Hi everyone-
Just another question i want to hear everyone's take on. this has been ruminating around in my head for over a year.

as a BS, it would be SO helpful to my healing - if any (of the 12) OW in my H's life, would APOLOGIZE to me. it would mean to me that they saw and recognize the hurt they caused to me.

Out of the 12 OW, only 4 were women who i didnt know. and one was a very close "friend" (HAHA) , one was my daughter's best friend's mother so we were constantly together, one was my H's secretary who called me constantly, one was a "friend" i talked to once in a while... and on and on.

but i just thought how easy it would be for them to apologize. even if they didnt want to TALK to me- they could e mail me or even write a snail mail letter.

it would mean ALOT. it would restore my faith in humanity. it would help me to forgive them.

so- my question to my H, is that i wonder why he has no interest in apologizing to the H of his OW? there really is only one man he could apologize to- the rest are divorced- (two were his "friends" also - who have since divorced and would kill him if they knew).

so there is this one H, who i called after he confessed and told about his wife having an affair with my H- because he didnt know. we had a few lengthy conversations for about a month and hten stopped talking. he was a nice guy who was depressed about his marriage and couldnt understand why. they were in MC and it wasnt working. sounds like my life!

his wife was too busy calling my H everyday to say she loved him and buying him expensive gifts. they lived out of state, and he only saw her on their professional conferences, but spoke daily.

anyway- back to my question- so i put my H in the place of hte OW who havent apologized to me and ask him if he has ever thought of doing it... and he says no.

he says WHY? i explain how i feel. then he says and does nothing.

i dont know if i am realistic or not in this expectation... but i would respect my H so much for doing this.

it would show me that he has empathy for hte man he hurt- that he has COURAGE, that he has INTEGRITY.

this is really part of step #8 - in all the 12 step programs - "making amends". i was in overeaters anonymous for awhile.

WHAT'S THE CONSENSUS OUT THERE?? ANYONE FEEL LIKE ME??? AGREE OR DISAGREE???

SF

I think it is important to respect one's spouse.

I required that apology the same week of D day.

It appears that your H disagrees with "making amends".

So, here you are, at an important crucible in your marriage.

It is a dilemma your H does not want to face.

His choices:

1. Make amends

2. Lose his wife's respect

Your choices:

1. Make this a boundary (do this or we are separating)

2. Let this go completely (and never mention it again)

This is the crucible in your marriage:

The obvious solution to such an important marriage crucible is to POJA a mutually enthusiastic solution.

Call the Harleys. Make THAT your boundary.

Sunflower55,

I am a FOW who did apologize to my FOM's DW. Many will say OW only apologize to ease their guilt, but that is not why I did it. I knew I couldn't erase what I did, but I wanted her to know how sincerely sorry I was for hurting her like I did.

I knew her and believe it was the right thing to do.

When I first apologized to her she said she was not able to accept it. I completely understood. Many months later I received a note in the mail from her accepting my apology.

LC

Apologies are an interesting part of human nature.

When a person apologizes, they can do it for many reasons:

1. Someone is making them do it, in which case it is meaningless.

2. Someone expects it, and so the apologizer somehow feels obligated, so it is meaningless.

3. They have come to realize their own behavior was inexcusable, and feel the personal need to make amends - and in this case it is for an honorable purpose and therefore has meaning. One might make the argument that the apology is somewhat selfish in nature in that it is for the healing of the person doing the apology as much as it is for the healing of the offended party. This has somewhat of a chance of being accepted, but still can be seen by the offended party as selfish, because they can read in the apologizer that there is that selfish vein of self-need and self-healing in it.

4. They have come to the realization that their own behavior was inexcusable and they feel absolutely compelled to heal the person they have harmed. They have also realized that they have no true way to make amends, but their words of apology can make at least some form of inroad toward that offended party's healing, at least so that the person knows the offender takes the blame completely and is now set on a path of self-correction. This is the most "true" apology, and when heard is most likely to be accepted.


Of course, there are other apology areas I haven't covered - many other reasons for delivery. Just some high points here that come to mind in this situation.

Sunflower, which jumps out at you as your husband's right now?


And how will OW's H respond?


Your husband SHOULD apologize, absolutely. I agree 100%.

And that apology should have substance, and be meaningful. But it should never be one of those apologies that mimic the playground apology where the teacher makes one kid apologize to another kid - it doesn't mean anything, and they end up fighting after school is out anyway.

Your husband has to mean it - because otherwise it will mean nothing to the recipient. And somewhere down the line? You will get an apology from one of the OW, watch and see.


SB

H and I recently finished a few months of weekly MC for some marriage maintenance.
The C had us take a questionnaire individually, and one of the Q's was about apologizing. When I can find it, I'll post it. (H has it, I asked him to find it in his office, so, when he has the time)

I was surprised that H and I answered that Q differently!

Recognizing our differences of opinion about apologizing taught me a lot.

What seemed - to me -
to be THE one completely LOGICAL answer was not completely logical to H.

Interesting to say the least !!!

Men and women do have differing expectations regarding apologies.

And different approaches to doing this.

Sometimes, for men, the less said the better.

SB

LOL

so true

Hi pep-
i read your response with my H. it makes so much sense- but he is obviously not at the place yet, where his apology is at number 4 - what schoolbus said about apologies.

i guess if i knew that one of the OW apologized to me because they were being forced to - or for their own feelings- it would mean far less to me. how about you??

we will discuss with this issue with the harleys. we will be at the seminar in march. i'm not sure we can afford another phone session now.

also - another deep concern - about his friends who are now divorced from their wives... do they need to know?? i am sure they would become violent with him and possibly do something to harm our family. they are not the greatest quality of people.


i think it is more that i want to see his moral quality evolve to that place where HE feels the need to apologize to these people.

Your WH had twelve OW. That being said in the past here when there was the usual one or two OW that the BW should expose the OWH even if the affair was over.

Poster's would give many reasns why this exposure was needed and that the OWH deserved the truth. That deserving the truth was reason enough to tell the OWH.

I have always agreed that the OWH or OMW should be exposed by the BS.

So start exposing. Your WH has not had to face the full consequences for his actions. Neither has his twelve OW's.

These twelve men deserve the truth whether they wound up divorced or not.

These twelve men deserve the truth more then an apology from your WH. Their is a good chance that most of them will never want an apology from your WH.

How many times a BS lament's that they knew but no one would tell me.

Exposure is the only thing that will make things right.

How many times a BS has writen here that even though the affair had been over five, ten, fifteen years ago but this marriage never got back on track because the affair was kept secret. Where it just ate away at the marriage.

the road-
while part of me agrees with you that EVERY single woman should have her cheating exposed to their former spouses or present spouses - here's the stats of the women and why i decided to only expose to two BHs.

most of the OW were single. 6 of the women were married at the time of the affairs. of those 6 - four are still married to the same man. Two of those four i exposed to- one in person and the one who lives in another state - by phone. i had to spend many hours to find his home and cell phone, but i did.

the 2 others who are still married, worked for my H, and he is afraid that if we expose to their spouses, the women may file sexual harassment cases which could affect us monetarily.

the other 2 - they both live in our small community and are now divorced from their wives. they were both "friends" with us as couples and with my H. not only would they become violent - they would make my children's lives very uncomfortable. my 11 year old DD does not know and is at a very critical phase of her development- and i dont want her to suffer any more than she has already.

so - for all these reasons - i only exposed those 2. i can live with my decision.
when and if things change - i will definitley expose to the other 4.

also - i thought that the Harleys only really pushed for full exposure when the affair was ongoing... to spoil it and bring it to the light of day. what would be my purpose now to expose to these men? it kind of seems like i am cutting off my nose to spite my face- i'm just hurting myself more than i am gaining.

sf

lifeschoice-
THANK YOU- THANK YOU - THANK YOU!!!

there is ONE WS out there who understands the pain that they caused - not only to their BS, but to the OP's BS.

i am sure that since you have reached this level of empathy for us BSs, you are a different person than you were when you were a WS.

even the way you acknowledged the BS NOT to accept your apology. you can not know how MUCH this would mean to me. it would help me move on...it would help me to start to believe in humanity again...
sf

TO THE ROAD AND LIFES CHOICE...
I AM SOOOO SORRY - THAT WAS ME - SUNFLOWER- i used another computer that my H was signed in on!! sorry.
sf55

SB-
once again you hit the nail on the head and made me see the reality of the situation.

how ridiculous that i would FORCE an apology - you're so right -it is exactly like the teacher in the playground. although - i have forced apologies between my kids and even if hte apology is insincere - it is better than nothing. at least the aggreived party knows that the perpetrator knows at some level that there was a wrong committed.

BUT - in this case - maybe what i am MOST upset about is THAT MY H HAS NOT EVOLVED TO THAT PLACE TO MAKE A NUMBER 4 APOLOGY AND THAT HE HAS NOT WORKED ON DOING THIS ON HIS OWN.

since he sees me talk about it - why doesnt he get it?? that he is the male equivalant of the OW in my life???

i think he is scared sh**less.

and i SOOOOO PRAY THAT YOU ARE RIGHT- that i will get an apology from one of the OW.

sf

Sun,

When it comes to apologies over the worst betrayal imagineable, they are meaningless and merely an attempt to punish the betrayer.

I did a reverse sort of thing with my W's Om. I made him call and apologize to my W for poisoning our M.

Course, it took a little coerscion on my part to may him see it that way, but heck, I'm not anywhere near perfect.

Anyhow it was pointless, because the betrayers in all of this know full well they are killing the BS' but simply don't care at the time. Same goes for your WH and all of his OW. They all knew what they were doing, and if it didn't stop them at the time, why would today or tomorrow make any difference?

It's a false hope to think OP has somehow had an epihany. In most cases they haven't. They just move on to the next prey. Nature of the beast.

Don't hang your R on this false hat rack. You will often get what you got the first time around, oblivion to your feelings.

All Blessings,
Jerry

thanks jerry.

yes - in a way , i know you're right. but i am still the eternal optimist at heart- and hope that someday these people will start to develop the qualities of empathy and kindness.

and i havent and wont - hang my hat and wait for their apology. its just that i put myself in their shoes and know what i would do- even though i was in the worst marriage possible, with constant verbal abuse, ignoring of me and the kids- i could never imagine cheating anyway.

i know harley says any person could if hte circumstances were right- but i know that i would have to divorce first before i would get involved with another man.

having the OM apologize to your wife? i dont get it.wasnt she a willing participant in the affair?

as a BS, we are the only parties who did not make a choice to be in the role was find ourselves in.

sf

FWH faced OWH a couple days post Dday. I think OWH thought FWH was going to hide from him but he took OWH's verbal lashing and apologized to him. I'm sure FWH's words sounded hollow to OWH...only sorry because you got caught kind of thing and can't say I blame him. I never brought up the subject to FWH but I'm glad he did face OWH because I would not have respected him for hiding. FWH wronged this man and owed him an apology whether it was accepted or not.

OW never had the balls to face me and apologize.

I completely disagree with your choice of word "punish".

When did asking someone to do the right thing become an attempt to punish?

sunflower

"so - for all these reasons - i only exposed those 2. i can live with my decision.
when and if things change - i will definitley expose to the other 4."

So when it suits you, you will be honest. These people deserve the truth. For those still married you are letting them live a lie. You know that for some having a cheating wife they will need to divorce, they won't want to recover. Your actions are forcing them to live a lie.

Then there are the marriages that even though the affair is over and done. They hidden affair just eats away and the relationship is bad because the lie being a wall between them. Their marriage just limps along because the truth is allowed to be buried.

"not only would they become violent - they would make my children's lives very uncomfortable"

How could they become violent. The law will not protect them. These BH know that it's one thing to claim they went crazy if they caught your WH with their WW's in bed. They can't do that now years after the fact.

Why would an adult harm an innocent child? They have no more motivation to hurt your kids as they would hurt you.

You want things to be made right. Well you can't selectively choose which ones you will be honest to and to hell with the other's.

Your WH was able to start this mess. Time for him to man up and finish what he started.

Your WH was brave enough to drop his pants with these OW.

Your WH had no problem being brave and bangimg these married women.

Your WH had no problem being brave having affairs with his friends wives. Banging them whenever and wherever he could.

What happened to your WH's his bravery?

Your WH was selfish then and he's still selfish now.

Sunflower-


I recently brought this very topic up with my H. I must say, I feel very much as you do. In our case, the OW and her H were close personal friends of ours. Well, to be honest, I was friends with the OW and our H's were mostly friends through our association.

Ive often thought how healing it would be for me for the OW to apologize to me for what she did to me . She never will of course.

Im aware of the fact that my wanting H to apologize to OWH is less than altruistic, of course. If my H apologizes, in my eyes, he becomes less like her. I could hold him in higher esteem than her. After all, they were both guilty of lying and generally sleazy behavior. Apologizing to the BS of OW would somehow set him above. Would I respect my H more? You bet I would. Because it is an incredibly difficult thing to do. Its opening yourself up to an admitedly deserved attack. It indicates some level of awareness of something other than yourself.



Unless my H gets to this place as mentioned above, his apologizing wont mean much. And Im not sure my H will ever get there. Its only been in the last 6-9 months where he is finally understanding what he did to me never mind to OW'H.

Oddly enough, my H has a GREAT deal of animosity towards OWH. My H claims this stems from OW's H coming to our house the day after d-day and standing in our driveway screaming at my H in full earshot of my children and the OW's H spewing out some horrible truths about my H's A that my H hadnt told me. I dont think it has ever occured to him that what OW's H did to my H, how my H felt attacked and humiliated was NOTHING compared to what my H did to OW's H.

And I gotta be honest, at least OW's H was upfront about it. He didnt lie and sneak around, they way H and OW did.

I respect that.

I would like to add the NC piece to this. When I apologized to FOM's DW they still lived in our neighborhood. I wonder how many AP's want to apologize but don't want to break NC.

What is more important to you, an apology or NC?

LC

black raven-
i give you H major kudos for facing the OW's H so soon after d-day. it says alot about his character- that he was brave- that he wanted to try to make restitution for his wrongs- and the he has integrity inside.

these are NONE of the things i say in my H. the only thing i can give him credit for is that he confessed. while i had heard suspicious phone calls and texts through the years- he had always LIED straight into my eyes and explained them away. how stupid and trusting was i!! and how much i wanted to believe these lies.

anyway- i had to give my H an ultimatum- that if he did not make NC calls in front of me by a certain date and time - i was kicking him out. and even though i gave him two weeks, he waited until the last day and the final hours. how can i respect him now???

and then i went in person to three of the OW who live in our town and confronted them with him. he came along- because i again gave him an ultimatum.

now- a year and a half later- i wonder who he still is inside..

you are very lucky that your H behaved in that way. it shows inner depth and character.

sf

pep-
i agree with you- doing the right thing for the right reason - can never be an attempt to punish. it is learning to live a life filled with honesty instead of lies.

it is knowing what the morally correct thing to do is- and my H does nto have that - yet - or maybe ever.

i will bring it up to the Harleys- for the final word on what to do- because now i am confused.

sf

road-
a very strong post- made me think.

my reasons for exposing the affairs to the other BSs- is it to help them make their relationships better???NO.

my reason for exposing....feeling empathy for the other BS?? NO- not for the two who were our friends because one of them was cheating on his wife with prostitues, and the other is a whiny kind of guy - who i never liked.

i know he deserves honesty- as do the two from his job. those two spouses i dont know at all.

i think the main reason is taht i want to see that my H has reached a new moral ground where he values honesty- where he will stop being a coward- where he will live his life with integrity.

hmm- maybe i should expose these 4 now.... i am thinking about it. i need professional advise- and will have a phone conference with the harleys or ask at the MB weekend in march.

what i mean about hurting my kids - NO- they wouldnt physically hurt them- but they would expose the affair probably to EVERYONE - and we live in a religious community - so my kids would be the kids of a pariah- .... i cant stand my kids suffering.

i do agree that my H is still selfish and still a COWARD- and i dont know how to respect a man who is those things and have a relationship wiht him- knowing that.

sf

justkim-
i am exactly on the same page with you here!

you put into words what i couldnt express- "he becomes less like her". this is it in a nutshell.

how do i reconcile living and working on a marriage who is of equal character to the OW who havent apologized to me??

the only difference here is that my H told me himself- the OW never told their spouses. so my H is on a better plane there.

but he is still in their category.

and he is exactly as you say - just learning how hurtful his behavior was to me - no less the the other BSs.

so how do i contemplate making a marriage with him??

is this something he will come to in time and i need patience - or is he just not on that level where he can have empathy and courage??

sf

LC-
the NC would not be an issue because two of the men are divorced from the OW- and one is remarried- so my H could easily contact them without seeing hte OW.

the other two from work would have to be on the phone- so maybe i would call first and then hand the phone to my H.

i dont know - but it seems moot now. he would not have a true apology anyway - so i will not push it.

just lose more respect for him by the day. and think about me exposing - but i want professional advise from the harleys about this before i do anything.

the harleys said full exposure when the affair was ongoing to help end it- but what if it is over for years????

sf

i just want to scream!!!!!!!!!!!

i discussed this issue again with my H, and he says that he has been thinking about apologizing to the OW's husbands and ALSO APOLOGIZING TO THE OW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IS HE CRAZY!!!!!!

I had to end hte conversation and come here -b/c i was about to have an AO.

so he still cares for hte OW's feelings???? he wants to break NC and APLOGIZE TO THEM??????????????????

why do i feel like we are rotating on different planets?? why cant he see what is wrong with him saying and thinking about apoligizing to the OW??? why cant he see waht hte difference is of him apologizing to the BSs???????

i feel like i am talking to a wall- there is no understanding of anything i say.

sf

There is no reason for WH to break NC with his harem of OW. They do not need an apology for banging your WH. There is no need or way to justify your WH to break NC with these women.

As to apologizing to the OWH's this can be done without breakng NC with the OW.

Why is WH wanting to break NC with these OW?

Is it because he wants to warn these OW that their BH's are about to be told about their cheating on them?

No need to provide warnings so these OW can start spining to do damage control. If they wanted to do damage control the should not of had sex with your WH. The damage control boat is long gone.

Well probably for at least 2 years after d-day, my FWW wanted to apologise to OM as well. She did apologise to OM'sW within a few weeks of her coming home but the apology to OM weighed on her mind for a long time (read YEARS)

OM himself did try to break NC to "apologise" about 6 months ago which resulted in legal action against him and my wife handled the situation very correctly then.

It's a dumb [censored] thing to do but them wanting to do it is understandable at some level IMO. Of course they must maintain NC with their former affair partner.

Sunflower

Whether or not it will come in time largely depends on your H. If he is truly remorseful ( and I will address that in a minute) then yes, it will come in time. It is likely that at the moment, he doesnt possess the required level of empathy and courage you speak of.

Now, true remorse. That is a difficult one for me. What does true remorse look like to you? I often think that most WS have a difficult time with empathy and remorse because fundamentally, the type of person who has an A in the first place is very self absorbed. Because this is a character trait, self absorbtion, it makes it awfully difficult to empathize with someone else's pain.

I know Dr Harley states that we could *all* have affairs, that we are *all* wired for it but I disagree. I could no more have an A than I could plot cold blooded murder. That doesnt mean I havent thought about doing either one. I have. But thinking about it and doing it are two different things.

You ask how you can reconcile these things? The truth is, I dont know. Im almost 3 years post d-day and I havent gotten to that place yet. Some days, I feel like I can rebuild and move forward. Life feels good. Other days, not so much and still others, I KNOW I cant.

I wish I had more positive things to say to you. The one thing I can say is that I understand.

JustKim,

Pre-A I could have said the exact same thing you did above. By nature I am not a self-absorbed person nor am I a selfish person yet there I was making a whole heck of a lot of poor choices in that direction.

Never in my wildest dreams did I EVER think I was capable of cheating on my H and I did.

LC

I agree, but isn't it possible the other BS is moving on with their life and doesn't want to hear from their SO's AP. I know my DH would not want to hear from my FOM at this stage in our lives. We have moved on and wouldn't want him invading our lives again.

Of course, there is no way of knowing the wishes of someone else.

Maybe I have it wrong, but I thought NC for life was a good rule to follow for all involved.

IMO, opening up a can of worms may not be a good idea especially if the A was many years ago. I would hope it wouldn't happen, but if my FOM contacted my DH at this stage in the game, I do fear where my mind would go even if the contact wasn't with me.

LC

LC

I understand what you are saying. However, I do think that for some people, its just not possible. I dunno, maybe Im naive. All I know is that, Pre A, I was just as unhappy as my H. I had plenty of opportunities to have an A and I didnt. Did I want to? You bet I did. I very much wanted to feel loved again, to be understood, and cared for. I wasnt getting that at all in my M. These other folks were VERY attractive to me in that they were offering that.

But, I didnt do it.

I agree with LC, if it has been years then leave it be. We're not too far down the recovery road in time but are in distance. My H wouldn't be bothered either way if FOM apologised, but for me I think it would stir things up - I'd wonder: Why now?, Is he just trying to make contact? Are they over it? All sorts.

It would feel like the FOM was trying to stir things up. I know the answer does relate to what it would do for WW (ie me) but like I said my H wouldn't be fussed, he said that he would ask Why? too.


BTW JustKim - My former English/ History teachers always commented on my amazing powers of empathy. I always thought that if I had a prob in my marriage I would sort it out, end the M if necessary before finding someone else. As LC said pre - A I would have said exactly the same thing as you. But somewhere along the way I made some bad choices too.

ST

JustKim,

I too had several opportunities to have an A throughout our marriage and didn't go there. IMO, with the right mix of circumstances I do believe it can happen to anyone.

LC

ST,

Besides what you said I would also imagine it would be an ego boost to the AP.

In my reply above I refrained from saying where my mind would go. No matter what his intent, I know exactly what I would think if my FOM contacted my DH.

LC

LC

Perhaps you are right. It may well be one of those things that you cant understand unless youve been there, much like the WS can never really understand the pain the BS has from an A unless they have been through it.

Dont get me wrong, its not like I feel that all WS's are lacking in character. Its more like I feel that someone who has an A is choosing to suspend their character


Its like the moral compass, values and decision making abilities go right out the window.

For some WS's however, it isnt a suspension of character as the same patterns continues post affair.


Can you elaborate on what you mean on how you would feel if FOM contacted your H? Im not really sure how I understand how that would be an ego boost

I too fear that if my H *did* apologize to the OWH, it would open contact back up. The OW has tried very very hard over the past 3 years to intigate contact. All is quiet at the moment and that is a good thing. Frankly, I think if my H *did* apologize to the OWH and didnt mention the OW at all, it would serve to send a very strong message of her irrelevance. And yes, likely hurt her.

Which is likely one of the things that I would hope to achieve, now that I think of it.

SF- Hope this isnt a T/J for you and is helpful

Ack.

FWH facing OWH did show me that somewhere in there was the man I once knew. H had to face him more than once. FWH did his fair share of delaying recovery, but his apology was a step in the right direction.

I have to agree with this to some extent. While I don't think FWH owed OW an apology I can understand him wanting to on some level. APs use each other. FWH used OW. He felt bad about it. Whether OW voluntarily signed up for it or not wasn't the point. I know if I used a person I'd feel like crap if I was remorseful about my actions.

Lucky for me, OW was vindictive and FWH got to see her without the rose colored glasses on. Now he doesn't feel he owes her squat. If any BW has a vindictive OW, you might be able to sit back and let the OW destroy any "good" image your BH had of her. Let him get :twobyfour: by OW.

Sunflower





I dont know how I missed this critical post of yours. Im sorry that I did.

What your H is failing to understand is that his apologizing has NOTHING to do with the OWH and most specifically, the OW. It has EVERYTHING to do with you. It is a way to help you heal, to regain some faith in your H's integrity. Him bringing the OW into this was a huge slap in the face to you . It is valuing HER feelings over yours which is something he did for a very long time.

Look, I will be honest. Your H has had multiple OW and a very long history of dishonesty. This behavior is deeply engrained in him. It is his way of being. Its likely that it will be a very long time before he does get it and then, only with a HUGE amount of hard work.

I would srongly suggest counseling with the Harley's. It wasnt until we started counseling that my H finally started to "get it"

Hang in there, my friend

The road-
when i finally calmed down and sat down with my H last night, i calmly told him how hurtful his thought and words were about even thinking about contacting hte OW and even caring about their feelings.

he explained his words by saying that he should apologize to everyone- the communtiy, blah, blah. this is just more of him feeling sorry for himself and overgeneralizing what i said.

we discussed how the whole community was not hurt by him- that ME and our children were the ONES hurt by him and hte other BSs.

i really dont understand why i even need to explain this - because it is as plain as day.
i really think the man is at a loss of how to be a human being, of how to think like one and just goes to that place - of - " i am a sleeze- i am disgusting- etc."

by the end of hte conversation - i think he realized how hurtful his comments were to me- apologized- which i told him - his apologies are hard for me to accept because tehre are so many- and i can move on today.

sf

big kahuna -
i in NO way get it - to me apologizing to the OW or OM means that the WS still CARES about the AP's feelings and this is AGAINST EPs.
one of my H's most important EPs is to NOT CARE ABOUT ANOTHER PERSON OF THE OPPOSITE SEX.

and how much more breaking of an EP to care about the OW's feelings??? to me - this means he doesnt see her as an equally culpable person who also hurt me deeply - especially the ones i knew.
it is just mean, unkind and caring in the wrong direction. the fact that it is even in his head - is frightening to me.

sf

Just kim-
i love your words!!! you sound like ME - these are the exact thoughts that i have running through my head.

I SOOOOO AGREE WITH YOU - there needs to be a lack of empathy and a large degree of self absorption to make any person have an affair to begin with .

they know that they are doing an extremely hurtful action to their spouse - whether they are in love wiht them at the time or not- and they decide to take care of their own feelings while hurting another person. it is an extremely selfish act!! I WILL HURT YOU TO MAKE MYSELF FEEL BETTER.

i also so agree with you that i would never have an affair and i disagree with harley on this one too. i was living in the same, loveless marriage that he was. i also had opportunities to have affairs during those years, but i never crossed the first boundary - so it could have never happened.

with men who seemed caring, loving, and admiring of me. who offered me conversation - something i STILL dont get much of from my H. one of this kind of man was in a class with me and asked me out for coffee after class. i wanted to go - but declined. i didnt take the FIRST STEP towards the affair because i knew it was not in my moral makeup to break my marital vows, i would not want to hurt my husband ( who was daily verbally abusing me) and i didnt want to risk breaking up our lousy marriage - mostly for hte kids.

so i said NO. this word is not in the WS's vocabulary when it comes to getting their needs met - getting admiration and ego boosting.

by their actions they say - "I DONT GIVE A SH** ABOUT ANYTHING EXCEPT MAKING MYSELF FEEL BETTER."

it is a much more animialistic behavior without higher reasoning abilities. but then... even some animals mate for life.

to stay in the marriage and get their needs met - they would have to WORK at it. and they dont want to work at anything. they just want people to give to them.
so that is why they cant get their need met INSIDE a marriage - it also involves risk taking - exposing your true self - something that my H would never want to do. he wanted to be on top of hte mountain and i would be at the bottom admiring him all day long.

nothing coming back to me- no interaction from the top of the mountain.

and i wanted a partner - someone who would climb off hte mountain- talk to me, get dirty in the ditch with me.

and you are 3 years post d-day and still not sure???

i dont know if i can stand being in this inbetween place that long.

we are going on the MB weekend in march. have you ever been on one?

yes - we did phone coaching with jennifer. next is the weekend.

thanks for understanding, sf

just kim -
what is a t/j?
sf

kim-
who did you counsel with of the harleys? we did two sessions with jennifer, dr. harley's daughter. she was great - she convinced me that my H was a willing participant and that i had nothing to lose by working on the marriage with him.

she really did NOT discuss the past- i had already e mailed her our whole story- and talks about how to change our marriage with meeing each other's ENs without LBs and EPs.

i know i already asked - but did you go on the weekend?

i think that my H is getting it- but it is just that he has sooooo far to go- (as you said)- and i am really running out of patience because of my dislike of him.

i feel that my whole marriage has been a lie-

but anyway - back to the question - i think i am looking for signs that my H has truly changed- has developed integrity and courage - and also as i repeated what you said - that he is different than the OW out there.

this will be a long recovery - and many times when he doesnt get it - i find myself asking me - WHY AM I DOING THIS??

he already threw me away the first tiem he had sex with someone else and then continued with so many for so many years.

i am an eternal optimist- even in the face of learning how some people can not be naturally good inside.

sf

Sunflower

T/J = thread jack. I hijacked your thread with my own rant.


Even this isnt real, if you think about it. Your H wanted to be on top of the mountain and you at the bottom admiring him for who you thought he was not for who he really was. He didnt show you that for a very long time and perhaps he still hasnt.

I think it is significant that, when you are telling your H of your pain, he invariably brings it back to him i.e "he is a bad person, a sleaze" etc... He is looking for sympathy and empathy that is rightfully yours!! Its about YOUR pain that HE caused you, not his selfish need for reassurance and to somehow have you make him feel better.

Im familiar with that dynamic. For all of our marraige, I was always the one that would put aside my own pain whenever my H would show his pain. I was just so grateful that he was showing me something . That gets old fast, I can tell you.

Yes, we have been to a MB weekend. It was very helpful. Im a bg believer in MB concepts and I know that I would not still be married if it wasnt for MB.

And yes, it will be 3 years the end of April. Im not exactly a poster child for MB recovery.

kim -
it wasnt a t/j at all- i really like reading everyone's thoughts on the subject - especially the WSs. i like hearing their persepctives.

you are right about him not showing me who he was, but i think he finally has. we talked about this and early on in our 31 year marriage - i realized that there was a piece in him missing as far as our marriage went- i realized that he wouldnt reveal himself to me.

so we went on Marriage Encounter - i dont know how old you are - but it was in the late 70s. we were only married 2 years and i already knew something was missing. i was only 23 at the time. most of hte couples were middle aged.
my H was angry at me the whole weekend- as he was sooooo out of his comfort zone and had no idea how to talk about his feelings.

but he told me after d-day - that he had no idea how to talk about his feelings - that he was afraid if i knew hte real him - i would leave him. he was the big macho guy with the muscles but inside he admits now, he was afraid of everything. and he wouldnt let me know.

only now - is there a chance for us to develop true intimacy - if i allow myself to trust him - if he can learn to converse and express his feelings- if he starts to learn how to empathize.

many, many IFS.

also - i recognized immediately his manipulation of FEEL BAD FOR ME- I AM SO DISGUSTING. and i dont fall into it - i just tell him to stop over-generalizing and that he is missing hte point.

i was also always hte one to boost him up- to help him - to wash away the blues- our MC called me a St. Bernard- that i was always helping him.

now i have learned NOT TO.

i am hoping that the MB weekend will help along this path and make me see if i cna have a satisfying relationship with my H- and how long i need to wait to see if that will happen.

who did you counsel with?

why did you decide to stay in the marriage?
sf

Hi, Sunflower.

If I may, let me try to give just a little bit of perspective as the cheater on the whole apology to the OP.

When the FOM contacted me by text message to start NC out of the blue, I felt many things -- humiliation, disgust, guilt, shame, sadness, etc. Among them was also anger. Maybe not that very day, but shortly afterward and it has been one of the emotions that has held on the longest whenever I'm triggered in any way about him.

Why was I angry? And why do I still have flickers of it now? Because I held FOM responsible for the PA too. I mean, it takes two, right?

If FOM would not have approached me first and hadn't of told me he was attracted to me, I am confident to this day that nothing would have ever happened.

If the FOM would not have pursued me after I told him no a few times, nothing would have happened.

If he would not have encouraged me to meet him after we had already agreed it was our last meeting, the physical part would have never happened.

If he would not have begged me for sex, I would have never had sex with him and the PA would have never happened.

If he had of kept his promise to take all precautions to cover his tracks, his W would have never discovered it.

If he would have kept his promise to take care of me and never hurt me, I wouldn't be going through this pain...

Do you see where I'm going with this? Do you see all the "If he would haves..." in there? All of the blame I was trying to shift to him?

It's all ridiculous because it's my responsibility for this whole thing. There were many points along the way where I could have cut it off with FOM, but I was weak and I continually provided the opportunities that allowed him access to me. I know that.

Now turn it around. What if it was the FOM saying "If I would not have..." Is it possible your H is thinking this? Because I know I sure have. "If I would not have worn that dress." "If I would not have gone to dinner that night with just FOM and without the other friends." "If I would not have gone with him to the store." I found myself saying "How can it be FOM's fault when I made myself so available? I should apologize for being so selfish and thoughtless. He couldn't help himself." Ya right...

When I shared my desire for an apology from the FOM on my thread, I got run over by a mack truck filled with BSs who said I was a selfish, entitled, (fill-in-the-blank). And they were right. I'm only sharing it here because if your H is trying to play martyr, perhaps he feels a responsibility to apologize to everyone including the WW because maybe he feels that it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't of approached the WW -- even if she may have been sending all the invitations to do so. I don't know. I don't have any idea how it started and how it progressed. I'm just grasping here.

Of course he shouldn't reach out to WW. The only thing they owe each other now is complete NC forever. In other words, the only thing he owes her is nothing and the only thing she owes him is nothing.

BTW, for what it's worth... I apologized to the FOM's W in an email that I sent through my H. I don't know if it helped. Her only response back to my H was that she "appreciated it". And the FOM has apologized to my H by email. My H has not responded to it.

Sunflower

We counseled with Steve Harley, from May Sep 07 till May 08 weekly and then recently, a few more times. He is wonderful, Steve. Gave us a plan that we didnt always follow and then Id lament that we werent making progress. DUH.

We tend to follow it now, mostly and when we do, we are very very good.

Why did I decide to stay in the M? Thats a good question. Some days, Im not always sure that I have decided. On a good day, I think I decided because leaving wasnt a choice for me, I love my husband. On a bad day, I think I decided to stay in the marriage because Im committed to the commitment I made to my husband when we got married.

I think you will find the MB weekend wonderful. Dr Harley is an engaging speaker and he really knows his stuff. I post at a few other forums and those people there really stuggle. I try to suggest they come here, because in my opinion, MB has the greatest sucess rate of recovering an M post A.

JustKim,

Unlike your situation neither FOM or I have broken NC since we stopped working together in 2005. I think it was Aug that he left, but honestly I don't remember for sure what month is was.

If FOM called my DH to apologize this late in recovery I would feel annoyed he broke NC. My mind would go to something like "OMG, just leave us alone, we have moved on with our lives why don't you do the same." I also know I would snicker a little inside and this is where the ego boost would play in. I would feel like he was still hanging onto something and it would make me feel like he just can't get over the A. Of course, his intent could be completely different than what I would feel, but that is how I would feel.

Not sure if this clears it up for you or not because I know I'm not explaining it very well.

LC

looking 4 -
thanks so much for your perspective- and also for your changed attitude- it seems like you're doing great- accepting responsibility for your part of the A- and apologizing to the OM's wife.

i can tell you from a BS- it DID help. she said she appreciated it - thats alot of words to give back to someone who you really want to hate and blame for everything.

it would mean SOOOO much to me if just one of my H's ow would apologize - thats why i started this thread.

also - just as you blamed the OW for your affair- and didnt look at your self at first- that is EXACTLY how we BSs feel.

for the first 6-8 months, i could do nothing but HATE the OW. i lived ate and breathed my hatred for them. i wrote them long, disgusting letters, i went to see 3 of them in person the day i discovered, i was taken to court by one of them for harassment - when i had only sent her one letter; i exposed them to their friends, to key people who i knew would reject them; i lived, ate and breathed my hatred for them and the s*uts they were.

the reality was - it was just TOO PAINFUL FOR ME TO LOOK AT THE REAL PERSON WHO HAD BETRAYED ME- WHO HAD MADE A VOW TO ME AND BROKEN IT - and that person was my H. now i can see that i had redirected my anger at him towards them , because it was just too hard emotionally at the time to really look at the truth about him.

now - i know - he betrayed me the most - he is the one i was married to - not them.

my H was the biggest flirt around - he flirted with anything female -didnt matter if they were attractive or not. one of his APs was a 65 year old matronly woman! anyway - the way i look at it is - is flirting was like him testing hte waters - he flirted with everyone - and whoever responded to him - he started affairs with.

but i do know one other thing - all the OW WERE EQUALLY REPONSIBLE FOR THE AFFAIRS. no one is ever PUSHED into it. we all have the ability to say NO and to walk away.

My upset with the OW is that two of them were my good "friends" and quite a few more were people i knew quite well, who often called me and spoke to me.

one in particular, pretended to be my BF, and called me everyday to find out how my H and i were getting along. this one was the most hurful of hte OW. i feel so duped by her.

i was honest and told her everything about us - how he hurt me, how terrible our sex was, etc. she probably laughed as she had sex with him that very same day. she even had the audacity to call me up when she announced that she was getting divorced - (because she had found another married man to dump his wife) and told me that she had never cheated on her husband!!! this was after having an 8 year affair wtih my H, and my H told me she had had at least 5 affairs before him.

anyway- it is hard to believe for me - how low people can be. one OW was not married when she started the A with my H, got engaged and sent us an invitation to her wedding!!!

i could go on forever with other sick stories about hte OW- but bottom line - my H betrayed me , BUT the OW were equally responsible for having an affair with a married man - whether they were married or not.

my H never took off his wedding band and never told said to anyone- even when they asked him - the he would leave me. he was a sick disturbed man, who was not loyal to any of htem either.

i think when he was talking about apologizing to the OW- he was being overly dramatic - poor me - i hurt everyone- maybe part of him feels bad that he used them to as an ego boost. i dont know.

all i know is he described how many of the women came on to him initially . then when i asked him how he flirted with them - he realized that he was an equal participant.

this post is way too long.... just many thoughts going around in my head.

sf

LC-
i think the FWH apologizing to the OW's husband shows exactly the opposite! it shows that he is SO OVER the affair, that he even regrets hurting the H of his OW.

there would be no trying to contact the OW and if she answered, the FWH would hang up.

i think it shows how much the H has grown away from the affair and how much he regrets it.

sf

Sunflower ~

This is a really funny "notable post" of what happened when the OW called one of our regulars "to apologize" and "set the record straight"
Read without liquids in your mouth. :0

hi pep-
that was a good one- i guess sad but true that even when the OW called to apologize- as schoolbus said - it was for the wrong reasons.

sf

sf,

I just wanted to throw out there that the OW might read way more into it than there is. There are so many scenarios that could play out and the pros may not outweigh the cons. Each couple has to decide if it's worth the risk or not.

I hope after all this time, regardless of an apology, that FOM or his W don't think about either of us at all. We have moved on and hope they have too.

LC

kim-
wow - you must have spent a fortune to have weekly sessions for that long! thats why we decided to go on the weekend. maybe we'll need more sessions afterward but we are hoping that the ongoing support given by dr. harley and his staff will be enough...although i would like to try a session wiht steve.

i agree that if our marriage survives - it will only be because of MBs. this is hte best program out there.

you sound so much like me - would you care to share anything of your story?
sf

Sunflower

I agree. The post that Pep mentioned was clearly about someone who was interested in themselves and not the BS.

To me, a more accurate apology would go something like:

Thats it. Owning your own stuff.

I also agree that to me, the message it sends is that the OW is not even significant enough to mention. That it isnt "about her" that the WS is SO over the A that he recognizes just how WRONG and stupid it was.

LC, no disrespect intended but I find it very curious that you would still somehow interpret an apology to your H would somehow be about YOU. In that, the OM cant get over the AP or the A and is still hung up on it when it is about everything but the AP.

Sunflower

A fortune, yes but much less than the cost of a divorce, both emotional and financial.

I probably have a thread here somewhere and will try to dig it up. Its very old, Im sure so not sure how far back the search function goes these days.

My story isnt much different than anyone else here, Im afraid.

Its remarkable how alike these things are.

lc-
i am also moving on and am working to forgive the OW in my heart so as not to spoil my own life with bitterness, but i suggest a different take on it-

when someone injures another human being- and does not express remorse for that action - there is somehow a door still left open to the injury.

it takes a higher level of conscousness to forgive a person who has hurt another without an apology or acknowledgement of hte pain that hey caused. i am working to get to that higher plane - and i accept that the OW will most probably never apologize because they have not changed themselves and are not hte kind of people who empathize.

BUT- even if it were years later- i would welcome some kind of apology for the pain that they inflicted. it doesnt mean that i am living in the past- it means that i can somehow have more peace knowing that this persons sees and recognizes the pain and is willing to take responsibility for their own actions.

and it means that this person has moved soooo far past the point of cheating and lying- to a better place.

i can still dream for humanity.....

sf

kim=

yes- i read some of your beginning posts- and you're right- i felt exactly the same at so many points.

i admire your ability to totally get what i say- thanks for understanding when it seems like no live person in my world does.

sf

It wouldn't be the apology itself, it would be the contact that would get me.

For me I know it would be a fleeting thought with not much after thought, but nonetheless it would be a thought. For some it would be the start of a bad cycle of thinking patterns and could lead to trouble. I'm basing this on the addictive nature of A's, how it made me feel and how looooong I was in withdrawal.

Maybe it's different in my case because I did apologize. I would question why now after all this time? FOM certainly had the chance and he didn't bother, so why bother now? I've asked my DH in the past if it ever bothered him that he didn't get an apology and he said he no, he never expected one either.

I can understand BS's wanting an apology they most certainly deserve one. The big question is how to be OK with it if they don't ever get it.

LC

Sunflower

You are most welcome. I understand truly where you are at. As I said, Im not a poster child for MB recovery but I have been there so hopefully I can help somehow

LC - thanks for not getting defensive - I didnt want you to feel like it was a personal attack on you. You ask why after all this time? Well, I know in my own H's case, he would probably tell you it has taken this long for him to gain enough self awareness to know what it is that he did to another human being. I dont think he had the capacity to understand before. To his great credit, he does now.

Sunflower

I went back and hunted up some old posts of mine.

Its amazing to me reading these how far we've come and yet, how things are really the same as well

Thread around 1 year anniversary of dday :

One year anniversary of d-day angst

And here's my first post ever

sf,

I completely understand this, that was part of why I did apologize. After I ended the A I lurked on a board for betrayed spouses and with every post I read I could picture FOM's W. It was while I read on that board that I realized exactly what it was I did to her. I was mortified at who I became and how I could do to her what I did. When I apologized I hoped she knew it was sincere. I also never expected she would be able to accept my apology, but knew she deserved it regardless.

Of course because I had so much resentment toward my DH, while reading on the other board I never even considered he might actually care about the A and also be hurt. (yes I realize how sad that is).

I honestly never expected FOM's DW would send me a note in the mail offering forgiveness like she did. After I got her note I was torn for a few days because I wasn't sure if I should respond to her and acknowledge it or if I should just leave her alone. I decided to send a note back letting her know I received it and read it. I later learned she did appreciate getting my note.

I hope you can have what you want someday.

LC

JustKim,

I knew you weren't personally attacking me, your thoughts were valid.

I'm the type of person who it takes a while for me to move past something, but once I do I just want to leave it where it is. I'm sensing that may have a lot to do with why I feel I do. I would just want FOM to leave us alone. I sometimes forget not everyone is like I am.

I suppose if my DH was wanting an apology I may feel differently.

LC

lc-
so did the OM's wife send you a letter offering forgiveness BEFORE you apologized- or after you apologized????

how did you apologize- e mail, letter, phone, etc.??

sf

I apologized first. She sent the note a few months later.

I have the whole story posted here somewhere, but can't find it right now. I have to run out for a few minutes, will find it and post it here when I get back

If the darn search feature worked it would be so much easier to find stuff. Jeez Louise how the heck long are they going to take to fix it? Grrrrr.

LC

I finally found it. Here is what I posted on 1-13-08 on a different thread.

Why do so few OW ever apologize to the BW?



When going through my old posts I saw that you and I have discussed apologies before on a different thread than the one linked above.

LC

LC

I found this old thread that you posted very insightful.

This is particular haunts me:


This applies to Sunflower's situation as well as mine. In Sunflower's case, he H might not have bashed the BS of the OW but he did bring the OW into Sunflowers request for an apology and then blameshifted by making it about him and how "horrible" he was.

In my own case, MR JK did say that he believes he owes the OWH an apology which is progress because a year ago, he didnt feel that way. However, he went on to point out that the OWH is a deeply flawed person and not a nice one. When he said that, I felt all "icky" inside and couldnt figure out why, until now. Now I have words to go along with the feeling.

LC -
thanks for finding that old post. i couldnt find you posting to me before about apologies.

anyway - i thought it was BEAUTIFUL and very giving what the OM's BS wrote in her note to you. especially her "sincere well wishes for your continued healing". she seems like a wonderful person and i hope to get to that point of forgiveness towards the OW in my life.

the note that you wrote to her was also very beautiful. and if i had received a note like that - it would mean alot. especially your words that said - that you were sorry for your part in the pain that you were "selfishly a part of"; and "working on self forgiveness".

these two statements mean that you see your own part in the A- and accept it and want to change that part of you.

i must be honest with you though - i would NOT accept a verbal apology from my H from the OW. this was not really an apology on your part.

saying it YOURSELF would be an apology - but NOT through your H.
so i think that that the OM's wife is even greater that she DID consider it an apology - and wrote you such a beautiful note.

sf

Kim -
thanks for posting that - i had already read much of your story by looking at your old posts.

lucky for you - it was only one affair and not one lasting that long.

similar to me - the A was with you BF. my H's longest A was with my BF.

this is the hardest one to get over.

i dont get how SHE called me everyday...
i dont get how SHE came to my house for meals and parties..
i dont get how she visited my H in the hospital every day when he was in a coma....
i dont get how SHE asked me how sex was with my H
i dont get how SHE could pretend to be my friend- the list is endless - i could fill up ten more pages...

at least now she knows that my H thought nothing of her b/c he also had sex with her mother!!! i told her so in a note.

i need to learn to look at these women as SICK and BROKEN. that is the only way i can heal from the pain that the OW have given me - in addition to the pain my own H gave me.

i guess to have pain - i must accept it . i dont accept in anymore. life is too short. i want out of hte pain...

i want to stop filling my head wiht thinking of the ow and the A. i want to LIVE .....

sf

SF,


Sorry, it was on a different thread than the one I posted a link to. Here it is: Forgiving the OW



I agree. She is very religious and I'm sure relied quite a bit on her faith to get to the point she did. I have the utmost respect for her for being such a big person.


I understand. Part of the reason the apology came through my DH was because when I told my FOM I wanted to talk to her and apologize he told me to leave her alone. I honestly believed I was respecting her wishes. Hindsight I suspect he was doing damage control and didn't really want me to talk to her for fear I would reveal something he hadn't told her (that is a thread topic all in itself).

Prior to my DH confirming FOM's DW knew about the A he and I discussed it at length and he said when he talked to her he would tell her and was going to ask her if she would be open meeting with me. He said when she said she couldn't accept it he just let it slide.

LC (who desperately needs to get off the computer and clean the house)

SF,

I forgot I wanted to comment on this, too.


It took me a long time to understand about owning my part. I really believed it was my DH's fault. My other board buddies hung with me and pounded it my head. They stuck with me when I was foggy as foggy could be because I was still working with my FOM and helped me pick up the pieces when I fell head first over the deepend due to the stress of keeping the secret.

I definitely changed that part of me and work hard to make sure it never comes back.

LC

LC-
i had a good laugh about needing to get off hte computer and do something else! thats how i feel lately.
i come here to these boards so often - especially when i dont feel understood by my H- or he does something insensitive or hurtful or doesnt communicate well...

i think i need to start working on our communcation with him- but also his non-desire to apologize - or lack of doing it= he may desire it but doesnt do it- leads me to have less respect for him and i need to find somethings that i can respect him for.

LC- you seem to have made great strides in taking full responsibility for yoru own actions and for developing empathy for people.

i think you are the exception as far as WSs go.

sf

sunflower55

"but also his non-desire to apologize - or lack of doing it"

To me you are hung up on a non issue. Apologize, to whom, for what?

Apologize to the OW. For what they were just as much in the wrong as your WH to cheat on their spouses. Chances are if they didn't cheat and bang your WH they most likely would of found someone else to cheat on their BH's with. Most likely they did that any way in addition to your WH.

Apologize to the BH's.

What for?

What can your WH say to these BH's?

I sorry for all the BJ's, HJ's, the times I bent your WW over my desk, the time WW brought me into your house to bang her, the times I had your WW ride me like a cow girl in the new car you were paying for.

These BH's don't want to here your WH is sorry. Your WH can not undo violating their marriages.

As most WH's your probably did not use protection.

How does your WH undo his bodily fluids from going on and in these WW's?

The real issue is why don't you want to expose your WH?

Exposure is where the BW tells the OWH.

Why do you want the WS to do the BS's job?

Your playing your fiddle while Rome burns. You refuse to take action so these OWH's will no longer be denied the truth. You want a WS to do the BS's job.

These OWM never meant anything to your WH then and these OWM do not mean anything to your WH now.

It shows by his actions.

SF,


IMO, the WS's who really "get it" are the ones who take the time to read on message boards and learn from BS's. Reading people's first hand experiences made it all very real to me. I suspect that may also true for the other FWS who post here.

The other board I posted on prior to coming here was comprised mostly of women. When I came here I got a good look into my DH's mind because there are so many men here. My DH is not the type who wants to talk about anything, especially my A. I have learned very valuable information from the male perspective that has really helped up recover.

Does your DH read here? If not, maybe he should.

As for the apologies, The Road is right. Many AP's really don't care and may never see what they did as wrong. What can you do to accept you may never get the apology? Don't over focus on something you probably will never get. The only person you can control is yourself.

Here is a link to something I read a long time ago. It's not A related at all, it talks about letting go of hurt and anger. In the second paragraph they mention waiting for an apology.

Empowering caregivers

LC

I haven't read this whole thread, but I'd like to voice my opinion as a BS. I do not and never will want an appology from OW EVER. For her to contact me, under any circumstances, will just reopen wounds and will do more for her than me. I don't give a rat's a$$ how remorseful she may be. Her guilt is not my concern. The damage is done and there is no need for her to contact me for any reason because it will only result in more damage.

So I request that you do not ask your WS to contact the OWH - the BS to whom he was an OM. It is no different than asking him to take a knife and stab him in the back one more time. His intentions mean nothing to the BS at this point, nor does your WS's guilt or remorse or need for forgiveness. An A is not an accidental mistake that happened that he can feel bad for and good manners dictate that he should express remorse. That would be equating it to the kid who accidently hit the baseball through the neighbour's living room window. That is an accident, though a result of stupidity/carelessness for which the kid is expected to appologize and learn from. An A is malicious, premeditated assault on people's very souls. They cannot possibly be "sorry" because they knew the consequences going in.

Grr- I just had this very long post and lost it! I will try to recreate it again here.


I think what Sun is trying to say is that she would like her H to apologize to the OWH because if he does he will become better than the OW, whom Sun sees as despicable. He will show her that he is capable of empathy and acting unselfishly, something that is sorely lacking in a WS prior to an A and a mindset that is largely responsible for an A happening in the first place. If he does this, she can feel safer knowing that her H "gets it".

I think its significant that we BS's assign a proportionately large share of the blame and anger toward the AP. To do otherwise means we would have to face the inglorious truth about our own spouses. If we did that, how many of us would really want to recover our marriages?? These boards are filled with BH's who believe that their WW was somehow coerced, forced or even drugged into an A. Its filled with BW's who believe that the OW is a manipulative, evil ho who is just as predatory. The truth is, our spouses were just as culpable. They willingly betrayed, lied and hurt us.

Road, to your point, you are probably correct in that there is nothing that a WH/OM can say to a BH that will somehow make up for the betrayal. This really isnt about the OWH, however. Its about Sun's H redeeming himself slightly in HER EYES.

Tabby - Would you want your H to aplogize to the BH of the OW?

No. The OWH is a very decent man that suffered greatly at the hands of both OW and WstbxH. But I didn't recover my M so my answer to this is not from the same perspective. I sympathize with and have far more respect for OWH than the lyin' cheatin' POS that was once my husband.

Had we recovered - and this is just conjecture - I would be more concerned with how he felt towards ME than OWH. I think it would be important for me to know that he understood and felt remorse for the pain he caused to other people in addition to me - and this would include DS, my mom, his mom, all of our siblings, friends, employers and coworkers IN ADDITION to OWH, his DD and all of his connections. But I would also expect him to make peace with all of these people in a way that didn't cause any new pain.

Tabby

I certainly undersand your perspective. Me personally, I would want an apology from OW but that is because she was my friend.

You bring up an interesting point. Ive often thought that if my H was truly remorseful, he would apologize to my Mom, a friend of mine, and my kids for what he has put me through. I always had an idea in my head that if he did that, it would look like true remorse to me. Ive also thought that he would tell his adult daughter- she doesnt know to this day. None of my H's family does. My family is the only one that knows. I'll admit I have a hard time sometimes knowing that his family all thinks he is Batman. In my opinion, I think the real Batman is the BS

Im not holding my breath, though.

Hi JustKim, I can certainly understand how you may want an appology from the OW in your case. Being your friend, she betrayed you just as your WH did. Had WstbxH's OW been a friend of mine, I'd probably feel differently. I wouldn't hate her any less - perhaps more even. As it is, I see her as a horrible person that runs around ruining people's lives. I don't know her in any other capacity and I don't want to.

justkim

"Road, to your point, you are probably correct in that there is nothing that a WH/OM can say to a BH that will somehow make up for the betrayal. This really isnt about the OWH, however. Its about Sun's H redeeming himself slightly in HER EYES."

Why can't Sun do what a BS should do and that is expose?

I don't think you can trust Sun's WH to have any contact. Because at the start of this post th WH wanted to contact the OW as well.

What was the WH's motivation to speak with these OW.

Does he feel the need to still protect his lovers from the hail storm that is to follow his telling the their BH's afterward?

This is what his desire's show.

Why is Sun content to let these BH's live a life that is a lie?

When no one will tell them the truth.

The OW are still liars.

The WH is still being a sneak with a hidden agenda for he has no reason to break NC with his garden hoe's.

The WH still shows no remorse for what he has done to these twelve men. So the WH is still lying by omission.

Sun as the BW by not exposing is still lying by omission all these years after the fact. But Sun wants her WH to do what she refuses to do. What needs to be done. Expose.

Road

Maybe I missed something. I will go back and read the thread but I was under the impression that the A's were exposed.

hi kim and road-
not ALL the affairs were exposed. 6 of teh women were single- so no men to expose to. of the 6 married ones- my H and i together exposed to one H, and i called and exposed to anotehr one who lives out of state.
of hte remaining 4 - whose BSs were never told- two are now divorced - these were the ones with one being my "BF" and the other one being a very good "friend". my H was also "friends" with their Hs. so it is very touchy here. they were divorced before d-day. my uncomfortableness - one guy is a crazy kind of guy who would create all kinds of scenes that i really dont want my kids to see. WHY HAVE MY KIDS SUFFER MORE???

and i cant be sure about hte other man either- kind of weird. this is truly for protection of my KIDS- NOT my FWH!!!!

my DD 12- doesnt know- and i dont want to tell her about eht As at this critical time in her development. my 2 sons- age 20 - do know about some of the affairs - not all 12.

i just dont see the point with messing with their minds and cause them pain.

i did expose to EVERYONE in both of our families- parents, sibs, cousins, etc. and also to key friends that i knew - maybe about 4 in my community and a few at work.

the other 2 who are still married, are women who worked FOR my H. we aer afraid of legal harassment suits if we expose.

Road- i want to aske the Harleys if the advise exposing in these 4 cases befoer we do so. the affairs have been over for a year and a half. but what is the REASON THAT YOU THINK I SHOULD EXPOSE NOW?????

there is no affair to be stopped anymore - and my H made NC calls and letters to all.
i just dont see a reason to risk my kids happiness .... for what????

sf

road -
the reason my H talked about apologizing to the OW was his stupid way of manipulating me- saying - POOR ME- i should apologize to the entire world!!!

and why should i risk my kids happiness to let these BH's have the truth????
i dont really give a sh** about these BHs. i care much more about my own children and the life they need to live and helping them pick up the pieces from the chaos they have been through this past year and a half.

i want stability in their lives.

i am sure my H is protecting himself at this point - and is afraid to face any of hte BH, because he is overcome with guilt and self pity. this is sickening in itself.

kim has it exactly - the TOTAL REASON I WANT MY H TO APOLOGIZE IS SO I CAN SEE HIM ON A HIGHER LEVEL OF FUNCTIONING=- so i can believe that he is DIFFERENT than the OW- so i can see that he has devoloped empathy for other people - NOT JUST GUILT!!!!

sf

Sunflower

Well, this is a tough one. I think you and I will have divergent perspectives here.


If there are 2 OW who are married and work for your H, I would say you should expose. The BH of these women deserve to know as much as you deserved to know. Surely you would have wished someone had come forward and told you of your H's infidelities? It is simply the right thing to do.

As far as the other 2 BH who are divorced, you can expose to them and make sure your children are not impacted. The 12 yr old can go to her grandparents or a friends for the weekend and do it then. I would also say dont kid yourself if you think your 12 yr old doesnt know. I have a 12 yr old girl and she knows EVERYTHING that goes on in this house. I know this because she tells my mother who tells me. And believe me, my H and i NEVER argue when my children are home and are VERY affectionate in front of the kids. She just knows and its likely your daughter does as well. Exposing to her will just put a name to icky feelings she has about what is going on between mom and dad.

As far as sexual harrasment claims, that is certainly a possibility but one that is a consequence of your H's choices. It should be shouldered squarely by him. It is very cowardly of him to hide behind you and your children claiming he "doesnt want to damage them further". I think the person that your H really doesnt want to damage further is himself. Additionally, your H is already vulnerable to harassment suits if he send NC letters to these former subordinates so that cat is already out of the bag.

Can I ask why you are choosing to stay in your M if your husband has had 12 affairs that you know of? That is an awful lot to recover from.

kim-
you bring up some very good points-
the 2 ow WORKED for my H . my H was forced to leave this job and did have a sexual harassment suit from a different employee who he flirted with.

if my H were sued it would affect MY financial situation also - and i dont know if it is worth it.

i am sure my daughter knows that something is going on- and that my H and i are different. we are not affectionate but we are not yelling and screaming at each other as we were before d-day and also right after. i dont think she knows about hte affairs from the conversations i have had with her and there have been many because one affair was with her BF's mother- so my H and i have had to explain why she cant go to her house anymore. i wanted to tell her- but would only offer information that she asked for. she did NOT ask the particular questions that i expected and i think it was because she did now want to know.

the NC letters he sent were not to the ones he worked with- only to the other ones. we didnt want something in writing. he did speak to them with a NC message that i listened in on. the ones who were not there - he left messages on their voice mail.

i think that all this discussion is in a way going backwards for me.

the big question - WHY would i want to stay with this man??? i myself dont know and am struggling with the answer.

i truly believe that my H was a sick man - in many areas of his life. i think his number of affairs shows that he was not attached to any of them- just using them instead of cocaine.

and now i see HOPE- for a new life with him- and a new life for me.

why shouldnt i be the beneficiary of his positive changes???

sometimes i waffle when he behaves in any way similar - non-communicative, not accepting responsibility- then i think i should leave- but i am still on the fence.

my h has posted on this board - his name is rfwihd1.

i think i need to concentrate on MY marriage and MY kids and MY life. i want a professional opinion from the harles about how and if to expose to these 4 husbands.

sf

I don't know the details of your story, but it feels very wrong that the 2 workplace As weren't exposed and there are 2 clueless BHs out there. How long ago was this? There is a statue of limitations. And how do you know the BHs are psychos?

Sun

Not trying to beat you up, love. I understand you are very raw and seeking support.

I do see a long pattern of enabling going on in your M. I should know. Im guilty of it myself and it has not served me well.

If you are counseling with the Harley's you are in good hands. They will give you a plan that works for you.

I agree that your H has some serious issues he needs to overcome. Dont try to fix him though. Let him do the work this time.

hi kim-
ok- thanks so much for your honesty and your support.

i agree that i do have a long history of enabling- and part of
me struggles with exposing these last 4 - is tied into that. i'm not sure .... so counseling with the Harleys will hopefully help me to figure it out.

part of me WANTS to tell them- but there is also an unsure feeling that i have about it also. i need to address that feeling and find out why.

wiht the other two - i was certain that exposure was the right thing. maybe my unsuredness are the fears that my H put in my head- about his being sued and financial concerns with his work benefits.

i am not sure.....

sf

"and why should i risk my kids happiness to let these BH's have the truth????"

How can them living a lie be creating happiness for them.

Your WH went out and danced. Then and now your WH refuses to pay the band.

Your WH has injected a cancer into these marriages. This cancer has been eating at these marriages all these years.

The countless times that posters have come here and wrote that keeping these affairs secret only built invisible walls that even though the affairs ended. The lies of ommission from not coming clean have prevented any recovery from happening in these marriages.

Your WH has caused major damage to others. Not one BH, twelve BH's, their marriages, their children.

You refuse to make WH repair the damage. If you can't handle your WH losing his job then leave him. Your treating your WH as a meal ticket. How about all the financial damage WH's actions did to tweleve BH's.

You don't want to have justice done. If your WH lose's his job, you didn't lose it, the BH's didn't lose it. His actions with his penis did it.

Why should your WH not have to pay for his crimes?

What happend to a bad driver? A ticket.

What happens to a bank robber? Jail.

What happens to a killer? Death sentence, life without parole.

Your WH did his crime. Now he has to do his punishment.

So if your WH was a drunk driver, according to you for him to be held accountable, is going to hurt you then WH must be excused from being held accountable.

hi road-
did your expose your WW's affair to the OM? what happened in your situation???

your posts come off as very angry- are you angry at my question?? is it triggering something for you??

also - not all 12 were married - 6 were married. of those 6- i exposed two, two are now divorced and two are still married.

i care more about my own healing and well being than a BS's so i must protect myself.

and one of my ENs is financial security- so it is a big deal to me.
you have brought up some good points that i will ponder and consider-but can you bring them up in a non-hurtful way??

sf

Those that needed to know knew.

Six that were single, you can tell their parents that they raised a "such a wonderful child". Then you can ask if those OW learned it was ok to have affairs from the maternal or paternal side of their family.

Six that were married. Married, divorced, those BH's still deserve the truth.

"and one of my ENs is financial security- so it is a big deal to me."

Well if you knew that your WH's affairs have the possibility that they could see the light of day and WH could lose his job.

How could you stay married to a man that could lose his job because of his actions?

You put yourself in a risky financial position when your need for need money is huge. It's not these BH's that may force you into a smaller house, go from a Escalade to Small Chevy. It's your WH's actions that would cause these things.

Your WH had to have affairs. You having to live comfortable is the same as him. You want what you want. Without care to justice. Justice is not what is best for one person, or even one family.

So why is your family above being downsized due to forced job changes?

Why is your WH exempt from working a second job if he loses his cushy job?

Their are many people out there that did nothing wrong except to be born that have lost a high pay job and did nothing to deserve that they must work two jobs now.

Is your WH more privileged then these other people?

"you have brought up some good points that i will ponder and consider-but can you bring them up in a non-hurtful way??"

I don't hate you or your WH. I am probably to direct, intent
is not to be hurtful. I have been reading here for years. I have seen too often the damage of lying by commision and ommision. I have seen the damage done to BS's and OPS's when they were denied the truth. How the delaying of the truth only made matters worse. I've seen the pain when the BS has found out only after the WS has died and the BS can't get at the truth.

Lying is wrong.

Letting a lie stand is wrong.

Repair can not take place with lies. Healing can not happen.

Are you and your WH the only people that deserve the right to heal?

What about all of your WH's victims?