Hi there everyone, hope your new year is going better than mine, and hope I can get some feedback on my situation. I have been married for 13 years, and have two girls aged 11 and 8. We have shown many of the classic signs of relationship issues, as emotional needs have not been met on both sides within our marriage, communication being the big one. We were so focused on doing all we can for our kids, we forgot to take care of the marital relationship. About a year ago, an event happened that made me totally re-examine the relationship, and I did a complete 180 in terms of how to work at the relationship. Unfortunately, my wife had been sending messages to me about a year before that things were not all that great, but I just didn’t pick up on them until it was too late. I admit to not being the best communicator out there, but I have honestly tried to improve myself and fulfill that emotional need with my wife. I have learned a lot from this website regarding all the other important emotional needs that are required in a relationship. I believe I am a much better communicator now. I have learned so much in the last year or so on what it takes to really have a successful relationship and be a great husband, I just wish I would have had the intuition to do this earlier.

Anyways, so as mentioned there are some issues in the relationship that the two of us have brought out in the open over the last little while. We have both agreed to try and fix things. I have been tirelessly working to do all I can to improve the relationship, but it seems at every turn, the wall my wife has put up around herself cannot be taken down. Knowing what I know now about relationships, I can totally understand why my wife has put up the wall. I realize it does not come down overnight, but I ran across a situation over the holidays I would like to get some feedback on. I have been suspicious over the last year or so that my wife has been up to something with another man, who is divorced with 2 kids of his own and is currently single. Our youngest girl is very good friends with one of his girls through sporting activities, and as such there is a lot of contact between my wife and the other man. I have noticed a new, disturbing behaviour in my wife over the last 6 months or so, where she will basically disappear to the bathroom a number of times over the course of a night when we are out socializing. Again this happened over the holidays, and got to the point where I was suspecting she was text messaging with “someone else”. So one night, I took a look on her phone, and there was a text message sent to the other man that said “Sweet dreams to you too….Have a good day tomorrow.” There was also an text acronym that I couldn’t figure out, but to me seems to be some sort of pet phrase. This happened when the other man was in the Caribbean on a vacation with his family. So I confronted her on this, and she said they are “just friends”, and that they have an awkward relationship due to the kids. She swore this was the truth, but I told her how uncomfortable and inappropriate it was. She agreed it was inappropriate, but again said they are just friends. Anyways, on New Year’s eve she did the classic run to the bathroom again, and I reviewed her text history, and saw she sent the other man a text just before sending me a text message. It is a daily thing, and I'm afraid it has probably been that way for a while.

I am totally messed up by this, and just wondering if there is any way that this sort of behaviour cannot be considered an affair? What can I do to get her to truthfully admit her adultery? My thoughts now are that the other man is the reason the wall between my wife and I cannot be taken down. I am almost at the point of telling her to leave me and go be with the other man, as the pain I am feeling is so deep and profound, I don’t know if I can ever trust her again. My family means the absolute world to me, but I just can’t imagine living through this type of pain.

Thanks for any thoughts or ideas....All the best, Marty....

Sorry you are here.

Yes this clearly sounds like adultery. Certainly emotional adultery and given the timeline, probably sexual as well.

Any other signs the past few months?

Lots of nail and hair care?
New clothes?
New, sexier panties?
Dieting or working out?
Change of interests?
Change of taste in music?

Check your credit card bills for the past few months.

Time to snoop deeper.


In what context is this contact?

Marty: Welcome to MB.com! Glad you are here. Please take some time and READ, READ, READ and read some more. Great information here.

That said, I guess the best advice I can give you is something I learned during both my WWs affairs (yes, two). My gut told me something was wrong and I resisted the urge, thinking I could trust her. In BOTH cases my gut was right...there was another man!

Trust your guts and do a little digging. Look at phone bills, look to text records, even dig around in e-mails. Be careful, as you might not like what you find.

Think about what you want from your marriage. This is going to sound harsh, but don't think of what's best for the kids, wife, extended family...what do YOU want to do? That was hard for me to fathom, but I really appreciated all the feedback I got here and I'm working on my marriage.

Read, read, read and read. And ask questions here. Lots of great advice from people who have experienced this stuff. Much better and more experienced people than me.

Hang in there!

Your best option is to hire a PI and have them followed for a week, see what happens. If you're not willing to do that (a PI costs a lot less than a divorce!), at least put a voice-activated recorder under the seat of her car, and install a keylogger on whatever computer she uses. Also get records of the text messages from your phone company. Best to build up a good bit of evidence before you expose, but don't wait too long, as it may progress to a PA if it hasn't already.

This is EXACTLY how I finally caught my H in his A. Wishing the OW a sweet night.

Men and women who are "just friends" DON'T wish each other sweet dreams. Period.

I second the continued snooping. Three words. CELL PHONE RECORDS. Prepare yourself. It is exceedingly difficult to see how many hours a WS can spend using a cell phone to call and text the OP. But also exceedingly NECESARRY.

You are in the right place. Keep posting. Experts will chime in to help soon.

Blessings,
WH2LE

Yes, it's an affair, and I'd bet a paycheck that it's not just flirty texts. If he's texting her during his Caribbean vacation, they're having sex.

Listen to these people, gather tangible proof of the affair (start with cellphone records and computer usage), then expose, expose, expose. His family, her family, teammates' parents, and coaches if necessary. See if they still think what they're doing is fun and adventurous when everyone knows.

Your child will lose a friend, but that isn't your fault.

Don't think for a second that the affair is your fault.



How suspicious does your wife think you are?

Marty, the way to resolve this is to get it out into the open. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so getting the truth and getting it out there will be devastating to the affair. You have to kill this affair in order to save your marriage. As long as the affair is going on, you can't possibly work on your marriage.

Now, asking her is not the solution. You need to independently find out the truth. That means hiring a PI to have her followed, checking her phone bill, tapping your phones, installing a voice activated recorder in her gas and/or installing a GPS on her car so you can track her whereabouts.

I would figure out the most likely time she would be meeting up with the OM and have the PI follow her during that time and get photos.

When you get the goods, come back here and we will help you best utilize this intel in a way that is most likely to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE. The advice we are giving here is with that purpose in mind.

But, you cannot move forward until you find out the truth. You will remain at a roadblock and her affair will become more and more entrenched until you take some action. And DO NOT even bother asking her. Just find out on your own and then come back here.

This contradicts what I just posted, but:

Personally, if I really thought there was a chance they hadn't had sex yet, I would not wait to intervene, even without proof. I'd make it up if I had to, for the purposes of exposure. Forget waiting for your wife to confirm your suspicions, and proceed as if you have proof. Assume you are correct...this isn't a court of law. You already know the relationship is inappropriate. That fact by itself is grounds for a husband to step in and take action.

If I had stopped my wife's affair before they had sex the first time, this whole thing wouldn't be half the nightmare it is now.

It's probably a BH thing, but the pain is all about the sex for me.

Texts? Emails? Bah.

If only I could've prevented the sex...

Get online and check your phone records.
Check your credit cards.
Check her purse and or briefcase.
Search the house.
Search her car.
Search the dressers.

They like to keep souvenirs.

Stay cool. Don't let her suspect you of doing any of this. Don't take weeks to do this. Do it now.

Does she work outside of the house?

If he doesn't investigate and get the goods NOW before accusing, the affairees will go further underground and it will be much harder to get the truth. The longer it takes to get the truth, the farther off recovery is. If he confronts without evidence, he is just showing her his poker hand. better to get the goods now while the getting is good and THEN tip his hand when he has a full house.

Secondly, if this is an affair, and I think it is, it has been going on for a year. I doubt it is not already physical given her emotional attachment to this man.

chrisner is right. Don't tip your hand without the goods. You will lose your opportunity to get the goods.

Maybe I'm more off-kilter than I thought, but I'd give her and/or OM one chance to confess before I began exposure. That would include the parents of the other kids on his daughter's team. There's always next season, and another team.

Maybe I'd save exposure to the two lovebirds' families for when I had proof, but everyone else should be fair game right now.

Oh yeah, that's an affair alright. My FWH had an emotional affair with a woman in another state. Cyber sex over text, she sent him a mostly nude pic phone calls....

"The goods" are worthless, unless he really is unsure about the cheating, or if he lives a "fault divorce" state.

He knows she's cheating, he can get his hands on phone records, nothing else should be required...unless he's already thought of as a nutjob or something.

If he really thinks (or has convinced himself) they haven't slept together yet, time is of the essence.

I would've set a schoolbus full of orphans on fire and pushed it off a cliff if it would've prevented my wife from having sex with another man.

But that's just me.

Disagree, Krazy, he has nothing but alot of texts right now, which is being dismissed as a "friendship." He has nothing. He has already presented what he has and she has denied. It is worthless.

How would he know if he doesn't investigate? This makes no sense.

His intel about alot of texts has already been presented and it has stopped NOTHING. I am not getting why you think doing the same thing AGAIN would stop anything? How do you figure?

Secondly, in order to kill the affair he has to bring it out into the open. He has nothing to BRING OUT. He knows nothing. He has nothing to expose.

He needs to get the goods FIRST and then confront. Accusing without any information is strategically stupid because it only drives the affairees further underground and makes it harder to get the goods. Accusing without any information is a waste of time that helps no one.

Exactly the same thing happened to me. I noticed long "bathroom breaks" for several months. I had dreams about H having an affair with her and asked him point blank 3 times if they were having an A and he denied it. He didn't admit it until I saw a series of emails (8/11/08) which were undeniable. The most painful things I have ever read. Even then he tried to deny it.

BTW, if there are acronyms you don't know (mwah, lymy..) you can google them and get a dictionary of text acronyms.

He also said when I found out "I was just now going to break up with her". Lie... Later, "there is no baby". Lie, there were twins age 7 and she was pg again but had a spontaeous miscarriage. Oh, and they had an apartment too.

Get a GPS for the car. I learned a lot. You can get one you hide and download to your computer. Cheaper than a PI. You can Google the address and get a street view. Thats how I found the apartment. I paid $200 but I saw them at Sam's Club for $80.

This is a no-fault divorce state so it doesn't matter whether there was a "fault" for divorce. You need to find out what the truth is. You can't deal with this until you know. Sorry, but I thought my H was the most honest, trustworthy, wonderful man in the world...

Don't let them know you are tracking them until you are sure. You can keep track of her excuses and compare with the GPS records. It is for your piece of mind. And you have every right to do it, your vehicles are likely legally jointly owned and you have a right to know where your property is.

Does anyone know how to get the phone records?

I wonder if he truly is divorced...

What single man goes to the bahamas with his family...that doesn't include at least a girlfriend...

I was thinking the same thing. And if he is separated, etc, did this affair cause it? But I can't imagine a single man taking 2 kids on caribbean vacation. That is just bizarre. There is a lot going on here that needs to be flushed out.

Marty,
Speaking as a FWW, this is definitely an affair. I have no doubt that it is physical. As the saying goes, it takes one to know one. While I understand Krazy's point completely, I just know that this A is what it is.

What exposed my A was I accidently called my H while I was in OM's car. I hit the call button on my phone when I leaned up against something. We were on our way to lunch and I called my H and left a message on his voicemail and didn't know it!

That afternoon, my H called me at work and asked where I had been because he tried to call me at my desk. I lied and told him that I was at my desk, but I was talking to my mom on the phone.

When he confronted me with the evidence that I was with the OM, I told him that we were just friends but I knew that he didn't appreciate our friendship, so I lied about going to lunch with him. That was my excuse.

Inside I knew that it was all going to come to a head soon. By this time, I wanted to stop the lies. I was contemplating suicide by this time too so that I could get out of telling him.

That night, my H didn't talk to me at all. He was furious that I lied to him and he didn't want anything to do with me. The next day he spent the afternoon on his motocycle, just blowing off steam. When he got home, he confronted me again. His exact words were, "Stop talking to me like I'm some kind of idiot. Why don't you tell me what's going on?"

That's when I told him I was having an affair. I've never seen anyone in so much pain as I did that night. I wished that I could put my arms around him, but he pulled away from me every time. My husband has been to war, he's been shot at, and he has had a lot of loss in his life, but this hurt worse than anything.

I was ready to end my affair when it was exposed. As Dr. Harley explains, most affairs die a natural death. If your wife's affair isn't nearing the end, she will deny all of your confrontations because she isn't willing to let it go yet. That's why melody is right about getting all of your evidence first.

I hope this helps Marty. Good luck to you and God Bless. I pray that God will intervene.

-MrsZ

Before I jump in on this one with Krazy, I think I'll wait to see if Marty actually comes back and has what it takes to take the difficult ACTIONS that will be necessary ... or if he is just one of the hit and run BH conflict avoiders who would rather just play "ostrich".

Wow, I am overwhelmed by the responses already. Thank you all so much. I don't want to say I was in denial, but the truth just hits me so hard and it is really crushing me, almost crippling me. Yes, the other man divorced about 6 or 7 years ago, and unfortunately his ex-wife passed away soon after. She came down with cancer, and had a brief battle. He had another 3-4 year relationship, but cut that off about 2 years ago. This guy is a multi,multi-millionaire, and I make an honest working man living working in the public sector. Impossible to compete for sure. Hello David vs. Goliath. I forgot to include these details when I had my initial rant, sorry, there's lots of emotion right now. Also, she said that their relationship started because of all the pain he has gone through with the divorce, flood of his mega-house, and the fact that his kids don't have a mom. A crying shoulder in some respects. I guess maybe she wants to fill that void with him to perhaps ease his pain, and get the benefits at the same time. Go figure!!!

She has changed a number of things about her appearance. One thing I recalled after the first post is that I have monitored her internet use quite a bit recently. She doesn't have the saavy to clear what I can see, but I did find a search she performed that asked "Why women cheat". So taking that into the equation, it seems pretty overwhelming. Also, I don't recall seeing very many credit card and phone bills over the last while.

Over the last two nights, I have got my hands on the cellphone bills online, and have started analysis. She is hiding her phone every night, but I am finding it. I may have screwed up a bit, as she is now deleting the inbox and outbox. However, I can still tell she is texting him based on other means. I am going to contact the phone company to see if it is possible to get transcripts. I am at the point right now to confront her for what may be the last time about the affair. I will continue to get any piece of intel.

Wow, totally overwhelming at this point. I've always put my family before myself as that is the kind of guy I am, and find it hard to put myself first. What I want is a honest, happy, contented and loving relationship with a women. At this point, I just can't fathom fixing things, but as some of the posts mentioned, there is a chance for this to be fixed. I pray for peace in my heart, as it feels like pounding out of my chest.

Thanks again everyone, I truly appreciate your thoughts!!!!

Rich, huh?

Then he may not appreciate having his name dragged through the mud. That would probably bother him much more than, say, a "regular guy" like you and me.

Don't back down just because he has money. Do you happen to live in a state with Alienation of Affection laws?

Damn, Krazy ... we are thinking alike.

Marty,

You now find yourself at WAR ... and part of that is looking for any weaknesses in your opponent. His wealth and "standing" in the community may be just the weakness you need, "IF" you want to try to salvage your M.

However, THAT is YOUR call ... no one will think any less of you if you choose to go straight to Plan D ... as the BH, you have earned the right to make that decision for yourself.

This group is great, if you can reveal your state of residence, we can tell you if there are "Alienation of Affection" laws on the books in your state ... if so, OM may have to pay dearly for his fun.

Well, the texting is one bad sign, but what about her daily schedule? Does she work? Any unexplained absences, trips, overnights?

My WW sold it as a friendship. Once she started "hiding' the friendship, I came down hard and found out.

If you confront before having some evidence, they may just deny and go deeper underground.

There are threads here about catching WS, digital audio recorders, GPS trackers, PIs, keystroke loggers.

My bust was with a keystroke logger -- easy enough if she is using a PC and not a cellhone all the time.

If there are times of the day you suspect they hook up, that is easy enough too...

I was in your shoes in August, bud. Gutwrenching. Get on some anti-deps, exercise, watch the booze, keep your kids interests at heart. If you get blow up the affair, it really does get better, like a half of a percent a day.

If she already admitted it was "inappropriate" can you attack there?

I'm with Krazy and Myrev.

No man will jeopardize his cash for a poor married woman.

Start researching his business activities. Is he a lawyer, doctor, professor? Great workplaces to expose!

Do it soon.

She was a stay at home mom until about 3 years ago. She has done some painting on the side, but that job is too physical in nature and is not a long term option. I have not forced her to go find any other type of employment, as I truly understand and appreciate the role of being a mother. I was in the process of starting up a side business to help the family's bottom line, but I can't focus on that at all right now, given my state of mind. Definitely some stress these days for a single income family, but again our kids were our focus. She does have all sorts of flexibility during the day, and I work about 25 minutes away in another town. So there is some ample opportunity for stuff to happen.

Hi again Marty,
Your ww's patterns are so familiar. However, I used to delete the explicit text messages and keep the tame ones so that it appeared that we were just friends. I also kept my phone in plain sight, but only after I did some text file management. One time I even showed him my messages to "put his mind at ease."

Turns out that my husband compared my text messages to the AT&T bills and he found some huge gaps. I would save one message for every ten, basically. He tried finding a way to get the transcripts, but wasn't successful.

One thing I also did was, once I knew my husband was getting suspicious, I went more underground and I texted the OM from my work computer. That's why there was a sudden decline in text messages on our bill.

I know everyone here must think I'm Satan.

Does your wife have a computer at work?

-MrsZ

Personally, I think it's great that you are willing to put this in print to help someone else.

Hey MrsZonie I think it's great to have your perspective.

I found this tidbit after the fact.

There is a 'location' setting on supported cell phones, that for a small monthly fee,
the location of that cell phone can be tracked via the phone co. to your computer on their website.

This is through Bell in Canada, not sure where you are located.

It requires a return text and password so before you do it let me know in a post, on your thread.

Take care

I'm with Verizon Wirelss. I have the master account and the kids and wife are subset of mine. I get all the phone number of calls and texts in an online report every month on the tenth.

OM hid his number to "restricted" right before d-day, but before that I could see 8-10 calls per day, so....busted.

Marty, if she is spending time on the home computer and clicking off when you enter the roon, put in a keystroke logger. It sits in the background, captures every keystroke, snaps screenshots, and logs websites visited. You can get passwords too.

Expect to be sick if it is an affair. The first "darling" made me puke...

We are with Bell up in Canada as well, so I'll look into that option as well. Any idea if we can get numbers where the texts are coming from and going to? I have downloaded the bill, but it doesn't show anything at this point. Thanks all....

You can log into your account online and check I believe.

My husband checked on my messages through my AT&T account online. He couldn't see the content of the messages, but he could see who the messages were going to and coming from. That's what he used to compare to the messages that were left on the phone.

Hi, Marty.

Like MrsZ, I too, am a FWW. Let me share some tricks I incorporated...

I left my cell phone out in the open more after deleting incriminating texts to show I had nothing to hide, but I made my phone password protected once I turned it off so that "the kids can't just pick it up and make random calls to who knows where." The reality was if I hadn't removed FOM's texts and wanted to save them a bit longer, I didn't want H to see them and wanted control over when he had access to it.

I kept computers on but would clear their histories because I wanted to make sure "the kids didn't stumble upon something inappropriate" so "it's easier to just clear everything after each use."

My computer was password protected because my kids like to get online and I needed to make sure "they didn't use my work computer and do something inappropriate."

I needed to start paying my cell phone bill because I was "checking phone plans and needed to see if/how we could save money" because I was texting more than ever. You know, trying to "save money".

My FOM had a long-distance business line into his home where the plan had unlimited minutes. He had his work extension forward to this direct business number. I'd call the work number and go through his extension so my H would see only the work number if he got a hold of my cell bill, not the extention or the direct number of the FOM. (I called a lot to work so these would have explainable.) The FOM then called me on my work number and no one would be the wiser. His bills were the same every month.

We'd send attachments and notes only in emails so we could keep everything on a web-based email account such as Hotmail, Gmail, or Yahoo. That way if H or FOM's W ever did get into our computers, they still wouldn't find anything because they wouldn't know the password to get into the email accounts. And then we could also email from anywhere there was Internet -- at work, at conventions, from my parent's house...

FOM and I would IM through a free IM program, not through work IM. We had code words to ensure the recipiant on the other end was the WW, and not the BS. That way, just in case the program was left logged on, we wouldn't divulge something mistakenly to the wrong person.

The FOM's W suspected things for a few months before their D-day and he had an excuse everytime she accused him with accusations confirmed only by her gut. FOM didn't cover himself one time -- he downloaded an email from me to his new mobile phone, he didn't delete the message, his W used the phone, she snooped, and had the tangible proof he couldn't deny.

I agree with all the others -- get evidence first. WWs are good at hiding, lying, and denying. You can't have an A without those skills and disregard for your spouse's concerns. Get the gizmos, the keylogger, track, and get what you need. My wish is that you're wrong. But sadly I believe your gut is right. As MrsZ states, it takes one to know one.

Good luck, Marty. Stay strong.

I agree with Krazy on this.

I confronted my wife after finding 1 text message (from OM). If I came to MB with that scant evidence, doubtless I would have been told to snoop. Instead I confronted immediuately and she confessed.

Had I left it while I snooped and gathered evidence, she would have been sleeping with OM.

I personally believe evidence is overated if you KNOW what is going on.

By all means get more evidence but I would not let that stop me from proceeding with some exposure. Action baby YEAH!!

Hey Marty

Since this sitch is similar to mine, I agree to confront and expose assuming an affair is going on with only the evidence you have. I do believe you have enough though that something inappropriate is going on.

I confronted immediately which I know prevented any further physical contact, I had an advantage of there being a fair distance between WH and OW. You do not have that advantage.

If I had waited until they met up again, it would have certainly gone from sexual contact to sexual intercourse, further damaging myself and WH, and the whole process thing to follow. (yeah I know long sentence)

Better to feel like a raving fool than someone who regrets not taking action sooner.

Continue to snoop and gather.

This will be the most frustrating. Up here in Canuck land, we actually make it very easy to have an A.

You will not be able to see the # where a text is sent or recieved from on any bill, paper or online. The date and time is all you will see.
You will also not be able to see the # of an incoming cell call, only the location of the tower being used to transfer that call.

If a cell phone is on a text messaging plan, like say unlimited texting for $10/mos. there will be no record of any texts b/c they are in the plan.
If the phone plan has for example 20 texts for $5/mos. the bill will only show the amount of texts above the 20 that is on the plan.

Cheaters have rights too, don't you know.

I found, by accident, on my H cell (which he was not aware of) a folder that holds recent text messages sent and recent text recipients. On H phone these could not be deleted, only moved to the bottom and thrown out as more texts were sent.
It is in an option mode in 'send a text'

If you already know about this, that's great, if you need more info I can further explain it.

Once I googled 'How to cheat and not get caught' you wouldn't believe the info I found there (sickos who made that list) but I used that and worked backwards.

Snoop, snoop, snoop, snoop!

I had that gut feeling about another man, but sadly convinced myself that I

a. trusted her...she would never do this AGAIN
b. didn't really want to know...stuck my head in the sand

Day after Christmas I get her off to work then head to computer for some e-mail. Her hotmail account left open, so I look for mail from one of her friends who went through affair+pregnancy, divorce, etc.

I see mail from him and read...and at the end he says something like "don't get divorce unless you really have to. find out what you are feeling." My heart sank because I knew right then and there the other man existed! More e-mail searching yeilded incriminating e-mails to her friend and the OM.

Fortunatley the OM ended contact about month before DDay, so she was in withdrawl and already starting to work on our relationship.

Get a keylogger! They rock. And you can install them on her work computer and have logs sent to your e-mail. Find the phone records.

Hang in there! We are with you. We support you.

This is a hard time...you are at war with the WW, the A, and trying to show all the love you can with the W and repairing your M. There are just not enough hours in a day...and it takes a herculean effort.

YOU CAN DO IT!! Are you Plan A'ing to your satisfaction?

Thank you everyone for your input, support and feedback. I feel I am so, so alone right now, and I don't wish these feelings upon anyone else in the world. Perhaps I have to change my approach a little bit, like the post above alludes to, it does feel like I am at war right now with some many things. These feelings are very new for me, as I am an active member of our community and give a lot back in the way of volunteering my time and efforts for kids in our area to make their world and our world a better place.

Last night was a bit weird at the house. Yesterday was the first day in 2.5 weeks I was not around the house. In the evening, she showed a little bit of affection for the first time in what feels like months. Nothing major, just a little (and I mean 5 minutes)cuddle time watching TV with the kids. To me, it was almost surreal, which is very sad to say. Anyways, when I was driving to work this morning, it dawned on me yesterday would have been the first time in a while that my wife would have "potentially" had time alone with the OM. First day in a while that there wasn't a text sent between them, and she was "at home" all day without kids. I think you can see where I'm going with this, and it truly makes me want to vomit. She was the same this morning, she actually went out of her way to give me a good bye kiss. That is the first time in ages as well.

This morning, I started to document the things I've noticed over the last year with the OM (I'll catch on to more of these acronyms at some point), and now have a documented list I'm looking at. The title of this thread is so appropriate!!!!

Is it a good idea to mention that I've bounced my observations in an internet forum, and the feedback is pretty unanimous that it is an A. Just to set some sort of context of her inappropriate behaviour? I don't think I need anymore evidence to confront this once and for all. My personality is not confrontational at all, but you all have given me strength to really get to the bottom of things here. We had an initial conversation about the sweet dreams text, but she dug her heels in that this is just an "awkward" friendship. My heart and gut just tells me this isn't the case, and I deserve the truth.

Have a great day everyone!!!

I just started reading through some of the Plan A & B posts. Very interesting stuff. I guess I'm not totally sure where I am at. I want the affair to first be acknowledged, and then I want it to end immediately so we can try and repair the marriage. I just feel I can't go on trying to repair the marriage while I have these extremely strong impulses in my gut and heart that there is an A going on.

There's no point going to Plan A unless you are going to expose. Are you?

Internet Forums do not carry any credibility with WS's. Do NOT mention this to her. You need this as YOUR safe place to get ideas and strategies.

You need to SPY. You need to know what you are really up against.

And change your thinking on the "quick fix" idea.

It is an affair. You cannot start to fix anything unless you face what is going on.

It is an affair.

My WH looked me straight in the eye for 4mos., swore on the bible (literal sense) that this was a friendship and no sex had occurred, despite suspicious texts ect. I had no concrete evidence of sex either.

WS lie through their teeth.

WH only came clean after being cornered by a polygraph.

If your best buddy came to you with your same concerns what would you think is going on ??

It is an affair.

Realize it now, not next month.
Continue to gather facts, make copies of relevant documents, letters, and don't throw anything out. Things that you find now that don't make sense, may make sense later.

I found that the more proof I had, it was like ammo when confronting and exposing.
It gave me confidence that I wasn't crazy.

You can do this, you can do this for your family.

I will do it again, as I did confront after I found out about the sweet dreams text. She had downplayed it, but I can't go on in the relationship until I bring it up with her again. In hindsight, I should have done more intel to get a bigger "list", but the emotion of the situation moved me to the first attempt to expose.

What is your plan when she denies it again?

Exposure means telling everyone ELSE about the affair, not your wife. Her parents and siblings, best friends, cousins, coworkers whom you know, pastor...anyone who will look at her with disgust once they find out. And you do the same with the OM and his family/friends/etc. Have you done this?

Marty,
When my husband confronted me the first time, his evidence was just the sheer amount of texting that went on. He confronted me over the phone while I was at a 3-day seminar about 3 hours from our house. Mr Z was convinced the OM was with me (he even tried to sneak over to where I was but couldn't because he was taking care of our daughter). It was easy for me to deny the affair because the OM wasn't with me at that time. I found that it was easier to lie when I was confronted about a specific event that didn't occur.

Once I knew he was suspicious though, I went underground. I wanted to protect what I had, so I did whatever I could to remove suspicion.

There are different types of WS's, some of us are cake eaters. I was one of those. I think your wife might be the same way. She wants to stay married to you, but she wants to keep the OM in her life. I know this is killing you.

Over time, my conscience was really getting to me and I was feeling worse and worse about the lies, and I started to get sloppy about covering my tracks. So, after I made that "accidental" phone call, I was ready to talk. Mr Z didn't have a lot of evidence, but he knew what was going on. When he confronted me that last time, he was very confident. He didn't ask, "are you having an affair?" instead, he said, "Stop talking to me like I'm an idiot. Why don't you tell me what's going on?" I simply couldn't deny it anymore. But, the key here is, I was ready to talk.

We don't know where your wife is at, is she getting ready to give it up? Is her conscience starting to get to her? It's hard to say. If you confront her without that confidence in your conviction, she will easily deny. So you have to be absolutely certain, thus the snooping.

Even though my husband Mr Z was confident about his conviction, he still was in shock when I confessed. He told me it was the most painful moment of his life.

God bless Marty. I hope this helps.

-MrsZ

I guess right now, I don't know what to say or do when she denies again.

If it's only an "awkward friendship", then she should have no problem ending all contact with him, should she?

Better yet, ask her for his phone number so you can call him and set up a "friendly" meeting between the three of you. Just a friend...no problem, right?

As a matter of fact, since he's such good friends with your wife, it stands to reason that you and he would get along quite well. Would she mind if you invited him out for a few beers sometime?

Ask her that stuff, then watch for the puddle of urine at her feet.

Marty,
That's why you need to be confident in your gut feelings if you decide to confront before you have hard evidence. I know you want to get this over with. I encourage you to keep snooping, but I know this is eating you alive.

Let's make a list of what we do know for sure:

1. Your wife is, (at the very least) in an emotional affair. The evidence is
a) She frequently sneaks off to the bathroom to text another man while she is out with you. There is a pet name acronym used (what is it, by the way)? and a note about "sweet dreams"
b) She has developed a deep, emotional bond with another man where she eases his pain through difficult times (I did that as well, btw). She did all of this behind your back
c) She hides her phone from you and deletes her messages

2. Your wife is (at the very least) thinking about cheating.
The evidence is
a) She did a Google search on "why women cheat"

Is this enough evidence to make you feel confident that she is in a physical affair?

The sweet dreams text ended "BD", so I don't know what that stands for....That list does cover what is undeniable. The last couple confirmed text messages sent were when I left the house to attend a practice for the team I am coaching.....The problem with texting up here in Canada is that I can't retrieve messages from the bill that my wife has been hiding. I can only see when the last text was sent to the OM by the contacts listed in her phone. My heart is still trying to somehow deny the PA, but the evidence is suggesting otherwise.

SIM card reader. If you can get ahold of her phone you could download all of her deleted texts (goes WAY back....)

Voice activated recorder. If they talk, you could capture her side of the conversations...

You need to SPY.

And start preparing for your next steps.

Plan A and Exposure.

Who would you expose this affair to? Start making a list.

And get busy meeting ALL of her emotional needs. It sounds like you need more contact with her thoughout the day.

Martin
Knowing what I know now, you really do have enough to confront her again. I went through the same thing.....the friend thing.

It's hard, it bites, it sucks the big one, really no words to describe how devastating this is. We all understand the shock too. Accept that these are normal feelings and now you must be your WW's knight in shining armor. Someone has to save her, she cannot do this herself. (sorry if this sounds kind of sappy, can't think)

One bluff that I didn't follow through with, it was shortly after D-Day and I simply did not have the balls for it, one more regret....

WH was so insistent that they were only friends I said " ok let me have your cell phone, I will text her something like....when can we meet again I miss you or the last time we were together it was electric and let's see what she texts back"

Then there was silence and that look....a deer caught in the headlights, finally he said "ok do it"

I didn't, I figured I had my answer but I actually didn't have his. I kick myself for that one.

I have since acquired balls.

Yuck. There are a number of BHs here who feel that Plan A should not be used by a BH on his WW.

Although it might work some of the time, in the meantime you are sharing her with another man. Can you live with that? Will you ever be able to look at her without disgust again? Do you want to peck her on the lips and wonder (or worse, know) where they've been? What is your dignity worth?

The alternative to Plan A is The Ultimatum: End the affair right now, or get the F out, and don't come back.

You'll find proponents of both plans on this forum.

Where can you pick up a sim card reader here in Canada (Alberta), I know that will tell me a whole bunch.....

Marty if your service provider is Bell the network they use is a CDMA network not GSM like their competitors. CDMA phones do not use a sim card so the reader will not be an option for you.

regards

tmi57

Yuck. There are a number of BHs here who feel that Plan A should not be used by a BH on his WW.

Although it might work some of the time, in the meantime you are sharing her with another man. Can you live with that? Will you ever be able to look at her without disgust again? Do you want to peck her on the lips and wonder (or worse, know) where they've been? What is your dignity worth?

The alternative to Plan A is The Ultimatum: End the affair right now, or get the F out, and don't come back..........quote from Krazy




The problem I see with your view Krazy is that Marty really wants to save his marriage, at this point. Your reluctance to Plan A and your alternatives may backfire on him.

It's weird, as long as my WH con'd to deny anything physical, I found Plan A not that hard to do, even though my gut told me otherwise. I had no concrete proofat that point.

Look at it right now as a competition with the OM. Marty, you coach a sports team, hopefully a rep one.

Marty should start Plan A.

Marty;

I had to add this: even if this A is not physical (although it probably is), it is still an addiction. Think about the stories you hear about drug addicts sneaking off to the bathroom to get their fix. It’s not much different than texting an affair partner. Contact with a lover gives a bio-chemical sense of euphoria and it lasts for awhile until she needs another hit. That’s why there is no other way to end an affair (for her anyway) unless it is exposed. The OM can end it, but he likes what it’s doing for him, and he’ll keep it up as long as she’s willing. I believe affair partners are like crack dealers and they get off on the control.

If you confront now before she is ready to confess, she will deny it again. However, if she’s anything like me, it will eat away at her. Each time you confront her, you are forcing her to lie again. Eventually, she might crack.

Does your wife have a samsung or motorola phone?

There are readers for those phones that don't rely on the SIM card. They read the internal memory of the phone.

This stuff isn't the same for a BH.

If I had found out (or if I DO find out) that my wife slept with OM ONE TIME after I busted them, I would divorce her immediately. I at least have that much dignity and self-respect left.

I feel like I'm halfway to having a vagina for taking her back as it is...Plan A? Might as well give me the high heels to match my purse.

It is degrading to a man. You might save your family, but at what cost to yourself?

No, it is an LG Rumour, and I just checked the specs and there is no sim card in it. I found a company, brickhouse security that has the ideal device. I wish I could use it, as I know that would tell the story....

I agree with post above from MrsZ that it is like an addiction. We do watch intervention on TV, so that is a context WW should be able to relate to....

Krazy,

It appears that none of the BW's understand what you describe and painfully few of the BH's ... but for those of us who do ... WE BELIEVE IT WITH EVERY FIBER OF OUR BEING.

Marty,

Honest question ... what is your gut reaction to knowing that your WW is having an affair with OM?

There is no right and wrong answer ... we are all wired differently.

...but, IN YOUR GUT ... are you more tempted to draw a line in the sand and end the A immediately, even considering the risk of driving her into the arms of OM?

... or, IN YOUR GUT ... are you more inclined to give her time to come to her senses and pick up the pieces from there?

There are two distinct camps here at MB concerning how BH's should proceed and the main determining factor is the BH's personality ... so like I said ... there is no right or wrong answer ... just which way Marty feels more comfortable.

You see, I am EXACTLY like Krazy. I just KNEW that I loved my WW, but there was NO WAY IN HE11 that I was going to SHARE her with ANYONE, regardless of the risk of ending our M. I would MUCH rather be divorced than disrespected further, and still fully believe right down to my soul that I acted appropriately on D-Day, 18 months ago.

However, there are other BH's who believe that they were just as correct to suck it up and wait out their WW's ... and likely, we were BOTH correct.

They wouldn't be able to live with themsleves if they had pushed their WW's away, and I wouldn't have been able to live with myself if I had allowed the A to continue "with my knowledge" ONE SECOND LONGER.

Just let us know what your thought process about the matter is, and we'll try to help you from that perspective.

Rev,
Brilliant summary!

Mr Z is just like you and Krazy. He wanted the hard evidence, but he was right about his gut feelings and he was sick of being made a fool of. Also, Mr Z is a war veteran, and I was sickened by my own disrespect towards him.

I wonder if Marty's wife feels that way too, since he is a charitable, upstanding guy. Maybe her better self will come through in the end. Let's hope!

My honest gut opinion is the first one, hands down. I can't tolerate any sharing of someone I love. I am a very proud, loyal man, and I have taken a great deal of pride in taking care of my family as best I can. Sure, I am nowhere near perfect, but I know what my shortcomings are and am absolutely working towards correcting these to ensure I can better meet my WW emotional needs. I've hit a bit of a snag now since "the text", but until that point I was busting my buns doing all I can to get the R headed back in the right direction. When I am strictly looking at the husband/wife side of it, I am very serious in either stopping the A immediately or risk a quick and decisive end to the relationship (I still have trouble using the D word). The only problem though, at least at this point, is the fact we have kids and that is always part of the thought process. I know anyone who has kids can relate to how deep your love is for them. But I guess I have to learn to take that out of the equation or at least take a wider look at the whole picture.....

This is easy for me to say, but remember that couples with kids get divorced all the time, and everyone survives.

Well survival is the bear mimimum Krazy.

Many studies say they thrive in an intact family. An intact family is the best option.

Sweet Dreams, Baby Doll. ???

Did you ask your W what it stood for?

Might be interesting to ask her now, and see how long it takes her to answer it.

Marty,

I know kids complicate the situation. However, we've seen multiple BH's try to R "for the sake of the kids" and what happens is they condemn themselves to a life of limbo he11, while they stuff their feelings down and WW continues to disrespect them for years.

Eventually it all blows up anyway, and instead of the kids having a relatively stable life, with two relatively sane but SEPERATE parents, they are forced to live in an environment where the two people they love most hate each other ... not healthy at all.

So YES, for the purposes of this situation ... you need to take the kids "out of the equation". Your WW has already effectively left the family ... if she won't recommit, its up to you to protect YOURSELF and your children from her waywardness.

If you truly feel like you expressed in the post above ... I would issue an ultimatum to my WW:

"WW, we both know you're having an A with OM ... don't insult my intelligence with more lies. I love you and want to try to recover from this, but for us to have a chance, YOU must have no further contact of any kind with OM FOR LIFE. Basically, its me or him ... I LOVE YOU, BUT I WILL NOT SHARE YOU ... and you need to make up your mind right here and right now. Recommit to our M and agree to NC or pack your bags and leave our home."

From what you describe of yourself, I'd say we view the world fairly similarly, and 18 months ago I issued basically the same "I love you, but will not share you" ultimatum.

My FWW (FogFee) posts here occassionally ... feel free to look up her posts and see her response (in hindsight) about how this ultimatum shook her out of her self-absorbed state long enough to realize what was REALLY important to her. She has also posted about how this was EXACTLY the right action for me to take in our case. Granted, we are older and minor children were not an issue with us, but I can honestly say that I would have acted in the same manner even if there were children to consider.

This is simply a matter of "right and wrong" and it is wrong for a BH to allow his WW to disrespect him further by allowing her to continue in an adulterous relationship after he has knowledge of the A. Keep in mind, I'm speaking of the BH's actions only at this point ... the WW has always been wrong in her adulterous actions and the BH can't change HER ... he can only protect his boundaries by refusing to tolerate the level of disrespect by allowing his WW to remain in the marital home while she continues in her adulterous activities.

ITA with Myrev & Krazy.

I needed her begging and pleading for forgiveness or it was out the ****edit**** door.

Some of us less refined men have a need to maintain some sort of internal pride even though we feel like ****edit**** for taking them back anyway.

Marty, you are right to take a long look at the WHOLE PICTURE. Your children are a huge part of that picture. Does that mean you tolerate her abuse for the children? Hell no. That benefits no one. But does that mean its smart to give a DETACHED spouse an ultimatum and toss her out the door? HELL NO. Doing so only throws her into the arms of the OM and will likely end your marriage.

But divorce destroys the lives of children, and as their father, you have an obligation to take that into consideration. There is much, much at risk here than just your marriage and your PRIDE. Throwing her out might feel good to YOUR bruised pride, but there others who will be effected by such an act: the well being of your children. Your kids will never be the same. Just as it would be a mistake to stay in an abusive marriage "for the children" it would also be a mistake, IMO, to dump a perfectly salvagable marriage without trying OVER PRIDE. Acting on PRIDE is a BOY's game, not a man's game.

You have to understand the state of mind of wayward who is in an affair. The WS has already left the marriage emotionally. She is emotionally detached from you and is in love with the OM. She is on the FENCE so to speak and is afraid to jump. So if you make the mistake of throwing her out, you force her to make a decision when she is still intoxicated on the affair. THAT IS THE WORST TIME TO GIVE A WS AN ULTIMATUM.

That is to throw her into the arms of the OM, when the marriage can probably be saved if you are STRATEGIC and SMART about this.

And how can one be strategic and smart about this? By not lovebusting her [which hands her more ammunition with which to demonize you] and by showing her that you are willing to meet her needs if she will end her affair. When you don't react in anger and fury, you confuse HER and cause her to second guess her plans.

That is the carrot of Plan A. The stick of Plan A is critical. That means exposure, protecting finances, and causing as much conflict in the affair as possible. The more conflict you cause, the more unattractive the affair.

But just understand that we have many fully recovered marriages here where the affair did not end right away. MOST DON'T. But that does not mean you have to throw in the towel when you are under duress. 95% of affairs crumble under 2 years, but only 15% of affairs end in Plan A. More often it takes PLAN B, too.

You have nothing to lose by doing the best Plan A possible, then perhaps Plan B. You can always make a decision to move on at any point.

I am a BW.

I also feel the anger of sharing my H with someone else. The anger of OW thinking she has rights to a married man, rights to touch my man in any way.
I have a great deal of pride and struggled with the decision 'do I try to fix this or kick him the frig out' Need to say that physical contact had stopped after D-Day and I am sure this influenced my thinking.

I made the decision to 'fix' the MB Plan A way.
Plan A was so hard for all the reasons you guys have said.
But it was 'pride vs love for my H'

I'm so glad that 'love for my H' won

So what is the difference in how BH and BW think, b/c I'm not sure it is pride.
If it is pride, is it worth losing a family over?

I'm simply trying to understand since I think it is a really important decision that Marty has to be confident with.

What Melody says is true IF you are the type of man who can do it.

IF you can give your wife a goodbye peck on the cheek as she leaves the house to boink the OM then more power to you.

If you are not and you try to do so the resentment later in the marriage (if you make it) will likely eat you alive.

It all depends on who YOU are as Myrev stated.

OHHH ... I disagree completely (FOR SOMEONE OF MARTY'S PERSONALITY TYPE) ... a MAN's self-respect is a TERRIBLE thing to lose.

True, there are those BH's who claim they are better off for following Plan A & B, but that is not the type of BH that Marty describes himself as ... we need to recognize and understand the difference ... this IS NOT "one size fits all".

right. Is he a boy who would sacrifice the well being of his children for his temporarily bruised pride or he is a MAN who makes tough decisions based on reason and logic for the best interest of all? His pride won't always be bruised. His marriage and his children's family will always be bruised if he hastily kicks them to the curb. His marriage may well be saved like others here.

Some people are simply not cut out for Plan A and Plan B; I am admittedly one of them. But to kick a spouse and your children's family to the curb over PRIDE is the act of a BOY, not a man. It might feel good to do it, but it sure does not feel good to a 4 year old to have your family broken up. It is devastating.

Its real easy to tell people to dump their family when its not your life on the line.

Marty, just know that many people here have saved their marriages when the affair didn't end right away. And there is absolutely no shame is trying to save your marriage before you make any such decision to vacate. Thousands have done it before using plan A and Plan B.

How about we let MARTY decide that and not encourage him to kick his wife to the curb while he is under GREAT EMOTIONAL DURESS?

Making life changing decisions based on PRIDE is a BOY'S GAME. Lets help him be a man.

It will not be Marty who breaks up his family should it come to that. It will be the choice of his wife.

Marty is NOT responsible for HER choices.

Mr Z told me he was going to divorce me after I confessed to the A. His pride was destroyed. I lived at my mom's for a few days after d-day. When he asked me to come home, we had a long talk and he said, "I'll stay with you until you give me a reason not to."

After a few months of very bumpy recovery where I continued to lie to him about the details of the affair, we finally called the Harleys. During those rough months, Mr Z left me several times.

The point is, there is no way on earth Mr Z would have done Plan A. I have to say that his firmness was what I needed to snap me out of my fogged up delusions. He wasn't going to enable me to have an affair right under his nose. I also have to say, I respect him for this. If he enabled me with Plan A, I don't know if I would have respected him.

Marty is responsible for HIS CHOICES. And kicking his wife to the curb over PRIDE would be his choice.

Me 4. But ML is right. Make the decision based on whether or not you have it in you to do the Plan A and not end up hating your WW.

MrsZ, and this is a critical point. The pride of every BS feels greatly damaged. But kicking your spouse out and breaking up your family does not resolve that. Bruised pride goes away over time. And kicking a spouse out and ending a marriage over bruised pride does not go away over time. It is a boys act. Boys make decisions based on pride; men make decisions based on reason and logic.

It is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I assure you that the pride of Mortarman, BigK, MrW, SMB, and many others here is not still bruised today, but they have intact families and happy marriages.

I am not denying that some just are not cut out for Plan A. I am one of them. But to make such a drastic decision over PRIDE is the stuff of boys, not men.

And HIS choice will be to continue his marriage living out their marriage under their VOWS (forsaking all others). That's a vow, not pride.

I think we have to deal with WHAT IS, instead what we would WANT TO BE, don't you?

ML,

Once again, you are spinning the words of others to suit YOUR agenda.

You SPIN "Recommit to our M and agree to NC or pack your bags and leave our home." to "But to kick a spouse and your children's family to the curb over PRIDE is the act of a BOY, not a man."

Inflamatory and Innaccurate!!!

I don't see any reason to proceed straight to Plan D the next morning after WW leaves the marital home. I simply see the BH enforcing a boundary to not allow his WW to disrespect him by carrying on her ongoing A while still living in the marital home.

Let her FEEL some consequences of her actions ... proceed with exposure so everyone will know that WW had to leave the marital home because SHE wouldn't give up her OM ... let the fantasy fog evaporate with the light of truth shining on it ... basically, I'm advocating a BH taking back some measure of control over his own life ... preserving his self-respect rather than acting as his WW's doormat.

In effect, the BH is going straight to Plan B, while still maintaining his self-respect. He is simply cutting himself off from the source of his pain, while protecting any remaining love he may have for his WW. At that point, the ball is squarely in HER court.

As iam put it ... I still feel like a ***edit*** at times for NOT taking MORE ACTION ... however, if I hadn't done anything upon discovery ... I would have been homicidal/suicidal over my own SHAME.

I wish you would at least "attempt" to understand this perspective so we don't have to rehash this for every new BH who desires to ACT.

I am so glad Melody jumped on this thread!

There IS another way to do this Marty. The Marriage Builders way. Have you read the books or articles? They will help you to understand how your marriage got to this place. They will help you understand some of the dynamics involved in affairs.

Melody is right. This is not the time for ultimatums. You have several betrayed husbands posting to you that are advocating that. That is not the MB way. Hopefully some betrayed husbands that followed the Marriage Builders way will post to you too. Following Marriage Builders does not make you a wuss. It takes tremendous strength and character to stand for your family. I have the UTMOST respect for the BH's who have done so.

I have much empathy for your wife. I was also at one time a WW. If I can, I'd like to help you understand what she's thinking.

And I just want to add Marty -- don't make a decision on your strategy until you KNOW what you are up against.

Right now, you don't know how OM feels about your wife. You don't know if he wants her to leave you and plan a future with her -- or if she's just a piece of fun on the side.

Right now, you don't know how your wife feels about OM.

Kicking her to the curb might fit into her plans really well -- because then she point a finger at you for ending it.

You still need to SPY!

However, I respect Melody's views a ton and she has helped me so much.

Melody, your posts about boundaries helped me develop a plan to protect my marriage. Mr Z and I have used those guidelines with Mr Z's teenage daughter as well.

Marty, please know that this is NOT MARRIAGE BUILDERS ADVICE, but the advice of a man who does not know how to save marriages. Dr. Harley has never suggested kicking a spouse out who wouldn't end their affair upon DEMAND. RARELY does the affair end right away and we have many recovered marriages. That is a stupid strategy that often throws the WS right into the arms of the OP.

Stick with Dr. Harleys plans, Marty, he has saved many marriages and knows what he is talking about.

Acting on pride might feel good for about 10 minutes, but worse feelings are to come when those stupid actions result in divorce of a marriage that could be saved. Acting on PRIDE is a BOY'S GAME.

I can tell you ONE marriage that MyRev has saved--OURS.

MyRev, you want to show me where Dr Harley says a WS should kicked out of the marital home if she won't end her affair right away? I would like your reference for this advice.

And I applaud him for that. I think Dr. Harley may have saved one or two more.

Marty,

If you wish to discuss this further, just reply to any of my posts.

***************EDIT****************

Melody,

How is this advice that you gave another poster different than what Myrev suggests?

Marty, I apologize for the dust up on your thread, but I have to warn you that much of the advice you are getting here is coming from hotheads and is not tried and true Marriage Builders advice.

Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist with 35 years experience saving marriages and nowhere does he advise people to kick out their spouse if they don't immediately end their affair. It is a foolish move if you have any intention of saving your marriage. And it is known that the risk of divorce is much greater when separated.

You may very well decide to end your marriage. That is your right and your prerogative. No one could fault you for that. But please understand that your marriage is very salvageable and don't make any hasty decisions. We have many happy, recovered marriage here.

On the other hand, your bruised pride is a temporary state of mind. Divorce is always painful for all involved, with very little payoff, but marital recovery, while painful, has a payoff for your marriage and your children's family.

So, please stick to MARRIAGE BUILDERS principles and don't allow temporary emotions or childish challenges to your manhood direct your actions. There is nothing manly about acting on pride.

There are several other men on MB who know MB principles, who have recovered marriages who can help you with this. Among them are Mortarman, MrW, BigKahuna, Shattereddreams, Mark1952 and others. I will put the word out and see if I can get over here.

Marty, Good luck in whichover path you decide to take.

I'm sorry your thread denegrated such that some felt it necessary to stoop to name calling.

Aloha Marty,

I don't post much here any more, but your tread caught my attention.

I want to let you know that Mel, is watching your back here. The suggestions you're getting from her is exactly what I was told when I first got here. My W didn't come out of the fog immediately and told me they were just friends too. We are happily married now, and celebrated 25 years last year. Thanks to advice like you're getting from Mel.

Some have talked about pride and self-respect. I don't think I would have had any pride or self-respect if I just kicked my W out the door without figuring out how I contributed to the deterioration of my M and didn't do everything I could to fix that and give my W a reason to come back to the M. I would have had no self-respect if I did that and could not have held up my head after a divorce without being able to say I did everything I could to recover my M.

Read a lot, and use the tools wisely (Plan A & B, exposure, ENQ, etc.) Mortarman, Mark and the others are great resources.

Blessings.

S&C

This is such an emotional issue, I can certainly see why people are so passionate about their viewpoints on this matter. One minute my emotions are on one end of the spectrum, then the next minute they are way over somewhere else. I am a total emotional wreck right now. I guess at the end of the day I am a person that does not make rash decisions, and if ever there was a time to stay true to this, now is that time. I am a methodical, analytical type of person. I do realize and am totally accountable for my part in the problems of our marriage, but I am just so deeply hurt right now that my W is leading this secret life of adultery. I am currently reading through as much information as possible on this fabulous website (ie: what Plan A & B are actually about) as to what the best steps to take are in this ordeal. Over the last year I have done so much personally to try and make me a better H (and ultimately a better person), and it just rocks me to my inner core that despite all of this, she is still directing her passion/energy/attention to OM. I do love my wife, and my family means absolutely everything to me. Blessings to all who have offered all their support……

Hey Marty,

You've been here a whole two days. And the posts you've gotten so far haven't quite agreed with each other. Easy to be confused and emotionally all over the place.

You're looking over the info here, that's good. If you haven't yet, get an arsenal of books that can help; a copy of "Surviving an Affair", "Torn Asunder", "His Needs/Her Needs", maybe even "Not Just Friends" are great books to have. Start with Surviving An Affair. When you're able to get a handle on some of the info you'll start to feel a little more in control.

Take care of your health, get the best rest you can.

I know you don't want to share your W with anyone, no-one does, but there are things that work and there are things that work more often to restore marriages and get the spouses re-engaged in the M. Once you get familiar with Dr. Harley's tools, then you'll know what they are.

You might even consider "investing" in a session with one of the Harleys.

Blessings (and praying for you).

S&C

I can't believe the word ar$enal is censored

Hey, Marty. For what it's worth, if my H had given me an on-the-spot ultimatum to "choose H or the OM right now" when I was in the thick of my PA last spring, I would have left my H. Not to run to my OM (OM was married and lives far away), but because it would have been the final straw of H once again controlling me. (I know this sounds ridiculous since I was the one violating our marriage vows, but I was blaming H for everything.) That's where my state of mind was. I had one foot and the other 4 toes out the door and that would have sealed it for me.

I believe there is a difference between an ultimatum and a boundary or boundaries. It's semantics, but it makes a difference to me. According to dictionary.com, ultimatum means: "a final, uncompromising demand or set of terms issued by a party to a dispute, the rejection of which may lead to a severance of relations or to the use of force." Boundary means: "something that indicates bounds or limits; a limiting or bounding line." I see an ultimatum as an absolute that offers no forgiveness -- no flux and no do-overs. Once an ultimatum is issued, it must be stuck to or any authority (for lack of a better word) is forever lost. This applies to ultimatums given at work, in a relationship, in raising kids, anything. Boundaries, however, allow for tolerance -- allowing for different pre-determined responses based on the specific situation. If you issue an ultimatum that if your W doesn't stop contact with OM this moment then you're getting a D, you can't take W back the next day or the next week or a month later after she realizes the mistake she's made. If you do, she'll never believe your "threats" again. If, however, you decide to go Plan A and/or Plan B and you set boundaries or rules during this time in order for you to work within the relationship (like she cannot talk with OM while in your home, can't talk about him) that's giving her choices with consequences that she can learn from, hopefully change her behavior, and still have a chance at being with you. Ultimatums give no hope. Boundaries do.

I so admire what MrsZ and MrZ have gone through and what they're doing. I've taken strength especially from her story. MrsZ wrote a few posts back that, "After a few months of very bumpy recovery where I continued to lie to him about the details of the affair, we finally called the Harleys. During those rough months, Mr Z left me several times." I see this more of a boundary than ultimatum -- that MrZ can't live with a liar so as long as she's lying, MrZ won't live with her. However, if she changes and later decides to live by this, he will come back. So something she/he did allowed him to keep coming back and trying again. If he had said, "lie just once and I'm gone for good" (and maybe he did say this), and if he had stuck to it, perhaps they wouldn't be together now. (This is all presumptuous of me, I realize, and I apologize if I've misinterpretted what happen in order to illustrate my point here, MrsZ and MrZ.)

You know you and your wife best so it's up to YOU to decide what YOU can and should do. I'm just a rookie here and by no means an expert at MB. All I can offer is if you truly want to try to save the marriage, listen to the vets here, understand what you can and want to live with, implement your plan (A, B, or D), and follow through.

Take care.

***EDIT*** someone other than your spouse is a boundry.

Telling your spouse if they ***EDIT*** someone else the marriage is over is stating your boundry with words.

iam -- that makes absolutely no sense.

Mrs. Z, you dont know if your husband would have never done Plan A. You see, until we are put in the situation, we can talk all we want to. I was the type of guy, before my wife's A, that would talk like MyRev and company. No way I would ever let someone do that to me...I have too much pride to allow that.

But then D-Day hit, and after the dust settled, I was confronted with the choice of bouncing my WW out on her butt or doing the hard thing in life, and loving someone that was unlovable at the time. I chose the second.

I didnt chose the second necessarily because I wanted my WW back. I chose the hard road because:

1. I knew I was responsible (at least half responsible) for the conditions of the marriage that led to the environment where my wife made the decision to get into an affair.

2. Because I had three kids at the time, and it is a well known FACT that children in broken homes ALWAYS lose somethings that an intact home would have given them. Children ALWAYS suffer in divorce, although some more than others!

3. Afer reading Dr. Harley's books, and talking with Steve Harley a few times, I realized there was much work that I had to do to be a better husband, even if it wasnt going to be with the current Mrs. Mortarman. Plan A allowed me to do that...and under some very extreme conditions.

4. There is a huge difference between PRIDE and HONOR. I chose the honorable route, which is usually the most painful. I wanted at the end of the day, that my wife, my kids and my God to be able to look at me and know that I had done it right. That I had been the man I was supposed to be. That I had EARNED my way out of the marriage.

5. My vows did not have an "adultery clause." My vows, which were said to my wife and my God, were for me to love, honor and cherish, in sickness and in health, in good times and BAD TIMES, for as long as we both shall live. Well, it doesnt get any "BADDER" than an affair!

6. Since I was a Christian, I was forced to look at myself, at what my role is as a husband (see my link below for more information). I was forced to realize the truth...which was I was to love my wife as Jesus Himself loves me. A love that means I love the other person, no matter if they deserve my love...and even if they are actively running from my love. So, if I was called to do this...then I couldnt throw her to the curb...as Jesus never did that to me!

You see...if it were just one or two of the things I had listed, then I would have just left her and walked on. But, I believe as the Bible states...that my wife and I are one flesh. One person. So, when a marriage ends, it means one flesh is torn into two flesh. Well what happens when you tear one flesh into two flesh. Both die!

I understand, as do all BSs, that it is HARD to do this. But I also understand that it is very simple! BSs on here begin to find out what the difference is between simple and easy!

But nothing easy is ever worth much! As I have said before, I had to confront the question: how much is the wife of Mortarman worth? Not WW of Mortarman...the WIFE of Mortarman. Who decides her worth?

Well, I decide her worth. How? By how much I am willing to pay. That is the worth of Mrs. Mortarman, no matter who she is. It is easy to "pay" when things are "health, good times and rich." The mark of a true man and a man of honor is what he does in the "sickness, bad times, poor" times.

If I had thrown away my wife, I would have shown to everyone, including her and our children, that their mother...and my wife...was worth very little. She was just trash to be thrown away!

I have gone on here and didnt mean to! But, I will say that Mrs. Z...you have no idea what your husband would have done. I spent 21 years in the Army. We all talked about what we would do if we went to war. But, what is said before...and what happens once you are there, are often two different things!

It makes perfect sense. Maybe you just don't understand it.

Oh and Mrs. Z...it is evidence of how much you are worth because your husband was willing to forgive and recover. So, dont apologize because you WERE a WW!! You are not that person...you are Mrs. Z and worth a whole lot as is evidenced by what Mr. Z was willing to pay!!

You really need to realize that much of this thread illustrates the vast differences in personality types, and as such, much that has been written on this thread is not understood by many that are reading it.

I posted my thoughts for those who understand and can relate to my personaltiy. I won't waste my time trying to convince anyone who doesn't understand my personality of the value of my perspective. Those who understand ... GET IT ... and those who don't, likely never will and vice versa.

well help me then....


How is "***edit***" someone else a "boundry" (boundary)??

Marty,

Let me help you a little with the intel gathering. My wife was also the SAHM. By the time I was done with intel gathering, there was almost nothing I didnt know!

So, first of all, let's map out when your wife has the possiblity of being with the OM (like the recent time when she was home alone). When does she have the opportunity to see him?

MM has a way with words, I could have said the same thing.

I was out socially with my WW last night, and....I'm just proud she is my wife. She looks beautiful and young and people gravitate toward her. We laughed and had a lot of fun with each other.

Plus, logistically, it usually isn't the man who gets "bounced on his butt' at least in this state. You are throwing yourself out of your home and family, most likely, once WW lawyers up...

Thanks Mortarman, as of right now she is at home everyday by herself while I am out at work. Both kids are in school. I feel I may have confronted too soon, as I believe it is definitely heading underground. I checked her cell last night, and she has figured out how to delete her recent record of who she is texting. Does this not mean she is totally trying to cover her tracks, something I can approach her on? Do I wait to try and get more intel, or do I just go back at her with the evidence I have to this point?

Get more intel! It has the ability to help you understand what is TRULY going on and will keep her from wriggling out when you confront.

So, what you need to do is to get more intel. If yo ucant afford a PI, then here's what I would do (and have done):

1. Get voice activated digital recorders...ones that record all day or for a long time. Place them in strategic points in the house, where you know she will talk. My choice was near our bed, in the kitchen and next to where she always sat while watching TV in the family room. I also had one hidden in her car.

2. If you can do it, skip out of work during the times where she is truly alone. When the kids are at school. Let her know the day before that you have a meeting for an hour or so during that time. That way, she wont try to call work to check to see if yo uare there, before she does whatever she is doing. Once yo uare out of work, get to a position in the neighborhood where yo ucan see your house and can monitor who comes and goes. I borrowed a friend's car from work on the occasions where I did this, so she wouldnt see our car.

If you cant do it yourself, see if a brother or friend of yours (good close friend) would try to get the intel for you by watching the house.

WSs are notoriously sloppy, even when they try to go underground. But, your job will be easier if you can get the intel now!

You need to spy -- otherwise she will just get more clever about hiding.

Can you put a GPS on her car?

And DVR's in your house?

Keyloggers on her computer?

Quit confronting her.
You know she's in an A, and confronting her again will not change that.
She knows you're suspicious, so she's covering her tracks (going further underground). Confronting her will only exacerbate this problem.

Plan A for now, and gather intel.

When you have proof:
1. Confront her. Tell her "I know you're having an A with OM and I find that unacceptable."
2. Expose to your WW's parents, to OM's circle of influence - do NOT let your WW or OM know you're going to do this. Just have a list and phone numbers or email addresses and go down the list. Tell them "WW and OM are having an A. I'm determined to doing whatever it takes to save my marriage and become a better husband." If it's someone you know (WW's parents) ask if they have any advice.

I agree that Plan A is the way to go. Right now every time you love bust (LB) your WW says to herself "He's impossible to live with, I can't put up with that kind of treatment for the rest of my life. I'm lucky to have found OM!" She justifies her behavior when you LB.

When you meet her ENs you prove to her that you can be the H she wants. When she mentally compares you to OM it's harder for her to find fault with you.

I was both BW and WW. When I was a WW if my H had not tried to curtail his LBs and meet my ENs, I'd have been out the door. His lack of a Plan A would have proved to me that I was making the right choice in having an A and leaving. Instead of making demands and issuing ultimatums, he showed me he could be the husband I fell in love with. It worked.

Does she text on a PC as well?

Keyboard loggers are a cheap an easy bust, in fact i paid nothing, a free trial download.

DVRs are about $30-40.

A GPS costs significant $$, over $700 from what I could see.

The downside for me was that if you do surveillance or put a DVR around, she might bust you.

I suspected, put a keyboard logger in, and had damning evidence in 12 hours with emails and chats with OM.

I found a really good and cheap way to put a GPS in a car. It provides live updates over the web at up to 1 minute intervals. Go to accutracking.com for the details. But basically, the service uses a GPS enabled motorola iDen phone from Boost Mobile (about $35) and some provided software. Then, all you need is to pay $0.35 a day for the internet service on the phone, and $6-7 for the accutracking service per month. The whole thing cost me less than $75. It is now installed under the hood of WW's car, and I always know where she is.

I am going to pick up a few activated digital recorders, and see what happens.

I guess as far as evidence goes to confront my WW, I'm still struggling with the fact I saw, with my own eyes, a text that said "Sweet dreams to you too....Have a good day tomorrow...". In my heart this is incriminating enough, along with the other documented incidents with the OM that are already out in the open and irrefutable.....am I out of line with this? Also, is it best to let her know I need to expose, or at what point in a Plan A situation do you actually expose to others? Thanks....

The problem is, 90 percent of the time, the WS and the OP will say to whomever you expose "BS is crazy and paranoid, we are just friends."

After accusing, you may not need to show the WS the actual evidence, necessarily, I just stated I had "months of nauseating emails" and was filing an adultery complaint in the AM. She didn't want that, and confessed and didn't claim any different to the family I exposed to....

ACK NO Marty! Forewarned is forearmed. You do NOT tell her that you are going to expose, you simply do it...Exposure works best when it is done in one fell swoop to all...More bang for your buck that way, if you will...It also doesn't give the infidels time to spin the story and head you off at the pass...

Mrs. W

Marty,

It's not a good idea to let her know you will be exposing. Many WS' will just paint the BS as a lunatic or someone that is very controlling.

You are not out of line with wanting your W to be faithful.

Do you understand what Plan A is and it's purpose? If not, make sure you do. Many people try to explain what Plan A is "in a nutshell" and don't always give all that people need to know. It is used to help end the A, but doesn't always. When you do a good Plan A, your W will begin to see you as a person she desires to be with. But that isn't all there is. That's why you need to read and really understand Plan A & B. Exposure takes away the fantasy and deception of the A. It also puts external pressure on her from the people she respects (assuming the won't support her and the A).

You've got some good support on this thread. Keep your head up and Blessings.

S&C

Exactly. She will either call everyone and say 'H has gone nuts"...OR...call everyone, confess, and say "I've been miserable for years, he is abusive, I needed to find happiness, blah, blah."

Marty,

I'm just catching up on your thread. You need more definitive proof. You may get it from voice recorders placed in her car and in the house. Be prepared.

The pain of confirmation is pretty strong. There's that little part of you that hopes she is telling the truth and you are just crazy for thinking otherwise, but that's hope. Your heart already knows the truth and you simply need that damning evidence.

Does your W use a computer? You can install a keylogger to catch her passwords and emails to whomever. That will likely give you the confirmation you need.

Don't reveal that you are tracking her cell phone use online. That is easy to see and nearly real time.

How is she treating you? I have a feeling she may not be as venemous a WW as others since you haven't really described some of the demonic behavior many of us had to deal with.

The voice recorders set to record upon sound activating them is what you want.

Put one in your bedroom. Another one in your living room.

Or skip work one day and simply wait outside your home. Watch where she goes. Or watch who comes to see her.

I really, really, really hope she's not brining this man to your house. That's a violation which would be in the almost unforgivable category. At least to me.

I was a BH who wanted to save things for the kids. I wonder, in hindsight, if I would try to save things now. Divorce and time has given me perspective on my marriage and made me see that I was married to someone who was very manipulative, constantly sick and in need of care, and who was a taker and rarely a giver regarding everything. Most of the childcare was left to nannies or to me when I came home while she was out "running errands". The best times in our marriage were when she was sick and I was taking care of her.

I hardly know of any other times.

So there is no right answer on which path you choose. But whatever you do, don't be a BH without balls. I was one and it got me nowhere.

TJ/

Mrs. Z, I'm a vet as well. Glad to see you stayed with your H and were remorseful. Didn't turn out that way on my end. Took a 3 year battle to get my rights as a father secured.

/TJ

OK, so went out and picked up a couple of the recording devices, pretty sweet things, wish I had them in university. Anyways, got home today from work and the WW asked me to go upstairs and talk. Her parents are gone for a while, and she just wants to spend the night at her parent's place alone to regroup herself, and make the world we are living in (our stressed marriage) stop for just a bit to catch her breath. In our talk, she seemed to be totally baring her soul and her desire to fix our relationship. This is a side of her I haven't seen in years, truly wanting to get us moving together and repairing the relationship.

I'm looking at this from two ends, one good and one very bad:
1) She has reached the point where she knows I am suspecting some monkey business with OM, and the guilt has cleared the fog, and she truly wants to point things in a different direction. Naive I suppose, but this move in the right direction is truly what I want.

2) She now has the time and place to be alone for a night with OM. I am going to try and put one of my recorders in the vehicle before she goes.

I know the posts have said that WS lie through their teeth, but my gut in this case is saying she is genuine in just needing some time tonight to take a quick breath from the craziness.

Any tips on what to look for "the day after" as far as anything that would suggest she was not alone tonight?

Thanks all.....

Follow her to her parent's house, camp out and see who else shows up. My bet is OM.

Sorry you are here.

Too bad you can't listen in on THAT night...

tl

cool, she and the OM have a place to meet up! With your blessing!

For the day after, I would have the semen detection test ready to test on her panties. Of course you dont really even need that to know the truth. http://www.getcheckmate.com/

p.s. if you don't have your wife followed that night, you need to have your head examined.

You should not believe anything a person in an affair says. An affairee is just like an alcoholic and will say whatever she has to say to get her next drink. And be very sincere and believable!

If you say "no" to her spending the night out at her parents...I'm betting her kindness and openness ends. She'll say and do anything for a night out with her crackpipe.

She's manipulating you for a night out with OM.

If she really wanted to work on the relationship...stay home and work on it.

I know first hand how hard it is to look a WW in the eye and want to trust this person you've known and loved for years...but if she's wayward, she's manipulating you.

I doubt you'll be able to stop her going no matter what you do. At least you have an opportunity to get your confirmation.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Don't get caught snooping.

If you can camp out and bust OM showing up at her parents house then you MAY (I say "may" because this is your call) decide to call her parents from your car, expose to them and then ask them if they'd like to talk to your wife on the cell phone. Go and knock on the door and tell your wife that her dad/mom wishes to speak to her.

I'm banking on the notion that her parents wouldn't be to keen on her carrying on an adulterous affair in their home.

It's just an idea.

(If OM is married...you could call his wife and do the same thing)

Mr. Wondering

This is her night alone with OM, where you leave her alone to be with OM.

OMG Marty, this is so classic WW behavior. She has a night with OM all figured out without your interference, because she knows you still trust and believe in her. She is now using that to her advantage.

Stake out at parent's house, and you will finally see the extent of betrayal.

Good Luck,

All Blessings,
Jerry

Exactly correct.

If you want to be optimistic, you could look on this as an opportunity to confirm or deny.

Look at it this way. Wouldn't wondering drive you nuts if you didn't do something to find out?

It could be they are going to a hotel.

When is she talking about going?

I think I would get a quick PI to stake it out. It is what they do all the time and they are surprisingly inexpensive.

Hi Marty,

want some more advice??? In one way you do, and in another way, you don't right?

There is a football announcer here in the states who is very famous for his announcing and as a pro coach, his name is John Madden.

He has a saying that I think really applies to your situation.
In your situation, you KNOW she is cheating at least emotionally and the odds favor physically as well.

The advice to collect intel is excellent. The suggestions of keystroke loggers, voice activated recorders, and such are good.

However, you need a bit more don't you. A PI can probably find a way to obtain those text messages. See if they can do that for you.

But, here is something you really need to do and you have started it. In the time your W has been in contact with OM has your marriage changed and if so how?

If your W continued to treat you as she does would that be satisfactory to you, if so, how, if not why?

There is no way you can decide whether or not you want to save this marriage right now, so stop trying. You cannot save it if the A continues, you might not want to when the A ends, she just may decide to leave taking that decision out of your hands.

My recommendation is in fact plan A. Most posting to you today see it as "kiss A$$". I think they are missing the whole point.

Plan A is about removing love busters from your interaction. That does not mean you cannot be honest with her, in fact you should be honest with her, but in a fashion that conveys your message NOT your anger.

You should set boundaries:

1. One boundary could be as MyRev stated: if the A doesn't stop now, and you have to prove that you have stopped, I am gone.

2. Another boundary could be stated "I will not share you emotionally or physically with another man."

3. I won't tolerate how children being hurt by your decisions.

These are not threats, they are not ultimatums, they are boundaries.

While in plan A you should set and discuss boundaries. And then there is exposure. I like exposure, but you need to have the goods not a "he said, she said" sort of thing. If you need support from her family, your family, clergy, you need to have the goods and then seek support for the marriage.

Finally, realize that the process of ending an A and having the WS go through withdrawal, and then rebuilding is a: PROCESS and takes time.

I would certainly seek the advice and help of a PI. I would obtain as much intel as you can, even secondary because it adds to the picture. I would seek the counsel of a good lawyer and find out your rights.

In summary, I would plan for success, prepare for failure and let the data tell when and what to decide.

There is no doubt you must and will take action. The only real discussion on this thread is about timing of the actions. Personally, I like data. Then I really like a good plan with lots of details and goals, once I have that I am a tough man to beat.

I sense you may be like me.

Just some thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

Tonight? She's doing it tonight? Doesn't leave you much time does it?

No time to find a sitter and follow her.

How about calling a buddy of yours to follow her?

Man oh man, she is going to meet him tonight.

WS's don't believe in "time to think". They only believe in "time to rut".

Sorry.

Find out all you can tonight.

I hope you realize you've spoiled that song for me forever! And it was a favorite, too...

tl

Marty --
As a FWW, I can tell you that there is ZERO chance that her request to "get away from the crazy world" was genuine.

ZERO.

WW's can lie beyond belief. They will swear on their childrens lives/their dead grandmothers/on anything they hold precious...
and lie right to your face.

Is there anyway for you to gain access to your in-laws home before she gets there?

Plant the recorders there.

Agree with everyone else. She wants time to focus on OM. If she wanted to clear her head and work on the M she'd be at home, working on the M.

If you get a keylogger (excellent advice, IMO) then be sure to reboot the PC and play with the PC a bit and run any virus scanners to make sure they don't think the keylogger is a virus. You may have to tell your virus scanner to ignore that particular application.

Marty, do you have an update?

Not sure if this night already happened. If not, hire a PI. You will want to not only stake out the parents' home, but also have her followed. She may be getting a motel room, and the whole parents' thing was just a deflection. Either way, she is planning a fling with OM, no doubt about it.

Cover both angles and get your answer!

The reasoning behind this is as follows. If you tell your WW that you're going to expose, then she will immediately talk to OM. She'll start telling her parents and friends "I'm so worried about Marty99. We've been having problems and I've tried talking to him until I'm blue in the face but he's totally unreasonable. He's controlling and angry all the time. He's paranoid for no reason. He accuses me of insane things and stalks me. I don't know how much more of this I can take. Thank heavens I have my two good girlfriends Thelma and Louise to talk to, and one male friend who understands too. It's nice being able to talk to OM, he's the one voice of sanity in all this and he offers insights from a male perspective. If it weren't for him I think Marty99 and I would be divorced already."

So NO.
Don't tell your WW you're going to expose. Just do it.

Okay, it is unanimous! As you can see, what she is doing is all straight from the Wayward Wife Handbook, under the chapter entitled "I need Some Space to Think."

JL had a great post about data and getting your plans together. Remember, she has NO plans...she is flying by the seat of her pants. Having a plan is better than having no plan!!

And MelodyLane is correct...if you dont take this opportunity to follow her and see what is up, you will miss your single best opportunity to catch them in the act.

Now, find a babysitter and go...or hire a PI if you can. Or get a brother or friend to do it for you. But get the goods!

Now, if you go, and the OM shows up there...dont run in and bang on the door and demand an explanation. The hardest thing you will do is to restrain from stopping them. But you must! Why? Because if you do, it will be spun as they are just friends and he came over to have cake and watch a movie...and you are crazy!

The best thing is for you, or a friend or the PI to catch him going in and then note when he leaves. I hired a PI only on the nights I KNEW they would try to be together. So, the PI got there before my wife showed up at the Troll's house, and then snapped photos of her going in. And then in the morning, he snapped photos of the two of them leaving togther. Must have been a long movie, huh??? :RollieEyes:

Get your recorders in place now. Then make sure you do not miss out on this opportunity. Again, as was said above...DO NOT GET CAUGHT!! The idea is to get facts, and in a way that she nor anyone else can refute.

Once you have the facts, do not expose until you come back here and talk with us. Your emotions will be running wild and yo uwill want to go off on her. But, exposure is a planned event too.

This is war, and yo uare the commander on the ground. Treat it as such. Get your intel, and then we will plan for your counterattack!

Do this at your own peril.

I don't believe letting your wife **edit** another man is a good plan.

What sensible other person in your circle of friends or family would believe that lame cake and movie story?

**edit**

iam,

Unfortunately, he cant stop her (unless he does something illegal!). Until he actually catches them doing it, they can spin it that they arent doing it! Now, IF they actually go to the parents house, I like the idea of having the recorders inside (or some walkie-talkie that he can listen in and catch them when they most likely will be caught).

Unless he does something illegal, he CANNOT stop his wife from doing what she probably has already done. For the future of his marriage and family, he must remain calm and collected...and pursue a plan that works.

Showing up at his in-laws 5 minutes after OM gets there is not illegal.

Maybe the OM might get a little frightened.

Marty, do NOT knowingly let OM have sex with your wife. If you recover and your wife finds out what will she think of you?

**edit**

Marty,

As you can see, there are some on here that do not believe in MB principles nor following what Dr. Harley has researched for over 30 years. They want you to pursue the easy way, the weak way, which usually leads to destruction.

I think you are smart enough to know to follow the advice of the professional!

Can you point out where the good doctor tells us to let OM ***edit*** your wife while you sit home eating ice cream?

**edit**

Don't interrupt the [censored] fest? WTH??

I hope OM didn't show up last night. Marty should have been camped out in front of the house. If OM showed up and he needed "evidence" he could have looked through a windows to see if clothes were coming off, snap a few pics and the pound the fricking door down before it went any further. I can't believe he was adviced to just stand back and let it happen.

iam,

I can tell you in countless sessions with Steve Harley, as I gathered my intel and exposed...his advice was constantly...do not expose until you have enough evidence to lock her down. Enough evidence where there is no logical response to it.

If Marty shows up at the house 5 minutes after the OM, and knocks on the door...nothing good will happen there! And guess what? The OM will still end up having sex with her! That is unless he does something illegal (like bashing the OM's head in...which is always a possiblity when these things happen!).

Believe me, in my intel days, I caught them together one night (her at the Troll's house). Being an Army veteran, I was all about kicking the door in, and beating this guy down. It stil lis my favorite dream!

But, there is a higher mission here. And Marty does NOT need to blow it, especially for the sake of his kids. There are things worse than the guy having sex with his wife (which has probably already happened!).

No, the advice is not to let it happen. It is not to fire a shot (to go in there) unless he can prove that they are up to something. Showing up 5 minutes after the OM gets there will prove nothing!

Now, if he got some photos, as you said, of them i nthe living room going at it...then hey, I'm all for coitus interruptus!

**edit**



Stop this from happening Marty. This is for your benefit in the future.

STOP!


Please keep posts productive and respectful! It is ok to disagree just do it respectfully and without profanity. We don't want to have to lock this thread but will if this doesn't stop.

I usually agree with a lot of your views but letting OM bang his wife is destructive to this man's mind and to WW's soul. It's one thing if Marty had no clue of this possible meeting but it's another when he does (or strongly suspects)and does nothing. Isn't Marty's role as her H to protect his wife when danger is known?

As I said Marty, you can believe these folks...or Dr. Harley. I had the same type of folks posting to me many times in the middle of my mess. Of course, if I had followed their advice, I would be divorced and would not have our fourth child...my one year old son.

I am glad I did it the right way!!

Oh for gods sake IAM -- you act like Marty has some opportunity to stop this before it becomes a physical affair.

This has been going on for MONTHS. I guarantee the act has already happened.

He needs evidence that is unrefutable. If he barges in and stops everything before he gets that proof, then he RUINS his chances of EVER getting it.

Plus his wife and OM will pre-empt all of his plans.

He needs to be STRATEGIC, not EMOTIONAL.

Thanks Revera!

Yes, it's called his marriage vows.

When he knowingly let's his wife sleep with OM he is just as guilty for breaking the vows as she is.

His role is her protector. The problem is EXACTLY what LEXXXY just said! He cant stop it! It already probably has happened. Any attempt to stop it will either be unsuccessful or illegal.

Guess what, I KNOW what it feels like to have seen this. I know the feelings and the hit to me. I also know, as Lexxxy said, if I had followed and tried to protect my emotions, I would have lost the war! And I would be divorced.

So, it is why I have advised that if he cant handle discovering this, then have a brother, friend or PI do it.

Why exactly does he need pictures of OM entering in the PM and leaving in the AM.

Really, why this 'unrefutable' evidence?!

**edit**

moderator's note: if you have an issue about moderator actions, email the mod. But STOP disrupting this thread!

Whether the A has turned in a PA already is irrelevant. Marty could still be stratigic. No one said break the door down and punching OM's face in. He could have done a lot to gather intel and disrupt OM and WW in the act before it went to the point of no return. There were other alternatives. Thank God no one gave this advice to mgolfer.

**EDIT**

STOP!

We don't know that any attempt would have been unsuccessful because all Marty was shown was two choices:

Let it happen and get proof or Don't let it happen and get nada.
Saying "what's one more time in the scheme of things" isn't being honorable. I understand the battle vs the war, I do. But these were HORRIBLE battle plans.

This is a war, not just a single battle.

Marty needs to be thinking longer range/longer term.

Sure he could barge in and stop it from happening THIS TIME. However, WW is going to deny anything but friendship. OM came over to TALK. She's already laying the groundwork for relationship problems with Marty and got him agreeing that things are bad. If he barges in and catches *nothing* then she might take the next steps of telling everyone that Marty is becoming unstable. She's already making long range plans.

What she wants to do is ease her way out of the marriage, and bring OM into the picture innocently.

He needs this evidence/proof for exposure to family, friends and his children. He needs to be able to prove otherwise when WW claims "he's just a friend".

No he doesn't. His marriage is him and his wife, not the friends and family.

Exposure's a great tool. Exposure with evidence is a little better. It is not the only weapon though.

Knowingly letting your spouse have sex with OP is sick and against your vows.

Ends DO NOT justify means, even in marriage.

Folks,

I think you know who you are. I strongly disagree with the advice given to Marty to STOP his W from being with OM. Here is why.

1. He has no evidence.

2. He does NOT CONTROL HIS WIFE. NEVER DID NEVER WILL.

3. IF SHE WANTS TO BE WITH OM SHE IS GOING TO DO IT, if not now, then later.

Men don't stop their W's from having affairs. Women don't stop men from having affairs. It is a personal decision to violate the marriage, their vows, and their honor.

The betrayed, ONCE THEY KNOW FOR SURE, have several options;

1. Kick them to the curb.

2. try reconcilliation and then divorce

3. Try rconcilliation and have the marriage survive.

None of these choices can be made until it is KNOWN with evidence that the affair is on.

All of us agree that the circumstances strongly suggest that Marty's W is having an affair. NONE OF US KNOW SHE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR.

So it seems to me the advice you have to STOP this tonight, is premature. Further, he cannot stop this.

Even MyRev didn't stop FogFree's affair, he just threatened her. She had to decide to stop it or leave, but make no mistake it was HER CHOICE. Not his.

The purpose of this site is to afford troubled marriages the best chance to survive in a "win-win" situation. It is not to say, "she looks guilty kick her out". Ultimately many marriages cannot/should not be saved, but that should be determined with a full set of data before all parties concerned.

As for the "hit" Marty "might"take by her actions, let's not forget the "hits" he has already taken and those that will come. If his W were attacked he should fight for her. She is not being attacked, she is voluntarily damaging her marriage, KNOWING the consequence even if in the end she does not want to accept what the consequences might be.

Folks, support the man, don't herd him into premature actions that could harm HIM.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Marty,

What I'm taking from this debate is that following Mortarman's advice... which is MarriageBuilders advice... is not for the faint of heart, I guess.

Winning your wife back will be hard. It will require you to think strategically. It will require a degree of self-control and coolness under pressure that you may not know you possess. But there are countless men here who found that strength when they needed it, and who executed a MarriageBuilders plan, piece by piece, and successfully won back their wives and rebuilt a shattered marriage into something stronger than it was.

This may all be moot, because if I read this correctly, this happened last night. Right?

Regardless... MM is right. If you bust down the door, and they deny it... what then? How can you prevent her from doing what she may be hell-bent on doing? Given that you are not around her 24 hours a day.

You need to know what she is doing, because armed with that information, you can develop a plan of action to win her back.

Ultimatums are fine if you intend to force her to stay, and if you want a marriage where your wife is seething with resentment. Or if you're prepared to kick her to the curb if she doesn't immediately comply. But if you want to build a marriage, a real marriage, out of the rubble that your marriage has become... you will need to win back her heart.

The MarriageBuilders plans are designed to bust up the affair and then to win back her heart. Ultimatums and smashing down the door and all that are great for busting up the affair... maybe... although I think it's much more likely to drive her into OM's arms and away from you. But I don't see how you build something worth having when the only reason she stays is because of threats and ultimatums.


Winning back your wife is the mission, Marty. Winning back her love and her allegience. You have to think strategically here. There is more involved than simply busting up the affair. But even the goal of busting up the affair will be better achieved by following the Marriage Builders plans - which work - rather than winging it.

Hold on here...

There is no way one person can MAKE another person do anything, unless there are guns or violence involved, and even then, a person chooses the alternative to death.

It is solely up to a WS to cheat. If the BS tries to stop them...physically, emotionally, monetarily...it is still a choice the WS chooses to continue.

The A will end sometime. Like an addiction, the A will run it's course, and although happy now, will seem more and more the worse option for their life. We can make those consequences come about sooner for a WS, but we cannot MAKE another person choose to end an A.

Eventually the BS will give the WS the choice of...either the A or the M.

To assume the BS has some control over this A, or can make the WS stop their activity is a bit childish, like throwing a tantrum to get their way, and shows a disrespect for other people.

Respectful disagreement is ok, personal attacks and profanity is not! Be respectful and productive if you disagree.

I am watching!

Thanks,
Revera

JL,

I agree with almost everything you said. No one is attacking WW wife and if she wants to be with OM she will find a way. But I do not agree that this was well thought out nor the ONLY alternative. Again, no opposing poster said act prematurely and bust down the door 5 mins after OM shows up. I'll just leave it at that until Marty shows up and gives an update.

As someone who crossed the line, a bit, I would not advise anyone to do anything confrontational or violent. Kicking a door in might result in a lot of bad things, including a bullet to the chest from the OM.

Even if his car is there, she'll just make up some BS about him dropping off a work file. WS can lie in the face of amazing evidence.

I assume this already went down last night, and we haven't heard from Marty.

I think if it were me, with no time to set anything up like DVRs or a PI, I would cruise by the house a few times and see if her car is there or any others are. Call the house from your cell and say you are thinking about her.

Yes, this should be an interesting reply. He said he had a DVR that he hoped to get into her car last night. I hope he did.

My guess is she never went to her parents home. They went to a hotel.

JL hits exactly on the problem here. And the possible solutions.

The issue on gaining intel and what to do if the OM shows up at the parents house with his wife, is that of...how do I know? Sure, the gut feeling is there. Previous affairs have shown the same pattern. But there is no proof.

Now, why does he need proof? Afterall, his wife KNOWS she is in an affair, right? The issue here is the ability to use ALL of his weapons against the affair. What weapons are there?

Well, the first is exposure. When I had the photos, the PI reports, etc...there was no way my wife could even try to squirm out from under what she had done. No way anyone that I exposed to could draw any other conclusion than what the facts were.

Now, let's say for argument's sake, that they havent "consummated" the affair yet. And the plan is to do so over at her parents' house. Okay...if Marty goes over, and waits for awhile and then knocks on the door...what are the possibilities there?

1. They answer and he and she are caught red handed doing the deed.

2. They answer the door, and have done nothing but watch TV and share some queso dip.

It is doubtful that he would catch them in the act, unless again he had a key or busted down the door. So, #1 probably wouldnt happen. What is likely is #2. So, he shows up and does that? What then?

Well, a huge argument ensues, his wife tells him that she just wanted time to think and this guy was helping her get a man's perspective on how to get things better with Marty...that Marty has gone too far and this is scaring her.

Okay, so everyone in that room knows the truth (and it isnt what his wife just said). But, Marty cant prove it. So what happens is he walks out of that place, everyone is angry, the love birds take their affair deep underground and make it very hard for Marty to get the proof he needs for exposure to others...and his wife begins to tell everyone that Marty is crazy and is stalking her. Thus, she will have people that will help her because she really should leave because Marty is a mental patient!

Added to this the possibility of violence. Never underestimate this, even with someone that is normally non-violent. Put in that situation, nto a one of us could say for sure that we wouldnt hold back from giving the OM a wood shampoo with a baseball bat! And that in no way will help Marty!!

So, what is the alternative?

I have said the BEST alternative is to get a PI or someone he trusts to get the intel. Barring that, if he has to go, then he needs to just get all of the intel he can...and then proceed forward with exposure. He will have remained calm. He will have the goods on them. And all of the folks he exposes to cannot refute what he has or what she has done. Neither can she!

The idea is to have light thrust upon the affair, not to push it deeper into darkness!

Another quick weapon I had was by not confronting at the moment, and by getting intel fro ma myriad of sources, I penned the OM and my wife in. They began to thank that they could go anywhere and say anything...and I would know and hear it. Even when I wasnt getting intel, they still thought I was. It put a lot of pressure on what they were doing.

I hope that explains this.

JL,

I have to tell you ... I've lost a lot of respect for MB.

I TRULY feel that MB has done Marty a great disservice.

Given the recent "pendulum swing" of the "tone" of this board, I suppose its time to take a step backwards and reevaluate whether I am getting or giving anything of value by continuing to post/read here.

and


?

TA

And when I said pound the door down, the photos of whatever compromising position they were in would have been evidence at that point. Once the evidence was secured why wouldn't he bang on the door? Again I didn't say bash OM's face in. I didn't even mean kick the down literally, but yes I'd be pounding on it with my fists to interupt them and let them know I was there AFTER I had the pictures.

Marty- any update?

T/J

Hi, MyRev. I agree with you pretty much, well... Close to never. But I appreciate what you have to say. I'm here because I have faith in doing things the MB way, but there are those who don't. And in the real world, those of us trying to stay M and in good relationships via utilizing MB are sometimes up against those who don't do it MB style. So having other opinions and perspectives I think is helpful. Educating folks with facts, opinions, and true-life experiences is helpful. Ultimately, it's up to the individual to think on their own and act for themself. If they're here on MB, it's assumed that's where their desires lie and I'm for supporting that. But in the end, as we all know, we can't control others.

End T/J

This is A) RATIONAL and LONG-TERM thinking. Banging on the door or busting down the door is B) IRRATIONAL and SHORT-TERM thinking.

"A" is working a plan which WILL have greater odds of killing the (on-going) affair. "B" is reacting in the heat/passion of the moment which may stop things momentarily, but will certainly backfire in the long-run.

ITA with MM.

MyRev, why have you lost respect for MB? Is it because you feel the BS are not being proactive enough? Just curious..

I think people understand it. Its just some people (myself included) think the costs don't justify the benefits.

I just don't think I would place that high (i.e. higher than the value of disrupting things getting physical) a value on the "intel". I just say that because I don't think "intel" is really all that scarce a commodity when dealing with WS's.

RIGHT PM!!! I also agree w/ MM...

It is the difference between ACTING and REACTING...

REACTING to FEELINGS or ACTING on LOGIC & REASON...

Reacting to FEELINGS is the WAYWARD GAME...Not a good plan...

Mrs. W

rprynne,

I agree that IF a BS could stop a WS from doing the deed, then by all means...please do! The problem is that a BS CANNOT stop a WS from doing the deed, short of doing something illegal (killing the OM, chaining the WW to the house, etc). So, the issue is that by barging around and knocking on doors will not keep them from doing the deed. It just means they will do it in a way where they wont get caught!

So, knowing that we cannot stop them, then why would we do something that will hurt the other areas that we can do and control???

So, in the end...direct confrontation in this case (without the intel for exposure...which he doesnt have), all he will get is a darker affair and no intel. She will still be bedded by the OM (she probably already has) and in the meantime, his ability to expose has been greatly hampered.

Why cost yourself in the areas you can control and will help you, by doing something that has proven not to work and will not accomplish the intended goal (stopping them from having sex)???

Guys,

Seriously, the odds are low she's heading to the parent's house. The odds are very high she's heading elsewhere, such as his place or a hotel.

She likely wouldn't answer any calls from Marty and use the excuse of "I didn't hear my phone, or was showering, or disconnected it to get some peace and quiet"

Take your pic.

Marty,

You certainly want to think right now, which is very difficult with all the emotions going on.

I've been in your shoes and understand the desperation you feel that your WW may be out doing something with a man.

My WW told me she went to have dinner with one of the men she had met on the net. I went by the restaurant I suspected she was going to be at. Our van wasn't there. That's a tough vehicle to hide.

Was she there? I don't know.

Could I have missed it? Possibly.

Was she with OM#5? Yes. By her own admission. They were just "talking".

Can I prove any differently? No.

So a voice recorder in the car would catch a conversation such as, "Ok, I'm on my way. What hotel was it again? See you in a few." Or something along those lines.

Marty has to think of his kids as well.

Best thing to do is ask a friend to follow her. I had plenty of them which were willing to do so for me.

Catching her in a lie is the red handed catch that he needs. This was the only way exww confessed to anything. She knew I knew when I named names and guys.

My mistake was in revealing how I found out.

Marty, my friend, even having confirmation means that you have to hold your cards to your chest because not confronting properly and with irrefutable evidence makes it so that you can force things further underground if you manage it incorrectly.

So you must come back her and let us do the thinking for you. We're removed from your situation and have advice based on either experience or 20/20 hindsight based on what we wish we had done.

But don't fool yourself. She's not going to mom and dad's to think. If she does, then we're all wrong and you're the one in a million that I've never seen in 3 years on this board.

I don't know of a single circumstance or poster here who would love nothing more than to be proven wrong. But you even have FWWes who did what she did telling you otherwise.

I really hope we're all wrong, but that would go against years of experience in dealing with this.

I can't count how many times I have read the emotional trauma of adultery is like rape or worse to many. Why would you allow yourself to be voluntarily raped? So you can get the evidence on your panties and say ahh haaa I now have evidence that you are a rapist? If you could prevent the rape and don't fear for your life would you lie there and let the rape continue so that you had evidence that sex took place or would you try to stop it, escape and forge ahead on attempted rape charges? There is nothing illegal about adultery and no one is forcing a wayard to do the deed, but the emotional damage would still be there and this would be long term damage IMO.

If a wayward is going to cheat and chooses not to stop, there will be another day to get the evidence. This is not the one and only chance for a BS to get evidence. I'm all for strategy but there is a point where the cost outweighs the benefit. Wars are not won at all costs.

For me it has to do with probabilites and the impact of the event. I personally would not care if there is only a 0.00005% chance at intervening and keeping an EA from becoming a PA. That impact of that event is so large, "damn the probabilities", so to speak.

I will concede that getting "proof" also has a big impact. For me, not as much as the above, but even if it were as much, the probability that this will be the only chance to get that proof, are also really small.

Said another way, Marty may have one chance to stop an EA from becoming a PA, if its already too late for that, then he's going to have plenty of other chances to get proof.

The only way to stop them AND get evidence is to do it the way that runnerboy did it. He followed, saw them get together, spied through a window, and then ran in when they were naked.

You're damned if you do, damned if you don't either way. Catch them just chatting, and you don't have hard evidence and they can twist it to show how "psycho" you are.

Wait too long, and then live with the knowledge that OM is doing your wife.

There's really no right answer here.

They have likely already had sex. The damage of the emotional rape is done. Yes, prepare yourself Marty. Infidelity is it's own type of PTSD. You will fight the mental images and the pain for a long time to come and won't be able to think straight.

It's coming.

But if I could go back in time, feeling how I do now I'd let the act take place to catch them red handed. Then act as cool as a cucumber when I filed for fault, had proof, and got custody of my kids using everything I could against her.

MM was cool and collected and gathered the evidence he needed. When she realized nothing was going her way in court and that she was in a fantasy world she came back and they're now together and in recovery and with a 1 yo son.

MM won by acting as if his marriage was over and taking action to secure his rights as a father. He did it all correctly.

So the end result boils down to this: scoreboard.

MM got his wife back.

I think BHes would get a lot further if they simply think of their wives as lost and then take very aggressive action to preserve their rights as fathers. No greater reality tonic for a WW than the realization that she's going to lose her kids and that nothing will go as she imagined if she continues down that path.

pom

You were looking for a slam dunk for Plan D and custody purposes. Marty is not. If he had Plan D or FU in mind I say go ahead and track her like a dog.

MM already had proof of the A. I haven't read his entire story, but the two cases sound like apples and oranges to me.

The difference between MM and I is that he set his emotions aside and fought for his rights as a father and executed Plan B.

I did not.

I strongly believe that the best hope BHes have is to simply accept that their wives are dead (figuratively speaking) and act as if their rights as fathers are in great jeapordy because there is no greater slap of reality for a WW than seeing that she's NOT getting the kids and she's NOT going to have the fantasy happy existence post divorce that she imagined.

And the fact is that their rights as fathers ARE in great jeopardy.

Strong legal action combined with Plan B is the greatest medicine for a WW's fog.

I have a feeling Marty has confirmed his fears and may be missing for a few days in the bowels of he77.

I'm wondering the same thing.

Here is a scenario though. What if he went to the house and she just wasn't there? If he didn't have her followed by someone, he won't know what hotel she's in. She could weasel her way out of a confession in that case.

Anyway, Marty, we're thinking of you and we're praying for you.

Group, Marty,

First and foremost I would like to personally say to Marty that I feel your pain to the very core of my being and I pray for your well being.

I am a returning member, I was in the same predicament as Marty seven years ago when I discovered my Ws affair, in fact my story is still posted here, i was shocked, it was really a trip to read it all over again, Redhat if your there, let me know youre around....

My story was a MB success story, almost text book if you will. But I will express to you all that it was the most difficult thing I've had to do in my entire life. I would have rather been dragged naked behind a pickup truck over a mile of glass than to endure that torture. It is a series of emotional after shocks that work your mind and body beyond imagination, and for me its worse the second time. Yeah....you read correctly, I discovered my W cheating again last month, so here I am, seven years later, 25 years of marriage an I'm on the same roller coaster ride as Marty. I found out thru a series of email on my wifes iPhone. (BTW, if you have a jailbroke iPhone it can be logged into from a PC, a snoops dream). I was lucky enough to get the goods in one shot.

I used what worked for me from the books and kept the rest under consideration, believe me I'm not gonna wave anybodys flag as to the success of overcoming my W previous A, and resuming our marriage, but I have that knowledge of what worked for me last time and I will use/tailor the concepts this time. Believe I am not a happy camper, I know some of you have had W go out on you more than once. For me this time is sooooooo much worse, I'm seeing red.

I dont yet completely know why my W has had another A but I'm workin on it, I'm borderline plan B, so put me in your prayers.

Marty, we are on a wild ride right now and I'm the car ahead of you. Have in there bro, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it fo you, but this rides about to get kicked up a notch!!!

What you really have to do is ask yourself, "Do I really love my wife enough to go through all this?". For me, last time I said yes, this time I'm really debating it, probably so. The resntment for me was the worse to overcome.

To the rest of you, I can appreciate each and eveyones point of view, I really can. I think its wonderful that we all can learn from each other, I think we all have a piece of Krazy, MyRev, and MrsZ in us, its just how we control all those threads that makes us who we are and how we react, how much power we give over others.

Respectfully,

{{{{Gideon}}}}

I don't know what to say. Do you have a thread started?

This could apply to the way BW treat WHs too. Any BS should be looking to preserve their parental and financial rights as well has protect their children from a WS and their screwed up way of life. Mothers by default probably have more sympathy, but there's no reason a BW can't be just as proactive in this area.

Anyway, what worked for MM worked for him, what worked for MyRev worked for him, what worked for me worked for me and so on. I don't think any of us are necessarily wrong but circumstances, history, personalities, etc all play a part in how a BS proceeds. If it didn't we'd have one thread that says, Do A, B, and C. Do not deviate. The End. Good Luck.

I still think in Marty's specific case that there were other options without producing more possible damage. If I had seen a post from Marty that said he could handle this, was willing to for the "greater good", etc. that's up to him but I didn't see him say that or pointed out to him. I'm concerned he didn't think of the consequences to him, emotionally and mentally, should he take this route.

My suspicion is Marty got all the "evidence" he never wanted to believe and is now in a very dark place.

If that's true, he now knows the true extent of being in the BS "club" that none of us ever thought we be in.

Marty is on my prayer list tonight, in spite of the value of intel.

I'm sure his heart is not in logic mode right now if I'm right.

All Blessings,
Jerry

MrsZ,

I hadnt decided if I should pick up my thread from 7 years ago or start a new one.

Any thoughts?

I have a heavy heart for Marty right now, I just found about my W A on 12/10/08, hard to figure if I'm crying for him or me. Everything seems very broken right now to me.

TTFN

Gideon,
It looks like Pepperband made a thread for you already.
Gideon!

You know who is missing from this thread? MARTY

Bump

Yah, really. I hate when people drop off the radar.

He probably did find out.

Hope he's OK.

Another bump.

Marty, please update us

Marty got exactly what he was told by several posters here. His wife ****edit**** another man.

Some said to stop it, they were shouted down by others (where are they?) who said he needed 'evidence'.

I'm sorry Marty.

How do you know this? Did you talk to him?

One more bump for Marty

Hoping he finds his way back here.....

Because he is busy crying like a baby on the floor in his closet.

No, I didn't talk to him, I just occupied the same floorspace.

Ahhhh. I see. Thanks for clarifying that.

Weird, on a totally random note, it just occurred to me that the words "clairvoyant" and "clarify" are awfully close.

Neak and I were talking yesterday, and we both had been worrying beforehand that he might have lost it during a confrontation, and gotten himself arrested. Crying on the floor of the closet would probably be an improvement over that... :MrEEk:

tl

Yes, Mr. W and I fear the same thing...Marty, please update as soon as you can...Our thoughts and prayers are with you...

Mrs. W

Marty,

Time you pdate things here. Prayers for you and your family are going out.

Definitely time for a "sit rep" from Marty, eh MM?

Mrs. W

I'm sure it's definitely not good news.

OTOH, it took me 2 and 1/2 years of crying on the floor to find this place.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I'm hoping that Marty hasn't met with violence at the hands of WW or OM!

Bumping back to the first page, hoping that maybe Marty's schedule is different on a week day and he'll be online. This really is getting worrisome.

oh well.

Bump

Marty? Please update us.

MrsZ

unhopeful bump

Hello? Hello?

Marty?

You OK?