounds as if she has never had boundaries at all, which is a major character flaw.

Please call the Harleys and ask their expert advice.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 07:31 PM
Too bad you picked such a bad egg to marry and have kids with. Maybe you can mooooooove toward divorce slowly. Taking a step at a time, and documenting everything she does and says.

I think if you stay with this one you will have a life full of heartache. Why waste the rest of your precious life that way.
Posted By: keepitreal Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 07:34 PM
I wanted to add..I think your IC is a total idiot of she doesn't believe WW is having an affair. PLEASE find a new IC!
Marshmallow,

you are right, and your post gave me an incredible sense of peace. Finally, something I can control.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 07:37 PM
SWW,

Notice what Tyk said.... Ignore your WW....Plan A your W.

There is a difference. The Plan A acts are for your WIFE, not the Wayward one. Ignore all of her acting out.

My first thought on the groceries was buy them yourself online, but if she's not there to "accept" delivery, that won't work. If you are home every weekend, you can shop then and leave some "back up" money with a trusted friend or neighbor for the kids if they need it. Heck, give the kids an allowance that is just for them. Not sure if she would steal from them or take it out on them.

It is about to get really rough when you cut her off financially so get your ducts in a row, brace yourself and be ready. You don't want to rationalize with her and try to talk to the WW at all.

And I agree with keepitreal, your IC doesn't "get it". Maybe not alot of experience with infidelity.

Hang in there.
I will Tyk,

She really is abusive. I am not trying to absolve myself of any guilt, I wasn't always a wonderful husband, but a lot of this is my fault. NOT the A, but I have allowed her to treat me poorly for a long time.

I was always the one that loved her more I think and I think she took advantage of that. I worked so she didn't have to. I cooked most nights and brought her water in bed (filtered, chilled, no ice) and would rub her back and feet nearly every night for 30-45 minutes. I never minded, I liked doing things for her. I wasn't always perfect though, and boy did she remind me of it.

Several years ago, she told me one morning after we dropped our kids off at elem school that she had been invited to the Super Bowl, but she didn't think she was going. I said good. She asked why. And I said I didn't think it was appropriate for a 35 year old married woman to run off to Tampa and stay in a rented condo for a weekend with single men and women. She got outraged and shouted at me, "I NEED THIS; I DESERVE THIS!" and squeeled out of the parking lot. No answer on phone or any calls. I was so devastated i picked up the kids and went to my sister and brother in laws for the weekend. She called 1 time, Sat night around midnight from a bar in Ybor City. It was so loud we could make out about 1 in 3 words. When she came back Sunday she was all teary and sweet and apologized. Had sex with me every night for a week.

And what do I do??? Tell her it's ok, you did deserve a break etc. etc. What a pathetic joke I have been; why should she have any reson to think she could not control me. It's no wonder she doesn't respect me.

IC told me that since I have been standing up to her (which coincidentally is when this whole cycle started) and not buying her lies about where's she's been that it outrages her. She wants the "old me" back who doesn't question her and lets her do what she wants and punishes and berates when he dares to talk back. She thinks, "well he's gone too far this time and if he doesn't settle down and stop asking questions abuot A, I can just leave him."
keepitreal,

thanks, I have never set any boundaries for her and neither did her parents. She has always gotten whatever she wanted.

Her parents by the way lost all their money, Mom blamed everything on Dad. As they were going bankrupt Mom sold a piece of property for 130K (20 years ago) and blew it all on wedding for first daughter at the Ritz for 800 people.

Parent have been separated for 12-15 years, but not divorced. Still see each other frequently.
You are right Stellakat,

I worry, and so do close friends, that she will pretend to "see the light" come back and be all sweet and loving, but it will all be a ruse, and then soon go back to her old ways of abusive language, criticism etc. A never ending cycle.

I really wish I had a spouse that respected me and I respected. That could show a little love and affection. I'm not talking about a phony relationship where no on ever fights, just an occasional kind word would be nice. Something simple like "good job, you look nice today" things that I say frequently to WW.

I can't remember the last time in 20 years where she ever told me she loved me before I said it. And then usually a brisk, "love you too" and change topic quickly. She is a taker extraordinaire.

About the spending the rest of my life in this bad way, you know, I am not Brad Pitt, but I'm not horrible either. I am only 42, in good shape, and have a very good career. Maybe there is hope after all...
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 08:37 PM
FWIW, I don't think your WW is having an A. I suspect that she is cheating, but not with any particular individual. I echo the suggestion made previously about hiring a PI and getting the truth.


Originally Posted by ManInMotion
FWIW, I don't think your WW is having an A. I suspect that she is cheating, but not with any particular individual. I echo the suggestion made previously about hiring a PI and getting the truth.

I agree, too much partying going on for it to be one guy (or girl).
I agree princessmeggy and MIM,

I suspect it might be more than 1 guy or girl. Maybe this group of new friends are swingers, heck I don't know. Our community of friends is fairly small and I would think I might have heard the rumours, but maybe not, I am not known for being a person that would be interested in that. Not to be a prude, it's just not for me.
Posted By: Aphelion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 09:31 PM
SWW,

I have been where you are. It lasted years and tears. It’s called married singles. Produced at least two known affairs, one lasting ten years.

My advice:

Document, document, document!

Journal and pictures as appropriate. Make sure you list the cold hard facts. It’s OK to put your feelings about the facts in your journal too, but make sure the facts are there in black and white and stand on their own when read by a third party. Keep this journal and the pictures well hidden.

Move back home ASAP. If it gets that far, judges declare abandonment if a spouse moves out for more than a few weeks (27 days in this state.) Makes it very difficult to get custody and spousal support if you are declared the abandoning spouse, no matter how much you come back and visit. So, if you want custody (and it goes this far) get back in the house now and let her move out if that’s what she wants to do. Your children must stay in their own home with you, the functioning parent, no matter what! (Note the exclamation point.)

Kill two birds with one stone and clean your house with your kids. Make it a family project, even if your WW will not join in. Homemade pizza and a DVD afterwards. Saves you mucho $ too.

With the saved $ call the MB counseling center!! (Two exclamation points.)

Call an attorney and get the straight and hard advice about legal separation in your state. Call more than one if you have to. Changing your financials like you already have may already be construed as abandonment if things go far enough. And I think they will, sorry.

With prayers,

eta: There are indications of drug or alcohol use here too.
Posted By: Carlee Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/03/08 11:18 PM
Hello, SWW!

I am so sorry for what you are going through. As I read through this thread, something occured to me that I do not believe has been mentioned.

While several posted about the possibility that your WW was addicted to drugs, my thought is that she may be a sex addict. Her behavior is consistent with a neighbor of mine, who was highly promiscuous, but kept it hidden from her husband for many years. She had also been sexually abused as a child, and acting out in a sexual way was how she got her "fix."

I'm definitely not qualified to make any type of diagnosis, but I think it's something you may want to explore. I'm praying for you and your family, and wish you all the best.
Aphelion,

talked to atty friend last night. Our state is a "no fault" state, and since I am in the military and stationed out of state he said no "abandonment" issues, particularly since the kids stay with me whenever I come home. He did say I should stay home though if possible for their comfort unless it is a toxic environment.

WW called out of the blue last night. Was really sweet. Just wanted to talk. Told her I would be home next weekend. She said, "oh great, I have a debutatne party Friday night for a friends daughter, other than that nothing going on."

The party is one that Mr. and Mrs. SWW are hosting at great expense if I am not mistaken.
Hi Carlee,

I don't know either about a s** addiction. She is a very private person but seems to get very uncomfortable around and speaking about her father. I have no idea if there is anything there, just a nagging feeling.

Her sexual history though, I think is extreme. Having s** with your friends father while your friend watched because you say that you just couldn't stop at that point is totally something i cannot fathom. And how they maintained that friendship past that point even until today is also something I can't believe.

I think she needs a lot of IC, whether we ultimately stay together or not.
Aphelion,

Can you or anyone else give me some advice here. As I said talked to WW last night about party next weekend I think we are hosting.

Should I ask her about it or just let her go alone? If it is one we are supposed to be hosting, it's apparent she doesn't want me to go with her despite what the invitation says. If she lies and says it's not that night and it turns out she's lying again what more do I have?

Or, is this a good oportunity to talk to PI to snoop and I just stay quiet?
Posted By: Tyk Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/04/08 02:23 PM
By "hosting" do you mean it is at your home? Or hosted elsewhere? Regardless, plan on showing up. Act as if you expected your presence was wanted and/or required.
No tyk,

it's at someone else's home. I am just wondering if it looks desperate to ask her if this is the party we are supposed to be co-hosting together, and why would a party like this be for girls only on a friday night. after all, she told MC she doesn't know what she wants and that it's too eraly to talk about going on a "date" with me right now. I am just afriad it'll whiny or needy.
Posted By: Tyk Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/04/08 02:38 PM
Find out about the party. Call a friend on the guest list and ask.

This wanting "space" from you by your WW, its pretty normal. What waywards want is to continue thier A unimpeded. If its a party you are invited to, that you are co-hosting, then show up. How she reacts to that is her problem.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/04/08 04:42 PM
SWW,

Having the unfortunate experience with an SA, I was contemplating your situation and the new history that you have shared and I think it might be wise for you to find a COSA group for additional support as well.

IF she is an SA (and based on my non-professional opinion, she really shows signs of it), you are on a difficult, in some cases harder path than a straight affair. Addiction is an additional component.

Find your foundation in the MB principles, continue to follow the advice regarding documentation, investigating and protecting yourself and add to that a COSA meeting or two and get some more knowledge under your belt.

Should your WW decide to commit to recovery with you, you will need all the support you can get because the odds of RELAPSES are VERY high. frown

Good luck my friend.
onlyUcan

What is COSA?
Posted By: Aphelion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/04/08 06:40 PM
SWW> “If it is one we are supposed to be hosting, it's apparent she doesn't want me to go with her despite what the invitation says. If she lies and says it's not that night and it turns out she's lying again what more do I have?

Or, is this a good oportunity to talk to PI to snoop and I just stay quiet?”

I say go with her (best) or just show up on your own with the invitation. Tell her you thought it was the party you are hosting together. If she complains, tell her you just plain want to be there with her. You LOVE going places and doing things with her, and there has been far too little of it in your opinion.

Also tell the PI where it is in case you can't go (you have to stay with the kids or she sneaks off without you, or whatever.)

I think your WW has big problems. Her past is an indicator. That kind of behavior does not just go away on its own. Also, I don't know about SA, but it does look like some recreational drug use on top of everything else.

Re abandonment: Could you be living in the house with your family and not at your dad's regardless of your job? Further, cutting off her financial support is a big issue in courts. I recommend you think well ahead here. If you want custody, start mapping the field now.

Can you call the MB counseling center?

With prayers,
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/04/08 06:42 PM
SWW,

Just read your thread.
Do you really feel the need to hire a PI?

The lies, underwear, infection meds. etc, etc...

Keep the PI money in "your" account. She is hiding nothing, nor does it seem she is trying very hard.

Install spyware on her PC, tap the home phone, go back to Base for a week. You'll have everything you need the following weekend. If not, take a few days leave on a day/days she has "plans" and follow her yourself.

My guess is she maybe juggling more than one OM from the sound of it.

Once you get the solid proof you require, I would wager on the outcome, it's time to get busy.

Protecting the kids, money, and A exposure will be your primary focus.

When is your current tour of duty over? what are your plans at the end of that commitment?

Just know... the horrible feeling of betrayal has been shared by all most everyone on this site, and yes, you will survive this.

It will/does take work just to eat, sleep, remain physically healthy.

Also, do nothing, or say nothing to her without planning first. Never reveal sources to her. Keep this forum to yourself for now anyway.

-JKT



Thanks Aphelion,

I just spoke to her 10 minutes ago, this is not the party, it is an Annual Ball. She and friends daughter who is makeing her debut are the 2 single girls at the table. She said she wasn't expecting me home that weekend as I had said nothing and her friend had one seat left and asked her to sit there. I can believe it, it is her way, not to ask if I would want to come home fo it.

On the finances thing, I am definitely not cutting her off, I am just putting her on a budget like everyone else in the world has to do. She has been spending 10k per month, none of it on food for the kids, partying, and we were bouncing checks right and left. We had 300 in bounced check fees last month alone. I have to take control of the situation before it flies more out of control.

On the drug use thing, there were like 6 checks for 300 doallrs last month alone all made out to her.

Just broke the news to her in a reasoned rational explanation. SHE IS LIVID!!!
Justkeeptrying,

you may be right. But the PI thing I feel gives me closure and proof, but mostly closure. If I got caught following her around I don't think I could ever overcome the embarrasment.

My current tour is over in October, so it'ss be al ot of 8 hour drives or 1.5 hour flights. Then I am trying to set up a civilian job or get a last tour of duty in my hometown which is a huge military town.

You are right about sharing sources. I am just trying to be very calm, rational and kind to her. I did break the news that we would both be on a budget from now on and have transparent finances, something she has fought me on before. Shared logins/passwrods etc. I had trusted her for so long that I never felt I had any reason to need access. She is very angry about that.

As for this forum, for the past few days it has been my only source of strength. The news isn't always what you want to hear, but it is honest, and caring. It's like if you had Cancer, who would you rather talk to, a Cancer survivor or a "sympathizer?" I would never share this forum!
Posted By: Aphelion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/04/08 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
I can believe it, it is her way, not to ask if I would want to come home for it."
I understand. I do. FWW did this very thing for years and years. Even before she started the VLTA. She was a married single.

I didn’t know it was insidious. I thought her "freedom" was important. Made me feel good (in a sad sitting home alone kind of way.) I was meeting some sort of need of hers.

Typical BS fog. I wasn’t meeting any need of hers. I was ignoring my boundaries. I sat at home taking care of family while she partied and affaired.

This kind of behavior is a cancer. It grows. In both of you.

She needs you to tell her she is married and she is to act like it. She can be a wife and mother or she can leave. You need to trust yourself here. Do what is right. She may leave. And then you will know.

I did this after D-Day 2 of the VLTA and she indeed left. Eventually, she came back - a different person. Not all the way different, even yet, but the trajectory is positive. And I keep the pressure on.

However, the devil is in the details, which is why you should call the MB counseling center. They will help you time it and say it and do it best. And understand it.

Do not be afraid. Anything is better than being sick with worry, right?

Originally Posted by sickwithworry
On the finances thing, I am definitely not cutting her off, I am just putting her on a budget like everyone else in the world has to do. She has been spending 10k per month, none of it on food for the kids, partying, and we were bouncing checks right and left. We had 300 in bounced check fees last month alone. I have to take control of the situation before it flies more out of control.

On the drug use thing, there were like 6 checks for 300 doallrs last month alone all made out to her.

Just broke the news to her in a reasoned rational explanation. SHE IS LIVID!!!
Document! Document! Document!

Hope for the best. Plan for the worst. But PLAN!

With prayers,

ed: Perhaps you see your wife in here? Perhaps yourself? Married Singles. MB strongly recommend 15 hrs a week doing things togther. Just the two of you.
Aphelion,

thank you. Yes, I am documenting. Printed bank statements show the finances and I emailed her the news about the budgetting process after I had my lawyer friend look it over. CC'd myself and BCC'd a couple of other close friends. Very reasoned, factual and assuring that she will not want for anything financially at all, just that we would begin sharing those duties and budget better.

I think she is livid because that was the oxygen that fueled her A and maybe more.

So you went thru the married single thing for years. Heck, 10 months has nearly killed me. So you know what its like to come home from Home Depot and find your wife all showered in a tight pink sweater, hair done in a ponytail, tight jeans with holes in the knees and high heeled boots at 5PM on a saturday and say, "no, I dont't have any plans, why do you ask? Oh I just put on nicer clothes because our neighbors in laws are here and didn't want to look grubby.

Then 2 hours later, "Hey, you and the kids go ahead to dinner, (insert female name) just called and we are going over there for awhile to watch the game. Out the door. Gone.

Makes one feel really "special."
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/04/08 08:07 PM
It's the equivalent of AlAnon for spouses/family of alcoholics. Only for SA (sex addicts).

Whether it ends up being SA or A's, cover all your bases.

Good job on the budget! Sounds like you handled that nicely and it makes total sense. (maybe not to her)
Posted By: Carlee Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/04/08 08:44 PM
Only U,

I'm so glad that you echoed my concern about the possibility of SA. The behavior of the WW is very similiar to my neighbor's wife, who was deeply entrenched in the addiction. For a long period of time, she secretly engaged in very high risk behaviors, putting her entire family at risk. Ultimately, I believe the husband received support from COSA, as well.

I hope we are wrong about this, but I fear we are not. :-(

Remaining Prayerful,

Carlee

Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/04/08 09:21 PM
Carlee,

Based on her history it feels like this could be the case. I'm hoping not as well for SWW, but I want him to have all his ducts in a row to do the best thing for his M. We all know how hard it is to go through this.

He's gotten some really good feedback on this thread.
onlyUcan and carlee,

I hope you are wrong, but I have no idea. I alternate between a sense of calm resolve and panic these days. Right now, calm resolve. I emailed WW yesterday about taking over finances and budgetting.

She responded with trying to change passwords and login on cell phone records and other online accounts. I received texts that she was attempting to do this. There has been no contact for 24 hours.

I have finally shown a little backbone for the first time in our marriage; do I try to contact her or just wait and let her call me when she finally gets it thru her head that without any income and everything in my name she really has no options????

This loss of total control over our money is hitting her hard i know! But from a remote location for now it is the only thing I know for right now until I return home to stop a probable A.
Posted By: Carlee Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/05/08 10:20 PM
Dear SWW,

From where I sit, you are doing EVERYTHING in your power to change the course of events. Of course, there's only so much you can control, especially while being physically away from WW,and given her unstable behaviors. However, responding by tightening the purse strings is a smart move. You are taking some of your power back, which I believe needs to happen if you hope to turn things around.

I trust that Only U Can and others with more experience in this type of situation, will lend their wisdom to this thread and advise you.

For what it's worth, I think you are doing a very admirable job of "keeping it together" in light of extraordinarily difficult circumstances. Please allow me and others here at the MB Forum be a source of strength for you.

You and your family will remain in my prayers,

Carlee
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/05/08 10:20 PM
SWW,

Did you say whether you were able to set up a counseling appt through MB? Do all your homework here on the strategies for saving your M so that you have arrows in your quiver when you return home. Not to shoot at her, but to shoot through the FOG and keep your aim clear on what you are trying to attempt. Each weekend home will build more and more blocks in your foundation. In doing this, you are creating an even more attractive home life for your W, not WW to rejoin in and save this M and family. Should she decide not to, you are steps ahead in moving forward.

Stay the course!
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/05/08 10:29 PM
Good job freezing the acccounts. The money gives her access to have affairs. You were paying for her affair/partying behaviors! Lucky you put a stop to it. Even if you end up divorced she cannot use your money to continue her bad behavior. That is a good thing.
thanks to everyone,

i have some rather incredible news, but unfortunately i am at a conference and have to give a speech in 5 minutes so looged on at the hotel real quick. i will post this afternoon. this is really weird...
Posted By: Carlee Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/06/08 09:11 PM
Dear SWW,

You've peaked my curiosity! I'll be watching for your post. :-)

Carlee
Posted By: Tyk Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/06/08 09:53 PM
That is completely unfair.

Hi Carlee,

Texted the WW yesterday before leaving Washington. Trying to plan A a little after closing down her bank accounts etc. I knew she would still be angry. Anyway she texts me back and says she's no longer angry and was sorry for flying off the handle. Told me she understood why i was doing it and didnt blame me. Spoke to her again last night for a half hour, very funny and pleasant conversation, no mention of any troubles, although of course she went out with 2 of our homosexual male friends earlier that night as one of their parents was in town, or so she said, once again leaving our 2 kids at home alone. The kids did say they were invited though but didn't choose to go. These are the guys she left me with to disappear to the Super Bowl in Tampa a few years ago. I used to feel safe with them taking her to events when i was out of town or deployed because they took good care of her, are very nice, and I didn't have to worry about anyone hitting on her.

Anyway, here's the fog babble I believe. She said she was glad I was making such an effort to keep us together and that she had had to do something to shock me and wake me up and pay attention to our her and the children before they were old enough to leave the house.

Now I grant that the military is hard on families and the separation is also difficult, but essentially she is, I think, trying to claim that she started partying like a teenager, leaving our kids at home 6 nights a week, planted lingerie and UTI medicine around the house to make it look like she was having an A and then told me she wanted a separation, started spending the night out with no contact and told me to "get used to it" in order to shock some sense into me that she was feeling very neglected/abandoned and so were the kids. I asked her if that was the case; that she had done all that to get me to "wake up and pay attention to her and the kids?" She didn't answer...

I was speechless. First I don't believe hardly a word of it, there's far too much going on for that to be the sole reason, although she has complained about it for awhile, even though we mutually agreed that I needed to take this job because of the pay.

I thinks PLan A is working a bit, she seems more amenable to talking to me now that i am nicer, but it won't be enough to stop the A or A's.

I think this is an excellent time to stop asking questions about A's to lull her into a false sense of security that I've finally stoped wondering, practice plan A and continue to very surrepticiously snoop, perhaps with the PI. What do you think?

I won't be home till next weekend, so I am sure her social calendar will be very full this weekend as well.

Lastly on another front, I found myself really depressed and needy today. I know, sorry if you think all military officers are Rambo all the time. But I find with her being nice to me now, even if she is manipulating me and doesn't mean it, makes me miss her all the more and despair when she doesn't call me and my mind begins to wander to thoughts of where she is and with whom, and the fact that i've been dumped. OK, nuff whining.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/06/08 10:10 PM
Quote
perhaps with the PI.

I thought you already hired one?

I don't get it.

Quote
I thinks PLan A is working a bit, she seems more amenable to talking to me now that i am nicer...

Maybe the stick part of Plan A, although she could do w/ alot more stick if you hire a PI and find out what's going on!

She's being nicer b/c she doesn't want you to cut off the money.

Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/06/08 10:16 PM
SWW,

Just be careful. Remember that the FOG is so thick, whether it is the FOG of an A or the FOG of addiction. She has had time to think about this with her "shock" that you are taking action.

Make some plans for fun things to do with your kids when you get back home next weekend. Preoccupy your time with thoughts of them and with healthy activities so you don't go crazy this weekend.

Marshmallow,

No just spoke with a PI and got details. I have to talk to him when i get in town late this week to devise best plan of what are the best times to follow her. of course with her, just about any time the sun starts to go down is appropriate these days.

I agree, she doesn't want me to cut off all the $ she has been blowing through.
onlyUcan,

OK, I will focus on the kids. Just found out she is going out again tonight while I sit in a hotel...sigh...
Tyk,

Yeah that was a little crummy to do, sorry. I had only a few minutes and didn't have time to post the whole thing till now.
Posted By: Carlee Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/06/08 11:45 PM
Hello, SWW!

Well, that is a very interesting turn of events. This is not my area of expertise, but it seems that you've made progress and can at least remain "cautiously optimistic." I'm sure feels good just to be on better speaking terms with your wife.

Of course, as OnlyU and Marsh have suggested, there is still much work to be done. Remain strong, my friend, and don't apologize for needing emotional support. As human beings, we all need that.

Please keep us posted. We're pulling for you. :-)

Carlee
Thanks Carlee and everyone,

Stop the presses, WW is actually staying home on a friday night with her children and is cooking real "food" bought at one of these places called a "grocery store" on this contraption called a "stove". She also took them to the pool all day today and apparently took time to speak to them.

I know it won't last but at this point anything is a reason to have a little hope. Actually called me and said she was going to feed the kids and would call me later...
I haven't chimed in yet, but I thought I'd give you some support (and btw, even Rambo must get emotional every once in awhile).

I think you're doing a GREAT job with what you have to deal with. I spent, I guess, the first ten years of my M as a married single. I knew my friend's H's didn't behave like mine, but I could never seem to get him to understand that it was wrong to go out and party without your W and when I stood up, I was seen as a b*tch. I now know better. The last three+ years, H added an A to the mix and I still never managed to get through the fog and stand up.

Then H came clean (of his own accord). We've been working on recovery for four months now. It's a rough road, but he's started to become that H that I always hoped I would have but never did.

I guess I'm telling you this because I think it's sometimes important to know that it CAN change. That your WW CAN change. That it CAN get better. It doesn't always, but it CAN.

I think the PI is an excellent idea. Putting the question to rest in your own mind will enable you to stay steadfast in your journey. And once you have proof, you can expose and hopefully end it.

I'm not a vet, so I may not give the best advice, but I want you to know that I am here as well...fighting the fight, working through the challenges, riding the roller coaster...and if a housewife can survive it, then Rambo sure can.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/07/08 01:05 AM
SWW,

Any chance your WW found this thread?

I thought that b/c "not knowing was physically killing you" you'd have had that PI working over time for you...

So, YES, hire one, pronto.

I read or heard Dr. Harley once say that when a man takes abuse from his WW, and is still in love w/ her, it is more than likely b/c she is very beautiful.

I wonder if this explains, in part, your R.





hicktownmommy,

thanks for your comments. It's weird, my story is similar, I never really stood up to my WW. Good for you for standing up, maybe it will work for me as well.
Marshmallow,

Any chance you were that Marine Gunny I had 19 years ago? I need it! Thanks! You are right, I needed to get off my [censored], sneak home, hire the PI and get it over with already and stop whining and making excuses. I go home thursday, i will talk to this guy again Monday.

No chance WW has found this thread. I have told no one about it, and I work in a facility where nobody can ever see what i am doing on a computer unless they are inside and while I am logged on at a hotel I have taken measures to be sure I cannot be traced or it can be traced to me, unless someone was really serious and suspected already, which, as I said I have said nothing.

Interesting what you said about Dr. Harley. Did he really say that "when a man takes abuse from his WW, and is still in love w/ her, it is more than likely b/c she is very beautiful?" That sounds like an odd thing to hear from a Psychologist, but must come from extensive experience.

That sounds like my situation to a tee. She is. She is a real head turner. All she has to do is smile or wear the right outfit and guys flip. I always knew it and took some satisfaction that my W was really hot, but never worried at all about an A till the last year.

As I look back, I remember times we would go out together and she (as I recollect now) was looking smoking hot, tight skirt, heels, low cut top, hair done, and guys definitely paying attention. I never really thought about it. She used to gripe that I wouldn't get her a drink when she wanted, that i was talking to my friends and ignoring her.

I guess 20 years of that and she had had enough. What a mistake that was!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/07/08 05:22 AM
I'm not sure Dr. Harley said it was abuse the H was taking...maybe it was just not getting his EN's met. It's been a while since I read/heard it.

If I were to guess, I'd say your number one EN is physical appearance followed by SF.

Your W met your top ENs very easily for you.

Which is probably why you ignored your better judgement back in college when you got back together w/ her.

And why you have over looked alot of her behavior during your M.

What about her ENs? Do you know what her top ENs are?

And how can you meet them when you are away from her 5 days a week? Dr. Harley says you ought to be spending 15 hours a week together.
















Hi Marsh,

Actually not. While I have always appreciated that my W was beautiful it was not my number one need by any stretch. While I have not having taken the EN test yet so I don't know the exact terminology, i would say my number one EN would be affection and validation that i was loved in return. Also, SF for me is not an act just to fulfill a physical need. In fact I have been by far the more giving of the 2 of us in that respect.

As far as why i got back together in college, yes she made me jealous by dating my friend, but she also changed her appraoch completely and began opening up and sharing her feelings with me, told me she loved me and wanted to marry me and why. As we got back together there was a concerted effort on her part to meet those needs.

Once we were married though it went back to as it was before. I was always the one to say "I love you." Maybe this is not one of her needs.

Why Have I overlooked her bahaviour during our M? I honestly don't know. Maybe I have been too scared to really stand up to her. She has a temper, and also plays the shutting down card very well to get what she wants. She needs $, social status, position and power. (I don't mean to portray her completely as a calculating shallow person, she can, very very occasionally be affectionate and sweet.) I provided that for her for a long time. When our business went down the tubes though, primarily due to 2 years of hurricanes, her need for $ began to not be met. My IC says she feels abandoned due to my travel etc. but this behaviour on her part never cropped up when the $ were rolling in.

Do I honestly know what her emotional needs are? I would have to say no. She does not like to discuss matters of the heart at all; makes her very uncomfortable I believe because she has to show vulnerability.

How do I spend 15 hours a week in my current situation? I can't, that's why I am desperately trying to get a civilian job lined up at home.

My sister recently asked me, "You are trying to get this huge job that pays a lot of money at home because you know that's what will make WW happy right? Well what kind of marriage do you have if that's all that's important to her?"
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/07/08 04:00 PM
Here are the list of emotional needs...

Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration

When you take the questionaire, don't answer according to what needs your W isn't meeting. Try to answer them according to what really makes you feel loved.

And vice versa. B/c your W is beautiful, you might be tempted to put that need at the bottom, b/c she has got that covered.

You see?

It takes a little thought.


Quote
Also, SF for me is not an act just to fulfill a physical need.

Right. Which is why Dr. Harley includes it in his EMOTIONAL needs list. It is more than just a physical need. It is an emotional need too.

I think it is the one place where men are 'allowed' to be intimate.

Quote
As far as why i got back together in college, yes she made me jealous by dating my friend, but she also changed her appraoch completely and began opening up and sharing her feelings with me, told me she loved me and wanted to marry me and why. As we got back together there was a concerted effort on her part to meet those needs.


This isn't what you originally said. I believe you, I just think your initial post was more telling about what really got to you then.

Also, w/ regards to your W's beauty. Lots of men mention their Ws good looks, but you mention them more than most. That's why I still think physical attraction is a high need of yours.

Quote
Why Have I overlooked her bahaviour during our M? I honestly don't know. Maybe I have been too scared to really stand up to her. She has a temper,

This is the one thing that has puzzled many women on the board. Why so many BS's are afraid of their Ws anger.

Don't be afraid of her anger. She has learned how to use it to get what she THINKS she wants from you. What she really wants...what all women really want is a man who is man enough to stand up to her.

Honest.

Hold her accountable for her actions. Decide what you want from your M, and if she can't/won't try to build that kind of M w/ you, then cut her loose.

Take note of what happened when you took back control of the money. Initially she got angry. But, when you didn't fall apart at it, what did she do?

Quote
She needs $, social status, position and power. (I don't mean to portray her completely as a calculating shallow person, she can, very very occasionally be affectionate and sweet.) I provided that for her for a long time. When our business went down the tubes though, primarily due to 2 years of hurricanes, her need for $ began to not be met. My IC says she feels abandoned due to my travel etc. but this behaviour on her part never cropped up when the $ were rolling in.

Her number one EN might be FS. Which might be the reason she started 'acting' out when you took a pay cut.

Or...

it could be something else that you provided when you were home more. W/ her more.

Quote
How do I spend 15 hours a week in my current situation? I can't, that's why I am desperately trying to get a civilian job lined up at home.

Good! B/c your M and family is falling apart and if you want to have a prayer at saving either/both, you need to get yourself home more often than just weekends.

Quote
My sister recently asked me, "You are trying to get this huge job that pays a lot of money at home because you know that's what will make WW happy right? Well what kind of marriage do you have if that's all that's important to her?"

And what was your reply to her?













Marsh,

you are right. I need to take the EN test. Is it on the homepage by link or in one of the books. Yes, it may sound shallow, but attractiveness is important to me, not the most, but it is important. Maybe you are suggesting that that is the real reason I have been willing to put up with her behaviour for so long.

Yes, I have started to stand up like a man and haven't backed down one bit, but i am being calm and rational about it. Yea, no woman wants to be married to a wimp who doesn't stand up for himself.

As to what my sister said, I really didn't have a good response. She is giving me a lot of advice, but it mostly seems to be directed towards making me "see the light, and get a divorce from a toxic person who is incapable of telling the truth."
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/07/08 04:45 PM
SWW,

Marshmallow is taking you through a real "gut check" exercise that is very healthy. Stay with the process, get clear and take committed action.

Good job!

As for your sister, you can't really take her advice...it will always be one-sided because you are her brother! She will always see the path that takes you away from pain. Even having experienced Infidelity, I did the same thing with my brother when he was going through it. I didn't want him to suffer, that's just how we sisters are.
thanks onlyUcan,

I know and i need it. I had the most disturbing dream I have ever had in my life this morning. I had a flight to go meet my W, and at every layover for some reason I would get off the flight to do something. When i would return the plane would be gone. I would go into a stark raving panic each time and beg the airline people to help me, which they did, but when i would get to the next city i did it again. again panic, but it would work out. When I reached my W's home city there she was. We sat down together waiting on the bags talking pleassantly.

She looked like she was glowing white, like an angel smiling and said she was tired and I rubbed her neck and stroked her hair. She smiled at me and closed her eyes while i stroked her hair, her still glowing white. The bags started to come out and I said hold on, I'll get our stuff when she said, "that's ok, I am staying at the Wyndham downtown and I already have my stuff." I asked why? She said it was closer to her friend " name's" house from High School. My stomach dropped 100 stories in my dream and I woke up and had to go to work.

I know this isn't a psych analysis center, so I prob should'nt have told that. I may be thinking and dreaming irrationally, but I continue to act rationally, plan A'ing but 180'ing too.

I'll post again when I have something to say that's actually relevent to the topic at hand.

Oh yes, and if you all want to collectively toss me off this website due to this "dream" post, I won't like, but couldn't blame you. Gotta go catch a flight back to DC.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/07/08 05:04 PM
Quote
you are right. I need to take the EN test. Is it on the homepage by link or in one of the books. Yes, it may sound shallow, but attractiveness is important to me, not the most, but it is important. Maybe you are suggesting that that is the real reason I have been willing to put up with her behaviour for so long.

LINK TO QUESTIONAIRE

No, it's not shallow.

It's an emotional need.

And yes, I think that is how you could stay in love w/ her even though she was love busting you.


Quote
Yes, I have started to stand up like a man and haven't backed down one bit, but i am being calm and rational about it. Yea, no woman wants to be married to a wimp who doesn't stand up for himself.

Exactly what you want to do more of.

Stand up to her w/o being a bully or love busting.

Women can't love a man they doesn't respect.

Quote
As to what my sister said, I really didn't have a good response. She is giving me a lot of advice, but it mostly seems to be directed towards making me "see the light, and get a divorce from a toxic person who is incapable of telling the truth."

That might be the direction you will need to go in.

But, you need info to be able to evaluate what you're dealing w/ here.

Is it an A? A drug addiction? A seriously flawed person?

Hire that PI to help you figure this out.

Also, when your W fell in love w/ you back in college,you must have been meeting her top ENS, which DID NOT include FS.

What were they?

They haven't changed.













Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/07/08 05:26 PM
I HIGHLY recommend that you get the books, His Needs Her Needs, as well as, Surviving an Affair.

You can order them on CDs too.
I think that your dreams are COMPLETELY relevant to your situation. It is a way that your mind can try to organize the thoughts it has. I'm not a psychiatrist, but maybe you feel like you "get off the plane" every time you have to leave your WW to return to work and you are sick with panic trying to get back to her. Maybe you feel like your WW is calm because she is comfortable with what she is doing..."staying at the hotel" with her friend.

When I was in the VERY beginning, I dreamt that my WH admitted to me that our second child was not mine but actually belonged to OW. Obviously, this was impossible as I gave birth to him. But I think my mind was working out the details of what parts of my life were things that I still "owned" and what parts OW had "stolen" from me.

Give your dreams some credit. They can sometimes help you to review your thoughts in a metaphoric way.

I wanted to mention beauty as an EN. When you read His Needs, Her Needs you will see that it isn't shallow. I had always thought that my Hs need for an attractive W was his immaturity. I have learned that it meets an EMOTIONAL NEED for him and is no less important than MY need for affection or conversation. To qualify one emotional need as more appropriate than another is unfair. You are ENTITLED to YOUR ENs. Don't feel ashamed if one of them is an attractive spouse.

I HIGHLY recommend you take the EN Questionnaire. You might even be able to "guess" some of your WWs answers, but it will be enlightening to YOU to see what things are REALLY important for your emotional happiness.

AND HIRE THE PI!!! You need to KNOW. I spent two years not knowing and it was the most self-destructive two years of my entire life.
Posted By: Carlee Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/08/08 02:13 AM
Dear SWW,

Wow! I am in awe of the great advice you are receiving here. How supportive of OnlyU, Marsh and HTM to share their hard-earned wisdom.

I also wanted to comment on physical attractiveness as an EN. As a woman, I've also always thought it was "shallow." I saw it as more of a "guy thing," that many men only cared about looks.

I've now learned that there are plenty of women that have that as a primary EN. It's really no surprise. We live in a society that places a great deal of importance on physical appearance, and a media that bombards with images that portray unrealistic standards of beauty.

I hope you fill out the ENQ soon. You will discover so much about yourself, your motivations, and your marriage, all of which will be enormously helpful. Information is power!

As I close, I will admit that I take pride in having a handsome husband. I wouldn't call it a primary EN, but it sometimes give me great satisfaction. Color me "shallow," too. ;-)

Stay strong, and keep posting!

Carlee
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/08/08 04:03 AM
Dreams are a natural sign of your process.

Never think that you aren't posting something that is relevant. We are your support team. Everything is relevant.

I was thinking that maybe you could copy and past the EN questionnaire into a Word doc so that there was no sign of MB on it and test the waters with your WW next weekend and see if she wants to fill it out. As long as she seems to be staying on this path of cooking for the kids, staying in, etc., I think it would be a good thing to do with your Plan A. It shows that you are taking your R seriously and taking steps to improve it.

Thanks Carlee,

I sure am getting good advice, and I am taking it too! Taking the ENQ and sticking with the plan. PI but Plan A.

There are times when I wonder whether this is all worth it though. Called WW to wish her Happy Anniversary, even though I felt a little strange doing it, I thought about it and felt go ahead and call, even though she prob doesnt want to hear about it right now. I ended up leaving a message, told her she was special to me.

She responded with an email that her phone was off while being charged and would call back later. She has been calling me frequently however.

It must be nicer to call someone who listens to her for a change and doesn't take the bait to engage in a fight, or, oh yeah, she needs money too. Oh well...we do the best we can!
onlyUcan,

I am printing it out (ENQ) for her and taking it home. If she seems amenable I may give it to her ask her to fill it out. Might be too early though in her current mood...
Well,

got PI locked in for the weekend while I am providing "child care" for the kids, really biting my nails here, want to find out, but nervous.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/11/08 02:02 PM
You're moving back home this weekend, right?
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/11/08 02:06 PM
In reality when your cell needs charging, you can plug it in and TALK ON IT while it is plugged in!

How stupid does she think you are!?

Does she think you "can't tell" that when you call and her cell rings, she is busy boinking some guy or out drinking at some bar and does not want to answer her phone????? GEEZE!
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/11/08 02:08 PM
Good going, getting the PI. Now you will know. For sure.
Sure am Marsh,

My home, my castle. Got a lot planned with the kids too. Fun stuff, fishing, swimming, boating, golf etc. Gonna be fun.

Stellakat,

I know, I am nervously hoping that we hit paydirt this weekend. She'll be out a lot I am sure. Of course I left 350 bucks in the old joint checking acct for a few days to make sure nothing bounced, you guessed it, wiped out by WW. Oh well, it's the last time, acct now closed.

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/11/08 08:12 PM
Good man, SWW!

Does she know you're moving home?
Marshmallow,

she sure does. Wasn't enthused or angry, just accepting. She'll be standoffish I am sure and maybe sleep on the couch, but in torture mode am sure she'll dress sexy as heck and go out till all hours.
Posted By: Aphelion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/11/08 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
I left 350 bucks in the old joint checking acct for a few days to make sure nothing bounced, you guessed it, wiped out by WW.

Sheesh. You told her what you were doing; you told her the family was going on a budget. She reacts, she settles down a bit and then she wipes out the balance anyway.

WW behavior if ever there was such a thing, for sure.

You certainly do have your work cut out for you.

With prayers,

PS: I still think there is recreational drug use, too.
Aphelion,

On the drug thing (i'll prob show my naivete) what kind of drugs? I mean coca*ne she would be all wired, pot would be red-slit eyes, others would make her pupils dilate. I just don't know, but I really suspect you are right.

Wonder what kind it would be that would allow you to show little symptoms and come home and go to sleep?
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/11/08 09:19 PM
As I am unfortunately learning from my DD, "meth" is one that they can still seem to be fully operating. frown
Posted By: Aphelion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/11/08 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
On the drug thing (i'll prob show my naiveté) what kind of drugs? I mean coca*ne she would be all wired, pot would be red-slit eyes, others would make her pupils dilate. I just don't know, but I really suspect you are right.

Wonder what kind it would be that would allow you to show little symptoms and come home and go to sleep?
Many kinds. Prescription maybe. Red eye is not always true.

Do an isearch. Note that most sites are for identifying use in teens, though.

It’s the behavior and $ cues in your W's case. But I am no expert. Been through it with a couple of family members is all. They acted like your W seems to be acting in the early stages.

With prayers.
Aphelion,

I'll do the isearch. I will say if mw WW is doing crystal meth, all bets are off! Everything.

I am not going to jump to conclusions however. PI goes on duty this weekend, we'll wait and see. Oh yeah, that's tomorrow night.
Well,

I don't need the PI anymore! I have her old cellphone that she gave to me when she switched phones. I was in my room today and noticed that when i started typing something in it would not only fill out the word, but if i just pushed the forward key it would start filling in the whole sentence word by word.

I had always suspected she was infatuated with a guy named charlie. used to talk to my sister about him all the time about how cute and funny he was. I was always suspicious.

Well I called "our friend" Stephanie and she confirmed thatit wa weird that when she was out with my WW a few months ago she had two cell phones and a call was coming in she said from charlie. She asked howoften she talked to charlie and she said he was a friend and how funny he was.

Anyway, when i started typing instuff and noticed how it was filling in words and sentences, i found some stuff that was not smolong gun but incriminatory. So i thought what would a person say having an affair. I knew WW would never use a really crude word like pu**y so i started typing, "my crotch..."

it filled the sentence out word by word, one at a time:

"My crotch is sore clear up to my stomach. Strong effort Charlie!"

I leave for home tomorrow. Havent said a word except for here and steph and sister. Not sure if even confronting heris what to do. cant think. i knew, its just hard to know for sure. i don't know if i want to continue.
Posted By: iam Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 01:55 AM
I'm so sorry SWW.

Why do things like this have to happen?

My prayers are with you.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 02:01 AM
I'm so sorry, SWW.

It is recommended that you not make any life changing decisions for at least 6 months after DDay.

Do you know Charlie's last name? Is he married? Do you know his family? You'll need this intel in order to expose the A.

And you really need to get another job where you can be home every night.
Remember (I know it is hard to think through the pain) that you have just been through a HUGE TRAUMA. Do not make any big decisions yet. Just wait.

If your mind isn't clear enough by the weekend, maybe you could stay the night with a friend before going home. Just don't go in with the pain in control.

Do you want to try to save your M? If you do, then you need to make sure that you have your ducks in a row...

First, irrefutable evidence of the A. I think that the text is probably good enough. It would be hard to explain away, although I bet she'll try. When you tell her, you need to be ready for her to explode and deny.

Second, be ready to expose the affair to everyone who might help put pressure on your WW to end it. Do you know anything about Charlie? Maybe the PI could work on that part.

Third, be ready for a great Plan A. You want to make the affair uncomfortable and your marriage comfortable. You want your WW to realize that the A is NOT the best choice.

I am SO SORRY to hear that you are going through this. I hate to say it, but I think that knowing for sure is almost easier than just suspecting...it makes you feel less crazy and gives you a chance to make real decisions.

Keep posting here. You are going to have a HUGE range of emotions to get through and the people here can help.

(((SWW)))
do iknow him hell yeah he is a predator 35 yr old that have hated for a long time. ww knows this. and dont give me any crap about revenge affair. this is horrible! i think ia heve done pretty freaking well not blowing my stack and keeping it to just a couple of people.
why the hell would i want to be some doormat and even try to make this work? why should i do it when she is still lying? what kind of hell do i need to put mself thru?
my crotch is sore to my stomach, solid effort charlie? and just go home and live my life the guy whose wife screwed a friend who still hangs out in our broader social circle. like a puss*? + dont know what to do except drink...
plan a. you have got to be kidding. i have no idea what i want but plan aint it. from this board i have just enough patience to hold on right now and not say a freaking word. what a lying who*e. to sleep with a person we all know. no to cheat on me at all!!! i cant think right now. i wont sleep. what do i do tomorrow? i .....
Posted By: Tyk Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 01:30 PM
yup, its a terrible feeling finding out you've been betrayed. I remember when I first got enough evidence to make it really undeniable to myself. Even though I already had very strong suspicions, it was still like being kicked in the balls. Try to realize that the new evidence only confirms what you already knew. It seems like it makes it more "real" but it doesn't.

Anyhow, been there man, it sucks.
Posted By: Krazy71 Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 03:00 PM
SWW,

I just read through the entire thread.

I know how pissed off you are.

Pissed off doesn't even begin to describe the feeling, actually.

It's HATRED. Not "I hate it when I stub my toe" or "I hate Mondays", but real hatred. I think many people go through their lives without ever knowing what it really feels like. Now you know.

Me? I nearly killed two people on d-day. I spent a good amount of time figuring out how to kill OM and get away with it, and I think I actually came up with a solid plan that only bad luck could thwart.

Thinking about being there, standing over him, as he realizes what has happened to him and he draws his last breath, nearly gives me wood. Even now.


Do not break the law. You know how these things go...the poor sap who DESERVES to exact revenge on another person ends up in prison, while the scumbag who should be run over by a f_cking steamroller ends up high-fiving his attorney in court.

Since you know who the guy is, drag his name through the mud as much as you can. Tell his family, friends, and ESPECIALLY his co-workers, supervisors, etc.

I know that not all military officers are Rambo all the time, but I would imagine that having a military officer wanting a piece of your [censored] would be a little scary. You've gotta know lots of people...guys that would gladly rough OM up if you gave them the nod. OM should know this if he has a brain at all.

Let him know that you know.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 03:43 PM
SWW,

I am a pro-marriage person and I have to tell you that in my gut I don't think that your WW will ever change. That may seem unfair, but at a minimum, you need to go to a DARK PLAN B while you contemplate what to do next, potentially a divorce.

She needs some serious help and I think this is a lifetime of behavior that may never change. You need to protect yourself and protect your children. How quickly can you get a job to keep you in the house with your kids??

So sorry that you found that on her cell phone, but glad you got some answers. My gut also tells me that it's not just "Charlie". He fulfilled a need that she had while acting out, but there are probably lots of "Charlie's" out there based on how you have described her behavior. I'm shocked that her phone filled in the entire sentence. I've never heard of a phone that does that. Only words one at a time if you begin to type them. What a shocker!

Please don't do anything that will jeopardize your own safety and the future of your children with their father. But do take action and again, sorry if this seems like it bypasses MB principles, but I truly believe that you need to end your Plan A efforts and move forward with B and decide about D.

Be well my friend!!

SWW,

It sounds like you are getting good advice here. Only you know what you want...whether or not there is anything left to fight for in your M. We are all outsiders.

You are not going to be seen as a p*ssy if you decide to work on your M. Most people that I have met see the act of recovery as an act of strength. It is easier to walk away. With that said, I don't want you to think that you SHOULD try to recover, just that it is an option.

Exposing the A is something that you can do regardless of your choice about recovery or divorce. But make sure that whatever you do, it keeps you in a healthy light. It is much harder for a man to keep his kids than a woman (sad but true) so you want to make sure that all of your actions speak to your commitment to the safety and well-being of your children. THEY are the important part. Don't let your emotions steal them from you.

Good luck. Keep posting.
My H is a vet and he mentioned to me that you have access to mental health in the military. Maybe talking with someone, even off-base, would be helpful to you. That way you can kind of get your thoughts in order before you confront your WW.

Just a thought.
Posted By: Aphelion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 06:20 PM
SWW,

Keep the PI going. You need additional genuine incontrovertable hard evidence. Yeah, you know what you need to know now, but you also want intel she cannot spin or deny. Makes it a lot easier on you later wnen you confront and expose.

Also, pleeeeze consider calling the MB councelling center. They will tell you want you need to know right now and what you need to do right now.

I tend to agree if your WW has always been this way it may be impossible for her to change.

Your current long term goal should be keeping primary custody of your children, no matter what. Document, document, document.

With prayers,
Posted By: Aphelion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Thinking about being there, standing over him, as he realizes what has happened to him and he draws his last breath, nearly gives me wood. Even now.
I can't help it. This will not leave me alone until I write it down. SWW could also say, "Sorry, Charlie!"

Posted By: Krazy71 Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Aphelion
Originally Posted by Krazy71
Thinking about being there, standing over him, as he realizes what has happened to him and he draws his last breath, nearly gives me wood. Even now.
I can't help it. This will not leave me alone until I write it down. SWW could also say, "Sorry Charlie!"



I like the idea of OM's untimely death being capped off by a bad pun from a 1970s tuna commercial. laugh
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 06:51 PM
Reading your description of your wife's behaviors - her years of history ... I couldn't help but think she may be borderline:

From another site .....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A person with this disorder will also often exhibit impulsive behaviors and have a majority of the following symptoms:

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)
Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
Chronic feelings of emptiness
Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Does your WW have a majority of these symptoms? Not just now, but over the years?

If you think this shoe fits your wife - Marriage Building concepts will not work.

If you think she might be borderline - contact a mental health worker and ask questions.

Children raised in a home with a borderline have lots of difficulties .... and this should be your major concern if you think your wife may have this illness.

Best of luck.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 06:58 PM
http://www.bpdcentral.com/images/Ihateyou.pdf

Here's an article on Borderline Personality Disorder that could shed some light as well.

I agree with Pepperband that if she does have a mental illness, MB principles will not work for you.

SWW, get some counseling for yourself!! You need all the support you can get right now!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by onlyUcan
I agree with Pepperband that if she does have a mental illness, MB principles will not work for you.

I have a copy of Randi Kregeris's book, Stop Walking on Eggshells, it's very good. The book helped me with my work.

Borderlines can be quite interesting and charming - as long as they think it is useful for them to remain so. They can turn on a dime and it is such a quick transformation it does not seem possible.

The link you gave is very good.

Pep
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/13/08 07:17 PM
Same book, on my nightstand, dealing with my DD.

SWW needs all the resources he can get for this situation. Glad you brought it up!



Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/14/08 04:56 PM
SWW,

Just checking in! Hope you're doing ok out there!!
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/14/08 05:01 PM
I am sorry for your pain. Your wife has been walking all over you now for years. I think you are finally ready to see WHAT she is and what her character is. So, hold it together, gather all the evidence needed, etc and walk carefully, slowly, and firmly toward divorce.

I do not think there is any use confronting a woman like that. She has proven for years she is that way and wont change. It is deep in her personality to lie and cheat. Who knows why......


But you can do this! You can handle this wrench in your life! You are strong now! You have faced the truth!
Posted By: Carlee Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/15/08 12:27 AM
Dear SWW,

I checked in to read the thread and find out how you were doing. I am so sorry about the recent developments. You certainly deserve far better.

Please use EVERY resource available to you (i.e.; counseling, PI, MBB, legal advice, etc.) to get through this terrible time. You WILL get through it, I promise.

My sister is also struggling her husband's infidelity. She's been abandoned with three children. She has started taking antidepressants, and it's helped her cope. It's something to consider if you feel really overwhelmed.

You are a GOOD man. I'm praying for you!

Stay strong, and try to have a good Father's Day.

Carlee
well friends i am in ned of help. she as much admitted it. said we need to talk. cried for an hour to a mutual frend but friend said she sounds sorry but not completely ready to give it up. marsh you will be mad at me, but after finding out i could not face her. i have the kids at my dads house.

she wants to get together today to talk. i just dont think i am prepared mentally or emotionally. all i seem to do is smile and then cry. if she lies i will lose it. help!
The question is not "is she sorry", but "will she break off this affair and QUIT lying to you for good and NEVER again party alone at nite, be selfish, lie to you, or have affairs ever again.

I don't think she will quit all lying, partying, manipulating of you, and having affairs. Given her history.

Here are some options for the "talk" she wants with you.

1. Postpone it until you think more about what you want.
2. Have a trusted friend go with you
3. Map out a script and decide what YOU want to say.
4. Demand she meet you at a MC office.
5. Take a tape recorder.
6. Wait a while until you are able to handle it.
7. Wait....so that you are less vulnerable and she can no longer manipulate you.

There are many more options for you here. Dont feel you have to be rushed into meeting with her. That sk*** can wait. She did it to you big time. It will give her patience to have to suffer and wait. For you, that is...if you EVER want to see her again, !
Stella is exactly right. Take your time on this. You need to settle down and realize that this is not the end of the world.

While it may feel good to think about offing the OM, the result will be that YOU will be in the clinker for the rest of your life.

And if you let your wife bait you into a fight, you may be restrained from being home and seeing your kids.

This is a battle, and you need to prepare.
I'm not mad at you.

I just want you to put yourself in the best possible position.

I agree w/ Stellakat, you need to postpone the talk.

You need time.

And she needs to be thrown off her game by being told to wait.

In the meantime, can you get to a doctor and get ADs?



SWW,

How long are you home? Do you stay home for a week at a time or just on the weekends?

I can see why you went to your dad's house since you haven't been living in the house each day her energy is permeating it. I'm sure your dad's house feels much more welcome and inviting and comforting. Just be careful to have a plan that does not cause you to lose your house (if you care about that) and your children.

Prepare, prepare, prepare. Document, document, document.

Make her wait until you are 100% (or as close to it) emotionally ready to have this first talk and I would suggest a mediator too (perhaps a relative or family friend).

Determine what plan you are going to take at this point. Have your options ready in your mind.

Good luck my friend! We're pulling for you!
I will pray for you, SWW. This is a difficult time, I know. I carried knowledge of FWW’s adultery around for almost 4 months before I could bring myself to confront her. I almost didn't survive it. I developed a number of stress related health problems. Some of which have not completely gone away even four years later.

And when I finally did gird my loins and talk to her she did indeed lie. Lots. If I hadn’t the proof I think I might have believed these lies of hers too.

Your WW has been living like this for a long time. She will not change easily, if at all. Be prepared for a very long haul, and even a D. But do it on your timeline and in your own and your children's best interests.

Document everything. And if she wants to separate (to find herself, or carry on her A some more, or in anger or for any reason whatsoever) make sure you stay in the house with your children and she is the one to leave.

With prayers,
SWW,

Give Dr. Harley a call and ask him for advice.

you are all right. i am going to wait till i am ready. she is calling me ten times a day and calling our girl friends and they re calling me too. though i have to say not really in support of her. just to say maybe u should let her talk. u are all correct. i have kinda figured it out that it couldnt be just one guy. if charlie was doing her an then got a serious girlfriend then who has she been with the past few months?

unless he has been cheating on his girlfriend with my ww. maybe thats why the first words out of her mouth when she talked to stephanie were that she had to call charlie and girlfriend.

dont worry stellakat. i would never do anything to land in the clink. it just seems like a pleasant fantasy. i dont need ad's i am doing a pretty good job with scotch although now i need to slow that down too and come back to earth.

she wants to pick up the kids tomorrow and take them home. i aint ready for that.
Maybe rather than fight about her taking the kids, play it her way. Suck it up and tell her that you are sure she's going through a lot right now and it might be easier for her to think/regroup if she didn't have to worry about the kids. Suggest that the kids stay with you at your dad's. Make it sound like it's for her benefit...it might avoid unnecessary trouble.

You don't want to "refuse" to let her have the kids because that might look bad in the law's eyes, but I totally understand why you want to keep your children with you. I would be worried that if she has the kids with her and she is in so much turmoil, she may use them against you.

You know, scotch works to a point, but as you start to "relax" into the pain, you'll want to be sober. Remember, all that you learn about your WW and her activities is good...it is truth...it hurts but it is better for you to know than not.

And every new thing that you hear (I'm guessing you'll learn more over the next few weeks/months), is good because you KNOW it now. Not knowing doesn't change the fact that it happened. It just changes what you are able to do about it.

Keep going.
SWW,

Put down the scotch, and get your butt to the doctors.

You have kids to think about.

Many BS go on ADs and they certainly don't eff w/ your ability to think the way booze does.

How do you know what condition your home is in? Is there food in the fridge? Is the house still a wreck?

Your kids need you, SWW.


Quote
i have kinda figured it out that it couldnt be just one guy. if charlie was doing her an then got a serious girlfriend then who has she been with the past few months?

unless he has been cheating on his girlfriend with my ww. maybe thats why the first words out of her mouth when she talked to stephanie were that she had to call charlie and girlfriend.

Another reason to have allowed the PI to do his work.

You could have had alot of questions answered.

and good intel
spoken like a good 1630 if u know what that means. going to talk to her or rather listen tomorrow. ill let u guys know. thank you all.
Quote
spoken like a good 1630 if u know what that means.

Nope, I don't.

Quote
going to talk to her or rather listen tomorrow.

Didn't you just say you were going to wait to talk to her?

What's your plan? What is it you want to say to her? Hope to accomplish?

You say, I'm going to move home. Then you don't.

You say, I'm going to hire a PI/I hired a PI and then don't. Or canceled it. ???

You are all over the place.

Please don't meet w/ her until you have a plan. Otherwise she will be calling the shots.

You have suffered a severe trauma, you need to get your footing, get a plan, and work it.








Originally Posted by sickwithworry
spoken like a good 1630 if u know what that means. going to talk to her or rather listen tomorrow. ill let u guys know. thank you all.

I'd guess a 1630 is a military occupational specialty... that's why I like the Navy way... just call 'em what they are instead of a number! Is a 1630 an old intellegence MOS?

Anyway, what really matters is that you heed the advice you are being given. Have a plan before you talk (or listen) to her. You know that emotional decisions are not likely the best decisions, and you will be making a lot of emotional decisions if you don't process and regroup before dealing with her.
Yes, your wife did not turn bad overnight. She has been that way for years and years. You put up with it for some reason. Now you are seeing how toxic your wife really is. She is pushing you to the limit and then expecting you to come running back to her no matter what bad things she does to you. Maybe now life is handing you a "get out of jail free" card. You have to look at this....fact.

Would you marry your wife over again if you knew what she would be like? If not, then act accordingly. Take that "get out of jail free" card and start to finally live your precious life!
How are you doing SWW? Better I hope.

It is difficult to remember your objectives (think alligators and a partially drained swamp) when in the middle of this crap. Maybe write them down so you have them in front of you when you need them.

Near the very top of the list should be working for what is best for your children. I guarantee it will be not good for them at all to be exposed to your WW’s lifestyle. Keep this objective in mind as you go forward with what is also best for you.

Say, it occurs to me, depending on your level of clearances, if you separate from your WW you will have to report a change in martial status to your security officer. Don’t buy yourself career trouble down the line by forgetting important things like this.

Your WW will continue to gaslight you - more than she already has been. If her mouth is moving, you know she is lying. If her mouth is not moving you know she is lying by omission.

Continue to gather Intel. Keep the PI, and keep your attorney up to date.

Prepare to expose the adultery. Check with us on exposure details. It's scarey.

Oh, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, call the Harleys.

(Reminds me, a year or so ago teenage DS came across my stack of old LPs. He asked me what they are. I pulled my, at one time, very high-end turntable out of the attic, we hooked it up and he listed to the Beatles white album. He was amused, lol.)

With prayers,
well too late marsh. she and i had an appt today at three thrity. she was too busy next door helping the neighbor to make it on time.

she showed up and we started talking. then i shifted the converation to where it needed to be. i knew it would happen. it is all my fault. never an out and out confessiom but respones to my statements of you were sleeping with charlie garnered u drove me to this. i am apparently a horrible person. i was patient and decided not to fight back just to hear the truuth.

i told her that i might not have been the best husband but nothing justifies spreading for him. she fought back. military i abandoned her etc. etc. etc. i think its done.

i can tell shes miserable but i think its what she wants. so much anger. i am going to go silent now.
yeah marsh. you are always right. i just dont seem to listen.
yeah stella. she basically told me me cheated then told me how bad i was. tehm told me she was still free to be doing whatever she wanted and told me that if i wanted anything to happen for us i would have to be the one to make it happen.
I am sorry your wife is that way. She gives all us women a bad name. To me, she sounds like a real creep. Protect yourself man and get evidence of all the cheating. Good luck. Dont believe a word she says either.
Posted By: Tyk Re: wellRe: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/18/08 12:11 PM
This is typical WS behavior, nothing unusual in it at all.

There is a plan for dealing with this and turning it around if you want to. Or just accept that nothing can be done and move on with your life if you'd rather.

Point being that nothing she says or does right now really amounts to much as far as reality goes. She's saying and doing what WSs do, that's all.
SWW,

Sorry about your D-day.

I mentioned it before... Eat, Sleep, stay healthy. That a full plate.

Make sure the right people in your command know whats going on. Don't try working this alone.

I was amazed at the support I received from my command. I was 3 months from retirement.

You have or will soon have your 20 years? Remaining M or D is your choice. But stablity for the kids is important.

Speaking from experience, my two boys made it to teens with a dad only around 50% of the time. My daughter has me home every day.

The grass is greener after retirement!

If you'd like, give me a location(s) and field(s) of interest. I might be able to help job search in the contract world. email if you prefer.

Again, stay healthy, see the Doc.

-JKT
SWW,

Hang in there my friend. You found this site for a reason and you'll make it through, whatever you decide to do.

How long are you home? When do you go back out of town?

Read up on Plan A and Plan B from the link below. Put some things down in writing on what you want to do going forward.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Stay focused. Reach out and know that you are not in this alone.

Listen to us, SWW. Your WW is sounding very normal (for a lying cheating addict still in the middle of her addiction). Do not take anything she says as hard truth. Or personal. This kind of thing is all she can say at this time. All us BH heard the same kind of blame shifting.

That being said, you need to protect yourself and your children. She has been this way for a long, long time. She will not defog easily, if at all.

See your atty, again if necessary. Know what your legal options are and what things to avoid doing at all cost.

Then call the MB counseling center, or a local MC that agrees with MB methods.

Then expose the affair. You want your wife back? Properly expose her affair!

And always take care of your children. You need to be the sane parent now. They need you more than ever.

With prayers,
Originally Posted by Justkeeptrying
SWW, if you'd like, give me a location(s) and field(s) of interest. I might be able to help job search in the contract world. email if you prefer. -JKT

Same here. If you are retiring from the military I may be able to help too.

With prayers,
to everyone thank u from the bottom of my heart. yes i see this is a process now. i am going to ic tomorrow. amazingly enough good things have come from this. old friends have been in contact and i guess te old saying your fortis are tough is true. i have felt really good being priviledged to be able to listen to two other bh's going thru the same thing.

the affair is exposed. ww knows it is hitting the streets. shes still playing it cool though. my sister was so livid she told everyone. then called crying and apologized. i told her not to worry.

i am home thru sunday. will see ic tomorrow and tell ww to come back over for another talk wherein she must come totally clean. like dr h says i need t know all. i dont know what will happen but i am sure from the wisdom i have goten from yall it wont be the truth.

i can go thru the procss though. let her clear from the fog. with me at home it is much better and so i need to be home three days a week. i think it is still going on though despite his other girlfriend. she actually defended him when i told her he had done this before.
Quote
she actually defended him when i told her he had done this before.

Are you talking about your WW or Charlie's GF? Have you exposed to her as well?

I'm glad to hear that you have a support group forming all around you, that is awesome. Good for your sister, the more that know the harder it will be for your WW to hide it or lie about it.

Quote
tell ww to come back over for another talk wherein she must come totally clean. like dr h says i need t know all.

This is a common desire for all BS. It usually doesn't work out the way that you want it to. She is not rational. Be sure not to set yourself up for failure.

So is your plan to work on Plan A and attempt to R your M?

How soon will you be home 3 days per week?

Have you read up on Plan A and Plan B and how long to do both, etc.?

Here's a link:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Emphasizing this part from the link below:
Quote
Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.


Have you purchased Surviving An Affair?

Keep in touch and our prayers are with you!!
Good for you. I'm glad things are starting to settle a little. Be prepared for it to get rough the minute you think it's calming down. They don't call it a roller coaster for nothing.

If Charlie's GF defended him, she's just in denial. Many spouses of the OP don't believe it when the A is exposed. You have proof. Share it with her. But don't expect a warm welcome. She may just not be there yet. She has to come to grips with it on her own. The most you can do is expose it.

My brother reacted the opposite to your sister. He was so angry that he didn't talk to anyone. And he told me that he never wanted any of his wife's family to know. He's ashamed...like I CHOSE to be a part of this. Whatever...that's his problem, I guess.

Keep reading, keep educating yourself, keep posting. You'll make it through.

HTM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
the affair is exposed.
To who (whom?)

How?

Exposure needs to be done carefully and to specifically selected people - sometimes in a specific order (not shotgun by an angry sister.) This is important so you minimize unnecessary fallout and do not create unnecessary obstacles to recovery later.

Of course, if you have decided you want out then enthusiastically expose to any and all, with my blessings.

With prayers,
onlyUcan,

WW defended the OM, saying it was not just his fault. She is worried about exposure. I will post last part of the story in a minute.
HTM and Aphelion,

A was only exposed to people who could have an influence on her but let me tell you, as Paul Harvey would say, "The rest of the story."

Over the 9 days I was home saw WW everyday. She is wearing her wedding rings, cleaned house and is staying at home, even when I am gone the kids remarked.

She would come over nearly every morning to talk and I believe she had a noticeable sense of relief that she had finally told me. I told you all that the first meeting she denied angrily, then progressed at each 1.5-2 hr "session" to come clean. Our last she finally really spilled her guts. Y'all tell me what it sounds like. I'll have to paraphrase:

She basically said she felt abandoned by me, that her father was an alcoholic who nearly died of it and that she wanted me to quit drinking forever. When I agreed to compromise she felt I loved a bottle more than her. She said she spent the last year plus running our business and I had been no help and had gotten angry when she would complain about being overwhelmed. She said I never listened to her without criticizing her.

She has valid points, I have been a terrible listener, for thos familiar with Myers Briggs I am an INTJ and am logical, rational and want too fix things. She is an INFP and needs to talk and feel validated.

Anyway she says that in March che decided it was over, but wasn't totally positive. She was having drinks with Charlie and another group and when they left she went back to his place. I asked her what she was thinking. She said that's it, she wasn't and it was stupid. She said they starting making out on the couch and it was very fast. She said she or he never even took her top off. I was incredulous. She made it sound like a lab experiment. She said they used protection.

I said, so he just unbuttoned your pants, pulled em off and put on a condom, how could you have been excited enough for it to work, she said it was a problem at first. I asked her what was going thru her mind while he was on top of her. She said she was thinking how did i ever get to this. When he was done she said she was all freaked out and got up got dressed and left in a hurry.

I said uh...ok, what about the second time. She said it went down pretty much the same. It was faster, she said she felt dirty and was thinking of the kids and all. She said she let him finish and got up to leave and he asked what was wrong. she said she told him she had a 14 and 12 yr old at home and what they had done was wrong.

I said if this is true, he used you.

cont. next post
cont from above.

She said I hate to tell u but what makes you think I didn't use him? I did. Said she basically was very angry with me, hated me for being so rude and unsupportive and wanted to see if she could be attracted and satisfied by another man and he was just the guy she picked. She said she liked him at first and thought he was cute, but after she found him very unattractive in that way. She claims not to have had an org*sm, says it was too fast and no foreplay. Second time only 5-7 mins. I said that is the most passionless stale thing I have ever heard. She nodded her head while looking at the ground.

She apologized over and over and said she knew this was like a bullet wound to my heart. That she had hoped it would never be discovered and that she had compartmentalized it in her mind in a box and thrown away the key. She said she had not seen him in 6-8 weeks. That he had texted her something about the Red Sox but she had not replied. I told her he needs to know I know and she needs to do a NC letter. She agreed to do it.

She told me it was like an experiment, to see if the grass was greener on the other side, and it wasn't. But she did say that if it had been, and she discovered that she could be passionate and attracted to him she prob would have filed for D the next day.

She told me that no matter what I had done, I did not deserve this, but that if we wanted to move forward we would have to address all our issues. She also said that she thought it would take awhile for me to get over it, that it had happened to her on a lesser scale and she knew that she had wounded me deeply, but all she could do was keep saying she was sorry.

Aphelion,

Can I email you privately with what I do and the locations you mentioned in your kind offer about contractor jobs. Its unclassified but sensitive. If you are still willing I could send you a resume.

Thanks
SWW,

It sounds like she probably told you what she could. On my second d-day, when H came clean, I kind of realized that he probably had told me all because what he had said was the worst I could imagine. I know that there was speculation as to whether or not Charlie is the only one. He may be.

The way she described your M prior to the A is probably somewhat true, but remember that most WS will re-write history to make their A look more reasonable. The fact that she blames you for not being there and not listening may be true but she is also justifying her actions...not only to you, but to herself. Remember that SHE made the choice to stray. You BOTH have things that need to change...not just you.

It does sound like she's trying.

One question...when was the text that you found written? She says that she has had no contact for 6-8 weeks, but wasn't the text more recent than that? And also, did you tell her how you knew?

Start making plans to spend as much time together as possible. Have her read SAA and HNHN. Start implementing the basic principles. You will be able to tell a lot by how she handles these requests.

Keep going. You're doing ok.
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Can I email you privately with what I do and the locations you mentioned in your kind offer about contractor jobs. Its unclassified but sensitive. If you are still willing I could send you a resume. Thanks
Post your email address here and I will contact you from my work account. Then you delete it.

The sooner the better. I will be out of the office for almost a month starting next week.

Also, I will not be reading here much any more and plan to pretty much stop participating on MB. I am having serious issues with certain, who I consider to be very unethical and not up to the job, mods. (This statement might itself be enough to get your thread edited and locked.) I only saw your post because another MBer emailed me about it this morning.

Originally Posted by sickwithworry
She told me that no matter what I had done, I did not deserve this, but that if we wanted to move forward we would have to address all our issues.

This is a true statement. Especially the second clause. You have work to do too. But your work, believe it or not, can be actually enjoyable.

Originally Posted by sickwithworry
She also said that she thought it would take awhile for me to get over it, that it had happened to her on a lesser scale and she knew that she had wounded me deeply, but all she could do was keep saying she was sorry.
More complicated. She may think she understands what it does to you, and what it will continue to do to you (and you family) for a long time to come, but she doesn’t really, of course. And saying she is sorry isn't the half of it. She has an almost immeasurable amount of hard work she still has to do if she wants to do this right.

Another thing to evaluate – changing careers and/or moving is very stressful all by itself. Do you want to add this to your already full plate right now?

Your wife sounds textbook. Everything unsaid by her about her adultery is probably also textbook. Call the MB counseling center for genuine money well spent help in recovery. If you need short term assistance I am happy to arrange to pay for the session.

With prayers,
hicktownmommy,

I have known this lady for 24 years and I can tell when she is lying, she is not good at it, and when confronted changes her story. As fantastic as it may seem, her whole demeanor seemed to be saying I have lost the will or the ability to lie anymore and here is the horrible truth.

I have been beating myself up for my attitude towards her but you are right, and she freeley admitted NOTHING could justify this. She said she hopes I can forgive her but that she knows g*d will judge her. I told her he would forgive if she just asked, she cried and nodded. She said if she had it to do over again she would never have done it and she feels horrible. She said that if any woman ever told her that she was contemplating doing something like that she would go over and forcibly tie them to a chair until the feeling passes because even though the BS hurts the most by far, she had hurt herself, the OM and possibly one day her children.

It was pretty incredible. In like a day a lot of worry lines began to evaporate from her face. She began smiling and one of her friends called me and said "What happened? I haven't seen her like this in over a year?"

The two of us and kids went for dinner just the four of us friday night and laughed and joked like old times.

I just get a sick feeling she hasn't told me the extent of it yet, and don't know if she is truly done. I just don't know. She claims there were never really any feelings for him specifically and she knew going in if she were to go thru with it it couldn't work out with him. He was like a guinea pig.

She claims he was broken up with his girlfriend for the 2 months during which time it happened. WW is now friends with OM girlfriend, went to see a movie with her and a couple other girls 2 weeks ago. Didn't that make you feel guilty i asked. She said definitely, she felt horrible, but she didn't want them to break up because she was perfect for him and they made a great couple.
Aphelion,

thanks. I will do it in the AM. Due to the sensitivity of where i work i couldnt put it down. I'll post a gmail address in the AM. Anything closer to Florida than Washington DC.

I can afford the Hartleys after next payday, but that is an incredibly generous offer.

Thanks.
Sounds like she is on the right track. It's interesting to me. I wonder if men and women are just different in the emotional part. My F-WH told me that he couldn't apologize at the beginning because it wouldn't mean anything to me. He still hasn't apologized. Your WW started out with apologies. Just interesting.

Brace yourself for little things that she may tell you over the next few weeks. It sounds like she has let a huge burden go. My H described it as relief from a rotting ball in the pit of his stomach. His demeanor changed as well. It's hard when his relief created so much pain for me. But I can understand it.

I tend to agree with Aph on the moving thing. If you can avoid it for awhile and still be with your W enough time each day/week, then I would wait. We are trying to do both at the same time and the stress of moving tends to bleed over into the stress of recovery. It's hard to tell what is creating the stress and the emotions seem to run higher.

So glad to hear that you found time to have fun as a family. Make sure that you are also finding time to have fun as a couple...time together alone where you do NOT talk about the A...you just enjoy each other.
thanks HTM,

I am now the road and air warrior. DC to florida nearly every weekend a month. WW told me that she was so angry at me for not coming home enough, and then, when she told me she wanted a separation I start coming home every weekend. She said that made her angry that it took her having to have a mental breakdown "to get my attention" enough to get me to start payinf attention to her and the kids.

She said again she was sorry but that she thought with the way we seemed to be communicating that there was hope. I told her strangely enough it might be the best thing that ever happened to our marriage. She agreed but was sorry that it went as far as it did.

I do fall back into love busters, like last night I called to her to say we needed a plan for reconciliation right now. That I was really angry at what she had done. She said she knew, that we needed to work together to forgive each other. She said that the whole time she never believed we would ever be divorced, she had been stupid and thought she could hide it forever.

I do thank god for revealing this to me exactly when her did, because if I had not started coming home all the time, even if it made her mad, she would have left I think. She may still, who knows.

As I said I don't think I know the whole truth, maybe like you it'll comeout in drips and drabs.
If you contact me I can possibly help you with work in the Charleston, SC area. It's a little closer than DC. Drop me a line at spamtrap2006@bellsouth.net.
Aph,
Wanted to ditto your comment. I won't copy and paste it, but I'm sure you know what I'm referring to.

Hope you stay.
SWW,

Have you purchased Surviving An Affair? The two of you have alot of work ahead of you, but if you are both committed to Recovery and it's what you truly want, you can overcome this through the resources here at this site.

Remember that this will not change overnight. It takes an average of 2 YEARS to Recover according to those on there that have been in Recovery for some amount of time.

Glad to hear your update. Get your Harley counseling as soon as possible.
SWW...How are you doing?

HTM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Anyway she says that in March che decided it was over, but wasn't totally positive. She was having drinks with Charlie and another group and when they left she went back to his place. I asked her what she was thinking. She said that's it, she wasn't and it was stupid. She said they starting making out on the couch and it was very fast. She said she or he never even took her top off. I was incredulous. She made it sound like a lab experiment. She said they used protection.

I said, so he just unbuttoned your pants, pulled em off and put on a condom, how could you have been excited enough for it to work, she said it was a problem at first. I asked her what was going thru her mind while he was on top of her. She said she was thinking how did i ever get to this. When he was done she said she was all freaked out and got up got dressed and left in a hurry.

I said uh...ok, what about the second time. She said it went down pretty much the same. It was faster, she said she felt dirty and was thinking of the kids and all. She said she let him finish and got up to leave and he asked what was wrong. she said she told him she had a 14 and 12 yr old at home and what they had done was wrong.

I said if this is true, he used you.

cont. next post


Just wanted to tell you that there is no way you are getting the truth and I am sure you know it.

Didn't you find a text message where she said she was sore all the way from her crotch to her belly button? How does that jive with her story? It sounds like there must have been a lot more to it than that unless by that she means that he is very "Gifted" physically. I can't tell from your text message that you posted either way something does not sound right.

If you want to accept the story and blame that is ok and up to you but understand you are not getting the truth. My wife lied like heck even though I had video proof.

Your wife had been doing a lot for a long time and if you just accept what she says I am afriad you are heading for a long life of lying and using you. I am sorry if this is not the positive upbeat message but I just wanted to make sure you get both sides.

I can understand people wanting to stay married but not at any cost. Just understand that she will never just tell you the whole truth and it sounds like her WW behavior has been going on for a long time. But whatever happens I wish you the best.
Originally Posted by IHadEnough
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Anyway she says that in March che decided it was over, but wasn't totally positive. She was having drinks with Charlie and another group and when they left she went back to his place. I asked her what she was thinking. She said that's it, she wasn't and it was stupid. She said they starting making out on the couch and it was very fast. She said she or he never even took her top off. I was incredulous. She made it sound like a lab experiment. She said they used protection.

I said, so he just unbuttoned your pants, pulled em off and put on a condom, how could you have been excited enough for it to work, she said it was a problem at first. I asked her what was going thru her mind while he was on top of her. She said she was thinking how did i ever get to this. When he was done she said she was all freaked out and got up got dressed and left in a hurry.

I said uh...ok, what about the second time. She said it went down pretty much the same. It was faster, she said she felt dirty and was thinking of the kids and all. She said she let him finish and got up to leave and he asked what was wrong. she said she told him she had a 14 and 12 yr old at home and what they had done was wrong.

I said if this is true, he used you.

cont. next post


Just wanted to tell you that there is no way you are getting the truth and I am sure you know it.

I agree. Sounds more like she's taken some time to come up with a pretty good story to match what she thinks you know about her adulterous behaviour.
Aphelion,

IHadEnough,

yeah i know, and marriage at any cost is not good enough. I talked to her yesterday and then sent her a lengthy email. I am a better writer than speaker about emotional issues and wanted to keep my thoughts and arguments straight. Here's my email:

WW,

As I said last night I am done. You lied to me, living a double life and having sex with another man for too long. I begged you to tell me the whole truth and maybe we could have gotten past all this. I understand why you wouldn’t want to talk; you did a horrible thing. I just honestly don’t know what’s going on inside you anymore.

This kind of stuff has happened before and it just gets worse every time. Super Bowl you abandoned us at the last minute to go to Tampa and sleep with a bunch of people in a condo. That was a short WW freak out.

This time is way different. It ended up with you screwing another guy many times.

You had what sounds like a schoolgirl crush. You had been flirting with and chasing OM for a long time. He was funny, charming and it was a fun secret sneaking back to his place. You thought it could stay secret forever and you could keep me off balance as long as possible while you did your thing. No wonder he has condoms all over the place.

So when you’re caught you give me some half-baked story it only happened twice, you didn’t even undress, and it wasn’t good. I can read, and that isn’t true. Looking at everything its clear Friend didn’t send that text about some Sea Doo incident. That was from you to him, and the message was, “strong effort dude. Let’s go again.” That isn’t what you say to a guy who climbed on you for 10 mins. and you freak out and leave.

Now you tell me that while you’re sorry, I need to sort out my emotions and you aren’t ready to commit to anything yet, despite the disgusting and horrible things you did. I just need to sit and wait for you to think about it out even though you are the one having sex outside marriage. Well forget it.

I am exhausted with all your deception and sex with other people. You can decide what to tell our kids, your family and our friends but they will all know sooner or later. You will probably opt for the he was horrible routine and drove me to it. Your family might buy it, our friends and kids won’t though. You and you alone can live with the fact that because you thoughtlessly gave away the one thing the two of us had alone together by scr*wing him you wrecked our marriage.

Some of your old friends in town have begged me not to give up, that you desperately need me now, and that your behavior is a cry for help. But I really don’t see how scr*wing other men and then trying to cover it up is a cry for help.

If you had been honest I probably would have would have forgiven you. It’s sad too as now it seems we are turning the corner and the stress is coming off. I have always loved you so much. Yes, I should have nurtured you more, but it didn’t merit this. I would have understood it for what it was; a mid-life, stress induced, freak out detachment from reality affair. I could have swallowed my pride and taken you back and cared for you. Would it have hurt, hell yes! But you’ve treated me with such disrespect and contempt I think it’s too late for that now.

We have a lot of work to do, so let’s try to be civil for the kid’s sake.

cont.

of course i heard nothing since the talk and email, she is silent. She is still in the fog of lies and love.

Hi SWW,

I just read your entire thread and sorry to say that I think she's lying to you now as well.

Don't discount the possibility of drugs, either, as a person does not have to act in a particular manner. I have a lot of experience with addicted daughters and could not tell when they were using or not.

Just remember the facts of how much money she blew, and the condition of the house, as well as no food in the fridge. Sorry, but these facts are more in line with a drug abuser than a person having an affair. Please beware of leaving your kids with her, as although she may not be a drug addict and may not even be using drugs at the moment, drug use can and does bring unsavory people into your life, and they know where she lives.

I hope I'm wrong about all this, but be careful. Protect your children first and foremost. You're the only stable person in their lives right now.
ManInMotion,

Here is what she replied to my email of last night. Tell me your thoughts.

I really don't know how to respond to this. I just got it. You are still the one or I wouldn't have stuck with this through the last few years. I have hurt you beyond what I can imagine and I am sick about it and have no idea how to make it better. I have no idea how to deal with it either. I did not sleep at all last night. Not one minute.

I replied:

what i said is true though, and you have not been honest with me, it was really involved. That is the sticking point. I really don't want to abandon you, but in your current frame of mind it might be the best thing for you. I will not abandon you and the kids financially. get your account set up. you are still in the fog of your affair, may be you can be woken up. sorry you didn't sleep, i slept well for the first time in a long time.

She replied:

I am desperate! I need to fix things and I want to know how. I am going to seek out Kim (good friend, slightly older and solid Christain girl) today. I think she's the only one I can talk to about this and she always seems to have a level, unbiased opinion.

SWW Again: I also just spoke to the Chaplain in my office behind closed doors. He told me if I was going to take this on I was a real champ, but warned it won't be easy. Unless she agrees to make some radical life changes like never going out without you again, no contact with OM, and starts to behave like a responsible parent it won't work. He told me to pray for her but to turn this over for my own sanity. Start jogging again too.
SWW,

What is your plan?

MB teaches two of them that can help you.

Let us know if you want our help working one of them.

Marshmallow

My plan right now is to breathe, breathe. Yes, please HELP!!!

I had absolutely decided to call the D atty today. Now I am going to breathe. I have 2 good friends who went thru this and they are talking to me, or listening rather. It is a funny thing, all I ever wanted was for her to come clean and I thought I would be better. Now that she has basically (not completely) admitted that I was right, it was going on since last fall and I wasn't crazy I am madder than ever! I was in town to see her and she was sneaking off to his place while I was at home taking care of the children! Her children!

My friend told me to breathe, don't call the D atty today, there is no rush. But no serious conversations with WW for a day or 2.

I don't know where to go from here. I called books a million and have Surviving an A on hold for me this afternoon for pickup, but I am more confused now than ever. The intimate parts of my wife's body that I used to love are now filthy thoughts to me. I dont think I can ever trust her again and I don't see how I could ever be intimate with her knowing those parts were in use many many times in all different kind of ways with the biggest jerk on the planet.

Breathe....
SWW,

Breathing is a good idea!

Super sad to say that this site is filled with people that have walked a version of what you are talking about. There is a way to Recover from it, whichever route you choose to take.

Read the book and keep us posted on how you are feeling.

How long are you back out of town again?
SWW,

got it. you can delete it now.

you should have mail too.

Quote
My friend told me to breathe, don't call the D atty today, there is no rush.

That's right.

Don't make any big decisions for at least 6 months.

It's natural to question whether or not you can emotionally get past this. If you can ever forgive her. Ever trust her again. Ect... All natural and very NORMAL. So give yourself a break there. K?

I'm going to advise you as though you do want to recover your M. At any point in time you can change your mind and file for D.

Now...has you WW established NC yet?



You can do it. Your friend is right. Take a couple of days. Imagine yourself having survived a trauma...a huge firefight. You are no less in PTSD than anyone else. Don't make decisions for a few days. Accept that you are going to be a well of emotions that trigger with anything and turn on a dime.

When I found out, I went into a depression...couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, even thought about suicide...it was overwhelming. At the same time, I felt like I finally understood the last year. The lies made sense and I hadn't been crazy.

If you write, journal your emotions. Talk with your friends who have been there. Bolster yourself for the worst as you prepare to fight for your marriage. If your wife can come clean and follow the MB principles, you CAN recover. Many people here have done it. I am only a few months down the road, but I can see the hope for my M that I would never have imagined before.

Your WW has to agree to change completely. Her behaviors have allowed an A. Read about Plan A and work it. Follow the program. It works.
Marshmallow

Probably not on the NC. We are meeting in NC this weekend to take my daughter to camp. I can't think straight. I don't want to see her or talk to her. I haven't thought thru the steps since this morning's non-denial that it was going on for maybe a year. I told her when she admitted to the "small affair" about NC and she said OK. But we were still talking and more was coming out. I know it has to happen but I just don't think I can do it today.

I think if I start laying out the groundrules I am telling her that I am forgiving her as long as she follows this plan. I am not ready to giver her a plan.

Well, I guess I could tell her to send him an email first today (I know his email address so i'll know if it's fake i guess) and cc me on it telling him that her H knows all about it and that what they have doen has devastated her marriage and her family, that she should never have done it and can never ever see him again?
No, I'm not talking about giving HER a plan, SWW.

I'm talking about giving YOU one.

I understand that you aren't ready to forgive, but you can give her steps for the plan and watch her actions to know if she is doing it. You don't have to forgive yet. She doesn't deserve it yet (imo) because she hasn't shown you a commitment to recovering the M.

NC needs to be a hand-written letter that she writes and then you read and you send in the mail. I think it is important that she write it by hand because it is an ownership of the words. Your suggestion is good. I would include that she requests that he NEVER contact her again and that she will never contact him again. Also that she is committed to you and to your M.

Believe me on the hand-written letter. I fought it for awhile thinking that it wasn't that important. It made a HUGE difference emotionally to see it written by my H and to send it myself.
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
I don't know where to go from here.
On! You. Go. On.

Originally Posted by sickwithworry
The intimate parts of my wife's body that I used to love are now filthy thoughts to me. I don’t think I can ever trust her again and I don't see how I could ever be intimate with her knowing those parts were in use many many times in all different kind of ways with the biggest jerk on the planet.
Maybe more than one jerk, if the evidence you already have stands up. But, however it may be, this eventually passes. It may take years, but it will eventually be less and less traumatic for you.

The labyrinth of lies becomes the bigger thing to deal with, for most people. You and she will need to start there when you are ready. Actually, when she is ready. She will still be hoping to wiggle out of this with minimal consequences – which means lie her way along.

Know you will never hear the whole truth about all of it. She may not know the whole truth about her adulteries. Things very important to you she has already forgotten. And you will eventually forget them too.

She has some boxes to check off fairly soon. Formal NC letter, for one.

For what it’s worth, the only good advice for you right now is to not immediately file for divorce (unless you need to protect your children from OM, or drugs or neglect). Think about D all you want, but plan what you would like to have happen in your life for a week or three, and then start working towards it. D can be an exit ramp you take anytime she fails to hold up her end of your plan.

Think of your children and yourself first, for right now. That will give you some breathing room. And allow yourself to experience the anger. It’s natural. Don’t act on it, but let it rise up and dissipate.

With prayers,
Yes, to what HTM said.

Even if you end up not recovering your M, you should want OM out of your children's life.

End this A for THEIR sakes.
Marshmallow,

YES HELP! I need someone to tell me right now what to do besides breathe, which is becoming difficult right now.

What about the NC, is that first? Since I won't see her until this weekend, if at all what about the email idea first, then the letter that I post.
hicktownmommy

ok ok, good thoughts, i am breathing, hand written letter
Aphelion

how do i delete it?
Aphelion

done
Click edit on that post, delete text, submit post.
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Marshmallow,

YES HELP! I need someone to tell me right now what to do besides breathe, which is becoming difficult right now.

What about the NC, is that first? Since I won't see her until this weekend, if at all what about the email idea first, then the letter that I post.

Having her write and send him a NC letter and cc you a copy would be a good start.

Let's see if she is willing to do this first.

Then we'll tell you what the next step is.

What other letter were you thinking of sending her?





Give yourself a timeline before reataining a lawyer.

Say 60 days... I suspect if like me, you will change your mind often fighting with attempting recovery -vs- filing for D. Honestly, whats the rush?

Not that it matter much, but do you think your WW's downplay of the A was her protecting your feelings, or just another lie to protect herself?

-JKT
Step One: Tell her that you need her to hand write a No Contact Letter this week.

She needs to include that she was wrong to have an A. That the A is over. That she loves you and is committed to your M. She will NEVER contact OM again and does not want him to ever contact her again. She may end with a request that he respect her wishes.

Can you get OM's address? Does she have it? You can read the letter and send it by mail this weekend.

I would have her check in with you by phone all the time to make sure you are doing ok. It shows her commitment to you and it allows you a chance to know where she is at. But you may not want to talk with her often if your anger is present. My anger isn't there yet. I needed H to talk with me.

Encourage WW to get her things in order at the house. Get it clean. Remove anything that relates to the A. And let her know that it is not acceptable for her to go out with ANY male friends at this point. And ask her to get Surviving an Affair. She needs to see the pain and know the process too.
And please, get to a doctor and get on ADs!!!!

Marshmallow

I am not sending her any letter. I think HTM's suggestion that she hand write a letter and give it to me to post is probably a good test. I dont think i can look her in the face this weekend though and i dont want to ruin my daughters start to camp by throwing up...
Justkeeptrying

I suspect it was another in a long string of lies to protect herself and i dont expect it to stop anytime soon.
hicktownmommy

im taking notes, breathing a little again.
Marshmallow

I will have to use working out for ad's, security clearance.
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Marshmallow

I will have to use working out for ad's, security clearance.

Oh, ok, I was wondering if that might be a problem.

Yes, get to a gym.
hicktownmommy

Does anyone have an example of a good NC letter? Although what you typed in your post was pretty good.
Do I contact OM once NC letter is done? please don't yell if the answer is no...I wont have the book till this afternoon.
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Do I contact OM once NC letter is done? please don't yell if the answer is no...I wont have the book till this afternoon.

Don't worry about making contact w/ him, unless it is to rearrange his face for him.

JUST KIDDING

No, don't talk to him. If your WW establishes NC that means NC for you too.

Oh and when she sends you the NC letter, let us see it first before it is sent to him.

Tell her you want to preview it first.
Here is verbatim what my H wrote to OW (I made a copy of it).

OW,

I love and respect my wife and children. I want to protect my marriage and rebuild my relationship with my wife. I will never communicate with you again nor accept any communications from you. What I have done is hurtful to my wife and everyone involved. No one deserves this kind of hurt. There is no need to go point counter point. The affair is over.

H

I don't really like the point/counterpoint comment, but he had to write it in his own style. I think the important things to include are:
I love my H and children.
I want to protect and rebuild my M.
I will never communicate with you.
I don't want you to ever communicate with me.
What I did was wrong.
The A is over.
Marshmallow

ok on the letter, i was actually going to insist that she give it to me and i would mail it so i am sure it gets posted. i will copy it in here when/if i can get her to do it. if she won't i guess that's the first indicator she's not going to work on this.
I sent a very vindictive email prior to the no contact letter to OW. I even suggested that if she had trouble coming clean with her H, I would be happy to share...

That was BEFORE NC. Now I follow NC the same way that H does. You don't want to stir the pot ever again. I kind of broke NC when I sent a letter to OWH telling him what I knew, but it took me awhile to get to a point where I was ready to tell him. I never heard from him and I don't intend to ever waste any more time on their family.
My H was reluctant. I had to insist that he do it. He later said that he knew the letter wasn't just for OW, that it was also for me. But he did it because I told him I needed it.
I have a clearance too and understand the AD issue. There are natural supplements you can take that will help - there are folks who swear by Omega-3's, St John's Wort, and so on.

Making sure you get enough exercise and sunshine will help too. You probably work in a windowless bunker somewhere - try to get outside and take a walk, or eat your lunch outside.

Sorry if I missed it, but is it impossible to move your family to DC? How long is your rotation there?
bitbucket

I am thinking I need to insist they move here if I don't get something at home. No i'm not in a windowless bunker thankfully, we have those wonderful little noise machines on all the windows smile

I am going to take a killer run today!
hicktownmommy

How long did it take you to convince him to do it?
SWW,

Great idea for them to move where you are!!
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
I will have to use working out for ad's, security clearance.
Working out is good. Helps a lot. I can feel the stress lowering. Sleep better too.

However, ADs do not negate your clearances. The powers that be just need to be told.

with prayers,
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Do I contact OM once NC letter is done? please don't yell if the answer is no...I wont have the book till this afternoon.
Up to you, actually. You will get conflicting advice about that here.

I confronted wife’s 10-year OM in person. Interesting story actually. That is what ran him off in the end. Worked out well. I also contacted OM’s wife in person and we worked NC verification together for three years.

If you can stay in control when in front of him and hear his excuses and justifications without losing it, I recommend it. Have a witness nearby though.

With prayers,
I agree with Aphelion. I confronted and said what I needed to say before/during the NC letter process.

HOWEVER, once NC was established by my DH, that included me as well. Otherwise, I was stirring the pot and that was not healthy.
Honestly, I decided that it was necessary and I just told H that we needed to get it done. He complained that he would work on it. I said, "Let's just do it right now and get it over with." He squirmed. I said, "It won't take long and then we'll be done with it and can move forward. Here's a piece of paper, a pencil and some ideas." He asked me to write it. I told him he had to write it. So he did. I left him alone in the bedroom to do it. It was non-negotiable. I was nice about it, but he realized that he had to do it, or we were not moving forward.

I think it took longer to convince ME that it was important than him. He didn't care how it affected OW...but he knew how it affected ME. That was his motivation.
I can also confirm AD's issued as result of emotional or traumatic event are not considered meds required to function day to day (It's not permanent).

When I completed my 5 year periodic input, I listed the meds and time frame (3 months). The periodic was evaluted without issue or questions. It can effect specific read-in reliablity programs, but no differently than any other percribed meds.

At a minimum talk to the Doc about your options if the clearance issue is your only concern.

-JKT
Justkeeptrying,

thanks, i will think about it if i feel i can't cope. read ins are a problem, i am gonna start with the gym. thank you.
SWW,

Here's a few clips from Dr. Harley right here on the site. Hopefully you will have your book soon and can see more detailed information.


Quote
Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.


Quote
My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.

Quote
In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.


The NC letter is a must! And then continued confirming of NC is important as well. Note that even Dr. Harley mentions moving to another state to avoid contact.
Well, I bought the book surviving an A last night. I think me and WW are Jon and Sue.

I have a question about plan A/B. WW seems to be talking about wanting to fix things and that's great. I don't want to seem like I am harping on the A, but I have a difficult time making pleasant small talk. Is this normal? Should I be pleasant while we are making plans? I seem to want her to talk about the A, not about meeting at camp for DD.

I know I need to avoid LB's but it is hard. Her being pleasant and nice I am interpreting as it's over, it wasnt that big a deal, let's move on and talk about other stuff.

She is going to see her friend today kim who she couldn't see yesterday due to a late flight arrival and who is a BS herself. WW is supposed to call me afterwards where I will tell her about NC letter.
Quote
I don't want to seem like I am harping on the A, but I have a difficult time making pleasant small talk. Is this normal?

Yes. Very.

Quote
I seem to want her to talk about the A, not about meeting at camp for DD.

Asking questions about the A is not LBing.

Ask.

Quote
WW is supposed to call me afterwards where I will tell her about NC letter.

Good. Let us know what she says.



thanks m,

yeah i was feeling bad when this morning she was making small talk and i told her finally look have you talked to kim? I think you need to do that soon, like real soon, and then call me and let's make our plans for the 4th of july weekend to talk. she said ok. I was pretty curt and felt like i should email or call and apologize for that, but thought the better of it and didn't.

I feel like she needs to be pushed, even if it means i have to be short with her.
Understanding needs to become your WW's middle name.

How'd that run go for you yesterday? What do you have planned for today?

Also, you need to tell OMGF about the A.

Although, I like the idea of going w/ your WW while SHE tells her "friend" about it....face to face.

Either way, YOU need to be a part of it to ensure it actually gets done.

SWW,

You are in the VERY BEGINNING of recovery. You have a right to ask about the A. You will probably want to ask questions about it for awhile. You are putting together pieces of a puzzle...figuring out what you missed...it takes time. I am 4 months from dday and I am still asking occasional questions about the details of the A.

I think the trick is that you ask questions without love busters...no angry outbursts, no disrespectful judgments...it won't be pleasant for your WW, but it is necessary. Your WW needs to be ready to talk whenever you need to. My F-WH called me all the time during the day and sometimes I needed to talk for awhile, other times I was ok with small talk. It came in waves and he had to be ready to ride them.

The other thing is that you balance those talks with 15+ hours of time meeting each others ENs...spending time together having fun and NOT talking about the A. That way you can work on rebuilding your love for one another. Some people here suggest that you set aside an hour a week of time to "work" on A issues. I think it may be too soon to do that in your case, but eventually you might think about that. Right now, you have a lot of catching up to do to understand the whole picture of the life that your WW was leading. Asking questions and talking is how you will get this done.

Someone posting a great thread to me in the beginning about why we must talk about it. I'll look for it and post it here.

HTM
hicktownmommy et al.

Whew what a night last night. We talked like we were back in college for 1.5 hours, no strain, no uncomfortable silences...all because I was able for a little while to dissociate my brain from the A. Towards the end I hated to ruin such a good love bank session, but I felt I had to still strike while the iron was hot. I told her that next week I needed her to give me the truthful details about what happened so I could heal. She said she still doesn't really understand but that she would think about it. She agreed to the NC letter. I told her I would explain it in the morning by email and then we could talk later, here is what i sent her:

WW, I cannot tell you how important it is to me to know the truth and that you are telling me the whole truth. At first you said it didn't happen, that I was jealous and crazy, then it was only twice and fast and since I was accusing you of it anyway why not do it, you said both times made you feel horrible and you hurried out.

Now you know I know that a lot more was going on so you say another thing, it was just sex fun with a nice guy but you can't remember much. What I am supposed to do here? If you can't tell me exactly when and where it began and the details of how often you were with him, how long it lasted, when did it break off, who broke it off etc. I don't see how you can ever expect me to heal or trust that after another fight, or some reason that I make you angry or depressed you won't go right back over there. Of course you remember exactly when and where the first time was, and the answers to all those other questions. But if you can't share this with me to make the whole thing "ours" then it is still a secret between you and him.

I need to know was it ever in our home? Where besides his appt? Who else knew? Did you share intimate details about us? Did you go out with just him to dinner or drinks or was it just sex?

It is far better for me to know the whole truth so I don't imagine the worst, it is eating me alive inside. And what I am imagining is pretty graphic and probably far worse than what really happened.

It won't be easy for either of us, for you to say or me to hear, but if I don't hear all the details I can't reconcile. If I don't know that you have sat down with me, or let me give you a list of questions to answer and you answer them fully and truthfully, I can never heal.

I am a stronger person than you think. It will hurt, but I love you too much to let just this break us up. If you are deceptive again though it will be much worse than simply coming out with it all. The worst is pretty much out there already, this is just the details. Once this has been done maybe we can move on to the second half of our lives which I hope can be a much more caring, communicating (more listening on my part) and loving one. I love talking to you now, and I remember now how funny you are. But I can't get there until I know you have spent some time telling me everything and then letting me digest it.

Please let me know you can do this. I need it. You are my best friend.

cont.
WW told me that she had given up on me, excuses still I know, but she has valid points, just not good enough for an A.

She is right, when my father pulled all of his money out of our business and I had to move to DC she was abandoned, was it necessary, yes, but I can understand how she feels. We quit communicating because I just couldn't stand to hear what I interpreted as complaiining about something over which I had no control.

I have told you all about WW's sexualy history. She did this 20 years ago when we broke up, she went on a tear, says she sees nothing wrong with having SF with someone if they are nice and she likes them and she is not in an exclusive realtionship, which due to our circumstances she felt we were no longer in one. She says she now is wracked with guilt because she sees that that was not the case, but she can't fix it now.

She tells me that this was not an EA, although yes, he is nice, but that she basically wanted something new for awhile. I was not meeting her needs and for awhile he was. She says it was about the SF and a fun companion and that's it. Judging from what I have told you all, her SF with "friends" 1 time or so because they were nice and she liked them, I can believe it.

I just wonder which is worse and EA/PA or SF with domeone because she felt we were broken up and it was just about having a fling?
SWW--I do apologize for the t/j, but I just have to say to Aphelion, "If you're truly leaving the boards, I want you to know that on a day a few weeks ago when I couldn't find much humor in anything, I chanced across your tag line about the lunging eel and bitten snout, and it's made me laugh ever since every time I think about it."

Wish everything here were funny...for all of us. More's the pity that it isn't. Too bad, but sometime's a moray's just an eel. crazy
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/27/08 03:27 PM
SWW,

You are making progress and that is good. Telling lies has been her "safe mode". It's an old habit that has to die hard.

EA or PA or ONS - it all hurts, and it all hurts your M.

Stay with the MB program, it works. You will have ups and downs, but don't give up.

I think it's important that you are open to the issues that put your M in a vulnerable place where an A could happen. Doesn't mean it's your fault, she made a choice that she needs to be accountable for, but I think that when the BS is able to own their own accountability in M recovery, it makes it a bit easier.

Much further to fall when you put yourself on a self-righteous pedestal and then realize that you might have some ownership in a M problem.

Make sense?

You're doing great!!! Keep it up and continue to stay the course.
onlyUcan,

thank you so much for the encouragement! I was begining to give up on the whole thing in the space of an hour. I can't believe this woman would do this.

She is still making excuses, basically saying that there is no moral equivalency, BUT, she wants me to understand her hurts too.

I am patient, and mostly just listen through long silences until the words come out when we discuss this stuff. There are times when I feel so disgusted that i just want to give up on the whole thing, tell the whole world what she did and move on and let her fall into the ash heap of desolation.
onlyUcan,

Also, has anyone ever heard of this type of affair. I mean is it possible for a woman to have a PA that is with someone they are not in love with or have an extremely close connection to?

Being a guy I just always assumed that women were supposedly incapable emotionally for that type of thing. Is it a thrill ride or do you think she is lying?
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/27/08 04:04 PM
SWW,

Read my thread on 'is it worth asking the question "why"'..there are some good replies in it.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...in=150604&Number=2058329#Post2058329

At 40 something (which I believe your WW is), I can honestly say that there is a possibility of a PA that was "all about sex". Especially based on her history.

She had the H and kids at home, it appears this was her desire to fulfill what she perceived as a "need" to be wild, party and have "something different".

A's are addictions and addictions look different, depending on what need they are fulfilling for the person addicted. Some Affairs/Addictions are completely fulfilling an EMOTIONAL NEED and some are fulfilling a PHYSICAL NEED.

However, that doesn't give her an "excuse" or a "get out of jail free" card just because there were not feelings involved.
It is my belief that the act of infidelity is not what does the greatest damage to the M. It is the lying / covering up afterward that does the greatest damage, To yourself and your wandering spouse.

With that said: Here are a few things that can help you and your spouse.

1. She must be totally honest with you about everything
2. She must answer every question that you ask truthfully and fully.
3. She must do everything in her power to prove to you that you are the one that she wants to be with.
4. She must prove her love to you ... She must be patient, gentle, compassionate and understanding.
5. She must feel your pain.
6. She must fully understand the devastation that she caused you.
7. She must accept full responsibility for her actions.
8. She must stop all contact with OP and not protect them.
9. She must reassure you that it is OK to ask questions. Having the truth is the only way that you can truly heal.
10. She must reassure you that she will not drive you away by doing the things that are necessary to heal.
11. She must learn to recognize when you are struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort you.
12. She must be able to tell you how sorry she is and show you.
13. She must re-enforce to you, that you are not responsible for her affair.
14. She must put her own feelings of guilt and shame aside and help you heal first.
15. She must reconnect emotionally, mentally, and physically with you and stay connected.
16. She must work on rebuilding trust. No secrets. No privacy.
17. She must be willing to seek counseling.

Here is a list of things that you must do:

1. Give her the necessary time to prove her love and commitment to you.
2. Be open with your feelings.
3. Ask the questions that are important to you.
4. Don't be afraid that she will drive you away while you are trying to heal.
5. Stop blaming yourself for her actions. You are in no way responsible for her choice to engage in an affair!
6. You must be able to let her connect with you. (this one takes time)
7. You must continue checking up on her in order to rebuild trust.
8. You must be willing to seek counseling so that you do not get stuck in one of the stages of recovery: such as anger or depression.

These are just a few of the things that I have thought of off the top of my head. With these things in place, then reconciliation can be successful. It is still a long journey, but with baby steps it can be achieved.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/27/08 06:19 PM
Excellent post WTF.
walkingthefield,

All I can say is wow!
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/27/08 06:28 PM
Yes, such a good list.....nice!

And SWW, your wife seems like she is "trouble" and toxic for many many years prior to any affairs. I would look at HER and how she has BEEN. And her lies and manipulations. You may find she is simply TOXIC all around and is not good for YOU no matter what. If you observe carefully and see that she is TOXIC to you then face that truth and act accordingly.

You never know, perhaps this affair was the straw that broke the camels back, perhaps this is the shovel needed to unload the last yard of dirt on the coffin that is here toxic heart.

If you had not found out about the affair, you might not know how manipulative and toxic she really is! And it is a good thing to know her true personality!
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/27/08 07:18 PM
Can a woman just has an affair for sex without a mental connection? Yes.

Could WW of said it was just sex to lessen the hurt that you would feel if if you had learned that the WW also emotionally bonded with the OM? Yes.

Will we know if it was only sex? Who knows.
Stellakat

you have a good point. i think mostly i am just afraid. I have been kind of afraid of her for years to be honest, for 5'2" 105 lbs she is kind of a bully.

I will do MB for awhile though, i am of course still fighting those mental images of her in a relationship where she was just seeking SF gratification and companionship. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I just thought it was a pretty rare female that would do that, other than say a 1 night stand. I got a lot to learn it would seem.
TheRoad,

Well I guess you are right, we will prob never know. I can find evidence of a PA, but I can't climb into someone's head if they don't want to talk. If it was possible for a woman to do it and then compartmentalize it, my WW is the one to do it though. She is a master compartmentalizer, never shares her feelings or thoughts.

She used to be pretty much a nymp*omaniac too. I can only imagine the wild ride and verbal antics old charlie must have gotten...
SWW,

I think Road's comment about your WW telling you that it was just SF to lessen the blow may be closer to the truth. I think there are probably women out there who can have SF without emotions, but chances are there was some EA involved. She may not even see it at the moment...she is still foggy.

A comment about your email to her. I would be careful about the way in which you remark about behavior. It's a subtle thing, but I noticed a lot of "YOU statements"...you telling her what she knows or what she can and cannot do...It would be better to stick with "I statements"...like this:

Instead of "YOU know I know that a lot more was going on so you say"...try "I feel that you were motivated to tell me because I knew that more was going on than you said..."

Instead of "I don't see how YOU can ever expect me to heal or trust that after another fight, or some reason that I make you angry or depressed you won't go right back over there"...try "I cannot heal or trust without..."

Instead of "Of course YOU remember exactly when and where the first time was, and the answers to all those other questions"...try "I feel like you are being dishonest when you say you cannot remember the details of the first time..."

The difference is that when you make an "I statement," you are talking about YOU. She cannot argue with it. When you make a "you statement," you are passing a judgment on her. She can argue that you are not right. And it is a love buster.

If you focus on how YOU feel and stating YOUR impressions, YOUR needs, YOUR concerns, then she is more likely to take a less defensive stance and be more open to discussion. I know it seems like semantics...but it really makes a difference. And it is so much better for discussing the really tough stuff without withdrawing from the love bank.

HTM
She used to be pretty much a nymp*omaniac too. I can only imagine the wild ride and verbal antics old charlie must have gotten...

Don't go there in your head if you can avoid it. It's not helpful to your recovery. Believe me...BTDT. I cannot even watch a movie with a BJ involved because all I see is my H and that b%$tch OW (that was one of the big details that I asked for and wish I could remove from my head permanently). I think it's an easy way to withdraw love units from your WWs account without her even being there.

HTM
hicktownmommy

oh boy are you right. I wish i had had you proof it first, i'll learn, thanks.
It's funny because I teach 2nd graders and this is a BIG thing that we work on. But I work on it with my H a lot too. It just makes arguing so much calmer and kinder.

I use it with my boys too. Instead of "You're lying" where they can come back with "No I'm not." I say "I don't believe you." What are they going to say? "Yes you do."? We own our emotions and nobody can tell us what we feel. It helps with respect for both sides.

You're doing awesome though. I am glad you were able to enjoy some time with WW and still stand up for the needs that you honestly have.

You can do it.
hicktownmommy

Boy are you right. If I even see an attractive woman in a skirt I think of my WW and Charlie and I get almost an electric shock jolt to my stomach and my heart.

I have to admit this is kind of funny. I even told WW when she asked how i was doing. We both laughed, although now I don't like that she laughed but at the time it seemed ok. My friend was driving us home from work a day or so ago. There was a construction crew on the side of the road putting something in the ground. He said, "Oh look at that, they are laying Pipe." I almost broke into tears.

Now that's sad, but pretty funny too...
IT is just like a mourning process. When my mom died, I was late returning videos to the store. I explained the circumstances to the lady at the counter and she was very understanding. As I walked out, I said to my friend..."I guess I can't use that excuse again." Sometimes the only thing you can do is laugh so that you don't fall to pieces.

I dedicated a song on the radio to OW..."Homewrecker." H didn't think it was funny, but I did.
Hi hicktownmommy,

Thanks for the reply of friday. I actually had the first good weekend since last summer. Slept a lot, worked out, cooked a steak on the grill, played golf, basically took care of me.

Didn't call WW and it must have been almost psychic because I got to the point where I was saying in my head, "I am not in a hurry anymore. I need time to think and process. I will be very nice and deposit love units, but I am not going to call her, let her call me."

Well she did, constantly to chat. We had good conversations and nothing about the A.

Went to church and was asking for some kind of sign of what i am supposed to do. Anything.

Sermon was on how to trust someone. I felt it was targetted directly at me. You know the easy thing to do would be to walk out now. I am tempted to do it. But I think I am being led to take on the hard task of making this work, even if I am the one being blamed right now.

Finished surviving an A. We are definitely jon and sue.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/30/08 02:12 PM
Glad to hear you had such a good weekend, SWW.

How about that NC letter? Has she written it, yet?

Marshmallow,

She has agreed and we will write it together this weekend. She has agreed to "come clean" as well. I am not at all optimistic that she will reveal all or even most, but every time we talk she reveals more. We will see.

I have exposed the A to people who can pressure her. I have not followed up to see if they have done so or not. I have not exposed the A to any of OM's family or her family. Should I do so if she does the NC letter and promises that it won't happen again, or should i tell her that i am still checking up on her and if she does it again I will tell her and OM's entire family and ask for their help?

She says it is over, it was a test for companionship and SF and it's done, that she knows it's me she wants. Should I further expose under these circumstances?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/30/08 03:10 PM
Quote
Should I do so if she does the NC letter and promises that it won't happen again,

No, don't expose if she ends the A.

Quote
or should i tell her that i am still checking up on her and if she does it again I will tell her and OM's entire family and ask for their help?

And NOOOOOOO, don't tell her you will expose if she doesn't end the A.

If she knows you will do this, she will try to preempt you, and thus ruin the effectiveness of exposure.

Quietly hold exposure in your back pocket for now.

Marsh,

Oh thank G*d, I was worried you were going to tell me to do it anyway! Shwew, and you are right, I will hold that info in reserve.

My plans are to listen to her tell me when, where, how long etc. Answer my questions, have her write and I send NC letter, and then ask what can both of us do to make sure this doesn't happen again. I plan to take her to dinner too with little to no talk about the A for awhile.

Marsh, you are a fount of wisdom. thank you!

Just talked to her, she actually spent the night at my uncle and aunt's house last night on way to taking DD to camp. I am frankly amazed as my aunt suspected something was going on as well awhile ago. She told WW in January to her face that she did not approve of her lifestyle of partying, that she was being a poor mother to her children, that she was disrespecting me by her behaviour and not wearing her wedding rings, and that she was setting a terrible example for her children. She told WW that if she ever wanted to talk she would be there for her though. WW was FURIOUS.

Now WW spends the night at their house, I am somewhat encouraged.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/30/08 04:12 PM
Thanks, SWW, and you're most welcome.

Quote
Now WW spends the night at their house, I am somewhat encouraged.

So am I!

Glad to hear this!

Posted By: TheRoad Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 06/30/08 04:30 PM
If the OM is married I would expose to his wife.
TheRoad,

he is a 35 year old single man with no responsibilites and in my opinion a real loser. 6 yrs younger than my WW. I would expose for sure if he were married.
Well,

I hit the road for home today. WW sounds excited to see me. DD at camp and DS out west with grandfather. WW sounds resigned to talking about A and has agreed to NC letter as well as truth and an end to her former bahaviour.

I am still skeptical, but I have to say that plan A seems to be working wonders. We have never been so nice to each other and we talk for what seems like a short time and then when i hang up the cell phone reads an hour or more. I could use some prayers. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks, without you all I never would have maintained my sanity!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/03/08 01:24 PM
Very happy to hear things are improving between you two.

Many are praying for you.

ladies and gents,

dont know if i can take this anymore. was plan a'ing my [censored] off. Spent hours in the yard friday and today. Talked for two hours to WW on friday AM and never brought up the subject of the A. Just good company you know.

Then today WW calls and apologizes that she has a birthday party for our neighbors kid, feels bad she is gonna leave me doing yard work so wants to know how i feel about it. I told her no problem go. She leaves the house and i do more work. I go in the house and the 1 marker i have is the box of condoms in the bottom drawer. Now mind yuo, after our last talk there were 9 in the box. I check again.

Now there are 7 left and two packages are ripped open and put back in the big box empty. I freak! But...I calmly finish the yard work and go back to my dads. Kids are at camp. So i call her, i can hear the kids party going on and I tell her to call me when she gets in the car. She wants to know wahts going on, but i just say call.

Well I tell her about it and say how could you? in our house. She says with all that's been going on I have every right to doubt her but it wasn't her. She says she hasn't been in that drawer for ages and would not be dumb enough to put back empty packages back in the box when she knew full well i had been snooping. She called it a perfect storm.

She said we should talk to DD (15) about it that she and her friend had been snooping and may have gotten curious.

She came over and we talked. She told me about the A. That it went on for about 3 months. I said I don't want all the details but i guess you all did pretty much in bed waht everyone does, every position, or*l, etc.

She said it wasn't that exotic.

She has issues still though. She said i abondoned her like everyone else in her life has always done. said she couldn't trust me to stay now, that she could only trust herself and that was it. I told her that i had not been released from this relationship yet, and i talked about God's plan for marriage. That as difficult as it was I would be here to support her. That I was being told to do this. Now I know this sounds sanctimonious, you'll just have to trust me I did it slowly and tactfully.

She told me she thought the Bible was a storybook made up by people. That Lazarus was prob alive and that's why he came out of the tomb bc they put in escape hatches because medicine wasn't good and they often buried people alive. Read history for heaven's sake. She said Chrisianity was great for some, but she felt it was a great place for people who weren't strong to alleviate their guilt and use it as a crutch.

She spewed about how the Catholic Church treated her mom when her first husband abandoned her and how she will never forget it. She has a lot of anger, she said she didn't know what to do but had to leave.

I asked for and got a hug and told her if she wanted to talk later tonite i would be here. I told her about the NC letter and she is panicked about it. claims if her group of freinds find out they will excommunicate her. I told her too bad, if Charlie wants to spill the beans about a private letter that's his problem, it's happening. She said OK, but we do it together.


FOREVER HERS, I NEED YOUR HELP! Am I taking on too much?????
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/06/08 12:17 AM
She's lying.

I'm sorry.

You need to hire a PI.

Have her watched when you aren't there.

IF she writes the letter, make copies of it. Hold onto the copies in case you need to expose, they will be your proof to her friends and family.

IF she writes the letter be sure YOU mail it...at the post office.


Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/06/08 12:22 AM
SWW.

Was it really ok w/ you that she left you this weekend to go to a children's BD party?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/06/08 12:47 AM
At least you got her to tell you about the affair and when you make a copy of the NC letter you will have proof.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/06/08 02:44 AM
SWW,

She's been lying for her entire life, it's not going to change over night. I wouldn't trust anything she says and follow up on everything. It sucks, but it has to be done.

I think it's a great idea to hire the PI, especially because you are not home 100% of the time yet.

That NC letter should have been done a long time ago, she's stalling.



Marsh,

Don't you think those so-called friends of hers should be on the "expose" list anyway? Wouldn't they be her "allies" in covering things up if they don't know the truth of what happened between her and good ol' Charlie?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/06/08 03:33 AM
OUC,

Yes, they should definitely be on the expose list. It's just the question of when to expose.

IMO, the A is still on going.

So exposure should happen now!

But, he'll need proof to show them.

SWW,

I know that you want so badly for this thing to be over. I know you want to believe her. But, you will have to accept the reality of the sitch before you can hope to end the A and recover your M.

Hire the PI, let him gather intel that the A is still on going and then expose the A to everyone who will put pressure on her.

Including OMGF. I think it's awful that she still thinks of WW as her friend.

BTW: It made zero sense to me that the reason she didn't want to send the NC letter to OM was b/c her friends might find out. Why would he tell anyone about it? It might get back to his GF. He's not going to take that chance.

I agree w/ OUC. She's stalling.

Get your proof. And then expose to everyone in one day.

DO NOT THREATEN TO DO THIS.

DO NOT TELL HER YOU WILL.

JUST DO IT.







TheRoad,

Yeah I thought it was positive she was talking about it too. She is, reluctantly, answering every question I have. She is so depressed, happy one second, weepy the next. I already have proof but the PI is a good idea. I will call him back.

The only thing on the condoms that gives me a 50/50 on believing her is that there was never a night when the kids weren't there the last two weeks since i was home except for one and she got home from taking DS to the airport around midnite. Since I was home we spent most of our time together during the day and at nite.
Marsh,

Yes I need to confirm if it is ongoing to expose further. I think she is a person torn apart right now and doesn't know where to turn or what to do. I am drafting the NC letter and yes I will be the one to send it. Once she signs it as I have demanded I will have even more proof in case it is still going on.

She told me that OM Charlie is now seriously dating some other girl and they left town this weekend for the Keys. I think she is in the withdrawal phase, but might go back if given the opportunity even though she says how stupid it was.

I am upset she seems to be more concerned about her "friends" than me and her standing with them. She does however see how all our old friends are sticking by me, and the ones to whom the A was exposed have been seriously counseling her and then reporting back to me.

I am still feeling a responsibilty for helping her and that God has not released me from this marriage yet.
How is this for our NC letter? Marsh told me to let y'all read first. Any opinions? Plan to have her sign and we mail together this weekend.



Charlie,

I have been doing a lot of thinking and now realize that what I and we did was horribly selfish and wrong. BS found out about it and I have admitted to him what happened. No matter what I told you about BS's faults, he did not deserve to be treated like this.

Now, I may lose my marriage and my family over it which was a consequence I had not truly thought all the way through. It was terrible to cause those I love so much pain. While putting my marriage back together cannot completely repay the offense, it is the right thing to do. I realize now that I care very much for my husband, the twenty-four years we have together, and my children.

For my family’s protection I have promised not to communicate with you ever again in any way and I hope you will respect that and honor my wishes. If we see each other accidentally again I have promised to tell BS about it.


Signature


Posted By: TheRoad Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/07/08 07:16 PM
Your letter sounds like it was writen by a BH not the WW.

It is personal verses cold, contains justifications, reasons and excuses. You also include how the marriage may collapse giving OM incentive to stict around. BH's pain, oh yah that will really make OM feel bad.

It is not short and to the point.

Mr OM,

Us having an affair was wrong. I have told BS everything.
I have recommited to my marriage and never want to have contact with you by any means ever again. This is why I have sent you this No Contact letter.


Signature
TheRoad,

Wow! Glad you read it first. Thanks very much. Yeah, I wrote it and after your comments I can see it is pretty sappy.

I am just having a rough day after the details she told me about their PA and I guess it bled over into the letter.
Sorry for not writing sooner, but we've been without internet for a week...

SWW, my first impression of the NC letter is to ask you why YOU are writing it and not HER? I get that she is not excited about writing it and that she has agreed to sign it, but I think it is an exercise in commitment for the WS to write out in their own hand what they did and how it harmed their spouse. They must commit to paper that they will never communicate again. It is a subtle difference, but I know that my H asked me to write his NC letter too and it would have meant so much less to our recovery if I hadn't insisted that HE write it himself. I helped him with the points that should be mentioned (a basic outline) but HE wrote it in his own handwriting with his own words.

Second, I think you should expose to all of her "friends" immediately. You say that you have proof, use it to show them. If you expose to them, then she cannot plead with you due to her friends possibly finding out. You did nothing wrong. You are a messenger of what she did and they were accomplices (knowing or unknowing) and have a right to know. By telling them, you do not need to feel guilty if she looses them as friends...that was already decided when she chose to be unfaithful. It was not your doing.

Third, the condom thing worries me. I get that you don't think she had the opportunity to use them at the house, but could she have left to meet him? And if she didn't use them, then the two of you should sit down with DD immediately. Does DD know about the A? If she does, she will understand the importance of knowing who took the condoms. If she doesn't know about it, you still need to talk with her. And DS is 13? My H was 12 when he lost his virginity...scary as it may be...you might want to talk with both of them.

Good luck.
hicktownmommy,

thanks for posting. I did give her the input for the letter, she is going to make changes. She is stalling though. She says it is over, he has moved on, it was never an emotional A it was strictly a fling, happened over two months and was 5-6 times tops. He now has a serious girlfriend and they no longer speak. Sorry but I am insisting.

She knows how devastated I am, and I hear a lot of sorrow, but I don't know about real remorse. The A is not my fault, but she says the situation of our porr marriage is mostly my fault. She is answering questions truthfully and I can see on her face and hear in her voice how much it is hurting her to answer my questions, but she is doing it. She is opening up about her feelings on a lot of things in a way she has never done in the past.

On the condoms thing, I thought about her taking them with her too, but I doubt she would bring the empty packets back to the house and put them in the box, but still, I am worried and I can't tell you how devastated I was when I found them. I nearly threw up, blood rushed out of my head, got dizzy, horrible.

I got a post from Marsh who told me if the A is truly over not to expose further right now beyond who i have exposed to already but to keep snooping and expose further if there is evidence it is ongoing. I am sneaking home this weekend on a military jet and will be in a rental car. So i'll check up.

I have to tell you since Sunday's talk with her I am experiencing a ton of triggers. I am finding it difficult to work or even get out of bed.

I asked some questions about the SF that I felt I needed to know. I guess I get what I asked for. Apparently she had orga*sms nearly every time and the SF, although she say "nothing exotic" was good. She says she is sorry I asked but she is going to tell me the truth. She says she thinks it is because it was someone new and it was a secret from me and everyone else, or something like that. She will not tell me if he is "physically gifted" but rather says that is a juvenile question but if you must know "normal" and no nothing more than you if that.

I remember you telling me about your WH's experiences and how it made you not want to do some things. Well, I am finding it difficult to kiss her if you know what I mean. Was paying for my drink at the store this morning and glanced at the condom counter. Got dizzy...
Oh yeah,

And while she loves my Plan A stuff like yardwork, carpentry, helping around the house etc. stuff I used to pay other people to do, she says she feels like I am putting on the full court press too much and to relax it up a little...
Quote
He now has a serious girlfriend and they no longer speak.

And she knows this how?
princessmeggy,

because she is friends with the girlfriend. went to the movies with her a couple weeks ago. Charlie (OM) and she went to the keys last weekend.
Triggers are a b*tch. They sneak up on you from behind and can take you down in a heartbeat. I don't know how long they last...definitely 5 months as I experience them all the time.

The talk about how you are responsible for the poor marriage is probably only a half truth. Fog babble. She is rewriting history to make it look like she was justified. Even if she doesn't come off righteous, she probably feels better thinking that you were the source of the malaise. Problem with that story is, there are TWO people in a marriage. She is also responsible for the state of the union. Don't take on too much of that burden.

And I would ignore her "relax a bit" suggestion. Do a great Plan A. Let her know that you are doing it because you know that it makes her feel good and that is your goal. She may feel like it's a bit much because it triggers guilt in her.

Details...details...you cannot erase what you know, but I think I mentioned before to be careful about what you ask. Ask yourself if you knowing that bit of information will help your recovery or not. If not, don't ask. I think that's why eventually Harley encourages you not to talk about the A...it hinders recovery at a certain point (but you've still got questions and that's fine).

I try to let H in on the triggers. I try to let him know when I have a hard time. I don't do it to blame but more to let him know what is going on in me. It hurts him to hear, but he needs to know. I avoided telling him things that bothered me before and look where it's gotten us.

Good idea to snoop. I do wonder if it's over...and INSIST on the NC letter. It is non-negotiable. It is her commitment to you that she will never talk with OM again.

HTM
I should probably update with our conversation last night of 2 hours.

She says she is not trying to justify what she did, it is unjustifiable and she says she knows this, but if I am wanting to talk about staying together she has to be able to at least say how she feels about some things.

She says she sees how hard I am trying to be a better husband, coming home every weekend for 3-4 days, doing yard work etc. but she says she feels very nervous because she has seen this frenzied activity before. How does she know this change will be permanent? What if she fully recommits and I abndon her again like her father, mother, family and I did before? Will she be hurt again? That is what she says she is struggling with primarily. She doesn't think she can withstand being abandoned again. She talked about me moving back in for good when the kids get back from Camp, but is nervous about it.

I have to admit she has a point. With the A pushed off to the side for a minute, she has reasons to be skeptical and it will take time to prove to her that I have changed in this regard.

I await your flames...



htm,

I agree, I am not going to let up on the Plan A or NC letter. I don't feel I am going too far, but, I think you are right, seeing me do such a good plan A makes her feel GUILTY.

On the triggers thing, I kinda think for now I know all I want to know. Knowing that the SF was good and that she had many orgas*s is not helping my mental image bank.

And no, I am not solely to blame for us growing apart, when we were travelling in Europe and skiing in Aspen and she had tons of $ she really never said a thing. It was when things started to go south $ wise (and I started checking out mentally) that she became my biggest critic.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/09/08 03:37 PM
SWW,

Find that balance between taking on her issues and resolving your own. Both sides are accountable for how the M is, but you will never be to blame for her A. I think it's a smart move to evaluate the LB that you have done in the M or the areas that you have not met her EN. After all, when all is said and done, you do want to create an Affair Proof Marriage.

Just stay focused on the steps. You're doing great.

There is lots of "rewriting history" that occurs and I believe that it comes from guilt. You can see from my WH's post (dogo1) that he is speaking from history (some of it not entirely true) that occurred from Year 1 of our M. I think he feels justified in his actions by doing so, but eventually he has to catch up to the "here and now" and realize that he has been living a pretty great life.

My prayers are with you. It would be wonderful to see a full recovery of your M. Did she agree to get counseling, IC and MC?
onlyUcan,

So far she has agreed to MC, IC she is nervous about, she hates talking about her thoughts and feelings and prob realizes she would have to do this and it freaks her out. She is the most private person I have ever known and a severe compartmentalizer. I think the cumulative weight of 40 years has caused a mental breakdown.

On the M, she is dredging up stuff from 20 years ago to support her argument, I didn't go to the Ray Charles concert with her, I skipped her brothers wedding in Texas (yea true unfortunately) I fell asleep during the night on the sofa in the hospital while she was in labor for 15 hours (ok, for 20 minutes but I had been up for 36 hours) and other stuff from a long time ago. She has a long litany.

I am confused on one thing though may be you can explain? She says she goes back and forth from day to day, one days she says she is driving around in the car thinking all day "I can't imagine life without you." Like the day not long ago when she hugged me and said, "I just don't believe it's (our M) over."

Then she says she has days like yesterday where she is totally confused as to what to do, not sure she wants to work on our M.

I'm confused, but I told her that no matter how badly she hurt me, I am not going to abandon her and that I still love her.

Here is an email exchange we just had on the NC letter and why she and OM broke it off. I'm ?????

Me: Please look this proposed letter to CT over and let's talk
later. Please remember I am fighting for you and our marriage and family! To you this may seem unecessary as you say it has been over a month since you last had sex with him. To me this is a war for you and my family, and I just found two used condom packets in my house. I believe you, but I am still very gunshy. In one form or another this needs to happen now. Please talk to me before we do anything.

(I send her the NC letter after changes)

WW: hate it and there's no way that's not a form letter. I still don't get this letter thing or why it's so important, but let me do it and yes you can send it or whatever.

Me: why did you and Charlie stop seeing each other? Because he
started dating Darby again?

WW: Had nothing to do with her at all.

Me: What was it? You just decided it wasn't right?

WW: It just ended. Nothing specific or earth shattering ended it.

Me: did u or he say its over, cant do this anymore? or just havent hooked up again?

WW: definatley mutual. I just wasn't all oooey gooey over him and realized that what i was looking for wasn't him or dating other people. I will tell you though, if I had completely fallen for him I would have filed for divorce the next day. I would have known that if I could fall for another guy I didn't really need you anymore.

WOW!
WAYWARD BABBLE! Don't buy it. She is angry...she is in withdrawl. She is lashing out at you.

Insist on the NC letter. I just told my H it needed to be done so let's get it over with. Very matter of fact.

Make sure you read the letter and send it yourself.
htm,

So you think she really did have feelings for this guy and maybe got dumped for the new younger girlfriend? That's what scares me, because he will be true to his MO and prob dump the girlfriend and WW could be waiting to get right back in there. OM is gonna get a phone call or visit with a voice tinged with anger about what will happen if he goes near WW again.

I am insisting on NC letter, it will get done, I just don't know what I can physically do to stop her sneaking over there except snoop and PI.

This really stinks...

Quote
I just wasn't all oooey gooey over him and realized that what i was looking for wasn't him or dating other people. I will tell you though, if I had completely fallen for him I would have filed for divorce the next day. I would have known that if I could fall for another guy I didn't really need you anymore.

This statement is a CLEAR indication that she in the FOG (hmmm, sounds like an oxymoron, huh?) She thinks she can "fall" for someone and feel "oooey gooey" enough to "file for divorce the next day."

She's definitely waaaayyy out there and has miles to go before she gets it.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/09/08 10:49 PM
SWW,

All of it is true wayward FOG and withdrawal symptoms. Try not to over analyze it and make it yours. Just know that it's part of the process and it's not your WIFE, it's the WAYWARD ONE.

I think it's promising that she said she would write the NC letter. HOWEVER, I can tell you from experience that it never really says is quite the way you would want it said. So be clear on some criteria that you need in there, simple stuff, but be sure it meets those requirements so you won't have it hanging over your head that it wasn't good enough.
Posted By: MrsZonie Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/09/08 11:59 PM
SWW,
I haven’t posted to you yet, but I’ve been following your story. I thought I could offer some perspective about your WW since I’m a FWW.

When I told Mr. Z about the A, it was because he pretty much busted me. I got caught in a lie and he wouldn’t let it go until I told him the truth. I thought he was ready to hear it; I had no idea that my confession would tear him to the core.

Although I was relieved the A was over and Mr. Z agreed to take me back, I was in a very similar place as your WW. The OM in my situation was also in a new relationship. I have to admit, I was feeling pretty low about it because I couldn’t handle the rejection. The OM wanted to keep our “friendship” going with me, but the truth was he just wanted to keep me on the side in case things didn’t work out with his GF.

Despite the fact that I knew how lucky I was that Mr. Z took me back, and that he is clearly an extraordinary man, husband, and father, I still fought the urge, sometimes hourly, to keep from texting the OM. Texting had been a habit, like smoking cigarettes. Any time there was news on the radio, or some new song, or a new movie out, I wanted to text him and tell him about it. But, just like with smoking, I knew not to give into temptation. I fought thinking about the OM, even though the A caused me and my family so much pain. To some extent, I think I was addicted to the pain. In this state, I could only think of myself and my feelings and I did not feel much remorse for what I did to my husband. He would tell me about his pain, and I didn’t understand. To make matters worse, he was shouldering the burden of why things went wrong in our marriage.

After a few weeks, the urge to contact the OM started to subside. As the fog was lifting, I began to see the A with clearer vision. I began to see what a toxic person the OM was. As the weeks passed into months, I revealed more details to Mr. Z about the A. I also confessed to things I had lied about right after D-day. I was finally able to take responsibility for what I did and recognized (with lots of MB coaching) that I did not protect my weaknesses my A was not his fault. I took the yoke that he’d been carrying, and he felt tremendous relief from that. At this stage, each day I became more in touch with his pain, and more in touch with him as a man, and we began to connect more deeply, more compassionately, and more honestly. At some point, I started to feel his pain so much that I actually fell into a depression. Although Mr. Z felt bad that I was depressed, my ability to feel remorse helped him heal a lot at that time. I really think that’s when we reached a turning point in our recovery and started working as a team.

After four months since d-day, I actually feel disgust if I think about the OM. Sometimes I shake my head and I can’t believe how I let myself become that person. Mr. Z has told me that he is not going to let the A define who I am, because he knows it was an aberration. We still have years to go, but I do think the severe ups and downs are smoothed out now.

I pray this gives you hope.

Mrs Z.


onlyUcan

How's this?

Charlie,

Our having an affair was wrong. I have told BS everything. I have recommited to my marriage and my family and never want to have contact with you by any means ever again. This is why I have sent you this No Contact letter. Please respect my wishes.


Signature

I would intend to follow up with a somewhat threatening phone call. I want to make this cat scared.
onlyUcan et.al.,

I just sent her the NC letter with the instructions that this has to be done today. I am sure she is freaking and she has gone dark.

If she refuses to send it should I further expose? I know OM's boss, he is the president of the company and one of my dad's best friend. Her group of "friends" are friends of them both.

Should I drop the bomb all at once if she refuses NC letter?
MrsZonie,

Thank you so much for posting. I feel like I understand so much more about my WW hearing this from you. Your post gave me the guts to tell her that the NC letter needs to go TODAY.

I hope she makes the right decision. She seems to think if she tells me she doesn't have feelings for him that that should be enough, no reason for NC letter. Fact is, she was sleeping with him during a time she already told me she didn't have romantic feelings for him, it was just fun SF.

Which begs the question, if you were doing it before with no feelings, what's to stop you from going there again?

Originally Posted by sickwithworry
onlyUcan et.al.,

I just sent her the NC letter with the instructions that this has to be done today. I am sure she is freaking and she has gone dark.

If she refuses to send it should I further expose? I know OM's boss, he is the president of the company and one of my dad's best friend. Her group of "friends" are friends of them both.

Should I drop the bomb all at once if she refuses NC letter?

sww,

I don't think I've posted to you yet, but I've kept up with your story. Seriously ... if she won't agree to write and let you send a NC letter, regardless of her lame excuses, then you show her the door.

How could you look at yourself in the mirror and do otherwise???
MyRevelation,

My thoughts exactly. Thanks you, feels good to have a pair finally in all this.

I'll let you know what happens.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/10/08 04:12 PM
I don't know if anymore exposing will make a difference. I think that if she refuses the NC letter, you should make a timeline to complete your Plan A (you might feel like you are done) and start on your plans for Plan B.

Those are Dr. Harley's plans and so you know you will be following an expert. Plan A, then Plan B.

Plan B is meant to protect any love you have left for the WIFE and not have contact with the WAYWARD ONE. Maybe one day she will get it and be grateful that you cared enough to follow through.

I hope she sends it and chooses into reconciling, either way you go it's going to be difficult.

We're here with ya!
SWW,

I agree with OnlyUcan. She either does the NC letter or the deal's broken and you go to Plan B. She is resisting for some reason. It may be that she wants to keep that door open, it may be that she is too wayward to get that it is the right thing to do for your M. Whatever the reason, no NC letter means no recovery.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/10/08 05:51 PM
To many pages to go through and I do not remember who you exposed.

I hope that you have exposed to WW parent's and siblings.

"I know OM's boss, he is the president of the company and one of my dad's best friend. Her group of "friends" are friends of them both"

I would expose to the OM's boss and her group of friends.
I would do it regardless of if she sent a NC letter.

Expose OMW/GF? Why not? Do it now!
TheRoad,

Did not expose to parents, siblings but exposed to close friends of hers that that live in our city and have a lot of influence on her and strongly dissapprove.

Did not expose to OM GF because they were not dating at the time, they had broken up. Verified this through a freind of OM. Did not expose further as she came clean once busted and initial exposure took place, promised it was over and would make changes.

Her friends have exerted enormous pressure on her, some coming over nearly everyday and then talking to me as well. If she was going to knock it off completely and was sorry I did not see the need to further expose her A.

Now we are possibly stuck on the NC letter. She is going to call me back in a minute.
Posted By: MrsZonie Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/10/08 06:19 PM
SWW,
I’m glad I could help. I should mention that I didn’t write the NC letter for a long time after d-day, it was about a month after. We didn’t know about Marriage Builders at d-day time, so the way I broke it off with the OM is I called him about 3 days after d-day to tell him that I could not talk to him anymore. His response was “I’ll be here if you need me.” A whole month passed, and then he sent me a text message from his phone to my work computer (so that Mr. Z wouldn’t see it) and he asked about the photo printer I have in my office (I work in graphic design). It was something to the effect of, “what kind of printer is that you have there in the back that prints 16x20 photos?”

By that time, Mr Z and I had learned about Marriage Builders so I knew about the NC letter. I did not reply to the OM’s text, what I did was I immediately forwarded the text to Mr. Z and then called Mr. Z right away. I offered to write the NC letter that night because I realized that I hadn’t been firm enough with the OM to ensure no contact. I wrote the letter at work and sent it to Mr. Z. via email, and then he gave me his feedback on what he wanted removed and added. My letter was pretty long, but I think our situation was different. When I got home that night, I hand wrote the letter, gave it to Mr. Z again to review it, and he put it in the mail. I can post it if you’d like, but like I said, it’s pretty long. However, it did the trick. He has not attempted any kind of contact since then, and it’s been about three months since the letter was sent.

But to answer your concern about your WW not having feelings for the OM, I have to say that she is in denial about that. She is saying she doesn’t have feelings for him so that you won’t be upset with her about contacting him. She may not have “love” feelings for him, it’s probably anger, and she feels rejected, and she wants to feel better about herself. She wants to know if he still has feelings for her, even if it doesn’t go anywhere. To put it succinctly, she is looking for a fix. She thinks the fix will make her hurt go away. It’s kind of like crack, you’re always looking for that euphoric feeling, even though the crack leaves scars on your face and ravages your body, you still hope that it will feel better this one last time. Think of the OM as the crack dealer and your ww is the junkie. Right now, she views the NC letter as removing the crack dealer from her life, and she’s feeling incredibly anxious about that because she isn’t ready to let go of the source of her addiction. But, you have to take control of the situation (which is what you’re doing). Just know she isn’t going to like it and she is going to resent it for awhile.

On another note, I was reading my earlier post to you and I was thinking that I must have come across like Mr Z and I are practically recovered. But, that’s totally not the case. We are still struggling and I’ve still got a lot to learn about how I interact with people. I’m learning that I have an intense need for approval, validation, and admiration from men, and I get that by feeding the male ego. This whole experience has caused me to examine my day to day behavior and Mr. Z is not very pleased with me at the moment.

Anyway, keep it up, your doing great and I know this has got to be tough for you.

-Mrs Z
MrsZonie,

OMG!!! You are exactly like my wife!

you said (sorry don't know how to do those boxes:)

" But to answer your concern about your WW not having feelings for the OM, I have to say that she is in denial about that. She is saying she doesn’t have feelings for him so that you won’t be upset with her about contacting him. She may not have “love” feelings for him, it’s probably anger, and she feels rejected, and she wants to feel better about herself."

I think you are exactly right! She says she "doesn't have love feelings for him, never really did" but I can hear in her voice how she is protecting him. She is worried NC letter will hurt his "feelings."

I told her if you say you were sleeping with him when you didn't have love feelings for him then, and now you are saying I don't have to worry about your sleeping with him again because you don't have love feelings for him now, how do I feel comfortable you won't just go back there when he breaks up with GF.

She sounded confused and couldn't say anything for a minute, AND THEN...

With a real sound of sadness and resignation in her voice she said, in response to my above comment, "Well, I hear he's shopping for a ring, so I guess it doesn't really matter..."

You said:

"Right now, she views the NC letter as removing the crack dealer from her life, and she’s feeling incredibly anxious about that because she isn’t ready to let go of the source of her addiction."

I think exactly, i just got a textbook fogbabble set of reasons why she should not write the letter as it was worded.

1. It's so cold.
2. It's cruel.
3. It will hurt him.
4. It wasn't his fault.
5. Why do you always have to get what you want exactly when you want it?
6. I can't be forced into doing something, you know that!
7. Why don't we write it together when you get home this weekend, make it a little less harsh.
8. You want me to do something beacuse YOU WANT IT!
9. So much of this is your fault!!!
10. Well it won't do any good he's in the Bahamas. (me: send it anyway.) Her: NO!
11.blah, blah, blah

She is going to see an IC tomorrow to try to "sort out her feelings" (something that is anathema to her) she wants to know if our relationship is a mistake and she is just prolonging it. She went from nice to furious to nice to furious etc. etc. I think she wants IC to tell her not to write the letter.

Then she dropped this one! "I am sorry, but I still don't know if what I did was wrong." I know you don't want to hear that but it's the way I feel.

I said "I thenk you for telling me the truth, but, you are telling me that you decided to start sleeping with another man because you were pi**ed at me and decided we were separated and that's not wrong? You lied, covered up, lied to your friends, your kids, me everyone, screwed another man while we were married and you still don't know if it's wrong???"

"If you had shred of integrity or honesty you would have said, BS, I am sorry but I cannot live this way, I am filing for D. You would have gotten a divorce and THEN you would have been free to do whatever you wanted with your integrity intact."

She had no response except, "well....." long silence.

You said:

" I’ve still got a lot to learn about how I interact with people. I’m learning that I have an intense need for approval, validation, and admiration from men, and I get that by feeding the male ego."

Oh my gosh, my WW to a TEE! She CRAVES Male attention and has been willing to sleep with men she is not in love with, ONS to get attention. She HAS to be the center of attention.


I truly fell like I should write a chapter for a book on this topic. My WW's A, her behaviour, her reactions, her lies, her fogbabble, EVERYTHING is EXACTLY WHAT Y'ALL SAID!!!

She is like a train going down the tracks and at this point she can't go left or right, she HAS to keep going straight along the script, she has no choice.

Only thing is, she is the only one that doesn't know the script!

Posted By: MrsZonie Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/10/08 08:23 PM
SWW,
I agree that she is looking to the IC to tell her not to send the letter. My MC was practically anti-marriage. She was very critical of Mr Z’s snooping and thought his exposure was all about gaining power, as if gaining control over your marriage is a bad thing. She also said that my A was very normal reaction to my husband’s bad behavior. She gave me lots of approval and wanted to be my IC so that she could help me build back my self-esteem. I actually considered it too, but Mr Z was very against it. I was willing to pay lots of money to have “professionals” tell me what I wanted to hear.

It’s a good thing we found Marriage Builders. I do think I need IC as well, but I’m going to research it carefully and make sure that the IC is consistent with MB concepts. I’m certain that my need for attention stems from the destructive relationship I had with my father and older brother. I recognize that my current actions are my own doing, but I need to get over this need for attention.

If your ww’s IC can help with her issues, that would be very helpful, but your marriage needs to come first. Have you shown her these boards?

Let me know if you would like to see my NC letter. I will show you the parts that Mr. Z asked me to add. I have to say that by the time I decided to write the letter, I was ready to do it, and I was ready to be harsh. Had I been asked to write it a month earlier, I would have resisted too. I’m not saying you should delay it though.

Mrs Z
MrsZonie,

Please let me see the letter.

Thank you, you are a big help!
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Then she dropped this one! "I am sorry, but I still don't know if what I did was wrong." I know you don't want to hear that but it's the way I feel.

sww,

The more I consider your situation, the more I think you should RUN from this W. She will only be misery to any man she comes in contact with after the initial honeymoon period wears off.
Posted By: MrsZonie Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/10/08 09:11 PM
Here it is! I know it’s long, but this letter worked because it was obvious to him that it came from me. The parts Mr. Z asked me to add are in italics. You’ll see that I’m affiliated with the military because there is a reference to a Dining Out.

I got your text message today and decided to write you a letter as opposed to an email. I promised Mr. Z that I would report any attempts on your part to contact me, no matter how innocuous that text message may have seemed. I sent your message to him and I decided it was best that I write this letter so that you are completely clear on where I stand and what I need to do.

I didn’t consider Mr. Z and my daughter at all when I decided to have an affair with you. When I told Mr. Z about it, the devastation it caused him was immense beyond words. I deceived him for over a year, I betrayed his trust, and showed no respect for him as a man or as my husband. I promised to care for him for life, and I dumped all over that promise. He hardly knows me anymore. I have revealed to him every aspect of the affair I had with you and I have stopped all of the lies. This meant I had to come clean on the timeframe, about what we did the day you cleaned out your office, the unprotected sex, the Dining Out, and all of the details. These confessions, as you can imagine, crushed him and almost caused him to leave me, but I had to tell him the entire truth in order to help him believe that I will never lie to him again. I love Mr. Z deeply, and now I can say I love him honestly.

Despite all of the pain that he has experienced because of this affair in all its details, he wants us to be together. It is going to take a lot of time to regain his trust, but I want to rebuild our marriage. To do that, I promised Mr. Z that I would not contact you ever again. I also need for you to not contact me - ever.

That simple text message you sent seemed innocent, but honestly, you don’t need any information from me about printers. You have internet access and you know we use Epson. If I replied to your text, I would be opening up a dialog that I promised Mr. Z I would never have. I’m done with lying and pretending that a friendship with you is possible or even desirable.

You did not lose anything because of this affair, you could continue on with your relationship like nothing ever happened. I, on the other hand, risked and almost lost everything. You must be aware that if you try to contact me now, you are putting me and my marriage at risk.

-Sincerely,
Mrs. Z
Not to dis Mrs. Z cos I think your letter is awesome...but I have heard people mention that the letter should be concise. I tend to agree because it doesn't allow for more fodder for the OP to use.

I don't know. My H wrote one that was about 10 sentences long...half a page hand-written. It didn't say much, but it said what was important. Sometimes I think that is stronger than an in-depth explanation (no offense again Mrs. Z...just a different perspective).

HTM
I can't remember if I posted this to you before or not. Here's a different letter...just to see the options. My H wrote this with some basic guidelines:

OW,

I love and respect my wife and children. I want to protect my marriage and rebuild my relationship with my wife. I will never communicate with you again nor accept any communications from you. What I have done is hurtful to my wife and everyone involved. No one deserves this kind of hurt. There is no need to go point counter point, the affair is over.

H


It is simple yet to the point. H told me afterward that he struggled with it more so because he knew that it was not just for OW but also for me. He told me that he may want to write another letter later...for me.

HTM
Posted By: MrsZonie Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 02:21 AM
No worries HTM! I know the letter is long. I just felt it was necessary for my situation, but I didn't ask any opinions before I sent it. It did do the job though!
Mrs Z...do you have a thread of your own? I would love to see your take on things. Our stories and timelines are similar (only reversed roles). It might help me to understand my H better.
Posted By: MrsZonie Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 03:54 AM
HTM,
I have lots of them. My story is pretty despicable, here is my first post:
I'm the WS and lied to "protect him"

Then there's this one, which hurt Mr. Z a lot, as it shows my withdrawal phase:
WW needs to talk. Need some ears and your thoughts

This was like a kick in the gut to Mr. Z:
As the FWW, do I allow abuse from BH?

This post is where I started to reveal the lies I had been telling:
Confession from a wayward

Finally, this one is about the depression I fell into:
Help! Both stuck in well of depression-Lala, MrsW?
you ALL are so awesome.

I would have jumped off a cliff without you. Got a 2 hour meeting and i'll give you the details when i get back.

Thank you so much.

Wife's IC emailed me (she was my IC as well) about upcoming WW session for background. she is very pro-marriage and does not believe snooping, NC letter etc. is a bad idea.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Wife's IC emailed me (she was my IC as well) about upcoming WW session for background. she is very pro-marriage and does not believe snooping, NC letter etc. is a bad idea.

Your WW's IC might be pro-marriage, but she knows nothing about affairs.

SWW, There is no "perfect" NC letter that will please your WW right now. B/c SHE doesn't want to send one.

She doesn't think it was wrong, and doesn't want to hurt OM.

Which means that either the A is still on going....or she hopes to one day rekindle it again.

She's lying to you about her feelings for OM. Obviously she cares about him otherwise she wouldn't care what he thought of the NC letter.

I noticed that you still haven't moved back home. Why is that?

Have you talked to your WW about relocating?

If you want to R your M, you need to be home every night.

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 12:54 PM
Also, as long as OMGF goes unexposed, (even if they were on a "break") your WW will remain in contact.

She cannot continue to hang out w/ his friends...including his GF.

She cannot continue to travel in his circles.



No Marsh you are right,

She as much as admitted she had feelings for him and I think feels rejected. I am moving back home, we discussed it and I will be back in the house when I go home on weekends which i am now doing every weekend. I have a job interview but it is not until August.

She told me yesterday, "I still am not sure what I did was wrong, I am sorry because I know you don't want to hear that."

She is still in the fog. Mrs. Z's post nailed her head on. She is hoping IC will tell her don't worry about NC letter etc. That is why she is going.

WW goes back and forth and is really inconsistent. I understand full well that she has secret hopes of rekindling the A, and how important NC letter is and the enlistment of her friends in this and my ultimately moving home with a new job for good.
Posted By: MrsZonie Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 06:06 PM
SWW,
Part of your WW’s withdrawal is her grief over the loss of her A. She knows intellectually that Charlie was harmful, but she is struggling with the rejection. She is probably wondering if his GF is going to stick around, and she is afraid that any chance of getting back with him will be lost if you send that letter. Clearly the guy is a jerk, but right now she can’t see that. She may also want to look for reasons not to love you right now, so all of your Plan A actions are making it hard for her to make a case against you. That’s why she wants you to “lighten up.” I don’t know how long her withdrawal phase will last, but the NC letter will force her to throw away the crack pipe.

If she establishes NC, including not talking to the OM’s friends, her withdrawal symptoms will subside and over time you will become her hero. She is keeping contact with the OM through mutual friends, and that doesn’t help at all. She needs to stop talking to them.

Right now she is also wondering if she wants to stay in the marriage. The very beginning of withdrawal clouds wayward thinking so much that we view saving the marriage as a jail sentence. I know that’s got to be tough to hear.

I went through all of those emotions. It’s hard to believe, but once the fog lifted, I fell in love with Mr. Z again; I didn’t think that was possible. His enormous character floors me to the point where now I feel I don’t even deserve him. He put aside his pride and took me back, and that speaks volumes about the incredible man that he is. Although I feel unworthy, I’m holding on to him and I’m trying to be the wife he deserves.

I hope your WW will see that in you. If she does, your marriage will survive.

-Mrs Z
MrsZonie

So I guess I continue plan A till she tells me about NC letter. I found out today by looking at cell records that she lied about not talking to him for a month. She told me 6 July that she hadn't talked to him for a month, I see call all the way up to 20 June, the end of the billing cycle.

I also see most of their calls are for 2-3 mins. Less than half an hour after I told WW I knew for sure and was close to home (even sent her proof of one of her raunchy texts) she called him for 38 mins, longest phoncon ever.

Maybe Charlie does know I know and WW isn't telling me. Why?

Prob very stupid question, if so forgive me.
MrsZonie

WW told me every time they had SF it was at charlie's aprtment. I just found out five minutes ago he has a roomate!

She told me she kissed him one time in the car going to get beer but that was it, all other times at the apartment...
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 07:34 PM
I don't want to scare you....but I also think Charlie may be using rejection as a tool to get your wife moving.

OM will "break-up" with their married affair partner...then start dating as a means to make them jealous. If she "hears" that Charlie is shopping for a ring, it instantly makes her feel unimportant and insignificant. So right now she is CRAVING an opportunity to make those feelings go away. She wants nothing more than another contact with him so that she can feel superior/admired/wanted to his GF.

Charlie might be intentionally baiting your wife with this "GF".

She is soooo resistant to the NC letter because she probably is not totally convinced she won't ever see or talk to him again. To put that in writing makes her look foolish (she thinks...)
Or it makes her look controlled.
In other words, she wouldn't mean what she is saying....so she doesn't want to say it.

I guarantee her verion would look completely different than what you've proposed!
I think you need to put a timeline on the NC letter. She's stalling and whatever the reason is, the bottom line is that she is refusing to end all contact with Charlie. State the timeline as an I statement "I need to send the NC letter by 10am on Monday morning. Can you finish it by then? If not, I need to rethink our recovery." It isn't as much an ultimatum (although she'll hear it as such) as it is a statement of your plan. Then if she doesn't have it finished by 10am Monday morning, you send her the Plan B letter. You don't need to sit and wait longer than you want to. You are giving her all of the control by doing that. She either will do it or she won't.

I hate to say it but I'm not convinced that she isn't still contacting him...maybe trying to convince him to stay with her.

I think you're right that she probably told him that you know. There's no reason for her not to. If she tells him then he can be better prepared for anything you bring his way and he can help her to go deeper underground.

Also, when she continues to ask you about or defend her reasons not to send the NC letter, become a broken record. "I need to send the letter by 10am Monday morning or I need to rethink our recovery." Don't engage her in a debate about it. You have stated why it is important. She KNOWS why it needs to be done. Discussing it further will give her the impression that you are willing to negotiate on this and you are not.

Remember...I statement, broken record, follow-through.

HTM
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 07:36 PM
Can you look at your cell calls online???
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
So I guess I continue plan A till she tells me about NC letter.

Wait a minute ... YESTERDAY you said that if she wouldn't send the NC letter, then you had your answer and would proceed to Plan D. Now after 24 hours of more disrespect, you're giving her an open ended timeline, while you continue to be her doormat, while she continues to cake-eat and humiliate you even more.

WHY??????
MyRevelation,

easy.

she said she wants to write it with me this weekend. I think she is stalling but I am going to give her the chance to write it. If she refuses then yes, show her the door.

We are going to talk about NC letter as soon as I get home. Sorry, that was taken a little out of context, prob poor wording on my part.
Did I miss something? When did Plan D come into play? I thought it goes, Plan A...Plan B...

Sorry. If you have already jumped to Plan D then I guess you have your answer if she refuses the NC letter. It's a shame though...I don't know you both well enough to pass judgment, but I feel like you could probably bring her back around with Plan B.

HTM
I guess I should add "hopeless romantic" to my tagline. smirk
hicktownmommy,

no i wont file for divorce right away if no NC letter, I will start plan b. Mrs Z said it took her a month to write hers, I am not going to march in there, demand it be done today, OR ELSE,

BUT

It MUST be done soon.
Lexxxy,

If things were going fine before why go to that kind of trouble.

Break up with her and then date to make her jealous, for what, so they can get back together??? I don't understand the logic unless its one big cruel mind game.

I'm confused. I think it might be more likely she scared him, a single dude 35, with a married chick with two kids to feed and he wanted to drive her off, but hey maybe that's wishful thinking on my part.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 07:55 PM
Depends on how long their "affair" had been going on, and if he wanted more from her.

Its possible that he was giving her ultimatums about leaving you.
Maybe she was stalling, dragging her feet, not really sure about a divorce.

So....he breaks it off with her and promptly gets new GF. Its all really just a ploy to get WW moving the right direction.
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
hicktownmommy,

no i wont file for divorce right away if no NC letter, I will start plan b. Mrs Z said it took her a month to write hers, I am not going to march in there, demand it be done today, OR ELSE,

BUT

It MUST be done soon.

I'm sorry, but that's just incomprehensible to me. Your WW is still in contact with the OM and you're allowing her to dictate terms to YOU of when SHE decides to go NC. Way to "Man Up" to the situation.

Also, you should probably read some of Mr. Z's thread before you go taking WW advice from Mrs. Z. She is NOT someone to be emulated in this situation. Granted, she is coming around now, but earlier on when she was where you are now, she was causing a LOT of needless pain to her BH through her actions and deceit, JUST like your WW is now, and Mr. Z is dealing with a lot of residual unnecessary pain because he didn't take the actions that you are being advised to take now.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 07:56 PM
And can't you look at your current cell phone usage online???

I use AT & T and I just looked at my calls through today.
Posted By: bitbucket Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
no i wont file for divorce right away if no NC letter, I will start plan b.

So if you go to plan B, are you going to get the kids and bring them back to live with you? Or take them to live with your family?
Posted By: MrsZonie Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 08:15 PM
My Rev,
You're right, he shouldn't take advice from me. I was just offering perspective about his WW's state of mind.

SWW,
It took me a month to write the letter, but Rev is right, don't use that as a reason to stall writing the letter. Also, I agree with what one poster said, HTM I think, that your WW has told the OM that you know so that he will be more careful about how he contacts her. As I mentioned, the OM in my situation texted me from his phone to my work computer to hide it from Mr Z.

Use my posts as information into what your ww is thinking. And, do take a look at Mr. Z's posts, especially the earlier ones. You know that post I sent to HTM a few pages back? If you look at the last link on that page, there is also a link to Mr. Z's first post.

Updated: Just found his post, it's called
When does the lying and the pain end?
Originally Posted by MrsZonie
MR Rev,
You're right, he shouldn't take advice from me. I was just offering perspective about his WW's state of mind.

SWW,
It took me a month to write the letter, but Rev is right, don't use that as a reason to stall writing the letter. Also, I agree with what one poster said, HTM I think, that your WW has told the OM that you know so that he will be more careful about how he contacts her. As I mentioned, the OM in my situation texted me from his phone to my work computer to hide it from Mr Z.

Use my posts as information into what your ww is thinking. And, do take a look at Mr. Z's posts, especially the earlier ones. You know that post I sent to HTM a few pages back? If you look at the last link on that page, there is also a link to Mr. Z's first post.

Mrs.Z,

Thank you for taking my post with the proper attitude. I have no problem with truly "F" WW's ... in fact I'm very much in love with one, but you all are scary creatures when you're in the fog, and sww needs to understand the difference.

You see, sww, just because Mrs.Z is a rational person now, doesn't mean that she was and neither is YOUR WW.

You can be strong and have a shot at a good relationship with your WW, with just the normal post-infidelity issues to deal with, or you can remain her doormat and be one of the aimless, wandering, neutered, lost BH's that we see way too many of here.

In my 12 months here, I have NEVER heard the first BH say "I wish I had been a little more understanding with my WW during her A".

Think about THAT!!!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
MrsZonie

So I guess I continue plan A till she tells me about NC letter. I found out today by looking at cell records that she lied about not talking to him for a month. She told me 6 July that she hadn't talked to him for a month, I see call all the way up to 20 June, the end of the billing cycle.

I also see most of their calls are for 2-3 mins. Less than half an hour after I told WW I knew for sure and was close to home (even sent her proof of one of her raunchy texts) she called him for 38 mins, longest phoncon ever.

Maybe Charlie does know I know and WW isn't telling me. Why?

Prob very stupid question, if so forgive me.

Of course she called him as soon as you discovered it.

She wanted to forwarn him b/c she wasn't sure what you might do.

She's lying to you, SWW.

And she will continue to do so as long as you let her.

I don't believe the A is over.

What's your plan?

The carrot side to Plan A will not end the A.



























Quote
Break up with her and then date to make her jealous, for what, so they can get back together??? I don't understand the logic unless its one big cruel mind game.

Because the drama is 50% or more of the thrill of an affair? Who knows? Shouldn't matter WHY OP does anything. Right?

I'm in the camp of she's either still hoping to resume the affair or the affair never ended.
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
The carrot side to Plan A will not end the A.


Abso-stinkin-lutely!

That is what I am trying to get across. You need to start EXPECTING her to hold up her side of the recovery. It doesn't mean that she has to, but every action has a consequence and she needs to know that if she does not end contact with OM then you will ask her to leave until she does.

It is a deal-breaker. She needs to choose. And it is NOT unreasonable for you to ask her to do this.

If she is really done with OM and committed to your recovery, then she will write the letter. If she cannot write it...let her feel the consequence of her actions.

BTW...I'm glad it was clarified as to why not to listen to Mrs. Z because I think that she has added a lot of important insight. Just as a butcher can tell you how to dress a chicken, she knows the inside of a wayward mind better than a BS will ever know.

everybody,

I am out of gas.

I could not get a car at the military base, they were out. no car for the weekend. predictably text WW:

ME: cant gt a car, do you still want me to come home?

WW: Maybe you better wait. I cant get in to see IC till wednesday and i cant help you with the car situation.

I don't know where you BS's found the strength, i honestly dont. i really don't. I guess I'll tell her I either see the NC letter Monday or I don't know. what kind of threats can I issue from DC. I cant cut them off financially bc of the kids schools etc. I am without power. I am not sure i need help anymore. I need to get home now, but if i just leave, who wants to hire an intelligence officer and pay him 200k a year.

It's easy to say, no matter what get home, but I cant use my skills to get a job unless this thing comes thru in august.

I am pretty sure WW if i threaten will just say "do what you have to do."

So i guess i have to figuer that out.

How, how, how can one human being be so cruel to another?

I am about beyond caring
I am SO sorry for your pain. I know it all too well. And I don't know where you find the strength to stay...

You do still have power, even from DC. You can request the letter by Monday or rethink recovery. If she doesn't do it, then you can begin Plan B (or Plan D if you want).

The real world dictates that it isn't possible for you to move back without a job. Could you ask for a personal leave of absence? I don't know what the requirements are, but maybe that would work. As for this weekend, could you rent a car for the weekend? Could you ask WW to come to you?

Do not give up your power. You have choices and every choice gives you power.
hicktownmommy

thanks but she would never come to me. it is a 10 hour drive home to a woman that doesn't want to see me. I can take leave, maybe next week.

tell me what power i have? i dont see it except i have all the $ now.
sww,

WHAT A CROCK!!! Just more excuses so you don't have to deal with this.

You make $200K and you can't rent a frickin car for the weekend in DC. That's as pathetic of an excuse for doing nothing as I've heard here, and that's saying something.

I'm sorry, but its getting to the point where if you're not part of the solution then your CONTRIBUTING to the problem.

How does a MAN, especially a military man, NOT have the testicular fortitude to stand up for himself and/or his M??? Are you so AFRAID to confront your WW that you would prefer to have her bang the OM all weekend instead???
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 09:47 PM
Quote
ME: cant gt a car, do you still want me to come home?

Why did you ask this question?

If she said, "Yes, I want you to come home very badly."

What would you have done?

Found a way home?

If you want to try to save your M, then get your [censored] home!

Take her out and have fun w/ her.

Don't just WORK around the house.

Flirt w/ her. Laugh w/ her.

And then at some point show her your phone bill and ask her to explain it.

And snoop.




In my home town on the military base that is secure!

Yeah, i lost my imagination there.
yes, i will go home tuesday for the rest of the week, flirt, be nice, snoop and ask about phone bill.

I have a meeting with asst secdef monday, i cant bolt, but i can leave tueday. thanks for helping me man up.

checking out for the night.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/11/08 09:59 PM
I agree MyRev.

SWW is letting his emotions get the best of him.

SWW,

You can change this sitch. That's what MB is all about. Do you think your sitch is worse than anyone else's?

How much is your M worth to you? How about a cut in pay?

You must know that other people w/ alot less income than you have R their M, right?

If I were you, I'd take a serious inventory on my life and decide what is most important to me and than act accordingly.

You have much more to offer your WW than money. And your WW wants more than that too. She fell in love w/ you once, when you weren't meeting her FS needs.

She can fall in love w/ you again.

But, you have to believe you are more than a pay check.

You are, you know.



Amen, marshmallow.

You have the power to decide what YOU DO. That is the power that you HAVE. Nobody can MAKE you do anything. Your decisions are your power.

You need to decide if you are going to make excuses for why you cannot work on your M or get up and do something about it.

HTM
Well,

I manned up yesterday after hearing from you guys and gals. I called WW and told her NC letter by Monday 1000. She made excuses, going to counselor, not ready etc.

So, I said f it and i called charlie (OM). answer machine, left message, called his work same thing. So i texted him, he answers back and basically makes fun of me or thinks i am joking with him.

I wait and I guess he got my angry phone message and he calls me. He sounds very nervous.

OM: BS, what's going on here?

Me: You know full well whats going on here charlie so dont even start with me, you have been f'ing my wife! I have your texts, emails, phone records everything!

OM: What!??

ME: Bullcrap, I know, she has admitted the whole thing to me. Let me ask you, do you want to marry her or something?!

OM: I do not know what you are talking about BS, I have NEVER been with WW!

ME: You are full of ****! Let me tell you how this is going to be, are you listening?

OM: Yes.

ME: You are going to never speak, text, email anything with her again! No going to hang out at friends house. If she is there, you leave, if she arrives you leave, if you see her, you run and do not ever speak to her again! You can have one phone call or text and it is to be short where you say we can't talk any more leave me alone. Agreed.

OM: Yes, okay. Look, BS, we have known each other since we were kids. WW calls me all the time, and we talk, she unloads a lot of her probs on me, but we have never been together. I don't think there is anything i can say though to convince you of that.

ME: I saw the one text "my crotch is sore clear up to my stomach, strong effort charlie!" WTFO?

OM: I have never, ever been with WW BS. I will do whatever you say, but i don't know why she would say that.

ME: If I find out you have not honored our agreement ther will be hell to pay for you!

OM: I undersatnd.

ME: click.

WW texted me later, so itext back, i had a nice chat with your boyfriend. He denied the whole thing, guess you weren't that important, he is worried now about his new relationship.

WW FREAKS! My phone ringing off the hook, frantic texts "What happened, what have you done???"

I said I slammed a door shut that you were unwilling to slam shut. It's done.

I call her and she is so angry she can barely speak. "How could you do this?! Why couldn't you have waited for me to visit IC on wednesday. YOU HAVE RUINED EVERYTHING! I AM FILING FOR D ON MONDAY! WHAT AM I GOING TO SAY TO MY FRIENDS???!"

I have to say, that my WW has always been a pathological liar. Charlie, for all i hate him, sounded genuinely shocked. I am wondering whether she made this whole thing up? I know, that sounds assanine. Why? You guys don't know my WW like I do, she has done weird crap like this before, just not on this scale.

To believe she had an A with charlie is to have to beleive her. I still do for now. But right now I am wondering.

If she caused me this much pain for a lie, i will not be able to move on with her. I am sure right now she is covering her tracks. She knows I come home thursday, we'll see about the D papers. I sorta hope u guys are right and it's mostly bluster, but who knows.

Have a meeting with a friend who is a headhunter friday, i will take a cut in pay if that's what's necessary to get home.

whew...
Well, I guess that's one way to go about it. My worry is that because WW did not tell Charlie that NC needs to be in place, Charlie isn't going to honor your request (other than out of fear for his life).

Your WW is angry because you took her dealer away. That's the way all addicts respond. Roll with it. It will blow over.

I still think you need to accept that she was with this guy. She may be a pathalogical liar, but she SENT him incriminating messages. He would have been able to tell you that she was sending him weird messages, but he denied it all. You already KNOW that she sent the messages. His denial is just that...denial.

Don't let your desire to believe that your WW didn't f#* some other guy get in the way of the truth. You know that it's true. There is too much evidence to support it. I went through the same thing. We don't want to believe that our spouse would do these things to us so we hang on to the tiniest shred of hope that it's not true...even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

If your WW files for D, then I guess it's done. If she doesn't, and you want to move forward with recovery, then I think you need to continue Plan A and see if WW comes around. Eventually SHE needs to write a NC letter, but it doesn't sound like that will happen anytime soon.

Think of your WW as possessed by a demon. She CHOSE to allow the possession (I won't let a WS off on that one), but now she is trapped within it. She is NOT your wife. She is acting out of possession. You need to look at her as if she needs your help to return. That's what Plan A is meant to do...break the spell of the A and show the better alternative.

sww,

GREAT JOB!!!

It feels good doesn't it??? ... to take back some measure of control over your life.

OM and WW are liars plain and simple ... its what they do. You now have OM by the "short and curlys" and he knows it. My guess is your problem with OM is nearly (if not completely) over ... he has a new relationship and doesn't want or need the drama that comes with your WW and her NOW pissed off militarily trained BH.

Now, your WW needs to go NC with the new GF also, which shouldn't be too hard, once she realizes that OM has now thrown her away to save himself. Actually, that is the reason for her hissy-fit, she KNOWS (or its starting to sink in) that you just turned the lights on and the roaches are scrambling back into the darkness.

Watch for her trying to reestablish contact over the next few days. FogFree has been as good of a FWW after D-Day as you could hopefully expect, but she backslid and tried to contact OM for "closure" (yeah, right wink ) on D-Day + 1, and again on D-Day + 3, so you can bet she will TRY.

In my case OM was too scared to return her attempts, and it sounds like you may be just as lucky, but its better to be safe than sorry.

Once you feel how good it feels to stand up for yourself to your WW, and the advantages to be gained with this strategy, I doubt you will revert to doormat status again.

CONGRATULATIONS again on rediscovering your strength of character.

I raise my glass to you, SIR!!!
Originally Posted by hicktownmommy
My worry is that because WW did not tell Charlie that NC needs to be in place, Charlie isn't going to honor your request (other than out of fear for his life).

Don't ever underestimate the power of FEAR.

OM are traditionally COWARDS ... and seriously, is there much in this life to be more afraid of than a PISSED off BETRAYED HUSBAND???
I love the alternating "caring, sensitive" with "man up" responses that you are getting. I think it gives you a VERY complete picture of recovery.

I am proud to stand in the company of such manly men...even if I'm a girly girl.

HTM
"is there much in this life to be more afraid of than a PISSED off BETRAYED HUSBAND???"

I beg to differ...but I think a pissed off betrayed WIFE may be worse.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/12/08 04:38 PM
Hmmmm, I don't know what to think, SWW.

Do you really think she made all of this up?

What about the text? Surely she never expected you to find that.

But, his reaction coupled w/ hers makes me wonder. Why would her first thoughts be about her friends? She does expect him to call them.

Total weirdness.

If she made this up for attention, she has got to be a very sick woman.

Cruel beyond anything I can comprehend.

I applaud you for calling him though.











Originally Posted by hicktownmommy
"is there much in this life to be more afraid of than a PISSED off BETRAYED HUSBAND???"

I beg to differ...but I think a pissed off betrayed WIFE may be worse.

It may be perspective, but I bet OM "Charlie" is much more AFRAID right NOW of sww than he is of his BGF, if she finds out, which brings us to another topic.

sww,

Now would be the PERFECT time to follow up with exposure to Charlie's GF. That way Charlie will be much to busy dodging his GF's anger and won't have the time or will (with YOU watching now) to pursue anything with WW.

Also, this would have the 2 pronged effect of OMGF going NC with your WW, as I doubt she will want to be friendly once she realizes that she's been played for a fool by being friends with WW, while she was F'ing her BF.
Quote
You make $200K and you can't rent a frickin car for the weekend in DC. That's as pathetic of an excuse for doing nothing as I've heard here, and that's saying something.

Thanks MYREV, you took the words out of my mouth.
SWW, Are you [censored]**g me or what? 200k a year and you don't know how to get a car from Hertz or Avis? And you expect sane people arond here to believe that?

Good Grief!!!!!

all Blessings,
Jerry
MyRev...I agree wholeheartedly about BGF. SWW, if you can expose to her then you have got the tiger by the tail. It kills WW problem with friends, and it keeps OM very busy (while reiterating you're serious).

I still think you need to really LOOK at all of the evidence and try to accept that it happened. Doubting whether or not the A happened will make recovery WAY harder. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
shinethrough,

Let me put this to rest for all of you please. There is an enterprise rent a car place in the base ops terminal on the base, one only. I was hopping a military jet to the base, it's not an airport. The base is 10-12 hours from where i live by car.

The enterprise did not have a car for rent and it is 3 miles to the front gate. WW didn't really want me home this weekend anyway, i would have been without wheels.

Yes i guess i could have flown in, walked 3 miles to the front gate, called for a taxi, got home at midnight, got a taxi to a rental car place for a car for less than 24 hours and tried to see WW who didn't want to see me right now for a couple of hours.

OK, maybe I should have done it. I decided to call OM instead and throw a flash bang followed by live rounds into the situation instead.

If i was wrong, i was wrong, OK? I did not mean to imply that i am so helpless i cant find a car at an airport with 20 rental car places. Maybe i needed to explain my ssituation better.

thank you.
Marshmallow

hell no, they did it. he's a pus*y, scuse please. I thought about it more today and there's no way this aint true, WW is scared/po'd. Po'd because i slammed the door tight shut on her fantasy, and scared because it is coming out to her "friends".

I need to find out about who the OM GF is. I don't have eyes on to expose, so I guess i wait to hear about WW plan of action monday.

If she did make it up, yeah cruel beyond imagining, but i think about the condoms. that is something she would be sick enought to do to make me jealous, which is what IC said as well as her best friend. It's too much to consider though going down that road.

She tried to hide this, so it happened.
MyRevelation


"My worry is that because WW did not tell Charlie that NC needs to be in place, Charlie isn't going to honor your request (other than out of fear for his life)."

I really don't care if that's why he does it, but it's a good reason for him. I asked him if he knew who i worked for, he said yes and was pissing his pants. Told him he picked the wrong Intel Officer to F with.

If he is in contact with WW after our conversation I will be amazed, if he sees her again for SF, I won't even go there. But i dont think it will happen.

I don't think WW would have established NC for many weeks if ever, it was past time to take action.
hicktownmommy,

yea she is posessed alright! But, it feels good to be somewhat back in control for awhile.

AND, at least i know she wasn't banging this weekend before i could get home.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/12/08 08:29 PM
Got to expose to OM GF as soon as possible.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/12/08 08:45 PM
SWW your wife has probably been like this forever. You know, manipulating, lying, selfish, hurting others...etc.

Why do anything? Do you even want to BE with this woman?

You can do all the steps to keep her from this OM, but what do you have in the end???

You are left with a woman whos character is one of lying, cheating, not caring about you, only caring about her own pleasure, a woman who does not care about being a productive citizen or any of that.

**edit**
Hooray! Good job! OM is lying his a@@ off and he knows it and he knows you know it. Did you notice how he quickly backed down from that and moved into damage control mode?

Uh-uh. There was an affair. Your wife reacted EXACTLY as expected. She KNOWS now that the gig is TRULY up. Expect her to continue to be angry and then sad and then depressed and then angry as she REALLY goes through withdrawl. I don't think OM will be an issue anymore.

I agree. Find that GF and spill the beans to her as well.

Your exposure to OM was one of the best I've read on MB. Good for you! And EXCELLENT for the recovery of if not your marriage, your own personal recovery. I believe she'll come around though. The game is over.
SWW,
Some people here may be way too jaded to give constructive advice. Be careful that you do not let yourself fall victim to the rantings of someone who is obviously bitter.

Your WW is no different than any other WS here. YOU are the one who must decide if you can salvage your relationship. Somewhere inside of her is the woman you fell in love with and married. She is lost, but not for good. There is hope. She is not as wretched as some may want you to believe.

We here are not God, we cannot predict the future nor are we meant to pass judgment on the moral character of another person. YOU know your wife better than anyone here. Remember who she was and decide if THAT person is worth fighting for.

HTM
hicktownmommy,

I haven't tried to contact her since she screamed she was filing for D on monday. Should I call or email her and try to give her a flavor for where I am.

She need to think about the prospect of an ugly D on her children. Yes I know her better than anyone, and despite all this, she needs saving. She is like a child trying to jump off a cliff because he thinks it's good for him. I am holding onto her belt and she is clawing at my hands trying to fight to jump off.

I would love to tell her that with work things could be better than before if we meet each others EN. That we can have 40 more years of wonderful memories; the birth of our grandchildren, our kids weddings, so much!

I just don't know if in her current frame of mind it is the right thing to do to contact her now. I hate to wait till it's too late and she goes to lawyer tomorrow though, if she really intends to do that.

help...
princessmeggy,

I agree, OM is very scared and prob thinks WW is nuts to put him in this position by her admitting it. She is prob nuclear waste to him right now.

What would be the purpose though of exposing to charlie's GF? Wouldn't it just break them up making it easier for him to eventually hook back up with WW? Wouldn't it giver WW hope that he was single again?

I understand that she prob should know, but he'd argue they were broken up then.

Sorry if this is really dumb question?
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
What would be the purpose though of exposing to charlie's GF? Wouldn't it just break them up making it easier for him to eventually hook back up with WW? Wouldn't it giver WW hope that he was single again?

DON'T GO SOFT ON US NOW, sww.

You make progress when you ACT ... you screw up when you stand still and wring your hands.

I already explained the 2 pronged effect of exposure to the OMGF ... you get rid of OM AND OMGF all at the same time if you just share what you know with OMGF.

Trust the job you did on OM ... he's not coming back around now that you know what's up.

Quit pussyfooting around and trying to talk yourself out of doing something.
MyRevelation,

ok ok, just asking, sorry. I have to find out who she is first.

Thanks, also Myrev, Should I try to contact WW today to tell her to let things settle down a bit before rushing to lawyer tomorrow?

She may be bluffing, but i don't think she has thought thru the implications of her kids finding out she committed adultery on their dad.
It has been my experience that sooner is ALWAYS better than later.

You have mutual friends ... your WW has been having lunch, going to movies, etc. with the GF, SOMEONE you know, knows who the GF is and how to contact her.

It's Sunday, you have ALL day to snoop and expose. Call a friend who also knows OM and expose to friend and ask their help in finding out who OMGF is and how to contact.

Others may chime in with exposure ideas. Start snooping and check back in frequently to run your plans by the vets here.

YOU WILL BE VERY GLAD YOU DID!!!
SWW,

Sorry if my comment offended you the other day. I didn't realize the logistics of getting home, and couldn't understand how you could not get a rental car. My bad. You've got enough on your plate right now without something I said upsetting you further.

Stay in full snoop mode and continue to monitor. Lot's up folks throw up the D word and never follow through on that, so don't worry about tomorrow, unless, and until it actually happens.

The OMGF does have a right to know that the man she is with is a POS and has no problem being a predator with a married women. It's the very least she deserves to know, and in time, will probably thank you for that info. Let the conseqences of this fall squarely where it belongs; on the AP's heads.

Stay stong.

All Blessings,
Jerry
shinethrough,

no worries, i just prob didnt make it clear enough about the logistics and the car.

In snoop mode right now.

Yeah, she has gone very dark since I confronted OM and she lost her temper and said she was filing for D.

No response to the 2-3 texts i have sent. I am worried, but you know what, I am trying the best I can with you guys and gals help.

That's all I can do, and all you can do is all you can do.
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
shinethrough,
No response to the 2-3 texts i have sent. I am worried, but you know what, I am trying the best I can with you guys and gals help.

That's all I can do, and all you can do is all you can do.

REALLY??? (Extreme Sarcasm)

Quit jerking around texting your WW. It's of absolutely NO use, and furthermore, if she does respond it will be with more LIES and/or venom ... so why bother???

So you're doing all you can do ... BS!!!

Have you made the first call to find out the name and contact info of OMGF???

Have you made any plans to make sure that NC has not been broken???

Do you know if NC actually exists???

What are your plans should OM backslide and remain in contact with WW???

Are there other effective exposure targets???

WRINGING you hands and WORRYING are not effective strategies to accomplish anything ... unless your goal is to be a perenial doormat, which unfortunately many BH's view as an acceptable goal.

Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/13/08 05:05 PM
SWW,

Don't react to every post that you get and make a decision based on what "we" tell you what to do. Follow Dr. Harley's concepts and trust your instincts. You have done a great job thus far.

There's no need to try to text her and "change" her mind about what she's feeling, you can't do it. Read some more of your book today. Did you consider getting an appt. with the Harley's for yourself?

You know your situation better than anyone else. Continue to educate yourself. You're doing great!

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/13/08 06:31 PM
SWW,

Let WW stew in her own juices.

I don't believe she will file for D.

I'm a little hesitant about exposing to the GF though. Exposure works well when the other betrayed person is M to the OM. She would have more invested and would be more willing to fight for her WH.

The point to exposure is to tell people who will put pressure on the A couple to end the A. If OMGF breaks up w/ him, where's the pressure? There's nothing to stop him from picking up the pace w/ WW.

The problem is that as long as WW hangs out w/ OMGF there will be on going contact between WW and OM.

This would be a good question to ask Dr. Harley.

W/ regards to Tues. I hope to God, you are planning to move back home... Regardless of what she does on Mon.

You need to go home and tell WW that is where you belong.

Oh, and I agree w/ OUC, you need to call Dr. Harley.
Marshmallow,

I agree. Sorry Myrev, but i thought about this for awhile yesterday. The A is over, at least for now. OM Charlie is scared to death, both of me, my WW, and of my potential exposing to OMGF/fiance.

While I still have text messages, emails, phone records etc. all date stamped encoded etc. I have the power of his realtionship/marriage, maybe for the rest of his life.

If I expose it will do no good except to break them up. He has agreed to NC and I believe that is what he will do in light of the above circumstances.

I dont know what WW will do but she called last night and we had a nice chat. No A stuff. I don't know what she'll do today but she asked when i was going to be able to get back home. She is still PO'd but maybe a little bit less so. But who knows, she might be in lawyers office right now.

I got a job offer for a position 2.5 hours from home. Same money I am making now. If the job thing in August at home doesn't come thru I will take it to get closer. That way I can be home at least 3.5 days per week, maybe more with some driving effort.
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/14/08 04:07 PM
SWW,

You will decide who and when to expose. Regardless, you need OMGF's info. If/When is your decision, but you need that info, knowledge IS power.

In the future, when WW threatens you, DO NOT initate conversation, texting, etc... She feels in control when you do this.

Note: Mine went to the lawyer, drew up legal sep paperwork, and initated the D process, End result was a waste of money in lawyer fee's. She never followed thru. It was to scare me. When I signed and returned them, I got yelled at for not caring, she told me "This is what you wanted!".

My reply: "If that's what I wanted, I would have gone to the lawyer." Anyway back on track....

Plan A, but DO NOT be a doormat, do not appear weak.

-JKT

SWW,

All of this is excellent! Revel in the fact that YOU have created these opportunities with your actions.

WW is talking with you. That is a good sign. She was angry (and probably still is) but she will cool down and realize that you are still there trying to love her.

I almost think you should take the job that is 2.5 hours away just in case the one in August doesn't come through. Will this other offer still be there for sure in August? People here in L.A. commute that far EVERY day! It is very possible to do. Yes, it is a lot of driving, but it is do-able.

Keep Plan A going.

And I think you are probably right about OMGF. Hold that ace in your pocket in case OM doesn't keep up with his end of the bargain. At this point he has something to lose. But I do think that your WW needs to include OM's friends in the NC list.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/14/08 04:26 PM
SWW,

Are you still going home on Tuesday?

Will you move out of your father's home and back into YOUR home?

What fun things do you have planned to do w/ your WW when you get home?





Marshmallow,

thursday now, but i am taking off thru next tuesday. Yes I am moving back in even if it means sleeping in guest room. As for fun things, you're right I need to think about that.
Justkeeptrying,

you're right, that's why i felt so powerless when she didn't return my txts after she went into a rage. so i let it go and NC for 24 hours, then she started texting/calling me.

I have a "secret squirrel" friend that is getting me charlie's GF info today.

thanks
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/14/08 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Marshmallow,

thursday now, but i am taking off thru next tuesday. Yes I am moving back in even if it means sleeping in guest room. As for fun things, you're right I need to think about that.

Noooooooo, you move back into the bedroom.

YOUR bedroom.

If your WW doesn't want to sleep w/ you, SHE can sleep in the guest room.

Are there any comedy clubs near by that you could go to? It would do you both good to go out and laugh together.



HTM,

Yeah, OM was very worried that his GF would find out. I am going to use that to my advantage for now.

I already emailed the first job offer and told em I would take it once it opened up. They are flying up here next week, so we'll see. If it take it, it means I would have to give them notice that i was leaving to give them a chance to find someone else, which i could do. It's a Military Position but written in such a way that I can cut the assignment short.

I Feel SO GREAT ABOUT THIS. 3 hours is a lot better than 10!!! I can't wait to leave here and get closer to WW.

She is still in withdrawal and really PO'd at me, so plan A is a little dicey, not that I am being anything but nice, but I don't want to smother her right now right???
Plan A doesn't mean you have to bake her cookies. Just when she calls you or talks with you, make sure you are supportive and pleasant. If there are things that you can do that would be subtle and non-threatening...like a dozen red roses and a note "I love you"...

I agree, you don't want to smother her, but little reminders here and there are a good thing in my book. Even just a text saying "I love you. We can get through this."

You know what your WW will see as too much, but little reminders that you are still here and still love her and want this marriage may be a good way to keep her focused.

Just a thought, is there a train that commutes to where you would be working? You're on the east coast and I know there are lots of trains. That might make your commute shorter in length and more productive (you could work on the train). Something to look into.
hicktownmommy,

train great idea, we think alike, but, no. already checked, rats.

On the plan A thing, I just mean right now she is still so angry that i hesitate to even call her after confronting Charlie. I am kinda laying low for awhile till she files for D or gets over it. If she calls me great, if not I am letting her cool down.
marsh,

aye aye sir.

yes there are some, i'll go online and check them out, thats a good one.
How's it going SWW? Any progress with WW? Any news about her filing or not?

Just checking in...

HTM
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/16/08 03:59 AM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
marsh,

aye aye sir.

yes there are some, i'll go online and check them out, thats a good one.

If by "sir" you mean lovely lady, you'd be correct. LOL

See if you can surprise her by finding a babysitter too.

Have you thought about sending/buying her her favorite flowers? Or something you know she'll love? Her favorite candy? Favorite anything?

Step out of your box a little. Write her a poem? Funny and sweet?

Something that will make her do a double take at you.

Just throwing ideas out there.

It seems you are more comfortable "working" to show your love, but I'm betting she'd like to see more romance from you.

Don't over do it though. It's got to hit the right note. Something small but thoughtful is best.



























hicktownmommy,


SHOCKING NEWS, UPDATE, UPDATE!

Well I guess after considering it since yesterday afternoon I shouldn't be shocked at all, but I am still reeling.

Ok this will sound all too familiar, but I was paying my Sprint bill online yesterday and saw you could go back like 2 years.

I did on WW's phone. I am still reeling. From September 06 thru April of 07 WW started calling her old boyfriend from college, the one that she broke up with to go back with me.

She was calling him upwards of 15-20 times a day, mostly 7-8 times. Some of the talks were for 100-125 minutes. She would call him at say 0800, then 0815, then 0927, then 1115 and so on. She was calling in the early morning and late at night.

And I can only see the outgoing calls, the incoming calls just read "incoming" so who knows how often they talked. I was so trusting, she had a poker face on the whole time, I NEVER suspected a thing.

When I flew in from Naples IT in April of 07 she insisted on picking me up in ATL and bringing the kids with her instead of my hometown. I had to go to this OM's hometown for the weekend and she thought it would be great if she and the kids came along. I was the Commanding Officer of a unit in OM"s hometown.

At the time I thought it was a little strange, but I had no reason to really think about it. That month was the family picnic etc.

My wife has always HATED the Navy from my aviation squadron days when my drunk avaitor buddies used to get smashed and look down her dress. If any of you know Naval Aviation you know what i mean. Harmless but if you're not used to the community well...

Anyway as soon as we get to the city, she says she is going to the mall. I remember b/c she was acting weird. Now I know why, she was going to meet OM.

Anyway, after that the calls pretty much just stopped. cold, maybe 2-3 a month for 1-2 minutes and that's it.

I told her yesterday that I had now found out about another, that i was really upset but didn't want to talk. She started, of course with denial, then prob realized I had phone records (i didn't reveal source) and clammed up. She is going to IC today for the first time in her life.

I am really confused and broken apart here.

Any thoughts are welcome. Last night I was just done. This morning I am just thinking about getting thru today.

Marshmallow,

HAH! I thought you were a guy! Sorry, you have been so stiff with me (I needed it) I thought you were a man. Sounds pretty sexist doesn't it? I am very sorry. Please read the post I just made if u don't mind. I would love to hear your comments. I think flowers and poetry are not what's needed now.
Posted By: bitbucket Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/16/08 02:05 PM
Hey SWW -

Not to make your world any darker, but have you considered getting DNA tests on your kids to make sure they're biologically yours? Your WW may have been acting out for far longer than you're aware of.

Some guys want to know...some don't. For some it changes everything, and for others it changes nothing. But to me, having a complete picture is a good thing...just a thought.

bitbucket,

Nah, they look just like me, more me than her, but thanks.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/16/08 02:34 PM
I'm really sorry, SWW.

Were you living at home when this other A took place?

There are probably many secrets you don't know about.

If you think you still want to try to R your M, I'd demand that she take a lie detector test.

I'd want everything out on the table.

Why don't you give Dr. Harley a call? And ask him his opinion.
Marshmallow,

yeah i was living at home, i don't know how i couldn't have noticed other than it was mostly during the day. I wonder if his wife found out and that's why they broke it off.

My WW will no doubt try to spin it as my fault again, and I can see I surely wasnt filling her EN's, but he sure was doing a herculean job.

These are outgoing only, i don't know about incoming.

OCT 06 278 calls 2246 minutes 37 hours

NOV 06 356 calls 2817 minutes 46 hours

and on and on and on it goes.

She's going to IC today. I told her i hope it goes well and that I obviously wasn't meeting her needs but he was more than willing. Told her I wouldn't make that mistake ever again, with her or anyone else.

Sure wish she hadn't picked her old, now married with kids boyfriend though.

Well I feel good about myself...

The first was an ex-boyfriend who works for a state farm bureau in a very rural town in the grain elevator department.

The second is a 34 year old loser who lives in a 2 bedroom apartment in a building that looks like a college fraternity house with a roomate.

sigh...
Posted By: bitbucket Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/16/08 03:29 PM
Was ex-boyfriend/OM1 married at the time?
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/16/08 03:38 PM
SWW,

Sorry. I know what it's like dealing with a serial cheater, not fun.

They say that some people "affair down", not sure that even matters really. My WH's latest EA is with an OW that sounds retarded on the phone and she's old enough to be his mother. Go figure!

You're dealing with an addict here. And one that's not really wanting to OWN UP to the addiction. You have a really long road ahead of you.

Are you considering counseling with the Harley's when you move back to town with your WW?

It's extremely cruel of her to continue to blame you for her A's. That will wear on you and eventually you will lose (if you haven't already) much respect and love for her.

At least when you get back home with the job 3 hours away, you will be closer to your children for when and if you decide to do Plan D.

You may not even get all the answers you want from a lie detector. That's the crappy part.

SWW, start thinking about your own Personal Recovery Plan, your personal boundaries, what you want out of life and really ponder if it's with your WW.

I say that only because it's a long hard road with continued acting out and you don't want to be here 5 or 6 years from now singing the same song.

Take some committed action for YOU!

My thoughts and prayers are with you.
bitbucket,

yeah he was with kids. I can FEEL where this is going.
Two things come to mind. The first one is that you need to remember that your wife is still the same person...you just have more information about her now. I think that is only helpful in the sense that you don't need to negate EVERYTHING in your M from the time of the first A.

Secondly, you need to really ask yourself some HARD questions. Do you WANT to recover this M? Are you READY for the extreme pain that recovery will take? Do you feel like you will ever be able to come to a sense of peace with your WW?

Your WW's first A, while disturbing to say the least, doesn't make me think she's WORSE than someone who only had a single A. I only say that because you didn't catch her the first time. She didn't FEEL the extent of the pain that the A could cause. So when she moved into the second A, she wasn't doing it IN SPITE OF having gone through it once before with you.

I'm not trying to justify her actions at all...she made sh*tty choices and is responsible for ALL of them...I'm just trying to shed light on the fact that while adding another A to the mix is MORE to deal with, it may not mean that she is truly a serial adulterer...she just didn't get caught the first time. In light of the explosion with this one, I would expect her to NEVER again go near infidelity.

It's funny, here I am trying to help you see that your wife isn't horrible because she didn't get caught the first time, yet MY H WAS caught the first time and he continued to do it. What does that say about MY ability to see clearly?

BTW...my H was on USS Kittyhawk working on jets. I know just what you mean about the "community." When people apologize for raunchy behavior around me, I remind them I married a Navy boy.
I'm not sure that I agree with my post after re-reading it. I'll leave it there, but I'm doubting my thoughts there.

I think you do need to really THINK about whether or not you want to fight for this M. Some of it hinges on WW's actions from now on, but inevitably, it is YOUR choice and she should know that.

HTM
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/16/08 05:20 PM
HTM,
I think her "partying" behavior may lend to the observation that she potentially had some ONS as well. She is addicted to the attention and the high that she gets from this behavior.

IMO, she's not the classic cheated once, didn't get caught, cheated twice, got caught, kinda gal.

She's been using sex to get what she wants all her life. Sad, but true.

And I'm not sure I agree with you that she will "never again go near Infidelity". None of her actions have shown remorse, none of her actions have shown retribution for SWW.

I don't think SWW is even in first gear with R with this woman.

Again, just my opinion.
Yeah, I left that post but don't feel conviction for it.

I agree that I don't think she is anywhere close to not going near infidelity again...I just mean that IF her actions move into recovery, she may be able to beat this thing.

I think you are probably right about the sex thing. She does seem to have a need for attention that she meets outside of her M. What does ONS stand for?
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/16/08 05:29 PM
One Night Stand sick
T/J

Crazy idea SWW...my H and I have an appointment with the Harley's tomorrow night and I am thinking he will probably come up with an excuse to have to work. I'm sure you outrank him...could you ORDER him to be there? crazy I know, I know...he needs to find his own pair of cahones and face what he did. Just a thought...

HTM
hicktownmommy,

tell him that's a lawful order.

I think...

I have more to post tomorrow. Spent a lot of the day on phone with WW and job head hunters.
Good to hear that communication is going on. That's usually a good sign. It will be hard and there will be ups and downs (that's why they call this a roller-coaster) but if you and your WW are willing, it is amazing what you can overcome.

I "reminded" H of the appointment tomorrow. He didn't confirm an appearance, but there are consequences to every action and I am confident that he will make a good choice (do I sound like an elementary school teacher?).

HTM
Well, good news and bad.

The good is that WW told me yesterday that the whole time she was talking to ex BF was as a result of her and a couple of others trying to talk him into entering rehab. She said half the calls were to his wife, that is why there were so many to the house at night during the week. I called BS. She said "is there a sudden dropoff around 15 January?" I said "yeah." She said that's when he finally agreed to go into rehab for 2 weeks. And that's why there are no more calls except for a couple a month after that. I told her I didn't appreciate her spending 30-40 hours a month on the phone with her ex BF of 20 years ago and not telling me. She said she was sorry, she agreed, it was not right. I let it drop, but feel this is an issue that really needs to be explored further, her hiding things like this from me.

I was still calling BS on the whole thing though to myself, until....OM's wife called me and confirmed, from their home phone. She did not know I didn't know.

The other good is that my headhunter friend got me an interview at home for the number three job, Exec VP operations for an international company. Better salary and bennies than I make now, and at home. You would think i am on cloud nine right?

WW calls this morning and asks if I have heard from headhunter friend. I tell her good news.

WW: Well that's great news, I hope it works out for you.

ME: Yeah it is a great possibility, It would be good to get back home.

WW: Well, we'll see...

ME: You sound kind of unsure about the whole thing.

WW: It's just too early, and you are acting like everything is all hunky dorry and it's NOT!

ME: Is there something wrong? You sound a little cranky.

WW: No I'm not cranky, I just don't know how I feel about this, so don't start expecting me to do handsprings just because you may be coming home, I still haven't decided yet what I want to do, OK, so...look I've got to go. Click.

Well I tried to be as nice as I could. Is she just a bi*ch and doesn't want me back, or is she going thru withdrawals, is still mad at me because I took away her candy? Is she mad because I am being nice and things are looking better and that makes her possibly have to look in the mirror?

I haven't gotten D papers yet and I am heading home this afternoon, she is not excited about me staying at home. I said I understand, but that's the best thing for now, so let's try to make thebest of it. She is PO'd.
WITHDRAWLS!!! That's what you are feeling from her. She's going through withdrawls and it doesn't feel good and you are the easiest target to blame because you "took it away" from her.

She's still possessed by aliens...very foggy...and everything she says is coming from that other place. Be careful. It is easy to let wayward fog babble bait you into a big fight. Don't do it. She WILL come out of it.

There are a lot of threads about fog babble. You might want to read up on a bit of it. The basic idea is that your WW is going to rewrite your marriage history to make you the bad guy, she is going to blame you for her trouble now, she is going to justify all of her current/past actions, she is going to avoid really "owning" any of the responsibility for the A. She will try to push you to meet HER requirements, but really, YOU need to push to keep it a M. She is going to threaten with the idea that SHE is unsure, SHE doesn't want you there, SHE needs her space. You need to be strong and TELL her that you are in this M. Do what a H should be doing...stay in YOUR house, sleep in YOUR bed. If she is uncomfortable with that, then let her know that you would like her to stay but you understand if she would feel more comfortable at a friends...or on the couch. INSIST on your place in this marriage.

Sounds like before might make sense. Is there any way you could do some more checking (i.e. talk with old boyfriend?)?
hicktownmommy,

I have read the threads about the fogbabble. That is why I asked, bc it sounds like exactly that. She has already re-written our marriage and history and I was a horrible husband that abandoned her and the kids etc. etc. etc. and has told me upfront she doesn't feel guilty about the A and doesn't see why she should. In her "mind" we were "already divorced." She has these glimpses where she seems to feel remorse and gets teary and apologizes, then it's right back to anger and resentfulness and saying things that really hurt me.

I am amazed any of us BS's have the strength to do this, and I sometimes question my reasons for doing it. She is such a BI*CH right now with these intervals of sweetness interspersed. And yes, it is ALL ABOUT HER!

Yeah I am going to call ex BF next week when he won't expect it so much and ask him very directly and quickly why in the world he spent 5 months talking to my wife without telling me and does he feel that's appropriate behaviour towards an old fratenity brother.

I am still busted up about the fogbabble though. It really is hurtful. Really, as I am sure you all know all too well.
I think that we stay because there is a hope that we can have our M back. I think that we are stronger than the WS in most cases...thus our ability to stick it out. I also wonder if we aren't a bit crazy...

The things that MY FWH said and did to me are reproachable and yet I know that I would have left a long time ago if I was going to leave. That is really the only time that I can find the anger...is when I think of the evil things that he said to me and expected of me.

You just need to keep thinking about the W that you married and fight for that person.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/17/08 05:51 PM
Isn't it crazy that your Affair Book is reading just like all the other Affairs out there? Fog, Withdrawal, etc. Yuck! sick

But the good news is that Dr. Harley has done alot of work for us and prepared a plan for us to follow in order to recover our M and have a better one in the end.

Stay the course! You are doing great!!!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/17/08 05:52 PM
First of all, NEVER EVER ask a woman why she is CRANKY!

Good gravy crazy

Might as well have asked her why she was bitc*y.

Your WW is PO that you called OM and ended her A.

That's a no brainer.

Expect it!

Now, your mission is to have some fun w/ your WW. Take her out.

Wooo her.

Excercise your seduction muscle. You know, the one you put away, and haven't used in years.

Treat her as a woman/lady wants to be treated.

And put your taker a way...for now.

Congrats on the new job!

Now call Dr, Harley today! Set up an appointment!

Today!!!!





Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/17/08 06:00 PM
Have you read up on love busters?

You need to know what they are so you will stop them.

Telling your WW she seemed CRANKY is one, just in case you didn't know. wink

They are the thing that will empty out her love bank for you faster than anything else will.

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/17/08 06:05 PM
Quote
she is not excited about me staying at home. I said I understand, but that's the best thing for now, so let's try to make thebest of it. She is PO'd.

You should have said, "You are my wife, and I belong w/ you....in MY home and in MY bed." and then followed up w/ a drive by "I love you, baby!"

Posted By: MrsZonie Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/17/08 06:35 PM
Hi SWW,

I haven’t posted to you in a few days, but I’m still following along.

I need to provide a caveat before I begin my post, however. Mr. Z and I are just starting recovery, so everything I’m telling you is from the FWW perspective and I’m not qualified to give advice. I can offer some insight into what she’s possibly going through though.

As W. Harley explains, there are reasons for infidelity, not excuses, but reasons. My own belief is that a pattern of behavior stems more from childhood experiences playing out into adulthood. In other words, there is a deeper issue than just the failing marriage itself.

When I was a young teenager, I was abused physically by my older brother on a daily basis, which eventually lead to a sexual assault. Before that horrible experience, I screamed for help every time he hit me, but my father ignored my cries and would usually yell at both of us for “acting up.” The messages I received from these experiences were: I’m not lovable, I’m not valid, and if I try to stand up for myself, I will be abandoned.

Again, I’m not making excuses for what I did in my marriage; in fact, it wasn’t until I took responsibility for it that I was able to start gaining more insight. I am wondering if your WW has had similar trauma growing up.

Because I understand my own weaknesses so much more now, I am going to go so far as say that I think your WW felt abandoned by you and thus vulnerable to succumbing to her weaknesses. She is angry at you because she has these abandonment issues, and you left her out there unprotected. She is rationalizing her actions of course, but the anger is still there nonetheless. She is also afraid that you are going to abandon her anyway because of what she did, so she does not want to try. If you leave after she gives it her all, then her belief about herself, (that she is unlovable), will be confirmed.

I know this sounds like psycho-babble, but take it for what it’s worth. I can tell you that I think of Mr. Z. as my white knight now because he took me back. He has shown me that I do deserve true love despite what I did to him. Although it is my job to treat the wound I inflicted, he has helped heal me too.

I hope that your WW will give you the chance to be her white knight. She needs you now more than ever.

Mrs Z.
Marshmallow,

OK, bad question are you cranky. Got it. kinda like "are you on your per*od??"

Got it. But, i thought i was supposed to lay off the "I love you's" for awhile and just be really nice.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/17/08 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Marshmallow,

OK, bad question are you cranky. Got it. kinda like "are you on your per*od??"

Got it. But, i thought i was supposed to lay off the "I love you's" for awhile and just be really nice.

How long have you been married?

You KNEW it was a bad question. LOL

About the "I love you's". You're right, you ought to use them sparingly. Or in a "drive by" fashion.

You know, say them and quickly change the subject or hang up the phone, or walk away.

Don't say it and leave it hanging out there as if you are waiting for her to say it back to you.

MrsZonie,

Thanks so much for the insight. I have picked up on a lot of things over the years that she has a fear of abandonment. I do not know if she had any experiences like you did though.

She doesn't like to talk about serious emotional issues at all and avoids them like the plague, gets angry if i press.

She has told me before things that make me believe that she thinks she is unloveable. I think she has very low self-esteem and makes up for it by seeking to be the center of attention for validation (that she is beautiful, funny, interesting etc.)

To me this is really strange bc she is an absolute knockout beauty, is funny, witty, charming, loving (at least she used to be all those things before she was abducted) and I can't for the life of me figure out why she would doubt herself in any way.

She says she wanted that from me, BUT, when I did give her those things she acts like she is not really interested, or she doesn't believe me. And I am not talking about behaviour I exhibited post A either, I am talking about Pre-A.

I tell her that I am committed to staying married to her and that I am not going to give up without a fight for HER.

I just don't thinks she cares right now...
Posted By: IHadEnough Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/17/08 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Well I tried to be as nice as I could. Is she just a bi*ch and doesn't want me back, or is she going thru withdrawals, is still mad at me because I took away her candy? Is she mad because I am being nice and things are looking better and that makes her possibly have to look in the mirror?


She treats you like this because you allow it. Unlike others I do not believe in calling abusive behavior fog.

The fact is I think you should get counseling. Find out why you think so little of yourself that you would allow this woman to treat you this way.

I tried to appease my XW before I knew she was sleeping with another guy. She raked me thru the coals. When I learned she had slept with him I dumped her and filed for divorce. I must tell you that was the only time I saw her have fear in her eyes. She did a complete 180 and begged me to stay with her. Since I divorced things are so much better not living with a lying cheating woman.

Get help and find out why you think you should be subject to this behavior. She gets to use you for money and then when you interfere with her sleeping with other men she does not know if she wants to be married? You would be far better off without her unless she changes right now.

Your only other alternative is learn how to accept and live with abusive behavior. Or you could go to plan B and wait until she is tired having her fun and live with a woman that is not in love with you.

I am sorry if I sound harsh but I just get tired of people accepting this kind of behavior. You control your life and just think on why you want to be married to a person like this.

But in order to answere your question she treats you like this because she can. I think you should also look into the mirror and think about why you would accept her abuse. It is not fog it is free will.

Having said that I do wish you the best of luck. No one should be treated like you are. I really feel for you on one hand but on the other you could stop her behavior today. It really is up to you.



Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/17/08 09:34 PM
Quote
Your only other alternative is learn how to accept and live with abusive behavior. Or you could go to plan B and wait until she is tired having her fun and live with a woman that is not in love with you.

It looks like SWW ended the A.

And now it looks like he's going to get a job that will keep him at home.

Two very big hurdles.

I'd be willing to bet that SWW never learned about love busters or other MB principles before he came here.

He's learning.

And if she is willing, she will learn too.

Hopefully SWW will call Dr. Harley and set up an appointment so that they can formulate a plan that will make them BOTH happy.







Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/17/08 09:48 PM
IHadEnough makes some very good points SWW. You should file that post away for down the road if your WW decides to continue this acting out, EVEN after you have returned home and done a good Plan A. She has been yankin' your chain for quite some time.
Hi all,

had a decent night last night. A little fun with WW and DS. Slept in my bed with WW on the other side watching tv and then falling asleep.

No confrontations, no talk at all about thr R or the M or the A.

I can't explain it, but today I just feel this incredible sense of power and clarity.

I now realize I control my destiny and if she wants to come along on the plan that I have she is welcome and of course it will ultimately be a plan that we both subscribe to hopefully. If she cannot, then that will be her decision. I am plan A'ing and refuse to be baited and it feels really good.

It's almost like I am a teacher and I know the lesson plan, I know what excuses (like the dog ate my homeowrk etc.) that she is going to come up with, say etc. She is a perfect foggy WW and doesn't even realize it! Her words are almost funny to me and I have to resist cracking a knowing smile.

I read the lengthy posts from a lot of you to that HU character and it was very instructive, he sounds like my WW only WW is not so angry, or at least doesn't outwardly show it.

WW is very depressed right now and on the emotional roller coaster. I am just riding along in the seat next to her smiling.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/18/08 02:50 PM
Awesome news!

Felt good to sleep in YOUR bed, in YOUR bedroom again didn't it?

Now don't you leave it!

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I can't explain it, but today I just feel this incredible sense of power and clarity.

Good deal!

Quote
It's almost like I am a teacher and I know the lesson plan

You are. And you do!

Quote
WW is very depressed right now and on the emotional roller coaster. I am just riding along in the seat next to her smiling.

Plan to take her out and have some fun w/ her.

You've got to start doing stuff TOGETHER.

She has learned to have her "fun" w/o you for too long.

No more babysitting so she can go out.

You go out together.

Fill her social calendar up w/ YOU.

NOW...

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO CALL DR. HARLEY?!?!




Excellent news! I am so glad that you have seen that YOU are the master of your destiny in this marriage. You are RIGHT about your WW needing to decide to follow your lead or get off the ride. That's GREAT!

It is hard when a WS says something directly from the script. I still find it intriguing how predictable a WS can be. My H still spouts fog babble sometimes...although not as often.

Keep spending quality time with WW and family. Make it an awesome Plan A.

BTW...my H did come home for the appointment last night, although he spent the majority of the time arguing with the counselor.
Hi friends,

boy what a crummy night last night. Wife left to go out with "friends" leaving me and DS at home.

I offered to take her to dinner:

ME: How about Longhorn.

WW: I hate Longhorn.

ME: Ruths Chris.

WW: No too heavy.

ME: How about Italian or Mexican?

WW: No.

ME: Is there somewhere you would like to go special?

WW: No I am really not hungry, why don't you go to the store and cook a steak for you and DS, I'll just eat a little something from the fridge.

I go to the store, get steaks etc. and come back. WW is dressed up and is obviously going out. I pretend not to notice. After a little while she says, "hey I am giong to run over to friends house and smoke a cigarette, I'll be back in a bit."

She leaves, I cook me and DS dinner on the grill and we settle in for a little Indiana Jones. WW comes home around 11:30 and heads straight to bed. I did drive by "friends house" her car there and no OM car. Just abunch of her girlfriends cars.

It is patently obvious that she hates having me in the house and makes any excuse she can to get out of there, go to the store etc. I didn't realize someone could sleep on 2 inches of mattress either. She won't undress in front of me (I guess I understand that for now) and is very quiet and seems angry.

I am trying very hard. No angry outbursts, DJ's or LB's but it aint easy. I asked if she would like to do somehting fun today? No. I offered up half a dozen ideas, none appealing to her, why don't you just take DS? I am going to stay here and clean.

So, me and DS going to eat lunch and play golf I guess. Nothing has changed...

Oh yeah, ixnayed the calling the Harley's idea outright, "wants to figure it out on her own and doesnt appreciate being pressured."
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/19/08 04:39 PM
Quote
Oh yeah, ixnayed the calling the Harley's idea outright, "wants to figure it out on her own and doesnt appreciate being pressured."

No, YOU call him so he can help you w/ YOUR plan.

Having a plan and a coach to get YOU through this is what you need.

Quote
Nothing has changed...

You've got to get rid of your expectations. Otherwise they will quickly turn into resentments.

It isn't surprising that she isn't on board yet. You've got to try to sell her on the idea by working a good Plan A, and trying to make deposits in her LB.

Call Dr. Harley.







Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/19/08 04:51 PM
Try this... "W, I know you're angry. You must know I'm struggling too. What do you say we go out one night and just have some fun together? No relationship talk. I've got tickets to the comedy show tomorrow night, and I've arranged for a sitter. How about we go together?"

If she declines. Just say, "OK" very matter a factly.

But, YOU get dressed nicely (new clothes), smell great (new cologne) and YOU go.

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/19/08 05:22 PM
She told you, she wasn't exactly going to roll out the red carpet for you.

Her behavior shouldn't surprise you.

She's got her walls up.

You've got to be patient and look for oportunities when she will let her guard down so you can make deposits in her love bank.

Remember, if she starts to talk...even if it is foggy, don't argue w/ her or try to educate her. Let her talk, b/c it is meeting her need for conversation. You don't want to cut her off.

Let go of your expectations and keep watching your LBs.

Marshmallow,

yes ma'am, taking ds to play golf. WW unsure what she is doing tonite either. I told her think about it but would love to take her to a movie if she likes. She said no way, "the new something movie (can't remember) opens this weekend, it'll be a mad house."

I'll keep trying and call Dr. Harley when I get back to dc next week.

Cut her some roses from my dad's garden, put em a nice vase, red and yellow with a firey yellow red flower to match. She seemed to really like them and like she softened for a minute.

I'm such a "hopeless romantic" now eh?

For WW actions are what's important, not words, which is why my comlpimenting her and such rolls off like water off a ducks back. The roses gig was pretty good though.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/19/08 05:48 PM
Quote
I told her think about it but would love to take her to a movie if she likes. She said no way, "the new something movie (can't remember) opens this weekend, it'll be a mad house."

She's right.

The Dark Knight is selling out everywhere.

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call Dr. Harley when I get back to dc next week.

You'd better!

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Cut her some roses from my dad's garden, put em a nice vase, red and yellow with a firey yellow red flower to match. She seemed to really like them and like she softened for a minute.

That's good stuff. laugh

Quote
For WW actions are what's important, not words, which is why my comlpimenting her and such rolls off like water off a ducks back. The roses gig was pretty good though.

Good job paying attention!

Picking flowers for her let her know you were thinking of her! So will hiring a babysitter and buying tickets for a special night out.

So will picking out a thoughtful, but not over the top card and MAILING it to her.

Women love this stuff.

And be chivalrous, be gallant, be thoughtful, and win her heart again.





Does your WW like to buy new clothes? Something my H did for me once was he got us a sitter and then took me to the mall and we went shopping together. I tried on outfits and he gave his opinions (usually good) and I got to choose a few new things to buy without thinking of the price. Then we went to dessert in a little coffee shop. It was a pampering experience and one that I wouldn't have done for myself. He didn't tell me what we were doing, he just said it was going to be a treat for me.

Other things that show affection through actions...

Draw a bubble bath for her and let her just soak.

Make her dinner and set the table romantically.

Write a sweet note and stick it to the mirror in the bathroom.

Bring her flowers (something you can do again).

Make popcorn and have a movie night at home with her.

Put a chocolate or a flower on her pillow.

Text her a love note. (I love it when I find little love notes)

Dedicate a song on the radio to her.

I'm not sure what things will go over well with your WW because some might feel too pressured for her, but the little things are very possible to do.

I agree you need to talk with the Harleys about a plan for you. It will help you to feel like you understand where you are going with this.

I am a little concerned about leaving her at home while you and DS do things...it feels a bit like you are giving in to her independent behavior when you COULD be there. I get that you cannot stop her from leaving without LBs...but you could stick around the house and do things there with your DS so that WW sees you and feels your presence. I may be way off on this one, so don't hold me to it.
How's it going? I hope your time at home is going so well you don't have time to come here.

We are thinking of you.

HTM
hicktownmommy,

thanks for thinking of me. Time at home ended this morning, big navy called yesterday and i was on a plane this AM early.

You know, I have to say I really tried. No LB's all weekend and didn't succumb even when baited.

No R talk either, except if she brought it up to say she still doesn't know what to do. She was uncomfortable being in the house with me all day and night though and thought up excuses to leave, even if only for 10 minutes or so.

Talked for 25 minutes this morning and got several emails from her where she was doing some online research for the company that may want to interview me.

Cell phone bill comes out in a day or so, we will see if there is NC since my dropping the bomb on her and OM charlie. Prob won't be but we'll see.

I am going to call Harleys later this week when i get uncovered to see what kind of schedule they have. WW goes to counselor (unless she cancels again) wednesday.

This is pretty hard, being blamed for the A and having to be the one to be the nicest to someone who cheated, lied and then SHE can't make up HER mind if I am good enough for HER!

I know, it's all part of the drill, BUT, although it says it takes 6-8 months from DDay to get angry, I am starting to feel it coming on already. I shudder to think how much i will have to bite my tongue in 4-6 months. Brrr...
I think that you may be surprised how quickly your WW will turn around once she really has NC with OM and you are back at home.

As for the blame thing...you don't have to LB to defend yourself. You can still state that the A was her choice and you are sad that she made that choice, but you are willing to work to rebuild your M. I think it's important to know that while you are doing Plan A, you are still honest with her about your feelings. You just have to do it in a constructive way and not get sucked into a fight.

If your WW makes a snide comment about how you are the reason she went to OM...you can respond by saying "We all make choices in our lives and I am hurt that you chose to go to OM, but I am here now and want to rebuild our M." Something like that...that way you can let her know that she's not going to get away with blaming you, but that you aren't going to attack her either. It has to come off as a statement of fact rather than a judgment.

Tricky, eh?
HTM et al. Sorry this may be long...


"I think that you may be surprised how quickly your WW will turn around once she really has NC with OM and you are back at home."

Not sure about that one HTM. I really don't know what to say this morning...

Had a 1 hour conversation with WW last night. Started out ok, then she dropped the bomb on me I had to come up with roughly 6k for schools etc. by 15 aug.

I was actually pretty restrained, but, it did go into arguing. I can't remember how it progressed, but it got into how she was miserable, frozen, depressed and angry...

She is tired of her friends who i exposed to telling her to "fix it." She has her back up.

We talked about the A and she maintains "we were separated, I didn't do anything wrong, and as far as I am concerned we still are separated."

She is angry that I didn't give her time to visit IC to figure out how she would have handled OM charlie. Said like everything else, I took matters into my own hands without regard for her feelings or side of the story. Said it has been this way forever.

I was not a doormat, and told my side.

It seems, for years I have been fulfilling only one, but her most important EN, Financial Support, once that was undermined the whole house of cards came tumbling down. When things started looking bleak, she started the EA with old BF glenn. Things bleaker, she started PA with Charlie.

I know one thing for sure, as long as I am up here in DC this will never work.

She says NC in place, BUT, she doesn't care if I care or not. She is done, out of gas, no feelings of love for me at all. Not anger or hatred, just nothing, doesn't care. Can't see any hope at all and hates to be around me. Confusing, as she calls me sometimes or when we hang out she wants to talk, but that is fleeting. Says she knows how much I snoop and I think she thinks it is pathetic, not angry anymore.

I am like the boyfriend/girlfriend we all had in college that just couldn't get it; "it's over, don't you see, quit trying, I don't want you anymore."

She talked about D, said maybe it's best you call Bill and let's get it done. Said she knows she doesnt have a pot to p*ss in but that I would have to support her.

I told her I loved her still. That I thought it was a bad idea to throw away 24 years in anger. She is just spent and depressed, mostly about the finances. She blames me for everything that is bad in her life.

I am going to call Harley's now. I really need help.

WW is very resentful that it took her having an A to wake me up.

I think it may be best that until I talk to Harleys I just leave her alone and don't call her. Just be pleasant when/if she calls.

sigh...

Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/22/08 01:17 PM
Quote
She is tired of her friends who i exposed to telling her to "fix it." She has her back up.

Back up? What did she mean by this?

Quote
We talked about the A and she maintains "we were separated, I didn't do anything wrong, and as far as I am concerned we still are separated."

This is not surprising. It takes a while before a BS will get a sincere apology.

Remember, she has been justifying the A's to herself for a long time.

Quote
She is angry that I didn't give her time to visit IC to figure out how she would have handled OM charlie. Said like everything else, I took matters into my own hands without regard for her feelings or side of the story. Said it has been this way forever.

Again, this is typical fogspeak and marital history rewrite.

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It seems, for years I have been fulfilling only one, but her most important EN, Financial Support, once that was undermined the whole house of cards came tumbling down.

Did she actually say this, SWW? That her number one EN was FS?

B/c it doesn't make sense to me that a woman, whose number one EN was FS, would fall in love w/ two different men who weren't making MORE money than you were.

But, it does make sense to me that a woman whose H was only meeting ONE EN would find herself vulnerable to A's especially when you throw in financal stresses.

Financial stresses can rattle a good M.

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I know one thing for sure, as long as I am up here in DC this will never work.

You got that right!

When will that other job open up?

Quote
BUT, she doesn't care if I care or not. She is done, out of gas, no feelings of love for me at all. Not anger or hatred, just nothing, doesn't care. Can't see any hope at all and hates to be around me.

This is not surprising. You haven't made many deposits in her LB in a long time. Partly b/c she blocked them w/ her A's. But, also b/c you thought there was only one kind of deposit she was interested in.

Quote
I was not a doormat, and told my side.

Now, granted I don't know the entire conversation, so I'm just going by what you've said here, but you would have done well if you hadn't given your side.

SWW, your WW was opening up to you. I tried to tell you earlier to just LISTEN to her. You are meeting a VERY important EN when you do this. My guess is that conversation is her number one emotional need, as it is usually very high w/ most women.

The next time she tells you how abandoned she felt, say something like this, "I am so sorry. I never realized how much you hurt b/c I was so focused on my career."

The best way to stop a woman in her tracks is to admit that you were being stubborn, insenstive, inconsiderate, and hurtful. Do your best to pay attention to her, let her vent w/o letting her words get to you.

I know how difficult it is to have someone you love, blame you for all the problems in your R, but if you want to R your M, then you need to LISTEN more. Don't argue or try to educate her about how mistaken she is.

Now is not the time for that. She's not ready to hear your side. She wants to be heard.

She NEEDS to be.

Try to find something you can agree w/ her about. Be humble. If you can't agree w/ anything she's saying then say, "I understand." Or "I can see what you're saying."

You can turn the most unpleasant conversation into one where you are making HUGE deposits in her LB if you are willing to JUST listen.

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I am going to call Harley's now. I really need help.

Good. And yes, you do.

SWW, you can R this M.

You just need a plan, a coach, and time w/ your WW.

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WW is very resentful that it took her having an A to wake me up.

This is very typical.

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I think it may be best that until I talk to Harleys I just leave her alone and don't call her. Just be pleasant when/if she calls.

You can call her.

Just try to be upbeat. Humble. Open. Caring.

And yes, definitely pleasant.





















Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/22/08 01:28 PM
Quote
Had a 1 hour conversation with WW last night. Started out ok, then she dropped the bomb on me I had to come up with roughly 6k for schools etc. by 15 aug.

It would have been ok to tell her you needed some time to think about what she just said. Tell her, you'd get back to her about this.

Then take some time to cool down. Go for a walk. Think about how you wanted to respond and then call her when you've calmed down.

Someone needs to be in control during difficult conversations. Let that person be you.

Have you read about the POJA?

Marshmallow,

as always a breath of fresh air. see below if you will:

She is tired of her friends who i exposed to telling her to "fix it." She has her back up.

Back up? What did she mean by this?


She is a very headstrong, and yes, stubborn person. Her friends that I exposed to are encouraging her to work on the M and this makes her more opposed to working on it she says than if they were to leave her alone she says. She will not be "forced" into anything.

We talked about the A and she maintains "we were separated, I didn't do anything wrong, and as far as I am concerned we still are separated."

This is not surprising. It takes a while before a BS will get a sincere apology.

Remember, she has been justifying the A's to herself for a long time.


This one has me worried. If she is maintaining that because we were "separated" she has the right to have affairs, her argument that "as far as she is concerned we still are" means but one thing; time to start another?

She is angry that I didn't give her time to visit IC to figure out how she would have handled OM charlie. Said like everything else, I took matters into my own hands without regard for her feelings or side of the story. Said it has been this way forever.

Again, this is typical fogspeak and marital history rewrite.


Thing is she stalled on going to IC for weeks and still didn't fully commit to going tomorrow. Yep, she told me last night that as she looks back on it she didn't do anything wrong at all in our married life, that she was the only one that tried at all.

It seems, for years I have been fulfilling only one, but her most important EN, Financial Support, once that was undermined the whole house of cards came tumbling down.

Did she actually say this, SWW? That her number one EN was FS?


No, this is my interpretation. She told me last night in the same conversation that she was saying we were unhappy for years and it was my fault, that we had had a lot of good times and mostly these seemed to revolve around things we did that required money. Travel etc. She says she is so stressed out now over $ that she cannot think. So, yes conversation is very important to a woman who talks 5000 minutes a month on her cell, but I think FS is her most important.


Here is my concern. She doesn't seem to follow the same model as many WS's. I honestly don't think it was a highly emotional EA involved with the PA so I don't think she is really going thru severe withdrawals, I could be wrong of course.

I think this is more along the lines of, "BS, I hate your guts and I am going to do whatever I want, no matter how much it hurts you because NO ONE is going to force ME to do ANYTHING. You no longer matter to me so I am free to do what I want. The more you call, email or try to be nice, the more you disgust me and sound pathetic."

That is the reason why I think I should let her call me, which despite the vitriol, she does, just to chat. She called yesterday afternoon from the beach with DS to tell me what they were up to and to let me know she had DS's phone in case I needed to talk to them. Yes, DS was with her, spoke to him briefly.

I am just confused...

Marshmallow,

yes I know POJA and mentioned it to her without using the words or intimating where I heard them. Just basically said we needed to agree together on everything and try to protect and care for each other.

She derided me and told me that sounded so sappy it made her sick.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/22/08 02:53 PM
Quote
She is a very headstrong, and yes, stubborn person. Her friends that I exposed to are encouraging her to work on the M and this makes her more opposed to working on it she says than if they were to leave her alone she says. She will not be "forced" into anything.

This is actually good news.

She isn't happy that her friends expect her to do the right thing. If she didn't care what they thought, it wouldn't bother her one whit.

Quote
This one has me worried. If she is maintaining that because we were "separated" she has the right to have affairs, her argument that "as far as she is concerned we still are" means but one thing; time to start another?

Yes, this is always a possibility.

But, I think she is mostly saying this in order to justify her A and in order to maintain her stance that she doesn't want to work on the M.

This will all change once you are meeting her emotional needs.

Quote
No, this is my interpretation. She told me last night in the same conversation that she was saying we were unhappy for years and it was my fault, that we had had a lot of good times and mostly these seemed to revolve around things we did that required money. Travel etc.... So, yes conversation is very important to a woman who talks 5000 minutes a month on her cell, but I think FS is her most important.

SWW, I think you are dead wrong about her number one EN being FS.

Seriously.

When you are on vacation, you're spending lots of time together, right?

Meeting each other's needs for conversation, recreation, SF, affection, ect...

I'm NOT saying that your WW doesn't enjoy the fruit of your labor. Or the finer things in life.

But, what I am saying is that your WW is a woman who has the same needs that EVERY woman has. The same needs that EVERY human being has. And you have only been meeting ONE of them.

Dr. Harley asks couples to fill out EN questionaires and NO MATTER what they fill out, he will tell the H to pay most attention to meeting his W's need for CONVERSATION.

Your continued belief that your WW's number one EN is FS is going to get you D.

The OM did not get her to fall in love w/ him by meeting her less important needs. And she didn't fall in love w/ you b/c you met her less important needs.

You fall in love w/ someone b/c they are hitting your top ENs!

You have believed your WW is a very shallow woman, who only needed to have lots of money to be happy and feel in love w/ you. She's telling you in words and deeds (her A's) that that is NOT true.

And you're not hearing her.

Quote
She says she is so stressed out now over $ that she cannot think.

YES! Financial worries are STRESSFUL!

This does not prove that FS is her number one EN.

Nor does it mean that if you start earning a billion dollars a year that she will fall in love w/ you.

Quote
that she was the only one that tried at all.

This is a common belief that ALOT of women share.

It comes from feeling unappreciated or unloved.

What your WW wants is more love and affection.

More understanding.

More connection.

I'm telling you, SWW, if the next time she opens up to you, you said something like, "Wow, I didn't know you felt that way. I'm sorry. Is there anything I can do?" She will be BLOWN AWAY!

She will feel emotionally supported. And that is HUGE to a woman.

HUGE!

Quote
Here is my concern. She doesn't seem to follow the same model as many WS's. I honestly don't think it was a highly emotional EA involved with the PA so I don't think she is really going thru severe withdrawals, I could be wrong of course.

You are wrong. IMHO.












Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/22/08 03:01 PM
Quote
yes I know POJA and mentioned it to her without using the words or intimating where I heard them. Just basically said we needed to agree together on everything and try to protect and care for each other.

She derided me and told me that sounded so sappy it made her sick.

Your WW is going to reject this idea b/c she has been used to doing her own thing. She's used to living w/o you.

It is better to teach her how to POJA by putting it into practice.

I'm not sure what the problem was w/ the cost to your children's education, but why couldn't you have tried to practice POJA there?


Marsh,

I think you are right.

The OM did not get her to fall in love w/ him by meeting her less important needs. And she didn't fall in love w/ you b/c you met her less important needs.

You fall in love w/ someone b/c they are hitting your top ENs!

You have believed your WW is a very shallow woman, who only needed to have lots of money to be happy and feel in love w/ you. She's telling you in words and deeds (her A's) that that is NOT true.

And you're not hearing her.


Yes, they are both stone broke in dead end jobs. When WW married me I was a LTjg in the Navy. She loved me for ME! Not a paycheck. I have underestimated her.

This one has me worried. If she is maintaining that because we were "separated" she has the right to have affairs, her argument that "as far as she is concerned we still are" means but one thing; time to start another?

Yes, this is always a possibility.

But, I think she is mostly saying this in order to justify her A and in order to maintain her stance that she doesn't want to work on the M.

This will all change once you are meeting her emotional needs.


I honestly don't think she is looking to have another A right now. She is embarrassed about the one that people know about already, even though she would never admit that.

Here is my concern. She doesn't seem to follow the same model as many WS's. I honestly don't think it was a highly emotional EA involved with the PA so I don't think she is really going thru severe withdrawals, I could be wrong of course.

You are wrong. IMHO.


Your opinion on this actually gives me some hope. I hope she is going thru withdrawals because that would explain the bahaviour, as in it's not all about hatred or anger at me. It also means my WW is not necessarily terribly shallow and just an SF junkie.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/22/08 04:07 PM
I'm anxious to see what the Harley's tell you because your WW is like a selfish little girl having a temper tantrum.

I think it's despicable the way that she plays with you and your life. I hope that she does truly come out of this withdrawal and sees the error of her ways, but something tells me that she's not one to really do that.

Keep us posted SWW.
onlyU,

I hope you're wrong, but I think Marsh is onto soemthing. I need a good plan A and to get home. I wonder if the Harleys will tell me that as well.

A lot of this is my fault, I can see that. WW used to call me ten-15 times a day and when I would ask what she needed her patent line was, "oh gosh, lets see, bluh bluh bluh bluh, oh gosh I forgot, what r u doing?"

Well, I was working wouldn't you know. Then she called less and less frequently. She was calling her old boyfriend 10-12 times a day and then ultimately found Charlie her PA partner.

I am such an idiot. Why don't they teach this in school???
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/22/08 04:27 PM
You're a good man, SWW and she is lucky to have you. I hope she remembers that soon.

Being home is very important, regardless of the direction you go in.

Why can't you see the "unbilled" cell phone charges? Most carriers will allow that online.

I hope you don't get hit with more "discovery" when the bill comes.

Praying for you!
OnlyU
SWW,

I wanted to believe that my WH was different than the others too. It's an easy trap to fall into...that your spouse doesn't fit the mold. My H had a two year EA and then a one year PA but only had sex a half dozen times. I thought...well, that means that he wasn't really emotionally involved. But I think that every WS is emotionally involved in their A. No matter what they think or you want to believe, they will have to go through withdrawals simply because of the nature of the beast.

I think that sticking to a great Plan A is the best advice you can take. That and getting yourself home asap. Your wife is rewriting history as all WS's do to make what she did less horrific in her mind. When the fog lifts, and it will, she will realize that it didn't matter if she thought you were separated...she betrayed her husband and at this point, she's not ready to accept that.

Call the Harleys and get a good Plan A for you. You can do this. Think of it as war tactics. There is a rhyme and reason to all of the things you are doing. Keep that in mind (and your ultimate goal) when things get tough and you want to freak out.

HTM
thanks onlyUcan,

She certainly doesn't feel lucky to have me now, in fact she feels she doesn't have me because she doesn't want me. After finding out about the first A (an EA it would appear) followed by the PA, I have questioned whether I really wanted her to have me. Especially with how cruel she is.

Yeah, I hope there aren't any more surprises either too. Sprint says you can only see call detail once it's been billed. If this isn't true if someone could tell me how to access it online I would sure appreciate it.

She swears up and down (I know...) that she has not contacted him in weeks and she has not talked to him in any way since I called him up and told him off and said to stay away from her.

I find that a little strange since she claims to be so embarrased by my "ludicrous, childing, jealous behaviour, which no doubt made him think I am a jealous freak threatening him!"
HTM,

Thanks. After 2.5 months I still think/obsess about this nearly all day. I don't go more than 3 minutes without thinking about it except when I sleep, and that is 3-4 hours a night.

How long does that last? More than 2.5 months apparently.

It would sure be easier to sleep if I only had a few decent signs from her. I guess I am at least lucky to have found out and she confessed, even though it was like pulling teeth.

I think you are all correct about an emotional attachment/crush, now that i remember it, WW was making comments to my sister since last summer about charlie quite a bit, how funny and cute he was etc. Told me about running into him at the gas station. What got my attention then, but not enough, was when she told me she saw his truck and snuck up behind it and got to the window, stood up and yelled , "Boo!"

She said she was so embarassed when she saw there were three other guys in the truck with him. I told her back then that she needed to stop flirting with other men, and that was definitely flirting. She told me to stop being jealous and paranoid...
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/22/08 06:15 PM
Call Sprint Customer Care and ask them or go online and look around on the site. I just can't imagine this is the case, but I did hear of another poster that can only see outgoing. Very strange, you would think all the top cell providers would be smart enough to have that available.

If Sprint doesn't have it, ask them if there is a way for them to send you the "unbilled" items on a weekly basis or when you call in and ask. Be persistent, you are their customer!
As for time...I liken it to standing in the ocean. The waves used to be HUGE, OVERPOWERING, almost UNBEARABLE as they would crash over me. And they came with RELENTLESS SPEED.

Over time, the waves came less and less frequently and with less intensity. I could at least stand up through them. Every once in awhile, though, a sneaker wave would come in and bring me back to my knees.

I'm almost 5 months out from d-day. I still have sleepless nights. I still think about it nearly all the time...although my thoughts are more about what I am doing for recovery than about the OW and ways that I would torture her if I met her in a dark alley.

I still have nightmares. Last night I had one and woke up crying. I take a tranquilizer to sleep every once in awhile (something I would have never done before this).

And I have a WH who is very receptive and desires recovery...so I can only imagine that it is much worse without that.

We'll keep throwing you life rings when the waves hit. You'll survive them. And they do fade...

HTM
All,

is this a good thing? Just had nice long chat with WW (she called me) she is putting out feelers to get a job. Is interested in getting a job with our local NFL team, she has been an event planner and worked on the Super Bowl.

She told me she got a phone call from some guy in Dallas that is working on teh Super Bowl committee also and that they offered to hire her since she has family in Dallas.

She said she told them no, that she was not going to uproot the kids so will stay in our home town. She also says she has to juggle her schedule with carpools etc. and that it would have to be a flexible job.

I guess since she says she is thru with me I shouldn't put the cart before the horse, but I am jealous. I did try to sound very excited for her on the phone, told her with her experience anyone would be lucky to have her and I would be glad to help with her resume, which would be easy to do with her skills. I am jealous because I know this could be bad.

My wife is a huge flirt, and is very attractive. Last event she helped plan was for a major country music star and he tried to get her to go back to his hotel with him. He is married to someone whose name most would recognize. I guess it's too early to worry.

I am wondering if I am paranoid, or she was trying to stick her possible newfound independence in my face a little. She said if the Dallas thing wasn't temporary she might have taken it since "wherever you are, in DC or whatever it's just as easy to fly there as to here."
I think she is trying to shake you up with the idea that she could move.

I do worry that she seems to feel your M is over. If she thinks it is over, she needs to make it legal. Wait for others to talk to you about this, but I wonder if you shouldn't call her bluff on this one somehow...like telling her "I am committed to rebuilding this marriage. I do not want a divorce and I will continue to fight for our relationship until you take legal steps to end our marriage. I would be devastated if you chose to do that, but for my own sake, I need to know your intentions." Again, WAIT FOR OTHERS to chime in on this one. I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do. It just seems like she's moving forward without you and that concerns me.

And doesn't she know that you are moving back to your home town? If she is in Dallas, that would not work.

Any environment that your W puts herself in is going to offer opportunity for infidelity. She has to come to a point where she is putting EPs in place to make sure that an A doesn't happen. That's the only way it will work. I've always believed that trusting my H doesn't mean that I tell him what's right and wrong, but that I trust he will make the right choices when faced with them.
hicktownmommy

no she said she was not moving to dallas. I think she was thinking out loud and just talking to me. I have already told her your words in essence:

"I am committed to rebuilding this marriage. I do not want a divorce and I will continue to fight for our relationship until you take legal steps to end our marriage. I would be devastated if you chose to do that, but for my own sake, I need to know your intentions."

She is just unsure, or unwilling to commit.
Marshmallow

printed out your responses from yesterday. Read them last night before going to bed. I need to post to you but have a lengthy meeting, i'll get back to you, hope you have a little time for me, you are a fount of wisdom as are so many others here.

WW cancelled meeting with IC this morning by the way.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/23/08 07:16 PM
Sure, I'll be around. On and off as time permits.

Quote
Last event she helped plan was for a major country music star and he tried to get her to go back to his hotel with him. He is married to someone whose name most would recognize.

TM?
Marshmallow

TM? KU are his initials. And no I am not going to expose to his wife if I could even get thru to her. hah!
I dared not ask...thanks for asking Marsh. I know it's a horrible thing to want to know, especially knowing the pain that an A can cause.

HTM
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/24/08 12:42 AM
SWW,

Keep working on your plan to move back and get the other job. Ignore anything that she is telling you. She is used to playing games with you and getting what she wants. You need to stabilize your situation, continue your Plan A and once you get back if she is still behaving this way, prepare for Plan B, staying in your home with your kids, if possible.

I don't think she's ever going to change, but if you stay with Dr. Harley's plans, she might come around. Did you get a chance to call? And when do you get the new job?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/24/08 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Marshmallow

TM? KU are his initials. And no I am not going to expose to his wife if I could even get thru to her. hah!

Ahh, ok.

I'm not surprised. He's had addiction problems and looks like a sleeze.

Nicole is way too good for him.

Soooo, did you call Dr. Harley yet?
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/24/08 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by hicktownmommy
I dared not ask...thanks for asking Marsh. I know it's a horrible thing to want to know, especially knowing the pain that an A can cause.

HTM

I had to ask. I'm glad it wasn't Tim McGraw.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/24/08 04:54 AM
I think TM and FH have had a great M. It's nice to see that for a change.

KU, if I recall right has had alcohol and rehab issues.

You know what they say, money and stardom make you more of what you already are!
onlyUcan

I am trying to have the best plan A i can, avoiding LB's etc. She is sometimes pleasant to talk to, but I think in her mind she is just done.

She just doesn't have a plan or the courage yet to file for D.

I just sent an email and left a message for the headhunter about the job. She is an old friend I told her family issues are making it critical that i return home as soon as possible.

No, I wont be able to make an appt with the Harley's until after next payday. WW told me a few days ago that I had to come up with 6k by 15 Aug for the kids tuition. She maxed out my credit cards too before I changed all the acct's. I will be eating bologna sandwiches until the 15th of next month.

I know I have to get home! I am feeling alittle discouraged today. WW texted me yesterday that she "forgot" about IC appt. Then texted me later that she and DS were heading in from the beach. I didn't call her last night and she didn't call me either.
Marshmallow

you figured it out! Yeah WW and her friend told me about it. Apparently since they helped plan the event they were backstage. KU starts chatting with WW and WW was nice but not starstruck or anything.

KU finally says, "you don't even know who I am do you?"

WW: no, sorry, should I?

KU: I'm KU.

WW: Oh, really, that's nice.

KU: Are you a fan of my music?

WW: I'm sorry, I am from Boston, we don't do country music, I am sure it's really good though...

KU: Where's your H?

WW: He's deplyed right now with the Navy.

KU: (more bs talk, you are really hot, etc. etc.) Say I have a suite with some champagne back in my room. Wanna come up for a drink?

WW: Thanks, you're real sweet but no.

KU: it's got a jaccuzzi hot tub, i bet you look great in a bikini, or out of one...

WW: guess you'll never know. sorry.

I now see these stories in a bit of a different light than before. WW and friend told me the story cause they thought it was funny, but WW used to tell me about other times guys were trying to hit on her as well. She told me about one time a college guy tried to pick her up at a social function and wouldn't leave her alone.

I should have seen these as warning signs back then that I had better start meeting her EN's.

Oh yeah, and on DD #2 i asked her about other guys as well. she said that she gets hit on, asked to go for a drink etc. but hasn't ever taken anyone up on it. Guess what? 2 of the 4-5 guys that asked her out are not good friends, but fairly close acquaintances of mine!

I know it's her fault, she was telling everyone we were separated and stopped wearing her wedding rings. But geeeeez, I would NEVER do that, of that I am SURE!
I think it's hard to know HOW someone falls into an A. I look at my H and the things that he went through watching his mom and her failed Ms and I don't think that he would have ever thought he would do it either...not that I am excusing him in the least.

People here call it a slippery slope and I think that is exactly what it is. You take an innocent step and then another and before you know it, you are sliding into something you didn't really intend. Yeah, you shouldn't have taken those first few steps, but I think that often an A will take on a life of its own. I'm not versed in religion, but this is one of those times where I could totally see the devil at work...temptation leading us into sin.

OK...enough of that...

Keep up with your Plan A. You may feel like you aren't accomplishing anything with it, but you are. If nothing else, you are creating a good picture of yourself in your WWs mind.

HTM
OnlyU

well just had a chat with WW about picking up DD from camp. WW needs money, funny, she said she had $6.66 to her name (ouch, bad number.)

She talked about us for a minute and said, "I just don't see how we can move on together. There are so many people that will never forgive me. I know your sister will never forgive me and will never let me forget it. I think this is just hopeless..."
Keep doing your Plan A. She is foggy and in withdrawals. It is normal for her to think that this is hopeless. You are the one who will show her that it isn't.

Could you send her flowers today? Send something with a note that says that you believe the two of you can work through this together. Let her know that you are on her side.

She is starting to feel the remorse for her actions. That is a good thing, but it is also a hard thing. She hasn't looked at herself this way yet. She's been living in a fantasy world where everything she did was justified. It's gonna hurt to see the truth.

HTM
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/24/08 05:32 PM
I love bologna and mayo sandwiches.

SWW, she feels sorry for herself all the time, you have to just let her work that out on her own. You can't rescue her from the decisions that she has made.

The best things that you have done during this time have come from sticking to your plans, having committed action and following through.

Don't let her diversions side track you. You are doing a fine Plan A because here biggest complaint was being abandoned. You are talking to her and you are working on getting back home.

You don't have to overdo it and kiss her butt. She doesn't deserve that. IMO.

Just stay the course.... don't react to her manipulation. Some of it is a bad habit that will have to change by her experiencing that you have personal boundaries that you aren't willing to sacrifice.

That's how I have to be with my 20 yr old DD.
onlyUcan and HTM,

I was reading a thread by some guy named Walt. It goes on for like 56 pages, and in the end he finally realizes his wife is narcissitic personality disorder adn gets divorced.

I really like the more positive messages from people like you both. Whew, that was a depressing read.

Yes, I am plan A'ing as hard as I can, and paying close attention to her EN for conversation. Asking her questions, listening, letting there be an uncomfortable silence for a minute without leaping in, at which point she seems to leap in and pick up the slack.

SWW, she feels sorry for herself all the time,

Yes, she sure does, and I interpret it as as she is saying her misery or boredness or brokeness or 5 yr old suburban or hectic schedule etc. etc. etc. is my fault, BUT, I am listening with no DJ's or LB's.

Had a bad 24 hours thinking about the A's again. Am working very long hours to try to keep my mind off it and praying a lot.

I hate that she is so unhappy, I wish there was something more I could do, but I will stick to the Plan A.

I see a long road ahead, I just wish I could be there to meet her EN's.
Posted By: rwinger Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/24/08 06:37 PM
SWW

Sticking my nose on this thread - there are definately some heart break stories in the 'house of broken dreams' but there are success stories as well.

Here are some examples - mywifeilove is good one.

dazednconfusedks is one long and tortuous plan A but gives a good example of compartmentalization and patience during plan A.

Even though Hopethisworks went into plan B - he is in my opinion a success story because he went from the bowels of heck and took control of his life. Recovering will be or not be according to his decision now.

Wanted to add Toomuchtoosoon did a great job of plan A and made some key strategic moves to save his marriage.

Your situation is tough because of the difficulty of meeting any ENs due to distance. Hang in there.
rwinger,

thanks for chiming in, i really need to read a few success stories. I was getting really depressed there for awhile. I'll do a search for those tomorrow.

My WW is so mean to me these days, trying to bait me into fights etc. acting nice, then estranged. I know the syptoms are typical, they do make it tough don't they.

Physical attractiveness is one of my top EN's so i try to imagine her with a disfigured face, sick, but makes me feel better.
Yeah, that's kind of sick...but whatever creams your twinkie, right? These are tough times and you have to get through them however you can. Just keep thinking of this as an investment that will pay off in time.

You are doing a great job. When she baits you and you want to yell and scream at her...come here and vent. That way you get it out (so you don't internalize it) and you don't make things worse between the two of you.

HTM
Stone cold silence from WW for a close to 2 days. Tried calling last night no answer. She emailed me for money this AM.

I think she is anticipating that I will see her cell phone bill tomorrow and that in fact she was still talking with him and sleeping with him when she said she wasn't. I think she is preparing for an angry outburst from me.

It is easy to see the nights she went to his place. calls in the AM, then followed by late afternoon calls, calls to the house and kids around 7PM, and then blackout until the next AM when she normally is on her phone a few times until 10PM or so.

I am planning to say absolutely nothing! If I am angry, i will let it pass and then pretend I haven't even looked if she asks. I can already hear her voice, "so I guess you went online to "analyze" my cell phone didn't you?"

ME: No, i didn't, I just paid the bill.

This plan A stuff, once you get used to doing it gets easier, but it still takes some real concentration and burying of emotions.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/25/08 05:35 PM
Is plan A about ignoring her blatant boinking of another man, not confronting her in any way and even REWARDING her by being nice to her??????

I dont think so!
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/25/08 05:35 PM
Quote
This plan A stuff, once you get used to doing it gets easier, but it still takes some real concentration and burying of emotions.

No.

If she's still in contact, you are allowed to be PO! You're allowed to let her know that you are very hurt by her continued choice to cheat on you.

IF you find out that she has still been in contact, you expose to EVERYONE. Call his GF right away. And everyone else too.

When do you get that job close to home?
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/25/08 05:44 PM
If she's still in contact, you are allowed to be PO! You're allowed to let her know that you are very hurt by her continued choice to cheat on you.

Yes, I agree with MM. You are not only ALLOWED but you are REQUIRED to confront. Otherwise your wife will treat you bad like she is now, thinking you are a weak wimp. Just because she is attractive does not mean you can let her walk all over you like you are DIRT.

Please dont wimp out here.
Stellakat, MM,

whew,

thanks for waking me up! I am sorry, I don't know WHAT I was thinking!

Last night and yesterday were terrible days for me emotionally. I guess that can affect your thinking and the way you make decisions.

Thank you, of course I will be PO'd!
"When do you get that job close to home? "

Should hear something about an interview soon. Hopefully very soon. If neither pans out I'll keep sending out resumes but will take the gig a couple of hours from home that is already on the table starting in Sep.

Stellakat/MM et al.

Got the Sprint Phone Bill just now. There has been no contact from any phones in our group since she told me the last time happened.

Thought about her having another phone, it's possible, but when I told her I busted her i did not tell her i had access to phone records and she continued to talk on her cellphone to him for 3 weeks after first dday. She did not know that I had access to phone records until 4 July weekend, so if she was still having contact I would have expected a precipitous drop right then and there.

I guess this is a bit of good news.

Now if I can get her to stop being mad at me for scaring off the OM...
Obviously this is a good thing. I wouldn't try too hard to look for an implausible way that she is communicating with OM. Watch HER and her actions...those will be the best clues.

I think she is just going through withdrawals. It's tough, but withdrawals don't last forever. Just keep working your Plan A. There are so many people who have been through what you are going through and have made it to the other side. You can do it.

HTM
WW and DS stayed at friends house at beach last night. WW hanging out out with all of her "enabling" friends, younger girls at least 2 of which told her M wasn't worth it if she was unhappy, better for the kids to D from your horrible H.

She didn't answer phone last night. I called DS this AM and left a message and WW called me back. Very strained conv. about nothing really.

I was very nice, asked her questions so she could talk, she's just very cold. I asked her about picking up DD from Camp and wouold she like me to do it? She said no.

I told her I would be home next weekend. She immediately told me she had a dinner party next saturday night. I asked if it was for couples, she said no, just girls at friends mothers house, but she wouldn't be late.

I told her i understood, but that I was disappointed we wouldn't get to spend time together but i would do something special with the kids. she said she wouldn't be late, and besides what time did i get in on friday? i said late but maybe not too late to do soemthing. I haven't told her i am staying until wednesday.

Earlier I had been excited when she asked if i could come home the weekend of 8/9 august. I said I wasn't sure but i could check. She said, "that would be great, everybody is going to tricia's condo for her birthday weekend so if u could keep the kids that'd be great."

Great. I don't think I've ever known a mother who hated to spend time with her kids more than my WW. it's like torture to her and she pines to be with her girlfriends smoking cigs and drinking miller lites.

I went to thoughts she and OM were still seeing each other, but I don't think it's the case. Confirmed he is getting engaged and is FREAKED OUT that i may be coming home soon. One of WW girlfriends told me so yesterday, she had heard from one of OM charlie's best friend. Charlie doesn't even come to our side of town anymore.

WW just can't stand to be around me or her kids really.

I did look over the sprint bill again last night. Immediately after I told WW that i had confronted charlie she called one of his friends like 6 times. 1st call at 11PM for 10 minutes. THEN, incoming, "unavailable" call for 9 minutes, then successive calls to OM charlies friend for 10 -25 minutes with 10-15 minute intervals in between.

I guess she was flipped out for his feelings, called om's friend to get him a message, OM called with *67 or whatever and then they relayed msgs back and forth thru friend. after that no more calls to either number and i recognize all the numbers on the bill. I think even after 2 weeks she is STILL VERY ANGRY WITH ME FOR CONFRONTING OM CHARLIE!

I placed an online application for phone consult with harleys for late this week. keep praying for me. this thing may be coming to a head despite my plan a efforts.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/26/08 06:39 PM
WW and DS stayed at friends house at beach last night.

I doubt it. She is possibly lying. Again.

She hates you and the kids. She does not want you to get a job in town since she does not like to spend any time with you. Why give her money to buy cigs and beer and gas to go places? You are encouraging her drinking/party-hardying ways.

She is most probably starting to flirt with or boink one of Charlie's friends now. That is, if she is not continuing to spend time and energy ( and cell minutes) to get Charlie back. She knows you monitor her calls YET SHE DOES NOT CARE IF YOU SEE HER FLIRTING, CALLING MEN, AND TRYING TO GET CHARLIE BACK!!!! WHAT A SHREW SHE IS!

Wow, I have not seen a wife so brazen, bold, mean, and cold using you for nothing but money while she parties and carries on her affairs and flirtings and partying. She is like a trashy barfly using you for beer money. Wow. How can you live with this?.

She is treating you extrememly bad, man, and it sounds like she always has been this bad to you. How have you been able to live with this bad treatment from a woman???
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/26/08 06:45 PM
I pray that you stop taking bad treatment from this female tramp...er ah I mean "WOMAN".....

I am so sorry she is accidently your wife....
I hope that you get to talk with the Harleys. I think it will really help you to get a clear picture of what you need to do.

You may be right. Despite your efforts, your WW may not want to return to this M. It seems to me that she hasn't just cheated on YOU but that she is really trying to escape her ENTIRE life. Children and a husband are work. She may have just decided it's too much work for her.

It doesn't help that she is around friends who don't have that. It's easy to get caught up in the "single life" if that's what you are hanging around. Do you have any married friends with kids? My H and I had to actively seek out married couples so that our social events were more appropriate for where we were at. Maybe because you are so far away, she has chosen single friends instead of married...to "fit in" better.

Keep doing your Plan A. It doesn't hurt to continue it. But it does sound like her boundaries are just not going to fit with what you want/need from a wife. The Harleys are not magic, but they have LOTS of experience and can give you good advice.

HTM
Stellakat,

you said;

"I doubt it. She is possibly lying. Again. "

You might be right, but I tend to doubt it. She is, essentially, having another affair.

The affair is her "single life dream world" with her yournger friends. They hang out together all the time and do adult things and her husband and kids are boring by comparison.

"She hates you and the kids."

Yep.

"Why give her money to buy cigs and beer and gas to go places?"

She's got my kids, I can't cut her off completely. She buys her own cigs and the beer is provided by her friends whose house they all hang out at all the time. I am surprised the people who own the house don't get sick of it, but they don't seem to.

"Wow, I have not seen a wife so brazen, bold, mean, and cold using you for nothing but money while she parties and carries on her affairs and flirtings and partying. She is like a trashy barfly using you for beer money. Wow. How can you live with this?."

Yep. And it ain't easy. Doing plan A requires me to be nice while not being a doormat when I want to call her a lying cheating trashy wh*re. My tongue is almost bit in two...

"How have you been able to live with this bad treatment from a woman??? "

Good question. Prob because she has interspersed it with good times and great SF.


hicktownmommy,

you said;

"You may be right. Despite your efforts, your WW may not want to return to this M. It seems to me that she hasn't just cheated on YOU but that she is really trying to escape her ENTIRE life. Children and a husband are work. She may have just decided it's too much work for her."

You may be right. it's too bad that she is so immature she doesn't realize that in a very short time all those friends with 3-7 year olds will soon be in the homework, project, carpool stage of life with their kids and they won't have time to hang out every night with a then 45-47 year old WW and she will be alone. Or she will end up ensnaring a rich 55 year old with a house on the ocean, start playing house, only to realize his freinds are much older, it's tough being married no matter who it is, she doesn't like his grown kids who also look at her suspiciously, her kids hate the new H and she is once again unhappy. Of course I can't say this right now without her getting more entrenched in her position.

"Do you have any married friends with kids?"

We sure do, but they are not as "fun" because they all want to do stuff with their kids on the weekends. I hope to get an interview at home soon.

Stellakat is right. She doesn't want to me get a job at home bc that would threaten her lifestyle. I fully expect her to continue it even when I return home. She doesn't want me back bc it will cramp her single girl lifestyle bc she will feel a twinge of guilt every time she leaves me alone with the kids. I'll plan A it for awhile, but not lying down.

Every time she decides to leave to go somewhere without us, I will take the kids to one of our old friends with kids for dinner, or maybe to Disney or somewhere else really fun. She can look at herself in the mirror and at her kids when they tell her how great dad is and what a fun time we had.

In the beginning it will do no good to "forbid" her to go out with the "gang", trust me. I'll bite my tongue for awhile in plan A to see if she comes around.

If not, Plan b, which will be tough to do. I'd prob end up being the one to have to leave like Jon did after Sue talked to an attorney in SAA, but by that time the kids will be really angry with her.

My kids are already mad at her. My DD told me, "Dad, you should divorce her and find somebody sweet who will be nice to you, WW is such a bi*ch."

Words of wisdom from a 15 year old.
I think you have the right idea. You cannot force her to change and she will fight it tooth and nail if you do. She will either decide to be part of your M or she won't.

When you get home, I think you have a great plan. Make your goal to be an awesome dad (and husband). Don't "restrict" her from her friends, but make sure that she knows you would love to have her participate with you and the kids and that you are sad that she is choosing them instead. But if she chooses her friends, then go out and have fun with your kids.

You are completely right about M being work. No matter who you marry, it is not all roses...sometimes it's the sh*t they grow in... Your WW seems to be in this mid-life crisis where she wants to recapture her youth. It won't work. In the end, she will realize that. But by then, you may have had to move on.

Have you thought about a time frame for Plan A? Most people here suggest a timeline in your head so that you don't feel too beat up. I wonder if maybe six months is long enough (maybe too long). Then you move to Plan B.

I think you should do your best to re-establish friendships with those married couples with kids. Build a support system for you and your children so that if and when Plan B comes into play, you have that system there to lean on. I don't think you should count yourself out if Plan B happens...you may be able to figure it out so that she needs to leave and not you. Why do you think you will have to be the one to leave?

Good luck. Keep on trucking...
HTM
HEY! How do y'all like this little email exchange from today? WW emailing me about $


WW: "I cannot log into mypay. you've changed the password too, I guess, make sure you are in complete control of everyone. Did you think I'd try to take your money? nice......

you will need to print out your W-2 or email it."

ME: "WW, at the time my finances were in a shambles, my credit record was torn apart, checks were bouncing all over the place, you were in an active affair and keeping it a secret while lying to me and everybody else, and still to this day you are not willing to say whether you want a divorce or not. Yes, I took some steps to protect me and the kids financially until you decide what you want to do. That is not being in control, it is just being smart."

"WW: Smart would have been to engage in our life years ago and not just assume everyone would be able to handle all the crap you didn't want to. I did my best with the money and the kids. Sorry if you were too busy to notice."

ME: "I realize that I have made some mistakes and am willing to make amends and change those things if you will give me the chance. We will both need to do some trying here. I am not sure if you have really thought all the way through the process of splitting up on yourself, me, the kids and all, but if you are bound and determined to do it there is nothing I can do to change you.

I am trying the best I can to show you that I have made some permanent changes and will keep on trying as long as my patience will last. You are understandably angry about that, "too little too late etc." But those changes will either serve us both well, or at least me and the kids well in the future if you are determined to break us all up.

I still love you and am offering you a chance as well if you want to take it. Gotta run."

Hope this was OK. I know it's not total plan A, but I just didn't know how to respond any other way. I guess I can talk about POJA'ing the finances with her, but with her so mean and nasty I don't think she would respond to that now.


I think it sounds good. You stood up for yourself, but you let her know that you would like to have her there with you.

She's really trying to goad you into a fight. You did great acknowledging her unhappiness, accepting partial blame, but at the same time reminding her that SHE is the cause of a lot of it too.

Kuddos.

HTM
I'm not sure you need to POJA the money thing completely. Yes, you need to make sure that she can pay for daily needs for her and the kids, but you can limit that. Maybe you can set up a second bank account and deposit an "allowance" into it that she can use for food, clothing, etc. Let her know that you want to make sure she and the kids are provided for, but as you stated before, until you know what her intentions are, you need to make sure that you are financially secure...meaning that she has limited access to your accounts.

HTM
hicktownmommy

you said;

"Maybe you can set up a second bank account and deposit an "allowance" into it that she can use for food, clothing, etc. Let her know that you want to make sure she and the kids are provided for, but as you stated before, until you know what her intentions are, you need to make sure that you are financially secure...meaning that she has limited access to your accounts."

That is exactly what i have done. This should be an interesting weekend coming up. I love how quickly she turns it on me and says in response to my securing my finances bc she was in an affair and says,

"Smart would have been to engage in our life years ago and not just assume everyone would be able to handle all the crap you didn't want to. I did my best with the money and the kids. Sorry if you were too busy to notice."

I must really have been such an awful person...not! OK, I made some mistakes, but I can't buy all this cr*p.

I read about 50 pages of abandoned with 3 kids thread last night. While they are different people and I was in no way the domestic supporter he is, WW and I did meet very young and she has now had at least 2 affairs that I know of and has had numerous opportunities for more and certainly ONS's. Whenever we "broke up" she immediately was having sex with multiple partners.

I recently found out by her own admission that one summer during college she heard from one of my friends that I was telling people that we were broken up. She says she tried to call me but since I was in atlanta she couldn't reach me. She assumed friend was telling the truth so she slept with 2 guys in Newport RI that summer, one a ONS the other a few times. During this time i remembered I couldn't reach her for a couple of weeks until we got back to school. We picked up where we left off and she never told me about it. I was like...you just took this person's word that i was saying that and started having sex with people? I never said that. She said yeah.

I will keep trying, but I do have doubts as to whether this woman is worth it.
I'm sorry to hear that...but I think you may be right. While I don't take the hard line that Stella might take (no offense Stella...you speak your mind), I am starting to think that the pattern is so engrained in her that she may not be willing to change enough to meet the needs you have in a wife. She may just not be willing to be monogamous.

In the end, you can at least know that you have done all that you could to provide an opportunity for your relationship to survive.

Question, was there ever a time in your M when you feel like you and your W were on the same page with each other about what it meant to be married? Was it there at some point and slipped away or was it never really there to begin with?

HTM
hicktownmommy,

There were definitely times when we were on the same page, but I now see that my 2 biggest EN's are affection and openess honesty. She happens to find it nearly impossible to display any affection whatsoever and is very walled off with her feelings, never wanting to discuss what is bothering her, would rather keep it bottled up inside to "process on her own."

I have almost never in 24 years had her open up to me about a problem she was having emotionally.

Another of my EN's is admiration. Again, I feel she has never expressed this at all. I shared this with her a little while ago, during the long DDay process that took several days, she said she always told people how hard i worked, how smart i was. I said I never knew. She felt this was good enough, and mentioned 1 time in 24 years that she paid me a compliment.

My other 2 EN's are Physical Attractiveness and SF. She has the physical attractiveness down cold and had the SF more than taken care of until the last year. Yes it's been nearly a year...and counting.

I read in SAA that people for whom SF is an EN typically are the types that fantacize. She does this frequently during SF, very vocally, openly with no shame or hesitance whatsoever and it can be pretty graphic. I always liked this that she was willing to share with me her innermost thoughts (ok, it was pretty hot too.)

At any rate, she has met only 2 of my EN's for years and now is meeting only 1, which in our current state she is not really meeting at all.

I can guess at her EN's but it's only a guess.

HTM, I am catching up on your thread reading from the beginning. I'll see you over there. You have really been thru the ringer...
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/29/08 04:41 PM
SWW,

Waywards are waywards. Ab's WW is no worse than any other wayward, IMO. Although, there were times that I wondered if she had a mental illness. I don't wonder anymore. She's just he!! bent. And ab is done.

It is my opinion that until you MOVE HOME, you will not have really tried to put this M back together.

Your WW has consistently believed that abandonment = permission to sleep around.

It's a wonder you chose to take the job you have, knowing this about her. But, what done is done.

I happen to think there's alot of hope for your M.

But, you need to get home.

Have you called Dr. Harley, yet?

PS: I really like Stella. I have no idea how old she is, but she reminds me of my beloved grandmother. I totally get her. She hates to see people suffer at the hands of others.

I think if YOU change. Improve yourself. Cut out love busters,live w/ your WW, and meet her EN's, I believe she will change too. That's what MB is all about.



Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/29/08 04:52 PM
I am 53, people say I look 10 years younger, tried to get my picture on the MB pic thread but Faith would not put it up on there....

Yes I was raised by super strict parents. I spent years trying hard to find out who I was and what I wanted in life..

I have a lot of inner rules I go by in life and they have not been bad for me. Saved me from a lot of heartache yet there is still pain in life no matter how hard we try to do the right things....
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/29/08 04:58 PM
Quote
I read in SAA that people for whom SF is an EN typically are the types that fantacize. She does this frequently during SF, very vocally, openly with no shame or hesitance whatsoever and it can be pretty graphic. I always liked this that she was willing to share with me her innermost thoughts (ok, it was pretty hot too.)

I think this speaks well of your M.

Having a healthy sex life tells me you had a pretty good M prior to moving away. And prior to the A.

Opening herself up to you...sharing her fantasies w/ you IS being open and honest. She wouldn't have done this, if you didn't make it "safe" for her to.



Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/29/08 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Stellakat
I am 53, people say I look 10 years younger, tried to get my picture on the MB pic thread but Faith would not put it up on there....

Yes I was raised by super strict parents. I spent years trying hard to find out who I was and what I wanted in life..

I have a lot of inner rules I go by in life and they have not been bad for me. Saved me from a lot of heartache yet there is still pain in life no matter how hard we try to do the right things....

Thank you for sharing that, Stella. smile

Yes, there's no way to escape pain on this side of heaven is there?

MB is blessed to have you here.
Marsh,

you said;

"Your WW has consistently believed that abandonment = permission to sleep around.

It's a wonder you chose to take the job you have, knowing this about her. But, what done is done."


Thing is I didn't really know all this stuff about abandonment until it was too late and the A's had started. I didn't even know she was sleeping around so much when we were broken up in college until we had been married for years and it slowly came out. My fault not knowing her EN's I guess.

You know, our communication has been lousy for awhile now. It is partly my fault and I have been busted up solid for responding to her complaints by arguing back rather than just listening and realizing that she was trying to be honest and vent her feelings, not just criticize.

If I get another chance I will do just that, listen. I can be a real dope.

I go home this weekend. Headhunter called. Said the corporation is very interested after seeing my resume. Said this company normally doesn't respond quickly to getting resume's so that's a very good sign. Said it won't happen overnight though.

Job is Exec VP Global Operations and is #3 job in a large publically traded corporation, so they will vet very seriously.

I am actually scared to death that they will say "ok, youve got the job." What if I can't do it??? I always say that at the beginning of a new job though, and who cares, at least I'll be home for awhile even if i do get fired after 90 days.

Please offer up a prayer for good old "sick with worry" if you think about it.

thanks.
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/29/08 07:08 PM
Your WW's pointing a finger at your past faults is nothing more than her own justification for what she is/was doing. If she can't lay blame on you, she would have to own responsibility, and be miserable with herself. Don't pay attention. You have acknowledged shortcomings, you've offered repairs and solutions.

I did perfect in your e-mail exchange. You told her where you stand. You will not lie down. You opened the door for marraige and recovery. Keep it up.

The new job.. Figuring out "What am I going to do when I grow up".

Can I compete in this new and unknown world?

Don't sweat it.. You've been trained to be competetive, learn at a quick pace, etc. You'll do fine. When I read my job description for the position I took after retirement, I was nervous, It sounded like I was taking on the responsibilities of an entire department of people.

The grass is greener with a blue card wink

-JKT
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/29/08 07:45 PM
Quote
Please offer up a prayer for good old "sick with worry" if you think about it.

Will do. smile
Justkeeptrying,

yeah you're right. You get used to the culture of the military. I am always nervous in new jobs to start but usually get the hang of it pretty quickly.

It just sounds very imposing, but like I say, if I can get home that in itself will be a blessing, a huge one.

I guess it makes me nervous that someone would pay anyone that much money, and if you take it you better darn well be worth it. That makes me nervous.

I'll let you know about the Harleys call.
Well,

Today I am as angry, bitter and resentful as I have ever been in my life. It started last night and is carrying forward into today. I had friends texting and calling me last night and I just let them all go.

I am so bitter and resentful towards WW that I can barely think straight. In fact I can't. For the first time since this whole thing I am completely disgusted by her.

I am disgusted by her lies, to me and the kids. She left our kids alone on school nights with no dinner to go bang OM charlie.

I am sickened by her double life. She is a lying pig.

I am sickened by her allowing another man to scr*w her numerous times. She is nothing but a 2 bit who*re and always has been.

I am sickened by the fact that she told me how good it was with no remorse. How she climaxed every time they were together.

I am sickened and disgusted that she still maintains she did nothing wrong.

And, I am grossed out by myself, being willing to take this kind of abuse, administered by her sick behaviour during the A, doled out to me in the aftermath by her mean attitude of anger and unremorsefulness, and compounded by me, who is allowing it to get to me like this.

I am sick of the drama most of all. It is just too much...
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/30/08 03:11 PM
"And, I am grossed out by myself, being willing to take this kind of abuse, administered by her sick behaviour during the A, doled out to me in the aftermath by her mean attitude of anger and unremorsefulness, and compounded by me, who is allowing it to get to me like this."

I am glad you are finally seeing the truth about your wife. She will use you for money until you die but she will also demand the attention of other men and go out and boink the other men. Then she will have the gall to tell you how great it was with the other men while she is using you for her beer money, clothing money, and lingerie money to sleep with other men.

I would not be able to live with someone like that. Maybe when she is 65 and her looks are gone she will wake up and see what kind of person she is and all the people around her that she hurt. But then again, maybe women like her never see anything. I dont know.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/30/08 03:58 PM
Your anger is VERY understandable and expected...and normal.

SWW, if you decide that you don't want to save your M, you will still need to get a job closer to home so you can be there for your kids. Document her neglect of the kids. And go for full custody.

Stellakat,

If you or anyone else has advice for me in this condition I would appreciate it. If I talk to her or email her I will likely explode. Maybe I need to go dark for a day or two. I did last night.

I don't know if this is just a phase I am going thru or not.

I know I have been telling everyone on this board I want to save my marriage, I have been plan A'ing hard and am going home this weekend. Now I don't know. My whole life I have tried to never make a major decision in a state of anger but maybe that's what's called for here...to stand up for myself.

But last night and today, man, I just want to send her a blasting email or phone call and tell her how I feel.

That she is so wicked, disrespectful and a piece of trash.

How dare she treat me like this and just expect me to stand here and take it?! How dare she keep my kids in the dark as to why their mom and dad aren't getting along? How dare she be angry with me for exposing my knowledge to OM charlie? How dare she lie to all her friends and call me a piece of trash?

I left out one tidbit that is really steaming me.

I spoke to my sister 2 days ago. We were talking about WW issues. I am in the awkward position of defending WW these days.

Sister told me an incident surrounding my mothers recent death. My Mom died in a snowstorm accident in January 2008. Mom and dad's SUV got caught in a snowdrift on their way home to their house. They have a lot of property and a very long driveway. The car got stuck 1/2 mile from the house in a drift. It was a blinding storm. My dad told mom to stay in car while he made his way to the house, got the suburban and came to pick her up.

It took him almost 30 minutes to get back, the wind and snow was blowing 50 knots. When he got back, she was gone.

Search parties with avalanche dogs were called out and they finally found her. She was pronounced dead at the hospital though they tried to revive her for nearly an hour. The only explanation is that she got worried about my dad (they were married nearly 50 years,) got out to look for him, got turned around and went the wrong way and fell down. She was wearing only a light shell jacket.

I was at home at a friends during this for nearly 4 hours waiting to hear.

My sister in a fit of anger told me that at WW friends house where she was that night (before she came over to comfort me), OM charlie made a joke when they heard the news to the effect, "Well, that takes the life out of this party."

WW apparently told my sister this as if it was funny.

I am about to burst a blood vessel.
don't worry marsh,

i am going come hell or high water. I have journaled and documented everything. it won't be hard. everyone in town knows about WW lifestyle, it is a scandal. All you have to do is look at her phone bills to see how often she calls the house after 10pm on schoolnights, night after night after night.
First, I am soooo sorry about your mom. You've been dealing with a double whammy as it takes a very long time to grieve the death of a parent.

As to this,

Quote
OM charlie made a joke when they heard the news to the effect, "Well, that takes the life out of this party."

WW apparently told my sister this as if it was funny.

Coming from OM charlie this doesn't surprise me. For your WW to relay it to your sister (who also lost HER mother) is deplorable. This just proves that WW have no heart or soul.

No one will blame you for your outrage and anger over the recent events in your life this year. It's probably good that it's finally coming to the surface. But one thing you must understand is that WSs are hateful creatures. Your WW is no different from any other WW. The bottom line is whether you want to continue to fight for your marriage and your WIFE (not WW) or just move on with your life.

Either way, you should NOT make life-changing decisions in the heat of your pain.

(((SWW)))
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/30/08 04:29 PM
OMG, SWW, I'm so sorry to hear about what happened to your mom.

The fact that your WW repeated that sick joke is the bottom of the wayward barrel.

Sickening.

Quote
How dare she keep my kids in the dark as to why their mom and dad aren't getting along?

You ought to tell your children the truth, SWW.

Especially if you don't R your M.





Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/30/08 04:31 PM
Quote
Either way, you should NOT make life-changing decisions in the heat of your pain.

I totally agree.



Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Quote
Either way, you should NOT make life-changing decisions in the heat of your pain.

I totally agree.

You know ... I'm not sure.

Maybe its my male perspective, but sometimes in life we encounter a person and situation that steps SOOOO far over the line of acceptable behavior that we just know within our gut that the only thing left to do is remove that person from our lives FOREVER. When these events occur, the only appropriate response is the one DESERVED ... anger, hurt, pain, hatred and ALL.

Now I understand that due to the children, that sww will never be able to completely sever his relationship with his WW, but she has sure EARNED sww's WRATH, and in a way, he's entitled to the opportunity to let her have it.
SWW,

Your anger is totally understandable...and normal from what I hear (I have yet to find my anger for what my H did). I think you have every right to vent about it and feel exactly the way that you do.

With that said, you are smart not to make decisions in the heat of emotion. I think going dark might be a good thing for you to do for a few days. Let yourself feel these things and then when you are calm again, think about what you want to do.

I think that your children should know about this either way. They are being affected by your WW behavior. My understanding here is that if the children are being affected, they have a right to know. Your WW will not see it that way, but SHE is the one who created this mess...she doesn't want to feel the ramifications of her actions at all.

At the risk of being crucified here...when I lost my mom, people said weird things. I think that some people don't know how to handle tragedy. I don't think it was appropriate for your W to repeat what OM said, but maybe she was just at an emotional loss to get what was acceptable at the moment. I know that may not be the popular view, but I can think of a few times that people said really off-handed remarks just after my mom died and I had to realize that they were just clueless.

HTM

SWW,

Could you write a letter to your WW expressing all of these emotions? Then sit on the letter for a week...maybe longer. At least until you figure out what you want to do. It might help to get the feelings out and know that you can send it to her if you decide to end your relationship.

I also think it might be worthwhile for you to send her an email that states you do not want to talk with her for the next few days as you are struggling with what YOU want to do. She's been pulling that sh*t on you...let her feel it.

HTM
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/30/08 06:12 PM
I think you have been blinded, for years, to your wife's true nature. Now, all of a sudden, the truth of who and what she is and what all she is capable of and how toxic she is is coming out.

This truth shocks and angers you. It is not that she was not terrible before the affair, (affairs) she was, but you did not notice it as much before.

I think there is a time and place to yell at her or talk to her sternly. That time is not today however. Just relax and observe your feelings and write down what you see is your wife's live, her personality, who she hurts, who she helps, what she wants in life, and how she is out to get it.

This woman should be arrested for what all she did to you and the kids. But at least you can make it so you never have to be married to her again. That takes all your wits aobut you and a good attorney.

Dont waste time getting mad, get divorced!
Stellakat,

you said;

"I think you have been blinded, for years, to your wife's true nature. Now, all of a sudden, the truth of who and what she is and what all she is capable of and how toxic she is is coming out."

Yes, I have willingly overlooked a lot and been the only one that saw her good side since we were dating. My old friends counseled me at the time not to marry her. Said she was a gold digger and a mean person, shallow and deceitful.

I remember that she showed up uninvited to my commissioning ceremony from Officer Candidate School. I remember she wore a white dress. I'll never forget that dress. It was uncomfortable for my family. She didn't care. She knew what she wanted. She looked gorgeous, but demure and, I don't know how to describe it...sexy as he**, but pure as the wind-driven snow at the same time.

I only saw her physical beauty and she was always sooo nice to me that i was easily led to the slaughterhouse. Once she had me married she alternated between nice and mean. Actually once that ring was on her finger. The ring that was my great grandmothers, that was a giant solitaire, until WW after criticizing me for not consulting me on my ring selection, changed the setting and added 2 stones to it without telling anyone, really hurting my mom's feelings.

"I think there is a time and place to yell at her or talk to her sternly. That time is not today however. Just relax and observe your feelings and write down what you see is your wife's live, her personality, who she hurts, who she helps, what she wants in life, and how she is out to get it."

I agree. As a good Myers Briggs INTJ, I will sit down this afternoon on the veranda at the golf course, drink a scotch with a journal notebook and organize my thoughts. I will write it all down and be dark today and tonight.

"This woman should be arrested for what all she did to you and the kids."

Thanks, I agree, but it's nice to hear someone else say it.

"Dont waste time getting mad, get divorced!"

I am not making any final decisions on this today in my current state. I do know that I can't live like this anymore.

The anger I am feeling is something I have never experienced. It is eating out my living guts today. It is all I can do to keep a somewhat straight face until it is somewhat acceptable to get out of here before I yell at some innocent person.

One last thing I didn't share, and this is the only place I have to share it. My father has really been struggling with guilt over leaving my Mom in the SUV while he went back to the house to get the other vehicle during the snowstorm. He is really struggling with blaming himself for her senseless death. He insisted on going into the ER at the hospital while they were trying to revive her. He should not have gone in there.

My Mom was a very strong evangelical Christian with immense power. It was only after her death, when the entire town showed up for Church the next day that we found out just how powerful she was. Dad says some 10-12 people came up to him, many crying telling him how mom saved their life. she was apparently sending people to school, staying with people's childen so they could go to work, praying with people from all over the country. 1,000 people showed up to her funeral many of whom we had never seen before and patiently waited for what must have been hours to come thru the receiving line to tell us their story.

BUT, without my Dad she could not survive and vice-versa. She tried to pump her own gas one time and sprayed it all over the station so she never tried again. This was after she put gasoline one time in her diesel car. She left for Atlanta one time for the weekend with some girl friends and looked in her wallet and saw she only had 3 dollars and didn't know how to use an ATM!

Which leads me to this. My dad's brother called him this past weekend and told him something awful that he should not have. He told him that his wife heard on the tennis court that a rumor was going around that someone started that, "he (dad) left us (me and WW?) here abandoned when he took all his money out of our business and took her (mom) out to the Tetons. I am not sure he didn't leave her out there on purpose to get her money."

My sister immediately attributed this to WW, while I argued that it was stupid of my uncle to call dad and tell him something horrible like that when there is nothing he can do about it.

Sis is convinced WW said it, I was defending WW saying there is no such thing as a human being that is that cruel.

I am not so sure...

I really apologize for the rambling post. I know, this isn't a place to vent about your Mom, I just felt like clearing my head and heart about this. I haven't really mouned my Mom yet.

Maybe I'll be mourning 2 things soon...
I hope that your Dad is able to see that the rumors are something to dismiss. He KNOWS his relationship with your Mom. And yes, it was wrong of your uncle to tell him such a rumor! As for who started it...does it really matter? You probably will never know. Don't let it cloud your mind. You have enough on your plate.

I can tell you from personal experience, that losing your Mom will be a lifetime process. I think that the first year or two were the hardest for me...but there are still many times when the pain and sorrow is overwhelming (and it has been 12 years).

I hope that your Dad is able to find friends to support him. I know that my Dad needed people to pull him out into the world again. They almost had to force him because he was unable to do it himself.

I have told my H that his A hurt more than my Mom's death because my Mom didn't die on purpose. It is a perspective that not all people can relate to. You can survive both.

Have a scotch for me...I have three boys to chase around. My time is too interrupted to reflect for more than 5 minutes. At this moment I am playing referee between the 4 and 5 year old. Woohoo...these are the GOOD times!

HTM
headin' home for a few days, wish me luck and prayers for all of you.

sww
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 07/31/08 09:40 PM
We will be.

Keep us posted.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/04/08 10:00 PM
How was your weekend?
I think SWW mentioned that he would be staying until Wednesday...we may not hear anything before then.

HTM
Hi all,

Had some good "me" time. Went home, had fun with the kids, then flew out west to visit my dad at his ranch.

Here's an update. I had a really downer day yesterday and Sunday and talked to the Chaplain yesterday. Last night a light bulb went off in my head. This is what I emailed the chaplain today:

"Feeling much better today. Think I have found an answer to my conundrum. Was reading some last night and did some Bible study in Matthew as well.

I need to forgive myself and be kinder to myself. I have been meeting betrayal and lies with patience and love as best I can, not perfectly mind you, but the best I can. However, I have been doing all this with expectation that it would "work."

I cannot make WW change or "see the light." I cannot force it, and my getting frustrated is only making ME miserable. If God wants to do that, He will, if not, then He will not. It is not my responsibility to save her, I can only do the best I can, for as long as I can, to demonstrate Christ's love as best I am able, nothing more.

I can only hold the door open, she has to walk thru it, I can't push or pull her thru. I can hold the door open only as long as I am mentally and emotionally able, after that, and I don't know exactly when that is, I have to pull it shut.

When Jesus returned to his hometown I read, "But he did not perform many miracles there, because of their lack of faith."

Well, I need to show more faith in God that he will do what's best for me and all concerned, get out of His way, and let him do what he has promised.


As of this point I really don't know if WW is still involved in an A or not. We talk daily and I am as patient, kind and loving as I can be. No LB's AO's etc.

She still refuses to wear her rings and when I was home she spent her birthday night with me and the kids and the other 3-4 out with her friends. One night all dressed up meeting the girls in our driveway and heading out as a group I guess to a bar or restaurant. She got home around 11PM.

She told a friend that when I move back to town for good there is no way she can live in the same house with me and would leave herself if need be. I set up DD with school guidance counselor so she would have a safe place to vent if she needed. DD's guidance counselor called me today and is going to call WW in due to these issues coming up in her couseling session with DD (WW out all the time etc.) She assured me she would broach the subject in a resposible manner that has the welfare of the children first.

As I said in my email, I now realize that I have been suffering from unrealized expectations whe I should have had none. Plan A, as you have all wisely told me is for ME, not her.

I will hold the door open as long as I can, but I can feel gravity starting to slowly, gently start to close it shut.

She has gone from, "I am so sorry I hurt you, I can't imagine how you must feel, I have to fix this, I just don't believe it's over, Why can't you please stick with me thru this etc." Now to, "I still don't think I did anything wrong, I will never judge someone because they had an A it's not my place, I can honestly say that as I look back over the last 24 years I haven't done anything wrong etc..."

She may be in withdrawal anger or the A may have re-started or there is a new OM. I do know though that I cannot heal her on my own.

StellaKat said, "this woman should be arrested for what she has done to you and your family."

Very true. This cruel, evil, unremorseful person deserves to be arrested.

If she is convinced she would be happier alone, a short plan B for me, and then she can try to make it on her own.

I go home again to speak to a lawyer in secret so at least I have a plan in place should it come to that and I am not just firing in the dark.
Posted By: imagine Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/19/08 06:42 PM
I have been watching your thread with some frustration. This last post of yours gives me some great release.

As you say, finally you get it!
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/19/08 06:46 PM
Sick --

Sorry to hear there's no improvement.

I think MONEY is the key to your wife. She is comfortable, and she is not willing to make herself UNCOMFORTABLE until she absolutely has to.

It appears to her that you are willing to accept the status quo of staying home with the kids while she runs around.

Have you checked out the laws in BOTH states? The one you work in vs the one your family lives in? It may be to your benefit to file for divorce or separation in one state over another. And I suggest you look into which state will allow your wife the least financial support! Because MONEY is the key to her....

Posted By: MogiSola Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/19/08 07:03 PM
SWW,

I am struggling with the same realization and hope that I find the clarity that you have. It is so hard to do something and not think "If I just do this, then s/he will..." and that expectation is the key to our misery.

I am posting under a new name and on a new thread so my H cannot read anymore, but if you remember those who have posted to you many times before...I'm one of those.

Mogi
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/19/08 07:27 PM
SWW,

Welcome back.... I was wondering how you were doing.

It's a process, for you and for her. Nothing has changed in her life enough to warrant her to change because right now she doesn't have a conscience. I don't think you will see anything substantial in her until a Dark Plan B and at that point, she will manipulate and connive her way back into your life.

Set some timelines. Don't put yourself through this much longer. You need to be moving forward and be healthy. Look at AB3, he still had the door open too, but he put hard action items into place so now that he is ready to close the door, it's much easier.

Still praying for YOU!
MogiSola,

i think i know u. I need to tell you that, at least in my case, the clarity does not last forever, and i slip back and forth. However, the length and depth of the clarity gets longer and deeper each time. I write myself notes during these periods of clarity and read them for inspiration during down times. I expect this to last longer, much longer this time.

It doesn't always work, but i must say, this period is one of the strongest.

Let me tell you a quick story. Sunday I felt compelled like someone was telling me inside my head, "watch 60 Minutes on CBS." I have watched that show maybe 5 times in the last ten years but i found myself monitoring the clock to be sure I didn't miss it, I was compelled by something to watch it. There was a segment with CNN's Anderson Cooper on "Rape as a Weapon" in the D Rep of Congo. There was a woman who was raped in front of her brother, watched him stabbed to death, hauled off into the bush with her rapists and raped for months. She somehow escaped and made it back to her village only to be rejected by her husband, worse still she was pregnant by one of her gang rapists. The end of the segment showed her raising a beautiful child, taking care of her 2 daughters, going to school and washing clothes in a tin pot...all with a pretty good attitude.

If she can do that, why am I complaining about my cheating wife...time to WAKE UP, take action and quit moping about feeling sorry for yourself SWW! So my wife is a bad person, yep, but I don't have to follow her down her path of destruction and i certainly don't have to let her drag my kids with her either.

OnlyU, AB3 is an inspiration to me. I read the whole thread, and yes you are correct, she will prob try to suck me back in. I am wiser now than I was previously in my life. I now see her for what she truly is; a conniver and manipulator who cares nothing for anyone else's feelings.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/19/08 11:16 PM
Quote
If she can do that, why am I complaining about my cheating wife...time to WAKE UP, take action and quit moping about feeling sorry for yourself SWW! So my wife is a bad person, yep, but I don't have to follow her down her path of destruction and i certainly don't have to let her drag my kids with her either.

Exactly! You still have alot of years ahead of you.

And you still have Plan B to see if it causes any changes, but stay consistently moving forward for your own sake!!

Her kind makes my skin crawl....(sorry)
onlyUcan,

Very creepy. I am sure I have not conciously changed my attitude or tone of voice since my "awakening/realization" but some telepathy must be going on.

My WW called me 4 times yesterday to chat and offered to go over to my dad's house to move furniture and plants inside with hurricane Fae on the way.

I am not falling for the whipsaw tactics though. I sincerely doubt she will ever change her spots, they go all the way from the top layer of her skin all the way down to the bone.

She is going to be furious when DD guidance counselor calls her in to the school. DD told counselor that "mommy goes out nearly every night and leaves us alone, we eat fast food put on the counter, I think she has a boyfriend etc."

Counselor called me yesterday and told me some of DD's testimony within the constraints of privacy. She said she was going to call WW and bring her in, tell her in a way so as not to get DD in trouble, that her behaviour was seriously wrong. Wives and mother's do not treat their husbands and children this way.
Posted By: MogiSola Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/20/08 02:46 PM
It's hard to "celebrate" when your DD is suffering, but it sure is nice that someone else is going to talk with your WW and share how bad her choices are.

You are right about perspective. That is something that has always helped me too. Looking around and realizing that others have endured such pain and survived. I can too. I hope the clarity lasts for both of us.

Mogi
MogiSola et al.

Well, I told ya the clarity doesn't last forever. I will be reading my previous posts for some inspiration tonite.

WW called me to tell me the power was out. Just chatting a bit, i told her i hoped it would come on again soon. Chatted for about 20 mins, i am still plan A'ing as best i can and trying to keep that good feeling that my best plan A may not cause any chenges in her.

WW then says, "Well, we are going to go over to "friends" house (of the new young chick group she hangs with now that helped get us into this mess) and take DS, no school today. Bill is over there with his DS too and they can play, so I'll talk to you later."

I just responded with "oh good, y'all have fun."

Bill is a guy about 3 years older than I am. His wife died about 6 months ago. He is "friends" brother-in-law, lives in our neighborhood, is wealthy, same group of friends, kids our kids age etc. etc. In other words he's perfect. He is also a total chick hound and has always had the hots for my WW.

Last year he rented a beach house for a long weekend and then pulled up to his house in an RV, kids excited "yay, we're going to the beach in the RV." Nope, Bill told wife, "honey I forgot it's the such and such home opener so me and some guys are going to the game. Here's the keys to the beach house. Left, picked up guys, hookers, booze, drugs etc. and hit the road and came back the next week.

New Years I walked into a party and a large group was sitting around talking on some chairs and sofas, my WW was sitting on the Ottoman in front of the chair he was sitting on. Nothing strikingly inappropriate, but in the jealous/wondering state i was in I didn't like it. WW knows I don't really approve of Bill, unfortunately like she knows I really didn't approve of OM Charlie...

I'll get ahold of myself in just a minute.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/22/08 08:44 PM
SWW,

Your WW is in the category with the cruelest waywards on this board. I sure hope you have a deadline for your Plan A because she is flaunting this in your face.

I cannot even say the words, let alone type them that come up for me when I think of her and this blatant attack on you.

puke

NEVER should any spouse be made to feel this way!! IF she wanted your M to work, she would be taking Extraordinary Precautions and would CARE about how this affects you!!!

sick

All I can say is what Dr. Phil says: the best predictor of future behavior is current behavior. Had I listened to that, I may have saved myself YEARS of heartache as well.
onlyUcan,

Well what a fool I am!

Contact has been re-established.

Spoke to my son yesterday to see how the day went over at friends and Bill. He told me, "yeah, me and mom were there with some people." He rattled off the names of the adults and OM Charlie was one. WW spent the whole day there and most of the night. She called me around 10 PM last night and you know what?

I commited a love buster. Yep it's true.

I said, "How you could you stay over there all day with Charlie and our son?"

WW: "he was there for like ten minutes!"

It was 1015PM and she was heading back to the friends house to EAT DINNER!

We got into a heated discussion about stuff, I was no doubt hurting but tried to remain calm, she started bring crap up from the past and I said, "you have completely re-written our marital history. How can you forget about the good times we have had over the past 24 years so quickly? The birth of our children, vacations we took as a family, buying our first home etc."

She responded about how her life had been so terrible as our business was failing and I had to leave her alone to run it to go back in the Navy. I told her she should remember she had had it pretty good. I said "you told me a few weeks ago that you always thought our relationship had been good. That you would walk on the treadmill with your friends and listen to them complain about their husbands and you wouldn't say anything bc you had no complaints."

I told her I knew it had been bad the last couple of years but she should remember that she had never had to work, she had maids and nannies, 5 country clubs, trips to Europe and the carribean, stayed at home etc.

She got angry and hung up on me.

I then did something you all may disagree with, but felt i needed to do.

I confronted OM Charlie again. He wouldn't answer his phone so i texted him, "I guess you don't listen. How many more marriages and relationships do you need to destroy? I told you to stay away from my wife. I hope this never happens to you."

Of course i didn't hear back from him. Texted WW and told her first I was dissapointed, then another LB, I told her I was even more disappointed now that "I see what's still going on. I can't believe you were going to try to pin the missing condoms on DD. Shameful."

I KNOW, I can do nothing until I get home. Even then prob not much more. She says she needs more time to think and this can't be fixed overnight and I seem to want a quick resolution. I am praying everyday, all day for God to send me home with a job and I am working it as hard as I can. I hear of some progress every week on this front. But now, I am just sending every dime I have to support her cake-eating.

I never exposed to her group of "friends." Just our old friends that I felt would have some impact on her. It hasn't worked.

I think I will expose to her new best friends husband first. He is the only one that seems to take my side occasionally saying "SWW is doing the best he can to support his family in a tough time and y'all just trash him."

He is also good friends with OM Charlie. WW insists that if he ever found out he would be devastated and dissapointed in both her and charlie. If he doesn't know already, he soon will. Going to call then email him my side of the story, including my 50% responsibility for the state of the M and ask for his help.

Between that and going to see an attorney I am not sure there is much else I can do.

Y'all's thoughts???
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/23/08 03:45 PM
Expose to everyone now.

Including his fiance'.

When do you go home for good, SWW?
SWW,
I don't know of too many people who have plan A's more strenuously than you. You've done it all, including the exposure.

Im sort of speechless about how cunning and deceiptful your WW is. And good old Charlie is a POS OM Predator, who takes what is given to him freely without regard for who gets destroyed in his wake. Your txt are falling on deaf ears. This is the same POS who had completly disrespectful comments about the death of your mother as I recall.

I can't think of anyone who is more ripe for a completely dark Plan B than you. You have done more than enough in Plan A and to continue will only make you lose whatever love you have left for your WW. This is why Plan B is so appropriate in your case.

Shut her off financially and go completely dark. You need to get home to take care of those kids of yours. You need to show them what a loving and caring parent looks like. Your WW is incapable of doing that, and the effects are already showing on your daughter. It has not gone unnoticed, even with her school C.

Open the door and let your WW fly, she will eventually crash and burn soon enough. Time to protect yourself and your kids.

I will pray for your sitch. You have endured more than enough for the sake of love.

All blessings,
Jerry
shinethrough/Marsh,

I need prayers now more than ever. I will post later. I am going to need help with a plan B as you are absolutely correct, I am losing every piece of love I have ever had for that woman.

I am going to talk to an attorney about bringing the kids up here with me until one of these jobs takes shape. I can have a free 4 bedroom house a short walk from the golf course, pool, rec center for the kids, schools out the back gate etc. Of course WW flatly refused to move here away from OM and "friends."

Marsh, one of the Co's said they are reviewing my resume in a couple of weeks and it looks strong.

I would love nothing more than to get home with a great job and care for my kids and let my POS WW and her POS OM live in his crappy-assed apartment that looks like a run-down fraternity house with his roomate and all.

I am exposing Monday to all!!!

I have friggin' had it!

Thanks for the compliments on my Plan A by the way, i feel i really have tried. I just look like a snivelling POS BH to her.

Eff' HER!
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/24/08 03:47 AM
Your wife is terrible. Get a dark plan B going and think about divorce. She cares nothing about you except your money.

She cares very little about lying to you over and over.

Tell everyone.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/24/08 04:39 PM
SWW,

That's a great idea about taking the kids up there with you. Right now you have custody of your own children as much as she does. Find out from an attorney if that would adversely affect your long term custody of them.

She will NEVER change. Well, maybe once you have gone Dark and she has hit rock bottom, but IMHO, she will NEVER change.

She is saying the exact same things to you that she has said all along. It's a disgrace to you. She expects you to take care of her financially while she is out having her play time. puke

Don't waste your time trying to talk to Charlie, BUT definitely tell his current Fiance, his past GF, all of her friends - don't hold back this time. Let her be mad, call you names, ignore you. Who cares? What does that hurt? It can't hurt worse than knowing what this no good (^)*&*%) is doing with OM. mad

You will have tons of support here for your Dark Plan B!! Remember AW3 and his inspiration to you. You can do this!
Originally Posted by onlyUcan
SWW,

That's a great idea about taking the kids up there with you. Right now you have custody of your own children as much as she does. Find out from an attorney if that would adversely affect your long term custody of them.

She will NEVER change. Well, maybe once you have gone Dark and she has hit rock bottom, but IMHO, she will NEVER change.

She is saying the exact same things to you that she has said all along. It's a disgrace to you. She expects you to take care of her financially while she is out having her play time. puke

Don't waste your time trying to talk to Charlie, BUT definitely tell his current Fiance, his past GF, all of her friends - don't hold back this time. Let her be mad, call you names, ignore you. Who cares? What does that hurt? It can't hurt worse than knowing what this no good (^)*&*%) is doing with OM. mad

You will have tons of support here for your Dark Plan B!! Remember AW3 and his inspiration to you. You can do this!

Thanks all.

Yes I am going to talk to an atty this week. Going home this week and will see about taking the kids. I am exposing today as soon as I can find "friends" husband workplace and call him. He is the only one apparently who sticks up for me during the bash BS sessions.

Stella and Onlu you all are right. She only cares for me for my money. She spent all weekend without the kids over at friends house, hanging out with OM charlie and i am sure her new love interest Bill.

Told me sat night as she was heading back to have dinner at 1015PM, "You just want this fixed right now, and it can't be done that fast. I need more time."

She is still in the fog because she is still addicted to OM and her lifestyle. If she aint banging OM charlie, there's prob someone else now.

Had a long talk with a good Christain friend yesterday who told me God knows what he is doing. He hasn't deinitively told you yet to file for D so hold on as long as you can.

I am, but I am really tired today...
SWW

The purpose of Plan B is to protect YOURSELF and your remaining love for your WS. A good Plan B needs careful consideration / preparation before implementing.

Some very important things to consider:

Plan B letter: This letter basically states that there is to be no contact whatsoever between you & WS until such a time as conditions YOU state are met (i.e. No Contact with OP, Willingness to work on marriage, marital counseling, etc…). The plan B letter is a “roadmap” to the WS on what YOU need to consider reconciliation

If you’re not sure if you’ve written a good plan B letter, post it. We’ll give you some suggestions / critic. A good rule of thumb with plan B letters: The shorter and more to the point the better.


Intermediary: As you’ve already noticed, any contact with the fogged out WS is caustic and ends up withdrawing units from your LB. The simple solution to this is to not have contact.

That is where the intermediary comes in. The intermediary is the person that your WS has to contact to get a message to you. The job of the intermediary is to pass messages directly from WS to you & from you to WS. The intermediary is NOT to interpret the communications in any way and simply pass the message back and forth.

Do NOT accept direct communications from the WS (phone, email, text messages, direct conversation, etc…) as this breaks plan B and allows WS to get his “family” fix.

If WS phones (make sure you have caller ID) or and unrecognized number comes across, let it go to voicemail. If the VM is from WS delete it. If you pick up the phone and WS is on the other end, Hang UP!

If WS emails: Delete it! A better alternative to this is to block his incoming emails. You can do this various ways depending on the email system you use. Let us know if you need help blocking these. Someone on the board will likely know how to block whatever system you are using.

If WS text messages: Delete it!

Direct Conversation: Turn your back and walk to a supportive group and / or leave.

If you have ANY direct communications your mantra is: “Have you met the conditions of my letter?” If no, hang up / leave.


Visitation: It is best to have a visitation schedule set beforehand. Any deviations need to be arranged through the intermediary. It is usually best to send the kids to the waiting car and upon return have the kids come to the house from the car. I do not recommend allowing the WS in the home. They tend to leave little “surprises” for you to find later.

Make sure that they know that they are not welcome inside your home until the conditions outlined in your letter are met. If the WS comes in anyway, go to another room and shut the door. Again; if you have ANY direct communications your mantra is: “Have you met the conditions of my letter?”


Finances: It is best to have this set beforehand. Any deviations need to be arranged through the intermediary.


Family / Shared Friend Relations: State your desire that you do not wish to hear any “news” about your WS. Let them know what it going on and what the intent of your plan is. Thank them for their support.


Plan B tends to drive a WS nuts! They can no longer get their “good normal family” fix. They will try very hard to break your plan b and get back to “cake eating”. Do not let this happen! Give the WS a little preview of what it will be like to actually “lose” his family.

Post back with any questions.

Stay Strong!
walkingthefield,

OK, a lot to digest here. let me read this again...and again.
OK,

I am reading this, and although I've read Surviving an A and been reading these boards for along time, I have to embarrasingly admit something.

I am scared to death over this! I don't know if I have the sack for it.

My internal monoloque is something like:

Me 1: "What if I do this, won't it just give her the justification she needs to sleep around, continue/startup A's?"

Me 2: "So what, she's doing it already."

Me 1. "What if she simply doesn't care. She'll probably happily go along with it. Then what do i do?"

Me 2: "She already doesn't care and she demonstrates thru her actions that she does not care about you."

Me 1: "Won't people when she tells them think I am crazy?"

Me 2: "Too late for that."

Oh man, this plan B sounds good when it's somebody else. I am going to have to seriously man up here.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/25/08 06:22 PM
It's not easy, but REMEMBER that you are doing it so that you can "keep" any LOVE that you still have for her. You are not Divorcing her, you are engaging in a Plan that forces her to stop being on the fence and cake eating. And in the meantime, you are going to be protected and be able to GET STRONG!

Think of these things as tasks, like at your job. Make a list and go down the list and get everything into place. Tasks, step by step.

Once you are in Plan B, it will be difficult not to talk to her, but it will be even more difficult having her continue to abuse you.

P.S. I'm sure you will have many more conversations with yourself like this. Once you have completed the tasks and are effectively in Plan B, you can evaluate what it is you are really afraid of. Work that out with an IC. When you get stronger as an individual, you will realize that you won't tolerate this kind of behavior and abuse any longer.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/25/08 06:32 PM
WTF,
I hope you don't mind, but I copied and pasted your EXCELLENT post and shared it with stormy in here Help Me With Plan B post.
Quote
I am reading this, and although I've read Surviving an A and been reading these boards for along time, I have to embarrasingly admit something.

I am scared to death over this! I don't know if I have the sack for it.


You Do.


Quote
My internal monoloque is something like:

Me 1: "What if I do this, won't it just give her the justification she needs to sleep around, continue/startup A's?"

Me 2: "So what, she's doing it already."

Bingo!

Another important point of this is that while WW is in her A she is having her EN’s meet by two people: YOU and OM. If you remove yourself from the equation then the OM if FORCED to meet ALL of her EN’s. The OM will very likely NOT be able to do this and it will result in LB’ing between the affairies thus ending the A much quicker


Quote
Me 1. "What if she simply doesn't care. She'll probably happily go along with it. Then what do i do?"

Me 2: "She already doesn't care and she demonstrates thru her actions that she does not care about you."

Not entirely true. She does care about you and wants you to continue be healthy and work hard AWAY from her so you do not interfere with her “lifestyle”. It is very important that you continue to support her in the manner to which she wishes to become accustomed.


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Me 1: "Won't people when she tells them think I am crazy?"

Me 2: "Too late for that."

Very possibly… It depends on the story that SHE puts out to “cover” herself.

This is why MASSIVE EXPOSURE is necessary. When the TRUTH comes out about her behavior you WILL learn who the friends of your marriage are. They will support you and encourage your WW to “do the right thing”.

WW friendship pool will be reduced to those whom will help her / support her A. Those people are NOT friends to your marriage and will need to be jettisoned when / if you get to the point of reconciling your marriage.


Quote
Oh man, this plan B sounds good when it's somebody else. I am going to have to seriously man up here.

You get ONE chance to do a good plan B.

Planning is crucial. That is why preplanning is so important. UNTIL you switch to plan B your MUST continue to do your best Plan A. When you launch Plan B you want her to “remember” a “good” plan A. It will make the switch to Plan B more effective.

YOU will be the biggest obstacle to a good plan B in the beginning. YOU WILL want to call her and see how she is doing, find out how she is doing through mutual acquaintances… You must refrain from doing this.

YOUR healing depends on this. Once you finally remove yourself for the constant abuse you will find that you are able to think more clearly and make better long range decisions.

Plan B is about helping you / preparing you to recover yourself regardless of the current state of the M.


Stay Strong!
Another important aspect of plan B is the transference of Power. Once you are comfortably in plan B power over your life shifts back to YOU. You no longer have to worry about what the WS will think of this or that. You are back in control of your own life.

BTW: This shift in power really bothers the WS. They begin to wonder if they really might loose you. :MrEEk:
Posted By: Unfettered Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/26/08 02:49 PM
SWW,
I just wanted to drop in and say Im sorry for the ongoing contact and evidence of affair, but hopefully it will help you achieve the peace of mind necessary to do a good plan B. You don't deserve the level of grief that she is thrusting upon you.

I think you recognize what her comments about "needing more time" really are. Have you exposed to OM's fiance now? I certainly hope so.

How are you doing?
Originally Posted by andrew3
SWW,
I just wanted to drop in and say Im sorry for the ongoing contact and evidence of affair, but hopefully it will help you achieve the peace of mind necessary to do a good plan B. You don't deserve the level of grief that she is thrusting upon you.

I think you recognize what her comments about "needing more time" really are. Have you exposed to OM's fiance now? I certainly hope so.

How are you doing?


Hi Andrew and WTF,

I haven't exposed to OM fiance as none of my friends know her, this is an entirely new social group. Under the care of WTF and others I am getting a plan B in order. I was going to expose yesterday to "friends" who may already know, but I am going to get my plan B letter in place and my plan B "plan" in place and do them at the same time. Gotta decide on a mediator first. Don't worry, I'll find out about fiance. She deserves to know.

I am heading home this weekend. Should I explain all this to my kids? I think I will have to, they already suspect, especially DD 15. I will prob wait till next week for the nuclear explosion of exposure and Plan B so that I am sure I can see the kids this weekend and WW doesn't make a scene in front of them.

How am I doing?

Oh I don't know. It feels better starting to have a plan, I have been getting stomped on pretty badly. Even DD tells me "mom never wears her rings anymore, we don't know where she is."

I'd say on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the best, today I am about a 5.

And yeah, I know what "I need more time to think" means. It means more time to bang OM charlie. It's been going on for so long now though that a few more days won't matter. I know that sounds strange, but oh well, I need to be ready for battle and it ain't gonna be a short skirmish.

I am starting to think more and more that this may not be worth the effort though. She, and I, are putting me thru a humiliating hell. I am now doing this for my kids, not me anymore, and strangely enough for WW.

I read on Rockstars thread about victims of childhood sexual abuse. My WW exhibits a lot of those traits but she has never told me anything. She craves the attention of men, has had a string of lovers, refuses any type of counseling and has a lot of men friends.

I am not gonna get into lay analysis at this point though, it's not relevent to the current tactical situation but maybe in the long-term could be an issue.
SWW, At the request of OnlyUCan, I have just spent the past two hours scanning your entire thread. Admittedly, it never occured to me that I might be able to help someone else out. After all, my ordeal just began May 1st! I fully realize that the end result of my situation is NOT the "success story" that you want to hear. Regardless, here's my 2 cents...

Plan B NOW and Plan B HARD! I know you read my story...I failed miserably at times! Plan B is completely about YOU. Removing yourself from WW's influence on your daily life is the ONLY way to preserve your sanity! It is VERY difficult at first, I don't think I ever pulled it off in a "text book" fashion, but what I did accomplish was being able to see the "forrest" and not just all of the annoying "trees."

I will fully admit that my WW was every bit as manipulative as yours. The saddest thing is that...they are that way because we ALLOW them to be that way! Control what YOU can control...yourself!

You have the same cast of characters giving you advice as I had. Trust them...they know what they're doing (even Stella...LOL, MAN...she used to tick me off with her brutal honesty!). We all think our situation is somehow unique and that we know best how to handle it. What I discovered is that, they can predict the actions of a WW much better from an unbiased perspective. All WW's are very much alike...including yours!

Believe it or not, mine IS a SUCCESS STORY! In less than 4 months, I have gone from hopelessly "abandoned" to being the happiest I have been in years! You have been granted freedom from the grips of a venomous spouse. You have the opportunity to take control of your own life for yourself. An opportunity neither of us would've ever dreamed of prior to our WW's A's. Take advantage of this opportunity.

Romans 8:28... "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God..." Believe it or not, God knows that you are much better off free from your WW. You will look back on this drama either months (like me) or years from now and be thankful that you are free from an unfaithful wife.

I know what you have been hoping and praying for...the same thing I was: "For your WW to come crawling to you in remorse and repentence and to BEG you to take her back. For her to admit what a fool she has been and to admit her mistakes FULLY and agree to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to save your M and regain your love." That is what we both deserved but what neither of our WW's seem capable of...ever.

You deserve better! Your children deserve better! Your happiness depends only on you. Are you really willing to take WW back after all of this? Ask yourself this, "Considering how much my children know about all of this...what kind of an example will I be setting for them if I go back again?" It sucks, but I had to ask myself the same thing. Once I did, all bets were off!

BTW, now that Plan B is over and D is just on the horizon (<90 days!), my WW calls or texts almost daily asking to come home. Sad thing is, there's still NO HINT of remorse on her part! They are just incapable of changing who they really are...

Sorry so long, just wanted to get it all out while I had the time.

God luck, and God Bless!
abandonedwith3,

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to read my saga and thanks to you OnlyU for encouraging it.

I too read your thread over the course of 2 afternoons having printed the whole thing out. I see a lot of similarities in our WW's and kinda like someone stricken with cancer, it's nice to hear from a survivor, which is the appeal and wisdom of this board.

My plan B will be complicated as I am financially supporting WW and kids completely from away from home. I am concerned that WW will try to cut off access to the kids in a plan B, so I need to ferret out my options on that score.

The saddest thing is that...they are that way because we ALLOW them to be that way! Control what YOU can control...yourself!

Too True.

I know what you have been hoping and praying for...the same thing I was: "For your WW to come crawling to you in remorse and repentence and to BEG you to take her back. For her to admit what a fool she has been and to admit her mistakes FULLY and agree to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to save your M and regain your love." That is what we both deserved but what neither of our WW's seem capable of...ever.

Yep, It's a fantasy though isn't it?

You deserve better! Your children deserve better! Your happiness depends only on you. Are you really willing to take WW back after all of this? Ask yourself this, "Considering how much my children know about all of this...what kind of an example will I be setting for them if I go back again?"

This hurts, but it's true.

I cannot thank you enough for chiming in. I am going to print some of these out and read again tonight.

WW is emailing me now, she needs money and needs more money to order more gas for the water heater. Of course it is in the form of a 1 sentence, curtly worded email.

My neck is stiff and my head hurts...
Just checked back in and got your response.

Didn't I read that you were considering moving your kids to where you are working? DO IT! WW may put up a false objection at first, but the reality is that right now they are an inconvenience to her current lifestyle. Be prepared that she will "trash" you and this decision to save face; but, I doubt she will really object.

Your priorities right now should be you and your children..not WW. I'm sure they know much more than you realize at their ages. Take this opportunity to teach them that the actions and decisions of their mother are wrong and immoral. Talk to them as you deem appropriate. You're lucky, I had to do it with a 10 & 12 year old. They deserve for someone in their family to be honest with them.

My biggest fear is that history will repeat itself in the lives of one of my children in their future married lives. We MUST teach them values and standards, even when they are contrary to what they have witnessed at home by our spouses.

Hang in there! YOU WILL SURVIVE! And...when it's all said and done, you'll be happier and even releaved!

Oh, and BTW, don't let her blame ANY of this on you. There are NO PERFECT husbands or wives. She can attempt to justify her actions based on your shortcomings; but, she made these decisions...not you! There are NO EXCUSES for infidelity!
One last thing...

Sounds like your WW is using the "money" issue as a means of goating you into talking (mine used the adoption).

Write your Plan B letter. Get a Mediator...QUICK! Then...go COMPLETELY dark, for you own sanity.

Instruct your M to inform WW that the money you put into the "allowance" account is all there is. She will have to learn to budget and cut back on her spending habits and partying. Don't be an enabler by dishing out money at every request without any real knowledge of where it's going.

Also, in my state, a spouse proven guilty of adultery CANNOT be awarded child support in a D. Not sure about your state, but it's worth checking into. You need to know your legal boundaries. In my case, with my WW being pregnant, of course proving adultery is pretty simple! You need to compile all of your evidence.

God Bless!
abandonedwith3 et al.

I'll post more tomorrow. Just found out from DS that for some reason my WW won't let the kids take their playstation home from my dad's house, preferring to take them over there to the empty house to play it.

Of course, school is back in and we don't want to have it in the house to compete with homework.

Or, WW has a convenient place to bang OM charlie, maybe in the bedroom where i grew up. Isn't that a happy thought, that maybe friday night that's where she went at 10PM for awhile and then back to friends for dinner at 10:30?

Yep, plan b.
Posted By: MrsZonie Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/27/08 12:10 AM
SWW,
I haven't posted to you in a long time, but still following your thread. I so hoped your ww would come around, but she is so cut off from everyone, especially herself. I'm becoming more convinced that she has been through some kind of childhood trauma and she is desperately trying to escape it through partying, sex, and drugs. She isn't going to fix it that way of course, and she will have to, as they say, hit bottom before she asks for help.

Plan B is the right move, especially for your children's sake. This has to be wrecking their self-esteem - being abandoned constantly by their mother like that. By you stepping in, it's letting them know that her actions are not their fault.

I wish that you could have been the hero for your ww, but she may never give you that chance. Now, you will have to be the hero for your children and remove them from that toxic situation.

Prayers to you sww.

-MrsZ



MrsZonie et al.,

Had a long talk with a good friend of mine last night. He is one of my dads best friends, is about 67, and is a psychologist and was a divorce atty/family lawyer for 35 years.

He was also the victim of infidelity in his first marriage, worked it out, but suffered for 25 more years at the hands of his FWW. I witnessed this as a kid e.g. in a temper tantrum i saw her throw a frozen steak at his head, grabbed a knife from the drawer and came at him. He was in therapy trying to stay with her the whole time. I might point him to these boards as I think he would be a tremendous resource to some.

He called to check on me and said he saw WW at our country club eating dinner last week with DS. Said WW looked/acted like all was hunky dory, no rings, no worries, cheerful. He gave me this advice:

1. Keep doing what I am doing so that like him, I will always be able to look back and know that I did every thing possible to save my M and my WW.

2. Something has to happen to wake WW. He agreed on plan B after I told him my understanding of it.

3. Talk to a lawyer to get my options. He is going to call a few for me today. He says based on the situation that all I would have to do is depose "friends" as well as OM charlie and DD's guidance counselor to prove WW unfit and get sole custody.

4. Pray

5. Don't try to talk sense to WW now, even while I'm planning plan b.

6. Talk to the kids, they need to know, do it lovingly with compassion for them and WW.

7. When time is right, I will know. Don't do anything before. Have one last talk with WW before filing to give her the chance to wake up, establish boundaries etc. He said do this for ME, not her. Tell her I love her and want the wife back that I had for 18 years, but that the decision to R the marriage would be hers in that she would have to convince me that she was serious thru her actions, not words. He said to tape record this talk, not admissable as evidence, but to do it for me and possibly the kids one day. He said this is vital as I will need to replay it thru the years to remember that I did all I could and have a clear conscience.

He told me that in his professional opinion that WW is too addicted to her lifestyle and will not be able to leave it no matter how hard the kick in the head is, but it's worth one last try.
SWW

You have a very wise friend and he has given you some very valuable advise.

Your children do have to know what you are doing and why you are doing this just prior to launching your plan B.

Why just prior? So the children don't inadvertantly give your WW forewarning of what is about to occur. Forewarning will lessen the impact of the plan switch. We want to MAXIMIZE the effect.

I agree with your friend that your WW needs a real strong jolt for her to "wake up" and see what she is doing to her family.

WW's IB (Independent Behavior) is just ONE of many habits / behaviors that will need to be addressed before she will become a truly "contributing" member of your family.

IMHO WW's IB (which have no doubt been going on for many years) was the start of the decline of your M.

There is no need to launch plan B today, tomorrow, or next month. The timing of this is entirely up to you. The important thing is that you have thought this through and planned accordingly.


Stay Strong.

I agree with your friend that your WW needs a real strong jolt for her to "wake up" and see what she is doing to her family.

She is about to get one...if she will ever call DD's guidance counselor back. I think the blows though will bounce off the teflon wall of selfish justification though, but it's a start.


WW's IB (Independent Behavior) is just ONE of many habits / behaviors that will need to be addressed before she will become a truly "contributing" member of your family.


Yes, it was coincident with the beginning of hanging out with this group of new younger friends that is viewed more as a "cult" than a social group by most in my hometown. It was this that then spawned the A.

There is no need to launch plan B today, tomorrow, or next month. The timing of this is entirely up to you. The important thing is that you have thought this through and planned accordingly.


WTF, Does this mean I have to stay in plan A right up to when I launch plan B?

I need some time to really get my plan B together, but I really don't want to have much to do with WW in the meantime.

SWW

Quote
She is about to get one...if she will ever call DD's guidance counselor back. I think the blows though will bounce off the teflon wall of selfish justification though, but it's a start.

I would bet that she will call the guidance counselor back. It is a necessary "chore" to keep up the "Good Concerned Mother" facade. She will "hear" the councelors concerns but WILL spin this to be YOUR fault. Don't be blindsided by this; be prepared for it.


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Yes, it was coincident with the beginning of hanging out with this group of new younger friends that is viewed more as a "cult" than a social group by most in my hometown. It was this that then spawned the A.

It was not the new group that spawned the A. Your WW was ALREADY vulneralbe when she joined.

This group did ENABLE / ENCOURAGE her IB & A choices. Expect this group to be her "loyal" supporters against YOU.

You have already identified this group as not friendly to your marriage. In your plan B letter you may want to include no contact with this group as a condition of reconsilliation.


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WTF, Does this mean I have to stay in plan A right up to when I launch plan B?

I highly recommend it.

If you can't do a "shining" plan A then I would highly recommend that you carefully watch out for AO's (Angry Outbursts) and LB's (Love Busters) when you interact with her.

Before launching plan B you want WW to remember a good plan A. It makes the switch to plan B much more of a shock (wake up) and much more likely to get through to your WW.


Quote
I need some time to really get my plan B together, but I really don't want to have much to do with WW in the meantime.

Very understandable.

It may be interesting to note that if you stop calling as often that she might start calling more often (to try and keep tabs on what YOU are up to.).


Stay Strong!



[/quote]

Very understandable.

It may be interesting to note that if you stop calling as often that she might start calling more often (to try and keep tabs on what YOU are up to.).


Stay Strong!



[/quote]


Yeah, I quit calling since this weekend's phone call, she has not called me either except to email me she needed money.

I just forwarded her an email chain though. One of my professors from college just retired and all of our old friends are chiming in from all over the country at some of his funny quotes and giving each other heck.

WW also had him during one semester she did as an exchange student. These guys were all my friends and fraternity brothers and they were good friends with WW as well. While I know she will prob have her feelings hurt that she wasn't included on the email chain, I forwarded it to her anyway.

Oh wait, new news responsible for this edit. WW emailing me funny jokes and talking about old times in college and funny stories she remembers of some of the good times we had and some of the friends in the email chain I sent her. Maybe she is changing???


Oh wait, I forgot, tomorrow is payday...
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/27/08 07:30 PM
Quote
Oh wait, new news responsible for this edit. WW emailing me funny jokes and talking about old times in college and funny stories she remembers of some of the good times we had and some of the friends in the email chain I sent her. Maybe she is changing???

Oh wait, I forgot, tomorrow is payday...

It funny/pathetic how predictable it becomes.

How goes the job search?

Without going into detail my community has made waves in the news (Navy Times, CNN, Fox, etc). Due to a dumb mistake, an otherwise great guy's career will end abruptly.

-JKT
Hi JKT et al.


How goes the job search?

Not great but percolating. But chaplain told me "SWW, God works only to the good for those who believe in him. He took you out of that environment for a reason. God knows what is going to happen and he knows it would have been tough for you to remain loving, and sane with your WW acting out like this. When it is time he will provide for your return, or another door will open."

Without going into detail my community has made waves in the news (Navy Times, CNN, Fox, etc). Due to a dumb mistake, an otherwise great guy's career will end abruptly.

If the community is the one I think you are talking about, my 410X knows the guy very well and is devastated.
SWW, sounds as though your chaplain is a very wise man...since he quoted the same verse to you as I did! LOL

If you are like me, and most other men...we are "fixers." When we see something broken we want to decide how best to repair and and then do it...immediately! No thinking about it, no planning, just ACTION.

While neither you nor I were perfect spouses, it is very obvious to all that the bulk of the blame for our marital problems lies with our WW's. You know who's at fault and you know in your heart how to fix it. Unfortunately, you can't control WW's heart, mind, or actions. Therefore, we're left feeling helpless and baffled that they can't see and understand what we do. How could anyone with so many blessings in their life want to live the way they have chosen to? Right? Why won't they just "submit" and let us fix things? Sound familiar? Believe me, I understand!

While I do agree that there is some planning involved with Plan B (PBL, M, etc.), my advice is to expedite this "plan for a plan" and get things rolling. Trust me, just getting a M and delivering a PBL WILL NOT initiate Plan B for you.

These are just the first steps. You won't truly be in Plan B until you COMPLETELY avoid speaking to, emailing, texting, etc. Or...responding from any of these from WW. I failed miserably in this regard. There always seemed to be an exceptional reason in my mind to justify contact. Read up on the Plan here...then, follow it.

After just a short time (days?...weeks?...maybe months?) in a TRUE Plan B, you will begin to heal. You will realize how much better life seems free from the drama and venom. Trust me brother, you need to do this. I wish I would have done it the right way and saved myself many sleepless nights.

In reality, I did a WEAK Plan B but didn't feel closure until my WW"s announcement of a pregnancy by OM (who is long gone BTW). That was my final straw (and...God knew it!)...what will be yours? You have to ask yourself just how much you are willing to swallow and accept....and, if you do R, what if it happens again?

Plan B doesn't have to lead to Plan D, but it will give you the oportunity to realize that you CAN live without WW and decide if D is best for you and your children. Once you're more removed from the situation and can examine things free from petty issues and their over-exaggerated drama, you will then see more clearly what others are already telling you. You're not planning to give up yet, you're just giving yourself time to see if you can.

God Bless!
abandonedwith3,

SWW, sounds as though your chaplain is a very wise man...since he quoted the same verse to you as I did! LOL

Too funny!

That was my final straw (and...God knew it!)...what will be yours? You have to ask yourself just how much you are willing to swallow and accept....and, if you do R, what if it happens again?

Plan B doesn't have to lead to Plan D, but it will give you the oportunity to realize that you CAN live without WW and decide if D is best for you and your children. Once you're more removed from the situation and can examine things free from petty issues and their over-exaggerated drama, you will then see more clearly what others are already telling you. You're not planning to give up yet, you're just giving yourself time to see if you can.


Ab3, my final straw i now realize was this past weekend with her taking my son to hang out with OM charlie and the conversation I had this morning with one of WW's friends who is sort of taking my side on this. Friend told me she told WW to think about what she was giving up (SAHM, tennis team, country clubs, house etc. etc.)

Said WW was just silent and wanted to get off the phone. Friend is convinced, as am I and our wise older friend the attorney.psychologist that WW is allowing me to pay for her every need and to maintain her lifestyle while she shops for a new husband with no intention of reconciling. Said she need a couple of things, NOW!

First is a major kick in the a$$ to see if she is capable of waking up.

Second to face the reality of life without me and my ability to meet her EN's.

I know many may not agree (except Stellakat:) but I have come to a decision. I intend to give her the probable financial outcomes my attorney gave her if we divorce. For her they are very stark.

And I intend to tell her I intend to file for D. I am not bluffing or doing this to wake her up. This is for real.

I do not intend to continue to be humiliated in my own hometown by a WW that is flaunting her singleness and parties her [censored] off with OM in front of my kids.

AB3, I know I can go on without her and will probably be happier!
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/28/08 05:58 PM
There you go!!

She is completely humiliating you in your hometown and her friend is right, she is shopping for another man while making you foot the bill. She already told you that if Charlie could have fit the mark, she would have left you. Maybe you are supposed to bring the kids there and be away from this for a long while until you are strong enough to return to your town.

Continue to follow your instincts and listen to your chaplain and those that closely understand your situation (i.e. aw3, etc.)

You're doing great!!!!
Posted By: rwinger Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/28/08 06:25 PM
SWW -

glad to see some strength after the disrespect you have been receiving. From my end - its a shame the WW doesnt see what she will be missing and its a shame she doesnt realize how much you would like her to return to being a faithful wife and mother.

Sometimes though - a BH just needs to fire his WW. There are better women out there and who needs a lying and cheating spouse mooching off your hard earned income.

Once told my wife that I wanted a wife and not a room mate - I could afford to live without a room mate and didnt need to have one so the choice was hers.
Maybe I think differently than most, but here is my thinking.

Your WW is NOT humiliating YOU, she is humiliating herself and emberassing your children. You have the opportunity to escape this situation as the bigger person...which we all know you are anyway.

Be a father, take control of your children. Nothing screams responsibility and stability any more than keeping your obligations as a parent. Your WW has abandoned that role.

I realize that, in my case, my WW not only abandoned her children emotionally, but also physically (she moved out). Your WW may still reside in the same home as your kids, but she has certainly abandoned her duty to set a good example and nurture her children.

No one (to my knowledge) thinks any less of me because of my WW's escapades. In fact, I'm even more highly respected for stepping up as a parent and considering the best interests of my offspring, regardless of what would be easiest for me or what she has done.

Don't give your WW the satisfaction of thinking that she can tarnish your image or damage your reputation. Do what you must to protect your own character...and the sanity of your children.

I agree with onlyUcan...you really are doing great!
I know how much it helps to hear other's perspectives!
Don't let this consume you...if you do, she wins!
OnlyU, rwinger, AB3,

Thanks for the encouragement. I need it.

You know it feels good actually. And I know she is only embarassing herself, although it is embarassing to the kids.

She has sent me about 5 emails today regarding expenses etc. and says we should sit down and "brainstorm some ideas."

I don't think she is expecting the solution I have come to want.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/28/08 08:26 PM
Quote
First is a major kick in the a$$ to see if she is capable of waking up.

Second to face the reality of life without me and my ability to meet her EN's.

I know many may not agree (except Stellakat:) but I have come to a decision. I intend to give her the probable financial outcomes my attorney gave her if we divorce. For her they are very stark.

And I intend to tell her I intend to file for D. I am not bluffing or doing this to wake her up. This is for real.

Which is it, SWW?

Be ABSOLUTELY certain you want a D.

I don't think that's what you really want.

I think the thought of Plan B frightens you so much, that you're reaching for something that you think might be a quick fix....something that will "wake her up" so you don't have to go to Plan B.

Dr. Harley knows how to recover marriages from affairs. Plan A and Plan B are your best bets if you want your M, SWW.

Why don't you call him, and hear him out before you threaten to D your WW?



I've been following your situation, and feel so much empathy for what you're going thru.

My question is this, Have your kids been exposed to? They should be if they haven't, not to put them in the middle, but kids have their own type of pressure that they can put on their mother. It's important that they're not doing your dirty work, but that they can then judge, for themselves, each situation.

Kids tend to check up more, ask more questions, and I can't imagine if they knew that they were socializing with the OM that they'd actually be okay with that. My own DS8 wouldn't have been, and would say something...


My thoughts are with you.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/28/08 10:50 PM
What AW3 said about her humiliating herself and not you is taking the high road. And ultimately that is where you want to be in all this. There will be times when you hate her and want to bash her, but keep your integrity so that you can look to God with your own conscience clear.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/28/08 10:53 PM
SWW,

Marsh is right. Always keep in perspective that you are doing this PLAN step by step. That way IF you get to D at the end, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have followed a professional's plan at saving your M and if it doesn't work, you have done your best.

There is NO need to threaten D for a wake up call. Plan B is the ACTION that is going to give her the wake up call. The threat of a D, even if you follow through with it right now, will throw you off kilter. You aren't ready for that.

Remember....step by step.

You don't even have a solid Plan B yet plan yet, so put the Plan D aside and get through this hurdle first. Then you can work on the next hurdle. Otherwise, you are going to overwhelm yourself and spin out of control.
Y'all are killing me...

I will think tonite. No, if i am honest with myself i don't want D. But only because I am afraid of all that that implicates. But the thing is I think after a horrible grieving period I will be happier and more free.

But,

Oh crap...

i don't know, she is truly a rotten person, but i see redeeming qualities in her.

Look, I need to be strong here and go in one direction or another. I will think tonight.

It is not a question of strength to do plan B. I think I have been pretty darn strong, it is that it prolongs this, allows cake-eating and isn't enought to jolt her one way or another. For heavens sakes I've been living apart but for weekends for a year, it has made no difference. And, I can't stop meeting her FN either becasue of the kids.

If she won't respond to D, then I didn't want her anyway.

I need to be a rock now.
Posted By: rwinger Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/29/08 12:00 AM
SWW

Have you exposed this to the OM GF?

Perhaps another call to OM (wont do any good perhaps) and say hey Charlie - why will you not butt out of my family?

I also agree with Marsh - but it is tough to do a remote Plan A and then do a full blown Plan B with kids, etc. I hope you find a way back to the home full time soon - this is key.

Just remember - you can give her the release papers anytime at your choosing. Cease the power in the knowledge you have this control over events and this alone can bring you some peace.

It seems there is no action on her part to seek a Plan D - she just wants to eat cake for as long as possible.
Posted By: Marshmallow Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/29/08 12:00 AM
Quote
It is not a question of strength to do plan B.

I agree.

It's not about strength, it's about CONFIDENCE in Plan B.

All BS are afraid Plan B will only push their WS further away from them. But, Plan B is for YOU. To protect you from the drama. And protect your love for your WW, so that when her A burns out, and she wants to R your M, you'll still want to too.

It is COUNTER-INTUITIVE.

Most of the time, it is only when you have implemented it well and are very dark, do you "get it".

Quote
it is that it prolongs this, allows cake-eating and isn't enought to jolt her one way or another. For heavens sakes I've been living apart but for weekends for a year, it has made no difference.

Living apart was a HUGE mistake.

Choosing to continue to live this way is mind boggling to me.

I don't understand why you haven't rectified this sitch by now. Why you haven't moved heaven and earth to move back home... even if you had to take a pay cut, and down size, until you find a better job.

Quote
If she won't respond to D, then I didn't want her anyway.

But, she's already said she wants a D. If you tell her you want one too, then you've freed her from her guilt, and she will probably agree to it.

You're mantra should be, "I want to save this M."

Until you don't.

Threatening D is a bad idea. It is something that is done in desperation.

It is not done by someone who has a plan.

Quote
Look, I need to be strong here and go in one direction or another. I will think tonight.

CALL DR. HARLEY AND GET A PLAN.

And please don't tell me you can't afford it again.

There are plenty of folks here, who make alot less than 200K, and can scratch up enough money to call him.






SWW...try and relax a bit. You ARE going in the right direction.

Even with your geographic challenges, it sound like you attempted the best Plan A you could. The next step in this direction is now Plan B, on your terms and in your time.

Please don't misinterpret anything I say as encouraging D. That's NOT my intent. That may come and I can certainly understand that choice...if YOU make it. Just don't make the mistake of putting the cart before the horse and threatening her with D prematurely.

You can't predict her reaction and you are not yet ready to deal with the drama that will follow regardless of what it is.

You need to follow the steps in this path and you need the solice that Plan B will afford you. You need to get to the point where you are no longer thinking of what she may doing and where and with whom she is doing it...you have no control over that.

In your PBL, you will give your WW the necessary steps back to you that SHE must follow. You will then remove yourself from the day to day drama and finally have time to evaluate your true feelings and make sound decisions. You will then know that you have done all you can and leave the next few steps up to WW.

You will have given her clear, concise instructions on what it will take to R. It is up to her then to follow that road-map or not. If you continue to attempt to manipulate the situation and force her into R against her will, all you will get in the long run is the same WW you have now...one you will not trust or have any confidence in.

Take charge. Give her your terms (PBL), then go dark and have NC with her...only your M. The ball will then be in her court to "wake up" or not. Threatening D when you can't possibly know that you even want it is clearly the nuclear option. I just don't want to see you caught in the blast.

Go dark, leave WW in God's hands, then let Him show you (through her actions) what it is that He intends for you. Remember, "All things work for good..."

Praying for you brother...you really are doing great, though I know you don't feel like it.
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Quote
It is not a question of strength to do plan B.

I agree.

It's not about strength, it's about CONFIDENCE in Plan B.

All BS are afraid Plan B will only push their WS further away from them. But, Plan B is for YOU. To protect you from the drama. And protect your love for your WW, so that when her A burns out, and she wants to R your M, you'll still want to too.

It is COUNTER-INTUITIVE.

Most of the time, it is only when you have implemented it well and are very dark, do you "get it".

Quote
it is that it prolongs this, allows cake-eating and isn't enought to jolt her one way or another. For heavens sakes I've been living apart but for weekends for a year, it has made no difference.

Living apart was a HUGE mistake.

Choosing to continue to live this way is mind boggling to me.

I don't understand why you haven't rectified this sitch by now. Why you haven't moved heaven and earth to move back home... even if you had to take a pay cut, and down size, until you find a better job.

Quote
If she won't respond to D, then I didn't want her anyway.

But, she's already said she wants a D. If you tell her you want one too, then you've freed her from her guilt, and she will probably agree to it.

You're mantra should be, "I want to save this M."

Until you don't.

Threatening D is a bad idea. It is something that is done in desperation.

It is not done by someone who has a plan.

Quote
Look, I need to be strong here and go in one direction or another. I will think tonight.

CALL DR. HARLEY AND GET A PLAN.

And please don't tell me you can't afford it again.

There are plenty of folks here, who make alot less than 200K, and can scratch up enough money to call him.


OK, OK, Thank you.

Marsh, yes i can afford it and i will call harley. It's not that easy though about moving heaven and earth to get home and take a pay cut to do it. I am an intel officer. If you build cars you live in Detroit, if you are intel and a senior officer you live in DC, and I asked her numerous times to move here. The public schools i am zoned for have metal detectors and the kids have to bring their own toilet paper (I know, whine, whine, whine) and my kids with their silver spoons in their mouths would be eaten alive. And remember I have been, and still technically am, in Plan A.

I will try hard not to drop D letter, but might show her implications of D financially.

I got in this AM and logged onto my my unclas system only to receive a bunch of congratulatory emails that I have been selected as the Commanding Officer of a real plum DIA unit.

I am mystified!

I did not apply, did not send in the required full-length photo, basically ignored the whole blinking thing. I am shocked, I don't see how this could happen!

I know God has a plan for me and it is good. Maybe this is a sign not to drop the bomb this weekend, because i can't figure this out. I don;t now what to do now...
Crap!

Now i get the phone bills for the cell and home.

NC at least for those systems.

Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 08/29/08 02:42 PM
How does/would the Command position work geographically?

How much travels involved for the CO?
closer to home jkt.

gotta run. heading home.

gonna follow marsh and ab3's advice for now.

thank you!
Been prayin' for 'ya SWW...

How'd the weekend go?
Update us when you can. Thanks.
thanks for the prayers. will post after am meeting. very confusing 5 days at home.
Well,

I took your advice and did not implement plan B without a solid plan in the works, so i sucked it up and continued plan A for 5 days.

Funny, it seemed to be working. there were glimpses of my former W a few times, we just talked and laughed some, then she would close herself off again completely, like she was catching herself.

She does not want, or at least doesn't want to intitate any physical [censored] with me, not really even a hug, but didn't seem to mind when I did a couple of times.

I admit I did pull an LB at one point when she was acting a little brutish and asked her what her plans were with the kids for the upcoming holidays, that we needed to see who was getting them for Thanksgiving and who for Christmas.

She looked confused, and looked at me and said I thought we would do them all together...

She looks horrible, and i mean awful. She has gained some weight and her skin looks older with more and more lines on her face. I am not saying this to just sound critical, I just noticed the change. She looks depressed.

I told you all about the "abandonment" issue WW brought up. Her childhood was one of basic abandonment by her parents, shipped her to boarding schools, they split up etc. I was reading about "transference" last night and it describes her to a tee. People brought up like this as children often believe this is the way families are supposed to be, they are very unwilling to trust other people, especially as they get closer to them for fear of ultimate rejection, so they close themselves off.

Chaplain stoped by again today and we talked. He told me based on our talking he thinks I have the "rescuer" personality. That I have done it everytime she has screwed up before.

She did ask if I had ever spoken to a lawyer and I said I had, I was preparing for all eventualites should she decide not to reconcile. She asked about it and I gave her the scenario. She lookeed at the ground and said, "well if you want to get ugly about it..."

I said, "no honey, I am just telling you what we can reasonably expect, and alimony for life is not happening, you'll get a couple years, we'll sell the house, divide up time with the kids, you'll have to stop charging on any of my accounts at the country clubs and go as a guest of the kids, life insurance poicies will need to be changed, custody issues discussed etc. etc."

She just looked at the ground, I think in disbelief. I think she really thought I would provide for her forever no matter what.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/04/08 08:39 PM
Now the question is whether you want to do that the rest of your life. There is a payoff in being a rescuer, an enabler, codependent, etc. But it's not healthy (obviously) for either side.

If she were really open to getting counseling and moving on with this, I would say stay, but right now she's not changing her partying behaviors and that needs to be a STRONG component of your Plan B requirements.

I wouldn't say that it's a LB to throw it out there about the Holidays. Even if you weren't doing a Plan A, she isn't ever around for the kids and this is not an odd question to ask.
Sorry it took so long to respond SWW.

Hope things are going well.

Just an outside observation, but, it sounds like your WW REALLY knows how to manipulate you. I hope I'm wrong, but she only attempts to put on a show the limited amount of time you're home and when she needs money. Doesn't sound healthy at all.

Not a 2X4, just an observation...I sincerely hope I'm wrong!
Originally Posted by abandonedwith3
Sorry it took so long to respond SWW.

Hope things are going well.

Just an outside observation, but, it sounds like your WW REALLY knows how to manipulate you. I hope I'm wrong, but she only attempts to put on a show the limited amount of time you're home and when she needs money. Doesn't sound healthy at all.

Not a 2X4, just an observation...I sincerely hope I'm wrong!

yes ab3 you are right. I am having a bad day today.

I didn't tell you all something that is really bothering me. When at home I am still in snoop mode. I found an opened package for a pre-paid wireless phone under our bed that wasn't there a couple of weeks ago.

I know if i confronted her about it she would just say it was from one of the kid's phones from a long time ago and she pushed it under the bed and she doesn't have one. I really don't know what to do. I did not say anything as I would rather she get comforatable that I am not snooping.

I also found underwear that I don't think would fit WW or DD but hey i might be going crazy. Sexy drawers, not new. DD said she played some song recently about "I kissed a girl, it felt real good etc." and it had something about some kind of flavored chapstick in the song. DD said WW said, "Hey, DD, look, flavored chapstick." DD said it was weird. DD said something about some new friend of WW and her friend group, some female 25 yr old Brazilian model who she says is gorgeous.

My headhunter has a lunch meeting with one of the co's that is looking at me next week. maybe something will come of that at least.
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/05/08 05:46 PM
Have you completely dismissed the orders you were offered as not an option?
no I have until 01 OCT to accept or not.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/05/08 09:38 PM
SWW,
I'm not sure if you realize that song that she was referring to is a controversial song about girls being with girls.

It has always bothered me that having the need for sex that she has based on your description of her from her past and forward that she has not had sex with you for so long.

What I mean by that is that she is getting that need fulfilled "somewhere"! She's not taking a time out from that, not with her lifestyle.

For you, it's probably the best thing ever that she is not having SF with you so that you don't get an STD.

It sounds like she is "experimenting" even further. As long as she continues this partying lifestyle, she will remain a drug addict. her "drug" of choice is sex. She may have taken it to a new level now with a female.

So sorry SWW!

Stay the course for Plan B so you can be prepared for the D.
Posted By: Unfettered Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/05/08 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
DD said she played some song recently about "I kissed a girl, it felt real good etc." and it had something about some kind of flavored chapstick in the song.

Thats kinda funny. My wife is deployed to Kuwait and occasionally when I send her a package, I'll put a CD in there with some home movies and new music. The last time I did that, I specifically left that song off of there, even though it had the sort of tempo and sound that I knew she would like. I left it off because the song is about messing around on her boyfriend with another girl. It may be a stretch, but that song is on the radio all the time, and every time I hear it, I think about her affair.

Just recently, we were talking on the phone and she told me how she had downloaded it because she had heard it and LOVED it! Cue the inward *groan* and my reply "Thats nice".
Originally Posted by onlyUcan
SWW,
I'm not sure if you realize that song that she was referring to is a controversial song about girls being with girls.

It has always bothered me that having the need for sex that she has based on your description of her from her past and forward that she has not had sex with you for so long.

What I mean by that is that she is getting that need fulfilled "somewhere"! She's not taking a time out from that, not with her lifestyle.

For you, it's probably the best thing ever that she is not having SF with you so that you don't get an STD.

It sounds like she is "experimenting" even further. As long as she continues this partying lifestyle, she will remain a drug addict. her "drug" of choice is sex. She may have taken it to a new level now with a female.

So sorry SWW!

Stay the course for Plan B so you can be prepared for the D.

UnlyU,

I am familiar with the song and know what it's about. WW has had experiences with other women before and gets real hot about it often during SF. About 1.5 years ago I couldn't find her one evening so I went to the club and she was walking out to her car in the parking lot. Wet from the jacuzzi and in her bikini with another girl and she had this sort of sheepish look on her face. You are right, I am glad I am not having SF with her now, well that's not true, but prob safer. I am starting to get a little antsy about going a year now without though.

Going to call DR Harley for an appt next week. I can't go on without a real plan. It's overdue I know.

Had a long talk with WW saturday night, 1.5 hrs. She "graciously" agreed to wear her wedding rings while we sorted things out. I asked her if she wanted to date other people, she said it wasn't a priority now and she asked me the same thing. I said heck no! The proper response to that question is "Of course not! I am married and dating is out of the question!"

She started feeling me out about various friends of mine that are female, and said that, "people are talking about you and person." I asked how can that be since I have never been out with her. WW sounds jealous, very jealous.

I am confused. If she doesn't care about me why is she jealous? A part of me thinks she was so convinced that I was having an A that she picked the guy she knows I dislike most to have her A with and sub-consciously wanted me to find out.

I told her that her bahaviour presently and in the past was indicative of someone who had suffered some trauma in their childhood. I asked her if perhaps she was the victim of abuse. She was silent.

I told her she had many friends that are concerned about her, that love her. She said everyone has basically abandoned her, including her family.
andrew3

Just recently, we were talking on the phone and she told me how she had downloaded it because she had heard it and LOVED it! Cue the inward *groan* and my reply "Thats nice".

I know the feeling, makes you want to vomit doesn't it?
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/08/08 03:39 PM
SWW,

What concerns me about her "jealousy" is that I think she just wants you and the lifestyle both. She would be jealous of losing what she has because she is a materialist, possessive type of person.

I don't think you can blame or even believe that her "thinking" you had an A led her to do what she has done. You know that she has been this way since LONG before you met her, during your dating and college years with her and now into your M.

This woman does exactly what she needs to in order to get or keep what she wants.

It saddens me that she has a blatant disregard for you in all of this. You are probably right about her childhood trauma triggering where she is in life today, but many people have survived those types of incidents and still had productive lives.

She is an adult and she makes her choice to do what she does.

Please let us know how your session goes with the Harley counseling. Perhaps you should make some notes of the highlights of the significant events and issues so you don't forget to tell something.

I certainly hope you are counseled into a strong Plan B because it's terrible to hear of what you and your children are being subjected to.

Stay strong in your faith also. Perhaps when all is said and done, that is where you will find a true compatible companion that will cherish what you have to offer and be a strong female influence for your children, before it's too late.

Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/08/08 03:52 PM
I observe these things:

You wife does not want you working near home since you will then observe just how much she spends your money partying and drinking and having sex.

You knew she was a partier, yet you married her anyway. Did you ever ask her to quit partying or take away the money for that activity?

She does not want her style crimped. If you want an attractive woman living OFF of you who gives NOTHING to you, she is the one.

You have been letting her do everything she wants on your dime. With no restrictions. Try laying down some rules:

1. No partying
2. No drinking
3. No hanging with friends who party
4. No sex outside the marriage
5. No flirting
6. No dressing slutty outside the home
7. No extra cell phones
8. Needs to get a full time job (too much time on her hands)

Hey, if you want a woman that merely looks good from the outside and gives NOTHING to you, there are a million of them. If you want a decent loving woman who does not party nor cheat, then divorce this woman. You can still meet a nice woman someday who is also cute.

This woman is not going to stop her behaviors but you can try and lay down the law and cut the money flow off. It is worth one try....
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/08/08 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
She started feeling me out about various friends of mine that are female, and said that, "people are talking about you and person." I asked how can that be since I have never been out with her. WW sounds jealous, very jealous.

I am confused. If she doesn't care about me why is she jealous?

I don't think she's jealous. I think she's likely justifying to herself that if you're fooling around, it's more acceptable for her to do the same. She might even *want* you to fool around, so she could excuse her own behaviour.

Originally Posted by Stellakat
I observe these things:

You wife does not want you working near home since you will then observe just how much she spends your money partying and drinking and having sex.

You knew she was a partier, yet you married her anyway. Did you ever ask her to quit partying or take away the money for that activity?

She does not want her style crimped. If you want an attractive woman living OFF of you who gives NOTHING to you, she is the one.

You have been letting her do everything she wants on your dime. With no restrictions. Try laying down some rules:

1. No partying
2. No drinking
3. No hanging with friends who party
4. No sex outside the marriage
5. No flirting
6. No dressing slutty outside the home
7. No extra cell phones
8. Needs to get a full time job (too much time on her hands)

Hey, if you want a woman that merely looks good from the outside and gives NOTHING to you, there are a million of them. If you want a decent loving woman who does not party nor cheat, then divorce this woman. You can still meet a nice woman someday who is also cute.

This woman is not going to stop her behaviors but you can try and lay down the law and cut the money flow off. It is worth one try....

Yeah I know. I did cut off the money, she denied the other cell phone after I told her about it this weekend, and I have told her how I feel about her friends. She responds with nothing bad is going on, we just hang out etc. Of course the kids are alone during these times.

A friend was in DC this weekend and he was asking me about the situation. He is an interrogator for a gov intel agency, so he asks innocuous questions for a long time while your guard is down then pounces. After about 30, "let me ask you something, and tell me this..." he just burst out laughing and said he was sorry but he couldn't help it, he apologized but laughed for 2-3 mins straight and then was like, "SWW what the eff are you doing??? For goodness sakes, this woman is horrible, I can't believe you are still hanging in there." D this b*tch, please, from your friends."

Just got off phone with sister who gave me a dose of the same thing. I did not sleep one wink last night, lay in bed for 7 hours.

I hope dr harley gives me something good. A good plan so i feel like i am at least doing something.

I also faced a couple of embarrasing realities this weekend:

1. I think when I (we BS's) get dumped like this it just blows our minds and, in a fit of jealous desperation will stop at nothing to get back the person that dumped us.

2. I must have a dependent relationship with her, in other words, I must feel like I am going to fizzle out and die if she is not in my life and loves me. That's unhealthy I know and irrational, but it's the way I feel somethimes.

Stella, u are right, she doesnt want me home because it might crimp her style.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/08/08 04:37 PM
Somehow you are willing to put up with her toxic and uncaring treatment of you for WHAT REASONS?

I would find out the reasons you are putting up with this.

I will list a few but they might not be the ones.

1. Afraid of dating to meet the right woman
2. You accidently had kids with her
3. You put up with it already, why change
4. You are not around much so it wont affect you as much
5. You have a need for an ATTRACTIVE woman other men want
6. Your ego depends on being with an ATTRACTIVE woman men want
7. You are wimpy and bend down to a woman, or womankind
8. You had no firm father figure growing up
9. yOu dont have very good self confidence or self love.
10 Maybe the sex was good and you are hoping it comes back.
11. _______________________________
12.____________________________
13.____________________________



I would do some self exploration and write out all your feelings about why you still want her around when she clearly does not want YOU around, only your money!
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/08/08 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
I must feel like I am going to fizzle out and die if she is not in my life and loves me. That's unhealthy I know and irrational, but it's the way I feel somethimes.

FWIW, I don't think that there's anything "unhealthy" or "irrational" about that feeling. I think it's the natural response to the situation that you've found yourself in. I went through it myself for weeks after D-Day.
Stellakat

Somehow you are willing to put up with her toxic and uncaring treatment of you for WHAT REASONS?

I would find out the reasons you are putting up with this.


A lot of truth to the list but not every one. I think the biggest ones are the presence of kids complicates things, her mis-treatment of me makes me want her back more (I know, counterintuitive, but like i want to fix this) and one of the biggest reasons is:

Her physical beauty combined with what I know she is like in bed makes me wild with jealousy that she has been doing those things with someone else! The images came back this weekend big time.

I just can't understand how she can be remorseful on DDAY, tell me how sorry she is etc. Cry. Tell me it will never happen again.

Then, I confront OM Charlie bc she won't do it, and now she is still in a rage but moving to indiferrence. I mean she was mad!

Told me saturday night that I had totally humiliated her, that it was already over, he had a fiance now, that she was trying to figure out the right way to do it, but that, "typically you had to take the bull by the horns and do it YOUR way without even asking me first!"
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/08/08 06:12 PM
My husband, and many other men, know the concept of "Loving a Bit--".

Many men are attracted to a "user, uber bit--, and the psychobit--"

This kind of woman keeps a man running and chasing her. She is wild and untameable and does what she wants whenever, gets what she wants and spends all the man's money with no guilt, and cares nothing for what her man or other men think of her.

Some men are attracted to the chase with this type of woman and the ego gratification when they momentarily "catch" her.

This dance could be addicting since intermittant reinforcement itself is addicting. Intermittant reinforcement is a subtle thing women do (I dont do it) to keep men off balance. It is when a woman gives sex or ego gratification once in a while and then slamms the man most of the time or uses him. Those few good times keep the man keeping her around and paying for stuff.

This would be getting old, however. Since this kind of woman is not a very good wife, not supportive or loving. But some men dont need a loving supportive wife. They like the wild, crazy, untameable ones, the ones who lie, drink, and cheat on them once in a while. Because the uncertantity is addicting. Very stressful, but addicting to some men.


Stellakat

This kind of woman keeps a man running and chasing her. She is wild and untameable and does what she wants whenever, gets what she wants and spends all the man's money with no guilt, and cares nothing for what her man or other men think of her.

Some men are attracted to the chase with this type of woman and the ego gratification when they momentarily "catch" her.


O my gosh! This is her, and me to a tee! All she has to do is be nice to me, smile, rock my world with SF, every once in awhile to make me feel like a champion!

These times are pretty rare which makes me appreciate them even more I guess. WW told me she acted like a b*itch because that was the only way to get my attention or to get things done.

I don't think I want someone like this, but, I must admit, I broke up with her in college because she was too clingy, now I am desperate for a little clinginess...

I think am seriously messed up in the head. But seriously, you really hit the nail on the head with a lot of it.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/08/08 06:37 PM
Hey you are not alone, you and many men are in this same boat. Tom Likus (radio personality) talks about this all the time as does Howard Stern. My husband tells me all about how this happened to him in his dating years. They are called different names, these types of women:

1. Psychosluts
2. Pschycobit--s
3. The Bitc-
4. Psycho-hos
5. Many other names.

But these women are irrestable to some men (my husband included in his younger days chased after some of them) and easily manipulate thier men. All the games these women play get them what they want. I dont need to play games since I have enough self confidence as a woman plus more power and money than most men. (I am cute too)

But i see my girlfriends sometimes play these little games with thier men. Or talk about other women who play them all the time. After a while it would be like a habit for a woman to be these ways.

You should hear women talk:

"How can I get an expensive _______outa my husband?

"Well, you could refuse to have sex with him for a few weeks, then ask him for __________ again...."

"My husband is so stupid, I got a ten day vacation out of him by just ______________! Geeze!


Many women have no respect for thier men. They have a sense of entitilment a mile long and do not want to work for anything or contribute to the household. They use little games to keep thier men under control. I see it all the time in women I know. (who are not my friends)

http://www.mypsychobitch.com/guidelines.htm

Many women have no respect for thier men. They have a sense of entitilment a mile long and do not want to work for anything or contribute to the household. They use little games to keep thier men under control. I see it all the time in women I know. (who are not my friends)

Oh yeah, my WW defintitely used SF when we were dating to keep me in the fold and to get me to marry her. It was insane like several hours a day. Then when I wasn't doing what she wanted it was kind of doled out less, until I would put my foot down or ignore her and she would back off, or down.

She also used this tactic when I broke up with her to make me jealous, she started sleeping with my fraternity brother and showed up to a biker party in some kind of rubber pants with holes in them and electric tape on her nipples and flirted up a storm with her new boyfriend, till i said i wanted her back and she marched into the frat house right then and dumped in on the spot.

You have really opened my eyes here. I have been manipulated like a dog. And I just go back for more all the time.

Her mother told her, and my grandmother if you can believe it, that "men are meant to be ridden like a horse by their wives to give them the lifestyle they need."

It used to be that when I would "man up" she would always back down from the b*itchy attitude eventually. Well not this time, she's playing it for the long haul.

I seriously would not be surprised if she had this A to manipulate me in some way. That is what her best friend told me she was doing. But I think it went further than she thought it would and she developed real feelings for OM charlie.

Either way, she is now just torturing me in my Plan A days.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/08/08 09:30 PM
SWW,

I don't think she had the A to "mess with you". I think she has done this since day 1 with both sexes and you just "caught her" this time.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/08/08 09:49 PM
I agree, she has manipulated him daily, but not in the ways he thinks.....
Please...PLEASE...listen to these people. They are giving you solid, un-biased observations based on your description of this ordeal. They have your best interests in mind.

You sound far too intelligent to allow yourself to be manipulated again and again. Step back, look at this objectively, and apply the logic that I know you possess.

You cannot survive this thinking one thing logically but basing your actions totally on emotion. I remember those days vividly. I would read a post or comment here (especially Stella's. LOL), agree with it 100% and even acknowledge so, but would then remove myself from the opinion and go back into my emotional distress and try to do it my way because of my feelings and fears.

Even you can see what doing it your way has gotten you.

You youreself made the statement to me several weeks ago that you KNOW that you can survive without her. Do you REALLY know that yet? It's one thing to say it during a moment of anger, but another to actually move on and do it.

You stated that you feel obligated to continue for the sake of your children. I propose that you are doing your children MORE harm by allowing them to continue to see dad being manipulated and mom emberassing them. Is this the type of marriage you want them to have as adults? I assure you their relationships will mirror what they grew up seeing as "normal." What you are showing them is FAR from "normal."

I am praying for you, I KNOW how hard this is. However, I also know what a tremendous sense of relief and joy you will feel when you finally do see the reality of this logically and do what you fear the most.

If R is the ONLY thing that will make you happy, I hope you achieve it, but I know from experience what a fine line it is between feeling desperate to save the M and then conversely feeling complete freedom from it and its drama.

Stay Strong!
Stella, onlyU, ab3;

Y’all are right. Hey, I was having one of my backsliding couple of days thingie. Had a real interesting experience that when I recount for you may result in a few 2X4’s and “what have we been trying to tell you’s???!!!”

I was lying in bed last night, feeling a sense of panic coming over me like a panic attack or something. I didn’t sleep at all Sunday night and fell asleep last night at 10PM only to wake up at 1AM and not able to fall back asleep. I don’t know if any of you have experienced this anxiety feeling but it was pretty severe. I started praying for wisdom, guidance, strength…and sleep. I told God I was reaching the end and didn’t know what I had to look forward to. I think he knew, well of course he did. I was reaching a pretty serious moment though.

All of a sudden I felt totally relaxed, like I was drifting on the bed and the word “discipline” came into my head, I started thinking about the word very hard, where it came from all of a sudden, and was getting all sorts of thoughts about discipline and how it pertains to my life right now. I realized I have not been acting with discipline at all. I have been expecting God to answer my pleas without any responsibility or real work on my part.

I have been trying to mentally avoid this “life trial” instead of facing it head on so I could grow as a person and come out stronger on the other end. Oh sure, I have been plan A’ing etc. getting a plan B together, but really I have been anxious about trying to control my WW and her actions instead of working on myself. I have been completely neglecting myself thru this entire thing.

I decided on a number of concrete first steps:

1. No more drinking wine during the week.
2. Get more sleep.
3. Keep appt with Harley’s but no expectations for miracle solution.
4. Stop the manipulation attempts and checking up on WW from afar.
5. Exercise every day.
6. Lose a couple of pounds.
7. Eat healthier.
8. Take a class on a computer software program I may need for a civilian job.
9. Get my shirts and suits cleaned for the day that I return home.
10. Read more.
11. Daily envision my life as a successful corporate executive that dresses nicely, works hard and takes care of his kids most of all by spending quality time with them and listening to them.
12. Continue to pray for wisdom and for specific outcomes if it is His will, but to pray for strength, resolve and discipline.

There were more but you get the drift. My WW is either going to change or she’s not. No amount of manipulation on MY part is going to do that. Why am I asking her to wear her wedding rings? If she doesn’t want to she’ll just be resentful that I asked her.

I have to do this stuff for ME and my kids. My WW is avoiding pain and responsibility by partying and sleeping around. She does not desire to grow as a human being because that requires facing pain and difficulty. A life truly lived involves a lot of pain, and to deal with that pain requires love and discipline.

Sorry for the long post and philosophical ramblings; just what’s on my mind. Oh yeah, I slept like a rock until morning.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/09/08 03:48 PM
You know what? That's perfect and shows that you are growing through this process. Very normal, very much what all the other BS's experience. No 2X4 necessary. You aren't going to be PERFECT through this. As long as you are moving forward, YOU can feel like you are making progress, that's all that matters.

We are here to be your support and to give you the clearer version sometimes from the outside looking in at what the wayward one is saying and doing to you.

A personal Recovery plan is very important as well. It's the only thing that has worked for me this time around. And it did make a difference for my spouse in his behavior towards me. BUT that is NOT why I did it. I did it for ME. And I will continue to do those things for ME. I find that when I am stronger (disciplined), everything is easier to work through and seems like it's not as heavy a load and all will be well.

Keep up the progress.
Posted By: imagine Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/09/08 05:03 PM
Thank you for these points for consideration.

I shall try to apply these to my life.
Good going!

These points of self inflection are a great start. Remember, by working on yourself, you ARE improving yourself as a husband. Obviously, it may not be with your current WW, but the best lessons in life are learned the hard way and you will be a better, stronger mate in the end.

OnlyU is exactly right, do these things for yourself, NOT in an effort to win back WW.

TRUST ME, in time, your WW will realize what she's giving up and wish to R. The question will then become whether or not you CHOOSE to. It will all be up to you then...get it?

You have admitted that WW will have to change DRASTICALLY for her to be a healthy mate and mother. Of course I believe that God CAN change people...but your WW doesn't exactly sound receptive to His Hand in her life.

Take care of you! Draw closer to your kids and your faith. Nothing negative can possibly come from either of those things, regardless of what happens in your M!
Posted By: myopia Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/10/08 07:37 AM


You are right about the wine.

I believe wine is a depressant especially white wine.I found that the following day after drinking wine I would be over emotional, tearful and overwhelmed. Not the best way to deal with emotional problems.
Originally Posted by myopia
You are right about the wine.

I believe wine is a depressant especially white wine.I found that the following day after drinking wine I would be over emotional, tearful and overwhelmed. Not the best way to deal with emotional problems.

Yep. I love a glass or 2 of red wine with dinner, it soon turns into whine, however...

Sorry, that was terrible but I couldn't resist.
Originally Posted by abandonedwith3
Good going!

These points of self inflection are a great start. Remember, by working on yourself, you ARE improving yourself as a husband. Obviously, it may not be with your current WW, but the best lessons in life are learned the hard way and you will be a better, stronger mate in the end.

OnlyU is exactly right, do these things for yourself, NOT in an effort to win back WW.

TRUST ME, in time, your WW will realize what she's giving up and wish to R. The question will then become whether or not you CHOOSE to. It will all be up to you then...get it?

You have admitted that WW will have to change DRASTICALLY for her to be a healthy mate and mother. Of course I believe that God CAN change people...but your WW doesn't exactly sound receptive to His Hand in her life.

Take care of you! Draw closer to your kids and your faith. Nothing negative can possibly come from either of those things, regardless of what happens in your M!

Ab3,

Heading to my cousins wedding this weekend with the kids in the NC mountains. My whole family will be there, except WW that is. She got a job working for some friends who do event planning and she is working Sunday's home opener, I think she is also freaked out at the prospect of seeing my faily again as she knows they know, and thus she has cut off all ties.

I leased a house with a friend in DC. It is month to month. He is telling everybody at work how great it is, that I cook most nights (I have always enjoyed cooking) and clean up (I honestly don't mind) and am neat and easy to live with.

The word is spreading, apparently these are attractive qualites to a lot of women...other than my WW that is, but oh well.

Cheers,

SWW
I could use a little prayer help today if any of you can give me a minute of your time. My headhunter is having lunch with one of the companies about my resume.

I am sure if you said a little prayer for SWW HE would know who you mean.

Thanks,


SWW
Got it and Did it! Best of luck, keep us updated!
SWW, your silence worries me. What's going on with you?

Been thinkin' about and prayin' for 'ya.
Originally Posted by abandonedwith3
SWW, your silence worries me. What's going on with you?

Been thinkin' about and prayin' for 'ya.

Hi Ab3,

Have to travel again, leaving again tomorrow till end of next week. Had a great weekend with the kids at the wedding though and things progressing nicely with 2 job offers. With what i'll tell you below though, i am not sure it is the absolute right time to go home yet.

Until I can schedule a couple of days where I know I'll be avail can't set anything up with Harleys, schedule to fluid. I don't even know my schedule (flights etc.) for the next 2 weeks.

I have been in a sort of modified plan b. I just haven't been talking to WW at all for about 10 days. She has started texting me and emailing me etc.like you said she would, but I only respond when it's really necessary. She called DD while we were in N Carolina for the wedding to tell her that we were all invited to TX for Christmas and when DD asked if I was included WW said of course.

Thing is, like you did, I am now seriously considering the viability of this M. WW is not going to change unless under duress, and then what kind of change is that?

I am starting to have health problems. I went to the doctor and my blood pressure was 147/105 (it's normally 115/78 or so). Doc asked about stress and I said heck yeah. I now have to get my bp tested twice a day for 3 days in a row.

I have also been having horrible nightmares of driving or being a passenger in a car/boat/golf cart/18 wheeler and running off the road over a cliff. I have also been having nightmares of people being killed in front of me by having their throats cut and then people coming after me.

Possibly 1 of the most embarrasing things ever happened to me yesterday. I was reading an award citation for a senior officer who had received a meritorious service medal. In the middle I was overcome with panic and started shaking really badly and couldn't breathe. I had to hand the citation to someone else to read and people thought I was going to faint. I made up a lame excuse, and thank goodness I had given blood that AM and still had the bandage on my arm for cover.

This to a person who frequently has to give speeches and briefs off the cuff and on the fly to hundreds of people with little lead time. I have no problems whatsoever with public speaking.

Talked to my sister, the psych major afterwords. She said SWW, really, enough is enough, your situation is now seriously affecting your health. Your dreams shout, "I am out of control" and your adrenalin is pumping so hard that the addition of 1 small amount of stress caused you to panic.

I am walking everyday (I'm scared to run after what the doc said) and trying to simply not think about WW and her whereabouts. I think it is helping somewhat, but then again I am not so sure. More later.

Thanks for the check-in.
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/17/08 05:44 PM
SWW, You've got the prayers on the job front.

The only time in my life I've been monitored for high blood pressure... At the time of my retirement/potential D. I did the 5 day study monitoring BP 3x a day. Strangely enough, it was at it's lowest within one hour after leaving the GYM! What does that tell ya.

Dreams: I had a recurring dream about hitting an overpass concrete post at superslab speed way to often. Same time frame.

I've experienced hyperventellation half a dozen times in my life. 5 of which were within a 60 day period mentioned above. Once when I almost sufficated in the bottom of a football dogpile, in a snow bank.

Without picking up any 2x4's...

Rignt now, what job option(s) is best for someone who's made a career from speaking/briefing, yet can't finish an award ceremony without almost falling out.

Can you bring your "A" game to corporate?

What career path is best considered? Picking a job that will benefit your M, or the job that will benefit you and your kids? Is the answer the same regardless?

A good friend of mine called yesterday to see if I had a free weekend coming up. He lost his 200K a year government supported job last week. He needs to come decompress "drink beer, play golf". 01 October sucks in our world.

Skipper, FY09 is closing fast, and you've got options.

-JKT

It's about time for an update, don't you think SWW?

Take a minute and read the last post on my thread. I can't wait to read a similar one here in the very near future.

Stay strong and true...you will survive this ordeal and come out grateful for the experience and its results in the end!
hey guys/gals,

I am in New orleans. I told you the doctor gave me bad news so I told WW about it and asked for D. Had a 2 hour telelphone call last night.

She is apparently either a huge liar or she is out of her mind.

She doesn't remember telling me that she "doesn't think she did anything wrong." She is adamant. She doesn't remember a ton of crap, it is weird!

She doesn't remember a lot of things she said that are so clear to me, but the weird thing is she sounds like she believes it.

I don't know what I am going to do. I go home in a week.

She sounds like she wants to try to get things back together, but...i don't know.

I told her I think I may be a dependent person, and she too. She told me "please SWW, you are always talking so far above my head with this psychology talk, I can't keep up with you."

I said, "I think you defintely need psychotherapy, you have an "i think you are going to abandon me, so I will leave you first" mentality.

For the first time ever, she agreed! She said it might be the case and she needs to see a counselor.

She insisted she is not seeing OM charlie, which worried me bc I didn't bring it up.

He!!, I don't know.
SWW...Sounds like she is once again trying to manipulate you by offering you a revised history of all that has happened. You KNOW what you've gone through, don't let her minimize this to you.

If you fall for it, you can count on being where you are right now again in the future. Would you EVER want to live through these past few months again?

Trust me, I fell for the BS TWICE before this last episode!!!
It will happen again if you let it.

Remember, "Those who ignore the future are doomed to repeat it!"

Stay Strong!
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/24/08 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by abandonedwith3
SWW...Sounds like she is once again trying to manipulate you by offering you a revised history of all that has happened. You KNOW what you've gone through, don't let her minimize this to you.

If you fall for it, you can count on being where you are right now again in the future. Would you EVER want to live through these past few months again?

Trust me, I fell for the BS TWICE before this last episode!!!
It will happen again if you let it.

Remember, "Those who ignore the future are doomed to repeat it!"

Stay Strong!

The above is possible. But she also might be realizing that she lost you.

It happened to me. As fast as you can flip a coin, it all changed.
JKT,

"The above is possible. But she also might be realizing that she lost you.

It happened to me. As fast as you can flip a coin, it all changed."


What happened in your situation if you don't mind me asking?

I am, like i think AB3 would caution me to, being very circumspect. I really don't want to waste the rest of my life, but I don't want to give up too easily either. For the first time in months the other night she actually sounded kind of scared, and remorseful. I know a lot of it is financial worries on her part and the fear of being alone. I have thought about something OnlyUcan told me and I think she is right. I think my WW really did fall for this guy and it wasn't "just about sex."

I took the orders by the way, in this economic environment I need to be safe. I can opt out early if I need to due to a certain circumstance that is unusual in my community. The company i am looking at says they need some time to get funding. God has truly taken care of me during this in ways I am so grateful for.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/24/08 10:49 PM
SWW,

I think you need to stay to your plan. You know that she has a prepaid cell phone, you found the wrapper under the bed. You have also found condom boxes with missing condoms. There is just far too much evidence that shows that she is living a lifestyle that is not in support of your MARRIAGE! In addition, you have the suspicions regarding female interaction.

I think she will tell you whatever you want to hear. That is why you have to do Plan B before you go to Plan D IMO, because now if you take it back, she knows that she still can play you and have total control.

Plan B is about you getting in total control of what affects YOU and then making a choice of what to do from there.

I don't believe that you will TRULY know what to do until you have done a DARK Plan B and removed yourself from HER and this situation and then processed it. Perhaps during that Plan B, she will follow through on some of your requirements for reconciliation and you will begin to see some actual ACTION steps to recovery. Right now, she just talks.

Going to counseling should be in your Plan B letter, along with many other things. She needs to put her money where her mouth is.

IMO, if you continue to ask her for D, it will just complicate things because you aren't really ready for D, you are just ready for the pain to end.
Posted By: MogiSola Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/24/08 10:58 PM
I haven't posted in awhile...but I agree completely with Only. She has shown you that she isn't invested in your M and now that she is feeling like you are really pulling away, she is trying to reel you back in. I think that you are susceptible to this manipulation (as many of us are) because you really WANT it to work out. The problem is, she knows that.

You need to go completely DARK. No contact with her for a length of time. Get in touch with what YOU want without allowing her the opportunity to muddy your thinking with her words. She needs to SHOW you with ACTIONS. And those actions need to be DRAMATIC. Every time you have contact with her, she is able to pull you back in just enough to make you question your decisions. You need to withdraw enough that you can really FEEL what your decision is.

I have had a HUGE change in my recovery, but it was something that came after I let go of my H and started to seriously focus on MY needs, MY desires, MY happiness separate from him. He may have sensed it, or it may have been the right time...either way, something shifted and I no longer feel like H is "sort of" former. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that he is committed to our recovery. It is a certainty that was missing from our recovery before.

Stay the course.

MogiSola
Posted By: Gamma Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/24/08 11:10 PM
SWW,

You are making alpha-male money, why do you put up with this non-sense. Please take an inventory of your self-worth, don't tie your conception of yourself to this nutcase. I think you need to move on and get a woman worthy of your deciency, give her as little as possible. You've spoiled her rotten from what I've read.

God Bless
NJ
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 09/30/08 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
JKT,

"The above is possible. But she also might be realizing that she lost you.

It happened to me. As fast as you can flip a coin, it all changed."


What happened in your situation if you don't mind me asking?

Sorry for the delay. Preps for FY09 have me juggling. Not I don't mind sharing, but it will be a short cliff notes version.

I was hit with the I Love you but I'm not in love with you speech about 4 months before retirement.

I had no idea of an A. I was alway comfortable having a very traditional wife, and could honestly deploy without concern for her actions. That being said, I took advantage, I did more than my fair share of abusing our relationship. When I was not deployed my time and activities took priority. I was very selfish. She also knew I'd had my own A 7 years prior.

That set the table for destruction.

I had no clue her desire for a D was result of her involvement with OM when she gave me the ILYBNILWY speech.

My response was all wrong. Begging to work it out, LB's, etc..

Months later, and nearing retirement, I gave in to D. I began job hunting actively, and found a position working in support of the aircraft I was so familiar with. Only problem was the location was 200 miles away from home.

I had dinner plans with my W one evening but cancelled our plans in order to met a friend who was in town partially to recruit me for a position.

The wife was suspicious as to why I had cancelled our plans considering how hard I'd been working to be a good husband. Her imagination got the best of her, she thought I was out with another woman. She called numerous time while I was out but my phone was shut off.

After dinner I had a dozen missed calls. I went to a quiet area at the lake to think about what I was going to do. I had pretty much checked out on the idea our M would survive. I now needed to plan the fallout of taking this position. mainly I had to consider the kids. I was not going to see them daily, custody issues, etc.

It was probably midnight when I got home. She was waiting on the porch bench less than happy.

I got questioned as to who I was with, where did she live, etc. I laughed... "Not a good response". I asked her why is it she was acting so jealous considering she wanted a D so badly?

When she got done, and gave me the opportunity to talk, I explained what I had been doing, and why I was out so late.

We "I" went to be about 1:30ish. By 3AM she woke me up crying that she wanted to work on the M.

She realized I had given into her request for D, that I was done fighting to save it. That our M and family was about to become broken at her request. Now the only hope for the M remained with her.

She went back and forth on her decision to work on the M, or persue D a couple times over the next month. Come to find out later, it was because of OM, who I was still unaware of.

Shortly after, she broke off contact with him. He showed up at a B-day party he knew she would be attending. Attempted contact but was shot down. He got jealous "Please", and decided I should know about their A.


Justkeeptrying,

Very similar situations. My WW was convinced I was having an A. I wasn't but I was acting in a way that convinced her I was due to a female officer friend of mine. I now see the error of my ways in that regard. I went to dinner with her in DC one night. I told my WW I was going beforehand etc. and she responded "great", I now find out she was wildly jealous and told all her girfriends about it. It honestly never entered my mind that she would see more to it than what it was, friendship and professional. WRONG of me!

Heading home this weekend. We'll see what happens. I can't tell if WW is in withdrawals or is still in active/occasional A. I just don't know. I think she is going back and forth like a yo-yo because even if she is not sleeiping with OM charlie, she still bumps into him from time to time. Despite promises of NC etc. and my confronting them both it still occasionally happens.
Okay SWW...TRUE story from the ABW3 file.

Twelve years ago I was managing a retail jewelry store at a mall in a nearby town. WW's mom was living in VA and WW was planning to take a trip up to spend the weekend and take our then 1 year old son. It was a Friday and I thought she was in route to VA but WW had instead decided to surprise me by staying home, getting a sitter, and coming to the mall to meet me at closing.

While leaving the mall that night, a female employee explained to me that she had parked her vehicle on the opposite side of the mall from the rest of us. I offered to take her to her car and instructed her to get in mine. Just as we both settled in for our journey "around the mall," WW pulls up in front of my car and automatically assumes I am about to dishonor my wedding vows and jealously accuses me of having an A.

The truth was that I was very innocently looking out for the safety of an employee. Within one week, WW starts the whole ILYBINILWY talk and begins spending evenings "out with friends."

Niavely, I trusted her and allowed 3-4 weeks to pass before becoming suspicious of her.

Long story short...this was the genesis of WW's first affair with our then pastor's son. Once I found out, I threatened him(sound familiar?) and even chased him once down a state highway pledging to "kill him (I'm sure I wouldn't have)."

After a 3 week separation, WW returned home, without any remorse, and I completely ignored what had happened without any consequences to her or the M. I THOUGHT I was doing what was best for my son.

Ten years later, I learn she is having an EA with a coworker...a chaplain.

Six months ago, she states the whole ILYBINILWY bull again and I learn about the new chaplain-OM. She even rewinds time back and says that she only left the original OM (WAY back when...) because he was afraid of me and fled. Justifying her current actions by re-writing our entire marital history.

You see, MY actions got me what I wanted then, but where have they gotten me now. I don't regret R 12 years ago because my two daughters were the end result...but, personally, I would have enjoyed twelve years of the happiness I'm experienceing now had I just followed the MB Plan (which I had never heard of then).

LESSON: Stop analyzing emotionally and follow the plans you've already pledged to initiate. Your sanity, happiness, and children are depending on it. Trust me!
abandonedwith3 et. al.,

After reading yours and JKT's posts I am really at a crossroads. As I posted I am heading home tomorrow.

OnlyU advised to do the Plan B letter first and do a dark Plan B.

Funny thing is, I really am not sure I even want to go thru with it. If I get the jist of your post AB3, you seem to be saying that our WW's had it "programmed into their brains" to have an A (A"S) and used suspiscion of A's on our part to act out on what they wanted to do anyway.

I think my WW is really depressed and walled off emotionally. I think she needs help with it from a professional. She has closed off ties to anyone from her past including her family and old friends. She goes to bed by 7:30 PM every night, unless it's a party night, and is, I don't know just strange.

But you know, I can't beg someone to talk to me or get help. Oh sure she talks to me when she gets the impression I am going to bail, but other than that it's just updates on the kids etc.

My dad is in town and she hasn't brought my kids over once to see him. I think she is scared/embarassed because she knows he knows all about the A and doesn't want to face him. He is living most of the year on his ranch in Idaho and so rarely gets to see the kids, I'll remedy that this weekend.

I'll post a plan B letter here for y'all's inputs if you would be so kind, and I will try it, but at this point I am feeling that if she cannot make the effort to at least discuss these issues and wants to live with her head stuck in the sand forever, where does that leave me?

On another note, if anyone can answer this for me I would appreciate it. I have Sprint service for our cell phones. WW texts me while I am in New Orleans last week and since she is in my contacts her text comes in as from "WW" with her phone number. Then a couple of hours later she texts me again, but now her text screen name comes in as: "WW z1nwip, nip2. 1r" or something like that but with the same phone number. A series of numbers, letters, period and spaces. Being continuosly suspicious I wonder if she traded out her SIM card, or what?

We BH's make ourselves crazy, and I for one am past tired of it.
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/02/08 07:04 PM
A new SIM card should require a new phone number. Does she have a phone that sends "email" texts as well? I would call Sprint and ask them.

As for the Plan B letter, it is for YOU. Ab3 can tell you his input on Plan B since he did a Dark one. I suggested it because I think it will be the stage that you will be able to put all your fears and questions about R to rest.

Honestly, I don't see her ever changing and I'm hoping you get a D and get those kids out of that environment. (trust me, I am pro-Marriage)

You do need a Plan though, a plan that you can stick to so that you are always moving forward at some pace.
Like OnlyU, I too am 100%, absolutely, positively PRO-MARRIAGE!

Unfortunately, our WW's and society in general have this idea that marriage is a 50/50 partnership. It is not!

A successful marriage (like I'm an authority, LOL) is BOTH parties giving 90% while only expecting 10% in return.

SWW...you and I have not had that!

I am with OnlyU on the Plan B. Do it for your own sanity and to give WW the realization that you can and will go on without her. My guess is that yours will be a very short Plan B (mine was only about 6 weeks!).

Look at Plan B as your "Buffer Zone" between the drama and normalcy. Your life WILL become normal again and you will clearly be able to make decisions without so much "noise."

You seem convinced of what will eventually happen. Like OnlyU, I see D in your future as well. But...we aren't living your life...you are. You have to make your own decisions and consider MORE THAN ANYTHING the ramifications for your children.

God Bless!
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/03/08 02:46 PM
A new SIM card can be assigned to an existing phone number at anytime. With or without a new phone.

For example: A SIM card goes bad. The phone works fine. You call the service provider and active the SIM ID to the exsisting device. It nothing more than matching the card to the IMEI number on the phone.

Although SIM card failure is abnormal.

The strange display you received might be as simple as a different carriers phone towers processing. In otherwords, don't read into it unless you see a pattern in the same geographical location.

Good luck this weekend. Have fun, with or without her!
thank you all,

heading out now. couldn't have maintained my sanity or sense of balance without you!!!

SWW
Folks,

One last thought, stopped on the way home. If this thought is a fundamental aspect of this whole process and has been exhaustively discussed please forgive me all.

Upon reflection it seems to me that there is no desperation quite like that of a BS. It is the desperation to "save the M" right?? After all Marriage is a sacred thing, right. That's what we are fighting for, right? I think not.

The desperation of the BS has its roots in selfishness. Now don't get me wrong or anything, but i think if one truly analyzes it, it is the desperate pain that arises when someone closest to us has wronged us severely in the most personal way that causes us to react in a non-traditional way. In most circumstances we would lash out at that individual and cut them off without a second thought.

But we BS's try to get the offender to love us again; not for the sake of the M, but I think at its root, for our own self esteem. It leads us to very muddled thinking I believe.

Posted By: imagine Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/04/08 05:40 PM
Makes sense. If one is just in it to mark territory, then this is not love.
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/06/08 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Folks,

One last thought, stopped on the way home. If this thought is a fundamental aspect of this whole process and has been exhaustively discussed please forgive me all.

Upon reflection it seems to me that there is no desperation quite like that of a BS. It is the desperation to "save the M" right?? After all Marriage is a sacred thing, right. That's what we are fighting for, right? I think not.

The desperation of the BS has its roots in selfishness. Now don't get me wrong or anything, but i think if one truly analyzes it, it is the desperate pain that arises when someone closest to us has wronged us severely in the most personal way that causes us to react in a non-traditional way. In most circumstances we would lash out at that individual and cut them off without a second thought.

But we BS's try to get the offender to love us again; not for the sake of the M, but I think at its root, for our own self esteem. It leads us to very muddled thinking I believe.

Are you fighting from a competitive desire to save self esteem? Sure you are.

The fact that you recognise it means it's becoming a larger percentage than it should.



Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/06/08 07:39 PM
There is truth to what you are saying when there has been no boundaries or boundary enforcements. This has been described as "enmeshment" and I must agree that I have suffered from this.

When we are not clearly defined as who we are and we are dependent upon another person to make us feel good, we are fighting for that "normalcy" that we have created.

I don't think married couples set out to do this, but it happens. It can happen in parent-child relationships as well.

That's just what I have learned through the whole process. The more I loved myself and learned to be whole and complete as "me", the less I was looking for reconciliation to be my fix all.
Yes...Yes...and, YES!

I think you've got it SWW.

We are "fixers" and think we HAVE to fix the M if that's what's broken.

We want what we can't have and will figure out how to get it at almost ANY cost.

You've figured out what I finally did...I was trying to save my M just for the sake of my M...you know, to prove I could.

Truth is, I could have...still can if I choose. I'm still getting texts asking to come home from WW.

Funny thing though, while I would have killed to have gotten those when I was still at your stage in all of this, now I just ignore them.

When it stops being about pure, unconditional love, it's time to re-asses efforts at R.

I was desperately trying to save a M where love had dissappeared years ago.

We guys deserve the fairytale too you know?

Now, you're seeing the forrest more and less of the trees. Get into Plan B and make the decisions that are best for you and your children, then proceed accordingly.
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/07/08 03:45 PM
SWW,

I hope you pulled the Plan B trigger. I suspect you are rightfully coming to the end of desire to fight for your M.

At no fault to you, part time, long distance plan A is not getting it done.

-JKT
Hi folks,

boy could I have used y'all insight last week but circumstances precluded me from posting. Sorry if this seems like a shameless bump, will post more in a bit.

AB3, JKT, OnlyU I am on the train! Whoo Whoo!

Well, maybe, but where is the train going?
Well,

I could use some advice. I was at home all last week. My dad sold his house so I spent most of the week helping him clear out stuff to move to his ranch, as well as going thru 40 years of accumulated things, many of sentimental value. It was a rough week to be honest.

Since I am not yet in plan B I took the advice and did plan A while at home. WW is still not able/willing to talk about the future of our R, or any real serious issues at all, but we had a lot of laughs. It was, to be honest almost like we were in the dating stage again. She hugged me and kissed me and we hung out a lot. I could tell she was really trying to get along. I did tell her on Tuesday we really needed to talk though about the future and could we have lunch? She said sure and suggested a Mexican place we all used to go to.

We went thursday and had a 2 hour lunch, just chatting and babbling and laughing etc. about nothing in particular. As we got ready to go however, I suddenly realized that we hadn't discussed anything in regard to our future. So I said, hey, can we talk about stuff for a minute? She said ok and the conv. went something like this: (I am sure I am going to get some 2x4's for this)

Me: I think we need to talk about our R and where things are going?

WW: I thought we were, this was great, one of the nicest times we have ever had.

Me: I know, I agree. Maybe I just need to hear something from you that is more definitive, like yes I still love you and want to make it work. Something, other than acting like we are just friends.

WW: Why do you have to ruin it? You should know me well enough by now after 24 years that I am not good at expressing my feelings. And I don't want to. I don't want to answer any more questions about OM charlie, and I just can't commit to anything right now.

Me: It upsets me that you still haven't told me what I asked you about the A. I know it was going on a lot longer than you say and was much more involved. You just seem incapable of telling me the truth. I just don't see how I can trust you right now.

WW: I have told you the truth and if anything 5-6 times might have even been a little embellished since you seemed to be so convinced there was more to it. It seems though that now we can only focus on my A. That nothing else that happened between us matters and I am the only bad guy in this, your drinking was a real problem and I think it still is and if you can't do anything about that...(gets up and starts to walk out.)

Me: Stop, please, if you walk out that only tells me you can't sit still to work on this and that will end in D. (She stops by the table we talk a minute and walk together to the counter and pay bill and walk outside to talk for another 25 minutes.)I tell her I have admitted my past wrongs and have asked her forgiveness, but I got a 1 day "I feel awful for how bad I hurt you;" then "I still don't think I did anything wrong." She doesn't believe the words "I don't think I did anything wrong" came from her mouth.

WW: I am sorry, I know you just want me to fall on my knees, beg forgiveness and make all this right again. I know you want to start having SF again, but I just can't go there right now.

Me: I think if you were to just throw me a bone I could continue in the knowledge that I am not fighting this battle alone or upstream. Like Hansel and Gretel, if you could just put out the first breadcrumb I would know there is a trail at least.

WW: SWW, I am sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear. I just can't put my feelings out there right now.

Me: Well, I can't do this alone, I am very sorry WW, I didn't want it to come to this, but I see no option but to split up, maybe informally at first, I mean do you want a legal separation in order to date other people?

WW: There's no such thing as legal separation in our state, and no I don't have any intentions of dating other people, but I can't control what you do.

Me: I guess I was looking for something there as well, like you telling me you didn't want me to date others, but I guess you can't even say that as well?

WW: I said I can't control what you do...I just don't know but I can't talk about it, I just don't know.

Me: Well good lunch.

I walked to my car, went to my dad's and collapsed from exhaustion.

My cellphone rings and it's WW's ex BF (before the "new crowd") She asks how lunch goes and I tell her. She says she has been praying for us everyday, and that she knows how hard it is but to keep trying. She reminds me how WW has always had a "hard shell" around her and can't admit to anything wrong. She said WW now won't discuss the A at all and just looks at the ground when she asks how she feels about it, can she forgive herself and move on and reconcile etc. WW just can't talk or face it.

Friend says "SWW, it is HUGE that she has started wearing her wedding rings all the time, especially after how she talked about you and how she told everyone you were getting a D, and big that you are in the house when she told everyone she would leave if you moved back in" (even though she sleeps in DD's room.) She said hang in there, "crack that shell."

I left Monday and WW came over and was going thru some things at dad's before I left. She was picking up pictures of people and other things and putting them in a basket to take home, things she said "shouldn't get thrown away, they were special to your Mom."

I went to get in the car and she hugged me and said drive safely.

I am feeling stubborn today. I was confused last week and exhausted and to be honest it was so nice to get back to my quiet house in DC to decompress.

I am trying to consider a Plan B with the proviso that unless we get these issues in the open and she acknowledges she is going to make a good faith effort I don't see the point in going on. That I will plan B until she lets Mediator know she is ready to talk seriously, openly and honestly. I know WW, she wants to move on and pretend nothing happened and if enough time goes by spending time together as friends we will all forget about it and it can go into the huge bag of unresolved issues/guilt she has locked away since childhood.

I just don't think that's healthy.

I don't know whether to give this and God more time and be patient for Him to tell me what to do, or go to plan B and kinda force the issue. I began my PB letter (revised) this AM. Maybe that is what God wants me to do in order to be happy in the long run.

Whew, sorry for the long post...
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/15/08 06:51 PM
Did we ever talk about the possibility that she is bipolar or borderline personality disorder? Her behavior sounds so much like my daughter who is borderline. You may want to do a little research on it. The bad thing about it is that there is no cure and they usually won't ever get help. Check out the book Walking on Egg Shells.

SWW, I think that your conversation with her was normal because you haven't been in a firm Plan A or started a firm Plan B. These are the logical kind of conversations that we have when we are trying to fix things or logically make sense of something. No 2X4, it just is what it is.

You need the Plan B for you. She is not going to give you more than she already has. Not a stitch more, because she probably doesn't know how and may never learn how.

It's self survival at this point and being a whole person so that you can be there for your children and show them a better example.

I'm so sorry that you are in prolonged agony. I know this is hard on you.
Reading that lengthy post just brought back images of identical conversations I had with my WW months ago.

One point I always think back on...YES, not only did I want her to beg for forgiveness (on her knees if necessary)m but I also DESERVED that she do that.

SWW, don't let her justify her sins by pointing out your shortcomings. We all fall short in many areas, but you did NOT cause the divide in your marriage. You did NOT step outside the morals of your vows. You did NOT do ANY of this!

Plan B will be your best friend. The time removed from the drama will clear your thoughts. Who knows, it COULD cause WW to see how serious you are about doing things right; but, most of all, it will be for you and your own sanity.

I know you don't mean to imply you are waiting on a visible "sign" from God as to what to do...but, realize that sometimes the doors God opens are really escape hatches. Mine sure was, you just have to have a clear mind (Plan B) to recognize it!

God Bless, still praying for you!
Originally Posted by abandonedwith3
Reading that lengthy post just brought back images of identical conversations I had with my WW months ago.

One point I always think back on...YES, not only did I want her to beg for forgiveness (on her knees if necessary)m but I also DESERVED that she do that.

SWW, don't let her justify her sins by pointing out your shortcomings. We all fall short in many areas, but you did NOT cause the divide in your marriage. You did NOT step outside the morals of your vows. You did NOT do ANY of this!

Plan B will be your best friend. The time removed from the drama will clear your thoughts. Who knows, it COULD cause WW to see how serious you are about doing things right; but, most of all, it will be for you and your own sanity.

I know you don't mean to imply you are waiting on a visible "sign" from God as to what to do...but, realize that sometimes the doors God opens are really escape hatches. Mine sure was, you just have to have a clear mind (Plan B) to recognize it!

God Bless, still praying for you!


You are all so right! I really started thinking last night, and I apologize to all about my flailing back and forth. To now objective people it must be frustrating since you all have been thru this and have the knowledge I don't yet.

I am and have been willing for a long time to be treated like a piece of crap, largely due to my desire for something that I can't control.

What kind of whimp begs his wife for validation after she cheats with a friend and is willing to accept a non-committal "well, we'll see, I'm not sure right now, but YOU keep trying to win me back."

I am going to write a Plan B letter that basically says, if/when you want to get serious about talking/working on our M then we can talk. In the meantime I will call the kids directly and don't wish to speak or correspond in any way with you, and while not setting a timeframe imply that this won't be forever.

All of a sudden the job front back home is really opening. I have an interview Monday. Apparently my clearance and experience are worth a ton of $. God is so good!

I can see now how He has sheltered and protected me thru this whole thing. Maybe God doesn't believe in "marriage at all costs" either.
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/16/08 02:30 PM
I agree, quit talking yourself out of plan B. When you waiver again, replay the wimp pep rally "Not in public of course", I'd hate to see you lose your clearance grin

Congrat's on the job obtions. What's that status on your orders?

Once your hired, I'll send you my resume. cool
Originally Posted by Justkeeptrying
I agree, quit talking yourself out of plan B. When you waiver again, replay the wimp pep rally "Not in public of course", I'd hate to see you lose your clearance grin

Congrat's on the job obtions. What's that status on your orders?

Once your hired, I'll send you my resume. cool

I take over unit in November, but can cut my orders short. The Agency knows I am looking for full time civilian employment again and seem happy to have me for as long as they can. I would never leave them in the lurch though and would have to negotitate for 4-6 weeks for turnover, caretaking etc.

I will let you know if i get hired where to send your resume as i aint going anywhere. Do you still have a clearance?

I will keep hanging around here. This place is kind of like church in a way. When we come staggering in in pieces and are offered help, advice, sanity etc. I think we have an obligation to try to help others thru their confusion anxiety and pain. I won't be the best to do that as I am still working thru my issues, but I have a day or two longer in the barrel than the poor new folks who can barely breathe...
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/16/08 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
I will let you know if i get hired where to send your resume as i aint going anywhere. Do you still have a clearance?

Yep, speaking of which, I should be in the 5 YEAR window for a periodic.
Yep, speaking of which, I should be in the 5 YEAR window for a periodic.

Get it done while "daddy DOD" is paying...
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/16/08 11:13 PM
SWW,
You don't have to apologize for waivering. You have been through something that has been compared to death, the loss of a child, rape...

Just remember that as she withholds her love, affection, attention, SF, etc. from you, she continues to rape and murder your emotions.

The whole reason for having this support group is to be safe in your ups and downs and to have others to lean on when it's good and when it's bad.

Stay the course...
Posted By: IHadEnough Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/17/08 02:49 PM
I have read a lot of your thread but may have missed some details but isn't Plan B exactly what your wife would want?

I mean she just wants your money and she wants sex with other men and if you go to Plan B do you plan on cutting her off financially? In her mind Plan B means you are abandoning her.

For your entire marriage and even before you were married she has had the same behavior. You have described situation when dating where she was sleeping with other guys and she has never changed.

Why shouldn't she treat you the way she does? She has been able to do so without any consequences. If you go to Plan B can she screw as many guys as she wants until you tell her that you have had enough? Now when you tell her that and say you are going to file then she may say I want you and you will say "Great"! We both know you would so I guess my question is why should she care about your Plan B?

You have a need to have a "Hot" wife at any cost. I had a hot wife also but it was not at any cost. I have 2 friends that had the same problem.

1 friend was told his wife was cheating. He finally had enough when his neighbor called and let him know 2 of his neighbors were doing his wife (he was also but did not tell him that). He was a good decent guy like you but she needed other men to make her life worth living (just like your wife).

I have a dear friend who is not married who I am trying to break up from his girlfriend. He goes thru verbal and physical abuse with her. She was married before for 6 months when her husband left and she was 37 at the time. The guy left because she is a psyco... I am not going into all details but I have seen first hand what she is like. But my buddy is thinking of moving in with her. Why...because she is HOT. I fear for his safety. I could see setting him up for an abuse charge or killing him since she calls him and tells him she is going to kill herself.

But despite all of that...She is HOT, so it does not matter.

It just seems to me that your wife has done this her whole life. She knows she can do whatever she wants and she can at anytime get you back.

It seems to me you have a choice to make. Just accept that she is like this and let her sleep with other men and make sure she has enough money to keep her lifestyle. Maybe she will throw you some crumbs but at least you will have a "HOT" wife.

You two have the same pattern for years. You do something that she feels is abandonment so she gets to sleep with other men. And after she goes with these other guys she gets to come back with you and you are just thankful that she is still with you.

I was you for a lot of years. The day I told her enough I am out of here was the day she changed but it was too late. My biggest fault is not standing up for myself and letting her do what she did without consequences. My XW is very sorry for what she did now.

If you think going to Plan B will work then go ahead. But since she has been able to discard you whenever she feels like it and get you back whenever she feels like it I am sure she will have no problem with it. Now the day you stand up and expect she will either be a good wife or an ex-wife is the day you will make progress. Either way I wish you well. I know you don't deserve such treatment.
IHadEnough,

WOW! You read me like a book. I was just composing my plan B letter and was having trouble so I was going to post here and ask the vets for some help.

Plan B I don't think will do any good either. Plan B is for my emotional protection right? To keep any feelings of love I still have, AND, it has to be strictly adhered to.

My WW has my children at our home. She drives carpool. She has no job or money. How can I completely cut off communication? I understand the intermediary when finances are involved, but what about when I go home on weekends and want to see the kids? What's to stop her from telling my intermediary "no." Nothing. She would still have all the control and would prob be happier being able to complain to her group of friends even more and justifying screwing around more because I am such a jerk.

No, I think I need to take the weekend and really decide if Plan D is not the best option.

I really struggle with trying to reconcile God's commandment to bear all burdens until we can bear no more, and when is that? I feel a calling to show her love and compassion and try to show her the path to Him, but I am getting nothing in return, and then I ask myself "is that what it's all about, what "I" want?"

Seems every time I am ready to pull the trigger I'll hear a sermon on the radio station I listen to in the mornings, like this morning, and the topic will be on Forgiveness, or Love Never Fails, or about Bearing Burdens as Christ did, or What Would Jesus Do or something like that and I start feeling guilty, like I haven't given it my all.

I hope Ab3 takes a look at this today. Thanks for your thoughts.

SWW
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/17/08 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Yep, speaking of which, I should be in the 5 YEAR window for a periodic.

Get it done while "daddy DOD" is paying...

I've been retired 5 years, but Daddy's still DOD.
I still work N3.

Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/17/08 05:57 PM
SWW,

I think most of us want you to go to Plan D, but with your teetering back and forth, Plan B seemed like a step that would "protect" YOU and help you get your head clear.

I totally agree with IHE and I don't believe she will ever change.

As for forgiveness....my 2 cents. We are required to Forgive, but we do not have to tolerate sin.

Here's a few quotes that I like:

Quote
Your gracious tolerance for an individual does not grant him or her license to do wrong, nor does your tolerance obligate you to tolerate his or her misdeed.

Quote
We need not be tolerant of sin, but we must become tolerant and forgiving of the sinner.


Don't feel guilty that you are taking a stand for your life. People who are abused tend to blame themselves. You have been in an abusive marriage for so long, it is all that you know.

If you think you are strong enough to go straight to Plan D, then put those steps in motion.
Originally Posted by Justkeeptrying
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Yep, speaking of which, I should be in the 5 YEAR window for a periodic.

Get it done while "daddy DOD" is paying...

I've been retired 5 years, but Daddy's still DOD.
I still work N3.

Too Funny,

Small World. My Big Boss is N2. Stick close to Daddy in these troubling economic times if u can.
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/17/08 06:06 PM
Plan D might be the best option, but Plan B would just be the last ditch effort before filing. It would also give you time to solidify matters in your mind, if you still have doubt, and I sense you do.

I'd say 60-90 days of Plan B. See how it goes. If it's not effective, you;ve got your answer. If it is effective, you got much work to do. If you still have it in you.

How are you going to plan visits (see the kids, not the W) while on Plan B? Other family in the area, etc.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/17/08 06:37 PM
You stayed in plan A six months longer than you should of.

Now you want to skip plan B. You get good advice here. Advice that works but you let yourself logic it away so you can keep on doing what you want to do.

Your way has not worked. You let yourself think that you have done it the MB way.

Now you come up with reasons to not do a plan B.

"My WW has my children at our home. She drives carpool."

Day care, get your mom to help, you do not have to do a car pool.

"She has no job or money"

This is her problem. Let WW see how her OM fail to step up and financially support her.

"How can I completely cut off communication?"

DUH!!!

Even if you do not have caller ID, the answering machine with the volume down you will not hear her message. When you check the machine soon as you hear her voice hit delete.
Cell phones show number so you don't pick up.

Delete her emails without reading them. I never have IM'd but I know you can block them.

"I understand the intermediary when finances are involved, but what about when I go home on weekends and want to see the kids?"

Have your WW drop them off at your parents house. Or your siblings house. Unless there is a medical emergency there is no need for direct contact. Custody problems see a lawyer.

"What's to stop her from telling my intermediary "no." Nothing."

She doesn't have to talk to your third party. That is the beauty of plan B. WW will then be left in the dark. This makes the WW start to realize that she won't be able to keep stringing you along. She will have to realize that if you are meeting most of her needs then she will have the most to lose if she does not dump the OM.

"She would still have all the control and would prob be happier being able to complain to her group of friends even more and justifying screwing around more because I am such a jerk."

Your WW is banging the OM and you are worrying that she will be bad mouthing you to her friends. Your unbelievable.
TheRoad,

No, I am not making myself clear I guess. If there were no children or the children were with me I can easily envision a plan B.

With me in DC travelling home on weekends how do I maintain NC and still arrange to see the kids?

On the finances, sure I could cut her off, but as she has the kids at home I can't cut them off too. She is the one that goes to the grocery store. My mother died in January, my dad lives in Idaho and my sister lives 2.5 hours away.

On the talking to her friends, I couldn't give a rats behind about that. I was saying that to agree that Plan B would be great for her as it would make her more a martyr and center of attention.

No, I would like to do a plan B, I just don't know under the circumstances how that would work. I tried to write the letter this AM but got bogged down in the details of how it would work.

I am not trying to whine here, make excuses, or give up too soon, it's just that logistically I can't see how it would work unless I decided to plan B for a couple of months which would prob include not seeing my kids as well.

I am not afraid of offending her either and I have no idea if she is banging OM charlie or not.

Under these circumstances I would welcome any ideas about how to make a Plan B work. I was leaning at D because I couldn't envision how to make it effective as if I communicate with her about seeing the kids when i am home it won't work.
Posted By: MogiSola Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/17/08 07:51 PM
Just brainstorming for what it's worth...

If you are divorced and it's nasty...how would you orchestrate seeing the kids? You might use a friend as a go-between, right? So could you do that for when you are home on the weekends?

Or could you set up in the letter that you would like to see the kids every other weekend (share custody) and have her drop them off at a mutual friend's house?

Could the kids come live with you? OR You have a possible job in your hometown, when that happens, could you share custody on a weekly basis?

Financially...you could send gift cards for the grocery store as an allowance. You could make sure the bills at the house are paid for (just like you would if you paid alimony). OR If you decide on a monthly amount that you are willing to give her in support of the children and she doesn't feel its enough, you can offer to take the kids for her and have them live with you.

Could you hire a mediator? A lawyer as a go-between? Could you make it a legal separation and still consider it a Plan B? With a legal separation you might be able to make the custody things work better.

Just some ideas...sometimes I come up with things best when I write out all of the options, no matter how out there they seem to be. Maybe someone here will see something that might work and can piggyback on it.

I will pray for strength and clarity for you!
MogiSola
MogiSola,

I suppose I could:

1. inform her I will put money in her acct every 2 weeks. If more neded to email my friend.

2. Tell her my schedule and ask that she leave the kids at a friends. If she refuses to do this though I don't know what I would do. I would anticipate her using the kids as a weapon.

3. I have a job interview monday, if it comes thru, I would get my own place.

I guess it's the kids thing that is the real sticking point. They are in the middle of a tough time as it is and I don't want to uproot them from school/friends this far into the school year. If WW uses them as a weapon and won't agree to give them to me on the weekends without a fight I guess I would have to explain to them what's going on which they would then tell WW what I am doing.

The last thing in the world I want to do is go into a plan b and then have to cave.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/17/08 08:29 PM
Have you tried getting advice from the Harley's?
I think you should ask them how in your situation you could do a plan B.

I think after contacting Harley's then you may have to get a lawyer and do a legal separation to get a plan B in place.

It's still best to do a plan B before you move to do a plan D.

Not every marriage can be saved, should be saved. I don't think you should call it quits without moving mountains for your kids to get a plan B up and running.

Lawyer orchestrated plan B separation will put in place many things that would have to be done for a divorce any way. You are not looking to get married, no rush, or working to a deadline. Use all of the tools that you can.
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Have you tried getting advice from the Harley's?
I think you should ask them how in your situation you could do a plan B.

I think after contacting Harley's then you may have to get a lawyer and do a legal separation to get a plan B in place.

It's still best to do a plan B before you move to do a plan D.

Not every marriage can be saved, should be saved. I don't think you should call it quits without moving mountains for your kids to get a plan B up and running.

Lawyer orchestrated plan B separation will put in place many things that would have to be done for a divorce any way. You are not looking to get married, no rush, or working to a deadline. Use all of the tools that you can.

Ok on Harley's, good idea. How's this for a start? Anyone?

E,

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with Charlie possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most. We are now both suffering for my mistakes. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I made in the past, I have asked for your forgiveness for them, and I want to create a new life for the both of us. But I cannot do that alone with you refusing to even broach the subject of our future together and what it would look like.

Until then, I need to avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will deposit money in your account every 2 weeks for you and the children and if more is needed please email “friend.” I will call the kids directly on their cell phones. When I come home to visit I will find my own place to stay and only then will I email or text you to ask you to drop the kids off where I ask. I cannot control the situation should you decide to use them as a weapon by denying me visitation, but it will hasten what may be the inevitable if you do.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I endured because of your relationship with Charlie, and your making me feel as though I need to compete with others for affection and love, including intimate love. Because of all the deception I simply cannot trust you at all at this time that you are not still seeing him, especially as you seem to be unwilling to discuss any efforts on your part at reconciliation.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Charlie and any situations that might put you two in contact and are willing to make a commitment to our family and our relationship I will be willing to discuss our future together. If you cannot, then that will tell me what is most important and least important to you.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married, and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are unwilling to participate in our marriage.

With All My Love,

SWW
Posted By: IHadEnough Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/17/08 09:21 PM
I will let others comment on your Plan B because I think it is a huge mistake on your part with the type of woman you have. Her whole life has been to treat you this way so she will be glad to have you gone and get your money. Big mistake but it is your life and you have to live it so I wish you the best.

I will comment on your letter. When I read it the first thing I got out of it is that it was you who caused the affair and now you are sorry. She will think that she is justified and now just like always you are crawling back on your knees. No worry for her it is just like always.

Your wife has the mindset that she is always entitled to sleep with other guys if she is upset at you. In your letter you are admitting this as far as I can tell.

I am sorry but I feel sorry for you. You remind me of my dear friend who is with a real nightmare. I wish you would go get some help and find out why you have put up with this and why you want to keep sending her money and letting her sleep with other guys.

It is kind of ironic when you think about it. Your wife won't have SF with you and she cheats on you but she won't appologize for it. You on the other hand have been faithful and have supported her financially and funded her cheating and you are the one who is appologizing.

You have a unhealthy need for an attractive spouse. I am sorry I sound angry with you. I just hate it when guys put up with this crap. I have had my say and i will bow out of your thread. Good luck because like I said you are far to nice a guy and you don't deserve this.

Originally Posted by IHadEnough
I will let others comment on your Plan B because I think it is a huge mistake on your part with the type of woman you have. Her whole life has been to treat you this way so she will be glad to have you gone and get your money. Big mistake but it is your life and you have to live it so I wish you the best.

I will comment on your letter. When I read it the first thing I got out of it is that it was you who caused the affair and now you are sorry. She will think that she is justified and now just like always you are crawling back on your knees. No worry for her it is just like always.

Your wife has the mindset that she is always entitled to sleep with other guys if she is upset at you. In your letter you are admitting this as far as I can tell.

I am sorry but I feel sorry for you. You remind me of my dear friend who is with a real nightmare. I wish you would go get some help and find out why you have put up with this and why you want to keep sending her money and letting her sleep with other guys.

It is kind of ironic when you think about it. Your wife won't have SF with you and she cheats on you but she won't appologize for it. You on the other hand have been faithful and have supported her financially and funded her cheating and you are the one who is appologizing.

You have a unhealthy need for an attractive spouse. I am sorry I sound angry with you. I just hate it when guys put up with this crap. I have had my say and i will bow out of your thread. Good luck because like I said you are far to nice a guy and you don't deserve this.

Yeah, you are right. If she won't respond to D papers there never was any hope anyway actually. She would laugh at a plan B and think it and I are pathetic.

I guess part of this is I am afraid of being alone. I know, which is better? Alone or with someone who treats me like a dog, occasionally throwing me a treat and then carrying on with OM.

It's tough. Should be easy right?
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/18/08 08:39 PM
Maybe you are telling yourself that it is better to live with, and financially support, a "hot appearing" partying, spending, cheating woman than to have to divorce since then you risk meeting a "non hot" woman in the future.

Maybe you tell yourself it is better to live with this cheater, financially supporting her, her partying, and her cheating, rather than having to go out and date again some day.

Are you that afraid of dating and meeting other women??? That you would stay with that (severe expletive) ?????

I do not understand why you do not get an attorney, get a good plan, then serve her the divorce papers.

She is superslime. A discredit to women everywhere.

Plus, SHE DOES NOT LOVE YOU, MAN!!! SHE WANTS YOUR MONEY SO SHE WONT HAVE TO WORK. THAT IS IT. THEN SHE CAN CHEAT AND PARTY ALL SHE WANTS AND YOU WILL PAY FOR ALL OF THAT!!!!

(She cant cheat and party with no money and will have no energy to do so if she has to work full itme)
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/20/08 06:29 AM
Here is where I actually mentioned divorce.
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/20/08 03:13 PM
You aleady have a good idea what your WW's response is going to be to plan B... Honesty what's it going to hurt?

60-90 days of plan B. Begin planning your life without her now if you like, but again whats it going to hurt.

Your letter. Cut it down to communications, money, and a list of your marriage requirements. Counseling, no communication w/OM, radical honesty, etc..

You've played nice, you've apologized for your role in marital failure.

No more.
SWW, Sorry I wasn't available for you when you mentioned me last week. I no longer work from home so my time here is more limited.

It sounds to me like you're struggling with the same spiritual question I did for a while.

How can we possibly FORGIVE our WW's after all they've done to us??? After all, we are to love our enemies, right?

Here's how I reasoned it...I HAVE forgiven my WW for her transgressions. However, that does not mean I will ever go back to her dramatics again! I choose not to associate with her in any way.

I would never befriend a person of such low moral standards, and she doesn't get a pass just because we were once a couple.

If her life truly ever turned around and she bore the fruit of repentence, I would certainly consider allowing her to become a part of my life again as a FRIEND...if for no other reason than the fact we have kids together. However, I know this woman as you know your WW...it is HIGHLY unlikely she is capable of living a consistent moral life (by consistent, I mean YEARS of the straight and narrow).

Just another reason why a quick Plan B might benefit you. Heck, my Plan B was only for a few weeks I think. That's all it took for me to see reality.

If you choose not to Plan B, I certainly understand, I just don't want to see you have any regrets later.

All of the advise you're getting is sound...use it all as you see fit (including mine!).
Well MB,

I did it finally. I am sorry but under the current circumstances I am convinced plan b would only have made matters worse, for me.

I was finally able to release my self from 2 critical aspects of my relationship with my WW.

1. My dependence on her for my own self-worth.

2. My guilt, anticipated and otherwise for "leaving her."

I spoke to a D atty yesterday and emailed and asked her to please do the same. I feel very free and empowered.

She will either comply and call and we'll get the ball rolling or she will do what ab3's WW did, writhe and beg and act confused and angry.

I can already anticpipate her words and actions should she do the latter, "why am I always the bad guy? Why are you doing this? I thought we were working on things? Just because I can't see SF with you now didn't mean forever? You are such a jerk. What are you going to tell the kids? Why do I have to be the one to change? OK, I'll change, what do you want me to do? etc. etc."

Truth is I don't think she can change her character or the critical aspects of her personality on a dime, but the onus is on her. I will not propose any solutions, it's up to her now. Like Stella said, she doesn't love me and needs more than one man in her life.

I was really angry to begin with this week. Now I just wonder why, when she peeled out of the church parking lot 5 years ago to go to the Super Bowl without me I didn't see it then.
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/22/08 03:02 PM
You've got more than enough justification for filing. It was just a matter of what YOU wanted.

Keep us posted.
Originally Posted by Justkeeptrying
You've got more than enough justification for filing. It was just a matter of what YOU wanted.

Keep us posted.

Thanks JKT,

I will keep y'all posted. WW still hasn't responded to email other than trying to call yesterday.

BTW, had the job interview Monday. Still don't know anything, but they didn't blink when I mentioned matching O-6 pay with BAH tax bennies. So, I'll let you know. Prob means a trip to the sandbox for 3-4 months, but, hey, we all knew that coming into this didn't we?
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/22/08 04:48 PM

SWW,

Congratulations on making progress.

I hope you stay on course and find the peace that you deserve.
Posted By: MogiSola Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/22/08 06:18 PM
You're Navy right? Can't you stay out on the boat and away from the sand? My hubby managed four years on a boat without much time in the sandbox at all.

Then again, it would certainly be a distraction from your troubles here, eh? wink

MS
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/22/08 07:06 PM
I know you've been in business for yourself already, but if you haven't worked for corporate keep in mind, everything is negotiable.

Contractors who make frequent trips to the sand box typically get compensated very well while oversea's. Often to the tune of double salary, per diem, additional time off, etc.

If your job description is a roughly lateral position compared to your current responsiblities. You salary request is a great deal (for the company).

Expecting you will not go back and asking for more. Consider stock options regardless of publically or privately owned on an annual basis. Ask about bonuses, paided time off, etc.

I recently began dumping any bonus monies directly into my 401K in order to avoid the heavy taxes that came with it.

Considering you are filing for D, any income that is not showing up on your statement (LES) is a good thing.

"ANY" issues you have medically, get it documented in your record. I was a bit proud, had no desire to receive a disability percentage. Wow was I stupid! I threw away potentially receiving 50% of my pension tax free! If I would have documented legitimate claims, but at the time I view it as money I didn't need, someone else needs this more than me, etc.

Be sure to visit a DAV rep before you retire. They are very helpful.
Well,

I spoke to WW last night after she tried to avoid talking to me for awhile and then finally when I got her on the phone she spent an inordinate amount of energy talking about happy things going on.

It took a lot of inner strength to bring the conversation around to the reason for my call, to get her to face the reality of calling the D atty.

It was one of the most painful things I have ever done. We were very nice to each other, but, she sounded like she was in shock.

She sounded resigned to the fact that she had created this mess and would now have to face the music. I did not lead her down this line of thinking or steer the conversation that way, she did, and she sounded, well, just resigned to our fate. I asked her to please call the lawyer this morning. She said she would and that then she would call me this morning.

I don't know if any of you had this happen, but i lay up all night and had to fight the urge to call her or text her that I still cared and loved her. I feel so bad for her...

She did not call the atty and has not called me today.

She plays and talks a tough game because I think she never thought I would have the spine to do it.

Gosh I am depressed....

SWW
Posted By: myopia Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/24/08 10:38 AM
CHEER UP

You have been going round in circles for long enough. Time to get off the merry-go-round and feel like you are making progress to improve your situation, one step at a time!

The last one was a huge step in the right direction .

WELL DONE
Originally Posted by myopia
CHEER UP

You have been going round in circles for long enough. Time to get off the merry-go-round and feel like you are making progress to improve your situation, one step at a time!

The last one was a huge step in the right direction .

WELL DONE

Thank You!

I need a little encouragement. My sister had to laugh when I told her I spent yesterday morning dissecting I Corinthians 7 where Paul talks about marriage trying to be sure I was doing the right thing.

I know this site is about marriage building not divorce. I hold out a tiny shred of hope my WW will "see the light" but, she would have to move mountains at this point and trusting that she was sincere would be hard.

She is not speaking to me by phone, text or email now. Maybe she is lawyering up too, who knows. My atty told me that while my state is a no fault state, that infidelity often comes into play in determining alimony.

I feel bad for my WW. I think this is a wake up call she never expected. Her parents have been separated for 10 years but are still married and live in the same town and he supports her. I think she thought this might be our arrangement. Who knows?
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/24/08 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
She is not speaking to me by phone, text or email now.

I suspect she's going through an "Oh crap! The gig is up!" moment and her little fantasy-world is in a bit of turmoil now. Don't you even think about throwing her any life-lines now, Ok?

Just make sure all your bases are covered - she's likely to get quite nasty, now that you've shown her that you're not a pushover and she's no longer going to get what she wants from you.
Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
She is not speaking to me by phone, text or email now.

I suspect she's going through an "Oh crap! The gig is up!" moment and her little fantasy-world is in a bit of turmoil now. Don't you even think about throwing her any life-lines now, Ok?

Just make sure all your bases are covered - she's likely to get quite nasty, now that you've shown her that you're not a pushover and she's no longer going to get what she wants from you.

MIM,

I have resisted throwing her any life lines for 2 nights now. The first night was hard, last night was much easier. Only communication from me was asking if she had called D atty as I had not heard from her.

I expect either teary phone calls from her, her friends and family, or downright nastiness. I am not sure which and I guess at this point it doesn't really matter. If it does get nasty quick that will only be more confirmation for me where her head and heart are.

Funny, as I was waffling a few days ago before making the decision more text messages came up from the past when she still had the phone I now use.

One to him was: "It is because I am so hor*y that I am such a great catch. And for so many other reasons as well..."

Another presumably after he broke it off with her for his former GF: "I don't understand. Why do guys always leave?"

These, especially the first, made the decision a bit easier. She was abducted completely by the aliens and is still floating around confused in outer space.
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/29/08 03:03 PM
You've got your fuel to call on if you need anger (the texts).

Have you thought out a response if she pleads to remain M? It may happen. You need to know what you will say and require of her.
Originally Posted by Justkeeptrying
You've got your fuel to call on if you need anger (the texts).

Have you thought out a response if she pleads to remain M? It may happen. You need to know what you will say and require of her.

JKT,

I am having an AB3 moment here. WW is calling and texting and emailing and is being super sweet. Telling me funny stories about the kids etc.

She just called me to tell me, "Hey, remember today was your Mother's (died in January) Birthday. I think you should call your Dad."

As to what to say if she wants to stay M, I don't know. I sorta feel like she should know what she has to do, but to be honest I haven't laid it out for her. I don't really think I should right now.

She is trying to slyly get me to "forget" i asked for D by being super sweet, staying home at night with the kids, looking forward to me coming home etc.

I am going to be nice as I have been, but still bug her about calling D atty. I think I will get after awhile, "SWW, why should we D when we are getting along so well?"

Me andticipated response: "Because I don't want to just be your friend. I offered you every opportunity to reconcile and come back and you refused, so it's time to move on."

I guess....
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/29/08 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Me andticipated response: "Because I don't want to just be your friend. I offered you every opportunity to reconcile and come back and you refused, so it's time to move on."

I guess....

I wouldn't give her an opportunity to debate your feelings.

How about "..because I can no longer accept a future where I remain M'd to you."

Posted By: MogiSola Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/30/08 03:45 PM
Be careful about listening to your WW right now. I had an abusive boyfriend and he was able to win me back with words many times. I eventually had to withdraw completely to separate from him.

I guess what I'm thinking is, you really WANT your M to work. You WANT your WW to be this great person you thought you married. You WANT all the pain and crap to disappear and be able to go back to a good place in your M. She is trying to create that illusion. And because you probably really WANT to believe that it could happen, I think you are more susceptible to allowing yourself to believe that there is hope.

I am making a huge assumption about the level of hurt and anger you have. I think at this point you need to hold on to that anger, and maybe even protect yourself from the fantasy that your WW is trying to create with her communications. I guess I'm just saying, "Be careful." Don't let YOUR addiction for her and for your M get the best of you.

MS
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/30/08 04:44 PM
Do not let her calm you.

Take away her cake.

Do not respond to her communications. Now would be a great time to send a plan B letter. Short and sweet, let her know it's time to communicate with a lawyer, not you.

She sends something cute, you reply with "Thanks, can you look for a good real estate agent to get an estimate on the house value".

Do not go to your home when you return.

Do not make any demands of her.

If she doesn't proactively take steps needed to prove to you she wants to truly remain M, it's just another smoke screen.
...just catchin' up. An "AB3 moment," huh, that's hilarious. Good one SWW.

I know what you mean. As my D hearing draws closer (18 days), I'm being bombarded with the sweet, R texts and emails. I just ignore them!

Like you, I gave my WW EVERY opportunity to do the right thing, before it was too late.

She initiated and choose this path...not you! Always remember that!

Still praying...


..."An AB3 moment"...LOL.....too cool!!!! I have a "moment" named after me!
Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 10/31/08 04:36 PM
SWW,

See the Plan B has a purpose and some of it is to keep you from being on that roller coaster ride with her. She knows how to manipulate you, calm you, get you to really like the way things are again so she can brush them under the carpet.

I feel bad that you settle for so less than what you deserve. I hope that she doesn't con you right back into staying in this mess.

It should not matter whether she calls the D atty or not, you should be moving forward with your choice of D at all costs. She can catch up either with her own atty or signing your papers at the finish line.

Be strong SWW....
Originally Posted by onlyUcan
SWW,

See the Plan B has a purpose and some of it is to keep you from being on that roller coaster ride with her. She knows how to manipulate you, calm you, get you to really like the way things are again so she can brush them under the carpet.

I feel bad that you settle for so less than what you deserve. I hope that she doesn't con you right back into staying in this mess.

It should not matter whether she calls the D atty or not, you should be moving forward with your choice of D at all costs. She can catch up either with her own atty or signing your papers at the finish line.

Be strong SWW....

Yep, it's been 2 weeks and she still hasn't called D atty. I got this from her today:

Me: Hi,

I kinda get the feeling you are dragging your feet on calling D Atty. Where are you on that?

WW: I have nothing to tell him. We have to put pen to paper first. You can file anytime you please, but I have a feeling we will have sticky issues on some things.

Me: Like what?

WW: We can talk about it this weekend. I had been advised not to put things in print, just in case.

Looks like things might get ugly after all. I am really confused but pressing ahead. WW is very nice to me, nicer than ever in fact, wants to talk about the holidays together etc. and then when I gently remind her of D atty she shuts down or gets nasty like she can't believe I keep bringing it up.

Oh well, gotta press. I guess she wants an occasional houseguest that pays all the bills so she can avoid getting a job and still hang out with her toxic friends. It's such a shame she never saw the "lighthouse" I offered for so long. Like Stella said, "SHE DOESN'T LOVE YOU MAN!"

Posted By: TheRoad Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 11/04/08 09:49 PM
"I am really confused but pressing ahead. WW is very nice to me, nicer than ever in fact, wants to talk about the holidays together etc. and then when I gently remind her of D atty she shuts down"

Confused, Why?

WW does not want to divorce. She is happy being a cake eater.
Throwing you appeasment bones to keep you on a string.
WW is not ready to divorce you, or is willing to let you file so she can say it was your fault, or does not want to pay for divorce.

Time to plan B so WW get's put on a cake free diet. Cut off finacial aid. Let OM face the challenge of meeting all of her needs.

Nothing to gain by not going to plan B.
Posted By: imagine Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 11/05/08 04:11 AM
Why would you engage in discussion with WW about getting an atty?

This seems like mixed signals to me. You tell her that you want a D but that you don't want her to be shafted in the D. This strikes me as ... leaving food out. What's with talking with her? Are you done or not? You are merely prolonging your own agony.

Further, I think that by continuing waving D under her nose is a form of control. Don't do it. Shut up, shut down.

Plan B.
Posted By: MogiSola Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 11/05/08 05:50 PM
Well said, imagine.

I think you need to go dark. Send the Plan B letter and then stop all communication.

At the very least, if you find that you HAVE to talk with her, become a broken record..."I love you. I want our M to work. When you are ready to meet the requirements I explained in the letter, I am happy to talk. Until then, please contact so and so if you need something." *click*

You are using the D as an idle threat and it is undermining your strength. It's like telling your kid that you're going to send them to their room if they don't stop a behavior and then when they try to sweet talk you, you say...come on, aren't you going to go to your room?...but not forcing the issue and taking them there. Every time you say something and then don't follow through you are teaching WW that you don't mean what you say.

If you're not completely ready for D, then do Plan B. But DO IT. Don't just tell her you are going to do it and then kind of do it. Be strong. You wouldn't let your kids walk all over you like this, would you? Why are you letting her?

MS
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 11/05/08 06:04 PM
Everyone let's start the plan B chant.
Posted By: MogiSola Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 11/05/08 06:08 PM
Plan B, dude...Plan B.
SWW, They are all correct! This is why we've been preaching Plan B to you for weeks now!

You're allowing yourself to be lead by emotions...you really have (need) to stop it!

Follow the advise you are getting here. We know you agree, you just haven't managed to do it yet.

PLAN B...PLAN B...PLAN B...PLAN B!
PLAN B ANYONE?
Posted By: MogiSola Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 11/05/08 08:13 PM
dance2 Plan B, Plan B, Plan B B B... dance2
dance2 Plan B, Plan B, Plan B B B... dance2
dance2 Plan B, Plan B, Plan B B B... dance2
dance2 Plan Beeeeeee, Plan B B B! dance2

MS - This is a great song!


Posted By: onlyUcan Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 11/05/08 09:21 PM
SWW,

She has no consequences and no motivation to make any changes, especially contacting the D atty.

You probably should seek help for your own emotional strength because I don't see that you are going to make any progress.

We've talked to you long enough through this that we can see your patterns now. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it stands for all of us. We all have patterns of how we cope.

Get some IC with the Harleys so you can get strong and move forward. You have proven that you cannot do it alone.

Good luck my friend.
Originally Posted by MogiSola
dance2 Plan B, Plan B, Plan B B B... dance2
dance2 Plan B, Plan B, Plan B B B... dance2
dance2 Plan B, Plan B, Plan B B B... dance2
dance2 Plan Beeeeeee, Plan B B B! dance2

MS - This is a great song!

Yep,

let me dig it up for y'all to see if you don't mind.

SWW
How goes it SWW???

Just thought about you today and was wondering...
Posted By: ComingAbout Re: Not knowing is physically killing me - 11/20/08 06:02 PM
SWW, You dropped of the face...

How about a note letting us know your alive and kicking.
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