Can any of the veterans point me to threads that discuss this topic?

I was at support group meeting last week and, to my surprise, virtually all of the people there who had experienced infidelity on the part of their spouses and who were still under the same roof had told, even their young children, about the affairs.

I'd been told that the children should be protected from this type of information and that the burden of this knowledge would do more harm than good. My kids are 8, 10 and 13.

Any strong opinions out there one way or the other?

Thanks...

-AlexEN

Your children deserve to know that there is an attack on their family. Chances are good that they already know.

I see that the affair has been going on for some time. You probably should be in Plan B.

To my knowledge (and I have strong reason to believe) the PA with OM1 is over; she denies that she is having an EA with OM2 (who lives 1500 miles away), but I strongly suspect otherwise. Tough to "expose" the former and the latter is without "proof".

There is a forum below if you scroll down that is titled: Infidelity: The Lessons Children Learn. It doesn't get much activity though. Questions about exposing the A to children tend to get buried in threads that talk about the A on a whole.

I think any parent should always tell their children and not pretend that adultery isn't anything other than what it is...evil, vile and destructive. My children are both under 10 and are aware. No specfic gory details but still the truth. People that are involved in active affairs are not only bad spouses they are bad parents.

I'm sure some vets will chime in shortly with the MB quotes about telling kids the truth.

In them meantime, can you post more about your whole story?

Who has been telling you this?

Believer,

You asked, so here it is... It's long... I apologize in advance...

Have a WW, but the issues seem to be so complex (infidelity, another suspected EA, etc.). What I do know is that I’ve made mistakes, but, based upon what I’ve read on the site, the people who have gone through what I’m going through are probably the ones who are most likely to be able to offer me the best advice as I continue down this challenging path.

I’m confused by the whole idea of going dark (especially while we live under one roof), as that is a trait that my WW says drove her away. Not sure how to walk that tightrope… If I stay detached, it proves her point. I’ve listed some other questions I have at the very bottom of this essay (and I apologize in advance for its length).

It has been an excruciatingly painful journey; one that I realize I was ill-prepared to face. My story is below (and it isn’t at all meant to bash my WW; just to give background to my sitch. Believe it or not, I sometimes find myself defending her, as I spent a lot of time trying to come to grips with how we got where we are.

My world has been turned upside-down for more than a year. There are more twists and turns to this story than I could imagine. If I weren’t living this, I wouldn’t believe it could be happening (in fact, if someone were to write this story, I would label it fiction – unfortunately, it isn’t), but I guess that’s the case for most of the people who find themselves here.

I wish I’d found these forums sooner as I think I’ve made a million mistakes, but I’m looking for any pearls of wisdom I can get to move forward and get out of this bad dream in which I am living… I'm in a much better place now (working on me for my next R whether it be with W or someone else) but still grappling with the exposure and what to tell the kids issue.

Here is short version:

I got the ILYBINILWY work late on the night of 11/6/2007. It shook me (shook me hard), but I shouldn’t have been so completely shocked as things clearly weren’t right in our marriage. I had a feeling that there was something more to it, but naïve being that I was, I thought it was just that – a marriage that needed some care. It shook me enough that I went into my son’s room to sleep. In the morning, my wife came in to my son’s room and said words to the effect of “you’re making a big deal out of nothing”. On 11/8/2007, my wife disclosed a “flirtation” with someone else – there was “mutual interest” but nothing more than that, but that she just wasn’t attracted to me anymore. And, oh, by the way “should I get a boob job” and “maybe we should have an open marriage” (you can’t imagine how out-of-character either of these sentiments would have been to her over the course of our 22 year marriage), as all the while, believe it or not, we were looking for a new house (while sitting on a lot we had bought to build upon)…

In any event, in order to try and shorten this story to the highlights, I’ve finally realized that I have a WW and I do understand how she got to that point (don't know if there is MLC component to this, too, but I think there is to some degree).

She had to get to a point where she just couldn’t stand me anymore in order to tell me what she did. I’ve realized over time that she seems to have re-created history in a way that makes her more comfortable with where she is now. She fully-expected that this disclosure was going to set me off and that I would say, “Well, if that’s the case, let’s get a divorce”. Everything got thrown into limbo when my reaction was exactly the opposite of what she expected. Probably mistake #1, as I was a wreck (and did a complete 180 without knowing what one was then) and, as she later said (although it was “too little, too late”) into the man she always wanted me to be].

The next several months were filled with interactions where she would get mad at me for no reason, accuse me of saying one thing, but knowing that what I was really thinking something else, and being particularly defensive about even the most innocent of comments I would make. Thinking back, during this time period, was when I was probably doing my best DBing, without knowing what it was, as my focus was on being a better me.

A lot of last fall is a blur to me. I read everything I could to try to make sense of a situation that I couldn’t grasp. We still slept in the same bed (still do!) but I was not allowed to touch. She claimed not to be thinking about divorce herself and assured me there was no “affair” beyond the flirtation (of course, that’s before I even knew what an EA was). I led a very sheltered life in that respect.

Her biggest fear, however, was (and still is) looking like “the bad guy” to our three wonderful children (more on them later) so no displays of affection were ever allowed. She agreed to go to counseling, but her participation was “in body only”. She would only reluctantly do the exercises or not do them at all. All the while I was starting to piece things together (I don’t know if others have ever felt the same way, yet despite the head telling you that you are being lied to, the heart still believes the lies that are being told). She has this amazing (although it is now so scary to me) ability to compartmentalize her life. It’s what let’s her act so cheery in front of the kids, while I feel that we’ve been living a lie in front of them.

In early January, I accidently found out that she had a secret phone, I dialed the number and it was her voice saying in a come-hither tone, “Hi, you’ve reached my little red phone, leave me a message and I’ll call you back as soon as I can” or something to that effect. I confronted her about it and actually bought her explanation that she had to have her own phone because she contacted a divorce attorney, “just once”, and needed to have a number for him to call back on. I knew she was lying (she wouldn’t look me in the eyes), but somehow, I guess because I didn’t want to believe the obvious, I let it go at that!

Okay, you can call me an idiot now, but when you’re “living it” it isn’t as obvious as it is from the outside looking in! She became, perhaps understandably, given the compartmentalization and the “flirtation” quite an accomplished liar. All the while, she was letting me believe this was all because of me and our relationship. Truth be told, our marriage was a mess, but I got such a whack on the head that early November night, that I was going through epiphanies of sorts. (Despite the truths I know now, I still know that I will come out of this a better person than I was going in, but that doesn’t make what I’m going through any less painful).

By mid-February, I wasn’t as dense anymore, but I figured out with whom she was having the EA (it was a classmate of ours from College who had occasion to pass through town on a fairly regular basis – turns out his marriage was a mess, too). We live in the mid-west and, to protect identities, I’m going to make up where this OM lived as it is part of a very small world coincidence that reared its head later. So, for purposes of this letter, let’s say the OM form this purported EA lives in Eugene, OR. All the while, I was working on me and wrote her the long letter. At the same time, our counselor was pressing on this “flirtation” and, in early March, she disclosed (what I’m sure many of you figured out already) that the EA was really a PA.

I wasn’t surprised at all, she was shocked at how I took that, too. She drank herself silly telling me, while I told her I really did understand how she got to where she did (I’m no saint) but that the affair was easier to accept than the lies. While it was very difficult for her, she agreed to break things off with him completely (in fact, as I heard the story, he was “angry” with her that she had told me about it (and he even made the same lame joke I did about not ever being able to go to a reunion again!), which she defended because, after all, she “betrayed him” by telling me!

She agreed she wouldn’t contact him for 90 days (I knew right away that a timeline like that wasn’t good news; and felt like I had a ticking clock in the background the whole time, but more on this later). She also agreed to have “vacation sex” with me (oh, I forgot this part of the story; she had been urging me to see her anti-aging doctor a couple of years ago… while I was going through the stress of this whole time period I did go to see him. Turned out I had low testosterone, which he more than cured, making the “no touch policy” particularly hard on me (no pun intended). So, the treatment worked, but there was no outlet for its success.)

Now, I know what I didn’t know then, and the whole sex thing was probably big mistake #2. We went with the kids to Mexico over spring break had a fantastic room with a very private balcony, which we visited quite extensively after the kids were in bed. It was sex and not much more, as she had trouble kissing me (“too intimate”, she said). And, believe it or not, I soon came to realize (even with testosterone coursing through my body) that the sex without the kissing and the “connection” wasn’t really doing it for me either. During this 90 day period, I was, perhaps not surprisingly to those who have been in my shoes, concerned that she was still in contact with the OM. I wanted to believe her, but I had my doubts. I’ve since come to believe that she really wasn’t in touch with him or, more aptly, that he was able to cut it off cold turkey, but that that was harder for her, which, again, in a perverted sort of way, I understand. I think it was much more to her than it was to him (for reasons I will get to later, too).

There were times during that 3 months where things were going relatively well and when she could actually kiss me; I’d joke about how it made me swoon, which was true. The kissing meant more to me than the sex, even though it never got to the point where I could say there was a true connection, but we were getting along very well. The kids even noticed that we rarely fought and would often comment on how nice I was. It really wasn’t a conscious effort; it was more the result of introspection since November, 2007. I took her on a weekend to the Santa Fe (I made ALL the plans, which I never would have done before, including getting a sitter for the kids and arranging for us to have private pottery lessons with a local artist. I even had a rose petal turndown service arranged for us at the quaint hotel we visited.)

I realize now that I was putting too much pressure on both of us too soon (another mistake in the litany), but other than the sex thing, we really were getting along better than ever. We had a few good “dates” in April and May, but she was constantly reminding me that it felt “fake” and that she had trouble “trying”. MWD’s Nike Solution (aka, the Butterfly Solution) doesn’t resonate with my wife. That, in turn, made me feel all the more pressure. I wanted/needed reassurance that she wouldn’t recontact the OM when the time was up, something she was never able to commit to. Her answer was always that she didn’t expect to hear from him (which I told her didn’t answer my question because I wanted to know how she’d respond if he did).

So, here is where the story gets really weird, to me, at least. On June 24th, she took our daughter to camp in upstate NY. I remember that morning well, as it was the first time since everything began that she told me she loved me! Within 48 hours, the whole world had changed. I’ll tell the story first from the perspective of what I knew at the time (and later with what I’ve since learned to be the truth). She called from NY, after she dropped our daughter at camp and sounded really strange to me. I have developed this kind of radar where I instantly could tell by the tone of her voice (or a look on her face when she was present) when she wasn’t being straight up with me (that was what led me down the path to figuring out who the OM was in January and February!). This was one of those times; something wasn’t quite right and I knew it right away (has anyone else had this 6th sense sensation?). I was also in a “checking” phase which many who have been cheated upon go through. I could check our phone records online and I did it all too regularly. I also learned during this time period that one of the nights she was with the OM was 11/7/2007, the day after the ILYBINILWYA talk and the night before the “flirtation” disclosure, but, most anguishing to me, the day upon which she told me I was making a big deal out of nothing.

The morning after she dropped our daughter at camp, I noticed that she had placed some calling card calls from her cell phone. I called her and asked her what the heck she was doing (she had done this before and had promised not to do it again). I asked her if she had contacted the OM. She said she had tried to but had been unsuccessful. I was very upset and suggested rather than staying in NYC for the night, she might want to consider coming straight home. She did that and when I met her at the airport it was, to say the least, very awkward. She wanted to get something to eat before reading a letter to me that she had written on the trip back. Well, that was the letter in which she put “divorce on the table” saying she couldn’t “try” anymore. That it was too “fake” to her and that we had to get on with our lives. I was stunned and did all the things I shouldn’t have done. I begged, cried, pleaded for her to reconsider. I told her that one mistake didn’t mean we had to give up on trying to make things work, but she was resolute. We haven’t been intimate since.

What was stranger to me was how adamant she became about going back a day early to get our daughter when camp was over two weeks later (in the interim, we went to Las Vegas with the two boys, where we already had made plans to see a show and stay in a hotel on the strip one night while her parents watched the kids – man, was that an awkward trip, but I digress). This need to go back early freaked me out and she kept maintaining it shouldn’t matter to me what she does because we should already have been separated as it is. The list of hurtful things she said is too numerous to recount, but is largely irrelevant. In any event, on the night of July 10th she went out to dinner with some girlfriends. I, still being in “checking” mode (forever stopped because of what I found) looked in her bag which she left out only to find Pina Colada Juicy Lube and contraceptive sponges. I felt like I had been bludgeoned but I also felt dirty for having gone through her bag. I was sure her reason for going back to get our daughter a day early was so she could have a rendezvous with the OM.

Believe it or not, the truth, if it is the truth, is stranger (but, I’ll get to that later). I can’t remember what led to it, but somehow we got into a huge fight when she got home the night before she left to get our daughter; I wasn’t going to disclose what I found, but somehow I’m sure I picked a fight (among the traits of how we related before was that since there was little positive attention between the two of us, negative attention was better than nothing. Obviously, that’s not true, but it is how we related) hoping she would come clean. When I dropped her at the airport, she assured me she had no plans of seeing Alex (the OM shares my name!).

I didn’t believe her. In fact, after conferring with a friend, I called Alex that morning on his cell phone, not out of anger, but to ask him as a gentleman to not see my wife and contribute to circumstances that could have everlasting consequences to our children. The first words out of his mouth were an apology, something my wife had never done. I told him I no more blamed him than I blamed my wife or I blamed myself for what had happened and that that wasn’t my point in contacting him. Of course, it could have been rehearsed, but he sounded sincere and made a point of telling me he had told my wife to “work on her marriage”. He told me he hadn’t talked to her since she had dropped my daughter off at camp. Odd, because she said that she’d tried to reach him but had been unsuccessful. Not that other things added up, but nothing was adding up here.

He then said words which struck me as very odd, but which didn’t have a whole lot of meaning until several months later. After saying he was in my town and could have reached out to my wife if he still wanted to see her (which led me to believe he had no idea that she wasn’t in town) he said: “I am not your problem anymore”. So, what the heck was going on? Why did she pack what she packed? I was somewhat relieved, but had no idea what was going on. Was she seeing if I was spying on her and setting me up? Was she planning to go out and pick someone up? I had no answers, but certainly had questions.

The summer went on. We even took the kids to Disney (all of which was completely awkward to me, as I feel like we’re living a lie in front of them). She was, however, becoming increasingly distant and defensive and acting more and more like she was when she was having the affair. I was sure she was back in touch with Alex. She assured me she was not and, given my prior conversation with him, I believed she was not. (I bet some of you think you know the punch line now, but I guaranty you do not).

September came and the distance was increasing, but moreover, the defensiveness and the making fights out of nothing were killing me. Finally, one night I told her I was sure if she wasn’t seeing Alex that she was seeing someone else and would she please come clean. She sat there took some deep breaths and told me that she had been in contact since February with, of all people, her first love from College. She assured me it wasn’t “anything” and that they were just friends. Yet, she also disclosed that she had a new private phone just for him (she had given me the first one when she agreed to the 90-day no contact period).

Coincidentally, he, James, is going through a divorce, too, and, to make matters even stranger, he happens to be living in, of all places, Eugene! He is a Professor at another school, but is/was a visiting professor at a Law School in Eugene! Stranger still, the reason she had gotten in touch with him to begin with was at the suggestion of Alex. Alex and Amy had been talking about past loves when Amy mentioned James. Alex suggested that she get in touch with James to catch up, so she did in early February and once or twice a month while she was ostensibly “trying” to work on our marriage. She claims the contact was irregular (and “meant nothing”) but that when the 90 day period of non-contact with Alex was up, she had this uncontrollable urge to contact James. Well, it was he whom she had contacted with the calling card when she was dropping our daughter at camp, not Alex! She only called Alex because she was afraid I would contact him (which, I did do, but not until 3 weeks later) and read him the riot act, when he was now just a bystander to this whole mess!

While it probably doesn’t matter to the story, she claims she still hasn’t seen James. When I ultimately confronted her with the fact that I had found the contraceptives, she claims it was just wishful thinking on her part and that she never saw him.

Having said all of this, I don’t understand several things. In my head, I think I should hate her right now, but I don’t. Like the old Beatles song, I don’t like her, but I love her and it really doesn’t make sense to me. I can forgive everything that’s happened, but I’m having the most trouble accepting that she can’t/won’t try to see if we could fix things.

I’ve never had expectations that things would work out, but always the hope. It would be much easier for me to move on if there were a hint even of what I would call a “sincere effort”, but I realize that isn’t under my control, but something is keeping me from being able to go along with her desire for a divorce. I haven’t talked about it much here, but my biggest fear is for our children. Our oldest is bipolar, so the deck is stacked against him to begin with. I’m so sad when I put them to bed each night thinking that they will be robbed of an intact family when it just doesn’t have to be that way. And how should I be acting in front of the kids, when the life we are leading in front of them seems so phony?

I know she wants me to be able to say to the kids with her that this is a place where “we both got to”. But, I want to be honest with them; it isn’t true that it’s a place that Daddy has gotten to, because I don’t think we’ve done everything in our power to make sure things really couldn’t work out. I will not present a united face with her if it means lying to the children.

I’m also confused as to how I can stay detached when we live under one roof? One of the things she always complained about is me not telling her how much I loved her and appreciated her, yet, if I understand the Plan, I’m not supposed to do that at all. Doesn’t that just reinforce in her mind that she was right? I look at the defensiveness and subconscious fight-starting similarly. It seems she does that to get me to react so she can reinforce that the decision she’s made (that we must divorce) is the right one.

Am I a fool to think this can have a happy ending? Why do I care so much still? I can’t even figure it out anymore, but there’s something holding me back from leaving her. I can’t help but think that she just isn’t herself right now. In a strange way, at some level, I feel sorry for her right now, because, despite the fact that she thinks she’s found herself, I think she’s lost and confused and trying to refind her youth (which, in her fog, I have stolen from her).

Unless she learns to deal with her anger and defensiveness, this pattern of shutting people out of her life when they don’t live up to her expectations will continue. I fear the same thing ultimately happening with her children and can think of nothing sadder. Ironically, she ran away from her mother to James (as her first love) and she is running away from me to him, too. I guess I’m still hoping against hope that she can have the same epiphany I did and learn that blaming someone else for life’s disappointments isn’t the solution.

-AlexEN

Raven,


Even my IC has said this; and I have my doubts. His point is that there will be a "right side and a wrong side of history" and ultimately they will find out the truth. My counter is, yeah, but what good does that do 10 years from now when the damage to their lives will have been done?

-AlexEN

Hopefully Melody Lane will chime in as she has some links to some great articles on this.

It is very important to tell the children for many reasons. Children instinctively blame themselves. It's not enough to say "there, there, dear, it's not your fault" - they will blame themselves until they understand clearly what happened. They will carry this guilt with them for the rest of their lives.

Children also need to understand that right and wrong and resulting consequences apply to everyone, including adults.

They need an opportunity to be angry at the parent who is breaking up their family due to an affair. They need to know you can love someone and be angry with them at the same time.

Even very young children can understand basic concepts about it. "Daddy and Mommy can no longer stay married because Mommy has a boyfriend, and you can't stay married if you have a boyfriend." This simple statement lets them know why their world is turning upside down, as well as who's responsible so they can have an outlet of their anger and KNOW they aren't to blame. It's very critical.

I really think you need to tell the kids and then go into Plan B.

In your time line you write:



If your wife is going forward with her plans to divorce or plans to continue her adultery, your children need to know about the OM. Your children have a good chance of being introduced to OM if your wife continues her adultery.



If your wife immediately stops her adultery and she starts repairing the marriage - your children don't necessarily need to be told.

And in the meantime think their mother is such a lovely woman who would NEVER hurt her kids or other innocent people. :RollieEyes: It's called fraud.

At the risk of sounding completely naive, I AM quite certain the PA is over; the EA (which she denies) is with someone who lives 1500 miles away. What also complicates this is that a lot of it is in her mind... She is in love with the fantasy of it all... The real world doesn't have enough drama... She isn't seeing the CONSEQUENCES at all and has rationalized everything to be my (or our marriage's) fault.


She has no intention of introducing the kids to him...

I'm more intereseted in this topic in terms of the notion of exposure, if that makes sesne...

Alex,

You have created a good place to gather a lot of experienced thought. Although I have said elsewhere that I intend to tell the truth to the k's, obviously easier said than done. Actually, telling them isn't the issue - what to say is.

I am following what is being said here...

Lost

Keep those cards and letters coming!



I agree completely; I do want to tell them in an age-appropriate way, but am convinced the truth is important for them to hear....

My son is seven. and I think I got the idea of what to say on here. He was believing that he may have had something to do with it or he had known about daddys "friend". and I didnt want him to think this happened because of him or just because daddy has a friend.

I told him

mommy and daddy got married. god brought us together. when you get married it means you share a special kind of love (like we kiss). That special love is only for mommy and daddy to share.
daddy shared that special kind of love with another girl. and now he has left me and you for that girl. that is why mommy is so hurt. you have nothing to do with this. mommy and daddy love you very much. and we will always love you. you are our son. what daddy did was wrong. that doesnt mean he is a bad person. he is just making very bad choices right now. Mommy loves daddy very much and wants him to come home where he belongs with his family.

my son was so happy when i told him because he had no clue what was goin on. why WH left. he told me he gets it and was happy i explained it that way.

Still,

Thanks... My IC was telling me the kids don't need to know details, and I think that's the same as lying to them. IMO, they have a right to know as long as it is in age-appropriate language.


Not telling them something ultimately brands us both as liars. I feel badly enough that I'm party to this lie we've been living, though I can rationalize that in the sense that until recently I still believed she would come out of her fog (which, if it were the case, would obviate the need for them to know). I'm sure some ethicists would feel differently, but when they are about to face such upheaval, they have a right to know more or the lesson they will ultimately get is that covering up the truth is acceptable for them (after all, it was acceptable to their parents).

-AlexEN

You dont know what is in your kids minds. my therapist told me it was too grown too tell my son. but when i explained how i was gonna tell him. she said it was age appropriate.

My husband and I had mutual friends that are married and sometimes my friends husband would stop by. He has depression like me and after what happened he would check up on me to make sure i wasnt isolating myself. I didnt want my son thinking "ok mommy has a guy friend why is it not okay for daddy to have a girlfriend" you know.

and i didnt want to look like the bad guy in Plan b. my husband would say to him "but mommy wont talk to me or let me in the house." I told my son this was because what he did hurt me badly and until he stopped seeing this OW mommy felt better if she didnt see or talk to him. but i made sure to tell him that WH was his dad and I want him to spend time with him, this was betw. mommy and daddy. And that i would love WH to come home and talk to me if he would stop hurting me and stop seeing OW.


I want to teach my son right from wrong. And leaving your family is WRONG.

My son has adjusted very well. well better than you would expect in this situation. but also my WH spends time with him regularly so that helps him a lot too.


Good luck and hang in there. I know it s*cks.

Our boys are 12 & 14 and I told them. I kept it quiet for awhile hoping they wouldn't have to know but they knew something was wrong. They were shocked and mad. They asked questions and I answered them honestly. I felt like they were old enough to understand. They both still get along with their dad but don't trust him at all. The youngest always says he feels betrayed, the oldest is just plain mad. When WH left to stay with his sister for 3 days the oldest didn't want him to come home. WH doesn't know that, I didn't want to cause anymore distance between them. They know who the OW is, and considering she is a bus driver for their school corp. they see her occasionally. The oldest wants to confront her, I have told him he can't do that. 4 months ago we had a "family meeting" because WH was p*ssed that I had told them, he thought I only told my side, he was shocked when he asked them questions and they were very blunt with him and obviously upset with him for his actions. This has been hard on the kids but I couldn't continue to lie to them. At one point early on one of them asked me if there was someone else involved and I said I didn't know, I felt soooo guilty for lying to them. I didn't want to admit it to them because I didn't want to believe it myself. I was actually releived after I told them, I didn't have to keep telling them "I just don't feel good" and them think it was my MS. All this stress has made the MS worse, the stress alone would make me sick without the MS. I have been very honest with the kids, when something has happened I tell them. Some people don't agree with that but you can't shelter kids from life and unfortunately this is part of it. Maybe they will learn something from all of this and not do the things their dad has done. I don't think they will ever trust him again totally and they have lost a lot of respect for him, so have I. He has to earn it back with all of us. He didn't just do this to me, he was tearing our whole family apart.
Tell the kids in an age appropriate way.

Farmwife, I have depression, His reason for having an affair, and it has been extremely hard on me. I cant imagine what you are going thru. Im praying for you

Yes I think you do need to tell your kids. why should we have to keep lying to them and then we feel worse. Its better for our kids for us to be healthy. we dont need the added stress of lying to them.

My son kept saying, before i told him, when are you going to let dad come home. WS did this, let them deal with the answer to that ? not BS.

Still,

Your depression did NOT cause the affair. That's what he'd have you believe. What I've noted from numerous conversations with LBS is that the betraying spouse often tries to "blame" the affair on us or the marriage. It's part of the rationalization process and fog they are in. Ultimately, while we may not have been perfect spouses and may well have contributed to a situation that made them more vulnerable to an affair it was THEIR choice. There are other, more mature ways, of dealing with unhappiness in a marriage.

-AlexEN

Farm,

Who else did you expose your husband to?

-AlexEN

I don't understand this reasoning. If they "find out" on their own, who will give them moral guidance? Isn't that the job of the parent? Usually if the BS doesn't give them the facts and give them moral guidance, the WS WILL give them her own brand of "morality," which leaves the kids morally confused. The WS will teach them that wrong is right.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

Tabby,

Thanks, this is a wonderful and succinct explanation of the merits of telling the children.

-AlexEN

Melody,

I'm new to these boards, have been posting at DB for awhile, where the approach seems much less direct. There some argue against exposure and against telling the kids (if they are too young) and that doesn't FEEL right to me...


I know many of the WAWs say don’t say anything and that that will only push her further away, but it seems so enabling (and deceitful to the children) to let her have her cake and eat it too.In the event they were to resent me and be angry with me for taking their mother off a pedestal, I look at it this way: Would I rather be resented for whitewashing the truth later (when they find out eventually) or for telling the truth now (that I want to our marriage and my wife does not)?

Telling them may be the only thing that could shake her from her fog, not that I want to use them as pawns, but because it’s important to me that my children learn to face up to their problems; they always have.

My IC concurred that if there were any chance that would bring her out of the fog, the “greater good” might be served by telling the kids, because he thinks the effects of D are devastating in circumstances like I am facing. I will tread very carefully in how I broach it with them, but I will not lie to protect her. What’s she gonna do… divorce me if I do?

I do think about the mother-child bond, but I also think about the father-child bond. I don’t want to be a doormat, that’s not a good example either. Besides, where I come from “owning up” to one’s mistakes is honored. I think if she did the “work” that was necessary and we could all forgive her, she would have that much more respect from them and from me. The female equivalent, I guess, of “manning up”!

I will gladly attest to all of my sins and faults, as I do NOT blame her for the entirety of what happened. I have forgiven the affair; I have more trouble with the fact that she will do nothing to reestablish trust or make any introspection on her part if BUT for the children and not me. I don’t need her anymore. I’m no longer wrapped up in her.

Come the new year, I will tell them, because I cannot go on living this “lie” in front of them. That hurts more than anything she has (or has not done), knowing that someday my children will know the truth and they will not know whom to trust (as I don’t want to be whitewashed or involved in a “cover up” just for her sake) is not the right "Ghost of Christmas Future".

-AlexEN

I see you've decided to tell the children. Good...

I've been on the back end as a kid and as a BH, and can tell you without a doubt that they know much more than either of you think.

Do not undersestimate the power of having your 13YO DD call her mother a sl*t right to her face.

She is in a fantasy... she has the kids, and nice home and a boy toy on the side, she has no reason to do anything but to keep dragging it on and work on turning EA2 into PA2.

Has your plan A been good? Without that plan B is useless because the last memory will not put you in a good light.

You sound very much like I did a year ago... over analysing every move looking for some sort of majic to make her snap out of it.

What made my DW snap out of it... reality! The reality of her children resenting her for the rest of her life, the reality that there was a good chance that her decision could not be taken back, the reality that friends and family would never treat her the same if deal with her at all...

If you what a good idea of Mark's genius, read my thread. It's long and emotionally exhausting, but you may see many similarities between your W and mine.

Alex,

I feel I am at the same point you are. W fantasy has carried over into he D papers (wanting EVERYTHING we have, just me not in it).

I have (finally) told her parents everything and will be telling the k's in the New Year.

Will it do anything? Like you, I need my k's to know (i) TRUTH - that lies and deceit are not the way to go in life, and (ii) I was willing to do whatever I could for my family.

I am with you on this.

Stay strong!

Hello Alex! You are getting great advice from the best! You were wondering if you should tell the children or not. I struggled with that also and you can read about it on my thread: "Affair with my brother has destroyed my family" by Jim_Flint. I have bumped it for you. I wondered if it was the right thing to do and although difficult MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD!!!

It allowed people to understand what in the world was going on both my kids and other family members. We also found a great deal of support from family and friends and friends here on MB.

It also allowed my beautiful wonderful confused wife to begin to regain her own integrity and to start living her life again as who she REALLY is rather than the person who thought she could never regain her integrity. It gave her the ability to START OVER WITHOUT HAVING TO HIDE WHAT HAD OCCURED!!!

She and I HAVE NEVER BEEN HAPPIER THAN NOW!!! Even when we first married it did not have the DEPTH of love we have now!!! We now know we can make it through anything together.

Keep posting and listen to what people here tell you. THEY ARE THE BEST!!!

God bless.

Jim

Alex, I am glad to see you have decided to do the right thing and tell your children the truth. To not tell them is gross dereliction of duty when there is an ongoing affair. Parents have a moral obligation to teach their children right from wrong and when they NEGLECT that duty to cover up for an adulterer, the child grows up profoundly morally confused. It does not make children secure to believe LIES about a bad parent. It just makes them utterly defenseless against their immoral teachings. NICE!

And if they don't find out NOW, and they watch your marriage falling apart without knowing the facts, they will learn that marriages are basically meaningless and can fall apart for seemingly no good reason. That is a CRIME to teach a child.

I assure you, if you don't give them the facts and give them moral guidance, YOUR WIFE WILL. She will teach them that WRONG IS RIGHT and teach them to doubt their instincts about right and wrong.

As a girl whose father was a liar and a cheater, I learned early on that I was a STUPID GIRL because my instincts about right and wrong were STUPID. Apparently, adultery was just fine even tho my instincts told me otherwise. I RESENT MY MOTHER FOR NOT TELLING ME THE TRUTH!

I can't tell you how damaging this gross NEGLECT was to me personally growing up. Growing up not knowing right from wrong is a severe handicap that caused me great hardship well into my adult years. it really sucks to have to learn right from wrong when you are 35!

[if anyone wants this segment on MP3, email me at ohmelodylane@aol.com and I will email it.

This is a segment that is sloppily and partially transcribed by me that was on the Dr Laura show. I thought Dr. Laura made some EXCELLENT and profound points about the effects of lying to children about adultery. I don't always agree with her views on adultery, but she is right on in this aspect.

Dr. Harley, as many of you know, is a strong advocate of telling the children the TRUTH.

Dr. Laura show [4:25 min into segment - 5-15-08]

Caller: Husband had an affair with good friend for 2 years. Her H ws one of his "buddies."

Dr. Laura: Do you have minor children?

Caller: Yes, we both do

Dr. Laura: They are willing to hurt your kids? Why are they willing to break up the families?

caller: Basically, they said they are not "happy."

Dr L: So that is the explanation for being willing to hurt their kids? They are doing this to be "happy?"

What can I do to possibly help you?

Caller: I need to know what to tell my kids.

Dr. Laura: THE TRUTH. They are breaking up 2 families because they have decided.....

See, I am not of the school where you stand by and do pretend with kids where this is all ok. Because this is NOT OK.

The most important story is that this is NOT OK. sit down with your husband and tell him you are going to explain to our children, in a factual, non hysterical way I am going to explain to the kids the horrible thing you are doing to destroy their family. That you are "not happy" is not sufficient reason to destroy 2 families and I am going to make this clear to them because I want them to grow up understanding this is WRONG.

That is my advice. And i think everybody should be clear this is selfish behavior that is WRONG, vows were made.

Not being "happy" is something you work to turnaround, not something you destroy a family over. If both of these people were to hear this was going to happen they will have second thoughts.

DO not think for a moment you are doing wrong by telling your children this. It is your moral obligation to teach them right from wrong. EVEN when it demonstrates a parent has done wrong. The parent cannot be whitewashed and get away with that - THAT IS WRONG and that does not teach the children

I really hope alot of people hear this. Alot of ppl want to whitewash what they are doing. Kids should know that is your attitude.

But to tell the custodial parent: hey don't make me look bad for my own selfish gain is ABSURD! and is EVIL! We are going to make wrong seem ok. Kids will lose any sense of right and wrong. Kids will be taught that anything is ok as long as it makes me "happy." Kids lose any sense of right or wrong. "well, it makes me happy to use drugs" when I am 12 It makes me "happy" to get on my knees and give 4 6th graders oral sex. That is what they teach their kids.

This is what happens when you whitewash wrongdoing to make no body feel bad which is why I get called MEAN. I get called mean because I say the truth. "Its MEAN to say something is right or wrong; its mean to make somebody feel bad!" Its MEAN to say the truth. People get shut down when they get called "judgmental" when they say the truth. The intent is to shut you down. Well, I don't shut up. Kids don't learn important truths when they allow others to shut them down. We don't help our children when we don't say the truth and support them in saying what is right and wrong.

I think nuclear exposure to everyone that would be in a position to pressure her to work on her marriage along with military grade surveillance of all her communication would be in order.

I think that you were doing a very good job of plan A, but that your plans were thwarted by contact w/ OM1 and OM2. If you can control her cell phone and email communication for 6 months (facebook is your enemy) while you are doing a good plan A, as well as exposing her the the consequences of her affairs (exposure, restricting her access to finances, etc), you may be able to kick this thing. If you can't do that anymore, then I would recommend a legal separation and plan B to put an end to her fantasies.

She hasn't left yet, so I don't think she will leave on her own without another OM to jump right to. I think that you can put the clamp down on her until her withdrawal is over and then plan A will start to get you places. However, it may be very taxing policing her for 6-12 months until you are sure this is out of her system.

Alex,

More in response to your question on my other thread...

The point of Plan A is to show the WW that her ENs can and will be met at home by her husband. In essence it is an effort to out affair OM. The hope is that there is enough positive history between you that she will consider returning to the marriage. What you have to keep in mind is that Plan A must be done without your own ENs getting met by her and usually with no acknowledgment from her that you are even making any progress.

One sign that you are having an impact is if she says that what you are doing is "Too little, too late..." This means that she has noticed the changes in you and understands that you are giving her what she wants and needs.

This won't make the affair end at once...

Might not make it end at all...

The whole idea of Plan A is to have a PLAN. It is a way for you to act rather than reacting to what she does and says. It keeps YOU focused on saving the marriage and helps you deal with the lack of response from her. You do what you need to do no matter what she decides to do...

Plan B is for when she is cake eating and won't leave you for OM and won't leave OM for you either. Under these circumstances, after a precise and well executed but short Plan A, you make arrangements to stop dealing with the affair and with her while she is in the affair.

In Plan B you need to have an intermediary set up that can pass information between you so that you have no contact with her at all. This intermediary needs to be someone who can be trusted to give you relevant information while filtering out the daily drama that WW is likely to try to lay at your feet since she will no longer have you meeting those ENs that you were meeting so well in Plan A and she will miss you. She won't say she misses you; she will try to get you to react to something so that she can have contact with you.

Plan B is normally begun with a letter called around here a Plan B Letter or just PBL. This PBL should be a love letter to your wayward wife, telling her that you love her but that you can no longer share her with OM. It should inform her that you will have no contact with her until the affair ends, but should also specify what you will require in order to attempt reconciliation once OM is out of the picture.

Your PBL should be a road map home for the WW and not a venting session. It should spell out exaclty what you will want from her if she decides to come home. Do NOT load the letter with pie in the sky hopes that you know can't happen because it will prevent her from even trying if the affair ends. But it must contain enough information that she can see a clear path she must take in order to be taken back. This must include NC with OM or any OM, and should probably include at least an agreement to attend counseling or follow some specific plan of recovery (MB is a good choice but talking to Jennifer of Steve to get real help is better than just using the forums alone or even the books and the forum together.

You might also require that you attend a MB weekend together before taking her back and you should basically make sure you will be getting what you will need in order to start real recovery. If you make it too easy, then she will have no motive to fix anything and will think that leaving OM and saying "I'm sorry" is all she needs to do. But is you make it too hard for her then she will not even consider returning to you once OM is gone and will just look for another OM instead.

Plan A is for you to fix your half of the marriage even if she isn't willing to work on her half. It allows you to act instead of reacting to her drama and infantile selfishness.

Plan B is so that you can be protected from her bovine excrement and keep a little in the old Love bank and save enough energy and will to work on the marriage for the day when the affair ends.

Plan A is for YOU.

Plan B is for YOU.

Neither one is for the WS...

In Plan A you fix you so that you are the best you that you can be and demonstrate it to her by your actions and not merely words.

In Plan B you allow your emotions to heal, unwind the entanglement with WW and establish a life of your own that does not depend on getting anything from her. You wait for the affair to end and her to do what you expect in order to return home until you get what you want or until you decide you no longer want her back no matter what. If after two years she is still not back then you move on with your life since statistically the A should be over by then.


If she isn't moving out and filing for divorce it is because that is not what she wants to do. She wants to cake eat. She wants you to do all that you do for her but at the same time she wants OM to do what he does for her. She doesn't want to give either of you up. She is trying to negotiate keeping both of you.

You must come up with a way to knock her off the fence.

It may require a legal separation, cutting off finances, a dark Plan B or maybe even filing for divorce.

Have you told her that you are not willing to share her with any OM and that you have no desire to be "friends" with her if the marriage fails? You don't have to avoid stating this kind of thing during Plan A you must just do it without screaming, shouting, swearing and making a complete a$$ of yourself. You tell her without love busters of any kind.


Mark

Here’s a more succinct version of my situation… I’m ready to expose and/or go directly to Plan B as I think I’ve been doing the equivalent of Plan A (ex- the stick) for quite some time (if not too long).

WW had a PA from September through November of 2007. It continued as an EA (OM is 1500 miles away) through beginning of March 2008 when she admitted to it and quit cold turkey (which was much harder for her than it was to him). I spoke with him in July 2008 when I suspected WW was back in contact with him. Turns out she was/is having a (denied) EA with man she effectively left for me when we were in College! (Her quote then: "He is a narcissist."). My quote now: “He's a hypocrite.” He claims to be pained by the topic of divorce (especially when kids are involved) as he is going through his own D right now and to have "no designs" on my wife (they were "together briefly, as kids"), yet he and she are in semi-regular contact and she put "D on the table" the day after a lengthy phone call with him last June (which I only learned of in October). He protests too much by saying he has never initiated a phone call or e-mail exchange with her, but a decent guy, supposedly grieving his own D, doesn't HAVE to respond EVEN IF that’s the case. She says since we're "psychologically separated" it shouldn't matter to me who she talks to... Nice logic. She has also said virtually everything to me on the list of what WW’s say. Coincidence of coincidences, he lives in same town 1500 miles away as OM1! Other than that, and the fact that there is no intimacy, we get along fantastically. Kind of makes me want to puke. The kids will be stunned when she tells them SHE wants a divorce. She wants us to go hand-in-hand, which I will not do, as she has “classically” redefined our history to make us out as “never having been right”. I recognize this as the fog (although I see some doubt its existence). Nonetheless, she is perfectly to script. She will not look at her own role in the demise of our M nor will she do any MC and her IC is geared toward how to “tell the kids” and make it as “amicable as possible”.

I saw a post where it was suggested that answers to the following would help the experts to help me assess the best course of action…

> quality of M pre-A – I readily admit to being a bad spouse pre-A; I took her (and our M) for granted; in my longer post I describe the work I’ve done on myself…
> children involved – 3; oldest (S) will turn 14 on 2/1 (he is bi-polar); middle-child (D) just turned 11 last week; and youngest (S) turns 9 on 5/7.
> length of M – We have been married 22 years, together almost 27 years.
> type of A – See above.
> length of A – See above.

I will NOT be a doormat to her and do not want to be an enabler for this second EA but, more importantly, I will not stand by if she chooses to recreate our history for the kids. At this point I am in it more for the kids’ sake than hers. Even if she said she didn’t want a D now, she’d have to do some serious work for ME to want a “new” R with her. I DO think they (the kids) deserve for us BOTH to work on OURSELVES to see if that can happen. In the meanwhile, here are my more specific questions, as I think I need to do more than just tell the kids in an age-appropriate manner why their mother wants a as part of a complete plan.

In terms of exposure:
> is there any reason to (or not to) expose to OM1W? I am quite certain that is over (and that he could cut it off cold turkey hurt her at some level);
> should I confront OM2 who already claims to have “no intentions” with my W and tell him he’s a hypocrite (per above). Many at the other board say that only elevates his stature. I understand that school of thought, but would like to hear the MB counterpoint (if it’s different);
> OM2 already going through his own D; is there any point of “exposing” (and to whom) even though they both deny that they are anything more than “friends” (though she has separate phone just for him). Should I remind him of PA1, though W says he knows;
> W’s parents very elderly (late 80’s) but will likely support their D, but they could surprise me (same with her half-sister). Should I be telling them about the ended PA or just the current EA?;
> Kids will be told in age-appropriate way; but, I have same question here, too; should they know about PA (which appears moot) or just the EA or a more generic “Mommy has talked to men in a way she should only talk to Daddy…” or something along those lines.

In terms of financial separation:

> Can anyone point me to comprehensive list of issues (e.g., credit bureaus, banks, credit card accounts, etc.) to consider in separating our accounts pre-legal separation and/or divorce?
> I will not leave our home, as this is D she wants, but I will be forced to give her very sizeable support and maintenance; if I “kick her to the curb” now, am I just enabling?

Lastly, to Mark’s question, I have told her that I am not willing to share her with any OM and that I have no desire to be "friends" with her if the marriage fails.

Thanks in advance.

AEN,

You've asked me to post to you a couple of times now so I feel that I should try to tell you something. My problem is that I really don't know what else to tell you.

If you want to save your marriage then you must make that a priority over just about everything else in your life. Of course you must balance this with making certain that the children are being taken care of and you are able to maintain a level of work at your job that allows you to keep your job.

Based entirely on your thread title it would appear that your main question is exposing to the kids and to that I would say that you should do so if you haven't as of yet. This needs to be done in an age appropriate manner of course and your son who is BP must be dealt with in a way that does not cause him to feel that it is his problem to deal with. Having raised a daughter who is BP I can sympathize with you on this one. It isn't so much the down times that can be scary but the manic episodes that create so much drama and uncertainty that you just end up exhausted most of the time. And waiting for the next crisis seems to be all you do with your life. You are either in crisis, dealing with the aftermath of a crisis or anticipating the next crisis.

But I understand that what you are really looking for is something you can do to make all this insanity stop and have your wife fully committed to you in the future.

And there is the real trouble, because you can't MAKE her do anything. The best you can do is to try to make yourself a better option than OM1, OM2 or any OMx.

Thus Plan A:

* Meet her ENs as much as she allows
* Avoid Love Busters
* Expect nothing in return from her

Here is where it gets sticky I'm afraid. You plan on doing this for some intense specific period of time and then you pull the plug on Plan A and start Plan B.

Plan B:

* You stop Plan A activities
* You separate form your wife
* You inform her of what you will require form her in order to take her back
* You relearn to live without her in your life
* You wait (again some specific amount of time) to see if she wakes up, extracts her head from her butt and really commits to the marriage.


Now here's the thing. Is your wife making moves to divorce you over OM2? Is she really carrying on a serious affair with this guy or is she in withdrawal, not withdrawal from the affair but a State of Withdrawal as defined by Dr Harley in his Three States of Mind In Marriage?

In INTIMACY we want to do things for the our spouse. We want our spouse to be happy and fulfilled even it it means that we sacrifice something to accomplish it. Our GIVER is in charge of everything we are doing in the relationship.

But eventually our TAKER comes to the party and demands equal time. We are now in a state of CONFLICT. In CONFLICT we no longer want to sacrifice. In fact we don't care if our spouse is happy or not. What we want is what WE want. Our TAKER is entirely in charge and we pretty much do whatever we want to do with no regard for the feelings of our spouse at all.

But if neglected long enough, our TAKER demands to be fed and we begin to look elsewhere for our ENs. Demands, anger and disrespectful judgments did not get what we wanted so we stop trying to get anything from our spouse at all. We basically don't care what anyone else wants and just take whatever we can get wherever we can get it.

Enter an affair. For most women this is usually an EA at least at first. ENs that were not being met are now getting the attention they demanded. But since these ENs are being met by OM and not her husband, a woman is attaching herself to OM while falling farther and farther away from you, her husband. It reaches a point where she feels as if she can no longer do without getting her ENs met by OM and this is an affair.

Most affairs turn physical at some point. Many women might be able to continue an AE for many years as long as their ENs of Conversation, Openness and Honesty etc are being met. But at some point the OM's TAKER jumps in and he wants HIS EN of SF met as well. If the State of Intimacy has been reached in this relationship, the woman will give SF because her GIVER will be willing to make that leap in order to make OM happy and keep him so that her ENs are still being met.

This is what you attempt to break during Plan A. You meet her ENs so that she does not need OM to meet them and so that your Love Bank balance is high enough that she feels the same way about you. The problem is to do it efficiently so that you can do it long enough to make progress because doing it in a half-a$$ed manner means that you will burn out, fall into a state of WITHDRAWAL yourself and no longer care about saving the marriage if it goes on too long.

Part of what makes an EA so dangerous is that it has the same effect on the marriage as a full blown PA. It undermines the marriage until it is no longer viable even if nothing in the way of sex is taking place. Since an AE is often so easy for the adulterer to justify by claiming that it is not an affair at all but merely a case of having a "friend" it still produces the same problems as if she ran off to meet with him every night after work.

Part of the solution to both an EA and a PA is to expose the affair to the light of day. Exposure is not merely to get someone to take your side against your wife. Your enemy is not your wife, it is the affair. What exposure does is to make the affair public so that people know what is going on and why the marriage is failing. Even those who will side with her will have a different attitude about the demise of the marriage once they know the truth. Even if they support HER and not YOU they will still have a different view of things than letting the WW spin the trouble between you. She is probably telling people that her "friendship" with OM has nothing to do with your marital troubles and is the result of your crazy jealousy and insane controlling tendencies.

So you expose to those involved in your life, her life and OM's life. OM1 probably is no longer an issue and I would leave his wife out of it for now, though if your marriage ever recovers, your W might wish to contact her at some point. I know that some will take exception to this because she has the right to know about the affair your wife had with her husband but right now your focus needs to be saving your marriage if that is your intent and I think that bringing OM1 into the mix right now would be less than productive.

That is not to say that OM1 should be avoided when exposing to her family and friends or yours. The children might not need to be involved in that right now, but if things go badly and you end up headed for divorce I would let them now that OM2 wasn't the first.

Don't know if that helps or not...

Mark

Mark,

Thanks, that is helpful... To answer some of the questions you asked...


Everything she has said indicates whe is making moves to divorce me. She claims NOT over OM2, but because she's DONE with me. I do NOT think she is carrying on a serious affair with OM2, but that she wants the freedom to see if there might be something there. She is definitely in Withdrawal as defined by Dr. H.


That is precisely my problem with this EA. It does seem as damaging as a PA as it prevents her from addressing HER and our R. As long as she gets E support elsewhere, our FAMILY has no chance. But, OM2 is in process of getting a D. Not sure how exposure to his XW to be does anything one way or another. Am beginning to feel like only possible exposure is "age-appropriately" to our own children. Was hoping for a more comprehensive exposure approach. So, I guess a basic question is whom else falls under this unbrella:


Her parents? Her half-sister? Our friends?

Do you know if there any posters who are well-versed in terms of how I should proceed with separating our finances pre-D without creating potential legal problems later?

Thanks,

A

That's what they ALL say, AEN. When confronted and after a couple days to think about it my wife said she wanted a divorce, saying "It has nothing to do with (OM). I just don’t want to be married to you any more." As if that was going to make me feel better about it…

The fantasy of the affair is what is driving her in her thought process. Not even the reality of it, merely the FANTASY of it all. She has justified it, perhaps beginning back with OM1 by telling herself that she is not in love with you, has never really been in love with you and could never really love you the way she should in order to remain married to you.

Now you know she has lied to you about other aspects surrounding the affair; why do you believe her when she says stuff like this?

OF COURSE the reason is the affair. If she had other reasons to leave you she would have done it a long time ago. If you were such a terrible husband, she'd have left you before there were any children involved. If she had no feelings for you she would have left you and not been having sex with you. If she was unhappy enough with the marriage to destroy it and tear apart your family and cause so much grief for your children, she'd have bailed because of her unhappiness. This isn't about being unhappy, it's about being in love with a fantasy that isn't even real.

Whoever might have any kind of stake in the relationship for any reason needs to be told. Anyone who might be able to challenge her spin of your "problems" in the marriage and that needs to know the truth should be told the truth.


Egg Zach Lee!

The affair IS the problem. In order to save your marriage, you must attack the affair!

The best weapon against an affair is the truth!


See a lawyer...You don't have to file for divorce to seek legal counsel.

Mark