I'm feeling scared. I'm afraid that the excitement is over in my marriage and only after two years. Granted we've been together for 7. But its like he's so wrapped up in himself that he doesn't even know who I am any more. We go through these "dry spells" I guess you could call them every so often where its like I don't know what the hell is going on. I get the feeling that he's cheating on me, I get the feeling that he is no longer attracted to me, I even get the feeling he's no longer in love with me. He used to be so sweet and romantic and now he's cold and distant. We used to enjoy snuggling on the couch or just holding hands, now its just awkward. We used to kiss all the time, now I have to practically beg for a kiss. Well that might be a slight exaggeration, but only slight. I have wondered if I am not womanly enough, so I've tried to look nice wearing make-up and all for when he comes home from work. He doesn't notice anything, well if he does, he doesn't say anything. I know it sounds like I'm being needy, but I can't help it. I'm only 25, I'm a stay at home mom, and I have lots of anger issues, but mostly I just want to be happy. I don't know if I am sabotaging things myself, because I'm afraid of being too happy. I don't know what is going on, I just know that I love my husband, and I don't want to destroy my family.

I am a very emotional type person. I enjoy being comforted and cuddled and complimented. I need to be kissed and romanced, but I don't get any of that. At least I haven't in almost a year. My husband says that since I had my son I'm a completely different person. That he noticed my attitude and anger problems getting worse every year. I saw a counselor last year and before they moved offices my counselor told me that I had made so much progress that I no longer needed to come in. I know that I still have issues I won't deny that, but it seems that he's using my issues as excuses not to get close to me.

And that is the main problem. I'm gonna let you all comment on that before I add the rest.

Have a look at my answer to Bianca.

My generation has a lot to answer for.

You are very, very young. Your H is now a father and feels that responsibilty very heavily. Do you even know how he feels about being a father? It's a whole different ball game for him. He feels that he now has a family to look after and provide for. That's serious stuff for a young man.

I'm sure he'd love to kiss you and cuddle you, but you're now a MOM and he's not sure how mom's behave. Are mom's sexy? Do they want cuddles and affection and wild sex or do they want to just look after the baby?

Can you talk to him? You really need to ask him about how he feels about being a father. I bet he's scared and feels a huge responsibilty for you both. I bet he'd love to have more fun but he's afraid that the baby comes first and you don't want to have "fun" any more. It's all so serious and responsible being parents that "you and him" forget to exist.

You're looking in the wrong place GL. You're looking for the part of you that was young and free and didn't have a young baby to look after. Of course the man from your past, when you didn't have diapers and feedings and baby sick to deal with, is going to look like fun. It's your freedom and your carefree years that you're looking for. It's not the "man".

You need to reconnect with the real man who matters - your H. You married him, you didn't marry the old flame. He's the father of your child and he deserves to have a woman who is going to care about him.

Practically, you need to get out with your H. Get a sitter, dress up, go out, get sexy, don't wear panties and tell him half way through dinner that you're not wearing panties.. Play with him with your foot under the table. Have an A with HIM.

Y'know he probably sees his friends/co workers of the same age going out to bars and hooking up with different girls and I bet he feels the same as you do. "I'm young and I now have a family and I have to be serious and responsible. This is it - all our fun times are over."

You don't have to be serious and responsible (well, yes you do you are parents lol) but you can still have so much fun as a family now. You musn't forget you are a couple, not just parents. The answer is NOT to look back at your free times - it's to move forward as a united family.

Hi Goddess,

hey calm down after reading your post am breathless myself u seem to have tangled urself up in so many worries and tensions and i bet you don't have space for more than ur baby gives you

I can perfectly understand your dilema as am goign through it myself..i have been married for 1 1/2 year and have knowm my huby for 7 years and we have a 4 months old baby girl. in a way your husband is rigth because after kids we mothers do change a bit as our attention is diverted for example in the middle of a kiss when my baby cries i immediately pull away and go to her and thats somethign my hubby has also pointed out to me that my attention is diverted and men generally don't adjust with teh fact that we have a kid now with us they need to have our full attention the way it was before and at times it makes you feel as if you have 2 babies...there have been dry spells between us too at times i wonder the same thing that he is no longer interested in me or he has started objecting on everythign i do and he never seems to be happy with wtever i do...but fortunately our dry spells get wet pretty soon...

In your situation there is a communication gap between you too may be he is having some problem at his work place , may be he is missing you as much and wants you to give him a bit more attention (which is really hard i know )sit with him and talk it through and then make some effort to change the routines you are following once in a while go out to dinner or plan some outing with him leaving teh baby home or something just break this routine and the ice will break himself don't let it go ..

All the best.

mignonette, you know something. 4 month old babies suddenly become toddlers, then teenagers, then they get married like my DD.

Never, never, never forget that you and your H are the primary people in your family.

You and he will be there when the kids have gone off to college, or even when they're teenagers and their friends mean more than you do.

Yes, moms are distracted and put their babies first. It's natural and the way it's meant to be - but never forget that your H is as important as the baby. He's feeling just as insecure, just as responsible, just as tied. He needs to know that's he still means something to you - he wasn't just a sperm donor.

Kids grow up and leave home (some sooner rather than later ) and its going to be the H and W alone... together...

When my girls were babies I sonetimes neglected Flick. Now he is my number one focus. He's going to be the one thats there when I'm old and decrepit and dribbling into my soup

Th girls would just stick me into a home for the bewildered lol!

Posted on Bianca's thread so just posting here as well-

Bianca & Lacey, hi girls you are a bit older than me but only a few years, M is not easy is it and why didn't anyone tell me??? \:D

I've been M for around 12 months but only had my DH around for 2 periods over the 12 months - 10 days for the honeymoon and then from a few days before Xmas to Feb when he was deployed AGAIN.

Its so easy to loose focus on your M and wondering when or what if's is a natural trap. I am afraid I party a bit with the band I'm in while my H is away, not a great way to cope I guess, so I'm being pretty careful about where and when and with who, if girlfriends are not around its a no no. Because I could give out the wrong message even if nothing happened at all to my H. So I am working on that. Its a compensation thing.

Some of the stuff I found here is great for ensuring you keep a wonderful M. It is mostly so much common sense which when you read some situations on the forum here is not so common apparently.

Its can be as simple as not doing ANYTHING that you would not do in front of your H

Keep your mind and thoughts focused on YOUR M, its just so great to do something for him which he may not even know you have done or brings a smile to his face, simple things from buying his brand of cola or cooking food he likes. The opportunities are endless.

And you know what? It may sound strange but not expecting anything in return is actually some fun too. Now I am not saying your needs we speak about on MB should not be met but rather more mundane matters where I'll do this if you do that for me. Its giving with love.

Spend at the very least 15 hours ALONE with your H a week doing whatever TOGETHER, fun stuff, leave the bubs at mums or when they are asleep, set that time apart just for you two, an hour here or there is so important, man I treasure those times, because they have to last me for months and months.

NEVER NEVER allow another man to fill your love bank - read about what that is here on MB - by meeting your needs for conversation or listening or whatever they are. THAT'S what you get your H to do. HE needs to know you need those things. Even if he thinks its 'girlie stuff' yeah been there.
And also know that YOUR needs may change after a bubs or time whatever, your H also has to be aware of this.

YOU are both so lucky to find this place before you have to dig yourselves out of an affair and perhaps face a divorce. I found out about it from my mum who sadly did have an affair and it nearly broke her and our family. IT IS NOT FUN it stinking hurts.

If your M is getting you down or you are feeling left out maybe you should try to get your H to a MB weekend. Many very experienced posters here have been to them and say they are a Godsend. READ their stories please please before you even think about following your wandering thoughts.

It seems like I have this sign on my back at times which says 'guys come chat me up I'm feeling vulnerable' so the what if's are always going to be there, with old boyfriends and lovers to new sexy looking guys by the dozen. What you have to ask yourself is 'what is MOST important to me, my M and family or some player?" , because if they will cheat and play WITH you, they will do the same TO you.

I recommend you read the book His Needs Her Needs, its an eye opener, I also read I Promise You before I got M and did the work book as well. I'm not a very good MB person though, I always chose the option that said If you found out XXXX I'd cut off his ***** lol

So I'm not any where a great expert, you guys are way ahead of me in the M stakes. But listen to what MB can offer, get help if you need to. Cheaper than a divorce and even prolonged counselling after an affair, oh and remember affairs can be both 'emotional' affairs and 'physical' affairs and BOTH seem to have much the same fallout and destroy a M.

Hope you take MB up. Should teach it in schools.

GEt this book, Lacey: Fall in Love, Stay in Love. The problem is that you and your H are falling out of love because you have STOPPED meeting each others needs. He is not giving you the affection and admiration you need, and you are probably not meeting his top needs. Just think how much in love you were when you were dating? That is because you met each others top ENs.

The answer is to put your marriage FIRST. And that starts by understanding how to do that and by being HONEST with your H. So, my suggestion would be to get that book, come up with a plan and then TELL YOUR HUSBAND. It is important that you are HONEST with him about your feelings.

Let me expound on what I mean. If you start with the premise that FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS, you will see what has happened here. You have stopped doing the ACTIONS that caused you to fall in love in the first place. So the logical solution is to change your actions BACK TO what they were when you fell in love. FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS.

If you don't do the things that CAUSE excitement and feelings of love in your marriage, then you won't have those feelings.

Not understanding this dynamic is where many folks mess up. They follow feelings instead of making their feelings follow them to their benefit.

So, in order to make this happen, you must first find out both of your top emotional needs and stop lovebusters. You can take questionaires for both on this website, they are downloadable. Then it is REAL IMPORTANT that you spend 15 hours a week together meeting each others needs. That means finding a baby sitter and going out 1-2x a week. It is in your baby's best interest for her parents to have a great marriage.

You mean this?

This, is what is causing the following.


This is all justification for talking to your Ex.

Next it will be the old "I Love you but I'm not in Love with you"

Then it will be "I have not loved you for years"

You are about to have an affair and destroy your life.

Lacey:

His Needs, Her Needs.

Buy it NOW. It's available on this website.

It will explain where you are at.

Why your Husband "doesn't care about you"

Why HE has changed so much since the baby was born.

It wasn't him.

Recognize that your 50% of this marriage.

And you need to put in your 100%

LG

Hi,

What has he been doing that makes you think he is cheating? Is there an OW? Is she a coworker?

You need to snoop, snoop, snoop and find out what is going on, IMO.

Charlotte

First of all, I want to thank you all for replying. It is going to take me a little while to reply back to everyone. But I'll do my best.

As I'm reading this I am seeing that some of you think I haven't given it my all. That at the slightest sign of trouble I'm turning tail and running. That IS SO NOT TRUE! Ok granted the only good marriage example I had when I was a kid was my grandparents. So I don't have much to go on other than them, and I may not get what they had. But I love my husband. I am here because I love him, because I want to have something close to what my grandparents had. I do everything I can for my H. I cook for him, I clean for him, I take care of our son, I leave him alone when he wants to be alone, I do his laundry, I watch the stupid crap he makes me watch and with little or no lip. I laugh at his jokes, I give him massages when he's sore, I care about what he cares about and I show it. I do what I think is going to make him happy. I have put my needs aside for him for the majority of our relationship. I know he works hard for our family, so I don't have to work. And I appreciate that more than I can even express. I know some of you think I'm just being a whiny needy disrespectful whatever... But I don't think that I'm in the wrong of wanting a little attention from my husband. I can only take getting ignored so much. I have been there for my husband the entire time we've been together, for crying out loud I moved to this town 1,000 miles away from my family to be with him. Yes I remember the days when we were dating when I though life couldn't get any better. Those days are over, yes I realize. But I know that that feeling can come back. That's why I am here. I know that having a child changes everything. Despite how hard it is and how much of a pain it can be, I LOVE BEING A MOM! I love seeing my son playing, and he makes my heart melt every time he looks at me. Our son is a big part of our lives, but we know that we need our time too. But my husband would much rather spend that time on his own. I know that we need our time to ourselves too, but the together time we spend is spent watching tv or something like that. I have made suggestions, romantic ones, adult ones, everything I think he might enjoy, and he shoots me down every time. He'd rather sit on the couch and watch tv. I'm young I know that can be good and bad, but I feel like an old maid.

Yes I have on and off been talking to my ex, but only as friends. I am not having an affair, nor do I plan to. Actually my ex is giving me a male's perspective on the situation. He's giving me tips and ideas on how to spice things up. But nothing has happened between us nor will anything happen.

GL - tell your H how you FEEL, and WHY you feel the way you do. That may work a bit better that telling him or "suggesting" to him what you want him to do, or even worse, telling him what he's not doing.

You are talking to your ex? Does hubby know that you are telling your ex your marriage problems?

This is how most affairs start. We have seen this time and time again.

You are letting him meet an emotional need that your husband should meet. You are about to have an affair.

Stop now, before you nuke the lives of everyone you love.

I have done all that. I have told him that I love him and that I just want to make him happy. I have told him that I am lonely because he doesn't pay attention to me. I have told him that I feel like he ignores me and takes me for granted. I have talked till I was blue in the face, it never seemed to make much difference. I have changed my routines, I have changed my attitude, I have changed my wardrobe.


Yes, Charlotte, I think its a coworker. He works a lot of over time. At first I thought it was the girl that used to be my best friend, but now I don't know. I just know that he's not giving the attention to me. I love him so much and I'm so scared that he's changed his mind about me. I am still here for him and want to be forever, but I can't keep going in this downward spiral.

For those of you that have been telling me to cherish my marriage. You need to know that I do. But don't I deserve to be happy?

Not if it means cheating on your husband.

Cut off ALL contact with your ex, then work on your marriage for several months, continue to talk to your husband about your fealings.

But what you are curently doing will end up with you commeting adultry.

Lacey please stop talking to your EX right now. There is NO WAY you should be talking to him ESPECIALLY in regards to your M issues.

Just think how you would feel if your H spoke to a sexy ex girl friend on the same subjects you have been doling with your ex??? Wouldn't you feel hurt and betrayed??? I'd kill my H if he did that!!! well you know what I mean.

You are truly playing with fire.

You should be talking plainly to your H telling him how you feel and that you want him to engage in the M WITH you.

You really are in danger of moving your feelings from your H to the EX even if that is not your intention. I know how bad it gets wanting attention and when it doesn't happen for whatever reasons from your H its a temptation to let young guys flirt with you and talk with you. You are vulnerable and it may end up a big mess if you keep talking to him.
It seems to me reading Dr Harley's info here that so many affairs start when both parties don't seem to plan on it. They just allow it to happen as their feelings become intertwined. Its sort of scary you know.

M is definitely a huge challenge and yes you are young like me and thought it would be so not like it is right now, so did I, but remember if you don't let your H know how you feel and how important it is then how can he even try to work with you? You can be very gentle but still be blunt and plain with the problems.

I don't know about your H but mine is well let me say that professional soldiers are usually in touch with feelings I'm not sure I like much. Especially after a deployment. And he thinks all this stuff is a load of horse hockey (watching MASH reruns right now ). BUT he gets told very bluntly about how I feel and why. We do talk it over, WHEN HE'S HERE, and to give him my darling his due, he does try, sorta. If I can do that I'm sure you can too.

I know some men see their job as earning the $$$ doing the house repairs and yards, playing with bubs (I'm so envious of you !!), and that's about it. Well its not.
He also must work on the M every day just like you need to.

So what if your needs since your bubs came along have changed a bit and you want for instance hugs & cuddles and lots of them, I mean is it that hard for him to do that even if he doesn't understand it? He really only needs to know you need that cuddle and hug.

PLEASE PLEASE STOP talking to this ex right now. No goodbyes just STOP!!!!!!
Start talking to your H in very plain terms.

And if HIS attention has been taken with another well thats what MB is here for as well, MB can help you face and resolve that issue as well.

Just loose the ex and get advice here on working on your M.

Ok then, lets say I stop talking to my ex. He's been in and out of my life so much that wouldn't be a problem. He respects me and simply wants me to be happy. That is why he left the last time, because I didn't want him around. I have realized however that we keep getting pulled together for a reason, whether it is to balance each others lives or just to get an ego boost off of one another every now and then or what I don't really know. He was my first love and will in a way always be a part of my life, whether he is physically in it or not. But I have broken ties with him before and can easily do it again.

But then what? I can make sure that dinner is ready, the apt is clean, the baby is in bed and greet my husband wearing nothing but a pair of stilettos and I doubt it would make a bit of difference. I can completely forget about how I feel and immerse myself in my H and his needs, that's all I've done lately. But I think its about time he starts giving back. How can I explain to you people that I love my H and would do anything for him, as long as I don't lose myself in the process. I was raised to have a mind of my own and to be strong and independent. And I have lost a lot of that since I have been with my H. I am not cheating with the OM, simply taking his compliments and allowing myself to feel like a woman again. Between the OM and myself it is kind of like a game. We help each other build up the confidence that we need. Ok I would like to let my H have that job, believe me I would want nothing more than for my H to tell me he thinks I'm sexy or beautiful or even semi-pretty. But he doesn't, I have told him that I would like him too, he still has neglected to say anything. For our 2 year anniversary I was wearing a sexy dress when he came home from work, I felt foolish, because I don't like dresses. He was more concerned with the fact that his new laptop arrived the same day. He is very much into himself and everything that is important to him. I used to be one of those things, now I'm not even in the top 20. He is my no 2, because my son is #1 of course. But I do everything I can to take care of my H.

No I don't think he would like if he found out I was talking to my ex. But sometimes I wonder if he would even care, just because that's less he has to talk to me.

Don't talk about it, do it.

For the rest of your life!!
Commit yourself to the fact that you must never have any form of contact with this human for the rest of your life!!

Then you have a chance at fixing your marriage. Get yourself right, then we can work on your husband.

Then tell him, he deserves to know what you have been doing anyway.

Work on your marriage.

If your answer is that you've already done that, then (after you have ended contact with your ex for 3-6 months) tell your husband that your marriage is in trouble and if things continue the way they are, you are planning to get a legal separation and then a divorce. Set a time frame for that decision and then go about being the best wife you can be. If he doesn't come around then get a divorce.

I don't think anybody here is telling you to be miserable.

What they are saying is that while you are indulging in fanciful daydream fantasy with your ex, you have no credibility about the effort you are putting into your M or about the lack of effort your husband is making. And you are indulging in a fantasy. "Allowing yourself to feel like a woman again." You were raised to be strong and independent, yet need compliments from your ex to build your confidence?

People can post and post and go through all the details, but common sense tells you that you can't be flirting with your ex and fixing your M at the same time. Marriages don't get better with a third party around, they get worse. You knew that when you posted, you just don't want to deal with it. So would you rather us lie to you (more indulging in fantasy) or tell you the truth?

Its a shame. If what you are posting is the truth, you could so easily come out of this. But I fear that you would rather argue that we "don't understand", so you can indulge in a fantasy.

Well here's what I did with my H.
First I got rid of OM.

I sat DH down and told him exactly how I felt. How I felt neglected, alone. Gave specific examples of when I felt that way - like when you dressed to the nines and he was more excited about the laptop.

Then I told him I was developing feelings for someone else, and that I didn't want that person to be filling up my heart, I wanted DH to be the one I turned to and counted on. I told him I didn't like telling him that news, because it is painful, but that it was too important to ignore.

My H came around.

I suggest you try the open and *completely* honest approach with your H. If he wakes up, good. If not, you continue refrain from any sort of contact or communication with your ex-boyfriend. Get counseling with the Harleys via telephone if you can possibly afford it. Heck, when your H wants to know what you want for your birthday, anniversary, etc. tell him a session with the Harleys. Tell your parents (and your inlaws) that you're having a rough time and see if they'll help pay for the counseling.

Then, with ex-boyfriend still out of the picture, if counseling with the Harleys does not help, you get a job and move out. Tell your H you'll be interested in reconciliation when he's ready to put you first in his life.

Don't ever speak to ex-boyfriend as long as you are married.
It is emotional suicide.

If you think you can handle it, that it's not that big a deal,that we're over-reacting, just pause and ask yourself:
Why is it that EVERYONE who has experienced infidelity is telling you to avoid ex-boyfriend?
What possible reason could they have for telling you this?

I guarantee that every single one of us thought "I'm different. I can handle it. It's not that big a deal."

The girl that "used to be your best friend?" What happened there?

A lot of overtime? I don't like the sound of that. Do his paychecks reflect the overtime?

Charlotte

Bumpity-bumpity-bump

I decided to stop talking to my ex just because it was starting to confuse me about what I wanted.

Well again I talked to my H. I even made a video of what I was thinking so I didn't forget before he got home. He watched it and it upset him, but not for the reason you might think. I didn't say anything about my ex. I am not sure its the right time to indulge that information. But after he watched it he was very upset. I decided to wait to talk to him after I put our son to bed.
He asked me what I wanted him to say.

I told him anything, we used to talk all the time.

He said yeah and then I wasn't working 11 hr days.

I said I know you work long hours and that you work very hard and I love you for that. But I spend all day long with Jack and when you get home I'm tired too. I know that doesn't mean much to you, but it means something to me.

He asked me what I wanted from him.

I told him I just wanted a little appreciation, a little bit of conversation, a little adult interaction, a little romance.

He didn't have anything to say to that.

I told him that I'll give him some space to figure out what he wants. And that I'll wait for him as long as I can.

Then we ate dinner and after I put everything away I came into the bedroom and turned the tv on in here. Is this what you people thought would happen? To make me feel even worse? To make my marriage even scarier for me? To give me more reasons to cry?

Glad to hear that you stopped talking to OM. I hope you stick with it. If H wants to ignore your problems at some point you may have to discuss D with him. Maybe that conversation alone with be a wake up call for him. And use the word "divorce" not just figure out what you want...that's too vague. He needs to understand the gravity of how you are feeling and how that would impact his life and your son.

Whatever happens in your M don't seek comfort or ego boosts from other men. You're only looking for trouble there.

bump

thats a good thing you stopped talking to your ex coz agreed he was a getway a somebody who was there listening to you and sympathising but don't you think your husband should be the one doing that and understood he is not doing that at the moment but he has been everythign to you thats why u dumped ex and married him didn't you...

you know gap between husband and wife is created easily and it widens dangerously pretty quickly don't let that happen because both of youw ill drift away from each other..remember all teh good reasons you married hima nd don't look at the negative side all the time...first of all commit to yourself that you want to save this marriage...you might be feeling everybody here is only pushing you to do somethign and he is left alone but the thing is we have only you as the contact person in all this...

i would suggest you both set a time on a weekend leave the baby if you can somewhere and go at some quite place fopr a coupleof hours...don't talk about what you are feelign and wanting but ask him to say what he wants and ho he is feeling just listen to his side of story and don't talk in between stay calm ...once he has spoken it out you both can go about things one by one and then you can justifyu yourself and tell him all teh efforts you are putting up to save the day...this will give you a better view of the whole situationa s you will have his problems infront of you as well then it would be easy to work things out between you two...

All the best.

Lacey,

I'm not sure where to begin. I'll just go w/ a list, and apologize in advance if any of this seems overly harsh or "misunderstanding" of your situation.

*I'm a former wayward wife. I COMPLETELY fed myself the BS about "Am I really happy? What do I need to do to make myself happy?" to justify my affair. And believe me, it is BS when it's in the context of an OM.

*You DO have an OM, whether you admit it or not. You think you can handle it, that it won't get out of control? Look where you are now, look how you feel about your ex, and look how you feel about your husband. I know, I know, you're not planning on it, it will never happen, blah blah blah - do you know how many of us waywards here planned on committing adultery? Yeah, I'd say zero or very nearly so.

*You sound foggy already. Please realize that people here are trying to help you - because we have all been through it, on one side of the affair or the other, and IT SUCKS. It is the single WORST thing you could do to yourself, your husband, your son. Since I suspect you're foggy, you won't realize the complete disregard and disrespect you're displaying to those trying to help you, and you won't realize how dangerous the game you're playing is.

*Nothing is going to work unless you want it to. You have to decide, you have to make the change. You can't post here and say you tried, you can't speak to your ex and compile a litany of things wrong w/ your marriage, the countless times you've spoken w/ your H, etc., etc., etc. Until you are ready to stand up and be a person of character, of MORAL BACKBONE, someone who "gets it," this is all a waste. If you love your H and M the way you say you do (and you're sending very mixed messages on that), you need to know you've honestly tried everything, 110%, to make it work. Are you doing that now?

*If nothing else, think of your son. What kind of mother are you? What kind of mother lets other men into her marriage, what kind of mother plays w/ fire -- plays w/ not only her life, but her husband's and son's lives?? Do you realize how horribly you will destroy that little boy's life if you come anywhere near an affair??

There are a lot of other things to say, and I'm sorry if this all seems to be directed at you and the OM issue. However, please, consider the source (me, a former wayward): you don't just need to fix your marriage, you need to fix yourself. Know who you are, what you stand for, and put the commitment to that and your M above all else.

You are not alone in needing to uphold the M, certainly. And do whatever it takes to make your H "get it" -- keep talking until you're blue in the face, snoop to see if there is an A, BOTH of you read HNHN, SAA, anything by Dr. Harley.

If your H IS having an A, it will be difficult to get him to come around. If YOU have an A, (and I'm scared you're already too foggy to take any advice on prevention and "get it" right now), your situation will be a thousand times worse than it is now.

Too much to go into. Lacey, keep posting - people want to help you, but you need to GENUINELY want to help yourself and your M first.

Lacey it is very good that the ex boyfriend contact is dropped.. now don't contact him again or all the good work this will allow is down the drain.

Now 11 hr days is hard but a lot of men and women do that these days and still give a bit of affection and respond to needs. I don't see that as a good excuse at all.

OK what can you two do to address that. Ask him to set aside an hour after little Jack is asleep each night to talk or laugh or play (come on your allowed to you know ) together.

It may even be rubbing each others back or feet or whatever.. a bit of intimacy and showing care to each other.

Now your comment
That could work against you because you are assuming he feels that way. Perhaps it could be expressed in later discussions that "it appears you don't seem to care ............ etc." rather than a statement of fact because you don't know if he cares about this or not but it appears to you he doesn't. See the difference? You are expressing your feelings not making a disrespectful judgement.

I don't think you should give him as much time as you can wait at all. Let this sink in for a day or so and talk to him again. And then a few days later again .. not nagging every day but to let him know ITS SERIOUS!!!

Repeat that you want to love him and want him to show his love in return.... express again that you are not looking for a gold train but appreciation... affection ... time for the two of you only ... conversation - even about how hard a day he had - sharing in other words....

Take his hands in your when you talk to him ... don't put distance between you after all its about being together isn't it?

Don't retreat into the bedroom or wherever and turn the TV on .. what good does that do when you just said he did not spend time WITH you and YOU run off????? It far better for him to see how upset this is making you rather than hide it from him!!!!!

Time alone = time withdrawing from each other in these circumstances. Don't do it!!

If after you have tried all this and he is distant... well I would begin to snoop big time...but lets look at that bridge when or if it happens. He might surprise you and its just work pressure and stress. Lets not think the worst case yet.

Good luck Lacey

Bumping!

Where are you, Goddess? What's happening? We are worried about you!

Charlotte

I'm giving my husband another chance. I'm letting him try and make things better. We have had so many conversations about our relationship in just the last month alone, we've both grown tired of it. But I think he finally heard me. He's been very sweet this weekend, cooking for me, taking Jack outside to play so I could take a longer nap. He is trying and I am giving him every encouragement that I can. I want my marriage to last forever. Now that things are getting better I am wondering what happened. I'm wondering how long its gonna last, but I don't really care. I am just enjoying it and I'm working on it keep it this way.

You are taking the right first steps. Good for you! I would like to point out a couple areas where I think the Marriage Builders could help really help you & your H create the marriage you both want. I am not an expert (hence the post count) but I have been lurking here awhile and workin' the MB program IRL.

First, the Giver & the Taker. It concerns me that you talk about your self-sacrifice like it's a good thing. It's really not a good idea to give-give-give to the neglect of your own needs; doing so leads to feelings of resentment, and resentment breeds all sorts of nasty things like Love Busters and a sense of entitlement. (I hear that four out of five WW's recommend entitlement as the best justification for adultery.)

Emotional Needs have been discussed by others in this thread .... I would only add that top EN's differ from person to person, and our assumptions about what is important to our spouses can be very inaccurate. Consider that if Domestic Support does not rank high on your H's list of EN's, then your efforts in that area won't automatically get the "payoff" you'd like or expect. Likewise, he may just be deaf to your need for Affection, all the while stewing over the fact that you don't recognize the Financial Support he provides in the way that he would like. The ENQ on this site helps couples identify key needs, and the Harley books mentioned by other posters will help you two go about meeting these needs. Simply telling him "I need [fill in the blank]" may not be sufficient direction ... the MB materials can give a great road map to learning to meet EN's.

EN's tie into the core MB concept of the Love Bank, which represents the "net" balance of feelings of love within marriage. Meeting EN's makes deposits into the bank while committing Love Busters makes withdrawals; a high positive balance => feeling of being in love with depositor. Based on your posts I suspect that you're prone to the love buster Disrespectful Judgments, which can include things like making negative assumptions about the spouse's thoughts or intentions (he does thoughtless thing "x" because he takes me for granted, or worse), and presuming the worst about what s/he will do in a given situation (I can try all I want to fix this marriage but he can't change, he'll just blow it off). The more LB's you can eliminate, the stronger your marriage will be.

Also, I do "get" that you put your child first priority-wise and I doubt anyone here is going to convince you otherwise. I would ask you to consider how much good it will do your child to de-prioritize the marriage all the way into unhappiness or divorce. Pepperband's sig line sums that up wonderfully & Kiwi makes very good points about this too. It sounds like you two are in a critical stage to start rebuilding your M, so please don't shortchange those efforts.

Lastly ... it may well be that more of the blame rests with your H in the M getting to this state, but please consider your responsibility to turn things around. Your previous efforts, no matter how sincere, obviously didn't work 100% so could do with some fixin' too. That you tried very hard doesn't (IMO) entitle you to sit around and let your H do all the heavy lifting ... that thought makes me especially uncomfortable given that you've spent some weeks secretly stoking the embers of a past relationship. Most here would consider that an EA. It is at the least detrimental to the M, good on you for breaking that off but I suspect you'll come to realize it was more damaging than you knew.

Anyway ... it's time to get a plan & get movin'! I think you'll find this site to be a great resource for you. Just watch for the swinging 2x4's!!

I don't think that any one person should do the heavy lifting in a marriage. I think it should be equal on all parts. I am still providing my husband with as much comfort and affection as I can. I still get rejected, but its not as bad as it was before. I know that he's trying and I am trying as well. He had a 3 day weekend from work and he spent the majority of the time cooking for me. I am so glad that he finally heard me. We are getting to a better place. Thank you all for your kind words.

I know we are not through yet, but right now we are taking some time to figure out what we want. I realized that maybe part of the problem is that I wasn't sure what I wanted.

I have taken all of your advice and put most of it to use. I have tried to pamper my husband and be the best wife I can be. And when he needed it I gave him his space. Well now we are living together but are on a trial separation or something like that. He said he doesn't know how he feels. He doesn't know what he wants. And just like that my world crumbled. I've been the only one in this marriage for a year or so, and now I'm the only one left. As usual I'm the one left cleaning up the mess.

Goddess, you say "as usual I'm the one left cleaning up the mess".

Honestly, you are both so young, you have a very small child. This is SO salvagable. Do you really think that you are the only young couple who has realised that this is it. This is "maturity". Yes, it's tough being young and being young parents. You BOTH need to realise that this will pass (lol, my MIL used to say that to me when I was up to my eyes in babies and I thought "what do you know").

I would like to shake your H. This should be a happy, wonderful time for you both. It still can be. I understand so well what you both feel. I was 23 when I had my first child. It seemed like everyone else was doing their "20s" thing. They were travelling, they were going out. That is so transient. Now I have adult children and a happy marriage (after my A) and it is all worth it.

You need to see past what is happening now. Babies are hard work, but being parents to them is worth it. Children NEED their parents, they need BOTH parents.

Yes I know we are young and that we married young. I know that parenting is hard and especially on young people. Yes our friends are going out and partying and doing "stupid things", but most of them have kids too. I don't miss partying, cause I can barely handle alcohol any more. Besides, I feel like I did enough partying in high school to last till my 30's. I don't regret not doing what my friends are doing. I can't do anything to change my husband and the way he thinks. We've been going through this over and over again. And frankly I'm tired of it. He's put me through enough of this I love you, I love you not thing. I've tried to get him to change, and I've changed hoping it would help. Nothing really has changed since the first time that turned himself off like this. Well, I guess somethings have, now we're married with a kid. But this doesn't have anything to do with being parents. This has to do with my husband that is currently in an emotional coma. And I'm the devastated wife that sits by his side every day. But I think its time to pull the plug.

I talked to my mom about maybe going back home for a little bit. Just for a week or two, give him some time to figure out what he wants. And after I told him that he called his mom. They talked for a while and after they were done he came out and played with Jack. We were all having fun together, we felt like a real family. Saturday evening was nice while our son was awake, and even after he went to bed my H stayed out here in the living room with me. Although he was listening to music on his laptop, which did kind of bother me. But then his battery started to die and he took it and went into the bedroom. But still he slept in the bed and I slept on the couch. Today he spent most of the day in bed and our son woke up early so I was up with him. And when he was ready for a nap so was I, and since H was still in bed I went to sleep on the couch. While I was asleep he decided to go for a bike ride and I slept a little longer then got up and took a shower. But he over exerted himself on his bike ride, so he didn't really want to play with our son. I decided that I should talk to his mom, maybe she will help me understand what is going on.

That she did. First she told me that he told her he was afraid that if I left I was going to keep Jack from him. I tried to talk to him about it telling him that I would not do that. He said that he knows what kind of influence my family has over me. And I told him that they know how much I hated being kept from my father. He said that there is no way to tell what would happen. I asked if he had so little faith in me that I can't make my own decisions. And I told him that I would not try to take our son away from him. And he looked at me and with a very harsh tone he said he never said I would, and then he went to bed.

I plan on trying to talk to him tomorrow, but for tonight I'm still sleeping on the couch. My MIL told me that we both need some time apart, but at the same time we need some time alone together. I agree, but I won't force him until he's ready to spend that time with me. And frankly I don't think he's ready for that. But I will do my best to wait for him. As long as he wants this to work then I will do what I can to make it work. But if he doesn't then its over. And that's pretty much all there is to it.

Bumpity-bumpity-BUMP!!!

Bump!

Thanks Dancing_Machine but I didn't really think that I was gonna get much help here any way. My H prefers that we don't talk cause apparently all I do is [censored] at him. Its making me think he'd prefer I become a silent partner. I have been the maid, the nanny, and the cook....and he made it seem that is how he wants it to stay. So that's how it will stay. I am no longer worried about what I thought was important. Now I will simply do what I can to get through the day. I have camped out on the couch, and that is where I will stay.

BUMP!!

GL, I don't have time to read all the threads, but I check in when someone requests extra help. Sorry it took me so long. Here's my 2 cents.

Do NOT separate! That is the death sentence for your marriage! Do NOT! Tell your H whatever it takes to keep him from moving out, and don't you move out!

Then, find the Love Buster questionnaire here. Print out 2 copies. Make H a great meal, and after dinner, while you're still at the table (I hope you don't eat in front of the tv; if you do, STOP it!), tell him about this program you found while you were searching how to work on yourself and save your marriage. Ask him to fill out the LBQ so you will know what you do that he doesn't like; tell him once you know, you will eliminate those things to the best of your ability. And mean it!

If he wants it, you can fill yours out, too, but don't push it for now. Get his answers, and spend the next 2 months doing nothing but ensuring you have stopped all LBs.

In the meantime, map out time on your calendar for you and your H to spend time together - alone. Put the fun back in your marriage. MB wants you to spend 15 hours a week together just the two of you, without kids or work or drudgery. Find a way! If you don't have family nearby, find a babysitter. If you can't afford a babysitter, find a babysitting co-op. But make that time!

Also, start talking to HIM about HIS life. He obviously is disappointed in his life right now. Find out why. Is his job bad? Can he make a change? Can you help somehow? If nothing else, become the person he talks to about his job. Take him lunch if you can. Meet him at a park for lunch. Surprise him. Make his time away from home (and AT home) as nice as possible. But talk to him, about HIM!

Finally, after working on the LBs for 2 months, print out the Emotional Needs questionnaire. Ask him to fill out that one. And start making sure YOU are the person who meets every one of those needs. We can help with suggestions if you need it.

You can do this! But not if you're separated!

Its ok Catperson, there are a lot of people on here that need help. I appreciate all of those that did offer their two cents. I'll try the Love Buster if I can find it. lol. We aren't separating though. If I left I was only going to go back home for a week or two, but if I do he'd probably try and get me arrested for kidnapping. But I've decided to stay. But I'm pretty sure that our marriage is already over.

You said to talk to him about his life. I would love to, but he doesn't ever feel like talking. Least of all to me. He's disappointed in his life because he's stuck with me. He doesn't want to spend time with me, so I'm not going to force him to any more. If he wants to talk, I'm here for him. I've always been here, but the feelings aren't mutual. I am not the one that has been pushing him away. I am not the one that has stopped talking.

I will try the the Love Busters and if that doesn't help then I give up. We have gone through this for the last 5 years or so. He backs away from me and I get upset and tend to lash out at him. And we talked about that last night. But he never sees that he pushes me away. I try to get him to talk to me, but he doesn't want to. I make him feel uncomfortable. Therefore I guess I have been the one causing this. Therefore I am stopping everything. I am packing up all of my stuff, accept for the necessities like clothes and bathroom stuff. But all of my collectibles and nick-knacks and craft stuff that I can't get rid of is going in boxes. Yeah I know that makes it look like I've already given up, well that's because I have. I mean I'm sleeping on the couch for crying out loud, and speaking of, that's how I get to sleep at night by crying myself to sleep.

I don't want any thing to remind me that we were once a family. We are not a couple any more. Basically he is my employer, only I don't get paid, I just get to live and eat here for free. That's all there is left. I can't keep trying and putting myself in the position for him to squash all of my hopes and dreams and take my feelings and put them in the shredder. Because every time I talk about how I feel, that's what happens. He doesn't care about how I feel or what I want, frankly I'm not sure he ever has. Its all about him, and now you are telling me to keep letting it be all about him. Well I'm sorry, I've already lost so much of myself by doing that. I can't.

From now on, I will be the maid, the nanny, and the cook. I will live my life as a hermit taking care of our son. I have nothing left to give.

But I thank you all for your help.

If you truly feel that way, you owe it to your son, your husband, and yourself to go ahead and separate. Don't teach your son that it is acceptable to settle and not work, which he is learning from both of you.

I didn't say that we aren't gonna work at it. I'm just not putting forth any more extra effort. But I did print out the Love Busters and we talked about it. However the questions are really lame, so I printed out the Emotional Needs thing. And he has taken off tomorrow so he can go for his driver's license. And last night didn't feel as uncomfortable. He was upset about my stuff being packed, but I explained that I was trying to get rid of my obsessions. But we didn't talk much about it. He's giving me my space as well. Last night I didn't even cry. I think right now we just need to give each other our space. And then we can try to figure out whether we want to be together or not. But like I said last night wasn't terrible, and hopefully tonight won't be either, and then there is tomorrow. I haven't totally given up, if he's willing to try, then so will I. But I won't do it all myself.

Try reading The Dance of Anger. See if it helps any.

we can't afford any books, but I'll see what I can do.

Most libraries carry that book.

O/T
If you're tight on money, do you ever look for resale shops? I buy most of my clothes and some household stuff, and get bargains. Jeans for $6, shirts for $3, stuff like that.

I'll see if I can get to the library and check it out. As far as money being tight, most of the time it doesn't exist for us. There used to be a resale shop here in our town, but now its an ice cream shop. My MIL has been trying to get me to the one that she goes to, but there is always some reason we are unable to go. But my H and I need to go through our finances and try and come up with a better system. Hopefully some day I can start selling some of the stuff that I make, so we can have something more. But that's part of why I'm getting rid of some of my craft stuff, so I can focus on one thing and maybe full fill my dream. I've asked him what he thought of that, he didn't really seem to care. He doesn't really have much faith in me, but maybe if I work at it that will change. I also asked him if he wanted me to stay and he said yes. His mom has offered to help us, and I think that maybe we will be able to get through this if we have help from someone that has been in our exact position. As each day passes, I'm beginning to feel a little better. It may not be as over as I was afraid. Something I hate about myself is that I can be a little over dramatic.

What kind of craft?

Another way to get things cheap is eBay. (sometimes) Or a local version of eBay, or something like Craigslist.com.

Another wonderful website is freecycle.com. People post things they want to GIVE away so the stuff doesn't end up in the dumps. So you can get regular updates on things people in your area are giving away. I love it!

Yeah I've been to most of those sites. Actually I have two items on ebay to see if they will sell. So far all I have made is jewelry and incense burners. But I really want to be a plus size designer. I am not the best seamstress and I need a lot of practice and I need to learn how to make the clothes that I have designed.

Hmmm. How about...take some pictures of some of the jewelry that you've made, download them and create a flyer on your computer, and go to Kinkos and have about 10 copies printed out, and go to any local stores/locations that young women would go to, like a coffee shop, and ask the owner if you can post a flyer on their window, or put it on their counter. See if anyone calls. You could also save them up and sign up for some of the Christmas bazaars that always pop up at churches, and have a booth there to sell them. If you know any teenage girls, you could say to them that if they take orders for jewelry for you at their school and say it sells for $10, you'll give them $5 of it. That way, they are selling it for you! If you do enough of that, you could afford to take some sewing classes. My local sewing machine store gives afternoon-long classes for $25.

Thank you for the suggestions I'll see what I can do in this small town. Right now I'm more concerned with my marriage. We had a nice day even with the few set backs. Until I asked him "so where are we?" With some attitude he said " I don't know". I didn't say another word, because I didn't want to fight and I didn't really know what to say. But it hurt, it felt like he's avoiding trying to work on this or else he doesn't care any more. I'm really getting scared.

Bump

Well here we go again. We spoke last night and I offered to wipe the slate clean and if we loved each other maybe we could skip all the extra crap and just go back to being in love. So I asked him, "do you love me?" and he replied with, "honestly, I don't know. I know I care about you. but I can't say that I love you" And at least now I know I'm not completely paranoid. He said he doesn't know how long he's been feeling like this, but its been a while. And now he needs some time to figure it out. But that's why he hasn't been talking, because he doesn't know what to say. He doesn't know why he feels this way or how to change it or anything. I told him that he needs to figure it out, because we both deserve better. And that I'm not going to show my son that marriage is only about tolerating each other. I want him to see that its about love and respect. And again I offered to go to Nebraska if he thinks we need some time apart. And I offered to let him see other women if he needs to, just to see if he's happier with some one else. But as I feared, I believe that divorce is in our future.

We hugged last night before he went to bed and I really did my best not to cry. (I am an very emotional person) But as soon as he put his arms around me I started gasping for air. It felt like we were saying goodbye. After a couple minutes or so I had to let go. I couldn't even look him in the face when I left. I just let go and turned around as quickly as I could with my hands up by my face and left the bedroom to sit on the couch and cry some more.

Now we have his family coming to see us. His mom knows about part of what we are going through. And we know she told his brother and sister part of it, because they are all coming. But I guess we won't know whats going to happen till it happens. I just feel like digging a very large hole and climbing in and finding a way to cover it up and hid there till my husband comes to his senses.

And bump!

Here's another possible way for you to sell your crafts:

Etsy

It's strictly for handmade items, vintage items, and craft supplies, and the fees are cheaper than Ebay.

TJ/ Cat, are you sure that's the right link? Thanks

/TJ

Sorry, try www.freecycle.org

I'll check those sites out. But what do I do to make my husband fall back in love with me. How do I prove to him that we are meant to be? How do I make him want to stay with me? We were in love once. I know we were. We used to have a lot of passion and romance. At one time you couldn't separate us. I'm not sure what to do. Do I try to show him that we really were once in love? Do I help him remember that he did love me at one time?

Or do I continue to give him his space and let him figure this out on his own? Yesterday we spent most of the day with his family. His mom, sister, brother and his wife. And we all went to the park and his mom and I sat back and watched the rest of them play with our son. It was hard for me to just sit back and watch but I knew that if I was over there with them he would be spending less time with them and most of it with me. And his mom and I talked about what was going on. He's a lot like his dad and that is part of the problem. His dad didn't really want anything to do with him and his siblings when they were little and eventually left when he was 6 and his bro was 2 sis was 1. So he's never seen what a good dad/husband is. Frankly neither have I. He realizes he's been acting like his dad, and he's finally trying to change. But I don't know how to help him.

I always believe conversation is the key to everything. Find reasons to talk to each other. Do a crossword puzzle and ask him to help you figure out the clues. Watch a documentary and ask him what he thinks about the subject. Ask him if he'll take a swing dancing class with you. Go on a day trip to somewhere you've never been before. Find a local college, and go there and just walk around the campus talking about how it makes you feel.

Fill your life up with 'good' time. So he'll come to associate 'good time' with you. No pressure, no rush, just intent on finding good things about life that you can experience together.

In the early years of marriage, women are the relationship caretakers. They carefully monitor their relationships to make sure there is enough closeness and connection. If not, women will do what they can to try to fix things. If their husbands aren't responsive, women become extremely unhappy and start complaining about everything under the sun... things that need to get done around the house, responsibilities pertaining to the children, how free time is spent and so on. Unfortunately, when women complain, men generally retreat and the marriage deteriorates even more.

After years of trying unsuccessfully to improve things, a woman eventually surrenders and convinces herself that change isn't possible. She ends up believing there's absolutely nothing she can do because everything she's tried hasn't worked. That's when she begins to carefully map out the logistics of what she considers to be the inevitable, getting a divorce.

While she's planning her escape, she no longer tries to improve her relationship or modify her partner's behavior in any way. She resigns herself to living in silent desperation until "D Day." Unfortunately, her husband views his wife's silence as an indication that "everything is fine." After all, the "nagging" has ceased. That's why, when she finally breaks the news of the impending divorce, her shell-shocked partner replies, "I had no idea you were unhappy."

Then, even when her husband undergoes real and lasting changes, it's often too late. The same impenetrable wall that for years shielded her from pain, now prevents her from truly recognizing his genuine willingness to change. The relationship is in the danger zone.



Sound familiar Lacey? This is from Michele Weiner-Davis' article "The Walk-away wife"

I think you will soon find yourself in withdrawal -- rather than conflict with your husband. Then you will justify an affair. Because he doesn't care about you anyway.

And you will think you deserve some happiness for all that you have sacrificed and given up for your family.

Get help before this happens...

That sounds very familiar!! But I want to try something new. And right now we are in some major money trouble. And neither one of us really knows what to do, but we've been through this before. But for our relationship I am going to try to remind him how much he used to love me. I am going to bring out the letters that we used to write each other before I came down here to be with him. I am going to remind him how much he used to love me. And I'm going to make sure that he remembers how much fun we used to have and help him realize how much fun we can still have. And if that doesn't work then I guess its over. But I will not cheat. I don't care how bad it gets, I won't. I have the opportunity to when ever I want I know a few guys that would gladly take advantage of me. But I refuse because I will not cheat. I want to be held and kissed and romanced. But I won't risk everything for a little bit of pleasure that I don't even know is going to be satisfying. I'd rather have my husband either come around to dump me instead of cheat.

Lacey,
I am so sorry if you have felt attacked on other threads. That was not my intention at all. I hadn't seen your thread. You have been neglected here. I know that you don't buy in to all of the principles here yet - at least not for you. This stuff really can help though. The thing that helped me the most was to eliminate the Love Busters first. The next thing that has helped us is spending 25+ hours together each week (we are spending about 40 but don't have any children in the house anymore). Identify his top 5 emotional needs and get to work satisfying them. You have to build up his lovebank. If you can do this, he will naturally want to meet your needs as well if he is not seeing someone else. He is talking and acting like someone who may be approaching a zero or negative balance which is dangerous for a marriage. And, finally, don't think that he could not be having an affair. His distance and withdrawal from your marriage may be a sign of trouble. I'm not saying that he is having an affair. Just be aware of what may be going on. Don't blindly trust. Better to nip it in the bud IF something is going on.

Reminding him how he used to feel probably won't help him feel those feelings again. You have to meet his needs so he is actually feeling them now. What are his top emotional needs? You mentioned the questionaire a few posts back.

Thanks for the apology I appreciate that, but the thing is that I was jumped on for offering my opinion. I realize that it didn't go exactly with the way of MB, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't helpful. I have only tried to help, and got little in return. And I don't think I belong here, you all know that I don't. But I really do appreciate the apology. Thanks for all the fun drama, but I think I'll be stepping away from this site. I need to focus on finding a way to make my family some money anyway.

GL,

Get the book "Fall in Love/Stay in Love". I know money is tight, do you have a used book store nearby? Go to the top of the website and immerse yourself in the free articles by Dr. Harley. You cannot "make your H fall back in love nor will you "convince" him that he used to love you by showing him evidence. You need to lead him by filling his top EN's like your life depends on it.

GL -

Apparently not everyone agrees with this part of the MB welcome-

"The members of this community are peers and not professionals. This is a meeting place of people who have had some of the same problems you face. Each member shares their own experience, perspective, and opinion about various topics."

I hope you and Charlotte don't leave, as it gets boring when there is only ONE opinion tolerated. It gets old and stodgy.

AGAIN!!

Any problems, questions and/or concerns regarding MB, the forums or membership can be EMAILED to your listed mods and/or me!

I am going to suggest that this premise cuts BOTH WAYS. While folks are allowed to disagree with Marriage Builders, others are also allowed to DISAGREE WITH THEM. Tolerance, that I don't see being practiced here, should also be afforded to everyone, not just just who agree with you.

If GoddessLacey chooses to disagree with folks here, she should be prepared for folks to disagree WITH HER. In other words, tolerance of opinions cuts both ways. If you want to demand tolerance, you might want to be tolerant of others too.

I am always puzzled when folks think they are entitled to challenge others but think no one should be allowed to challenge THEM. I am not sure how that logic works.

Look every one needs to just calm down. I did not mean to cause such a ruckus. I am very well equipped to defend my reasoning. Because there is reason in my madness, however no one wanted to hear the reasoning. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, I think way out side of the box and am used to having arguments. I was prepared for people to disagree with me, but honestly I didn't expect it to get so heated. Nor did I expect others to come out of the woodworks that agreed that I wasn't wrong for expressing a different view. I was not going entirely away from the teachings here. I am sorry that things got so crazy, I did not expect things to turn upside down. Everyone just needs to take a deep breath and try to relax. I am leaving the site, because I have already caused so much turmoil and I was merely trying to help and get help. But it has gotten so out of hand that it has turned into nothing but drama.

Hope you and Charlotte will stay. Don't worry about the drama -it happens from time to time. Probably just spring fever.......

Mel makes a logical point.

Tolerating an opinion is not the same as agreeing with it. Tolerating someone else's view simply means accepting that it is their view, and that they are as entitled as anyone else to hold a view, even if it differs from one's own.

However, challenging that opinion is equally valid. To be challenged is uncomfortable, but that doesn't make it an attack. In fact, to have one's thinking processes challenged is actually a mark of respect - you're being asked, as a functional adult, to explain how you arrived at your opinion.

Having expectations that others should be 'gentle' with one's opinions, seems to me a sign that childhood has not been entirely left behind. In the real adult world, opinions have to stand up under their own weight and prove their worth. After all, no-one is going to be 'gentle' with Barack Obama at the G20, and nor should they.

TA

GL, I am glad to hear you are calmer today than last night; you were getting pretty unhinged there. My suggestion would be to keep an open mind when folks disagree with you and try and listen to what they are saying instead of getting so upset. Many of the folks posting here HAVE recovered their marriages while you HAVE NOT. Good luck and God Bless!

The most important thing to remember, IMO is that you can't just remind him how he used to love you. Doesn't work. The mind doesn't work that way. Especially if you're both getting ENs met elsewhere.

You need to SHOW him why being with you is the best choice. Give him something to be excited to come home to. Are you spending 15 hours together each week? Do you know what his Emotional Needs are? Do you know how you Love Bust him?

Look if it was more of a debate than ok I can understand. I realize that my marriage is still in trouble, and I thought maybe Fred and I could bounce a few ideas off of each other. I am willing to defend my ideas if it was possible to get anyone to listen. It was not people taking their position behind their ideas, it was people telling me that what I was saying was wrong. That because I'm a newbie I shouldn't offer advice to others especially other newbies. I was basically told to shut my mouth. If I was asked why I said what I said I would have been able to have responded. In the beginning of Fred's thread I told him to be true to himself.
And I was told this "puhleeeeze doh2"

And then I suggested something that I was trying in my own marriage to maybe wipe the slate clean and start from scratch, because it might work. To move on you must forgive right?
And the responses I got were unsettling to me. I was not expecting the responses to seem so rude. I was not attacking anyone I was trying to help.

And this is what I was told.
"GoddessLacey, have you read any of the MB material? The focus and goal of Marriage Builders is to CREATE ROMANTIC LOVE by using the concepts. Of course they are not in love now, but that does not mean they can't fall in love. That is the whole POINT! Romantic love does not happen by osmosis, there is a formula that must be practiced."

I agreed that I hadn't read the books but I have read several of the articles, and stated exactly that. And then was told, "GL, just a suggestion, avail yourself of the books before you give advice here. No one ever said to "force it." The whole program of MB revolves around the concept of falling in love again. So, just because a couple is not in love today, does not mean they can't be in the future. There is no reason this man can't have that."

And no where in any of my posts did I say to Fred that He couldn't get his W back. This was my original post to Fred. Did I say anywhere that he couldn't get his wife back? "Well I can only tell you from my experience. Neither my husband or myself have had an affair (at least not that I know of) but we are in trouble. We have been doing a lot of talking and trying to figure out what is going on and what we are going to do. For now, since I am a stay at home mom and don't have any money I can't go any where right now. But I am also waiting for my husband to come around, I believe that he does still love me. So talk to her. Tell her exactly how you feel. Make sure that she tells you the same. Give each other the chance to get your feelings out. And be as truthful as you can be."

I don't know, maybe I am wrong. I have been before and if I am I am willing to say so. But I think that even though what I said is not the exact way that MB teaches, I don't think that I was going against MB completely. And if so, then I apologize. I have been here many times before I signed up and I saw how some people get persecuted and I should have expected it, but I didn't.

GL, like I said, if you expect tolerance, you are going to have to be a little more tolerant and open minded of OTHERS. Tolerance does cut both ways.

Surely, you feel that others have the right to disagree WITH YOU since you disagree and contradict MB principles?

None of us are entitled to not be challenged. So, if you contradict MB principles, you can probably expect other posters to challenge you.

My suggestion, again, would be to try to keep an open mind and rather than trying to fix others, focus on FIXING YOURSELF FIRST. Fix your own marriage FIRST before you try and fix others.

Good luck!

Thank you, ML, you are making my point for me. I didn't say I wasn't tolerant. I can handle a debate, but there is no reason you should just tell me I am just flat out wrong. As I said I expected to be challenged. I expected a debate. And my mind is so open that you can't even glue it closed. I never said no one could disagree with me. But just because my marriage is not perfect that doesn't mean that I might not have good advice for someone else. I don't understand why you would say something like that. I really hope you are able to learn to listen to what is being said. You only seem to tell me how much I don't understand about myself. You only seem to keep making it sound like you are never wrong, as if just because my marriage is not solid I can't possibly have any good advice for anyone. I'm sorry but to me that is just rude. Which is why I used your posts (the two big one's in red) to make my point in my previous point. You have not offered me any advice on how to help my marriage only told me that I don't deserve to try to help anyone else. And that high horse attitude is going to really upset some one some day. I am sorry that I am not allowing myself to back down from you, but I don't see how you are better than I am.

Btw, would you like a potato chip?

Bwahahaha.....I'm cryin over here lol...the potatoe chip has a special place in my heart....if you didn't know......*sigh* ok I'll shut up now before I am *censored*

Why not? Aren't you tolerant of other opinions as you claim? Can you not see how you contradict yourself in this paragraph? You claim to be "tolerant" but then say I shouldn't tell you that you are wrong... huh? If you ARE wrong, there most certainly is a reason to tell you. Or is it only ok for you to tell others they are wrong, but not ok for them to tell you that you are wrong? How is that tolerant? How is that not hypocritical? You demand "tolerance" from others but practice none yourself.


This post of yours does not demonstrate open mindedness at all. Just the opposite, it demonstrates close mindedness to anyone who challenges you or says you are "wrong." However, if you expect to be challenged, I suspect you won't be disappointed if you continue to post opinions that are short sighted and clearly contradictory to Dr. Harley's.

I would again point out that folks come here to learn about MArriage Builders, Lacey, not about our personal, uneducated, inexperienced opinions about marital recovery. [when your own marriage is in deep trouble] I don't know about you, but I am not a trained psychologist. I only know how to sell soft drinks. That is why I stick to Marriage Builders concepts when talking to newcomers. They don't come here to hear my crap, they come here to learn about MB.


It does mean that you don't know how to fix your own marriage so its unlikely you can help others fix theirs. On the other hand, Dr Harley has saved thousands of marriages. You can't even fix your own marriage, how do you expect to fix others? Would you take weight loss advice from a person who is grossly overweight? Ask yourself that.


No thanks, I'm on a diet.

lacey,

Could part of your problem with your H be that he is feeling overwhelmed trying to carry the full financial burden for your family?

Are you both in agreement with you being a SAHM?

I suggest that you give MB a try. At least fill out the EN questionaire with your H and try fulfilling his EN's.

Step back before you react and say things that you regret. It is one thing to observe and say you are angry (calmly), it's entirely another thing to act out on your emotion. Your anger is just a manifestation of the hurt you are feeling because your H is withdrawn from the M.

If you do the EN's then it will be easier to do a plan A.

And no more relationship talk right now. I think all your questions about your relationship is stressing your H right now. Come here and vent, don't vent to your H right now.

I also suggest that you move back into your bedroom. You sleeping on the couch is not bringing you any closer to your H. It just keeps you further apart from each other emotionally, causing a further downward spiral in your relationship.

Give the EN thing a try. What do you have to lose? Is what you have been doing working for you? I think not. It is why you are here asking for help. So just give this MB thing a try, won't you?

Best wishes,

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thank you Miss M. I do have the EN's printed out. I have mine filled in, but I haven't given him his yet. Because like you said he doesn't want to talk about it. I am really thinking about sleeping in the bed tonight. And right now we are really having money problems. And again I offered to get a job over night, but he wants to take this burden on himself. I am going continue to try and sell the stuff that I make. And hopefully pretty soon will make some money?.... And he wants to concentrate on that right now. And when we are able to buy food again, we will be able to concentrate on our marriage.

GL, if your H wants to be the financial supporter of the family tell us what you are doing to support his efforts? Where are you making cuts in the household budget. Are you being his cheerleader? Are you remembering to thank him for his efforts? Remember that most men have admiration as one of their top EN's, how are you doing filling that EN? Are you keeping a tidy home for when he comes home from working hard for you? Do you have your son clean and ready to cuddle or play with dad at the end of the day?

That's not true at all, GL. Melody offered you advice about a month ago. Here are some portions I think are key:



Based on what you have written, you have certainly put in more effort than your H. But I don't believe you have followed the advice given: Stop LBs, Meet ENs and spend 15 hours a week giving each other Undivided Attention (no kids, family members, etc.)

One thing I've noticed in this thread is how you try talking with/to him and he doesn't want to. Being honest about how you feel is important to share, but it shouldn't dominate all your conversations. I would bet a lot of money that Conversation is NOT one of his top five ENs, so the time you're spending trying to have a conversation about your marriage is not building his Love Bank.

The other thing I've noticed is that you were talking about giving each other space, spending more time apart, etc. BAD IDEA. While this may avoid LBs, it will do nothing to help you two fall back in love with each other. It is anathema to the tried-and-tested Marriage Builders principles.

The answer to your question is really quite simple, it's just not easy.

Lacey, the other thing to remember that's so important is that it doesn't matter if you ARE meeting your H's ENs if you haven't FIRST stopped doing any Love Busting. LBs poke holes in your Love Bucket; no matter how many ENs you meet, if the LBs are there, the ENs will just keep leaking out of the holes, and his love for you will be empty.

Please do the LB questionnaire first. Work on eliminating the LBs consistently for at least a month or two, til you have changed your habits.

Then work on the ENs.

GL,I have a lot of respect for your MIL. And she says that you have been a huge support for her and she cares a great deal about you.

Why do you think she sent you here?

MOST of us on this board are here to help people save their marriages.

Dr. Harley says it is a narrow path. If both spouses follow his program, he guarantees you will have a wonderful marriage. He makes it clear that you cannot pick and choose which part to implement and which to throw out, and still expect the same results. EVERY part of the program is KEY to making it work.

Most of the advice you receive here is for the purpose of helping you implement Dr. H's program.

Did you come here so that you could share your ideas of what love is/should be? Or did you come here to save your marriage?

If you aren't here to save your marriage, then a lot of the people here would rather invest their time in helping someone who is.

If you are here to save your marriage, I suggest you come with a humble, teachable heart.

We have traveled a road that you DO NOT want to travel.

We have information we wish we had known when we were your age.

We want to share it with you and save you the worst heartache you could possibly suffer.

You have to be willing to hear and learn.

I know it's hard to BELIEVE that love and marriage is just about a silly love bank and love deposits and withdrawals. It seems to take the romantic, we-were-meant-to-be-together part out of it, doesn't it?

But WHAT IF this IS the path to that romantic love you are longing for?

Are you willing to try a program that has been fully implemented by many couples and proven successful when followed?


Your marriage is headed for infidelity whether you want to admit it yet or not. Maybe not this month, or this year, or in five years. But because of your naive thinking, you are leaving yourself and your husband open to great agony in the future. I pointed this out to you on Fred's thread, but I think you breezed over it. I was not attacking you. I was being honest with you. I would appreciate you reading what I said there and coming back here with your thoughts.

GL, I was wrong. It was not Fred's thread that I quoted you on. It was the skank-ho thread. I have gone there and copied my posts so that, if you are up for it, we can discuss it further.

Although the example you gave was not you flirting, you did express your belief that flirting is not dangerous to a marriage. That is the thinking that I would like to challeng you on. Because Dr. Harley believes it is very dangerous to a marriage and to work his program, you must protect your marriage from that type of hurtful, disrespectful behavior.

Here's my previous post:




You do realize those are words quoted over and over by EVERY WS that comes on this board.




It means that you are willing to let someone other than your husband meet your ENs.

Have you read anything Dr. H says about ENs?????

If so, you already know why this is not a safe thing for your marriage.




That would be because you both feel insecure and not safe in your marriage. You know you have competition. Dr. H says there should NEVER be competition in a marriage. You should be protecting each other from competition.







So you are not getting some important ENs met by your husband. And because you allow flirting (poor boundaries), your marriage is NOT affair-proof and is actually set up to suffer an affair.

What is needed for an affair?

ENs not being met.

Poor boundaries.

Right now you have both. You are in dangerous waters. It's time to PROTECT your marriage, not justify why it's OK to RISK it.

And then my next post:





Most people don't LOOK for an affair.

But they do exactly what you are doing...

Leave themselves open to one because they are sure they will never have one.








An important FIRST step to that would be to eliminate any opportunities for other people to make any deposits in either of your love banks.



Well, at your age, neither did most of the FWS's here.

But then 10 or 15 years down the road (and 2, 3, 4, or more kids)....

with love banks let open all that time...

eventually some OP hit enough ENs at the same time the spouse at home had been neglecting a few or love bustings and making withdrawals.

That's why Dr. H says GIVEN THE RIGHT CONDITIONS, ANYONE can have an affair.


You are young in your marriage.

It's a great time to protect it.

BEFORE the damage is done.

I'm telling you...
you don't want to live through what most of us here have.

Many of us said the same thing years ago that you are saying now.





Yeah, my FWH had many chances to.

But it didn't happen until we had been married for 19 years...pretty much happily married and in love. In fact, he even told OW during that month before the AF kicked in that he LOVED ME.

So what happened????

He had an open love bank...didn't see the harm in OW flirting (meeting his admiration EN), then emailing or phoning a woman other than his wife.

He loved me, but he didn't protect me or our marriage.

And eventually, he started saying to me all the typical things any WS says....I don't love you, haven't for years, blah, blah, blah.






Given enough time

and

the right circumstances (like a marriage in a slump)


and

it does.




Of course not. But you might eventually have sex with the one that deposited enough units to your low love bank to make your feelings stir.






I'm really unsure why you are defending yourself so much here.






When you've read enough stories here, you will see that it is very, very similar.

All the WS's started out saying the same thing you are saying

and

did not protect the marriage early on.




But it does make you a woman that is a danger to all her friends' marriages because she considers it acceptable to flirt and meet their husbands' ENs, at least their admiration EN, which is most often very high for men.

You are hurting their marriages and your own every time you flirt or allow someone to flirt with you.

Maybe it doesn't.

BUT...

Most affairs DO start out that way.

Why risk your marriage?

GL, if you do not reach the point of understanding why flirting is hurtful and dangerous to a marriage, you will never be willing to put into place those extraordinary precautions that affair-proof marriages.

That is why I am "harping" on this topic. It is THAT important.

GL, I have skimmed over this thread, and I am confused.

Do you suspect that your husband is having an affair?

Some of the statements he is making sound very familiar, sound very waywardish.

At minimum, perhaps he is indulging himself in intimate conversation (as you did with xbf) and having an EA. That could make him foggy.

I know you don't yet believe that you were having an EA, but from what you have said, it certainly sounds like one. I hope you realize that it is CRITICAL to your marriage that you have no contact with xbf ever again. He is a threat to your marriage.


Have you been snooping on your husband? Have you found anything suspicious? I am sorry, but there are many red flags.

Good job SMB. You have said so eloquently what needed to be said. One of my daughters is probably GL's age and I would tell her the same thing... to protect her.

What IS that saying??? Oh yeah... if I only knew then what I know now.

GL, again, no one is picking on you. Just trying to head you off the path to destruction.

Dancing Machine,

I am very confused.

Am I correct that GL is your DIL?

Do you live close by???

Some of your questions sounded like you suspect he is having an affair. Do you???

And why all the games on the board???

Hi SMB,

Yes. This is why I was upset when everyone jumped on her.

Yes. We live less than a mile from each other in the same town.

I don't know. I hope not. She doesn't think so, though. I don't trust this "friend" of his, that's for sure.

What games? I was keeping my mouth shut so the "Shadow of Gray" wasn't looming over her here. I just felt like I might be a detriment to her getting help here so I didn't say anything immediately.

Is that what you are talking about?

Thanks,

Charlotte

I'm sure you want her to receive help here or you never would have sent her here. But she's got to be willing to listen and LEARN about DR. H's program. Her marriage is clearly in a crisis of some sorts, and posting on other newbie's threads about her opinions based on her feelings isn't going to help her or those she is posting to.

You know that.

I hope she will continue to post on her thread, because her marriage needs MB.



Are you able/willing to help her snoop? Because she needs to know what she's up against (whether there is an OW).





Of course she doesn't think so. None of us thought it possible in our own marriages. But I agree with you, the "friend" doesn't sound like a safe situation for her marriage. What concerns me most is her husband's comments to GL. It all sounds very familiar.




Posting on her thread as if you didn't know her.






I confess I don't know what you mean here. I have not spent much time on your thread (other than to see a few bravo's for your bulldog), so maybe I'm out of the loop on why you feel her relationship to you would be a threat to her getting help here. I don't need to know, though, so no need to explain.

It doesn't matter to me who her family is. All that matters to me is whether she is willing to learn MB. If she's not, then I have no reason to post to her thread. So far, she has shown little to no interest in actually learning what Dr. H says about saving marriages.

I hope that changes...for her sake.

I certainly won't bash her for no good reason. But I will deliver the well-meaning 2X4s when her thinking is dangerous to her marriage.

GL, I encourage you to continue posting on your thread. Your marriage is full of red flags, and this IS the best place to learn how to save it.

I am very concerned about you.

What snooping have you done?

Wow, its going to take me a while to answer all your questions and comment on your comments. And to start I will say that things have gotten better, even though we are still in financial hell. We've been less hostile and I'm back to sleeping in the bed.

I realized that after it seemed that he had given up, I had too. And I realized that I hadn't been a very supportive and giving wife. Something clicked in my head that I was basically saying, "If you don't care, I don't either" But that is why I have decided to become the beacon of hope around here. And that is unusual for me, because I am naturally negative. But I want to change things and I have to start with myself.

I went back and reread some of the posts and the best way I can say it is that my definition of flirting is different from all of yours. You can say that I am just really nice if you prefer. Because when I talk to people there is nothing behind it.

And just a quick note, when Dancing_Machine, who yes is my MIL, told me to come here she thought I could help others. Because at that time, my marriage was not in any trouble what-so-ever. I posted once or twice and then was treated again the same way I was this time. And she was able to convince me to come back when I was unsure about my marriage's future. But because I hope to become a counselor some day she thought I could help. I have read the articles here and printed out some of the questionnaires. And I understand that there is a specific path to follow, and I am sorry that I suggested things that are not exactly on that path. But that doesn't mean that I was going against Dr. H's ways. It may have seemed that way to you, but I not to me.

I realize that many of you are here because of something bad happening in your marriage. And I realize that you are only trying to help. However some of you have to understand that not every one is going to just fall in line to what you say. And that if you are rude about the way you say it, that is only going to make people hostile. I am personally an emotional person and do not take kindly to people thinking that they are better than me. I was not offended by what was said but figured that we could all be adults about the conversation. I realize that I am not a veteran at this, and I hope not to be. But that does not mean that just because my marriage is in turmoil that I can not provide some solace and a few ideas to others. But believe me I will no longer post to anyone else. Because I do not wish to offend others. I just hope that an understanding can be met here.

And despite how it may seem I do believe in the love bank and taking care of each other's EN's. However I was in denial and didn't want to place any of the blame on myself. I knew that he wasn't making deposits into my Love bank, but wasn't ready to consider that I wasn't making any in his. I was being very selfish and I realized that the less effort I put in, the even less effort he would put in. A lot of the problems in my marriage are my fault, because I give up to easily. And he has made me realize that. But I want nothing more than to be with him and to love him and to be loved by him. I still believe that I can not force him to love me, nor will I try. But what I will do is prove to him that I love him and that I am not ready to give up on us. I have always been jumping the gun and seeing things that aren't there. I have a problem with paranoia and that has been a huge problem in our relationship. But i will say one thing that I do not know if he is having an affair. I don't think so, just because of what is going on with his father and Dancing_Machine. And he has been cheated on as well, in fact I was the one that proved that to him 10 years ago. However I will not snoop. I used to do that before every time that I got paranoid. I would go through his phone and the computer, and never came up with any evidence. But I refuse to do that again, I felt horrible for doing it. I believe that deep down he does love me, he's just tired of all of the negativity. Therefore I will do everything in my power to remain as positive as I can.

And despite how it may seem I do believe in the love bank and taking care of each other's EN's. However I was in denial and didn't want to place any of the blame on myself. I knew that he wasn't making deposits into my Love bank, but wasn't ready to consider that I wasn't making any in his. I was being very selfish and I realized that the less effort I put in, the even less effort he would put in. A lot of the problems in my marriage are my fault, because I give up to easily. And he has made me realize that. But I want nothing more than to be with him and to love him and to be loved by him. I still believe that I can not force him to love me, nor will I try. But what I will do is prove to him that I love him and that I am not ready to give up on us. I have always been jumping the gun and seeing things that aren't there. I have a problem with paranoia and that has been a huge problem in our relationship. But i will say one thing that I do not know if he is having an affair. I don't think so, just because of what is going on with his father and Dancing_Machine. And he has been cheated on as well, in fact I was the one that proved that to him 10 years ago. However I will not snoop. I used to do that before every time that I got paranoid. I would go through his phone and the computer, and never came up with any evidence. But I refuse to do that again, I felt horrible for doing it. I believe that deep down he does love me, he's just tired of all of the negativity. Therefore I will do everything in my power to remain as positive as I can.

GL, I'm going to address your previous posts one more time, because there are some things I think are important to clarify. Then I will drop this topic with you.




Flirting is simply making love unit deposits in someone's love bank through admiration. It comes in all shapes and sizes, and may or may not have a sexual tone to it.





I find it baffling that DM sent you to Marriage Builders to help others when, 1) you've never experienced infidelity that you are aware of, and 2) you had little to no knowledge of the principles of MB.




This "hope" doesn't make your advice sound. And those of us who have implemented MB principles speak from experience.
Your advice is based on feelings, and when you learn more about MB, you will realize how quickly our feelings can lead us astray.



The articles are a good place to start.







In my above posts, I quoted your words and explained how those ideas DO go against Dr. H's principles.

You certainly have a right to post your opinions, even if they are based on nothing more than your feelings and have nothing to do with MB. BUT expect that when you come to MARRIAGE BUILDERS and offer advice that is in complete contrast to the program explained here, others WILL and SHOULD point out the flaws in your opinions. Otherwise, your well-intended but uninformed advice could most easily lead someone right into divorce when their desire is to save their marriage.




GL, nobody treated you as if they thought they were better than you, just more knowledgeable about infidelity and the Marriage Builders program--and they are.




See, GL, people come here under the highest level of stress. Many have just suffered the most traumatic event of their lives and will develop post-traumatic stress symptoms. Some are close to a nervous breakdown.

They come here to SAVE their marriage under conditions that seem utterly hopeless. When someone comes here, uneducated about MB and the dynamics of infidelity, but thinks they have much to offer, they often do a great deal of damage to the person's efforts at saving their marriage.

I will tell you that MelodyLane is one of the wisest people on this board when it comes to identifying the signs of an active affair and leading BS's through Dr. Harley's Plan A and B. She gives a great deal of time here to help people like me, who came here when their world crumbled and were in desperate need for a glimmer of hope. She keeps them on Dr. H's narrow path because if they stray from it, they almost always get lost in the darkness. She has been a literal LIFELINE to many of us. Yes, she offends some, usually because they don't want to hear the truth and she sees right through this. But because of her straight talk, she is able to cut through the confusion and hopelessness that most of us come here with.

She has much to offer you, if you are willing to become teachable. Your pride prevents you from hearing what is obvious to some of us reading your posts. We wouldn't post to you if we didn't see YOUR NEED for help.

I'm glad you're back. The person who believes he has nothing to learn...

Anyway, this struck me:
Being that you are considering becoming a counselor, I thought you'd appreciate the thought that assuming what someone else is thinking is the number one cardinal sin in counseling terminology. Right?

You will benefit from learning more about yourself to realize why you assume that just because someone gives you their opinion, it is based on them believing you are inferior. Probably nothing farther from the truth.

If you hang around here long enough, you'll see that the number one trait each and every one of us achieved here at MB is humility.

You can't fix your own life if you don't start by admitting its problems. If you read any threads, you'll see that almost everyone who comes here, comes with a 'he/she is scr&wing up our marriage and I'm disgusted with him/her' attitude. We sling a few 2x4s, they fight back (like you), we are patient and keep slinging and adding more info, until one day it 'clicks' and the new poster goes 'wow, now I get it! It's not him/her, it's ME!'

Now, that's not to say the spouse isn't doing something wrong. But the main MB tenant, I believe, is fix YOU and the marriage fixes itself.

So anyone commenting to you about your beliefs does so because they see a weakness in them that may cause you grief in your own marriage.

I'd also comment that this:
is a big red flag because it highlights deepseated personal issues of your own that need to be addressed before you can expect anything better from your H. I hope you're deep enough into learning about counseling that you can see that.

I recommend a phenomenal book that can help with this. It's called Healing the Shame That Binds You. I really urge you to look it up.

And good luck.

Now that sounds familiar. :crosseyedcrazy:


My FWH thanks me today for snooping, exposing, and working Dr. H's plans. He says I fought for him, for our marriage, and for our family. He and I both know that if I had not snooped and found out the truth, we most likely would be divorced now.

GL, I said it sounds familiar because I told Melody the same thing about 2 years and 3 weeks ago.

But...

she was right...

and I was wrong.

Because she knew what I was dealing with...

and I did not.

If I hadn't snooped, my husband would still be having an affair. I would still think that we were going through a rough patch. I would still think that it was me, my weight, his broken collarbone that never healed correctly, financial pressure, his acid reflux... You can make excuses and close your eyes or you can get the truth. There is nothing wrong with determining the truth. Maybe he is not doing anything wrong. I hope he isn't. You have to know what you are dealing with in order to make the situation better. For the last two years, I took everything that my husband complained about to heart. I gave him everything that he said he wanted. I worked myself to death. Nothing helped. He wasn't telling me the real problem. I had no clue. I didn't snoop until I was ready to give up and was thinking about divorce. I needed to know why we couldn't make it. Once I found out, I knew that I couldn't divorce. I was relieved because I finally knew what the real problem was. Now , I could do something. My husband ended the affair the day that I found out and I confronted him (and her). Once the barrier of lies was torn down, we could look each other in the eyes and really see each other for the first time in months. I had my husband back. It has been an excruciatingly painful experience that I would not wish on anybody (except maybe OW). The marriage builder concepts do work. They are not easy and they go against your natural instincts. Protect your marriage from the evil and pain of adultery. If you can keep your marriage strong, you won't ever have to know the pain of a BS. You cannot even comprehend how much it hurts. It is actual physical pain. My chest has actually ached where my heart is. I have thrown up in a restaurant (bathroom) when my husband took me out to lunch with coworkers the first week after dday and coworkers asked me jokingly about my husband's girlfriend- they didn't realize that my husband actually had a girlfriend. These are just a few of the physical aspects of the ultimate betrayal that adultery is. Don't be too proud to snoop. It saved my marriage. My husband didn't like it but there was no other way. Most WS never admit anything. You can ask until you are blue in the face. They lie.

Posting on her thread as if you didn't know her.

I reiterate:


I was trying to protect her. Gray is a very, very sore subject since this is his second time to trash a marriage because of adultery. ODS was totally freaked out and worried about it being possibly hereditary since both Gray AND Gray's father cheated on their wives.

I didn't want any negative cast over Lacey in any way because of my connection to Gray. He is my cross to bear.


Not our relationship but my relationship to Gray.

ROTFLMAO!!

Yeah, Bravos to my Doberman. More than a few, LOL! But he deserves major kudos for helping me learn how to be a human again and not feel like a "statistic."


I know you won't. But she WAS attacked, I wasn't the only one who felt this. It was like the scene from Excalibur where the crows are picking out the eyeballs of the corpse hanging from the tree.

ODS recognizes that he has similarities to Gray that he wants to eradicate. He can do it. I had to myself so I know. I think that is a good first step. Plus, both of them have talked with XW and now YDS and DD know about everything, too. It's not a secret anymore and this is a good thing as well.

As far as the "friend," I didn't trust her when she came back into the picture last year and she did an AWFUL thing to DIL, which I don't know if she wants to reveal here so I won't.

I feel like ODS should ditch the witch, she is NOT a friend to the marriage, much less either one of them.

So we'll see what happens with that.

Charlotte

I don't. She's good at helping others. VERY good.

Besides, we have a young whippersnapper here who posts advice all the time and has never even been married.

Charlotte

This is getting juicy again. Who is the young unmarried whippersnapper???

ROTFLMAO!!!



I'll tell you offline. I ain'ta sayin' it here, though!



Charlotte

Wait, let me get my pitchfork...
Okay I'm ready now.
:twobyfour:

DM, I find this more than a little disrespectful to the DEEPLY wounded people who arrive here. They're not in need of a head massage from a sweet amateur aromatherapist; they're in urgent need of serious surgery and intensive care. Surely you understand the difference?

I'm sure that your DIL is a lovely person, but from her posts, I get the impression that she's young, inexperienced, naive about relationships, touchy, and a little self-involved . All of which is perfectly reasonable for a young woman in her mid-twenties with no history of having battled her way through a major life trauma. I'm sure I was much the same at her age.

However, there's very little that a person of such limited experience can offer the kind of deeply wounded people who arrive on MB.

To send her here to seek help with her own marriage is one thing. To send her here to 'counsel' people who are dealing with a crisis more painful than anything she can possibly imagine, is quite another.

'Warm' and 'well-intentioned' do not necessarily equate to 'wise'.

OH MY GOD!!

Disrespectful? To want to help those in pain who come here? EVERYONE is needed here, sometimes just to talk to someone who will listen.

Initially she asked me if I thought she could be of help and I told her YES. Of COURSE!! Goodness knows once I got the plans going I came here just to have people to talk to.

It is NOT just all about the plans!

Good Golly, Miss Molly!!

:crosseyedcrazy:

Charlotte

I very much agree with TogetherAlone and thought she made a very good point. Its one thing to come here to chat with people, but its quite another to post ADVICE to grieving and heartsick newcomers when you don't have the slightest understanding of MB concepts. And that is exactly what she did.

This is why so many people on this forum have jumped in and corrected her, Charlotte. These newcomers are here to learn about MB, not about our personal, uneducated philosophies about marriage when we have no wisdom and experience ourselves. That does nothing but cause confusion and conflict on a newcomers thread. People don't come here to hear my crap or your crap, they come here to learn about Marriage Builders.

Meaning well is not the same as DOING WELL.

Would you consider it a virtue if I went over to the General Dentistry forum and gave advice on denistry to newcomers? What if I offered to do open heart surgery on my neighbor just to prove my altruism? Would that be a virtue even though the only thing I know how to do is sell soft drinks?

If it was "just to talk" it'd be different. But what about newbies who come here in pain ASKING for help/advice? Do you really think it's appropriate for her to be giving advice to them about restoring their marriage?

I don't.

Because those same newbies may think they're getting MB advice when they're not. I'll call that out every time no matter who it is. Sorry.

Are....you...serious.....

Ok everyone needs to go to there prospective corners and take a big BREATH.

The blaming an finger pointing needs to stop here and now.....seriously....EVERYONE HAS A POINT OF VIEW. That's why god gave us all individual personalities.

You guys are gonna have to agree to disagree on this and let it go.

I personally think we should have people of all ages adding insight....because I know my mom doesn't understand my point of view on things as we are from different generations......because everyone is different. Generations change and fresh perspectives from those younger people who are out in that younger scene should always be welcome.

Are....YOU...serious.....

This is an important issue especially for newbies.

Nobody is finger pointing or blaming. Hardly.

There ARE people of all ages who post here who GET IT. But MOST people don't start posting ADVICE until they understand MB and even then MOST give a caveat explaining their inexperience if they are.

That's it for me. Good luck GL. I wish you well.

Thanks for the unsolicited advice, SIHW, but unless you are a moderator, you are out of line telling others folks here to shut up. The last I checked, I didn't see a little "M" next to your name.

I seriously do not want us to miss out on great members because of this rediculous tension. We will loose great people from this board if the fighting does not stop.

SIHW, how does tellig people to shut up not add to the "rediculous tension?" How about dropping the self appointed mod act, SIHW, and stop adding to the conflict.

Where does she say to "shut up" again? I don't see that anywhere in her post.

She is not trying to be a "mod," she is trying to make a point and a damn good one. I have seen A LOT of people run off from this board and I have kept my mouth shut.

People who needed help. That is so NOT COOL.

Charlotte

ENOUGH OF THIS!!!!!!

This thread is now locked.