Like just about any BS, especially BHs, I considered a RA for awhile. Not so much to boost my self-esteem, but because I was curious. I had resisted the usual temptations in the past, but I began to wonder "what if"?

1) What was so great about a friends-with-benefits PA (my W's situation) that it was worth everything?

2) What would it be like to have no-strings-attached sex with someone I barely know...or someone I do know for that matter?

3) Didn't I deserve to experience that thrill myself, since I was suffering mightily from my W getting hers?

As time passed, I answered my own questions.

1)and 2) - It would be a blast...completely exhilarating. Two people who aren't supposed to be doing what they're doing...being wanted so badly by another married woman that she's willing to put it all on the line for sex with me...yeah, that would be quite a rush that my W could never give me.


3) H_ll yes I deserved that thrill, and I still think so to this day. If my wife, whom I've been faithful to for our entire relationship, can go out and experience that one-of-a-kind rush, then I am entitled (yes, I said ENTITLED) to experience that too, at least once in my life. She gave me a "Get Some For Free Card" on d-day, like it or not.


I could've easily cashed it in more than once. Why haven't I? Because after MUCH contemplation, I decided this:

**EDIT**

I know I could do it if I wanted to. I've done so much obsessive reading on infidelity, from both sides of the fence, that my odds of being busted with hard evidence would be near zero. Finding a partner is shockingly easy these days. Cheaters are everywhere. I wouldn't have to be a "player". I wouldn't have to lie to an AP.

It's been enough for me to know that I could, but choose not to.

Cheaters sicken me. They behave as though they are part of some cool clique, **EDIT**

I am NOT entitled to an RA.

Never.

I would never do that to my kids and family.

No one is ENTITLED to hurt the children THEY brought into the world.

Not even for revenge.

Although I don't believe that it was "revenge" that I had in mind...I did (in a legal sense) have an affair after d-day #2.

ONS with a woman that I met online. Don't remember her name, where she is from (I know she is from out East somewhere...I live in the West). Hell, I wouldn't recognize her if I walked by her on the street...not that there is a possibility of that happening.

W is aware...I told her the next day.

I will give you more detail after the first round of 2x4's to come my way. Then I will explain "why" I think I did it...it doesn't have anything to do with "revenge", as some may think. And, I am NOT FOGGY about any of it (I'm sure you all will go that direction after reading my reasons "why")...it's all pretty clear to me, I can assure you of that.


Commence 2x4's......

We all handle things how we handle things. We are in shock over things that are being revealed and who were then doesn't mean it's who we are now and how we would handle it again.

In the end, what we do is viewed by one, G-d and he is the one who gives you forgivness and understanding.

I don't judge anyone because you are the one who knows right from wrong and has to live with yourself and that is probably worse than whatever I could do or say.

I'm just glad my conscience was clean because it was so tempting to do.

What's more weird, is that as time goes on, that temptation becomes stronger and I get to be loyal to G-d and not go there and in the end glorify G-d with my obedience.

But it's hard I tell ya.

I didn't have a revenge affair because I have mirrors in my house. Same reason I try to walk in good conscience all my life.

This does not wreak of revenge as much as it does jealousy. I don't understand why you would want what your WW had. What she had/experienced was poisonous to your marriage.

Do you feel 'entitled' to experience every stupid thing your wife gets herself into?

Unions tend to use a phrase in their contracts referred to as a "me too" clause. This means that whatever (benefits) the other bargaining units get, we get too.

That may have it's purpose in the workplace but I can't see that logic working in a healthy marriage. Especially when the "benefit" you perceive your wife to have experienced was the addictive "rush" of an extra marital affair.

.....bump.

No 2x4's?

Why would I 2x4 you interovert?
I am at a point where a RA is jolly tempting.
Its only my kids opinion of me that stops me.

I have one handy...are you asking for it?

I will tell you that I gathered from your post that you have rationalized why you did it.

Does your rationalization even now ring true to you? Are your justifications sound?

We owe it to our children to parent up where our spouses failed.

No kid deserves this.

"No kid deserves this."

Absolutly

I agree, but no faithful spouse deserves it, either.

I'm not trying to come across as though I'm contemplating a RA. Before my post was edited, it was quite clear where I stand, and why.

Although I easily could, I'm too good for that.

ITA, but since MY spouse failed my children as well as me, it was totally up to me to make certain that they were protected.

I am an adult. Once I was informed of what was going on, I could make MY decisions accordingly.

Children do not have that say. I had to be their voice.

If I had done the same things as their father, who would've been there for them?

Not only am I better than that...my children, all of them, are worth far more to the world than that. Since I was the only one at the time to realize that, I could never have an RA.

There is no "justification"....just some "reasons" that do not include "revenge".

When I decided to do it, it was two days after d-day#2. During this time, I had decided to get on with my life (just like WW had been doing for 4 months). WW was out of the house, living at her Mother's, and I had had enough of her b@llsh!t (quite frankly). I did not do it for "revenge". In fact, WW was the furthest thing from my mind at the time. In my mind was nothing but "getting on with my life AFTER marriage"...that had nothing to do with "revenge", and everything to do with what I thought (at the time) was "self healing". Was I right in the end?....no. Did it do anything to help our recovery process?....h3ll no. Would I recommend that anyone does this?...damn h3ll no.

After the truth of what I did come out (I told W the next day) I was MORE THAN HAPPY to tell W everything that she wanted to know about it (which was very little)...I had nothing to hide. Could someone look at every BS doing this as a "revenge" affair...sure, I would have to (before mine). But, in hindsight (and I know hindsight is easy...but it's experience in this case), there are 2 reasons that I have come up with that are more in tune with how I feel and "why" I did it that have nothing to do with "revenge"...

1. As I stated earlier, this was one way for me to convince myself that there is life after the affair. I don't have many friends, not many hobbies, and WW was neck deep in her adultery (she was gone, as far as I knew, and was concerned). What do I do now? I'm 33 years old, want kids, have no wife, no friends, nothing to look forward to, and a WW that says [censored] like "I'm fighting you till the end in the divorce"....."I need to find something that makes me feel good about myself again". Although it didn't work.....I succeeded in a sense of boasting my self-esteem at a very trying time.


2. After a week or so after my ONS, I found myself almost using it as a reason to justify forgiving my WW. My very own sister asked mw how things were starting to go with W, as far as recovery goes. The first thing out of my mouth was "well, she's not the only one guilty in this situation anymore". Although this is an obvious hindsight observation on my part, I think that I may have actually (subconsciously) done this to make recovery more of an "equal" process. I found myself thinking..."I want to feel what my WW feels, I want to do what my WW does, I want the same guilt that my WW has".



Anyway, you can 2x4, pick things out of my post and call them foggy, tell me I btoke my vows so I'm no better than her...I'm expecting this. But, I do hope that you can look past the "revenge" aspect of how this all went down. I assure you that revenge was not an issue. It's a pretty easy word to throw out there when a situation that looks like "an eye for an eye...tooth for a tooth" comes about, but it wasn't like that.

Okay.

I was kidding about the 2x4.

I have one...but I prefer to use a mackerel. It make a much more satisfying "thwack/slap."

I'm just baffled that a ONS with a complete stranger BOOSTED your self esteem. It would make me feel like a cheap, low-moraled slut.

Introvert,

Your justifications are what allowed you to "go there", but the fact you were more than happy to share your A with WW an example it was partially revenge.

Long term "personally" the fall out of lowering myself would have been painful. I too had opportunity. I received new attention when those around me suspected I was soon to be available. I think depression somewhat saved my integrity.

Just my .02, No 2x4's

Because I went from having nothing to having something....pretty simple concept really. Today, I would say that I agree with your comments...at that time I wasn't "me".

Although, you are right (in hindsight) that it doesn't make me feel any better about anything, at the time...it did. That's what happens when your emotions are in turmoil...things that would normally make you feel "cheap" and "slutty" all of a sudden don't, because you aren't in the same frame of mind.

Would you say this mind set would be the BS fog?

I can accept that as a fair assessment. The fact that I was anticipating her reaction to it probably says "revenge", but that wasn't my intent for having the ONS. My intent was to use it as a starting point in my "pursuit of happiness"...without WW.

I suppose your ONS person was using you as much as you were using her...but to me, to utilize another human being like a wad of tissue...

...

...

...

Well...the thought make my stomach hurt and makes me sad all at once.

I'm sorry you had to use another person to make yourself feel whole, In.

But life, and people, are better than that.

I'd say that it would probably be a good example.

Introvert,

My H also tried to rational/justify his A by saying that our marriage was over before he did it. That is classic wayward fog babble. I understand that you see your situation as different than a classic A, but it really isn't. Your marriage wasn't over (even if you thought it was) and you had a ONS.

Early in recovery when my H said that our marriage was over before he had his A, I pointed out to him that since we are still married obviously our marriage was not over, no matter what his foggy head thought. He had a look on his face that told me he understand exactly what I was saying and he never used that excuse (or reason is that's what you want to call it) again.

As for why I did not have a revenge A. I know all too well how painful it is to be betrayed and I never wanted my H to have to think about me having sex with another man because I did not want him to view me that way.

My H's A has changed the way I look at him and even though he has become the most wonderful H since then, just knowing that he did what he did has changed forever the way I view him.

Also I feel like I have lowered my standards already by staying with someone who cheated on me. I do not want to lower them anymore by becoming a cheater.

ONS's, infidelity, orgies, etc... have been around since the birth of Christ. I commend you on your viewpoint, but it's a pretty common practice...always has been.

Well actually they were around long before that, but that doesn't make them any prettier.

What would constitute the marriage being over, then? I disagree with you on this. We can all have our own viewpoints on what exactly an end to a marriage is. Yours is more of a legal/paperwork viewpoint...my viewpoint is that as soon as WW broke her vows to remain faithful to me...marriage over. It's not up to you or anyone else to decide when/how "MY" marriage came to an end...no matter what your views are. You can make that assessment with "your" husband, but you cannot and should not push those viewpoints on me. I was a faithful husband who took vows, and stuck to them. My view has ALWAYS been that if W had an affair...marriage over. I knew it and she knew it...therefore, the fact that the 2 people involved in the union knew that the union would be over if this situation ever happened...it was over.

No offense but this sounds like Ross and rachel from freinds being "on a break'. And i actually understand where your coming from. My WH has come and gone and yeah, its bloody tempting to take up one of the offers I am getting. He's sure the marriage is over, somedays i think so to. but then there are the days when i think "what if". Those are what is stopping me, and the fact that i couldnt look my kids in the eye and say what dad's done is wrong, without feeling like a hypocrite.

I'm very disappointed in your foggy thinking. NO, you aren't the one who gets to make up a definition of marriage and when it is over.

Maybe you wife's definition was that it was over when you pi$$ed her off. Or maybe when you failed to satisfy her every whim. Or maybe if she ever found out you looked at porn. So maybe she was "free" to sleep around, since the marriage was already broken.

See where this kind of foggy thinking carries you?

So because it's COMMON practice, I should just enjoy the pap you are feeding me?

I tasted your pap.

It smelled a lot like the turds that the Wookie tried to feed me during the height of his idiocy.

You can TELL me it's chocolate flavored pap...but it's still bs to me.

And your math is flawed.

Common does NOT equal RIGHT.

It just equals common.

Blah.

I thought you were currently working on recovery? When did your marriage end?

I don't think the term "revenge affair" is meant to apply to A's entered into solely for the purpose of revenge. I think it is a term used to describe A's that occur after being a BS.


I think this statement is a "wolf" in sheep's clothing. In order to feel the same guilt that your WW does, it was neccessary for you to injure her in the way she hurt you. IMHO, replacing "I wanted her to feel the pain of betrayal" with "I wanted to feel the guilt of betraying" doesn't remove the revenge element from the act. She was injured so that you may get something you want (IMHO, whether what you wanted was her pain or your satisfaction is not really relevent) and that injury was acceptable to you because she injured you first. Sounds a lot like revenge to me.

I personally don't care for the idea that the vows I made were conditional on my spouse keeping her vows. I don't think the legal paperwork means anything in particular, nor does it matter if my wife tells me she doesn't love me anymore.

I don't know when it's over really. It certainly can't be over while I'm still in love with my wife. But even then, I can't really predict when my vows end. I guess maybe you just know when you know.

I appreciate all of the responses. I can see that there may have been some form of "revenge" in my intentions...I see that now. Let me repeat that (for those here that tend to skip things)....I see that now...thank you.

I do have to mention our phone session with Jennifer. W had hers first, then myself. W told Jennifer about my "BS affair" (I'm changing the wording). When it was my turn to speak to Jennifer, she asked me about it, I reiderated what W told her...Jennifer asked me if there was any chance of ne seeing this woman again...I said no. She proceded to tell me that this was a "non-issue" then, and that given the cercumstances of what WW had done, and how confused I may have been at the time, what I did was understandable. She said that it's something we "may" discuss in the future, but it seems like it's (like I said before) a "non-issue".

If what i did is just as bad as what WW did, why would she (a professional) call it a "non-issue"? Just asking.

Does your W think it is a non-issue?

Just my opinions but first off, I would not think the point is to compare the relative "evil" of each A. Second, I would not take her calling it a non-issue as a statement to the relative "evil" of your ONS.

I think as you continue the MC with her, that you will see they have a timeline and a process for working recovery. They're goal is to help you restore intimacy to the M. When I did MC with SH, he implied to me that in some cases, they work on restoring some level of intimacy and then tackle the A. In others, they tackle the A very early. I would imagine this is because it is "easier" (and I use the word "easier" very loosely) when some intimacy has returned and the spouses are starting to work together. But I assume there are some cases when discussing the A has to be done first because the BS can't do any of the work restoring intimacy until that is addressed.

Her calling it a non-issue is most likely related to her assessment of when you will have to work through it as opposed to if you will need to work through it. They try very hard to keep you focused on the task at hand.

IMO, that sounds very condesending.

She doesn't really speak about it very often, although I do tell her that I will answer any questions that she may need an answer to. NC is established, POJA is in effect, policy of radical honesty is in place, trying (to the best of my ability right now) to meet her EN's, 1st phone session done, 2nd one (rescheduled) tonight, etc...

Don't be so quick to to assume everything she says is spot-on, I don't care WHO he/she is.

During my first attempt at MC, when we were there due to "my insecurity, paranoia, and jealously ruining our marriage" our counselor said something I could not believe.

We had been discussing the possibility of her having an affair. I had no specific reason to be suspicious, no evidence...I really thought I was being an unreasonable jerk.

He looked me in the eye and said, "So tell me...if your wife really was having an affair, would it kill anyone?"

After I picked up my lower jaw, I told him, "Yes, as a matter of fact, it probably would cause some death".

We didn't see him again.

Did I mention that this occurred almost exactly at the midpoint of my wife's 3.5 year long affair?

Take anything ANY professional tells you with a grain of salt.

Be that as it may. Never intended it to be...just seems to be people here that keep trying to hammer the point home when the point is already taken. Trying to avoid that for once...that's all.

My apologies.

Hmmm...That doesn't really answer what I intended to ask. What I was asking was does your BS Affair bother her at all. I guess I am thinking that it can only be a non-issue if it does not bother your W at all. If it does bother her then does it really matter if a professional called it a non-issue?

I had a simlar experience with our MC. She sat there and pretty much berated (sp) me when I was trying to get more truth out of WW during the session. She pointed at WW (when she was putting on her crying performance) and said, "does she not look like she's been through enough, and that she's being hinest with you?". I said, "no, I've seen this all before a million times, and she's lying". MC says, "you need to stop asking these questions, because it's obvious to me that she is telling the truth, and that you need to move on and stop dwelling on this"...

...2 months later, I had d-day 2, and found out that WW was having the A during the time of that very MC session...I will never go back to that MC.

Thanks! I think sometimes it seems like I am trying to hammer a point home because often what you may view as answering a question did not really answer what I was intending to ask.

I totally agree. That is why my door is open if she ever wants to discuss the issue. I've never told her otherwise. In fact, I ask her quite frequently if there is anything about it that she would like to discuss. She usually says, "I just want to move forward", and I leave it at that.

I'm sure it does bother her, but if she doesn't want to discuss it, there isn't much I can do to help her. You can ask her yourself if it bother's her...she is a member here.

Sorry I missed this post...busy ducking and weaving.

My marriage ended the day my WW had sex with OM...that's when she chose to end it.

We are in recovery, and as I stated in my above post, we are doing it the MB way.

Our viewpoint on the possible recovery of our marriage is a little different than most. You see, W was unhappy before her A...I'm miserable after her affair (and mine). We are pretty much convinced that we need to enter our recovery with the mindset of "starting over". We were in love and happy before, so there has to be a way to get that back, but we are also not so naive as to think that we can do it the same way as our "first marriage"...it won't work. So, whether legally divorced, then re-married...or, just "starting over"...it's the same to us right now, and that's our mindset.

I actually think that's a great way to look at it. It separates the past from the future nicely.

Great question Krazy!

I've been thinking about this myself recently...

Even though I've flirted w/ the idea...and even some women...I didn't have my own affair b/c, no matter how much of a hit my self esteem took as a result of my WW's choice, HAVING AN AFFAIR WOULD MAKE ME A LESSER PERSON...

I would think less of myself.

Yes, Bob, mirrors are a good thing...

I'm with Bob too. Quite apart from my vows and my relationship with God, I have mirrors too.

I chose to make a better more ethical choice than my now-x. I looked at it as a matter of ethics and morals. And, when my children grew up, I wanted them to know I had walked the higher road.

You never know who is watching. You never know who holds you in great esteem. You never know who you are showing the path.

You live best by making the next good choice...and the next good choice. If it isn't a good choice, you are wise to not make it.

To answer the question in your subject as honestly as I could - I didn't have a "revenge affair" simply because the opportunity wasn't available when I was thinking of having one, and I had very low self-esteem at the time anyway (apart from the other issues affecting my life at the time, finding out that my FWW thought so little of me that she invited the OM to our home to scr*w him on our marital bed really did a number on my self esteem).

What if the opportunity does become available now? Again I'll be honest - I really don't know whether or not I'd actually pursue it. I know I'd be sorely tempted to give her a taste of her own medicine, and hit her just as unexpectedly as she hit me. And my society tends to turn a blind eye to men who cheat anyway.

But you know what - I'm hoping that my sense of morality kicks in as it usually does when it needs to, and saves me from doing something really stupid that I would regret later.

I did not because, regardless of what my spouse did, I still had to have respect for myself AND my vow. My vow was between me, my spouse and God.

It was important to be to be a man of integrity and, regardless of the desire to strike back, maintain my intergrity and pride. To do otherwise was to lessen myself as a man.

This is not about 'sexual excitement', it is about my integrity. My integrity demands that I not debase another human being so I can have some revenge or excitement.

What would it say about me if I were to choose to use another human being for my revenge or sexual gratification?

Guilt has a way of convincing someone that they don't have a right to be hurt. They will keep that bottled up inside and tell themselves "I hurt him/her, I don't have a right to be hurt".

I would urge you to seek her forgiveness not just 'leave the door open for discussion'.

You're right. If it bothered her then it would definately be an issue. To answer the question about whether it does bother her or not...I can only say that she doesn't want to discuss it, and that tells me that it does bother her...or doesn't it?...I don't know, but I'm just assuming it does. I'm not going to force her to discuss it. I am, after all, a BS as well...and I would be pretty pissed if W forced me to discuss her A at a time when I don't want to.

I have apologized...been completely honest and open about it all. NC is established and will never be broken. I'm willing to discuss anything about it that she wants to discuss. She just doesn't want to right now.

It seems that I am doing everything that a WS should be doing after my ONS was ended...including full disclosure (I admitted it before she even had to ask). I can understand that my way of telling W about it seems somewhat like "revenge", but what is the alternative to telling her the truth?....lying. Isn't NC and full disclosure the best way to end an A and have the truth come out? I thought it was...or would it have been better to try to hide it and wait for W to catch me?

I have.

Great Question....Like many, I too thought about it, but in all honesty, I just didn't want to. I realized that it wouldn't lessen the pain of what my FWH did one bit.

Over time I came to realize that if I had retaliated by having my own affair, it would have only added to my own pain. And, most importantly, it would have made recovering even more difficult that it already was.

Nothing to gain, too much to lose.

Who

I think I am at this point now myself.

To answer Krazy's question:

Flamingo could never have a Revenge Affair because she could never lower herself to my level.

To answer Introvert:

Makes alot more sense to me NOW why you were defending a BS (FL_Blindsided) who dates before the Divorce is final.

LG

I still defend him. I believe that he too didn't do it for revenge. He did it for the same reason I did...to get his EN's met by somebody when he was in the mindset that his marriage was over. I/or Blind didn't need anyone outside our marriages, a piece of paper, or a judge to decide when the marriages ended...our WW's did it already. No one has to agree with what I did, but I was not waiting for the "go ahead" from anyone else to pursue what I thought would fix "me". In hindsight, it was the wrong thing to do...and I can only deal with the consequences now. That's what I'm doing.

Why did I not have a revenge affair?


Why on Earth would I have an affair - do the one thing that is just about the equivalent of dropping a nuclear bomb on my marriage - when I am trying with everything I am to save my marriage?

Wrong.
Immoral.

And I could never see myself hurting anyone in the way I have been hurt. Never.


SB

I respect your opinion SB, but do you (hypothetically speaking) think that your husband would be as hurt as you, or would he be somewhat relieved to know that he wasn't the only one that did it?

I know it's easy to say "I never would, so it doesn't matter"...just a hypothetical question.

I don't want anyone to think I'm saying a RA is OK...I just know many BSs at least consider a RA at some point. I'm just wondering what has stopped them.

I remember, when I separated the first time, a girl in my office wanting to fix me up with a friend of a friend (who apparently resemebled Brendan Fraser). I said no thanks. I was in a world of hurt at the time, and the only person who I felt could help me out was PWC (this was before I found MB).

After my second separation, I mentioned to my sister about missing having someone to cuddle with, missing sex, missing a companion. She said that you can get sex anytime, with no strings. I said no thanks. I was still in a world of hurt and PWC was the only one I felt could fix it. PWC was the only one I wanted.

Now, I'm stronger, happier and much more sane. Having an affair would harm not only me, but my son and my family. It's not worth it. Plus those pesky mirrors all over the house.

I can't say I haven't contemplated it.

I don't because I am more of a man then the OM is, and I don't want to be an OM. I have extreme testicular fortitude, and remembering that a real man keeps his vows and commitments when everyone else around may be doing something else is all the boost my self-esteem needs.

Sorry to all those WH's out there, but REAL men don't cheat on their wives.

NRO

FIRST, my conscience. SECOND, the fact that I made the decision never to have an affair long before thoughts of revenge arose.

And, to be totally honest...I would have been too freakin' scared to anyway. I've only been with one woman -- my wife. Just the thought of being naked with another woman is plenty uncomfortable. So I guess perhaps, FEAR was my third reason.

So, you don't consider your W a REAL woman?

Introvert,

My husband would be completely devastated if I had an affair.

Because he would think that his affair contributed to so much pain in my heart that his love could not heal, and that the reason I had an affair was because of what he did, and he would blame himself.

My FWH would break into shattered pieces so small that I would not be able to pick them up. His pain would be unfathomably great - probably more than what I suffered, because he would carry three sets of pain:

The pain of his guilt from his own affair, the pain of my betrayal of him, and the third set of pain - MY pain from his affair. Yes, he carries that, because he fully understands it, bears it, sees it, and takes it into his heart daily as I attempt to recover from it.

I could not add to his pain, for he has both his own and mine to bear. To have a revenge affair would burden him beyond repair.

Today, this very morning, he gave me a letter of apology and cried with me. This because I had a rough day over the weekend, triggered over some recent events. He makes amends wherever he can, and fills the cracks.

I have no purpose in seeking revenge. There is no revenge to be found against those who love me. This man loves me.

Why would I hurt him?
Even at his weakest moment, in the throes of the affair, he loved me.

There was no doubt that he loved me.
He was stupid, yes.
He was irresponsible, yes.
He was disrespectful, dishonest, disloyal, and much more, yes.

But at no time did he stop loving me.

He is not my enemy. He is someone I love, with whom I want a future, a marriage, a partnership, a friendship, a life, a glorious loving ever-after.

I would not have a revenge affair on him. And yes, it would crush his heart if I did, destroy his very soul, in the same way his affair destroyed mine. We are, after all, partners, friends, lovers, living in a glorious ever-after...with this one hitch in the mix. Which we have, and will, survive.

Schoolbus

I sense a bit of a double standard in this thread as far as how many people her are handling my ONS "BS affair" as compared to how the same people handle a WS (who were the 1st to break their vows).

It seems that if a WS comes to MB, and is honest in what they did, adopts all of MB principles, seeks counselling, and does everything "by the book" as one would say...they get nothing but encouragement on how to fix what they did. Why is it that if someone does the aformentioned things to fix their marriage, and adds in that BS wasn't meeting my EN's theat they seem to get some leeway, as long as they are committed to recovery?

I'm 100% committed to recovery, get harley counselling, adopted MB principles...and I also said that my EN of SF was not fullfilled. I'm 100% responsible for my actions as far as the ONS is concerned...but yet, not much support from any members.

Is the fact that someone says that their affair started with EA instead of PA the reason? Is the whole "revenge" tag associated for a BS's affair the reason. Is it the final verdict that "revenge" is always the reason? That tag seems to be like some sort of blanket statement that sums up every single BS affair, when the original affair can have about 50 different reasons. Why is that?

Schoolbus,

That was a great post, but some things came to mind as I read it:

Do you really think he was oblivious to how much you'd be hurt by his A? He had to know that it would be a potential marriage-ender. How can you be so sure he loved you during the A, when you yourself say your love for him is one thing that stopped you? Would you be as sure he loved you if he had passed HIV (for example) to you?

I'm not debating you; I'm just curious how you can be so sure he loved you while he was doing something that EVERY spouse knows will tear the heart out of their partner.

A WS can fake and lie their way through anything, including love.

In my opinion, any spouse who's currently cheating and says they still love their spouse, has no idea what love really is.

It is akin to physically abusing your kids, but saying you loved them, even as you beat them.

That's a very twisted version of love, if it's love at all.

Krazy,

He loved me. There's no doubt about that. While his behavior does represent the opposite of fidelity, it is possible for a person to love you and to be unfaithful to you.

It happens every day. The very concept of MB is that a spouse believes that they are no longer "in love" with their partner, so they have an affair. The fact is that they ARE in love with their partner, it is just that certain factors have occurred which diminish those feelings - such as not having the EN's met at a high enough level, for example. Longer term marriages I think get more vulnerable because the couple becomes more complacent as the years go by.

Was he oblivious to the hurt it would have caused me if I found out? Of course not. He went to great lengths to keep me from finding out - and told me that he had planned that I never would find out. He said that the secret tore him up. He said at one point he was looking at me during dinner, and asked himself, "What are you doing???? You have a beautiful wife that you love, and you are doing this, it would kill her, you need to stop!" Yet it somehow had him in a crazy grip and he felt twisted in its grasp. He swore to himself he would die to protect me from the pain.

It just didn't work out the way he planned.


In the case of my FWH's affair, there actually was NOT an emotional affair - it was a "sex buddy" situation, nothing else. The OW confirms it, and I do know her and her background and activities. It was what it was, and given the factors and the truth of the situation, that is what happened.

My FWH could have lied about loving me, certainly. Anyone can. But during the affair we went places, on dates, we did things together, entertained, had parties, made love. I knew something was wrong, but he loved me - and never stopped telling me that. He was sincere, truthful in that.

He could have lied about loving me, but you know your partner. You know lies when they drip off the lips of someone, especially when you have known that person for 33 years. You cannot fake love, or the remorse this man has, and you cannot fake the guilt. He could not fake loving me - he is not an actor, and it isn't in him to carry on for two and a half years (let alone planning to do it for the rest of his life!) in an act of love and restitution if he did not mean everything he is saying and doing. My FWH is basically an honest man, who did something dishonest and out of character. This affair does not define him as a whole person, this "worst" part of him does not define him. Neither does his "best" part define him.

During the affair, he did things that were outside of his character. He lied, which is out of the ordinary. He sneaked around, out of the ordinary. He had secrets, out of the ordinary.

He is once again his "normal" self. Actually, he has made significant changes to his "normal" self, in that he is completely open and honest about everything - little daily things he does, computers, calls, etc. I have access to anything, anytime. He talks to me about the most inner feelings he has, something he didn't do before the affair - but he used to do awhile back in our relationship. He does so many things for me, recognizes my needs, and takes care of them. We are recovering - and would not be here if he hadn't been pulling the chain with me.

So I know he loved me during the affair. He just was doing things that betrayed the love. Sort of like cutting off your nose to spite your face. He hurt us, yes. Like I said, he has his own pain to bear, and mine, too. He is bearing that, with dignity.

So

It never entered my mind. Divorce was what I was contemplating.

Two words.....My integrity.

Why no RA?

Because I am glad I am me and not her.

why no RA???

After all the BS he has put me through, right now all men suck......

and it just is not in me.....no matter what

not2fun

Why no RA?

Because I took vows and would never dream of stooping to that level.

I am much happier as a BS than a WS. I can look in the mirror and know I didn't break my vows and betray the person I was supposed to be with "till death do us part".

I've also never seen cheating as an act against the spouse. I've seen it as an act against the family, knowing full well such an act impacts children as well. So I may not have done it for her, but I certainly would never inflict such a horrid act on my children.

Neither would I if I had children.

Honest answer.

Introvert:

There is no "Double Standard"

The standard around here is that you don't date until after the Divorce is final and it is recommended that one wait up to two years to get into a new realtionship to avoid rebounds and possibly another bad sitch.

You recommended dating as soon as the BS thought the marriage was "done".

That's foggy thinking. Many a WS has used the line "I was DONE with the M so it was OK for me to sleep with the AP!"

MEDC, for example, feels about the same way you do. That it is OK to date before the D is final. He prefaces his remarks, however, by stating that it isn't MB to say that. Plus, he never did it. So, MEDC claiming that it is OK? Comes from a different place that your claim. You seem to just be defending your poor decision. And THAT is foggy thinking.

Just my .02

LG

So, even though I'm booking counselling sessions with Jennifer for W and I, following MB principles (all of them), have NC with OW, allow W info on "everything" I do every day, express remorse for the ONS, etc.... I am still doing something wrong? My W started a membership here and was greeted with open arms after I recommended she come here. Why the different reponse for me?

edit:

Just making sure, once again, that people know I was not aware of MB until after my ONS. If I was aware of MB I would not have done it...just to make it clear.

Why I didn't have a revenge affair:

Well, once upon a time (decades ago) I did try that and it did not help me feel better about my WH's serial adultery and didn't cause him to stop his adulteries (in fact he just used my revenge adultery as his excuse for all his adulteries after that, they were supposedly 'revenge affairs' becuase of my adultery...)

I promptly confessed my very brief affair, explained (not excused) that I was vulnerable to the temptation because of his adulteries and because he not only wasn't meeting my needs but was flirting with OW right in front of me, giving OW the very things he was refusing to give me! I told my husband I wanted a real marriage, wanted our problems to be solved, for us to go to counseling, and that I would never cheat again.

And even though he refused to work on our marriage, wasn't interested in meeting my needs, continued to give to OW what I wanted from him, had several more affairs himself, I never had another revenge affair.

Even when he dumped me for one of his OW and filed for divorce, I still didn't cheat.

When he DEMANDED visitation with ME, not just our daughters, said I "had to" come along for visitation all day Saturdays with him and daughters, said he was going to come over after work every day to have dinner with us, hang out and watch videos like he was still part of the family (even though he had just dumped me again to go back to OW after yet another failed recovery attempt) I asked how he thought that was going to work when I started dating after the divorce. His response was that I was "too old to date" and that "no man" would "want" me! (Ironically many of the men who've shown an interest in me are too young for me LOL.) Because he'd sais that, my mother wanted me to start dating ASAP, even though the divorce still was not final. But I wouldn't because it would have been wrong to do so and my daughters were upset enough already by having one wayward parent.

Several of my friends (some 'Christian' friends even) tried to set me up with men to date. I refused because I was still married and still wanting to save my marriage. (And then later after I was divorced I still refused to date THOSE particular males because they were the sort who saw nothing wrong with dating a married woman.)

There were also some guys at the ballroom dance lessons/functions I was taking my daughters and their teen friends to who were interested in dating me. But since I was still married and there to chaperone the teens I turned them down. And just like the guys my friends tried to set me up with, since they were willign to date me when I was still married, I'm not interested in them. Anyway a couple of them have a sort of grudge against me now, an immature attitude that I 'rejected' them by not considering dating them when I was still married... whatever LOL. (One was a gentleman, Christian, great dancer, good looking, and totally respected/agreed that it would be wrong for me to date before the divorce was final... before my divorce was final he met another divorced lady at ballroom dance and married her. That's fine with me because they are such a great Christian couple and my next husband will have to be a man who wants SPECIFICALLY me anyway LOL)

Then for a while after the divorce I still didn't want to date because I still loved my WXH and was still hoping for reconciliation.

I'd be willing to consider dating now (but not the one-on-one, sex before marriage trend) but so far all the interested males are too young IMHO or those guys who wanted to date me when I was still married.

I STRONGLY suspect that my WXH might suddenly show an interest in reconciliation once I start dating a new man. I admit was tempted at times to date even if I really wasn't interested in a new man, as a way to get my WXH to shift gears... but that would have been wrong and I'm not a good bluffer anyway. At times I even worried that by NOT dating I was throwing away possibly THE only chance to get my WH to take an interest in reconciliation, to make him jealous enough to defog... It certainly would have been a 180 and therefore likely very effective. But even if that might have worked it still would have been wrong.

And I wouldn't have wanted to use another man that way anyway.

I worry that when I do meet a new man my WXH will want to reconcile when it's too late. What I know about myself is that once I do give my heart to a new man I will no longer want reconciliation with my WXH. My guess is he will react just like MEDC's WXS and will start making demands. This really worries me because I've had MAJOR boundary and abuse issues with my WXH in the past and certainly wouldn't want THAT again!

I'm REALLY glad my WXH lives in another state now and therefore he only comes here a few times per year (he visits his mommy and sisters in Florida a LOT more than he comes here, even though he's way closer to us. Hey, I'm not complaining LOL)

Why didn't I have a revenge affair? After seeing how much harm my WXH's adultery did to my daughters why would I want to ever see them go through that again? Whatever cheap thrill or illegitimate self-esteem boost I might have gotten from a revenge affair certainly would not have been justified since it would have inflicted more hurt on my daughters at a time when they needed at least one parent to be sane and unselfish!

And it would be pointless to get involved with a man who would be willing to commit adultery anyway as that would not have led to a successful new marriage for me, would it? I don't exactly want my next husband to be an adulterer too!

Also, I didn't have a revenge affair because as bad as it hurt to be on the receiving end of the devastation of adultery I would still prefer that to being an adulterer. I would not want to become something so vile and low. I wouldn't be able to like or respect myself much if I did that.

And last but not least, my relationship with God is very important to me now. I don't want sex or a man in my life enough to damage my relationship with God.

Here's a different angle for you. I believe that not only are we humans, but we are spiritual beings as well. "I" believe that when a man and a woman join together in sex, there are soul ties formed. Those ties are very hard to break. I don't believe there is such a thing as a casual "roll in the hay".

So to me, no matter who does it first, those bonds are still formed. A marriage is taking a vow in front of witnesses to remain bonded together in marriage for the rest of your lives. Whoever breaks that special and sacred bond to be with another (casually or otherwise), brings that other person into the marriage, spiritually and physically.

I agree.

intro,

So, no, I don't think you are doing everything wrong in your recovery efforts.

I only think you have this one thing wrong, that's all. MHO is that the ONS was wrong, it was impulsive, and that it was equal in "badness" to your WW's infidelity.

I think you see, looking back, that it was not the reaction you would have chosen had you known what you know now.

And it wasn't the reaction that you would want to report to your Grandma.

And it wasn't the reaction that makes you feel honorable. Or just. Or right. Or true.

When it all comes down to it, you know in your heart that if you could take it back, you would. That alone tells you that you know it was wrong.

You can throw out the legalities. You can take any hair splitting stuff and do whatever you want with it. You can examine any religious text for details and scriptures to apply.

When all is said and done, you wish you hadn't done it because you know in your heart that it wasn't the right reaction and that you want to take it back.

Not by MY standards or anyone else's - but by YOUR OWN.

So starting from that point, you move forward. You make restitution. You decide what is right. But I will say this - from what you wrote, and from the fact that you brought it up, you yourself know that it is NOT a "non-issue".

I'm not saying it is WORSE than your wife's affair. Equal. Just equal.

And I am very happy you are both here, using the approaches to recover your marriage.

Because I know the concepts here work. As long as both parties understand what to own, what not to own, what to do, that they BOTH need to work, and when to ask for help.

Looks like you are on the right track, in my book.

SB

pretty interesting thread. have been reading, hoping to reply but didn't have time to get my arthritic old fingers going.

intro......i really wanted to respond to those swiss cheese looking excuses you gave for you A. but there are just so many holes that i would be typing for three days the way i use the key board.

i too considered having the RA many times and many different ways. i even considered trying to knock it out with om's w. wouldn't that have been a crusher for both om and ww.

i went to a 25 yr reunion without my (at the time ww) figuring this would be my get back. met some old friends, danced, drank, had lots of laughs and drank some more. had the target and started working the silver tongue magic. then it happened. for some reason or another i held her hand and that was the end of it.

you see after holding my w's hand for over 20 odd years this other womans hand just didn't fit. it felt funny and uncomfortable. then i realized that i was meant to be with my w and mt w only from the day i said my vows to the day i died.