My xWW still maintains a friendship in my (our old) neighborhood. This neighbor is one of her "true friends" in her words--meaning that she was able to coapt this woman to her side during our separation and divorce...with the usual fog-laden blend of deceit, half-truths, and scapegoating of me/our marriage to justify her affair, none of which she has ever come even remotely close to acknowledging much less taking responsibility for to me.

xWW was here visiting as I was exiting my car after coming home from work. She slowed her drive by my (our old) house to watch me walking around in the garage--I didn't even look her way but knew it was her by the car that was being driven and had caught an earlier glimpse...

She filed for and completed the (unwanted on my part) divorce about 1 1/2 years ago. It still hurts! Especially knowing that she remains too stubborn to truly face what she did to me. She refused to talk back then and nothing seems to ever change in her ongoing insensitivity to the trail of wreckage she left behind in her wake with family, friends, OM's family (also married), and ME. I still hurt just by seeing her...

I know exactly how you feel. It boggles my mind that someone could do this and not feel badly about it.
I've sort of come to peace with the fact that I will never get an apology or any type of expression of remorse.

I think what makes this so difficult is that it seems so foreign to me. I think we tend to think that our ex-spouse are like us, have consciences. Apparently, some folks can do this crap and walk away without a care.

I try to be thankful that i am not like that and that i am away from someone so toxic.

You just need o try to let go of any expectation that you will get an apology. Folks like this leave a trail of devestation. They are very messed up.

Zelmo,

Thanks for your reply.

What particularly boggles my mind is how drastically she has changed over the last few years. Someone who for many years was devoted, kind, supportive, caring, and upright became cold, hard-hearted, obstinate, unforgiving, and depraved in her lack of empathy towards many people who loved her so dearly and to others (on OM's side) that she DIDN't EVEN KNOW beforehand.

Her father and brother treated others (and HER) like that before and she quite correctly despised their conduct. She has OUTDONE even them and doesn't seem to recognize it. Many folks wonder why she is now so loyal and forgiving towards a POSOM who has betrayed 3 ex-wives and financially/emotionally abandoned 2 of his children...he is a father "in name only" to the 3rd.

It so confusing and hard to accept--she was so wonderful...

There is such a vast difference between the W I knew and the WW I later "met"... The irony is, the family, friends, and husband she discarded loved her more than her own family and were her biggest fans.....they all were willing to forgive her had she displayed the courage to do what was right

I can assure you they know what they've done. They are using SOMETHING(alchohol, religion, pharmaceuticals) to block it out. My exWW was a LITTLE remorseful, but I went for the jugular. I had a retaliation A and then told EVERYONE what she had done. Of course, a lot of people thought a lot of her so she fell from grace like a rock. I then filed for D. I suspect you just need to know that not all WW get away w/out taking in the shorts. I fired every bullet I had and broke her!

I feel your pain. I recently was reminded of my wife's affair. That was 14 yrs. ago. I also realized that time heals nothing but with the passing of time it will hurt less and less. Good luck.

Mine got off scott free and got everything.

She won.

Thanks to everyone for your responses.

I have no desire for "retaliation". I never wanted her and I to be adversaries...I told her that many times. I wanted reconciliation and renewal--the "nicer" I was, the more defensive, stubborn, and belligerent she became. I reached my hand out to her in mutual conciliation, forgiveness, tenderness, and honesty dozens and dozens of times--in each case, she slapped it away with spite, scorn, deceit, and vengefulness. She would have choked her own mother (or anyone else) who might have stood in the way of her affair (which I didn't find out about till much later...kinda all makes sense now). She actually did screech at her father and my mother hanging up the phone when either of them dared suggest that maybe should direct some emotional energy and attention toward HER MARRIAGE.

I guess my problem is that I still love and always will love the "her" I REMEMBER (before the whole affair and marital crisis turned her into someone I could barely recognize). I have read much on this topic, here and elsewhere, and understand the bizarre wayward mindset on an academic and intellectual level. But, I confess that I still struggle with its personal application in my/her sense. It truly feels like an alien virus took over the physical body of the girl I adored so deeply and changed her in ways that are almost impossible to fully comprehend. I get it when people talk about their adulterous wife/husband being "abducted by aliens"...

Her father has this dual nature without an affair being involved. He could be a generous, loving, Christian man when he wanted to be; he could also be manipulative, unforgiving of offense, and the ultimate grudge-holder as well--he ended up throwing away his relationship with his daughter (my XWW's older half-sister) and his grandson by hanging on to some silly grudge for 10+ years out of misplaced pride and unforgiveness. It is/was all so silly! My W and I used to discuss how idiotic it was to be unforgiving and hard-headed to people who were truly open to reconciliation--WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS CRAP? She hated him for doing it and know she has done it herself...

She confessed regret to me "for being so hardheaded...I should have listened to you" last summer on the phone. Despite that, she has done nothing...

"Feeling bad about it" is not enough. I'm sure she secretly feels "bad" but that seems awfully phony and self-serving when you don't express it and REPENT of it. Sort of like apologizing for robbing someone but refusing to return the money you stole...

Good analogy. Just comfort yourself with the crazy idea i had that shes really stalking you when she drops by to see her neighbor.

The best revenge is living well.

Just fake it if you have to.

Your wife's transformation is very confusing. Unlike your Ww, minw as pretty much an a-hole form early on. This is very common with the personality disordered after one is ensnared by marriage, kids etc.
SD, if your wife is like this now, have you considered tha possibility that her pre-A persona was a facade? I cannot imagine someone that was genuinely as nice as you seem to think she was transforming like this.

It helped me make sense of my XWW's transformation early in the marriage to research her history before I knew her. Turns out she had been truly messed up with stints as an OW multiple times and had engaged in a lot of really bad behavior. It was amazing and enlightening.

Zelmo,

Well-intentioned friends have asked me this ("did you REALLY know her before?", etc.) I can honestly say that I DID know her before. We were married for ~11 yrs and were together exclusively for 2 more before that. She is truly a wonderful person (when she wants to be) and I adored her for it.

I am not going to deny that I made mistakes in the M--I did. I grew complacent and took for granted what we had in each other. Silly LBs, unknowingly not meeting the most important ENs, you all sadly know the drill... Believe me, I did EVERYTHING a man could do to make amends and demonstrate that I understood. I apologized profusely for my errors (which, of course, were never intended to hurt her) in so many ways and in front of so many people (friends, counselor, families on both sides). SHE KNOWS ALL THIS AND KNEW IT BACK THEN, but could not bring herself to "give herself back" to us. Last summer she admitted to me on the phone: "You never need to apologize again--you apologized too much and I was hardheaded and should have listened..."

Problem is, I never received anything approaching reciprocation from her. I was quite willing to meet forgiveness with forgiveness, and reconciliation with reconciliation...she simply wouldn't do it. I did not understand at the time why she seemd so determined to throw away everything we had and built together. I am an intensely loyal person and never even thought about another woman literally from our 1st date--sounds corny, I know...

I have learned some things about her and have come to some revelations. She was molested as a child by a male relative and her parents didn't take her seriously. She never got "closure" or an apology/admission from the perpetrator. Playing armchair psychologist here, I suspect the entire episode left her suspicious of expressing her hurts and discontents later on. She never really told me what was bothering her about us even when I asked and begged to hear. By her own admission since, she does put on a facade of contentment rather than express her innermost feelings in a healthy way--I was fooled into believing "everything is fine, she is just stressed out at work and needs some time..." She has also admitted that unforgiveness and stubborness are chracter flaws she struggles with--again, largely out-of-view. Unfortunately, some poor examples of this plague her family and she has (unknowingly, I suspect) fallen into that same pattern.

I also know from my research that AFFAIRS CHANGE PEOPLE. Waywards become cold, distant, and belligerent towards their spouses as a defense mechanism. They devote all their emotional energy toward their new love interest and little toward their marriage, usually convincing themselves that "the marriage was over" and "they can'r get their feelings back" for their spouse. I did not know (and naively believed she would never do that) about her affair during this "crisis" time in our marriage. I recognize now, that she dropped some hints about "needing my forgiveness too" and "not always being the best wife to you" but would go no further. When I asked to talk more deeply, she simply wouldn't.

Maybe she felt too guilty and ashamed to tell me, maybe she thought I would never forgive her anyway, maybe she thought "she had to follow her heart"...maybe a combination of all of these. I know she was fence-sitting during this time and told me pointedly "It is all about me right now!" She even said "You be a mind-reader now, you figure it out!" when I begged her to tell me more. She also said "I'm struggling right now!" but wouldn't elaborate--it was all like I had no right or interest in knowing anything. Later, I found out she was taking her OM to church with her and crying the entire time as she tried to reconcile what she was doing with her Christian upbringing. ICK! I didn't find out about her "just a friend" OM until she filed and didn't find out about how far back it went until well after the divorce, which of course was entirely her choice and doing.

I wish she would have told me...at least so I could have had some closure earlier. I just think she didn't want to risk losing the OM and being exposed. The most insane thing she said to me last summer was "I was so terrified you were going to leave me!" That one killed me!!! That would have NEVER happenned... Crazy, huh?

Hi SDCW,

I'm not quite sure what to pray for.

I pray for resolution in your own heart. Maybe that she does get it in her life. Do your want her marriage to break up too?

If she was a Christian person maybe that marriage - is illegal.

Come close to God, give him your concerns. Growth is required from this lesson. And no, I do not know what we have to learn!

Sexual abuse victims are very damaged , SD. It is not something they asked for.

Neverthless, it sounds like you did all you could. She just never gave you a chance as she is such a poor communicator.

No one is perfect in a marriage. I'm sure she had some major deficiencies in meeting all your needs as well. Yet, you adhered to your vows.

She may be a wondeful person, but she sounds very broken, as well. And, it was her responsibility to get help. Instead, she cheated and that is just not right, ever.

Unless she makes a real commitment to getting help, you are much better off out of that dysfunctional relationship. You just cannot get close to someone tha has those types of walls up.

Huh? In what way? From what I see, SHE is the one living in h&ll, you are the one who took the high road and can look yourself in the mirror every day. IMO, that trumps everything.

Besides, one of these days, you're going to sell your story to Hollywood and get rich.

This is so true. It bothers me sometimes how people (not you, more like society) minimize what childhood SA does to a person. I know people who had nothing worse than a relative touching them - once - and doing nothing more than that, no intercourse or anything, and yet the victim will spend the rest of their life destroying themself and everything around them because they can't get the erroneous guilt out of their heads.

It's insidious, what it does.

This, my friend, is an unfortunate thing which has scarred her for life and will forever cloud her way of viewing life until she gets help for it.

She developed coping and survival techniques for dealing with the molestation and her cloudy thinking falls in line with what I've learned about female victims of childhood sexual abuse.

It's a horrible thing for a child to experience and it scars a child for life. Do the research. Women who go through this as children (and the number of women who do is very scary) have trouble with normal relationships later in life (a generalization, but the statistics back up the statement).

Do research on the subject and you'll see for yourself.

This unfortunate fact explains a great deal about your xw's behavior.

I know it's hard to let go of something you thought was wonderful, but keep in mind that was YOUR perception of things and obviously not hers.

What is normal to you is not normal to a person with psychological problems.

My therapist told me that there are women who are attracted to "bad boys" who are often bad husbands and abusive. The abuse adds an element of excitement to the relationship and the sex life, from what she told me, is often incredible.

So a normal guy, in comparison, will not appeal to a woman who wants bad boys. Normal guys appear boring. She has had to actually teach some of these women to learn to value different qualities so they can like normal men.

Your XW needs an IC and years of therapy before she can have a normal relationship.

Expect the one with the OM to eventually break down.

For you? Move on. The day will come when she can drive down the street a million times and it will be like Jane Doe driving down the street. Seeing her will feel the same as getting junk mail. You won't think anything of it as you throw it away.

There's good women out there, my friend. Once you see how good they are you'll quickly forget the WW.

So go out and date. Date many women. Don't sleep with them. Just date and see for yourself and have fun and keep things light.

CSA effects people in many ways. I know, my FIL molested his daughter, my wife.

If she does not seek help, she will likely never heal.

It may not be a bad idea for you to see an IC and get a better grasp on the whole thing.

Thank you all for your insights...you are really helping me! These boards sometimes act like an online "personal journal" for me and I do appreciate the perspectives you have all added.

For so long, I beat myself to death over the mistakes (real and exaggerated) I made. You know--"if only I had showed her more attention" or had "done this" or "not done that"...etc, etc. I know that I have to accept that likely I will never "get an answer from her" to so many questions that have flown through my head over the last couple of years.

My xWW did get some IC a number of years back regarding the past and "made one last effort" to reach out to her older brother (the SA perp from 25 yrs. ago). Her efforts were dismissed and she never received even an admission much less true remorse in return. I didn't find out the full details of it until much later during our "crisis". I am not one who generally subscribes to the cop-out of someone "having a bad childhood" or "being the victim of poor parenting" as an excuse or explanantion for every unwise thing they do as an adult, but in this case I can definitely see patterns.

xWW had a period of rebellion (overbearing and controlling father for sure) during her first half of college. Every kid revels in their new-found freedom a bit when they first move away and over-indulges somewhat. She had a lot of parties and a hefty number of boyfriends/lovers before pulling herself out of that and cleaning up her act. We met about a year later and I think I was by far the best guy to come in to her life. I loved her for HER--well before we became physically intimate and made that clear. Our MC later told me privately that she had revealed to him "she has always been flattered that someone like you was interested in her and never felt worthy of you...she found herself intimidated of you..." I NEVER knew that either.

I can see now how she "splits" people into "good" and "bad" camps in certain situations and shows the "Dr. Jekyll" side to one and the "Mr. Hyde" side to another. My neighbors are now in the "good camp" and to them she displays the "good-girl, victim, never-did-anything-wrong-to-anyone" personna. OM's xW, son, and of course ME are now in the "bad camp" and we have seen quite the opposite--believe me, the examples of her deceit, insensitivity, emotional cruelty, and stubborn depravity have been on full display.

Thank you all for helping me see how and why the unthinkable to me became possible...

xWW is also definitely a "romantic" person (from Private Lies by Dr. Frank Pittman) -- someone who places powerful reliance and validity on "feelings" above all else. Such people are easily swept away during periods of turmoil in their personal lives are are VERY vulnerable to "falling in love" with people who are very bad for them and know how to recognize and manipulate someone "needy" by saying & doing "all the right things".

I think she was desperate to feel good about herself and to feel "valueable and worthy" and was easy pickin's for her OM -- he is basically a smooth talker, habitual betrayer, and relationship social-climber. I know the main reason he married her was for her money as their "engagement" came about during the affair shortly after OM was rejected in his secret efforts to go back to his BW#3 who found out and was D'ing him.

If xWW had no money, he would have used her and dumped her when he was done. They have NOTHING to build a real relationship on--She is nothing but a Bank Account w/ Boobs to him--she doesn't know it yet and probably won't fully "get it" for years...

I know you feel she was wondeful, SD. But,I urge you to check out Borderline Personality disorder and see if she fits. Thye are often victims of sexual abuse. And, the black and white thinking is very much a BPD trait. You also mention her promiscuity pre -marriage(and, apparently while married, as well).

You've pointed out three big red flags. There are 9 criteria and a person meeting 5 is diagnosable. Take a look into this. Infidelity is rampant amog the disordered.

Who cares what she thinks or what is wrong with her???
She is your EX! Go and concentrate on yourself. This is soo unhealthy

Myfamily,

Thank you and, yes, I know you are correct.

I was venting on this thread and am not going to waste any emotional energy trying to "figure her out" as that is indeed unhealthy and futile. I know she is my "ex" and, believe me, I have been concentrating on myself and "living my own life" for quite some time now.

Problem is, I feel that process is interrupted ("sets me back somewhat") whenever she "re-appears" in some fashion. I do NOT SEEK it, trust me! That includes obviously visiting my neighborhood, coming to my workplace/interacting with collegues of mine, and "keeping track of me/my family/my activities". All of these things she has done--the last one she admitted to by finding out somehow about my brother's wedding...perhaps via the internet and then asking me about "how it went" and telling me about how she "thinks of XXXX (formerly close family members to her) all the time". Dr. Pittman writes that most WSs cannot help but "return to the scene of the crime" repeatedly--I'm sure that is what goes on here.

She always has ostensible "legitimate reasons" why this is so (visiting a friend, non-emergent medical care, nostalgia) but also has other choices as well that would avoid all such contact. Yes, I have thought about moving and will do so at some point. I do love my house/yard and don't want to deal with open houses, a loooong 'for sale' process, or dumping it "on the cheap" right now given the obvious market conditions afflicting real estate at present.

I appreciate your advice, sorry for the online venting/journaling...

SDCWman - you seem to spend a lot of time thinking about your WxW.

She first started seeing OM - three years ago, was it? - and is now trying to get pregnant.

I wonder if you still hope to reconcile with your xW.
If her last email ('just a thought away')is still giving you hope. If such hopes are poisoning your interest in or appeal to other women.

It would be sad to pine for your xW for years, yet to never reconcile, and to deprive yourself of the possibility of a happy marriage with someone else.

If you haven't yet given up on your xW - at what point would you? If she got pregnant? After 3 years? 5? 10?

SDCWMan,

Go ahead and vent. It's quite therapeutic to write about it. In my d-care class, they advised that we tell our story until we're sick of hearing ourselves. It's all part of the healing process, and some of us just take longer than others.

I haven't talked to my WH in almost two years, however when I saw him about 2 months ago I had somewhat of a relapse. I understand, and yes, it still hurts. Some hurts will always be there, but they lessen with time and we learn to live with them and realize that they are part of shaping the persons that we will eventually become. OK, so I'm not sure I really believe this now, but I will someday.

All of us (BSs) have gone through this. We don't understand it at all. Like Zelmo, I know I will never get any type of apology or amends and I've just accepted that. I also know that I didn't do my part in the M, and my WH was not happy, didn't love me anymore and felt that he found a better person. He describes me as non-affectionate and materialistic, where Op is a "touchy-feely" kind of person who lives on very little. The A's happened because they felt that we couldn't meet some important need that OP met. Will they regret it? Maybe, maybe not. Just have faith that down the line we will recover. Try to stay dark and work on YOU.

Thank you all for your recent replies. I had forgotten all about this thread and happenned to stumble upon it when I saw the new posts.

I re-read the thread and remember how bad a day I was having when I first started it. Well, some good things have been going on since!

First, xWW has been notably absent ever since at the hypocritical, sell-out neighbors' house which is SO NICE! The less evidence and reminders I ever see of her betraying, duplicitous A$$, the better. I have thought of her and the pain she inflicted on so many people VERY LITTLE since...which is GREAT!

Second, I am seeing someone really wonderful over the last 2 months or so! No rush, but it sure does feel good to have such a great gal appreciate you--she has impressed me in a lot of ways so far. Loyalty is BIG to me :-)

Chai, I thank you for the permission to "vent" and it is indeed healthy. I post on MB not for advice on my own WW (which I realize now I am WAY better off WITHOUT) but to "get it out" and hopefully help others earlier in the process with what I have learned and read. I sometimes takes long "breaks" between posting and dive back in when an interesting thread catches my attention or when the inevitable "triggers" come along. Speaking of triggers, there have been a few in last 2 weeks...

1. The whole Elizabeth Edwards saga all over the news has to remind every BS of the needless pain that adultery causes and how it wrecks lives so callously. I'd like to ask fmr. Sen. John Edwards this: "Was it worth it, dumba$$?" LOL

2. There has been a spate of new divorces-in-progress among my colleagues at work. 3 of the 4 involve the WW/BH scenario I am so personally familiar with. One in particular involves a guy I consider a friend and I have been talking with him to help him through it. I hear the pain in his voice and I know EXACTLY what he is thinking and feeling without the need for words. I WAS precisely where he IS now. He approached me for help and support because he knew I was there 2 years ago...I want to help him, but I confess hearing all about it does bring back bad memories of betrayal, deceit, and wanton manipulation for me. I feel drained after talking with him but I know it is the right thing to do.

3. My folks were in town visiting me recently and I had a great time with them. The "unpleasantness" with my xWW is never discussed anymore (my parents loved xWW very deeply and were severely hurt and devastated by her betrayals and lies). One evening while my dad was in the shower, my mom (who had been cooking all day for us all at my house) suddenly became a little somber and "wanted to show me something". She had come across an old cookbook I had in the cabinet and had long forgotten about. It had been a gift from her to my then-fiance (now-xWW) from many years prior. She showed me how she had taped a new recipe over in the inside front cover and told me why...to obscure a hand-written message from her to my then-fiance. I said "no problem, Mom, didn't even know that was there". My mom put it back in the cabinet and I could hear her voice crack and see her tear up...it broke my heart. My then-WW treated my mom like total crap in 10/06 while she was secretly cake-eating between me and her affair...and had NEVER apologized. My mom still misses her and wishes that apology would come--it may never happen.

I guess those "triggers" led to me to posting some more...but I'm doing quite well otherwise. Thank you all...

5of6,

I think of her mainly when there are triggers that remind me...and i do post here sometimes to "vent those out" and be done with it. I actually enjoy thae way I feel afterwards.

To answer your question, NO I am not seeking or hoping for a reconciliation with her. It is too late for that. I won't go into the sordid and salacious details, but what I belatedly learned of her hidden, sleazy affair activities and her conduct towards OMW and OM's kids caused me to lose ALL RESPECT for her as a person of honor. It would take a major effort for me ever to be able to see her in a positive light again and I know that she will likely never be willing to swallow her stubborn pride to accomplish that. She is an AVOIDER. She never admitted anything, never told the truth even when discovered, never gave any explanation, and never even said "goodbye". She was like an adultering cockroach...she ran from the light and hid in the crevices immediately.

Even after her affair was known and exposed (and divorce was inevitable by her own choice), I asked her for one last cordial talk for "closure"...she agreed saying "that would be fine--we will talk soon". She never did and just ran away. Someday, I would like one 10-minute phone call with a simple acknowledgement of the truth and the pain she caused & a genuine expression of remorse for it. That's all I want from her anymore...I doubt I will ever get even that.

Reading that I see you don't expect to reconcile, I see venom, but I definitely don't see indifference to WxW. Indifference might indicate you'd moved on, that you were ready to start again.

You grief seems to have gone on rather long, and I wondered if it might have tipped over into pathological grief.

Anyway, I see you're interested in someone. If you'll take some non-MB advice from someone whose marriage ended at a similar age, don't underrate yourself (I sense you might tend to do this, and the D won't have helped that) and choose carefully. I think women don't see aging in men the same way men regard aging in women. Your choices might be broader than you think.

I don't see "venom" in SDCWman's posts at all, but rather RIGHTEOUS ANGER...I think that is both expected and healthy...I also see in his posts someone that is very well read and studied in matters of adultery...Nothing wrong with that...

I suspect that you see "venom" because of what your signature line says:


~emphasis mine

Mrs. W

SDC...I don't know whether or not you ever got to depose your xww, but I've seen this particular resentment several times over my years here and it is one of the reasons I strongly encourage betrayed spouses to be sure to take a deposition of the wayward spouse no matter what.

I know it's expensive to some and they just want to end it. But a deposition allows you to ask any and all questions you want and they must be answered. It forever documents their words in writing and though the process continues thereafter....at least you'd have some closure forever codified.


I wonder if 5of6 is worried about his wife's first husband (if any) and whether he is still interested in his affairage wife...seeing that he bumped a thread with that particular comment that was lasted posted on in Feb.?

Don't worry 5o6, the divorced betrayed's always await news of the karma bus. They may ACT like they are indifferent (and hopefully turn it over to God as it will happen on His time anyway), but secretly they are just waiting to hear the news. Especially when kids are involved and they have to endure an enmeshed life in and around the adulterers.

Mr. Wondering

Supressed guilt.

Want2Stay

MrsW

I see venom because anger is venomous. Not because of my affairage (which BTW I am not proud of).

I agree with you Mr S's anger is well justified.

But my point wasn't whether the anger was right or wrong - just that it might have gone on a bit long.

Sorry 5outof6, it read to me like "get over it already" and since Dr. Harley compares the pain of adultery to rape or the death of a child, I think saying that is pretty insensitive, kwim?

As far as SDCWman finding someone else goes, I don't think he's gonna have too many problems there...Not sure if you are aware or not, but he's an M.D....To many women that is the same as him having "HUSBAND" tattooed on his forehead. I think he will fair just fine when he is ready...

Mrs. W

Oh two other comments...

want2stay
No, it's not suppressed, I feel it and recognise it often.

Mr W
No, I was married, W was single. I'm not proud of what I did.
No, there's no BxH. I was intrigued by SDCWman's post on another thread and read his story. Having done that, I wondered if he might be experiencing a pathological grief reaction, and seeing that the thread was relatively recent, asked the question.

I think this means you think my BxW is waiting for something bad to happen to me and my W, possibly mediated by God. Is that right? You might be right. Bad things happen a lot. I'm an atheist so I don't agree with you about 'His time'.

I don't think any of this post is much use to SDCWMan but I'd be happy to continue whatever-this-is on another thread, mods permitting.

5outof6,

I'd be interested in a thread where you talked about why affairages are such a bad idea...Hearing what you've learned from your horrible choices...Whether or not you've genuinely apologized to your BexW...What your poor choices have done to your children, if any...Sort of a "cautionary tale" thread if you will...

What do you think?

Mrs. W

Yes I've been thinking about writing about that, and a few other things. Time permitting.

I agree with everything you said in your last post BTW.

You rock for coming on here and spreading your knowledge...Its good to see these things from all angles...DUDE

I don't see it the same way you do, I don't think he has pathological grief. We all grieve differently and in our own timetables and it's understandable that he would just like to have her be straight with him for once...of course we know that's not likely to ever happen. At least he's moving on and seeing someone new, with time it will all fade into a lesser memory and he'll be okay...but she won't, she'll still have herself to contend with.

Anger is not always venomous. There is such a thing as righteous anger.

So you are telling me that if someone killed your entire family and you were angry at them for doing it, that you would be venomous?

Sorry, I simply don't agree. There is such a thing as righteous anger.

Actually anger itself is neither good, nor bad, it is simply the product of circumstances.

What is good or bad are the circumstances or what you do in response to your anger.

Anger can, but doesn't have to be venomous. It can also be a motivator, a catalyst for change, for growth and so forth.

But it's not a valid universal constant to say anger is venomous.

SDCWman,

Seems your xWW and mine were cut from the same cloth. I got the same story, she'd tell me everything, answer all my questions after the divorce was over. She didn't want it used against her.

Never happened.

I guess I'm warped in my thinking that if what she was doing was such a good idea, so noble, thoughtful and the best for all involved that she would be happy to answer questions about it, is just whacked. <- tongue in cheek.

Perhaps a bit of a DJ.

However, what is not a DJ is that when you promise to do something and then don't do it, you are a liar.

My xWW is a liar, pure and simple. Only now, she really cannot lie to me anymore. She is only lying to herself.

5of6,

Thank you for your concern and I appreciate your advice. I know that I am not alone, by a long shot, among BSs in having occaisional bouts of "venom", triggered "grief recall", and/or a fading desire to hear at least some measure of "closure" from their WS/xWS. I would hardly consider this pathological--in fact, I would be seriously concerned about any BS who didn't deal with these emotions and memories for at least a few years. I would wonder if they are just burying them, living in denial of their understandable grief/violation, or if they ever were truly lovingly committed to their WS/xWS in the first place.

I have read that it takes generally about 1 year for ever 4 years of togetherness to "be done with it". If accurate, that would mean approx. 3 years for me and am still a little shy of 2 years since the D became final. So, I cut myself some slack to still "vent" and hurt a bit from time to time. Fortunately, the time between "recalls" is growing farther and farther apart very rapidly now. You are much farther out from your past situation than I am from mine...

I can honestly say that I do not miss her anymore and I am soooooo glad I never see her anymore. It really is good to be completely out-of-contact with her and I am WAY better off for it (that took me some time to fully appreciate). [For a while, xWW was making noises about us "being friends" or "at least friendly" (as she put it) and after the few rare contacts we did have in '07-'08, she would strangely text/email things like "thank you for talking to me", "thank you for listening...", and "know that I am but a thought away..." I finally realized how unhealthy (and cake-eating-ish) this was for me and put a firm end to it all in 8/08. No going back!]

I am reminded of how my then-W acted and felt about XXX, a close male relative who abused her sexually as a child. She, for years while were dating/married had an "approach-and-withdraw", "love-hate" relationship with him. This went on for years (and even decades after the sad incidents took place) and she told me that she hoped every time she would "approach and open up" with him, that he would at least acknowledge and apologize for what he had done so many years ago. He never did, at least not while we were together, and she finally gave up on the prospect and basically cut him out of her life.

I have read a lot about what "true forgiveness" is and what it is not. TF is MUTUAL conciliation and it requires genuine and sincere input from BOTH parties. That I know may never happen. In its absence, the BS is left with "acceptance" which is simply becoming indifferent and detached from the offending person and no longer allowing them or their memories to be a source of pain. I am close, but not quite there yet. When I am, I am sure I will just apathetically delete any emails or voicemails that may possibly come along regarding xWW. :-)

As for your point about my current GF, believe me--I am in NO rush whatsoever and I will NOT SETTLE for anything that "isn't right" (as ALL waywards DO). I have no problem attracting quality female attention and have not been shy about walking away from several relationships I knew were not "serious, long-term potential". Thanks for the pat on back--I promise not 'under-rate' myself. I am a good-looking, loving, loyal, smart, and successful physician who is highly regarded and respected by many--being single for a while until "someone really special" comes along does not worry me one bit. I know I will be glad I did, rather than rushing into something out of need or desperation and being sorry later (again...the usual story of the WS). Thanks again, and I am so glad to hear that you are doing so well!

Mrs. W,

Thank you for your support--I have read many of your posts on many threads and I find your humble candor and honest story to be refreshing and inspirational...thank you again.

I was not offended by 5of6's post...whether one calls it "venom" or "righteous anger" (I do like your definition better), it is something that will pass with time and I eventually have to let go of completely. I am getting there, but not yet fully "there" yet and I'm not going to rush beyond what time I need to do it healthily. Everybody "heals" at their own rate and I may be a bit slower than some BSs because:

--I trusted xWW so completely and was utterly taken by surprise with what I learned
--I did LOVE her whole-heartedly and my innate belief in "loyalty no matter what" was not reciprocated
--I never had a "D-day" or a confession/admission of any sort
--I "found out things" in a piecemeal, bit-by-bit fashion over an extended period of time via friends & OM's xBW
--I found the sordid details to be a revolting repudiation of the person I had known so well and for so long
--I know that xWW is unable to face me or even look me in the eyes
(I AM SO GLAD THAT SHE IS STAYING AWAY FROM ME COMPLETELY NOW!)

Yes, I have read and learned a tremendous amount to help myself understand the mechanisms involved, even as I find the decision-making involved to be completely baffling--as virtually all BSs do. I have become somewhat of a "lay-expert" on this topic, a subject I NEVER expected or wanted to be anywhere near. It has helped me gain some peace and given me some tools to help other's I know who are in the "utter confusion" stage that I was in ~2 years ago.

No hard feelings, 5of6, I know you have been through heck as well--but you are also much farther out from it then I currently am...God Bless

Mr. W,

I was taken aback and STRUCK by what you wrote here. No, there was no deposition or trial...we just made a private 'settlement agreement'. You are completely correct and I have regretted that and have realized that I was played for at least a year now with regard to this. Not with respect to the numerical monetary settlement which was 'fair' in the strictly legal sense (I live in a community-property, no-fault state so there isn't much 'wiggle-room'), but in the emotional-justice sense as you so wisely alluded to. Allow me to explain and unburden this element of the story...

During our separation period (the A was in progress beforehand and throughout w/o my knowledge), we were in MC...well I was--she wasn't there with the same motivations and sincerity that I was, I now know. [Yes, I am ashamed to admit this: I hadn't found MB yet, was ignorant of its principles, unknowingly enabled cake-eating, and was so distraught and desperate to reconcile that I was blindedly in denial to the red-flags and ignored warnings from friends...STUPID!] Early in this period, I was given solid warnings/evidence from a friend that I "should have her followed". WW was a master of manipulation at "giving me just enough" tenderness & sincerity to convince me that "there was hope" and I shouldn't rock the boat, so I didn't (OM's BW was trying to find me then but we never made contact until way later--she knew WAY more obviously as OM had confessed to her finally under pressure). I have many times since fantasized about "nuclear exposure" and confronting her with documentary evidence right in front of our MC--she would have been utterly destroyed and the A might have crumbled quickly then, as her 'victim-hood/halo' act would have been revealed for the exaggerated sham and rationalization mecahnism that it was. DARN!

Later, when she filed and became intermittently belligerent & hostile in the face of my tears, she cowed me into not going the 'trial route' for what I now know were strictly her own selfish reasons miscast as altruism ("I hope we can just be amicable about this?"). She threatened me with $6k/mo in spousal support--later quietly dropped--and going 'full-out' if I didn't go along with the no-trial/settlement route.

I have since learned that the spousal support was a hollow threat. She had NO grounds for anything more than trivial alimony (no kids, full-time career, self-sufficient, got property, etc.). She didn't want the TIME, EXPENSE, and TRUTH of a trial and adultery is ADMISSIBLE in deciding spousal support issues. She just wanted it "over" quickly and "cleanly" to be with OM and not be humiliated by public admission of the A's role. I relunctantly went along to keep my (substantial) retirement accounts from being disturbed and in the foolish hope that she might reconsider at some point during the process. DARN #2!

The only glimmer in all this is that I later found out from OM's xBW#3 (!!!), that her an POSOM/her WH DID go to trial and my xWW was deposed as part of that. OM's xBW read me key parts of the depo on the phone--so the A is 'on record' and xWW knows that I have been made privy to it...but you are right, it would have been much better to have it happen with me sitting across the table and staring her down while she testified under oath.

I almost wish (non-sensically, I know) that there was some way for me to 're-open' some element of it somehow...just to have her deposed and have to admit the whole truth under oath in front of me. Would be be worth a lot of $$$$ to me, LOL.

My story is a MB case study in what "not to do" when emotions obscure "having a plan" ...

Just re-read the new posts on the thread...I didn't realize that 5of6 was a PARTICIPANT, not a past VICTIM, of the 7yr. Affairage.

5of6, please post a thread on your experiences when you are ready...your insights are invalueable.

Thank you.......

BUMPING for ME!....

Quote "I almost wish (non-sensically, I know) that there was some way for me to 're-open' some element of it somehow...just to have her deposed and have to admit the whole truth under oath in front of me. Would be be worth a lot of $$$$ to me, LOL." unquote.

I would love to know if this case can be opened on the basis of non transparency? Any lawyers out there...?

Imagine,

I am not an attorney so I cannot say for sure, but I strongly suspect not. I live in a community-property, "no-fault" state, so a WS does not need a "valid reason" to pursue divorce and a 50-50 settlement. The statutes do not recognize adultery, manipulation, , cake-eating, blame-shifting, scapegoating, emotional devastation, and lying (except under oath, of course) as 'crimes'. Sadly, it is quite 'legal' to cheat, take advantage of your BS's sincere reconciliation efforts, and lie your butt off to him/her/friends/family/counselors, etc.

Please correct me if I am wrong anyone...

Sadly, SDCWman, you are very right. I wish I could give you different legal advice, but it is what it is....(

BTW, I'm in corporate law, so you can't hate me for being an ambulance chaser : - ) In fact, one of my last trials was defending a doc who made a REALLY bad call, patient died and he was sued for malpractice. This guy was so out there, he missed the last half of the trial because he had a vacation planned and wasn't going to cancel it....needless to say, that didn't go over big with the jury. About 3 years later, he was convicted on federal drug trafficing charges under the guise of operating a "legitimate" methadone clinic).

Brits,

I have no malice toward legitimate attorney's pursuing legitimate claims (and, yes, there are BAD doctors out there against whom malpractice claims are warranted).

Thanks for your confirmation on the original question--as I suspected, there is no legal recourse available to most BSs for the deceit and pain inflicted upon them by their WSs/xWSs.

I always wondered about suing for "pain and suffering". I mean I would think what a BS is put thru is the prime example of that.

I wonder if its worth anything to ask for the money back. A short letter describing her action and past legal consequenses.

Let an intermediary handle it. If there is no response, so what!

There is no biblical chance that the two of you would be allowed to reconnect.

Keep her way out of your face...

Imagine,

I don't understand what you are getting at here...

A) She IS "way out of my face"! I have not spoken to her since she called me last summer and I have not had any face-to-face contact with her in well over a year (when I gave her each and every one of our photo albums--dozens of them--from our 13 years together). I realized pretty quickly after that last 7/08 phone call that, despite her "baby-steps" toward expressing some remorse and regret, it was mainly about her seeking validation and condoning 'forgiveness' from me while she continued her AM with POSOM. Maybe they had a temporary fight/falling out, maybe she was having a moment of nostalgic apology, maybe she realizes how badly she messed up (but is determined to 'see it through' to the bitter end), but in the end it was just continuing cake-eating and her trying to hang on to me/my family in some tenuous, insincere, and non-committal way. As I have mentioned earlier on this thread, I thankfully do not even see her at a distance anymore since she seems to have stopped visiting her friend in my neighborhood--perhaps they are no longer close anymore. Its definitely 'for the best' for me.

B) Asking "for the money back" is an utter waste of time and I don't want to contact her (even indirectly). The $$ is hers legally and I have long ago put an end to her (several previous) requests for more funds and property (she has asked for 'reimbursement' for certain expenses and additional household items before in '07-'08). I told her/her atty that I will follow the legal decree's requirements and NOTHING MORE -- she can keep her 30 PIECES OF SILVER and be gone. POSOM will take 15 of them when they inevitably divorce for the 6th time between them.

Hi SDCW,

I completely understand your point of view.

I'm a negotiator. I believe in the principle "If you don't ask you don't get"

If she is avaricious for her thirty pieces... let it be. The baggage getting it may well make it not worth the effort.

I'm glad she has now left the neighbour alone. may you find the peace that "Kick me" has in his heart after divorce.

Sample letter to xWW (tongue-firmly-in-cheek)

xWW,

Approximately 2 years ago we agreed to a financial & property settlement as part of our divorce...errr, YOUR divorce because, as you well know, I selfishly wanted no part of that and in fact did EVERYTHING a man could possibly do to genuinely effect a reconciliation--efforts that were spurned and rejected by you many, many times over the course of a year. I appreciate your belated recognition last year of my sincerity and admission of your own “hardheadedness” in “taking me for granted” and “not listening” when you had numerous chances to avoid what I foolishly assumed to be a mutual travesty at the time.

I have come to see how ridiculous I was in trying to forestall your happiness; you need not apologize again and I am sorry for standing in the way of your undeniable self-improvement in the past. With the wisdom granted by time and much more information coming to light, I have come to see how unfair this was to you even though it was technically "legal" at the time. I am sure, with the benefit of hindsight and reflection, that you feel the same way.

As you know, since you filed for dissolution many unresolved nagging questions have been answered and much confusing past behavior has been explained by the facts that I have learned to be irrefutably true. Simply put, you really sold yourself short by concealing and denying for so long how truly special your lover was & is and how proud you must surely be & have been of your relationship with him, regardless of its co-adulterous nature and outset. You have been far too modest, xWW, and you no doubt would welcome this renewed opportunity to prove all of that definitively to the world in an act of unselfish sacrifice that befits and ennobles the love you two clearly share as morally incorruptible soul-mates.

You have written me before that you “aren’t materialistic” and I believe you entirely! I am completely willing to prostitute myself for money on your behalf so that you can have this chance to show how “above it all” and enlightened you are by comparison. It is really the very least I could do…

Of the approximately $1.3 million in cash and equity that you were sullied with, I would be willing to accept, say, $400,000 (1/3rd) worth of burden off your hands as a testament to the wonder & honor of your inspirational romance. I sincerely hope that I have not insulted either you or POSOM by pegging the value of your love and integrity too low. Feel free to increase the amount as you see fit as only you two know how truly priceless a couple you are. Myself, friends, family, OM’s xBW, and kids--we are mere ignorant bystanders who are benighted in the absence of your omnipotent and irrepressibly uplifting true-love.

I apologize for not offering you this golden opportunity earlier; please forgive me for assuming that you could possibly want to be dirtied by these trivial and disreputable concerns.

Thank you and I will eagerly await your check just as fast as you can write it,

xBH

I love it, SDCWman! Wouldn't you just LOVE to really send it? The look on her face while reading it would be priceless I think!

Mrs. W

P.S. You've just GOT to tell us what your name means/stands for - if you can, that is...It drives me nuts that I read part of it as "woman" - you are very clearly NOT a woman! When I say the name out loud to Mr. W it does, unfortunately, come out as "SDC Woman" though...Sorry 'bout dat!

Maybe I'll just call ya "Whoa Man"!

Mrs. W

I absolutely loved this letter! You have a cunning wit about you even with all you have been through and being back out in this treacherous world of dating post-divorce. (It ain't fun!) You're a good man Charlie Brown!

You DO have a beautiful way to prostitute yourself for money.

While we love all this letter, what do you think she would do...??

1) Letter: As I noted, it was clearly sarcastic and meant comedically for fellow-MBers only. I am not planning on sending it (or anything like it) to xWW as nothing productive would come of that. She's not going to suddenly find her moral compass again because of what I say and she certainly isn't going to altruistically return any money. We all know what an utter waste of time it is to use logic, reasoning, guilt, or pleading with a WS. I did all that a thousand times over in the past (pre-D) with predictably fruitless results. She ignored a million red flags--moral, social, emotional, practical....you name it. The Karma Bus is now rapidly gaining steam and bearing down on her with some recent events (perhaps I will post details of this later, "powder dry" for now).

2) ScreenName: Sorry for the confusion...I realize now that having the initial "W" right before "man" might lead to gender recognition issues LOL. The 4 initials in caps refer to a couple of recreational identifiers that are important to me. I know this sounds paranoid, but I'm relunctant to go into more detail just in case unwanted eyes may be lurking here. I doubt it...but its possible as I did mention to xWW and xFIL a long time ago that I had perused this site and I know (by HER admission) that she has "kept track of" me via the internet in the past. That is how she found out info about my brother's wedding last summer and wondered how her "sending a gift would be received". Bizarre, I know. I wonder how she sleeps at all.....

Thanks, BB, appreciate ya!