Marriage Builders
Posted By: mimi_here CATPERSON - 02/10/09 02:22 AM
If it matters to you at all, I wanted to let you know that you are saying almost VERBATIM what MORTARMAN tried to hammer into my head during my PLAN B...and he was absolutely correct...

If you are interested, that thread is on ACE'S SUCCESS STORIES.."MY GIFT TO YOU"..

Mortarman used to call himself the PLAN B CZAR...I think...HE'S GREAT!!

Any time I came out of the DARKNESS, he would BLAST ME and tell me how I was prolonging my H's affair..and he was sooo RIGHT...

I'm not as familiar as others with T2L's situation..it may be different than mine was...

But I think your posts are INSIGHTFUL and of GREAT VALUE in communicating how PLAN B should operate...
Posted By: mimi_here Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 02:31 AM
Check out this post from Mortarman to me in MAY 2003

Quote
Mimi,

Let's look at the other side of this. It might be GOOD that you have these loose ends to tie up. Why do I say this? Let's look at this.

You are in Plan B now. He may think you are not serious, but may wonder what you are up to. look at my post with ALost Soul today. I think that Plan B is for getting you ready for either your husband's return or a new life without him. So...start getting on with your life. Start tying up the loose ends. do it on your own. Dont tell him...just do it. Start a new account at a new bank. Move your electronic payments to the new account. Anything that is his, begin to shut that down. tell him before hand in an email or letter. "H, I have made the car payment on your car this month. That account is now being closed. You will need to find other arrangements for next month for payment of your car. Mimi."

Begin to start separating things Now, what will this do? several things actually. As you know, this is not a game. But there are rules. You are in Plan B and finally getting on with your life. If your husband is never going to return, it is time you start getting things ready for your new life. If he is, it is time you stop enabling him. I started doing this to my wife when I got in Plan B. I shut off the car insurance on our cars, and got new insurance just on my car. She was forced to go get her own insurance.

Now, besides the pain of having to do all ofthis to them, what else will be done here? They will begin to see that you are moving on with your life. You are serious about NC. You are serious about moving forward. This will force them off the fence. If he still loves you, he will begin to panic that he is losing you. He wont hear from you because you are in Plan B. He will only see your actions. And they will be slowly turning out the lights on the marriage. If it is still in him, he will come looking for you before it is too late.

So, I see these loose ends as good. Take your time. Begin to shut things down a little every week. As each tie is broken, you will begin to feel stronger. If he comes back, you will feel more in control of yourself in the reconciliation. If he doesnt, then Plan B will lead you to the eventuality of no love for him...and then you can begin your new life.

I still bet that your hubby will be like my wife. When Plan B is fully NC, and he sees you beginning to turn out the lights, I believe it will cause the fog to begin to dissipate. tne we will see what kind of man he is.
Posted By: mimi_here Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 02:32 AM
Quote
He will only see your actions. And they will be slowly turning out the lights on the marriage. If it is still in him, he will come looking for you before it is too late.

THIS IS EXACTLY, EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED!!
Posted By: myfamilyilove Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 02:35 AM
I don't get the whole Mortomer Plan B czar thing. Having read his posts he broke his Plan B constantly!
Posted By: mimi_here Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 02:40 AM
I think we learn from our mistakes...take what we learn to help others...

Both Mortarman and I are happily recovered in our marriages...


Posted By: angie1718 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 02:41 AM
Quote
If it matters to you at all, I wanted to let you know that you are saying almost VERBATIM what MORTARMAN tried to hammer into my head during my PLAN B...and he was absolutely correct...

Mimi,
I know this post is intended for catperson so forgive me for the invasion.
I'm a FWW and I've also been adviced by Mortarman, he is absolutely wonderful. I think T2L could really use his expertise.
I have been following her thread, I think she is doing good on her PB but I also see where cat is coming from.
Anyway, I really think T2L should call for Mortar's advice or Mark or tst. Just my 0.002.

Angie


Posted By: mimi_here Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 02:43 AM
TST and SMB have been posting to her...
Posted By: catperson Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:49 AM
Thanks mimi. Kind words. I was starting to get a little out of joint.

I've been trying to be as diplomatic as possible, but it really bugs me that he has all the manifestations of an abusive/controlling personality, but she's not protecting herself from it. In fact, Harleys say you should not do MB with an abusive/controlling personality because that person can twist it around to his advantage.

Oh well, they all seem to think it's all going fine. I just hope she remembers today 10 years from now when her kids are imploding.
Posted By: Trying2live Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 05:14 AM
Ya know I have tried to be as kind as possible, but I do not appreciate you prognosticating my children's future through the eyes of you and your brother's past. My children did not grow up in your household.

Well of course my H seems controlling and manipulative he just got plan B'd. In fact it seems that most WS's are not happy campers when they get Plan B'd. Every single one of them are quite upset so how is my H any different.

My sitch is not your childhood and my children are not you and your brother. My H was a pretty darn decent guy up to this point. He had some internal stuff he still needed to work through from his childhood but he was not a tyrant. Each and every one of us has those little things to work through and my H isn't any different. Yup he lost right now as are most WS's. But that does not mean they are all hopeless.

All people by nature have controlling issues in some small way. All people, so I don't veiw my H as any different either.

So let's say that you have a spouse that is very passive and you are the spouse that is bossy and controlling does that mean you should not implement the MB program to improve your marriage? IF so then you probably should have quit judging by your own posts.

Ya know I told you that you had valid points but when you go near prognosticating over my children you crossed a boundary with me that few should ever go. So yes stay off my thread.
Posted By: mimi_here Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 05:25 AM
CAT:

Again this was meant for YOU..was why I made a separate thread..

I was sharing my opinion that you have a GREAT and HELPFUL UNDERSTANDING of PLAN B...
Posted By: Holyheart Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 06:58 AM
Hey -- We're all on the same side here. Affairs suck. Waywards suck. OPs suck more.

And we're all hurt and suffering and trying to cope.

And sometimes we BSs just don't want to be told that we're not doing something the right way. It's not that we're not listening, it's just that sometimes we're listening with our hearts instead of our heads.

T2L, Firenice, Hope and I are from long-term marriages. We've been with our spouses for many years and feel we know them better than anyone else. Or at least we used to.

Sometimes I know I choose to hear what I want to hear based on my history with H forgetting (or not wanting to accept) that he's no longer my H but an alien WH.

I think we all appreciate the advice from the veterans. They've "been there, done that" and can walk us through the steps to better our chances of recovery. But we all know that what works in one situation may not work in another.

So give us BSs a break. We're still in pain whether we're in Plan A or B or D or FU. And we're physically and mentally exhausted. We've been through he!! and back and -- guess what? --we're still in he!!.

So please, vets, keep the advice coming. Just don't be offended if we don't "get" everything offered.

Posted By: hopenpray Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 08:51 AM
Hi guys

I just wanted to say that I agree with CAT and MIMI...

My planB sucked and looking back, WH manipulated me and got his own way many times...MIMI has always advised us BS to be DARK and she is sooo right.
My problem was that I thought I knew my WH better then anyone (together 27 yrs since 15yrs old)...BIG MISTAKE.....all WS are the same.....

I am now divorced since Dec and he married the OW 20 days later....

He wants to be friends....rattled off a bunch of good qualities that he thinks I have...strangely all the qualities OW doesn't have from listening to my boys....I told him its not going to happen...I am still plan Bing him for my sanity.

He has dragged his feet at cutting some ties with me like stopping some debt orders that I should be paying (he just deducts the amounts from my maintenance money every month) its so frustrating....

Hows this for fog babble....if we don't communicate how will we know if we'll ever get back together in the future? We don't know what can happen tomorrow?
I was speechless.....

sorry for rambling on about myself....
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 03:33 PM
Oh, GEEZ...

When are we BS going to GET these plans and just implement them and stop making excuses for cracking them?

And that's what they are EXCUSES, just like the waywards make. Justifications (oh, well, it was about the kids, or, I didn't KNOW it was going to be WS on the other end of the line (Bullpucky, BTW), or whatever emergency du jour we can conjure up to get our own fix).

My plan B worked, when I got dark. Plain and simple. Now, I didn't recover my marriage (it takes two), but I FINALLY, after one poor attempt, instituted a good plan B, intermediary and all, and it worked to clear me up and shut him out.

Y'all are gonna have to suck it up and get dark. That's it.

If you do, you'll get a better chance at recovery, and, trust me, you're gonna need all your strength for that, cuz plan B is a walk in the park, in comparison...

Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 03:54 PM
I don't think her problem is with criticism of her Plan B. I think she is offended by the continual judgement about what SHE is or isn't doing for her kids. She's offended and IMHO has every right to be.

You said it, she got it, she didn't happen to agree.

Let it go.

She's doing the best she can do under the circumstances. It's her choice and we need to respect that.

We aren't the MB nazis.



Posted By: silentlucidity Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 03:57 PM
Wow, I was speaking generally.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:00 PM
I wasn't speaking directly to you, SL. I just clicked on "reply" at the latest post - that was you.

My apologies if I offended you.

Fox


ETA: She reminds me of LilSis
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:08 PM
No, no offense. I get frustrated, just as I'm sure so many did with me, when one SAYS they are doing Plan B, but then excuses abound for why it just CANNOT be done. I was one of those people, making excuses. It wasn't until I stopped that senseless behavior that I was able to let go.

Some just aren't cut out for these plans. They take discipline . I was terrible at Plan A. Just terrible. I know that about myself. But recovery, dang, that's just tough all around.

It IS difficult with children, but nowhere near impossible, and picking up the phone and reiterating your plan B letter is just both spouses getting their fix. I did it, I know.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:19 PM
Yep, I get that part and agree with you.

As you know, I SUCKED at Plan B.

Now that I am a few years away form the D-day and can look back more clearly on my M, I am GRATEFUL to be divorced. I don't think it is in WxH to change. I would have wasted MORE of my years by staying with him and continuing to be the only one trying to make a better relationship.

As you said, it takes two.

Sometimes success IS divorce.

I feel for T2L in the aspect that she is very sensitive of her children. She is doing everything she can think of to do and has to take into account her own situation and apply the OFFERED advice as she sees fit. The advice is OFFERED, it is T2L's choice to use it or not.

Cat has many good points but as soon as T2L starts being told what her boy is thinking from someone who ISN'T her boy, she takes offense. I would too, with the way it is being said.

Again, we are back to delivery of the OFFERED advice.





Posted By: silentlucidity Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:28 PM
At a certain point, the delivery can cause some to turn a deaf ear to even the best advice.

A certain somebody comes to mind in the Foxy situation, who shall remain nameless

OK not nameless, it's BR!!!!


Some good advice can get lost when we are sensitive to our childrens' needs and feel like we need to DEFEND our choices.

There is no need to defend them, they are our choices. People here and just trying to give us the best TOOLS so we make the most informed choices.
Posted By: chrisner Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by cowgirl
I SUCKED at Plan B.


Oh come now Cowgirl. I though your Plan B was beautiful. It was all dark sort of like a big mall opening with several of those giant air raid lights moving back and forth into the sky. Oh, and fireworks too. Don’t forget the fireworks.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:36 PM
Ah, the LOOK AT ME, Plan B approach...

I SUCKED at Plan A
Posted By: jayne241 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:38 PM
Yep, what wildhorses said.

Sure, PB is supposed to be dark. But, all you folks saying she isn't dark enough, those of you who recovered, you weren't entirely dark either. And again, I'm really not sure what you would have her do differently! As in now!

Why keep beating a dead horse? The sandwich incident was a mistake, noted and addressed, why are y'all still saying that unless she does things differently her son is gonna end up in counseling for life? Isn't that harsh? Is that helpful? Is it helpful if she's already doing the best she can *now*?

Again, what precisely would you have her do differently than what she is doing right now?

If you say that she should force her kids to PB their dad, ok that's your opinion, I happen to disagree and she isn't going to do that. So noted, she has thanked folks for their input.

What else??? What specifically, that she is doing today, would you have her do differently? She cannot control her WH, she can only control herself.

And... in all the history of MB... she has the absolute most experienced team of IMs and advisors working with her. Are all y'all saying you don't trust Neak, Pep, and Kimmy (Dealan-de) to judge whether or not she's as dark as she should be? Plus SB is on board with the one planned break of the NC, and with the 2nd PBL.

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 1 planned break of NC, when he fixed her sink?

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 2nd PBL?

Again, and I asked this on her thread and I thought it was asked and answered... WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK SHE SHOULD DO DIFFERENTLY?

Everyone's input is valuable. But some things she isn't willing to do (kids go NC) and some things she's admitted and corrected (sandwiches) and some things she can't control (where he parks or takes the kids) and some things are influenced by legal considerations (getting a job, getting a legal visitation schedule).

Of all those things IMHO one might say that last category is making excuses. I don't think it's making excuses, but some folks might.

She has a reason for not getting a job. Legal counsel. She also has a reason for not getting court-ordered visitation schedules or child support. All of it is on her thread, but if that's the specific thing you disagree with, then say that.

Because all I hear is fuzzy accusations and fearmongering that if she doesn't "go darker" that her son will be emotionally scarred forever.

How do you think that makes a mom feel? A mom who can only control what *she* does, not what her WH does?

Fearmongering... that's a word I've been trying to think of for days now.

For the record - her H was NOT abusive before this happened. Not all sitches are identical.

No one attacks a BW when they are forced to see the WH during court-ordered visitation exchanges. Or Charlotte when the judge ordered her to spend time with Grey on inventorying all the stuff at her house. Some of the stuff T2L is doing is to keep from having worse things happen if things become court-ordered. Right now she *doesn't* see WH during visitations, he doesn't see her... and he doesn't take his kids anywhere near Sea Hag. That would change if the courts got involved. There would be overnights at the apartment he shares with Sea Hag.

He also deposits 90% of his income into her bank account. That means Sea Hag must not get much. That's good, non? That would change if she got a job or started moving money from that account.

And she's also incorporating the example of... sorry, forgot the name of the poster and don't have time to look it up right now. The example of planting a seed in the WH's mind, that she won't just wait around forever... is that what y'all are disagreeing with? Because I know some folks disagre with that. That's fine, T2L has stated she appreciates all input, she noted and acknowledged that opinion but there were others who thought it was a good idea, and she went with what she thought would work the best in her sitch, knowing her H as she does.

That isn't her only choosing to listen to folks who are justifying her mistakes. That is her selecting one plan of several, using her best judgement. If she didn't select your plan, oh well.

For me she was too focussed on preparing for PB at the start of her PA, instead of being fully into PA. Fine, I expressed my opinion, others disagreed, I let it go.

Mimi you can tell me to get off this thread since it's your thread and it prolly sounds like I'm attacking you and cat. But I absolutely love cat and I hope the fact that I disagree with her on this one thing doesn't make her mad at me, cus I'm not mad at her. And I very much respect you Mimi and think of you as one of the wise and experienced vets around here.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:42 PM
Quote
I get frustrated, just as I'm sure so many did with me, when one SAYS they are doing Plan B, but then excuses abound for why it just CANNOT be done. I was one of those people, making excuses. It wasn't until I stopped that senseless behavior that I was able to let go.

Some just aren't cut out for these plans. They take discipline . I was terrible at Plan A. Just terrible. I know that about myself. But recovery, dang, that's just tough all around.

Um, excuse me, but IMO she has shown remarkable discipline and she has done about the best PA and PB of anyone here!

Sure you can find holes in her PB. You can in anyone's. Her's is as good or better than anyone else's who has recovered.

At least one of her "holes" is an intended application of SOMETHING THAT STEVE HARLEY RECOMMENDED TO SOMEONE.

Quote
It IS difficult with children, but nowhere near impossible, and picking up the phone and reiterating your plan B letter is just both spouses getting their fix. I did it, I know.

And *where* does it say she's gonna do that?
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by SL
People here and just trying to give us the best TOOLS so we make the most informed choices.

SOMETIMES, they are. OTHER TIMES, they are just trying to be RIGHT. KWIM?

Originally Posted by FunnyMan
Oh come now Cowgirl. I though your Plan B was beautiful. It was all dark sort of like a big mall opening with several of those giant air raid lights moving back and forth into the sky. Oh, and fireworks too. Don’t forget the fireworks.

flirt Well, I can't really deny that. grin

I think sometimes we sabotage ourselves for a reason - because the end result from that sabotage is really what we NEED.

I have regrets, I have things I wish I would have done differently - but I don't think the outcome would have changed.

Dealing with Plan B as I did was what I NEEDED to do - FINALLY, standing up for myself against him.

Uh....I think we t/j'ed a little. Sorry!

Posted By: jayne241 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:44 PM
A lot of the folks here jumping on the "let's all rip apart T2L's PB"... have y'all even been *reading* her thread??? And keeping up with it from Day One?

As in, not just now reading it and responding to something that happened a long time ago?

Cus I don't think I'm reading the same thread y'all are.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by jayne241
Yep, what wildhorses said.

Sure, PB is supposed to be dark. But, all you folks saying she isn't dark enough, those of you who recovered, you weren't entirely dark either. And again, I'm really not sure what you would have her do differently! As in now!

Why keep beating a dead horse? The sandwich incident was a mistake, noted and addressed, why are y'all still saying that unless she does things differently her son is gonna end up in counseling for life? Isn't that harsh? Is that helpful? Is it helpful if she's already doing the best she can *now*?

Again, what precisely would you have her do differently than what she is doing right now?

If you say that she should force her kids to PB their dad, ok that's your opinion, I happen to disagree and she isn't going to do that. So noted, she has thanked folks for their input.

What else??? What specifically, that she is doing today, would you have her do differently? She cannot control her WH, she can only control herself.

And... in all the history of MB... she has the absolute most experienced team of IMs and advisors working with her. Are all y'all saying you don't trust Neak, Pep, and Kimmy (Dealan-de) to judge whether or not she's as dark as she should be? Plus SB is on board with the one planned break of the NC, and with the 2nd PBL.

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 1 planned break of NC, when he fixed her sink?

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 2nd PBL?

Again, and I asked this on her thread and I thought it was asked and answered... WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK SHE SHOULD DO DIFFERENTLY?

Everyone's input is valuable. But some things she isn't willing to do (kids go NC) and some things she's admitted and corrected (sandwiches) and some things she can't control (where he parks or takes the kids) and some things are influenced by legal considerations (getting a job, getting a legal visitation schedule).

Of all those things IMHO one might say that last category is making excuses. I don't think it's making excuses, but some folks might.

She has a reason for not getting a job. Legal counsel. She also has a reason for not getting court-ordered visitation schedules or child support. All of it is on her thread, but if that's the specific thing you disagree with, then say that.

Because all I hear is fuzzy accusations and fearmongering that if she doesn't "go darker" that her son will be emotionally scarred forever.

How do you think that makes a mom feel? A mom who can only control what *she* does, not what her WH does?

Fearmongering... that's a word I've been trying to think of for days now.

For the record - her H was NOT abusive before this happened. Not all sitches are identical.

No one attacks a BW when they are forced to see the WH during court-ordered visitation exchanges. Or Charlotte when the judge ordered her to spend time with Grey on inventorying all the stuff at her house. Some of the stuff T2L is doing is to keep from having worse things happen if things become court-ordered. Right now she *doesn't* see WH during visitations, he doesn't see her... and he doesn't take his kids anywhere near Sea Hag. That would change if the courts got involved. There would be overnights at the apartment he shares with Sea Hag.

He also deposits 90% of his income into her bank account. That means Sea Hag must not get much. That's good, non? That would change if she got a job or started moving money from that account.

And she's also incorporating the example of... sorry, forgot the name of the poster and don't have time to look it up right now. The example of planting a seed in the WH's mind, that she won't just wait around forever... is that what y'all are disagreeing with? Because I know some folks disagre with that. That's fine, T2L has stated she appreciates all input, she noted and acknowledged that opinion but there were others who thought it was a good idea, and she went with what she thought would work the best in her sitch, knowing her H as she does.

That isn't her only choosing to listen to folks who are justifying her mistakes. That is her selecting one plan of several, using her best judgement. If she didn't select your plan, oh well.

For me she was too focussed on preparing for PB at the start of her PA, instead of being fully into PA. Fine, I expressed my opinion, others disagreed, I let it go.

Mimi you can tell me to get off this thread since it's your thread and it prolly sounds like I'm attacking you and cat. But I absolutely love cat and I hope the fact that I disagree with her on this one thing doesn't make her mad at me, cus I'm not mad at her. And I very much respect you Mimi and think of you as one of the wise and experienced vets around here.

Good post, Jayne. I agree.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by jayne
A lot of the folks here jumping on the "let's all rip apart T2L's PB"... have y'all even been *reading* her thread??? And keeping up with it from Day One?

I'm speaking of ALL of us, past and present, who have attempted or done a mostly stellar Plan B. My initial run at it was not so dark. After opening myself up and not feeling the need to defend my choices, I did a better Plan B.

I don't think anybody is trying to RIP T2L apart here. Seemed to me Mimi was speaking of Cat's advice and understanding of Plan B, not necessarily about T2L.

I don't think anybody needs to DEFEND T2L either.
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Foxy lady
is really what we NEED.

...or what we WANT. I know I wanted out after that last go round.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by MissLucidity
I don't think anybody needs to DEFEND T2L either.

Yeah, but you know I'm gonna. wink

Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by silentlucidity
Originally Posted by Foxy lady
is really what we NEED.

...or what we WANT. I know I wanted out after that last go round.

Yeah, that could be it, too. smile
Posted By: silentlucidity Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by foxy one
SOMETIMES, they are. OTHER TIMES, they are just trying to be RIGHT. KWIM?

Yeah, I get that. I remember all the back and forth on Sis' thread. I generally did not post in those times, because most of what I said would have been diluted out or not heard at all.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by jayne241
Yep, what wildhorses said.

Sure, PB is supposed to be dark. But, all you folks saying she isn't dark enough, those of you who recovered, you weren't entirely dark either. And again, I'm really not sure what you would have her do differently! As in now!

Why keep beating a dead horse? The sandwich incident was a mistake, noted and addressed, why are y'all still saying that unless she does things differently her son is gonna end up in counseling for life? Isn't that harsh? Is that helpful? Is it helpful if she's already doing the best she can *now*?

Again, what precisely would you have her do differently than what she is doing right now?

If you say that she should force her kids to PB their dad, ok that's your opinion, I happen to disagree and she isn't going to do that. So noted, she has thanked folks for their input.

What else??? What specifically, that she is doing today, would you have her do differently? She cannot control her WH, she can only control herself.

And... in all the history of MB... she has the absolute most experienced team of IMs and advisors working with her. Are all y'all saying you don't trust Neak, Pep, and Kimmy (Dealan-de) to judge whether or not she's as dark as she should be? Plus SB is on board with the one planned break of the NC, and with the 2nd PBL.

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 1 planned break of NC, when he fixed her sink?

Is it that y'all are disagreeing with the 2nd PBL?

Again, and I asked this on her thread and I thought it was asked and answered... WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK SHE SHOULD DO DIFFERENTLY?

Everyone's input is valuable. But some things she isn't willing to do (kids go NC) and some things she's admitted and corrected (sandwiches) and some things she can't control (where he parks or takes the kids) and some things are influenced by legal considerations (getting a job, getting a legal visitation schedule).

Of all those things IMHO one might say that last category is making excuses. I don't think it's making excuses, but some folks might.

She has a reason for not getting a job. Legal counsel. She also has a reason for not getting court-ordered visitation schedules or child support. All of it is on her thread, but if that's the specific thing you disagree with, then say that.

Because all I hear is fuzzy accusations and fearmongering that if she doesn't "go darker" that her son will be emotionally scarred forever.

How do you think that makes a mom feel? A mom who can only control what *she* does, not what her WH does?

Fearmongering... that's a word I've been trying to think of for days now.

For the record - her H was NOT abusive before this happened. Not all sitches are identical.

No one attacks a BW when they are forced to see the WH during court-ordered visitation exchanges. Or Charlotte when the judge ordered her to spend time with Grey on inventorying all the stuff at her house. Some of the stuff T2L is doing is to keep from having worse things happen if things become court-ordered. Right now she *doesn't* see WH during visitations, he doesn't see her... and he doesn't take his kids anywhere near Sea Hag. That would change if the courts got involved. There would be overnights at the apartment he shares with Sea Hag.

He also deposits 90% of his income into her bank account. That means Sea Hag must not get much. That's good, non? That would change if she got a job or started moving money from that account.

And she's also incorporating the example of... sorry, forgot the name of the poster and don't have time to look it up right now. The example of planting a seed in the WH's mind, that she won't just wait around forever... is that what y'all are disagreeing with? Because I know some folks disagre with that. That's fine, T2L has stated she appreciates all input, she noted and acknowledged that opinion but there were others who thought it was a good idea, and she went with what she thought would work the best in her sitch, knowing her H as she does.

That isn't her only choosing to listen to folks who are justifying her mistakes. That is her selecting one plan of several, using her best judgement. If she didn't select your plan, oh well.

For me she was too focussed on preparing for PB at the start of her PA, instead of being fully into PA. Fine, I expressed my opinion, others disagreed, I let it go.

Mimi you can tell me to get off this thread since it's your thread and it prolly sounds like I'm attacking you and cat. But I absolutely love cat and I hope the fact that I disagree with her on this one thing doesn't make her mad at me, cus I'm not mad at her. And I very much respect you Mimi and think of you as one of the wise and experienced vets around here.

Exactly. I've been keeping up with T2L's thread from day one and have communicated with her offline as well. From an up close and personal view, T2L is doing a wonderful job in following the plans.

I'm not one to pull any punches, I've been known to be very abrupt but in this case, I think some of the posts to her are out of line.

I don't understand the attacks and it really pisses me off. It's one thing to offer a differing opinion but to keep hammering it ad nausem is not being helpful anymore.

Seriously.
Posted By: Neak Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 05:08 PM
Quote
Oh well, they all seem to think it's all going fine. I just hope she remembers today 10 years from now when her kids are imploding.

This is the exact moment this thread went from being about one person's understanding of Plan B, to a personal attack on another poster.

Meems, love ya as always.

There are also some really good posts on this thread.
Posted By: catperson Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 05:27 PM
As I said before, my only stand is from a psychological prospective. From day one of her posts, her son has been through a wringer. I may be using my brother's experience, but I do so because it is so very similar. It's a decent case study to observe the mental torture an adolescent boy goes through when his dad makes such choices. Her son couldn't bear to sleep alone for months. My brother locked himself in a bathroom when his dad left and had a mental breakdown. And several suicide attempts.

As I also said, my point is that the continued, year-plus lack of resolution one way or another, does more damage to children than any setup, no matter how loving the parents, because the children blame themselves. Always. No matter what you say to them, no matter what they say to you. My point is that if T2L goes beyond her self-imposed April 23 limit - and she has already said she probably will - those kids are stuck in an ever-longer limbo of thinking about WH, OW, and whether dad will ever choose them. And yes, that is what kids think. Not about the mom; about them.

Given the issues DS10 has already had, I get more and more concerned for him. That is all. So I said so. And I stand by it. I've spent over 30 years reading about why and how kids react when the dad leaves, so I'm not just trashing her Plan B because it brings up bad memories or whatever. Her kids - well, her son anyway - is reliving just about every case study I've ever read. And I already tried to say what the outcome was for those kids; that the longer the instability, the more likely the kid ends up a miserable adult who probably can never get better. And those are just the kids lucky enough to go to a therapist and get some form of help, probably a tip of the iceberg in real life.

T2L's daughter may escape most of the typical issues kids have in these situations, cos her dad was around in her critical years (12-16) where she developed her self-worth. That's why she can argue with her dad, and why her brother can't. His self-worth is tied into his dad's feelings for him. And a 10 year old considers a dad leaving as not loving the son. That's just human nature.

My issue was with her keeping the kids in a limbo for however much longer she keeps it going instead of making a decision and giving them a sense of security (what little they can have) by seeing her move forward. She's already waited a year. Now 3 more months. Then who knows? And in the meantime, the kids take it one day at a time, since they have no control in the situation, and go through how many more nights, weeks, months, wondering if there is anything else they can do to make their dad choose them.
Posted By: Neak Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 05:33 PM
Dr. H recommends 2 years of PB for a reason, even though it is a kind of limbo. I don't think T2L will choose to go that long, but if she did, she would still be following the advice of an expert.

Her case is not substantially different than any others on here.

Having said that, I appreciated your above post, and understand your concerns.
Posted By: catperson Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 05:47 PM
neak, I agree about what's recommended. I guess my question is, would they still recommend it if a 10 year old boy has been distraught enough that he is unable to sleep alone? That is why I was recommending a darker Plan B, to accelerate WH's withdrawal, so that he'd be more inclined to see what he's missing. As it is, the only thing he's missing is seeing T2L. Not the family life.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 06:28 PM
Well, since people have asked what T2L could do differently.

Note:

A. I have 20 years experience evaluating "at risk" population. This is my honest opinion. No, I do not diagnose,I am not qualifed to do that. I just fill out forms, observe, and answer questions asked.

B. I am currently working on my PHD in Curriculum Development.

B. No, I never PB'ed. In my situation I did not need to.

A ten year old boy does not need to eat, SLEEP, play, be educated and worry about his family life all day with his mother, 24/7. He needs friends that he choses to make-- on his own (not put on a team by a coach).

He also could benefit by eating lunch with kids he likes, that like him. Kids that have worked out the social glitches, that is a huge part of "Carrer/Trade vocation skills."

We all know she loves her kids. Don't rip my face off for stating the obvious.

Her older, home schooled daughter is now looking into online courses. I'm sorry, but there is no such thing called "home school college". All 12th graders need to be taking the ACT now, she should be in an ACT prep class. Did she take the PLAN in Novermber? A lot of scholarships come from this pre test. Some people consider this a right of passage.

These kids are way too dragged into this PB, IMHO. No one wants to see the family reunited more then the kids- but they are too young to have "20 year marrital problems"

Oh what the he(). I will go ahead and say it. DD17 needs to go to campus and actually be a FROSH. Gain the Frosh "15", cramming for tests, cold pizza, no money- cute boys everywhere---Yahoo!
.....not wondering if WD can come into the garage at night.

Mind you, I do not like most home school programs. They are not held to the same standard as public school.

Beyond that, I am sympathetic to T2L's situation. She tries very, very hard to do the right thing. She listens to advice, and she asks good questions.

But I have wondered for quite a few weeks when there was going to be someone alerting her to the "other side" of this situation.

She seems obsessed with WH movements.
and this has been cheered on, myself included in part- by quite a few posters. Maybe we have done a dis service> sp?
As far as I know, PBers are supposed to be creating a better SELF- independant of WS.

The above is the biggest problem I have.

Yes, we are to be giving positive encouragement, but blindly defending someone is not helping.



Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 06:43 PM
Not everyone's lives run on your perception of "does not need to" and "needs to"

It's going to take some time for T2L AND her children to feel their way through this. There is no set timeline.

Judgement from the peanut gallery won't make it better or speed it up.

Encouragement, support, and guidance will help. Pointing fingers does not.

Her DD had a thread of her own and school was discussed at length. In the end, they get to decide their own lives.

ETA:

Quote
Yes, we are to be giving positive encouragement, but blindly defending someone is not helping.


So, "blind" defense is not okay, but blind accusations and judgement is?
Posted By: black_raven Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by silentlucidity
At a certain point, the delivery can cause some to turn a deaf ear to even the best advice.

A certain somebody comes to mind in the Foxy situation, who shall remain nameless

OK not nameless, it's BR!!!!


Some good advice can get lost when we are sensitive to our childrens' needs and feel like we need to DEFEND our choices.

There is no need to defend them, they are our choices. People here and just trying to give us the best TOOLS so we make the most informed choices.

The nameless poster...is that me? What did I say? dontknow
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 06:58 PM
Quote
So, "blind" defense is not okay, but blind accusations and judgement is?

That was my thought as well.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by silentlucidity
At a certain point, the delivery can cause some to turn a deaf ear to even the best advice.

A certain somebody comes to mind in the Foxy situation, who shall remain nameless

OK not nameless, it's BR!!!!


Some good advice can get lost when we are sensitive to our childrens' needs and feel like we need to DEFEND our choices.

There is no need to defend them, they are our choices. People here and just trying to give us the best TOOLS so we make the most informed choices.

The nameless poster...is that me? What did I say? dontknow

No, it wasn't you. smile It was a long time poster named bramblerose. Let's just say - we often ended crossways because I was OFTEN offended by HOW she said something.
Posted By: black_raven Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 07:04 PM
I couldn't think of any other poster with those initials and I know I'm not the most indirect person in the world. LOL blush

Posted By: barbiecat Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 07:08 PM
Yup.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 07:13 PM
Not my opinion, just the assesment standard.

This is a wierd post. Don't ask questions if you don't want to hear the answer.

Even if it is the truth.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 07:14 PM


I don't understand the attacks and it really pisses me off. It's one thing to offer a differing opinion but to keep hammering it ad nausem is not being helpful anymore.

Seriously. [/quote]


What, besides CP and one or two others, are you talking about?
There has been almost nothing discouraging said on that post until a few days ago. Do you know what ad nausem means?

--seriously.

Posted By: princessmeggy Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 07:32 PM
Quote
What, besides CP and one or two others, are you talking about? There has been almost nothing discouraging said on that post until a few days ago. Do you know what ad nausem means?

--seriously.

You're right, there has been almost nothing discouraging said until a few days ago and SINCE THEN, it has been discussed ad nauseam (correct spelling).

Here's the definition in case YOU didn't realize what it meant (emphasis mine).

Main Entry: ad nau·se·am
Pronunciation: \ad-ˈnȯ-zē-əm also -ˌam\
Function: adverb
Etymology: Latin
Date: 1647
: to a sickening or excessive degree

Seriously.

ETA: the start (and continued discussion of T2L's choices) of this thread is an example of how ridiculously far this has been taken.

Posted By: barbiecat Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Quote
What, besides CP and one or two others, are you talking about? There has been almost nothing discouraging said on that post until a few days ago. Do you know what ad nausem means?

--seriously.

You're right, there has been almost nothing discouraging said until a few days ago and SINCE THEN, it has been discussed ad nauseam (correct spelling).

Here's the definition in case YOU didn't realize what it meant (emphasis mine).

Main Entry: ad nau·se·am
Pronunciation: \ad-ˈnȯ-zē-əm also -ˌam\
Function: adverb
Etymology: Latin
Date: 1647
: to a sickening or excessive degree

Seriously.

ETA: the start (and continued discussion of T2L's choices) of this thread is an example of how ridiculously far this has been taken.

O.K. I'm lookng here for your point....
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 07:50 PM
Quote
O.K. I'm lookng here for your point....

Huh??? dontknow

ETA: nevermind. I'm done with this thread. I stand by everything I've said. I don't play games.
Posted By: wildhorses74 Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 08:19 PM
Quote
Not my opinion, just the assesment standard.

Because whomever is doing the assessment has actually MET the children and T2L, right? So we know that the "standard" assessment is applied, right? And we all know what "standard" is being referred to, right?


Quote
Don't ask questions if you don't want to hear the answer.

Who says I don't want to hear the answer?

Quote
Even if it is the truth.

Well, since now we know the "truth" we can all just sign off and the forum becomes unncessary. crazy

Sorry, Dr. H., the "truth" has been found. /sarcasm

grumble


Posted By: thndrnltng Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 09:13 PM
Oh, goody! Let's turn this into a fight on the merits, or lack thereof, of homeschool and homeschoolers. Not everyone is cut out to homeschool their children. Of course that's true. But it's also true that a LOT of teachers are WAY the heck not cut out for what they're doing either...and I say that as the daughter of two teachers and the wife of a former teacher.

Our four children were homeschooled. Neak is an accomplished musician on a variety of instruments, composes music, sings like a warbler, is the published author of 2 books, and a full-time mother and homeschool teacher herself (to name a few accomplishments). Neakbro graduated from Berkeley a few years back with a double major, primarily by scholarship, in physics and computer science. He's now a genius computer dweeb, designing some software wizardry that nobody has done before. (Don't ask me to explain it. I can't.) Flard graduated last summer from the University of Arizona with a Masters in biology. He was immediately hired, without an interview and solely on the basis of his undergraduate performance, as a professor in the biology department of the university where he got his B.S. Neaksis received, from the state of California, the blessing--at the age of 25 and while single--to adopt 3 children (10, 7, and 5) who had been molested and abused due to the neglect of their biological parents. She is so well-versed in the pathology and treatment of attachment disorder that I think should be able to get a degree simply on the basis of life experience! She also homeschools one of her children. Neakbro, Flard, and Neaksis play at least one musical instrument each--one plays 2, and one 3, and 2 of them are also vocalists.

Whatever mistakes I made as a mother--and they were legion--do I need to apologize for their homeschool training? Do I think they would've fared better if someone else had done the teaching? No, I do not. If they were any more accomplished, I'd be scared of them!! Education isn't like one-size-fits-all pantyhose, after all. If T2L is committed to teaching her kids at home, there is no reason why she can't do every bit as well, or better, than someone hired by the state.

tl
Posted By: thndrnltng Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 09:15 PM
Especially when the state in question is California! :RollieEyes:

tl
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by thndrnltng
Oh, goody! Let's turn this into a fight on the merits, or lack thereof, of homeschool and homeschoolers. Not everyone is cut out to homeschool their children. Of course that's true. But it's also true that a LOT of teachers are WAY the heck not cut out for what they're doing either...and I say that as the daughter of two teachers and the wife of a former teacher.

Our four children were homeschooled. Neak is an accomplished musician on a variety of instruments, composes music, sings like a warbler, is the published author of 2 books, and a full-time mother and homeschool teacher herself (to name a few accomplishments). Neakbro graduated from Berkeley a few years back with a double major, primarily by scholarship, in physics and computer science. He's now a genius computer dweeb, designing some software wizardry that nobody has done before. (Don't ask me to explain it. I can't.) Flard graduated last summer from the University of Arizona with a Masters in biology. He was immediately hired, without an interview and solely on the basis of his undergraduate performance, as a professor in the biology department of the university where he got his B.S. Neaksis received, from the state of California, the blessing--at the age of 25 and while single--to adopt 3 children (10, 7, and 5) who had been molested and abused due to the neglect of their biological parents. She is so well-versed in the pathology and treatment of attachment disorder that I think should be able to get a degree simply on the basis of life experience! She also homeschools one of her children. Neakbro, Flard, and Neaksis children play at least one musical instrument each--one plays 2, and one 3, and 2 of them are also vocalists.

Whatever mistakes I made as a mother--and they were legion--do I need to apologize for their homeschool training? Do I think they would've fared better if someone else had done the teaching? No, I do not. If they were any more accomplished, I'd be scared of them!! Education isn't like one-size-fits-all pantyhose, after all. If T2L is committed to teaching her kids at home, there is no reason why she can't do every bit as well, or better, than someone hired by the state.

tl



tl, thank you for your well said post. I was trying to formulate my own, but was so stinking angry I couldn't eloquently say what I wanted.


Posted By: sexymamabear Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by barbiecat
Well, since people have asked what T2L could do differently.

Note:

A. I have 20 years experience evaluating "at risk" population. This is my honest opinion. No, I do not diagnose,I am not qualifed to do that. I just fill out forms, observe, and answer questions asked.

B. I am currently working on my PHD in Curriculum Development.

B. No, I never PB'ed. In my situation I did not need to.

A ten year old boy does not need to eat, SLEEP, play, be educated and worry about his family life all day with his mother, 24/7. He needs friends that he choses to make-- on his own (not put on a team by a coach).

He also could benefit by eating lunch with kids he likes, that like him. Kids that have worked out the social glitches, that is a huge part of "Carrer/Trade vocation skills."

We all know she loves her kids. Don't rip my face off for stating the obvious.

Her older, home schooled daughter is now looking into online courses. I'm sorry, but there is no such thing called "home school college". All 12th graders need to be taking the ACT now, she should be in an ACT prep class. Did she take the PLAN in Novermber? A lot of scholarships come from this pre test. Some people consider this a right of passage.

These kids are way too dragged into this PB, IMHO. No one wants to see the family reunited more then the kids- but they are too young to have "20 year marrital problems"

Oh what the he(). I will go ahead and say it. DD17 needs to go to campus and actually be a FROSH. Gain the Frosh "15", cramming for tests, cold pizza, no money- cute boys everywhere---Yahoo!
.....not wondering if WD can come into the garage at night.

Mind you, I do not like most home school programs. They are not held to the same standard as public school.

Beyond that, I am sympathetic to T2L's situation. She tries very, very hard to do the right thing. She listens to advice, and she asks good questions.

But I have wondered for quite a few weeks when there was going to be someone alerting her to the "other side" of this situation.

She seems obsessed with WH movements.
and this has been cheered on, myself included in part- by quite a few posters. Maybe we have done a dis service> sp?
As far as I know, PBers are supposed to be creating a better SELF- independant of WS.

The above is the biggest problem I have.

Yes, we are to be giving positive encouragement, but blindly defending someone is not helping.




Oh great, another ****edit**** person. :RollieEyes:


Posted By: Maverick_mb Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 09:49 PM
Enough! This thread is dangerously close to being locked. Respectful disagreement is OK, personal attacks are NOT!

This is being said to MANY on this thread.

Thank you.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by mimi_here
Check out this post from Mortarman to me in MAY 2003

Quote
Mimi,

Let's look at the other side of this. It might be GOOD that you have these loose ends to tie up. Why do I say this? Let's look at this.

You are in Plan B now. He may think you are not serious, but may wonder what you are up to. look at my post with ALost Soul today. I think that Plan B is for getting you ready for either your husband's return or a new life without him. So...start getting on with your life. Start tying up the loose ends. do it on your own. Dont tell him...just do it. Start a new account at a new bank. Move your electronic payments to the new account. Anything that is his, begin to shut that down. tell him before hand in an email or letter. "H, I have made the car payment on your car this month. That account is now being closed. You will need to find other arrangements for next month for payment of your car. Mimi."

Begin to start separating things Now, what will this do? several things actually. As you know, this is not a game. But there are rules. You are in Plan B and finally getting on with your life. If your husband is never going to return, it is time you start getting things ready for your new life. If he is, it is time you stop enabling him. I started doing this to my wife when I got in Plan B. I shut off the car insurance on our cars, and got new insurance just on my car. She was forced to go get her own insurance.

Now, besides the pain of having to do all ofthis to them, what else will be done here? They will begin to see that you are moving on with your life. You are serious about NC. You are serious about moving forward. This will force them off the fence. If he still loves you, he will begin to panic that he is losing you. He wont hear from you because you are in Plan B. He will only see your actions. And they will be slowly turning out the lights on the marriage. If it is still in him, he will come looking for you before it is too late.

So, I see these loose ends as good. Take your time. Begin to shut things down a little every week. As each tie is broken, you will begin to feel stronger. If he comes back, you will feel more in control of yourself in the reconciliation. If he doesnt, then Plan B will lead you to the eventuality of no love for him...and then you can begin your new life.

I still bet that your hubby will be like my wife. When Plan B is fully NC, and he sees you beginning to turn out the lights, I believe it will cause the fog to begin to dissipate. tne we will see what kind of man he is.

Thanks for posting this gem from Mortarman Mimi, it's a good one for sure.

I especially like the gentleness and patience with which he expresses his guidance toward you ....

Here is my favorite part:

So, I see these loose ends as good. Take your time. Begin to shut things down a little every week. As each tie is broken, you will begin to feel stronger. If he comes back, you will feel more in control of yourself in the reconciliation. If he doesnt, then Plan B will lead you to the eventuality of no love for him...and then you can begin your new life.


again, thank you

Posted By: Pepperband Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by thndrnltng
Oh, goody! Let's turn this into a fight on the merits, or lack thereof, of homeschool and homeschoolers. Not everyone is cut out to homeschool their children. Of course that's true. But it's also true that a LOT of teachers are WAY the heck not cut out for what they're doing either...and I say that as the daughter of two teachers and the wife of a former teacher.

Our four children were homeschooled. Neak is an accomplished musician on a variety of instruments, composes music, sings like a warbler, is the published author of 2 books, and a full-time mother and homeschool teacher herself (to name a few accomplishments). Neakbro graduated from Berkeley a few years back with a double major, primarily by scholarship, in physics and computer science. He's now a genius computer dweeb, designing some software wizardry that nobody has done before. (Don't ask me to explain it. I can't.) Flard graduated last summer from the University of Arizona with a Masters in biology. He was immediately hired, without an interview and solely on the basis of his undergraduate performance, as a professor in the biology department of the university where he got his B.S. Neaksis received, from the state of California, the blessing--at the age of 25 and while single--to adopt 3 children (10, 7, and 5) who had been molested and abused due to the neglect of their biological parents. She is so well-versed in the pathology and treatment of attachment disorder that I think should be able to get a degree simply on the basis of life experience! She also homeschools one of her children. Neakbro, Flard, and Neaksis children play at least one musical instrument each--one plays 2, and one 3, and 2 of them are also vocalists.

Whatever mistakes I made as a mother--and they were legion--do I need to apologize for their homeschool training? Do I think they would've fared better if someone else had done the teaching? No, I do not. If they were any more accomplished, I'd be scared of them!! Education isn't like one-size-fits-all pantyhose, after all. If T2L is committed to teaching her kids at home, there is no reason why she can't do every bit as well, or better, than someone hired by the state.

tl

The home schooled Neak sent me this earlier today:


There once was a Pep with a colon.
At first, she was worried 'twas stolen.
Then the doc took a peek,
Into her mystique,
And found it there, loopin' and rollin'.



It cheered me up !

You done good TL, real good. kiss
Posted By: thndrnltng Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 10:22 PM
Quote
You done good TL, real good.


Thank you, Pep. And so is T2L doing, regardless of glitches (or not) in her Plan B. smile

tl
Posted By: Pepperband Re: CATPERSON - 02/10/09 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by thndrnltng
Thank you, Pep. And so is T2L doing, regardless of glitches (or not) in her Plan B. smile

tl

Hunny, I've had so many glitches in my own plans in life - I might be doing it on purpose to amuse God.

or not >snicker<

PS I *heart* Propofol
Posted By: mimi_here Re: CATPERSON - 02/11/09 12:55 AM
Quote
I especially like the gentleness and patience with which he expresses his guidance toward you ....

Yep..but he was often HARD on ME, too..I needed it or else I woulda totally messed up PLAN B...

Who knows what I did right in the very middle of PLAN B??? blush

Posted By: Pepperband Re: CATPERSON - 02/11/09 01:04 AM
If MM ever implied you were a bad mother for allowing your sons to see their Dad, I'd like to see that post.


And your response
LOL

Stay sweet Mimi, it looks fabulous on you!
Posted By: mimi_here Re: CATPERSON - 02/11/09 01:34 AM
Quote
If MM ever implied you were a bad mother for allowing your sons to see their Dad, I'd like to see that post.


And your response
LOL

Yep..you know me..dontcha...

I've steered away from THAT PART of the discussion on purpose...

Yours in FABULOSITY!!

flirt
Posted By: Neak Re: CATPERSON - 02/11/09 04:58 AM
rotflmao What a lot I've missed today. Pep, if any little limerick of mine could cheer you, then I'm so glad! With all the encouragement, I may even start working my way through your anatomy. :MrEEk: faint

Two miniscule corrections to Mom's litany of our blush accomplishments blush : I am author of 2 and a HALF books, not just two. Neaksis is the author of the other half, and has top billing, to boot. So there are actually two published authors in the family.

grin

kiss Neaksis kiss
Posted By: Neak Re: CATPERSON - 02/11/09 05:01 AM
There once was a Pep with pink gums...
Whilst rubbing them with both her thumbs,
She found a large beef,
Twixt two of her teef,
And wisht it had only been crumbs.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: CATPERSON - 02/11/09 02:37 PM
Teacher are the most underpaind, under respected hard working people in this country.

I don't care what you think about my opinion, Mat'r o fact, I wuz axed fer it.
But..

Do not disrespect the people who give their free time, money, talents and education, above and beyond the call of duty-
as a product of and married to school staff, I thought you would be more attune to this. wow.

Do I think certian people have a gift and with magic meet all thier children's needs at home? Yup. Can most people? Quick ans: no.

Posted By: Neak Re: CATPERSON - 02/11/09 03:23 PM
Pardon, ma'am - your prejudice is showing.

Anyhoo, do y'all KNOW how many things rhyme with "toes"? grin
Posted By: Neak Re: CATPERSON - 02/11/09 03:24 PM
PS I guess Mom must have been one of those certian magic people.
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