I am a Christian and met my wife when she was not a Christian. About a month into our friendship she told me she was married, I decided to ignore the fact and we commited adultary. She ended up leaving her husband for me and we married 3 years later. We've been married now for 5 years but with much guilt between us. She has since become a Christian but it does not change the fact how we met, what we did and the guilt we continually feel which leads to other marriage issues like distrust and fighting.

Lately I've been feeling like we should divorce because God did not join our marriage since we were marrying against Gods rules. The Bible clearly states over and over that leaving ones wife or husband to marry another is adultary, and I believe you keep commiting adultary as long as youre in that marriage, am I wrong to think this way?

Do we need to wash our hands clean of this marriage that started in total sin and lies so we can be clean in Gods eyes.

One example that keeps playing in my mind is someone who stole someone elses car, after stealing it he's sorry about it, repents before God and promises to never steal again, but yet he continues to drive the car daily.

Any advice or words of wisdom would be highly appreciated.

You'd better put on a crash helmet, Buddy.

Charlotte

Do you have kids?

I don't believe you can go wrong following the direct instructions of Jesus. My view is that, whether or not you choose to divorce, that for the two of you to have sex is adultery still, based on what Jesus said about adultery. I don't believe that His words were intended to give the adulterous spouse license to marry whomever they chose, even the A partner. Some here would disagree with this.

A similar problem was apparently faced by missionaries who took the gospel to faraway places where the men of the tribes often had multiple wives. When they chose to become Christians, these polygamous men would keep their first wife, the one recognized as their spouse in the eyes of heaven, and no longer have sex with their other wives. However, they would build them another house and continue to support them. They didn't just take it as an excuse to dump them completely, but took care of them in a non-sexual capacity.

Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear. I truly don't believe you can rid your lives of adultery while you are still intimate.

One final note, the story of David and Bathsheba is often used to sanction adulterous marriages. However, those who use it fail to point out that Bathsheba was far from David's first wife, so even with her husband dead, he had a number of other women he had already married. And also, that God calling David a man after His own heart doesn't mean He approved of David's marriages. Polygamy was not regarded as wrong in those dark times, and David lived up to the light he knew. Jesus came and set the record straight again.

I'm sorry for where you find yourself. Even though you chose it, it's not easy to face something like this honestly, and I admire your willingness to consider this.

Yes, your marriage is a continuation of the sin. The example of the stolen car is dead on!

No kids involved.

Thank you Neak and medc for your replys.

you are welcome. I admire you for being able to see the error of your ways.

You AND your wife have a debt to repay to her husband and I can assure you that unless it is settled, you will be turned over to the Judge hinself and he WILL hand you over to the jailer.

TC,

If you want to get a divorce then get one. But using "God" as a copout is utterly ridiculous. Grow a pair...tell your wife the "real" reason...tell us the "real" reason (if you have it in you)...then I'm sure some members here will give you some marriage advice.

I for one am not going to fall for this "God would want me to divorce" jargon. It's a load of bull.

Tell us the truth about why you want to leave your wife.

As a Christian, it makes perfect sense to me. It tells me he has a conscience and the Holy Spirit is convicting him. I think that's good news.

To the OP, I admire your desire to do the right thing. Thank God you do not have children with your partner in crime!

It makes sense to me as well.

Ok....so, he gets married "in sin", but didn't think of the ramifications of it until now (when the time is convenient), and you guys are just going to jump on board and say "divorce is the right thing to do"?

I think he is a wayward in the making, but disguising himself as a "christian doing the right thing".

...and he has you all duped.

And what's your basis for this judgment?

Honestly, I don't think it matters if there is another reason.

Doing the right thing is doing the right thing. If there are additional, less noble motivations for doing the right thing, the Holy Spirit will work to convict him of that, as well.

Duped? Hardly. It just doesn't matter. Should we tell him, "Don't do the right thing because your motives may not be pure. Keep on sinning until your reasons for not sinning are all good." ?????????

The fact that I don't allow religion to cloud my judgement.

Someone comes in here and says that they are in a 5 year long marriage and wants to end it, but just has to throw "god" into the mix to get you all behind him.

Where was "God" 8 years ago when he was screwing another man's wife? Where was "God" 5 years ago when he married his wife?

Seems a little too convenient to me that someone who claims to be a Christian would forget about God for 8 years, but use him as a reason to get a divorce......way too convenient.

But go ahead....don't ask him to get his wife here....don't ask him to try MB priciples....just toe the line....that's fine.

He's full of crap.

You call yourself a Christian after opening with this statement?

I can go stand in my garage and call myself a car but that doesn't make it true.

Until his wife comes here and says "he's 100% correct, and telling the whole truth...we should get divorced, and God is the reason behind it"....you guys are doing nothing but advocating a H to leave his wife on HIS TERMS...nothing to do with God.

There is another side to this story.

I don't really think he can be a wayward, at least in his current "marriage", which is illegitimate in my opinion.

Let's call it what it is...I like the term "affairage".

Um...he didn't say he married her when she was married. I'm assuming she got divorced before marrying him. If it was illegitimate then why did God allow it to happen?

You believe God created the entire universe, but you don't think he can take care of your adultery, requiring you to take drastic action yourself?

Jeez, you'd think a being who willed the cosmos into existence would get a little more credit from one of his followers...

Perfectly stated!

Intro, yes I suppose it is possible that this guy has a new woman picked out. If that's the case, God will not bless that relationship either. But as far as I can see, we have no evidence of that, in fact not even a hint or clue (unless there are posts I have missed.)

So, as with any other members, I am going by what I see, until otherwise enlightened. And the fact is, he has been living in adultery for 5 years, so I am glad he is ending it.

As far as "Where was God when this began?"

Well, unfortunately He was being pushed away so the OP and his partner in adultery could enjoy their sin. God does not FORCE His presence. But I have known of many cases where God spent years working on someone's heart until they finally repented and turned to Him. Hopefully that is the case here. If it's just an excuse to get involved with another off-limits partner, God will see right through that.

TJ/
I think that's exactly what's happening.

Doesn't matter though, it's obvious that any thread that mentions someones beliefs pretty much pushes your button for whatever reason. The pain comes through loud and clear. Have you looked at that?

If this post bothers you so much, why post on it? Isn't that what you said about posting to suspected BA threads?

/TJ

Most Christians who are in blatant sin choose to ignore that sin... you know... just like a wayward chooses to ignore their vows to their betrayed spouse? Doesn't mean they can't repent and turn from their ways.

Turning from their ways in this case would mean actually ending the marriage.

Not that I want to start a religious debate, but God also allowed the Holocaust to happen.

I personally view all marriages that start as affairs as illegitimate.

And I would ask that those of you who come to a Christian website (and yes the Harleys say that it is), try and show some respect for Christian beliefs. It is disingenuous for you to come here and mock Christian beliefs. It's like going to a Chevrolet forum and belittling Chevys (only worse.)

Then why aren't we all divorced?

Everyone here is either a "sinner" or is married to one. Why are any Christians even here if all of this is so cut and dry for you guys?

We agree on this!

Thank you.

Did I mock Christianity in some way?

I attend service on Sunday...doesn't mean that every person who claims "enlightenment" after being a sinner for 8 years is all of a sudden an honest person in my eyes.

The guy is just using the ultimate excuse for leaving his wife, and has every Christian here cought...hook, line and sinker. Except me.

I don't understand the question.
We are here because we are fighting for our God-ordained marriages, which have been put in danger through poor decisions by one or both spouses.
Yes, we are all sinners, but that doesn't mean we have completely surrendered to sin. We are striving to overcome.

Where did I mock Chrisianity?

**edit**

Thanks for nothing MB.

No, YOU did not. Introvert did.

c ya skippy.


bwaaaaa

Wow, Intro, aren't you special?! The exception to every rule!
How'd ya get so much smarter than the rest of us mere mortals?

This topic was briefly discussed in the last Divorcecare meeting I attended. It was said that God hates divorce and that even if the marriage had this kind of beginning, it should be saved.

I am not sure that I agree with that, I am undecided.

BUT, I do think that OP and his wife need to ask her exH what amends they need to make to him. The exH is the victim here, he is the one who was wronged.

If the OP and his wife have not made amends to their victim, then it does sound like self serving whining. IMO

I sincerely hope you're wrong Intro. I guess time will tell.

If he's duping us, does it really matter? If he's not for real, maybe someone out there reading this in the same situation will get their question answered. Maybe that reader will be convicted to make things right in their own life.

**DIT**

Please keep your posts helpful to the poster and stop the religious bashing. We don't want to have to lock this thread.

Thanks

**edit**

old enough to not care what you think.

Kind of late to be worried about it now. Is your wife's ex going to take her back? Does your wife want the divorce or you?

To the OP:

I attended a church for five years. The associate pastor there was a woman who met her husband when she was in high school and he was her married teacher (these days he would have been prosecuted with sexual assault to a child). Nevertheless, he ended up divorcing his wife and marrying her. They've been together now for over 30 years. Neither one of them were Christians when they married.

I always had a problem with this because the Bible is clear. People tried to say, "yeah but they weren't Christians when they married and when you get saved all sin is washed away." I still didn't quite buy that because the Word doesn't say, "Thou shalt not commit adultery... except if you're not a Christian."

The final straw for me was when they announced that this couple was going to teach a marriage seminar. Even though they had done lots of good "works" throughout the years... the origin of their marriage, based on sin, caused those works to be tainted... for me personally. It just didn't feel right for me.

I guess everyone will know for sure one day.

As for your marriage, it's not really a marriage that can be blessed by God. This has to be very painful for you to face.

What does your wife say about it all?

Well, I made up the term, and I hate it.

Illegitimate or not, introvert has a point. He's using God as an excuse for not fixing this mess, but running away instead.

-ol' 2long
Not back, medc

Huh???

2long-- did you take your meds today?

Who's running away? Not fixing what mess? :crosseyedcrazy:

Welcome back. I thought you were long-gone. Maybe I should take more of my meds.

Show me.


What about debating them respectfully? When does it become offensive 2 overly-sensitive people?

-ol' 2long

No, I musta taken yours by mistake!


The OP is running away, or trying 2 justify doing so.


The mess his marriage is in. I think you'd find, like on the affair marriage thread where Dr Harley made one of his all-2-rare appearances, that he'd try 2 save even this marriage, because it's in trouble.


Instead of mine?

I am long gone. I still recommend people I've met who've been subjected 2 infidelity call the Harleys, but I don't send anybody here anymore.

-ol' 2long

I do think you need to check something out. You state you are and was a Christian when you met her. She was M. Where were your beliefs then? Where were your beliefs when you M her? And why now because she now sees the way is there regreat in the M?

I do not think you should seek D as an answer. We are all sinners from whatever beliefs we have. We are here for two things.
1. SUPPORT and
2. Advice/guidence

I would talk to your pastor and tell him how you and your W met, and continued on and to the point of where you both stand today. G-D does forgive.

tc99

What do you see as your options?

Wow, didnt realize I'd stir up so many emotions from so many people.


Our marriage has been in trouble for a long time now, its not that just now I decided to start thinking of a divorce. Throughout our entire marriage (right from the beginning) my wife out of guilt for marrying me would tell me things like " my ex treated me better", "my ex spent more money on me", "I made a mistake marrying you", "youre not the man for me", "I'm now being punished because of our adultery", These things and worse I've endured hearing almost on a weekly basis. About two years ago I really started losing feelings for her because of these things being said over and over, I sat her down MANY times and told her that she's slowly killing my love for her but she never took notice of my warnings. Beginning of this summer I told her that I cant go on like this if I have to hear these things constantly, she again didnt care and continued saying them until about 3 months ago when I told her we should split. Finally then it hit it and she has not said anything painful since. At the same time my feelings were no longer and I told her I needed time to decide what we're going to do. So for the last 3 months we've kind of kept our distance from each other because I needed time to see how I still felt about her. I've been praying and telling God that I do not want a divorce but at the same time I do not want to stay married to someone that I have no feelings for and for God to give me back those feelings if he wants us to stay together. Those feelings have not been coming back but instead I kept hearing a voice saying I will not bless this marriage because of your sins. I started reading different Christian marriage books along with studying the Bible and the same message keeps echoing, even last weekend my wife and I were watching a Christian program on TV and the same message.

My wife does NOT want to get divorced but totally agrees that our marriage is most likely doomed and will not be blessed.

We have already spoken about contacting her ex and both agree on trying to ask for forgiveness from him, we just have to find out where he lives because he most likely moved out of state.

There is no other woman and I am not using God as a way out. It is simply the build up from a bad marriage that God never wanted to take place and it has taken this long for things to come to this.

*giggles maniacally*

I just can't find a speck in my worthless soul that remotely feels sorry for you.

Oh well.

At this time I see 2 options.

Stay in the marriage with both of us miserable, we've both never felt a unity between us, not surprised of course.

or

Split and try to make things right. I want both of us to be in a marriage thats built on Gods love and have his blessings. I want my wife to be married to someone where she can tell him how happy she is to have married him.

I didnt come here to ask for sympathy, I'm a big boy and can take it. I know what I did and I'm not afraid to fess up to it and take resposibility for it.

What I came here mostly for was to ask some of you for wisdom in my understanding of the Bible. Meaning, do we do a complete 180 and break a marriage which God never wanted to happen or do we still find favor in Gods eyes and he blesses us regardless as long as we repent?

Can it be clarified by any one on this forum whether Tc99 is, in fact, married to his "wife" in the eyes of God?

I seem to recall that St John had his head chopped off for criticizing some ruler for marrying his brother's wife.

Jesus also made judgment of the woman at the well's marital status.

Is there a Theologian in the house?

You will find both views at this site.

The death of an affair marriage is not a surprise. The same things that made it wrong in the beginning continue to affect the two of you even now. Your chances of making it past 5 years were less than 1 in 100, and there's a reason for that.

While you're here, you might as well read up on the dynamics of how affairs happen and why they end. I think you will learn a lot, and gain a good understanding of why the last 5 years of your life have gone the way they have.

I admire you for even being willing to look at this - most Christian folks in affair marriages do not have the courage to examine the subject honestly, even if they come to believe they should stay together. They usually just get really mad if questioned and say that God is blessing their marriage now, no matter how it started. Good for you for looking at both sides.

You didn't read my original post didja?

You owe the BH a debt and you aren't gonna get any sort of "blessing" until that debt is settled even if you two love birds divorce.

Luke 12:58
For as thou art going with thine adversary before the magistrate, on the way give diligence to be quit of him; lest haply he drag thee unto the judge, and the judge shall deliver thee to the officer, and the officer shall cast thee into prison.

Of course I read your reply along with everyone elses, honestly, thank you!

I was restating my reason for coming on here and not to make it seem like I'm looking for pity for the situation I'm in.

You don't need to be a theologian. Compare everything the Bible has to say on the subject. (Not that I am posting every single verse here. )


Note: the word fornication is also translated 'unchastity', and simply means sexual misconduct.





Not exhaustive, but these are the main ones.

And, since you mentioned about John the Baptist, who was the greatest of all the prophets, according to Jesus.... (Matthew 11:11)


Notice that John didn't ask first if they had any children, or how long they had been married, or whether Herod Philip had been abusive to Herodias.

"It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife."

Pretty plain, and he lost his head for it.

Questions

1. Does the former husband want his X-wife back?

2. Was your wife the one to file for divorce?

3. Did the X-husband want a divorce?

4. Do your wife and her X-husband have kids?

5. Why did you do this if you knew it was wrong?

1. We dont know, she says she never really loved him, so her going back to him is not even an option.

2. Yes

3. No

4. No

5. Saying I was young and stupid only goes so far, but honestly, I wasnt close to God at the time and the temptation was too great for me to resist. My wife is extremely beautiful and she has a very sweet personality, I fell in love with her, even against my better judgement.

Thanks for doing all the legwork Neak.

Therefore from this conclusion:

1. Split up. Tc99 was never married.
2. Mrs Tc99 cannot remarry?
3. What of Mr Tc99 and future marriage prospects as adulterer?

Comment?

She was having an affair with you. She is a wayward and was lying about him. Waywards change their history to suit their wants.




It called coveting, and lust.

I think there's a commandment about that somewhere.

Standard wayword fog babble.

If she never loved him, why did they get married?

Simple, she did love him, and then rewrote history after your affair started. Just like every other wayword.

Given your awnsers I see a few posabilities to resolve the problem.

1. If, for some strange reason the X-husband still wants her back. Incourage her to return to him and divorce her. Do everything you can to restore the mairrage you destroyed.

2. If the X-Husaband does not want her back. Both of you should find him and grovel and plea for his forgivness. Ask for his blessing in renewing your vows and have a recommitment ceramony with his blessing. (Not likley that a betrayed spouce would bless anything for his adultourouse former spouce, but try anyway) This may wash away your guilt, and restart the mairrage under better circimstances.

3. If the X-husband does not want her back, and will not forgive you and give you his blessing. Stay married to her and try the best you can to make the abomination that you created work. Stay with her forever or untill she eventually cheats on you, leaves you for another man, and divorces you. This is the price you should pay for what has been done.

4. (And this is my advice to all adulturers) If you want to undo the completly conciouse long term choices you have made, Build a time machine.

Impossable?????

Well her husband probably thought it was impossable for his wife to leave him and divorce him to marrie her affair partner, but it happened. You helped make the impossable happen once, do it again.

What denom are you?

If you're Catholic, you're not married.

Catholic's can't marry in the church w/o an annullment so even if the JP says you're married, you're not.

Real simple for us Catholics.

Not Catholic.

I agree with Introvert - we are all being scammed by an unrepentent adulterer. He was a Christian and just couldn't help himself. The other man's wife was too beautiful. So he put God out of his life and followed his earthly desires.

And he bought the cow. Apparently he was happy for a time, but as soon as he got unhappy about his wife comparing him to her ex, he suddenly remembered God. I don't call that conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Affair marriages never last, and our poster has hit that wall.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

TC...there are some here that understand where you are coming from and I think it is great that you have been moved to recognize your errors.

The same people that attack you here...like the one quoted above...go out of their way to accept a FWS. Well... you are trying to do the right thing ...just like a FWS ...and you are looking for direction. Pay no heed to these people and use the IGNORE feature as needed(click on the persons name and ignore this user).

The last thing that I can add is that I was always under the belief that God forgives and we were good. It wasnt until recently that God started opening both my wifes and my eyes and realizing that its not the case, he does forgive but we must also make changes.

The verbal abuse is no big deal, those are spats and after reading some of Dr. Henry Clouds books I realize that we made many little mistakes that most couples make during their marriage, those things can be fixed, the guilt that we continue to feel cannot.

I am truley ashamed for what I did and have always wished to turn back time and talk some sense to that young kid who thought he knew better.

TC

I know you and your wife have "opened" your eyes to see how your M came too. Yes if you can get forgiveness from the ex would be a great thing but I am sure that is unlikely especially if your W and him parted on bad terms.

Being seperated you have heard G-D talk to you over many times and telling you whats deep in your heart. And you know by any faith you should follow what is given to you. Only you will have to pick which road to take.

The road to repetance *sorry if spelling is off* or the road to keep a M that wasnt sought right by G-D.

God does forgive, but you where not good.

Brings us back to #4
Sorry, I just get tired of the "I wish I could go back and undo what I have done" line.

You are correct.
How young where you?
How young was she?
How did you meet?
Where you in a relationship at the time?

And the funnest one of all, did you know her X-husband?

Then whats the problem? Sounds like you two love birds have everything it takes to make it work! Take on the world, buck the system, dont listen to anyone, you guys have "true love" to guide you.

I know pleanty of athiests who manage to stay out of an affair with a married woman. They dont know god at all, so how do they mannage?









Ok, I'm gonna give you my honest advise. I have a rather simplistic view of religion and marriage, everyones belifes are diferent.



God hates adultery, but that one has already been done, you and your wife cant undo that.

God hates divorce, you and your wife have already destroyed her first marriage and caused her divorce. You cant undo that, and I doubt the X-husband would want her back now. (but find out)

But that doesn't change the fact that God still hates divorce. And wile you both may be responsible for the distruction of her first marriage, YOU are now Married to each other..........

You screwed up, you cant change that. What you can do is spend the rest of your life trying to keep your marriage from ending in that same thing that god hates..... Divorce.
Read some books, get some counseling, talk to your paster/preist/etc

Thats just my opinion

Has anyone ever read about David in the Bible?

David was OBEDIENT.

THAT is why he was a man after God's own heart.

Cars are not people and cars don't marry anyone. People are not property, they are created in the image of God. Poor analogy, in my humble opinion.

There is a problem with stealing just as there is with adultery...they are both sins and contrary to God's perfect law.

That said, God also knows that NONE of us is perfect nor capable of being perfect, hence the need for Jesus Christ to BE the perfect substitutionary sacrifice that "paid the price" that was due us.

So, as a believer, what do you think God means when He tells you that all who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior means?

What do you think about the idea that ONE sin constitutes "being guilty of breaking all the commandments" and guilty before the Lord, with the sentence of eternal separation from God already pronounced upon anyone who IS a sinner?

What do you think about the idea that ONE man paid the price for all sin required as the just penalty for sin? What makes the difference between being a forgiven sinner and an unforgiven sinner?

Someone mentioned David (yes, it gets brought up quite frequently). The penalty prescribed by the law in David's time was DEATH, no appeal. In addition, David was also guilty of murder (Uriah). Upon David's repentance (a turning away from the SIN, not from Bathsheba), what did God, the one true and just Judge say to David?

But David also had to live with the earthly consequences of his sin, and DIVORCE was not the "answer" to his problems.

What do you think WAS David's answer to his problems and why did God give David and Bathsheba a son called Solomon?

While you are thinking about that, let me also ask you about what Jesus told the seven brothers who married the same woman. How might that have application to God's perspective on marriage?

Then there is also the ever present discussion that Jesus had with the Pharisees concerning Divorce, and His clarification of the "grounds for divorce." And please, don't forget that you ARE married, regardless of how the marriage began.

And while we are "playing catch-up" with the discussion, what do you think was Jesus' "point" in the parable of the Good Samaritan and WHY do you think all the other "good Jews" refused to help or touch the victim?

Just a few things to think about.

If you'd like to kick these ideas around some more, just post a response.

Sounds like the beginning of repentance and not just an "I'm sorry".

There is none but God who is good. Believing otherwise is just the sort of self-deception that Satan loves to use to get people to buy into His primary lie...."God didn't REALLY mean what He said, did He?"

If God IS Truth, and speaks truthfully, what you think Satan is saying about God, that we seem to so readily accept as a "better truth?"

"he does forgive but we must also make changes."

Positive changes from a truly repentant and changed heart are good. Just don't confuse this with some sort of need for you to do something to "earn" God's forgiveness rather than as a response from a grateful heart for already BEING forgiven.

God bless.

Maybe not the BEST example but the point I'm trying to make is how can God forgive our sin if we keep living in it? Are you saying that it was adultery only the first time we crossed the line or EVERY time we engage in sex?


Repentance and a change in their life.



Did God give them a son or did they selfishly go out and make this kid themselves under sin? If I go and sleep with a prostitute and she gets pregnant, is it God thats blessing us with a child?


Not sure what this has to do with my issue. The Sadducees were asking about who's wife she would be in heaven and Jesus told them there is no marriage in heaven.


Yes, I am married, married in sin. The Bible also speaks of marriage that should not happen, like the marriage between a mother and son, uncle and niece, same sex marriage, marriage to another mans wife. So if I can still find blessing in Gods eyes by staying in this marriage, so can the others? I'm not trying to be condescending, but these are the thoughts and ideas that are running through my mind.


Love your neighbor as yourself.

And why the others did not help or touch the victim could have been for a number of reasons. They did not love their neighbor, they viewed him as unclean or were sickened by his physical appearance. The Bible doesnt say, Jesus simply ended the story by saying go and do like the one who showed mercy.

Always remember that the story of David is not really applicable here as Uriah was killed. I KNOW that based on the law, David should have been killed...that was the law. I also KNOW that had Uriah not been murdered, David would NOT have been raising a child nor would he have been married to his rape victim.

If you are convicted to do something, you should do it.

medc - the child David fathered when he committed adultery with Bathsheba did not live. David mourned constantly for that child after it was born - then it died.

2 Samuel 12 (New International Version)

1 The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him."

5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."

7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'

11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "

13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."
Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, [a] the son born to you will die."

15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate."

19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked.
"Yes," they replied, "he is dead."

20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

21 His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"

22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

24 Then David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and he went to her and lay with her. She gave birth to a son, and they named him Solomon. The LORD loved him; 25 and because the LORD loved him, he sent word through Nathan the prophet to name him Jedidiah. [b].................

______________________________________________________________

There were several things that went wrong in this story.....David was supposed to be out in the field with his troops but he had chosen to remain at home. David committed adultery. David had a man killed. David was not penitent. David thought the rich man should repay the poor man 4 times what he had stolen - and David had a number of sons to die.

According to the laws, the commander of troops could not lay with his wife while his troops were in the field. Therefore, Uriah did not go to his wife and sleep with her. Had he not been killed, he would have found out his wife had been with another man. His observance of the law thwarted David's plan to have him deceived.

I don't remember bringing up the child. My point about the story is that David would have NEVER married her had Uriah still been alive. It was brought up in this discussion even though I think it has no utility here. I am very familiar with the story.

According to the rabbi I recently heard deliver a lesson on this very incident, Uriah could not sleep with his wife - it was against the law for him to have done so. He WOULD HAVE KNOWN his wife had been with someone else.

I was responding to another post. I didn't bring the child into this discussion....hence my comment. I understand the confusion though. I was responding to the poster that brought up Solomon.

David had other wives. He would have been raising children....or the wives would have.

I have never heard that Uriah was doing this based on the law. I have seen nothing that supports that. I would be curious as to the reference.

Hebrew law....talk to a rabbi

he would not have been raising Solomon though and that is the child that was brought into the discussion.

As for the personality type stuff....I think it's a load of prca.

nah, I'll stick to the Bible. Thanks.

As a Christian, I know that Jesus was Jewish. So was David. So was Uriah. And, I know that the Hebrew law plays a large roll in the Old Testament and I bet you a dollar, you place a lot of importance in the OT.

BTW, I suppose you have studied carefully the Hebrew law contained in your Bible - unless you have never read the Old Testament.

Actually, I am more of a NT guy. As for the law, yes, I am familiar that they were Jewish. Inasmuch, you would think that if Uriah was FORBIDDEN by law to go to his wife, they would have mentioned that....instead of making it a matter of honor for him. Also, since he was told by his king that going home was okay, I am pretty sure that would have given him a free pass to do so regardless of the law.

At our church we regularly have pastors/rabbi's and other denominations speak. I would also like to tell you that I spent 4 years in a synagogue as an employee (albeit during my high school years). I have a great appreciation for their faith.

As for my ignorance...your opinion of me is really none of my business.

BTW...Happy New Year.

I'm not Jewish. But, I owe my live and salvation to a Jewish man who taught about love and mercy.

I know. The smiley face showed I was being funny!
No coffee yet today Cinder?



Good for you. Me too.

**edit**

Well, thanks. And don't worry about hurting me. I am comfortable enough with me to not be impacted too much by the opinions of one I don't know.

I am wrong frequently...and will say so. It just doesn't happen much when I have time to reflect on things...and write them down. I suggest that if I turn you off so much (and I wasn't trying to turn you on...lol) that you make use of the ignore feature.

I can't say I feel that way about you as I have not really formed an opinion one way or another. I just read the posts that are written and respond. Only a few posters here have ever gotten under my skin enough to where I don't really hear or care about what they write...I dismiss it out of turn because of who they are.

I would be interested in the Uriah stuff. As I said though, David obviously gave him a free pass and as a king had the authority to do. Uriah used his honor to keep him at his masters door.

That makes no sense to me. You had just stated that you were Christian...I offered you a Happy New Year from the Jewish Calendar and then put on a laugh emoticon.

I don't see how that could be considered "one upping you." But okay.

BTW, the Jewish law in question is that before a man leaves for war he divorces his wife....in case he is killed during the war, so she can remarry. But the Bible is clear that she is the wife of Uriah...and not divorced. David inquired about her before summoning her...and yet he still slept with her after finding out she was indeed Uriah's wife. If Uriah had followed Jewish law, he could NOT have slept with her until she was once again his wife. Obviously, based on the words in Samuel 11:3, this was not an issue so he could sleep with her. Instead, he chose to stay outside his masters door.

Is there another law that is being called into question?

So far, that's what I have. Getting this stuff from some Jewish MBers

My understanding is that they actually divorced and would remarry after the war(men that went to war...NOT Uriah though). As she was called his WIFE in SM 11:3, this obviously never took place. I believe that is why David inquired about her....yet, he still eventually summoned her to him. If there was a divorce, as stipulated by the law at the time, it would not have been adultery (merely fornication).

My pastor speaks to this...I will attempt to find you a link as his sermons are all available online.

I don't know if Jews consider the Bible (OT) to be infallible and the "inspired" word of God. If they do not, as in the case with the Rabbi in question here, they could rely on word, laws and customs of the day to explain certain things. When I said I would rely on the Bible, it was not meant to dismiss other knowledge, it was a recognition that others may not see the Word as being the definitive source of information. When i see the word "wife" I KNOW that Uriah had not followed the law/custom of the time.

make sense?

This quote is from a Jewish site...askmoses.com

This cannot be correct since the BIBLE clearly says it was Uriah's WIFE.

The BIBLE does not place quotation marks around the word WIFE. It is used several times and it is not ambiguous....am I missing something that is ACTUALLY WRITTEN in the Bible?

Not according to all religions, he's not.

I haven't heard of them "divorcing" their wives before going to war and "remarrying them" after they came back. I thought David had him SENT to war, and he had his eye on her when she was still another man's wife. At any rate, his consequences were hard, and and it was later that he was "a man after God's own heart"...he did not divorce Bathsheba.

another personal attack. I addressed the issue. Can you argue the points?

On another scale, I think you are a ****EDIT****

thanks for editing your post....from their email to your keyboard. Very good.

that was disrespectful

Please keep it respectful and on topic without the personal attacks.

Thanks..

I think that the account of David and Bathsheba is a little OT here: This is example is description of a situation and not prescription of Law.

Neak pretty much hits the nail where she quotes Mark 10:12 and Luke 16:18. Namely, marriage to an UNLAWFULLY divorced woman is continuation of adultery.

I am pretty interested in how these ramifications play out.

So, Tc99, there it is. Whatcha gonna do???



PS. There are cases for lawful divorce but your sitch isn't one of them.

http://www.naturally-healthy-lifestyle.com/TCBH.html

http://www.acronymfinder.com/TCBH.html


I guess some of you don't have young kids huh?

good post

http://www.case-studies.com/biblestudies/david1.htm

Those 2 verses dont answer my questions whatsoever.

If anything theyre telling me that I'm continuing to commit adultery as long as I'm married to my wife.


Please explain YOUR interpretation of these 2 verses.

[/quote]

If anything theyre telling me that I'm continuing to commit adultery as long as I'm married to my wife.

[/quote]


Bingo!

Look! I don't write Scripture. The one thing that I have proved to myself though is that His way is better than mine.

By all means contact your pastor for clarification.

Tc, there is one other piece of information you might need: the sin against the Holy Spirit, the only one that is not forgiven. According to the Catholic Church this is the definition:


I think you are repenting but you would have to speak to some pastor about the next steps...

Many pastors will tell you you're fine married to your wife. Precious few will uphold the clear Word, and say as long as you're "sorry" it's no longer adultery.

Talk to a pastor, sure, but the standard you need to hold to is the Bible, and not what me, anyone here, or any pastor thinks.

Tc,

You will get conflicting information from people. Some will give you scripture to back it up. The thing is, does the scripture they use to back it up, fall in line with all other scripture.

An example might be...

1Corinthians 7:15
15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.

Your wife was an unbeliever when she wanted to leave her M right? So according to this scripture, if her ex let her go then she was lawfully divorced according to this scripture.

Don't just listen to people that give scripture to support their POV. Their POV should be supported by all scripture. I've seen people use scripture to justify divorces to enter ministry, to have affairs, even to kill someone. The thing is, Scripture will always support itself. And God never changes. He won't say one thing one time and then change his mind later or say something different later.

Take all the scripture people are giving you and see how it can all fit together supporting itself. You may have to think out of the box a bit.

Then look at the advice you are being given. But by that time you will already know and won't need the opinion of others.


BTW - Scripture calls Bathsheba Uriah's wife in 2 Samuel 12:15. But after the baby died, she is called David's wife in verse 24. Something must have happened to change it and it wasn't David divorcing Bathsheba and it wasn't the death of Uriah cause he was dead when she was called "Uriah's wife".

Food for thought.

Blessings.

S&C

This is so true. If the WW's husband was a believer and she was not, and she left him - the implication being because of his beliefs - the BELIEVING man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. So the WW's BH would not be under bondage if this was the case.

You may notice the prohibitions against marrying and divorce with infidelity did not say "for believers only", like the above quote. They were God's ideal plan for all.

John the Baptist didn't ask Herodias whether her BH had been a believer, and oh in that case it's ok for her to be with Herod after all. "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife."

But I agree completely - Tc needs to keep on taking an honest look at all the scripture, and see how it all fits together. He seems to be doing that, and no matter what he chooses I respect that he was willing to make this examination.

Not everyone is so willing to have their emotional colonoscopy done so publically on the world wide web, covered only with a thin paper dress for a bit of privacy, as complete strangers poke and probe some very secret and private parts, in the interest of an accurate diagnosis and beneficial advice. Lots of people can't take it. Some, like Neak's dad, can take it briefly but only to a point and then it all goes away. You are very brave to take this question on. If you are sincere in your desire to please God, He Personally will lead you through the marital minefields and bring you safely just where He wants you to be.

Here is where David and Bathsheba got "married".


Read carefully the scolding Nathan brought in the next chapter. It was not just about murdering Uriah, but about taking his wife.

Nathan referred to the NUMEROUS women David had already married as his "wives", in the same set of verses where Bathsheba is referred to as both Uriah's wife and David's wife. Just because they are called wives, does that mean God approves of polygamy? If not, then that logic can't be used to say that God approved of Bathsheba being David's bajillionth wife, either.

Not an exhaustive list:
1. Michal - 1 Samuel 18:27
2. Abigail - 1 Sam. 25:39
3. Ahinoam - 1 Sam. 27:3
4. Eglah - 2 Sam. 3:5
5. Bathsheba - 2 Sam. 11:27
6. Unknown number of other wives - 1 Chronicles 14:3
7. Haggith - 1 Kings 1:5-6 (This does not specify that she is a wife, but only the son of a chief wife would have dared to try and wrestle the throne away from Solomon, especially while David still lived.)

What an appalling list! That is not counting any of the concubines. Bathsheba was one "wife" among many, not a stellar example of God blessing an adulterous marriage. Why does no one jump on the bandwagon for Eglah? If Bathsheba was a rightful wife in God's eyes, then so was she. And if they're all rightful wives, then it doesn't matter how much any of us commit adultery as long as we eventually get married and are sorry. And it doesn't matter how many people we marry at once.

Can't have it both ways.

In spite of the choices of his parents, God loved Solomon, and didn't hold their sins against him. He is not proof that God approves of polygamy or adultery, only that the circumstances of our birth don't determine our value to God.

Dad had a colonoscopy?
:MrEEk:

I was just reading my post and realized how vain this sounds. I would correct this and say that God graciously revealed to me that His way is better than mine.

I must tell you that this revelation came through walking the wrong way.

Which law did Herod break? And where is the supporting scripture for that conclusion? Philip could have been sitting in jail or never even divorced from Herodias. We cannot speculate and apply whatever opinion we want.

Also...

Does Scripture say what the reason needed to be for a non-believer to leave? It seems to just say "if the non-believer leaves, let him do so".

More food for thought.

S&C

Tc99m - Another poster wrote, "It is used several times and it is not ambiguous....am I missing something that is ACTUALLY WRITTEN in the Bible?"

That really IS "the point," don't you think?

While others may want to explore some tangential issues, and that is fine, I'd like to stay "on point" with you in the context of YOUR marriage and your thoughts about ending yet another marriage.


When I said earlier, And please, don't forget that you ARE married, regardless of how the marriage began another member responded sarcastically, " Not according to all religions, he's not."

This really IS an issue in the comments and advice you have been receiving. In YOUR case, it does not matter what ANY other "religion" might think because you are a self-professing Christian, in a relationship with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, the Triune God, not any other "faith system."

So the issue, as it was with David (with all due respect to those who may have found the reference to David, Bathsheba, Solomon, etc., irrelevant), is that SIN is the issue with God. God establishes the PENALTY for sin and it is not established by man or by any "religions faith system."

God is the Judge and God CAN "commute" any sentence or enforce any penalty that HE chooses in His sovereign right as Lord and God of ALL.

In David's case, David committed adultery regardless of whether or not Bathsheba was "divorced." DAVID was married and despite the "human engineered" right to have multiple wives, Jesus made it very clear (as was pointed out in the opening sentence) that "from the beginning it was not so." God ALWAYS intended marriage to be between one man and one woman, for life. So far as we know, that WAS true for Adam and Eve, despite the fact that they DID sin (which is what disobedience to God IS). We could go into some similarities between Adam and Eve's sin and David and Bathsheba's sin AND God's forgiveness and the ongoing consequences of sin, but let's save that for another time when you might want to explore that issue. For now, let's stay focused on YOUR MARRIAGE and, as you say, that it began "in sin."


So let's talk briefly about God the Holy Spirit. If you are Christian, truly a Christian in fact and not just by appropriation of the word "Christian," then you KNOW that the truth of God is that God the Holy Spirit INDWELLS you and your wife (assuming she also is a Christian). God DOES NOT "take up residence" with anyone who is NOT a "True Christian," nor does any sin that any believer commits AFTER being saved result it the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit and a "re-condemnation" of your spirit (a loss of your salvation).

So what IS "salvation" in Christ? Is it "conditional" upon anything that you do to "keep" your salvation? Is it "By Grace" or is it "by works" that YOU gain merit and favor with God SO THAT He will forgive you and KEEP you as one of His children? Was Jesus' payment for ALL sins for all who believe in Him AS Lord and Savior "insufficient"? Is Jesus "unable" to "keep all that the Father has given Him," or CAN someone else "snatch a saved believer out of Jesus' hand"?


Has your salvation been "sealed" by the indwelling Holy Spirit, promised by Jesus to ALL who truly believe in Him, or has it NOT been "sealed?"

Tc99m, you seem (to me) to be playing "mind games" with your marriage and looking for ways to "justify" divorcing your wife "because she no longer pleases you," in much the same manner as was "Jewish Law" in Jesus' time. THAT was the "point" of my previous mentioning of Jesus' confrontation with the Pharisees and their questioning of Him concerning divorce.

The "point" of the previous example of the seven brothers and Jesus' answer about "no marrying or giving in marriage" in heaven is that God established marriage for humans ON EARTH and for very specific reasons that were enumerated in Genesis. Marriage IS a "human activity" that was established and ordained BY God for the purposes that God established, not for what man tries to twist it into in his "sin-nature." We are (as sinners still struggling with our sin-nature) VERY good at trying to find "justifications" and "rationalizations" for our behaviors. It would be my contention that MOST of those justifications and rationalizations are chosen simply to ALLOW OURSELVES the ability to DO whatever we WANT to do, regardless of what anyone, including God Himself, might think or say about our "choices." We ARE our own greatest "enablers" when we "want something." Temptation. Sin. Committing one sin to "correct" a previous sin. Etc., etc., etc.


So what IS the "written word" that you might want to consider while you are thinking about all of your "reasons" why you want to divorce your wife rather than rebuild a Godly marriage with her? "and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth." (Pr 5:18b, NIV)

That Proverbs 5 passage is from a chapter warning against adultery. Many of the warnings in that chapter seem to be what you are facing now and struggling with. Yet they are NOT warnings about being MARRIED to an adulteress, they are warnings to NOT commit adultery when you are married. CAN you still have some of the problems associated with adultery after you are IN a marriage that resulted after adultery was committed? Of course, as the example of David, earlier mentioned, shows. FORGIVEN does NOT also mean that all consequences of the previous sin are necessarily removed. AS in David's case, he remained forgiven of the sin, the penalty of DEATH was commuted BY God, but other consequences were to remain for the rest of David's life. That WAS NOT a "justification" for David to divorce Bathsheba to "set the record straight." God did NOT demand that David divorce Bathsheba, but God did take the child that resulted from their adultery out of this world, and later allowed David to have Solomon (both the wisest human and the most self-indulgent human, imho). As an aside, it sort of shows the "limits" of "human wisdom," don't you think?


So let's talk briefly about this "human wisdom" as it pertains to you and your marriage. Another member posted the following, to which you responded:

"Neak pretty much hits the nail where she quotes Mark 10:12 and Luke 16:18. Namely, marriage to an UNLAWFULLY divorced woman is continuation of adultery.

I am pretty interested in how these ramifications play out.

So, Tc99, there it is. Whatcha gonna do???

PS. There are cases for lawful divorce but your sitch isn't one of them."


Your response:
"Those 2 verses dont answer my questions whatsoever.

If anything theyre telling me that I'm continuing to commit adultery as long as I'm married to my wife.


Please explain YOUR interpretation of these 2 verses."


I will leave it up to the member who posted that response to give you HIS interpretation as He intended it (which he seems to have done with the statement, "Bingo!)
," but I will give you my interpretation of the use of those passages and their potential application to YOUR marriage as "one possible view to consider."

There are several "issues" here.

1. The original commission of adultery/fornication.

2. The divorce by your wife of her former husband, NOT because HE committed adultery.

3. The marriage of you and your wife AS a legitimate marriage in the eyes of God.

4. The current "feeling" that you should divorce your wife and your search for justifications for acting on those feelings.

5. The notion that "adultery" can be committed between a husband and a wife, thereby resulting in a "continuation of adultery as long as you are married to him/her."


Points 1 and 2 are clearly sins.

Point 3 DID result in further adultery when you married per the verses that were cited. In addition, those verses also clearly state that a MARRIAGE was established that began with the commission of a sin (and please also remember that "sin" is a theological concept, not a "human invention" that is equivalent to what is euphemistically called a "wrong choice"). Regardless of the presence of sinful behavior, a MARRIAGE, according to definition of God, WAS established (just as it was in David's case).

Point 4 is the germination of all sin through temptation TO commit a sin in order to gratify some desire or want that a person has. It is NOT the "thought" that counts, but it is the "action" that counts, if you will.

Point 5 is the "area of contention" between many members on MB and is the basis of YOUR attempt to justify and rationalize the "putting away of your wife." I, like many others, base MY opinion on what the Word of God says in it's totality, not in any specific verse or verses taken out of context of the whole of Scripture. That was also Jesus' "point" to the Pharisees and to others the many times He referred to Scripture and the HEART of Scripture is the "forgiveness of sin" for all who accept Jesus Christ AS their personal Lord and Savior. It is about forgiveness of sin, not condemnation of sinners. It is about complete forgiveness BY God, NOT because of what WE do or don't do, but because of what Christ DID on our behalf.


You have heard of the term "affairage" that was coined by another member of MB who is an admitted atheist and "former Christian." Encapsulated in that term is the idea that the marriage is NOT "legitimate" and that adultery continues to be committed in such a marriage and that the "only" remedy is to Divorce. Several MB members embrace and/or support this viewpoint, given by an atheist, even though they also claim to be Christians themselves. For the record, since you don't know me, I have always rejected the idea of an "affairage" that rendered the marriage "not legitimate" and that results in a continuation of adultery beyond the original act of adultery. The reason for my position is contained in my understanding of what "forgiven by God" really means and whether or not it is total forgiveness of sin or not.

Without going too far "a-field" right now, let me just offer you a verse of Scripture that DOES speak to this issue of sin versus God's forgiveness of sin for you to consider as you think about YOUR marriage:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NIV, emphasis added)


Tc99m, ARE you and your wife born again believers? If you are, then let me ask another question. If the "people" did not understand at first what Jesus meant when He said that "you must be born again," and they thought that you had to somehow get back inside the womb and be PHYSICALLY born again, why is that so many believers today don't seem to understand what being "born of the spirit" means and want to posit that certain "sins" result in the loss of one's salvation and that such a person must somehow crawl back into the "womb" of un-forgiveness and then be "born again, and born again, and born again, and born again," ad infinitum for any so-called "mortal sins?"

Tc99m, you and I ARE sinners by nature who DO continue to commit sins even AFTER we have been saved through Christ. We ALL struggle and contend with sin our entire lives. BUT there is a "big difference" in two vital areas that people "contend with" when it comes to this issue of sin and forgiveness of sin.

First, those who do NOT have Christ in their lives are ALREADY condemned by God and stand as unforgiven sinners for all sins in their lives. Second, those who DO have Christ in their lives are already forgiven for all of their sins, not just some of their sins.

"Create in me a new heart" does NOT mean that "instantaneously" a Christian is incapable of any present or future sins. It simply means that that Holy Spirit WILL convict us of our sin and bring us to repentance of those sins as part of the process of "sanctification," of conforming our lives to one of more and more "Christ-likeness" as we move from "infants in Christ" to "maturity in Christ." It IS a life-long process.

So, your marriage "isn't what you'd like it to be." What is your response, Christian, to HOW to have a marriage that honors and glorifies God? Is it divorce or is it obedience to God's commands concerning marriage, regardless of what you might be "feeling?"


God bless.

It only says the believer is free. It says nothing about the unbeliever. This verse is not a free pass to commit adultery.

And as far as Jesus "washing" sin so that it is no longer sin, the Bible paints a different picture of it.

Hi again Tc99

I have consulted a friend whom I consider to be wise. He could not give me a definitive answer based in Scripture at this time. We also discussed points that Foreverhers raised.

His thoughts are as follows:

1. Be separate within the household and especially sexual union until clarity is obtained. The rationale being - When in doubt...don't.
2. Pray and fast that you may purify yourselves.
3. Pray for guidance of the Holy Spirit while examining Scripture.
4. Request the prayers of support from others here and at home.

He further shared with me that it is a trend amongst people to look for an answer that most closely aligns with our personal convictions. I share this thought with you that you factor this into your thinking.

I will continue research into this matter. God bless you for acknowledging the Lord.

Was Herodias divorced from Philip? Bible doesn't say. Herod seems like the type of person that might just take what he wants without regard for "Christian/Jewish" law.

If he just took Herodias for his wife of course it would be unlawful. If she was legally divorced, John the Baptist would never have made such a statement.

Paul's letter to the Romans and the Corinthians were letters to Christians believers. He's telling believers these things. Are non-Christians bound to adhere to Christian teachings? Scripture needs to be kept in context.

Tc! Was your wife a Christian when she was divorced? Was your wife bound by Christian teachings if she wasn't a Christian? Is she a Christian now? Is she (and are you) bound by Christian teachings now?

Are you married now? Does God still hate divorce?

These questions I ask are not to get you to see a particular POV. They are to get you to dig into the Scripture yourself, be guided by the Holy Spirit and not take someone else's word for what they believe. I do not want you to take my word for it either. That is why I am mostly asking you questions about the scripture and trying not to give you my interpretation them.

What do you do with scripture that doesn't support a particular POV? You dig deeper, and reconcile it with God not us.

Blessings.

S&C

Not sure what this statement was in reference to but "sin is sin" and there are only two "types" of sin, those which are forgiven by God and those which are not forgiven by God. There IS a third type of sin that is "unforgiveable," in that God has imposed a rule upon Himself whereby He will not forgive that particular sin (thankfully there is only one such sin). But the third type of sin is not what it seems is being referenced in this statement.

For those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they are "washed," as in "their sins are covered by the blood of Christ who PAID the full penalty required by God the Father for all sins of a believer. When God "looks at" a believer, He does not "see" the sinner with sins remaining, He sees Christ and Christ alone, whose righteousness is imputed to all believers.

Little update.



My wife and I attend a very large local church which offers help for just about any need you can think of, including marriage counseling. I got in touch with the director of marriage counseling and spent some time with her explaining my situation. She told me not to focus on this issue but to start working on my marriage, to which I told her that I can accept that but how do I know that we're not continuing our sin. She said she couldnt not answer that and did not know the answer.

So I'm still married and still struggling over the issue of knowingly breaking up a marriage, stealing another mans wife and then asking God to forgive me.

Its come to a point where when I even think of us ever being intimate in the future, I now feel like she is still someone elses.

Hi there again Tc

I'm glad that you are still here.

I said that I would get more qualified folk to give input. You certainly have caused quite a buzz.

At this time wheels have been set in motion that our presiding bishop of CESA (Church of England in South Africa)post an answer to this thread directly. He has written books on the subject of marriage and divorce which makes him an excellent candidate to reply to you.

I will keep posting. Don't go away.

Okay, 99, you won't like this, but here is an analysis of what YOU REALLY said. Your words are in black. What you mean and/or my analysis - in red.

Let's hear it for real.

Sorry, but the 'Bus had to come out for this one.

*******************************
Our marriage has been in trouble for a long time now, its not that just now I decided to start thinking of a divorce.
Not really "in trouble for a long time". It feels like a long time, but recently I have felt like I'm not "in love" anymore, and this has become kind of stale and more like work than that fantasy I used to have. Now, there appears to be a new possible person on the horizon, and I'm thinking, hey, maybe there is something more for me out there. More than what I have, and this whole thing hasn't been right...for a long time...


Throughout our entire marriage (right from the beginning) this has NOT happened from the beginning - you have rewritten your marital history to attempt to justify your current decision making efforts, and to color the opinions of others in your direction

my wife out of guilt for marrying me you wish to believe it was out of guilt. Sorry to inform you, but it was not GUILT - it was the harsh smack of REALITY slapping her upside the head when that fantasy bubble burst and she realized she should never have left the TRUE LOVE OF HER LIFE FOR YOU - and her TRUE love was her husband.

would tell me things like " my ex treated me better", "my ex spent more money on me", "I made a mistake marrying you", "youre not the man for me", "I'm now being punished because of our adultery", You BELIEVE you are trying to tell us these things in an attempt to show us that your wife has said terrible things to you. Instead, these things are not terrible, but probably the TRUTH - and she should have recognized her mistake and undone it years ago. Instead, her pride (and YOURS) led you both to continue to attempt to prove to other people that your AFFAIR was TRUE LOVE, and despite what they told you, it would not die away. Note to self, it Was NOT TRUE LOVE, IT DIED. You are typing these things here not because they will convince us that your wife is terrible, but because somehow you know this is all true. Scary, isn't it.

These things and worse I've endured hearing almost on a weekly basis. Yes. You probably have. From both the voice coming from your wife, and the voices in your own head, telling you she was RIGHT. Only you ignored them, because you had to prove something....that you made the right choice? That you were right? That this was the right thing to do? That these "feelings" could not be wrong, that this "LUV" you felt and dishonored yourself for had to be the right thing? Yes, that's it. You did think those things. You tell me here that you did.

About two years ago I really started losing feelings for her because of these things being said over and over well, that, and the fact that the fantasy just wasn't there anymore - it never came to life - it wasn't REAL ,

I sat her down MANY times and told her that she's slowly killing my love for her but she never took notice of my warnings. Because she brought with her the EXACT SAME problems with her from her first marriage. You knew that when the problems started, that maybe the issues in her marriage weren't the ExHusband....she was the one cheating, after all, and now......well.....look at how she was treating you. That fantasy she promised you

and you promised her

wellllllllll - poof! Never really was. Stinks, that reality thing.

Beginning of this summer I told her that I cant go on like this if I have to hear these things constantly, she again didnt care and continued saying them until about 3 months ago when I told her we should split. Finally then it hit it and she has not said anything painful since. At the same time my feelings were no longer and I told her I needed time to decide what we're going to do. Not surprising, as by this time, the problems had gone on too long without being addressed. That isn't a surprise to many of us here, because we are familiar with how affairs play out - because the fact of the matter is that people in affairs are NOT in it for the reasons one might think. They are in it for THEMSELVES - and marriages, well, they don't much work when there are two selfish people involved.

So, you had lost your fantasy, and she lost hers. Too many love-busters, two selfish people. So you decide that maybe that grass out there looks a little greener. Probably is greener. After all, there are many other fish in the sea, and this one, well, there might be a legit reason to leave. But now you are a Christian, and you know about marriage, have more respect for it, and that you can't just "leave" without any reason. Only now, you are trying to justify it by trying to look at it like this goes wayyy back.

Didn't it? Hasn't it been terrible from the beginning? Oh yeah, right. We got married WRONG. That's it. That will work.

----Reality check. The reason you are posting here, and asking the question, is that YOU KNOW THIS IS NOT THE TRUTH. I know this from your posts, and you are betraying yourself again. Stop yourself.




So for the last 3 months we've kind of kept our distance from each other because I needed time to see how I still felt about her. Let's see, I need time away to figure out how I feel. Right out of the wayward spouse playbook. Anybody see this in here??????? Helloooooo!!!!! Here it is!!!! Wave, WS playbook statement!!!!!


I've been praying and telling God that I do not want a divorce but at the same time I do not want to stay married to someone that I have no feelings for and for God to give me back those feelings if he wants us to stay together.
Oh, so NOW you start praying. Not at the start of the marriage. Not when you were in the affair. Not when things were getting rough.

Now, when you WANT OUT. Now you expect to sit passively by and "blame God" for your reasoning to separate?????? Because you hear......

Those feelings have not been coming back but instead I kept hearing a voice saying I will not bless this marriage because of your sins.
voices?????? Telling you that the marriage is bad because it is an affairage.


This has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that you started losing your love. Nothing to do with the fact that you both admit that your fantasy bubble burst. Nothing to do with the fact that YOU LEFT THE HOUSE??????? And nothing to do with the fact that the two of you have not tried anything whatsoever besides throwing your hands up and saying, "Oh well. God must not want us to be married, because we started out wrong." I think from much of what you have written that it has MUCH more to do with the fact that you are either in an affair, or have found someone you WANT TO EXPLORE A RELATIONSHIP WITH. But that you need to be divorced to do it. So which is it?


I started reading different Christian marriage books along with studying the Bible and the same message keeps echoing, even last weekend my wife and I were watching a Christian program on TV and the same message. So now the TV is telling you the right thing to do is divorce. Gee. That's telling us you have all the more reason to "follow your heart".

My wife does NOT want to get divorced but totally agrees that our marriage is most likely doomed and will not be blessed. Interesting. She WANTS TO STAY MARRIED. I think you give me some very important information here. I would submit to you that this has more to do with the fact that you are lying to her about another woman than it has to do with anything else. If she knew about your fantasizing about a life without her, then maybe the two of you could work this out. Ya' think?

We have already spoken about contacting her ex and both agree on trying to ask for forgiveness from him, we just have to find out where he lives because he most likely moved out of state. It might be very nice of you to send him an apology. It does not mean you should divorce. And it does not absolve you, either.

There is no other woman and I am not using God as a way out. Oh, I believe wholeheartedly that there is another woman in your heart. You just haven't gone there, YET. But she is there...... It is simply the build up from a bad marriage that God never wanted to take place and it has taken this long for things to come to this. Sorry, no sale.



Yes, I'm rough.

I have to be when I see someone lying to themselves, either knowingly or not.

You are asking the question because you know God abhors divorce.

And you feel trapped.

Sorry. You chose.


The good news is that you CAN fix your marriage. It is NOT fixed by being separated from your wife. It is not fixed by fantasizing about greener grass. It IS fixed by getting back to basics, looking at the emotional needs of one another, stopping the love-busting, and getting back on the track of focusing on what you can do to make the marriage work.

So far, you have only looked for a reason to get out. I'm not so sure that is the right plan.


SB

Great post SB - you nailed it as usual.

TC,

You have been given a lot of information, opinions and advice.

Here's mine:

1. For the one who broke the marriage vow. She is the adulterer. To get to that point she had to be a WS.

2. The sin/error committed was against the BS (her 1st H).

3. It is her 1st H that SHE needs to ask forgiveness.

4. The choice to forgive is his.

5. If her 1st H has moved forward and married another, then technically he has released her from her 1st marriage. So what is his status?

6. As for you asking his forgiveness, if that is what your conscience moves you to do, then write him a letter.

The above addresses the past.

Now to move onto the present:

A. You BOTH need to reestablish your R with God. Yes, he hates a divorce and adultery. He also knows how to help people who make bad choices when they were weak. It's called extending mercy and forgiveness.

B. Dwelling on the past is not healthy for your M and her 1st H. You can't have a good R with God if you both hold onto guilt.

C. If you have not found a good MC, then call Dr. Harley.

D. Yes you have the option of making another D or rescuing your M. That s/b a joint decision by you and your W. If one of you can't participate, then the burden does fall harder on the other and that one needs to decide.

E. You also both need to forgive each other and move forward.

The damage of the adultery has already been done. Your continued guilt will prevent you and your family from moving forward.

Instead, go ask for your individual forgiveness and move forward. Do NOT use the adultery as an excuse going forward.

The stolen car analogy doesn't fit exactly. Instead I see it as a bad injury that needs to be fixed. Set things correctly in all areas and move forward. Be balanced!

Ready to work on a recovery plan?

JMHO,
L.

Once again, there is absolutely no other woman in my life nor on the horizon, sorry but your gut feeling is absolutely wrong.

We've both been unhappy with the marriage for the past 2 years, for the last 2 years I've been looking online at places to rent because I kept thinking that eventually it would lead to it so I just kept wanting to see what was out there. By her own admission, my wife agrees that we've been more roommates than a married couple for 2 years.

We probably should have seeked counseling sooner but it really wasnt until now that I've started directly praying for my marriage and wisdom.

I have absolutely no reason to lie about anything here, I'm being as honest with everything as possible. If you choose not to believe me and instead turn my words around then dont even bother posting saying I'm a liar.

Hi there Tc
I would have liked for the bishop to contact you direct. But anyway, here is the deal:

Your wife is reborn and therefore a new creature. Your marriage IS recognized before God.

Obviously he feels condemned before God about this. Ignoring his conscience isn't the answer.

The "deal" is that he is in an adulterous relationship and many here believe it is NOT recognised by God.

Tc99m - hmmmm...it seems to me that I left you a previous post, of some length and thought, that you haven't even bothered to acknowledge, let alone respond to any part of it.

So just WHAT DO YOU want to know?

I have tried to talk to you about your struggle with being a believer, with your wife's having become a believer AFTER your affair and marriage, and your current thoughts and feelings about your marriage. But you don't respond.

A "one-sided" conversation is not very helpful and it IS a waste of my time to try to help where that help does not seem to be recognized, let alone discussed.

In addition, a "conversation" that takes days and weeks for YOU to post anything, leads to a thread like this with LOTS of members talking to other members, but NOT to you or with you.

If you truly want some opinions and potentially some help, then POST REGULARLY. People are NOT just sitting around waiting for you whenever you decide to post something. They have their own lives and they have many others on MB to spend what time they have talking with.





Okay, Tc99m - Do you REALLY want some answers to these questions and thoughts, or not?

I suspect that this issue is involved with the denomination that you attend, but if I am right, it explains a LOT about their idea of 'biblical counseling'.

Let me make just one observation, as a fellow believer in Christ. IF your "counselor" could NOT answer that question for you, then that counselor has no business being a "Christian" counselor. That person has NO idea of what salvation and forgiveness of sin MEANS, let alone what the Grace of God means or what recovery after sin means WITH God or without God as a vital part of a marriage.

But THAT is precisely what I have offered to discuss with you. But I WILL NOT "force" such discussion on you. All I will do for now is to tell you that I can answer that question for you. Whether or not you would accept such an answer is a different matter and depends greatly upon your relationship WITH God.

Okay, bigkahuna, then you must have some standard of measure by which it can clearly be said "this marriage IS recognized by God" and "THAT marriage is not recognized by God," since there are clearly only those two options for ALL marriages.

Could you post that immutable standard for us? What makes ANY marriage "recognized by God" or "not recognized by God?"

I'd like to see it and perhaps to discuss it, since as believers we DO want to try to be living IN God's will and not contrary to it.

Thanks.

Sorry Bigkahuna,

This was the very shortened version.

I would still prefer that this post be answered in greater length by the clergy. Please be patient.

Not speaking for BigK but us catholics have standards on what marriages are recognized by God.

But the OP clued me in early they were not catholic.

Where these answered?

99,

Not my gut feeling. Your own words betray you.


The WS playbook contains a script, and somewhere in there your words are scrawled across it......you write them here and we read them. Only you don't even realize that you are heading down the path of the WS. You don't realize that you have the fantasy, because you started this marriage AS A WAYWARD - because your marriage is one that started as an affair.

Your own words tell me that. I don't need to twist them.

See, here's what is really happening to you.

You had an affair with a married woman. She left her husband for you. This affair was a FANTASY relationship, one in which you both thought that you had met a soulmate, a person who was perfect for the other.

Only what was really happening was that this affair began in secrecy. The fantasy of the affair was elevating feelings of love beyond what the reality was - and now that reality is coming into view for you.

Real life with this woman started a couple of years ago. That fantasy that you and she had when the affair was in full bloom died out, and this is what happens in most affairs. They just die out, because most of the feelings that are found within the affair relationship are not sustained - mainly because the situation surrounding the affair once it has the light of day shining upon it are removed and the fantasy of it dwindles. What the two of you had was a dream between the two of you, one in which your relationship was fantasized as though it would play out much differently. Your marriage would be perfect, you would never lose the sexual attraction and passion, you would never treat each other with anything less than caring and excitement, you would always be best friends, you would always find one another new and would always want to explore one another to the depths of the other's soul.

Only what happened was that fantasy bubble burst.


And she carried with her the problems from her first marriage, right into her marriage with you.


Daily life happened.


And what happens to most affairs happened. After about two or three years, it ran its course.


And you found yourself..........not so "in love" anymore.

Wondering about your future. If there is someone else for you that REALLY is your soulmate - because you KNOW this isn't it.

Only, you knew it at first. Your own words betrayed you, 99. Because you said you married her to "do the right thing". One of your own posts said that. Not me twisting your words - your own words. You KNEW it was wrong from the start.

So you can't turn around now and question it. You questioned it then. And you did it anyway - because you were trying to do the right thing, and I'm NOT guessing....your words tell me....PRIDE has lots to do with this. She could not leave her man for you, and then have you leave her - how humiliating - you had to save her pride, and yours.


Only you tell us that you have been feeling this way for two years. So................


why

"NOW"

are you seeking help?


Why did you wait two years?


The issue here is being clouded now by this question you throw out there about God's plan.


Your real question has more to do with what YOU WANT TO DO.

Your statement about what your wife wants - which is to stay married - also tells me that.


Because by telling us what she wants, you tried to not say what you want.

SB

ForeverHers,

The reason why I disappeared for a little while was because I didnt want any outside influences to effect my thinking. I instead just spent time with God to see if I can get a clear answer.

I appreciate the time you put into this, it has not gone unnoticed!

What I'm still struggling with is this, God clearly states which marriages he does not allow, for example, a marriage between a siblings, family members, same sex and adultress marriages. So if the members of the same sex marriage suddenly came to know God, is their marriage still good just like the members in the adultress marriage?

Really dont see why answering these would even matter or change our situation, but to amuse you.

We were both in our mid/late mid 20's.
Met at the gym.
I was not in a relationship.
I did not know the X.

schoolbus,

Why I waited 2 years? Because I was being passive. Tried to ignore the problem. The problem persisted and has grown big enough that something needs to be done about it.


What do I want to do? I want to do what is right in Gods eyes. I want our guilt to go away. When I stand before God I want to know we resolved this situation according to his will.

Understood. And that's a good thing to do when struggling with things, spend some quiet time with the Lord. Then, as you have, come back to discuss things you still are not sure about, with fellow believers. Listen to the "arguments" or "advice" or "interpretations" of each, and compare those to what God has revealed to us in His Word.




Just know that others will try to help you with your questions and ultimately it will be YOU and your wife who will have to consider it all in the context of your relationship WITH God, not with us or with other believers.

If you want to take "time off" and you happen to be in the middle of a discussion, just say so. Everyone KNOWS that "alone time" is a key ingredient in working through difficult issues.




Okay, now you are to what appears to be the "heart" of your struggle. So let's take a little time to begin to consider these issues, not to reach a conclusion of them, but to consider them in light of what God has said in His Word. If it's appropriate, we can even quote or reference specific passages in Scripture from time to time, to avoid a mere "opinion" sort of thing.

First things first. You are correct that God does not allow marriages between siblings, at least not since some time after the Fall. You are correct that God does not allow marriages between family members, i.e. mother-son, father-daughter. You are correct that God does not allow homosexual marriages.

You are incorrect about God not allowing adulterous marriages. Those sorts of marriages are "not good," in so far as all adultery IS a sin, but they are allowed all the time. Adultery is a sin, and all sins should be avoided. That is what God created, a sinless marriage between Adam and Eve (and by the way, there was no one else for them to even be "tempted" by in way of adultery), and "not sinning" is what God wants from all of us. But we DO choose to sin because of the inherent sin-nature in each of us as "fallen" creatures.

God also, for example, tells people who ARE believers that they should not be "unevenly yoked" (married to) to an unbeliever. But God also tells believers how they are to behave as a married person even if they choose to ignore God and marry an unbeliever. Is "ignoring God" and doing what "I want" a sin?

CAN any of our sins be forgiven by God? If they CAN, what must we DO in order to "obligate God" to forgive us of any or all sins? CAN a believer sin AFTER accepting Jesus as his/her personal Lord and Savior? If they can, CAN those "new sins" be forgiven? If they can, what must a believer DO in order for God to forgive not only the "past sins," but the "new sins?" To put it another way, is there ANYTHING that we can do that "justifies" us in the eyes of God so that we merit His forgiveness?

Now, you raised a question wherein you made the assumption that a homosexual marriage and a marriage that began in adultery are the "same." The assumption is invalid because homosexuality is an abomination to God and MARRIAGE is specfically between a Man and a Woman. I know, the secular world doesn't like that fact and is trying hard to get everyone to "think" that marriage means ONLY a "committed relationship" regardless of the sexes of the participants. But that's just more of Satan's old bag of lies, especially the one he started with that "God didn't really mean what He said." Don't believe that for one minute. God meant EXACTLY what He said, and He has NOT "changed His mind."

So what about committing adultery and what about a couple who began a marriage by committing adultery, either as affair partners or by marrying someone who was divorced for some reason other than adultery in their previous marriage (really only applicable to the spouse who had remained faithful anyway)?

The Scripture is CLEAR. IF you commit adultery by marrying someone NOT "released" from a previous marriage by virtue of "maritial unfaithfulness," you are still MARRIED. The operative word in that warning is "if you Marry someone...."

Hence, you ARE married. YES, a sin was committed. So now we are under the issue of how DOES God forgive sins and IS that forgiveness TOTAL or only "partly complete and still requires some 'action' on our part to make it complete?"

What do you think?

I'll stop here and give you time to reflect on those things, think about it some, and offer your responses before going into more discussion.

God bless.

what are you basing this on? Surely not David as Uriah was killed and therefore David marrying Bathsheba does NOT fit this circumstance.

ForeverHers,

I'm under the belief that God forgives fully but something does need to be done here on earth to make it right with him. Otherwise we can just keep doing whatever we want and keep asking for forgiveness.

My wife refuses to try contacting her ex and asking for forgiveness.


God was not pleased with David and Bathsheba and took their firstborn, so a price still had to be paid on earth. I also dont believe they would have married or stayed married if Uriah had not been killed in battle.

Then do everything you can to save your mairrage! Pop out some kids, be a good father, pray for forgivness. You are already in this situation, committing another sin will not concell out you or your wifes erlier sins, it will just be another.

I want the pain that I feel from my wifes adultry to go away. I want the guilt that I feel from not meeting her needs, from not seeing the signs and doing everything I could to stop it from hapening. And most importantly, I want it to have never happened!!!
But you know what?
Just becouse we want somthing, wether we diserve it or not, does not mean we get it.


Then repent for your sin! Ask the ex-husband for forgivness, ask god to forgive your mistake, and try and make your mairrage work.

Notice I didn't say you and your wifes marriage, I said YOUR MARRIAGE. You cannot repent for her, or make up what she has done for her, she has to make her own peace with god.

Then you wife is not trully remorsfull of her adultry, you cannot repent unless you are trully remorsfull, if you dont repent you cant be forgiven....See where I am going with this?

You contact the ex-husband
You apologise to him
You beg him for his forgiveness for your part in the distruction of his marriage.

You do what You can do to repent. You cant make her do anything, and doing somthing else that god hates (divorce) will not wash away your sins.





I just like to have all the information.

Pop out some kids?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??????


Its hard enough to raise kids in a good marriage. Kids are suppose to solve our problems???

I'm sorry but that is some of the worst advice I've been given so far.




In terms of contacting the husband, I've tried doing a search on him and came out empty handed. I know he moved out of state soon after their divorce, then he supposedly returned back home, at this point we have no idea where he is and I dont know any of his friends nor family members.

Negative. I was saying work on your marriage, fix it, then do that if you want. Children will of course not fix anything (and may make things harder). I have simply awlays personally belived the purpose of marriage in gods eyes was to start a familly eventually.

I bet you know someone who does, perhaps someone he was married to?

Yes, but like I already said, she doesnt want to contact him.

And she probably doesn't want you to either. But if you think real hard, I bet you can remember some details about him that she told you. Like his parents and siblings names, where they lived, etc, etc. If you want to find this man, you can do it.

I remember her telling me his parents passed away, he has a brother but I have no idea what his name is. His last name is pretty common so that makes it so much harder to locate. Her sisters also dont know anything about him, since the only info they do have is whatever my wife would tell them.

Honestly, I've invested quite a bit of time on this last week and no luck.