Marriage Builders
Story:

6 weeks ago discovered WW and good friend were having an affair. Didn't take much snooping to discover - WW was practically addicted to texting and on-line records clearly showed who was receiving (thank you Verizon!). Confronted friend first before confronting WW. Affair had been going on for 3 weeks prior to discovery, so 9 weeks total - not too long, thankfully.

Well, suffice to say, I threw a big wrench into their plans. They were just starting to get into it and things just blew up immediately. Wife of OM quickly found out. We were all close friends within the same ward (church congregation) so a number of close friends found out quickly as well. Convinced WW to see bishop (like a pastor) immediately. Within 4 weeks both OM and WW were excommunicated from church (very big deal for me). Both were temple marriages frown

Two weeks ago found out WW is pregnant. That complicates things. I discovered this site about a week after D-Day and was already putting Plan A into place, but the pregnancy complicates things immensely. There is now a living bond between the two and OM feels obligated to take care of child. WW is baby-hungry and won't give up for adoption or anything else. Have had two miscarriage scares so far, but can't bring myself to hope for that. WW has already gone through 4 miscarriages (one at 14 weeks...that was really bad).

OM and WW are completely insane - doing and saying things that are just completely crazy, following the same script as everyone else. WW will quickly abandon children to see OM. Completely addicted. My 20 month-old DS is suffering, breaks my heart to think of the effect this may have on him over time.

I am finishing up SAA - great book, lots of good stuff. Unfortunately, I'm only at Plan A so I can only apply a little bit of the wisdom contained therein.

Family of WW is completely on my side. All friends of WW have abandoned her. Only ones left that will talk to WW are myself and OM. I have had some pretty in-depth discussions with the OM but the addiction is so strong that he can't break it off and the pregnancy now has him locked in, it seems.

WW and OM have agreed to 2-month "break" but I am skeptical - they have tried in the past only to fail within a day. I have warned them that first two weeks of withdrawal are going to be absolute hell. We'll see how long it lasts.


Where I am now:

I am in Plan A. I have personally committed to Plan A until January 3rd at which point I will be ready for Plan B, should it be necessary.

Emotionally, I feel much better than I have over the past 6 weeks. The trauma is not as severe as it was in the beginning. For those of you who have recently discovered - have hope!!!! Yes, you will get through this, one way or the other, and yes! the pain will subside. But it still hurts, no doubt about it. Time heals all wounds, I guess.

Right now I'm leaning heavily on the Lord. There is no one else that can fix this but Him. I've discovered that I have far greater patience than I ever thought possible. It's not so much me as it is the Lord, bearing my burdens. This particular scripture has helped me a lot:

"And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came to them in their afflictions, saying: Lift up your heads and be of good comfort, for I know of the covenant which ye have made unto me; and I will covenant with my people and deliver them out of bondage.
And I will also ease the burdens which are put upon your shoulders, that even you cannot feel them upon your backs, even while you are in bondage; and this will I do that ye may stand as witnesses for me hereafter, and that ye may know of a surety that I, the Lord God, do visit my people in their afflictions.
And now it came to pass that the burdens which were laid upon Alma and his brethren were made light; yea, the Lord did strengthen them that they could bear up their burdens with ease, and they did submit cheerfully and with patience to all the will of the Lord."

I get the patience thing...but I'm still working on cheerfully - that's a bit tough right now.


Questions:

- SAA says most affairs die a natural death, but is that also the case when there is a pregnancy involved, particularly when WW has no plans of giving it up?

- I have been able to endure so far but I wonder if I have the patience to make it until January. Any suggestions short of pray, pray, pray?

- In Plan A, how much do I tolerate? SAA says, keep WW happy as much as possible, but does that mean allowing rendezvous even when I know what is happening? Should I avoid conflict at all cost? I feel like I'm condoning sin...
IN Dark....

No question about it "you've got a tough row to hoe"

I know the pregnancy adds a whole other dimension to what is already a terrible situation.....I know that there is a forum here that deals with pregnancy aspects that's private from the rest of us and you just have to ask a moderator to get in to it....

I can say from my experience that until you have no contact (NC) in place you aren't going to make any progress .....

You have to be patient.... I'm a solid 4 months into this round of NC and am finally starting to see some signs of recovery on her part....That's a lot of treading water...but I have to say I optimistic that the book is right!!!! Dr. H. has a plan that works and you to stick to it and wait.....

Most affairs die a natural death .....It's your job to aid in its' demise....by what you have done. Now you have to do your best to work that plan A while ensuring that NC is in place....

If you can get the WW to do the NC and keep it in place,then just like the book says after she gets over her addiction to this OM then you will begin to have a chance to meet her needs and begain the rebuilding process.....

As for surviving the next few months I would busy my self with snooping everything you can to insure NC stays in place....I would do everything in my power to meet her top EN's......

BE Strong, BE Attractive, Don,t be needy weak or cry (in front of her).....You want to be a Man any woman would be proud to have as a husband...... show that confidence around her...


And you have to figure out how you are going to react if she brakes the NC.... You have to have a plan thought out that is logical and will work for you....

Hang in there you are not alone....
You are not just in marital warfare, you are in spiritual warfare. Steven Cramer wrote a book called "The Worth of A Soul" - I think he's re-written it under his real name, but I can't remember it - if you look under this title though, you should find it. There's a chapter in there where he explicitly describes the spiritual vulnerability he felt after excommunication and what was turned loose on his family as a result.

You need to read it because as an active priesthood holder, you have the ability to protect your family.

Can you move - I mean really move away - out of reach?

Are your bishop and stake president working on a plan for spiritual recovery? If not, please ask them to help you because what's going on now is not working and you cannot let her continue to live in the house - the children stay - she goes - if she continues to bring evil into your home!
indarkness, has this affair been exposed to everyone in your families? To your family, your WW's family and the OM's family? That is where I would start if you haven't done that yet. Exposure is your most powerful weapon because it can serve to ruin the fantasy of the affair.

Your 11 and 5 year old children should also be told so they understand what is happening to their family.

Others here have been in the same situation as you and have raised an OC, so hopefully they will weigh in. That being said, your marriage won't make it if she is still in contact with the OM, so you would want to look into getting all his legal rights removed. Continued contact over the years will destroy your marriage and your childrens family so you have to protect yourself from this.
Originally Posted by indarkness
[b
- In Plan A, how much do I tolerate? SAA says, keep WW happy as much as possible, but does that mean allowing rendezvous even when I know what is happening? Should I avoid conflict at all cost? I feel like I'm condoning sin...

Cause as much conflict as possible in the affair. Your job is not to make the WW happy being bad, but to show her that you are willing to meet her needs in the future if she ends her affair.

If she goes to meet the OM, follow her and confront them. Call up his wife each and every time. When you find out your W has been with her lover, everyone should know, his wife, your children, everyone who is around. CAll the OM everytime he meets your wife. Make his life a living hell.
The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.
Indarkness,

You have a lot going on on the emotional and spiritual side. With the OC, it brings in a whole host of other legal ramifications. Have you talked with a lawyer yet? Some things to consider:

1. Are you sure the OC is the OM's? A pregnancy is often used by women in affairs (married or not) as a tool to keep the OM around. Are you sure the WW is even pregnant?

2. Since you are married to WW, you are the father of the baby in the eyes of the law. For the OC to have the OM on the birth certificate, a paternity test would have to be done to establish who the the father is. Then, the ball is in your court whether to legally give up your parental rights. While it sounds like you aren't in plan Divorce yet, it is something to keep in the back of your head if you decide to file in the months ahead. I would consult with an attorney now to see what your legal obligations are.
3. Given the above, you really need to be careful how you handle a pergnant WW - if you do go into a plan B and you go into plan D, kicking WW out while pregnant may look really bad in the eyes of the court. Again, check with an attorney.
2.
Best to plan A.

Expose WW and OM every where you can.

Make it difficult for WW to spend time with the OM as you strive for NC between them.

Is there a chance the OC is yours?

This is a war, not one battle it will take time.
It will take A LOT of time.

If you have any OC questions, I'm here.
Quote
It will take A LOT of time.

If you have any OC questions, I'm here.
_________________________
Me, too.
I want to respond further, but I don't have much time right now. I am also LDS and a FWW. I was disfellowshipped, but not excommunicated after my A. My H and I are still together, raising my OC, who is now 1 year old. We have NC with the OM.

It was a long road to get to where we are now, but it can be done.

I really would like to talk to you about this more, since our stories seem to share a lot of similarities. Albeit, I'm on the other side of the issue, but I may be able to offer some insight on your WW's mindset right now. Also, I'll try to get my H to re-register. His account was lost when the site went down a few weeks ago.

Hang in there. This is a very difficult time, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Hi,

I am not supporter of your denomination. Every marriage is very, very important and I will back you in any way that I can.

Please listen to what Psubiker writes. I suspect that the OM may not be able to have the baby DNA'ed while you are still married. Confirm this with your lawyer.

Regards.
I'm a former Mormon, and I was the betrayed spouse of my wife's emotional affair with another man.

No-contact since August 25. Admittedly, there was no sex and no child involved, but the withdrawal was still severe: lie upon lie, deceit upon deceit until she finally "woke up", realized the carnage she was causing pursuing this other man, and broke it off.

A big, big part of this waking up was my constant interference in that relationship. I'd intercept emails, reroute, arrange to kill the mood when they talked by having friends call or drop by... she called me "controlling", "vengeful", and all kinds of other bad names as a result.

The other half of my Plan A was hitting her emotional needs as hard as I could, particularly the need for conversation and admiration the other man filled. Ultimately, though, it's going to be her decision to break it off... all you can do is help provide incentive to be with you, and disincentive for her to be with the other man.

But it can work. Your marriage can survive her anger; it cannot survive a never-ending affair.

Good luck, bro.
Originally Posted by Barnboy
A big, big part of this waking up was my constant interference in that relationship. I'd intercept emails, reroute, arrange to kill the mood when they talked by having friends call or drop by... she called me "controlling", "vengeful", and all kinds of other bad names as a result.

Exactly! And most importantly, CONFRONT the OM every time. Either in person or on the phone. Tell him "HELL IS COMING." smile
>she called me "controlling", "vengeful", and all kinds of other bad names as a result.

Druther that than stand by and passively watch my husband commit his soul to h-e-double-hockey-sticks.

You do what you have to.
Thanks for all the replies. I'll try to answer the various questions then offer up some thoughts.

"Can you move - I mean really move away - out of reach?" - I could, but my entire support network is here and I think the OM is near moving away, not out of reach, though. If it comes down to it, I will, but if it's out of state, WW has to be willing which she currently is not.

"Are your bishop and stake president working on a plan for spiritual recovery?" - Just got a new Stake Presidency which was unfortunate because WW really connected well with previous one. She doesn't like the Bishop and ignores his counsel. Doesn't seem to be a solid plan yet, we need to counsel more to see this happen. I have not talked to the new Stake President yet.

"indarkness, has this affair been exposed to everyone in your families?" - Yes, everyone who can deal with knowing, knows, including key friends. All, so far, are on my side.

"Are you sure the OC is the OM's? " - Unless an act of God is involved, yes. And WW is definitely pregnant, confirmed by ultrasound.

My biggest difficulty right now is toeing the line of Plan A. My understanding after reading SAA and this site is that the general goal of Plan A is to create a happy memory - a loving place, in case Plan B is necessary. Kind of tough to create a loving place when there is constant contention about interaction with OM. I'm trying to protect my children from angry outbursts and emotional insanity. Nevertheless, I completely agree that there can be no healing while A continues.

The NC period begins tomorrow. As I said, I'm skeptical it will hold but I haven't considered what to do if it doesn't, short of calling them weak-kneed cowards :-). Need to think more on that.




When you are in Plan A you have to expect some contact. You cannot let contact ruin your attempts at plan A. A pregnant WW is very problematic. Waywards are already messed up but a hormonal WW is even more difficult. She will have this deep seated desire to nest with the father of her child. You MUST take this time before the OC is born to do a solid plan A and then plan B. Unfortunately you must be the one to hold the family together for the sake of your kids, so plan B will mean kicking her out and letting the OM completely meet her needs.

Are you prepared to raise OM's baby? Not all men are willing and able to do this. If you can recover the M, OM must not be part of this "family". It should be you as the father of record (and many here are going to tell you I am wrong) and raising the child in a happy, intact family. OC can be told of his/her biology when appropriate, like you do with an adopted child.
Originally Posted by indarkness
My biggest difficulty right now is toeing the line of Plan A. My understanding after reading SAA and this site is that the general goal of Plan A is to create a happy memory - a loving place, in case Plan B is necessary. Kind of tough to create a loving place when there is constant contention about interaction with OM.

indarkness, Plan A has nothing to do with ENABLING. Te purpose of Plan A is very simply to demonstrate a willingness to meet the WS's needs in the future while doing everything reasonable to kill the affair. That does not mean to enable the affair or pretend like nothing is happening. Dr Harley has been very clear that in Plan A, the BS is supposed to "CAUSE AS MUCH CONFLICT AS POSSIBLE." Make the marriage happy, but make the AFFAIR conflicted and troublesome.

That means confronting the OM every time. That means calling his wife, calling his parents, etc.

Quote
"indarkness, has this affair been exposed to everyone in your families?" - Yes, everyone who can deal with knowing, knows, including key friends. All, so far, are on my side.

What do you mean by this? Who knows? Have all your parents and your children been told? She needs to explain her adultery to your children.
Originally Posted by indarkness
The NC period begins tomorrow. As I said, I'm skeptical it will hold but I haven't considered what to do if it doesn't, short of calling them weak-kneed cowards :-). Need to think more on that.

You do realize this is not a solution, don't you? The solution to an addiction is not a 2 month abstinence, but abstinence for life.
I absolutely do realize that 2 months is nothing and in fact part of me suspects it is a ruse for no reason other than I have lost all trust. My guard is not going to drop and I have no delusions of grandeur.

I'm not ready to tell my children yet. I've seen your posts that suggest this is a good thing and I know Dr. Harley advocates this but that's a big step - one I'm not yet willing to take. Other than that, as I said, the people that can know do know.

My WW is completely isolated. The only people she maintains contact with are myself and the OM. She has been completely shunned and the cracks are starting to show.

I can still hold a decent conversation with the OM. We were good friends prior to this and we can still communicate effectively, for now anyways. If NC is broken, however, then that won't last.

Wife has been asked by doctor to go on bed-rest. She has repeated cramping. Right now she cares enough about the baby, more than the OM, that she is willing to follow doctor's orders. However, she's not going to get much help as all help has abandoned her. And watching a 2-year old on bed rest is not easy.

I'm 6 weeks into this. My energy level is good. I'm out of the poor-me/depression/anger stages and some twisted part of me is enjoying the cat-and-mouse game...so I'm good to go for a while.

But, the pregnancy is a firm deadline. That's why Plan A is relatively short (Jan 3) because if no change by then, then its Plan B - kick her out. Let's see how a new baby affects the fantasy/fog/bubble.

Am I willing to raise OC? Not sure yet. I have gone both ways. My biggest fear is that it will be a constant reminder of "what would have been" and will be a heavy drag on any attempts at healing.
Originally Posted by indarkness
I can still hold a decent conversation with the OM. We were good friends prior to this and we can still communicate effectively, for now anyways. If NC is broken, however, then that won't last.

indarkness, why would you hold a decent converstation with him? He is the enemy of your marriage and the enemy of your children's family. Rather than being "decent" with the fox at the door of the henhouse, how about focusing on causing him as much conflict as possible? Being decent with him while he actively strives to destroy your family makes his job easier. This is not a decent man.

As far as telling your children, let me assure you that no person alive is ever ready to do that, but it is best for all concerned. Kids can deal with the truth, they cannot deal with lies. You are hurting your kids and your wife by not telling them. As long as your kids don't know the truth, your wife is free to manipulate them with her "version." Not to mention the fact that they will be confused about the turmoil in the house and not understand the source. Your wife is free to bring the OM around your kids if they don't understand the OM is their enemy. I would suggest you are making a huge mistake by not telling your kids, indarkness.
[I went and found an old post and edited it to address your thread...I know you aren't really at this issue yet...but it's been brought up and it's something to think about. Sorry it's a bit choppy.]



What State are you in???

If you live in a state with a solid paternity presumption, such as Alabama, California, Minnesota, North Dakota, Florida, Kentucky, Michigan, Pennsylvania or Wyoming, then IF you recover with your wife AND YOU CHOOSE to raise the child as your own...you can essentially lock out the OM. OM will have no standing by law whereupon he can compel a paternity test. The child will be yours and you can successfully BLOCK OM from ever interferring with your family (again, IF you choose this route which IMO is the best route to ensure "NO CONTACT" and thus save your marriage which is the best case scenario for ALL your children).


In these states the law remains very unclear (meaning there is no statutory framework on the books and the case law has not been finally determined):

Missouri, New York, North Carolina, Rhode Island & South Dakota


All other states do not recognize or apply the paternity presumption. In these states, OM's have the right to sue, demand a paternity test and, if established, be given some, or God forbid, all father's rights. Meaning he has to power to forever intrude upon and interfere with your family. Chances are he would only get limited visitation but he'll still be given access to the child and bring evil upon him/her and the entire family. Upside to this is that very few OM's actually sue or seek this. Most are content to disappear (or negotiate away most or all of their rights) and allow the OC to be raised by the BH regardless of what state you are in.

On the other hand, some BH's can handle and feel it's necessary to make the OM step up and accept responsibility (and consequences) for their behavior. They want OM listed as the father and if OM won't admit to such then the BH's and FWW's have the legal right everywhere to sue the OM to prove paternity. If and when the DNA match is established they are willing to give up some father's rights to OM (if he WANTS any rights), but regardless, OM has to then pay child support for the children. Presuming your wife is a stay at home mother that could be a nice chunk of change. In your case, you may feel that YOUR four children shouldn't be cheated out of resources when you have to pay for things for the OC whom is not your BIOLOGICALLY legitimate child. If that's what you want you can FORCE him to take responsibility. Some BH's raising OC's feel it's important that the OM PAY for his crime...financially. To each his own....I, personally, feel OM "fathers" are merely sperm donors that "signed" the adoption certificate the moment they left their seed behind in another man's wife. She's your wife and any child born unto her...is your flesh, regardless of where some of the original biological material came from (for example, if you and her went to a sperm bank because you were rendered infertile, would the resulting child not be yours????).

Of course, these paternity laws are ever changing and the resource I used to list these states is several years old. Also, realize that these laws typically are utilized by married men trying to escape responsibility for children that are not theirs. For example, I believe in Michigan (my state) if a married man finds out 25 months after the child is born that the kid is not his he is still presumed to be the father by law and on the hook regardless for statutorily computed child support. These laws are typically not used by OM's to establish rights as they typically don't want the financial obligation along with severly limited visitation. Further, most of these paternity presumption issues only arises IF the affair ends and you reconcile...once it's over and both parties withdraw...the fog typicallly clears on both sides of the fence, fww's AND OM's. Only a psychotic former OM would SUE for father's rights over an OC (there's a thread here about such a case in KY that is utterly disturbing). They generally realize the damage they have done and either purposely or accidentally (by avoidance) make amends by respecting the wishes (whatever they may be) of one of their biggest victims...the BH, typically NOW raising their biological child. They CHOOSE to stay away and let you live in peace (and, of course, NOT pay).

Mr. Wondering

p.s - A Married FOM with children is MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely to sign off and/or walk away from an OC. His wife will make him. The LAST thing she wants is HER money going to your wife (the OW to her). In fact, you said they were thinking of leaving the state....avoiding child support MAY be one big reason for them to do so. You'll have to hunt him down if YOU choose to make him accept paternity and pay and in many states, you'll have a limited window of opportunity to do so (2 years in Michigan).
indarkness: Are you still checking in? How are things going?

I understand your concerns about telling your children, but they really do need to know. Kids are very perceptive and they probably already know something bad is going on. Better that they know the truth instead of letting their imaginations run wild. Kids are very strong. They can deal with things, but they have to know what it is that they are dealing with.

I actually was told by my bishop not to tell my kids. Even after I discovered that I was pregnant with the OM's baby, my bishop suggested I lie and tell my kids that the baby was my H's. And my kids were teenagers and knew very well that my H had had a vasectomy over 10 years ago! Bishops mean well, but they aren't trained counselors and they don't always understand the best ways to deal with these kinds of situations.

As far as the OC being a constant reminder, I know it might seem that way right now, but it won't always be like that. My H and I are raising my OC. She is an absolute joy! My H loves her as his own. For all intents and purposes, we are a very normal, happy family now. We didn't get here in the most conventional of ways, but we have made it work for us. Neither of us could imagine our lives without our beautiful daughter, and to us, she really is OUR daughter. The OM is not involved in her life at all.

How is your wife doing? How is the pregnancy going? Please check in and let us know how things are going.
>I lie and tell my kids that the baby was my H's

Guess what Writer? The baby IS your husbands. DNA aside, that child is HIS! So you didn't have to lie to your children!

Just because he's a Bishop doesn't mean he's wise on this issue.

ID, the OCs are in our custody now. They are MY kids...*I* am the one who dropped them off their first day, I am the one at doc appointments, I dispell their bickering and teach them to color in the lines.

THAT is what makes a parent. The OCs are INDIVIDUALS, little human beings that are wholly themselves. They are NOT defined by their begetting because it is not something they had a hand in.
Dealan-de: I agree. The baby is my H's. But our Bishop wanted us to lie and not tell the kids anything about the A at all and let everyone believe the baby was my H's biologically as well. I just wasn't comfortable with that. My kids were older, 14-18, and I thought they deserved to know the truth. I also think my OC deserves to know the truth about her biology when she is old enough to understand.
Maybe I'm wrong here, but isn't there some Big Rule that was handed to Moses that mentioned something about lying?

Um...like NOT to do it?

When a man of the cloth - no matter what cloth it is - ENCOURAGES sinnin' and damnin' oneself, well I think it's time to take a good hard look at that man's leadership abilities.

Don't think there is anything in the Good Book...ANY Good Book that says it's okay in CERTAIN situations to fudge a bit.
writer1, yes, I'm still here. My WW doesn't give me much time alone so I can't check in all the time. However, I *really* appreciate your perspective. My wife has changed so very much in the past 7 weeks that it's hard for me to see the good in her. Hearing your perspective helps a lot.

I've read SAA, I've read most of the articles on this site and I figured I was prepared for most anything but it's still shocking how completely evil the Waywards become. Lies, deception, hate, anger - it's all they know at this point. Right now, I cannot trust my wife, AT ALL. It's so depressing.

We are going to see a Marriage Counselor tonight. She agreed but reluctantly. My WW currently has absolutely no plans or interest whatsoever in fixing the marriage - I think she just wants someone to vent to. It'll probably be therapeutic.

She already broke the "NC" briefly. I intercepted some e-mails (she was using my address) before they could be deleted and it sounds like OM is trying to stick to it. They have no idea I know, so I got a completely open view. However, I think they are scheming. There are plans in place that I don't know about yet. She is trying to kick me out of the house, but I won't leave unless I'm dragged out by the police. No way I'm leaving the home open to the OM.

Also, Dealan-de, try to remember that an LDS Bishop is just like any other member of the Church. He has no formal training and is doing his best to protect the welfare of the family and the children especially. I think the knee-jerk reaction of any caring individual is to try to spare the kids the heartache. I get your point about lying but he didn't do it maliciously, I'm sure. But yes, I agree, the kids can take it. I'm just not sure how my WW is going to react...
Exposure makes a WS go wild. Ignore her, change the subject. Exposure is the wind that drives the fog. Exposures need to be done in one large explosion. And without her knowledge so that she cannot twist the facts.

Remember, the kids have been betrayed too. It needs to be explained at their level of understanding.
A question:

Through my WW's actions and the level of exposure she has lost all support from past friends - there is not a single person who is currently supporting her - I know this for a fact. I can tell that this is taking a severe toll on her, particularly with her pseudo-NC in place. She's not too interested in talking to me right now wink.

My WW is a very social person and needs friends. I have considered encouraging her friends to approach her and try to reach out to her but I'm worried that just may, either directly or indirectly, encourage her. Or may just lead to more cake eating.

Is it better to leave my WW alone to suffer for a bit or should I encourage her friends to begin talking to her again?
I'd suggest you get friends that are supportive of the marriage to talk to her. They don't have to be judgemental. They can say, "I want to be your friend. You have made some mistakes, but we all do. What you do from here on is what defines your character." Then, if WW tries to normalize her A, they can say, "I am a friend to you and to your marriage. I will NOT ever be a friend to a homewrecking lowlife like your OM."
Oh, and BTW,
I don't think you've exposed enough. If the M ends, you'll never look back and say, "Gee, I guess I shouldn't have exposed so much." You'll kick yourself for not fighting harder.
I don't know that psychologically it is good for anyone to be completely and totally isolated. I think there is something to be said for "love the sinner, but not the sin." I know it's difficult for you to see right now, but your WW is still the woman that you fell in love with. She may not look or act like that woman much at the moment, but she is still in there. It really helps if you keep in mind that an A is an addiction. It clouds the mind just like any drug and makes clear thinking almost impossible.

Your WW is very confused right now. I wouldn't put too much faith in anything she says at the moment. An A completely messes up your thinking. The wayward has no idea what they really feel or think.

You are at the most difficult stage of all this right now. I don't envy you. It isn't a place I would ever want to return to. But you can make it through this. I can't guarantee how things will work out for you, but I can share what happened with me and my M. I was certain that I could never love my H again. I was certain that I wanted to end my M and be with the OM. I was certain that I was in love with the OM. None of this was clear, realistic, logical thinking, but I couldn't see that at the time. My love for the OM felt real, and my feelings for my H, who I had once loved very much, were muted and very far away.

It took a long time for me to slowly realize what was happening. We didn't know anything about MB at the time, but my H essentially instigated a Plan A without realizing it. He just determined to love me no matter what. Even when I told him I didn't have any feelings for him anymore and wanted a D, he still loved me. He never stopped, and now, I am so glad that he didn't. I eventually realized how much my H loved me (something I didn't truly believe before) and, for me, that changed everything. I finally realized that I had something in my M worth saving.

It hasn't been an easy road, but it does get easier everyday. For now, I would advise you to stick with Plan A for as long as you can. Meet your WW's EN's. Tell her you love her, even though it might seem as though she doesn't want to hear it. Stay centered and focused. Don't forget to take care of yourself and children too. I know it's scary, but I would seriously consider telling your children as soon as possible, in terms that they can understand. "Mommy is making some bad choices. That doesn't make her a bad person, but she is making bad decisions right now. Mommy has a boyfriend, and married people aren't supposed to have boyfriends or girlfriends." They likely already know that something very bad is happening in their family, and it will be so much easier for them to deal with it if they know what that bad thing is.

And no, I don't think my bishop acted maliciously in any way. I love my bishop very much. He has stood by me through a lot of things, and I am very grateful for that. Bishops are only human, and they do the best they can. They don't have any specialized training in counseling these types of situations, so I'm sure he was simply offering the best advice that he could. In the end, I knew that honesty was the best option. It was the most difficult thing I ever had to do, telling my kids about my A. It helped that my H and I had already decided to try and save our M and that we told them together.

I will keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers. Let us know how things are going.
writer1:

So at what point did you decide you wanted to fix the M? Did you initiate NC or did the A just die a natural death? Sorry if I'm being intrusive, I don't know your story.

Right now, I just don't see my WW voluntarily starting NC or doing anything other than D. She's threatened it several times but has made no motions in that direction. She's completely in the "we're soul mates and this is so right" mode. Bah - it's like watching two confused teenagers.

As I said in a previous post, I've got a sufficient supply of energy and patience, at least right now, that I feel like I can get through at least a 3-month Plan A. But I've told her that if we are married at the time the baby is born that I have full custody (we're in CA). This might push her into D, I don't know. Still, in CA, divorce is, at a minimum, a 6-month process. She's due sometime in June 2010, but she's always early, so probably May. If she's going to file for D in time to avoid the complexities of custody, she's going to have to do it soon.

She's going to fight me to the death about telling the kids...
My A lasted 6 months. It was mostly long-distance. I met OM at a residency for my MFA program. We are both writers. We would spend 2 weeks every 6 months on campus at our college in Vermont. We were friends for a year before our A began. It began during a summer residency, continued long distance over the next 6 months, and resumed at the next winter residency. When I went to the winter residency, I was already having serious doubts about continuing the A. I went to the residency determined not to rekindle the A, since at that point, I was leaning toward working on my M. However, I was weak and caved in to the temptation. In hindsight, I realize now that going back for that residency in such an emotionally fragile state was the worst thing I ever could have done.

When I returned from the residency, I told OM that I wanted to focus on my M. Two weeks later, I found out I was pregnant. My H knew about the A from the very beginning. I told him the day after it started, so he suffered through my pendulum of emotions for the entire 6 months I was involved in the A. When I told him I was pregnant, he immediately said that he still wanted to work on our M and that he wanted to raise the baby as his. My H is a very incredible man. I don't think a lot of men would have done what he did.

I stayed in contact (long distance, since he lives in New Hampshire and I live in CA) until my OC was 11 months old. I thought I had no choice, since we had a child together. At first, OM wanted to play a small role in OC's life. I would send him email updates about my prenatal visits, and later the baby's checkups. He has never seen her. In spite of his initial desire to be a part of her life, I put my H's name on the birth certificate and gave her my H's last name. Eventually, OM decided he did not want to be a part of OC's life. We have been completely NC since the beginning of September.

Lots of waywards threaten D. It is classic wayward behavior. So is taking absolutely no action towards actually getting a D. I threatened D many times. I never filed. I never even contacted a lawyer. I wouldn't worry about the threats too much. If she was serious, she would do something about it. The fact that she hasn't is a good sign.

I'm glad you are in my state, because I know something about the paternity laws here because of what we went through. In CA, the H is presumed to be the father of any child conceived during the M. That means that, according to CA state law, you are already the presumed father of your wife's OC. You were married when the child was conceived, so for all intents and purposes, you are that baby's father in every legal sense of the word. The only way this could change is if a paternity test were performed. If the OM wants a paternity test, he would have to petition the court for one and you could fight it. You would very likely win, especially if your WW snaps out of her fog and decides that she wants to save her M. If both you and your wife decide to stay together and raise this child as your own, there will likely be very little the OM will be able to do about it.

As far as telling the kids, if your wife isn't onboard, tell them yourself. There's nothing like the slap-in-the-face of a little child asking mommy why she's hurting daddy by dating another man to jerk her back into reality. The more people you expose to, the more the fluffy fantasy world your WW is living in will be blown to pieces. This might be a very important step in helping your WW to realize that she isn't merely going to be able to D you and M OM and live happily ever after. She needs to realize that none of the people who care about her and love her - her children, her family, her friends - will ever accept her relationship with the OM. Since a pregnancy is involved, the sooner this A blows up in her face, the better. You and your WW will be on much stronger ground legally with this child the sooner the both of you get on the same page regarding the direction of your M.
I'm wondering... Does your WW know about MB? Would she be willing to come on here? Has she read any of Dr. Harley's books? I think "Surviving an Affair" would be especially helpful. I was amazed by how textbook my A was when I read the stories in SAA. Before that, I thought my relationship with the OM was so different, so much more 'special' than the typical A. Turns out, I was just like every other foggy wayward. The book was a real eye-opener for me.
She is not aware of MB. I was thinking of having her just read the opening story of SAA since it is *so* much like her affair, minus the pregnancy (which of course is not a minor detail). Don't know if she will, however. She's a stubborn beast.

So, unfortunately, unlike your situation, the OM is quite near which makes NC difficult. She has not had any "awakening" of any kind and is thoroughly convinced that she and the OM are "soul mates" and that what they are doing is absolutely the right thing. The OM claims he has "prayed about it and had confirmation that he's on the right path" - what a crock. The spirit is gone, all he feels are his own feelings. Very frustrating. I'm praying for an Alma the Younger moment...
Originally Posted by indarkness
She is not aware of MB. I was thinking of having her just read the opening story of SAA since it is *so* much like her affair, minus the pregnancy (which of course is not a minor detail). Don't know if she will, however. She's a stubborn beast.

So, unfortunately, unlike your situation, the OM is quite near which makes NC difficult. She has not had any "awakening" of any kind and is thoroughly convinced that she and the OM are "soul mates" and that what they are doing is absolutely the right thing. The OM claims he has "prayed about it and had confirmation that he's on the right path" - what a crock. The spirit is gone, all he feels are his own feelings. Very frustrating. I'm praying for an Alma the Younger moment...

Hi indarkness,
Most here won't understand the BOM quotes but as I'm in SLC I do.
Sorry you are here and let me know if I can help anyway.
Even if you could get her to read the opening story of SAA, that might help. I was surprised how much of myself I saw in that story.

The OM prayed about it and received confirmation that he was doing the right thing? Hmmm.... I'd have to wonder who he is praying to and receiving confirmation from? It certainly couldn't be the God of any Christian religion. I don't recall the Bible or any of the other scriptures containing any stories where A was condoned. This just goes to show how deeply foggy and messed up wayward thinking can become.

I don't know how others handle NC when they live close to the AP. I have heard that moving is often recommended. If your M has any chance at all of surviving, I would imagine that a move would be necessary, especially if the OM is in your ward.

How long has your WW's A been going on? I didn't get pregnant until 6 mos. into my A, so by then, the A was already beginning to die a natural death. Almost all A's eventually die. The timeline seems to vary. I've heard anywhere from 6 mos. to 2 years. I'm glad mine was on the shorter side. I don't think I could have survived 2 years of that.

Also, I don't recall if you said whether or not the OM is married. If he is, does OM's wife and/or children know about the A? What is the status of his M?
Good...California...a solid paternity presumption state.

As far as bringing your wife here...I wouldn't until she's actually in "no contact". You need this place to strategize and get support in private.

As an alternative, I often recommend going to the following link for the free edocument "31 Reasons to Stop an Affair". I further recommend that you print the document and just leave it laying around for your WW to find and read on her own. WW's do not take kindly to being taught by their BH's. If you hand it to her as an assignment of sorts, she WON'T read it past the first sentence. However, if she just finds the document and thinks you've read it (which I recommend you do and even place a few notes and scribbles around the document for your wife's benefit to make it clear you've read it and further entice her to read it) she'll read it in an attempt to figure out what "crap" you are reading and to figure out what your comments in the margins relate to. She likely won't agree with the document but she can't "unplant" the seeds once they are absorbed. Planting seeds is the most you can hope to accomplish at this point.

Here's the link - 31 Reasons to Stop an Affair

As an added bonus...you'll be throwing her off the MB trial should she snoop around to figure out where you are reading and, perhaps, posting about the situation. Because the document is from another infidelity website she'll be over there looking for you and not here.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - You don't have to get her agreement to expose to the kids...just do it and then mildly apologize for it after the fact. As in "ooops, my bad". Once the cats out of the bag she can't put it back in. The sooner you do this the better. Also beware of common strategies WW's use to FORCE men out the home. Restraining orders and claims of abuse are a common tactic of the desperate WW. Having a recorder handy can be a beneficial tool to disprove fictional abuse stories. But regardless, be careful and whatever you do ... respect the cops if they are ever to appear at your doorstep. If you don't respect the cops...the courts will never respect you as they are on the same team.
You don't need WW permission to expose the affair and OC to the kids.

Have you exposed WW parents and her siblings?
The A has been going on for about 10 weeks now and she is about 7 weeks pregnant.

OM was married, OMW definitely knows and is moving w/kids to Utah. Don't know if OM is going to allow that or not. For now, says he will allow it but WW says he is ready to file for legal separation, possibly to get kids back??? Don't know.

WW parents know and are on my side, same with her siblings. Basically, the only people who don't know are people that wouldn't care, so no point in exposing to them. Oh, and my kids. Yes, I know, they need to know - yikes, that's scary.

WW and OM have agreed to take 2-month "break". Primary reason, they claim, is obedience to bishop, counselor, stake president, etc. WW doesn't care and would run away in a heartbeat but seems to be going along with it for OM sake. I do not expect either to get through it successfully, particular with OM wife going to Utah.

You must tell your kids the truth. Kids can handle the truth. They need to know that the OM is an enemy. And, that affairs a wrong.
NC is crucial. If you really can get your WW to have NC with the OM for 2 months, I think things will become so much clearer for her. I know it seems impossible to establish NC. If she still cares about the church, you might be able to use that to get her to stick to NC.

For the next 2 months, Plan A the heck out of her. Meet all of her EN's. Show her how much you love her and care about her. Let her know what she's going to be giving up if she chooses to end the M.

And yes, tell your kids as soon as possible. I guarantee this will become very real for her as soon as she realizes that she has to answer to her children. She's going to see the damage that she has done to them and it will hit her hard. I know it seems scary, but you have to do it, for their sake and for the sake of your M.

I think you also need to start asking yourself some tough questions. Do you want to save your M? If your WW does decide to stay and work on your M, can you accept the OC into your life? Only you can answer these questions. Some people can love and accept an OC and some cannot. Have you checked out the section on this site dealing with Pregnancy and Children? My complete story used to be on there, but the site went down a few weeks ago, and everything was lost. There are some other people over there though who have been dealing with what you are now for a long time. I'm sure they would be able to offer some wonderful advice and insight.
Quick Update:

Last night WW and I went to see Marriage Counselor (MC??) for the first time. Ride down was rough. WW was trying to convince me that divorce is best, how much I screwed up, she's the "primary caregiver" (whatever that means...sounds like an HMO term to me) and thus gets all custody, I can visit when I want, we need to move because she has been alienated, on and on. Somehow I stayed calm enough not to blow up or say much of anything - stuck to Plan A.

Then when we got in to see MC, got the whole thing dumped again, which was expected. But then after WW was finished venting, MC stepped in with some AWESOME insights which really got my wife's attention. The first was that MC confirmed CA custody situation regarding OC - WW might have thought I was lying but this confirmed I wasn't. Secondly, MC spent a few minutes talking about the psychological and physical affects of an affair (why sex is better, how everything is rose-colored, etc.), basically echoing lots of what I already knew but didn't bring up with WW. I think this was an eye-opener for my wife because in her mind, everything was "true love" and I think seeds of doubt may have been planted.

The ride home was polar opposite of ride down. Nothing about divorce, mostly small talk, laughter. No confrontation. And right before we went to bed, she told me she was sorry and that if we had gone to see the counselor in June (2 mos before A), none of this would have happened. Which is funny because while talking to MC, WW said that her relationship with OM had germinated "a long time ago".

Anyways, as painful as the beginning was, the end of the night was not too bad. I'm not letting my guard down because last night she e-mailed OM again and this time got response from him. Not sure what it said yet, don't have access to that account - yet. Need to get a keylogger on my PC. WW has zero self-control right now.
You need to stay in close contact with the OM's wife. Even if she's planning on divorcing, she can't be happy with him and this whole OC situation.
How has her pregnancy been doing lately? You said there was some cramping and bed rest. You know why I'm asking.
Do the kids know mommy is pregnant yet?
No cramping or spotting lately but she's taking it very easy. Given past history, things seem to be progressing per a healthy pregnancy.

No, the kids don't know yet, but obviously, that's going to be tough to hide soon. She shows early in a pregnancy.
Originally Posted by imanotherone
You need to stay in close contact with the OM's wife. Even if she's planning on divorcing, she can't be happy with him and this whole OC situation.
How has her pregnancy been doing lately? You said there was some cramping and bed rest. You know why I'm asking.

Why are you asking? I certainly hope it isn't the reason I suspect. This is a life we're talking about here. I certainly hope everyone keeps that in mind. This tiny human being did absolutely nothing wrong. You know what my OM used as an excuse to not tell his daughters about the baby? That I might have a miscarriage. That is the most unbelievably horrible thing to say to a pregnant woman. And, our OC is 13 months old now (well past the miscarriage faze, I am sure) and he never did tell anyone in his family that she exists. I've put it behind me now and we are completely NC and he has no part in our OC's life, but it took a long time for me to come to terms with how callously he viewed a child that I love with all my heart. To his credit, my H never said or did anything that led me to believe he would be glad or relieved if I lost the baby. If he had, I don't think I would have stayed in my M. I don't think I could raise a child with someone who had so little regard for the value of that baby's life.

indarkness: I'm glad the meeting with the MC went well. Are you seeing someone through LDS social services? We found one counselor through them who was very helpful to us in the early stages of our recovery. Thanks for the update. Hang in there.
Have YOU given any thoughts about what you'd like to see regarding the baby?
BTW: YOUR thoughts and feelings about this child are JUST as important as your WWs.

I know I felt shoved aside A LOT when it came to the OCs - UNTIL I made it clear that my opinion holds just as much water as everyone else's did.

This child is a sibling to your COM....so what you think and do and say regarding this issue IS important.
Writer- I'm asking because the original poster said his wife had a history of miscarriages and had some issues earlier this week. Whether you take that to mean that I'm hoping this pregnancy doesn't reach term really doesn't matter. It's not my marriage. BUT if the pregnancy is in jeopardy, maybe we should wait and see how things progress before we go too far into this whole custody situation. In the wife's eyes, taking about custody might press her into a divorce to avoid the California law.
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Also, Writer, I'm more concerned with the children that this couple already has brought into the world at the moment. Sorry if that seems harsh, but I'm entitled to my opinion, just as you are entitled to yours. Feel free to start a new thread if you want, because I don't think it's an appropriate thread jack.
I'll admit that when I first found out about the pregnancy, the selfish side of me hoped for a miscarriage. It was cruel and I hated myself for thinking it. But one night, we were saying prayers together and I asked that both my WW and the baby be blessed. That first time was hard but once I did that, i felt OK, that no matter what, whether the OC ultimately made it to term or not, that things would work out, somehow. Since then, I've been, I think, very supportive, particularly given the situation.

I think I would be able to raise the OC. Somebody else posted it, but a father is not the guy who did the deed. The father is the guy who's changing diapers, providing support, cleaning up - all of that. I think it would be pretty vindictive against this child to do otherwise.

I don't think my WW has yet considered the consequences of bringing a child into the world this way - particularly given our religious views. This child is the very essence of innocence and already part of its eternal inheritance has been robbed.

Yes, the counselor is through LDS Family Services - she was very professional. We both liked her a lot.
>The father is the guy who's changing diapers, providing support, cleaning up - all of that.

That would be me who brought it up, the diaper changer, snot wiper extraordinaire.

>I think I would be able to raise the OC.

It's far easier than you think. It's even easier when the OP drops out of sight.
Originally Posted by imanotherone
Writer- I'm asking because the original poster said his wife had a history of miscarriages and had some issues earlier this week. Whether you take that to mean that I'm hoping this pregnancy doesn't reach term really doesn't matter. It's not my marriage. BUT if the pregnancy is in jeopardy, maybe we should wait and see how things progress before we go too far into this whole custody situation. In the wife's eyes, taking about custody might press her into a divorce to avoid the California law.
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Also, Writer, I'm more concerned with the children that this couple already has brought into the world at the moment. Sorry if that seems harsh, but I'm entitled to my opinion, just as you are entitled to yours. Feel free to start a new thread if you want, because I don't think it's an appropriate thread jack.

I don't see how my reply qualifies as a thread jack, and yes, you are entitled to your opinion. However, I might have a better understanding of the OP's religious beliefs, since we belong to the same church, a church that places a great deal of value on all human life. And, in California, the law recognizes the H of any woman who becomes pregnant as the legal father of that child. She was married to the OP when the baby was conceived, so legally, CA views that baby as his already. A D after conception wouldn't change that. Only a paternity test could do that, and the H would have to agree to that, or the OM would have to petition the court for one against the H's wishes. It isn't a given that such a request would be honored either.

indarkness: I do think it is important for you to figure out how you feel about this child and if you will be able to raise this baby. Like I said before, that's a question only you can answer. I absolutely believe that DNA does not make a parent. Perhaps this was something my H and I had a relatively easy time with, because neither of us were raised by our biological fathers. I was raised by a single mother and my H was raised by his step-father, who eventually adopted him.
interesting, I had assumed the law said custody determined by H at the time of birth, but it's the H at the time of conception???
I think custody is based on time of birth, not conception. Maybe Mr. Wondering can weigh in. You can't even verify time of conception, legally speaking. THAT is what I'm concerned about. You push the legal side too much and the WW might flee just so she can establish the paternity the way she wants to.
Writer, it's a big difference between raising a step child and raising an OC, as you know. These are issues not to be taken lightly. And, all respect to your understanding of your particular religion, each of us is a different human being with different takes on things. That's all I'm trying to say. If you think I'm being defensive, it's because you were on the offensive with me. Let's leave it at that.
Everytime OM and WW break NC, you need to alert OMW.
Originally Posted by imanotherone
I think custody is based on time of birth, not conception. Maybe Mr. Wondering can weigh in. You can't even verify time of conception, legally speaking. THAT is what I'm concerned about. You push the legal side too much and the WW might flee just so she can establish the paternity the way she wants to.
Writer, it's a big difference between raising a step child and raising an OC, as you know. These are issues not to be taken lightly. And, all respect to your understanding of your particular religion, each of us is a different human being with different takes on things. That's all I'm trying to say. If you think I'm being defensive, it's because you were on the offensive with me. Let's leave it at that.

This has been discuss recently on Sharpie's thread too. Here's a link to the CA Family Court self help site re: paternity.

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/family/parentage/intro.htm

Indarkness really needs to talk to an attorney regarding this issue to see what his options are. In most states, a stay will be put on the divorce if the wife is pregnant at the time the divorce is filed.

Don't underestimate the evilness of waywards - your WW and OM may already know what the law is and plan to get you big time on this. One thing to think about, what if you and the WW decide to keep the baby, work on reconcilliation, then a few months after the birth of the child she decides to leave for the OM anyways? You could be paying child support to your exWW for the OM's child. Never underestimate the wickedness of waywards. You could be paying your WW to support another man's child for 18 years.

As I see it the options are:

1. File the necessary paperwork to have OM on the birth certificate.
This option gives the OM all the rights of a normal father as well as all the power. He would be hit with child support as well have visitation rights to the child. Or, he could petition for custody and the risk is you pay him child support. Or, the OM may end up being a deadbeat dad who wants nothing to do with the kid. If you reconcille, the OM will always be in the picture. If you don't reconcille, this is the best option to protect the BH.

2. Attempt to reconcille and listed as the father on the birth certificate
I hear the care, nurturing, changing diapers is what makes the father. However, the BH did not ask for this. It was forced on him. In the case of a step raising the kids, the step parent can make the decision whether they want to raise the step kids prior to getting married. A WW pregnant with the OC is by default a foggy WW. Sometimes it take MONTHS for the fog to disapate. True recovery takes longer than a pregnancy so the OC would be born to a BH and WW who are in the beginning stages of recovery. What if it's a false reconcilliation? The BH could now be on the hook to pay child support to the exWW and OM to raise the OM's child! puke Coming from someone who had to pay the mortgage on the maritial home while OM lived there rent free with WW, this scenario would make me want to skip town to a non-extradition country.

3. Adoption
My sister and I were both adopted. My folks told me once I could understand the concept that I was adopted. I've never had any inclination to find my bio parents. It's never really affected who I am. My sister in her late 20's found her bio mom. She has a relationship with her bio family - she usually visits once a year now and it's worked out really well for her. My mother wrote a really heartfelt letter to bio mom a couple of years ago explaining that her decision to give up my sister was the most selfless action a person can do because of how much happiness it brought my parents. My parents truely feel my sister's bio mom was an angel from heaven. Tell you what though, it's kind of freaky seeing pictures of my sister next to her bio mom since they look exactly the same!

4. Abortion
This option I believe is beyond the scope of this board and I would appreciate it if folks would be respectful of each other's views of this highly personal and controversial topic.

Originally Posted by PSUBIKER
Originally Posted by imanotherone
I think custody is based on time of birth, not conception. Maybe Mr. Wondering can weigh in. You can't even verify time of conception, legally speaking. THAT is what I'm concerned about. You push the legal side too much and the WW might flee just so she can establish the paternity the way she wants to.
Writer, it's a big difference between raising a step child and raising an OC, as you know. These are issues not to be taken lightly. And, all respect to your understanding of your particular religion, each of us is a different human being with different takes on things. That's all I'm trying to say. If you think I'm being defensive, it's because you were on the offensive with me. Let's leave it at that.

This has been discuss recently on Sharpie's thread too. Here's a link to the CA Family Court self help site re: paternity.

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/family/parentage/intro.htm

Indarkness really needs to talk to an attorney regarding this issue to see what his options are. In most states, a stay will be put on the divorce if the wife is pregnant at the time the divorce is filed.

Don't underestimate the evilness of waywards - your WW and OM may already know what the law is and plan to get you big time on this. One thing to think about, what if you and the WW decide to keep the baby, work on reconcilliation, then a few months after the birth of the child she decides to leave for the OM anyways? You could be paying child support to your exWW for the OM's child. Never underestimate the wickedness of waywards. You could be paying your WW to support another man's child for 18 years.

As I see it the options are:

1. File the necessary paperwork to have OM on the birth certificate.
This option gives the OM all the rights of a normal father as well as all the power. He would be hit with child support as well have visitation rights to the child. Or, he could petition for custody and the risk is you pay him child support. Or, the OM may end up being a deadbeat dad who wants nothing to do with the kid. If you reconcille, the OM will always be in the picture. If you don't reconcille, this is the best option to protect the BH.

2. Attempt to reconcille and listed as the father on the birth certificate
I hear the care, nurturing, changing diapers is what makes the father. However, the BH did not ask for this. It was forced on him. In the case of a step raising the kids, the step parent can make the decision whether they want to raise the step kids prior to getting married. A WW pregnant with the OC is by default a foggy WW. Sometimes it take MONTHS for the fog to disapate. True recovery takes longer than a pregnancy so the OC would be born to a BH and WW who are in the beginning stages of recovery. What if it's a false reconcilliation? The BH could now be on the hook to pay child support to the exWW and OM to raise the OM's child! puke Coming from someone who had to pay the mortgage on the maritial home while OM lived there rent free with WW, this scenario would make me want to skip town to a non-extradition country.

3. Adoption
My sister and I were both adopted. My folks told me once I could understand the concept that I was adopted. I've never had any inclination to find my bio parents. It's never really affected who I am. My sister in her late 20's found her bio mom. She has a relationship with her bio family - she usually visits once a year now and it's worked out really well for her. My mother wrote a really heartfelt letter to bio mom a couple of years ago explaining that her decision to give up my sister was the most selfless action a person can do because of how much happiness it brought my parents. My parents truely feel my sister's bio mom was an angel from heaven. Tell you what though, it's kind of freaky seeing pictures of my sister next to her bio mom since they look exactly the same!

4. Abortion
This option I believe is beyond the scope of this board and I would appreciate it if folks would be respectful of each other's views of this highly personal and controversial topic.

I would like to add that there is some protection built in to the problems listed in scenario #2. In CA, at least, the presumed father has 2 years following the birth of the child to challenge paternity of said child in a court of law. If the WW did decide to leave after the child was born, he would have 2 years to challenge paternity, even if indarkness does put his name on the birth certificate. Two years gives him a lot more time than the 9 months of a pregnancy to figure out the direction that his marriage seems to be going in.

Option #1 is a really bad idea if the OP and his WW decide to work on their M, since it essentially hands the OM a pass to interfere in their lives and their family for the next 18 years.

Option #3 is definitely a viable option, but it may be difficult to get his WW to agree. It was something my H and I carefully considered and ultimately decided against.

I'm not sure if I would advise going to an attorney yet. It might push the WW over the edge if she finds out. If it is the goal for indarkness to save his M, and that seems to be what he wants, going to an attorney while his WW is still sitting on the fence might very well push her over to the other side.
I am also adopted, and I am the product of an affair, though I didn't post to recommend adoption. I have a great life and great parents; it's just that most people don't go that route anymore.

What I wanted to address was the idea of raising a child that is not "yours." My situation is different, and I understand that. But - for a child - to be seen as "some other man's child" - would have to be damaging. I never thought or was told that my parents weren't my reall parents. I did know I was adopted from a very young age, but my dad and mom are my dad and mom. I also have contact with my bio families, but they are not my parents. My parents raised me.

Like I said, I get that it is different. But when decisions regarding birth certificates and realtionships, and thus are discussed, you have to think that at some point down the road, a child is going to know about that. When he/she gets her/his driver's permit, they'll have to see that certificate, for example. This isn't just about financial protection. It's about another person's life and psyche. Just a thought.
> "some other man's child"

My children are not some other woman's children. They are mine, no matter what begetting got them here.

My dad raised some other man's children and he was

THE

BEST

DAD

EVER.
I agree with Dealan-de. That's how my H and I see it. I use the term OC on here, for clarification, but that isn't how we think about our daughter. She is OUR daughter, pure and simple. I know that my H doesn't think about her as "some other man's child," because she isn't. She is his child, in absolutely ever except for the DNA. He was there for my ultrasounds, he cut the cord when she was born, he stayed up with her nights when she was a newborn. He loves her and I love her and we are a family.

And, my H did have a choice in this. He could have walked away. He could have decided that this wasn't what he wanted. I will be forever grateful that he didn't, but he certainly could have.
Adoption is extremely unlikely - WW has made that clear. Briefly spoke to an attorney 4 weeks back or so but didn't get much info on paternity other than I would be the legal father and if WW left, I would be liable for child support.

What a mess...
Originally Posted by indarkness
What a mess...


Finally, something we can all agree on!

CA paternity law will probably work more in your favor if your WW decides to stay and work on the M.

Hang in there and don't give up hope. Your WW is probably going to say a lot of things that make the situation sound hopeless. I know I did. A lot of it is justification to help ease the guilt. I told my H that I wanted a D, so in my eyes, I wasn't really having an A anymore, because I had essentially "ended" my M by announcing my intentions. That way, I was free to carry on with a relationship with the OM, because my M was "over." It is all very messed up and makes absolutely no sense. Of course, it made sense to me at the time. The guilt that a wayward experiences can be crippling, and they will do almost anything to ease those guilty feelings - anything except for give up the AP, of course. The addiction is far too strong to even consider that.

Don't listen too much to anything that comes out of your WW's mouth right now. It's likely to be very foggy. When she snaps out of this, the things she's saying now will likely be just as horrifying to her as they are to you.

I hope things work out for you. If you stick to Plan A for the time being, at least you'll know that you did everything you could to save your family, no matter how things turn out.
Silly WW keeps breaking NC. Pathetic, can't go more than a day without contact. I may have to get more direct - i.e. blocking numbers on the phone, etc. Sigh...

writer1 - you said that I should try to meet WW ENs. How can I do that when everything she does suggests absolute contempt for me? SAA says something along the lines of try to meet ENs but while C is still ongoing its likely to be difficult and I should not expend an exhorbitant amount of time trying. That doesn't mean I turn into a jerk or anything, just not try to go overboard on meeting ENs that can't possibly be met right now.
It is difficult to meet EN's while the A is still ongoing. I suspect it is often quite impossible, since most of your efforts to do so will likely be met with anger and hostility. It seems as though, the nicer my H was to me, the more angry I became. I think this was likely because, when he was kind and understanding, my feelings of guilt skyrocketed.

Right now, probably the best you can do is to try to avoid LB's by not having angry outbursts or making too many demands. Her contempt is a protective measure. It protects your WW from her own guilt. It has very little to do with anything you say or do. That doesn't make it any easier to deal with, but hopefully it will help if you keep that in mind. Yes, she is going to reject most of your attempts to meet her EN's.

It is going to be very difficult for your WW to see things clearly until NC is established. I realize there isn't much you can do about that, at the moment. Even after I "ended" my A and decided to work on my M, I erroneously convinced myself that I had a moral obligation to stay in contact with the OM because of the baby. I seriously hindered the R of my M, though I didn't know it at the time. I didn't see it as continuing the A, since I was no longer romantically involved with the OM but merely communicating with him about the baby. It wasn't until we established complete NC that the fog totally disappeared and I was finally able to see things clearly. That was only 2 mos. ago. My M has been so much better since then, but it took a very long time for my H and I to get there.
Originally Posted by indarkness
Silly WW keeps breaking NC. Pathetic, can't go more than a day without contact. I may have to get more direct - i.e. blocking numbers on the phone, etc. Sigh...

If you can do it to prevent contact, then do it. Your WW is an addict, so what you are doing is rooting around her known stashes to keep her from using again. It's the first thing they do when someone gets checked into rehab.

My WW resorted to buying a $5 calling card and calling OM from a payphone. When I found the first calling card in her purse, she bought another one, called OM from a payphone again, but ditched the calling card once she was done. I still caught her because I was monitoring her bank account and found a suspicious $5.00 charge from the gas station that I knew was for a calling card. I confronted her, and she gave up trying to sneak around me. If they can think they can get around NC, they will try. You are dealing with an addict. You need to treat her as such.
You CAN try to monopolize her time as best you can.

Invite people over so she has to entertain with you. Schedule counseling sessions (even though most won't be that productive while she's still in contact). Family dinners at home or out. Things she really has to be present at and can't escape into another room and hop on the phone/computer.

Contemporaneously, on the down-low behind the scenes you MAY want to start reading up and preparing for the worst case scenario....a child custody fight.

One BIG factor in your favor is that only YOU remain a member of your chosen church. Most courts weigh continuation of the families chosen religious upbringing heavily. At the very least, you'll have an argument enabling you to see and take your kids to church EVERY SUNDAY (or do you Smither's go Saturday?). Thus...it remains important that you continue taking the kids to church and MAYBE even signing them up for so weeknight extracircular activities at the church as YOU are the only one allowed there (and that would continue after any divorce).

Not only is being prepared smart (protecting your rights and getting you the best deal should you divorce) it ALSO adds another consequence upon your WW and the more you accumulate the more likely she (or OM) is to end the affair.

Now that I mentioned it...don't forget to battle this thing some on OM's side of the fence. Keep the pressure on HIM as probably 8 out of 10 or 9 out of 10 times these affairs end it's the MAN that gets fed up with the consequences and pulls the plug. IF OM is divorcing...he's about to become a single man. There's a world of uncomplicated trouble free women available to him. He MAY just dump her to pursue other interests. The more trouble and difficult you make this FOR HIM...the sooner he jumps ship. Be creative. Remember everything you say about OM to your WW will be nearly immediately related to OM. The feed off this drama...however, you can take advantage of this to send along MISINFORMATION. I used this knowledge to freak out OM. I knew the OM in our situation didn't make much money, lived with his parents and paid child support...so I casually told my wife how much money she spent the last year and EXAGGERATED it by leaps and bounds. Sure enough...she told him and I KNOW his little head was spinning wondering how he could ever afford to REALLY be with my wife. Our OM was also told by my wife about my golden gloves boxing career...with large embellishments again. Boy did OM's ears perk up....as OM's are all to aware they DESERVE a good beating and if you can instill even a little fear it's just one more thing pushing them to throw in the towel. My mother in law confronted OM and made him think my wife COULD BE mentally ill and she also implied that my family is connected (greek mafia) and he'd likely get hurt.

You may have a more difficult time since you and OM were friends at one time. But you never know....again, be creative.

Mr. Wondering
Is there a forum on snooping tools? Specifically, I'm looking for a Windows keylogger. My WW has one e-mail address that I haven't cracked yet...
MrWondering - I like your thinking. Greek mafia...lol!!! I posted earlier that I take some pleasure out of this game. Not much, I mean, it's extremely serious and I recognize what I'm fighting for, but it's a battle of wits and I don't get to do that too often...

About church - its pretty involved. 3 hours on Sundays. At least one hour during the week for multiple kids. Other events, etc.

BTW, what legal means does she have of getting me out of the house? She's asked me to leave only once but it completely lacked any teeth, I just ignored her. I just want to be prepared. Right now, knowledge is power.
I don't think she can force you out of the house unless she tells some blatant lies. Such as, she could call the police and falsely accuse you of abuse, or some other such underhanded tactic. Without resorting to things like that, I don't see how she could make you leave. It's your house too.

I presume you have a job and your WW stays home with the kids. MrWondering had some great ideas. I was a stay-at-home-mom when I had my A. My H earned all of the money. Things really started to get real when OM filed for a D and had to pay well over 1/3 of his income in child support. I really started to doubt his ability to support me and the baby. He wanted to get married, or so he said, but he made it very clear that I would have to work full-time to make that happen. He could barely support himself in a rented room on what little income he had left. The A started to look much less glamorous once I realized that I would have to find a full-time job, while pregnant, and largely support myself, the baby, OM, and my other kids. Blowing the fantasy out of the water is imperative.
By the way, under no circumstances should you voluntarily move out of your home. That could be seen as abandonment by a court. I told my H he would have to move out of the home many times, since our M was "over" and all, and I was going to marry OM. He just ignored me, or agreed that, yeah, sometime, he would have to move out, but he never did anything about it. I didn't either.

It's a very good sign that your WW isn't taking any steps to remove you from the home or moving forward with D papers. It proves that she isn't anywhere near as serious about ending this M as she claims to be.
Originally Posted by indarkness
About church - its pretty involved. 3 hours on Sundays. At least one hour during the week for multiple kids. Other events, etc.

Good. Now is not the time to take a step back on seeing that their religious educations are followed through with. Your wife likely doesn't want to go anywhere near the temple and will discourage taking them so YOU likely need to step up in her place (and it will bode well for you in any custody dispute)

Originally Posted by indarkness
BTW, what legal means does she have of getting me out of the house? She's asked me to leave only once but it completely lacked any teeth, I just ignored her. I just want to be prepared. Right now, knowledge is power.

I tried doing a little research by googling "motion for exclusive use of marital residence" but I now think in California it's a "show cause motion". I didn't find much other than attorney's willing to take on such fights and petition for the same. Generally, it appears absent a restraining order or other FACTORS demonstrating it's in the children's best interest in high conflict divorce situations it's unlikely she (or you) can get the other out. I tried to find out what those "other factors" were in California but found nothing. So I'm left to speculate that it's likely things like substance abuse problems, history of violence (just not documented spousal or child abuse), criminal record, documented mental conditions...stuff like that. In conclusion, if she wants you out...she'll have get you to agree to it OR file a restraining order based upon a complete or mini-fabrication (for example, one BH here insisted his wife get off the home phone with OM and take such conversations outside of the marital home...he kind of stood over her making such demand and the WW "claimed" he was blocking her exit from the room (false imprisonment), yelling at her (disturbing the peace and disturbing the children) and intimidating her (assualt)) My suggestion is that you be sure to have your snooping in order. She'll have to figure out that a restraining order is the only way and perhaps PLOT with OM on how to accomplish provoking an incident. Such PLOT would be a wonderful defense and would likely aid any custody battle that may ensue.

Mr. Wondering
ID - you may want to look up a thread started by me in the Pregnancy board, as I have been told by my mother that I am a child of an affair.

I'll let you click on my user name, and do the searching if you'd like.

What you need to know the most from this OC POV:

The man who cheated with my mother IS NOT MY FATHER. Not in my eyes. Not in God's eyes. He is an IMPOSTER in my eyes.

Not because my mother raised me that way. But because My Heavenly Father taught me WHO I AM.

I didn't become active in the church until I was 19; I learned about LOVE from God - not my parents. But I Honor and Respect the man who raised me as my father - I acknowledge he did the best he could with what he had and how he himself was raised to think of himself. And He has earned the right to be my father. Not OM.

The one thing both my parents did right was lay a strong foundation of wrong and right - isn't that odd - as abusive and dysfunctional as that childhood was (Dad was an alcoholic and a mean son-of-a-gun when he had been drinking, even a little bit - and a lot of times when he hadn't touched the stuff) and Mom was mentally ill - undiagnosed, but I know enough to know how to deal with her in a loving and kind way without taking her personally.

You have an opportunity to set things right for a child that has yet to be born. To be the kind of father OM isn't qualified to be. You are worthy to bless her/him and raise that child to know God's goodness and love. Your wife isn't there yet, and OM isn't there as long as he's in your wife's life.

So - make this a matter of fasting and prayer. I've seen some great men raise other men's children with love and care. And I've seen some great women raise other women's children with love and care, neither associating the children resulting from cheating as the problem, but eventually the gift of Trust God gave them to do the right thing for this little one.
Glad to hear you're hanging in there. The best way to make sure your wife doesn't go loco and call the police for a restraining order to get you out of the house is to rally support from your kids. Especially the two oldest.
They should know that mommy is going through some very difficult times right now because she has a boyfriend and that married mommies aren't supposed to have boyfriends.
The soon-to-be sibling could be addressed at some point--I'm not sure if it's best they know you're not the baby's daddy. Maybe not. But at the very least, they should know that mommy is in an affair and might be trying to do things to introduce a new daddy onto the scene.
That way if the police are ever called and the children are interviewed, they can understand the situation better.
Another suggestion is to carry around a pocket recorder. If things start getting heated, pull it out and let her know that you're recording. That tends to calm things down a bit.

OR you could just keep it hidden and if she makes a false claim based on an argument, you will have it on record for the cops to hear. It probably wouldn't be admissible, but it would give them a clue about what's really going on.
Apparently Cali is one of those bassackward states that says ALL parties must consent to being taped.

Fudge.
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
Apparently Cali is one of those bassackward states that says ALL parties must consent to being taped.

Fudge.

Oh, this is just one of the many ways in which CA is bassackward.
Believe me, I know. I can't BELIEVE some of the stuff that state gets away with "in the name of a child"...

It's like CPS is the head of the Fruit and Nut mafia.
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
Believe me, I know. I can't BELIEVE some of the stuff that state gets away with "in the name of a child"...

It's like CPS is the head of the Fruit and Nut mafia.
They don't call it the land of fruits and nuts for nothing!

It is very hard to force someone out of their home in CA except for abuse, abandonment type stuff. I would keep the recorder around simply to protect yourself if she falsly claims abuse.
Freakin' lousy morning.

WW and I took kids to school and ran into OM. Yes, he's that close by. She had claimed he was in OC at his parents and I got a bit defensive claiming she knew he was going to be here. Turns out he's here to clear out his house. OMW is going to Utah, he's going to OC and house they are in now will be rented by mid-Nov. They are out Nov 1st (that's a good thing cuz now he HAS to live in OC (orange county)).

To try and make up I took WW and youngest DS to breakfast. Things were going good, she agreed to let me go to the first ultrasound next week (since OM is, or was, on NC). And then I get a text from OM asking me to call him. Well, I told WW I just got the text and should I call him now? She says yes, so I call him there in the restaurant.

OM starts telling me all the ways WW has been breaking NC the past few days (I already knew this but neither WW or OM knew) and I let WW know what OM was telling me. She then silently gets up and walks out of the restaurant (we're real close to our house). I try to find her but she runs away from me. Eventually she meets up with OM and they talk for a few minutes, then she ends up at home all angry at me.

I ask her, are you guys going to stick with this NC or not? She says "probably not" because "things have changed and we don't know what we're going to do". Apparently the other night, the MC told OM that he had to choose between his kids and WW. OM told this to WW yesterday and she told him to choose the kids. But then they saw each other today and they're right back into the fog and nobody knows what they want...AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! It's like dealing with two stupid teenagers. I want to take a brick to the OMs head!!!

So, freakin' A, now everything's all jacked up again. Bah, shouldn't have made the phone call in front of WW. Although it would have gotten back to her eventually and probably blown up in some other way.

AND, the best part is, I tell WW that she has little to no hope of getting sealed to this guy. I tell her, if you move out, what are you going to do, live with him? That's a sin, a huge one. How can you sin and ever hope of repenting so you can get back in the church, go to the temple and be sealed? She says she plans to live on her own - with the kids BTW. Uh, what???? She has no job, didn't graduate high school, hasn't worked a job in 12 years. Please. She's in a fantasy world.

I don't want to just pop this bubble, I want to destroy it.

Ugh, too many LBs this morning. My WW is insane.

Tell her from me that I hope she does really well in that job she gets at Taco Bell.

Ooops.

Was that a DJ?

You need to call OMW and tell her about the continued contact. If they are in MC together, the WTH is he doing calling you and your ww? You and OMW need to compare notes.
Oh, and run up the numbers on how much CS you expect FROM HER!

I know that Cali is granola and all, but a no job cheater has to weigh in SOMEWHERE in deciding who gets custody. Tell he you WILL FIGHT for the children.
Oh, and weren't they ORDERED by the Bishop not to talk to one another? I think a phone call is in order.
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Another suggestion is to carry around a pocket recorder. If things start getting heated, pull it out and let her know that you're recording. That tends to calm things down a bit.

OR you could just keep it hidden and if she makes a false claim based on an argument, you will have it on record for the cops to hear. It probably wouldn't be admissible, but it would give them a clue about what's really going on.

All you need to do is pull it out, show it to her, then put it back into your pocket. If you go on the offensive with it, it will look bad. If she files a false DV charge against you and the tape exonerates you, it will most likely be admissable.

In my sitch, my ex filed a false DV charge KNOWING she was being taped. She started to go batty, I showed her the recorder hoping she would calm herself, then she asked if I was still recording and WENT OFF on me.

It got me attorney fees for a false DV charge. Then, in custody, she tried to get it dismissed as evidence. But, in the DV hearing, she had subpoena'd the tape and had it admitted into evidence. Her arguement was bunk at that point.
Interesting that your wife is uneducated and hasn't had an outside job for most of her entire adult life. Sounds like there are some REALLY BIG unmet emotional needs going on there. What is the POS-OM doing to meet them? THAT'S what's creating the feelings of *luvvvvv* they have.
If she's a SAHM, with no way of getting gainful employment, it's a toss up in court. A sympathetic judge will give her the kids and make you pay support to her and the POS-OM.
Lawyer up, NOW. You don't have to file anything, but this sounds dangerous.
Definitely lots of unmet ENs, but more because of neglect and emotional abuse on my side. She is a SAHM and from the beginning, that's what we both wanted. She's never shown any interest in more schooling, though time to time I've told her I would support her if she wanted it. She loves the kids and wants to be home for them.

I haven't really posted much about my failures, but the list is long and believe me I've spent many, many hours beating myself up for everything I did wrong. And of course I hear it from WW on a daily basis ("you ALWAYS did...").
Sorry you're having a rotten day indarkness. I'm starting to realize how lucky I am that my OM lives 3000 miles away. I'm not sure R my M would have been nearly as easy if my H and I had to deal with running into the OM all the time. Maybe things will start to get better for both of you once OM moves.

By the way, I'm in So-Cal too. I used to live in OC before we moved to the IE.

And try not to beat yourself up too much. Everyone has faults. We're all human. Your WW will probably keep throwing your faults in your face as a way to ease her own guilt. Somehow, it makes her A seem justifiable if you did something that caused her to find someone else. More typical wayward behavior. I know I did it. My H even blamed himself for my A because he had an on-again, off-again EA with an ex-girlfriend for the first 10 years of our M. I can't say that didn't contribute to my feelings of not being loved, but it doesn't excuse my A. I am still responsible for my own actions, just as your WW is responsible for hers.
OK, so there are some paradoxes here. If your wife:
1. Made a conscious decision to drop out of high school and build a family;
2. Chose to have an A (due to a difficult M or whatever)
She now is in a situation where:
1. Her family unit is destroyed.
2. Her current children will have to come to grips with a half-sibling that was conceived through an affair.
So we all know she's completely lost her mind, but her decisions are antithetical to anything she's built her life upon.
I guess she must be hoping that you will disappear from the children's lives and let her and the POS-OM go off into the sunset to build a new life?
She's gotta be doing some serious tap dancing in her head.
Reason I bring all this up is that often waywards really weren't that "into" the idea of a monogomous family life to being with. Their actions and independent behaviors from the start have shown that. But your wife put all her eggs (literally) into the "family first" basket. Her education-not necessary. Her family and church-essential. But now, family and church are gone? Very precarious situation, if you ask me.
You need to get some legal advice, not file for D or LS but get some advice! In our lovely state, your WW will get the kids and a huge chunk of support. The courts will not give a rats patootie that she is cheating or even that OM is living with her. All they will see is a SAHM needs $$$ from you. You need to find out immediately what steps you can take to get around that. My guess would be to get HER out of the house without the kids for a period of time so you can claim abandonment.

BTW, here in CA you have two years from the birth of the OC to contest paternity. Do NOT sign the BC or declaration of paternity.
Originally Posted by faithful follower
You need to get some legal advice, not file for D or LS but get some advice! In our lovely state, your WW will get the kids and a huge chunk of support. The courts will not give a rats patootie that she is cheating or even that OM is living with her. All they will see is a SAHM needs $$$ from you. You need to find out immediately what steps you can take to get around that. My guess would be to get HER out of the house without the kids for a period of time so you can claim abandonment.

BTW, here in CA you have two years from the birth of the OC to contest paternity. Do NOT sign the BC or declaration of paternity.

I'm not sure this is the best advice. IF his WW ends the A and commits to NC with the OM and decides she really does want to save her M, then indarkness would be in a better position as far as the OC is concerned if he did have his name on the BC. That way, the OM would have no legal ground to stand on as far as the OC was concerned and would not be able to interfere in their lives or the life of the OC. I realize this is a lot of IF's, but the baby isn't due for a long time, so there is still hope that the fog will clear before she gives birth. If the OM really does move away, that could help a lot.

It would be best for everyone if his WW ended the A and raised the OC with her H as a family, especially since they have so many young children. Their youngest is only 20 months old, after all.
I have a question, when does it become time to protect COM and ID FROM the ww?

Cos I'm of the opinion that the longer ID waits, the harder it will become...and let me tell you all from experience, it wasn't till I actually put my own boundries/protection in place that the fwh decided to end it with VD.

Never underestimate the value of a well thought out plan. Even if you don't have to use it.
Help me out here - COM and ID? I don't think I've seen these abbreviations here before...
ID is you - InDarkness

COM = Children of Marriage
I'm not saying ID shouldn't protect himself and his COM. I'm just saying, this is still very early in the game. His WW is what, 6 wks. pregnant? I'm not sure how long the A has been going on, but I think she got pregnant very soon after the A began, so not that long. This is a very foggy time for his WW, and it's complicated by her pregnancy hormones. I had already decided to end my A when I found out I was pregnant, and the hormonal thing still caused problems for me.

I think he still has some time to wait and see if the A dies a natural death, and it seems likely that it will. The reality is that his WW has no job, no money, and no education. If the OM gets a D, most of his income will go to CS for his COM's. Yes, the WW may get support from ID, but she won't get his entire paycheck the way she does now. Also, her relationship with OM will never be accepted by the church, or her family, friends, or even her own children. She will forever be isolated from the very things that are most important to her. I think all of this is going to occur to his WW at some point in time and it is going to be a big reality check.
ID is you, COM, I'm thinking children of the marriage?
Yes, I feel that we are still very early into this whole thing.

The A started 8/25, Dday was 9/10. So we *really* are not that far along. The frequency of in-person contacts between WW and OM have decreased substantially over just the past 7 weeks. Exposure has done a lot to make contact harder. And now OMW is moving out of state, OM won't see his kids and OM is trying to initiate a period of NC.

WW's head is still *way* in the clouds. Just talked to WW sister who says WW is asking for number for lawyer sister knows. WW has threatened D many times before but I think OM is putting pressure on to get her out or maybe kick me out, who knows.
>to get her out or maybe kick me out, who knows.


All the more reason to protect yourself and your children.
Originally Posted by writer1
I'm not sure this is the best advice. IF his WW ends the A and commits to NC with the OM and decides she really does want to save her M, then indarkness would be in a better position as far as the OC is concerned if he did have his name on the BC. That way, the OM would have no legal ground to stand on as far as the OC was concerned and would not be able to interfere in their lives or the life of the OC. I realize this is a lot of IF's, but the baby isn't due for a long time, so there is still hope that the fog will clear before she gives birth. If the OM really does move away, that could help a lot.

It would be best for everyone if his WW ended the A and raised the OC with her H as a family, especially since they have so many young children. Their youngest is only 20 months old, after all.
Write, you know that I fully support BH raising OC as his own and keeping OM out of the M. My advice is based on the current situation of OM and WW still in contact and the assumption she wants to move out to pursue her luuuurve with OM. Of course if the situation changes and OM is out of the pic, NC is in place then ID should sign the BC. Right now it does not look good, we ALL know that can change. Right now, ID needs to protect himself, his assets and most of all his COM.
ID,

If the baby comes to term, did you consider adopting out to an uninvolved couple? If you are LDS I think they can help out.

I was adopted out of my original family. In the end I was with two parents who wanted me without reservations.

NJ
newjersey:

WW says adoption is a no-go. I don't think she could or would do it.
It just frustrates me to no end--and I'm sure you, too, ID, that people like your WW go off and have unprotected sex. It's almost like they are oblivious to the consequences. All those years put in with those children of yours, just tossed into the toilet for a roll in the hay with a soulmate.
Sheesh. When will people learn to use birth control, especially if they're having an A??? Why make it worse!!!!???
It is so amazingly frustrating. Every time this particular topic comes up with people I talk too they are totally exasperated. An A damages enough people but to drag another innocent child into it, is in my mind, completely indefensible.
Quote
It's almost like they are oblivious to the consequences

Almost?

Almost?

Try totally.
Originally Posted by imanotherone
It just frustrates me to no end--and I'm sure you, too, ID, that people like your WW go off and have unprotected sex. It's almost like they are oblivious to the consequences. All those years put in with those children of yours, just tossed into the toilet for a roll in the hay with a soulmate.
Sheesh. When will people learn to use birth control, especially if they're having an A??? Why make it worse!!!!???

All I can say is, an A completely and totally messes up your ability to think clearly. There is no excuse. When I look back on that time in my life, I ask myself the same question. How on earth could I have done something like that? I don't know the answer. It doesn't even feel as though that person was really me. Once a wayward snaps out of the fog, they are often just as baffled and mortified by their own actions as the BS.
Woman are most apt to have unprotected sex when most apt to concieve (it is biologically a strong drive) and a foggy headed wayward is even more apt to due to not thinking things through.

I remember reading somewhere in a MB piece that if a child is born from the adultery, the betrayed spouse could be the go between of all informatin passed from the bio parents. That the no contact still applies to the adulterers for the marriage to survive.
>betrayed spouse could be the go between of all informatin passed from the bio parents.

I'd rather eat glass every day for the rest of my life.


Originally Posted by Dealan-de
>betrayed spouse could be the go between of all informatin passed from the bio parents.

I'd rather eat glass every day for the rest of my life.

I'm sure that's a very common feeling. That's why it's better to keep the AP out of the picture altogether. Things have been so much better around here since we established complete NC with the OM.
I just saw the post on the need for full exposure. Turns out that with the OMW moving that everyone in our ward (congregation) (well, all but the clueless) now know, more or less, about the A. And if they don't know, they suspect it.

This morning I recruited a friend to the cause. My WW and her have a good relationship and I think she is very willing to help my wife break through the fog. Her sister is a marriage counselor and is giving her some good advice. I told her to contact my wife ASAP and lay down the law however she saw fit.
IF she goes to an attorney....one of the first things he's (assuming it's a he today) is going to tell her is to go to the bank and withdraw 1/2 or ALL the savings you two have. He does this FIRST to insure that he gets paid and that he can rack up a huge bill on your wife (wayward wives are ALMOST ALWAYS high dollar clients, if they have the money available to spend, that need constant hand holding and constant BILLABLE calls and letters).

Also...IF she files...the petition will include language which forbids you from not maintaining the status quo as far as assets and bills. You CAN dump her financially (cutting off cell phone, maybe trading in her car for a junker, cutting off her gym membership, cancelling credit cards that have her name on them) BEFORE you get served but thereafter it gets more difficult.

Assess you financial situation NOW and make a plan. One big thing is getting a hold of all or most of the family savings. Now the courts may look at that as being vindictive if you take ALL the money out of joint name and put it in your name leaving your SAHM penniless. That is why I typically recommend you take 3/4th of the money (1/4 for each member of the family) leaving just 1/4 in the joint accounts. This is more easily justifiable. You aren't HIDING the money either...just transferring it and PROTECTING it. Getting her name off joint cards is a must...soon as without cash she's likely to CHARGE a hefty legal retainer (which she'll blow through real quick) on your joint credit card.

All in all, the less money she has available the better. First, the lawyer she eventually hires (and hopefully her) MAY be less likely to rack up huge legal bills. Second, without unlimited seeming financing, she may be more amenable to settlement someday. Finally, YOU won't be enabling her affair. She'll be lovebusting OM about money AND driving OM crazy complaining about and FOCUSING all her energy on you.

I'm not saying do this today. But it's certainly a consideration TODAY. Fight for your marriage AND protect yourself on the backside.

Mr. W
Wouldn't hurt to stuff away a little cash while you are at it. She's likley doing this as we speak. An extra $20-$50 cash withdrawal every time she uses the debit card at the grocery store or gas station.

W
Yep. And IF she can't get much cash, she won't be able to afford the pitbull lawyer--she'll have to settle for some namby-pamby. As Mr. Wondering can tell you, a crappy lawyer on your side is actually an ally for the enemy.
I'm really beginning to feel thankful that my H didn't find this site when I was involved in my A. I'm pretty sure if things had descended to this level in my M and gotten this ugly, we wouldn't still be together. Funny, my M managed to survive my A without having to get this ugly about everything. I'm not saying these tactics won't work. I really don't know. I'm sure they've worked for others in the past. But, I just can't imagine how they help WS's turn back toward the M or begin to have feelings of love toward their spouse again. It seems as though many of the things being tossed around here would only serve to give the WS more negative feelings toward their spouse. Is that the goal?

My H continued to love me throughout my A. He worked really hard not to LB. He tried his best to meet my EN (difficult, I know, when an A is ongoing). He made it obvious that he cared about me and wanted me to be happy and wanted our M to survive. Ultimately, I think that is what brought me back. It made me realize just how much our M meant to him and how much he loved me, something I really didn't believe before.
writer1: I get where the others are coming from but I'm with you - I'm all about keeping the peace. Yes, it means I leave myself open to getting screwed but it also means it's less likely to get to that point in the first place. Frankly, I don't really care all that much about money. There will always be ways to get by.

As for accounts, the vast chunk of our money (which isn't much) is in a savings account in my name only. She has no idea where it is or even how to get to it. We have separate checking accounts - I long ago took away and shredded the ATM card she had for my account (this was all several months before the A - a desperate attempt on my part to try and get money matters resolved - good thing in hindsight...). We have one joint credit card and it's pretty much maxed out. All others have been canceled.

So, long story short, she has no access to cash. That doesn't mean she can't go out and get another CC but she has high balances on the several she already has so I don't know what the odds are of her getting anything more than a few K of credit.
Indarkness,
I have been following your thread. I am so sorry you have been thrown into this mess. I was there, too, when my H had a year long affair that produced an OC. Believe it or not, in the end he was not excommunicated. I think the timing of the counsel had a lot to do with it. He had finally (5 months after d-day) really become remorseful and committed to the marriage. He had been walking the line between OW and me for that long.............long enough for OC to be born during that time.

I can't imagine the pain of having the OM be a friend and someone in your ward! It was bad enough that the OW lived in another state!

Your wife will unlikely change her tune until she sees what she will lose. I have seen it many times in the 5 years I have been on the OC Board and MB. And it happened to me, also. My H rapidly started serious work to choose his path and commit to the marriage after I made him leave. That was about 7 weeks into the disaster. I was monitoring the e-mails they sent and I caught the one where they were talking about his proposing marriage to her. I went balistic! I didn't care if I revealed my source, then. I made him leave that day and I went into an unguided plan B (I didn't know about MB then). I wouldn't take his calls and I filed for divorce the next day. How much can a person take? Really!

You will have to decide how much of your wife's disrespect of you and your family you will take before you make her leave and live with her choices. But I think she will glide along in fantasy land until she get a hard look at the reality she has created for herself and for YOU! She created this! As much as you want to keep the peace, there will be NO peace for a long time. Because of her and OM and the selfish, cruel choices they have made......again, for you.

You and your marriage can recover. But NOT while OM is in the picture in anyway..............for a long time. Your wife needs to be NC and focused on you, for any real recovery to begin. As long as she continues to get her "dose" of loving OM, you are not going to make it. You may have read enough on MB to have heard the saying, "Your marriage can survive the wayward spouses anger (when you mess up their fantasy), but it cannot survive and on-going affair." And that is what you have going right now. The affair is not over and if OM is encouraging her to divorce you and his W is gone and mayby filing as well, they may be changing their plans and the fantasy is continuing.

Don't be a pushover to keep the peace. I went that route, since that was what I always did, and it is my biggest regret. I didn't stand up for myself like I wished I could have, even after he returned home. He still called much of the shots and I didn't recognize my own power in the situation to affect the change. I am not saying be a raging maniac (even if that's what you feel inside). I just mean to set your boundaries of what you will accept and don't let your foggy wife setting them for you. She will say she is choosing what's best for everyone, but she really only means her and OM. It's not you or your COM. It's not. My H said outright that he didn't care if all of our children went inactive and followed in his wordly footsteps. He was soooo far out there with his thinking. He said he would never come back to the church if he was excommunicated. Like it was THEIR problem. And he most definately cared more about OW's feelings than mine. For a long time..................even after he had committed to stay with me.

It is clear that we did not begin recovery until he stopped talking to OW. I could always tell when he had talked to her because he would change, and not in a good way.

Be patient. Set your boundaries and a timeline of how long you will go. I decided I would go up to the birth of OC, to make sure that he did not attend it. That would have been a dealbreaker for me. I wanted OW to give birth without him, cruel as that may seem. I needed her to feel some of the pain she helped cause me. You can set your own timeline and see how it is going. You have this chance to see if it can be worked out. And I know you will give it your all. But you can always get divorced. You have that right, if you can't take it anymore. No one would blame you. Especially if your wife is still unrepentant.


Originally Posted by writer1
I'm really beginning to feel thankful that my H didn't find this site when I was involved in my A. I'm pretty sure if things had descended to this level in my M and gotten this ugly, we wouldn't still be together. Funny, my M managed to survive my A without having to get this ugly about everything. I'm not saying these tactics won't work. I really don't know. I'm sure they've worked for others in the past. But, I just can't imagine how they help WS's turn back toward the M or begin to have feelings of love toward their spouse again. It seems as though many of the things being tossed around here would only serve to give the WS more negative feelings toward their spouse. Is that the goal?

My H continued to love me throughout my A. He worked really hard not to LB. He tried his best to meet my EN (difficult, I know, when an A is ongoing). He made it obvious that he cared about me and wanted me to be happy and wanted our M to survive. Ultimately, I think that is what brought me back. It made me realize just how much our M meant to him and how much he loved me, something I really didn't believe before.

Writer, you may have had a husband who was willing to forgive and you may have been able to quit OM and commit to your marriage early on. You may have not given your H any reason to protect himself further. But that is not what usually happens. The protection that posters have been suggested are wise and prudent and he never has to USE his plans. Just have them. And his efforts to "win" (puke) back his wayward wife, don't mean he can't protect himself from further pain and destruction if things go poorly. I am glad you were so fortunate. Not everyone is.

We have seen on this board men get thrown in jail on the "testimony" of physical abuse of a wayward wife that was untrue and the man was months from seeing his children and clearing his name through the courts. We have seen betrayed spouses destitute because the other spouse took all the money from the account and left them with a mortgage and bills that could not be paid. We have seen children abandoned by wayward spouses who can only think about themselves and the affair. We have seen betrayed spouses duped in all sorts of cruel ways and taken advantage of by a wayward spouse.....in the name of their love for the affair partner.

It is common sense to take some of the applicable precautions suggested. Nothing is permanent and can be undone if all is well. But they are hard to take when it is too late. And one never knows when "too late" is, until it has passed.

Indarkness, don't sign the BC until you are ready. That can be fixed easily later when you feel secure. But a nightmare to undo, if at all. CA is a very scary place with the CS laws and such. Unpredictable, in spite of the law. Be cautious. It can't hurt.

You can make it. While I will never really "get over" the affair. I have forgiven and we are recovered and happy. Better than before, even.

Sorry this is so long. I have been debating on whether to post. You have been getting good advice from experienced people. Some posters have been here a long time and have seen it all. This site is a blessing for you, even if you don't agree with everything. The knowledge is extensive and it should give you comfort on what may come.

Take care. Love your children. Stay close to God.
Quick Update:

OM and WW agreed to a period of NC, as before, but this time I was asked by both to block OM phone # on my wife's cell. No need to tell me twice! Unfortunately, WW also deleted e-mails I was trying to get access to...nuts! I have lots of monitoring now in place to make sure NC remains in force.

WW has been moping and crying all day. I'm just not feeling much sympathy right now so I've chosen to just ignore her.

Also, saw e-mail that OM got from friend and forwarded to WW. Talked about how destructive divorce was, that OM needs to work things out for his wife, etc. etc. This kind of stuff seems to effect OM pretty heavily. OMW moved to Utah with kids today. OM now living in orange county with parents. He works in West L.A. For the first time in his life he will now be living without access to his children. Hopefully that should have some effect.

Saw paper in WWs purse with number to "alternative attorneys". Great. It was hidden so she didn't intend me to find it, i don't think. She seems to be very serious about divorce...don't know if she will go through with it or not.
Snooping hurts. Sometimes it feels like its better not to know...
I totally get that.

Snooping hoovers big time.

Sorry ID.

Snooping hurts, yes, but the alternative is even worse. What you don't know can definitely hurt you.

How are you doing today? I've been wondering, is your WW still going to church on Sundays? How does she feel about the church? Does she actually think if she gets a D and marries OM that they will be able to get sealed in the temple? Just trying to figure out where her head is.
At certain point in my snooping I was completely able to detach from the words I overheard because I had heard enough garbage to factual conclude that the things I was hearing weere complete and utter nonsense.

The last straw was when I heard my wife just lying her butt off to OM and telling OM that I was toxic. It was just sooooo over the top that I realized I could devalue EVERYTHING I overheard. The feelings, the passion, the connection...all bullcrud. None of it made sense and none of it was real. Thus, how could I allow a completely fake relationship hurt me. How could internalize the mean and horrible stuff being said about me....BY MY WIFE, nonetheless. I just TRIED not too. I tried to be a duck and let it fall off my back. Quack...quack...Plan A.

Another advantage of aggressive snooping is that once you get to recovery there's nothing you really need to discover. You already have pretty much the whole picture and you just know that that picture is a fraud.

Finally, if you do end up divorced...at least you've got the whole bogus picture. MANY divorcee's have little to no idea about why they got divorced. They were gaslight for months on end and often accepted 50% of the responsibility (or more) for the breakup of the marriage. Then, upon divorce, their spouse starts dating or moving in with this person they've been talking to for months...or even years and they SPECULATE that there was an affair but it's too late to prove it or snoop it. Such divorcee's live with regret and have to somehow accept the unknown. Not only that...their cheating spouses will forever LIE about the divorce to the kids and the world (blaming YOU). They will never admit it. At least YOU will know exactly why you got divorced and be able to move forward with your life.

Anyway...thought I'd give you some of the upside to snooping.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - "a PERIOD of No Contact" is a sham. Even if they manage to not talk for awhile you (and THEY) know at some point contact will resume...if only to negotiate when they can resume contact. Your wife will SABOTAGE your marital recovery efforts and then RUN to OM claiming that she tried OR claiming she just can't try because you did such and such and thus, the "Period of NC" can safely end. I hope something changes for you. This "period of NC" isn't the worst case scenario (full contact would be) but it's NOT the start of recovery. I recommend you take full advantage of this period to Plan A as thought he affair FULLY CONTINUES. Don't forget to utilize the stick (of the carrot and stick variety) from time to time...especially on OM's side of things. Keep on...keeping on.
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
I totally get that.

Snooping hoovers big time.

Sorry ID.

Second that!!!

Out of ALL the things I did in while in Plan A, this was the HARDEST. It took months of Mimi, Mark and others to convince me to keep doing it. Made me feel slimey and underhanded..... BUT it was when I finally did it properly that I busted that ol' nasty A up.......so you gotta keep at it

not2fun
Just read an intercepted message today between OM and WW. OM says he is immediately putting in for a transfer to TX or NY. Says he realizes there can be no repentance if he is anywhere near WW. Says transfers are for three years.

OM texted me today asking if I would raise the baby.

Don't know whether this is just more melodrama or the real thing. Seems more serious than past attempts...

WW is dying. She can't text or call OM because # is blocked. She only has e-mail and OM has blocked that.

WW is telling me to move NOW because she doesn't want to face her friends, she feels she is shunned forever. Major guilt attack. She's going to hammer me more in person when I get home. I'm trying delay tactics, whatever, just to help her get through withdrawal if that's where we are headed...

writer1: WW is going to church but only sacrament. Yesterday lots of her friends got up and bore their testimony. She thought is was directed at her (which it was) and that they are all fake. Man, she's angry. Yes, she thinks that OM and her can get a temple marriage, etc., etc., although with today's drama, that bubble may be bursting.

Bottom line is that OM seems to love his kids more than WW. We'll see how things go tonight. Time to put on the whole armor of God.
It seems that OM is finally starting to realize what he's going to lose if he continues to pursue your WW. It seems like a good sign that he's talking about moving and asking if you will raise the baby. I would be cautiously optimistic about this.

Your WW is probably going through massive withdrawals right now. Withdrawals can be very painful. I remember one particularly bad night when OM announced that he was cutting off all contact for several months so that he could "figure things out" and at the same time, H called and told me he wasn't coming home for the weekend because he "needed time alone to think." I freaked out, thinking I had lost them both. I actually went to the drug store and purchased some sleeping pills - not because I really wanted to hurt myself (though, I admit, the thought was there) but because I hadn't slept (or really eaten) in days and I just couldn't take it anymore. This is going to be a very difficult time for your WW. Be prepared for a terrible roller coaster of emotions.

It's good that your WW is going to sacrament at least. She may be angry when she hears people say things that are directed at her, but maybe some little bit of it will get through. She does still need to know that people love her and care about her no matter what she has done.

Good luck tonight. Stay strong. Just remember, this too will pass. There's no guarantee how things are going to turn out of course, but there is something better waiting for you on the other side of all this. Maybe it's a recovered M and maybe it isn't, but things will eventually settle down one way or another. How are your kids holding up through all of this?
It seems to me like the A is starting to die. Of course you can help expedite that slow and painful death by blocking means of contact between WW and OM. Get into her email and block OM's email address in case he doesn't. Keep an eye on your WW because she will likely try and visit OM in person if he doesn't continue to call or email her back.

All the meanwhile, just plan A. Try to engage your WW in conversation about non-relationship stuff when she lets you. Just try to make it comfortable small talk. No relationship talk. When she tells you stuff like move out, I'm going to D you, etc., just don't respond and let it roll off your back. After about 2 months of no contact w/ OM and she'll be singing a different tune. You just need to be a safe and pleasant alternative to her current plans.
Thought I'd give you an idea which MAY be feasible.

Your wife (in her withdrawal and foggy state) wants to move to get away from the embarassment of all this.

You COULD agree to TRYING. It's likely not economically feasible in today's market and based upon what you said earlier about your finances...but what the heck. Getting the house ready TOGETHER to put it up for sale is a nice withdrawal and early recovery PROJECT. You can spend a lot of time together painting rooms, organizing closets, shopping for things to stage the house with, etc....Plan A'ing her through withdrawal and DISTRACTING HER from her "pain".

Listing the house doesn't mean selling it. You just set your price real high and stick to it. No lowball offers will even be entertained. You never really have to sell it. Just get the house ready for sale. Now IF someone comes in at your really high price...then, by all means, you CAN sell it and go out and get yourself another house (in town or not). By the time your house is even ready to sell your wife may be through withdrawal and thinking more clearly (and NO LONGER want to move).

This might all be complicated by the pregnancy...but nonetheless a distraction you can work on together might benefit you both.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Hopefully when the fog clears she'll no longer wish to move away. Repentence can completely shed her disgrace and you two can once again become upstanding members of your temple and an example to all.
Unfortunately or otherwise, we rent right now. However, we are only two months into a 1-year lease, so I can use that, somewhat.

Assuming we are starting real withdrawal, how do I get through it? Right now, she detests me, or at least it seems that way. All I want to do is steer clear cuz face-to-face just means immediate confrontation.
I remember detesting my H at one time. I don't know how he got through it. I'll try again to get him to come on here. He's been reading through your thread, but there's a lot to read and he doesn't have much time with work and all.

My best advice is to remember that it is the withdrawal speaking and not your wife. Take care of yourself and your children and try not to internalize anything that she says or does. It has very little to do with you.
Originally Posted by indarkness
Yes, she thinks that OM and her can get a temple marriage, etc., etc., although with today's drama, that bubble may be bursting.

I asked specifically about this at the time my H had asked OW to marry him. I was told that a temple marriage for them would never be allowed.

I am glad to hear that OM seems to be really going NC. Great news. Except that means your wife has been "dumped" and we all know how that feels. She likely thinks it's your fault somehow.

Stay strong. It is very difficult to watch your spouse pine for someone else. Hard to feel sympathy for their pain when it was self imposed and yours is so severe.

I would have never thought a marriage could recover from a disaster like this, but it can. Our Ske. Pres. told me that I had changed eternity for my family by holding it together while my H thrashed around with his decision and withdrawal. I kind of liked that idea! My childrens lives are all the better that we were able to stay together. They have not been told about OC and only my oldest son knew about the A. Some day they will be told, but since we are NC with OC and they live far away, there wasn't any need. At least that is what i thought was best.

We moved away from the ward/current area about 1-1/4 years after D-day. My H had been reinstated and it was best for everyone for a fresh start............at least I thought so. For my H, it was the greatest thing that could have happened. For me, all the turmoil had finally settled and I had lost all my support and I became very depressed and angry. Overall, it was still good, but not so easy as I had thought.

But Mr. W is right. It was a great project for the both of us (even if you don't actually do it). To plan our new life and a new start. That was wonderful.

As I said earlier, snooping hurts.

Lousy OM came up to his empty house today and wrote WW an e-mail talking about how he was looking around and crying. So WW meets up with him and, well, yeah. Unbelievable. Even now, it still hurts every time this happens, although its now more anger than heartache.

WW went out with friend tonight (absolutely confirmed, I set up the dinner and confirmed with friend, she's on my side). While WW was out I was so angry that I called the OM up. Didn't tell him anything about e-mails. Didn't even hint at it. Instead I asked him what he was planning on doing with my wife cause she was heartbroken the whole day. And then I asked him: "you know, I left my house this morning and my wife was sobbing. I come home tonight and she's smiling and happy. My experience has been that this only happens when you and her get together. Did you see each other today?" Long pause. And then the OM confesses, though not to the sex and I didn't care to ask, it was implied in the e-mails tonight. Anyways, I then laid in to him about how crappy he must feel now that his kids are gone. And then I asked him, is that what you want me to feel? You want me to lose my kids too? Because if you keep this up that's what's going to happen. You are not only going to steal away my wife, but my children too. I did this over and over again for 45 minutes. I told the little jerk to walk away, do the right thing and give my wife and I the chance to heal. If she wants to divorce, then let it be on her own terms, but it can't happen while he's around. It sounded at some points like he was crying, particularly when we talked about his kids. I know that's his weak point so I tried to hit it over and over. I don't know if he got the message or not but I left no doubt that I was going to fight this to the bitter end.

The little [censored] is just a complete and total, gutless, brainless [censored]. And my WW is just his...grrrr I want to say it but I won't.

WW is going to see counselor tomorrow. Late in the evening, so I get to drive her there, thank goodness. Don't want to leave her alone at all.

This is so consistent with this whole process. Every time it seems like something good is about to happen, everything falls apart, again and again. I feel like I'm becoming conditioned to be continually disappointed.
My take is you need to stop talking to the OM. He's not your friend, he is not a friend of the marriage. All he's feeling right now is he needs your WW to support his sorry rear end for getting kicked out of his house.

Surely there is more to it than not talking to OM again?

Do I understand this correctly? Your wife and OM had sex yesterday? Your post is a little obscure. I'm so sorry if this is indeed what you are saying.

ļæ½ļæ½Instead I asked him what he was planning on doing with my wife cause she was heartbroken the whole day. And then I asked him: "you know, I left my house this morning and my wife was sobbing. I come home tonight and she's smiling and happy. My experience has been that this only happens when you and her get together. Did you see each other today?" Long pause. And then the OM confesses, though not to the sex and I didn't care to ask, it was implied in the e-mails tonight. Anyways, I then laid in to him about how crappy he must feel now that his kids are gone. And then I asked him, is that what you want me to feel? You want me to lose my kids too? Because if you keep this up that's what's going to happen. You are not only going to steal away my wife, but my children too. I did this over and over again for 45 minutes. I told the little jerk to walk away, do the right thing and give my wife and I the chance to heal. If she wants to divorce, then let it be on her own terms, but it can't happen while he's around. It sounded at some points like he was crying, particularly when we talked about his kids. I know that's his weak point so I tried to hit it over and over. I don't know if he got the message or not but I left no doubt that I was going to fight this to the bitter end.ļæ½ļæ½

About the worst thing you can do was to tell this to the OM. You empowered him. You told the OM who bad your WW is missing him. You gave the OM the motivation to keep pursuing your WW. Especially that the OM has her knocked up.

You also came across as weak, needy, begging for your WW. You reaffirmed that WW canļæ½t walk away from the OM. That OM has to be the strong one. Not your WW or you.

You have told the OM if he is persistant in persuing your WW he has a good shot at getting her. Whether this is true or not this is what your words have told the OM.

This is why it is usually bad to contact the OM. If the OM cared he about you he would of not had unprotected sex with your WW and get her pregnant.

The OM does not care about what you do or fear you.
If she had sex during this pregnancy, she should be ashamed of herself. For someone with such a high number of miscarriages, she has no business behaving that way.
But I really am less concerned about your wayward wife and her wayward OC right now.
Who is taking care of your kids when you shuttle her around to this counselor. I say let her drive herself. You start bonding with those kids. They need you a lot more than WW.
It might also be time for a dark, dark plan B. She's not gettin' it.
And really, your church members really need to step up more. I mean isn't that what that community is for? They're not just there for the good times. These people witnessed your marriage, possibly. They watched your children grow in the church. They need to "bring the wood" and start crashing on WW's head. This includes leaders and members alike.
I'm sorry you had to go through that. I agree that it is time to stop talking to the OM. You may have considered him a friend at one time, but he is definitely not a friend to you or your M.

I think right now you need to focus on taking care of yourself and your children. How are your children doing? Who is watching them during the day while the OM is banging your WW? Sorry to be so blunt and obscene, but this has to be affecting them. It really concerns me that you haven't spoken with them about this yet. I think it's time for you to tell your kids what's going on. They need to know what their mother is doing isn't right before she moves you out and attempts to move OM and their "new daddy" in. They need to hear the truth from you, not your WW's justifications for why what she is doing is right and okay. What she is doing isn't right or okay.
I think the call was fine as getting OM to end it is the best chance you've got to end it. OM already KNOWS he's got your wife wrapped up...you didn't give him any new information. Telling him to end it and HOW (as waywards never know how) is good. Especially, considering they were trying this "take a few month break" plan which obviously FAILED miserably. These waywards need direction and you certainly can't go to your wife so OM is the next best step. I do hope he'll do it but regardless he'll feel even more guilty if he doesn't which will prompt him to walk away sooner than later. Lots of OM's throw in the towel...WW's, not so much.

Sometimes it's OK to keep your enemies close...especially while the war rages. Inevitably, it will become unhealthy FOR YOU, but not yet. You appear close to breaking him.

On the other hand, you may want to back off calling OM as he's now isolated. His wife and kids are gone so giving him ANY conversation is giving him something. Let him rot.

Tough spot....we are praying for you.

Mr. Wondering
I don't think OM is breaking and contact with him last night may have furthered his resolve - an e-mail to WW this morning suggested as much. I hate this guy. I really do need to stop all contact.

Cell phone is blocked. She used my BB yesterday but I changed the password there, so that's out. Right now all communication is through an e-mail address which she doesn't know that I know about. And i have a keylogger installed to catch any new addresses. Land line can't be blocked - don't even know why i have a land line...i should just disconnect the thing.

Other than that, I'm running out of ideas to keep these two separated short of me packing up and moving out of state. But that only works if WW wants to end the A, which she doesn't.

This sucks.

I need to tell the kids, I know. Need to figure out how to do that properly. I think WW is starting to manipulate my daughter.

However, at this point, do I just wait for this thing to die a natural death? That's going to be painful...
You need your lawyer to handle this, IMO. Your wife needs to be served with papers. She is still banging this guy? She is really messed up.
We warned you that if you don't tell the kids, the wayward will paint a different story and beat you to the punch. DO IT NOW.
"Married mommies don't date other men. Married daddies, like the OM, don't date other mommies. You mommy has committed adultery, which is wrong in the eyes of God. She WILL suffer her own consequences, but that has nothing to do with your future. I will always be here to love you and support you, and I hope that mommy someday realizes that she has committed a sin and comes back to us."
Make "mommy" realize that you're not going to give the kids up easily. Lawyer up, or you'll be regretting that mistake, too.
Block the email address and cut the land line. Don't let them communicate with one another, especially if OM is moving far enough away that your WW just can't pop by.
Look they're going to communicate, even if it means just physically sharing bodily fluids like they did the other night.
It has to be WW's choice to go NC. You can't force it on her, short of locking her in a cage. And even then, as soon as she escapes, she's back to riding bareback with the POS-OM.
She needs some CONSEQUENCES. NOW.
From WW:

"Hey why are you such a [censored]? ... you know what i want to be happy and you are fighting me on it. Just stop ok! You have had more than enough chances tio to change and you know it"

Since I started pushing back about 3 weeks ago, things have gotten progressively worse. I guess she realizes I'm done being a doormat and a waiter (woman eats like a horse).

imanotherone - I hear ya. I know. Kids need to know. I know. It's hard. I think I'm more concerned about WW blow up than kids reactions - they can take it. WW will flip out. And I'm so worried about my precious daughter just getting completely screwed up by this whole thing. WW will twist her.
Here is another idea. I think you mentioned that OM had moved in with his parents? Have you spoken with his parents? I would give them a call and let them know that OM is still seeing your WW. Especially if they are members of the church, this probably won't make them very happy. Maybe you could get them on your side and enlist their help in keeping OM away from your WW.

I really hope your WW snaps out of this and realizes what she is doing to your family. WW's may not break off the relationship as often, as MrWondering pointed out, but it does happen. I was the one who broke off my A. OM had already moved out of his house and filed for D and asked me to marry him. So, there is hope. But still, there are no guarantees, and you need to protect yourself and your kids.

Tell them. Tell them now! Say it just how imanotherone put it, in terms they can understand. Your kids need to know that what their mother is doing is very, very wrong, especially if she's starting to use them and manipulate them. Please don't put this off another day.
Indarkness,

Time for you to really trust your Spidy Senses. OM is homeless and desparate. Don't underestimate your WW and OM conjuring up some bogus DV claim and getting you kicked out of the house and her moving OM in. Some things I would recommend you do:

1. VOice Recorder going at all times when with WW. It may just save your skin if a DV charge comes along

2. Talk to your lawyer ASAP about what your options are.

The courts take DV very seriously and the laws are set up in a shoot first, ask questions later fashion. With a pregnant WW, you are put at even more of a disadvantage.
Listen to PSU. He knows what he's talking about. Seriously.
I shouldn't have contacted the OM last night. I just got a really long e-mail from him. [censored] is smooth with words. He sent it to WW as well. Basically tears me apart, says everything WW has been saying - nothing surprising. But then he says this:

"As for your children, they would be rich with love, culture, adventure, work, service, and spirituality. I would love them as my own."

I'm not going to respond, just let it sit there so WW knows I read it but didn't do anything with it. But it's hard with that last sentence.

Damn, this is starting to get ugly. Just what I didn't want to happen.
Forward it to the Bishop.
Wasn't it the church who told him to stay away from WW?

DD:

Here's the very last line in the e-mail:

"These are just some of my thoughts. Tell the bishop I say hi when you forward this to him. "
He's daring you to. Double dog dare.

He doesn't care about God. He doesn't care about the church.

AND HE DOESN'T GIVE A RAT'S BLACK YOU-KNOW-WHAT ABOUT YOUR KIDS.

(or HIS kids, for that matter)

I need to say this, and please try to keep it always in the back of your head.

Sometimes there comes a time when you can only save who you can save.

Do you know what I mean?

I mean there MIGHT come a time when you can't save your wife or the OC (because the OC is HERS), and you will be faced with the problem of trying to save who you can or let everyone fall down.

I am saying this because YOU need a plan in place IN CASE your wife loses what mind she has left.

If you want OM and WW raising your kids and SHOWING them that it's okay to throw away the people you pledge to FOR LIFE for an ITCH, then continue to NOT make waves - and DO NOT contact a lawyer.

But if you don't want this to happen - if the worst happens and your wife is forever swayed by the dark side and leaves - then YOU MUST have a backup plan to ensure that she IS NOT the primary caregiver/teacher of those kids.

I'll be dadgummed if I'll sit here and tell you to keep carroting the Plan A carrot without the stick. Where was the stick last night of plan A when you found out your WIFE was doing the dirty with OM?

Cos, I see that she's had ZERO consequences here. ZERO!
And let me tell you...even if you survive this and you *think* you are recovering...ZERO consequences is a recipe for an OC#2.

Trust me here. Livin' mi vida loca.
Wow, this guy sounds like a real piece of work. I would forward it the bishop anyway. Of course, since he's already been excommunicated, I don't know how much influence the church will have on him at this point. I mean, what else can they do? Your WW and OM have jumped off the deep end spiritually, emotionally, and psychologically.

It is imperative right now that you do what you have to do to protect yourself and your children. Contact the lawyer. You do not want to end up in a situation where WW and OM are raising your kids in your house on your dime. Call OM's parents and see if they still have any influence over him at all. Talk to your kids and tell them exactly what is going on. Make it clear to them that you love them and that what your WW is doing is not right.

Your WW needs to start suffering the consequences of her action. Yep, she'll be steaming mad when you tell your kids, because then she'll finally have to start answering for her behavior to the people who mean (or at least should mean) the most to her. Right now, she's living in fantasy land, and she'll keep on living there as long as you allow it.
Originally Posted by writer1
Wow, this guy sounds like a real piece of work. I would forward it the bishop anyway. Of course, since he's already been excommunicated, I don't know how much influence the church will have on him at this point. I mean, what else can they do? Your WW and OM have jumped off the deep end spiritually, emotionally, and psychologically.

It is imperative right now that you do what you have to do to protect yourself and your children. Contact the lawyer. You do not want to end up in a situation where WW and OM are raising your kids in your house on your dime. Call OM's parents and see if they still have any influence over him at all. Talk to your kids and tell them exactly what is going on. Make it clear to them that you love them and that what your WW is doing is not right.

Your WW needs to start suffering the consequences of her action. Yep, she'll be steaming mad when you tell your kids, because then she'll finally have to start answering for her behavior to the people who mean (or at least should mean) the most to her. Right now, she's living in fantasy land, and she'll keep on living there as long as you allow it.

Please listen to Writer. Both of us are telling you this because your wife and the POSOM have gone way too far with very little consequences.
Indarkness,

I bumped up a thread for you called "Caught them in the act". The thread originator, Runnerboy, walked in on his WW having sex with OM. She wound up preggers.....

It is an amazing story on what to do in your sitch and think you could learn a LOT.....RB was amazing and he recovered his marriage even WITH the OC

Read it........ And apply......

Not2fun

ps......I'm truly sorry for all you are going through
N2F, thanks for the bump. Reading through it now.

OK, I feel the need to summarize where I am right now so that I can get my head back in the game. Last 24 hours have been way more emotional than I thought they would be. I thought I was past most of the emotion.

OM and WW have tried voluntarily to do NC at least 4 times. Each time has failed within a few days. NC is not working. I have blocked most of what I can and I can take extreme measures to block everything else, if it comes to that. I've wanted OM and WW to initiate NC on their own hoping they would be more likely to stick to it if they initiated it. But they are weak and seemingly incapable of doing so.

WW is desperately trying to leave the area. She is embarrassed, guilty and her pregnancy is starting to show. She wants to be gone, now. I have so far mostly ignored her requests.

OM is now living with his parents about 60 miles from us but he works only ~25 miles away, so contact is still feasible. OMW and kids have moved to Utah. He says this doesn't bother him but he's a liar - I know it kills him. Particularly cuz he hates his wife.

I have been implementing more carrot than stick of Plan A as DD so correctly pointed out so that I could attempt to "keep the peace" as it were. But WW has just been using this time for cake-eating.

Plan B was originally scheduled for Jan. 3rd - I don't know if I can last that long, particularly with the kids hanging in the balance.

I am going to see Marriage Counselor alone tonight. WW was supposed to come but backed out due to "cold". Whatever. I'll get someone to watch the house to make sure OM doesn't sidle on up.

My goal has been fog busting but WW is very stubborn and very much "in love". Can't seem to break her.

LAWYER.
NOW.
NO BARGAINING.
EXPOSE TO KIDS.
NOW.
If need be, tell kids OM is trying to STEAL them from you. You have the writing to prove it.
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
Forward it to the Bishop.

I raise you and have him send it to OM's BW's Attorney.
And ask the OM's BW how she feels about half her money supporting the OC. Ya'll need some big guns to shoot these waywards out of the sky. They're in la la land.
Originally Posted by indarkness
I shouldn't have contacted the OM last night. I just got a really long e-mail from him. [censored] is smooth with words. He sent it to WW as well. Basically tears me apart, says everything WW has been saying - nothing surprising. But then he says this:

"As for your children, they would be rich with love, culture, adventure, work, service, and spirituality. I would love them as my own."

I'm not going to respond, just let it sit there so WW knows I read it but didn't do anything with it. But it's hard with that last sentence.

Damn, this is starting to get ugly. Just what I didn't want to happen.

The less you interact with the OM, the better. The POSOM in my sitch does everything he can to "show" he's a better father than me. In fact, he testified in court how horrible of a father I am. Then my attorney crossed examined him and asked him about his bench warrant for CS arrears. rotflmao

You are dealing with an OM who is showing sociopathic tendancies. He has already claimed your wife, he is working on claiming your kids and it looks like he going to start into claiming your house. Look at the logic - his mom is further away from his work than you. The quickest solution to his problem is a temporary restraining order against you.

Believe me, I went through this same crap. The OM in my sitch lived in our tennant house on our farm. Once WW and OM got wind that his previous landlord was going to reposess his horses that he left after he was kicked out, WW took out a restraining order on me getting me off the farm. The next day, WW and OM moved the horses onto the farm. Then, WW asked for a continuance on the restraining order hearing thus I was forced to find a place to live.

You need to talk to a lawyer and see what your response should be if WW takes out a TRO.
LISTEN TO PSU.
Contacting a lawyer today. Telling the kids tonight as well. I'm done with the games.

Just a quick spiritual note. I'm reading the BOM on my lunch break and today I was reading 2 Ne 7 and I came to this:

" 7 For the Lord God will help me, therefore shall I not be confounded. Therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.
8 And the Lord is near, and he justifieth me. Who will contend with me? Let us stand together. Who is mine adversary? Let him come near me, and I will smite him with the strength of my mouth.
9 For the Lord God will help me. And all they who shall condemn me, behold, all they shall wax old as a garment, and the moth shall eat them up."

I needed that. Amazing the way the Lord steps in and helps in small but definitive ways.

Back to the battle...
>Back to the battle...

Knowing that you have He who is Good and Just out there with you...

Believe it, ID.

I've seen His work first hand. Justice will happen, if you offer yourself to be His tool.
I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers tonight, indarkness. I know it isn't easy, but you're doing the right thing.
Yep. Glad to see you're calling in the Big guns. That's the kind of help you'll need here. Truly the devil you are against right now. Your very family is under attack. Know that, and you'll do the right thing.
BTW...

Don't be discouraged by reading the RunnerBoy thread as I am of the belief it was a fake thread.

Everything just went to perfectly for him...

It wasn't reality. It was a story.

Your situation IS reality.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I don't know this for certain.
>Your very family is under attack.

This is so true.
It would be difficult to NOT feel like one was in darkness when these things are happening. However, as light has a way of replacing darkness, lets talk about light for a while.

If you Know God is real, and if you know why we are here, then you know why these things happen. I believe the quote goes something like "It must needs be that there is opposition in all things."

You are getting lots of good advice here. You can make sure you do the right thing, in the right way, if you spend some time in prayer as you think about the course you will follow.

It doesn't look like there is any thing that the church can do at this point, as WW and OM don't seem to be taking advice from anywhere but the dark side, but they can pray for you. If WW has friends in your ward, you can ask for that kind of help, and tell them you are still fighting for your marriage. It may be that if they are praying for you (and your family including WW) that they will think of ways to help.

No matter what happens.......... you can still be happy. Your happiness does not depend on what your W does. Most of us know that on some level, but we have a hard time believing it, and feeling it.

There are many things you can't do right now. You can't make your W have the right attitude. You can't make her repent, and you can't make her love you. However, you can do things that will increase the chances of these things happening.

Do make sure you see a lawyer and that you increase your chances of keeping your children. Try to make sure that if she leaves, she can't take the children with her. I am guessing from what you have related, that she may just up and leave with little or no plan. Don't let your children go with her if she does.

Do let her experience the consequences of her actions. It is past the point where we can say that she made a mistake in a moment of weakness, and is trying to recover.
Notice that when we jump off a cliff, God does not catch us. He lets us experience the result of our decisions.

The stick of plan A doesn't mean that you are beating her, but it means you do let her experience the results of her choices. That includes telling the kids, making sure she can't take them and run, not funding her affair, and what ever else you need to do to protect the rest of your family from her bad decisions.

Do make the changes in yourself that you need to make. I have gotten a great deal from the materials found on this web site, and in Dr Harley's books. If you make the changes, and improve yourself, you get to keep them, no matter what she does.

It may help to think about this from another POV.
If she died, you would go on. You would make a happy life for yourself, and your children.
You could, and you would.

Sure you want to do all you can to make it work, but don't just hope, because hope all by itself is not a plan.

Keep in mind that God really is there. If it was best that he intervene directly, he would. Often it is best that we go through these experiences though, and he lets us. However, he helps us too. I hope you feel the help.

Make a plan, and run the plan daily. Be a light house. Be the port in a storm. Tell her that she can join you, or not, but that you are going to do the right things, in the right way no matter what she does. Then do them. Someday your children will thank you. Your W may also.

SS



I would pass OM's email along to the bishop, OMW's attorney, and OM's parents. I would get some contact info and start exposing some more to their families. Make your WW not worth the hassle.

Also, get your legal ducks in a row. Meet with a lawyer discuss your options. At some point your WW is going to move out. Well, when she does, you have an order drawn up with your lawyer FORBIDDING her to do so. Then if she still moves, you can file for abandonment and be in a good custody position. WW's only understand consequences, and you need to be prepared to subject her some tough consequences. Sure, if she comes back it will only be because the alternative is worse, but if she comes back and ends her affair, you will have a chance to build things back again.
So, indarkness, how did it go last night?
I talked to a very good lawyer I know yesterday and he referred me to another lawyer I know very well but didn't know he was a divorce lawyer. Very upstanding man. Exactly the kind of person I want handling this. Waiting for him to call back.

I went on a daddy-daughter date with my DD and we talked about marriage, what it meant, particularly in the context of a temple marriage. We talked about the importance of vows and covenants and why we don't break them. However, I couldn't bring myself to tell her about the A.

I talked to the marriage counselor about it later and she said "trust your parental instincts." But she also pointed out that in young children, the frontal cortex (logic center of the brain) is still developing. Their emotional core (temporal lobe??? i forget) is fully developed. So, young children will hear this and will act to it emotionally but without really understanding what's going on. She then asked "what will they get out of this, how will it help them?" So, I need to think on it some more.

If I had teenagers, that would be one thing, but an 8-year old little girl??? I don't know. And don't give me the "kids are resilient" line because that's the BS my WW keeps giving me to justify divorce.

I am having dinner with my 11-year old DS tonight. He saw WW writing an e-mail and saw line that said "[BS] is not helping me with divorce." We talked about it a bit but I plan on discussing it more with him tonight. Even when he saw this, he wasn't freaked out or anything. Just kind of talked to me and moved on. So, yes, kids are resilient, i guess.


Back in the mud, I'm really getting a view into the thinking of OM and WW now that their only communication line is through e-mail that I have. They are looking to set up a rendezvous. No time or place yet but I'll make sure it gets shut down.

OM seems very addicted to sex. Constantly, constantly makes references, etc. WW doesn't always respond to his gestures and sometimes does so hesitantly. But, at other times, goes along with it.

One cool thing, I blocked him from calling my home #!!! It surprised him and now they are all paranoid about phone calls. Yes!!! I think it's time to completely shut down the land line. No one of importance calls on it...

OM is also REALLY agitated by the fact that I have not responded to his e-mail. He keeps pressuring my wife to get info and I just give her one word clips: "Did you see it. yeah. What do you think? Interesting." I forwarded it to Bishop. Man it feels good to just know I've got OMs prissy panties in a wad.

I'm sure the joy will be short lived as something else comes up and implodes. But in the meantime, I'll enjoy my small victories.
Originally Posted by indarkness
I went on a daddy-daughter date with my DD and we talked about marriage, what it meant, particularly in the context of a temple marriage. We talked about the importance of vows and covenants and why we don't break them. However, I couldn't bring myself to tell her about the A.

I talked to the marriage counselor about it later and she said "trust your parental instincts." But she also pointed out that in young children, the frontal cortex (logic center of the brain) is still developing. Their emotional core (temporal lobe??? i forget) is fully developed. So, young children will hear this and will act to it emotionally but without really understanding what's going on. She then asked "what will they get out of this, how will it help them?" So, I need to think on it some more.
Ok think on this: here emotional core is fully developed but she's not mature enough to figure out the logic. So her mom suddenly stops loving her dad - how long before her mom stops loving her too? Maybe her mom will get a new DD! Maybe it was because she misbehaved and she's being punished. She must be pretty lousy to make her mom hate both her and her dad. THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE TEACHING HER BY NOT TELLING HER!!! IF YOU DON'T TELL HER THE TRUTH, HER SELF-ESTEEM FROM HERE ON OUT FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE WILL LOOK LIKE THIS!!!!!!

The WHOLE reason you need to tell your children is EXACTLY because they are not fully able to reason it out for themselves.
I understand you don't want to tell your kids, but I believe you are making a mistake here. It seems as though, if your WW continues this A and does move toward D and being with the OM, they are going to find out anyway. If you don't tell them, they will find out from her, and she will do everything in her power to convince them that her relationship with the OM is right. After all, she wants OM to be their new daddy. She's going to twist everything around and use any tactic she can to present the relationship in a positive light.

You have a very narrow window of opportunity here for your kids to hear this first from you, presented in a way that lets them know that A's are not okay and that what your WW is doing is wrong.

I know talking to an 8 year old sounds scary, but do you really want your WW to bring OM into your house and tell your kids he's their new daddy and that they're all going to be a big, happy family now? How much scarier would that sort of scenario be?
OK, I am now about to go ballistic...

I just read an e-mail exchange between OM and WW that said they were having sex in my car when my 20 month old was in there with them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

##!!$$????##@@

This marriage is over. My wife is psychotic.

I am going to bring that [censored] down.


And all kids will know tonight!! Well, i guess not my precious 20-month old.
Be careful what you do. Don't drag your self down with them.

You need to be cold and calculating. Not acting on emotion.

SS
ITA with Writer.

I would never ever give you the kids are resiliant line. fWh AND the OW both tried to hand that one to me all dressed up on a silver platter - but it was still horse hockey.

If kids are so resiliant how come my 9 year old (then 3 year old) STILL has anger issues? How come it took 2 extra years to potty train him? How come my littles still are afraid to sleep alone (OW would leave them and go out partying after they went to bed - they would often wake up to NO adult being there)?

Kids are NOT silly putty.

And they WILL look to YOUR behavior to guide them through this. If you are not open and honest with them from the get go, they will take that into account and kids ALWAYS "live what they learn."

Are YOU going to be open and honest or closed off and shut up?
Be very, VERY watchful of your littlest little. I cannot stress enough how much you need to make sure his schedule is constant, and that you are there for him at all times.

I cratered during the beginning of the nightmare. I could barely function. As a result, my DS9 (then 3ish) internalized A LOT of fear he felt eminating from me and the tension in the house.

He still has some problems, but compare him to the kid he was 2 years ago and you'd be amazed at how he's growing.

(now I have a lump...I have so much guilt for not being supermom during that time...I should've let the waynerds rot and sucked it all up, but instead I cratered...ungh!)
indarkness: Don't do anything that you may later regret. Acting impulsively out of anger is never a good idea. You need to calm down, sit down and come up with a plan, and then stick to that plan.

Do tell the kids tonight. Obviously, they are already being exposed to your WW's behavior, so not telling them makes no sense at all.

By the way, keep the emails. Print them out. They could come in very handy if this goes to Plan D in helping you to get custody of the kids. You do not want WW and OM raising your kids in your house on your dime.
ID - ***edit***

Please keep an eye out - your 20 month old may in fact "remember".
Originally Posted by indarkness
OK, I am now about to go ballistic...

I just read an e-mail exchange between OM and WW that said they were having sex in my car when my 20 month old was in there with them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

##!!$$????##@@

This marriage is over. My wife is psychotic.

I am going to bring that [censored] down.

Print out the email. DO NOT TELL ANYONE. Go straight to your attorney's office. Do not talk to friends, do not talk to family. It will be expensive but $200 spent in a session with your attorney will do a lot to calm your emotions and see things how the law looks at it than having your friends egg you on to do something dumb. The OM may be a [censored] but unless she was raped, your WW allowed it to happen.

If I were you, I would file an order of protection against your WW. In it, stipulate that you get the home, primary residency of the children, and supervised visition for your WW. It clearly shows she does not have the children's best interest in mind with her shagging the OM in front of the kids.
ID,
If they don't know you're reading their emails, don't tip them off!! THis is all stuff that will go in front of the judge, so let them dig their graves.
Regarding the kids--DD is about to find out that SHE IS BEING REPLACED WITH ANOTHER DD (or DS). This OC is not her sibling. It's the baby her mommy made during an affair with POS-OM. Not discounting the fact that the baby will be born innocent, its very existence is a threat to YOUR children's well being.
You NEED to let them know ALL of this. Including the OC growing in mommy's tummy. Seriously.
And save the email about the SF with the child in the car. That's child abuse. How can this woman claim to be at all Christian. She and the POS-OM are amoral. There's a special place in hell for people like this.
Originally Posted by PSUBIKER
Originally Posted by indarkness
OK, I am now about to go ballistic...

I just read an e-mail exchange between OM and WW that said they were having sex in my car when my 20 month old was in there with them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

##!!$$????##@@

This marriage is over. My wife is psychotic.

I am going to bring that [censored] down.

Print out the email. DO NOT TELL ANYONE. Go straight to your attorney's office. Do not talk to friends, do not talk to family. It will be expensive but $200 spent in a session with your attorney will do a lot to calm your emotions and see things how the law looks at it than having your friends egg you on to do something dumb. The OM may be a [censored] but unless she was raped, your WW allowed it to happen.

If I were you, I would file an order of protection against your WW. In it, stipulate that you get the home, primary residency of the children, and supervised visition for your WW. It clearly shows she does not have the children's best interest in mind with her shagging the OM in front of the kids.

Listen to our Biker here. Get in to the lawyer NOW!

Your wife has jeapordized the children and you have PROOF!
Ditto Delean-De!
It's OK. I'm calm. No one knows, except here. I've already got a call into the lawyer. He's in court, will be out in 30 minutes or so.

I'm glad I talked to the OM the other night cuz I might have called him today in a rage. Now that urge is gone completely.

The kids will know tonight, that is for damn sure.

Sorry, I can't be with someone that would do something so unbelievably heinous. It's time for plan D.
Kids won't know specifics I mean, just about A.
Good work. Stay calm. DON'T let them know you're monitoring anything. Don't change your behavior with your WW. When you look at her, you'll want to spit in her face, probably, but DON'T do it.
I knew about my H's A for about a WEEK before I said anything. I got on here, got my ducks in a row, and got ready with the heavy wood. When the time came, I whacked him so darned hard with ALL the evidence, he crumbled.
Wait until the Bishop reads this one. (But don't show it yet, because the folks in the church won't be able to keep their mouths shut.)
Lawyer should be able to handle this one. If she tries to deny any of this stuff, remind her that she's going to be asked UNDER OATH. If she thinks she's going to hell now, just wait.
This may not be possible, and perhaps someone with more experience could chime in here on the legalities and all, but is there someplace that you could take the kids to for a couple of days just to get you and them out of this situation? Maybe you could go to visit your parents or some friends? It might do you good to get away and clear your head and think without constantly having to be hit over the head with your WW's actions. And it would certainly be good for the kids not to have to be exposed to all of this.
>It's time for plan D.


I totally understand.

Do you have anyone IRL close to you to talk to about this? Can you speak to your Bishop?

I'm so sorry ID.
Unbelievable. At 20 months old, that baby is old enough to understand that the guy that mommy is "wrestling" with is not his daddy. Under the measure the law uses, "the best interest of the child", your WS has failed miserably. You have GREAT ammo to get full custody based on this behavior.
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
You have GREAT ammo to get full custody based on this behavior.

I sure hope so.
When you talk to the lawyer, see about getting a restraining order to keep OM away from your children. This man has exposed himself in front of your kid....I don't care how "discreet" they tried to be.

If I were you, I'd try to see if you can't file with the police, too...there should be some law that says a grown men can't have sex in front of other people's kids, right?
Shoot...hook HER up, too.

Have you thought about going to the police?
I'm going to let the lawyer guide me. He's a good man. They have no idea anything is up. So I have time on my side right now. Believe me. This is going to go down quickly.
Once you've used the email to your legal extent, ask your lawyer if it's ok if you send it to the bishop. This ought to bring some serious 2x4s from the community. She needs to hit ROCK BOTTOM now.
Eventually they will try to lie their way out of the content of that email.

They will say they KNEW you were reading it.

Strategize with your lawyer. It's likely you won't want to bring up that precise email UNTIL you have her in a deposition where you can ask the question and THEN drop the email as a bombshell. She won't have time to conjure up the lie and by that time the excuse "we knew BH was reading" won't hold water since they CONTINUED all their communicating on that same email account.

It would help if you were to get some corroborating evidence. Even personal notes about yesterday that you can use yourself on the witness stand or in deposition to specificy recall the timeline of yesterday. A timeline confirming that wife was NOT home and her whereabouts unknown during the period of time in question. As much as you don't want to call OM...you COULD consider it, record it (if you are in a one party recording state) and get him to provide you further corroboration.

Also...be careful of privacy laws. Discuss such with your attorney carefully. As I recall, didn't your wife give you access to all her emails and she just forgot? Isn't your snooping really consentual, since she knows you've got a keylogger on the home computer (for the kids sake) and since the keylogger is consented to...aren't it's reports consented to?

Be smart and be calm.

Mr. W
Neither keylogger nor e-mail access have been consensual. Again, I am going to let the lawyer guide me.
Okay, I know you may not want to hear this right now, but here are some things to consider. I'm not even sure if you would still want to save your M, but if you do, there may still be hope. I know, the situation seems pretty hopeless right now, but I'm sure my H felt that way at one time.

I haven't shared a lot of what the 6 months of my A was like on here, mostly because that was 2 years ago, and I don't like to relive it. But I'm going to share it now, just so you can see that sometimes, even the most hopeless situations work out.

During the 6 mos. of my A, my emotions literally bounced around like a yo-yo. I wanted to work on my M, then I wanted a D, then I wanted to go off by myself for awhile without any contact with OM or my H to figure things out. I went back and forth between these extremes at an alarming rate. It seemed at times that I would just never be able to make a decision and stick to it. I started having thoughts of suicide because I really couldn't handle being on the roller coaster anymore and there didn't seem to be any way to get off.

When I was in my A, I did some pretty despicable things. The OM and I exchanged a hoard of extremely graphic and inappropriate emails, including very pornographic pictures. My A started in July, during my residency at our school, and within a few days, OM and I both returned to our respective homes, 3000 miles apart, so our A was mostly long-distance. After many months of nagging and begging, I convinced my H that I needed to go back East and see the OM so that I could "figure things out and find out what I really wanted." I made the trip in November, on my H's dime, where I proceeded to have a romantic weekend with the OM at a very nice hotel (at least that part was paid for by OM). I returned from that trip and told my H that I wanted a D and was going to marry the OM. The OM and I even announced to all of our friends at our school that we were going to get married.

Not long after, when the OM started talking about moving to CA to be with me, I began to have doubts. He wanted to move into my house as soon as my H left and "be a father to my kids." The thought terrified me. I finally woke up and started locating at least a few of my rational senses.

Luckily, my H was willing to give me another chance. I don't know why, but I thank God everyday that he did. Thinking about my actions during my A still makes me sick. It made me sick just typing that. But I felt that I needed to share that, just to point out that, even when things seem at their darkest, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Your light may lead to a recovered M, or it may not. I can't predict the future. I'll admit that things look pretty bad for your M right now, but I'm sure they looked pretty bad for mine too when I was in Vermont banging the OM while my H stayed home with the kids.

You need to protect yourself and your kids right now. Your WW isn't in her rational mind. Yes, she is psychotic. But, this psychosis isn't necessarily permanent. There is still hope that she may snap out of it. What you decide to do when and if she does is completely up to you.
Writer, you say it was the "be a father to your kids" line that made you do a gut check? Why is that? Had you not considered that the POS-OM (a.k.a. greatest guy ever at that time) would become the new daddy? Was it guilt about taking the kids from your H?
Reason I'm asking is because you seem to identify with this WW in ways I cannot. Maybe some of the things that gave you pause will help wake up this woman. Short of physical violence, I'm all out of ideas. And clearly, that was joke folks. I don't want to beat her up. Well, yes I do, but I wouldn't. wink
I didn't want to mention this because there has been no positive diagnosis but last night I went to see the marriage counselor that WW and I had seen last week. I went alone, WW was at home having e-mail sex with OM.

Anyways, 2 minutes into the meeting, counselor starts asking me a series of questions and about 3 questions into it I realize what she is asking. She believes that my wife suffers from Bipolar Disorder. She says "your wife has all the markers.." and lists off a series of symptoms.

I've had several people ask me about this but I never really considered it before now. One thing I haven't brought up on this board and which was only confirmed to me about a week ago is that my wife has tried to have an affair at least one time prior and looking back I now suspect at least 3 or four other incidences. It's scary. Because hearing the symptoms and reading about it just brings everything into place. Risky sexual behavior has been my wife's fantasy from the time we were first married. Not with other people, but in public places, that kind of thing. Of course I never wanted that. And now, having sex in front of a baby. Well, crap. That's just sick. But to someone with BPD, I mean, who knows.

I'm not justifying anything. But if this becomes a true diagnosis, writer1, it might change my mind on forgiveness. But who knows. I'm still way emotional right now.

Still, I thought I would throw this out because it certainly seems applicable now.
There is another FWW on this site - lurioosi2 - who was diagnosed bi-polar. She got treatment and her and her BH are still together and in recovery. You may want to look up some of her threads. I'm not sure how many of them were lost in the recent site crash, but she may be of some assistance to you in understanding this condition.

Imanotherone: I think I do understand (or at least am trying to understand) some of this WW's thought processes. I don't know why that is. There's a lot about this thread that reminds me of my own situation, I guess.

I think what made me ultimately snap out of fog was two-fold. 1) I started to realize that OM would never be an acceptable part of my life - not to my kids, or my family, or my friends. OM made it sound so simple - I would get a D and he would move into my house and we would be one big happy family. My kids could live with us. His kids could spend the summers and holidays with us. Everything would be great. Only, it wasn't. I tried to imagine going to church with OM, or just walking through the grocery store and running into someone who knew me and my H, and I couldn't do it. OM seemed to have no problem simply taking over my H's place in my life and my kids lives, but I had all kinds of problems with it. It just seemed fundamentally wrong to me, and no amount of justifications would work against it.

2) Probably won't apply in indarkness's case, because his story is different, but for me, the real thing that saved my M was the realization that my H actually loved me. You see, before my A, I really didn't believe that he did. He was involved in a 10-year EA with an ex-girlfriend that started 1 week after our wedding. I won't get into the details, but there were many instances where he lied about so many things, would break off the EA, start it up again and lie about, start feeling guilty and confess, etc. etc. I never felt special to my H because of this. I always felt like #2 in his heart. I just came to accept that this ex-girlfriend was the love of my H's life and that he may never feel for me what he felt for her. It took seeing how hard my H fought to save our M after I revealed my A for me to finally start to believe that he may be able to feel for me what I had always wanted him to feel. I haven't brought that up before, because I didn't think it really applied to indarkness's situation.

Dr. Harley, on telling the kids:

Quote
Some feel that an affair should not be exposed to children. Granted, I would not tell a 3-year old about an affair, simply because a child that young cannot possibly understand what it means. But I would not hesitate to reveal an affair to a child 7 years or older. Exposure to those between those ages should be a matter of discretion.
I have bipolar disorder, and I had my affair while manic. That is not a reason or justification, just a fact. I was not clinically psychotic, so I am not sure if that would make a difference. But I still believe that it was a choice I made. Yes, I had all the symptoms of mania. But I was attracted to OM before that time. Something happens to the manic mind...it's hard to explain. I will say that I will NEVER be one of those who goes off meds. I don't ever want to go down that road.

Even if she is diagnosed, she will need to be willing to do a lot of work to be the kind of wife and mother she should be. It's not just about pills; it's about choices too.
If the MC can give a clinical diagnosis, this could also be used for an order of protection to stay away from the kids. Do this ONLY if you truly believe there is BPD.
My H's scumbag lawyer told him to accuse me of being unmedicated BPD in an order of protection and I had to face an inquisition from family services as a result. They saw right through it, but still, it's an abuse of the system if you don't TRULY believe the diagnosis.
Still no excuse for sociopathic behavior you're witnessing. This woman has some DEEP problems.
Just talked to lawyer. Filing for divorce ASAP before she runs off to orange county and tries to file there.

Lawyer says judge will likely see the one time in front of DS as a "discretion" but it will definitely sway custody issues. Also the fact that 3 of my DC go to school within a 1/4 mile of my house will prevent WW from running off and if she does it will be to her detriment.

MANY MANY Betrayed's show up here wondering if their spouse is mentally ill.

I did too. My wife's father was bipolar (now deceased). He had it real bad and suffered severe mania cyclically for about 5-6 months every 3 years. I wasn't until years later that the pattern revealled itself (obviously the first few times don't appear cyclical because there is no pattern...yet).

So looking at PAST behaviors is a good thing to do PRIMARILY because ALL waywards exhibit the characteristics of Bi-Polar, Narcissim and Borderline Personality Disorder. One thing to remember, all the diagnostic indicators require that you FIRST rule out substance addictions PRIOR to analyzing the criterea. Well...I consider the waywardness a psuedo-addiction. Sure, it's not a substance addiction but it sure mimics one so I don't think you can look exclusively at her behavior right now as indicating she's mentally ill..

You mentioned the high risk sexual stuff for years. What else?
Bi-polars are all unique in their manifestation of illness, but the things I saw my Father in Law do for years and what I've heard and read about the illness I thought I'd give some of my other tell-tale signs:

1. Racing - when they are manic...their thoughts race. They go off on tangents all the time. They can't stop talking and meeting up with all sorts of people to talk. Often they THINK they are networking and setting up the next big business deal...often the DEAL OF THE CENTURY. They hardly sleep at all during these periods (whereas when they cycle to depression they sleep all day and night). You'll find them writing letters to congressmen and past friends often at 3 in the morning.

2. Delusions of grandeur. They strongly believe they are the most intelligent persons in the world. The SPEND like a Rockfellar on the most stupid things (FIL rented a limo to drive him around for a month). Everything they do or make is the BEST. They invest in bogus schemes and get taken advantage of by anyone clever enough to hang around them long enough.

3. Wierd associatiions. They bring home strangers for dinner. Hire a chef to come cook dinner. You'll discover them talking for hours...seriously, with the bum on the street or even telemarketers on the phone.

4. Succesful. Bipolars have an inate drive. The mania likely has been around for years and only becomes a problem later in life when life's pressure abound. What I mean is that it's generally not a problem until it's a problem. For months leading up to full blown mania, they can work 20 hour days, 7 days a week. They can sell anything to anyone and generally make lots of money. Ted Turner is a bi-polar. So are LOTS of successful businessmen, artists and politicians. Their drive and creativity is unmatched by us lesser people. They are gregarious individuals who are and have been very dynamic people for years. They are often high respected and highly admired by others.

5. Eventually, the racing thoughts & lack of sleep reaches a boiling point where paranoia and psychosis kicks in. They detach from reality and REALLY start to go nuts. They TRY to control themselves for appearances sake to the outside world, but they will drive their family nuts (whom they will later gaslight to the outside world as the problem, not them). They will attempt to control every aspect of their spouses and kids lives. They will attempt to monopolize the family by engaging in "family conversations" which have no purpose, they will take away the family phone, barracade the door and take away everyone's keys. They always like to be in contol so they've already set the stage by having EVERYTHING in their own name so no one can complain or escape. They will deny they have a problem to the bitter end...even AFTER the mania subsides and the damage all around them financially and relationally is SOOO apparent. They LIVE in denial (men more often than women as women are MUCH more likely to medicate whereas men are much more likely to commit suicide or die an early death after a heart attack like my FIL at age 60).

6. Depression - they come down eventually and have trouble functioning at all, bi-polar women typically tend more towards the depressive side so I'd imagine their "cycles" include much more depression.

7. Bi polar runs in families. It's genetic. I've heard through the mother but I have no idea if that is true. I've also heard some people may have it (genetically) and never exhibit the illness. I've heard it considered that there are typically triggering effects in a person's life that somehow trigger the genetic defect to manifest. Again...no idea on this one.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Is the computer the FAMILY COMPUTER. Can you claim ownership of that computer. Surely you are allowed to keylog your own computer even if it's jointly owned?
Originally Posted by indarkness
Just talked to lawyer. Filing for divorce ASAP before she runs off to orange county and tries to file there.

Lawyer says judge will likely see the one time in front of DS as a "discretion" but it will definitely sway custody issues. Also the fact that 3 of my DC go to school within a 1/4 mile of my house will prevent WW from running off and if she does it will be to her detriment.


Then you better lay low and not make this a race to the courthouse. Don't give your wife any inclination you are filing.

Also...since it's just an "indescretion", again, you may want to sit on it and see if you can get her to lie under oath about it. Then you have the indescretion AND perjury going for you.

Strategize with your attorney.

Sorry you are going through this.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - whether she is bi-polar or not...at some point, getting OM to believe she is or might be is just another burden to place upon him which accumulate until he throws in the towel. You MAY choose to hint at this when you expose more to HIS family. Nothing like his momma or daddy calling him out and asking what he's doing with this married "crazy" girl. Since she's wayward she'll certainly help by playing the part of a bi-polar so even if you are wrong, medically speaking, it won't appear that way to others.
The BPD diagnosis is all very preliminary which is why I was hesitant to bring it up. It certainly is not "extreme" as to MrW but the symptoms certainly appear to be there. For now, I'm gonna kind of ignore it until I know more.

Yes, now is the time to lie low. Staying cool until papers are officially fired then the SHTF. Pregnant WW getting served with divorce papers. She's going to freak out.
Your lawyer can order psych evals for both of you - that way there can be a diagnosis officially on the record.

ļæ½ļæ½"trust your parental instincts." But she also pointed out that in young children, the frontal cortex (logic center of the brain) is still developing. Their emotional core (temporal lobe??? i forget) is fully developed.ļæ½ļæ½

Do you want a bottle in front of you

or

a frontal lobotomy?

Front lube, back lobe, side lobe, top or bottom lobes. Lobes smobes!

Children can handle the truth.

Children need the truth.

Your child needs the truth to understand what is happening and why. Also who is responsible. And itļæ½s important for a child to learn that infidelity is wrong. Develop their ability to discern right and wrong.

Tell the child that mom is a WW?
I wonder if Plan D is the right decision at this point?

I mean, this site is all about avoiding D wherever possible given the very real harm it inflicts upon families, particularly children.

What my wife did was disgusting and horrible and is difficult to forgive but what's my motivation for D? Is it to protect my children? Is it to save my marriage with the hope that the threat of D will be a 2x4? Is it to get back at the OM somehow?

I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing for the right reasons. This is no small decision.

BTW, I told my oldest DS tonight. He gets it but didn't seem overly phased by it. I'm not sure if he's going to confront WW or not. He's pretty low on confrontation so probably not. I just hope it doesn't eat him up inside. I told him he can talk to me anytime, anywhere, no questions asked. Damn. Parenting is hard enough without all this other crap to worry about. Gonna need to keep an eye on him to make sure he's dealing ok with it.
Originally Posted by indarkness
I mean, this site is all about avoiding D wherever possible given the very real harm it inflicts upon families, particularly children.

I didn't get that impression. It was more for those of us who *want* to make our M's better.
What exactly did you tell your 11-year-old? I have a hard time believing that finding out that mommy wants to uproot you and move in with a new daddy was not unsettling.
Also, there's nothing that says you actually have to DIVORCE. Just filing for divorce protects you and your kids from WW's behavior. It creates a legal record of what is going on. It keeps her from fleeing the area with your kids in tow.
"What exactly did you tell your 11-year-old?"

Exactly!

What did you say?

You only expose one child. Doing things half-but will get you no where.
Is mommy's tummy starting to show yet? How ya gonna address that one? Come on! Go all in, or don't go at all. You've probably just confused the boy is all. Make him feel SAFE with you. Make him aware that mommie is not to be trusted right now.
I think the people on here urging you to go Plan D are doing so to protect you and your COM's if your WW should happen to file for D first, or attempt to just take the children and leave. Some of them have been burned in similar situations and don't want to see that happen to you.

Only you can decide which is the best way for you to go. My H didn't attempt to protect himself at all during my A. He didn't contact a lawyer or threaten to file for D. In fact, he even said on a number of occasions that he would move out and let me have the house if that was what I really wanted. From a legal standpoint, his actions may not have been wise, but in our case, it worked. The more he showed me unconditional love, the more I doubted what I was doing. I firmly believe that it was this total and complete show of love that brought me back. It couldn't have been easy for him, especially when I was begging him to let me go back East to see the OM. He bought my plane ticket. He drove me to the airport. I have no idea how he found the strength to keep loving me through everything I did.

There are no guarantees in any of this. I can't tell you that your WW is going to come back like I did. It is a huge gamble if you decide to throw everything into saving your M. There is a lot at stake. Only you are in a position to decide what is best for you and your COM's. Pray about it. Pray very hard.
You should file and protect yourself. The statistics are way way against the approach that writer's H took. Most marriages with an A end, I bet the D stats with an OC are ridiculously high.

You don't have to be a jerk about it but you need to take the approach that you are going to keep you and the children safe.

6yearsleft: I'm sure the statistics don't look good. But, there are others on here whose M's have survived, even with an OC. I said it was a gamble. Sometimes gambles pay off. Sometimes they don't. I'm sure if my H had found this site while I was involved in my A, he would have gotten much the same advice, and our story might have turned out differently.

Really, only indarkness can make this decision. He's the one who is there, in his home, so he's probably in the best position to get a feel for which direction this seems to be going. This is his family.

I'm not saying he shouldn't file for D and I'm not saying he should. All I said was that he should take some time to think about it and pray about it before he makes a decision. This is a big step, and one that shouldn't be taken lightly or jumped into without a lot of careful consideration.
Writer, did you have sex with the OM in front of one of your children? I didn't think so. This one is a lot further gone than you were.
Imanothernone: No, I didn't. But then, at the time of my A, my youngest child was 13, so that would have been far and beyond inappropriate, don't you think?

I don't know how far gone indarkness's WW is. Neither do you. He's in a much better place to judge that than you or I.

I am only urging him to think things through and carefully consider the situation and pray about it before he makes a decision. I'm not telling him what to do - though others seem to have no problem with that.

Indarkness: Have you talked to your bishop lately? Our bishop was a great help and support to my H (and even to me) during my A. Even if your WW doesn't want to talk to him, you should. No matter what you decide, it is important to get support for you and your children right now, and the church can be a great source of support. You may want to have your son talk to him as well. Often, kids will open up more to a trusted adult who is not their parent. It would be good for your son to have someone to talk to. You should probably talk to your 8 year-old daughter soon too, especially since you suspected that your WW might be involving her somehow. I think I remember you mentioning that. Dr. Harley recommends telling kids over 7 about the A, using age-appropriate terms, of course.
Originally Posted by writer1
6yearsleft: I'm sure the statistics don't look good. But, there are others on here whose M's have survived, even with an OC.

Writer1, your BH is a clear, clear exception to the rule. Most men will NOT accept a situation where they're bringing up an OM's child, i.e. one that was conceived while their WW was being unfaithful to them. It's almost a primitive biological imperative to not do so. You should thank your lucky stars every day that you have a BH like you do, one who's willing to accept a situation like that. It does not happen very often at all.
writer, I agree that you and your H are extremely lucky that both of you were able to work through this. Perhaps because you were both betrayed and wayward, you could understand the situation better.
Indarkness has never been wayward, nor has his wife ever been betrayed. Therefore, Indarkness's WW does not have as much perspective as you.
Also, she's uneducated, about to be kicked out of her church, shunned by all around her, with no marketable skills. Not exactly the makings of someone who will be making rational decisions anytime soon.
I think your perspective is great, given that you can offer hope of how good it could get, but please, please know that yours is a very, very, VERY rare exception, for many reasons. I think Indarkness is doing himself a disservice if he thinks that his wife is coming to her senses any time soon. Nothing she's done has shown him that.
And as Petitioner (the 1st one to file) you'll have the option later on to dismiss (non-suit) the case if that's what you choose to do and your WW would have to pay to refile. As Petitioner, you basically control the case. The benefit of filing is that you get temporary orders on file stating that she can't spend community funds unnecessarily, and it determines who has custody, sets out visitation guidelines, etc.

Right now, the presumption is that you BOTH have equal and joint custody to the children. If she took off with them right now, the only thing you could do would be to file for divorce/custody and WAIT for the Court to act, if they will.

Filing would also send her the message that you are taking this seriously and will do whatever is necessary to protect the family.

In my own situation, I non-suited just days before the divorce was to be final.
Thanks for all the replies. This is messy. If there were a clear direction I think we would all be in agreement.

I am going to meet the lawyer today and the paperwork will be drawn up so that it is ready for filing. I need more legal advice, I only talked for a few minutes yesterday. I'm hoping that today will yield more fruit. My mindset follows PM - filing does not make a D final, particularly in CA where its a 6 month period. However, it puts control in my hands which I very much want, particularly given WW current state.

The Church has been *extremely* supportive. Without it, I have no clue where I would be right now. I talk to the Bishop probably on a daily basis. Although he can't condone divorce, he thinks talking to the lawyer and being ready to file is the best thing I can do right now.

The reality is that nothing is breaking through the fog. NC has been tried five times, all abysmal failures within 2 days. WW is exhibiting behavior that is, in my mind, beyond immoral. She shows absolutely no remorse to anyone, even her closest friends. Outside of plan D, what more is there to do beyond wait for the affair to die, which it may not? And in the meantime I now have to constantly be on my guard to protect my children and I'm concerned about the impact this is going to have on my job.

I could go into Plan B, but then I lose the ability to protect my kids and frankly I just don't see it being all that effective with my WW.

This is exhausting.
Make sure you attorney gives you the best plan to help you have legal control over the children, now. Once these types of things are in motion it will give you more power, which you will need if she decides to go the D route. It also won't hurt if she wants to come home. It will also place any other orders she seeks in a negative light.


Yup, exactly right 6years.
I also wanted to say something to Writer,

I think it is terrible advice to tell someone in this circumstance to ignore the statistics, or even to place any weight on anecdotal stories. That is how people get convinced to do lots of stupid things. We all want hope, and everyone wants to believe they are the 1 in 1000. Unfortunately 999 of them will be wrong.




6yearsleft: I never said to ignore the statistics. Please don't put words in my mouth. I simply pointed out that some M's do recover, even with an OC. I'm not the only one on this board who has done so.

Indarkness: I think I suggested this before, but I'll put it out there again. If you haven't already done so, read the Pregnancy/Child forum on this site. Really, your thread belongs over there. I think there are some people over there who could really help you and I'm not sure how many of them read this part of the site. Most of them have dealt with an A that involves an OC. Their advice was invaluable to me when I first found this site. You might consider posting your story over there and hearing what they have to say.
Writer,

Quote
6yearsleft: I'm sure the statistics don't look good. But, there are others on here whose M's have survived, even with an OC. I said it was a gamble. Sometimes gambles pay off. Sometimes they don't. I'm sure if my H had found this site while I was involved in my A, he would have gotten much the same advice, and our story might have turned out differently.

Ok, no words in your mouth, I read you posting as a call for him to look at a bunch of anecdotal stories instead of relying on the statistics. I'm saying he needs to be more hard headed than that. and consider the statistics. Which I will try to dig up.

I would hesitate moving your thread to that forum for one reason: your wife is still in an active affair. You're not working together to deal with the issues of co-parenting an OC. Right now, writer seems obsessed with the OC in mommy's tummy. Well, I'm focussing on indarkness and HIS children. To be honest, mommy will do what she will do, and she may take the OC to live a life of sin with the OM. But don't you dare drag those precious indarkness children with her. The law may not protect the OC, but it CAN protect the children who have been born already and belong with indarkness.
I would encourage indarkness to post over on the other forum and read a bunch to see what he might face and prepare himself, but for now, its the children HE fathered that need protection.
6yearsleft: And I was simply directing him to another part of this forum which contains the real-life stories of other couples that have survived the birth of an OC and gone on to recover their M's. If you don't believe they exist, go over to the Pregnancy/Child forum and read them for yourself.
Originally Posted by writer1
6yearsleft: And I was simply directing him to another part of this forum which contains the real-life stories of other couples that have survived the birth of an OC and gone on to recover their M's. If you don't believe they exist, go over to the Pregnancy/Child forum and read them for yourself.
Exactly my point as to why he should definitely READ over there, but the REALITY is here: his wife is trying to steal his children and is trying to make a new life with the OM and her OC. PERIOD. To ignore those facts, indarkness will be putting his family in grave danger. Sure, the train heading down the tracks may swerve or stop, but STATISTICALLY, he's gonna lose his family if he doesn't kick it into gear NOW.
Imanotherone: The Pregnancy/Child forum isn't only for people who are in recovered M's. There are people over there in all stages of the game. It is for anyone dealing with an A, at any stage, that involves an OC.

By the way, I am not "obsessed" with anything. I am concerned for indarkness's entire family - including him, his WW, his COM's and the OC.
Let's agree to disagree, writer. I don't give ANY concern to the WW right now. I give VERY LITTLE concern to OC right now. I give some concern to indarkness right now, but he's an adult. I give EXTREME concern to the existing children. They were supposedly the WW's whole life. She dropped out of high school to start a family and she has four wonderful kids she's throwing away here. Lest you forget, google "Andrea Yates" on Wikipedia. This is an unstable woman with nowhere to go. Indarkness has a moral obligation to protect his children. Russell Yates ignored those who told him to protect his children.
I'm not saying that mrs. indarkness is homicidal, but she just had sex in front of an almost-two-year-old. For god's sake! Isn't that a red flag to you?
Writer,

I believe they exist, obviously. I also believe they are the exception to the rule. I do not think it is wise for him to spend time reading about the very few who have succeeded. That could make him think it is common, when it is not.

Stats are hard to find from any reliable studies but several say 85% get divorced from all affairs with significantly higher when Wife is the cheater, and even high when OC is involved.




I wanted to also say that until he makes a decision the OC is most definitely NOT a part of his family.
Originally Posted by 6yearsleft
Stats are hard to find from any reliable studies but several say 85% get divorced from all affairs with significantly higher when Wife is the cheater, and even high when OC is involved.

..and I'm sure the stats are likely higher if you increase the sample to cover those BHs a few years or so out from D-Day, y'know, once the fight to bring the WW back into the M is mostly over.
This is the last I have to say on this.

Here is my advice to indarkness: Pray for guidance, seek support from the church, talk to the lawyer and receive legal advice, do what needs to be done to protect yourself and your COM while you figure out where it is that you want to go from here, and read the Pregnancy/Child forum so that you can learn from others who have been through this before.

If anyone disagrees with that, fine. Feel free to disagree.

And yes, I think that having sex in front of a 20 month old baby is wrong. I do not, however, think it is anywhere near along the lines of a homicidal maniac who killed her own children because she claims that God told her to. That's a bit of a jump, don't you think? Perhaps we should stick to the situation at hand. Indarkness's WW is deep in the fog of her A and there is no doubt that she is making poor choices. That doesn't mean that she intends to do bodily harm to her children. I haven't seen anything in indarkness's posts to suggest that his WW is having homicidal thoughts toward her kids. If there was even the remotest inclination of something like that, I would be the first person to advise him to take the kids and run.

For me, the most difficult thing I had to do when I came to this forum was to separate the helpful advise from the not-so-helpful. There are extremes on both ends of the spectrum here - and some very bitter, hateful people, I hate to admit. I am simply presenting a middle-ground - a voice of reason. I don't think it is ever a bad idea to come up with a rational, well-thought-out plan of action rather than reacting first and thinking later. That is what I hope indarkness will do.
Darkness,

Seems like you have alot to consider. Let us know what the lawyer has to say about your options.
writer, if you had done what I said and actually read Andrea Yates' story, you will see that the drowning of the kids was not an isolated incident. There was a pattern of destructive behavior, starting with her feelings of extreme isolation that started YEARS before the event we all read about that day.
Guess who supported her husband in his actions to deny his wife was in crisis? The church.
Read the Yates story. There's a lot more to it than the drownings, I swear. There's a lesson in it for all of us. No, most crises don't reach that level, but so much pain can be avoided if we keep our eyes open.
Writer,

Indarkness is in a very precarious situation LEGALLY. The problem is he is no longer dealing with a WW, he's dealing with a WW and an OM who wants a new family. That is a very dangerous combination when it comes to Indarkness' future. I'm dealing with a very similar situation.

His WW is in a very, very strong position legally when it comes to playing the divorce game. If Indarkness plays doormat and moves out like your husband offered, he will lose custody of the kids. That's the hard, cold, reality. A lot of people are bitter on this board because they have LIVED through the worst case scenarios. You did not. You got lucky. They HOPED things would resolve themselves instead of taking action and protecting their interests. Indarkness is dealing with a walk away wayward wife who has every intention of moving away and replacing him with her adultry partner as the primary father figure in the children's life.
PSUBIKER: I do realize that indarkness is in a precarious position. I would never advise him to move out of his house and leave his children. I don't think my H would have done that either, if push had come to shove.

I have heard from others on this board that many waywards threaten D, but that it never goes beyond the threats. Indarkness's WW, so far at least, has done very little to either walk away from her M or get indarkness out of the house. It seems as though she may be bluffing and not all that serious about the D. There is no way to know if she has any intentions of acting on her threats, except that, so far, she has not done so.

I do think that indarkness needs to protect himself and his COM. I think it's a good idea for him to at least talk to a lawyer and see where he stands legally. I also think it might be a good sign that so far, his WW seems to be more talk than action. If she were dead set on leaving her H or replacing him with the OM, she probably would have done something about it by now. She is still fence-sitting. There is still a chance for this M to R. It is not at all a given, of course, it's just a chance, however small.

That's all I have been saying. I'm sorry if it bothers people when I offer a small ray of hope for this M. No one else seems willing to do that.
Writer - Also want to add because darkness being a father and not a mother and his WW is a SAHM in California. Add that the SAHM has no skill set for employment and lack of education....

He will most likely pay substantial spousal support and child support and hopefully get 50% custody. Thousands per month for quite some time. Not good.

Thats the way it rolls for the men most of time. His wife has the power to alter his living standard and with 2 decades of continual interaction with custody - more emotional abuse. Dont you think she may even get some coaching from the OM.

But nevertheless - he has get the ball rolling now to prevent further disaster. He needs to detached from this scene quickly. I am not sure he can protect his children - i have doubts that the system will be able to do it.

Usually an OM heads for the hills in this kind of a sitch because he was only looking for some tail - this OM is an emotional mess - Be careful.

My friend - I am in your corner and will pray for a miracle for you.

rwinger: Exactly why I am still hoping and praying that this M can be saved. It is going to get messy and ugly and expensive if this goes to D. CA is a no-fault state. Even if indarkness files first, his chances of coming out of this unscathed are slim. Unless he can prove that his WW is mentally unstable or a danger to her children, the best he can hope for is 50% custody. There will be many years of paying huge sums of CS. That won't change, no matter who files or when they do it.
Writer - that's what I hope by ID getting a psych eval as part of the custody mediation - she IS "off".

A woman has to be completely mentally lost to have sex with a child in the room!

I'm not one to tout out the psych evals, but this is not a marriage recovery until WW gets a mental recovery and a spiritual recovery.

Writer - since you read a lot, have you read "The Worth of Every Soul" - an autobiographical sketch of the slide into waywardness and excommunication and back to God?
I haven't read "The Worth of Every Soul." Besides this site, I don't really delve into the topic of A very much anymore. Honestly, I have to watch how much I come on this site even, because all of the stories and the new people showing up everyday with the same problems can get me down at times. Maybe I will try to read it someday. These days, I'm trying really hard to look toward the future and leave the ugly things of the past in the past.

I think indarkness already brought up the fact that his WW had sex in front of the baby with the OM and the lawyer said that the courts would likely view it as a fairly minor indiscretion. It's unfortunate, but I don't think it will get him very far in a court here in CA. Unless he can prove that she is actually harming the children or putting their lives in danger, abuse would be hard to prove in this case. Unfortunately, merely having bad morals doesn't seem to make a person an unfit parent in the eyes of the law. I'm not saying I agree with any of this. I definitely don't, but this is what indarkness will be up against if he does end up in D. It's terrible, because it's always the kids that get hurt the most in situations like this. If only his WW could take a moment to consider what she's doing to her children. However, I realize that may not happen. She may be too far gone. I hope she isn't, because it's going to be a very messy situation that will affect a lot of people for a long time.
There are two reasons I bring up the book - for you and for ID.

1. The book is about recovery and reconciliation with God and the pathway back to full fellowship in the Church.

2. The personal spiritual protections that were afforded your husband and are also available to ID if he can find that peaceful place in the middle of this chaos his WW has created.

You might benefit from seeing WHY your husband could accept your child as his own and forgive you.

It's a beautiful book and as a betrayed spouse it gave me great comfort, and it also helped me be patient with my husband. For my husband, it gave him a path back to his faith.

ID's wife truly needs to know there is a path back. She's hardened right now. But she's going to hurt some day. God has a way back for his lost lamb.

By the time his WW finds this soft place in her heart, their marriage may have long been over. But she will always be the mother of his children, and at the point her heart becomes softened, if ID has read the book, he may find himself being a missionary and an instrument in the hand of God in restoring a soul to Him.
I'm a divorced father with complete 100% custody. It can be done. His lawyer can give him the best advice but maybe he should encourage her to go spend time with OM in order to establish an abandonment. I'm sure there are a million other techniques that would work better than a full on frontal assault.


Originally Posted by writer1
rwinger: Exactly why I am still hoping and praying that this M can be saved. It is going to get messy and ugly and expensive if this goes to D. CA is a no-fault state. Even if indarkness files first, his chances of coming out of this unscathed are slim. Unless he can prove that his WW is mentally unstable or a danger to her children, the best he can hope for is 50% custody. There will be many years of paying huge sums of CS. That won't change, no matter who files or when they do it.


lost my original reply -

There are no good choices for darkness. At the same time by filing first he gains some power in the direction of this marriage.

Its really her choice and she has made it for now. Could change but why take a chance. The OM is in fantasy land as well and has given up quite a bit for his takeover attempt.

By taking action - he will make his statement that darkness, in fact, will not just roll over while being abused. It will also protect his interests in the lives of his children.

If she files - then he will be living a nightmare where the OM could potentially be around the kids more then himself and Darkness will have less say in the lives of his children.

Darkness will have to deal with the OM and WW (whether they stay together or not or if there is reconciliation) for many years in the future no matter the path he takes. The OC is his children's half sibling and it sounds like this OM wants to be a part of the OC life.

My main concern is that if she decides to play hard ball and files a abuse claim to get him out of house then his world will get much more complicated and the outcome not so certain.

As for $$ - when it comes down to my kids - i will burn through my last dollar.


I don't remember reading that his lawyer said nothing could be done about the OM exposing himself in front of the child.

He has the proof. Even if his lawyer does not want to take action does not mean action can not be taken. The lawyer's skills can be weak, he does not want hard cases, he's only looking for the easy buck.

This BH needs to do a search for dads's rights in the state he lives in to find a lawyer that knows his stuff, and is willing to fight for him and his COM.
I do want to add one thing about a psych eval. Being diagnosed BP won't automatically mean she loses everything. A person who is BP who is in regular treatment is not automatically considered a hopeless mental case. In fact, if my H left tomorrow, he would be hard-pressed to get the kids based solely on the fact that I have BP because I take my meds and visit the doc and all that. So labeling her "crazy" is not a sure thing. This WW is obviously really unbalanced right now, but BP does not preclude the ability to be a good wife and mother.
This WW is not likely to accept such treatment because she'd deny the diagnosis, which would then play into full custody being awarded to ID on grounds that she's not safe - she's not playing with a full deck.

If she did go through tx, then she might just come to her senses and stop trying to destroy her children and her marriage.

Either way, ID wins.
writer, let's be clear about this: WW and OM did not have sex in front of a baby. A 20-month-old is a toddler. By 20 months, I was having full conversations with my children. That's not an infant.
This woman is SICK and is showing signs of desperation and there's nothing worse than a woman who has no options and no where to turn except the POS-OM.
I am going to repeat my earlier advice
Quote
You need to get some legal advice, not file for D or LS but get some advice! In our lovely state, your WW will get the kids and a huge chunk of support. The courts will not give a rats patootie that she is cheating or even that OM is living with her. All they will see is a SAHM needs $$$ from you. You need to find out immediately what steps you can take to get around that. My guess would be to get HER out of the house without the kids for a period of time so you can claim abandonment.
except at this point I would probably file for LS since you can change it to D without refiling in CA.
I would strongly encourage her to go. Go be with OM. Try it out. See if things work out -- you and the kids will stay in place. Give her no indication of your plan.

Then once you have her out -- you have the position of strength for custody.
Because ID is in such a precarious legal position -- with OM not only willing but DESIRING to replace him as father -- ID needs to gain as much leverage as possible for custody to protect these poor children from this situation.

That email in which he said your kids would be raised in a loving blah blah blah home was a hidden message to your wife. To let her know he was still "in" and waiting for her.

She isn't even CLOSE to her breaking point yet. Which means that you save yourself and your children first. You cannot try to recover the marriage until you get into a safe place first.

I agree with Lexxxy. Let WW go live with OM ALONE and see if she misses her kids. Could be she's so far gone she'll abandon them. Or, could be, she'll see that things will never be the same with the OM.
ID, what exactly did you tell your 11-year-old when you exposed?
ID,

If you encourage her to go and see how things are with the OM, do not put that in writing. Ask your lawyer, but Lexxy's plan seems like a good one to me. You could even provide her some funds etc.

Then after she is out, document everything, get your relatives to help with the children, etc. If you play nice then you may even get her to agree to grant you temporary 100% custody, which will be very hard for her to undo later.

Thanks for all the responses - I'm feelin' the love. smile

Talked to the lawyer yesterday. Paperwork will be signed tomorrow and filed on Monday. Barring an act of God my wife will be served with the papers on Tuesday. I plan on taking all of my children to my parents house prior to serving (someone else has to do it but I will be there) so that she won't freak out and try running off with the kids.

The filing gives me several protections but the most important is that it brings the courts into the relationship, for good or otherwise.

This means my wife cannot take the children out of state - that would legally be kidnapping. It also means that if my wife tries to take the kids somewhere within state I could get a court order to get them back to me with 72 hours. This is because my kids are near school, family and friends here. Lawyer says judge would not allow kids to be removed from that situation. Filing also places the venue in Los Angeles County which is advantageous for me.

My plan is to try and get WW out of the house and moved in with OM. OM is living with his parents in Westminster (a dump) and their culture is *completely* different from my WW. That and not being with my DC will perhaps jar her or not. At this point, I don't care, so long as she is out of the house. The alure of being with the OM will hopefully be stronger than the desire to remain with her children, but I don't know. If that plan fails then I will encourage her to stay with her sister who is a recent WW. Either way, she needs to be gone ASAP.

Lawyer said that if I can get her out of the house, then I need to change the locks ASAP. House is a rental but I am in good standing with the landlord so it should be OK.

I have *plenty* of help locally to assist with the kids while I work, so that's not a problem.

WW is off with OM right now. Thankfully I was able to keep 20-month old DS with me. Did my best to stop the hook-up but frankly, at this point I don't really care about those two, just my kids.

So, I'm just done with being trampled. Done with being used. Done with no consequences. Nothing is working. Nothing is happening. There is no desire for change by the WW. Like I said, short of an act of God, I plan on filing first thing Monday morning.
Quote
So, I'm just done with being trampled. Done with being used. Done with no consequences. Nothing is working. Nothing is happening. There is no desire for change by the WW. Like I said, short of an act of God, I plan on filing first thing Monday morning.
THIS is what women actually WANT from men, someone strong, certain and not a doormat. Good going, ID! Protecting those kiddos is by far more important than protecting your WW from herself.
Thanks for the update ID. We are there for you. Couple of thoughts:
1. You never mentioned that WW's sister is also a WW. That means the sis is probably encouraging the adultery. (Where were these girls when they were teaching this stuff in church!!!?)
2. Good job on protecting your kids.
3. Glad to hear you have a great support network--keep that up and say thanks to everyone A LOT. It will encourage them to continue to support you.
4. Be careful not to spill about the sex in front of the toddler.
What I meant about #4 was that you don't want members of your congregation to confront WW about this--it will diminish your case if she sees it coming. If a friend of mine told me his WW had sex in front of his toddler, it would be hard for me to control myself from going down to her house and trying to slap some sense into her, if you know what I mean wink
Darkness,

Seems like you have a plan. I think it may be valuable to you if you think up some story about why you filed to encourage her to go willingly to live with the OM. Confrontation may be satisfying but if you get her to just go live with him (say until the baby is born) then she will get the short end of the stick in custody battle.

Plus, get any documentation you can on the OM.
6YL, yeah, my biggest concern at this point is getting WW to move voluntarily to OM, without the kids. I mean, she can't take the kids anywhere regardless but I don't want to have to put her up in an apartment or something, locally, or even worse, have her still living here. Let her go live out her fantasy for a while and see how reality feels.
I forget, how old is your wife? How old is OM?
I'll be thinking about you indarkness. I'm really sorry that you're having to go through all of this, but it sounds like you have a plan. It's great that you have so much support from the church and your family.

I can almost guarantee that things will get real very fast for your WW if you can get her to move out. Once she finds herself living with OM and his parents, without her children, without a job, and with an OM who will have to give a huge chunk of his income to his W for CS, I think your WW may finally start to realize what she has done. She needs a good, cold, hard dose of reality. Sounds like she's been living in fantasy land a wee bit too long.
ima, updated my profile, WW is 33. OM is approx. the same age, don't know for sure.

writer1, I've really appreciated all of your insight. It so very much helps to have someone who was "on the other side" chime in. You mentioned that being here is difficult at times but you provide valuable insight, so stick around, if you can.

We'll see. WW is fogged in heavy and unfortunately OM family is supportive of OM. Found out today that OM has two brothers that have done *exact* same thing - A with spouse, then moved OW into parent's home. AND PARENTS WELCOMED THEM IN!!! Sheesh, this world has some crazy people in it.

If anything will break my wife, waking up without her DC nearby should do it, i hope. But who knows. She's insane right now.
I won't leave. Just trying to find some balance.

I'm guessing OM's parents aren't members of the church? I find it difficult to believe that anyone could be that morally devoid, church members or not. Crazy indeed.

Just the thought of losing my kids was enough to snap me out of it, and my kids were teenagers too, so not exactly easy to miss. JK. Yes, your WW is insane right now. A's breed insanity.

Sometimes, I'd really like to slap all the WS's out there and tell them to wake up.
Originally Posted by writer1
I'm guessing OM's parents aren't members of the church?

They are members but *very* inactive, I'm told.
Originally Posted by indarkness
Found out today that OM has two brothers that have done *exact* same thing - A with spouse, then moved OW into parent's home. AND PARENTS WELCOMED THEM IN!!! Sheesh, this world has some crazy people in it.

I stayed quiet while you made your decision. Generally, I don't encourage posters to file divorce as typically IMO it makes the divorce more likely, but in your case I think YOU are making the correct decision to move forward and protect your interests and children as best you can.

I quoted the above to emphasize that it appears you are going up against extremely experienced participants. I bet you your wife doesn't move out voluntarily. She's an entitled wayward that wants the house, the kids and alimony and OM's shifty family will advise her how to get it (which is a big reason I think a preemptive filing is in order). As PSU said, watch out. Carry that recorder with you at all times (on the snooping 101 thread I believe I posted a link to a website that sells a watch that has a built in MP3 recording device of some type...you just push a button and record very inconspicuously).

I also recommend you advise your attorney to prepare and serve upon OM and your WW notices of the taking of depositions ASAP (he may choose to go the Request for Admissions route). Waywards hate testifying and will do anything and everything to avoid it. Since OM is eventually going to be the one that most likely ends it...get him, in particular, deposed as soon as your attorney can. Even if the case eventually settles, you'll never regret spending the money to depose them and forever putting the events of your life for the past few months IN WRITING. Waywards LOVE to rewrite history and when your very young children are older the story of the [potential] breakup of your marriage WILL change dramatically, unless you have the facts IN WRITING and IN HER OWN WORDS.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - If and when you do depose him, don't forget to ask his exwife is there is anything she'd like to know. Any question is fair game in a deposition. You may eventually even want to depose his parents (if your wife does move in with them and the children are going to potentially be in their home). Never know what skeletons you can find until you start poking around. Criminal background checks wouldn't hurt either.
Great advice from MR.

Follow up on it please.
Originally Posted by MrWondering
p.s. - If and when you do depose him, don't forget to ask his exwife is there is anything she'd like to know. Any question is fair game in a deposition. You may eventually even want to depose his parents (if your wife does move in with them and the children are going to potentially be in their home). Never know what skeletons you can find until you start poking around. Criminal background checks wouldn't hurt either.

I did not know ANY question is fair game.

GOOD ADVISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This whole experience has jacked me up. I'm so tired physically, emotionally, spiritually. I just want to rest. But there is no other path forward and the road is still so long.

WW is totally and completely aiming for divorce. Said she has an appointment with a lawyer this week. I think I already talked to this guy before. He was a piece of work so I may get scraped across the coals. She said she is just going for "free consultation" and wants paralegals to handle everything but she may get pissed if I file first. However, she wants to get away from here badly and no e-mail to OM has suggested she is aiming to take this house. Still, she may not go off running to OM, who is apparently going to Vegas on a 60 day temp. duty assignment sometime in the upcoming week. Crap. Well, she can go live with his parents then. He says "I still need my diet" meaning a break in relationship so he can be sure she's the one. But filing will probably screw all that up. Man, I so don't want to have to pay for an apartment or anything else.

WW is a complete enigma. No marriage is perfect and I did some screaming and yelling plenty of times. But what's driven her to the point where she's willing to move out even without OM? Is it just an act? Is it just the fog talking? It's killing me inside. I took a lot of crap in this marriage and all I've heard for the past 9 weeks is what an awful husband and father I was, etc., etc. Yeah, I know waywards do this but be damned if she doesn't say it with conviction. But then, she does bizarre stuff like tell me "good night", just last night!! Good night??? How about if you drop the OM, then I might have a good night!!??!!

All I know is that I need control at this point and Plan D will give me something. The cat-and-mouse games have become just too exhausting. Trying to keep this up for another two months (which was original Plan A) would break me into pieces.

Damn. I really wanted this to work out. I suppose there's still hope that OM will drop her. But right now, I don't see her crawling back to me. But seriously, if he drops her, what is she going to do? I guess leech off me for the next 16 years...i don't know.
In the eyes of a wayward, you are a bad father because you won't allow her to have SF with the OM in front of the kids. That's how messed up their thinking is. It's very hard not to take the stuff personally.

As for her going to the quack lawyer, if you already talked to him, she can't hire him. Since she's talking to lawyers and is angling to get the house, you need to have the voice recorder going at all times and under no circumstances go within 4 feet of her. She is a live grenade right now and any wrong move will give her the house and I bet she will move the OM in ASAP. SInce she is a woman ALL SHE NEEDS TO DO TO GET YOU REMOVED FROM THE HOUSE IS TO GO TO THE COURTHOUSE AND SAY SHE'S AFFRAID OF YOU. She doesn't have to bring any evidence. The magic words are I asked for a divorce and now he is upset. Trust me, the system works like that.
WW does NOT want the house. She wants to move away badly. She continues to try and convince me to move closer to OM, which is incredibly insane.

Filing is tomorrow. She's served Tuesday evening and hopefully on her way to OM that night. After that, she will not be back in the house, ever. I'll pay for an apartment before it comes to that.
"She continues to try and convince me to move closer to OM, which is incredibly insane."

Or WW thinks you are incredibly stupid. Is she fogged up.
Why would you even consider paying for her an apartment? If she wants to leave so badly, let her figure out where she's going to go and how she's going to pay for it. You want her to suffer the consequences of her own actions as much as possible.

I know you say she doesn't want the house and that she wants to leave, just make sure she knows quite clearly that, if she does choose to go, the children are staying with you. This is non-negotiable. Their school, church, friends, etc. are there and that is their home and that is where they belong. She needs to realize quite clearly that if she goes, she will be choosing to live separately from her kids.

It may just be an act. Too soon to tell. You won't really know until you file and see how she responds. She's planning on moving out with or without the OM? I wonder where she's going to go, since she has no money, no job, and no education? If you fight for custody of the kids, she won't really be able to leach off you for the next 16 years. In fact, if you can get her to leave without them, you could have a case of abandonment against her. If you have the kids, she could end up owing you CS. It seems that at some point, she's going to realize just how completely screwed up her life is going to be if she proceeds along these lines. The question is, will it be too late?
Darkness,

I think you should encourage her to leave the house in any way you can. Tell her you will handle the legal details, be very very supportive. Tell her she needs a break from all of it so she can make the right decision. Remember that she is thinking like a selfish little girl right now, surely you can use that to get the upper hand and keep the kids safe.

Your wife sound like a nightmare, an abusive, selfish, immoral person. You will be better off with this cancerous tumor excised.
Ignore her blaming. Put absolutely no stock in it. You should not have to hear this crap from her and you need to avoid her at all costs.
Nothing pissed my XWW off more than denying her the opportunity to blame me. I simply pretended she did not exist, that she was dead to me.
You are with an abuser par excellance. Hopefully ,she will continue to be dumb enough to pursue this other idiot guy and you will have her out of your life and the lives of your kids.
I am SO, SO glad you finally have a plan.

Once WW is out of the house, you will find that a peace will come.

Praying for you all!

- Kimmy
Papers are signed. Filing in progress. WW will be served tomorrow.
Darkness,

It's good to see you executing your plan. Have you thought about any way you can get your WW to cooperate. I really think that you may get far more if you play along with her craziness for now.

Praying tonight that she sees this as her way out and exits the house with as little drama as possible.
Good luck! I'll be praying that everything goes smoothly. Keep us updated.
So, how did the serving of the papers go?
It may not have happened yet. I think it was supposed to be this evening.

SS
How did the service go?
bump
Sorry

Court didn't get the papers back on Tuesday and with Wednesday being Veterans Day, nothing happened. Maybe get them today.

Grrr. Makes it hard to plan things out.
Sorry for the delay. Gotta love those California courts. I've had some experience with them in the past, and they can be slow as molasses. Hang in there.
ID- how is your 11-year-old doing?
11-year old is doing OK, despite what he knows. I read something somewhere that some kids won't outwardly express their fears and frustrations and I hope he's not one of those. I keep encouraging him to talk to me whenever he feels like it but so far he hasn't said much.

BTW, my lawyer has advised me to limit what I tell the children. He says the courts frown on telling the kids too much. They wants stability for the kids to be the highest priority.

I did have the chance to spend all day at Disneyland yesterday with WW and kids. Figured it might be the last chance to do so and I should take it, glad I did. Very good day and WW was fun to be around. She has been acting very, well, un-wayward lately. She's made dinner 3 times the past 4 nights. She hadn't made dinner once prior to that for 9 weeks. She was doing laundry this morning. Today she's out getting stuff for the house and for the kids.

But, I also know she's planning a get together with the OM on Friday night which will probably undo anything I may be seeing (if it means anything at all, which I don't think it does).

None of this changes my intention - the paperwork has been filed and the check has been cashed. Just an interesting observation.
Quote
But, I also know she's planning a get together with the OM on Friday night


That's why she's all happy, staying busy with household stuff, etc. If she was trying to do NC, she'd be tearful, bitchy, whiny, etc.

Good for you for not buying it.

That's true what the lawyer says but that usually applies AFTER there is an order on file. Temp orders will usually require that both parties not make disparaging remarks about the other parent. There is NO order now and you know what, your attorney is hired to facilitate divorce, not recover marriages.

I would take the advice of Dr. Harley, who has over 35 years experience in marriage building over the advice of your attorney, when it comes to this. After there are orders issued, THEN you can abide by them.
I agree with princessmeggy: Tell the kids now, before there is any sort of order forbidding you from doing so. Dr. Harley is in the business of saving M's. Your attorney is only in the business of trying to get you as much as possible in the event of a D.

As far as your son not asking questions, I wouldn't worry too much. My kids haven't really asked many questions either since they found out. I've let them know that I'm open to answering whatever questions they may have, and occasionally, they will ask something having to do with the OM and my A, but really, they've never wanted to talk about it too much. Just let your son know that you're there for him and that you love him and that he can always come to you about anything.

My H and I also did things like go to Disneyland and other places as a family while I was involved in my A. Don't underestimate the power of spending quality time together. I was sure, at this point, that we were headed toward D and that I was going to marry the OM, but every time my H and I went somewhere together with the kids or alone (we were still going out on date nights during my A, believe it or not) it would start to work a little wedge of doubt into my mind about what I really wanted. I would get some small glimpses of what things were like before and I would start to miss that. It did resurrect old feelings for my H. Really, I think what ultimately brought me back, was all the little things my H did to show me that he still cared, even when I didn't want him to.

Maybe your WW was only happy because she knew she'd be seeing OM in a few days, and it's obvious she isn't attempting NC at this time. However, creating an environment at home that recalls fond memories of love and closeness and better times can't hurt. Your WW loved you at one time, and those feelings may still be in there somewhere.
InD, do you have your lines all worked out for when she asks you why you filed? I mean, It's plain to almost everyone, but I bet she asks.

SS
InD,

Remember cooperation is the goal. Get her to leave the house willingly and you will be much better off later. You have sometime to work up a story that a deluded WW will buy about why you filed. I must admit the playing all nice while planning to see OM tomorrow makes me feel ill.

6yearsleft: It might have made my H ill too, but he did it, even when he knew I was talking to OM on the phone and on the computer everyday, and it worked.
Writer,

We will never know if you could have gotten to recovery with less pain for your BH. Sometimes you seem proud of the pain you put him through, but I think that can't be true.

6yearsleft: Wow. I have no idea where you might have gotten the impression that I would be proud of causing my H pain. Nothing could be further from the truth. If I could take back any of the pain that I caused my H, I would do so in a heartbeat, but I cannot.

I was simply trying to let InD know that his actions may carry more weight with his WW than he knows. I don't know for sure, of course. I was only sharing what my H did and what worked in our situation.

There seems to be a distinct bias from some of the BS's on this site that did not recover their marriages against FWS's that did. I'm very sorry for your pain and for what your FWW put you through, but I am not her and I have never done anything to you. Please try to keep that in mind.
Writer,

I think if you had had a chance to read the bulk of my posts you would see that I do, in fact, regularly support FWW's in their efforts, Looking4 and Ivetz to name 2 of them. I also have a habit of telling what I think, usually with a qualifier since I don't really know what you think.

Perhaps you are proud that he went through so much pain (and directly horrible behavior from you) to keep you around? I've seen that a couple of times, in your posts I think, that you didn't seem to understand his feelings until he suffered so much to keep you.

I would also take a moment to remind you that Recovery does not equal Success. Making the right choices is success, it took me 10 years to make the right choice.

6yearsleft: I'm not sure if you've read my entire story, but the reason I wasn't sure of my H's feelings for me prior to my A was because he was involved in a 10-year EA with an ex-girlfriend that began 1 week after our wedding. I had to share my H's love for 10 years, and I was often left feeling as though I was #2 in his heart. I don't want to hijack InD's thread, so I won't go into too much detail here, but my H still had feelings for his ex-girlfriend when we got married. When we married, she was (still is, in fact) in an abusive marriage. My H played the part of her savior for many years, leaving our family on numerous occasions to rescue his ex whenever she and her H would have an altercation. He broke off the EA and started it again numerous times before finally cutting her loose. That's why I didn't understand my H's feelings for me, because I don't think he himself understood them for a very long time.
About telling the kids.

If you tell them what's going on, you are not doing disparaging remarks about WW.
You are just telling them the truth about what is going on. They do know something is going on.

Since you already talked to DS11, you should consider at least talk to DD8.
DS11 is in a very strange position, will he lie to his sister if she asks him what is going on? How upset will DD8 will be that you tallked to DS and not to her?
They've probably seen inapropriate behaviour from WW with OM in the past.
"6yearsleft: Wow. I have no idea where you might have gotten the impression that I would be proud of causing my H pain. Nothing could be further from the truth. If I could take back any of the pain that I caused my H, I would do so in a heartbeat, but I cannot."

I am against abortion. Not against your decision to keep the OC. Though with you willing to take some things back I will ask. Would you if you could undo the pregnancy. Turn back the clock. Used protection.

Would you?

Would your BH?
ID - another reason for telling your children what's going on with their mother is that you will never have an opportunity to prevent their bonding with OM like you do now.

He is the destroyer of their eternal family and their home. They deserve to know before your WW finagles him into your place in the family. Because you have to know the nut case you are married to has that in her plans!
Originally Posted by indarkness
BTW, my lawyer has advised me to limit what I tell the children. He says the courts frown on telling the kids too much. They wants stability for the kids to be the highest priority.

ID, it is in the best interest of your children to be told the full truth. Your attorney does not care about the welfare of your children, only in reaching an AMICABLE legal settlement with as little fuss as possible. If you don't tell your children the truth, you leave them wide open for your WW to tell them her SPIN which will lead to years of moral confusion. Your kids can deal with the truth as long as they have a sane parent who is giving them moral guidance.

Dr. Harley made this post earlier this week:

Quote
My position on many aspects of marital therapy has been admittedly controversial when first expressed. His Needs, Her Needs was ripped by many therapists in 1986 when it was first published because they didn't believe that men and women's emotional needs were different. Today, there are very few that believe that anymore.

My position on conflict management (Policy of Joint Agreement) was also roundly criticized by some feminists as giving away women's right to independence. Of course, most of these critics were not in favor of marriage in the first place. But today, the idea of finding mutually adventageous solutions to problems in marriage is main-stream.

And, my position on radical honesty and transparency in marriage, which was definitely not in the tool box of most counselors when I first brought it up, is now becoming much more accepted by therapists working in the trenches.

At first, whenever I came up with a new idea, I'd try it out on the couples I counseled. My goal was always to "do no harm" in my effort to help. I was very concerned about unintended consequences. But as I created methods that were logical outcomes of my basic theory, I found that these methods worked amazingly well every time they were implemented. That's why I can speak with such confidence today. I've personally witnessed thousands of successful outcomes when couples learn to meet each other's emotional needs, learn to make decisions with mutual enthusiastic agreement, and learn to be radically honest with each other.

The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
here
The Road: I would be more than happy to answer your question if you take it to my thread over in the Pregnancy/Child forum.

I think Dr. Harley's post earlier this week was amazing and very timely in your case, InD. The kids do need to know the truth. If your WW does leave when she is served the papers, the kids are obviously going to know that something is up, if they don't already, which I find difficult to believe. You don't want them thinking that her leaving has anything to do with them. Your 8 y/o DD is old enough to know the truth. Even your 5 y/o is going to have to be told some very simple version of what is going on. Certainly they are going to notice their mother's absence. It's better that they know what is really going on rather than be left to their own imaginations.
WW was served last night. She has no intention of leaving the house. The more I considered fallout, the less sure I felt of her leaving, so this was not unexpected.

WW is angry because I did this without telling her. Well, she's angry about a lot of things. She was thrashing around last night and doing so again this morning. Lot's of accusations, criticisms, etc. I mostly try to keep my mouth shut.

Moving forward on all of this is just going to be painful. WW is adamant about getting the kids. I think she's going to put up a fight or at least try to. She still hasn't talked to a lawyer. She needs to fill out her side of the paperwork and submit. I guess that's the first step forward.

I kept pressing her last night about what her plans were for her and the OM. She says OM has not committed to her yet and is going to Vegas for 60 days to figure it out. I asked about contact and she said he wants to do NC for this time period. It won't happen. But with nowhere for WW to go I'm stuck. I can't kick her out and I'm not going to leave. She's such a cake eater...

At this point, I've lost almost all interest in trying to recover my marriage. WW has made nasty accusations, has shown zero concern about the affect of the affair on my children or me and is exhibiting behavior that I doubt I can get past.

It kills me to think about the effect of D on my kids. I just want to wrap my arms around them and never let them go. But I know that won't happen. I know I'm going to lose them for at least sometime. That's just a devastating thought.



Yup.
Waywards are total peckerheads.
Your wife is no exception.
Sad that she sits around not working all day and you have to pay her way. Too bad you can't make that any tougher.
You know she's going to spin the D to your kids, right?
It's going to be all your fault. You PUSHED her into OM's arms. She loved you and loved the M. It's all you, especially since you haven't gotten to the kids first to spin it properly.
Have you all explained to the kids about mommy's baby yet?
Kids don't understand gestation, so it's easy enough for WW to say she HAD to run into the arms of OM because you filed for D. And when two people love each other a baby is made, etc. etc.
I'm really sorry, InD. I'm not terribly surprised that she doesn't intend to leave the home, but I am sorry.

Keeping your mouth shut seems like a good idea right now. You don't want to give her anymore ammunition. Of course, she's going to be angry. Just let her fume.

I would suggest putting a lot of pressure on OM right now. The fact that the OM is not committing to this relationship with your WW is very good. Make doing so as unpleasant for him as humanly possible. Do everything you can to make him stick to that NC while he is gone. The longer your WW goes NC with the OM, the more chances there will be for the fog to start to clear.

Here's a question for those with experience. Usually, when one reaches the point where the BS is losing all desire to recover the M, Plan B is recommended. Plan B seems in order for InD. But how do you do that when there are kids involved and the WS refuses to leave the home?
Just an FYI: I think most people know but I'm in CA and the *minimum* time between filing for D and D being finalized is 6 months.
Food for thought if you PLAN B while in the same household Could that be looked at as justifications to why the wayward wants out?
InD, whatever YOU do, DO NOT leave your home. You probably know this, but I just wanted to remind you.

Your wife is reacting as expected. Of course she's mad, you just yanked her cake away. NOW she REALLY has to put her money where her mouth is.

Get to those babies first, as soon as you can. It is CRITICAL that they hear the truth from you.
I don't think you Plan B living in the same house. It just wouldn't work. Plus he served her D papers already.

And protect yourself. She can easily file a protecton order against you and get you tossed. Some waywards really suck. Be careful.
IND also dont let your wife take the kids out of town for any reason without you being there not even to see family,because she does nt have to return. Do not leave your home.
CN, yeah, I'm trying to keep things as cool as possible. She's already accusing me of being physically abusive. But then she's taking off for the night to go see OM!!!! So if I'm so abusive, why is she so willing to leave the kids with me and head out on a fling??? The woman is insane, completely and totally.

I just want to calmly get her out of the house and on her own or with OM. I don't care at this point, just so long as she is gone.

Someone talked about recording conversations, I think it's time I find something like that.
Darkness,

Please be sure to call your lawyer back with an update. I really think you need to protect yourself and your custody in any way. Is there anything you can do to codify the current situation? Also document everything, maybe daily emails to your lawyer or a journal. Maybe your WW should go to Vegas to stay with the OM. I'm sure that would not look good in a custody battle.

>So if I'm so abusive, why is she so willing to leave the kids with me and head out on a fling???

Document it all.

My husband carries a pocket recorder in his shirt pocket at work. He got it at RadioShack.
Target has little voice activated digital recorders in the electronics dept.

They are very inexpensive and useful in general (for all kinds of things....recording notes to yourself, the kids being silly, conversations, etc)

They are small and easy to use.
Here's a watch a mentioned earlier.

http://www.chinavasion.com/product_...steel-mp4-player-watch-18-inch-screen-2/

I just googled MP3 watch to find it so there are many choices out there. I believe this might be the least intrusive and/or the least obnoxious seeming way to happen to have a recording device available to utilize at the right(really wrong) moment.

When I say "least intrusive/least obnoxious" I'm referring to any person in the court that ever hears such recording. A father fighting for custody is always up against the wall when it comes to perceptions. Sometimes these "father's rights" websites lead well-intended fathers right down the path of APPEARING litigious and down-right nasty. Judges base there decisions way more upon initial impressions than the actual law. If a father storms into court demanding HIS RIGHTS...he loses, despite the law or the validity of his underlying arguments. If you APPEAR mean and vindictive...you lose. It's that simple sometimes.

Thus, even the perception that you've been running around like an apparent idiot pulling a tape recorder out of your pocket all the time taping conversations MAY backfire on you. Which is why I like the MP3 watch idea. The recorder JUST HAPPENS TO BE HANDY...instead of premeditated.

Finally, feel free to email me at my email below. I've got some e-documents I can share with you.

Mr. Wondering
Tell your lawyer that your wife is claiming that you are abusive. Ask for advice about what you can do to protect yourself. I'm sure they see this stuff a lot. The watch is a grand idea.

My wife has an app. for her i-phone that records voice. Perhaps that could work for you too.
Quote
The recorder JUST HAPPENS TO BE HANDY...instead of premeditated.


Excellent idea Mr. W.
Originally Posted by 6yearsleft
Maybe your WW should go to Vegas to stay with the OM.


Oh sweet, heavenly bliss. That would be wonderful. I actually suggested it this morning and she said "what! leave the kids alone with you for that long? yeah, right." But, what was funny is that there was a brief pause, as if she was actually considering it.
Buy her a plane ticket and hand it to her. Then change the locks when she is gone.
Can you change the locks in this situation? I mean, when she goes to stay with OM (is it tonight or tomorrow night) can that be seen as abandonment, even if it's just for a night? Could he just change the locks while she's gone?

And, is recording someone without their knowledge legal? Can such recordings be used in court?
>Can such recordings be used in court?

Maybe not in court, but if a home study had to be done to determine which home to place the kids in - well I know our caseworker listened to the tapes we had and took them into account.
Are you keeping a daily journal? Recounting each and every conversation? A good way for the judge to see how wayward she is being, and how little concern she shows for the kids.
I think that documenting everything is a great idea. Write down exactly when WW left the kids to go off and be with the OM. When she had, shall we say, "inappropriate relations" in front of them. If the tape recordings can be used to determine custody, then by all means, record absolutely everything you can.

And please, please, please tell your other kids so they can be prepared for what's coming. They are far more likely to get an accurate picture of what's going on from you than they are from your WW and the OM.
The lawyer has told me several times now that I *can* change the locks if she leaves. However, it's a rental so I would need more prep time. Also, what does that solve? Yes, I want her out of the house but is this the right way to go about doing it? Right now, I don't think so. In divorce, she holds a lot of power and she usually goes straight for the throat. If I can end this amicably, I would much rather do so.

Also, with the filing in place she can't take the kids anywhere that I couldn't get them back within 48 hours.
CP: yes I have a daily journal.
I don't really believe in an amicable divorce. I've been told they exist, but I've never seen one personally. It almost always gets ugly, and it certainly promises to do so in your case.
Quote
Also, with the filing in place she can't take the kids anywhere that I couldn't get them back within 48 hours.
Um, yeah, that would be just about anywhere in the world, as far as I know. The longest plane trip I know of is less than 2 days.
Originally Posted by indarkness
CN, yeah, I'm trying to keep things as cool as possible. She's already accusing me of being physically abusive. But then she's taking off for the night to go see OM!!!! So if I'm so abusive, why is she so willing to leave the kids with me and head out on a fling??? The woman is insane, completely and totally.

I just want to calmly get her out of the house and on her own or with OM. I don't care at this point, just so long as she is gone.

Someone talked about recording conversations, I think it's time I find something like that.

Indarkness,

You need to get your head out of your you know what and start recording her NOW. Your WW is throwing around abuse acusations left and right. You have been warned about the dangers. READ MY THREAD! She is pregnant. All she has to do to get you kicked out of the house and regulated to an every other weekend father is to say she is scared of you. Right now, without you recording her, there is about an 80% chance that you will be legally removed from your house and OM legally moved in within a month. This is very, very, harsh. But, this is also a reality of the divorce industry today.
I think PSUBIKER is right in this case. If she's already throwing around allegations of abuse, you are in real danger of being removed from your home. Never, at any time, did I even consider falsely accusing my H of something he didn't do just to get him out of the house. If you aren't careful, you may not even get the ever other weekend thing. If there are allegations of abuse, it may be more a situation where you end up with monitored visitation only with your kids. Have you talked to your lawyer about these false allegations that your WW is making?
You might consider the following conversation with WW:
Hi Honey. You know I love you so very much, but I filed for D so that you could see that I wasn't going to stand in your way. A wise man once told me, 'If you love someone, set them free. If they come back, they're yours forever, if they don't, they never were.'
Well, I think I'll always wonder if your heart is with OM. Even if you have a last minute change-of-heart, I'll never know for sure unless you come back to me.
So, I'm suggesting that you take some time, get to know this guy, and see if he really is your soul mate. The trip to Vegas would be perfect. You could spend time with him without worrying about whether people in our town, from our church, see you two out in public.
I've talked to my family and friends and they have agreed to help watch the kids while you take this time to discover yourself. We all know that you came into this marriage with no worldly experience, so maybe you'll decide after going out that you really want to be with me again. Maybe not. Either way, I really want you to be happy, even though it causes me so much pain right now.
If your heart really has been given to someone else, so be it. But I'm hoping you'll see how much I love you by doing this for you."
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.
.
Now, you'll really have to hold your nose, metaphorically, to spew this, but it might be enough to get her out of the house, if you see what I mean.
Who knows? It could even change her mind, but don't count on it. Remember what PSUbiker is saying. He has lived this--you can learn a lot from his experience.
I would recommend you have the tape recorder going at ALL TIMES. In a divorce situation, a tape recorder is not an offensive weapon. It is used for defensive purposes only to protect against false claims of abuse. Mr WOndering brought up a good point about being overly litigious.

My tape recorder turned a he said / she said situation into a rout for me. She had me accused me of grabbing her arms in a violent, aggressive way and had me arrested. In the trial, it was established from the tape based on her voice that I put my chest out to her and stood in her body space. In reality, she had gotten out of her car, started screaming at me about 6 inches from my face, all the while I put my hands behind my back and was back peddling to keep from touching her.

In the 10 minutes from the time she called 911 and the cops came, not once did she mention me grabbing her arms to the 911 operater. When the cops said they were going to write it up as a verbal domestic, it was clearly heard that she finally said I grabbed her arms. The cops then said they didn't see any marks on her arm. This was about 20 minutes after she called the police.

Three days later, she walked into the police station, and showed the chief red marks on her arms. He had me arrested. LUckily, everything was dismissed after the trial but it goes to show the lengths a WW would go to get their way. Your WW is showing very similar behavior to my XWW.
Originally Posted by imanotherone
You might consider the following conversation with WW:
Hi Honey. You know I love you so very much, but I filed for D so that you could see that I wasn't going to stand in your way. A wise man once told me, 'If you love someone, set them free. If they come back, they're yours forever, if they don't, they never were.'
Well, I think I'll always wonder if your heart is with OM. Even if you have a last minute change-of-heart, I'll never know for sure unless you come back to me.
So, I'm suggesting that you take some time, get to know this guy, and see if he really is your soul mate. The trip to Vegas would be perfect. You could spend time with him without worrying about whether people in our town, from our church, see you two out in public.
I've talked to my family and friends and they have agreed to help watch the kids while you take this time to discover yourself. We all know that you came into this marriage with no worldly experience, so maybe you'll decide after going out that you really want to be with me again. Maybe not. Either way, I really want you to be happy, even though it causes me so much pain right now.
If your heart really has been given to someone else, so be it. But I'm hoping you'll see how much I love you by doing this for you."
.
.
.
Now, you'll really have to hold your nose, metaphorically, to spew this, but it might be enough to get her out of the house, if you see what I mean.
Who knows? It could even change her mind, but don't count on it. Remember what PSUbiker is saying. He has lived this--you can learn a lot from his experience.

Now, that speech would take a really strong person to pull off. But, if he can do it, it might just work.

I'm sure it took just as strong a stomach for my H to say that I should go back to New England and see the OM and "figure out what I really wanted." I know it makes me want to puke just thinking about it now. I can't even imagine how difficult it must have been for him to do that.

And, what's more, it actually worked. I went, and even though initially, after my return, I was even more certain that I wanted to leave and marry OM, it wore off pretty fast - within about a month, I think. Of course, my H didn't lock my out of the house while I was gone. He probably should have, but thankfully he didn't.

She may still not go, but if she did leave, at least you would have a case for abandonment against her, which would bode well for your ability to get custody of the kids. It's certainly better than her having you removed from the home under false allegations of abuse.
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by imanotherone
You might consider the following conversation with WW:
Hi Honey. You know I love you so very much, but I filed for D so that you could see that I wasn't going to stand in your way. A wise man once told me, 'If you love someone, set them free. If they come back, they're yours forever, if they don't, they never were.'
Well, I think I'll always wonder if your heart is with OM. Even if you have a last minute change-of-heart, I'll never know for sure unless you come back to me.
So, I'm suggesting that you take some time, get to know this guy, and see if he really is your soul mate. The trip to Vegas would be perfect. You could spend time with him without worrying about whether people in our town, from our church, see you two out in public.
I've talked to my family and friends and they have agreed to help watch the kids while you take this time to discover yourself. We all know that you came into this marriage with no worldly experience, so maybe you'll decide after going out that you really want to be with me again. Maybe not. Either way, I really want you to be happy, even though it causes me so much pain right now.
If your heart really has been given to someone else, so be it. But I'm hoping you'll see how much I love you by doing this for you."
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.
.
Now, you'll really have to hold your nose, metaphorically, to spew this, but it might be enough to get her out of the house, if you see what I mean.
Who knows? It could even change her mind, but don't count on it. Remember what PSUbiker is saying. He has lived this--you can learn a lot from his experience.

Now, that speech would take a really strong person to pull off. But, if he can do it, it might just work.

I'm sure it took just as strong a stomach for my H to say that I should go back to New England and see the OM and "figure out what I really wanted." I know it makes me want to puke just thinking about it now. I can't even imagine how difficult it must have been for him to do that.

And, what's more, it actually worked. I went, and even though initially, after my return, I was even more certain that I wanted to leave and marry OM, it wore off pretty fast - within about a month, I think. Of course, my H didn't lock my out of the house while I was gone. He probably should have, but thankfully he didn't.

She may still not go, but if she did leave, at least you would have a case for abandonment against her, which would bode well for your ability to get custody of the kids. It's certainly better than her having you removed from the home under false allegations of abuse.

I agree. It's a good plan. As a much as you'd like to believe she won't fall for it...remember, waywards are motivated/addicted to ONE THING. Darn the consequences. She THINKS that she's COMPLETELY in the drivers seat on this custody issue. NO ONE can take her kids away from her. So...free tickets to Vegas to see OM is pretty tempting from her standpoint. You betcha.

Mr. Wondering
Hey, I have been lurking in and reading this thread for a while and i have to point out something to you that seems to get missed here. As a woman if i were in your WS shoes and having gotten used to getting things my way (with her popping over to see OW whenever she wants etc) I would be looking at you as a walkover, she seems to be attracted to this OM because he wont commit, its the old chasing something you cant have theory, now why dont you take a leaf out of his book and make yourself attractive to your WS again by STANDING UP FOR YOURSELF! sod the legalities, the possible complications etc, go to home depo or your nearest DIY store and buy some new door locks! shut her out! shock her by standing up and saying im a the MAN of the house and i am not taking this bull anymore!!
Your WS has gotten used to ignoring your existance for so long that a short sharp shock of you standing up for yourself should do the trick.
Being Italian I have been brought up in a way that men roole the house not the other way round and it may cause a stir me actually saying this but hey my name should give you a clue to what im about, men who stand up for themselves and not put up with my bull i see as totally attractive! I would like to think your wife is like that so go be the man that gets his wife back in check!! not the one who sits there alone while she goes off to her other man!

sorry im harsh but that woman needs to wake up, the kids need to have a family and its time for drastic actions. Lock her out!
Ind buy a plane ticket to vegas and send it to your house addressed to her,make it look like the OM sent it. When you buy the ticket and have it sent make sure their is only a day for her to make up her mind to go. Since you already stated you wanted out of marriage be short and meet none of her needs for a few days prior to getting ticket if it works she does nt have a ticket back,she abanded her children and you have time to do the locks.Straight to D
Problem with your plan, dsd, is that a simple phone call will verify that the ticket came from ID. Better that she thinks she can continue to "find herself" and ID will be in the wings waiting for her.
Re: BrutallyHonest's comments, I think there is a remote chance this would work, but right now, WW is out of her mind and pregnant and threatening to take the kids. ID needs to get her out of the house until she can be trusted with more responsibility.
Update? How are things going InD?
ID - any updates?
Thinking about you all.
Sorry, had to drop off the radar for a bit. My emotional health had been steadily deteriorating and I just had to walk away from everything except my family for a little while. It helped a lot. My head feels much clearer and I'm starting to recover some of the weight I lost (for good and bad). I appreciate everyone on these forums but sometimes the clamor can be loud and it helps to take a step back.

WW and I have had some cordial discussions about custody, child support, etc. and we both agree that mediation would be the very best route, for us and the kids. We have our meeting with a lawyer to begin that process today. Preventing D does not seem possible at this point and I am learning to accept this.

OM still refuses to commit to WW although he says he has filed for legal separation. I came home last Friday and WW was crying because she had made an incomplete list of the responsibilities she would bear as a single mother and was beginning to realize the hell that was awaiting her, particularly without the support of OM.

The financial side of D is brutal. Even with minimal alimony, it's still going to be very difficult. The only solace I get is that the OM will get equally screwed, whether he commits to WW or not.

Kids know the entire picture (including pregnancy) and my DS of 5 years is beginning to ask mommy some tough questions. DD is acting out and all kids are having a tough time sleeping. This is so sad to witness. The selfishness of WWs actions are appalling clear to everyone except her (and OM).
BTW, how the heck do people endure 6 mos. of Plan A??? I don't know, maybe if my WW had considered at all some kind of healing. But from D-day on, all I've heard is the "I want divorce" mantra.

I do see signs of stress in relationship between WW and OM (he seems to be realizing some of WWs less desirable traits) but WW attitude has not changed AT ALL over the last 11 weeks or so.

So part of me feels that any attempt at doing anything constructive is simply futile. And now I'm questioning whether I even want to continue the M, should an act of God bring WW around. For the sake of my kids, I would endure the hell of R but WW has checked out.

We have minimum 6 months until the D is final so I suppose things may change - its a long time - more than twice the length of what I've already endured. Still, i don't see much to hope for right now.
No matter what, you are going to HURTING financially for several years at least. If you get the kids, you are still looking at a ton of before and after school care as well as daycare for the small kids.

If WW gets the kids or you settle on 50/50, a HUGE chunk of your check is still going to go to daycare / CS. With 4 kids, there may not be much left over for WW to get any alimony.

As for your WW, once OM dumps her or doesn't commit, I can really see her becoming a magnent for all sorts of garbage you don't want around your kids. Lowlifes have a tendency to flock to single moms with kids because they know a steady check is coming in. I really don't see a pretty ending for your WW.

Hi, InD. Sorry you've been having such a rough time. I'm glad you checked in.

I think the 6 month guidelines for Plan A are just that, guidelines. I think it's really how much you can put up with. For some people, it's 6 months, for others, it is much less. My H stuck it out for the 6 months, and to the date, that's almost exactly how long it took for my A to end. Of course, during that time, I was waffling back and forth much more than your WW seems to be doing, so I wasn't constantly throwing D in his face. I just really didn't know what I wanted to do. I was a huge mess.

I think Plan B is meant to get the BS away from the WS before they fall completely out of love because of the WS's actions, as well as allow the BS some time to heal and focus on themselves and not have to be smacked in the face with the A all the time. Of course, it's pretty darn difficult to go to Plan B when your WW is still living at home. This might be a perfect time to go to a Plan B, because that would suddenly force the OM to start meeting ALL of your WW's EN's, which, from the sound of things, I can all but guarantee you he will not be able to do. But I'm not sure how you would implement Plan B in your situation with the kids. In SAA's example couple, Jon and Sue, Jon eventually agrees to leave the home and implement a Plan B, but from everything I've heard on this site, no one seems to think this is a good idea. I have sometimes wondered why the advice on this site seems to contradict Dr. Harley's advice sometimes. I understand how the courts may see it as abandonment if the father leaves the home, but how the heck do people with children ever utilize the concept of Plan B if the BS can't leave and the WS won't?

It seems as though the reality of the situation is starting to hit your WW hard. She's starting to realize how tough things are going to be after the D. OM seems to be realizing this as well, which is probably why he's been so reluctant to commit to your WW. This thing is dying a slow and natural death. I doubt seriously that there's much chance of their fantasy "happily-ever-after" ending coming to fruition, not that there ever was much of a chance of that in the first place. But it seems that your WW and OM are finally starting to have to face reality. Reality is what kills most A's.

What you do now is totally up to you. I wouldn't say D is certain, at this point. I can't imagine that your WW is happy at the thought of being a D'd mother of 5 with no job and no education. But what do YOU want at this point? I think that's the important question that you need to be asking yourself.
Writer,

A lot of the Harley plans run counter to what a family law attorney would advise a client to do. Your plan B example is a good one. If a BS and a WS come to a separation / custody agreement that both can live with, then plan B is doable with a BS moving out.

In my experience on these boards, the logistics of plan B are much easier with a WH than a WW. A WH tends to be more willing to move out to persue the affair whereas many WW's tend to get the attitude of replacing the BS with the OM as a father figure in the kid's lives and thus are less reluctant to move out. Or, a WW would EASILY twist plan B tactics around in court to make the BH look like an uncooperative co parent. In addition, the court system is set up so a WW can throw a BH out much easier than a BH can throw a WW out.

Totally agree with PSU on this one.
InD, so sorry to see it come down like this.
How is your community of friends, family, clergy reacting to all this? Is WW getting any kind of support, emotionally?
I hope she's getting encouraged to find a way to screw her head on straight.
Ima: WW is starting to get some help from some people but she's still very much fogged in. She's a LOOOONG way from reality. I think her friends are still very wary because they don't want to condone her continuing of the A but they still want to help her. Plus, pregnancy is starting to show which is just another thing she has to deal with. It's really not going to be easy for her regardless of how things work out. It's sad to watch someone actively destroy their life and not realize they are doing so.
Wht is the divorce law like in Utah? I would think as a conservative state, fault comes into play. Are you guys in Utah? I just realized I was making an assumptin. Where are you and does fault factor in?
Your WW is in for a very rude awakening. My XWW thought she would be able to continue her nights out etc. Now ,she has the kids 6 nights a week. The kids hated the OM and made that clear. It disintegrated their relationship and she is looking haggard. No more all nghters at the bar.
Zelmo: Unfortunately, he's in CA. We're a no-fault state.
ID - I wish someone could get the point across to your wife, the motto of the IRS also applies to life and consequences:

Quote
Pay Now, or Pay Later With Penalties And Interest.

The penalties are already adding up. But if she slides away from the consequences now, those penalties will be paid more and more by your children.

Do whatever you can and must to get this point for yourself - you must do everything you can to move those consequences away from your children back to her. Work with your bishop, a therapist from LDS Social Services, and every possible resource you can to ensure this.
This woman, your wife....should get a tubal ligation. Then, when she messes around with other men at least she will not be producing innocent/ unwanted children. She does not want or love a baby. It was a stupid accident of the affair. She should adopt the child to a loving family and get a tubal ligation so as not to produce more kids and to ruin more children's lives.
WWs mother and I were talking the other day and the unfortunate part for my WW is that she has never really been exposed to the consequences of bad decisions.

When we met, we were both 18 and living at home. We dated for 2.5 years before marriage but I was always protective of her and she always had a place to stay and someone to take care of her. When she got pregnant at 20, I stepped up, got married and made sure she and the baby were taken care of. We have always had a good lifestyle and though I got on her for spending a lot of money, we always got by enough that we could maintain our lifestyle (though not without accumulating debt...uggh). That comfort has continued up to today. But moving out with 4 kids and another on the way, with or without the other man is going to be a huge slap in the face. As I said, it's sad to watch this slow-motion train wreck.

However, I'm going to do everything I can to keep the kids close and I imagine WW will dump them on me a lot, especially once the new bundle of joy comes along. I have already negotiated weekends which means I will have them all day Sunday for Church - every Sunday. I think there will be enough opportunities to keep the kids grounded. Not that this won't affect them but hopefully I can minimize the damage.
Does MEDC ever post here any longer? He fought for custody of his kids and won.

He would strongly advise you not to give custody to your future XWW without a strong fight.
ID, you need to ask for FULL custody. You give her an inch, she'll take a mile, and she'll take your hard earned money to spend on POSOM.
The divorce is moving forward but I still have very strong feelings for my wife. I guess I can't expect 14 years of love to just disappear overnight but I keep questioning whether I'm doing the right thing.

IMO, D is to be avoided at all costs. If a marriage can be fixed then every effort should be made to do so. This past weekend (and actually the past few weeks) WW and I had a lot of time together and she seemed to be warming up to me. I found myself shifting out of D mode and back into Plan A/B/whatever. Part of me thinks I should just finish up the D and move on - start whatever new life is waiting for me. But then there's the (foolishly, maybe) optimistic side of me that says, keep working it, there's still light. But am I just being a fool? Am I just blinded by my feelings for my wife? No matter how this ends I want to make sure that I can walk away saying I did absolutely everything I could to save the marriage, but I'm not sure I feel that way right now...
What would you tell your brother to do, if he were in your situation?
Good question Cat.

But I must add that only YOU can decide when enough is enough...and I urge you to take to you knees and pray on it to figure it out.
I have read that most A's die a natural death. The general time span I have seen on this site is anywhere from 6 months to 2 years, so you are still very early in this process. I can't guarantee it, of course, but I really don't see your WW and OM getting married and living happily ever after. Like the vast majority of A's, your WW's A is more than likely going to end, and at that point, she may be willing to come back and work on your M. It's completely up to you as to what you want to do if/when that happens. No one can answer that question for you. You need to do some soul searching and figure out what is best for you and your family. If you do everything in your power to save your family and your WW still decides to leave, then at least you can walk away with a clear conscience.

If you have it in you to Plan A for a little while longer, then maybe that's what you need to do. But only you know what you can handle at this point and what you can't. I wake up everyday thankful that my H stuck it out as long as he did. That 6 months must have been awful for him, but we're still here, still a family, because he did.

If you don't feel as though you have done everything possible to save your M, maybe there's still more to be done.
While WW is still actively in the A, you need to protect your kids. The rest of you are grown-ups, and can handle whatever comes your way. The kids DO NOT need the emotional tug-of-war. Don't go Plan A/Plan B/Plan D/Plan A/etc. Make a decision that you can live with, explain it to the kids, and stick with it. They will be terribly confused if you vascillate.
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
Good question Cat.

But I must add that only YOU can decide when enough is enough...and I urge you to take to you knees and pray on it to figure it out.
Well, what I meant by that was, if you can look at the problem as if it were someone else's, you are able to see the logic of it, i.e., see solutions that are not 100% feelings based. And then see if you can apply that logic back to your own situation.
I know. I really, really think it's a question that needs to be asked.
cat: it was an excellent question, i took a walk at lunch to think about it. It's hard to disconnect myself, but I guess I would say the following:

How much do you want to save the marriage? Your wife has had an affair and things will never be the same again. If there is to be any recovery it will require an extraordinary amount of work from BOTH of you. However, she is showing absolutely no interest in fixing the marriage. Do you think she will ever show interest? Waywards won't show an interest while the affair is in progress but given her actions prior to that, do you think she cares enough to make this work? If the answer is a firm no, then recovery will be impossible.

You have filed for divorce and your wife is currently intent on seeing this through. This means that you have less than 6 months until your marriage is dissolved. Your children are aware of this. Is it possible to change things between now and then?

You wife is also pregnant with the OMs baby. Are you willing to raise this child as your own should she decide she wants that? Are you ready and willing to deal with visitations from the OM for the next 18 years, if it comes to that?

IF you want to try and save your marriage then the first reality that you have to accept is that the only person you can change is YOU. You cannot change your WW, only she can do that. To that end, you need to be the best man you can possibly be by avoiding LBs wherever possible and by doing your best to meet your wife's ENs. Even if the affair continues up to the divorce you will know that you did absolutely everything you could do by being the very best man that you could be. You can't do more than that. Have you been doing this? If not, will you start, right now?

Create a loving home for your children where they want to be. Not only will this strengthen them now, but if divorce does happen, then they will have happy memories of time spent with you and they will want to make sure those good times continue even after the divorce.

-----------

So, having said all that, here would be my response:

From day one I have wanted to save the marriage. I love my wife. I love my family. I have always been committed to keeping our family together, despite an imperfect marriage. But, yes, my wife is showing absolutely no interest in saving the marriage. Even before the affair, she was feeling things were bad and was contemplating divorce. My feeling is that if she did stick around, it would be for purely financial reasons, not out of any real love. But its hard to say right now because she seems so very fogged in. In her current state, however, everything is about creating a new life with the OM.

Can I change things in 6 months? It's been three months since D-day. That means twice that amount of time until the divorce is final. A lot can happen in that time but it really feels like its out of my hands.

If my WW asked me to raise the baby, I would do it although the thought of having to potentially deal with the OM for such a long time makes me sick. If WW was committed to me and the family, however, I could do it.

I'm an engineer by personality so I want to "fix" everything. I constantly need the reminder that I can only "fix" myself. I would say I'm batting .500 here. Probably more LBs than I would like and I can up the enthusiasm when I'm around WW and kids. I can do more here.

When the A first went down, my goal was Plan A until Jan. 3rd and then move to Plan B if I could. Filing for D was probably premature but I did it for two reasons: to protect myself and my kids and because I felt I had run out of options. In hindsight, my WW had nowhere to go so there was really no need for "protection" in that sense and I had still not exhausted the "time" option of letting the affair die. It's possible that WW could have filed before me but unlikely.

I know that recovery is only possible if NC is in place. Furthermore, the NC cannot be forced, the OM and/or WW have to institute it. I have done everything I can on my end to limit contact but I cannot stop everything nor do I wish to because it would only lead to a false recovery. Right now, it seems like my only real hope is for a natural death, and that could take a lot longer than 6 mos.

So, what do I do? Other than being a better man, I don't see much else more. So much now relies upon my WW...


You're right, InD, you can only work on yourself. You can only be the best person you can be. That sounds like a great place to start. Really, we only have control over ourselves. In the end, no matter what happens, at least you will know that you tried and that you came out of this a better person.

As far as filing for D too soon, I kind of thought that all along, but I was outnumbered on here. I know a lot of good-meaning people on this site had been burned while in a similar situation and they simply didn't want to see that happen to you, and I certainly couldn't guarantee that your WW wouldn't file or try to have you thrown out of the house. It just didn't seem all that likely, considering her situation and the fact that she had no job, no money, and an OM that seems very reluctant to take on all of her extra baggage.

As far as having to accept OM into your lives if your WW should happen to change her mind, you definitely don't have to do that. If your WW would happen to snap out of this fog before the baby is born and wanted to raise this child with you, it could be done without any involvement with the OM. The OM in my case is not involved in any way. His name isn't even on the birth certificate. He could have sued for a paternity test, if he wanted, but CA favors the H in these cases, and it's very unlikely that he could have done anything about it since my H and I had already decided to raise the child together as our own.

Hang in there. Take care of yourself and your kids. This too shall come to pass.
Thanks writer, i've appreciated your calm approach. Emotions run so high in all of this that it can be hard to stay focused and maintain course. Stick around, I imagine I'm going to need your help as things progress.

As I was finishing up my last post one thing that occurred to me is that my WW has always been a severe procrastinator. She'll maintain the status quo until the bitter end and then maniacally try to finish whatever task she has delayed at the very last minute. She's definitely shown that cake eating is her "status quo" and she's going to try to keep that going as long as possible. I think that was one of my motivations for filing because it showed her that there was a definite end to all of this, one way or another. As the deadline approaches, who knows, maybe she'll wise up.

WW says OM is heading to Vegas for at least 60 days starting Thursday. Don't know how definite that is - they talk on the phone too much and avoid e-mails, so I don't know the details or if it's just a ruse. I think maybe I'll give his office a call Friday and see if he's around.
indarkness,

Just to make you question your perspective consider this. You say you like to "fix" things. Has it ever occured to you to "fix" your life. I know there are children involved and about to be another innocent child involved. But, has it occured to you that "fixing" your life would include changes within yourself AND removing a major distraction from your life...your W.

The marriage was poor before, I am sure it is partly your fault and I am sure it is partly her fault. The affair is 100% her fault, and so is the pregnancy. So "fixing" your life would seem to include you working on yourself, and getting rid of W.

How do you like that arguement? My point? You are using the "I like to fix things" crutch to avoid making decisions or sitting with the ones you have made. time to stop that and look at the data. She may come back, she may agree to keep OM out of your and your families life, she may actually fall in love with you. All of that would be good, but not enough. She would need to do the work on herself that you are doing on yourself or the same situation exists except that another poor soul has been added to the mix...the OC.

I am not encouraging you to change a thing. Nor give up hope. I am encouraging you to quit second guessing and get on with the job at hand, "fixing" your life.

God Bless,

JL
Thanks JL, yeah, this is the battle I'm in right now. Even if my WW comes around, will it be worth the battle? I just caught this post from SDCW_man:

Quote
Listen--there are waywards, and there are waywards-with-predisposing-problems. I know none of us are perfect and we ALL have made mistakes & done things we regret in our lives. But... some people carry so much pre-existing baggage that, when they become wayward, they really GO OFF THE DEEP END. Irretrievably and irreversibly (at least for the practical purposes of a desirable relationship recovery). I have come to learn and accept this, both about waywards in general and about my own (now) xWW. Here are some things IMHO that are historical major "red flags" in some waywards (WWs in particular) that make REAL recovery all the more difficult:

Dysfunctional childhood/upbringing
Dysfunctional family/parental relationships persisting into adulthood
Drug abuse
Excessive alcohol use/abuse
Past incest/sexual abuse
Excessive attention-seeking/drama-creation
Pre-marital sexual promiscuity or precociousness
History of 'overlapping relationships'
More than 1 affair (current A is not the 1st)
Insecurity, immaturity, low self-esteem, co-dependency
Excessive flirtatiousness/need for romantic validation
Poor communication skills/"expectation of clairvoyance" from others
"Facade maneuvers"--bravado, braggardness, name-dropping, unjustified bombasity
"Splitting" of people into good and bad camps w/o proper nuance and fairness
Repeat marriages, especially in short order (was their ex REALLY at fault as they say?)
Lack of introspection/inability to admit fault or error, even for trivial things
Casual, frequent "white-lies" (because telling the truth might actually require self-confidence)


I would ask any BS to take a long, hard look at this list and if you clearly recognize say 3 or more of these characteristics (and you WILL KNOW, believe me), strongly consider whether you even want to TRY to save this marriage...because these WSs are likely very damaged people with a tremendous amount of personal work to do BEFORE they can ever be real partners even AFTER the affair ends.

The highlighted entries apply to my WW (the A was attempted but OM did not reciprocate). Wow!!!! Seeing it that way really brings some things home.

I have some hard questions to ask myself...
Ind,

Yes you do, and frankly I don't envy you one bit. This is tough stuff you are dealing with, but deal with it you must.

I like SDCW_man's list. It seems consistent with what I have seen here. Just remember Harley feels that more marriages could be saved if people used his approach. He does not feel that all marriages should be saved. I think that the time given to you while you tried plan A and plan B allows you to assess the very things that SDCW's is talking about.

If the situation is as he stated, then the odds get long, very long.

I wish you the best.

JL
In all fairness, I actually would qualify for 3 things on that list: Dysfunctional childhood, Dysfunctional family relations persisting in adulthood, and sexual promiscuity before marriage. Of course, the first one isn't really the wayward's fault. You can pick your friends, but not your family. Arguably, the second one isn't really within most people's control either. It might be difficult to have a functional relationship with a dysfunctional family. As for the last one, oh that I could go back and change that, but it's difficult to turn the clock back 20 years.

The fact that InD's WW falls into so many of these categories is alarming. I had no idea that she attempted to have an A before but failed. I must have missed that somewhere, but that would be the biggest red flag to me. Repeat offenders are much more troublesome.

Yeah, it is a tough situation. No, not all marriages can or should be saved. In the end, InD, you are in the best position to answer whether your M falls into this category or not.
Quote
When the A first went down, my goal was Plan A until Jan. 3rd and then move to Plan B if I could. Filing for D was probably premature but I did it for two reasons: to protect myself and my kids and because I felt I had run out of options. In hindsight, my WW had nowhere to go so there was really no need for "protection" in that sense and I had still not exhausted the "time" option of letting the affair die. It's possible that WW could have filed before me but unlikely.


Understand that this is normal to second guess. However events could have taken a bad turn without taking legal actions. One never knows what the waywards are thinking and planning. You are in control of divorce process and can slow it down and even dismiss it if necessary.

Your WW has struck out 3 times in a short time period:

1 - Having an affair when she is a mother of 4 little ones including a toddler - by itself is unbelievable.

2 - Getting pregnant with OM.

3 - Showing no remorse and blatantly shoving the OM in your life.

It seems obvious that your WW is not playing with a full deck if she has not realized the destruction SHE has caused to so many people. The turmoil she has caused to her 5 children is beyond the pale. Give yourself a break and realize that you are not at fault.

I dont most times subscribe to the BS taking 50% of the blame in the marriage issues - you should have been treated with utmost respect whenever and whereever you go. Anyone who works to provide for his family of 4 kids and still has a SAHM wife is high on my list (in California no less). The ultimate disrespect is that she stepped out of the family to get impregnated by OM while under the privilege of not having to work outside the home. And that my friend is the crime to society and your family. She will no doubt have to receive state assistance and a substantial chunk of your pay to raise 5 children. All because she could not keep her panties up.

Remorse is when she comes back to the marriage asking for immediate forgiveness with no preconditions, adheres to your rules of reconciliation and has mascara dripping of her face because of the realization of the horror created by her actions.

Take care and know you now control how this path goes.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't she have sex with the OM in front of your littlest? You NEEDED to protect those kids, ID.
The more I read this site and see stories of success or success-in-progress the more I wonder if I played the game correctly, or if my particular circumstances made the battle almost impossible to win.

I found the MB site about 3 days after D-day and immediately put Plan A in place. It was working very well, even my WW admitted later that her feelings for me were improving, until of course, the pregnancy - and that's when things fell apart. The prospect of an OC brought my WW and the OM together in a way that I couldn't compete with. I can look back and pinpoint the exact day when what seemed like forward momentum quickly became a plummet back into the fog. And of course, it was the day she found out she was pregnant.

I don't think I've read any recent stories on the MB forums of a pregnancy during the A and I suppose that makes my situation different. I remember reading the main story in SAA and thinking "this is exactly my situation...well, except for the pregnancy." At the time it seemed like something I could move beyond if I stuck to the MB concepts. But the farther the pregnancy progresses it seems like the more the WW and OM come closer together, meanwhile driving me, and even the kids to some extent, away. It really sucks because I remember thinking how well my Plan A was going...

I bring this up because I keep vacillating between wanting to stick it out or accepting the inevitability of divorce and moving on. When I think about sticking around, eventually I come back to the question of why? What does my WW have that holds me here? When I think about moving on, the fear of the unknown and an uncertain future are paralyzing.

I took my vows seriously and when I married, I did so for life. But things were rocky from the beginning. I'm not sure if I've relayed how the marriage began. Even at the time I recognized it was a bad start.

My WW and I met when we were both 19. At the time I wasn't interested at all in marriage or anything else - I just wanted to play around. WW was fun, she adored me and I really liked being around her. I'm not sure when but as things progressed I tried to break up with her several times, only to find myself coming back around to her pleadings. Well, about 18 months in, she got pregnant (yeah...same beginning for the OM now, oh the irony). I was shocked, appalled, angry, bitter. I was 20, I had a part-time job as a waiter, made no money, lived at home - I was a bum. And here I was about to be a father. WW of course was thrilled, probably because this clinched the relationship. I was, um, not thrilled. However, it was clear that WW was going to keep the baby and I felt that the honorable thing to do, despite my misgivings, was to stick it out and raise the baby. Eventually, I agreed to marriage (at the time, cohabitation didn't bother me at all and i was in no hurry to be married) and we were married about 4 months after the baby was born.

The birth was awesome, as anyone who is a dad can attest to. It softened me up quite a bit but it didn't completely erase the bitterness. Inside, I think, there was resentment against not only my WW but also the baby. It wasn't completely conscious, sort of buried, but looking back, it was definitely real. And unfortunately, that bitterness manifested itself in ways I'm not proud of. Lots of yelling - way, way, way too many LBs. Early on, I think that my wife began erecting a wall and 5 years into the marriage, once I started making changes on my side, well, the wall was probably too thick and any attempts to tear it down, at that point, were futile. Had I realized this at the time I would have accepted my wife's requests for marriage counseling, but I was too prideful to think anything was truly wrong. So I continued moving forward, more or less blind to the wall and the state of our relationship.

I've never regretted the decision to marry my wife. She introduced me to my church and gave me four, beautiful, wonderful children. But, I always wondered whether there was someone better for me. We weren't really all that compatible. She had some substantial personality traits that I had a tough time getting past. I was never all that good at meeting her ENs. I guess the reality is that rather than willfully entering into marriage, we were thrown together, for good or otherwise. That's not the kind of solid foundation that a marriage needs.

So here I am now. I accept no blame for the A, but I certainly will take my 50% for the issues that led up to it. I bring all this up because I don't know whether or not I want to recover this marriage. Do I really want to try and repair a relationship that I went into unwillingly? Will I ever have a firm foundation? I'm not sure I will. I'm not all that sure of anything right now...
indarkness,

There have been plenty of MB members in your situation. Write1 is just one of them. If you go the pregnancy section just below this one, you find a fair number. I would solicit Pops, Autumn Day, and others to offer advice. Writer1 is offering you advice now.

The issue you really have is that while you want to fix things, you cannot. Unless and until your W decides she wants this marriage and is willing to do what it takes to protect you, then what you want does not matter. Currently with her actions, the divorce is on and in my opinion should stay on.

You don't need to worry if you should try and save this marriage right now, you cannot. She has to get OM out of her life and come back into your life. Until she does that, your decisions don't mean much.

I know you are in turmoil, but focus on your family, and your job and proceed until something changes. THEN you may get the opportunity to make a decision on saving this marriage.

God Bless,

JL
Is Runnerboy still around? He could give you good advice as well.
Originally Posted by MrWondering
...Now that I mentioned it...don't forget to battle this thing some on OM's side of the fence. Keep the pressure on HIM as probably 8 out of 10 or 9 out of 10 times these affairs end it's the MAN that gets fed up with the consequences and pulls the plug. IF OM is divorcing...he's about to become a single man. There's a world of uncomplicated trouble free women available to him. He MAY just dump her to pursue other interests. The more trouble and difficult you make this FOR HIM...the sooner he jumps ship. Be creative. Remember everything you say about OM to your WW will be nearly immediately related to OM. The feed off this drama...however, you can take advantage of this to send along MISINFORMATION. I used this knowledge to freak out OM. I knew the OM in our situation didn't make much money, lived with his parents and paid child support...so I casually told my wife how much money she spent the last year and EXAGGERATED it by leaps and bounds. Sure enough...she told him and I KNOW his little head was spinning wondering how he could ever afford to REALLY be with my wife. Our OM was also told by my wife about my golden gloves boxing career...with large embellishments again. Boy did OM's ears perk up....as OM's are all to aware they DESERVE a good beating and if you can instill even a little fear it's just one more thing pushing them to throw in the towel. My mother in law confronted OM and made him think my wife COULD BE mentally ill and she also implied that my family is connected (greek mafia) and he'd likely get hurt.
..Mr. Wondering

I was reading thru this long post and had to mention.. "The art of war?".. I agree with your tactics. cuz it is a war..

The link to the topic "The art of war" http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279149&page=1
I stayed up for hours reading this topic from front to back. My heart goes out to you ID.
At this time I hope you have realized that your WW is no longer "IN love" with you and is with the POSOM. I don't know if she is capable or ever going to be capable of loving you. But I know that right now she is living in escapism towards OM and probably blames you that she can't be with him. Along with all the other crap she probably blames you for.

The fact that you guys didn't start off with the "perfect" situation is not what will define your success. Its what you do when you fall that defines that. It becomes a relationship with whats the right and unselfish choices you make now. Even if your WW is acting like a spoiled child.

So, if you do everything to protect your innocent children and let them know that you respect God's rules about marriage more than WW feelings, what do you lose? Can't be your WW. Shes allready going. If you want to rekindle the love you have between your WW it needs to be done in the real world and with Gods rules. It will ultimatly be her choice anyway and she will have to come before God as a child herself to do it. She like a drug addict here in this thing. Her mind is affected by emotions and her thinking is sick.
These guys know about this here and the harsh things you must do in this battle are nessessary evils. Stand strong in your convictions and God will not leave you hanging.

PSU --Is Steering you straight about being prepared.

MrWondering-- Also the same and he has quite a lot of insite on how the wayward mind works. Its a dirty fight.

Writer 1-- I just have to say that you are the exeptional WW to respond to H unconditional love. I think its because you allready were a moral realistic woman before your mistake. You also had the humility to look at what running away from your M would do to others. I certainly hope that this marriage can be reconciled and that ID and his WW can recover and rebound. But as for now his WW has no problem with crucifing him to satisfy her feelings. He needs to take as much away from her as he can and I wouldn't put anything past her and the OM.
The consideration of her being preg is that she needs medical care and its hard for hormonal women to deal with emotions? Be kind to her and never get upset or angry. Don't let her bait you into arguments and stay strong. Please don't be her dumping ground anymore. The past is the past.
It never will be the same again but that doesn't mean it can't be good again. If there is ever going to be a reconciliation it will take time. Yes there is a miracle aspect that could bring them back but she doesn't seem to believe in God right now. Well not a God that created marriage anyways. So maybe in a year or so when she has seen what life is like with her new Mr. Wonderful she will be able to start to appreciate ID. Then maybe she can start working on change and trusting God, and of course the delegated authoritys he put here to help.


ID... You quoted a verse earlier so I wanted to share this one with you. It helped me when I was left and thought all was lost.
Jer 15:15-21

15 O LORD, thou knowest: remember me, and visit me, and revenge me of my persecutors; take me not away in thy longsuffering: know that for thy sake I have suffered rebuke.

16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

18 Why is my pain perpetual, and my wound incurable, which refuseth to be healed? wilt thou be altogether unto me as a liar, and as waters that fail?

19 Therefore thus saith the LORD, If thou return, then will I bring thee again, and thou shalt stand before me: and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth: let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them.

20 And I will make thee unto this people a fenced brasen wall: and they shall fight against thee, but they shall not prevail against thee: for I am with thee to save thee and to deliver thee, saith the LORD.

21 And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.


Stay strong for your yourself and your family. Don't be afraid to protect the innocent victims.

I am concerned that you will isolate yourself and feel defeated and I know what that road leads to. Everyone here cares about you so please keep in touch. I am glad you have people who can counsel you privatly also.
To me the road to a strong marraige will allways need the grace of God to survive. I hope that in the future you guys will have the intestinal fortitude to reconcile. The work will really start then.
There are plenty of people who are in your situation, ID. You are in no way alone in this situation.
From where I sit, I've seen too many BSs take the path of least resistance--keep plan A'ing until your brains fall out, only to watch the kids get taken away.
This is especially true for the BH's like you.
You have admitted that your wife is uneducated and that she has focussed entirely on her family up til now. Given the young ages that you were when you started, it's not surprising that she's going through this crisis.
That doesn't mean she has to dump the whole thing, though. She used to believe in her church and its tenets. She needs to go back to those now.
She's probably one of those people who has weak moral character unless guided by organized religion. In those cases, I'm all in favor of the church stepping in to help keep her on track.
None of us had perfect beginnings to our relationships. Each of us is flawed. We can look back and see where we went wrong, but we can't change the past. Only thing you can do is change the future. What can you learn from your past that will help you with your future?
And don't say your wife had no where to go, so you didn't need to file for D. She had the OM. She still does. Sure, he's getting colder feet right now, but if he knew he could have cleanly carved her away and lived on your $$, he's the kind of POS that would have helped your WW out the door.
You did what you had to do to protect YOUR children. At this point, the OC may or may not be in your life. Don't worry about that. Worry about your existing children, as they only have you to count on.
Your wife has done unimaginable things, like having sex in front of the youngest, and there will be a special place in hell for her if she doesn't get that straight.
First off, let me say that I agree with JL. You cannot work on saving your M unless/until your WW decides that she wants to. What you can do, however, is work on yourself. That way, no matter what your WW decides to do, you will come out of this a happier, more well-grounded person.

The reason my H and I are still together is because I made the decision to come back. Pure and simple. That decision was definitely influenced by the changes that I saw my H making in himself and by the love that he continued to show for me even when it seemed certain that we were moving toward D. But, it was still my decision to return and work on things and he couldn't make that decision for me. Until I committed to working on our M, the only thing he could do was focus on himself and on the kids, and that's what he did, all the while letting me know that he still cared about me deeply and really wanted to save our M.

He didn't file for D, but our situation was different. Our children were not young and custody probably wouldn't have been a huge issue. Judges are much more likely to take into consideration the wishes of the children when it comes to custody issues when the children are teenagers, and our youngest was 13 when my A began, our oldest already an adult. My H didn't really have to protect the kids the way you would with younger children. Also, the OM in my case was 3000 miles away, living in a tiny rented room because his BW had kicked him out. I guess my H didn't think it was all that likely that I would run to him, under the circumstances.

You have to do what is right for you and your children. That is all you can do for now. I know how frustrating that must be, but there is no quick and simple "fix" for this situation, and so much of it really is out of your hands.

You brought up the fact that your M got off to a rocky start. I would like to share my story with you. I'm sorry if this gets long. I've never posted some of this on this site, and I will in all likelihood publicly skewer myself here, but I just want you to know that it is never too late to make a fresh start (whether it be on your own, or with your W).

I was the product of an A. My mother was the OW. My father was Catholic, married, with three children when I was born. My mother and father's A lasted for 12 years, with my father telling my mother he intended to leave his family and marry her someday. My mother became a very bitter person. She viewed herself as the injured party in all of this. She never married, never had anymore children. I grew up feeling very unloved and unwanted. She had me to get my father to marry her and it didn't work and she never (to this day) has gotten over that.

I was a messed up teenager. I wanted desperately for someone to love me, and I went looking for that love in all the wrong ways. I decided I wanted to have a baby, because that way, I would have someone that would be mine and would love me forever. I got pregnant at 17. The father and I broke up before I even found out. When my first son was 10 months old, I met a returned missionary at a church dance that I went to with one of my LDS friends. I was taking the missionary discussions at the time and wanted to get baptized. I joined the church, started dating the returned missionary, and was pregnant within 3 months. We were in a very tumultuous relationship for two years, half living together half not, engaged at one point, separated more than we were together. During those two years, we conceived two children together. Finally, he got arrested for assault with a deadly weapon and I sent him packing for good. I found myself 21 years old, with 3 small children, still living at home, on welfare.

That's when I met my H, another returned missionary (and the boyfriend of my best friend, to boot). My friend went off on a mission and I stole her boyfriend. We dated for a year, got engaged in September, and I found out that I was pregnant once again in October. My H had a part-time job and still lived at home. We moved up the date of the wedding, got married in December, and my H moved into my grandmother's 3-bedroom home where I was living with my mom, grandma, and 3 kids. A week after our wedding my H came home from work visibly upset and told me that his ex-girlfriend (not my friend, by the way, but someone he had dated for 3 years in high school/college and been very much in love with) had showed up at his work and kissed him. He still had feelings for her. She had broken up with him just before his mission to marry a much older man to escape from an abusive home.

Thus began a EA/PA (though it never went "all the way") between my H and this ex-girlfriend that would span the first 10 years of our M. After the first kiss right after our wedding, he supposedly broke off contact with her. A year later, he confessed that he had been seeing her off and on and lying to me about it the entire time. He committed once again to not contact her, and again failed. Then, he convinced me that they were just "friends" and our family became best friends with her family. We went everywhere together, watched each other's kids, spent countless hours at each other's houses. Then, suddenly, it just stopped. We didn't hear from them anymore. I had no idea why, until 6 months later, my H confessed that the A had started up again and had gotten physical and almost gone "all the way," which had scared him so bad that he finally stopped all communications with her. When I found out about all of this, he'd already gone through a church court and been disfellowshipped and no one had even bothered to tell me.

I didn't know anything about R a M at that point. He said he never wanted to see the OW again and I decided to give him another chance and we just brushed that whole 10 years under the rug and carried on. But I never really got over it. I believed that my H stayed only because he finally realized that the OW wasn't going to leave her H for him. She was very materialistic and her H made way more money than my H. We fought all the time. I became very independently minded, going back to school, focusing all of my energy on my kids and on earning my master's degree. It was in my master's program that I met the OM and started my A.

So, not only did my M get off to the most rocky start imaginable, but so did my entire life. That list you posted earlier from SDWC Man, I think, bites me to the very core. Often, when I look back at my own story, I think how easy it would be to just give up and accept the fact that I am a broken person. But ultimately, I can't do that. This is my life and it is the only one that I have, so I have to make the best of it. I can't do anything about the mistakes I made in the past, but I can refuse to lie down and allow them to consume me.

We all have a past. It's what we take with us from that past, what we learn from it, and what we do with that knowledge and wisdom, that truly matters in the end. You can beat yourself up over the mistakes of the past until you are an emotionally bloody pulp, but what good would that do? Was your M a perfect match made in Heaven? Perhaps not. Were you the perfect H? Probably not, since no one is perfect. But, your WW's A was not your fault. She made the choices that she made. And she is still making choices today, choices you can't do anything about. You can let her know that you love her, that you care about her, that you're concerned about her, but in the end, she has her free agency, and no one can take that away.

The only person anyone really has control over is themselves. I really hope that the fog clears for your WW eventually. I hope you get a chance to R your M. But, for now, take care of yourself, take care of your kids, focus on what you can control - YOU - and leave the rest in the hands of God.
writer: you are awesome. I constantly have to remind myself that no matter how bad I think my situation is, there are others now, in the past, and in the future that have had or will have it worse, possibly much worse. Life dealt you a tough hand and it sounds like you've worked through it. I commend you for where you are today.

The refiner's fire is a tough one to endure. Thanks so much for all your support.
Originally Posted by indarkness
writer: you are awesome. I constantly have to remind myself that no matter how bad I think my situation is, there are others now, in the past, and in the future that have had or will have it worse, possibly much worse. Life dealt you a tough hand and it sounds like you've worked through it. I commend you for where you are today.

The refiner's fire is a tough one to endure. Thanks so much for all your support.

See, if anything, my story is always good for making others realize that they could be way more screwed up than they are. It's good to have a purpose in life. smile

Hang in there InD.
Writer: What an awesome story of redemtion and victory. It brought tears to my eyes. Very inspirational.

ID remember that this is a battle going on in your WW mind. You keep the faith and love her in spirit and truth. Remain calm and confident and the truth will win out.

I have allways been strenghtend by this --
"Trust God for the consequences of your obediance"

With all of the excellent counsel here I will just follow the thread and will let the people who allready are counselling take care of you.
Peace brother
Started working my way through toomuchtoosoon's thread here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1988538#Post1988538

I wish I had more time to read through all of these posts. It's amazing to watch the transformation as it happens. In this particular one, things seemed completely hopeless in the beginning, WW was all but done, and yet, in the end there was recovery. It seems like there can be hope.

I think I'm in a better place. I'm more ready to accept whatever happens - positive or otherwise. This morning I woke up and for the first time in 3 months, my first thoughts were not about the A, WW, OM or anything else. It was eerily pleasant. And then just this afternoon something (not sure what) hit a trigger and I was back at D-day - holy crap it was painful. Everything was there, the emotion, the hurt, everything. I was sitting there at my desk ready to burst into tears. But, within a few minutes, it faded away.

I no longer feel as though I'm a slave to the emotions. I feel like I have more control. More importantly, I'm feeling more comfortable with me - who I am, what I've done and what I'm doing now. I think the WW has lost her control over me. Of course, I keep worrying that something is going to come along and just knock me right back into the hole, just as I'm emerging from the darkness...but if/when that happens, I think I'll be ready.



>hit a trigger and I was back at D-day - holy crap it was painful. Everything was there, the emotion, the hurt, everything. I was sitting there at my desk ready to burst into tears

That happened to me in Walmart. I was merrily strolling along and BAM! I ended up in the family bathroom - the one that the mommies use when they are nursing so they have room and privacy - and was a puddly mess for about 15 min.

> I'm feeling more comfortable with me

This is HUGE! Very good!

> I think the WW has lost her control over me.

This is even better.
Good work, ID.
You can't change others--you can only change how you react to them...
I'm glad that you are getting yourself to a better place. You really can only work on yourself. Eventually, we all have to learn to accept the things that we cannot control. During my H's long term A, one of the most important things I had to learn was that his actions had nothing at all to do with me and who I was as a person. I had learn to accept that, even if he couldn't love me the way I wanted him to (at the time, at least) I was still a good person, worthy and capable of love. It took a long time for me to come to that realization, but I think we all have to get there at some point.

The triggers are difficult to deal with. It still happens to me sometimes, but the pain becomes more muted and distant with time.

Hang in there. It sounds like you are starting to heal. I hope your kids are doing well.
How are you holding up, ID? Thinking about you and your situation...
I'm better, but still swinging back and forth between "I love my wife and want to try my best to save the marriage" and "I'm ready to give up and move on." I really do love my WW but the futility of my efforts is disheartening. I mean, since the A continues and there's really no chance of NC right now, I guess I can't expect much else.

I thought I saw the fog clear ever so briefly a few days ago but it came back with a vengeance yesterday. It was tough because I caught a glimpse of the angel I once loved and I started getting my hopes up. Thankfully, I've been crushed often enough that I kept telling myself "no expectations" and of course the fog came back and the angel was gone...replaced by The Beast. So, this round didn't hurt as bad as previous ones.

If Plan B were a viable option, I would be preparing for it but since WW is a SAHM, kinda makes it tough. Besides, she claims that OM is now "fully committed" to marriage, etc. I guess we'll see once the divorce is final.

D will be financially devastating for both of us so she doesn't want to move out until D is final (sometime in May at the earliest). I doubt I can last that long but I still have some financial planning I need to put in place before I can start pressuring her to move out. I'm going to target March as a move out date for her...get her to start living on her own and feel some consequences. That should give me enough time to get things prepared from a financial and emotional standpoint and to get the divorce agreement in place.

In the meantime, I'm making improvements on my end. I'm working out more, spending a whole lot more quality time with my kids and generally just learning to be a better person. I'm also learning techniques to avoid thoughts of the A that drag me back into the abyss. Basically, I'm making sure that I come out of this whole thing a better man than when I went in.

Other than taking a sledgehammer to the OMs head, I don't think there's much more I can do right now.
One bit of positive news:

A few years ago I was involved in a startup that basically went nowhere. The company was sold off but I walked away with little to show for a lot of work. The owner of the company, in addition to some cash, also got stock in the company that did the buy out.

Anyhow, I guess the stock finally came to fruition because two weeks ago I received a check for $3000!!!! The owner sent me this as partial recompense for the work that I did.

I promptly cashed the check and gave a fat stack of hundreds to my parents for safekeeping. I'll retrieve it when the D is final. Be damned if WW is going to get her hands on this money...
I wish I had some words of wisdom for you. I'm all dried up at the moment.

I doubt the fog will start to break up for your WW as long as she doesn't have to deal with the realities of the situation she has created. Right now, she's still living in fantasy land, thinking everything is going to be perfect once she and the OM are married and living happily-ever-after. HA! It won't happen. Eventually, probably once she's living with OM and he's responsible for meeting all of her EN's and he starts falling short, which he's all-but-certain to do, she'll likely realize the grass isn't greener on the other side. Luckily, I realized that before I left. Maybe your WW will too, and maybe she won't. But she will realize it, someday, somehow, and it's going to be a huge and very rude awakening when she does.

I think you're doing all you can do. No matter what happens, it looks like you will indeed come out of all of this a better person, and maybe that will have to be enough. It certainly isn't a bad thing.

I'm still pulling for you, but unless your WW snaps out of it and realizes how lucky she is to have someone in her life who has stuck around and put up with this mess as long as you have, I think you deserve better.
ID, I'm so sorry to hear that the alien that took over your wife seems determined not to leave. Please protect your children from the evil that has become your WW and her disgusting OM.
Wow, I had to go back 24 pages to find this thread.

Just wondering how things are going InD. Not sure if you're still checking in here or not, but I've been thinking about you.
indarkness

Have you done a full exposure including the kids?

Who have you exposed?
Yeah, I think about ID's situation a lot...
Sorry for not updating. I think I've moved past the need for this forum. Not to be harsh, but it's kind of a downer reading other people's problems. It acts like a trigger.

My wife and I have pretty much come to a joint custody agreement and are preparing the divorce judgment at this time. We've been very cordial towards one another and short of the occasional flare up, things are proceeding in a manner that I deem best for the children, given the situation.

It is sad. My WW seems completely disconnected from reality. Just yesterday she changed her FB avatar to a OC ultrasound picture. It caused quite a stir amongst her acquaintances, as you can imagine, but she couldn't for the life of her see anything wrong with it. It's like I'm living with someone with a sub-70 IQ.

I've pretty much lost all affection for my WW. All that's left is sadness for her self-destruction and anger towards the consequences her decision will have on my children. I'm ready to move on.

I imagine that moving out will shake her up, but the OM is going to be there to catch her. So I'm not sure how much of a wake up call she'll get. Someone has always been there to catch her...which is just one of many problems she has. But, frankly, I just don't care. She's made her bed. Now she gets to live in it.

I'm walking out with 50% custody which is about the best I could hope for in this case. Finances will be tight but I already have a budget that I can work with. She's going to keep the kids close, which should make schedules, etc. easier to deal with. So, short of healing the marriage, I think this is the best road.

Yeah, it sucks. I wish things would have worked out differently. But you can't change people that don't want to change themselves. It's a tough lesson to learn.
I'm sorry to hear the news, ID.
Your wife is an idiot.
But you already knew that.
How are the kids reacting to the OC news?
Incidentally, I found today a long post from Pepperband. I hope you will find it therapeutic:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2236485#Post2236485

I'm truly sorry InD.

I hope you and the kids are doing okay.

I understand about reading the stories on this site. I don't read many of the newer stories now. They all sound so much alike. It can indeed get depressing.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel. It may not have been the light you were hoping for, but it is there, and I know you'll find it. It sounds like you're on your way to a better place.
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