I took my daughter to lunch today and let her play in the play area. That's when the memory hit. A couple months ago my H, DD, and I went to this same place and happened to run into what is now the OW. I didn't know at the time that they were "friends" - he still says that at that point they were only talking (not sure I believe that one). Her boys and my DD were playing together. She climbed up inside the slide where there's a big bubble area to help the kids get through. Well, my H decided to help too and they were in there together laughing and having a grand old time. I'm clausterphobic, so I was stuck outside listening to all this. Why didn't I just get up and walk out then?? Why did I believe that there was nothing going on?? How could I be so blind and stupid?? I am furious with myself for not taking action that day.

We are blind because we don't want to believe that the one person who promised to love and take care of us always would lie and cheat on us and deliberately cause us pain.

I know you're right, it's just not easy to swallow. It makes me so mad and my WH and myself. And the OW - she pretended to be my friend the whole time.

Her H is having a horrible time right now too - this is the second time she's had an A and both times with married men. I don't know how my WH could be so blind to her true character.

No use kicking yourself over and over. We have all been there. My ex conducted his affair right under my nose. I knew something was wrong and talked to him about it. He kept telling me that he was just having a hard time, and to trust him and things would get better.

You need to get your plan going and not worry about being stupid. Now is the time to fight for your marriage.

I've been working on Plan A for about a month now. One day he'll be all about working on us and saying we can make this work. Then for a couple days he's ready to pack up and leave. It's back and forth all the time. Do they all do this? Is it part of the fog?

He still has contact with her - she's calling, texting, and emailing him at least once per day. She always has some problem and apparently he's the only one that can fix it. So far he's told her he can't help her anymore, but he won't change his phone number or block the messages!

One of the "problems" she's called about is whenever she sees me around town, she calls my WH because she's scared I'm after her. Please....she's not worth it.

Have you exposed OW to her family?

HA! That's a good one...when my WH sent her a message saying that he loves his wife and family and won't talk to her ever again, not only did she call and text over and over again, but her DAD called and left messages yelling at my husband! She is a "daddy's girl" and he gives in to whatever she wants.

Her H just filed for divorce. This is after all one of many affairs. Two PA and a couple EA - at least that's what she told him they were.

To leave you and make his HoD happy?

As for your original Q. There were times when my FWH wanted to leave or asked if he should leave but not to go to OW or to resurrect the affair. He never left though. The only time he was gone was when I initially kicked him out.

"One day he'll be all about working on us and saying we can make this work. Then for a couple days he's ready to pack up and leave. It's back and forth all the time. Do they all do this? Is it part of the fog?"

Yes, they all do this. Especially when:

"He still has contact with her - she's calling, texting, and emailing him at least once per day."

Very manipulative, but she seems to have instinctively figured out that he has a high need for "admiration." And her constant pleas to rescue her are filling his love bank to overflowing. He cannot disconnect from the feel-good.

"She always has some problem and apparently he's the only one that can fix it. So far he's told her he can't help her anymore, but he won't change his phone number or block the messages!"

SOOOO, what can YOU do to meet his need for admiration? (Hint: Do NOT pull the kind of stunts she pulls. You can be more creative than that, can't you?)

And her expressing fear of you is just one more way she's asking him to protect her and take care of her. Lord, I want to smack her myself, but she's sure figured out the way into his heart.

Fight fire with fire, your way, drgnfly

LOL! That's awesome! Thank you!

Every day seems to get better with us and he's seeing me the way he used to. He's even started grabbing me as I'm walking by and hugging me like he used to. I guess I just have to create more of those moments, so that's all that fills his head.

I'm going to see if his parents can watch DD this weekend. Maybe we can take a little trip and get away from this town. Might even be able to convince him to shut off his phone so it's "our" time. We can get out and do some of the fun stuff that we used to and maybe try a couple new things.

Guess it's time to turn up the heat.

black_raven,

Yeah, my H found a family of crazies.

He keeps telling me that he never had any intentions of having a long-term R with her. I'm not sure I can believe this though. I desperately want to believe it, but it's hard to trust anything that comes out of his mouth at this time. Especially since the fog hasn't lifted yet.

Don't trust anything he says. Watch what he does.

He really needs to change phone numbers so the OW won't keep contacting him. Your marriage can't recover until he does that. I would do a great, short Plan A and then go to Plan B.

OW and your WH were equally slutty at the time of their adultery decision.

Oh, I know he's had as much to do with it as she did. I just don't understand how he still can't see what she's really like. The fog messing with his judgement?

I have another question: OW has recently changed jobs. She had two affairs with married men at the last job. I'm wondering if I should send an anonymous letter or something warning these new people of her true character. She is so convincing as the victim and people automatically want to help her. I wish my husband and I had listened to some of the people at the old job when they warned me. I just don't want to see her ruin another family. But I guess I can't follow her for the rest of my life to make sure it doesn't happen either. Just wish there was a way to expose her to the public, so nobody else could be hurt by her.

She's damaged three families that I know of. When does the destruction end?? Especially when her dad is okay with whatever she wants. Nobody makes her responsible for her actions. I don't think she even understands why her H is divorcing her! She thinks he's overeacting.

I wouldn't focus on the OW. Instead focus on your hubby.

Is he willing to change his phone number?

This one may be "permanently" fogged out. Dangerous, dangerous woman.

I know this board is all about exposure, but it seems clear that she does not work with your H, so exposing to her company's management would have little impact. Besides, if she were to find herself unemployed, WHO do you think she'd be running to for rescue?

Has H changed his cell phone number, cancelled email accounts she has access to, and dropped any on-line sites like myspace? Do you see ANY signs of continued contact?

Has a NC (No Contact) letter been sent by your H, with your imprimatur? He really needs to do this. I can't tell how far back into the marriage he's moved, but there are some signs you've mentioned.

As he moves back in, you MUST make it clear that there are certain things he must do to address the harm he's done to you and the marriage. Counseling...examining the factors that led him to such a poor decision...expressing remorse..."getting" the pain he inflicted on you. The MB program here addresses so many of the things you will BOTH have to do to create a marriage very different, and much, much better than what you lived pre-A. Please do the reading, fill out the questionaires and apply what you learn.

He may not be willing to do these things at first, but in time, if he is sincere about wanting to put things right, he will.

Keep posting...over time the process will all become clear, and you will feel much more in control.

(((drgnfly)))

Right Here Waiting

He says that he hasn't talked to her since last Thursday - she called Sunday and left a voicemail, but he didn't answer and deleted the message. I'm going to talk to him again tonight about changing his number and email and putting a block on the email just in case. She also calls him on his work phone, but I might recruit our mutual friend to "take care of" those calls. She would be all too happy to help with that. She works in the same office as H, and she's been a huge support for me during all of this. And she kicks his butt on a regular basis for me.

He had sent her a NC 2 wks ago, but he violated that in about 2 days. She wouldn't stop contacting him sobbing and her dad kept calling and yelling at him.

The night before last we filled out the questionaires and went over them together. He wasn't really into filling them out, but he was perfectly fine with answering any questions I had about his answers. We actually got a couple good laughs out of some of the stuff!

We've gone to the counselor once, and we are both going to go individually for a while to work on ourselves. Then we'll start going again as a couple. We both need individual help changing our bad habits and find out where some of this stuff comes from.

Last night was nice - he was a little sad because he didn't get his hug right away when I got home. It's been a long time since he's wanted one, and it felt wonderful.

We're working on it one day at a time, but I feel that I need to push him to finally commit to NC. Neither one of us can heal until that part is over and then we can finally work on us.

Thank you

drgnfly

drgnfly,

Glad you've gotten some "feel goods" with your hubby, but please understand, he is CAKE EATING right now.

He has had contact with OW within the last few days (and perhaps more that you don't know about). He is still dangerous. DO NOT TRUST HIM YET.

Keep up your plan A, get those @@#%^!!! phone numbers and email addys changed and be vigilant about contact.

Until he goes COMPLETE NC with her for good, you cannot move forward, even with MC and IC. NC is what you must establish ASAP.

Meet his ENs, eliminate LBs, spend at least 15 hours a week alone with him doing those things, and if contact is still kept up, you'll need to consider Plan B.

He's switching his phone numbers and email addresses. He read a book that I left for him and realized how he's duped himself and how much he's hurt me. He finally had words put to the feelings he had that he couldn't identify, and he's upset with himself for letting that happen. He's always been way too arrogant and believed himself high above any of this. He was a very judgmental person and it kicked him in the a$$.

He says that he has no interest in talking to her. He realizes that it isn't her that he wants but the feelings (ENs) that he wants. I've been working on my LBs and trying to fill those ENs myself, and over the past month we have made good progress.

He's still in that stage though of not sure if this is going to work and he has to figure out what's best for him and not sure if he can do the work. I know....fog. But since he's in this mood big time right now, he said he's giving himself two days to decide if he wants to work on this or not. Two days?! He's finally starting NC and then he's just going to give us two days?? That isn't even enough time for the fog to lift so we can give this an honest shot!

I need to pull myself together right now and think positive and make these two days count. If not, then I guess it's Plan B.

Two days? That's nice of him.

Do the best you can in two days. If he wants to leave, let him go. You still have lots of time to turn this around.

drgnfly,

He hasn't been NC long enough to really get out of the A and out of his fog. Patience!

If he can make it through the first few weeks, he may not have another relapse. BUT, if he really goes NC, be prepared for withdrawal. This will look like going backwards, but it is a necessary step in HIS recovery.

See, the A gave him a high. Brain chemicals the A induced that addicted him. As he "withdraws" from the chemicals of the A, he will feel lousy. Moody, resentful, angry, depressed. Just like a junkie coming clean. Be prepared for this. It will hurt you, but you must contain yourself.

It will take everything you've got to continue Plan A, meeting his needs, not letting him bait you into love busting. DO NOT BACKSLIDE during this period!

Of course, since NC is so new, and you've been through him breaking it before, you must also remain vigilant. Watch him closely for contact, but do not nag, judge or criticize. You will probably hear more fog talk. DO NOT LISTEN. Just keep reiterating your commitment to him and the marriage, and admire his efforts to break loose.

Going NC is hard. It's hard on him, and it's hard on you. Don't let it defeat you.

And stay with us. You're probably going to need the encouragement through this.

rightherewaiting,

Thank you for all the support. Your posts mean a great deal to me and help draw me back out of my head and into motion. Everybody has been wonderful. And on bad days, it's great to find one of the "funny" threads and just have a laugh. If I find something particularly funny, I share it with my H.

My H finally started reading this site tonight and has gotten a good start on the concepts. He was very skeptical at first thinking that it would be about what a horrible person he is and all that, but he is very impressed and comfortable with the way Dr. Harley deals with the issues. He's seeing himself and me in many of the scenarios just as I did. I'm sure that when he gets to the mind sets it's going to blow his mind. I still can't get over how well it describes our life. Wish they would have taught this stuff when we were young. Maybe the divorce rate would be down if people were more educated in what love really is and how to negotiate in a relationship from the start.

He's starting to get the fog that I keep talking about, and it's starting to clear a little. I understand that he still has a long way to go though.

One of my LBs towards him is the OW. If I say something bad about her, he automatically applies it to himself because he was in the A too. For me it's a case that she's done this before and feels no remorse for anything she's done. She doesn't see anything wrong with what she's done to any of the families. He on the other hand feels remorse and guilt and understands what he's done. Plus I love him and can forgive him, but I do not need to forgive her. I have to work on not attacking her in order to not hurt him with the same words. It's just difficult to hold all that anger in sometimes. For this to work, it's something I need to fix.

I do admire his commitment to the NC. He's already made some big steps in that direction that I know were hard for him, but I am so proud of him for doing them. People always go to him with their problems and he's been stretched too thin. I've learned to deal with my own minor problems so I don't add to his strain, and he's finally started telling other people (including OW) that he can't help them anymore - he has to take care of himself for once. He needed that freedom and I think it's wonderful that he finally made that step for himself.

I will definitely keep posting here. It has helped immensely thus far. Sometimes I think that this was meant to happen - we're strong enough to get through this and eventually help others in the same situation.

drgnfly,

How good to read your post this morning! The slog through recovery is long, but you both seem to be off to a great start. There will be more ups and downs, but keep encouraging your H, and we'll keep encouraging you.

Sounds like your H has lived life with his Giver in overdrive. The reality is that no one can serve that many masters, and sometimes the people on the receiving end are selfish and manipulative. Gotta be selective about WHO gets a piece of you. His life (and yours) will be so much better for getting a grip on this.

Right now, it should be relatively easy. A crisis always shakes things up and offers an opportunity to do things differently. It's important to take advantage of this window of opportunity.

My FWH and I had lived many years as "married singles," but since the blowup of the A and our early, clumsy attempts to climb from the wreckage, we spend almost ALL of our free time together. REALLY hard in the beginning due to a lot of raw pain on both sides, but it has opened up areas of ourselves to each other that we'd not experienced in our 37 years before the A. In a sick, twisted way, the A was a gift. Sent from the devil, but with the help of God, turned to the good.

With you both reading here, it will be so much easier for you to work together. Important to be on the same page.

If H wants to post, he will get support too, unless he evidences foggy, wayward thinking. Then the bats will come out--NOT to judge or punish, but to help him look at himself from a different perspective--from love.

Kudos to you both for beginning the journey back.

Right Here Waiting.

Oh, meant to address this:

"One of my LBs towards him is the OW. If I say something bad about her, he automatically applies it to himself because he was in the A too... He on the other hand feels remorse and guilt and understands what he's done. Plus I love him and can forgive him, but I do not need to forgive her. I have to work on not attacking her in order to not hurt him with the same words. It's just difficult to hold all that anger in sometimes. For this to work, it's something I need to fix."


Bingo. The OW isn't worth the space in your mind, your heart or your marriage. OF COURSE, you're angry. You were dealt a mortal blow and he seems to get that. She serves no further purpose.

Once you feel safer with him, you will be better able to contain the anger you feel. At some point (down the line) you will be able to talk about the whole sorry time more objectively, and with compassion. That will be AFTER you've spent some time filling each other's love banks.

So get busy!

I always feel so much better after reading the posts on here. God was guiding me the day I found this site.

Part of the difficulty in letting go of the OW is she pretended to be a friend of mine, and I have that betrayal to get through also. She would look me in the eye, ask me to lunch or talk about getting our kids together to play. I don't understand how people can do that. I knew there was something wrong with my H - he acted guilty and did the hurtful things a WS does, but she didn't show an ounce of guilt when we talked. That's scary.

For my husband, I will let that go. I don't want to make him feel more guilty than he already does. He knows he messed up and we're ready to work on this.

btw...he made his decision on what he's going to do. He wants to work one day at a time. Looking too far down the road is overwhelming for him, so this is a much easier start.

He isn't changing his phone # yet. We compromised on that point and I'm very proud of us for the way we talked it out and came to a joint agreement. He called her this morning and told her flat out that it's over and there will be NO FURTHER CONTACT. She of course started bawling, but he made his point and got off the phone. He put a block on his emails and his myspace page, but we decided that he can keep the same number. He made a valid point - no matter what his number is, he could call her any time he wanted, and by changing it and giving me that security blanket it would be that much easier for him to cheat. It's an empty gesture as far as that goes. Not that he wants to call. In fact, he felt liberated as soon as he hung up the phone. If she calls him or sends him a text, he will change the number that day. And that works for me as long as he's completely honest with everything.

"He put a block on his emails and his myspace page, but we decided that he can keep the same number. He made a valid point - no matter what his number is, he could call her any time he wanted, and by changing it and giving me that security blanket it would be that much easier for him to cheat."

HUH?

Two things.

1) What in the hell is a grown man doing with a MySpace page? That is ridiculous. It's an invitation for more of this type of behavior.

2) The change in the phone number is to stop HER from randomly dropping into YOUR life. Not an issue of TRUST.

You need to make it clear to HIM, you don't trust him in any fashion at all right now. Everything he even says to your face is questioned. He hasn't done anything to actually earn your trust yet. Trust is earned by repeatedly showing you are trust worthy. That takes time, and well, you haven't made it past a couple of days of NC even. I'd make a stronger stand still, stating this is a non-negotiable, change the number already, quit playing you for a fool. It doesn't mean NC will hold true, but, it tells you that if it's broken, he was the one that allowed it to happen...

You have the power now, not him. It is your choice to forgive. Forgiveness doesn't just happen, it is a process. You have to remember that.

-hang in there

Probably, but not definitely.

I have a Facebook account because that's one of the ways I keep in touch with the kids - one is in college and the others live out of state. I also keep in touch with cousins, aunts, and old friends from out of state. We moved to a new state three years ago, and I have old girlfriends whose children were friends with my children, we used to babysit for each other, and trick-or-treat together, etc.

If she has access to his MySpace and/or Facebook, and his permission to put a keylogger on the computer, I think that would be fine. After all, the issue isn't the computer, or the cellphone, or the car, or a MySpace account, or business lunches, or a sports team, or any other of the myriad ways in which affair partners meet. The problem is the WS' boundaries and accountability.

I have a myspace, me and my brothers and sisters, there are 7 of us, only 1 lives in my state, the rest are spread all over the country, this is how we stay in touch with each other. Its just really easy to do it this way, we all have them set to private, not just anyone can have a look.

In my experience, this method for communication is unstable. I'm not saying communication via the web isn't great, it is. However, the MySpace era seems to invite problems. It's very similair imo to the classmates.com fiasco. They both can be used effectively, but, they also seem to be overly used to accomplish tasks of ill repute.

The point is in this case, dealing with a WS or FWS, who is untrustworthy, really shouldn't be posting stuff to a PUBLIC myspace page. It's just a way to communicate to the OP without the BS being able to monitor it.

my myspace isn't public, I wouldn't be opposed to my FWS having one if his was a more valid reason like mine and his was set to private also. When my H was W there wasen't the technology like there is now. We didn't have a PC or cells.

That's exactly how we work the MySpace pages too. We both have them to keep in contact with friends from long ago and family members spread all over the place. The OW just signed up on MySpace and we found out yesterday that she's been trying to see our pages. You can normally block a person, but for some reason her page doesn't give that option. I have to look further into it. As for now, only friends can see our pages and contact us.

I have a Facebook page also to keep in touch with my cousin in California (he doesn't like MySpace), but H doesn't have one. OW has a Facebook page too. In fact, we were friends on there.

H gave me his passwords and told me to go on his accounts and make the needed changes. And our mutual friends that he works with are keeping an eye on the caller id at work. And I can definitely trust them - they want to beat her down.

He had told me to ask you guys about the phone number and if you all said that it's a horrible idea, then he'll change it. I guess he's changing it! He wants to believe that she'll respect his wishes and then he doesn't have to go through the pain of changing his number with everyone else. :twobyfour:

Well, since he is reading here, why not ask if he will post?

And he DOES need to change his phone number.

if she won't back off, tell her you will have no choice but to look into some legal ways to make her back off. How obnoxious.

Drgnfly,

Your post that caused my dumbfounded "HUH?" has been answered by some who were able to put their thoughts into words better than I could at the moment.

While most are focused on your WH's Myspace page, my problem was with the goof-ball "explanation" he gave for keeping his cell phone number. Why would you lock all the doors to your house and leave the slider to the patio open??? OF COURSE SHE HAS IT.

I just don't know what else to say.

RHW

rightherewaiting,
your right, and there it is.

Okay, okay...we've talked about the phone number a lot today. He didn't completely understand the why of it, but is willing to change if that's what I want.

I have to say that he felt immensely relieved when he notified her of NC, and he's been happier today than he has been in a long time. He hasn't seen her in 3 weeks and has only talked to her a handful of times in that time-frame. I know that isn't the same as NC, but it has stopped any deposits she could make and it's actually been making withdrawals since she only called due to problems in her life. So in the last couple weeks - especially the last couple days of his reading this site, the illusion is lifting.

He had left me a month ago - was gone a week, but visited every day after work for a couple hours not to mention the contact throughout the day. The night he left, he could only make it to the corner before he broke down and couldn't breathe or stop crying. Today he broke it off with her and is happy! I take that as a very good sign. I understand that there are going to be bad days for both of us. In fact quite a few times today, I felt that it's too good to be true. Too easy. I am not turning my back on this - I will keep my eyes open and not be duped again. I will pay attention to my gut-feeling from now on. And I will keep up the posts here for my reality check.

I have a feeling he'll be posting soon, but he's a little afraid of being drawn and quartered.

btw...My H is an amazing person. Otherwise I wouldn't be trying so hard. Before everything started going down hill, we were incredible and I know we can be even better after reading this site and the posts. He can be the best husband and daddy I could ever ask for when he's not being a complete and utter moron. He is definitely worth the fight. I just wanted to clarify that since mostly I've only posted the bad stuff. And I'm trying to get back to the happy, positive person I was before all this went down. I'm trying to point out the good side, but I won't turn a blind eye to the bad. Learned a valuable lesson the hard way. :RollieEyes:

drgnfly,

I agree, reality checks are good!

Here's another: Have you guys gone to the phone store to get a new number? Till you do, there is still an open line between them. What means has he been using to talk to her "a couple of times" over the last three weeks?

No contact means NO CONTACT. Not "a couple of times!" As long as they are talking we do NOT have "no contact," and that is the Cardinal Rule of reconciliation! We cannot stress this enough.

You will NOT recover your M until he is well beyond a couple of days without the "fix," despite the number of feel-goods you're getting at the same time.

Oh, yeah, he "hates" dealing with her now. Then why does he continue to do it?

I am beginning to understand how the BS gets fogged too. Never saw that before, and I am applying how I did it myself back then. So thank you for showing me so clearly how it works. Really.

Here's hoping you two will get into REAL NC. Of course, that is entirely up to your H.

Tell him he is welcome to post here, and we will support him too, when he "gets" it that ANY contact is continuing the A. If he wants to justify talking to this whacko for any reason at all, he can expect 2x4's, not support.

Holding hope for you. In the meantime, please protect your heart.

RHW

its still very early, I am not convinced your in recovery at this point, not convinced there isn't some contact.
I feel H is somewhat of a cake eater at this point, no?

I said the last couple weeks he's had a couple times of contact which we both know is wrong. As of yesterday, he initiated absolutely NC whatsoever and together we are taking all steps necessary to prevent that. And I am NOT trusting this completely, and I am keeping watch all the time.

H is still in deep fog, but he's understanding the addiction and seeing through the illusions that both of them built around the relationship. We both have a long way to go and are far from recovery. We're still working hard at the issues that got us this far in the first place and that's going to take some time.

I would really love for someone with some "veteran" skills to come onto your thread and just make sure that your not a door matt either, I think there can be a fine line, but I am so new at this myself truthfully speaking.
calling out to all veterans

"I have a feeling he'll be posting soon, but he's a little afraid of being drawn and quartered."

Oh, tell him not to worry, but yes, he will definately be drawn and quartered.

drgnfly,

Just yesterday, he instituted NC again, for what, the fifth time?

Swap cell phones with him until he gets that number changed!

See if he's willing to do that, and you will learn much, my friend.

RHW

Have any of you heard the song "Cheater Cheater"? It is hilarious!! Our friends that H works with called the radio station and requested this song for him.

drgnfly,

Glad you seem to be feeling better.

Does hubby have a new cell phone number yet? If not, has he switched cell phones with you?

You can't let this one go under the wire.

RHW

Yes, this is the third time that he's initiated NC. Believe me, I know what has happened the past two times. I even have panic attacks and am on medication over this. The attacks had gone down quite a bit, but they seem to be popping up again.

This weekend was the best weekend we've had in years. We focused on US and making deposits and it was fantastic!! We have both been so happy all weekend and had fun! It helped that the in-laws kept DD all weekend, so we could have from Friday early evening all the way through tonight for just us. Wow...I miss that.

btw....the phone is taken care of. We just wonder how to handle the other stuff: we live in a small city/town. For example - our only mall has about fifteen stores. Plus we have Wal-Mart and Big K. You can drive from one end of town to the other in 8 mins. Therefore, we see her everywhere. We see her while out driving at least once per day. This weekend we limited our time at the mall so we wouldn't run into her. How do we manage this?? She can get his new number from other contacts of his. She knows his work number and even though some of the people there are helping with that, they can't be on watch all the time. He has no inclination whatsoever to talk to her and if she calls work, he will just hang up. Her H has said she will not give up easily. We ended up heading down to Green Bay, WI for the whole day Saturday which was a ton of fun, but we can't just skip town all the time.

Thank you to everyone who has posted here. Drgnfly and I are both grateful for the assistance you've offered, and for the tools that this site provides for us to get through these times.

It has taken me 31 years to realize that we can't fix all of our problems alone - I typically work to resolve my issues alone or with only my wife for support... a system that I now see is flawed and unstable. Especially in this situation. Drgnfly and I are not equipped to deal with my A alone. This site, and your posts, have helped us immensely already, and we're only starting to open the door to our problems and what I've done.

So again, thank you.


RHW - Twice before I've initiated NC with the OW. Or so my wife and I discussed anyway. Looking back I realize that I never intended to honor the NC policy we agreed to. I was still undecided if I even wanted our M to work again - I believe lost in the fog is the terminoligy used on this site.

However, when I broke the second NC agreement, I did it in the form of LC (limited contact) - I know that after reading the topics on this site that this is an impossible solution, but LC was my attempt at fixing things myself... unfortunately fixing something alone and without any scientific or historical merit is ... well, wasted effort usually. The LC was in the form of text/emails only. No face time, and complete break-away from the OW's "issues". While not the correct step to take to end an A and begin working on a M, this LC did allow me to begin to dispel the illusion of what the A meant to me. And more importantly (I know now) it took me away from the rather large LB deposits she was making. Essentially it allowed me to step back and see what was really going on in our (drgnfly and I) lives.

As of Friday a.m I chose to initiate NC with the OW. I feel it is important to clarify that this was MY choice, not something I did to appease my wife. I chose to join the fight with drgnfly to save and re-create our marriage. Regardless of how that fight goes (very well so far I might add) the A is over and NC is in effect.

Oh - and while I may be drawn and quartered, and/or beaten with 2x4's... I'm not a fragile man and would always rather hear a harsh truth than a softly whispered half-truth. Please, by all means, give me your raw opinions.

Skald911

skald, I am sorry to read that it wasn't your "choice" to stop contact because you knew how very hurtful and harmful it was to your wife. But, I suppose purely selfish reasons are better than none and hopefully you will maintain your NC for the sake of your wife's mental health.

Just so you know, adultery is as traumatic as being raped or the death of a child, after all. You might find Dr Harley's video about this to be helpful: here

Glad you made it here.

drgnfly, has a no contact letter been sent? Dr Harley recommends that a no contact letter be sent:

Check out this very important article:

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

It sounds so simple in writing, but unfortunately for us moving is not an option.

Sometimes I forget how easily words read in a forum are taken out of context, and that we need to be careful how we say things, or over explain our meaning in order to make things clear.

What I meant by that statement is that the first two NC agreements were essentially lies from the start - I chose to not honor them before I even agreed to them. Unfortunately at that time the hurt that I caused my W and DD were not considerations. Therefore the first two NC agreements were lies uttered to appease my wife (as I saw it at the time.) What I should have said is "not something I did to appease my wife this time ."

Now however I am aware of the damage I've caused. My wife's pain is very much on my mind. And my NC choice is made with that damage/pain in mind, and out of a desire to restore our relationship.

Skald

Actually it does not sound simple AT ALL! It sounds HARD and complicated! But not as hard as living in an environment where you both are perpetually triggered by the OW. That would be like dying a death of a thousand cuts.

Skald, thanks for your clarification. That makes perfect sense.

Well very nice words that will appease all here on the forum, but my Q to you is very simple. How will you achieve this???

What extraordinary precautions have you put in place to achieve no contact? Have you condisered a move from where you are to another state or something of that nature? How much does your M mean to you??

Words are pretty, but actions are much louder!!

All Blessings,
Jerry

Good point Jerry. The first step I've put in place for NC probably means nothing to the readers/posters on this forum, with good reason. Or will be considered another outright lie, again with good reason. That step is desire. I desire NC with the OW. A simple statement, but consider it my first time at the podium, stating my name and my addiction, and my desire/need to do away with that addiction.

I'd gladly move to another state. In the future that may well be part of our solution, but unfortunately right now it truly is not an option... for my W. For us to move to another state would require immense sacrifices on her part - I'd pack up tomorrow if she was able/willing to.

We are very open to and hoping for suggestions on how to go about complete NC given our situation. It's simple to have no intentional contact, but bumping into the OW at a store/restaraunt is a concern that we need to deal with for now.

However Jerry, on one part of your reply you were incorrect... both in my intention and I think the result. -->

I highly doubt anybody on these forums will be convinced of how genuine my words are. And, no offense intended to anybody, appeasing people on this forum isn't the slightest concern of mine at this time. All I can offer is the truth - whether it's believed or not is nearly irrelevant, other than from an offered aid standpoint.

skald,

I applaud you for posting. I applaud your honesty in admitting that your first two attempts at NC were "lies." It doesn't take a genius to see that she is wise to remain skeptical until you have proven your trustworthiness over and over and over until she knows it's real.

Look, I've become very fond of drgnfly, and have watched her efforts to bring you back to the marriage since her first post. She LOVES you, man.

You hurt her in a way that I don't think you will ever fully appreciate. DO NOT play games with her heart anymore. She only has so much love in her heart...what remains CAN be destroyed, but it's up to you to build on it, not squander any more of it.

That said, I'd like to suggest that you TELL your friends who have your new phone # NOT to give it to anyone else. If this nut job who seemed like a soul mate gets hold of it, you're in grave danger. You wouldn't be the first to get roped back in, regardless of what you think now. That is why NO CONTACT means exactly that. You have been addicted to the drug of your A with this particular woman--you can never speak to her again. She is like heroin to you. Do you get that?

While it would be best to blow town, I understand that it isn't always possible financially. Living expenses while supporting a mortgage in this market while you pray for a buyer, etc. And drgnfly doesn't want to move. SO, you will have to double up on your extra-ordinary precautions as long as you are there. Your A partner will not give up easily, as you've seen. You must cut off ANY attempt at contact as soon as it appears. Walk away, NO WORDS to her. None.

Continue to delve into the information here, and in Harley's books, about emotional needs. You both need to fill those "love banks." Their depletion is what got you into this mess to begin with.

Keep posting too. We will nail you on any remaining foggy thinking you may do, and if you're serious about rebuilding with drgnfly, you will take heed, not offense.

Recovery will not be fast, or easy, although you will have wonderful moments. Be prepared for the down times, they will come, but do not yield to the temptation to throw in the towel. Strengthen your commitment to NC and to meeting each other's needs.

We're all pulling for you. Take care of drgnfly.

Right Here Waiting

I just want to clarify to everyone and my H knows this - I would love to move. Not just to get away from all the drama, but to get away from this area in general. We have talked about moving to AZ someday. It just isn't possible at the moment.

We both admit that I'm the main "bread-winner" in our M. I run my parent's company, I've been working here since I was 13, and I can't just walk away from that. I also help my brother run his company. Neither H or I have a college degree. We've both had to work since we were very young and we never had time to finish college. We take a class here and there, but it is taking a while. So when we do decide to move, what kind of jobs will we be able to get and I'm sure it won't meet what we're getting now. We are saving up for the future and have high hopes of escaping from here, but right now it isn't an option.

The only option I can think of and is a possibility is moving to the next town over so at least we aren't always in the same town as OW. It would limit the chance of contact. We still have to work here, but we could live elsewhere. If only the market would get moving again so we could sell our house.

Welcome, Skald. I hope you will start a thread and post on it because otherwise it gets confusing. Just the fact that you are posting here gives me lots of hope, because most waywards won't post. Hopefully we can help you get the hang of MB so that you and your wife can enjoy a marriage that is better than before.

drgnfly,

I see now what your H meant when he said that moving now would involve great sacrifice for you. It's not just quitting a "job" for you, and you fear you could not find comparable employment elsewhere.

I guess you have to weigh the risks, don't you?

I'm guessing you will know in a couple of months which sacrifice is harder to bear.

Maybe moving to a nearby town would help, but whether you move or not, I think a NC letter is in order. If she still doesn't back off, it's time for a restraining order.

Whatever you do about your living arrangements, whether it's small steps or one grand move, use the POJA to get there!

RHW

RHW,

We're pretty certain that she's tried to call him at work today. They were both "private numbers" on the caller id and the caller hung up as soon as somebody besides H answered. We're wondering if there's a common time frame for the OP to give up. Is that part of the three weeks withdrawal period? Does it take that long for them to realize too and come to terms with it? Or could this go on indefinitely? I know OWH said that she will not give up easily, so we've been prepared for this.

About the letter of NC. Since he already initiated NC, wouldn't sending a letter violate that?

We were talking last night and we decided to start posting in the other forums dealing with conflict, ENs, negotiations and such. The stronger we make our marriage, the further away the A gets pushed. If we're meeting each others needs and eliminating the LBs, then there's no need to go elsewhere to get them.

Thank you for being here.

drgnfly

Hi drgnfly,

SO good you have support at H's workplace! And since HE dumped HER, it's going to take a while to get rid of her. ("Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned...") Yep, she'll have to go through withdrawal too, so it could be a while. (Our OW pestered my FWH for SIX MONTHS after he broke it off. Talk about a sore loser. But I can laugh NOW.)

As I remember, your H broke off contact only recently...and OW is still intruding, so maybe that "reinforcement" is necessary. Of course, once some time has gone by, NC letters make no sense. Strike while the iron's hot, I say.

Glad to see you broadening your involvement. Hope to run into you on another forum!

Best wishes to you, drgnfly and skald.

Right Here Waiting