Hi, this is my first post and I'm sure it will all sound very familiar, but it feels good to get it out there. (I posted this elsewhere but it was suggested that I come here.)

A little background: My wife and I have been together for over nine years, married for five. We had two children quickly after getting married which was earlier than planned, but still part of the plan. Over the last five years we have remodeled 3 homes together, raised the most amazing children and worked our a*ses off trying to create a future together. I built our current home and it is an expression of both of our hopes and dreams. We've had some money struggles and career struggles and of course the intense day to day life of raising small children. About 6 months ago my wife started going out with her friends more and hanging out in a neighborhood bar where her friend works. At first I wanted her to have this, but I was too prideful to go to the stinky bar and stayed home. This started a rift between us which grew and grew. She expressed a couple times that she was having some doubts about our marriage. I felt very content so I couldn't understand where she was coming from. We worked on a few things and I felt we were on our way to a better place. She was staying out more and more and later and later. One day she told me that our marriage was in serious trouble. This time I listened and found this website and went to work trying to reconnect with her. We went on dates and created fun romantic evenings at home together. I did a lot of introspective examination. Then she came home from work and told me that the marriage was over and there was nothing I could do. I was devastated. Turns out she told me this because her friend at the bar was about to blow the whistle on her affair. Her friend told my brother who told me on the same day she said she was leaving. Double kick to the stomach. I felt we had something very special and it was horrifying to see it evaporate before my eyes. After a lot of bitter realizations to her, where she was extremely sorry and remorseful, we both posed the question of reconciliation. I realized that I didn't want it to end if I looked at the big picture. So we set about doing this. She proposed that we split the week with our children and the other half sleeping on relatives' couches. I didn't want this, but felt like things were too fragile to make demands. Ever since that, she has only expressed doubts that this could work. She is making a concerted effort to withhold a decision which is unusual for her, and she has made some reconciliatory gestures. But, I've come to realize that the affair is still going on and the other man thinks she's just trying to leave me. I've been engaged in a very intense Plan A for about two and a half weeks now. I am getting very little back from her, but we remain friendly. I'm finding the ups and downs to be shocking even as I realize this is just going to keep happening. The feeling of powerlessness is taking its toll on me and I endlessly rehearse my Plan B letter. I have given myself until mid March to keep Plan A in place, then to reevaluate or enact Plan B, depending on progress. Mid March seems like an eternity at this point, but I think two months is a good amount of time for me. Here is the first draft of my letter:

(Wife's Name) I love you. I want us to recommit to our marriage. I have dedicated every waking moment of the last two months trying to reconnect with you and express my desire to reconcile. It is taking too great a toll on me. The threat of our marriage ending, the betrayal of the affair and it's continuation and the apparent lack of progress with my reconciliation is pushing me to the breaking point. I will now concentrate on my life moving forward. I need to face the future having learned from this, and make decisions for my health and the health of our children.

There is no excuse for your betrayal. It was the most destructive thing you could have done to us. I know you didn’t do it to hurt me, and I hope you can help me understand your side of this. I fully accept my part in this. I have not always treated you as an equal and I have allowed our life and our kids to come before my attention to your needs. I do not feel that our marriage was beyond help.

I would like you to find your own living arrangements. I would like you to take your possessions with you. I have begun advertising the lower floor of our house to be a rental space. I would like us to be financially independent. Once you have a stable living situation and you can assure me that anyone living with you is a healthy presence for our children, we can negotiate the details of our childrens' living situation.

I will continue to hope we can remain together. I am not doing this to hurt you or to be vindictive. I'm sure you understand that the current arrangement is excruciating for me, and I need that to stop.

I'm prepared to start my life without you. This is an experience which has caused enormous suffering, but also a surprising strengthening of my person and self-esteem at the same time. I deeply regret the damage this will cause our children, but I need to set an example for them. If we end our marriage, I will put their care as my highest priority.

I will not communicate with you except as it pertains to business or our children. If you want to discuss reconciliation, I will only accept your deepest commitment to recovery, and a clear demonstration that infidelity has ended. I propose that we follow the guidelines of Dr. Harley's book. It seems like as good a guideline as I can find.

I am so sorrowful that our life has turned into this. I will forever regret not being able to understand and meet your needs. I take responsibility for my part in this. I continue to hope that we can come through this, but will only accept a healthy outcome whether it's with you or without you. We deserve better than this. Our children deserve better than this.

If you need to contact me, do it in the form of email or text message.

-Me

Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

Actually Plan B should be completely dark so she doesn't have you meet her ENs in ANY way. Can you get an intermediary. As far as the letter, there are still so DJs in there. I think it's a good start though.

You are nowhere NEAR Plan B and need to be spending this time trying to save your marriage. So far, all I see here is COOPERATION with the destruction of your marriage, which will result in a ................destroyed marriage. Such as sleeping at relatives homes. How do you plan on saving your marriage if you are not there?

I am very confused about this part:


I don't understand what you mean here, you say you posed the question of "reconciliation" but you werent separated. Then you say you AGREE to reconcile but then commence to engage in some cockamamie sleep over plan with relatives. If you agree to reconcile, then why don't you reconcile??

Were you separated? Do you want to save your marriage? Why are youi sleeping at relatives homes?? And do these relatives know that the reason is accommodate your W's sleazy affair? Do they know they are actually ENABLING her affair and the destruction of your children's family?

confused in Texas....

I agree with your strategy to give Plan A a time limit:
Here is Plan A for you, Zen:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

I agree that I'm nowhere near Plan B, it just gives me solace thinking about it.

We agreed to reconcile but she has done very little on her end. I'm bending over backward with pretty sound Plan A tactics as I understand them. She has made a few nice gestures, but I'm about 99% sure she's still in the affair, so it means very little. Since that original agreement, she has mostly just said that she is too unsure and scared to reconcile. I continually reassure her, but doesn't seem to get anywhere. She had an anxiety attack and called me last week saying I was the only person who could help her. I talked her through it for awhile but was unsure how I could help her when she's in love with another man. I think the conversation helped and she was fairly friendly for the rest of the day. Most of the time, she has very a high emotional wall up.

So should I refuse to leave the house? I didn't want this separation, but she is insisting on it. So this is more of a tough love thing without LBs? I think I'm being a doormat right now and I'm tired of it.

I like the carrot and stick tactic. I think in interpreting the no LBs rule, I am being far too needy and accomodating. So I refuse to leave the house, in a firm but gentle manner, and leave it up to her what she does with that?

What do you know about this Other Man (OM)?

Zen, it is NOT Plan A to enable an affair. What you are doing has NOTHING to do with Plan A, but rather is Plan AssKissing. That will get you NOWHERE. The first problem I see here is this weird separation agreement that enables her to go cat around. She is also enabled when you leave the house and sleep at relatives. That is a bad idea that needs to STOP. You are enabling the affair by doing this.

There is absolutely NO REASON you should ever leave your home to enable her adultery. Many courts would view this as ABANDONMENT. You have children to take care of and it is irresponsible to leave them so your W can commit adultery. You are all they have right now and if you won't stand up for their family, then WHO WILL?

So, please end this nonsensical pretend "separation" right now and tell her this is over. Go sleep in your bed each and every night, right where you belong.

The affair also needs to be exposed to everyone: relatives, parents, siblings, children. Exposure ruins the fantasy of the affair and forces the adulterer to see herself through the eyes of others.

I would also be calling up the OM's family and exposing to them.


You should be telling her that her affair is hurtful to you and the children and asking her to end it.


If she wants to "separate" tell her she can leave but you are going nowhere. This is not "tough love" it is not allowing your W to kick you out of your OWN HOME so she will be free to get laid elsewhere. That is ridiculous. Yes, you are being a doormat.


you got it! Tell her you have no interest in leaving the house and decline her offer for YOU to leave. Tell her you will not cooperate in her separation scheme or her adultery. <----use that word. Then SMILE and leave it at that!

Thanks so much for the advice. I need some feeling that I'm taking action, and I think this will achieve just that. No more doormat.

I don't know much about the other guy other than a mutual friend says he's not much of a catch, has a history of going after married women and has been head over heels for my wife from day one.

Good job! you will be standing up for your marriage and your children's family. If you cooperate with a wayward, whose intent is the destruction of your marriage and your children's family, she will succeed. As the head of this family, it is up to you to stand up for your marriage. For all of your sakes! Your kids need you to protect them from this.

The next critical step will be to expose this affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy so exposure is like chemotherapy to cancer. It may not kill the affair immediately, but it will hasten its death.

It is best to expose in the same day, in one fell swoop. The prevents the affairees from getting wind of your exposure tactics and PRE-EMPTING YOU. She will call people and tell them you are imagining an affair and are insanely jealous. So when you do call, your credibility will have been shot.

Exposure targets would be:

1. All of your parents, yours, hers and the OM

Parents should be told the true facts and then [very important---->] asked for their advice. Asking for their advice helps them BUY IN. you hope they will offer to speak to your WS

2. all relatives that have been hosting you two - some might be upset to find out they have unwittingly been enabling an affair, so i would tell them right away. Tell them the facts, tell them you are trying to save your marriage and ASK FOR THEIR ADVICE.


3. YOUR CHILDREN if they are over 4 and old enough to understand the concept of adultery. Children are hurt by LIES and need to be told WHY their family is in an uproar. They need to be told about the adultery, told that adultery is immoral and that the OM is a bad man. If you don't do this, I assure you that your wife will lie to them and/or introduce them to the OM, if she hasn't already. Telling your kids will leave them LESS vulnerable. Your wife can answer their questions about WHY she is destroying their family for her adultery. Give her a chance to look them in the face and tell them why she is doing this horrendous, despicable thing to them.

I would also suggest finding out WHO the OM is RIGHT AWAY and if he is married. If he is married, you would want to expose to his wife. You can plug his name into www.peoplefinder.com and see if some family members come up. Another way is to look up his home # and call his house [disguise your # with *67] and see if a woman answers. If so, tell her about the affair.

Zen

Mels advise is good...trust her

Couple things for a man going thru hell right now

When you do expose...your W will be furious!! You are a male and at a bit of a disadvantage...simply because of being a man!! What I mean is a mans anger is seen by people as violent/crazy etc. Keep your cool...silence is golden....IF you want to say something to get back at her it probably will fall on deaf ears rite now so don't waste your energy.

This part may seem extreme but think about it.....
When you decide to expose get a couple DVRs....top of kitchen cabinet is a great spot. When you see her right after exposure at home make sure...1 you do very little talking.....2 keep her in the kitchen....3 some of the things she will say may seem so ridiculous you will feel your self boiling.....refer to #1!!

I found myself 1 day standing with the cops on my front lawn. I was mostly at fault because I started the conversation. I never got violent, threatening, etc but my W was quick to call the cops!! I told the officers what had transpired and that I was recording everything (don't say it in front of your W!). I offered for them to listen if they wanted but they declined. I asked the cops...who were all guys.....how would you guys feel if you were me?? The talk went from cops/angry husband to just some guys sharing advise....kinda nice!!

I don't want to scare you...every sitch is different....just some food for thought.

Great advice, Carp!

And yes Carp is very right. Your wife will be furious when you interfere with her affair. She will say things like "I was going to work on the marriage, now I'm not", "you have hurt the OM's family," "you have hurt our children" I have a right to my privacy!" blah, blah, blah, blah.

Just compare her to a crack head who is FURIOUS that you ruined her high by bringing in a crowd of onlookers into the crack house. She is furious that you ruined her high!

But don't let her anger scare you. Let her twist off and don't try to reason with her or allow her to bait you into a fight. Just say "I'm sorry you are so upset, you would like a potato chip?" Anything else will be a waste of time!

And remind yourself that the goal is to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, not to avoid your wife's wrath.

Thx Mel!!

Zen. DO NOT leave your house or your bed!!

Start a journal. Do it here or email it to yourself everyday.

Don't sit around doing nothing!! Rite now I am waiting for friends at Olive Garden!!

Don't make hasty decisions. If your brain is swimming with stuff....come here and vent. Questions....hair brained schemes...post here.

This part will do you the most good.....TAKE CONTROL of the rest of your family!! If stuff goes bad....when one spouse is in an A they are not really thinking about everyone else.....somebody has to keep the ship upright.

Wow, the advice really means a lot right now. Feeling so alone through this. Thankfully, most of the exposure is done, thanks to the gossip mill, and my ability to rely on friiends and family. I filled in more of her friends tonight who were shocked and amazed. There aren't too many more who don't know, so I don't think it will be quite as bad as it could be. Frankly I think most of her friends/our friends see me as a stabilizing force in her life, so they will not support this at all.

She will be furious about a couple of these friends, but I'm pretty sure she's spent the last few days with 'The Dude' as I call him, so I'm not feeling terribly upset by rocking her boat.

It seems so clear once someone slaps me in the face. Why did I just go along with her separation idea? Well, it's because I feel like we're hanging on a thread and I desperately want to save this. But in reality, the damage is done. Our marriage as it was is over. If it recovers from this, or doesn't, it won't be because of a few flair ups for her. I'm committed to the hard work to make my end of things right.

I had a bunch of friends over tonight and man does that help. These are all people who know the situation and are very supportive. (A couple beers helps too - I'm a very light drinker so don't be alarmed).

Thank you all for your support. I can see that this will be a very valuable tool to keep my head about me. I 'll keep you posted as to the outcome of my refusal to leave the house. I'm sure it won't be pretty.

This is the note I sent this morning:


Hi.

I’ve made some decisions about where we’re going and what I need to do. My stance on us is not changed in any way. I love you deeply and only want a thriving marriage with you. I will do almost anything to achieve that.

I am not going to leave this house for this separation any longer. I went along with it because I was deathly afraid of tipping the scales with us, but if our relationship is contingent on me avoiding your anger or snap decisions, then I don’t think there is much I can do to avoid it. I have no idea if you are still involved in the affair, but our separation does nothing to stop it or begin the reconciliation of our marriage. If you are trying to decide between us, I don’t think this separation does anything to aid that decision one way or another. I won’t leave my home while you are with another man.

I will continue to put my life back together and to heal and grow through this. I hope you will agree to join me in this. We have amazing, supportive friends and family who will continue to be there for both of us. I want you to stop this relationship because it destroys our love and our family. However, I will accept whatever decision you make. I appreciate that you have had the patience and will power to avoid making drastic decisions thus far. I will continue to withhold any decisions about us as well.

Zen, exposing to friends is not very useful. The more impactful exposures are to PARENTS, EMPLOYERS [if a workplace affair], children, siblings, etc. That is where your exposure will have an impact. There is not much impact with friends.

Another good tactic is meeting with the OM face to face and letting him know you are very married and will fight for your marriage. It may be that your wife is lying to him about her marital status.


Try not to be too hard on her and don't lovebust. But she has absolutely no right to ask you to leave your own home so she can cheat with abandon. That is outrageous.

Do you have children? How old?

Are you hoping to REASON with a person who uses no reason?

Zen, I would not give her this letter and I most certainly would not say things like: "However, I will accept whatever decision you make. " HUH? Don't tell her that! Tell her the OPPOSITE! That you will only discuss recovering your marriage. That is all you will accept!

I would keep it simple and just say you made a bad decision by agreeing to sleep away from home and won't be doing that anymore. If she wants to "separate" then she needs to move out herself because you will not be enabling her sleazy affair any longer.<----use that phrase. I would then tell her that her ADULTERY [it is not a "relationship" it is an AFFAIR] is hurtful to you and the children and ask her to end her affair so you can work on your marriage.

Zen.

Refer to my post!! No letters/talks etc until you get a chance to throw it out there for us too look at or talk about. I did a lot of the same stuff with little to no impact at the time. I was doing the "look what I did tell me what you think how can i fix it" kind of stuff....what I should have done was "this is how I feel or want to do can someone give me some advise"!! I got a lot of 2x4s for it!!

A careful plan is better the trying to mop up chit!!

Hope this helps. I know being a man we love to fix stuff!!

Zen, as Carp will also tell you, the appeasement plan will get you nowhere. This is where so many men mess up, they believe that APPEASING a wayward wife will buy them some endearment. NO IT DOES NOT.

What it does buy is DISRESPECT and tends to FUEL the affair.

A woman does not respect a man she can run over. Our love is contingent upon the respect we feel. Men have this INSTINCT to please women, but that instinct should not be followed when their wife is out of her mind and being a tyrannical dictator, because PLEASING A WAYWARD whose goal is to destroy your marriage will result in a ......destroyed marriage.

Please believe me when I say that allowing your W to run over you will not endear her to you, it will DISGUST HER. Women grow to LOATHE men that allow them to mistreat him. It is DISGUSTING. A woman RESPECTS a man who stands up firmly and lovingly when she is doing wrong. A woman RESPECTS a man who stands up for his family, no matter how mad she gets.

To my amazement, men seem to be more scared of a womans wrath than getting beat up by a bruiser. I have never been able to understand that, but y'all seem to be wired like that.

Dang, you folks are quick!

I already sent the email. I'll try to remember to check here before more communications like that.

I have by FAR the most amazing 3 year old boy and 4 year old girl on the planet. They have no idea what's going on. So far, Mommy and Daddy are 'working' a lot.

She has a 13 year old son from her last marriage. I just got in touch with his father to talk about this with him.

The truly scary thing is that this is history repeating itself. I met my wife at the end of her marriage. Turns out, I helped her end it. Our first couple dates I didn't know she was married. Then it came out and she insisted that they were separated and the marriage was dead, blah blah (EXACTLY what she tells the OM!). I was hooked at that point so I ignored the brain and dove in head first. Now I'm on the other end. I owe that man an apology. I never viewed it as an affair until now.

Our relationship was pretty rocky at first because I was scared to death of what I was getting into and she was insanely needy. We eventually grew to have a very strong relationship with good communication. I think we beat the odds for affair relationships.

Anyway, none of this bodes well for me in this. I'm a pretty centered, compassionate person, but if this isn't the worst case of karmic revenge, I don't know what is. It also doesn't speak well for her ability to deal with unhappiness in her life, which I think is at the core of this.

Oh and yes, I'd much rather get beat up by a guy than face my wife on the war path. I call her North Korea... she's always willing to escalate. Interestingly, the few times she's softened through this have been when I'm coming down pretty hard on her. I have been very careful not to LB, but I think a whole lot bigger ba*ls are in order. Thanks for the excellent advice. Like a gentle Charles Bronson. That’s where the ZenWolf name came from… firm but gentle.

Should I write a letter to the OM? I know someone who knows him. He's getting a ton of grief for this from his friends.

Zenwolf, it is better to VISIT the OM in person so he can put a name to a face.

But, your most POWERFUL WEAPON is exposure. Exposure to her parents, his parents, your parents, other key family members. That is your BEST weapon against an affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy so exposure ruins the fantasy aspect. It is like bringing in a crowd of onlookers into the crack house to watch the crack heads get high. It ruins the high! Being bad is no fun when everyone is watching.

You better batten down the hatches. I predict rough weather ahead.

Zen

My WW told me the day our M was over in HER eyes!! This was way before i found out about the A. Coulda fooled me. Wayward spouses come up with some wierd stuff.....water off your back my man.

OK, here's a draft of the letter:

Dude:
I’m writing this letter to inform you of my marriage to (wife). I am deeply in love with my wife, and I have every intention of spending the rest of our lives together. We have a date at the bottom of a volcano in about 45 years. She and I share a bond that has grown through intense intimacy, physical and emotional, sharing extreme hardships and the joy and agony of creating two beautiful children together. I do not feel connected to any other human like I feel connected to my wife. We have shared the most beautiful moments of our lives together.

Becky’s disillusion with our life together was not made known to me until fairly recently. I am truly sorry for any part of that disillusionment that I have contributed to. I will do everything in my power to help her get through these feelings and to remember how special our life together is. I will make every effort to make her happy and to remove any behavior or dynamic which causes unhappiness. She is everything to me, and I will not just let this happen while I sit idly by. You need to know how much we love each other.

Since I found out about the affair, Becky has expressed doubts that we can reconnect and regain what we have had. For me it is not lost, so I know I can do my part. She has continually expressed a desire to reconcile with me, even as your affair continues. She has told me that she loves me, not just platonically. She has told me that I know her better than anyone else, and asked me to help her through an anxiety attack last week. She bought me an incredibly thoughtful and reconciliatory birthday gift last week.

This letter is not an attempt at manipulating or controlling anyone. I think you need to know that there is a deeply hurting human being and two of the most precious little children on this earth who stand to lose a great deal if your affair continues. These children face the possibility of losing their childhood in a loving nurturing family. They face the possibility of going through much of the misery that (wife) and I faced as children. This is all avoidable. I will not just let this happen.

I will not threaten you or pursue any inappropriate means to end this. I am asking you to examine what you may already know: You are helping to destroy a marriage that is very much still alive and family that has yet to face the dysfunction it is now confronted with. It is cowardly and unhealthy to continue this affair.

-ZenWolf

Zen, do we have to break your fingers, my friend!??

Stop with the letters already and go FACE THE MAN!! [leave your pistol in the car]

What your letter BROADCASTS is this: I am a touchy feely guy who will not lift a finger to stop you from destroying my marriage. I am going to appeal to a sense of decency THAT DOES NOT EXIST. In other words, you are OPENLY telling him he can do what he wants to you and your kids!

You are bringing a squirt gun to a GUN FIGHT!

You don't even want to broadcast that kind of WEAKNESS to such a man!

And it is none of his damn business about personal details about your marriage OR YOUR FEELINGS! The OM does not give a rats [censored] about your feelings. Don't share your most personal feelings with an interloper whose goal is the destruction of your marriage. That is to throw pearls to swine. All he needs to know is this:

1. your WW is married and has 2 little children

2. I will fight for my marriage and will drag your [censored] into court in any potential legal proceedings to testify under oath about your affair with a married woman. I will not allow you to be around my children

3. there is no future for you in her family - you would be perpetually hated for breaking up this family

4. what are your intentions with my wife?

Jesus, you're rough.

I'm adding this too:

"During your affair, we have made love passionately many times."

Even I made love to my W Zen.

Mel can be rough Zen....but she is rite!!

Mel...can you copy paste my family letters for him??

OM is not gonna read a letter Zen....he doesn't care. His parents/family...that's different!!

The main purpose of this letter is to undermine what I know she has told him. I get occassional feedback from his friends about what he's hearing from her.

I'll have to think about confronting him in person. Not my usual style, but this is about changing your usual style, isn't it?

Thanks for the help everyone.

I'll look into telling his family and friends... This is gonna get interesting.

Zen, the reason I am ROUGH is because AFFAIRS are rough! Your marriage and family are under assault. You cannot REASON with a terrorist. A terrorist does not give a hoot about your feelings or respond to appeals to decency. To do so only broadcasts a WEAKNESS that he will exploit. He responds to your FIST. [symbolically!] He will respond to STRENGTH.



That is a good goal! But that needs to be done IN PERSON. And that needs to be done without sharing your feelings and your history with him. That pig has no right to any of that information. All he needs to know are some pertinent facts and that HELL IS COMING HIS WAY.


This is about choosing to stand up for your marriage and your childrens family, Zen. Is that your style? Is it your style to fight for your family? Or is it your style to try and negotiate with a terrorist to give him something to laugh about?

This is good information. you are ignoring my posts about exposure, Zen. Why?

Zen,

Mel is right. He will not even read your letter unless it's to get a good laugh and maybe show it to your WW so he can say you don't have the guts to face him, man-to-man.

OM are cowards. Don't kick his butt or threaten to. Just come right out and tell him your WW is married and ask him what his intentions are. Does he intend to marry her?

I was 800 miles away so I couldn't face to face but I wasn't gonna wait another day. I called his work, cell and home multiple times and was leaving messages until he finally called me back. I said pretty much what Mel says to say. You gotta scare this dude off and some letter ain't gonna do it. Let him know what IS going to happen if he doesn't back off. He will because he is a coward POS.

Then your WW will rage at you for ruining everything, but will have to live with the fact that she didn't mean enough to him to fight for her.

It really got to my WW when i told her that I talked to him and he denied the whole thing, and then said he had no intention of marrying her and never did and that he didn't want anymore trouble. She still raged, but that really burst her bubble and her ego.

SWW

I am engaging in the exposure as we speak. I just updated her parents and am looking for ways to contact his people. I've told her ex who will tell her son. I've told the remaining friends who don't know about it.

Alright, I'm going after him. I'll see if I can meet him.

Wow after reading this I got to say history is repeating itself. My advice to you is to stop being Mr. Nice Guy and see a lawyer and know your rights.

Your wife is doing exactly what she did to her first marriage and you were the OM. She is doing the same thing to you and she knows she can just move on with another guy and her life will continue and it will be great...at least for a while.

If your wife is not willing right away to work on the marriage then in my opinion they are not worth having as a wife. Others feel different but if you allow a woman to cheat on you she has no incentive to stop.

My life experience has been when I started making my now XW life difficult she changed and wanted to save our marriage. I hurt my ex by moving on without her and finding someone else. If I would have just let her continue sleeping with another guy she would have and made my life heck.

In your case you are in worse shape. Your wife has done this in the past. It is a pattern and she probably will not change. If she has had 2 affairs in her life what makes you think she will not have number 3?


You get it here! You are in for an unhappy life if you allow her to cheat and then beg her to stay. If she is not willing to stop what she is doing and work on things you had better make sure she does not destroy everything you hold dear.

Financial considerations and your children need protecting. You have told her that you want to stay married then fine. But if she still cheats on you then you need to see a lawyer and get your ducks in a row. If you do not you will be out of your house without your children.

When I want on offense and my ex knew I was not a doormat she knew she could lose me and she did not want that. I protected myself by being aggressive and not being a doormat.

If she has done this in the past and cheated on her first husband and is doing this to you it is not a just a woman who is confused. It is a woman who makes a pattern out of this and chances are you are on your way out.

Just make sure you protect yourself. I have seen this type of woman before and she destroyed my Dad. Don't put your head in the sand and just understand you need to protect yourself.

Good, because this:

"During your affair, we have made love passionately many times."

Was not gonna do it...

Let us know how it goes, and keep your cool.

I'm going to see if I can confront the Dude this afternoon. I think it's quite likely he's at the pub where my wife is working today for the Superbowl.

Here goes the sh*t storm of the century!

I'm thinking of sending photos of this guy to my wife's friends and family. He's a loser. Does this sound good or bad?

Yes Good


but then I am a scorched earth type. I will do anything to protect my wife and family from an OM predator.

Good idea to confront OM and OMGF in a pub -

Bring a friend.

Yeah, bring a friend so your thread doesnt suddenly end like marty's

Damn, I wish you guy's would post on my thread, and tell me I am a pansy, that would straighten my a-$-$ up real quick.

Zen, Please take their advise, you should NOT allow her to do this, you can not BEG her to quit having an affair, and you can not BEG her to come back.

Why would she, she still has you in her back pocket, and humping another man at the same time.

Yeah, I totally know what your feeling, and probably have done some of what your doing at the beginning, but my god man, she humping someone else, and humping you TOO.

How on earth could you even think of sticking it in there right now? Ewwwwwwww, have you been checked at the Dr's yet? I have both times, and I would advise you the same. Maybe not needed but gives you peace of mind.

Keep your weenie in your pants. I seriously can't see how she would even look sexy right now.

Ok I am getting off on a anger rant, sorry.

Ok you are a pansy.

just kidding...but i hope it helped.

Zen,

yeah take a friend if you can. I am not sure though about confronting OM in front of the WW. This is between you two, man-to-man. He will pose or posture in front of WW, that's not what you want and it could wind up with you in jail.

Perhaps wiser heads can weigh in on this before it's too late.

I have read the same before somewhere else. I only recommend to take a friend as a witness....not as extra ars whoopin! Violence is not the answer or what you are looking to do.

No to violence - what I mean by scorched earth is that I will spend my last penny in my attempt and expose to the world to break up an A. Even using a billboard proclaiming this man is destroying your family.


a simple question to the OM is what are your intentions with my wife. You make sure he understands if he keeps contact that you will always be in the picture even if its because of the kids. There will be drama in his future.

Well he wasn't there. I took flowers to my wife as a pretense for going to her work. She was all awkward and totally avoided me. I think my suspicions are confirmed that she's headed out the door. We'll see.

I have a new sense of empowerment which as welcome relief from the helpless anxiety of my last two weeks. Thanks everybody!!!

No no no, we made love many times while the affair was occurring, UNKNOWN to me. Jesus, that part of me is dead since D-day.

I too found this stuff out Zen!! Remember one thing....you are not crazy for what you are feeling!! Your WW may start to say this stuff. When she does....DO NOT show how hurt you are.
You start your journal yet?

Oh yeah, journaling has been one of the few things helping me keep it together. That and the control it takes to remain a good and patient parent to a 3 and 4 year old through this. I have felt utterly defeated with occasional glimpses of hope and strength. Today I feel like I've taken some steps to regain control of my life.

This week is going to be freaking CRAZY. One of the emotions she expresses best is anger, and I think I am about to see the pinnacle of it. If I was a bettin' man, I'd say this will send her over the edge and out the door. Buuuut, hopefully, it will help her hit bottom and see what her life has turned into. I will provide an open door is she wants to come back.

Good god this is going to be nuts. I am Steve McQueen, Charles Bronson and Gandhi all in one. Well, that's the goal anyway.

Zen,

I really did not mean to sound as harsh as I did.
I appologize, if I offended anyone by the "sticking it inn" comment.

But seriously dude, go get checked.

Not sure how many others have, I would, and have.

The last thing I ever wanted was to be seperated, and possibly heading for divorce. But her putting my life at jepordy because of it, is out of the question.

But then again, if I did not know she was with another man, it quite possibly be too late. Then I think she would be in serious hard times from me.

Anyways, keep the faith brotha.....You are NOT alone!!!

Exposure brings he power back to the BS!!
If she flips and leaves....she leaves alone. My W sat me down one day about an apartment she was getting for her and the girls. I stood up and calmly but win authority told her....you can go....this has nothing to do with the kids...this is their home and this is where they belong and are safe.

The bad part!!!!! She is still here!! Not for long I hope....our first temp custody hearing is this Wednesday.....Initiated by me! Keep up the journal....I do mine online so it can't be destroyed. Document everything....read my thread if you get a chance.

OK, some more advice sought:

I have put an end to the separation. I am not leaving the home. If wife wants to stay home, I will not tolerate an arrangement where she just pursues her affair right under my nose. Do I just make an ultimatum?

If you're going to stay home, you need to abide by the no contact rules. If you're not, then you need to find another place to stay.

If she refuses to go? Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Carp54,

Wow, your thread is exhausting. I have a lot of stamina for a long drawn out battle, but you my friend, take the cake.

I guess part of the goal in this is to know in your heart of hearts that you gave it your all for your marriage and your kids.

I could totally see my situation going down this path. My wife is a fighter! I'm not sure I'd hang in there as long as you are.

You ask yourself over and over, "How did our life turn into this?" Two months ago, this is the woman I would have told anything. Complete trust and comfort. This is gonna get lonely. Thank goodness for a lot of dear friends and family.

Zen

I have noticed that WW (at least mine for sure) do not or will not leave without the kids!! Men on the other hand seem to just split!! No one can force someone to leave....except for the law. As the man you need to keep your cool. My WW does not equate what she is doing as wrong so me telling her she needs to leave or stop her A has no effect at all. This is where your journal comes in. Everything that happens I document.
Have you seperated $$?
Utilities in your name, car ins, credit cards etc?
Have you consulted an attorney? Depending on your state adultery can be really bad.

More food for thought.

I started posting on the DB forums in august. I came here in mid December.
I have asked the same question in my head a 1000 times.
One thing I say to myself.....whenever I do anything.....how will my actions affect my kids?? I do not date, if I go out with friends I make them drive (no DUI for me), I NEVER drink at home.

I have tried to or successfully corrected anything my WW told me she disliked in the past.
My main concerns are my daughters....if my actions bring my WW back so be it.

zen, your instincts are right about this, you SHOULD NOT TOLERATE a situation where she flaunts her adultery in front of you and your kids. You can't throw her out, but you can ask her to move out because her adultery is too painful for you and the kids to endure. Ask her to have the decency to move out to carry on her affair. Encourage her to LEAVE if she is going to continue her affair from your home.

If she won't do that, then you would want to file for legal separation getting her moved out of the home. You would file for primary custody, possession of the home and an insertion that the kids are never to be exposed to her adultery partner.

To my amazement, we have situations here where WS have pulled this stunt of moving into the guest room, announcing they are "separated" and therefore entitled to act like they are single. It is the most amazingly brazen manipulation I have ever seen! Then they commence to carry on their adultery right in front of their own children and spouse. It is one of the cruelest things I have see in all my years here.

So, it will be up to you to ensure she doesn't you and your children in this way. Do not tolerate it! And if she calls the OM from your home, I would follow her around and say - right in front of your kids - "please take your affair conversation out of our home." Make it very hard for her to rub your nose in this indignity. Not to mention that it teaches your kids that wrong is right!

She will not respect you if you sit there and do nothing while she flaunts her affair. It is your job to cause as much confict in the affair as possible.

Mel is correct. I am living this scenario rite now....it sux!

WW thinks what they are doing is "ok" because they stay for the kids. In reality it causes more pain.

Yeah, I fear this is where I'm headed. She expressed extreme remorse when the affair was first revealed, but since then very little. I'm not sure decency is going to enter into her actions.

It's upsetting because I want the impression in her mind to be that I'm loving and forgiving, not trying to separate her from her children, which is probably how she will perceive this. Carp54, I suspect this is exactly how your dynamic played out.

I'm gonna trust you on this one guys and just play hardball. At this point the goal is to end the affair. Saving the marriage seems like a very slim chance at this point, but that is my goal, long term.

I'm only 2½ weeks in, so a lot will happen over the coming months.

Oregon is a no fault state, so my tools may be somewhat limited there. I'll check into the separation rules.

OK, email from the wife when I discontinued the separation:

1. thank you for the flowers - I was just a bit taken aback as I don't like bringing my issues to work with me. that and I was ridiculously busy. as it happened, the owners were in and asked about the flowers and I had to tell them. so uncomfortable.

2. I respect that you are making decisions that are good for you, but how am I supposed to get my time with the children? I was looking forward to my time with them.


This is my proposed response:

I agreed to the separation out of a desperate fear of losing you. I no longer fear that. Leaving my home while you carry on an affair is extremely abusive and disrespectful of you, and by doing it, I have displayed extraordinary neediness and co-dependence. I will no longer allow myself to be abused, and I won’t let my children live in such a situation.

It’s your decision what you want to do. I do believe that it is best for the children to have both parents in their lives. I think this current arrangement sets a terrible example and I won’t tolerate it any longer. If you want to move out, go ahead. We can talk about the children when you have a stable living situation and are making choices in their best interest.

couple changes:

I agreed to the separation out of a desperate fear of losing you. I no longer fear that. Asking me to leave my home while you carry on an affair is extremely abusive and disrespectful of you, and by doing it, I have displayed extraordinary neediness and co-dependence. I will no longer allow myself to be abused, and I won’t let my children live in such a situation.

It’s your decision what you want to do. I do believe that it is best for the children to have both parents in their lives. I think this current arrangement sets a terrible example and I won’t tolerate it any longer. If you want to move out, go ahead. We can talk about the children when you have a stable living situation and are making choices in their best interest. If you want to live here and agree to a plan for reconciliation, then I’m open to that as well.

I like the 2nd paragraph! The 1st one is soft.

Let some others see it also. I do all my posts from my iPhone so I can't copy/paste stuff....or have multiple windows open.

Personally, I like it ... its good to see a BH finally stand up for themselves and refuse to accept their WW's abuse.

Zen, I would let her know that you are not stopping her from staying home and being with her kids. How does she get time with her kids? She stays home! REAL EASY!

Good job on standing up for your marriage and your kids by not cooperating with her crazy separation scheme!

HOLY SH*T.

Well, that didn't go as I expected. Here's the very condensed version of the half hour conversation:

Wife calls me and starts with, "you can't make me leave my own house, you can't control custody of the children!"

I say, "I can't control you, but I'm asking you to stop sleeping with another man while you live in the house your husband built for you, with your children present. It's atrociously disrespectful and abusive and wrong by ANYONE'S standards. If you want to get out of a marriage, you express your problems, you work on them, if that doesn't work, you divorce."

She says voice softening more and more, "I'm not saying it isn't horrible."

I say "I contacted the other guy - he's completely irrelevant to me because I am by far the more powerful caveman and I want him to know I won't back down." She says, "I bet that was fun..." I say, "It was!"

I say, "I'm not afraid of losing you. You're already lost. If this goes anywhere, it's going to be new territory."

She says, "I still want all the same things I've always wanted - family, etc." (She's been living the dive-bar lifestyle a lot during the affair - early midlife crisis kinda stuff)

I say, "I still love everything about you, but I don't even know who you are right now."

Turns into small talk, how did this happen, boy what a big mess...

I bring up that I have talked to all of her friends about this - told them my side. This is the part I was expecting the she would explode about, but she accepted it.

She said thank you for talking to me. I said , "yep" she said, don't be cold, I said I would like nothing more than to hold you in my arms right now, but until this other person is out of our lives, all of this is irrelevant. She said, "you're right".

Bye bye.

So there you go, when your worst fear is realized and you just accept it, it's not so scary anymore. I'm sure this will be up and down again several times, but seems like some success for my Steve McQueen/Gandhi approach. Thank you everybody!!!

Oh, and I sent that letter to the dude, a little tougher version and he removed his Facebook page today. Aaaaah, the internet.

Wow, good job.

Now you can stand by your guns, show her that you will fight for your family, and see what she does next.

And the bar life part really has to go.

Oh yes, I've established a better position, but the battle has barely begun. Still, I'm amazed she didn;t just freak out. I honestly thought I'd be seeing Captain Howdy from 'The Exercist'.

We aren't even in reconciliatory mode yet. We've had 4 false starts so far so I don't put much credence in any of them until the Dude is gone. but yes, the bar life is part of what got us here. There's got to be a whole new 'us' if this doesn't go down the tube.

This whole part I can relate too!! Keep your anger in check. Think about a NC letter. Look around here for some examples.

I have a 6 page letter from my WW spilling everything.....yet we are in plan D.

Good job Zen -

Its an Alpha male thing. Women do not like wimps for husbands and yet we become betasise in time as they train us. One of life's mysteries - joke.

Plan A is about improving yourself and getting back to what you were at the beginning the relationship. At the same time - you make the A partners uncomfortable.

The A will not be as exciting now since you have laid out your boundaries with both parties. You will NOT go quietly into the night and let Dude be your replacement.

Even thought the war had been going on - you have now at least joined the battle.

hmmmm another serf turned into KNIGHT by standing up for his marriage and his family!!

Please go get the movie Fireproof!

Yeah, maybe I'll actually sleep tonight. I've lost 35 lbs in about a month and a half. Feels good!

there you go! Now remember this feeling and remember it when times get tough again.

Oh I know. I'm starting to be grateful for the times when I just get rid of the churning anxiety in my belly. I recognize that it's temporary, but it's a welcome respite.

She's meeting with a good friend who I think will give her some straight talk tonight. Exposure working!

Ugh, the roller coaster. Mostly chit chat from the WW today. Anxiety slowly creeping back. The only relief was meeting some friends for lunch.

Her mom came over to visit the kids today and we talked for awhile. She helped me see some of WW's disallusionment. Good to get her perspective because she had an emotional affair in her marriage.

Really struggling with anger and betrayal tonight. Feeling incredibly alone trying to keep it together with a potty training 3 year old and a 4 year old. I broke down crying in front of them for the first time and the 3 year old laughed! The 4 year old kept telling me to stop and started crying. Gotta keep it together in front of the kids.

OK, I will be talking to my wife tomorrow afternoon, and I'm trying to figure out the next move. The goal is to undermine the affair, right? The Alpha male technique really seems to work so I think I'm going to keep going with that. I'm really going to press her for a meeting with the Dude. I would like to see her reaction. I will reinforce that she needs to go elsewhere to have her new life. Any other suggestions? I'll make sure to turn up the good feelings, but with extreme confidence.

Oh! Here's an idea! I tell her that I would very much like to meet the Dude. "If he's going to be in our children's lives, I would like to have a long conversation with him. OK Dude, let's say my son has explosive diarrhea for 4 nights in a row and he keeps messing the bed. Are you going to help WW clean that up in the middle of the night? All this commotion has woken our daughter and she insists on sleeping in your bed, BEFORE you have a chance to DO IT? And she keeps doing this night after night because she's acting out because her parents have split..."

This says, I'm not afraid of his weasily a*s, AND I've accepted that our relationship is done. The ol' 'I can live without her' attitude. I'm finding that this attitude gains respect from her. Frankly, I'm getting to the point where I don't mind using that tactic because I'm fearing less and less the temporary nature of our ups and downs. Instilling enough alpha male respect and good feelings will hopefully increase the ups.

Then I may try to reinforce that some of my understanding of the disillusionment she feels, and the need to feel justified. I think this is key to healing because she's only getting validation from the Dude right now, and it takes some of that power away from him.

I'm just brainstorming late at night, so some of this might sound whacky, but I feel like I need to lower his potency by "above the belt" means.

If my info is correct from those who know him, he's already afraid of me, and quite weasily. I KNOW my wife does not find these attributes appealing in a man. I've always been a bit too laid back and I think she wishes I had more fire in my belly. Well I do now.

""Oh! Here's an idea! I tell her that I would very much like to meet the Dude. "If he's going to be in our children's lives, I would like to have a long conversation with him. OK Dude, let's say my son has explosive diarrhea for 4 nights in a row and he keeps messing the bed. Are you going to help WW clean that up in the middle of the night? All this commotion has woken our daughter and she insists on sleeping in your bed, BEFORE you have a chance to DO IT? And she keeps doing this night after night because she's acting out because her parents have split...""

I like this. Do it (ben stiller). Don't tell WW what your going to say in advance.

Now that you know some of why your wife was "disillusioned", you can work on that.

Zen, my suggestion would be not tell her you are paying him a visit so you will have the element of surprise. That will give you an advantage to catch him off guard. FOREWARNED is FOREARMED.

Secondly, I would strike this kind of language from your vocabulary now:


Its fine to convey that you can live without her, but you don't want to say that you have accepted your relationship is done. THAT IS HANDING VICTORY TO YOUR ENEMY! That will only give him the green light.

What he needs to understand is that you ARE NOT DONE. And that you will fight for your marriage. Tell him HELL IS COMING. Tell him you will drag his [censored] into court to testify under oath about his affair with your wife; that you will get him legally banned from ever being around your children. Tell him there is no future for him because he will be eternally hated by your children and your inlaws for breaking up their family. He needs to understand that you ARE NOT GOING TO LIE DOWN FOR HIM.

Which are you going to be more scared of if you are him: a kid's diarreaha or getting dragged into court for endless court proceedings to testify under oath about your sleazy behavior with a married woman?

Don't tell him that he has WON, Zen. Tell him HELL IS COMING.

Have you exposed to his parents? This is an excellent exposure opportunity that ruins the future prospects of the affair.

I just wanting to pop in and say that I really like where your head is at in this post. This attitude will serve you well in the troubled times to come. Alpha Male BH's do well in these terrible situations.

Thanks everyone. Mel, I won't say this, I will just express it by not walking on eggshells any longer.

I say things to her like, "If you want to have your other life, then you cannot do it in this house. Go have your new life. If you want to work on us, I'm willing"

How does taping family pictures on his door sound? I'll really press for the meeting as well.

-Steve McGandhi (Steve McQueen/Gandhi)

Oh boy, round two. She's still expecting to see her kids here at the house. I made it very clear that that's not OK. I told her she can take them to her mother's house and I will require confirmation that she's there, or she can take them to dinner or something. I told her that I will need to approve anybody she brings into their life if she decides to to that. I truly believe she hasn't thought this all through. She really wants her cake! I run the risk of bringing out the mama bear any second here, but I'll just tell her that I'm not afraid, I'm just looking out for myself and my children. She might have to start looking out for her children too.

There would be no standing for a custody battle with the kids, so in the end, I can't really do anything there. I don't want to either because it's in our children's best interest to have their parents in their lives. The courts will want us to have it all worked out, and neither of us fits the 'unfit' definition by the courts. I'm just trying to express to her that until she's established herself as separate from her marriage, I'm looking out for the children. Maybe I'm backing her into a corner, but I think it's more just a does of reality.

These would all be spelled out in a legal separation I think. That may be the next step.

Zen, have you told her she can't visit the kids in the house? Bring me up to speed, would you? Has she moved out? Where is she staying?

Love the new name, btw! Steve McGhandi!

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that WW is not to see them at their place of residence or at her place of residence.

Plan A is about exposure and meeting WW needs that excludes OM.

Yeah, I'm mixed up too.

I guess it was suggested that she not visit the kids in your home?

I'm telling her that she can't have me, the kide, the house and the lover. She can go have her new life, and start looking out for her kids in that context, or she can stay and work on her marriage. While the affair on, she can't be in this house with me and the kids.

I know I can't FORCE her out of the house, but I'm not going to just stand there and watch!

I'll tell her that I'm only looking out for myself and the kids if she's out of the picture.

If she goes and gets her own place and wants to leave the marriage, then we'll discuss the terms of the kids' living situation.

I can't really get anywhere in the courts in the event of a divorce, so we'll just have to agree on custody in the end. I'm not going to use them against her anyway.

The Plan A aspect: I don't want you to stay because I've backed you into a corner. I want you to stay because I understand your disillusionmnet and I want us to help heal and grow together again. I'm starting to view the affair as simply a symptom of the disillusionment, and the caveman needs to go out and claim what is his, then demonstrate why he's the right caveman.

Where are you getting the idea that the courts won't help? Because you're a man?

That's not true and that is a big fallacy that keeps BHes from taking real action

I say you play Mr. Nice Guy with her, make her think she'll get exactly what she wants when she willingly moves out, and THEN, after she does, you file for abandonment and sole physical and legal custody with restrictions that OM not be allowed to be around the children.

You offer her supervised visitation only. THIS is playing hardball and THIS, ironically enough, is the dose of reality that WWes need to get for the fog to have any kind of chance of lifting.

The courts respond to those who file first and are prepared. Sure, you may, in the long run have a 50/50 type arrangement which you hammer out with her, but you must file first, file for abandonment, and go for it all.

And this isn't using the kids as weapons. It's protecting them from an insane person.

I've fought the fight and got time with my kids, but I did it all backwards, waiting to file and thinking the courts were biased against me. That's not true, even in California.

File first and play hardball.

Let her move out to her own place and file on the ground of abandonment.

Yikes, very good progress today. Almost committed to NC - must not hang hopes...

Listen to Pom Zen.

Not letting your W see the kids at home?? Sounds odd to me.

You need to be Mr Nice Guy on the outside.....keep your plans inside.

Plan for the worst.....hope for the best.

Keep an eye on my thread as custody things are in the works now. I live in the land of Lincoln. It's a no fault state.

OK, she's staying home with me tonight, will see the kids and has agreed to no contact tonight. I wasn't really keen on doing this until I have a NC commitment and a recovery commitment, but I think I need to take it a little easy. I can't force her into this decision. I will still need to keep a high standard to end the affair, but I think I need to extend the carrot a little. Some very good reconciliatory conversation - me saying that I don't excuse the affair, but I understand why it happened. Years of me putting many things before my wife is a betrayal in itself and has caused her immense pain. Sure I thought I was doing it all for the family, but it's about EN FIRST, everything second. She did what she did to find happiness, not to hurt me. Just because I can bury my head in work for a long haul doesn't mean she doesn't deserve more fun and attention in the interim and a right to voice that need. I said we go forward with a clean slate. Tit-for-tat. I think that really got through to her.

She's pretty scared of breaking it off with the Dude. She acknowledged that they aren't soul mates, but will still hurt for him and herself. I told her I understand. i know this is going to be one of the tough parts. She was also really scared about the radical honesty... I told her that I don;t think I want to know the gory details, but I'd like her to be willing if I need it. She understood, but I think is still reluctant. I told her that I'd like to use the MB plan for recovery and she sounded receptive to it. She has read Surviving An Affair. She said she felt they over-simplified the recovery process. Yes, maybe, but there's a whole lot more material out there too.

OK, I'm open to suggestions on what's next. I don't really feel like I can force her into a decision, she's going to want to contact The Dude. I told her that it has the effect of erasing any progress we make, but that I can't make up her mind for her. She acknowledged that it's all or nothing if she commits. I'm sure we've got some bumpy times ahead.

here is my advice -

this is a delicate situation when you are starting to get some bite and there is hope of a R. She is high on the fence and balancing delicately.

Get her to agree to a phone consultation with Harleys. You dont need a counselor at this point - you DO need a marriage coach to pull this through.

Its not simple program and the road is narrow.

Another thing to remember Zen.

This forum is for YOU rite now!

Keep the ball rolling on the legal front. I've seen waywards on these boards appear receptive and then go right back to their wayward ways.

But you have an opening to hopefully build on. It also sounds like you are a thinking BH, which is great. Your McQueen/Ghandi thing is great.

Keep following that. But remember that at a time of peace you prepare for war.

Tell her about MB, but not the discussion forum. Keep that to yourself. She could attempt to use the posts against you later in court (trust me, I fought that battle).

Just keep one eye open and don't stop snooping.

Remember that the addiction is strong.

Man oh man what a night. We stayed up until about 2:00 talking. Just cuddled up with the kids until their bedtime and it was beautiful to see her soaking them in.

Then a glass of wine and light conversation. It was really nice, while occasionally diving into some very deep water. It got more serious as the night went on, but we kept managing to bring it back to a lighter note. This is the most talking she has done by far in this crisis. I've finally gotten over my bewilderment and disbelief about her disillusionment with the marriage. She said she was using the affair to end the marriage. Ugh. She is pretty damn disillusioned. She acknowledged that this guy is not her type and she just found someone very different from me to make it easier on herself. She still has feelings for me, and commented several times that I am looking good, so at least there's that. Buuuut, people say that about their ex too! We talked about our bottom line coping skills - Mine is to tow the line, hers is to run. Talked a lot about her being an attractive girl and zillions of men hitting on her at bars. She stated that she's always been very clear about her boundaries. I believe her in this, and I think that was fine as long as I was meeting her needs. We will need to have some very clear boundaries in the future. I tried to express that either of us could be with any number of people out there and it'd be another life and when things are this awful, that's awfully appealing. But this is the life we have. This is everything I've ever wanted, and it'd be just as hard with anyone else. I think the sincere apologies from me are going a really long way here. It's tough to see your own faults when you're hurting like this, but it is wonderful to express your regret and sorrow to the person you've hurt, and to see them start to accept it. This is how real forgiveness starts. Her disillusionment with marriage in general is daunting. All I can think to do is to keep on this path and fill up her love bank until her doubts are lessened. She still seems skeptical about the self help world, and I do not have a commitment to NC or reconciliation. She's agreeing to NC while at home. Kind of half-a*sed, I know. I think you're right - keep preparing for the worst. I will keep pushing for the MB methods. That is a condition for me.

OK, progress report and advice sought: Wife spent the last two nights here, in our bed. Pleasant and some good progress with connecting and delving into some issues. She agreed not to contact the Dude while here, but has not agreed to NC. This is pushing the boundaries I set out and making me uncomfortable but I've felt that a little leeway was OK, given her willingness to talk.

We have a date planned for this evening. She's still quite detached and out of love for me which is really hard. Trying to maintain the Steve McGandhi stoicism. I know this is the long uphill battle - demonstrating that changes are real and steadily filling her love bank.

Buuuuuuuuuut, The Dude is still not out of the picture. I'm thinking of waiting a couple more days before I press it a little. I would like to reinforce that she can't stay here while she's still involved with the guy, but the current good vibes are nice as well.

What do ya'll suggest?

Give her the weekend and Sunday night, lay it out: We cannot continue if you ever see him/contact him. You need to make a choice. Let me know when you're done with him, and I'll be willing to talk again. Otherwise, you're just letting her cake-eat. She'll never decide that way. And you'll have given her a great Plan A sendoff to remember you by.

Zen

Your post sounds like our "weekend of reconciliation". Be careful. Control your anger/emotions. Don't be clingy/needy.

I agree with Cat!

That sounds perfect. I'll come back to the No Cake-Eating talk after a pleasant weekend. Must up the McGandhi action. Be The Man.

OK, more advice sought: We've got a date set for tonight. WW just called and said she got called into work until 10:00, so we'll have to start our evening later. I have no reason to believe this is really what's going on, although it might be true. Before D-day she used her work schedule to smoke screen the affair. There has been no NC agreement, or even a reconciliation agreement yet. Do I just let it lie and keep with the pleasant weekend, or do I ask her to reassure me that this is really what's going on... I know if we're in recovery, this is exactly what I will need, but we aren't even there yet. The intent was to wait until Sunday evening to reiterate the boundaries.

Can you go to her work to surprise her with a bouquet of flowers? (or not...*sigh*)

Ha, I did that last weekend thinking The Dude would be there.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

I'm writing another letter to the Dude. I'll submit for critique.


Dude,

I haven't heard from you and thought I'd write again. (Wife) has been staying with me for the last few days and it's been a very good time for our family and our marriage. The kids are truly enjoying their parents together as it should be. I think we've both slept better than we have for weeks.

(Wife) has talked about you and her intentions with you. It's been good to hear her side of this. I'm sure you understand that this relationship has no future. You are involved in a very unhealthy affair, and she is only with you because you adore her and have shot so far over your mark. I'm sure it's very exciting for you to be with a woman like her. She's incredibly smart and beautiful and fun and knows more about many things than any woman you've met. She's also way out of your league, and it's time you face that. She's a mother of three amazing children and has given so much to this family, that she will never be able to give much to you. If her marriage was over, you would be able to enter into a healthy relationship instead of helping to destroy a family. But then she wouldn't give you the time of day if she was single. The marriage isn't over, but it's too appealing to be with a woman so far out of your atmosphere. I understand.

I suggest you end the affair because it's only going to get worse as you come to understand your insignificance in this situation. Why keep dragging it on when you know it's doomed? I would still very much like to meet with you. Please call me at 555-555-5555.

-Steve McGandhi

Zen,

OM/WW don't have concentration as long as your letter: try this shorter version...

OM,

My wife and I have made success in discussing our marriage.

Stay well away.

ZenWolf

But direct contact would probably be the most appropriate form of contact.

Ha!

My wife said she read the last one. Said she was on his computer and saw it. She has pretty much expressed that she's using him, but cares a lot about him too. I'm trying to build on the USING aspect.

Sorry,

When did she get that message?

I like this letter. I have met OM in the past....he's been to my house.

Putting a face to a name may be best for you. Remember....take a buddy!

I would say what Imagine wrote....no more no less.

This would have been early last week.

I'm a tad puzzled here: Are you saying that you've already sent a message that you are composing or the message that I suggested.

Please explain what you mean about she is "using" OM.

I sent a simplified version of mine.

I had sent him a letter last week too.

She said she was using him to end the marriage - crazy and scary. I dunno, this might be babble. Why hasn't she ended it with me or him? Delicious cake!

OK. I think that she was fed up with you and was looking for an exit affair.

Meet her EN's. Totally embarrass OM. If you need to construct a billboard outside his premises, do it.

Don't discuss OM with WW.


Please read in the articles - why women leave men.

And don't discuss WW with OM except to say:

Keep your freakin' hands of MY WIFE!

Wow!!! Don't let this one go....she's a real keeper!!!

She is a keeper. She has been incredibly giving in our relationship and I've been selfish. She got tired of giving. Yeah, I know, terrible way to deal with it, but that's what it is.

Date night turned into MASSIVE fight. Kind of liberating for me actually. Feeling like it's doomed though. I'll stick with the plan but I feel like my resolve is fading.

I dunno, we never have drag out fights like this. It usually ends up with me shutting down, so maybe this is a good thing. Maybe I've drawn her back out of withdrawal and into conflict. Not to many LBs during the fight, mostly me saying, 'OK, I've been a controlling jerk, you did a horribly destructive thing. We both hurt each other, so let's fix it.' Her saying 'you always make me into the bad guy'. Me saying 'I'm accepting that I contributed to this, I'm saying I'm sorry, I'm saying I'm the bad guy too. I just don't want to end the marriage, and you do. It's your decision. If you want to go, go, but stop dragging me along through this affair.'

This morning we're back to being nice, even recapped a few things from the fight. She says I'll always be her best friend. Aaaaah.

Well, I'll keep going, but my taker is knocking pretty loudly right now.

Very pleasant day. Almost like nothing is going on on the surface. I'm trying to do lots of little LB deposits and reminders of good things between us. Plan A is still going strong, but who knows...

More advice please:

WW has been sleeping here this weekend under a somewhat reconciliatory direction, and also to spend time with her kids. Tomorrow I would like to revisit the boundary I set forth where she can't sleep here while still involved with the other man. I've fudged this already, and don't think it really got me anywhere. But I will find out more tomorrow. I think I will tell her that she can visit the kids anytime, but will need to find other living arrangements until she agrees to NC, or decides to leave the marriage.

Does this sound like a good place to be? I think I will start seeking a legal separation if she resists this suggestion.

Check Plan A.

1. Expose adultery.

2. Find out what her EN's are. Meet her EN's. Do not LB. Meeting with OM is her choice. So far she is not happy with your performance. She is back for her kids. Your taker has, indeed, got to back up.

Did you read the article - why women leave men.

OK, I feel like I'm getting contradictory advice. Several posts back, it was all about breaking up the affair. Part of this effort was to express to her that it's not OK to stay in our house while she's sleeping with another man. This is somewhat different than the Plan A advice in 'Surviving an Affair' but kind of made sense to me. It puts more pressure on the affair, although can backfire as it drives her into his arms.

Doing a very good job at Plan A so far I think. Exposure has been pretty much complete, and has been successful. It's made her feel she has no one to talk to, and I'm trying to make that person me. She's starting to reach out to some of our friends who are very supportive of us as a family and with whom she's been very close-lipped. Trying to uphold her and make her feel safe, trying to be very positive without being needy. I've lost a ton of weight and am dressing in clothes I know she likes, keeping the house spotless, engaging in interesting and humorous conversation, concentrating on some of the great parts of our life together, being patient and loving with the kids, making the home environment very inviting.

What I'm concerned about is this cake-eating aspect. She's getting the best of both worlds. Do I actively try to stop this or just try to out-compete the OM? I feel like this is back to doormat status. Opinions welcome!

There are vets and enthusiasts. Read "Surviving an Affair" for accurate advice.

Contact Jen or Steve from this Marriage builders site for professional advice.

Well it seems that I'm in the 'Surviving the Affair' Plan A for now then. Had a really nice time with her last night. She's now been at home for 5 days with little chance of seeing the Dude. I don't have access to her email and phone yet, so there is almost certainly contact. I feel like the friendship we share is being rekindled somewhat, I just hope that can lead to romantic feelings eventually. It's pretty tough when I just want to love and hold her, but it's just not an option at the moment.

Anyone else want to weigh in on this? I'm still feeling like a doormat.

Oh and I did read the articles 'Why Woman Leave Men'. Yes, I think this is exactly it. I just put a lot of things before her under the guise of creating a future for us and the kids. It had the effect of making her feel shut out. We've had some good talks about this. She's had this resentment growing for so long that it's hard for her to accept my words at this point. I can only just keep moving forward and hope she begins to see the change.

Listen a lot. Time now for you to learn the techniques of meeting her needs.

You and I both have to learn how to put away aggression and cherish our loved one.

MB has helped me a stack. And I'm here by fluke.

Checking through you other thread, I cant majorly fault it. You have got the Carrot and stick concept quite clearly. Your residence is common to you both and there should be no reason that any of that property should entertain OM.

If WW takes a phone and goes outside to speak, that you cannot stop. The point is that you want her to make the decision herself to stop defaulting.

Yep, building a slow interaction IS a good thing. This may suddenly change the relationship for the better.

Sigh. Emailing back and forth today about dinner ideas. Chicken pozole with marinated red onions and guacamole and sangria. This is what we first connected with in our dating days. Makes me extremely happy and nostalgic. Trying to guard my feelings.

Thanks for the input, Imagine. Concentrate on meeting her EN, and buckle up for the inevitable roller coaster ahead.

[censored]. WW just called and canceled dinner plans to go talk to her brother. The lack of regard for my feelings is utterly brutal. This is just too much.

Alright, I made the dinner anyway, and it was delicious. The kids ate a ton of guacamole. Feeling a little more centered and back to Steve McGandhi. I'm prepared for whatever WW has to say tonight, even if it's another 'the marriage is over' talk.

A couple glasses of sangria is helping me with my courage, admittedly. It's nice to face this stuff without a lot of anxiety because i think that tends to spoil your ability to remain peaceful and confident in the face of a very difficult situation. Plan A is as much about facing life moving forward, making the correct changes to my behavior and if that causes the WW to come back around, then good. Buuuuut, it's not expected or relied on because I have no control of her feelings and coping skills.

Feels good to face problems with a sense of peace in my belly. And posole, guacamole and sangria.

Look, you may win or not, but this part of getting better changes you to become a better husband.

Another thing about whether she discusses divorce or not is immaterial. Leave the subject alone. The rule around here is the BS talks reconciliation, your lawyer talks divorce.

Control of her feelings is how you meet her emotional needs. You may only see the effect of your efforts much later.

WW got home at about 9:00. Don't think there was an OM visit in there, even voluntarily calling as she got to her brother's and left. There's been more effort on her part to be accountable which is nice. The really tough thing for me is her apparent lack of feeling for me. Still, I like the direction this is going so far. She ate the meal I had prepared and kept saying it was excellent. At least we share this!

We talked a little about a couple we know who are on the brink of divorce. He cheated for a second time last fall and she's done. My wife has been his close confidante during this, which has driven me crazy because I think the two feed off each other. She commented that his wife is giving him nothing and the guilt is destroying him. She said, at least you are willing to see my side of this. So, I think that's a good recognition.

It's been a week since our last talk about the direction this is going. I would very much like to talk about it more, but don't want to rock the boat. Any suggestions? Just keep plugging away at Plan A?

Imagine, can you tell me about your situation? Do you have a thread?

Your W needs to stay away from him!!

As for her having "no feelings" rite now.....actions speak the loudest....feelings come back.

A wise person once told me.....dont take the temperature of your M/R.....no boat rocking is about rite IMHO. When she is ready..she will let you know.

Yeah, I wish this relationship wasn't there. My wife didn't know he had cheated again until I told her last night! I've talked to his wife a few times, so I have her side of the story. Apparently this guy came onto my wife really hard awhile back. I confronted him about it and pointed out that this is what got him where he is right now. I'm not worried about my wife establishing a romantic relationship with him, I just wish she recognized the unhealthy nature of it. I'm not in a place to demand too much right now, so there is an element of just letting this play out. She's a smart girl and if she chooses to start getting through this in a healthy way, hopefully we can discuss some boundaries around relationships with others.

OK, I'll try not to rock the boat. There are no assurances right now anyway. Thanks for the advice.

I want to rock the boat!!!!! No word all afternoon... Questions about dinner tonight not responded to. Pick up the kids from preschool, come home... waiting waiting waiting. No word. Order a pizza, we eat alone. Just got a text saying she's at a happy hour with her coworkers after a product launch at work. Not a single mention of this all day, even when I asked her to pick up the kids because I was going to work late.

Who knows if the story is true, it's just the utter selfishness is so hard to take. I know she's just trying to take her independence after years of kids and work and drudgery and doing things my way. It doesn't make it any easier to deal with. We both tried very hard to pull our weight as parents, and it just seems like she doesn't care right now, all the while rationalizing it all with work. This cold sefishness is just so hard to take.

I'll keep my cool. Friendly and smiling! That's me! I just want this to end.

Can someone tell me the difference between Plan A and doormat?

The doormat does not expose and financially limit her activities.

To answer your earlier question about my thread: I have never been cheated upon by my wife. Been here since 2007. I will write a comprehensive thread a little later.

Want some advice on the Plan A timeline. I gave myself 2 months from D-day to not make any decisions and to just stick with Plan A. I told myself that this would be a day to re-evaluate. If progress is being made, then I can extend the date another couple months if needed. Dr. Harley recommends up to 6 months for Plan A. I just don't think I can hang in there that long. Can anyone else weigh in on the length of time? I've heard some suggest much shorter, and suggest that there are differences between men and women. I know I need to recognize that she is very disillusioned and will need to see some real change before she committs to anything, so I know there is no magic formula. What are some of the lengths of time people out there have given their Plan A?

This first month has absolutely flown by. I've never experienced a time warp like this, even during my kids' infancy.

Time.....great question!

Use your plan A time to
1. Be the best Zen you can!! Dad, husband, friend.
2. Journal journal journal!!! You are extending your best foot forward.....like you said above SHE is being selfish! Don't worry about her rite now focus on the kids.

When you have reached your personal time limit look over what your journal/intel says....then decide.

Plan B/D next??


Hope this helps....

Oh I think I'll go with Plan B next, unless something horrible happens before then. Not like it can get much more horrible than it is now though.

Where did all the other advice givers go? Did I fall off the map somewhere? Or is it just that I'm in the middle of the wait and see period and there's not much advice except to stick with Plan A?

I'd really like to hear MelodyLane's take on the living situation. This week has seemed to be pretty good, but she seems to be growing distant again which seems related to contact with The Dude. I want to reiterate that our house and our bed is for US as a married couple, and there is no room for another man. I dunno, maybe I'll just see how this evening goes. It's strange how you can see them descending into the fog.

She is skipping dinner with you and the family to see her brother. She is not calling and going out to the bar with "workmates".

Sorry, but I think she is still seeing the OM.

Oh I'm under no illusions there, believe me. She hasn't committed to anything which is to say, she's still involved in one way or another. I'm just kinda not sure where to go next. Reiterate boundaries or don't rock the boat?

You need to stay in Plan A, and rock the boat. There is no way she should be heading out anywhere and leaving you with the kids.

Don't make it easy for her to disrespect you and the family.

zen, if you go Plan B, how will that occur? Who will live where? How will you get her out if you stay there (and I sure hope you're planning on staying there with the kids - do NOT leave the kids)?

ETA, don't want you to think I'm telling you to go Plan B. Just that, if you have to do legal things, it's best to be aware of them ahead of time.

OK, thinking about a note to this effect:

Wife, it's been a week since we last discussed boundaries and progress in our marriage. My understanding is that you are staying here to work on our marriage and to be with your children. You told me that you would not contact The Dude while here. I think you know where I stand on our marriage, but I want to reiterate that I cannot continue in a situation where you are sleeping in our bed, in our house, with our children, while remaining in an affair with another man.

I appreciate the love and friendship that exists between us and the efforts you've made to maintain it. I've had some very nice times with you and it's beautiful to see you with the children.

I do not want to create a dynamic where you feel forced to lie about your affair with the Dude. I will take the fact that you have not told me of any termination of the affair that it is still in progress. I will not live in an arrangement where you are living with me, but involved with another man. Please tell me what your plans are.

My idea for Plan B is that I will stay in the house with the children. I will not keep her from seeing the children in a place that I agree to. We will only share childcare expenses and some credit card debt. All other financial connections will be terminated. I will ask my brother to act as an intermediary for communication related to practical matters and children only. If there is a desire to commit to a reconciliation plan, then I will talk.

I will pursue a legal separation to give this request some teeth.

Plan A is still the current MO and I have another month before I will consider Plan B.

How does that sound?

Aaaaaah, 3:15 in the morning and no sign of the wife. This feels familiar. I will be asking her to proove that she was not with OM tonight or to stay elsewhere. I won't live like this.

I would just ask her to stay elsewhere. I'm sure she was with the OM, but even if she wasn't, she is not being respectful to you and her family. Let her move out to carry on her affair.

I still have not heard from wife as of this morning at 9:00. I am going to ask her to move out. I can't keep doing this. Is this when Plan B goes into effect or do I stick with my goal of withholding a decision until March 15th? I can't see maitaining this level of self control in Plan A for another month in the face of this much disrespect and abuse. I suppose I'll wait until I hear from her to see where she's at.

Help me help me help me.

Lots of people do Plan A's when they're not living together. All it means is building up this great image of you. You look good, you smell good, you fix things, you care about her, you take care of yourself (so you're not just sitting around waiting for her crumbs), and you DO get on with your life. If she's not around to go to the zoo with you and kids...that's her loss not yours. See how it works? Seeing you get on without her will probably be the strongest possible impetus to make her question her decision. I truly think half or most of the appeal of the affair is the ego boost it gives the WS, knowing you're desired by two people. Once she sees you able to cope without her, she'll be going 'wait, what?'

I think you make a very good point about the ego boost. She is very brazen and convinced of her desirability right now. In fact, it seems like physical attraction has really been a focus for her lately. I've done a very good job of whipping myself into shape and looking my best, and she has noticed. She doesn't really reach out to me, but she is yet to stop me when I rub her back in bed or touch her leg, or hug her.

OK. I'll hold off on Plan B a little longer. I will start packing her things to help get the message across. I am asking her to leave.

Hey man this is truly rough. Do you wonder how her first husband coped with all of this when you were there.

Have you at all contacted OM and told him that you are determined to save your marriage.

I know I'm supposed to get reviews here first, but I'm tired of inaction. This is the email I just sent her:

I am done. I’m not going to continue to facilitate your affair and you disrespect and abuse. I’m not going to contribute to your ego and your inability to choose between two men. You’re my wife. I am not going to compete for you, because you already know my qualities and you know I am the man for you. If you can’t face the guilt for what has happened, if you can’t reengage your friends, if you are only willing to hold onto your anger and resentment, then I think I’ve done all I can do to convince you to come back. I know that I have screwed things up too, but I’m willing to do something about it.

I’m moving on with my life. I want you to stay elsewhere, starting tonight. I will begin packing your things, and you can come by and get whatever else you need. My life is now about me and our children. I will stop at nothing to protect them from the pain of this situation. I will no longer lie to them.

If you’d like to discuss this, let me know. Otherwise, please stop by to gather your things today.

Good on you, Zen. Have her stuff in trash bags and ready for her to just grab.

The disrespect must end and it's good to see a BH stand up for himself.

Go talk to a lawyer and secure your rights. File for abandonment.

Take aggressive action.

I err on the side of going to Plan B and cutting her out.

I hope this works for you! I'll pray for you guys!

Well. She came home and saw her bags packed. I told I would not continue in this fashion. I told her that I am her husband and I will not just let this continue. You stay or you go. Decide.

She just called the dude up in front of me and told him she won't be seeing him again.

She agreed to use 'Surviving the Affair' as the method of recovery.

Dear lord the roller coaster is too much. I'm elated and scared and nervous and guarded. NC letter is the first step. Transparency and radical honesty are next. I'm going to try to do this by the book.

Thank you Lord for your mercy!

May he grant you strength to endure the rollercoaster.

Had another gut-wrenching talk. She really feels very little for me other than friendship. It's VERY hard to take. I feel like I'm having to convince her to do this. Is this normal?

Normal, normal, normal.

Stick to your boundaries. You are making headway. Like BobPure says, "It's a marathon, not a sprint."

Well she did make the decision to choose you over other guy.

While she is in withdrawal do not expect anything amazing from her.

I've had some crazy days over the last month, but yesterday might just take the cake.

We put the kids to bed and opened a bottle of wine. Sat in bed and talked and watched some TV. Soon, we were talking about the big issues again. It started out light but got heavier and heavier. We kept drinking on top of it (A little background: I was a total non-drinker until this all started. I thought by losing this hang-up it would be something we could occasionally share - slippery slope, I know, but there has been some good catharsis through this as well). Soon we're starting to uncover some very heavy stuff about our childhood, etc. The conversation took the strangest twist. WW starts telling me she thinks I should sleep with someone else, basically so we're even. I'm trying to listen, and of course the caveman in me is intrigued by this idea, but I basically keep saying that this most certainly will not help our marriage. Somewhere in there, I sprout this bloody nose! I haven't had a bloody nose since I was a kid! I kept telling WW that I'm listening and I want her to keep going with this idea, but that I think it just results in one more thing between us that keeps us apart, and I just want to work on our marriage. We're pretty toasted at this point. I'm getting pretty emotional. She goes out on the deck and smokes a cig (habit she picks up under heavy stress). I start balling and the nose starts bleeding for real. Not a pretty sight! I finally get ahold of myself, cleaning up the blood and she comes in and says, you're being the same old you with your black and white absolutes, starts throwing the rest of her things in the bags I already packed early in the day. I start begging her to stop, telling her that I'm still listening, not really knowing what I did to drive her off. She left. Then she texts me a copy of a note that I sent her 6 months ago when I was on a business trip about how much I loved, admired and relied on her. That was it.

So. This all points to one thing in my mind. She keeps telling me this is about marriage being dead. That's the reason for the affair. This is about her inability to face the guilt for what she's doing. Seeing me broken and literally bleeding sent her over the edge. I didn’t mean to bleed for goodness sake. Shouldn’t have been drinking so much. Oh well.

I woke up with a strange clarity this morning. I'm going to begin Plan B, with some very serious reservations that this can be fixed. Plan B will let me move on at least.

She called and apologized profusely and said she wants to be here.

I feel drained, yet glad, I guess. I think I just need to reiterate my boundaries and she can either live within them, or move on.

Happy birthday to me.

WOW. Great proof you never do anything when you have been drinking...

Today is your birthday? Happy Birthday!

So I'm confused. She said she wants to come back but you want to do Plan B? Because she left? Please explain your thinking.

ETA: Oops, never mind, now I get it.

BTW, the thing about her wanting you to 'try it' too - that's about her guilt, her wanting you to not be able to hold it over her head for forever. Not about friendships, etc. - about self-preservation.

I'm reading a really good book that I think may help in y'all's sitch. It's called Healing the Shame That Binds You. It makes a lot of things make so much more sense, like the stuff above.

Tomorrow is my birthday, but celebrating today. WW said she wants to be there (at birthday party) with me this morning, despite this craziness. This is a pretty big step because everybody knows the situation. Nobody has been too harsh on her... well except one of her best friends who blew the whistle on her.

She emailed and said her 'sleep with someone else so we're even' idea was terrible.

I just have this sinking feeling that she's so damaged and screwed up that we can't get past this. Still, I think if she can confront this stuff now, it means she's actually worked through something in her life instead of running away per usual.

So daunting. And yes, drinking while delving into those kinda deep waters... maybe not such a good idea.

This even up story by your sleeping out is an old method of dropping your standard. Don't do it! Show her love.

Oh believe me, I see that leading nowhere good. I have pretty strict standards about sex, even if I wasn't married. I think it'd be just one more thing to come between us.

Excited and nervous about the birthday outing tonight. She will be facing the music with all our friends for the first time. I'm so scared for her. I have NO IDEA what she's going to be like in this. She said she's freaked out but ready. I'm going to have fun, whatever the cost.

Zen, you know I'm on your side, right? But a WS facing the music to friends and family...that is big, man. We are all shame-based to an extent. But this is huge. I know this is your day, but this is your chance to take the high road and show her why she married you in the first place, ya know?

Have fun!

Had an amazing night. One of the best birthdays in memory. I think it's made all the more bittersweet because of the intense ups and downs lately, but last night was an intense up. Friends and family embraced her and she soaked it in all night. We have great friends. I guess my brother's GF gave her a hard time, which is regrettable, but she seems to have handled it well. Stayed up WAAAAY too late and ended the evening with some wonderful hanky panky.

This morning she's been very affectionate and warm. I've missed this so much. It's a little scary because there is this 900 lb. gorilla in the room with us, but I can see how this will get better and better and all the hurt will fade into the past if we keep making each other feel loved.

Cross your fingers, pray, hail Mary.

Zen, have you learned your lesson about drinking???

Look, I'm 34 years old and I've been drinking for all of a month. There were a lot of free drinks headed my way last night, but I managed to keep it at a modest level. Really fun and not too much meloncholy creeping in. I think it's fun for her to finally see me cut loose and just relax and enjoy myself. I've always been VERY contained and sober and judgemental and this is one of the BIG issues between us.

I would just point out what drinking got you earlier in the week. Drinking in a highly emotionally volatile environment is a huge mistake.....as you saw yourself. You need your wits about you!

The reason she wants you to RELAX [and stop being "judgemental" :RollieEyes:] is because she is doing something she does not want to be judged FOR. Hers is the refrain of an infidel who wants others to lower their standards to accommodate her bad behavior instead of raising her own standards. just keep that in mind.

I completely agree that trying to do serious marriage work while drinking is not wise. But I will say that cutting loose together is a fantastic way to enjoy each other's company - something that has been missing for a really long time with us. So was cuddling in bed this morning.

The standard around infidelity is not lowered for me in any way. It's the most traumatic experience of my life, bar none. I certainly have a different view of its causes and my ability to cope with it though.

Be careful, my friend.

I'm glad you had such a good birthday! And I'm glad your W was welcomed back; IMO, your family's doing that is akin to helping you with a great Plan A - gives her a great reason to want to stay with you.

Any good presents?

My wife gave me a nice set of Japanese bonsai tools and another friend gave me some good quality Kentucky bourbon which is going to sit on the top shelf for awhile.

Day 3. There have been some false starts, but this is feeling like the real deal. WW is very affectionate, very pleasant to be around. Not defensive. I was worried I'd be confronted with an emotional wall for awhile. Not seeing the strong signs of withdrawal yet. We had dinner and back yard smores session with my brother and his long time girlfriend last night. I suspect that my wife is very relieved to be treated well by the people she loves and respects, so maybe the depression hasn't hit yet. She's wearing her wedding ring again, fell asleep in my arms last night. It's all very wonderful and scary. Such a stark contrast to the extreme stress of the last month, that I can't help being guardedly hopeful. My heart needs a break, yet I know I need to be prepared for the worst. She asked me how I was doing last night. I told her scared and happy. Asked her, and she said, "good," with a gentle smile. Trepidation!!!

I think I'll get going on the 'Surviving the Affair' methods in earnest this week. I don’t want to push, but I know we need some guidance through this. Thanks so much for your support everyone. First thing is the NC letter.

Just talked to a friend who knows the OM. She said OM told my wife to [censored] off. Might explain why she came back after the night of the tears and 'stigmata' nose bleed. Not knowing the whole story, even though she had called him up that day and cut it off, when things got to be too much for her, she took off for his house. He tells her to go to hell, so the next day she calls to reconcile with me. I've kind of thought that the only way she's going to come back to me is if she gets dumped by him, which is why I was concentrating on interfering with the affair. There's a difference between knowing this, and experiencing this. Being the second choice is pretty hard to take. Oh well. Things can't really get any worse than they have already been. One more hill on the roller coaster. I do feel more resolved to be very firm with my boundaries.

The way she's been acting now, so much softer and more affectionate totally jives with that story too. I think the fog lifts a bit easier that way, so there's a little silver lining. I've also had a really tough time with her assertion that our marriage was dead, because it was a very good marriage in most regards to me. Being so willing to be loving toward me makes me feel like those assertions were pretty fog related, which is what her friend who knows OM and blew the whistle has been telling me all along. I think that's better than the 'exit affair'. This is not to say that the issues that lead to her disillusionment weren’t real, just that she may not have been trying to end the marriage. Who knows. She may not ever say.

Well, you're now in new territory.

The vets can help you through recovery.

Keep your guard up and expect the worst for the short term. Just as you need to show her you've changed, you need to see change from her and she must understand that she just put you through the most terribly painful thing a spouse can go through short of the death of a child.

Yeah, I just went through a journaling exercise to kind of feel my way through the next step. I will have a progress report talk with her tonight, and assert these boundaries:

We follow the MB principles to a T. Treat it as the bible.

NC letter, MB style

Access to email and phone. Complete openness.

Complete honesty with each other. Tell me any time contact is made.

Filter everything we do through the question of how it makes the other feel. Selfishness got us here, time to be givers.

Emotional needs questionnaire.

I know there's a lot more to it, but I think this will be a good way to go into the next week. Suggestions? Comments?

Holy !@$%%^!!!**!!!

I sent the OM a final note to stay away from my family.

Wife just calls me, late for dinner: "I can't believe you wrote him again! He's a human being! I went over to drop off his keys, which everyone has told me to do. I was trying to do the right thing..."

I'm so angry I can barely think.

Ok. The plan is that she must send him the final NC note. A note that you also approve.

Zen,

I think you are just getting started. The roller coaster has not yet really hit the high point yet and the steep fall is yet to come.

Have you ever had a girl that really fell for you and was real clingy? What do you think your actions are doing to her?

And I am not necessarily talking about the letter to the OM, but at this point in time a letter is questionable I think.

Oh dear god. I cannot believe the self-control I'm supposed to exert in this. It is inhuman. What I am going through is beyond the limits of anyone. ANYTHING I do is justified at this point, including going down to the OM's house and breaking his legs. Buuuuuuut, I'm civilized. I want to save my marriage with this person who treats me like this.

I know this is just the fog. I'm just angry that she spent all day at work thinking about HIM, and how bad she feels for HIM, and then skips dinner with me and our children again to go drop off his keys and have 'closure'. And then she calls and gets angry with me "I was just trying to do the right thing..." Even implied that I screwed everything up. It's too much?!

I am not too clingy. I've done nothing but F*cking endure and endure and stay calm and cool and thoughtful.

I know the OM is hurt. I know it sucks for him. But I don't CARE!!!! I didn't hurt him? They hurt each other.

For her to do this in the face of the tremendous ground we made over the last couple days is so so hard to take.

OK. I'll calm down. I'm sure by the time she walks in drunk at 3:00 in the morning, I'll be cool as a cucumber again. I'll keep trying Plan A. If she walks out the door tonight, I'm going immediatly to Plan B tomorrow. My ability to keep doing this is flagging severely.

Wife just referred to MB book as a 'cult book' in a text. Oh boy. I guess we're a loooooooong way from where I thought we were.

So do I pursue these boundaries now? I don't see anything wrong with that but lord knows my brain is shot:

We follow the MB principles to a T. Treat it as the bible.

NC letter, MB style

Access to email and phone. Complete openness.

Complete honesty with each other. Tell me any time contact is made.

Filter everything we do through the question of how it makes the other feel. Selfishness got us here, time to be givers.

Emotional needs questionnaire.

OK, she came home drunk at 10:30 and flipped OUT. She's furious that I wrote another note to the Dude. She just went to his house to drop off keys. I told her that she would have killed the other person if the shoe was on the other foot. She said, "Yeah but that's me!!! But this is you being a controlling testosterone alpha male. (does this make any sense? Saying yes, if she did it, it'd be OK, but not me?!!) It must be nice being so pious and right all the time!!!! I'm always the A*shole!!!" She starts blaming me again for everything: I'm a controlling a*shole.

All our friends keep saying she's crazy and I keep defending her saying that this is typical affair behavior from what I've read. If I hadn't read this stuff, I would have thought she was crazy. Doesn't help that she's totally drunk. And driving around.

Starting to just get numb. I'm so tired.

Take it as the ramblings of a woman who is confused.

You guys really need to avoid alcohol right now. It's a bad idea.

Keep your cool. If she's drunk again, ignore her and ignore what she says.

You should certainly not let her drive in that condition. She'll kill someone.

I wasn't drinking. She got drunk after visiting the Dude, before she came home. I don't really have control of that. Same with the driving. I'm vehemently opposed to drunk driving.

She says she's moving out to her brother's apartment. Will come for the rest of her things. Said that she and the OM 'mutually' broke it off. She was implying that I screwed that up for her. It's like a script!

Amazing how quick the last few days just went down the drain. It's so excruciating. I don't think I did anything wrong by sending the Dude a final note asking him to stay away from my wife and family. I think she's still ga ga over him and she's using this as an excuse to sabotage our relationship so he'll take her back. I'm at a loss as to what to do next. Continuing Plan A sounds nauseating right now.

Hmmmmm,

Just had a phone conversation, initiated by her. Starts with, 'Please hug and kiss the kids'. Then talked about her seeing the kids... me saying she can visit them here anytime, or at her brother's or mom's. She expressing anger that I get to stay home while she has to leave. Anger that by writing the letter to the OM, I'm being controlling. Me saying that everything we've done is a choice, and I choose to stay at home. I choose to stay married. I choose to keep my family together. I choose to defend my family which is exactly what she would do in my shoes. I apologize for the mistakes of the past, but I choose to do something about it.

Then she starts softening up again and she just gets quiet and listens. This is the pattern, over and over. It's like we're repeating some dance. I thanked her for the wonderful birthday and for her efforts in reconnecting with me. Turned to a little bit of small talk about cooking (we always have that, at least). So, don’t know if she's still moved out or not, but at least we're not furious with each other. Oh wait, just said she'd pick up some groceries on her way home. Wowza.

They couldn't design a more insane roller coaster if they tried.

Zen, make sure if she comes back you make her agree to your terms FIRST - before she moves in.

And make sure that you add to that list that you will BOTH go to professional counseling for at least 6 months - or fewer, if you choose to counseling with the Harleys.

Do not let her come home without agreeing to that, ok?

OK. Just talked to a friend who talked to the OM last night. Where my wife showed up. She has been trying to keep their relationship alive even when I was in the peak of delusion about our recovery. It's been a lie.

Plan B or Plan D.

I'm so sorry. What do you think will happen if you pack her stuff and have it waiting outside for her? I've seen a couple instances here where that's all it took to wake them up. If nothing else, you'll save some dignity.

Wow Zen. Read your entire post this morning. Whew...that stinks.

You have been through he(( and back...and then back to he(( again. Sucks. You have been amazing through all of this with your resolve, your stamina, your calm as a cucumber-ness.

She's still deep in the FOG. Hang in there brother. Will post more later...D.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh! Well she came home last night and I gave her the "I'm done, there's nothing left" speech. I was already headed down the Plan B path. I told her I would still like our marriage, I would accept nothing less than NC, following the MB principles, access to phone and email, accountability for time, etc, but that I can't take another fall.

She agreed to all of them. We talked at length about the effect of the affair, what happens if we divorce... Long talk.

In the end I still feel like I'm convincing her to do this. In fact I said something to that effect, and she said she needs convincing. I told her I'd give her the pep talk everyday til I'm blue in the face. I'll walk the walk and talk the talk, but eventually she'll have to pull her own weight.

She called the Dude up in front of me and said, "I'm staying home to work on my marriage. Please don't contact me anymore."

Then erased his phone number and messages, saying she didn’t remember his number.

So I know this is all symbolic, and again, I may not be much further along than I was a couple days ago, but I guess I'm still in the fight. She said that the last few days were feeling pretty good with me and she could see how we could reconnect, and she was having no anxiety and sleeplessness, and enjoying my touch again. She said it was the letter to the Dude that sent her over the edge again. I told that our recovery can’t just hang on us getting pissed at each other occasionally, because it's GOING to happen. It's going to be hard and not fun at times.

Anyway, the roller coaster continues. Admittedly, I'm pretty weary, but, again, hopeful.

Oh, and I had already packed her things and put them in the car the night before. She took off, then wanted to come back yesterday. Ugh. Now she's back and the withdrawal depression is setting in hard. Here's goes again - setting myself up for another fall!!!

Hang in there. Does your wife have an alcohol problem? Sounds like she does. Drinking and driving indicates it to me.

You are doing fairly well. Every time there is contact for "closure", returning keys, returning the stuffed animal he gave her, to check on his well-being, blah, blah, blah, you need to contact him. Yes, she will get angry, but chances are good that he will move on to someone else's wife.

So don't trust her at all until there is verified no contact over a long period of time.

Note from my wife this morning:

"oh, honestly, I'm hating this. just hating it. "

Oh boy, withdrawal hitting HARD. I'm in for a bumpy road. I gotta be ready for her to head out the door again.

Hey, at least she is sharing that with you. IMO, that's huge.

Yep, bumpy road to be sure. Hang in there brotha!

Question for you. Not that I want you to give up your location, but what size of city do you live in? The reason I'm asking is for future possible "running in to the OM" situations.

WW and I lived in small rural towns for 15 years (I'm talking ~15k) The "bar scene" was pretty close knit and you saw the usual suspects over and over again. Your WW working in a bar is probably going to "run into" the OM here and there.

And every time she does it will be back to square #1 with regard to withdrawal.

Have you thought about moving to another city / state? I know in this economy that's a frightening thought. Just throwing that out there as I've heard it in other posts. The last thing you want it for your WW to be accidentially running in to the OM here and there. Roller-coaster....UP...down...UP...down...

I'm not sure. I feel for you my man. I consider myself lucky in that both DDays with my WW, the affairs were pretty much over. There was no fence-sitting. Oh, there was terrible ups and downs for A#1 (14 years ago) because I didn't know about OM and just kept instinctively Plan A-ing for 9 long months. Lord knows how I got through that without mb.com principles. Lucky I guess.

You are in a difficult place because your wife is still in the fog. Even if NC has been established you can expect her to break it, and soon. Hang in there. Keep posting and BE STRONG! Your children need a strong and devoted Dad. Because mom is crazy-alien-infested-fog-speaking-affair-addict right now.

Hang in there...

Don't trust that she's truly going to end contact. A real gesture would be to quit her job and send resumes out to other gyms to work at.

Keep your chin up. This must be a horrible thing to deal with. I never really experienced have a fence sitting wayward. I didn't fight or give things enough time. I commend you for hanging in there.

Just keep in mind that everything will be ok no matter the outcome. One of the greatest things a BS can come to grips with is that life will be ok without the WS and THEN actually seeing it happen.

It took a few years for me, but I'm happy with my life now and things didn't work out.

All I want to tell you is that have hope for the future, no matter what happens.

I knew from the tone of the communication today that she was headed out the door again. Sure enough, I got home, and there she goes. Projecting everything on me. She even said I was trying to use the kids against her. The audacity!?

Um, I think I'm done. I definitely had that peaceful feeling a bit today about just moving on. I think I will. Gotta go visit an attorney.

{{{Zen}}}

Be sure to tell her that you letting her have what she wants. Tell her that you are seeing an attorney, and that you can't make her part of this family if she doesn't want to be. Do not let her come back. You can no longer be Mr. Needy. If she wants you. Let her earn you. You are worth it. She thinks she is in withdrawal now. Wait till you turn your back on her. Don't put yourself and you kids through this again. When she tells you to kiss the kids for her. Tell her you don't do anything for her anymore. HARD LINE. JMHO

I just told her that I'm kind of relieved. She can take the kids for the weekend.

I am relieved. Starting to worry that I was fighting for something I'd regret winning.

I'm sure I'll feel differently in five minutes.

Zen Wolf - Single Dad. Has a ring doesn't it? I mean, I'll actually have some free time for once... I don't have to keep questioning whether or not my wife is crazy. She is! Sad for her, but I'm tired of crucifying myself over this. This is about her inability to deal with things, not what a jerk I was in our marriage. I truly believe if she couldn't make it in our marriage, she can't make it in any marriage. I've had about 4 sets of friends say that this has shaken them to the core, because they feel like if we couldn't make it, who can? All the introspection I've done has been very VERY valuable, and I can move forward in my life knowing that I faced my issues and was willing to change. I did my best. I gave it my all. I think I'm done.

See, I knew the peace wouldn't last. All the bitterness and anger is just knocking on my door!!! I'd love to vent to her. But I don't want to give her the satisfaction. What does one do with the anger?

Zen:
My advice is to be strong and unyielding each time your WW calls it off with OM. I was pretty weak there. And remember that actions speak louder than words. Oh...and waywards ALWAYS lie.

And anger is one of the stages necessary to get through this crap. It's like with "death and dying." Personally, I did everything to delay these stages since I never wanted to get to the final "acceptance" stage. I stayed in denial way too long. And I bargained way too much with WH.

But I wish I had been more angry early on. Maybe it's easier for a man. I told myself that I would wait for the real anger and hate if it ever came to D.

And D is now in progress. And I still can't vent to WH because I'm in Plan B to protect myself. There will be plenty of time -like the rest of my life -- to live in Plan FU.

WH will never be my friend.

Relentless, exhaustive exercise. Push ups, sit ups (pilaties kind with small ball under back). Light weights, a lot of repetitions. Whenever the anger or pain becomes unbearable....drop and give me 50. Walk for miles. Get a treadmill. Focus on you. "The happier you get the more she will regret"

Zen: I agree with ouch...work on YOU! Take care of yourself, look at how much you have grown, examine your own life and move forwards...

I firmly believe that you haven't ridden your last rollercoaster with your WW. Something deep down inside me says the fog will lift when she sees you are "moving on" with your life. All of the sudden she will realize that she wants what she cannot have...and the fog will lift.

How will you prepare yourself for that conversation / realization by your WW? What will you do?

Be strong my brother. Hang in there and take care of ZEN!

Zen

I was like you in the beginning. I was all over the place. It's natural. Your brain is trying to rationalize the actions/words of an insane person!

I read your "Zen single dad" post and I remember thinking the same things.

Ha, yeah, the workout plan has been in effect for awhile now. I've lost over 35lbs in about a month and a half. Skinnier than I've been since I was a sophomore in high school. There are abdominal muscles in there?!

Yeah, I dunno if we're done or not. I suppose I'll leave a little door open in the back of my mind. I still have this strong sense of relief and resolve this morning. I would not be surprised if she tried to come back either. But maybe not. Withdrawal hit her so hard yesterday that she may not be able to confront it again. I think a lot depends on whether or not the OM will take her back. I think he will. I made a bet with a friend that it will happen within a week. Either way, I'm moving on.

Really debating the Big D or legal separation. I'll have to get some opinions on that one.

I sent her my first round of proposals for splitting things up this morning. We'll see how she responds.

Zen: I understand that sense of relief and resolve. Sat night after WW gave me the LB / not looking at you / disrespectful judgement thing I was furious. That's a major LB for me and have expressed that to her in the past, but not recently. Okay, opened the 55 gallon can of whoop-a$$ that night about her LB, but in a calm, respectful manner.

Anyway, later that night I'd just had it and realized that if she wasn't willing or able to make changes, then I was okay with her walking.

Yes, it helps that I've lost some lbs, working out a lot more, dressing more stylish (WW calls me her "hottie husband") and feeling good about myself.

I think part of my fear was that I'd never find someone as good as my WW. Fear that I was a 41 year old balding, over-the-hill looser who would be destined to be alone rest of his life. As my confidence grows so does my courage with my WW. It's just like the wise old MB.com veterans predicted...take care of myself, work on ME, become a better person and no matter what happens with marriage, I will be okay!

I'm hoping for the best for YOU. It may be "congrats, I'm happy for you," or it may be "I'm sorry you headed to Plan D...take care of yourself." Either way I'm confident that YOU will be okay in the end!

That's the ticket. 35lbs! Dude, you are the lean wolf of winter. You're hungry, in control, on the prowl. No more mr. needy. I've lost about 25lbs. since Thanksgiving.

Damn...I had better step it up. Feel like I'm running third in this race...

WW and I are doing P90x and I've dropped 10 lbs...and to my amazement, there is actually a six-pack growing where my belley once was

Trading in my keg for a six pack too.

Zen since you are going plan B. A thought. Your wife thinks you are pining away for her (which you might be) If you think that she has to hit bottom, what about a little plan of your own. When she is around. Get a friend to text you. Then when you get it. Laugh a bit. Do this a couple of times. Then excuse yourself and take a call outside. Laugh again. Start her thinking. When you come back in, if she asks, tell her "its just a friend". If she takes it further by asking "male or female", tell her without anger or attitude. "Are we now keeping each other up to date on our personal life?" Then all of a sudden. During the week. ask if your wife can take the kids and babysit. You will be able to judge a lot from her response. If she asks. "It's just coffee with a friend" Then go to a movie. In a month or two ask her to take the kids for the weekend. Let her see that you are moving on. At least you will know what she thinks by her attitude. JMHO. I know this is gaslighting, but if it lets you judge where she is at, could save you a lot of wasted effort about thinking of reconciliation.

Ouch: I understand the rationale behind your suggestion. But in my eyes this is being dishonest and trying to manipulate his WW.

Think about it in this way Zen -- if this type of action causes your WW to come out of the fog and you end up working more on marriage...you will then be forced to tell her you were yanking her chain with the texts, and impression that you were "seeing someone."

And I'm willing to bet if WW does think you are "seeing someone" even though just a friend, it would justify her actions of the A. Can you see her thinking to herself, "see, he's doing it also."

Nope, i'm totally against this. Sorry Ouch. I think a solid Plan A is to prove to WW that you can improve and move on with life. Not try and make her jealous by lying about a "friend."

I agree with DNU1

Lies to cover up lies??? Our WWs are masters of that....look where it got them!!
I know if my WW asked to see MY cell bill....I have nothing to be ashamed of.

On the workout stuff.....my kids have told WW.....dad is ripped!! LOL kids.

Lordy lordy, Plan B sounds like too much energy. I'm just in Plan Move On. Really. I'm not pining, I'm pretty sure I don't want her at this point. I found out about another one night stand, and possible emotional affair other than the doozy she's involved in now.

I truly don't think my wife can face the guilt of this. I think she'll go to her grave having internalized her justifications. Who knows. I do think if the Dude truly dumped her, the fog might clear, but it's becoming irrelevant.

I talked to her parents today who mentioned that she wasn't at her brother's. She said last night that she was headed there because OM and she had broken up. She also said she had talked to him that day (about break up matters), so I'm 99% she convinced him to give it another try. This time it'll stick!!!? And who knows, it might. I'm definitely at the end of my rope.

I just need to move on. Let the last bits of love fade into the past. I don't even know her anymore. Lean mean, single Dad machine.

How did you find out? What did you find out?

Did she fess up about this stuff?

About her ending up back at the Dude's? Well, it's just the logical answer. Talked to her dad this morning who mentioned that he talked to her brother who said she was not there. Lot's of hear say.

Oh, about the other affairs? She fessed up to the one night stand when she was drunk the other night. The other I heard from a friend wh she apparently confided in months ago. This friend also mentioned her showing off her breasts at the bar. Another friend mentioned several near brawls involving my wife. Also a hot tub party where my wife just got naked. I just don't think I can live with this?!

Have you gone to alanon yet?

I'm having a disgustingly awesome time venting to her right now. She SUPER-REMORSEFUL. I'm not being mean, just detached. The reality of us splitting. Feels good and terrible.

No, I will have to think about therapy and programs. I'm sure I'll need it soon.

What you need is a safe-room or a soundproof room or something.

Don't they have rooms in Japan or something where you pay like $100 and just bust the whole room to he11?

Just a thought. You need some sort of release in all this, something safe to take your anger out on.

Maybe take up some physical thing like karate or boxing.

"I'm having a disgustingly awesome time venting to her right now. She SUPER-REMORSEFUL. I'm not being mean, just detached. The reality of us splitting. Feels good and terrible."

I'm sure she will be back. Better think about Alanon.

Zen: sorry to hear about these latest revelations (one night stand, showing her boobs, naked in hot tub...etc., etc.)

Sounds like you have reached the end of the road my friend. Be strong and be there for your kiddos. Lean, mean fightin Dad.

Must be the week of

I got the feeling last night that my WW was about to tell me some stuff that I hadn't known. And all day today I've had the horrible possibilities going through my mind...things like

- There have been more than the two affairs
- She's slept with one of my friends, a relative or a neighbor...right under my nose
- She's done sex acts with OM that she never did or would do with me (oh, I'm ready to hear this one...been preping myself for this since DDay.)
- [insert other icky stuff here]

I really hope I'm wrong, but the moon / tide phase must be effecting all these waywards...casue I'm hearing a lot of former secrets being spewed...

Waiting for the shoe to drop.

Zen, be strong. You know that you have tried at your marriage and have given it your best. And you are a stronger man because of all this. Take care, D.

You guys are mind readers. She's super apologetic and reconciliatory sounding. I think I'm going to cry and throw up. I love her but I can't keep doing this.

Dear god, give me the strength. I want what I had, but I don't know know if I want her. I swear you guys can predict the future. I have this feeling she's going to try to come back. I'm so ready to move on. I just think she's broken inside. I don't want a crippled marriage with the possibility of this happening again. I can;t do it. I deserve more than this this. I'm really starting to look at this like a drug addict. The behavior is alarmingly simple. This is one of her last emails:

"Look, I know I own this. I own all of it. this is my fault. I haven't even been meeting you half way. It is hard for me to fight for your forgiveness"

Advice?!!! I want to just welcome her and love her. I feel like a co-dependant through and through. I know that I can't.

I told her that all I can say is, "Actions speak louder than words."

She said OK.

I think I'll keep moving forward with the separation. I guess I'll know if she can do it or not. It's no longer for me.

This is her latest email.

"will you please give us one more chance?"

Zen, you have to look at her nature. She basically needs to remove any arrogance, she has to be humbled. It sounds like shes there. But the other night after you sent a letter to this guy. She got up, got drunk and slept with someone she didn't know. Do you foresee stress in reconciliation? I'm sure you do. Will there be fights? I'm sure there will. What coping mechanisms does she have? Get angry, get drunk, cheat. That is as you have said "actions speak louder then words". I would hope she would be contrite. But how long does it last?

Read what she said. "It is hard to fight for your forgiveness". This is a completely arrogant and selfish statement. Its hard because she is a narcissist. She does not want to humble herself. You said it "Actions speak louder then words" She says she owns it. But even in her admission it sounds like she is speaking from a position of authority.

Imagine if she wrote this.

My darling, first of all I want to tell you that I love you. I do. I know nothing I have done could make you believe that. I have betrayed our marriage, our family, our love. I will understand if you take this letter burn it, and spit in my face. I deserve it all. I look at myself in the mirror and get physically ill at what I have become. You have told me that "actions speak louder then words". Actions are all I have left. My words are worth nothing. If by some miracle you could just wait to close the book on our marriage, I would do everything in my power to earn your love and my place back in your heart. I can offer no excuse, because there is none. All I can say is that I will fight with all my soul to regain your trust. If you do want to divorce me, I completely understand. But even then if you would allow me to be in your life and let me prove my love, I will count myself blessed for the opportunity. Please don't leave me. I love you.

Zen,

Could this describe your wife at any point in your marriage, or could you see her ever doing this? The words aren't important. Its the meaning behind them.

Zen: Yes, her actions do speak louder than her words. If she talks the talk and does not walk the walk...well, then you know it's time for you to walk.

And even if she starts walking the walk and you decide to work on marriage, there is a chance that somewhere down the road she will lapse back in to the alien-infested-wayward that causes you so much pain.

No one is going to blame you for using your "get out of marriage free" card. She chose to have an affair. You chose to work on yourself, your family and Plan A her. No one blames you for walking away.

Do what's best for YOU! Don't think about this in terms of your WW, or even your kiddos. If you stay in this marriage for anyone but YOU, trust me my friend, you are going to regret it down the road. Look deep inside and see what you want to do.

Be strong my friend.

Zen,

Hasn't she told you the above before, only to do more things to disrespect and hurt you?

I can't believe how similar our situations are. I can only speak for myself and my case, but I had, had, to turn this over to God. As I slowly did so, over the course of months I began to understand that I had to release control of the situation.

Unfortunately for me, I think I am one of the poster children for doing Plan A for too long. I just lost my love for her. I began to see her as others did, and it wasn't what i had always thought.

I went into plan B for some time and am now in a plan B but planning D. Once I began to truly feel that I no longer wanted or needed my WW, she is starting to wake up and try, like never before.

Pull up before you get to where i am if you want to save this. One more instance of lying or trying to get back with the OM or the antics she has been pulling...Plan B. Immediately.

I think your WW is a lot like mine. She is going to have to hit rock bottom, and then you will have to decide, on your own terms, whether you want her back and under what circumstances and conditions.

I empathize with you friend.

Thanks my friends. I'm going to have to think long and hard about this one. SHe's saying all the right things. I'm just listening. Kinda detached.

Well had an interesting evening. She said all the right things. Losing everything has lifted the fog for now. Saying this was not about our marriage or me, but about her coping and innability to find happiness when things get hard. Very nice evening. Did NC letter, access to email and phone, voluntarily.

This morning the withdrawal and depression is hitting HARD. I'm trying to back off the hope again, but she's coming home now, which is signifigant. The guilt and broken heartedness is hitting her like a truck.

She's still in the right place, but this is gonna be HARD.

Roller coaster continues, I'm a rock. (A loving rock.)

Oh Oh!!! And get this?! OM called me last night! I was asleep. He called and says, "You win. I know this was wrong and I'm sorry for my part in this. I know your family and your kids are important and I just don't want you to think I'm a cold hearted jerk. I will you leave your family alone. Thank you for writing to me. I'm sorry... etc etc."

Went on for about 10 minutes. I told him thank you.

Weird, but good I guess.

Wife is coming home from work because sorrow is hitting hard. I'm glad she's coming to lean on me, but I need to stay detached some. I need her to do this work.

If he is serious, this truly is a big step in the recovery of your marriage.

That's great that he called you. I hope things work out.

Please do me a favor though. Continue to snoop. Apparently a lot of WS's will either pretend to quit and just hide it better (even by having OM call you), or else they will intend to quit but can't help themselves.

And make sure you set up the transparency, access to her passwords, etc.

I'll do some snooping, but frankly, I can tell pretty easily by her emotions where things are. I'm taking a somewhat back seat position here. I'm fully prepared to move on. I know it's VERY likely she'll slip. It'll hurt again if she falls, but she knows that's it for me. I'm surprised that it took the ACTUALITY of splitting to wake her up. She said she just hadn’t thought of so many things... like me working so hard at this, that it wasn't me who was the problem, she was headed down the road to being her father (horrible womanizer and serial cheater). What she really stood to lose...

She's experiencing the depression pretty acutely.

Here are some emails this morning. I told her to write down some of what she said last night:

"which part.

the part about me not feeling validated as a person or any self-worth and that is why I destroy everything around me?

the part where I hate myself? and all I can seem to love when in that hole is what makes me feel good and my children?

the part where I'm afraid of turning into my dad?

the part where I didn't meet you half way or appreciate the work you were doing?"

And another:

"I know, I do not expect you to argue your points anymore. I don't expect you to put up the fight anymore. I know it's all on me. and I will. but right now I just want to cry. cry for what I've done, cry for what I've become and cry for what I've lost."

It's gone from a lot of relief and sorry last night to a lot more withdrawal depression stuff. The wall has come back up a little, but that seems pretty normal from what everyone has said. I'm going to stay firm and a bit detached. Keep looking at both possibilities for my life.

She was feeling super depressed and I asked if she wanted to come home. She said yeah, that's what I need. We had lunch and she felt better. Asked a lot about the withdrawal symptoms and timeline. Made the analogy to drug addiction on her own.

Both of you getting a lot of sleep is important. I would tell you to take naps together. To re-establish physical touch will be important when you are ready. Take long walks together even if you don't say a word (in fact you shouldn't). Just being there, and letting her know that there is hope will help her.

Ugh. Oh the pain. Oh the PAIN.?

She gave me her email passwords. She went in and cleared out old emails, told me she would, I was right there. Said it was for my own good. I told her I didn't want to know, but had already imagined it all.

Well, she forgot to delete them all. Rough. Ouch. Nothing I didn't imagine, I guess. Nothing too icky, just lots of new lover stuff. Some very cold talk about me. This is all from a month ago, soon after D-Day.

Then a mention to another friend about our sex life being mediocre. Jesus, it was FANTASTIC for most of the 9+ years we were together. It was a cornerstone of our relationship in some ways. I KNOW I wasn't delusional. I know this is looking at it through the lens of the affair, but CHRIST that hurts.

Do I tell her I saw it?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently WW have to justify their operations. So they lie to there friends and lie to themselves.

Perfectly normal.

Yes tell her you saw them. And ask her the question. "Did you really mean our sex life was mediocre, or were you saying that to justify having sex with other men"? Tell her that she can't hurt you by telling you the truth. It will help you reconnect if she is honest with you.

See, I kinda asked about our sex life a couple days ago when I she had just called him to cut it off (the 5th time?). She said it was 'pretty' good. That hurt enough, so I said, well, we can work on it as we feel better, but let's leave that one alone for now. It's a little too painful for me. I know she wanted to spice things up a bit, even before affair, so there is some truth to what she says, but I also think the new relationship makes it awfully subjective.

I think I'll wait til the fog has lifted a bit for that one. I can tell from her kisses that she's not all there yet, but she's trying and I think it's genuine. She said the birthday weekend was really a good thing for her and gave her hope. It gave me a lot of hope too, so I'm glad I wasn't just a sucker on that one.

It's tough, but after the initial sting, even the emails don't hurt much. It's weird being this detached. Very peaceful. This will serve me well in the coming roller coaster.

It's weird, I'm looking forward to spending time with friends about as much as my wife. That's a good sign that I'm kinda removed.

Had a good evening and just held each other in bed all night. Pretty weird that she's thinking of another man half the time.

I'm feeling pretty peaceful this morning. Still kind of daydreaming of what being a single dad would be like. Still keeping my ducks in a row. She's doing pretty well, but we're only beginning.

Thanks for all the advice and support.

Patience Zen. Hang in there. Time will tell where your WW will head -- towards you or away from you.

We got your back.

Zen, I have a suggestion for you regarding the sex area. You could consider this a new start for the two of you, if you are indeed moving forward. I bought my husband this book years ago, and it is almost the best gift I've given him in 30 years.

It's called 52 Invitations to Grrreat Sex. It has 52 invitations, half for the man and half for the woman. You pick one you feel like doing, you set it up ahead of time with the 'ingredients' for the event; and then you give your wife the invitation to meet you at X time and Y place.

I can't think of a better way to start reconnecting, and doing one of these invitations lets you both be kind of vulnerable with each other. And funny and fun.

I'm a prideful know-it-all, and I was so reluctant to pick up self help books in the past. This experience has taught me that I should listen. And read. And listen. Thanks for the excellent suggestion. It's funny, I was very happy in our sex life for the most part. I think she was too. I will say that I am the less adventurous of the two of us, so I know I need to mix things up and try new things. I'll definitely check out the book. Helps to have the catasrophic weight loss working for me. I'm at fighting weight!

I agree that this will be a new beginning. There's going to be a bit of a THING in the room with us for awhile. There won't be that exciting beginning like we had 10 years ago. I'm up for the challenge. I hope she is too.

Remember Zen, for most women (I'm generalizing here), the affair isn't about the sex as much as it's about the emotional connection. Women give the sex to get the emotional connection.

For men it's all about the sex. We give the emotional connection to GET the sex.

When her fog lifts and you resume intimacy it will get better. Still awkward while she's in withdrawal, but it will get better as she gets farther away from last contact with OM. Going to take time. Patience. Hang in there.

Now THAT was a real kiss. We had a date last night. Went to a really cool little bar, then next door for tapas. It happened to be owned by one of our favorite chefs in town, so it was part luck, part providence. Excellent, fairly relaxed conversation and yummy food. Went to see a friend's band play. There were several other friends there including boyfriend of the whistle blower who she is very sore with. Wife's guard kinda went up a little. We had fun, dancing and spending time with friends. On the way home we got into a pretty passionate argument/fight and drove around for another two hours hashing it out. She was kinda back in the fog a bit, very resentful of others' judgment, etc. I was struggling with that feeling of wondering if I even like her anymore - the anger and betrayal reacting to her defensive stance. She being defensive and kinda flippant which drives me crazy. I know this is just defense mech, but I want a softer side of my wife right now, and told her this. Kinda just ran out of steam, came home and had some fun time in bed. Today was really relaxed with nap, good brunch and the kiddos. She started really cheering up and thanking me for the breakfast and asking how I am doing. Gave me a really sweet kiss and hinted at fun to occur after our dinner party tonight. I think she's in the right mind set. It seems when she starts thinking of others instead of being in her bubble, this is the most promising behavior. I need to keep the passions on hold as far as arguments go. Just stick with the boundaries and keep with Plan A. At least for the moment, I feel good. Rather hopeful.

Things went down after the last time she felt good. Don't relax.

Sex life should always be an all day event. A gentle hug during the day, then write on her arm something line "This beauts A--- belongs to ZenWolf". Tickle her at awkward moments. Join in the work she does. If you can't, rub her back or any other private parts.

Surprise her.

Had a pretty fun time in the bedroom last night. I think the emotional part of the equation is going to take a long time to work out. I know, I should have very low expectations at this point. Still trying to remain stoic and prepared. The withdrawal stuff is pretty annoying for the BS. Everything is still about her in many ways. Struggling with that feeling of not liking her, but remembering that I love her. Hopefully when the fog truly clears, I'll start feeling it.

Reading some more of my wife's emails. So intensely depressing. She has a dialogue with one of my dearest friends who has been one of my greatest resources through this. He wrote to her just talking about his own self-hate and depression, which apparently is pretty extreme at times. I'm just so sad. My wife is identifying with this, saying she tries to avoid the truth of how screwed up she is, but it's always there. She's still saying how me and my friends manipulated everything and it is driving her away instead of fixing things. Frankly, if she thinks that, I'd rather she just went somewhere else to experience her hate and defensive anger. Those glimpses of remorse and love and gratitude are so rare, it just angers me so much. She's still here, still trying but very depressed. I wish she would seek some help. I asked her about it this morning and she said she's going to power through. In other words, she's going to bury the problem, not deal with it, and then the kids and I get to bear the brunt of it when her unhappiness gets the better of her again in a few years. I have this deep fear that not only is she unwilling to deal with her issues, but my desire to live a positive and healthy life simply don't allow for someone with such deep-seeded issues, who is unwilling to fix them. I'm tired and depressed, and reading her thoughts to someone else only makes it worse. I always feel that depression is so self-indulgent, and I think this is partially true, partially because I've never struggled with it on more than a mild level. It would be so nice to just remove this insurmountable crap from my life. I feel like I've fought so hard, and she is only occasionally remorseful and unguarded, and it's very difficult to be around.

I know if I stand back, this is all part of the typical package, but if she's not willing to submit to the help and love out there, this will have been for nothing. I guess I'll know over the coming months or years. The unfairness, the pain of this is all too much sometimes. I'm tired of being so strong in the face of such odds. I just want to cry and feel sorry for myself and receive some kind of comfort for it. I want it to be from her, but it's just not there.

Had some relaxing cuddle time this afternoon, initiated by her. Helps a lot to ease the anxiety and depression. Oh this is gonna be an interesting time.

Is she on any anti depressants? Paxil,prozac,efixor,welbutrin,Abilify?

Is there any way to get someone else to talk to her, like family, who might help her see the benefit of getting professional help?

She has used antidepressants in the past. She also did some therapy for anxiety issues when she left her last marriage. I thought these really helped.

I have suggested these things to her, and told her that I want her to choose her tools for fixing this. I think when she's really seeing through the fog and depression, she knows she needs this. When the anger and guilt start winning out, I think she just goes to a very hopeless place and doesn't see a way out.

I think it's just my job to be a solid place to rely on, be loving when I need to, firm when I need to. I think she knows that I've reached the end of my rope with regards to the affair. Recovery is another whole ball o' wax, and I'm still trying to figure out my boundaries. I know I need to just keep moving forward. I will not let this debilitate me, and damage me. I really think the unknown is her. Can she do this?

This is a spiritual problem. Too many people go to a psychoanalysts to cure a problem. Do you know a sound Christian church nearby.

I'm sure this will sound horribly nihilistic, but we're both devout atheists. I grew up in an strict baptist/christian home, and I'm continually surprised at how similar some of those values are to my own, but I guess I don't equate morals with religion, and if anything, through this, I am seeing how our childhood effects us as adults.

It is a spiritual problem, and I don't know how she will fix it. I guarantee it won't be with God, nor would I want it to be, because I appreciate that we share the same beliefs. I do wish she would submit to help of some kind, because her pride and coping skills prevent it.

No lectures please, but I drank WAY too much last night. P*ssed her off at some point. Said everything that I FEEL, but it was too much. kept telling her to leave. I'm totally new to this and I was trying to be destructive and get attention. Dumb way to do it. I feel like such a child through this whole thing. I feel like I've been so strong and I just wanted to give into self-destruct mode for once. Something I never do. I think I'm going to go hide in a cave for awhile.

No lectures. You wont be the first!

Wife came home at lunch yesterday, which was good. She had this kind of false cheerful attitude, but frankly, I was expecting full shields because of my drunken antics the night before. I asked how we were, are we still on track? She said, "Yes, I think so."

She worked a little late which had me worried, but when I called her she was in the middle of it, and in a good mood. Came home shortly after.

Was pretty distant for most of the evening. This makes me a little worried because this seems to be an indication that she's descending into the fog again in the past. She had a lot of trouble falling asleep, was having some anxiety - she said it was worry over her job. (She's on contract at a tech company while someone was on maternity leave - she returned yesterday). I reassured her that we have back doors and we will make it through no matter what.

This morning she rolled over and ran her hand over my chest. Easily one of my favorite feelings in the entire world. Made me feel a LOT better. Asked how I was doing and I said that I thought the future looked bright. Feeling good about my life. She said, "I meant the hangover (from the night before)" Ha, oh well, good way to express calm hope. I'm trying to refrain from appearing too needy. I think it's a good sign that she's concerned about me at all - over the last month I've been treated on a less-than-human level, so this is an improvement. Still feeling some nagging anxiety this morning over her silence and detachment last night. I must continually remind myself that it's her turn to do the work, my turn to remain patient and prepared to uphold my boundaries. It gets incrementally easier it seems.

Be strong Zen. I'm still sensing fog and wishy-washy-ness from your WW.

Like your advice to me -- stay strong, work on YOU and being the best to Zen that you can be! Show her with your actions...not your words.

And it would probably be best to avoid the "liquid courage." Those angry outbursts don't help your cause any one bit. But you know that. If you need to *vent* then come here and type away...helps me to do that.

Remember, you are dealing with someone who's brain fell out of their head. She ain't right. Her mind is spinning. She's the crack-addict not knowing where to turn next. Be that pillar of strength for yourself...and she will see that and move towards you and your stability.

Be strong my friend!

I am gonna second the "no booze"!!

IF things go south.......you will be a "raging alcoholic" in about 5 mins.

I know it sux

food for thought

&**^%$%$&@@!!!!!

Yeah, fog and wishy-washiness. All the good feelings I had from her penitent talk and subsequent good times get smashed when she's defensive and angry. It just feels so unjust. She has nothing to be angry at me for? I stuck around despite her horrible actions. I just keep trying to reinforce that I'm done with the ups and downs, and she considers it a passive aggressive threat. It IS a threat. There is no passivity involved. If she screws up again, I doubt I will be around to try once again.

We got into another argument today and she's just so angry, and I keep telling her that her anger is misguided if it's toward me. I tell her I won't accept it. She finally calmed down and said she knows she doesn't really have a right to be angry with me but she's human. Says she just wants peace, but I keep fighting. Keep reminding her that I'm ready to go. I don't think I'm fighting, I just don't want it all to get brushed under the rug so I get to go through it all again in five years.

I think I need to stop with the 'I'm headed out the door if you screw up again' stuff. So now she knows. Just need to be calm and supportive. If she screws up, then I can act how I need to act. It's HARD not to have your pain addressed. Wife is not in the place to really give much yet. Apparently just being home is the big effort for her right now. I know, I know, this is normal. Blech.

I know booze are a rather prominant feature in this thread, but I'm not lying when I say that I haven't even been drunk in my entire life until about a month and half ago. I don't think she'll pull that one out on me.

Yes, I'm going to back off the drink. My inexperience with this stuff is making it harder to have boundaries. I seem to fight with her after I have too much.

Good. You need your wits about you. Plan A is not done!

And remember, if anyone leave the house, it ain't going to be YOU! If you do get to that point, please do have a conversation with an attorney about your rights. Don't abandon the home...ask her to leave until she decides to end this affair once and for all.

And be strong. Stay with the solid Plan A. It IS having an effect on her!!!

Yeah, I feel like I have a better sense of where she's at today. She takes my laying out boundaries as threats and anger. It's not intended that way, but I think I need to just take a back seat again with this. She did reiterate that she knows she isn't entitled to be angry and apologized. This helps me, because her anger and defensiveness are very hard for me to take. I need to remember that the withdrawal symptoms are going to be here for quite awhile, and I need to be cautious not to push her. Stick with the boundaries, don't constantly reiterate them!

Just made some plans for a date night on Friday. I'll lay off the sauce this time, and hopefully end the night with good feelings, not drunken emotional diarrhea of the mouth. Need to just build on the sense of comfort and not just remind her how hurt I am. Plan A will be in effect for the foreseeable future!

Z: Sounds like as you travel down this road you refine and adjust your strategies. Good for you. Sticking with your boundaries is a good thing...just remember to avoide the love busters when doing so. Be calm and patient and just state the facts about your boundaries.

She's going to get upset one minute, then ask for your forgiveness the next. Typical wayward actinos.

Date night! Great idea. And laying off the liquid courage...even better idea. We started date night about a month ago. Once a week we head out and spend about two hours alone -- our kiddos are babysitting themselves, so we limit the time we are out.

Treat date night like you would when you were dating. Open the door for her, compliments on her looks, smells...all the little things you did that won her heart. Don't overdo it...just solid Plan A. No relationship talk, just chat about stuff.

It is amazing how I have forgotten this wonderful little philosophy when interacting with my wife -- when I'm nice to her, she is nice to me in return! It's the old "in order to get power...one must give power first" theory.

Hard to follow some time when a BS is dealing with a WS, an affair, all the lies, deception, hurt and selfishness. But remember, right now you aren't disecting and examining the relationship, you are trying to get her through withdrawal. There will be time to talk about the affair and all that lead to it in the future.

Patience. I got your back Z!

Our date night last week was really nice. Very much like we were a newer couple with easy conversation. The difference was that we had this wealth of history and shared experience and knowledge to mine as we conversed. It was really fun. Of course we ended up in a long discussion/fight until 3:30 in the morning, but it was pretty great until then.

Last night was interesting. We had pledged to just go easy on the BIG stuff for awhile. I think this is important because she's only a week into NC. Her mind is going to be very influenced by her feelings of withdrawal and the lingering fog of the affair. We sat in bed chatting and watching a funny movie for awhile. Then, I started getting a little frisky and she responded, and we had some of the more relaxed and connected sex that we've had through this. We started talking after that and despite our pledge, went right into deep water again. I was reiterating some boundaries, but apologizing for not relaxing and letting her have some room. I told her that I saw this soft, penitent person a week ago, and I need to know that it was real. She kept saying that it is. I asked her to be less defensive and angry. She started by saying that I'm asking her to be someone else, that I don't like HER. I told her that I saw this gentle side last week, and throughout our marriage, so I think it's just as much a part of her as all the other emotions and reactions. She started acknowledging this, which was good. Started talking about the affair itself. She talked about how it began. She has maintained that the affair was ON PURPOSE, as a means to end the marriage. I kept trying to get at the root of this, because that simply doesn’t make sense to me, given all the events, and the fact that she was going to keep it secret, and keeps coming back to the marriage. She finally started talking about the stupid decision that led to the hook-up, and that it was a drunken mistake, not a purposeful plan. (The fog lifts!) She was trying to say that she doesn't believe she's a bad person because of it. I tried to reassure her that MOST people are susceptible to infidelity given the right circumstances, and the trick is to avoid the circumstances. Lots of relationship talk, how we got where we are, her issues with the marriage, ancient history, etc. In the end, it was a very good talk with some pretty good progress. Still left with that feeling that I love her, but I'm not sure if I like her right now. When she's affectionate and conversational, I love her. When we're physical, I couldn't be happier. When she's angry and terse and defensive and claiming that this is just her personality, I want to be far away from her.

So this morning I'm left with these two contrasting feelings. I love her, but I don't like her. Thankfully I have you dear people and all these resources telling me that this is perfectly normal and can be overcome with some patience and the correct steps. So onward I go. I've been calling this The Bhutan Death March. Doesn’t feel quite so horrid anymore, thankfully. It's definitely less agonizing than the previous weeks. The roller coaster continues, but it seems that progress is being made. Need to remember Steve McGandhi.

I asked her to be less defensive and angry. She started by saying that I'm asking her to be someone else,

I said something like this to my wife. I said its like a cat, when she's mad the claws come out and she scratches real hard. All I asking is that when you are mad just show the claws and I will back off, you don't have to scratch me to death everytime. The claws are very, very sharp!!! I don't know if this is a good analogy but she got the point.

Date night sounds like it was a success! Good for you.

Love the Bhutan Death March analogy. I'm with you, marching step for step...

Yes, as we get further and further away from last contact my WW's mind becomes clearer and clearer. And she opens up more.

Here are a few techniques I've been using subtly. Almost so subtle that I don't even realize I'm using them.

Reminiscing: WW and I have a very happy and fun filled marriage. Lots of good memories that we have been bringing up a lot lately. One thing I will do is reminisce about something in the past and just leave it out there for her to ponder. No follow up, no lead in to marriage / relationship talk. Just throw it out there and leave it. I think it sinks into her brain and leaves her with a positive memory.

The Look: Every once and a while I just stop and stare at my wife with that look of awe and amazement. No, not when she's being a chit, but when she's being gentile and kind with the kiddos, or she's putting her makeup naked in front of the mirror in morning...or just looking good. I stare until she notices me, then smile and walk away

Random acts of kindness: Gentile kiss on the forhead, gently rubbing her shoulders as she works on computer, bringing her refil for coffee. Just small things that I used to do...but for some stupid reason stopped doing. I just do them, then wander about my business like nothing happened, not expecting anything in return...ultimate giver.

Touching: WW loves to have her back tickled -- very relaxing. For longest time I tickled her back only when I was wanting or expecting SF. Now I do it all the time, and back rubs and run my fingers through her hair. She loves the touch, and frankly so do I. (we've always been very touchy-feely).

Treat her like my Queen: in my professional life I was known as a person who would go extra mile for those around me. High need for admiration I guess (the "thanks, I appreciate what you did" part of admiration). Since November I've done a pretty good job being that guy for my wife -- getting her the things she needs, being there for her, taking care of her, etc. At first I felt like "why should I be working so hard at this...I'm going to grow resentful." But strange thing happened...I grew to enjoy taking care of her. It has become a part of me. And now that the fog and withdrawal is mostly gone she's giving back to me, which is very cool.

Hope this helps Zen. Take what you will and throw the rest in to the dumpster. And I love the "Steve McGandhi" thing! Keep up the good work my man!

Thanks DNU1.

There are definitely moments when she's acknowledging the little things. Clean house, laundry done, back rub. Last night she said she was craving cheese after our lovin. Jumped up and got her a couple slices. I would have done this in the past I think, but I had more of a sense of joy doing it than I've had in awhile. She said it was very sweet. Also said my seduction was really sweet. Said she loves being seduced. "Why didn't you use that line for the last 10 years?" This in response to an elaborate analogy I was drawing between a French curve and gumdrops and her hip and leg um... other stuff. You're right, strike a balance between making her feel cared for and cherished, and not being the needy puppy dog.

Just had an excellent talk with my Dad. Feels good to have him tell me that he admires the effort I'm putting into this. He says he would never have the patience that I have. For me it comes down to this: I have everything in the world that I want. I will fight to the bitter end to save it.

I've been struggling with anger lately, I think because I have this feeling that she might be sticking around. I want to have some of the feelings addressed, now that I feel a tiny bit more sure of things. So hard to get your head around the idea of a withdrawal period. I mean it makes perfect sense, it just seems like salt in the wound for the BS. I'm only a week in! It's hard describing this stuff to others - they think I'm crazy for sticking with it. Still everyone I know supports us being together.

I have an appointment with Dr. Harley on Friday. I feel like I’m in a good place, but I'd like some more input on getting through the withdrawal period, and input on how to encourage WW to start working on her own STUFF.

Thanks everyone!

Hang in there Zen. I'm sure Dr. H will have good advice for you regarding your WWs withdrawal and how to encourage her.

Some days it seems my wife is still suffering through that withdrawal. Other days she seems better.

Glad you have your Dad to support you. I've basically got nothing but this board. Two of WWs good friends (females) know and I've talked to them a little, but feel uncomfy because, well, they are HER friends. But they both support my decision to stick in this and both think I'm headed for sainthood for not kicking WW to the curb at DDay. So I got that going for me

Hang in there. The more you cherish and take care of her the closer you get to her being completely done with withdrawal and start working on her self.

Hang in there!

Man, DNU1, I really feel for you, having few people to talk to. I have reconnected with friends and relied heavily on my parents, brother and good friends through this. I don't know what I'd do it without them. Pretty much everyoneI know is supportive of my efforts, with the occassional look of pity. My wife has cut herself off from almost all her friends and family and is just starting to dip her toes into the water again. The exposure to everyone we know really hurt her, I think, but I don't regret it a bit. She expresses anger about it to others, but not much to me. It's like she knows it's not a good reason to be angry. Along with the exposure I was careful to state that I had contributed to her disillusionment and that I hoped her friends would stand by her. She continually says she has no friends through this, but it is almost 100% her choosing. I've been getting a lot of the saint comparisons which certainly helps the VERY bruised ego in this situation. Gotta be careful not to let it go to my head.

Zen, i told the world about my wife's first affair (14 years ago), even though it was pretty much over. Didn't have MB.com to refer to. We lived away from most of our family, but it was hard for her to come to family events for a long, long time. Felt horrible.

This time, A#2, the affair was over on DDay, so no need to expose to anyone but OMs GF. And wife feels terrible enough as it is. She asked that I not tell my family for fear they would not forgive her again.

I understand, and really want to work on our marriage. It's been hard to work through this myself, but with the grace of the big man upstairs and the wonderful receptive people on this board I'm moving forward.

I'm being strong. It is kind of nice to be seen as the "saint" and the "great guy" who is wiling to work on his wayward wife. But that only goes so far. Wife needs to continue to move forward.

One day at a time. Like Tom Hanks said in Castaway, "I've just got to keep breathing. You never know what the tide might bring in."

No reponse to emails this afternoon. Gettin kinda late for dinner time... Doesn't pick up phone... That ol familiar feeling...

Get a position locator on her phone. At least you'll know where she is!

Zen: Yea, may be time to GPS her car and/or GPS track her phone. If's she's got a smartphone I suggest flexispy.com

I'm not saying...I'm just saying

Shows you you EVERY incoming/outgoing text and logs phone calls. Pro version does other really cool things...

Called shortly after my post. Apologized and said she had a meeting that ran over and she didn't have her phone or computer with her. This was a meeting to decide whether or not she had a job, and I tend to believe this was the real deal. Only about an hour late home, it was just the lack of communication that was making me nervous. I was very calm and welcoming when she came home, even though a little sore. She was apologetic but relieved with the results of her meeting. A pleasant evening all around.

I will keep spying, but I'm just not willing to turn my life into this constant paranoid bs. I may be naive, but I feel like I have enough of a finger on her pulse to tell when things are headed back into affair land. So far she's doing all the right things as far as her time and accountability goes. Sometimes her attitude leaves a little to be desired, but it's usually when we're hitting the heavy subjects or when she's around others who know abotu the affair. I will continue to keep my eyes and ears open, but I won't let this run my life. Sooner or later something will surface if she's continuing the affair, and I will act accordingly.

This morning she thanked me for all the things I'm doing around the house and with the kids. Said I was a good wife. Ha. Well at least she notices. When I stand back and listen to other accounts, I think she's doing a pretty good job during this early withdrawal period. Seems to be managing the depression and stress, without being too unpleasant to be around. She's definitely burying herself in work, and still pretty self centered in her whole outlook, but I feel her coming back into the family and marriage little by little. She reaches out to me more and more, asks how I'm doing, initiates physical contact more. Trying to remember the timelines described in Surviving the Affair. I believe he says 2 to 3 weeks of severe depression, then a gradual decrease over the ensuing months. Can last about twice the length of the affair, which would mean about 5 months for us. We're just starting week 2 today. Yikes. I know these are subjective numbers, but I also believe they've seen enough of these to at least offer educated guesses.

Onward and upward. Let's see if I can actually get some work done today?!

I posed some of these questions elsewhere, but I think I'd like to hear some of the answers on my own thread.

I am concentrating on my boundaries, and how to stick to them, without LBs and without betraying my desire to remain in the strong Plan A.

Conditions I gave her to get back in the door last week:

- No Contact

- Follow MB principles

- Complete honesty

- Transparency


She seems to be doing a good job with transparency. I feel like there's a level of gesture in this because it's dirt simple to open other email accounts, etc. This is where her accountability with time comes in. She's doing OK with this. Wish there was a little more frequent contact, but it's been pretty good.

Following some of the MB principles in action, but zero effort to look at the book and start the nitty gritty work.

No contact? Who knows. I think I'll ask her again tonight. See the reaction. Just seems so likely that there would be contact, but I may not know until she acts on it.

She's meeting a female business friend for happy hour after work today. Asked if I was OK with it. I told her it made me nervous, but if she can contact me a couple times and not stay late, I would be OK. She agreed to take a couple pictures of herself while there.

How does this all sound? Stay the course? Push the progress more?

Zen, although DDay was more than a month after her last contact with OM, my wife still had wavering feelings towards him. Even now, I can see she's working on things, but it's still slow going.

I'm like you and want to see movement, progress, any little hint of an effort on my wife part. My IC, her IC and people on this board helped me understand that I need to be patient. Yes, if I'm stressing out all over the place, let my WW know, but avoiding love busters.

And another thing...my wife hates the touchy-feely-hold-hands-sing-kumbayaa-activities. So instead of demanding she do X, Y & Z, I subtly move towards those "boundaries."

Example: I didn't demand e-mail & smartphone passwords, simply mentioned it a few times and left it lie. Talked about it a while later, and let sink in again. A few days later she says, "here's my e-mail password" etc. Subtle, but effective.

I'm not jamming SAA down her throat (although some days I would like to do just that) and she's not reading the book her IC asked her to. So I asked if I could copy a few chapters from this site for her to read...she's okay with that.

Honesty...well, you know from my thread how that's going. Progress, although slow...

After our first affair I laid down the law and said she must meet these criteria, bang, bang, bang. Which she did. I wonder if she ever felt resentful towards me?

This time around after reading MB.com principles and talking with my IC, I'm being much more patient and subtle. It's almost as if she's coming up with these ideas. I just plant the seed and watch it grow

I think that will have a more lasting impact on her. If you FORCE her to do something she may resent it. If you *help her understand* (aka, subtle, etc.) then she might pick up the ball and run with it.

But remember, it's going to take time. My wife is just now starting to open up on the transparency thing...and it's been almost three months since the affair ended.

Yeah, results. I need to remember this is a long winding road, not some instant path to ALL BETTER.

Had some good clarity while working out. That same feeling I've had even during the affair where I realized I just need to keep the family going as though I was alone, and if my partner joins back in, good. If not, I've kept my family going and can keep going. It's that centered, peaceful feeling you hope will start outlasting the anxiety and pain and uncertainty. I think it's one of those things you arrive at and almost don't realize you're there. It's not til a ways down the road when you look back at how miserable you were, and look at how you feel now, and hey, I feel better. I feel whole. I'm probably years from that now, but I know it can happen.

Barely any contact with wife today which has me anxious. She's going to a happy hour with female co-oworker which also has me anxious. Tired of being anxious. Tired of being a single parent. Tired, but OK.

MB principle require a 25 hours a week to get restarted. 15 hours when everything is settled.

Are you doing this?

Called the wife to get her schedule for the evening's happy hour thing. She's immediately defensive and peeved. I tell her that this is just where we're at. Things are extremely fragile and it's hard for me to even be OK with her going to this, so I need some accountability. She acknowledges, but is still peeved. Says she will be home by midnight. I say that's too late for me. How about 10:00? That's 5 hours. Says she'll call me back in half an hour when she's done with work to talk about it. Still peeved.

My first reaction is anger. But, then I realize, I'm not afraid of her anger. I'm not doing things out of fear anymore. I won't do things for fear of losing the marriage. If she can't understand the need for accountability right now, and the difficulty I have in being comfortable with her going to a bar without me, she's way too deep in the fog, and I don't need to accommodate that. I will approach this with no anger. Just a statement of boundaries, and let her live within them or not. No LBs, just no doormat. It's hard!!!!

Let's see... 6 or 7 hours on a date night, probably 2 or 3 hours in the evening after kids go to bed... I'd say wer're at 16 or 17 maybe. I'll try to add in more lunches. That might get me to the magic 25, or at least close.

The trouble I'm having... She will use work as an excuse to avoid spending so much time together. She has come to the conclusion that this is her MASTER excuse, the one I can't argue with because money is tight. I'll tell her that we need to put our marriage first, and her employers will understand that. She can still work her butt off.

I need to stick with the boundaries, in a gentle but firm way. If she can't, I can't keep making my decisions from a position of fear. Steve McGandhi!!!!!

Wife called back to discuss the evening. We were both cheerful and calm. We took a stab at the policy of joint agreement. I said that I want to feel secure that our marriage is continuing to mend, and I'd like to not worry about her being at a bar. She said she'd like to have some free time and make this business connection in the face of her uncertainty at work. I asked how we both get what we want. She agreed to call a couple times, send a picture of herself at the bar and if she is running after 10:00, she'd call. Not my favorite arrangement, but it was the best we could do. She acknowledged that I have every reason to worry and she apologized.

She called at 7:30 to update me, say she's going to keep going, but wanted to call and let me know the evening was going well and she's where she said she is. Said she loved me. Can't tell if this is buttering me up or actual heart-felt sentiment. In the end, she's mostly getting what she wants tonight. Sigh. I guess I'll just see when she gets home.

I think that she has to evaluate this time as a way to construct a revived marriage.

Public places without each other doesn't cut it.

Uh yes, I wholeheartedly agree about that. What I'm unsure about is how to address it. I asked her to consider my feelings as part of our agreement tonight. She's kinda living up to it, but I still feel like sh*t. She just called saying she's still there, still 'cultivating this work relationship'. Said she's calling because I wanted her to, but she really needs to concentrate on her work, blah blah. Almost note for note the same call I got 5 hours earlier. Said she sent a photo to me but I don't have it. I just feel like the stupid codependent spouse who desperately wants to give the alcoholic the benefit of the doubt. I mean I do think she is at this bar with this woman, but I am angry as hell that she puts so much before me at this stage. I told myself I would not wait up at night for her again, yet here I am. At least she's calling, but I don’t really feel much better.

Hopefully I can clear some of this up in my session with Dr. Harley today. Sick and tired. Tired. Weary.

Hang tough Z!

How does this night compare to when she was active in the A? Would she have even consulted with you about going out after work? Would she call while she was out to check in?

She may be pushing at the boundaries a little because she feels hemmed in. Was last night progress in your mind? What about in her mind?

When I used to work at college I saw lots and lots of freshman who were under their parents thumbs while in HS. Those kids would self destruct socially after getting to college and having NO boundaries. And from the other side of the spectrum -- those kids with little to no parental supervision would have difficult time with rules and regs of the residence halls. They would lash out at my staff and the "boundaries" that were in place.

You and you wife didn't have good boundaries before...and now you are trying to reign in the horses. It's going to take time. And with her still being in some fogginess...well, that will make it take even longer. Baby steps.

DNU1, you are correct. Last night was an improvement from the affair. When she got home I was calm and cheerful at 2:45 in the morning. She said she had tried to make sure she was in contact... called a couple times, texted several times, sent a photo. I didn't get any texts or photos. She said, uh oh. Showed me her phone... she had sent them, and I hadn't received them. This is a phone she just got yesterday, and she hadn't received any of the texts that I sent her either. So, phone malfunction. Yes, she was making an effort. That's different than the affair. I'm just angry that the main thing I asked for, that she not stay out too late, was pretty much ignored, even though followed with an explanation and apology. She said something like, "why are you still awake? Oh, you didn't get any of my texts... I'm surprised you're in such a good mood..." I stuck with Plan A even though my Taker was very very anxious. The result was some nice cuddling, making out and ya know, other stuff. Then drifted off to sleep in each other's arms, woke up with her cuddling up tight to me. The kids even slept until 7:00 this morning!!! It was a miracle!

I find myself kinda lingering in anger this morning though. I keep telling myself, SAVE the marriage FIRST, FIX the marriage, after. My new mantra. I guess when were both a lot more invested in the marriage again, we can negotiate boundaries better.

Thanks DNU1 for some perspective. I find myself wanting to approach this thing with tough love. It has been one of the few things that's worked. Dr. Harley seems to advocate a little more Zen approach, which I think you're doing admirably, DNU1. It just feels like I'm being a doormat sometimes and I'm tired of it. Tired of sleepless nights.

Tonight is date night. Kids are going to be at Grandma's all night, so we might even be able to sleep in!!! I'm looking forward to it, and will hold myself to be careful with the liquor and NO relationship talk, unless it's to express happiness.

Oh, very good analogy with the college students and boundaries. Yes, she had obliterated all our previous boundaries months ago, and is resistant to come back into them.

Just had the awkward moment where wife tried to log onto Facebook while I was there reading her posts.

She was very cool and matter-of-fact about it. Said she didn't mind, but felt bad for me. Said she had nothing to hide.

I asked her if she had had any contact with The Dude. Her response:

"No. It sucks some days, but I need to be able to answer that question, so I haven't."

Well that's as good an answer as I can expect right now I think. I hope it's true.

I think you are doing great Zen! If the OM was living in my town, and there could still be contact easily I'm sure I would be a basket case...much more demanding and boundry-ish than you.

Yes, it's hard to draw the line between loving Plan-A husband and doormat sometimes. It is nice when my wife asks what she can do for me and shows progress, but there are times when I think to myself "come on...let's move this train just a little faster!"

Staying up to greet her when she got home was a good plan. I'm sure you being Steve McGhandi-ish calm and no love busters really made an impression on her! Keep that up.

I sometimes want to be mean, cruel and nasty to my wife as sort of a pay-back for her putting me through this AGAIN, but I have to keep thinking back to MB.com principles...And it helps tremendously to read here and read your posts. Give me perspective.

I watch my wife like a hawk and snoop the crap out of all things techy -- e-mail, facebook, phone, text, you name it I'm on it! Don't have voice recorder in her car cause I can see who she's calling -- just her girlfriend mainly, and ME. (note to self, need to check her e-mail today...)

I know it's hard and I sense my wife is further from the fog and withdrawal than yours. But one small slip and she could be right there with your wife. I keep crossing my fingers and making massive deposits in her love bank.

Hang tough my friend! You are making a difference in your life and your marriage!!!

Just finished talking to Dr. Harley. Got to the meat of my uncertainty as far as establishing a direction or waiting for withdrawal to clear more.

He said he felt that this was the window of opportunity. It could get harder, the more I work at it and the more she stays stuck. He said I will just get frustrated and potentially mess things up.

He said wife needs an action plan. He said I should ask her to talk to him. I was thinking there's no way. But guess what?! She just stopped by home, I presented the idea, she agreed without hesitation. Asked about what he was like... I said, "smart, plan-oriented, you'll like him."

I'm going to take a moment to indulge in some hope and jump up and down. Ok, if we can pull off a good date night tonight, I will have made it through the day without a ton of anxiety! That's my measure of a good or bad day these days: How well I keep the anxiety at bay.

DNU1, you might consider asking your wife to talk to him... I know it's hard, but could really help with direction and focus.

Yea, you are probably right Zen. This morning my "taker" is feeling pretty neglected. Give, give, give...and not much in return.

Wife having a plan would be a good thing. Hope her IC Monday will provide her with a little more direction. And meeting with her Doc to review meds and hopefully get her on something that will give her a little more spark (anti-depress meds).

We have date night tonight, so I'm hopefull we can talk more.

I sent her Joseph's Letter via e-mail yesterday...she hasn't brought it up yet. I know she's read it...saw from her e-mail (snoop-DogNU1)

Waiting patiently.

This has been her MO for the duration of our relationship...avoid the uncomfortable talk and let me bring things up. Passive...then AGGRESSIVE when she's fed up.

Ug.

Zen, things sound wonderful! From what you describe, she has made the decision to choose her marriage and unhesitatingly proves it. Jumping up and down sounds appropriate.

Speaking of MOs - I was talking to a friend this morning about all this stuff. Date night was... OK. I had to go hide behind a car to cry at one point, then hide in the bathroom to cry when we got home, and she was just ready to get to some lovin. It was a fun night overall, but there are constant reminders of how far apart we are right now. Just constant bits of conversation and behavior that demonstrate her view of us and me as her husband. There's such a lack of connectedness and respect that it is all I can do to pretend to smile and stand next to her sometimes. Other times it feels like we share so much that it's easy to be around her. So many things she said to me and others were demonstrative of where she's at. VERY little talk of simple home life, kids, husband, our life together, etc. It was mostly talk of her wild past, her partying, her intense work life... really over-the-top brash behavior which has always been part of my wife in party mode, but there's not much balance with the other parts of her life. She's pretty flirty - few boundaries. Really aggressive driving, everybody is out to get her, drinking way too much. This is so similar to her behavior when we were first dating. It was TERRIBLE. She was beautiful and fun and smart, so I tried to look past all the troubling behavior because I was just trying to have fun. I was terribly conflicted because she was more than I could handle at times. As we got more serious, most of this calmed down, particularly when she was in her own apartment and we had started learning to communicate and create goals together. In our married life, she's always been the more fiery one and still made me uncomfortable at parties, but it was at a level I could handle. Now I'm in a position to wonder if she was suppressing this side of herself, or if this is reaction/defense mode for her when she feels lost and depressed and angry. Here I am again to be the stabilizing force, which she'll rely heavily on for awhile, then resent later. Argh!!!

I'm trying to keep the big picture in mind. Save the marriage first, work on the marriage later. There was so much good in our life together, I must remember it. I must remember my children. I'm having so much trouble liking her right now. When we're cuddling in bed, trading jokes and stories of the past, talking about our children, talking about food or travel, making love... this is when I love her. When we're around other people, I feel really uncomfortable. When she's angry and pissy and defensive I can't stand her. I guess I just need to stick around until I see whether or not she addresses these issues. If not, I don't think I can live with them.

I had this horrible vivid dream this morning about the party the night before and a friend telling me she was making out with another guy. I woke up having trouble separating it from reality. She knew something was wrong with me and for once, I didn't want to talk! I didn't want to spoil the good parts of the day before. She kept pressing me, and I thought long and hard before I told her that I kept being reminded of the distance between us, and it made me sad. She asked if I had fun the night before, I said yes. She took it pretty well. Said she was trying not to give into the emotions all the time, just power through, snuggled back into my chest. This is her solution so far. Hopefully Dr. Harley can give her a little more structure to work on than that. Sigh.

Should add that my wife called on her way to work today to tell me a funny story about being carded while buying a lottery ticket (which she does once a year). Can't tell if this is her EFFORT to keep trying to connect with me, or if it is a geniune connection that we share. Either one brings a bit of hope.

Back in the Plan A saddle.

Z: My wife will call to say she got carded at Wally-Mart, or some other place while purchasing alcohol -- she laughs and it makes her feel young again. Must be a woman thing.

On your previous post -- you are doing great. Keep rocking the Plan A and communicating your feeling with your wife in a calm, cool manner. Don't hold anything back -- policy of radical honesty!

I sense she's showing growth and moving forward. It's interesting in that your wife was party animal and calms down as your marriage progressed. My wife completely opposite -- very quiet, introverted and grew more outgoing as our marriage and relationship progressed. Hmmmmm...

I think you are doing great and keeping things held together. Hiding behind a car and heading to bathroom to let your feelings out -- not showing the wife your tears -- Good thing at this point. She needs to see your strength and resolve to keep the marriage going.

Be strong my friend. More later...

Yeah, she does not handle my tears very well these days. Makes her very uncomfortable. This is good that she feels guilt as opposed to indifference. About a week before D-day we got into a HUGE fight. We didn't fight often, so this was a standout. At one point she started being extremely cold and insulting and I was trying to get her to calm down and she acted like I was going to hit her. I had an extreme reaction to this. That she would imply that I would be physically abusive was devastating. It was such a betrayal of what I thought we shared that I burst into tears and cried uncontrollably for half an hour. She didn't seem to care. Her coldness scared the crap outta me. Turns out she was in the middle of an affair and she had to dehumanize me to feel OK with what she was doing. I didn’t know it at the time and I literally regretted ever meeting her in that moment. Thought I had married a pathological monster. I still have that nagging doubt here and there, but I think she's come back from that extreme for now. The alien-infested wayward in it's darkest form!

Last night was going to be a relaxing night at home after our late night before. An old friend called and asked if I wanted to hang out. I want to spend as much time with her as possible, but I knew I'd just fall asleep without much conversation. I decided to go be with supportive friends. It was nice to take a break and vent a little. These are very old friends who are supportive of both of us. It was probably good for WW to put the kids to bed and just have a relaxing evening at home. I need to let her have space to do her own work sometimes too. Part of me always wanting to be there is a fear of letting her out of my sight!

Not much going on today. She's off to work for a few hours. Just pleasant morning chatter today. We're having a friend over tonight for crab and corn chowder. This is one of my wife's friends, but one around whom she feels pretty self-conscious right now. I gotta commend her bravery for facing the music once again. Unfortunately it probably just means she'll be very punchy and guarded. Here's to hoping this will lessen over time and exposure to good friends and family.

Z, isn't it interesting how those pre-DDay events that really confused us now seem all so clear?!! Our WW's were acting strangely yet we did not see the forrest, heck, even the trees through all the FOG! I'm amazed to look back and think about pre-DDay situations and say to myself, "ah-haaaaaa! I see now!"

Yes, my wife does not do well with my tears and being upset. But she's so reserved that I never really know if I'm getting through to her. DDay, I had kidds at friends house and confronted her about e-mails, Vegas, OM when she returned home from work. No tears, just that blank, cold stare from her. No denial, just the cold stare. I wish she would have cried like a baby and begged for forgiveness.

She later said she was expecting me to kick her to the curb. Expected to find her stuff on the driveway for weeks after DDay. Felt she deserved to be "punted" after a 2nd affair.

I think that's why it's has taken her so long to warm up to me and Plan A.

It's good that you headed out with friend and left your wife to take care of kiddos and be at home. I'm glad you have friends who you can vent to. Wish I had some...

And it's huge that your wife is facing the music with her friends and exposure is working for you both. Stay strong.

I'd write more, but my wife is due home soon. She's on vacation all week, so I'm not sure how much MB.com time I'll get this week. Thats' a godo thing, because I will be spending majority of my time with her! Take care my friend. D.

My wife has a call to Steve Harley this Friday. Good grief I hope it helps. She's just trying to bury herself in work and her own little world, which is probably pretty normal with withdrawal. The continued self-centered focus is very painful for me, but I'm gaining more and more traction on the ME front. Just gotta keep movin' forward. Who can resist a positive, skinny, motivated super-husband? Nobody! Feeling kinda separate from her right now, which is to be expected. She certainly isn’t taking me into account with many of her decisions. I'm taking her into account, but I'm not depending on her like I used to. No signs of neediness, just support and strength. Hope I can keep it up!

I've come up with kind of a 6 month timeline for myself. I want to run this by you good people and Dr. Harley and friends and family. Right now I don't really feel like we can be together. I just don't like who she's become, and I worry that her habits and coping mechanisms won't change and I'll be dealing with these same issues forever. I'm almost living as a single dad right now anyway. If she can't change some of these things about herself, I don't want to stay with her. I know my marriage won't be fixed in 6 months, but I think I will see some direction by then. That's a re-evaluation time, not necessarily a decision time.

I read somewhere else that you should delay the divorce decision until your marriage is back on its feet. I would think that you wouldn't want to be divorced if you are back on your feet. Point is to delay the decision until you have really given it your all and you have a lot more perspective. I'll just have to see how the coming months unfold.

Zen,
I'm not making excuses for your wife's behavior- but I wonder something? Has she ever been evaluated by a psych? The reason I ask is that I'm mildly bipolar. You mentioned earlier in a post that she drives pretty crazy. Agressive risk taking behaviors such as driving irratically and an acting out sexually are sometimes symptoms of being bipolar. Many people who are bipolar drink too because it helps them cope. Just a thought. Has she ever been on Anti D's???

Ya know she has some mental issues in her family, so this might be it, but frankly, I think this is defensive/stress/coping behavior. We've had about 9 years of stability in our relationship, which is kinda what keeps me hoping this can be saved. I do hope she seeks some real help through this, because she always thinks she knows best. I think I know best too! One of the reasons were great and terrible together.

She was on an anti-anxiety med for a bit, said she was depending on it a little too much and got off it. Did some cognitive speech therapy which really seemed to help.

Maybe down the road I can bring this up, but I don't think it'd be good right now!

Great job getting her to talk to Harley! Mega points for Steve McGhandi!

And being the calm, cool, working on himself guy...more mega points! Keep that up.

Remember, her brain fell out of her head...and she's probably trying to find it before she puts it back in her brain.

My wife did pretty much the same thing...dug herself in to work, self absorbed, self-centered, etc. Your wife WILL come out of this, but it's going to take time. I believe those around here talk about strong Plan A...and when your WW not responding, head to Plan B to protect yourself from loosing all your love for her, running your love bank dry.

I think you have a long way to go before heading to Plan B (or even Plan D) Zen!

Plant the seed of her seeing a shrink or psych about her mental health. Ask her about her family history...then leave it for a week or so. Then revisit and ask if she's ever felt unbalanced...then leave for a week (plant those seeds, then let them grow...)

Pretty soon she will pull out of this fog / withdrawal and begin listening to you more closely. If she's anything the hard-headed, stubborn woman my wife is, you have lots of seeds to plant...and lots of watering to do!

Hang in there. Reading your posts and hearing your kind words is helping me a ton. Hopefully I'm doing the same for you!

Keep strong! Keep Steve McGhandi going full bore! D.

Thanks my friend! Your encouragement is truly appreciated. looking back at my post, I sound more pesimistic than I feel. I'm just trying to keep my bar high, while looking at the reality of the situation. I know we're just starting this process and it could still fall apart at any moment. I will Plan A indefinitely as long as she's not headed out the door. Plan B or D is for when she screws up again, or when I realize she's incapable of doing her part. Either way, I'm committed to just sticking with the program for the foreseeable future. I say 6 months because it helps me to have some goal. It's not a deadline to make a decision, it's a deadline to withhold from decision making. It will keep me sane if insanity is looming large.

Really I think we're headed in a good direction. Wednesday will be two weeks. Pretty good banter and chatter with her today. Going out for a family dinner. Salvadoran food. Yum!

Thanks everybody!

A reminder that during her withdrawal, do not expect huge response to Plan A tactics.

Hang in. Continue improve your personal growth.

If it is any encouragement, the event of infidelity has changed many people lives to the better. Reevaluation has brought about new growth and understanding about themselves as well as better relation with those they love.

Yeah, here's an example of the withdrawal behavior:

Went out to restaurant last night. It's one of our favorites. The food was delicious, I was in a great mood and the kids were behaving. My wife was in an OK mood, but kinda distant and impatient with the kids. She's always had less patience with the kids than me, but she was extra grumpy last night.

Got home and she cuddled up with the kids for a little TV before bed. She told me she'd pay me $20 to put the kids to bed by myself (way back in pre-affair days, this was a shared ritual - I've been doing about 90% for the last few months). I was peeved, but agreed to cheerfully. She was out like a light when I got back. Every morning she lounges in bed while I get the kids ready and make breakfast. Then mostly talks about how tired she is and how much work she has. As warned, she's definitely a bump on a log.

But, she is responding to my Plan A stuff, so there's some progress. Thanks me for all my work - responds to kisses and massages, even reaches out to me every once in awhile. It's nowhere near a level I could live with for the long term, but I feel like there's steady movement back to US on her part. So yes, Plan A is still alive and well and my patience is that of a stone. I'm relying pretty heavily on MB information, and from all I've read, I'd say she's doing alright considering we're at 2 weeks tomorrow. I should expect a couple more weeks of really deep depression from her, then several months of lessening withdrawal. Fun!

Zen whatever other problems you have, I must say that you do dine well!

Ha, thanks! Food was this huge connection for us in the beginning, and it's totally become that again. It's funny because before all this, we have this fairytale perfect life in many ways, real and superficial. I do not kid when I say that I have everything I want. So many of our friends are shocked about this mess because we were that couple who seemed to have it all together. I still feel like that is there, but the MOST important piece is severely damaged now. I'd lose all the rest of the STUFF to fix what is broken. I hope we can.

I just want to announce that I'm having a brief moment of real joy and contentedness. It may be brief, but I'll shout it from the top of a hill.

Reading some of these helped:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0196229/quotes

Well that contentedness could only last so long...

Got a text from my wife ranting about how crappy one of the questionnaires from Dr. Harley is. It's kind of a self-esteem questionnaire. Says how she feels great about herself, she's doing nothing wrong, no guilt or self-hate. (Exactly the opposite of what she said when she came back last time, and right after D-day).

At least she followed that by saying she felt good and honest and that she was doing the right thing now (recovery?). Didn't feel guilty about her current actions, the past (affair?) yes, but not now.

It's good, but this is kinda what I'm afraid of. To avoid the pain, she'll just move right into fix-it mode, without actually fixing it.

Talked about her depression. Some suicidal thoughts about driving her car into the other lane. Said she knew it was self-indulgent, so she won't. Through this mess, I kinda get the self-indulgent call to attention that destructive behavior is. I never really got it before.

This is a little hard to decipher in this format, but anyone wanting to read an IM conversation with someone going through heavy withdrawal, here it is: Me and my wife - talking about personality worksheet from Dr. Harley:

Wife: personality one?
WTF?
how f*cking simple can you be??
yes, I have a high self esteem, no I don't blame my problems on other popel
duh
not "you" simple
sorry
me: I took it as a quick way to evaluate how you feel about yourself.
for the therapist's sake
Wife: yeah - but it's too simple to get a true feeling
me: yeah, probably
Sent at 10:45 AM on Tuesday
Wife: and 'have you ever been disciplined in school' - questions like that - only the
biggest of 'pleaser' haven't been and even they have had their name on the board once, so what a hugely open ended question - I was actually very good in school but I've gotten in trouble so does that mean I'm a delinquent? it's too simple of a question - or someone that was delinquent is in the same catagory as a name on the board??
me: I may be wrong, but I think this is more about how you feel about yourself. Like I've been in trouble at school several times, but I don't think I was a trouble maker overall. Like you.
Sent at 10:48 AM on Tuesday
me: If you aren't comfortable answering a question, I'm sure you can leave it blank.
Wife: I actually feel fine about myself .
me: good!
Wife: I have a lot of depression right now and anxiety, and I'm losing my hair and I want to crash my car in the morning, but I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong
so, I have no guilt or anger or self-hate
Sent at 10:51 AM on Tuesday
me: What do you feel good
about?
Wife: well, I'm trying and I'm doing what is right and I have nothing to feel guilty about
well - I don't mean nothing as in past I mean as in now
me: I think that's excellent
Wife: so, I can say I'm being honest and that I'm doing what I should be doing
doesn't mean I like it every second of every day
and it's hard to get out of bed every morning
and I don't want to do anything
I can see my scalp through my hair
me: Oh Sweety
Wife: I feel mildly high when I drive to work
like - no matter what I'm not right
I feel like I could be convicted of
a DUI - sort of off
so if I just drove in to another car and ended up in a coma I could just sleep it all off
I know to you that seems so self indulgent
and it is and I wouldn't
me: Dunno if it helps, but from stuff I've read, that is a very common feeling in your position.
Wife: my position
me: Someone who has come back from an affair. Early on.
I so don't want to be in a position to analyze you. like you said when you came back, you will do the work, and I think you have to choose your tools.
Speaking from my experience through this... That 'doing what is right' has been a very strengthening thing
Takes a long time to overcome all the other feelings though.
Sent at 10:58 AM on Tuesday
Wife: I have my on days and off days
am I supposed to print these and fill them out or am I supposed to send them back?
me: send them back
He didn't refer to them when I talked to him.
Wife: ok, that's more weird
me: I suspect it's kinda basic therapist tool. He went right to the meat of the issue when I talked to him. Talked about immediate steps and action which I appreciated. Helped the anxiety.
Sent at 11:04 AM on Tuesday
Wife: I see
the love bank inventory
me: Oh and yes it's self-
indulgent, but I get it.
Wife: there are blanks - I assume that I'm supposed to be referring to you when I answer
Like, am I supposed to put in me, the kids, what?
I can't fil in the blank
so...
it's odd
I experience a good feeling when I think about......food!
me: second one?
Wife: yeah
it's weird
me: lemme see
oh yeah, this is about feelings toward me.
blank is me
me is blank
Wife: yeah, I figured that out, it was just confusing at first - it should say that
me: yeah, took me a sec too
Wife: ok, good, I don't feel like an a*shole then
me: I had to think, 'current feeling' or 'before feelings'. I think current feelings is accurate
Wife: yeah, I did current
me: ya know, I get the self-indulgent, self-destruct thing more than before.
Wife: took you awhile to write that. what did you delete?
me: ha, reading something else
Wife: oh
me: I was going to say that I have only experienced it mildly because I have not experienced depression on that level. Didn't think it would help us connect
though
But, being honest, there ya go.
Wife: didn't think being self-indulgent would help us connect?
don't get it
you should be honest
if you feel a certain way
say it
I have been and it's not fair
me: I mean saying that I
havent't experienced it on that level
Wife: I'm the only one saying an ything negative
Sent at 11:19 AM on Tuesday
me: I agree to some extent but I think total honesty at times would destroy whatever little thing we're clinging to.
I think we need to do some repair
Wife: yeah, I get that
me: If I told you how deeply hurt I am all the time, would it make you want to stick around? Make you want to help me?
Sent at 11:21 AM on Tuesday
me: I'm tired of fear though. Tired of being afraid of outcomes. Tired of eggshells. But I think I know where I need to be right now
Hope and the past are just as valid as the pain and uncertainty
Wife: agreed but I'm still scared
me: So I choose hope and the big picture.
Wife: what if I can't come back? what if you can't get over it? then - what, am I still an a*shole after trying?
me too - but i can't help but being scared
me: I dunno how to answer that.
Do what's right is what I cling
to.
Do what's right for me and the kids. And you.
Wife: me too
uh
me: It IS right.
Wife: I do, but I don't put me last necessarily -
or first
just all the same
me: Your take on that is up to you.
Wife: what is right?
my take on that??
wtf
me: Yeah, it is the big picture.
I just mean I can only control me, as you know
Wife: that is overly simplified
Sent at 11:26 AM on Tuesday
me: Look, if I didn't care deeply about you, I would not keep trying. BUT. This goes
nowhere if you don't work just as hard as me. I can only control me, so I have no intention of trying to, or trying to always second guess.
We can only control ourselves, yes?
Wife: I am!@!!
jesus
logging out.
working
sorry
this is too much stress
I'm freaking out
and I'm f*cking at work
I have a lot of deliverables
and I'm a f*cking wreck
Sent at 11:30 AM on Tuesday
me: It's OK. I know.
Sent at 11:31 AM on Tuesday
Wife: no, it's no ok. I'm
f*cking stressed out, crying and at work - I can't concentrate
this is f*cked
I'm tired, worn out, depressed, anxiety ridden, on the verge of breaking, and I still have to maintain
I have no choice but to keep trying on every front

Sent at 11:34 AM on Tuesday
me: can you get the kids tonight?
meeting friend
Wife: you bet
me: thank you.
Wife: sure
Wife: jesus, 2 giant cups of coffee and my face still feels like I just got out of bed
Sent at 11:44 AM on Tuesday
Wife: peppermint tea
can we meet earlier if I'm picking up the kids
me: argh. Sorry. anything I can do to help, please ask.
Yeah, 12:15?

Wowza, she's close to snapping. Ugh I wish I could help her! This is the follow-up after a very nice lunch with her:

Me:

This is hard to articulate, but I want to be clear about something that may not have come out well in our chat. I still care about you like no one else. If there’s some way I can help you through this, I want to be able to. I am your husband and I take that role very seriously. It’s hard for me to make myself vulnerable right now, but I know I have to in order to rebuild. If you need to rely on me, if you need to ask me for anything, please do.

Thanks for lunch.

Wife:

I'm stressed out beyond belief. really, really stressed. my work load is still insane and every hour I spend dwelling on our issues, makes me more stressed about my workload not getting done. I could work all night through and not catch up. the idea of talking to a marriage counselor on a work day preemptively stresses me out. I'm almost always on a high-anxiety level point - I can feel my heart beating super fast and adrenaline coursing. I need to be able to block out my personal life during work so that I can concentrate and that isn't happening and my work is suffering.

lunch was nice, thank you.



It's weird, because I want to help her, and I want her to not feel this way... but feeling a little detached and just ready for either way. This has been my fear from d-day. Even if she wants to fix it, she's incapable. All I can do is give her a safe place at home. I'm doing that to the best of my ability! She's in the sink or swim position. I would not want to be in her shoes. So, will she calm down and keep going? Will she fly out the door and back to OM? Will she just spontaneously explode into confetti? I'd say any one of those is just as likely as the other right now.

Ha I think I’m posting more than you folks can keep up with. It's as much a journal as anything I guess.

I went and had dinner and a movie with a friend last night. Spoke to my wife briefly and she sounded cheerful but harried taking care of the kids. She's been so absent that I'm glad she can spend some time with them. I think it helps her remember why she's here (or will drive her crazy and send her packing again).

Got home and chatted for awhile. Decent night's sleep although I could tell she was restless. Here's an interesting question I will pose to you dear people: In bed I really want to re-establish touch and closeness; not sexual necessarily, just comfortable physical closeness. She's not resistant to it at all, in fact talked about needing this cuddle time at first, but not reaching out to me as much as I reach out to her. Probably a good illustration of our respective love banks. I don't want to appear too needy and pushy in this regard, so what's your take on that? Back off and let her come to me on her own time, or keep up the current level? This morning I was cuddling up next to her and she said I was making her want to stay in bed instead of get up for work. Then she rolled over and curled up next to me. That was nice. I need more of this. I almost feel like I should just keep treating her as my wife and initiate romance and touch whenever I feel the time is right. It's up to her to communicate if it's unwanted or uncomfortable. I just don't want her to do it out of obligation. On top of that, the rejection would be pretty hard to take at this point. Buuuuut, how much worse can she hurt me than she already has? No fear!!!

Feeling kind of melancholy today. That loss of specialness and closeness is hitting me pretty hard. Feeling lonely. I have wonderful friends and family and you good people, but that's not the same as the husband and wife relationship. Knowing you're the one and only for someone. I'm so sad that it's gone for now, maybe never to return. Steve McGandhi must stay strong.

On the upside, it's sunny today!!! I'm going to have a lunch with my wife's friend who blew the whistle. They're still very angry with each other. Not only has she been a great friend, but she knows the OM and I will see if I can glean a little info from her. I know she's gotten pretty tired of being in the middle of this, so she may not be willing to share. I'll try not to push, but it has been a very valuable resource for me, and the MAIN reason my wife is so angry at her.

It sounds like great progress to me. As for the cuddling, I would do more hit and miss, as in do some, but don't do it consistently, you know, like you every once in a while just have an urge to hug her, something like that. So she won't start dreading being around you because she associates it with cuddling.

Progress? Yes, on the surface it feels that way... But man I worry about her depression and her ability to keep it at bay. I wish she'd seek some help for it. The suicidal thoughts really scare me. The only thing that makes it less scary is reading that it is totally normal in withdrawal.

OK, I'm going for a jog in the sunshine. Please please please, Spring time - I need some Sun!!!

Interesting day. Very little contact with wife. I had lunch with her friend - the Whistle Blower. I should say ex-friend. Talked and talked and talked. She wanted to know what my boundaries in this are. It was a good question. She asked what my wife could do that would be instant grounds for divorce. I had trouble answering that. I guess I don’t feel like I could make that decision in an instant. There are several things that would certainly send me down that path... Getting back with OM or having another affair would probably be the deal breaker at this point. There are other things though... Not respecting boundaries I will set forth, not returning efforts in marriage, self-destructive behavior, substance abuse... I think any of this would certainly get me thinking in that direction because I have the bar set high.

It's scary talking to this friend because she has seen my wife go from the woman I knew at home to the party animal/affair lady. She sees all the out-of-control and attention getting behavior that I seldom saw. I asked her point blank: Do you think she can be the person I want her to be? She said, 'Nope'. Scary. That's the big question I'm contemplating. Can I separate the affair behavior with the 'real' wife? Who is the 'real' wife? This is what I will set out to find in the coming months. If the crazy bullsh*t continues, I think I'll have my answer. I had stopped going out with my wife very often for quite awhile, and I think she really let loose when I wasn’t there. So that's the question: Was I the one keeping her in check? I sure as heck don't want to be that person. I want someone who keeps herself in check. I thought that was my wife, but from so much of the conversation tonight, her friend thinks it was suppressed behavior in her. Argh, this is so hard!!! I've heard people who move on to divorce, especially in unhealthy and abusive relationships describe being able to finally see their spouse as other people see her. Now with us, this is the only friend who is saying, she's too nuts. All my friends and family want this to work. This is one of her dearest friends! So, is this an emotional reaction to their conflict? Is this an observation of my wife headed down a destructive path, but not necessarily the whole picture (they've only been good friends for a little over a year)? Is this just the truth of it: She's too screwy or damaged for me to really be comfortable again.

I look back on our history and she was definitely TOO MUCH at the beginning, and sometimes during, but not more than I could live with. I was the knight in shining armor taming her and providing a strength and stability that she never had. I knew it at the time and we never really re-addressed the issue as she became more stable. This became a problem for her I think. I look at our history and I think we had many very good years. It's so hard not to be overly influenced by recent events. I must give this the time and effort it deserves. But dang it I can't shake the reservations!

My wife wanted to go out with a girlfriend tonight. Sigh. I told her it makes me uncomfortable, but we can discuss how I can be reassured. She suggested that she's in her frumpy work clothes, she'll text me several times while there etc. I told her that I'm so tired of waiting up for her I need to know that she is putting our marriage first. She said that she is. It was a good conversation where she was on the verge of being defensive, but for once, didn't indulge! I just kept telling her that I need to see more steps on her part, other than her just being home. I need reassurance and I need her to live by the promises she made in returning home. Not demanding, just tryingto reiterate shere we are. I'm really struggling with that feeling that I'm just rolling over. I dunno if she's just learning to play me and placate me. But then I ask why is she here? I'm pretty darn sure she's not in the affair anymore. I THINK she is still the one who cut it off, which is significant in my mind... She says very clearly that this is where she wants to be, it's about her, me and the kids, said she can't really separate those factors out right now. I kinda pressed her asking if she's here because of ME, she said she is. I dunno, actions speak louder than words, right? Eventually I'll know if this is working or not. If she's just blowing smoke up my a*s, I'll know sooner or later. I hope I got through to her that I want more action. She said she understood, but well, actions will determine all in the end.

A question that Mike asked was did his wife have his back. What does yours want?

Is marriage about getting the maximum satisfaction out of life? Would you not agree that there are many sacrifices. How does the spiritual balance out with reality? Live on as someone with no God, you can justify it with means justifying the end. You can pick your own morality!

For what it's worth, the Christian rule is if both parties are close to God, then you are automatically close to each other. Your wife is trying to escape life and consequences. Maybe her end is death. Look at yourself as a leader, how can you improve her life?

Without preaching, where is your anchor?

I grew up in a family where my mother and stepdad were devout Christians. Their marriage was terrible for all 26 years. They may have been close to God, or maybe not, but they're shortcomings in the marriage were very human and could never be overcome. They divorced 2 years ago and from my perspective it was about 20 later than it should have been.

Our anchors... See as an atheist I don't feel like I need an anchor in God... I don't have that need. My anchors are in family, my values, the beautiful aspects of life. I'm not feeling at all articulate this morning, so this is not my best answer.

I would suggest that my morality comes from the best parts of humanity. Christians believe that Man is inherently flawed. I believe that Man just does what he can do to find happiness in his short time on earth. Morals are constructs set up to make all of our lives better. I'd say that is the purpose of morals from God as well.

I don't want to be her leader anymore. I've been stabbed in the back for that now. She needs to co-lead or move on.

My life has become a cliche.

Wife came home last night and I surprised her with some pretty spicy and fun bedroom time. She seemed to really enjoy it, and it was fun to do something different and new together.

We cuddled up in bed and feel asleep in each other's arms. At about 5 this morning, I had rolled over and she asked me to put my arms around her again. I did, then she said, "That's my (other man's name)". No joke. This happened. This was not a movie.

OMG, what did you do?

Sounds to me like you should tell her what she did.

Honestly, I think that one of the best things you can do is to execute the 180. This will give her some space and in some ways make you more attractive to her. You're too available.

A little "indifference" will get you further.

I'd also sit a good friend down and ask him/her how he/she sees your wife and if there's something they see that you don't. You need 100% honesty from them. This helped me because I didn't see some of the things my friends pointed out to me later and that has been seen by others in my situation regarding the constant need for attention by my exww. If the attention isn't there, then it's generated somehow and people like myself (when we were married) and her parents enabled this. Everyone else saw it for what it was and told me later about how "Cry Wolf" syndrome kicked in for those around me.

They were my friends and were supportive, but saw that and didn't say anything at the time or would try to and I wasn't receptive to the feedback.

It sounded like you "rescued" your wife and had the whole "White Knight Syndrome" thing going. Women that don't need rescuing are wonderful. Believe me. It's awesome to be dating someone that doesn't have huge insecurities and doesn't want anything from me other than my company.

Does your wife generate drama? Does she create crisis to get those close to her and around her to "jump"?

I repeated what she said... She woke right up and said, "OMG I'm so sorry, I wasn't awake!" I tried to pull away but she was holding my arm pretty tight. I was trying not to just cry and hyperventilate. She kept saying she was sorry. I asked a few things about the current status of her and OM. She said there has been zero contact since the last semi-spiteful email from him - right after NC call. Asked her a couple more things... she was still holding my arm. She finally let go and I got up and had a drink of water. Got back in bed and said, let's try that again, asked her to say my name, and cuddled up again. Woke up awhile later and wanted to just get on with my morning. She was super-apologetic this morning, saying she couldn't imagine how much it hurts... Even kept calling on her way to work. Asking if I'm OK, saying it's a dumb question. Told her it was just a reminder of where we're at. Told her I didn't think it was a huge setback just a reminder of where we're at. I told her that I'm not much less OK than I've been for the last month.

I dunno, at least there's real remorse in there I think. That's more than I get most of the time. She's sending an IM apology as I write this. She's so reluctant to apologize in normal life, I have to admit that it feels good to hear it. Lordy, my love bank is running low.

Pomdbd3, you make some very good points. I've asked many of my friends pretty pointedly if this makes sense to pursue reconciliation. In fact, it was my brother and his girlfriend who asked if I would right after D-day. I didn't think I would at the time, so I asked them and they immediately said yes. This kinda got me thinking it might be possible. Since then I think everyone I know thinks I should try, with the exception of this friend. This friend has seen all the crazy behavior during the affair and has been lied to and abused many times through this process, so she's seeing my wife in a very different light than other friends and family.

From where I sit today, I think it's going to be tough to achieve what I want out of this. She'll have to make some pretty significant changes and stick with them for the long haul. She's done this in the past, but then came to really really resent it. It's so hard to figure out who she is through this. I can only wait and see how this goes over the coming months. I have no intention of sticking around in a crap marriage, but I think there was enough good in the past to warrant my best efforts. I think I need to just set my boundaries, renegotiate our relationship with her, and stick with the boundaries. If she can't do it, then, well, she can't do it.

Pretty uneventful day today. Wife had her first talk with Dr. Harley this morning. She seemed like she was in a good mood afterward, so that's good. Had a pleasant evening with my wife and kids last night. When she got home from work, asked how I was doing, kept apologizing for the GIANT semi-asleep blunder of the previous night. Boy, I could get used to this apologizing stuff. Amazing how it makes the other person feel better? Has been thanking me more and more for the little stuff. Asked me to just come sit next to her last night instead of running around doing laundry etc. Cuddled up in bed and slept well. Could be the fog is receding a little. Her communication is improving bit by bit too. I'm celebrating a low anxiety day. I'm feeling strong and determined. The next big step is to actually get going with my life. Hard not to obsess.

Looking back at how bleak I've felt over the previous couple days, I know this is a temporary secession of anxiety, but welcome all the same. Date night tonight!

Zen: Sorry haven't caught up on your thread...busy hanging with the wife. I'll try to catch up soon.

Keep the faith...and stay Steve McGhandi!

That's a very good reason my man. Have a great weekend!

Well if I was contemplating starting a recovery thread, I think that all went away last night.

We had a date night. It started out pretty nice, a couple beers and some food while we waited for a few other friends to arrive. We hung out with the friends for awhile, then they went home and we went to another bar. I had one more beer and called a couple cigarettes. I'm not a smoker and the second cigarette made me nauseous. I stopped drinking at that point. My wife kept drinking. We were talking to some guy there and ended up chatting with him all evening. He and his friends were ready to leave and my wife got his phone number so we could join them at a party. She then started telling me that this is how she graciously declines offers from men while she's at the bars. I asked if we could not talk about it, trying to avoid relationship talk, and specifically THIS ISSUE!?!? She kept going with it, I guess trying to prove that she had boundaries. She said that Dr. Harley had suggested this step to her. I couldn't figure out what that had to do with anything, kept asking if we could talk about it later. She said this was the 4th step on the action plan Dr. Harley had recommended. She said some of the other steps were bullsh*t. She launched into a diatribe about how he didn't know how to handle her, she was too unique for his experience. She was basically implying that he didn’t know how to help her specifically, almost like she was too smart for him. She was pretty toasted and I was pretty sober at this point. The arrogance was too much for me and I lost my temper and asked if we could just go home. She started getting super angry back, blaming me for ruining the progress when I finally said "I'M DONE! I can't do this anymore!" She took off for the car and wouldn’t unlock the my door. I should have asked for the keys, but I was already too upset to think straight. She tried to drive off without me, she had had quite a few drinks at this point. I kind of stood in front of the car and calmly asked her if she'd take me home. She demanded that I be rational?! I said I would be. I got in and we FLEW down the road. She was demanding that I pack my things and move out. I didn't say much of anything. We got home and she was demanding that I leave. I just said I'm staying and going to bed. She started yelling and insulting and demanding that I leave, asking why I always made her leave (?!) She said she would call the police if I didn't leave. This is the second time she has threatened this. I aked her what she was going to tell them? She said that she was going to go to a hotel. I said you're probably going to the OM's house. She said she hasn't been able to talk to him and she just wanted to know if he was OK, but she couldn't ask that. I said something about her sleeping with another man and she came over to the bed and started hitting me. I just covered up and laid there. She kept yelling at me, finished packing then left. Haven't heard from her since.

Soooooo, that's where I'm at now. I think I'm done. Again. For me, it's the arrogance that seals the deal.

Zen.

All I got so say about "date nite" is fa-a-a-a-a-a-a-c-c-c-c-k.

That SUCKS! Had an old philosophy professor who once said alcohol was like truth serum. Or "liquid courage" as he called it in another context.

On the one hand her quoting Harley when she's drunk, well that's a good thing. But bashing him, calling herself smarter, bad-mouthing his techniques...well, not good.

And getting all angry with you, threatening, etc., well, again, NOT GOOD!

Maybe it's time to go dark. Head to Plan B, giver her a taste of reality and protect what little love you have left for her? Don't know what to tell you my friend. I glanced over your previous days but really it was your last post that caught my attention.

Seems like you take a few steps forward, then a big step back. Then more baby steps forwards...

You need to do some serious Steve McGhandi soul-searching at this point in your relationship Zen.

Do you think she's playing you? Do you think she's had contact with the OM? You still got her under the super-snoop microscope? Something just doesn't smell right in denmark...

Hang in there buddy. Keep posting what you are feeling. I should have more time to read and catch up here in next few days. Monday morning for sure...

Be strong!

Well, i think this recovery was the real deal, but when things got really bad last night, I kinda think she started using the arguement as an excuse to go back. Take the easy way out. Thing is, I didn't really do anything out of line until she had said enough ridiculous things that I couldn;t take it. i just said, "I'm Done." This was the LB that broke the camel's back I guess.

I'm feeling like I'm done. I'm sure there's some love in there somewhere, but I don;t think it's enough anymore.

It seems to me that going to a bar was a very poor choice for a date night.

Yup. Seems to be a pattern here, eh? I don't think she's willing to make that change. I don't think she's willing to make very many changes at all. That's why I don't think this can work.

I have lowered my standards trying to save this. Time to raise them again and get going.

Nope. You didn't lower your standards. You were Plan A-ing your tail off. You were Steve McGhandi. You were strong and improved YOURSELF.

...and she just kept being her.

Well, some of it was a genuine effort to change hang-ups and friction points between us. I've always been a non-drinker. I thought by drinking responsibly with her, that'd be just one area where we could connect and have fun. I'm not drinking as responsibly as I should and she most definitely isn't right now. It's certainly not helping us work on our marriage.

I have continually lowered the bar on acceptable communication from her, accepting verbal abuse and allowing behavior I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. She's barely involved in our children's life right now. I've allowed her to come back over and over without many real changes from her. I've allowed her to destroy our family, and was still willing to forgive. I am still willing to forgive. I have to someday.

I'm done with Plan A. I'll continue with Plan ME and Kids.

I don't think I'll even attempt a Plan B. I think Plan D with the knowledge that she can't make the changes I need to be happy in our marriage. She's not the one anymore. I guess if there was a miracle and she was able to really turn her life around before the divorce went through, I might think twice, but that seems so unlikely to me.

I just don't think I've got anything left to give. I don't think I love her enough anymore. I DEFINITELY don't like her at all right now. I never thought she would hit me? I never thought it would come to this.

Oh so tired. She just called and apologized. Started out a little defensive just saying it was so hurtful that I said I was done. I continued to stand up for myself and my boundaries and she became more apologetic and remorseful. Same pattern over and over. What am I doing wrong? Did I blow this? When I read about false recoveries, they mention over and over that they let them in the door too quickly. We made good progress over the last 2½ weeks, it was just this arrogance last night and every time it pops up its head that I simply can't take it. I told her this again. She said she was sorry, it was not her intent(!?).

I feel like the spouse of an alcoholic. I know Dr. Harley tries to differentiate between the addict comparisons and affair behavior while still drawing some obvious connections. Does anyone else wanna enumerate on that point?

I want to give it another chance, but I'm dangerously close to losing the energy to do it. My friends and family have reached the end of their ropes this time. I’m officially embarrassed at wanting to try.

She insists that she spent the night alone.

I think I know the answer to this but I lack the energy to articulate it right now. Any suggestions are welcome!

Oh and of course the verbal and physical abuse... that's a tough one.

Ditto.

She doesn't want to do the hard work. That's why she vilified Harley. Like typical WS's, she just wants it to be over.

All the crap she did to you, more of her covering up and taking the onus off of her and on you. Just doesn't want to do the hard work. Because she really isn't rock bottom and completely honest.

Maybe you just need to work on a R, if you so choose, from a distance. Start over as these two new people, and see if you really even like who the other person is any more.

I could really use some advice on this. If my wife wants to come back, I think I'm just making it too easy. I know there are some differing views on these boards about this, but I want some good solid advice.

I can't keep doing this with her attitude as it is. She says the right things, but does not live it. I am thinking of letting her come back, but she will sleep in a different room while we see if she can live within my boundaries.

My boundaries:

Follow instructions given during session with Dr. Harley.

No more arrogance.

No more bars for awhile.

Control your drinking and no drinking and driving.

Spend time with your children.

Follow MB guide to recovery.

I'm thinking of doing sort of a probationary period for our marriage. She can be in this home as long as she's not involved with the other man. She needs to earn my love and forgiveness because it has been eroded to a tiny fragment at this point. I will continue to Plan A, but in a pretty reserved manner.

Does this sound reasonable?

As long as she is willing to follow complete transparency, tell you where she is, shut down all her email and Internet access, change phone numbers, GPS on her phone, and any other requests you have. If she doesn't have the humility to accept these and your other conditions, she isn't ready to make your marriage work.

Yes, humility is what I need, and I only see it when she's afraid I'll dump her.

I don't think I'll go to Plan B after this. It would probably just be divorce proceedings. I'm prepared to go an attorny to discuss my options. I was going to do that tomorrow anyway. If I do, I will still leave the door open for my marriage, but I can't keep going like this any longer. It's up to her to take the steps. If she can win me back, great. If not, I have my answer.

Had a little more conversation with my wife. She is glad I'm willing to listen to her. Apologized again for the date night.

I'm feeling a little more resolved to stick with it. I need to remember why I wanted to try to save this marriage after D-day. There was so much good worth saving. I'm just concentrating on the negative right now. I think I need to establish some boundaries which allow us to concentrate on the positive aspects of our marriage.

I will be pretty firm with the boundaries tonight, but I think I need to make sure to express hope and love and commitment as well.

Once more into the breach!

Zen: Caught up on your thread this morning. Man, rough times my friend! The rollercoaster went from the typical up and down to that crazy one that cork-screws you upside down! Ick.

I can only imagine what it must be like to have a wife that is fine one moment, then bat-poop crazy the next. Must drive you nuts! From what you have posted here I believe cat had some great advice: complete transparency, limit internet, track the phone, gps the car, keylog the computer, following Harley principles...everything she can do to SHOW you that she is making an effort.

Lay it all out on the line for her. Heck, even sit down and write up a contract for her -- this is what I will do for the marriage (kiddos, house, family, me, you) and this is what you (she) MUST do for the marriage (Harley, limit abuse, transparency, etc.). Set your boundaries and set the bar high.

And if she fails to reach that bar let her know you will be asking her to leave the house, for you families sake.

Don't make ultimatums, don't threaten divorce proceedings, just let her know if she can't live within your boundaries you don't want her living in the same house as you.

I strongly encourage you to reasearch Plan B more before heading to Plan D.

Do you think you wife is "playing" you? Just throwing you enough of a bone to get you to let your defenses down? Could she still be in contact with the OM? Or might there be yet another man who has entered the picture? Tell us what snooping you are doing?

Be strong, and set those boundaries. Set the bar high! Challenge her to help herself and really WORK on things. We are there for you Zen!

Thanks DNU1 and Cat for the advice.

As far as playing me? No I don't think so. I just don't think she'd want to come right back to the table and be so remorseful if she was playing. She insists that she has not contacted The Dude for the entire time. I am continuing to monitor her, but I am not interested in being a superspy. Thankfully, Dr. Harley's advice was to that effect too: Transparency is important, but look for the signs in her attitude and behavior. Really the date night was going great until she started talking about relationship stuff while drunk. I was the one who finally blew up with, "I'm done!" This sent her off the deep end.

It is her arrogant attitude that really hits the nerve for me. I keep telling her this. When she is being gentle and friendly and contrite, I can imagine this working. When she is arrogant and cocky, I want to be far far away from her. She said this attitude is so she doesn't have to feel like sh*t all the time. I understand that, but I told her I would like her to think how it effects me and US.

We had a friendly family-oriented evening last night. She was constantly asking me how I'm doing, looking at me with puppy dog eyes. Same thing that got her back in the door last time. When we got home from dinner and put the kids to bed, we sat down and had the talk. I had written out a list of boundaries. I told her that these were bottom line boundaries for me. She said she understood. I told her that I think her arrogance is insecurity in disguise. She insisted that she does not think she knows better that Dr. Harley, that it wasn’t her intention. She said she has trouble being sensitive to others feelings sometimes. I said, yes, and it's something that hurts me and others around her.

She's super-ashamed about the hitting. Funny thing is, intellectually I know how terrible that was, but it doesn't bother me nearly as much as the arrogance. I told her this.

She brought out her notes from her call to Dr. Harley. We talked about them. He mostly just gave her some steps to start healing the pain of the affair for me. She agreed to go through the steps. It was a very good talk, painful but cathartic. Her biggest fears are that I won't get over it and that we won't reestablish romantic love.

I think she's starting to commit to the big picture again. This morning talking about helping with the kids more, how they recharge her batteries. Both talked about being selfish and taking too much before the affair, her saying that she took it way too far (YUP!!!).

Last night she told me that I was a near perfect husband... as close to it as they come. Well, that does help the ego. She is taking complete ownership of the affair. There is a lack of romantic connection for her, and that’s a scary thing for me. Need to make a zillion deposits in someone's love bank when I don't even like her half the time. Well, I'm recommitted to trying. I will continue to give it my best effort.

Hang in there Zen. The rollercoaster is heading up that hill again...to better place right now.

You mentioned in my thread about the nitty-gritty details of the affair:

"This is the thing my wife dreads the most. I'm not sure I want to know! But Dr. Harley gave it to her as the second step for our immediate recovery. Scares the crud out of me, but he said it is for that exact purpose: Helps the BS just move on. Man, I just don't think I'm ready for that yet."

I know it's hard to even think about hearing all that crap. And there have been some good threads here dealing with just that subject. But man I have to tell you, the healing process moved on after I got all the details.

For affair#1 those details were like ripping open the initial wounds of the affair. My wife did things with the OM sexually that she refused to do with me!

It really hurt to hear that, but wife and OM were intimate for a very long time and their relationship was getting 30+ hours of together time weekly. She resented him later and was very regretful. As much as I didn't want to hear those things, I *needed* to hear them in order to move on. And after I heard and processed that info I was able to move on...

Affair#2 the nitty gritty was WAY less than I had anticipated. The hole "can't get it up" and "sex just normal, nothing special" was just what I wanted to hear...okay, probably better than I was ever expecting. And again, it was good to get that out so I could move past it.

Maybe that's the approach you need to concentrate on -- openness and honesty? Get all this crap out on the table so you can see what you are trying to forgive her for!

I agree that I probably need to do this, I just dread it. I feel like our sex life was very mutually satisfying. I haven't talked about this here, but she's the only woman I've ever been with, so there's an additional loss of innocence and intimacy. Our marriage has helped me feel like a strong, desired man, when before I was incredibly shy and had pretty low self-esteem. I'm a pretty good looking person on a totally superficial level, but my dysfunctional abusive childhood contributed to a distinct lack of confidence and self worth. Falling in love with this beautiful smart woman and having her so head-over-heals for me helped me gain the confidence I have today.

I know the OM is not much of a catch. I have no idea what their sex life was like, but I get the impression that it was pretty satisfying. I'm not really intimidated by any lack of ability or performance on my part, it's the thrill of the new and forbidden that intimidates me. So to hear the details in her current state, I feel like she'll be looking at it with that lens. That's scary as hell for me. Even now we are having pretty good sex, but I sense there's an emotional piece missing from her and that's hard enough to take.

My wife has committed to following the steps given to her by Dr. Harley, so we will go through that step, but I would like to wait until we're a little more connected.

Yesterday was a pretty good day. Some good talk about the kids and family in the morning. In the afternoon, she told me I was a wonderful person. It's weird, it's nice to hear that after being dragged through the coals, but it's sad to hear that and know that she doesn't have much romantic attachment to me. We had a nice dinner although our three year old was incredibly whiney. At one point my wife got angry because I forgot to tell her we needed cream for the coffee when she was at the store. It's funny how these things seem WAY worse when feelings are so raw. I told her I didn't know we were out and she had no reason to be angry with me and to let it go. We recovered pretty quickly. After the kids were in bed we just watched TV and chatted. It was a really nice mellow time with some laughs and then some SF (still don't know what that stands for, anyone?) and all night cuddling. Overall, we're back on the ride up the rollercoaster.

Zen, have I recommended this book to you yet? I think it would be a great resource for you two to get back to intimacy and to even take it beyond what you've had before. Plus, it's a lot of fun!

I've been talking with a friend who cheated on her husband about two years ago. When this first came out, she helped me see some of the other side. It's weird, but when we first talked, it sounded like she and her husband were struggling although committed. Just in the last two months, the tone has turned much more positive and committed from her. It's really nice to see. Before the affair she said she had a lot of doubts about monogamy and marriage. Now she knows she wants to spend the rest of her life with her husband, and has found great strength and pride in solving these huge issues with her partner. Pretty inspiring to hear.

Strangely, I'm having lunch with a very old friend today (she was the drummer in my first band - she was 16! Always been like a little sister). When she was over this weekend, she told me that she had cheated on her longtime boyfriend and she identified with my wife. This was really interesting because I think of this friend as a very solid, honest person. She said it was like she turned into a different person, could lie at the drop of a hat. I'm going to pick her brain a little bit more today (jeez that's a gross phrase).

Hi Catperson,

You did recommend that book and I got it! I had one of the scenarios all set up for Friday nights' date night. It was gonna be epic. Instead, we had a giant fight and my wife left the house. Soooo, I'll give it another try.

I think she'll really respond to these - she's more adventurous than me in the bedroom, so this should appeal to her desire to mix it up a bit. Thanks for the recommendation!

What does SF stand for?!

Sexual Fun.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah ha! I was having the hardest time with the 'F'.

Thanks!

My wife was my first and only also. She had a long time boyfriend in HS and they had SF (sexual fulfillment, by the way). When she had affair #1 I thought about revenge sex, but decided against it. Always felt that my wedding vow was sacred to me. After this affair I never really thought about revenge sex, just thought about what it would be like to be single and on the dating scene again.

After dropping some pounds and working hard on ME, I'm pretty confident that I'd find someone. No worries there.

Hang in there Zen. Enjoy the ups, cause you know the downs are coming just around the bend. Prepare for them and stay Steve McGhandi!

Another pretty pleasant and normal night. If anything, this is making it so the regular drudgery of work life and whining kids etc, just pales in comparison to the marriage stress. It makes everything seem comparatively easy. My wife and I are working like a perfect team on kids and household matters right now. It's refreshing. Had a really nice evening laughing and hanging out after the kids were in bed.

She started cooking and planning the menu for the week. She's starting to remember what she likes about being a mom and a wife, I think. Of course I'm wondering when she intends to start working on her MB stuff and the assignments from Dr. Harley...

I mentioned my old friend with whom I had lunch yesterday... It was a really good conversation. She said our conversations have made her look at her own affair in a very different light and made her think about things she hadn't thought about in a long time. She kept saying that she was just amazed that she was capable of inflicting so much pain on someone else and giving into such horrible and selfish behavior. She is very clear-headed about it now. Let's hope our WWs achieve this level of clarity at some point!

Feeling overwhelmed with work and sick kids right now, but I am feeling more hopeful about my wife.

Obsessing... should be working...

One of the things my friend who had the affair said: She lied easily, over and over, even after she was back with her boyfriend. She said as long as she knew she could get away with it, she would do it.

This is nagging at me pretty badly today. Things are going pretty well with my wife, but I have trouble believing that there has been no contact with OM, especially after spending the weekend alone.

I want to take a certain confidence in Dr. Harley's recommendation to pay keen attention to her attitude and the signs that I picked up while the affair was active. It's my hope that this will be the real proof in the pudding. I hope my eyes aren't clouded by what I want to see.

Ugh, this is going to take forever to rebuild trust.

Are you keylogging?

No, she doesn't use her home computer much. I have her email passwords and access to her phone. I know it's dirt simple to sneak around outside that.

I'm not going to turn into a superspy. Sooner or later I'll find out I think, then I'll go from there.

Ugh.

OK, climbing out of my little dip this morning. I've given myself some time to just work through this and try to hang in there. I'll rely on the plan when everything else seems too hard. Gotta avoid LBs while sticking with my boundaries.

I told my wife I'd be setting up more sessions with Dr. Harley. This was my way of gently nudging her to get going on her stuff. She said she needs to create her NC Plan and send it to me.

Zen, just for reference sake, I'm snooping the heck out of my wife even to this day! I check her e-mail three, four times a day. Have keylogger on all our computers and I'm not saying about flexispy.com *cough cough* but that software kicks tail!

If it *were* installed on her smartphone I could see all incoming and outgoing texts (complete with messages) and log of incoming and outgoing phone calls. Nice. It's peace of mind. Granted, the OM stopped calling / texting her back Thanksgiving, but it's nice to have that peace of mind.

If he WERE in town, you can bet I'd have GPS in her car and voice recorder also. I trust her about as far as I can throw her...and she's little, me, pretty strong. I'm just saying...

Sigh. Yep, I think I'm going to have to take some more steps. I'm just feeling too insecure. I just sent her an email talking about this:

"Hi,

I’m having a rough day. Last week and yesterday I was talking to (friend) about us. She said that she had a yearlong affair while she was with (her boyfriend). She said she looks back on it now and feels like she became a different person. Felt she could lie at the drop of a hat even though she had always considered herself an honest person. She said that as long as she felt she could get away with it, she continued to lie. She felt that she wanted to maintain her relationship with (boyfriend) because they were such close ‘friends’, but that this other person represented all these new feelings and she wanted to keep going with that at the same time.

This is what I’m struggling with. You spent the whole weekend away. I have no real way of knowing if you’ve been in contact with OM. I’m worried that you will just tell me what I want to hear so you can keep going with OM.

I saw a message on your phone that said something to the effect of, “Hi. I miss you. I want to see you.”

It’s been a really good couple of days for me, so I certainly don’t want to sabotage it, but we need to reestablish trust, and it’s just not there right now.

I know this is uncomfortable to talk about, but I’m sure you understand that I have every reason to want to. Can you help me with this?"

Does this sound reasonable or am I just asking for trouble? I know, I'm supposed to post first, then send. Feeling cr*ppy.

This was her response. made me feel better. Sorta.

"I'm sorry you're having a rough day. you're right - I can't prove that I wasn't with OM this weekend except that I felt like cr*p all weekend. I suppose you could call up Whistle Blower and ask around to find out if she knows the where about or activities of OM lately because I do not and can not prove where he was this weekend. I wish I had a better answer.

that message on my phone does not say "I miss you" and I thought it was my brother (some stuff loaded weird) before I realized it was just other friends from that blues band I'd go watch - if you log in to my myspace and look at my inbox, you will see a similar message. they're nice people and I've had fun watching them play. I haven't been around and they've sent me a few messages.

I hope that helps.

I know this is hard for you. it's hard for me too. I feel like I'm on a short leash and that if I want to do something, not only is there a trust issue, but you think I don't prioritize my family which makes me feel guilty about wanting anything social. so, I'm trying my best and I'm really sorry you're having a hard day - I hope you feel better. really I do.

besides this weekend - where I worked a lot, I'm not sure when I would have seen OM. I didn't check in friday night until 2:30 or worse, worked the next night until late and turned around to work the next day, then came home. not very exciting. texted you inbetween.

what I do think about when I feel like it's impossibly broken is apartment pricing. that's about as bad as I get. really."

That doesn't sound too bad.

Do you ever wonder if your desperation to save what you THOUGHT you had, is overriding the blatantly obvious wrting on the wall? "This person has hurt you too deeply! They are so reluctant to fix it... Why would you want to continue?!!!"

Sometimes it's only my children keeping me going. Today is kinda one of those days. I just don't like her in some ways. you want someone who has hurt you so deeply to just want to make it all better. Why doesn't she? What the h*ll is wrong with her!?

She seems to get all grumpy when we talk about things, yet when I try to let her go, she begs to come back. WTF? It's the attitude, I swear. She's had aspects of that attitude all along in our marriage but I'm starting to just HATE it. It's like there isn't a humble bone in her body until she gets desperate. How can this be saved? Why should it? Just because it's harder to move on? That's not a good reason. Sometimes I forget why I'm trying.

Glad to hear you say that Cat, because the thing about the short leash bugs me. I just had more chat where she seemed sorta terse - one of her favorite emotions. I just want humbleness given the situation.

On the positive side, she said sorry several times, right? I think I believe her, so who knows.

Just feeling depressed today for some reason. Well, obvious reasons. I've tried to be strong for so long and it just gets hard after awhile.

Ah heck, *pulling up my bootstraps* She's in the sink or swim position, not me! I've got the kill switch right here in my hands. That's a good feeling. At least there's that feeling of a tiny bit of control. Gotta take comfort in knowing I'm doing my best. I am.

So how do you get outta this stuck mode and start paying attention to the rest of your life? Is there a drug to be prescribed for that?

Short leash...heck YES! She needs to be on a short leash. And the reply by her was a step in the right direction. Short leash means you are setting the bar high my friend. Nothing wrong with that.

I remember something Melody told me a long while back -- words are cheap. Sorry is a good thing to hear from WS, but ACTIONS speak louder than words.


You don't needs drugs Zen. I avoided the anti-depressants because I was afraid they would make me feel numb to all this. As much as I hated it, I *needed* to feel the pressure and weight of this affair on my soul. I needed to see my true feelings through all of this. But that's just me. Never liked the idea of meds.

Her attitude...yep, sucks when the WS is arrogant, unwilling, selfish, etc., but that's what waywards do. You are probably still seeing the withdrawal and maybe even a little fog still. Patience.

One thing struck me when reading your e-mail to your WW -- you sound a lot like me! I was in supervisory roles for 20+ years. Saw my self as a "people person" not a "business person" -- worked at unversities and didn't like to "throw people away." Whats that all mean? Looking back I think I was too nice, let people run over me and did things because I wanted to avoid conflict.

Does this sound like Zen? (maybe that's why we get along so well on these threads?)

Start with something small in your mind. Sit your wife down and say, "i really need this from you...I need this to help me with my sanity and being able to cope with all of this..."

It can be any little thing, but make it little for now -- but something outside of her box. Be calm, be McGhandi and just make the statement and sit back and see what she does. If she comes through for you, priase the crap out of her! Thank her up and down, and say, "this means a lot to me." And leave it at that. Don't be needy, clingy, etc.

If she doesn't come through, re address a week or so later. See where that gets you. Don't be demanding, be subtle, but ask for what you NEED.

I think the difference between your wife and mine is this -- I'm driving the recovery bus and my wife is standing four rows back. she's there, and can see the road ahead...but also the road behind. She's just a passanger right now trying to decide where to sit.

Your wife is driving the bus with her arrogance and attitude. You are standing next to her with your hand on the wheel, and have a little say in where the bus is going, but you can't wrestle control away from her. You've almost gotten off the bus a few times, as she has stopped and opened the door...but at the last moment she shuts the door and drives on.

I think you've got to find a ways to sit next to her and drive the bus together. She needs to give up some control of that wheel, and you need just a little more to make yourself sane and keep you on the bus.

It's early and I'm probably rambling...

Take care and hang in there. You and I are both miles from where we started, and that's a good thing!

The prescription for that is to shake up your life, get out of your rut. Why don't you two find a charity at which the two of you can volunteer? It's an amazing way to spend time together - you see each other in the best light, it's inspiring, you feel better, it gives you something to talk about...and of course you're helping someone (or something) else in the process.

Have I given you my list of things to do?

Yeah, I don't want anti-depressants for the same reason. I've never had insurmountable emotional or mental issues and I think I can move through this healthfully. I have to admit though, this has pushed me further than I've ever been pushed. There are times when I think I'm going to break. Last night was one of those nights.

My wife had a weekly meeting after her regular hours last night. I took the kids to dinner with my brother for his birthday. The plan was that she would meet us at the restaurant after her meeting. We talked about this several times over the last two days. We got our food, ate talked, etc. Texted my wife that we would order her food if she was on her way. This was about 7:30. The kids normally go to bed at 8:00. My daughter started complaining about a stomachache, and there's not a peep from my wife. Daughter was getting really whiney with a painful tummy, so I packed the kids up, apologized to my brother and headed home. Got home, daughter threw up and felt better, and I put them to bed. Got a text from my wife at about 9:00: "We're still goofin around... if that's bad and you want me to leave, let me know, I'm at silly *restaurant* ..."

I didn't reply. I was so furious. As I as putting the kids to bed I was sure my brain was going to break. The only thing that made me feel better was thinking about getting her out of my life. It took me about an hour to calm down and just settle on these pleasant feelings of divorce. Took some sleep aids and finally drifted off to sleep at about midnight.

She got home at about 1:00, was trying to make small talk. I could barely respond. She got in bed and was silent. I was wide awake but finally fell asleep. Sure enough, she was super-cuddly this morning, got up before I did to make coffee (she NEVER does this) helped get the kids ready... just so pleasant and helpful. It's that fear of kicking her to the curb that inspires her to be nice. When I'm nice, she just seems to fall right back into the selfish pattern. Being nice gets me nothing. You're right DNU1, I'm a conflict avoider.

Time to firm up. I feel like it erodes some of the Plan A stuff, but talk is cheap and I'm tired of listening to her hollow words. Just tired of this whole mess. Starting to really worry if I can forgive her. Read so many posts yesterday of people in recovery who are absolutely beating their heads against the wall. Many of them are a year or two down the road and they sound just like I do 3 weeks down the road.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

So it's when she's scared, after she's f*cked up that she springs into action. What does this say? Is this typical? Instead of apologizing about last night, she's just going to pretend it didn't happen? I mean I guess this is an example of actions speaking louder than words...

She sent this to me this morning. First thing on her list from Dr. Harley:

ok, so I've been working on this a bit over a few days here and there. I'm trying to think of anything I have missed. let me know what you think.

Phone
I have deleted all voicemails, texts and contact information regarding OM. I do not have his number memorized and could not call him. If contact were made, I would immediately hang up and call Husband. If I got a voicemail or text, I would give it to Husband to review and delete without reviewing it myself.

Email
I have deleted all email contact information and where applicable have blocked being able to receive emails. I would notify Husband immediately of any emails and have Husband go in and delete them without reading them myself. I do not have OM's contact information memorized and will not try to contact him.

Internet
All public (facebook, myspace) avenues to contact me have been blocked/made private. I do not seek out contact through these avenues and would not respond to contact via these avenues. I would notify Husband immediately of any contact.

Mutual friends/acquaintances
I do not really talk to the mutual friends at this point, but if at some time I were to, I would not inquire about OM and would ask to not be informed if information was volunteered. I would notify OM of any information I was told and how I handled it.

Common places
I know that OM goes to Renners, The Red Barn and Tryon Creek. I will not go to those places. In Our City it is possible that we could be at a grocery store or something at the same time and I would promptly leave without contact or acknowledgment. I would notify Husband immediately if something were to occur.

It's hard Zen. I constantly find myself thinking "I shouldn't say that...", but I've got to break through.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't your angry outbursts come after a bit of alcohol? And when she's had little too much to drink?

Next time you are both stone-cold sober and she pisses you off say you need some time alone and make it clear with your body language that you aren't happy.

Then head some where and get your head on straight, compose a quick plan. After you have gathered yourself return and say you piece to her. Don't let her draw you in to a fight or argue with you at all...just say, "look, I'm really upset and need to get this out..." and be patient, calm and just tell her what's bothering you.

And when you are done, and have had your say, then leave the room and take some ME time (you time). If she follows and tried to be snuggly, say sorry, tell her you are furious and don't want to AO with her and just need a few moments to yourself.

Then just see what happens from her end. Give her time to let that all sink in.

My wife did the LB, disrespectful judgement / passive aggressive thing a few weeks back and it made me furious (I think i posted on that night). I was initially reserved and didn't want to confront her...but needed to. I walked back to the bedroom and was calm, but visibly upset and let her have it. Not mean, but told her those actions were unacceptable. Then I went back downstairs.

That seemed to be a turning point in our recovery. That was the night where I realized that if we did not save our marriage, well, I was okay with it!

Something changed that night. Something changed in me and in her. She saw me upset and fed up. And I think that had an impact on her and forced her to try harder at our recovery.

Good luck to you my friend. I know this is hard. But at least we have each other and this forum. The first affair, 14 years ago, I had none of this and wandered through the darkness for 10 long months...ICK!

Strength!

She's being super-chatty this morning, offering to pick up the kids tonight, showering me with small talk.

I'm being really cool and stand-offish. I don't want to play these mind games. I just want to be me. Oh dear god I'm so tired of this.

I guess I'll try to strike a balance between the two? I dunno.

Tell her you are pissed about that situation (last night?),and tell her you sense she's trying to be "all nice" just to smooth things over.

TELL HER! You will be amazed how that weight will be lifted off your chest. Don't save all your anger and frustration for when you have had a few drinks...DO IT NOW!

Her latest email:

"you are really laying low today. good job."

I have a ton of work on my plate, so I think this is her impression - I'm being uncommunicative because of this. I dunno, she's going really overboard with the sweet texts and chit chat today. She KNOWS she sc*wed up. We're having lunch and going to a notary (to sign a second deed on our house {in the event of divorce, I want to have this all cleaned up so I can keep the house}). I think I'll tell her after the lunch that I'm angry. I know it's childish, but I'm enjoying this too much.

Concerning my last post:

Funny thing is, I've had plenty of days where I've consciously avoided much contact with her. She was just so buried in her selfish little world, it didn’t even sink in! She was probably grateful I wasn;t bothering her! Now that she's feeling needy and a little scared, she's noticing. Very interesting demonstration of fog vs. scared.

Exactly why you have to be strong and decisive and MAD with a WS. It's the only language they'll understand from you.

I had lunch with her, same kind of aloof attitude from me. She was nervous and chatty, similar to when we were first dating! Even after the lunch, she called me twice right after we left the parking lot to ask if I was OK and tell me a favorite song was on the radio. It's interesting, I'm worried I'm playing a game, but it's pretty easy to be this way after so many setbacks... Am I slipping from as state of conflict into withdrawal? I dunno, maybe. I think if I saw her making some real effort, I'd probably be more than ready to reengage. I just want her to do more of the work. I want her to stop slipping back into selfish mode so easily. The No Contact Plan was nice.

Steve McGandhi is coming into his own.

You want to be calm and cool, but don't fall in to the trap of avoiding her and holding back your feelings. Remember, role model behavior that you want her to show towards you = open and honest!

Steve McGandhi is a good thing, but remember the Ghandi part...communicate! Tell the world, er, your wife what's on your mind! Being quiet to make a point is okay, I've done that, but when it leads to you holding back your true feelings that is a very bad thing. Repeat, very bad thing!

Isn't it interesting how the shoe is now on the other foot? Your wife clearly is feeling your distance and displeasure with her actions. She sees how this is having effect on you. Clearly the fog is lifting and she is noticing.

Now take advantage of her state of mind and open up and be honest.

[it's great to type this to you because it reminds me to be OPEN and HONEST with my wife! I need this just as much as you do!]

I am convinced that my peaceful tranquil life has somehow fallen into the hands of some a*shole Hollywood producer and he keeps saying, "Not enough drama, not enough craziness! These two are being pushed to their limits... let's push them past!!!"

My wife is on contract with a big hi-tech firm here in town, in their internal marketing dept. It's a job that she got only about 4 months ago when the job market was really hitting the skids, and she managed to land this well-paying job after being at home with the kids for about a year and a half. It was very impressive and a testament to her ambition and work ethic. It's always been a little scary because this is a position covering for someone on maternity leave, but she was led to believe they would keep her on after maternity leave was done.

Well, as of today, they didn't. Because it was a contract, there was no notice, just, "Sorry, we don't need you anymore."

Now I can't help thinking part of my wife's crazy-a*s-midlife-crisis-falling-off-the-planet-party-life-affair episode was brought on by some long-running money stress around here. She always gets way more freaked-out about it than I do.

So here we are. She asked me to go have a couple shots of tequila with her. Now as a recent teetotaler, I am already embarrassed about how prominently alcohol is figuring in this story. But here's another chapter none-the-less. We went to a dive bar nearby, one of my alien wife's haunts, by the way, and sat and talked. She had some shots and beer, I had 2 beers over about 3 hours. I was drinking water for about the last hour and she was headed south. She was getting pretty emotional and started talking about her late teen years. Interestingly, she has kind of reverted to this pre-children time period over and over during this whole thing. She had her son at age 19, so early adulthood ended pretty abruptly for her. So I'm sober and she's drunk and really upset about her job, reminiscing about a time well before me... occasionally apologizing to me for taking me away from work etc. Pretty soon it's time to pick up the kids. So she's smoking in the car and totally drunk and I get the kids, ask her to put out the cig before they get in the car... (The kids have never seen her smoke - she only took it back up in this crisis).

We grabbed some nasty fast food and headed home, wife trying to sober up because I have a deadline for some work and will be working all night on it, so she's on kid duty. After dinner we put the kids in front of the TV and she attacked me in the spare bedroom. We had some intense and long-lasting SF which was pretty dang fun, but a little weird, but overall good I think. Now I’m sitting down to work. See? I'm working.

Anyway, if I had read this 5 months ago, I would have thought this was some crazy trashy family with massively serious issues. A million miles away from my family. But no, this is my little Jerry Springer episode unfolding right here in my home with my family. Wow. Another crazy day. I hope my wife can hold it together. I'm being very supportive. Not feeling a whole lot of stress. I guess I've already faced my worse fears. This ain't nuthin!

Oh, one interesting detail from tonight: She was talking to an acquaintance from the bar and said, "I get really arrogant when I'm drunk..." Looked at me. So there's something getting through. Sheesh. Problem is I'd rather she didn’t get drunk 2 or 3 nights a week. I'd rather she wasn’t acquainted with these bar hags at the local dive bar! There's just so much else to overcome. She's been living this double life long enough I worry she can't come back to what I think is acceptable. I'm willing to compromise and meet her halfway on many things, but alcoholism is unacceptable. OK, just keep forging ahead. There's no end in sight.

So she's going out drinking with a friend again tonight. A completely trustworthy friend who is driving, but COME ON!?!? I brought up the night before and that I was really angry about it. She got massively defensive and said that she was trying to head off being fired today. I said that I thought that's why she was being so nice today, she said, "No I was planning on being nice today!" What?! I swear I can't win. I just want out of this. There's just no end to the misery. Now I get to wait up all night for my drunk wife to return again.

I can't seem to ge any work done. I'm just so tired.

Hmmmmm, your wife's drinking seems to be getting a little out of hand, don't you think?

Having a child @ 19 and not being able to experience life like she would have liked...I see a pattern here.

Could it be your wife felt trapped by her becoming a mother at such a young age? Maybe this affair is her way of re-capturing her youth? Could she be trying to escape the rigors and responsibilities of married life? Of motherhood?

As an example: My wife is 10 years older than her sister. Her parents worked opposite shifts and my wife was forced in to taking care of her younger siblings -- something she regrets to this day. And she wasn't allowed to go away to college, had to live at home and go local. So never really got to experience the freedom she wanted.

IC pointed out that many of the traits my wife liked in the OM related back to her childhood experiences -- OM had freedom, ability to come and go as pleased, no wife/kids to tie him down, good job with good money, care-free life. Throw in fact that my wife turned 40 this summer and it hit her HARD...well, you have seeds of the affair planted, fertilized and watered! Ick.

I'm just pointing this out for you to consider Zen. I know Harley doesn't look much at peoples past, feeling it takes valuable time away from the process of ending affair and recovering marriage. Just something to consider...

My wife's IC suggested she do some small things on regular basis to help her experience that freedom from responsibility -- walk in the park by herself, play a mindless computer game, take a bath with no interruptions -- things to help her relax.

Could this be why your wife likes to hang out @ bars with friends and get drunk? Could she be running from the responsibilities of motherhood and marriage?

This is going to be a fine line for you to walk if this is indeed the case. Too much freedom and she will drift away. Too much control and she may resent you...and drift away.

I could be waaaaaay off here, casuse you know, I'm trying to help you without seeing the complete picture.

Hang in there my friend. Your WW has lots of issues to work through and you know as well as I do that this is a marathon. You are doing great! Keep up the fantastic work.

I'm sorry, but if I was in your shoes, and she told me that she's going back out to a bar, I would tell her 'Then your bags will be packed and waiting for you on the porch when you get back.'

She will never understand anything else. She won't!

The radio station I listen to has a preacher who makes a little blurb every day (it's alternative rock, oddly enough), and today he said (and I printed it out to keep):

Denial of responsibility is the essence of immaturity.

She will never respect you until you respect yourself. Letting her go - yes, letting - out and get drunk 3 times a week is an insult! Stop it!

Hmmmmm. At first I kind of thought Cat has something here. Then I remembered the very wise words of my IC -- if I make threats and demands on my wife I'm just pushing her away. And I'm planting the seeds of resentment and anger. Better to "help her understand" her errors and subtly get her to make the changes herself. Guide her.

Zen, if you at a breaking poing in your relationship, then Cat's recommendation might be a good plan. Only you will know because you sleep next to her every night, not us. Careful with that decision. You are really laying down the gauntlet and need to be willing to head right to PLan B if you make that demand.

I can honestly tell you that if I had made such an ultimatium at a certain point in my wife's affair she would have walked out because of sheer stubbornness. She was foggy and the wayward speak was within her. Make the same demand today and she would likely kiss my [censored] until my nose bled. That's just where she is right now...willing to work on our marriage.

Careful Zen.

Yes DNU1, I think this is exactly as you describe, sort of an early midlife crisis/reaction against motherhood/lack of freedom. This is what I thought it was from the get go, and all her behavior reflects it. Even little things like an ad on TV might portray a stereotypical mom in boring clothes doing laundry. She'll make all kinds of comments about how lame the ad is. I understand her feelings to a point, and I wish we had found some more common ground before it became a crisis, but in the end, these are all decisions she made and she needs to own up to them or run away.

Yes, the drinking is out of control. It's at a level I could never live with in a healthy relationship. But, I agree with DNU1, I need to walk carefully. I have laid out some boundaries and she is respecting them for the most part, like everything else, it's two steps forward, one step back. Actually I think we're at about two steps forward, two steps back. This job stuff couldn't come at a worse time. But, this is adulthood and parenthood. It ain't easy. That's why it's nice to have a team mate.

I'll address the drinking in some subtle ways and see if it slows down when we're out of crisis mode. She wasn't a heavy drinker during most of our years together. Early in our relationship, I laid down the law with drinking and smoking, and I think it just caused this simmering rift in the end. I won't be married to an aloholic though. That's an easy one for me. Tonight's date night will be dinner and a movie. No bar.

Guys, I hope you realize I was speaking with tongue in cheek. You don't just kick people out for acting out.

But I'll reiterate that you need to step up. She won't respect you if you tread so carefully that she can see the track marks on your back as she scoots out the door to the bar.

If you had a 19-year-old daughter who was hitting the bars like she is, what would you do? Why does your wife get off with less? Cos she can leave you?

Look. I'm all for getting the freedom out of your system. But there comes a time when you finally have to say 'OK, I really did a number on my Inner Child. I got to experience the fun I missed out on. It was great. It was terrible. And I can't keep doing this for the rest of my life. For one thing, my liver won't let me. What do I do now?'

Your job, as her husband, is to point out that she's had quite a good run, and it's time to start acting like the grownup she is. If not you, who?

Agreed. There is a fine line between supportive and loving spouse, and doormat. Boundaries are a good thing. Chains are not. I think we are all on the same page here.


Oh, I ran a college residence hall with 450 men for three years...then co-ed hall of 600+. College aged students are VERY different than my wife of 40. If my 19 year old daughter were hitting the bar like that you can bet your britches I'd be hammering on her about her behavior...and HARD!

But hopefully my 40 year old wife of two would have a different perspective. Now when my wife occasionally goes out for dinner and drinks with her 38 year old girlfriend, she's responsible and generally comes home looking for some lovin (which is a good thing). But again, there is a fine line between being social and being a bar regular and abusing alcohol.



Cat, that last statement really hits home! Nice work. The challenge is how to help the wife understand that without DJ-ing her? How to "help her understand" the errors of her way without throwing down an ultimatium? There in lies the challenge our friend Zen has to deal with.

Yes, you want her to stop, but you want her to stop because *she* wants to stop. Not because she's doing it for someone else.

Maybe the "inner child" can come out less destructive ways? Ways that Zen can share with his wife? Date nights are good, as long as the liquid courage remains shelved. Date nights have helped my relationship greatly. I treat her as if I'm wooing her all over again. It's amazing to watch her face light up because I'm paying special attention to her. And she responds with similar attention to me.

Marathon Zen...marathon!

You guys make excellent points. I agree that some middle ground needs to be reached, with date nights, weekends together, just adult activities that are completely outside the kids. I think we're doing a good job of that, but the drinking is just at too high a level. I have no problems with responsibly drinking adults, but this is getting trashed over and over and it's not going to work in the marriage that I want.

I'm trying to remember the principle of 'save the marriage first, work on the marriage after.' This was Dr. Harley's advice as well.

Things are still so fragile and screwy around here that I feel the best course of action is to lead by example. Continue to keep my life together and my children's lives together, continue to grow and move forward. I don't think she's in the affair anymore, so this is another chapter. I'll help her where I can, I'll gently nudge her, but I just don't think making demands of her helps her want to change. I've already laid out some boundaries for the marriage. I will reiterate that alcohol abuse is not acceptable. But I'm not going to be her Dad or her savior. I did that before and it worked for awhile, but eventually she rebelled. If she can't stand up on her own two feet, then she's not going to be a healthy partner. I don't think there is a way to point this out to her without it being a judgment. I think the only thing I can do is to hold her to a certain level, and if she can rise to it, good.

I'm trying to slow everything down on my end. Just be patient and take care of me. I will push her a long a little, make helpful suggestions, try to keep her going with her Dr. Harley sessions. I'll give it more time and more breathing room. I need to stop hanging on every word, every mistake and every tiny bit of progress. The roller coaster is gonna throw me off any moment if I'm not careful.

This may come as a surprise, but my wife got drunk and everything went down the tube again.

I don't want to go into the details right now, but I left her at the bar where she was drunk and crazy last night.

Advice?

Intervention?

OK, I'll try to give the short version because I know my posts are kinda long-winded:

For date night I wanted to do dinner and a movie. My wife wasn't into it. I suggested we go to a brew pub to meet up with my brother and his girlfriend. She liked that idea. I spent the whole evening getting the kids fed, folding laundry, giving them baths, my wife was just on the computer.

Babysitter got here, we went to the pub. It was a nice time for awhile, just relaxed talking and some very good beer and sausages. After awhile my wife starts asking around the table if someone would like to do a shot of whiskey with her. I everyone declines, but finally my brother’s girlfriend gives in. They get back to the table and my wife almost immediately switches into this aggressive party mode. I'm feeling less and less included in the conversation, she's just kinda bulldogging her way through a subject that no one at the table seems to really care about. She keeps drinking more beer and starts getting amorous with me. I think this is our queue to go home! Everyone else went home but she wanted to keep going. She's very amorous and is becoming this person I don't know once again. She suggests that we go find the bar where *so and so* is working. This person was the person she had the one night stand with right before D-day!!!? I'm flabbergasted. I say, "No, I don’t ever want to see that person in my life." She brushes it off, then starts talking about job prospects and starts saying she could become a stripper... This is making me feel so lost and disconnected and she senses it, asks why I'm pulling back. I say that I don’t want to be married to a stripper. She says "I was just kidding around..." I don't think she was. So I'm in a pretty bad place here. We get to a bar, (I'm driving and sober) didn't know it, but this was the bar where the one night stand person works. She walks in and asks if this person is working. Again, I'm flabbergasted, and ask to leave. The bar tender/owner says he fired this person last week and was very grumpy. Wife gets her drinks and sits down, I tell her that I'm amazed that she can't see how this is effecting me, how inappropriate it is. She tries to turn it into a conversation about getting a job here. She's just moving in and out of rationalizations and lies so easily it's astounding. I tell her that her drinking is becoming a big problem and she just brushes it off. I tell her that I would like to go, and the fight starts escalating. She's telling me that I'm ruining our progress at this point, I'm arrogant, everything is black and white with me, trying to rationalize the one night stand... Finally I convince her to go. She's pretty lit. Walking back to the car, she takes one more dig at the subject and I say that it's absurd that she doesn't see how terrible this is. She turns and walks off. I continued to my car and drove home to relieve the babysitter. She called and was crying saying that I left her like a street person and I always get my way and I was Mr. Perfect, and had a silver spoon and she hates me, then hangs up. I text her that I can't come get her because of the kids but please take a cab home. No response. I texted her this morning that I will pick her up if she needs it. No response.

So, here I am again. The chasm between us is just too great. She's very very much still in this other life she has created, She seems to want to crash and burn. I'm at a loss. I just want out at this point.

Zen, It looks like you had a rough time. I have two brothers and a mother in law who have substance abuse problems. Alcohol can be worse than anything.

I would be worried about the substance abuse component in your situation. I think the alcohol is allowing your wife to place herself in jeopardy and is clearly hurting your recovery together.

Is it possible for you to get her some professional help? This is tough for her to see right now, but maybe someone else can mention the impact of the alcohol to her?

I am having a bit of a bad week myself. I just found out I had pneumonia and my WW has been less than supportive. Hang in there and just take it day by day. You are a good person and good father. Remember that it is sometimes one step forward and two steps back.

Oh Zen,

I took more than an hour today catching up on your thread. I ended here at page 39.

On about page 17? or so I already knew where this was heading i am sorry to say. You and I are have been married to the same type of person.

I know the hell you have been through, been there myself. My WW is very hot, party chick, naked hot tubs etc. etc. etc. My thread's first page would give you some insight about how similar our WW's are.

What strikes me very clearly is this:

1. You have grown as a person emotionally by facing and dealing with this crisis. You have gained wisdom and insight that your WW simply does not have. You are in a different place.

2. You are in vastly different places with regard to your maturity. The acting out and drinking are one thing, but your outlooks on life are another. She is still an immature child, angry that you are acting in a responsible manner which only makes her feel guilty for her true ambition; having fun. You on the other hand have grown and realize that fun is an important part of life, but we must accept that challenges are not always fun but are an essential part of maturing as a human being.

3. She is gaming not only you, but herself. When I read that you tried to POJA her time to return home from some dinner with clients between 10PM and you acceded to midnight and then she returned at 2:30 AM, so early in FR (in my opinion,) I was flabbergasted! The desire to hang out at the pub where the ONS occured is a childish smack at your moral authority.

Why does she want to run off the road??? Because you are defining boundaries based on a moral paradigm and she is incapable of living under them. She feels trapped.

She is miserable. She knows what is "right" and wants to be thought of as a woman of rectitude, but a few drinks in her...

In Vino Veritas.

I have some more thoughts on this based on my experiences with my WW who is cut from the same cloth. I will try to catch up later. The alcohol is a problem, yes, but it is only a symptom and a coping mechanism for a far deeper one.

You are a very good man for trying as hard as you have, but in some instances, as it has been my painful experience to know, there are some people who don't want to be saved.

Does she have any family nearby? I can't remember.

I would either call them and ask them to help you with an intervention, or call them and them you are about to kick WW out of the house and are letting them know in case they want to take her in.

Then act according to whether they'll do an intervention or not.

Sure enough, called very remorseful and apologetic. Had a very good talk, well me doing most of the talking as usual, but we all know that the words don't mean sh*t at this point. I think I'm going to talk with Dr. Harley before I make a decision. Please continue to weigh in, it really helps. Kind of leaning toward filing for divorce, and telling her that she has some time to fix it if she can, but the process is started. But, yeah, seems like the writing is on the wall.

You know how it works, right? Someone who has taken on an addiction like this, usually has to hit rock bottom, reach total humility, before they can admit their faults and ask for help.

Standing up against her is actually helping HER.

Zen,

Can you tell me why you are trying to stay married to this person? Please don't interpret this as an attack.

I am just wondering if without saying, "because I love her" you can articulate a rational reason why continuing to try to keep this up is a good idea for you and your children?

Well, I'm hoping this is some sort of rock bottom. She apparently fell down in the street and got all scraped up last night after she left. Not surpirizing because she was pretty tipsy as I helped her out of the bar. Said she broke the fall with her face. I don't think she thought I'd drive away. This is just too surreal?

I want to save my marriage because... um... uh... Well, right now if you really pressed me, it's because of my kids. It's because one of the most important goals in life was to give my children a different life than I had. I thought my wife and I had the right ingrediants so I want to give it every chance I'm physically capable of. I know. The dysfunction and craziness right now is actually surpassing a lot of my childhood. It's been 3½ weeks since NC unless I'm really getting snowed (which i may be!). I feel I can hang in there a little longer. I feel like I've reached the end of my rope for the 4th time? I know it's pitiful, but it's my marriage.

I will go to the attorny's this week. I will start the process. I will tell my wife that she can either give 100% to her marriage and our family, and stop abusing alcohol, or the she can be on her way.

I want to talk to Dr. Harley to see if he has any insight.

Thanks for your encouragement.

No,

It's NOT pitiful! You are a MAN that is doing the best he can, and you have done so well.

I knew it, before you typed it by the way, that you would say "for the kids." Because I took the other off the table.

Don't rush to the atty's. I just wanted you to think. I mean really think..........

Take time for yourself to think. To consider.

Don't rush.

I want you to think.

You know that "for the kids" is bullcrap. What are YOU wanting here. That is what I am asking.

A wise man named AB3 on this board, asked me similar questions.

You need to know and come to grips with...as you are thinking...if you choose to do so, that:

1. YOU cannot save your wife; only she can do that.

2. Your wife cannot save herself.

You can only do what you can do to enable the above.

We spent all night talking. She stayed the night of the fight with the OM. She said this is the first contact since NC 3½ weeks ago. I pointed out to her that this is a man who takes a distraught, married, drunk, mother of three and has sex with her at the drop of a hat. So yes, False Recovery indeed.

I debated whether or not to tell her that I was going to file for divorce, and I know the good reasons why I shouldn't, but I told her anyway. I told her that nothing is going to change that. I told her what can change is how she fights to save her marriage. She sounds like she's hit bottom. Over and over I told her that I felt like we've been here before and that I fear this love and penitence will fade in a day or two. I said that I am not going to push her anymore, I can help if she asks, but she has to do the work. God I swear I've typed this at least twice before further back.

Her WORDS are the most convincing to date. She sounds like she's finally getting to the right mindset. I know they're just words but admittedly they give me hope. I told her that I've spent the last 2 months educating myself on how to save the marriage. She has not. She asked for suggestions and I suggested she start a thread here. We'll see if she does. I think the combination of 2x4s and support could either scare her away or finally be the source of some real help for her. She was reading and discussing 'Surviving the Affair' for awhile last night. Talked about her boundaries with men and her need for attention. She admitted that this was something she had to change.

It all comes down to this: Can she and will she help herself? I told her if she really wants to save the marriage she should be willing to fight for it even after the divorce goes through.

So there it is. I know I'm setting myself up for a fall once again, but I'm willing to do it this way. I'm ready to see it go either way. I want it to be salvaged. I have little faith that it can be, but I still have hope.

Great job Zen,

Sounds like you are listening to her, offering help (with a healthy dose of skepticism)and coming to grips with the fact:

that she is going to have to do this on her own

but with whatever help you are capable of giving

Said a prayer for you and your WW. You are a man with a tremendous amount of patience.

Whichever way this goes, be sure to print out this thread and save it.

You can be reminded how hard you worked to save your M.

Thanks SWW,

It's nice to hear some validation when wandering in this forest. Wife wants to do the worksheets in the books, this is good. Still totally unconvinced that this effort will last on her part, but hopeful.

I caught up on some of your thread... where are you now? Are you still in Plan B? Same goes for you as far as patience. I'm constantly afraid that my patience is just naiveté. I guess I'll know in the long run.

I'm very curious to hear what Dr. Harley has to say for me. I'm scheduling a session, ASAP.

Help me with this Zen? Your wife STAYED THE NIGHT OF THE FIGHT WITH THE OM? As in this week? WTF?

I'm feeling for your my friend. We both know she has issues, and alcohol being a major one...

But help me understand this...she was with the OM the other night? As in just a few nights ago?

Tell me I'm reading this wrong...

Oops,

wow DNU I missed that...

Spent the other night with the OM? I thought she was gonna get a cab home?

Zen, say it ain't so?

Nope, after I left her on the sidewalk, she called him up, he came and picked her up and she stayed at his house and they did the DEED.

Recovery erased.

I guess the fact that she was totally open about this gives me some hope, but it also gives me resolve to initiate the divorce. We won't be touching each other until new STD tests. Sigh.

I'm starting to feel kind of numb, but I will admit that her attitude seems to be in a better place than it's been. I think the big scrapes on her face are a good reminder of just how far she has gone. Says she doesn't like this person she's become. She just wants to be a wife and a mother. The proof is how she acts next week and next month and next year if we make it that far. I think I'll know when I've finally had enough.

I'm curious if withdrawal is going to restart again this time. She's not displaying the 'doubts' she has always expressed that this can be fixed. She just keeps asking me to let her try.

I'll let her try. That's what I want in the end, but I won't accept anything below the bar this time. She sounds like she's getting it. Hope I'm not making a mistake. I'll keep you posted.

Oh Lord...

heh heh *nervous, resigned laughter* yeah.

Why doesn't it affect me as much as I thought it would? Am I getting used to the abuse or am I running low on love for her?

I filled out the Emotional Needs questionnaire today. I had to differentiate the responses for pre-D-Day and post. They're alarmingly different.

Really curious to see hers. Nothing seems to scare me anymore. We even talked about some details of the affair and triggers and her boundaries last night.

Zen,

Could you please write down for us the list of boundaries you wrote out and handed her as a pre-condition for her moving back into the house after spending the night and banging the OM, after getting drunk and picking the fight so that you would get angry and leave her there so she could go to the OM's house.

Give me the list please.

Scre* the EN questionnaire for now please...

Uh oh, here come the 2x4s...

I'm going to ask her to write down the boundaries, then I'll add any that she can't come up with.

Mine are:

No contact letter.

Use MB. Schedule sessions with Dr. Harley. Follow his plan.

Find your own tools for recovery/personal issues.

No more drinking for the foreseeable future.

No more bars for the foreseeable future.

Not more late night outings without me for the foreseeable future.

No aggressive, defensive, arrogant attitude.

No lies.

Complete transparency.

I'm filing for divorce, this is not changing. I don't think that fight was an excuse to end up with the OM. I don't think she'd come crawling back the next day if that was the case. I think this is her still so deep in her selfish fantasy and DRUNK, that she does things without thinking of the consequences. I told her that she exhibits a lot of traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (I think most waywards do, but it was a good conversations piece).

yeah stand by for the 2x4 i just have to re-read what you just wrote

I told her that she exhibits a lot of traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (I think most waywards do, but it was a good conversations piece).

Oh sorry I missed this one, triple HAH. She is hearing blah, blah, blah blah...

To her you sound like Charlie Brown's teacher when you talk about NPD.

She says, "yeah, honey you know you might be right, I really need to look into that."

As she snuggles her hungover head into the pillows grateful you let her back in even after what she did, thanking her lucky stars she can essentially do whatever she wants and you'll just take it, hoping you'll shut your pie hole so she can sleep cause she's hungover and tired from staying up all night banging another man.

zen,

You're not wasting our time, even if you do file for D.

There's a lot for you to still tap into and D's can be reversed. Filing first for a D puts you in the driver seat for the proceedings.

And you might still have to deal with a custody fight, where there is VAST experience on the board for that.

Keep documenting and keep expecting crazy behavior from her.

Zen, sorry if I was stiff with you, but as I said, I am still married but extricating myself from the EXACT type woman you are married to.

I don't want you to go thru the 18 months plus that I have gone thru.

It is only after I told her to scre* off and started fighting for myself and my kids that she even started to wake up.

I had to take away her cake and candy in a very, very serious way with complete disregard to what her potential reaction would be before she started to wake up.

Only when she takes you seriously, that there will actually be consequences for continuing to act out like she is will she be in a position to possibly change herself.

I had to move on emotionally before she started to believe it, but by the time she did, I fear, it was just too late for me.

I think Baron has a good overall strategy here though, filing for D may be best for both of you in the long run.

Yep...


wow. I was hoping I had read that wrong. Nope. Man, I feel for you. All this work and the minute you leave her drunk-[censored] she calls the OM and it's on. Didn't she say she *forgot* his phone number? Or was that another WW?

Anyway, you are in a terrible situation my friend. But rest assured...you have worked on YOU and are a better person for going through all of this. You worked on yourself, worked to be the best Dad you could be and even became a better husband.

It's clear your crazy wayward wife (CWW -- hey, I coined a new acro here ) isn't in a place where she can even work on the marriage right now.

And yes, after their hookup, you are back to square #1 with regard to withdrawal and recovery.

I'm guessing you probably still have a little left in your love bank for your wife. If it were me and my wife had been treating me this way, wavering, drinking, AO's, DJs, floundering, etc...then drunken dialing the OM and hooking up -- well, if it were me I'd pack all her junk up and leave it in the driveway. And change the locks and head right to Plan B / D. File for divorce my friend. Get the upper-hand with the courts.

And don't talk to her. Go stright to Plan B. Go dark! And see an attorney TODAY! Okay, might want to talk to lawyer before going dark and changing locks. Each state has different rules / regs when considering mother's rights to children.

Man, it seriously bums me out to hear the latest turn of events in your marriage. I just want to grab your CWW and shake her.

Be strong. Be strong for your kiddos. Be strong for you. You may never be able to recover your marriage, but you HAVE created a better Zen!

Keep posting, keep documenting and keep snooping your tail off. All that snooping could turn in to great evidence in divorce court. Write all this crap down.

My heart goes out to you Zen!

"I just want to grab your CWW and shake her."

Never, ever, ever shake a baby...


DNU,

CWW? Love it and poor Zen's CWW takes the cake.

Sorry Zen, time to go to work. You are too good for this.

SIGH. Gentlemen, I appreciate your continued support and advice and I hope if I don't always follow your advice, you won't feel offended. I hope you will continue to weigh in because I need this more than ever.

This is my wife. This is the woman I pledged myself to. This is the mother of my children. I still love her very much. I am not ready to give up completely. I am arranging a consultation with an attorney this week, and will initiate that process. BUT, if there has been a time when she is saying and doing the right things, this is it. If she can keep her current attitude and actions up, this might be saved. If she can't, then I'll allow the divorce to go through.

I'm asking her to start a thread here. I'm asking her not to read mine (although if she does, I don't think I care too much). She read a couple drafts of recent posts, including the one from our latest meltdown, and I think this is part of what scared the hell out of her. Can she keep up the effort? Can she keep up the attitude? We'll see? She sounds like she's willing to do anything. I hope she is.

So 2x4 if you must, and I'll follow the advice that I find helpful, most of it has been, but I am going to keep trying with my marriage until I just don't have anything left.

Well we've entered into a strange new chapter. My wife has started her own thread. Please try to be constructive, not just abusive if you decide to post to her thread. Her name is cohosalmon.

This could be really good or really weird or really bad. Maybe a little of each.

Thanks for your continued support.

I presume she is Cohosalmon. I will be nice.

I think most of us will. We'll be NICE and FIRM and apply pressure when required. Sometimes it takes a heavy hand to break through.

We've got both your backs Zen.

Thanks everyone. Honest to god just kinda of feeling floaty. Every emotion in the book. Whoa, I need coffee.

Zen: While I will not break out the 2x4 on her just yet...she may see a little 1x2 from me

Faith and strength to you Zen!

Zen,

If you can it might be a good idea not to read your WW's thread for awhile. You may feel the temptation to dispute her "facts" and/or argue with her, which may dissuade her from staying.

Try to resist if at all possible.

I agree. Let us 2x4 her a little and hammer home some basic concepts. She needs a little dose of MB.com.

I'm surprised she is here...but in a way I'm also glad! I see a faint light in the distance where there was once none. This morning I would say it's third an long...and it's time to punt. Now, with her here I'm thinking it might be time for a nice little screen or a deep out. Take what the defense will give you for one more play.

Your WW was married to her previous husband when she started dating you?

Perhaps I got that wrong - she's pretty foggy.

Yes, I was the OM. Of course at the time I didn't see it that way, but through this I most certainly have - a combination of ignorance and rationalizing and matters of degrees that I would never want to apply to my own marriage. Adds a messy and significant dimension to the whole story. It was a very different situation, but I am guilty just the same. I have recently apologized to the ex-husband. There was some discussion further back on my thread about it if you want to read more of the details.

thanks for your reply

Best of luck

Well, that whole mess the other day disappeared from the site, so let's see... Where are we? It's strange because my wife can read my posts now, so I guess there is going to be some transparency that may not always be comfortable. Sorry, Sweetpea, but I'm going to try to be as honest and open as I can because I want to get the best help through this forum.

I feel like she's a different person. It feels like a switch went off. I keep asking her why this is different this time, and she seems to have trouble explaining it, says that "a switch went off". I'm having so much difficulty trusting it even though I want to so dearly. She's being incredibly sweet and caring and loving and seems to answer most of my questions with humble answers. She's very proactive, which is typical of her... Fix it quick - But acknowledges that there is so much to fix and it will take a long time. She seems completely dedicated and hopeful.

Me? I'm feeling kind of lost... Still trying to wrap my head around this change, trying to figure out just what happened, trying to figure out my actions and my attitude. I want to be reserved and distant because I don't want to buy in yet, even though it's what I've fought so incredibly hard for. Still want to see a lawyer but I'm worried that it will be damaging to recovery if in fact it's real. Really REALLY worried that her selfish behavior will return, that she'll lose her resolve when she realizes how hard this is... I'm trying to get the energy and resolve to keep up my end of things because it's work for both of us, I know.

So, I have no idea what to think. It's almost like it didn't happen. She's not defensive, doesn't mind talking about it, is helping with the kids again, telling me she loves me several times a day, very comforting, sympathetic... If this is real, this is what I need. I just wish I knew it was real. Time will tell.

Zen,

There's no rush to go and divorce. I say that you should keep your reaction to a hair trigger if there is more waywardness on her part but you have nothing to lose by engaging her and trying.

THAT you won't regret.

Read up on what Dr. H says regarding marriage counseling. It's very interesting. It's in the article section.

It's also normal to not trust her right away. She betrayed that trust and has to earn it back. Let her put in the work and show you through her actions that she's worth trusting again. In the meantime keep your guard up and Plan A.

Fake it till you make it. Emotions will follow actions.

It's just been so back and forth, I've been at my absolute breaking point at least 5 or 6 times, I really really question her motives.

I want to make sure I remember what I've learned through this, regardless. I want to remember the things that I need to change to be a better me.

But yes, I want to know that she will keep up this effort for the next weeks, months and years if needs be.

She asked me why I have hung in there so long... Said she wouldn't have in my shoes. I asked if this makes her respect me less. It's sad because as this has progressed, my answer has become so much less sure and so much more tainted by her actions. I remember all the reasons, I still stick by them, but the love for her is hardest to find right now. I want to make it all OK. This has just been so humiliating and dehumanizing it's going to take awhile to get on my feet again. Everything still hits in waves. I can't get through a day without crying. I drove behind the OM yesterday. I had visions of following him and introducing myself. Really bothers me that he lives fairly close to us.

I want so badly to keep up the strength I've maintained for the last two months but I'm having trouble finding it. I want to let her pull the reigns for awhile, but I don't kow if it's fair. I'm just so worn down.

Coho mentioned that her first husband cheated on her. Do you know the circumstances?

I really don't know too many details but I think he cheated on her at least twice. I don’t want to compare our marriages because they are very different. I think my wife's first marriage was pretty rocky for much of it. Two people who brought out the worst in each other. He was an ex drug dealer, had a VERY broken and messed up childhood even in comparison to my wife's and my messed up childhoods. I think when they were married he had stopped being involved with drugs etc. Since I've known him, he's been clean and for the most part of OK dad. He has done some horrible, manipulative things to my wife, and continually makes immature decisions with regard to parenting (seems to put his hobbies before his kids), but not abusive and hurtful to the kids in any way. I have no love for him, but he's a decent guy all around.

I think my wife and he came from some very rough times when they met, and it was not a marriage built on a good foundation. I want to be careful not to conjecture too much because it's always hard to judge a marriage from the outside.

When my wife and I started dating, they were mutually separated, planning to divorce. When he saw her dating, I think he wanted to try to save the marriage but she was done. This was an affair in the strictest sense, but I didn't think of it at the time. Like I said, I wouldn't want to subject my own marriage to this standard.

Our relationship was pretty rough at first. I don't have very fond memories of it. She was the first woman I had SF with, the first woman I became that involved with. It was very rocky and I was very indecisive for about 6 or 8 months. As she got her feet under her again, and I consciously became more committed to the relationship, it grew to be a wonderful thing. Within about a year I knew I wanted to spend my life with her.

I know the success rate for marriages that grow out of affairs and broken homes are terrible. I just won’t let that be the reason to end something that means so much to me and my children and has so much good. This is going to open up a whole new can of worms, but I recently found out that my father and stepmother had an affair. My father left my mother for her. They're the example I have always used as the one strong and thriving mature marriage that I know of.

I really don’t want to concentrate too much on history here. I don’t think that's going to help us figure out how to move forward... granted, it's good to know the patterns and behaviors that need to be changed, it's good to recognize the lessons that need to be learned. I think one of the key principles of MB is to actively change behavior that is causing problems in your life. That's what we need to do here.

We had a really nice date night last night. Watchmen was totally boring.

This whole thing has truly taken on a new dimension. The fact that my wife can read my posts and she mine is really changing the dynamic. It's almost like marriage counseling on a forum with no moderator. I read her last couple posts and it was totally devastating. I felt like she failed to acknowledge all the hard work and most of the good qualities I feel that I've brought to the marriage. Then in the end, it just feels like she's blaming me for the affair, which I thought she had stopped doing weeks ago. I had a big breakdown and my wife came and comforted me. I told her that I look like a total jerk in her posts, and I feel like we have such different views of our marriage. She said she didn't intend to make me feel that way but wants to be able to say what she feels. I agree with this, but from those posts, that question of 'why are you here? Why do you want to save our marriage?' remains unanswered or answered in a really unsatisfactory way for me. She's afraid of saying the wrong things on the forums... It's tough because I want her to have all the right answers right away, but it's so unrealistic. First of all, everything is still totally tainted by the affair. I've been pouring over this MB stuff for a couple months now, she's really just digging in. I knew from D-Day that I was in way over my head and I needed to seek help, so there really is an educational element to recovering and just marriage as a whole. I hope she's feeling that way too, but she's very proud, so it's hard to say if she'll accept the help.

Now, onto the good things. Onto the things that give me hope. As I'm crying so bitterly, she immediately comes to comfort me and listen to what I say. During the affair, my tears were met with anger. Over and over she's comforting me and picking me up when I'm feeling awful. It just feels so good to have her care. She's continually making decisions that put our marriage first, that put my healing first. This is HUGE for me. It is exactly what I need. She's remaining cheerful and optimistic in the face of a very big mountain to climb. I'm so proud of her resolve and thankful for her effort. Little by little I'm trusting her motives more. We had a really nice date night last night. No drama!!! A few beers but no alcohol-fueled meltdowns. So really, recovery attempt #6 or whatever this is finally getting off on the right foot I think. I see the woman I love again.

I am just a bit concerned you are reading each others posts.

When Flick first came on he was still a bit foggy and said some things that were hurtful. Now he is less foggy he is better at explaining what he means.

If you are reading Coho's posts and she says something that makes you upset, yes it is good she can comfort you, but stops her having a safe place to say all that she wants where the other readers can call her out if her train of thought is heading into fogland.

I only finally read Flicks thread about 2 months ago and he does not read mine at all, although that is his choice, not mine.

Yeah, I have a worry that what we say will be tainted by the fact that the other is going to read it. I'll talk it over with her. It has been good for me, because I see she's trying, but some of it is very hurtful to read. Thanks for the input!

Yeah, what I've understood is that you want your wife to come here, but you really want to stay off of each other's threads, so that the rest of us can do the work we need to get you both on the same page. And you need to trust us to work in both of your interests.

Zen: Sorry haven't been here much for you this past week. The board shut down and things around my house have me busy...

I've tried to catch up on coho's thread. Interesting to see her perspective. I think JL is hitting the mark with her. Hopefully JL's comments will sink in...

Hang in there!

Zen, first let me apologize for flaming your wife. I was wrong, maybe I sympathize to much. As I said, it is difficult to see someone going through something for months and not get connected. At least for me. I Read Cohos last posts too, and they are troubling. It is like she is a spectator looking in on a marriage, not really being part of it. When she writes about her experiences, she is really cavalier. Its like a laundry list. Very dispassionate. Now this may not be how she acts in real life but it is troubling to read. There doesn't seem to be a wrestling of emotion, contrition or passion. It's like, "Oh well, I'm supposed to be here in this marriage." It was interesting to here that she cried at "Marley and Me". The sad thing is, it sounds like she had more depth of emotion and sorrow over that, then the state of her marriage. If we're talking movies, Its like Jerry Mcguire when Rene Zewillger (or what ever her name is), "I got this great guy who loves my son. Oh yeah, and he likes me a lot" But she is the Jerry Mcguire.

I have read all her posts. Where is the love? Its almost like she hasn't got anything better to do at the moment, "so I might as well work on my broken marriage". The posters on her thread, seem to be trying to dig some depth of emotion out of her, and I sense they haven't seen it either. It comes down to this, and I don't know if this is true, you will have to be the judge. SHE DOESN'T ACHE FOR YOU. I would be encouraged if she was even depressed. At least that would show some effect or that she actually sensed a loss of some kind.

Has she ever broken down in sorrow over the pain she has caused? Have you ever walked in on her crying, or in pain? Is she clinging to you at all? Does she follow you around? Does she come up to you and ask you to hold her, just hold her? Does she look at your face and worry what you're thinking about? Is hanging out with you the most important thing to her?

You don't marry some one you can live with. You marry someone you can't live without!

Just some thoughts. No flames.