I'm just wondering what happens after a WW returns to a BH who wants her back. I imagine that there is a period of elation, but can also imagine that there is a lot of hurt, anger, and resentment that a BH feels and takes a really long time to work through, with triggers popping up now and then.

Is this so?

What is recovery like for a BH? Does your wife suddenly turn you off because you imagine her with OM?

In other words I am asking if there is a honeymoon period after the return but a really hard crash once that passes. I ask because I see many BHes here who want their wives to come back very badly but I've often wondered what the cost of that is on an emotional scale.

My mom had tons of resentment towards my dad and she spewed lots of anger at him for years after he tried to end the affair and win her back, but he broke NC just as she was coming around.

I often wonder if the BS lives with "she did it once, why wouldn't she again" forever.

It is so. Some forgive after awhile, some are still working on forgiving.



Recovery is like changing the dressing on a wound, didnt hurt until you had to change it every few hours/days/weeks.


It helps to think that the cause was "poor boundaries" and that anyone is susceptible. Boozing with/out the spouse around is just a recipe for disaster and a example of no or poor boundaries... It helps, but deep down I have trouble believing it.

where is this coming from, can you tell me Pom? .....

Definitely was so in my case. My FWW never left physically, but I went through the same phases above when she chose to stay after D-Day.



Long and hard. I did get turned off every now and then with thoughts of my FWW with the OM, but those faded after awhile. Now the thoughts the bug me are those that concern self-worth and the occasional fear that she might indulge in adultery again.



I got both the honeymoon period and the crash.



Sounds very familiar.

Pom: I'll try to answer your Qs since I'm going through this for second time. Remember, first time (A#1) I had no idea about Harley's principles. Just worked with counselor and did my best (which was not very good).

First affair I booted wife from our apt for about two weeks. We stayed in counseling together, saw each other here and there. The A was over, but WW still in school with OM. WW was really wanting to make things right in our marriage.

When she did come home it was a honeymoon period -- lots of emotions, crazy good sex (SF is high on my ENs), intense.

Did crash after a while, which I know now is normal. Yes, triggers (TV, movies, print ads) really played with my mind. There were times when we were getting intimate and I would think of OM. That's hard. Looking back I should have talked more with WW about my feelings. Took us a long time to work through things. We did end up moving to new town, which was great for our relationship.


I'm there brother! As time wore on the thought of the first affair faded. It became like a scar from a horrible accident that you look at, remember the pain, but it doesn't hurt as bad.

Remember, I didn't know Harley's principles until just a few weeks ago. So looking back on A#2 I can see the things I did to contribute to the affair. I'm not responsible for my WW taking initiative to start and continue an affair. She owns that completely.

I will be honest with you and say this affair has been easier to deal with. Yes, it's ANOTHER AFFAIR. But by the grace of God I was lead to MB.com. The people here have been so supportive and the information sooooo good for me to read. And it helps that the A had been over for over a month when DDay#2 came around. The OM basically cut off communication with WW and she decided to work on marriage before I knew what was up, before DDay#2.

So I'm working on my marriage. It's going to take a long time to figure of if this marriage is going to work or not. I've got to be patient. I've got to stick with a strong Plan A.

RMX,

There's no personal developments that are prompting this question. It's something I've been chewing on because I see so many of the BHes on the board caught up in trying to get their wives back while she's out actively engaged in an affair.

I advise them on what to do to get her back and secure their rights as fathers, yet I ask myself about the cost of really having the WW return.

The question was prompted by a BH on the board who does have a wife who returned, yet insists on keeping a friendship with OM. He is actually questioning whether or not to allow this and I just see it as a state of delusion in the BH.

I just imagine there is a point where a BH has had enough and is then done.

So I ask myself about what I'm really advising men to do with taking a cheating wife back. I imagine what it would be like if I was them.

I would have been thrilled to have my family back in terms of getting to see the kids all the time, but my feelings for the WW would have been really, really squashed. I could have seen a state of happiness at first followed by a real crash and real resentment that would have taken years to get past.

So my divorce life sucked for a while, but it isn't looking so bad anymore and I value the time I have with the kids and the freedom I have to pursue other things.

So I wonder about the advice I give about getting a WW to come back and think that it would help BHes to know that life as an involved divorced dad isn't terrible and is a perfectly viable alternative to taking back a cheating wife.

It's just something I've been wrestling with.

A BS needs to set clear return requirements...and those requirements should be the same ones that would have been included in a plan B letter if it had gone to that route.

NC with OW/OM forever.

Marriage counselling to help identify issues that led the affair, and fix those. (boundary building, etc...)

Open book transparency.

pom,

I've not posted in a week or so over basically this same issue.

The more that I'm around MB ... the more I see strengths and WEAKNESSES within the program.

MB is VERY good at giving marriages struggling with infidelity a common language to discuss easily misinterpreted emotions/feelings ... actually THIS LANGUAGE has been the most valuable aspect of MB to us in our R.

MB also provides a very good blueprint for STOPPING an A, "IF" the BH has the "stones" to do it properly.

However, RECOVERY after infidelity ... especially for BH/WW situations ... as defined by MB is mostly just a pipe dream. Sure there are a few positive examples that are usually trotted out, but they are miniscule in their percentage when viewed in the context of just how many HUNDREDS of situations come through these forums on the average year. Actually, the scarcity of positive examples of R serves to prove the RULE rather than the exception.

I've seen it posted here ... and I have found it to be SPOT-ON ... "The GREATEST determining factor of marital R is the WW's attitude immediately after discovery".

Those WW's that STOP the A upon discovery and show some form of remourse for their actions have a fair to good chance of recovering their families. Those that continue to cake-eat, disrespect their BH's, rub their BH's faces in their A's, etc. (the vast majority) rarely return as a suitable marital partner for their BH.

With all of that said, pom ... I actually think you are one of the better "vocies of reason" here at MB. You haven't drank the kool-aid, but have recognized the program for what it is ... good and bad. This thread alone shows your ability for "independent thought".

I also see a lot of bogus statistics thrown out here to pump up a BH to make him think that they can overcome their WW's A that simply don't hold up under scrutiny. When I look around my community and circle of acquaintances ... there is a MUCH higher percentage of WW/OM who wind up M'd than the 2-5% I see here stated often. They also don't appear to D at a higher rate or quicker than other M's from my perspective, but we see BH's fed this misinformation daily.

We also see MANY BH here at MB that claim to be in a recovered M, but once you read some more about the situations they continue to endure ... I wouldn't define their M's as recovered by any definition that I would find acceptable.

The facts remain that MOST marriages will not survive the infidelity of a WW ... and this forum is doing BH's a disservice by giving them false hope in those situations that involve cake-eating, an OC, serial adultery, etc.

It is my opinion that MORE BH's would be helped here at MB if they were advised and directed to REALLY look at their WW's character, including their relationship history prior to even considering attempting R.

In fact, many a golden opportunity is MISSED here at MB by advising a BH to Plan A a hopeless situation, when the BH would be better served to use his WW's fog against her to negotiate a much better custody and property settlement agreement from her in her delusional state, when she is inclined to give up almost everything to pursue her fantasy.

Yes, there is a honeymoon period at the beginning of recovery. For us, it lasted about 6 weeks until we passed our first trigger anniversary. I was hit with a wave of anger and resentment that I couldn't even begin to describe. I was constantly reminded of the A. It has been a long time and I still have struggles with it from time to time. It doesn't sting quit as much as it used to, but it's still always there in some form or fashion.



At times, yes. I had to be the one to initiate SF for a while. Not exactly easy when thoughts of the A are bouncing around in your head. After a while though, this has faded.


It's HUGE! Our situation was pretty tame compared to most others on these boards and the emotional tool it has taken on me has been immense. What doesn't get discussed much here is that getting your WS to attempt recovery is the easy part. Recovery is even harder I think. Trying to let the past be the past and returning to some normalcy takes A LOT of work. That's why I believe it is so important to set the bar very high to attempt recovery.


The sliver of doubt still bothers me every now and then. I've never been one to say that I was a lousy husband so I can see how this happened. In fact, I was at the very least an above average husband. I was completely and totally invested in our M pre-a. I did everything I knew to be a good husband and it wasn't good enough. Don't get me wrong, our M wasn't perfect, but it wasn't BAD either. At least that was my opinion of it and yet I ended up here anyways.

Want2Stay

This is spot on in most cases!

pom, this is why it is real important to have a plan for recovery IN PLACE before one gets back together. Just taking a WS back without a plan is likely to be a DISASTER leading to more resentment. But when there is a plan to recover the marriage and firm affair proofing boundaries in place, it makes recovery possible.

Marriage Builders never implies otherwise.

Even so, there will always be triggers, resentments, etc. That is a realistic expectation that cannot be removed.



Requirements for Recovery from an Affair

I would like to see the "percentages" that brought you to this conclusion. That is bad news indeed!

Additionally, MyRev, since we are speaking of success statistics, I would like to see yours. If we are going to hold Marriage Builders to such a standard, you should be willing to submit to the same, no? How many marriages have you saved using your advice? As much as Dr Harley?

No doubt its a good THEORY, but many theories can't stand up to reality ... and the good Dr. recognizes this, although above message is MINIMIZED on these forums.

READ his words ... "even small deviations from that plan ae usually disastrous" ... THAT is where the rubber meets the road in real world recoveries. How many BH's, or WW's for that matter, have you seen here (percentage wise) CAPABLE of following ANY plan without "small deviations"?

The next sentence ... "But when its followed, it always works" ... is just plain FALSE. When I see anyone tout ... ALWAYS or NEVER ... espeically when dealing with all of the variables in human relationships, then common sense tells me that they are being less than objective.

Look, I'm pro-MB or I wouldn't waste my time here ... but that doesn't mean that I accept everything without question.

Melody,

The reason I started this thread is because I believe that wayward husbands desire to return to their wives far more often than wayward wives do. I see BHes here who hang on to hope forever and get nowhere.

The ones who wake their wives up do things that don't seem to fall into the MB plans by basically declaring full out war, cutting off contact, and going all out for custody and to make the life of the OM miserable.

At worst they come away with their rights as father's preserved. At best they come away with lifting the fog of the WW.

I just see such massive fog in BHes that I see that I was the norm, not the exception. Almost all the BHes I see here are afraid to tick off the WW and the one thing which really holds them hostage is the fear of losing their children, often because of mis-conceptions that the legal system favors women. It favors women because BHes often do what I did and appease and let her keep everything and make things easy because they still think that they can get their wives back.

But the BHes who dig in for a hard fight and bring their WWes to the brink of losing custody are ironically the ones who wake their WWes out of the fog.

Look at Chrisner. Wayzilla is as foggy as ever and he's executed a masterful Plan A, an excellent Jimmy Hoffa Plan B from the darkside of Pluto, and his WW is still super foggy and living in La La land and the years and years of their marriage means nothing to her.

He's happy now, dating again, and has a great relationship with his daughter. How would he be doing if she had come back and was wrestling with the triggers and with recovery?

I'm basically wondering if recovery is really worth it for a BH.

Look at my story. I messed everything up from the start. Totally hosed it all. But my biggest regret when I look back isn't that I didn't get my WW to return, it's that I was a doormat who appeased and let her keep everything, which resulted in a 3 year legal battle for me to secure my rights as a father.

I don't think my personal recovery would have taken as long if I had fought hard from the start, gone for full custody, used the information I had at the time against my ex (she wasn't a good mom and left most of the care of the kids to the nannies and me along with her anxiety issues and "diseases").

So I look at the life I have now and see the hope of having a good relationship with a good woman who has real values and is an excellent example for my children versus the sloppy seconds I would have ended up with if she had returned.

I think of the cost to me of taking back a cheating wife and of the sacrifice I would have had to make in terms of my pride, my conscience, the triggers, and the everlasting feeling of "she did it once" almost seem like a worse alternative than what I have now. I have freedom to pursue my dreams again.

I have a good amount of time with my children and am very involved in their lives. I plan to get even more involved in their lives as they get older.

I've been dating and have met wonderful women who have goals in life and would be actual partners in a marriage and who would engage me as an equal.

I also think the greatest mistake I made was in compromising in terms of religion and marrying someone who had no belief system whatsoever. It was shortsighted of me to think that a person who doesn't believe in God would actually honor a promise made to God and what is a holy covenant. I want to be with someone who sees marriage in this way and actually believes that vows made before God are to be kept.

This seems to be a key thing in what helped MM get his wife to return.

I've just been really wrestling about the advice I've been giving men lately. I feel their best hope is to hunker down and prepare for all out war and that THAT is what will wake the WW up from the fog above anything else.

So I share these thoughts with other posters on this board to see what they may think.

Melodylane,

I'm very curious about something and please correct me if I'm wrong.

I've seen you post a number of times that you believe MB principles are best yet claim you yourself could not do them.

I don't mean to sound snarky, but how could you give advice you would not follow yourself?

Again, if I'm mistaken please clarify.

Pom,

When we finally hit true recovery, there was the honeymoon period (that was when the one year old was conceived ). But as I will put in my update I am working on, it wasnt too long after that in which I hit the wall.

I was warned about it but didnt expect it. As Dr. Harley states, once you are in true recovery, the FBS is the biggest threat to the marriage. I was too.

Luckily, my wife and I went to the Marriage Builders Weekend during the honeymoon period and she was able to immerse herself into the principles and to understand where we had been and where things were likely to go. So, when I went into my "funk," she understood.

There was no way to quickly get out of it either. I was going to have to go thru this, and she would have to tag along and help me through it. But it was going to take as long as it took.

On the other issue, I think it is harder to break up a OM/WW affair because women tend to have reached the no-return point once they decide to jump into an affair. And to them, there isnt much left. So, they are adament about leaving. And the affair tends to be just a way to escape.

My wife was no different than the rest of the WWs, contrary to what MyRev wrote above. It is why the battle went on so long and why it was so hard. Personally, after being here for this long and reading all of this, I believe that BHs have it much harder than BWs.

But Pom is right. The BIGGEST reason was that even when we deviated from the plan (and was a disaster as someone posted from Dr. Harley above), I made sure we got right back on the plan and tried to move forward. But within that, the main reason we are together today is my wife was fighting against someone bigger than me, bigger than the Troll (OM). She was fighting against God.

And as long as I was following Him and trusting Him, she didnt have a chance!

Your thread wasn't directed to anyone like me (BW who abandoned marital recover early), but I do feel the need to address one of your statements:


I know many of the ones you talk about here, but I disagree that they don't fall into the MB plans. They actually run the plans to a T - and quickly. It seems many new BS's interpret Plan A to be "make your WS happy at all costs." That is not it at all. Exposure and any other assault on the affair is a critical part of plan A. Those you describe as declaring full out war - do this part immediately and well. The longer this is delayed, the worse the chances appear to be - at least among BH's that post here.

BW's also appear to put more effort into the carrot of Plan A than the stick, but perhaps their increased success has to do with the relative importance of the emotional part of an affair in men vs. women. I'm really not sure if this is accurate or not (just a hunch really) but it seems women are more likely to be emotionally attached to their AP than men, so it's easier for men to let go of them when they see a difference in their BW performing a stellar plan A.

For what it's worth, with respect to this statement: I see a lot of BW's hanging on to hope forever getting nowhere as well.

Pom, you're looking backward a lot here. Hindsight is 20/20 - it's too easy to say woulda, coulda, shoulda from this perspective. You didn't know up front what was to be. It's worth examining because you want to learn from your mistakes, but don't get mired in it. You don't know how long your personal recovery would have taken if you'd chosen a different path. You may have still been a mess. At least now you have a better education of what a relationship, especially marriage, is supposed to be and what it takes to succeed.

ALL are capable of doing it. Unfortunately, many are not willing. Do you have a better plan?

Well, how could I NOT recommend them to others if I know they work? If I know a plan works, how could I NOT recommend it to others even though I know I could not do it myself? Many here are fully able and willing to do them. I am not.

Yes, I have been looking back a lot. I had a dream the other night that I got my wish and went back in time to a time when my boys were not born yet and it was just WW and my DD before the WW became a WW.

I spent the whole dream running away from the wife and seeking an ally to help me prepare for a custody fight. I remember actively ignoring the wife who was trying to contact me and I wouldn't speak with her because I knew what was coming.

So I've been reflecting quite a bit on what I should have done versus what I did and what difference that would have made.

I've come to accept my new life here, but realize that I had just as much of a chance to fight for full custody in Kansas as anywhere else and either stayed there or requested legal permission to divorce and take my kids to California where I think they would have had a wonderful life with my family there and wouldn't spend 11 hours a day in a daycare.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I guess I'm just wrestling with the regrets of what I could have done versus what I did and I see many BHes here who are making all the same mistakes I did and I want to help them very badly and keep them from losing custody of their kids.

It's as if they are condemned men who haven't accepted their fate and are hanging on and waiting for a reprieve that will never come. They need to take action to protect their rights and I'm seeing that most men lose custody of their kids because they give it away and not because they do what is necessary to protect themselves.

That's what's heartbreaking to witness.

I myself just could not take advice from someone who would not adhere to it themselves.

I think you meant ALL are able and SOME are willing?

pom, I agree it is heartbreaking and this is where I think you can be useful to others. The biggest takeaway I got from your situation is to never believe a wayward and to NEVER EVER cooperate in the destruction of your marriage. I seem to remember that you cooperated all the way because you believed that appeasement would have its benefits. It did not.

So, I am glad to see you posting to these men, because you can be a voice of wisdom in showing them WHAT NOT TO DO.

That doesn't make any sense, IAM. Not everyone's personalities are the same. Some may very well be able to execute these plans, others cannot because of various reasons of personality/temperament. And others choose to just end the marriage. This is not a one-size fits all.

Plan A takes an amazing amount of personal control over ones emotions in order to be effective. Not everyone has that ability or willingness. Doesn't mean they can't show others how it is done.

Dr. Harley says he wouldn't do it, yet he has saved thousands of marriages with his plans.

Let me put it another way, I would not choose to ever do Plan A. But does that mean that others can't either? Or that there is something wrong with Plan A? Of course not. We are all different so, of course, plan A's suitability will not be the same for each and every person.

But my unwillingness to do Plan A does not mean I can't tell others what I know about that. There would be no legitimate reason NOT TO.

And for all the reasons you just stated (temperment, personality, etc) are exactly WHY I could not take advice from someone who would not follow it themselves. See?

As far as the 'ability and willingness' go I submit this, your own words.

iam,

I couldn't follow the advice I give because of the emotional state I was in. I give that advice because I look back now and wish I actually did what I'm advising others to do. I would look back and be proud of what I did and not ashamed of the doormat I became.

I literally begged on my knees. Nothing makes me shake my head more than to look back on this as pathetic and I don't want other men to make the mistake of appeasement that I made.

So I advise others to do things I couldn't do because I was too afraid to do it.

Nothing wrong with giving someone an ideal they can try to follow.

Heck, all of us can try to be like Jesus, yet all of us will fail. But making a strong attempt to follow his teachings (or whatever religion you follow) will pay greater dividends in life than not following any of the teachings.

Just a thought. An ideal is an ideal. It's like a theoretical constant that doesn't exist in real life. But pursuing the ideal can lead to excellence. The strive for perfection leads to excellence.

So, why are you here? Dr. Harley even said he thinks he couldnt follow this. And he is the guy that came up with all of this. So, why are you at Marriage Builders, when you just said that you cant follow the advice of someone that would not follow it themselves?

WHY NOT? Just because someone would not choose to do Plan A does not mean they shouldn't help someone who DOES choose to do Plan A. You are not making any sense at all.

For example, if someone asks you for directions to New York City [and you know the directions] would you refuse to tell them because you are not willing to go to New York City?

Does that make any sense to you?

I guess you could ask Dr. Harley the same thing?

I'm here because I believe in the Plan as long as the wayward is immediately remorseful.

Maybe you would prefer a forum where everyone agrees with you everytime?

You make as much sense to me as I do to you.

You're analogy doesn't fit.

If my doctor told me I needed surgery to save my life then told me he 'personally' wouldn't have it if he was me, I'd find another doctor.

ML,

FWIW, I agree with "THIS" post of yours. However, your "words" of "This is not a one-size fits all" here doesn't match your past "actions".

If you will recall Marty's predicament last week that this forum allowed to effectively run in the ditch ... I made a post to Marty inquiring about personality type PRIOR to ever advising him about anything:


... and Marty responded with:


I then advised him accordingly, but you primarily, along with the help of a few others reduced that exchange to a petty bickering match, ***edit***... and worst of all, WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM MARTY SINCE!!!

Now here you are arguing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you posted last week ... that this is all about differing personality types, etc.

As the senior poster here at MB, you wield a pretty big stick, ****edit****, and I guess I need to know going forward if posters like myself, iam, Krazy and others can post our experiences, including the contradictions we've found along our journey's, (as long as they are within the terms of service) or if we are going to be shouted down and selectively deleted if we don't "toe the company line" ***edit***

You see, the way I see it is that we're ALL different, and who knows in the beginning which personality type will resonate with a particular poster. Therefore, ALL perspectives should be allowed to voice their experiences with the poster then being able to choose which plan or tactic best suits his particular personality and circumstances.

I believe that what Dr. Harley is saying is that the BS has the right to terminate the marriage if cheated on, but that if the BS chooses not to and wants his WW to return that he has a plan for how to do it based on his experience as a psychologist.

Unless I'm wrong, I interpret Dr. Harley saying that he doesn't think he could Plan A and forgive infidelity if he experienced it himself.

The fact of the matter is that a BS is the one who is the ultimate determinant on whether or not to save a marriage. Harley has a plan on how to get the wayward back and setup the betrayed to carry on with their lives.

Plan A isn't meant to be a long term thing, especially for betrayed husbands.

I also think that Plan A is often mistaken here as "love unconditionally and swallow your pride" when that's not the case at all.

Hunkering down and playing hardball is certainly in line with Plan A since you're letting the wayward know that you'll be happy to treat her like a wife when she starts behaving like one, but that until she does, then the stick of Plan A is in full effect.

Plan B is hard to do when you have litle kids.

Much easier when they're grown.

Which is EXACTLY why I am wondering why yo uare still here, since you dont believe what the good Dr. here says...and the Dr. here states he couldnt do it.

Why havent you gone elsewhere to see a different Dr.?

Your analogy does not make sense, though, because it does not take into account that many do not CHOOSE to save their marriages. Your analogy assumes that the doctor and patient both have the same goal. What is they DON'T?

Nor are most WS's "remorseful" after the affair. That is the exception, not the rule. It is an expectation that they usually are not. Yet, marriages are saved.

I've already answered that question for you.

I believe Plan A WILL work.....with a remorseful wayward.

I believe Exposure WILL end an affair.

I believe Plan B WILL ease the pain of a BS.

I just don't believe in Plan A'ing someone whose dropping their panties/pants on the floor for someone other than their spouse.

I've already answered that question for you.

I believe Plan A WILL work.....with a remorseful wayward.

I believe Exposure WILL end an affair.

I believe Plan B WILL ease the pain of a BS.

I just don't believe in Plan A'ing someone whose dropping their panties/pants on the floor for someone other than their spouse.

[/quote]

I think you should plan A so that they remember how good you were to them instead of only having their revisionist history to lean on. Even if they dont come back at least they will have more regrets through life.

You define 'saved' differently than I do then.

I, personality type that I am, wouldn't want a 'non-remorseful' wayward back. I deserve better.

Nonsense as usual. I believe that YOU were bickering with other posters on the thread who were advising Marty not to make ANY hasty decisions while under duress. If anyone was "bickering" it was YOU.

No we don't. Some choose to save their marriages, some don't. You still don't answer the question of differing goals or WHY someone who knows how plan A operates would not share that information with others. WHY NOT?

you are not making any sense, IAM and keep changing the argument. Why wouldn't anyone who knows about Plan A help others?

Thank you for your reply.

I have seen several of you post about "other" infidelity boards ... MB is the only infidelity board that I frequent, although at one time I participated in another that is now inactive ... can any of you recommend another infidelity board that advocates a stronger approach for BH's???

Frankly it's because if you BELIEVE it you would DO IT!

And cut the 'not making sense' comments. It's juvenile.

Shouted down? huh? You think you should be free to contradict Marriage Builders and we can't contradict YOU? Wouldn't that be a one way street? If you want to freely contradict MB principles, shouldn't others feel free to contradict you? Why would you be exclusively entitled to contradict but not others?



Actually, MyRev, you are not being HONEST. You told this man to kick his wife out if she did not end her affair IMMEDIATELY. Very stupid and shortsighted advice. You were pushing and badgering him into making a HASTY DECISION while under duress, which makes me SICK:

MyRev: " I simply see the BH enforcing a boundary to not allow his WW to disrespect him by carrying on her ongoing A while still living in the marital home."

The man came here to get help saving his marriage, and you and your kick em to the curb crowd told him to kick his wife out while he was in a state of great mental duress. He did not know if he wanted to save his marriage yet and you were pushing him to make a decision.

NOWHERE does Dr. Harley tell people to kick their spouse out. In fact, he advises against it. This man was ill served here by your little gang and by the bickering you caused on his thread by attacking others and attcking MB principles.

Not at all. One can believe in the plans but not want to save their marriage. Not everyone chooses to save their marriage. Again, you make no sense.

Guys,

I think we're disagreeing on semantics. The purpose of my thread was to provoke some thought about feelings I've had lately. I don't know if I'd want to save my marriage if i went back in time. I don't know if the cost of recovery and settling for sloppy seconds with my wife was worth the price of recovery.

My point in this thread is that I feel betrayed husbands have a tall order and a higher amount of failure due to the differences between men and women.

I understand how a WH would rather return to his family after the fog lifts. I understand, as a man, how SF is SF and it can be done without emotions involved.

I just don't think that women are the same in that regard and that a WW that has crossed the line into a PA appears to me to be a lost cause.

I've tried advising many newly betrayed husbands on this board and really feel that most are driven by the fear of losing their kids and contact with their kids than they are by love for their WW.

It's what drove me for a long time.

Yet now I see on the other side that the court system is evolving and that fathers are getting their just due and that family court isn't the woman's domain anymore. Good fathers get recognition and being a divorced good dad is a better alternative than living in a state of limbo for years with a woman who is basically an incarnation of evil and a massive source of disrespect.

MM, I commend you for waiting 4 years. I don't think I could have done it with my WW if she was actively in an affair that involved a fantasy relationship with another man. My exww had brief encounter with strangers from the internet.

I could see myself really struggling upon her return from and don't know if I could have handled it if her physical betrayal had gone further than it did.

I know the goal of this board is Marriage Building. I just think that we have to let the betrayed husbands understand that it isn't the end of the world on the other side and that it may be preferable to taking sloppy seconds by taking back a woman with no morals, no sense of committment, and no sense of values and then trying to work your way through the triggers once that happens.

MM, I really believe that being in the military was a big part of the challenge for you in your case and part of why you have had a successful recovery is that you're no longer there.

For me, there has been no honeymoon period. My FWW was gone for 3 years and 9 months. She hasn't been back long enough for me to comment on what will happen next.


No.


I don't think I will live with this feeling. It just isn't going to happen. This is not a statement of blind trust in my FWW. It's just I can't envision any way that I would ever have the "blinders" on like I did before.

I haven’t been around here much lately, but I saw this topic and just couldn’t resist jumping in.

First, let me say that I am a firm believer in Dr Harley’s teachings. I have applied both the stick and the carrot of Plan A in my situation and I have had tremendous results. I am glad that I worked to save my marriage and I see a great future ahead for us. Like MyRev, I think he does a tremendous job of giving us a language to communicate about different aspects of marriage and we have used this platform to rebuild and improve our marriage.

But, I also think that it takes a special person to carry out the plans properly to accomplish TRUE recovery. It is obvious to me that in many cases we continue to push new posters to continue in Plan A when they obviously don’t have the personality to follow through with a full Plan A(both carrot and STICK). What they end up with is a WS that returns to the marriage, but the marriage is really no better, and in many ways, worse than it was pre-A.

I am now far enough into recovery that I can testify to how hard true recovery truly is. I had a WW that was totally repentant and committed to recovery shortly after d-day and it is still very hard. There was definitely a honeymoon period, but that doesn’t last very long before things go back to “normal.” It’s only because both I and my WIFE bought into the concepts presented here that we have been able to weather the difficulties (mostly on my part ) associated with recovery. Thing go great for a while, but then she’ll neglect my needs for a few days and I start to get angry and question why I signed up for this ride. I get particularly jealous and angry when my needs are neglected because of her being so tied up taking care of this new baby which was a result of her affair. I know I fall short at meeting her needs every bit as much as she does mine, but it’s hard not to have a little bit of an attitude of I took you back after what you did so you owe me.

I guess the bottom line is that I still recommend Plan A to almost everyone who finds themselves in this situation because I think it is the best plan out there for recovering broken marriages. But, I am quick to back off when it becomes apparent that the BS just doesn’t have the strength to FULLY implement Plan A, including setting firm boundaries, exposure, and meeting ENs w/o becoming a doormat

RB,

You're one of the stories I'm talking about. You're now raising an OC and have a situation that was forced on you. The jury is still out if this has a chance for long term success but one clear boundary of mine was that I was no way ever going to raise a child that wasn't mine. Absolutely no way.

I say that simply because I know myself and my attitude about "blood".

That child wouldn't be blood. I would foreve see him/her as an outsider to my marriage.

Not good for the child.

You're trying and I commend you for it, but I feel it's more of an imposed sentence you're enduring because your WW certainly has a win/win situation with you taking her back. She gets the genes for her offspring from another man and gets you to raise him/her as the "provider".

AW3 didn't take his WW back and appears to be pretty happy without her in his life.

The more I'm on this board and the more I hear the stories of BHes the less hope I feel about advising men to take their wives back and putting in the effort to get them back.

I feel that a five alarm fire should be going off in their heads about how much danger they face in terms of losing custody of their kids.

Some have been able to do it, such as Mr. W and Mrs W, who I admire greatly. Same with MM.

Your situation sucks in every way. But you choose it and that's good for you if you're willing to deal with the challenges you face.

Perhaps I'm just disillusioned by the flood of BHes who have come here lately and who seem to be the same doormats that I was 3 years ago. I feel for them and wish I could give them strength to do what they need to to secure their rights as fathers. It's that action that gives them the best hope of waking the WW out of the fog, but it preserves their rights if she doesn't snap out of it.

pom,

Very well stated.

I've tried to participate in this thread, but my words have either been purposefully twisted out of context, OR I was unclear in my delivery, OR I was too harsh in some of my criticisms, which put some on the defensive.

Anyway ... regardless of my difficulties, I wanted to try to set the record straight by saying that what I was trying to articulate, is exactly what you posted.

Thank You.

I'm sorry you can't comprehend logic.

I've already answered that question for you.

I believe Plan A WILL work.....with a remorseful wayward.

I believe Exposure WILL end an affair.

I believe Plan B WILL ease the pain of a BS.

I just don't believe in Plan A'ing someone whose dropping their panties/pants on the floor for someone other than their spouse.

[/quote]

Exposure doesn't end an affair. My WW and her OM were BOTH exposed. I know I exposed him to his wife, not to mention those he worked with. I exposed her as well.

It didn't do a darn thing to stop the affair. It seemed to bring them close together.

There are so many variables that one plan cannot work for all cases.

So simple statements like exposure ends affairs are way too simple to reflect all realities.

Well EE, the fastest horse doesn't always win, but it's still the best bet...

Mrs. W

The simple reality is exposure DID end my wife's affair and I know of others who had the same experience.

Nothing ALWAYS works but like MrsW said - back the fastest horse.

I agree with this. If not for the anxiety and sheer panic I was feeling, I would have realized tat my XW's true character was that of a remorseless, serial cheater and that she ,most likely, has a personality disorder.
I had the opportunity, early on to get a much better deal inthe divorce as she was willing to give away the store and go unrepresented while I had a lwayer.
Instead, liie a frightened idiot, I waited and let her affair continue for 3 months before fiing, hoping she would come around. It husrt my settlement,a lthough I stilldid alright.
I beleive the truth is that few marriages survive and it can work to a BS's advantage to use the fog as a window of opportunity.

I think there are two things here that are getting mixed up. One is ending an affair. The other is recovering from an affair by your WW.

Plan A, when done with both the carrot and the stick will often, though not always lead to the end of the affair. I agree with the previous statement, the fastest horse doesn't always win, but if I am going to bet, it probably wouldn't be on the 40:1 long shot but on the fastest with the best record.

And considering that marital therapists have about a 16% success rate and usually never get around to identifying an affair until the divorce is in the works, I will still place my bet on MB.

Frank Pittman has said that he never found a case where a couple ended up divorced after counseling with him other than where infidelity was taking place. There were a few cases where that seemed to be true but it was later discovered that an affair was taking place during his time counseling the couple. After years of counseling he can point to only a handful where infidelity was not the ultimate cause of a divorce and believes that he just doesn't know the truth yet in those.

If a WW (or WH for that matter) ends the affair and is instantly remorseful upon confrontation with no effort put into either the carrot or the stick of Plan A by the BS I would suggest that they are a statistical anomaly rather than a case to be held up as even the ideal. The statistically typical WS does NOT end the affair at once and will NOT show remorse even once the affair has ended.

This is in part because in order to become wayward in the first place a person uses resentments that have been saved up from the beginning of the marriage and even before in order to justify the affair, not to others, but to him or herself. This is especially true I think for wayward wives who usually decide that the marriage is untenable before jumping into the bed of OM. This coupled with a tendency to rewrite the history of the relationship in order to make the BS the bad guy means that the WS has pretty much decided that the AP is the solution to his or her happiness.

Confrontation often throws the WS off balance and causes him or her to question their own logic and justifications, but even then they are in the affair because they GET something from the AP and this is something they are not often willing to give up.

The fact that seldom does a WS say that he or she wants a divorce until confronted suggests that they do not really want the marriage to end at all but what they really want is to continue the affair while remaining married because of the things they get from the BS. OM might flip a WW's switch in ways she feels her H never did, but she knows a good stable family guy when she sees one and instinctively knows OM isn't likely to be able to sustain THAT kind of support structure.

What the WW (and WH to a lesser degree) usually wants is to have the affair until it burns out, take what they want form it and the OM (or OW) and then return to a "normal" life with the BS. So while the BS is trying desperately to get the WS to give up the AP, the WS is doing all that can be done to keep the AP in the loop in whatever way can be negotiated. This is what Plan A is meant to overcome. If the WS shows remorse, ends the affair and agrees to a plan of recovery that includes everything the BS asks for, in essence an unconditional surrender before the first shot is fired, then Plan A is not needed though real recovery requires some of the same self examination from the BS as Plan A in order to affair-proof, within reason, the relationship going forward.

Consider what your reaction would be if you were being pushed to give up that recreational activity that brought you the most joy in life. Or imagine if you were told that the only way you could remain married would be to never have any contact with any member of your family ever again for as long as you lived. This is what a WS is being asked to do and very few of them will be willing to do it without a fight.

Much is said around here that a WS chooses to have an affair. That is true, but it is also true that they chose the affair partner. They chose to have an affair with OM/OW and not just as a way to hurt the BS in most cases. So they are now being asked to choose to NOT have the AP in their life.

For those who choose to fight for their marriage as a BS, consider this. Your WS has to choose to NOT fight for the affair partner in order for you to win. As hard as it is for you to give up your spouse, it could be as hard for your spouse to give up OM/OW, at least in the beginning stages of Plan A.

Now all this ignores the logic of remaining married in a relationship that should have enough good history to overcome the selfish attitude of the WS eventually and that the marriage was in fact good enough to warrant going to the trouble of not only saving it but rebuilding it as well.

And rebuilding it is what recovery is all about. And as alluded to already, recovery is even harder than Plan A for most and entering recovery is no assurance that it will lead to a better marriage or even a recovered one and not even guarantee that divorce will be avoided.

The question that eventually needs answering is whether or not the marriage is worth trying to save and rebuild. If I have a 1957 Chevy, I might be willing to put a lot of effort and money into rescuing it from the bottom of a ravine and completely rebuilding it from the ground up. A Pacer might not be worth the effort and a 2004 Civic that has been abused on a daily basis by a teenager delivering pizzas would hardly be worth the expense of a frame up restoration. But each BS gets to decide if the restoration is worth the effort.

When confronted my wife did not agree to end her affair though she did not see OM in person again after that. She did talk to him on the phone and usually right afterward would make my life a hell I do not wish to revisit by telling me she was done with our marriage, wanted a divorce and would never give OM up. She also kept up email contact with him for a while and it was really but a short time in the scheme of things before she began real NC though it seemed like an eternity.

While she was still in contact I continued to expose, did my best to make myself a better choice than OM and reminded her of our history together while doing what I could to keep her from having any time with OM even on the phone and email, though while she was not with me physically it was not really possible for me to prevent. But it didn't stop me from making her realize that unless she gave up OM she was not going to walk away with half of the marital assets and a comfortable lifestyle that I would be paying for.

My first exposure was to her twin sister who I told about the affair before I even confronted her and friends and family followed soon after, some again before I confronted her about the affair. Everyone who was exposed to was shocked since they considered it to be completely out of character for her and no one was telling her that she should "follow her heart" or any of that Hollywood type garbage that passes for advice these days.

Once she committed to ending the affair and agreed to work on our marriage, it was still months before she ever showed any signs of being remorseful. The first few weeks, I was relieved that it seemed I was going to win the battle but she was miserable. I would say that if she had just simply and suddenly given up OM and wanted to get into MC and all the rest, showing that she was willing to work on recovery we might not have recovered at all (though we are still "recovering" and not yet "recovered" IME, though she might disagree). To think that she was willing to leave me because she fell in love with some jerk hurts. To think that she was willing to climb into bed with some random any old guy who came along and was really trying to destroy our marriage or just acting like a sl^t makes me think the end product isn't worth the effort.

So was my wife remorseful? Yes.
Was she immediately remorseful and willing to end her affair? Not by a long shot.
Has she shown remorse and a willingness to try to make our marriage better than it was so that it can't happen again? Without a doubt, she has.
Does the affair still haunt both of us? Yep.

Plan A is hard but only needed under two conditions. 1) You want to try to save the marriage and 2) Recovery isn't the first choice of your WS. Unless both of these are present, there is no need to Plan A.

Recovery is harder because that is where the real trials come into play. It's in recovery we fix what's broken, throw out that which no longer serves its intended purpose and try to make an effort to rebuild a wreck that was destined for the scrapyard and to make it BETTER than showroom new condition, since the way it came from the showroom was flawed enough to break down in the first place.

The reason a 1957 is so rare is because not many fixed them when they broke down and now it is rare to see one in usable condition. And a completely restored one is much more valuable than it was when new.

A recovered marriage can be the same way. What makes one so valuable is that they are rare. And they are rare because not many are willing to fix them when they break down.

But not everyone who sets out to restore either one from the ground up will end up with a completed project though some will stay with it and keep working at it till the day they die.

And some will give up and move on to something else because they are tired of the effort. But failing to try guarantees failure.

Confrontation is required. Stating that NC is necessary is required. I'd even say that demanding an end to the affair is required. And all of it right up front. This will all lead o conflict over the affair, but without conflict there can be no resolution.

Some will end the affair at once merely by being confronted. This usually takes place when a more recreational type of affair is present than any kind of deep emotional attachment that feels like true love, but even in some of those cases confrontation alone can bring an end to the affair.

If Plan A is embarked upon than sometimes THAT will lead to the end of the affair. In some case Plan B is entered into with the understanding that it might lead to the demise of the affair. In any case, if the affair ends and the WS wants to return and the BS is willing to try to begin recovery, the real and hard work begins. And for THAT there is nothing that works better than MB, IME.

MyRev, in answer to your question about where a more militant approach to ending an affair might be found, I posted for a while on a Usenet forum about infidelity and that was the normal tack taken there. I will tell you though that there were few who had been there for longer than a few months and there were no real plans for recovery either marital or personal beyond drawing a line in the sand. I myself drew a line in the sand. It was crossed with glee. If that had been my only option, I wouldn't be here tonight.

And I believe that the reason Dr Haley says that he would not do Plan A if his wife Joyce had an affair is because of the rest of this stuff on MB. If you are actively trying to meet your spouse's ENs daily, have negotiating tools to help resolve conflicts and know what it takes to prevent yourself from having an affair, you can only have one by willfully committing adultery with the intent of hurting your spouse. And Dr Harley has said that Joyce has said that if he had an affair, she would kill him. I think that would be for the same reason.

Now that my wife and I know what to do to prevent having an affair and know how to meet each others ENs and understand that POJA, PORH and UA are what a good marriage demands, then any affair by either of us from this day forward will result in Plan D since once you know what it takes and still don't do what it means that you really don't want to be married at all.

The fantasy marriage is dead.

Long live the marriage...

JMO, FWIW.

Mark

That's good stuff. Mark. But, hell, don't you feel a ton of resentment having to virtually force your spouse by way of all types of etraneous pressure to remain with you? I mean, it would bother the heck out of me knowing that ,given her choice without all the consequences, she'd choose to be with the other guy. I'd feel like i was holding a gun to her head and i would not want to go through life forcing someone to be with me.

What you really don't seem to get Zelmo is that an affair is a fantasy.

If you can in ANY way and by ANY means get NC then your marriage will recover if you follow the plans.

NC is the key.

Sure you can choose to be resentful about it all but really when NC is established, the marriage inevitably improves to the point where the REASONS the affair ended are irrelevant.

I think it would only be like "holding a gun to their head" at first and then when everything is coming along, they want to be with you. You have to do what you have to do a the beginning, though.

I'd need another lobotomy, Kahuna, to get to that point. Just my limitation, I guess. Maybe I'll be Ghandi next lifetime.

You know Z, when this first started I felt that it was only avoiding the consequences that led her to stay in the marriage and not divorce me to run off with OM. He has more money, a bigger house, is retired and able to be around all the time...

But once the fog cleared and she thanked me for fighting for her and not just letting her go, a lot of that feeling began to fade. Yes, there is still resentment. Some of it has to do with what I feel is the fact that she wasted what could have been the best part of our life together to chase after OM, but I fought for her because I believed she was worth the effort and the sacrifice.

If the marriage had been as bad as she tried to make it seem during the affair, I would have walked away and been relieved, but I knew it wasn't true and so I fought for her and won.

I can say that it was Plan A that brought her back but she would say that she chose to come back. We would both be right.

I can say that if I had not done the things I did, she would have left me for OM and she could say the same because from her perspective, my Plan A showed her that I was willing to be the man she wanted.

I can point to exposure as being the key to getting her to stay married to me rather than running off with OM but she can say that it was my willingness to fight for her that tipped the scales in my favor. She would also say that it was people telling her that our marriage was not worth throwing way that made her choose to end the affair. Again, we would both be right.

The bottom line is that you cannot make another person do anything. Even holding a gun to a person's head does not guarantee compliance with your wishes. I didn't MAKE her stay with me, I made her WANT to stay with me.

I didn't manipulate her into not getting a divorce; I just told her that we could divorce any time but saving our marriage only had one shot. I didn't follow her around telling her that she was acting like a sl^t but I told her that she had to give up OM if she wanted to stay with me. Then I gave her reasons to stay with me, not by forcing her to not leave, but by showing her that staying with me was better and right.

Saving my marriage was a long shot. Throwing her out and filing for divorce would be a sure thing. I decided to try for the long shot, but I placed my money on what I thought would work rather than on a method I had seen fail so many times when used by my friends.

I was awakened one morning at around 3 am by a knock on the door. It was a friend of mine. He had done some time as a guest of the state and when he got home his wife had a job working afternoon shift while he worked days. They spent almost no time together in repairing the time lost while he was incarcerated (he only did 3 months of a six month sentence and what for really isn't relevant) and she was staying out later every night while he held down the fort at home waiting for her.

One night he went looking for her and found her. She was in his car outside a bar making out in the backseat with a guy that was playing in the band at the bar that night. When he showed up on my doorstep, he looked like he was near death. Almost everyone told him his marriage was unrecoverable and that he should tell her that she had to quit her job, stay home and not go out without him ever again. She rebelled of course and moved out six weeks later. They divorced in record time and moved on with their lives.

But two years after the divorce, he came by our house and my wife's BF was there having dinner. He brought a bottle of Jack and we drank, put n some music and danced like fools till the Jack ran out. My wife's BF and he left before midnight an went to his place where his ex-wife showed up at 6 in the morning to visit him. She went ballistic and was mad as hell that he had let this other woman spend the night.

His xW spent the next several days begging my wife and I to help her win him back because she knew she had screwed up the marriage and she wanted him back.

He's been married to someone else for 20 years and they have 3 kids, 16, 12 and 2 (whoops) and have had troubles over the years but are still together. His xW has been married three more times and is currently living with a guy she works with.

I decided to fight for my marriage and am still married. I chose to fight because I felt my marriage was worth saving and unless I did all I could to save it I would always have doubts.

Another friend and his wife divorced when she had an EA with a coworker. They shared custody of the kids and were the poster children for amicable divorce. Neither remarried until after 12 years they married each other again and have been together for 7 now even though her health is failing and will probably not make it another year. He said not long ago that he wished he had stayed with her the first time because the time they were apart he felt was wasting the best years of their lives.

Ive seen many marriages end in divorce and seen many more that remained married when it seemed there was no hope. Half of all first time marriages end in divorce. Considering that 60% of men and 40% of women admit to cheating while, and if even 1/4 of the women cheated with men that are not included in the 60% who admit infidelity, as much as 70% of all marriages are hit by adultery. When you take into account that most do not consider an EA to be an affair and yet we around here understand that an EA can be as devastating to a marriage as a PA, the fact that more don't divorce is amazing.

Now those numbers do not indicate that the ones who remained married recovered from the affair since most affairs are probably never discovered. And since 90% of the men and 75% of the women who admitted to having an affair admitted to having more than one, the fact that half of all marriage don't end in divorce becomes an amazing anomaly.

But it also points to an affair not being the definitive end of any marriage. It also shows that not everyone who has an affair is looking for a way out of the marriage at all.

BTW, only 47% of women and 35% of men said they thought that their spouses had cheated during the marriage.

According to Barna Research, among evangelical Christians, the number of both men and women are higher than the general public (63% of men and 49% of women). The researchers believe this has more to do with admission of guilt rather than lack of it in the general population at large. The divorce rate among Christians is the same as the general population at just over 50%.

I could easily make a case that it was my wife's fear of the consequences that brought her home. But the fear of the consequences isn't what keeps her there. The bottom line is that I still have my wife and OM has had several more affairs since then, some with married women and he currently lives alone because his own wife filed for legal separation and refuses to file for divorce and he's too afraid to do it himself. His grown children avoid him most of the time, he sees his grandchildren only a couple times per year and has been shot at twice in the last 18 months once by a jealous husband and once by a jealous married affair partner.

But his house is till bigger than mine, he still has more money than I do and he's still retired and I am not...

I think I got the better end of the deal.

My wife thinks she did too.

Mark

Mark, do you have kids?

I think that's a big motivator for men to take back cheating wives.

I honestly don't think I would have wanted to do so at all if I had no kids with my exww.

I saw what my parents went through with my dad cheating and I didn't want to be married with a cheater.

She would tell you she wasn't a cheater since "she had already decided the marriage was over" but no one bothered to tell me that while I was at war. And you don't tell a heartbroken husband that they will get a chance and simply ask him to sweep her "mistake" under the rug.

I really think that there are some waywards who simply got caught up in a weird situation and made an honest to God one time mistake and there are some waywards who have poor boundary issues and will always be susceptible to making that mistake.

The first kind are salvageable. The second type require far too much therapy and patience and life experience to go through before they "get it".

erichh is with a woman who is on her 3rd husband (him) and she cheated on 2 of her 3 husbands. Doesn't sound like a recipe for a good recovery.

Try this one on for size...

Do you want to feel resentment and be divorced or would you rather be resentful and married?

The resentment is the same.

Only the marriage is different.

Suppose your child wanted to go out with friends and still had homework to do because there was a big test the next morning. Now you can't force him to study but you can ground him and keep him from going out. So you ground him and he stays home. So he remains home, makes a half-a$$ed attempt at studying and goes to school with his shorts in a knot.

But imagine how you'd feel if he came home and told you that he was thankful that you kept him from going out with his friends because the group got into a car accident and all of them died in a fiery crash. Imagine that he shared that story with other friends who had a new outlook on their parents rules and suppose that it made your son buckle down and study hard and graduate at the top of his class.

You forced him to stay home and study and he showed his gratitude every day of his life.

And just so you know, it always feels like you're second choice at first. What the WS does once home determines how long you believe that.

It's a battle of wills. The WW wants to keep the affair partner. You want her to give up OM. You do everything you can to get her to bend to your will and she does. You get what you wanted, the OM is toast.

THEN you begin to fix what was wrong with the marriage and she does things that shows you that she a grateful that you did what you did to end the affair. She HATED it and you at the time, but is so thankful that you did once she sees the consequences clearly of letting her have her own way.

That is what many guys miss in Plan A. Plan A isn't about making the marriage better or fixing what is wrong with it or any of that stuff. It is only about ending the affair and bringing the WW home to stay.

Then you get to fix it. But if you don't save it, there is nothing there to fix.

It sucks, it's hard and it isn't fair, but it works sometimes for those it does work for they get a chance to do things right. If you don't save the marriage, you don't get that chance at all.

And keep in mind that even if the affair ends and recovery starts, that is not a guarantee that you will recover and be happy. A lot still end up divorced. The biggest obstacle to staying married is the affair. The biggest obstacle to recovery is the resentment of the BS.

It really only gets better if BOTH work at it.

Mark

Or do you want sloppy seconds or an unrepentant wayward or to live with the nagging suspicion of wondering if she'll do it again or what she did with OM or raising a child that isn't yours or a woman who won't acknowledge the pain she caused you or knowing that your wife betrayed you OR

Getting a clean start with a woman who is more deserving?

I'm indifferent to my exww. Resentful? Don't know if that will ever truly go away since she did turn everyone's life upside down for her own selfish intersts.

But I'd rather be with a woman that I didn't have to worry about.

Pom,

We have 2 kids. But DD is in her thirties and has a daughter of her own and DS is 23 and was nearly 21 at the time of the affair. Neither one was living at home at the time.

My wife has serious FOO issues IMO. Her mother has been married to her affair partner for over 40 years. He was FIL's Army buddy and was brought home to teach the kids piano. FIL moved on and remarried; MIL tried to run his life till the day he died.

And this was not my wife's first affair either. But we did nothing to recover from the first one since it wasn't discovered till it had been over for ten years and neither of us did anything to learn from it and do what needed to be done to make sure it didn't happen again.

This time we are doing what needs to happen.

If anther one happens, there won't be another recovery. This time I did what I needed to do and so far she is too at least for the most part. Much of that has to do with boundary issues, BTW. Not only do I Know what leads to an affair, but she does too. No more excuses for not doing things right now.

We got married when she was not quite 18 and I was just 21. Her father was moving away at the end of July, she didn't turn 18 till early October and we wanted to get married any way. So he signed for her to get married before she turned 18 and we rented an apartment where she lived alone till we got married in August.

FWIW, FIL was married to his second wife the morning of our wedding by the base chaplain and then they drove down for our wedding that afternoon. FIL was a double lifer in the Army. 20 years active and retired as a Warrant Officer then returned to the same desk to do the same job for 20 more years as a civilian.

His second wife worked for the Army as well and was transferred to Ft Knox. He retired and she was still in the reserves. After he died, it was her being called to active duty that precipitated my wife travelling to Kentucky to take care of the house and her step mother's aged father that led to the affair with step-mom's neighbor.

My father was in the Navy during the Korean war. My uncle was a lifer in the Marines and then became a "contractor" for the military for another 20 years. He showed up in Central America a week before we took out Noriega and he took a cruise on his boat into the Caribbean a couple weeks before we invaded Grenada. He suddenly had a desire to visit Qatar and was there when Iraq invaded Kuwait. He didn't retire, just changed titles.

My brother was active Navy for 8 years and my other brother was in the Army reserves for 10. His PHD was in political science and his specialty was Transnational Terrorism which was the focus of his doctoral thesis. He was assigned to an intelligence unit and never saw active duty but has done consulting for the military since he got out.

I myself almost joined the Marines when I was 19 but I wasn't fond of rice paddies.

I got a letter on November 9th that year telling me to report for my Army physical on December 12th and then got another letter on December 3rd telling me to not bother as they weren't going to process my number that year and I was off the hook. They took 200 hundred fewer that year from our county than they did the year before.

Mark

You know this is where I am not getting the connection in my case. Once I confronted my wife she never again saw OM. She had contact with him for over a month after that and was still claiming she was leaving for about 3 weeks, but if she'd run off to see him, I can't say that we would be having this conversation right now.

Part of the reason she didn't get to see him was that I made it hard to do it and part of it was that so many people were watching her by then that she had to simply run away and do it without regard to what others thought of her. At the same time I was doing everything I could to be the husband she said she wanted and after blowing up one afternoon and telling her to crap or get off the pot, she told me she was staying and wanted to work things out. Not till after the second worst night of my life as she vanished and didn't answer her phone all night. I know she wasn't with OM because she made it to work the next morning and stopped at home to shower and change with not enough time to drive that far and back. Se said later she spent the night in a motel halfway between our vacation cabin and home, which was where I spent the night. NC began the next day via email.

I was about to jump to Plan B and was making plans when I got an email from her telling me she was staying. The next few weeks alternated between sucking stale pond water through a straw and
hysterical bonding that left me exhausted all the time. Two months later I got another email thanking me for fighting for her and not letting her go. It's been up and down but progressively upward since.

I guess I just felt like I had that 57 Chevy. Some only have an old Yugo and don't want to spend the effort. I can also tell you that if she had not gotten on the recovery bandwagon and showed remorse and a willingness to do whatever it took, we would not be married today.

To be honest , Mark, I think I would have given it a try, the marriage, that is. We have 3 young daughters and I really wanted to try to keep us together.
I think it is hard for those of us that had remorseless WS's, some that never even admitted what was clearly evidenced and proven to a certainty, to relate to what it would be like to have had a WS that came clean, and felt bad for the pain he or she caused.
I have come to peace, but I have not forgiven as I have never received a request for forgiveness. Janis Abran Sprin, in her book " How Can I Forgive You' makes a distinction between acceptance, which allows one to move on when a person never apologizes and forgiveness, which she feels require active participation from the transgressor.
I suppose if my XW had acted like a decent human being who f-ed up royally and admiited it and did the work, I might have been able to get past it. By, that's just theory.

It's about what one can tolerate. Choices that we make, that is.

Plan A often works. Because it's not 100% effective, does that mean it should not be used?

Better to give up without trying?

However some people can not tolerate their WS's affair. So it goes to it's all about what one can tolerate.

Does not doing a plan A mean plan D? No They can do a plan B.

Again plain B when followed by a good plan A often works.

Plan B often works. Because it's not 100% effective, does that mean it should not be used?

Better to give up without trying?

Raise an OC?

Neither good or bad, it's what the BH can tolerate.

Do not recover or attempt to recover because there will be an anger phase, triggers for the BS?

Does the BS have to get over their WS's affair?

No. They can not tolerate the affair and it's memmories and triggers. So they go straight to plan D.

Can they try to swallow the affair and fail to do so at any time after D day? Yes.

This is why it does not matter if the WS wants to return. The BS has to attempt to do what the BS want's. Not every goal that is set is obtained.

You know, MyRev, your remark about the strengths and weaknesses of MB is bang-on. I've been kicking around here for a couple of years for reasons I don't want to get into, but I've often scratched my head at the single-mindedness of the whole "program."

Does a BS really want to be with a partner that's been railroaded into staying in a marriage? Does a BS really want to live out life with everyone knowing of the infidelity in the marriage? I have a family member who cheated on his wife (which resulted in divorce) more than 25 years ago, and the BW still tells everyone who will listen. You know what? It's old news. After all this time, he's the one I feel sorry for, not her. Geez, talk about living your life as a victim. Who's to say that the first marriage is the right marriage?

I'm going to agree that the numbers are greatly skewed about who leaves, who re-marries, and who stays together. My husband wants to be with me. Period. I want to be with him. Period. My own experience has shown me that the MB tactics themselves can be enough to ground a marriage. I would think long and hard about the motives for a WS to return.

How is "luring" them back railroading them back?

Railroaded into anything does not work long term. They eventually make a choice either for or against the marriage. Duh. The trick is to get them to make that choice when they are thinking rationally.


Well probably 70-80% of marriages have infidelity in them. Some people's pride is I daresay irrecovably wounded. Some people can and do get over it.


So what? Not all BS's play the victim for 25 years.


The bible?


I have no idea what you mean by that.


Well my wife having had a rectal cranial extraction wants to be with me too.


Well it's all a great theory until you are actually confronted by your spouse cheating. So you get the luxury of chest thumping about what you would do without ever having to put up or shut up.

I am on this site because I too think that BH get bad advice. They are encouraged to take abuse in my opinion and that is why I still hang around here.

I also had a mother that was a WW and she left. My poor dad did a plan A and then held out hope for years. Remember this was my mother I am talking about. She was not worth the pain she put him thru. She ran off and took his money so he could not even feed his family. I watched a very good man have his life destroyed and he never recovered. He was far to good for her yet he let it destroy his life.


Now I suppose that if the plan is to go to plan "A" and then to plan "B" if your wife does not stop sleeping with another guy it can work. But at what cost? If my wife knows she can be with another guy and have her fun until she gets tired of it well it will take her a lot longer to get tired of it. And if she knows I will wait until she does then I have just given her a pass to treat me this way.

ML I really like her posts. But I also know that when her husband cheated on her she threw him out. In my case also when I threw her out and went to plan FU my wife had a huge change in her. She still lost me but at least she changed into a human being again. Now ML husband changed his tune when she threw him out and in my case it did the same. My XW would have tormented me if I would have done a plan "A" and plan "B".

Now my wife seemed to think that worse case scenario she would get divorced and have a new man. She would get most of my assets and I would pay her my paycheck and then we could remain friendly. Reality set in when I became very aggressive and filed and stopped being Mr. nice guy.

I also have noticed that most of the BH's still have to live with a woman that neglects their SF need. This same woman who has no problem putting out for another guy that does not financially support her.

There must be a reason why Dr. Harley thinks a BH should Plan A for 6 months and a BW should only Plan A for 3 months. My wife when I found out was confrontational and blamed me. If I would have done a Plan A she would have been happy to have me pay for her affair. I can tell you when I booted her she stopped all contact with him and never saw him as far as I know. If I would have done a Plan A she would have just abused me.

People need to set boundaries and the number one boundary would be that if my next wife screws another dude I will divorce her. No exceptions and no excuses.



I could not agree with this more. As I stated above I learned it from watching my dad get destroyed. Deal through strength not weakness.

I have noticed that people who SETTLE or recover just for the kids always seem to want to somehow blame the PROGRAM for their situation whereas in actual fact, it was THEY who lowered the bar!!

I think that is the time frame. IMO a BS would be silly to Plan A forever. If there's no progress after 3-6 months then shouldn't they be in Plan B already? And isn't Plan B about them, not their spouses?

Zelmo, contentwife, IHadEnough,

THANK YOU ... it's good to know that some are employing some independent thought and challenging the status quo.

There are several newbie BH's on the board right now that are being advised through numerous pages of posts to employ various versions of the plans when it is obvious that few, if any, of them have the strength to work the plans properly, nor do they have WW's that are likely to ever become suitable life partners.

However, they continue to plod along hanging on to the thinest strands of hope while their WW's continue to abuse them, when most would be well advised to use their WW's fantasy visions to their advantage and negotiate a better life for themselves and their children.

The key here is RESPECT ... without it on some fundemental level ... I don't think you can have any type of true recovery and in most of these situations the WW has stripped the BH of his self-respect, which makes it very easy for the WW to lose all remaining RESPECT for her BH.

Once the BH gets to the point of diminished self-respect coupled with an unrepentent and disrespectful WW, then Plan D is the sensible choice for the BH to reclaim any semblence of a quality future for himself and his children.

Yes, some of these WW's are just monstrous. They are disordered or something. It is critical to look at them as they truly are. The infidelity was my get out of jail free card.
I've been in love before. But, love could never make me act the way some of these WW's act toward thier H's. Not sure I buy this fog thing. I just could not imagine treating someone like my WW treated my, regardless of my feelings for someone else.

I believe it says somewhere on this site that Plan A only works 15% of the time. I believe the success rate is even lower for Plan B. But it is still better than doing nothing at all.

Regarding exposure, this works best when it's done instantly and in a nuclear fashion. Runnerboy (who posted earlier in this thread) conducted the best and most instantaneous exposure I have read on this site.

I exposed yet, my WstbxH is still living with OW. Their A is nearly 3 years long now - almost 2 years since D-day. What went wrong? Well, OWH found out first but OW and WstbxH quickly put up barriers to prevent him from contacting me. He didn't try to expose at their work and was slow to expose to her family. WstbxH had time to come up with a speech to me about wanting a divorce (swore there was no A), and a plan to divide assets. He had already begun the separation process (took money from the joint account etc.) before I even knew we had a marital problem. He had also brainwashed his family. So when I eventually found out, the only place left to expose was his work - and they had already brainwashed them as well - to the extent that they allowed the 2 of them to stay at one of their places until they could get an apartment together (WstbxH left home within days of d-day). The only virgin exposure I had was my son who lived away from home anyway. Everything that happened with me, OWH and WstbxH/OW's A follows what I read in threads where exposure is slow or non-existant.

This nuclear attack (exposure) also gives a BH the upper hand with respect to custody and other issues in a divorce settlement. These things can be done in conjunction with Plan A. They are not in opposition. At this, I performed well. I immediately openned my own bank account and had my paycheck deposited into it instead of the joint. I also wrote up my own LSA strongly in my favour. Luckily, DS was grown so custody wasn't an issue. OWH, on the other hand, made critical errors. While he protected himself financially, he made the assumption that OW would be reasonable and at least fair to their DD(6 at the time). He allowed her to take DD with her. She has since all but removed OWH from his own DD's live, replacing him with WstbxH. I can see the mistakes he made and Pom's advice really does ring true - if he'd done HALF of what Pom advises, he might even have custody - or at the very least some type of regular visitation. As is, because wstbxH and OW moved to another city, he almost never sees his DD. Very, very sad.

So does MB work? Yes it does. But it has to be applied correctly, swiftly AND these other important factors can't be ignored while implementing the plans. Cut throat exposure and protecting a BH's parental rights are not LBs at all. They attack the affair, not the spouse. I wish this point could be made more clearly to new BS's who come here.

Just to add:

Exposure is very efective, because it is not 100% does it mean that it should not be used?

Why do I keep doing this?

Rhetorical question, I have an answer already...

Those with the biggest problem with Plan A can't describe it and have probably never done it.

Plan A is NOT paying for a WW to continue her affair. It is NOT placating her so that she won't run off with OM. I t is NOT rolling over and taking it while she boinks OM and you watch the kids so she doesn't have to worry about them.

Plan B is NOT letting her know that when she's had her fun that you will accept her back and everything will go back to the way it was. Plan B is NOT about reducing yourself to the level of acceptance of being a cuckold.

Plan A CAN'T be forever because it is IMPOSSIBLE to do it for very long. The 6 months for men and 3 for women is Dr Harley's recommendation for the MAXIMUM time you should attempt it because if you do it and do it RIGHT it will KILL YOU or at least make you wish you were dead.

Plan A is GIVING while NOT getting anything in return. If you can't do it, then don't bother to try.

Plan B is most likely to end in divorce. It is more likely to end in divorce than Plan A followed by Plan B and is almost as likely to end in divorce as going right for Plan D. Once you are not together you have NO chance to make love bank deposits and no chance to show that you can meet ENs or any of the other things that Plan A is supposed to be for. Plan B is the last hope for those who still hold onto it.

Another comment here that I feel I should address is the question about who says the first marriage is the right one...

If a marriage ends because of abuse, cheating by your spouse or abuse of the children or abandonment, then a second chance is valid, acceptable and a great idea.

If the second chance at love is with someone whom you met while married and began an affair with no matter what you thought of your spouse at the time then it is NOT right and even if your marriage ends because of other reasons your affair partner canNOT be "the right one" especially if he/she was married during your affair as well.

Happiness cannot trump the fact that adultery is wrong. Feelings cannot override the fact that it is wrong to break a vow and the fact that you fell in love with someone else while married is not the only condition by which to judge right and really should not even be considered as one standard at all, since falling in love is a CHOICE and NOT something that happens to you without any decision from you. You can say "I didn't mean for it to happen" all you want but the time to decide to prevent it from happening was when you made the choice to allow the conditions that let it happen. THAT is when you choose remain faithful, not when your underwear is damp.

raozone, you are right that Plan B is not about the WS but about the BS. But really, so is Plan A. Plan A is supposed to remove the obstacles that might prevent the WS from choosing to remain with the BS instead of running off with the AP. It is a way for the BS to show the WS that he/she is willing to meet the ENs that AP is meeting and at the same time give the BS leverage against the affair through the stick side of the equation including exposure. It is NOT being nice to a tramp. It is NOT doing laundry for a philandering womanizer. It IS stepping up and making sure that everything on your side of the fence is in order and YOU are not the reason the marriage is failing.

If you do Plan A, not rollover and let WS walk all over you but a real Plan A that does NOT tolerate disrespect because in Plan A you stand up for yourself without the WS being your only source of self and actually make yourself a better person.

The problem I have with the idea that you have to choose between standing up for yourself and Plan A is that Plan A is about standing up for yourself. It is about not taking the status quo from your lying cheating spouse and about making yourself the best person you can be in spite of, not because of you spouse. It makes you strong in and of yourself and removes your spouse as your source of fulfillment and life.

Not every marriage should be saved and some will never get over the pain of betrayal and for them there is Plan D and Plan FU. Those are perfectly valid PLANS. Most people are not advised to choose one of those when they get here because this is called Marriage BUILDERS and not Marriage Enders. (there may be one of those BTW and I have no affiliation with that group or any other group wishing to advertise on this site) By the fact that people come here to ask what they should do leads most of us to believe that they have decided to try to save the marriage.

Now the ones for whom Plan A beats them down, makes them feel worthless and diminishes their own ability to function in life without being a doormat: If you are not getting stronger as you do Plan A, you aren't doing Plan A.
If your confidence is failing during Plan A because you are unsure of what you are doing being the right thing to do then you are NOT doing Plan A.
If you are not doing Plan A with the GOAL of a fully recovered marriage in mind, you are NOT doing Plan A.
If you are not doing Plan A with an already determined end point in mind beyond which you will walk away knowing you did your best, you are NOT in Plan A.
If you are not doing Plan A with the idea of ending up with the marriage YOU want then you are not doing Plan A.
If you are babysitting so your WW can go boink OM and saying you are connecting with the kids for the first time in your life, you are NOT in Plan A.

You win at Plan A by being BETTER not by being easier to push around.

And that applies to those who do NOT save their marriage as well as those that do.

If you feel like you are being a doormat during Plan A, you might be doing everything right.

If people are telling you you are being a doormat you aren't doing it right.

Plan A and Plan B do NOT force anyone to come back to the marriage that doesn't want to come back to the marriage.

In order to recover you do have to be able to accept that it happened. In order to recover you do have to forgive and move forward.

You do have to have a remorseful FORMER wayward spouse who has earned the stripes of the F by their actions and not by their inaction (No longer boinking OM every Thursday, Saturday and every other Monday nights does NOT make one a FORMER WW any more than waking up sober one morning makes one a FORMER alcoholic)


You do NOT have to forget all about it.

You do NOT have to settle for what you get.

If you settle for being second best, that is YOUR choice.

I have to go to work. No time to proof-read or edit...

Mark

Great post, Mark! Especially this:


This needs to be repeated to both newbies and to those who are doing Plan A as much as possible.

This post calls for an NPN-Notable Post Nomination!

Charlotte

Well said, Mark. Unfortunately, some do not get that!

BINGO!!

I think the Harley plans work fine. But it requires that the WS had been a relatively emotionally mature person and the A reflects a regression of sorts.

I personally think this is the point that at times gets missed in the advice here. Some level of emotional maturity on the part of both spouses is a lynchpin in virtually any relationship advice. If you aren't dealing with someone with some level of emotional maturity, then nothing is going to "work."

Plan A, Plan B, Plan D, Plan U, aren't solutions, they are tests. Tests that determine the emotional maturity of your spouse.

I agree about the emotional maturity. I'd add, though, that the crisis caused by the affair can really show both spouses that they are deeper than they thought. Also, because people are not static, but capable of growth, the affair crisis can be a catalyst to develop that maturity that was lacking before.

The BW or BH who is able to Plan A is going to find deeper reserves of strength than they ever thought possible as they go through this. A WW who is able to break free of the affair and return to the marriage will be demonstrating more emotional maturity that either party would have thought them capable of.

MyRev...

I keep hearing you talk over and over about "self-respect" and being "stripped" of it by someone else...That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me because self-respect is something that comes from within...it just IS...You either do respect yourself or you do not...No one has the power to take that away from you without your consent...Your self-respect is YOURS and is up to YOU...In the same way that Mr. W had no power to make me respect myself, which I obviously did not as I chose to have an affair...I now have self-respect because of ME, and I know you won't relish hearing this, but mine comes from God...Hearing and finally truly BELIEVING that God meant what He said...That I (and everyone else) is "fearfully and wonderfully made"...

And I gotta say that I am sooooo glad that Mr. W didn't come here and get the advice to "kick her to the curb"...Because I promise you that if you had heard the descriptions of "Wayward Mrs. W" you would NOT have believed me "worth it"...I was just as bad as any of the WSs that we read about here...I was a MONSTER...Today I am not that person at all...I have changed in ways that most would likely have never believed possible, but I am more grateful than I have words to express that Mr. W had the strength and faith to do Plan A and do it right...He saved me and our family and he will forever have my deepest love, respect and awe for doing so...He is a man amongst men...He is my hero...

Mrs. W

I have never asked my H for forgiveness. He asked me why about a month after I confessed to him. I said because I don't want to force him to forgive me. He has to want to do that himself. I want to be forgiven. But what I've done is so egregious, I can't expect it to happen so if it happens, it needs to be because my H is ready to do so, not because I beg him too.

I've read this book twice and refer to it often. It has helped me tremendously as I've tried to forgive myself (I'm still just at acceptance stage) and tried to learn what I can do to help others forgive me or themself throughout this mess. I strongly recommend it to anyone struggling with hurt caused by him/herself or others. The author's name is spelled Janis Abrahms Spring.

YES! Very well said and very true!

Mrs. W

Yes, I worded my initial comments poorly. I took exception with Exposure ALWAYS works. I wrongly said exposure doesn't work. It works in some cases.

But not all cases. In many cases, it drives the lovers closer together, like martyrs with a common oppressor. (At least in their wayward minds!)

Gotcha...I can see that...

Mrs. W

But EE, even if they are pushed together in that way, in most cases, they are just two ticks without a dog!

See the thing is, on the day a BS made his or her vows, (s)he put that power into the hands of his/her spouse. How? Because (s)he believed the WS was telling the truth, and lived life under the assumption that the WS was honouring those vows. So yes, among the many wounds suffered by the BS, self-respect is right up there. Regaining it after D-day is a painful process that doesn't happen immediately, even if the WS is instantly remorseful and returns immediately as a poster-child FWS.

I suppose I just have a different sort of spouse...Nothing I could ever do would change who he is fundamentally...Sure, he and I both have learned so much since the affair, but Mr. W's self-respect was never up for grabs...His life's motto has always been "ACT, Don't REACT" and he operated by that the entire time and still does til this day...I suspect he always will...

He is an anomaly on many levels...I aspire to be more like him...He is a great inspiration...

Mrs. W

Mark,

Some of this is good and some is contradictory.

First you say you can't do plan A forever, then you say if you are getting beaten down by plan A, then you are not doing plan A. Well, frankly that appears to be a contradiction. If it didn't beat you down,sapping your strength to do plan A, then you COULD do it forever. So I tend to disagree with what appears to be contradictory.

One could be doing a PERFECT plan A, and still become exhausted, emotionally beaten up, etc.

I'll put this part up again because there is a lot in what you said:


Actually they may be doing an excellent plan A, but are depressed because the results don't follow the effort expended. As you say, they may "FEEL" like a doormat and eventually develop resentment because they are eliminating LB's attempting to meet needs (often needs the WS refuses to allow the BS to meet.)

Failure tends to weaken folks. Even scripture warns about this:

Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, But desire fulfilled is a tree of life.

The failure of plan A to bring a WW back can make the heart and mind of the BH sick. So I disagree with the notion that if you are being beaten down by plan A, you are not doing it right. If you are doing it and your spouse doesn't end the affair, I think ones heart will grow sick.

Again, I disagree. If there are no results, confidence is shaken. One begins to question if they are really meeting EN's or understand what LB's are present. One is told to eliminate LB's but if the WS or someone like Steve Harley or others can't identify the WW's EN's or the BH's LB's then their plan A is likely fruitless.

Since most WW's have already closed the door to their BH's, they respond like mine did, which was to not even answer the LB questionare. Steve Harley had me fill it out how I THOUGHT she would answer, but that's not nearly as good as if she were to provide the feedback as to what was most destructive to her love bank, and what makes the most effective deposits.

So I disagree that uncertainty means you are not doing plan A. You can be doing plan A to the best of your ability and knowledge, but still not be hitting the right things. After all, if we knew the right things to do instinctively, then there would be no need for Dr H, or Steve H, or Jennifer, etc.

Lacking specific feedback from the WW, plan A is only an educated guess.
I don't know about this one. There comes a point where resentment at the lack of fruits for one's efforts will lead to destructive LB behavior. That combined with recognizing that one cannot plan A forever, it makes sense that one has a decision point mapped out. A point where the BH looks at what is going on and decides if plan A continues and sets another decision point, or that plan B begins and he tells her he loves her, but will not compete with the OM, so she is on her own for getting ALL her needs met, contact me via XYZ only regarding the children, etc.

Here is where I think it's difficult to put your eggs in one basket. If you believe the only possible outcome is a saved marriage, a better marriage, etc, I think that leaves you ripe for some serious disappointment, and that could be some disappointment that threatens your very life.

I wanted to kill myself at times when I thought that my marriage wouldn't last. I put all the blame on myself and thought I had failed, it was all my fault, etc.

Is that plan A? No. Yet it's so easy to get into that mindset when you are working on eliminating any LB's and trying to meet EN's. I was told time and time again it does no good to look at the failures and sins of the WW, because you can only fix yourself.

True, but that can still be dangerous thinking. If it leads one to own it all, then one puts your own mental and physical health at risk.

I think the more healthy goal of plan is to eliminate your LB's try to meet EN's and be the best H you can be. If you wife wishes to return, it's largely on your terms, but she is allowed to bring concerns about how the marriage goes into the discussion.

That can happen without it turning into a blameshift, such as I wouldn't have had the affair if you would have only...

The person who says that is still wayward and it may be safer for them to stay away a bit longer.

But if they say I was looking for XYZ and it was wrong for me to look for that outside the marriage, so I want that as we move forward, I believe that's not unreasonable.

I hear many say that the WW has to come back on the BH's terms. Well, she's a person too and she likely has legitimate complaints about how the marriage was going prior to her affair. So who is going to come back to a situation where she still has little or no voice?

But those requests have to be thoughtful requests, not demands or blame-shifts.

Just my rambling. Perhaps I'm missing something, or perhaps it's just a difference in perspective. My marriage was NOT saved by MB. I did plan A, I did exposure. I don't think I ever really did plan B. I told her I loved her, would not share, and only discussed the child from then on. I didn't do the intermediary because we spoke so seldom it didn't make sense to put someone in the middle and no one really wanted to be there, so what did it matter at that point.

MyRev,

Be careful, you are starting to sound like me.


One of my big hearburns with these forums is the lack of triage. But I have posted that to the abyss before.

Quite often, mainly with BH, one does not know for several years what one really wants after adultery. Some people simply take a long time to decide. They have to work it through slowly and repeatedly.

But then what? Once you finally know you do not want to be with the adultress after all are you stuck?


PS: The honeymoon period is called hysterical sex by most psycologists.

I think the analogy of the 57 Chevy is the best example used so far.

My point in this thread was simply to explore the challenge of recovery. 3 years on in my own personal healing and I think my life is better without the exww than it was/is with her in it. I don't have to take care of a grown up child in a woman's body anymore and that is a great relief.

Our relationship was messed up on many levels. The "best" times of closeness and love in our M was when she was dealing with her medical issues and I took care of her. I felt the love was there because I took care of her and I actually made the mistaken idea that she appreciated the sacrifice I was making professionally to do this.

She would have some sort of illness or panic attack and I stuck to her side over and over again.

After a while, however, these medical issues started developing into a cry wolf problem and I became more and more callous about them. My workmates were already at that point.

I had a higher tolerance level.

So when D-Day hit 3 years ago I wanted to save things. I wanted to preserve the family out of a panic that I'd lose my kids.

3 years on I have them a pretty fair amount of time and I don't have her to take care of anymore. I can focus on my own life and focus on finding a woman who will be an equal in the relationship and not something that is codependent.

I didn't have a 57 Chevy that was worth restoring since I didn't have a case of a woman who was mentally healthy from the get go. She was and still is someone with poor boundary issues and still dealing with her yearly medical "crisis" of one sort or another.

I feel free to not have to worry about her problems, which is something that I'm sure I would have had to deal with if I was still married.

DD6 happened to mention to my mother how the new boyfriend helps lift her out of bed and helps guide her down the stairs and get around, etc, etc. This was after they got rear ended and he was just fine but she apparently had more pain to deal with.

My mom told me the story and I simply said, "You don't have to tell me more. I lived that for 4 years. I already know the story."

I started this thread because I have gotten to point where I feel my life divorced is better than what I would have had to deal with if I had stayed married.

It's my kids that have to deal with the split homes and I feel bad for them for that, but I am free of having to deal with taking care of another grown up.

So my point is that some waywards are worth putting in the effort for and some require a prompt and strong response by a BH to secure their rights as fathers and get custody of their children. It's these men that I feel compelled to help.

erichh is in such a situation. Married to a serial cheater and manipulator. First glance says she's not worth saving.

But the universal response by all BHes is to take strong action and protect their rights as fathers.

Zambo is a train wreck waiting to happen. He's sitting on the tracks with the train speeding right towards him and he's simply telling himself "this can't really be happening!"

Well it is.

So if you guys can help him, please do so.

EE, I think you may be misinterpreting some of Mark's post (which I second the motion to be placed into the notable posts thread).

I think the point is, you should move to Plan B BEFORE your strength is sapped. Many here stay in Plan A indefinitely, allowing their WS's a feast of cake eating. I also think this is counterproductive since whenever Plan B is implemented, instead of the WS looking to the OP to meet all their ENs, they just get upset with the BS for taking away the desert tray.

If you expect results to follow the efforts, you are not executing Plan A correctly. Plan A means NO EXPECTATIONS.

The purpose of Plan B is to protect the BS before their heart and mind becomes so sick they lose their love for their WS. So, if you have reached this point, you have Plan A'd too long.

Again, there should be no expectations. Plan A is not for the weak.

Plan A is only going to work by itself in 15% of cases. Mine did even less than this - he moved in with OW.

Meeting ENs and eliminating LBs is only one part of Plan A. Many of these are pretty obvious. AO's and DJ's are LBs for anyone. And you must have some clue of some EN if you have been married for any period of time - there must have been something you did once upon a time to make her smile.

This is exactly why Plan B is implemented. A BS's endpoint can be different for each individual. Some have already mentioned an OC. In my case, the LBs coming at me from WstbxH were too much - including many that had gone on for years that I had only just discovered.
It's not what the only POSSIBLE outcome is, it's what your DESIRED outcome is.

This is all there is to the carrot of Plan A. But it is just the carrot. An active wayward doesn't give a rats a$$ how great an H you can be. You have to attack the affair at the same time.

I believe this leans more towards the original topic of this thread, with a slant towards the WW. On the one hand, whether her complaints are legitimate or not, what does she have to ask for anything after what she's done. On the other hand, how good could a marriage ever be if both partners didn't have a voice?

You basically did my version of Plan B - which didn't provide conditions for return to the marriage. There are no such conditions for mine - maybe there were for yours. I don't know. But if you don't tell them, they will never know. Not that it's a bad thing - my life is working out pretty well as things turned out. My M wasn't the greatest - it was the Honda Civic described earlier. Only when it was lying upside down in the bottom of the gutter could I see the severe corrosion underneath.

Hey Pom, I do understand how you are feeling. But I would like to add to your sentiments that MB principals do more than recover marriages. They help with your personal recovery as well. I have been using these principals all along - long after I gave up on my M. And because of it, I am better now than I was while married. For the same reasons as you - though the details are different, in principal they are the same. Where I once walked on eggshells, I stride through with determination. What I once worried about, I now brush off. I wouldn't have got here without MB. Well, maybe I would but I would be here yet.

I wouldn't condemn anyone for helping a BS save even the most hopeless M. But all BS's should know all sides of the situation - including critical aspects of custody and fathers rights. You do them a great service Pom. You really do.

Mrs. W,

I really don't want this to turn into another argument over semantics, but your response doesn't make any logical sense. In effect you imply that MY self-respect has to come from within, but YOUR self-respect is a gift from God ... a rather condescending double standard to say the least.

Also, I don't think you understand BH's at all if you don't see how a WW's A wouldn't adversely affect a BH's self respect. I can assure you that Mr. W had feelings of inadequacy, which will put quite a dent in your self-respect, when he learned that you were getting your physical needs met elsewhere ... in effect, you had rejected him for a previous lover ... he didn't even get the benefit of being able to tell himself that you just got carried away in the passion of a NEW relationship.

Now I've read quite a bit of Mr. W's posts and he is definately a powerful and confident personality and likely regrouped rather quickly from the wound that was inflicted upon him, but it is fog-like of you to suggest that your actions didn't harm his self-respect in some form for some period of time.

However, Mr. W is not the type of BH that I was describing. I was describing the type of BH whose WW has been systematically emasculating the BH and then using that as an excuse to have an A with OM. That is the type of BH that seems to be coming to MB in greater numbers ... the weak minded, indecisive, fearful, whipped BH who simply can't or won't stand up to his WW.

These cases are basically hopeless for a successful R and I feel that MB is doing these BH's a disservice by pushing a BH to attempt R ("At least you'll know that you've done everything possible to save your M") rather than advise him to use his WW's fantasy state to negotiate a better custody and property settlement agreement for himself and his children.

If you will re-read pom's posts on this thread, he has done a much better job of describing this than I, as I recognize that I have a more agressive writing style that puts some people on the defensive. I also thought Enlightened Ex did a great job of bringing some much needed clarity and perspective to the discussion.

MyRev,

I would agree with much of what you just posted except that, just as in some of the new cases that you were advising, one of the guys hadnt even decided that his wife was committing adultery, and yo uwere already talking about ultimatums and walking.

I agree that if a BH isnt going to stand up and do the things needed to save his marriage, that he shouldnt be a doormat. And no one I know here is even advocating that, least of all Dr. Harley!

But, as Just Learning advised me in my weak times, there is time for throwing the bum out. And there is no reason to rush that. Not before certain things have been done and the BH is absolutely sure he wants out!

I agree with this, as long as it's not made into a rush order. As long as we more or less agree it could take the BS years to be sure in some cases.

Please forgive me MyRev...It really wasn't my intent to imply that your self-respect couldn't come from God - I believe that is a choice...*I* do believe that, it's just that I know that your beliefs don't line up with mine where God is concerned...I meant no disrespect and I apologize if that is how I came off...I do 100% believe that you were every bit as "fearfully and wonderfully made" as I am... (ETA: as we ALL are)


I think you are confusing self-esteem and self-respect...I do know that at the very beginning that Mr. W did take a very normal and obvious blow - I would say it was SHOCK and a great fear regarding our dd's future, BUT he was NOT down for very long (just as you have inferred)...That is just NOT him...

I found an interesting article that you might enjoy on the difference between self-esteem and self-respect...Here is the link~~~> Psychology Today Article

And here is the article in it's entirety:


Mrs. W

Mrs. W., that's a very interesting article. But I do guarantee Mr. W.'s self respect was also affected. The article states this:
Upon D-day, a BS discovers that they are, in fact, not who they think they are. Self-respect is out the window because a very critical part of our own self-definition - our marriage and our union as one with the WS - does not even exist. Certainly not as we had spent our entire marriage believing it did.

Anyway, it's just semantics when you get down to it.

I just don't agree regarding Mr. W's self-respect and he and I have discussed this of course - he agrees with *ME* ...Who he knew himself to be did NOT change...*HE* was still the same person that he had always been, it was *ME* that was different...His belief in God, did not change...his relationship with Him did deepen though...

Let me give you an example of the kind of guy that Mr. W is...Here is the thought process that he used during the affair: He said to himself, "Well, this is MY life experience, good or bad, it is MINE...I am going to approach it like this: I will picture myself going over a waterfall...Now, I can either squeeze my eyes shut in fear, OR I can choose to look around and experience all of this and learn from it." He chose to look and learn and of course ACT when he needed to...realizing that in the end he would be okay no matter what...He KNEW that...Operated from that position...

He is the type guy that does not believe that he is owed anything...Not an entitled bone in the man's body...and he is GRATEFUL for EVERYTHING...Even the tiniest of things...And he will also tell you that some of his attitude may be the result of growing up rather privileged (though not spoiled)...NOTHING bad before the affair had ever happened to him...He will tell you that the affair is the ONLY bad thing that has ever happened in his life...And in that same breath, he will tell you that he would have felt like a total heel to have said "WHY ME?" because of all of the blessings that had been bestowed upon him...His attitude is not something of this world, imo...

I told you, he is an anomaly and I am so very blessed to be married to him...

Mrs. W

I'm glad you H took you back Mrs. W but if he is so different from other men then maybe it isn't fair to use your recovery as a typical example of what is possible but rather an extreme exception?

As you said, he's an anomaly.

Well iam, I do think Mr. W is extremely exceptional...No doubt about it...And yes, much of our recovery has gone so well because he simply is that wonderful...BUT my learning to appreciate him (and him me) has come from all of our learning here on MB...Using this forum...Dr. Harley's books...As well as the MB Weekend Seminar...And most certainly church...I do feel we are example of an MB success story...I would hope that God might see fit to use us to help someone through us sharing our experiences...Dunno...We have certainly felt compelled to try...

Mrs. W

Btw, I certainly am not implying that Mr. W is perfect (though he is perfect for me), therefore, I do believe others could choose to follow his example...I know I am certainly trying...

Mrs. W

But I am (funny, "I am") a typical guy. I'm not special. I just refuse to allow my wife's actions 3 years ago to define my life, my ability to love and my ability to experience relationship(s). Mrs. W is the extraordinary one. SHE is, perhaps, the atypical former ww.

What I really find atypical, are betrayeds that continue forever indwelt with their experiences with infidelity unable to regain themselves. It makes me question how much "themselves" they had to begin with. Sure my confidence took a short term hit. But I had some to spare. I was a little too prideful anyway. Mrs. W is not my possession, she is who I've chosen to spend my life with. She's who He's chosen for me to spend my life with. OUR relationship, through Him, has overcome attack from a real and cunning enemy, an enemy that attacks the minds of both waywards and betrayeds alike (because you are one flesh). TOGETHER...we defeated satan...this time. He's sure to try again....but he'll find a stronger unified opponent next time.

Don't get me wrong...I have sympathy for the stuck betrayeds but, I can't for the life of me begin to understand how a betrayed spouse can fritter away YEARS upon YEARS of their precious life bemoaning this stuff.

I don't like looking back. Dday sucked. After Dday sucked. Early recovery sucked. I was fortunate the episode only lasted a few months. However, I was going to be OK no matter the outcome.

Imagine surviving infidelity and having a marriage of extraordinary care. What will that look like and how happy would YOU be? BE that spouse NOW and your future may just become your present without the wasted years in between.

Besides...bemoaners aren't very attractive to anybody so even if you have to fake it for awhile, your (and maybe his/her) feelings will follow your actions. Happiness and contentment are contagious. Remember, any one of us could die tomorrow.

Mr. Wondering

Great post MrW - I totally agree.

Our recovery was pretty much like this as well.

This thread took on a much bigger life of its own than expected.

I want everyone to think of the Bud Light commercial that was popular a few years ago:

Guys, you're my guys. And I just want to say.....


I LOVE YOU, MAN!

Mrs W. makes some great points.

If I may, I would like to add that although Mr. & Mrs. W. "ARE" special, from my limited time on these boards, their recovery from an A is what a normal recovery looks like.
I believe that they both just continue to raise the bar as opposed to lowering it again.

When I came here, I was told by ALL to accept responsibility for my choices. I took everyones advice and I'm thankful I did.
IMVHO, The same applies to BS'es.
(and I am saying this with great respect to all BS'es)

Not much time, but let me try to clear a couple of things up.

Part of doing Plan A is doing it because you think it is the right thing to do in order to save the marriage because you think THAT is the right thing to do. If I only believed in doing things the right way because I got my desired results each and every time I attempted them I would quickly have a very small list of what I consider to be right. What I think is the right thing to do is NOT determined by whether or not doing it is paying off for me personally.

Part of this for me comes from the fact that I do have a faith in God, not as some impersonal force or some grandfather who indulges his grandkids in whatever way they desire, but I see Him as someone who wants what is best for me even when what I want isn't what is best and certainly isn't what He wants for me.

So if I believe that I should fight to save my marriage, I am doing it because I believe that I should fight, not because I believe that I will succeed, though that is my hope, again, because I believe that is what would be right. I also believe that it would be right for my wife, since it is not just my opinion that it is for me, but also for her since an affair is wrong and therefore cannot be right.

The reason I think that being beaten down is not part of Plan A is that if I am doing Plan A type stuff to change my wife, I am not really doing Plan A. The goal should be to change me, not her. As I examined myself to see what I could do to make ME a better person, I knew that what I was doing was right and therefore the results were MY reward rather than what she did or did not do to respond to my changes.

As I did Plan A I got stronger, though still not able to simply let go of her because I still felt as though what we had before the affair, though flawed, was worth trying to save. My intent was to save my marriage, but my changes were so that I was better for it, not based on whether she remained my wife, but based on knowing that I was not only going to be a better man than I was, but was already a better man than OM.

The comment that you can only fix yourself is not to imply that you are at fault for the affair or that if the marriage fails you will be the one who needs to take the blame. It means just what it says, you have no control over how someone responds to the things you do and yet you do the things that will enrich YOU and make YOU better. Your HOPE is that enough reality is still breaking through the fantasy and that your WW will also see that you are a better choice than OM, but the value is in doing the right thing for YOU and not for her.

Plan A will make you feel like a doormat because you are giving while getting nothing in return. If you can understand that what you are doing is right and not confuse results with expectations and know that you will only be doing this until a certain time has past and then are willing to let go it becomes a lot easier. It's still really hard though.

It isn't lack of results that beats down the BH but the unmet expectations that we begin with. We think that if we do X, Y and Z, then she will do _____ and everything will go smoothly from there. But that almost never happens and if what we expect to happen does not we can feel as if our effort is worth nothing.

As long as we can do what we need to do because WE need to do it and NOT so that WW will do anything specific we can keep our expectations low and ANY progress seen becomes a windfall.

So you figure out her ENs (usually she isn't going to help with this, but unless you have been a totally insensitive lout the whole time you were married you should have SOME kind of idea what her ENs might be and if not you go for the ones you know are typical of women in general, Conversation, Affection and openness and Honesty.) and while doing this you expect NOTHING at all in return from her. You still state that she must end the affair, that you will not share her with OM and that you will not wait for her to decide forever.

You identify Love Busters and get rid of them from your daily existence. Now LBs are a lot easier because there are really only 6 categories and ALL of them do damage in some way shape or form. So you do away with all 6. This is maybe the hardest thing to do, even harder than meeting her ENs because you WANT to throttle her, scream at her, call her every derogatory name you can think up and get even with her for doing this to you. And you expect her to not notice any changes at all.

You know you are going along the right path when she tells you that you are doing too little too late and nothing you can do can make her stay married. This means she is seeing your changes and you are making the right ones. This is a sign of HOPE not lost cause.

When you first find out it feels like your whole world is out of control. Nothing is as it should be and everything you ever thought to be true is in doubt. Plan A makes you focus on what you DO have control over and that is YOU. By working on YOU and not her, your self worth can be based not on what she does but on merely knowing that you have done the right thing.

Now I did not end up in Plan B but was nearing the end of being able to do Plan A the way I believed it to be done when I let go with my biggest Love Buster in years. I was barely able to keep from slamming my fist into the wall and what I wanted to do was to slam it into her face. The fence sitting was frustrating that day and when she walked away and then said she was going home, I told her to pack when she got there unless she was willing to change something. Her response was that she didn’t want to change anything and I was certain that the end was near. The next day is when she sent me an email telling me she was committed to staying and working it out and wasn’t going to run away.

Then the really hard part started...

Mark

You can tell me otherwise if you wish, but to me, this was an ultimatum, which is exactly what started this whole line of posts.

I think , instinctively, I did a good enough Plan A, then. I used to think the fact that I did not go ballistic and that I let her have 3 months to get her self staight was going doormat. But, I cut oof all funding that was being diverted to the affair, I exposed liie crazy,and I never cried , begged or pled. Still did not work and she moved out to be with the OM. So, I guess I can feel good about giving it my best shot.
e need to be able to distinguish between different types of WS's. Soem, like my XW, are not capable of facing this and they run.

Yes, it was an ultimatum but it was not what I did the first day after I found out. In fact, after I examined what I said I would have probably held my tongue instead of blurting out the fist thing I thought of at that moment. I can tell you that if I had issued that ultimatum on D-day instead of well over a month later, I would be frequenting the Divorcing/Divorced forums instead of GQII.

Of that I have NO doubt because my wife has told me as much. She said that if I had acted in such a way the day I confronted her she would have simply moved to Kentucky and we'd be done. She has told me that it was seeing me work so hard at trying to save "us" that gave her pause and made her think that maybe she WAS acting selfishly. It made her examine herself.

To be honest I issued other ultimatums along the way as well. I told her the day I confronted her that I hadn't decided if I was going to try to figure out a way to keep us together or send her packing. I told her three days later that I wasn't going to share her with OM or anybody else. I expressed to her more than once that if she ever used my phone or computer to contact him she might be wearing pieces of them. I also told her that if I found any more calls on her work phone I would call her boss and tell him she was abusing the phone for personal business. (Her work account was MY account in that I was the one who sold the company the phones and was how I found the proof of the affair in her call records)

It isn't issuing ultimatums I am against. It is doing it in a way that says "or else" and having only divorce as the "or else."

If you issue the ultimatum that says "end the affair or get out of my house" and the affair ends, it worked. If it doesn't work what do you do then? If your only plan is to throw her out and she refuses to leave, what do you do THEN? And if you try to throw her out and she calls the cops and says you are abusing her, what do you do THEN?

Assumption #1, you want to save your marriage.
Assumption #2 you are willing to work to do it.

If you demand an end to the affair & it doesn't end, what is your next step? I demanded an end to it and it took over another month for it to end.

If you beat your chest and the rival doesn't bolt, are you willing to fight?

How much value do you place on your marriage, not your wife but your marriage TO your wife?

I EXPECT that a BH would tell his wife she had to stop the affair, unless of course he saw it simply as an opportunity to upgrade himself, in which case he was never really a buyer but merely a renter. If his wife is what defines him as who he is, HE has issues that need to be addressed. Whether married to a cheater or not, he still has to face the fact that HE is his own person and SHE is her own person.

So you demand the affair ends and it doesn't? Now what?

Now what is the answer a BH usually struggles with. Those who draw their sense of identity from being married are the ones who flounder the longest. Back to the emotional maturity question I think.

My ultimatum that day blew off enough fog to get her to reluctantly agree to end the affair. But what I did in the previous weeks was what made her make the decision she made. If I had thrown her stuff in the yard on D-day, she'd have been gone that night.

The question I've always wondered about is what would I have done if she had NOT agreed to end the affair after that incident? I figure I had some Plan A left, but my love for her was going fast and because she was not meeting MY ENs at all, nothing was restocking the cupboard.

I think that the longer you can Plan A the better as long as you do not let yourself begin to hate your WW. Those who can't do it a single day usually can't because they EXPECT it to be instant pudding. Or they just can't bring themselves to do anything other than argue about it and have one AO after another.

When I began reading here one of the first things I read was that Dr Harley said that men should be able to do Plan A for about six months. That was my expectation going in, that I would be doing it with no visible results for six months. If the affair was still going on then, I was determined to go into a Plan B. I did not go into Plan B because I did not have to because the affair ended before six months had passed.

If I had spent the entire six months with the same results I don't know if I'd have had enough left to try recovery when the affair was over, but I KNEW I was NOT going to let it go on for over six months right up front.

I also don't know if I would have been able to last that long if she had run off to spend the weekend with OM at some point. I might have decided to quit and call it a day. But part of what I was doing was spending as much time with her as I could manage. I left work early some days, fixed special dinners for her, took on more of the housework than normal and shared my day with her and listened while she shared details of hers. I started horseback riding with her and took her fishing with me. I scheduled things that required her presence as well as mine.

I was also fortunate that HER family supported my efforts as did her friends that I had exposed to. So did our pastor who had met Dr Harley years before and pointed me to MB in the first place, though not directly enough for my tastes…But it was HE that made me realize that I wasn’t going to get instant anything from this.

The ultimatum might have been a catalyst, but even in the presence of a catalyst a reaction can't happen without the raw materials to work with.

Plan A provides those raw materials...

Mark


I wish I had the time to spend here while I'm at work...

Well thank goodness for that!!

Man you could talk the horns off a billygoat.

How about we put you into a 12 step program to help you reduce your posts to 3 paragraphs or less

</removes tongue from cheek>

OK

Was i the only one that seen that you had replied and was gettign ready for a nice long read?

ITA!!

Mark, that was truly inspirational! I laughed, I cried...then I did this~~~>

You know we luvs ya Mark!

Mrs. W

Mark, the only thing I really wonder about is :if your wife is truly a person with a conscience, a persojn of quality with empathy,compassion and morals etc, would she not have eventually come out of this on her own, even had you issued ultimatums early on?
Can you say for certain that had you gone the harsher route, your marriage would have ended? Wouldn't that mean your wife lacks the ability to act morally and honestly of her own accord.
You are relying on your wife's speculation as to what she would have done had you been harsher. But, really, she does not know how she would have reacted. She is speculating on what her response would have been and, very often, folks have no real idea how they would react to things. Think of all the BS's trying to reconcile who had previously claimed they would never consider it.

Zelmo - I know for sure I would have been divorced.

Then within 2 years, the affair would have ended and I would not have been interested in reconcilliation.

Doing it without ultimatums and doing Plan A got me my wife back QUICKLY and less painfully.

What do you think is the best route?

Oh yeah Mark - Nice work buddy.

I'd defer to Harely and the Plans. Apparently, he feels they work and has the stats to back that. But, I think you have to admit that even if the Plans increase one's odds, they don't work the majority of the time. ANd, depending on the types of people in these situations, a diffferent approach may work better in an individual case.
As I mentioned, I did a pretty decent Plan A, although I did not realize what it was I was doing. It did not work. Perahps if I'd gone ballistic, that might have. Who knows.
My therapist tells me that in dealing with someone like my wife, setting boundaries would have merely hastend the end of the marriage. That would have been a good thing, in retrospect as I truly feel she is personality disordered.

Nothing ALWAYS works.

But you still back the fastest horse.

Agreed. But, I think what bother some folks is the impression is sometimes given that using the plans work in the vast majority of cases.
Melody and I got into this discussion, once, Kahuna , and I think you may have been in on it. I saw info on this site where the likeliehood of Plan A working is 15%. So, folks go to Plan B. But, in an April 08 article, Harley says that being in Plan B makes it more likely that divorce will occur(more likely than in Plan A, apparently). So, best case scenario for Plan B working to avoid divorce is 14.9999...%. Total is less than a 30% reconciliation rate which corresponds to stats from a couple other sites I looked at. Those sites are not talking about MB adhering couples. So, if those stats are right, do the plans really increase success? Has anyone independently studied this, someone with no financial interest in the MB product? Or , are we relying strictly on results reported by Dr Harley(seems like a nice guy, don't get me wrong)?

Dr Harley also says most marriages don't recover.

I think the percentages are right or about right for ending affairs. Some affairs die a natural death.

The real beauty of the MB Plans is that if the affair does end, they give you the best chance of recovery - in fact Dr Harley says people who follow his plans ALWAYS recover.

Z,

Too many "ifs" for me there...

When I confronted her she denied. I had enough proof to hang the governor of Illinois. All circumstantial but a LOT of it.

Two days later she called me right after getting off the phone with OM and told me she wanted a divorce.

The next night she spent with me at our vacation property where I had confronted her and when she left for work in the morning called OM and talked to him the whole hour plus trip to work, then called me an hour later and told me I should just file and get it over with because she wasn't going to give up OM.

That night she called me to tell me she had enjoyed spending the night before with me and then added that she still wasn't going to work on the marriage because she wanted OM in her life and knew that I would not allow it.

The following day she refused to answer any of my calls while I was meeting with our pastor. The next day I went to church and she said she'd be there before church started. Friends were visiting that were missionaries in Romania that day and my wife had spent two weeks in Romania with them a couple years before. My wife did not show up at church and would not answer the phone calls from me, her twin, her older sister, our pastor's wife, our daughter nor our son. She came home at 6:30 that night and sat in silence in the living room while I fixed dinner and the rest of us ate. When our granddaughter tried to climb into her lap my wife pushed her away and went to bed.

The next morning she told me she was thinking about quitting her job and moving to Kentucky at the end of the week. We spent that next Saturday traveling to our niece's wedding and back home.

If I had challenged her during that first couple of weeks like I did a few weeks later I have no doubt she would have been in OM's bedroom by morning.

Would the affair have ended?

I have no doubt that it would. OM is a loser, a serial cheater and a drunk. Oh, and still married though his wife moved out because of the above description.

Would she have wanted to come home and recover the marriage when it was over? I'm not sure but I would bet money on it.

Would we have gotten divorced instead of recovering our marriage?

Now I can't say "never" because that's too easy to prove not viable as an answer. But I can tell you that if she had moved to OM's house and left me with the mess of a house we had with DS and DD and DGD all living there and trashing the place all the time and letting me deal with the credit card debt that was the result of her spending, I would more than likely not wanted her back by then. I would not have come here, would not know the statistics on affairs, would not have spent time looking at myself and just blamed her for every problem in my life and certainly wouldn't have learned how to recover a marriage damaged by infidelity and would have no clue how to go about accomplishing it.

Am I 100% certain we would be divorced? Not really. I think it's more like 99 and 44 100ths % sure.

You see, if you play the "my way or the highway" card before you know what other cards are still in the deck, you might have to settle for the highway instead of the right way.

A lot comes up around here about boundaries. Some guy says "My wife wants to go to Aruba this weekend with OM." And someone says, "well, I'd make that a boundary..." DUH...

OK. And if the boundary is crossed what do you do? The ultimate boundary enforcement is death. But that will not save my marriage nor make me mister popular around the kid's school.

Now at some point I might even feel like that is my last resort, but it isn't where I start negotiations. But my first choice might be to cancel her credit cards and run her passport through the shredder.

And when she storms out and drives away because I ruined her weekend of fun, she comes home at three in the morning to locks her key no longer fits.

The problem with boundaries is that they define US and not other people. I can decide what I will do but not what other people will do. I can try to decide for them, but I really have no control over them at all.

But of course my reason for the boundary is to get the other person to act the way I want.

If my FIRST boundary enforcement is execution by firing squad I stand little chance of getting what I wanted but will be more likely to end up with the other person dead at my feet.

But if I have progressive enforcements I stand a chance of making things uncomfortable enough for them that they will eventually modify the behavior into what I want from them.

So in order to get my way, I need to be able to define what it is I want, explain the consequences and escalate the consequences until I either get what I want or hit the end of my tolerance and use my final enforcement.

For marriage, the ultimate enforcement of personal boundaries is divorce. Since that was what my wife said she wanted how would that be a way to make her want to end the affair and commit to recovery?

Are you all done reading now so I can go to bed pretty soon?

Mark


OK I just had to add this and then I'm done...For now anyway...

Z, one of the things you are missing in all of this is that anyone who knew my wife was disbelieving that she could even do such a thing. She was the LAST person anyone would think would do the stuff she did.

But that is why around here we say that the WS has been abducted by aliens. Nothing the WS is in character or rational. It isn't rational to knowingly hurt a person you professed to love as badly as an affair does it. Anything that follows from that can't possibly make any sense.

When my wife was actively in her affair she wasn't really my wife at all. There was NOTHING about her that was like my wife before or since. She was a wayward wife then and waywards are not the same folks we married. Nor are they the same folks who enter into recovery. The think with there glands instead of their brains. They can't see how foolish they are because it's too dark inside their anus and that is where their heads are up to the armpits.

That's NOT a boundary - that's manipulation.


Manipulation


Manipulation

Assumption #3, WS wants to save the marriage.

Without #3 I wouldn't give a crap about #1 or #2.

bigk,

I don't think that it's manipulation to change the locks for your home, or ruin a weekend for OM.

Those are consequences.

I applaud men who take such steps and make life difficult for a WW.

The WW brought these discomforts on herself.

I'm not an advocate for filing for divorce when someone doesn't want it. I do advocate that a BH take aggressive steps to protect his rights as a father. These hardcore steps are usually enough to lift the fog of a wayward wife on their own because the vast majority of women believe that the kids will automatically be with them.

My exww told me several times that she was going to talk to people to find out what the typical visitation arrangement was and that that was she was going to give me. She was the self appointed authority.

She was that way for a little bit because I allowed her to be. The fact is that she never was, but she acted like she was because she was a self entitled woman who figured that she would have the kids because she was a woman. I had the mistaken assumptions that I would lose because I am a man.

We were both wrong.

So a BH has to fight what he has heard about custody and understand that the law truly is neutral in theory and that it will force it to be fair if the BH behaves in a smart way.

It is strong, aggressive, and assertive tactics in the legal system that work in the favor of the man. This doesn't mean you litigate till the cows come home. The objective is to protect your rights as a father and not buy a new Mercedes for the lawyers.

But Zambo, for example, just had a restraining order slapped on him for very flimsy reasons. Many men out there wouldn't contest it. Zambo has us in his corner to tell him otherwise.

What I'm realizing is that women more often than not win custody because men let them win by making very idiotic mistakes that are perfectly preventable.

So part of the WW fantasy is that life will go on with her and her children like normal and the BH will see the kids when she says so and he will like it, by God.

That's just not the truth.

So my aggressive approach with legal action is, in my opinion, part of Plan A for a man. It's part of the stick of Plan A.

Because the lawyer could be the bad guy and the BH can stick to his guns that none of this is necessary or wanted and that all a WW has to do to end it is commit to her marriage and have NC.

That's not manipulation. That's covering your bases.

She wants to keep her OM, by all means. Knock yourself out. But the kids and the BH will stay together and the BH isn't going to let her have her fantasy about pushing him out and replacing him with OM.

Just not going to happen.

Zelmo, you are still confusing ENDING THE AFFAIR with ending the marriage. So lets unpack this again because your statistics are not correct which make your conclusion wrong.

15% of AFFAIRS end in Plan A although 95% of affairs do end in under 2 years. So what does that tell you? It should tell you that 15% end in Plan A and that the other 80% end in Plan B. That tells us that it takes LONGER THAN 3 weeks to 6 months [the time of Plan A] to end the affair.

You are not taking into account the other EIGHTY PERCENT that end in Plan B. You are assuming that NONE end after plan A and that is where you going off the tracks.

NOW, Dr. Harley claims two different things:

1. that most marriages do not recover from adultery

2. most marriages do not end in divorce from adultery

What is he saying? He is saying that while most marriages stay together after adultery, they do not recover from the damage and remain crippled. He does not say that most marriages END from adultery, he says that most marriages do not recover. Big difference!

His conclusion dovetails perfectly with statistics on this subject.

Divorce Statistics from divorcepeers.com:


Percentage of couple who preserve their marriage after an affair

&#9642; 64%



Of those couples who remain married despite an affair, what percentage later describe the marriage as unhappy or empty?

&#9642; 78%


Footnote 3: "Looking for Love? Uh-Uh," O: The Oprah Magazine, October 2004, Alexa Joy Sherman, pages 266-268 — source: "Sex by the Numbers," citing "American Sexual Behavior: Trends, Socio-Demographic Differences and Risk Behavior" (National Opinion Research Center); The Social Organization of Sexuality; Journal of Sex Research (February 2001); American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy; Adult Video News; NIH; IMS Health; AARP / Modern Maturity Sexuality Study. here

Can you please show us your citation for 80% of affairs ending in Plan B?

It's called math, iam. 95% end within two years. 15% end during Plan A. 95-15=80...

you are a mathematical genius!

It would be interesting to see the numbers broken down by gender of the wayward.

I suspect the survival of the marriage is far lower when it's the wife who has the affair. As we've seen and Dr Harley as well as Steve Harley say, it's less likely the woman will return because her heart is closed to her husband.

I was listening to Focus on the Family this morning returning from my men's Bible study group and I believe it was Gary Smalley and his wife on the program. They were talking about how disconnected they became, and how she began building an emotional wall to keep him out of her life.

He asked the question if he could come home, as he wasn't really a part of the family with everything he was doing, and she slowly let him back into her heart, after about two years.

However, I think her response is rare. Most hang on to those resentments, never trusting again. Some of those wives become waywards, jumping to the first man to meet those needs. Others just walk away, often never really telling their husbands what the problem is.

She said she didn't tell him about it, she just built her wall. He had no clue and it was only a picture his daughter drew of the family and he wasn't in it that got his attention.

This is the side of Why Women Leave that is not addressed. Dr H does a great job of saying all the things the man has done wrong, and I don't disagree.

Where I think he falls short is that he doesn't address the other half of the problem, where the woman doesn't effectively communicate what is going on in her heart in a way that is without LB's.

That silence of Mrs Smalley is just as destructive to the marriage as him spending most if not all of this time, talent and treasure on things like career, education, etc.

I believe most of the time when the wife walks away, or has an affair, she has already emotionally divorced her husband, and is just making that a physical reality with those actions.

So I suspect if you look at the recovery stats when it's the wife who cheated, the numbers of marriages that end is higher than the number that do not end in divorce.

Those are good questions, EE, and I have wondered the same things. There are major differences in the emotional dynamics of men versus women. For example, Dr. H notes that women love ONE MAN at a time, while men are able to love TWO.

While statistics are fun to discuss, I worry about discouraging people and I will tell you why. I am a recovering alcoholic with 23 years of sobriety. Only 10% of alcoholics ever recover. Only 10% die sober. Some might look at that and not even try even though there is hope.

On the other hand, the odds of recovering a marriage after an affair is much, much higher and there most certainly IS HOPE. We see many recovered marriages right here on this forum.

I hope folks focus on that and realize there is hope. Sure, some cases are hopeless and in those, the definition of success is divorce. But many are hopeful.

Yes, but Mark, some of the remaining 80% that end are not situations where Plan B is being used. For example in my situation, after about 5 months of trying Plan A(well, I did not know about plan A, but I was sort of doing one), my XW moved out to be with the OM and insisted I file for divorce or she would. So, I filed and she was gone.
18 months or so later, when I was completely out of the picture , just dealing with her about the kids and seeing the kids, the affair dissolved. I suppose the situation was like a Plan B, in that I was having no contact and they got a chance to see what one another was really like, in the light of day.
It's funny. At that point, when her fantasy was falling apart, and I was still hanging out with her folks and brothers socially, she called me to complain about the fact that I had told the kids about the affair(the guy was living with them and they had been told that he came on the scene just recently, after the divorce). She also complained that I had "trashed " her to all the folks I had told about her affair. I had not, just told them the truth.
In any case, after berating me for all the exposure, she , out of the blue, said "maybe I should have gone to the counseling you were suggesting". This was what I had asked her to do, get IC and go to MC for us, during the 5 months between D-day and her moving out.
But, it was too late. We were divorced and I had moved on.
OSmetimes, there is nothing one can do tostop this runaway train, the affair. I exposed to everyone, except the kids, initially. I paid all our household bills and took good care of the kids. I tried to get us into counseling. Nothing worked. I was calm the entire time.

Nice going on the recovery, Melody. My dad was an alcoholic. He stopped drinking later in life and was a different person.
I think folks should try to recover their marriages if possible. But, with some WS's, you just get nowhere.

Zelmo, but we are talking about those that ARE in Plan B. Of those that ARE in Plan B, 80% of the affairs end at that stage. If 95% end in under 2 years, 15% end in Plan A, then that means that 80% end in plan B.

Plan B or not, 95% end in under 2 years. 80% of affairs end in Plan B, 15% end in Plan A.


So this falls right into the "95% of affairs die in under 2 years."

Thanks Zelmo. I agree there are many hopeless situations. Sometimes the definition of success IS divorce.

This is where I wish there were statistics. There are different types of WS's (and BS's for that matter). I realize a newly betrayed BS is likely not thinking clearly, but it would be nice to be able to recommend one course of action over another with some data to back it up.

I am not following you. How would the plan of action differ?

No, I think it's important to be up front about the probability of success. Reading here, one gets the impression that MB works, period.

We know that while most marriages that experience infidelity don't end, most of those that survive are not really good based on the numbers in those studies.

Aggressive custody-battle vs. typical Plan A/B. Plan A vs. Plan FU. Even how long of a Plan A.

Aphelion is spot on ... I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but TRIAGE is what is needed here to effectively address each BS's individual situation and circumstances.

As this discussion has evolved, it is quite obvious that men and women (both betrayed and wayward) react differently to an A. Within those differences, we see varying degrees of strengths and weaknesses within each sub-group, but MB (as is promoted on these forums) is essentially a one-size-fits-all approach, and any deviation from that model is usually shouted down by a dozen or so vets ***edit***

I also find it quite interesting that when a particular BS is counselling directly with the Harleys and also participating on the infidelity forums that the respective advice given from each source seldom (if ever) matches. It also seems that the Harley's are much more inclined to modify the MB plans to individual circumstances than the board vets, and that is to be expected ... they ARE the professionals, but that doesn't mean that they are infallible or that it doesn't present us with an opportunity to evaluate our own preconceived notions.

My frustrations (and I assume others as well) is that the board vets are reluctant to even consider advise that they may feel is "outside of the box", which usually leads to someone getting aggravated, followed by a defensive reply, followed then by the inevitable Catch 22 thread meltdown.

This site has a lot of good questionaires for us to learn more about ourselves, our spouses and our relationships. Therefore, it would seem to make logical sense to incorporate a "BS Personality Questionare" that would be completed, copied/pasted and posted by a newbie BS so that they can gain insight into their own individual situations & circumstances and other posters could review it to use in advising that particular BS by seeking out similarities and differences to their own or other forum stories of success or failure.

I've learned that its useless to simply ***edit*** about something unless you can offer a solution to improve the situation.

Thoughts???

I agree with Revelation on this. But, I ma not sure "personality" is the right way to describe what needs assessing in the BS. This is just semantics, but I think "values" or "philosophy" or something similar is what needs to be assessed. You'll find all tyoes of different personalities, but the main difference in BS's seems to be in the tolerances they have for getting past this cheating thing.Guy could be mellow as heck, but this could still be a dealbreaker for him. Same with a hotheaded guy that may , for whatever reason, be able to let this slide.
It seems to me that, in addition to the BS's slant on this reconciliation thing, the WS's character etc is critical in assessing the likelihood of reconciling.
I've never completely understood this fog thing and being seperate from somone's true character. I've been in love before and I've broken up with folks when it was not working out. I could not ever imagine myself treating another human being as I see some WS's doing under any circumstances. I could see falling out of love with my spouse. I could see falling in love with someone else. But, I could not see myself driving someone nuts with gaslighting, getting incredibly mean and hostile, berating and blaming my spouse or girlfriend like isee Ws's do.
I know, there is the analogy to drug addiction. But, really, drug addiction seems different. There are actual chemical changes in the brain that are way more pronounced than those love produces.
Seems if you have a really cruel WS, it may be time to really think about both the likeliehood of the Plans working, as well as the desirability of getting back together.

I like the idea of a questionairre and I agree it should encorporate more than simply personality. It should also address aspects of the WS, if it's a first A or how many, how long its been going on, has the WS stated they want to try to recover or has the WS moved out, and how much time since d-day before the BS found MB. I believe if you could gather data from enough affairs, you could tweek out the things that improve and/or worsen the chances of recovery. But even running a survey on this site would be biased - many BS's don't stick around after their M either recovered or ended.

Not withstanding this brilliant reply ...

Just give me the citation.

For someone to state that 80% of affairs end during Plan B is disingenuious.

If it's true they can point out where they saw the stat.

It would appear to me that since Plan B has an 80% effective rate in ending affairs and Plan A has a 15% chance that B stands for 'Better'.

After all, everyone wants the 'fastest horse'.

I don't think Plan B works very well without an effective Plan A beforehand, though...

The point of Plan A and B together is to improve the chance of marital recovery. Plan A leaves the best impression of the BS before they go dark in Plan B. Plan B protects whatever love the BS has remaining for the WS while the affair dies a natural death. If one were to immediately jump to Plan B upon D-day, that would be more of a Plan D than anything. And 95% of those affairs would still end within 2 years, statistically speaking. But it's less likely the WS would return to the M in that case.

I think that plan A is also important to show the WS that the affair can be forgiven. If the WS thinks that they are doomed to a life of having the affair held over their head, there is less motivation for coming back to the marriage.

JMO

I also think that plan B is more suited for keeping the BS from growing to hate the WS so that BS will be willing to atempt recovery once the affair ends. (Which it will 95% of time).

So in my opinion:
Plan A is to show the WS that recovery is possible AND is worth it.

Plan B is to keep BS willing for recovery once affair ends.

But this probably has little to do with original posters question.

I didn't wish to really ask much other than to have a discussion about the cost/benefit analysis of saving a marriage where a wife has cheated. I can only discuss this issue from a man's perspective. I also think that WHs are very different that WWes. I think the intensity of the emotions for the WW, in general, is worse than for a WH.

I also wanted to discuss the idea that hopelessness is a feeling which keeps a BH from doing the tough things that need to be done when it comes to understanding that there are perfectly viable alternatives to appeasement of a WW.

I believe fear of losing children has the ironic effect of causing BHes to be afraid of doing things and entering a legal system which most men believe is very biased in favor of women.

My goal, indeed my mission, of staying on these boards is to inform the BHes that not only is the court system theoretically neutral, it really works to a BH's advantage to take aggressive action to protect his rights as a father.

What is ironic is that the very fear of taking action by a BH is often what leads to the very outcome he wishes to avoid while acting hardcore to protect his rights as a father (which go hand in hand with children's rights, from my perspective) has the effect of often lifting a WW from a fog because WWes often have a delusion that they will keep the children and introduce a substitute dad for the kids and that life will carry on for them as normal with the only difference being that BH is out of her life.

A court order is a big slap of reality.

It worked on MM's wife. I think it would work on most WWes as long as the man is a capable father who takes aggressive action.

I'm one of the men who was a victim of the fallacy of assuming that courts automatically favored women.

They don't. They favor stability and they favor proactive parents who truly have their kid's interests at heart.

I also look at my life now and think about where it is and the freedom I have and the opportunities I have which would not have been there if I was fighting a grueling recovery process.

I don't think that recovery would have gone well in my case. The love for my WW would have slowly died and her cheating would have eaten at me over time so that every new "illness" she faced would have been thrown on top of a man who was already a bit jaded with her pleas for attention.

I feel bad for my kids because they deserve better than this, but for recovery in my case the exww would have had to essentially become a different woman than who she is.

Unless she changes, I forsee her going from caretaker partners to caretaker partners. No man is perfect and that is a very high demand to live up to.

Which is exactly why every BH that comes here should be advised to use their WW's "fog" to get the best possible custody arrangement.

Plan A can start once you've lawyered up.

Because as we've been told here, Plan A has a 85% failure rate and a proper Plan B requires someone to move.

What's the MB percentage for affairs ending? Or ending within 2 years, even?

WS-Gray's affair will be hitting the 2-year mark this year. I think they will get married once OWH's divorce is final. (Including the month-long waiting period.)

Charlotte

IMHO, its hope that keeps them from doing the tough things. They hope that if they continue to be "generous" and accomodating, their WW will eventually reciprocate.

I don't think I'd plan A or plan B again. If I end up divorced again from an unfaithful or walk-away wife, I doubt I'd try again. I'd take that as a sign I'm not fit for marriage and just do my own thing.

Let me try to break this down...

If you do NOTHING to break up an affair, it is 95% likely to end within two years. Whether anything is done in the way of Plan A, B, C, D or FU, 95% of ALL affairs are over within two years.

The reason they end is not a single reason and no single reason can be said to be at work in all affairs coming to an end.

But a set of things that are common to all affairs are also common to that 95%. These same things that are common to all affairs tend to make them less stable than other romantic relationships. They include but are not limited to, dishonesty, selfishness, lack of empathy, guilt, poor grasp of the real versus fanciful delusions and a host of other things that tend to make a relationship unstable.

So, of all affairs, 95% will end within the first two years no matter what is done by the BS.

15% of affairs end while a BS is actively engaged in Plan A. Some of these might actually have ended during this same time frame with no input from the BS but Plan A is not just seeking to end the affair but also to make the BS stronger, more confident, less inclined to be emotionally unstable and reactive and a bunch of other ancillary benefits. Plan A is effectively creating in the BS someone who can cope with the rigors of recovery. So while some of these affairs will end no matter what the BS does, the ones who were able to get a handle on their own stuff and actively pursue a Plan A are more likely to be able to work at actual recovery without as much of a learning curve.

Part of this I think has to do with the things that are the mainstays of Plan A for any BS. These things are learning to identify and meet ENs, identifying and learning to take control over Love Busters and understanding that missed expectations cause much of the uncertainty in their life. Now these things are all needed during recovery. But more importantly they are all required for a marriage to remain vibrant, growing and successful into the future. The ones who learn these things in Plan A are WAY ahead of the curve as opposed to most of the general population.

Now we know that 95% of affairs end within two years and only 15% have ended during the time period set aside for Plan A. Simple arithmetic tells us that this number that ends within two years and did not end during the Plan A time frame is in fact 80% of the total of all affairs. Since this is the time frame for which Plan B is described, to wait beyond Plan A to see if the affair will be part of the 95% at all it can be said that those 80% end during Plan B, though in reality that does not mean that Plan B was the reason that they ended since they would have ended anyway if they were part of the 95% that crash within the first two years.

Now a lot of people take exception with the 95% number and point to how many people they know who have relationships that began as a affair and the happy couple is still together some number of years beyond the two during which we have said 95% of all affairs end.

But here's the thing that is being lost. Look around a room full of people in any setting and if there are 100 married couples as many as 70 -75 of those couples one, the other or both spouses have actively cheated on their spouse. When you consider that the number for ALL affairs is so huge to think that everyone knows at least one couple whose affair lasted longer than that is not much of a stretch. If everyone on these forums knows just 1 that is hardly a dent in the remaining 5% of all affairs so there has to be a lot more that none of us know about.

Plan B is what Dr Harley recommends for folks who want to save their marriage and try to reconcile after they have done Plan A without the results they sought BECAUSE of these numbers, not to facilitate them. Since 95% of all affairs will be over within two years NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, Plan B is a way to wait that long to see if your WS falls into the last 5% and Dr Harley doesn't think ANYONE should have to put their life on hold for longer than that, since the longer an affair goes on beyond 2 years the more likely it is to survive 5, ten, 50 or forever.

In other words, if you divorce before two years is up you have given up a 95% probability that the affair will end before you divorce. If our goal is to not divorce then waiting at least two years should be an easy leap with no citation needed.

The interesting thing about data of any kind that I find fascinating is that those who have already made up their minds as to the conclusion are the ones who just can't buy into the data. I can quote a survey of 500 people and give a percentage that say that they are not happy with their marriage and hardly anybody bats an eye. But if I say that a certain percentage are not happy because they were Christians and their spouses were not, someone will question the validity of the percentage, someone else will want to know how the survey was conducted and 2 more will question the sample. Three will ignore the conclusion because they have anecdotal evidence of things other than differing religions being cause of unhappiness in marriage in at least one case and at least one more will never accept it because he can't see the fuss because he is universalist and can't imagine why anyone would be unhappy over any religion. And a whole bunch of folks will offer various alternate conclusions to be drawn from the same set of data.

Break time is over, back on my head...

Mark

ok, lets use some math AND logic, IAM. That will be our "citation." Here we go:

If 95% of affairs end within 2 years but only 15% of affairs end in Plan A, how much is 95 minus 15?

Many times it's not the BS who chooses divorce, but the WS, and that lets them drive the timeline.

In states where you don't have a two year waiting period, it might be worthwhile for the BS who wants to save his marriage to file first, so he can drive the pace at which things happen.

One can file, and then sit on it, or work extremely slow waiting for the affair to die out.

However, if the WS files, they can request response by a fixed time and the BS has to comply, get a continuance or be in contempt of court with any consequences that has.

So in some jurisdictions, it may be beneficial to file, but not aggressively pursue the divorce, or at least not initially.

I say this for those cases where the WS has moved out. If the WS is still in the marital home, I wouldn't advise this.

In my case, it was my WW (now XW) who filed, so she drove the timeline of the divorce. There was little I could do to stop it.

FWIW, I believe my ex-wife's affair lasted about four years. I think it was done in the fall of 2007. That's when my daughter stopped talking about the original OM and started talking about the others guys her mom was seeing.

Just a data point.

Again, why the juvenile response?

Hey now, if you really need a "citation" for this, I'm pretty sure dd9 brought home her 3rd grade math book today! Let me know!

Mrs. W

The bolded part is what I was referring to.

I think it is EXTREMELY misleading to imply to newly BS's here that 95% of affairs end due to MB methods which is EXACTLY what was implied.

Great, someone else who will spout statistics and give no source. Oh, and add juvenile comments.

Mark,

I'm not going to argue this further, because quite frankly, neither of us have accurate statistics to back up our theories, but either I live in an Appalachain Anomaly Region or the 95% of A's ending within 2 years is not accurate.

Admittedly its only anecdoatal evidence, but FogFree and I live in a small rural area and we can fill up both set of hands counting affair marriages that have lasted for a number of years that we know.

Also, there is usually a companion statistic to the 95% of affairs end in less than 2 years that states something like 70% +/- of those remaining 5% that ultimately marry will divorce ... again those same people I'm talking about in the above paragraph are almost ALL still married to their affair partners.

For me, those stats just don't add up based on my own personal knowledge and experience.

Now I can think of some reasons peculiar to this region that may account for some of this ... (i.e. historically a higher percentage from this area get pregnant and M'd in their teens, which doesn't often lead to monogamy or long M's) ...

... but if I want to be cynical (which comes naturally), I could also conclude that a for-profit, pro-marriage business would have a vested interest in cherry picking and citing statistics that support their theories and increase their revenues.

Granted, all of this is speculation, but IMHO, so are the original statistics in question. Unfortunately, we all should be skeptical of statistics that are based on surveys of waywards, who have a built in tendency to lie plus an incentive to do so.

MrsW, does your DD's 3rd grade math book have a "citation" for 95 minus 15? We need evidence, I tell ya!

Please show me where anyone has ever said that MB methods end 95% of affairs.

But, you can't refute a statistic with an ANECDOTE. That makes no sense. And until I see something that legitimately refutes the 95% figure, Dr Harley's oft spoken statistic of 95% stands.

That's funny, the one who won't show me a citation for her statement asking me for one!

Well here it is anyway....


Spin away.

In other words, you can't back up your claim as we both knew. No one has ever said that "MB methods end 95% of affairs."

iams, you don't need a "citation" to be able to subtract 15 from 95. You need a calculator and some common sense. and perhaps a sharp 2nd grader.

Nice job of cherry picking the part you can attack and ignoring the rest.

Considering your exchange with iam ... it appears that is your MO, which isn't working for you either.

And as is usual with you, MyRev, you can't defend your points. I will post it again for you:

"But, you can't refute a statistic with an ANECDOTE. That makes no sense. And until I see something that legitimately refutes the 95% figure, Dr Harley's oft spoken statistic of 95% stands"

Skipping over the citations/stats issue (just an FYI; the CDC keeps stats on infidelity, remarriage, etc. - they have the best meta-analysis I know of - I used to teach graduate stat - might want to go take a look) - want to pick up on Enlightened's comments about when it might be in the BS's best interest to file, even if they don't want to.

Mine is such a case. In the state where I live, the person who files for divorce first - initiates it - absolutely, positively controls the process. That party can speed it up, slow it down, as Enlightened suggested. They make the first demands in negotiations and can strategize pretty much to extend things (or shorten them).

That's exactly why I filed. My WH was threatening to file if I didn't. He'd contacted a lawyer. His OW was already out of her marriage "to be with him" and was pushing him. I was between a rock and a hard place for business reasons I won't belabor here (go find the "Wavering" thread if you're interested in how that whole mess is playing out) and so when I believed he was going to file, I went ahead purely for strategic reasons. It would have been just plain DUMB for me not to.

Now, I didn't want to file. Before I filed, as I was filing, and after I filed I let WH know (in discussion and in email) that for me, the filing was a legal technicality done to protect assets ONLY. That I wanted to work on the marriage. That I was willing to address LBs of mine and fix them. That I wanted his happiness. Yada yada (I was in Plan A).

I've been in Plan B for 2 1/2 months now and the damage to the business just rolls on and on - and I'm getting so ticked off about his negligence and maliciousness that I just fired off an email to another attorney in the state where the company is HQ'd (not my state of residence) to see if I have grounds to file a lawsuit for breach of fiduciary responsibility to the corporation - against him. (He forced the filing even though he was warned twice by me that the timing could destroy our chances at a new, very lucrative contract. It did.)

Now, I don't know if I'd be "here" (considering the breach lawsuit too) if I hadn't gone ahead and filed for D. It _was_ crossing a boundary of sorts - even though I didn't want to cross it. And nothing's in his face at the moment...I'm just exploring the "other lawsuit" option. The only thing I've done about the D is not let him rush to a quick settlement (which he's tried 3 times so far). I get the Harley "B until you're sure, and only then, D" notion - but there really are times that this is NOT in the best interest of the BS. I was counseling w/Steve Harley at the time, and he was in 100% agreement to file, given the legal issues.

Since none of us have do-overs, I will never know if things would have been different if I had done nothing. I suspect I'd be divorced already, because he would have driven the show.

- M

Oh, I refuted you perfectly. I posted your claim of Plan A ending 15% of affairs and Plan B ending 80%. You just keep spinning.

The problem is you believe you are never wrong.

I've shown you where you claim MB principles end 95% of affairs. What say you?

I've shown you where you claim MB principles end 95% of affairs. What say you?
[/quote]

No you have not, IAM. This says:

"It should tell you that 15% end in Plan A and that the other 80% end in Plan B. "

That does not say that "MB principles end 95% of affairs."

So, I ask you again, where has anyone said that MB principles end 95% of affairs?

No you have not, IAM. This says:

"It should tell you that 15% end in Plan A and that the other 80% end in Plan B. "

That does not say that "MB principles end 95% of affairs."

So, I ask you again, where has anyone said that MB principles end 95% of affairs? [/quote]

How about the little fact that only MB uses the terms Plan A and Plan B?

IAM, rest assured that I was not implying that MB principles end 95% of affairs. I am only saying that 95% of affairs end within 2 years. Of those that DO USE MB, we could logically conclude that since 15% end in Plan A that the others end in plan B.

That is not to say that PLAN B "ends" them, only that, for whatever reason, that is when the majority END. Saying that something ENDS during Plan B is not the same as saying that "MB principles end the affair."

Hope that clarifies the issue for you.

It does but it's not me I'm worried about it's the BS's.

Thanks for the clarification. I think it's of the utmost importance for the newly 'heart removal patients' who come here to understand what they are in for.

We can only make an informed decision with all the information.

Umm Pom - can you show where I said any of those things were manipulation?


I agree.


I completely agree.

glad we agree big k.

For the rest of you:

90% of all statistics can be made to say anything you want. Well, about 50% of the time, anyway.

But there's a 67% chance I could be wrong.

State or country jurisdictional rules are actually very critical to the whole process. In fact, it would be nice if there were some handy links or fact-sheets on this site to refer to, because they vary greatly.

It goes back to Pom's original discussion - would he have been better off if he had been more aggressive about custody and other "divorce" issues in the beginning, given that he ended up divorced anyway, and his state of divorce turned out to be better than what his state of marriage likely could have been?

Obviously this question is completely hypothetical because we only know what DID happen. Who knows what could have happened.

BUT, there are differences in family law and outcome depends greatly on some of your earliest actions. I'm in Canada where we write our own separation agreement and the divorce is a mere formality that nobody bothers with. I got a great settlement by acting swiftly. OWH in my sitch got a lousy one for trying to be "fair" and leaving out custody issues, assuming his WW would respect their daughter's need to have her own father in her life. He didn't know about wayward-fog at the time. I think this is why I feel sensitive to Pom's cause. I also have a very good friend who fought his WW and ended up with a fabulous custody agreement - without going to court.

There has to be a balance somewhere, but it is also important to know what each new BS is up against. Though the legal issues are so hard to think about at that time, what you do about them in the beginning sets the stage for the entire process - whether recover is achieved or not.

Some statistics:

From Dear Peggy,com

From Infidelity Assistance

From Infidelity Facts

From Truth About Deception

Some numbers from 1962 that predict current trends

Some thoughts about what the numbers mean from TARA PARKER-POPE

Bump for Krazy.