Marriage Builders
Wow what a whirlwind it has been for the last year. My wife of 15 yeas (three children together) gave me the I love you but not in love with you speech. I found out about the affair a few months after. It was a DEEP affair for her and felt feelings she has "never felt before in her life". The affair was exposed to her parents freinds etc but not the OM's W. My wife went NC for a month and went through some serious withdrawal pains and began to question can she be happy with me, after the feelings she felt for another man like that. The OM opened up the affair again by giving her flowers on her birthday with a note. I did not know this and did not find out the affair was continuing albeit on far less of a scale because I was watching it like a hawk. I found out and we seperated. She said we were not compatible and that she loved me very much but was not in love. I still did not expose the affair to the OM's wife. I told him to leave the workplace (they work together and my daughters school), told my wife to stop contacting me and she could go do whatever she wanted with this man. He said he would and even said he resigned but he lied. Finally I mustered the courage to tell the wife. I gave him 3 weeks to prepare himself and let HIM be the one to tell her. At this point the OM begain to turn on my wife and all heck broke lose. The OM told my wife he does not love her enough to leave his own wife which really woke up my wife. I exp[osed the affair 4 days ago and now my wife is telling me EVERYTHING about the affair. Things I didn't know, even though she knew I would be angry. She said the reason she seperated was because of the OM, which she denied to everyone so many times. Exposure happened October 23 and what a difference that has made. The affair is finally crushed. He has gone back to his wife with his tale between his legs and my wife is left alone with all the revelations she will be coming to. My question is WHAT NEXT. Do I limit contact with her, be there to support her, be friends.. She needs space but I'm afraid she is cake eating with me. She said she is too chicken to file a divorce so does that mean she will continue to live like this until some other prince charming walks into her life???
Posted By: Howdidthishappen Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 02:51 PM
I know I got the same speech except it was I don't know if I am in love with you but I will always love you because you are the mother of my children. Maybe your wife is wanting to come back and wants you to forgive her. If you don't want to reconcile with her, then I say have little contact with her, except for when it is about the children. You shouldn't have to listen to her and all of her problems. She has hurt you enough, so you will have to decide what your next step will be.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Floridapad
My question is WHAT NEXT. Do I limit contact with her, be there to support her, be friends.. She needs space but I'm afraid she is cake eating with me. She said she is too chicken to file a divorce so does that mean she will continue to live like this until some other prince charming walks into her life???

It depends. Do you both want to save the marriage? What is the goal?

If she says she wants "space" that means she wants to be free to pursue her affair. Being that the affair was just exposed, I doubt the affair is over.
Posted By: imagine Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 04:28 PM
Hi again Floridapad,

Referring to our previous discussion do you KNOW that you want to come back to your wife since the heart to heart discussion with her?

By the by please read through the section marked "articles" in the red margin! It shore helped me...
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
If she says she wants "space" that means she wants to be free to pursue her affair.

It could also mean that she wants space to explore other options.

Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 05:06 PM
She did not say she wants space. I am assuming that since she is in the very early stages of withdrawal. She did say she hates the OM but I know that means she is still emotionally attached. I will know if there is contact because I have her cell phone login. No contact since the day before this wholoe thing went down. When we spoke I went off on her a little bit which was certainly a mistake on my part but I had to get it out. She invited me to her parents house for dinner after the exposure and I told her Thank you but I have plans. She knows I have dated a little and she became very interested in what my plans were. I did not tell her but she kept asking and I just never let her know. She is working her way through her "feelings" right now. This whole exposure stuff kind of brought us both back to square one. She said they have been breaking up for the last month and this was the nail in the coffin. She saw him for what he was. A cake eater. It's odd. She still introduces me to people as her husband. I know that doesn't mean much since technically I am, but in the early days after seperation she referred to herself as the exwife. All so confusing. I think she is testing the waters with me but still needs to sort out her feelings she felt in the affair. I just don't know how to handle it all right now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 05:13 PM
Florida, if you want the marriage to work, I would most definitely not date [you are married!!] and try to spend as much time with her as possible.

Does she still work with the OM?
Posted By: Pariah Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 05:27 PM
Floidapad, if you are dating another woman, it's called a revenge affair and it makes you an adulterer also.

There absolutely no way to justify it.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 05:30 PM
Yes she works with the OM but not directly. They have rooms at opposite ends of the campus and my wife knows this will be the difficult part but if she wants to avoid him she can. As far as dating goes, she still needs to know I am moving forward. My fear is that I don't want her to think I am simply waiting around for her. If I focus too much on her she will cake eat with out a doubt.

She sent me the following e-mails

"I only have a few minutes because we have conferences in 10 minutes. BUT it was not about you. I do not hold you responsible for ANYTHING. Everything you say I just recently realized. It is not about that......I know he loves his wife. I know he was full of [censored]. I see everything in a whole new light now. I really do. See? You still don't believe me, but I really don't blame for not believing me. IT'S OK. I see it.

Sorry to be so short, but I have to go....... "

and...

"I NEEDED to feel what I am feeling now to get ovet him. I don't blame anybody but myself for being so stupid. I did believe EVERYTHING he said. I never really had anybody lie to my face the way he did. He did lead me on, many, many , many times. I unfortunately tend to trust people. BUT his actions just LATELY showed me his true self. With how he acted with me and with her. It is the hardest thing I am coping with right now.

I know how hypocritical this is me telling you. I did the same thing to you. I lied to you, I deceived you and I am truly sorry. I couldn't do it anymore and that's why we separated. I hope you can forgive me. I don't blame you for not trusting/believing anything I say. I NEVER proved to you I could be trusted.

I am sorry...... "
________________________________________

Not sure what this all means....


Posted By: MelodyLane Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 05:45 PM
floridapad, you can't very well complain about her adultery when you are doing the same thing, though. How do you object to her affair with a straight face when you are doing the same thing?

There are much better ways to prevent a WS from cakeeating than committing adultery yourself.

Bringing a 3rd person into this mess only complicates any hope of reconciliation and is not fair to the 3rd person. You are not available to date when you are married so you are wasting this other persons time.

If you want to recover your marriage, I would suggest calling Steve Harley at Marriage Builders and getting him to assess your situation and give you a PLAN for recovery. This is far from hopeless, but you need a PLAN.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 06:38 PM
Melody I hear what you are saying and it something that I am thinking of discontinuing because it doesn't feel right. I still think the wife needs to know I am moving on in order for her to get a sense of loss.

I was thinking about talking to a coach but this site seems like one geared towards couples who both want to make it work and not where one is going through an MLC and is in limbo land and not willing to do MC at this point. A little more insight on the W. She turned 40 got a boob job, started going to the gym, straightened her hair and the the rest is history. She is a very guilty person by nature and she is owning up to the whole thing but has not expressed any desire for full reconciliation. After we seperated she even signed up on match.com to try and get over the other man. She went on a couple of dates and realized it was a bad idea and made a point to tell me she is no longer doing it (yeah we'll see how long that lasts). She has major self esteem issues and I think this MLC is both about her self esteem and regaining some of her youth back. She is highly intelligent but emotionally retarded (so said the IC).

I would love to know how MB works in my situation where one person wants the marriage to work and the other one is apprehensive and in affair withdrawal. She has to get her arms around the notion of love and why she kept going back even though she was crushing everyone around her because they knew she was screwing up.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 06:50 PM
FP, Steve Harley is a marriage coach. That is what he does. He will give you a sane, rational plan to attract her into the marriage.

But having affairs yourself will not bring your wife back. You can see that is not working.

She will be attracted back by the prospect of a good marriage, not a cheating husband. That is not attractive. Nor will it give her a "sense of loss;" she was already completely emotionally detached from you so there is nothing to lose.

MLC is a myth. Your wife is acting like this because she is in an affair. This is how all affairees act, whether they are 20,30, 40, 50 or 60.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 06:56 PM
FlaPad,

I don't think you fully understand MB. First YOU have to make some decisions. Do you want to try and save this marriage or not? If not, then proceed with the divorce and get on with your life. If you are not sure, then sit tight don't date and see what happens with your W. If you do, you sit tight, but you decide on a plan to bring your W back into the marriage.

You see fearful that your W will think you cannot move on, or that you can be run over if you don't date and show her you can move on. What you are missing is that it is not your W that needs to know what you can and cannot do, it is you.

So let's start with your moral code. Is it alright to date while married? Is it alright to play around while married? What do you think marriage really means? You need to address these things...right now.

Next, you may notice I am not saying much of anything about your W. Oddly, most of the decisions rest with you and you only. You start making decisions and we can help you make plans to execute them. If it is divorce, then life is straightforward and simple, but it won't be easy.

If you are not sure, I strongly urge you to read about plan A and plan B. If you are sure you would like to save the marriage then I strongly urge you to read about plan A and plan B. Finally, I would strongly urge you to act like a man and quit playing games with your W. Be straight up, be honest and quit with the bring other women into this mess. There have been enough games played already and someone has to get their feet on the ground, that would be YOU.

If you are not sure, or think you might want to try and save the marriage you will need to set some conditions. OM must be gone, there must be No Contact between them which means one of the two leaves the job. She must decide she wants to work on the marriage. It would seem to be counseling is a must and the Harley's are the best at saving marriages.

As you can see you have a whole lot of things to do, before you start worrying about your WW. That will come in time.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: TheRoad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 07:17 PM
Floridapad

I call bull manure on you dating while you are still married.

You want to date then get a divorce first.

You want to show your WW that you are moving on then do it. When WW calls don't always answer. Return the call the next day. Say you were not home. If she catches you at home and wants to make plans tell her you allready have plans, you are unavailable, then make sure you leave your house that day/time. Offer to meet up another time.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 07:27 PM
JL

I have made my decision to save the marriage but I can not fully emotionally open up until I know she wants it to and makes the changes I need. I have looked at myself inside out in this marriage, my relationship with my parents childhood relationship, spiritual relationship, and found myself forgiving myself for many things. I KNOW the marriage could succeed from my end, but if she doesn't go through the same awakening I will not be able to trust her.

I have detached fairly well from her, but this Exposure thing had us communicating alot and it sucked me back in a bit. Got me angry a bit, but nothing like the early days.

My moral code is fairly strong. Yes I have dated, but I beleived that the marriage was completely dead until she started telling me all these things lately. The covenent has been broken by her and if dating because I don't have a peice of paper yet makes me immoral then well I guess I'm immoral. But I am going to rethink this now so no need to drive this point home. I get it.

I know it won't be easy to work on this marriage, especially since she is in limbo land. I will read about PLan A and Plan B. Thank you.

Also regarding your last comment. Your 100% correct. I need to man up and stop playing games. Thank you for pointing that out. It is just odd though that when she found out I was dating she all of the sudden became more interested in me.

Thank you all for your input
Posted By: catperson Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 07:28 PM
Besides, you are only using this woman, whoever she is, for either comfort or SF. You have no intention - and are nowhere near ready - to invest in any other kind of relationship.

Therefore, this woman you have seen IS BEING USED.

I would hope you are a better man than that.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 07:34 PM
You both sound like you're pretty egotistical to me. I don't mean to be harsh, but the idea of having a revenge affair on your part, and her "total body makeover" combine to show two people who are more concerned about their own need than that of the marriage as a whole.
I would say you both need to do a little growing up and decide where your true priorities lie.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 07:47 PM
You know I was afraid of this site. Extraordinarly judgemental but I thought I would try anyways. Let me say this

I did not have a revenge affair as you all seem to call it. I waited 6 months to date two girls and it didn't feel right. I didn't even kiss them. My wifes recent admissions made me realize that maybe she still does have a toe in the marriage which previously I did not feel she had.

So please stop with the adultery name calling. Does anyone on this site have any real advice rather than calling me names. OK I get it I'm an adulterer and should stop dating. THEN WHAT???????
Posted By: turtlehead Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 08:00 PM
Educate yourself about ENs (emotional needs) and strive to meet her top ENs. Note that her top ENs will be different from yours, so just because sharing recreational activities is super fulfilling for you, it may not be for her. She may have a high need for domestic support, so you should be cleaning the bathrooms, doing the laundry, cooking dinner, or vacuuming the rug. They key is to learn what the various ENs are, learn what her top three are, and meet THOSE.

Educate yourself about LBs (love busters). Learn to recognize them - some are very elusive - and eliminate them completely.

Figure out what a marriage looks like to you. By this, I mean figure out what you expect her to do to earn her way back into the marriage, and what you expect from her if she wants to stay in the marriage. Don't express these to her yet, just be figuring it out in your own mind.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 08:04 PM
ok, florida, are you ready to get to work? We are willing to help if you are. smile
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 08:24 PM
I am ready but I will say this. I have read the emotional needs and aside from admiration (which she will not except because she feels horrible for what she did to me) and domestic support (which I obviosuly can't do being seperated, I don't know what her other emotional needs are

As far as Plan A & B goes. The affair is done. Could it rekindle in a couple of months when they both happen to bump into each other. Perhaps it's possible but my wife thinks he is an extraordinarly manipulative man who is a coward but I know she still has feelings for him but she feels like the affair has finally run its course and her admitting everything to me is a good sign. She won't leave the work place because she hasn't committed to the marriage yet so why should she (in her mind).

This is the hardest part is "drawing" her back into "wanting" the marriage again. She said she has seen the changes I have gone through over the last 1.5 years, but she was too week and addicted tot he affair......But I think she is afraid to go back to the marriage for fear it will always hang over our heads.

Posted By: turtlehead Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 08:29 PM
You can admire her, whether or not she accepts it. Just do it!

Domestic support - does she ever come to the place you live? Do you have it vacuumed, dusted, picked up? Are the bathrooms clean? Do you have candles burning so it smells good? Nice music playing? Maybe some fresh flowers out?

Do you ever go to her place? Can you take care of something that needs doing at her place? Mow the grass? Paint a dingy room? Rake the leaves? Fix a broken mailbox?
Posted By: catperson Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 09:03 PM
What now? You print out the Love Buster questionnaire and either ask her to fill it out (tell her you just want to see where you went wrong), or try to figure out what your LBs are that she doesn't like.

Then make a conscious effort to STOP doing them!

Once you have that down, do the same thing with the Emotional Needs questionnaire. See, it's not up to you to decide what her ENs are. That's what the questionnaire is for. But do the LB one first; if you are LBing her, it doesn't matter how many ENs you meet, cos she'll still be perpetually upset with or distant from you.

In a couple months, once you stop all LBs and meet all ENs, you should be seeing changes in her as you become more like the man she would want to fall in love with.

As for her fear, YOU are the only one who can change that - by being steady, loving, patient, introspective, kind, and inquisitive of her thoughts. MAKE her feel safe around you.

btw:
Quote
OK I get it I'm an adulterer and should stop dating. THEN WHAT???????
It hurts to hear things about yourself that you wouldn't like in someone else. But it's a great way to learn and grow - and become the person who COULD get your wife to want you back. Then what? Then you either fight for your marriage and your wife back, or you divorce her and THEN go on a date. NEVER before; you just never know how that can blow up in your face, or hurt someone else. There simply isn't any room in a marriage for dating someone else.
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by Floridapad
Melody I hear what you are saying and it something that I am thinking of discontinuing because it doesn't feel right. I still think the wife needs to know I am moving on in order for her to get a sense of loss.

It's called filing for legal separation or divorce, not dating. Why drag another party into your mess? Do you really think a decent woman would date a married guy or would it be a desparate one with no sense of marital boundaries?

You need to make a decision. Do you want to stay in this marriage? Insist on NC w/ OM (that means another job) and move back in. Have you done exposure to your WW's work? That might solve the NC problem for you.

And listen, we're not judgmental, we're just black and white. If you are married, no dating. Period. If you start allowing reasons for dating when married you start going down a slippery slope that leads you to where your wife is. I would certainly understand wanting to start dating, but that doesn't make it right. We are just trying to help you out. Let's say you do eventually get back with your wife. If you already had a girlfriend, wouldn't that complicate things?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 10:07 PM
Well, I believe being judgmental is a virtue. I try to be as judgmental as possible. smile

Anywho, FD, what I think you should do is start dating her. Work on wooing her back, while avoiding all lovebusters.

And...............call up Steve Harley and get a plan!!
Posted By: Just Learning Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 10:08 PM
FlaPad,

You have been given quite a bit of good advice. Have you really been reading it or feeling to defensive to give it much consideration?

Like to hear your thoughts on what has been said so far.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: ouchthathurt Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 10:17 PM
Floridapad She is obviously using you as the back up. For her to say that she was ending it was total BS too. Stay strong and make her work her butt off b4 you give an inch. The fact is you can't even trust her that if someone else came along she wouldn't do the same thing. All this would be different if she had done anything to reconcile b4 she got the big dump.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/27/09 10:31 PM
You have to get WW to go total NC. That means a new job.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 12:51 AM
Cat person - Thank you for the advice. Finally some real advice based on action. Thank you

JMWC - I hear where you are coming from on the black and white thing. Unfortunately the message from other posters was not delivered in such a kind way so I don't listen to them...

Melodylane- Judgement is not a virture. One of the "love busters" is not to pass judgement. It's not good to do.

Turtlehead - Yes I go to her place but she needs to feel what it is like to not have me do the domestic stuff. Perhaps domestic support was not her emotional need afterall. She needs to figure that out...Catch my drift???

THe Road - I dont have to get my WW to do ANYTHING. That would be controlling and she aint in to that/She needs to do it on her own....If she doesnt then she can go take a hike!!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by Floridapad
Melodylane- Judgement is not a virture. One of the "love busters" is not to pass judgement. It's not good to do.

You are confusing judgment with "disrespectful" judgments within the confines of a romantic relationship. BIG DIFFERENCE. Judgment most certainly IS a virtue; judging right from wrong is how people navigate life. It is a DISRESPECTFUL JUDGMENT that is a lovebuster within the confines of a relationship in which you are building a LOVEBANK for the purpose of creating romantic love. That does not mean one should cease judging right from wrong.

Our prisons are full of "non-judgmental" people who cannot judge right from wrong. And that is EXACTLY where they belong. People who can't judge are dangerous.
Posted By: black_raven Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 01:11 AM
Have you spoken with OMW directly to confirm that she knows of the A?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 02:22 AM
"I dont have to get my WW to do ANYTHING. That would be controlling and she aint in to that/She needs to do it on her own"

Yes, better stated as you need to set a new job as a boundary, as part of NC for your WW to meet as a condition to attempt recovery and married.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 11:16 AM
Melody - Thank you for the clarification... I see where you are coming from.

Black Raven - Yes I spoke with her directly. I shared the conversation with my wife. She became a bit emotional at what was said. I told my W that the OMW felt like her H was two people. I told my W that the OMW cried because they had their anniversery some time ago and the OM made his W feel loved and special. My W told me that the OM sent my W two e-mails on his anniversery. This all affected by W deeply. Exposure has really brought all this stuff out and it is hitting my wife hard.

The road - My W has not yet overtly stated she wants back in the marriage. If I put such a huge demand on her right now I think it would prevent her from even considering coming back. I will wait on this one until she makes overt gestures to come back.

I do beleive the affair is over.....for now. I do have access to her cellphone account(without her knowledge) so I will know if contact takes place again.

I still don't know where to go from here. I will look at the LB's and do my best to avoid them. She is still on MAtch.com and I'm not sure how to deal with that even though she said she is not dating anymore. Do I initiate conversation with her. Do I tell her I'm going to stop dating because we are still married. So many details!!!!
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by Floridapad
I still don't know where to go from here.

I would suggest starting by asking yourself the questions - do you REALLY want to have your WW back in your life, and if so, why. What characteristics about her lead you to believe that she's the person with whom you want to have a lifetime commitment. I'm getting the impression that you're not really sure about taking her back after her adultery, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 01:10 PM
OK I have a short term plan. I would love to know what you think. The OM is going through affair withdrawal as is my wife but I think my wife will be a little stronger in this. After my wifes exposure, he was the one that opened it up. My fear is that he will do something like that again. I told my wife he may call her down the road and that she might not want to pick it up. She said she would just to tell him off. We all know that NC means NC and that would not be NC but she doesn't get it yet. I need leverage to prevent her from picking up the phone. She sent me this e-mail a few weeks ago when I told her I didn't want to have any realtionship with her in any form. It's an excerpt.

""I know that I care about you. I care about what you do and what happens to you. I am sorry I hurt you, and saying I didn't mean to, means nothing, I understand. I know that you are still angry with me. I understand, I get it. But I know as well as you do, that we have our children together, and we will always be a big part of each other's life, forever. I want that, I need that for me and for them. I do love you, and I really miss having you in my life, even if just as a friend. I thought we were getting there......""

This e-mail was out of panick after I told her I could have no more relationship with her in any form after I found out she was still talking to the OM (to wrap up lose emotional ends as she put it"

So since she has not overtly come back to the marriage I can use the friendship think as leverage. Tell her that even if the OM tries to contact her she can not respond. If OM tries to slip her a note she should not take it. IF OM calls don't answer. If she wants to work on a friendship then this is what I need. I can then give her the love busters thing and say "this is a two way street and ask her to complete it and I would work on my part. BTW is their a love buster questionairre. I can't find it.?? Please provide feedback. I pick up the kids tonight and plan on e-mailing her this excerpt and say "If you want to be friends like you say then let's talk"

Please advice. Thanks

Posted By: black_raven Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by Floridapad
I still don't know where to go from here. I will look at the LB's and do my best to avoid them. She is still on MAtch.com and I'm not sure how to deal with that even though she said she is not dating anymore. Do I initiate conversation with her. Do I tell her I'm going to stop dating because we are still married. So many details!!!!

Tell her you are going to stop dating (because you are married, want to try to reconcile) and stop. If you are serious about attempting R, you dating is kind of a no duh. I think you should tell her you want her to do the same and leave it at that. I would not specifically mention match.com as you can use that later on to see if she is being honest about not dating anymore. Don't give up that resource just yet.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 01:55 PM
Man in Motion - I am sure about taking her back only if she fights for it and makes the changes I need to see (i.e repentance to God and openess) She was once a very spiritual person but lost all of that. She did say she plans on talking to the preist but not right now. If this doesn't occur then no way would I take her back. If she doesn't prescribe to a marriage rebuilding program then no way.

Black Raven - She has not yet committed to going back to the marriage so I cannot make these demands on her .....yet.

I truly think I need to start with the friendship thing. She knows I will never be her friend while she has contact with the OM and that she understands. I will stop dating but not let her know for now. I will not say I'm dating either. Once I feel the friendship side has blossomed, we will go from there and then I will let her know I have stopped dating. It's too early after the affair to talk about reconciliation. She feels I would never let her forget it so I have to work the freindship thing a while and avoid the LB's.


Make sense???
Posted By: jmwc95 Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 03:57 PM
She is not going to commit to the marriage until she has gotten completely through withdrawal (which she can't as long as she works w/ OM). Now that she and OM are on the outs, I think it would be the perfect time to lay down your marital boundary of getting a different job because she doesn't want to lose both of you.

Thinking your WW is going to commit to the marriage w/o NC and w/o you failing to meet her needs is not going to happen. You need her to leave her job and you to move back in and be patient with her as she gets through withdrawal. That would be the best recipe to recover your marriage. We know what we are talking about. If you came here 6 months ago, we would have told you to expose, and look how that did. You could have saved yourself months of suffering.

Also, if you want the best advice from the most helpful and experienced posters, don't argue with them about the dating thing. Just say, "you are right, I shouldn't be dating," drop it, and focus on the advice they are giving you for getting your wife to commit to the marriage again.
Posted By: black_raven Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Floridapad
Black Raven - She has not yet committed to going back to the marriage so I cannot make these demands on her .....yet.

I said this: "I think you should tell her you want her to do the same and leave it at that." Expressing your wish is not a demand. Don't get lost in the things you shouldn't say or do to the point that you aren't doing anything.

Quote
Make sense???

If you want to walk on egg shells and let a WS steer the boat.
Posted By: Howdidthishappen Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/28/09 05:02 PM
Floridapad, maybe I am the last one to even offer any advice to you, because like I said to you before, I am only 2 monthes into the realization that my H cheated on me. I too think that many have been very critical on this thread. I know that I am having a hard time with dealing with WH for what he did to me. The hurt you feel is real and instead of being judgemental of you, maybe 1st lets get you through the hurt, just as I need to do. Take it slow, think about what you want. Do you think you could ever forgive WW for cheating on you? If you think you can and you truely want to reconcile, then take it slow, and let her know, that she is the one that created all the hardship, shame, and hurt on you and everyone around you. She must prove that she is worthy of you. Once she has made an effort, then go to the next step. MC is nice and maybe can help you. If you don't think you can live with what she has done, then walk away, free and clear, and don't ever look back. A counselor would be a good idea for you. They are impartial professional who can help you deal with all the grief and hurt you feel. And I want to say, just for the record, I don't think just because you dated 2 women that makes you equal to you WW. We all need to try to rebuild and move on, and I personally think that a seperation, (which in my state you need no piece of paper to be legally seperated, you may act as if you were never married during the seperation period), maybe is what you need. Clear the head and really think long and hard as to what YOU WANT. It is not about her, it is about you and you have to make that decision. You are dealing with all the pain all of us go through when one of our spouses cheats. I think that some on this thread can deal with their grief easier than maybe you or I can. But we are going to survive whatever decisions we make and I really wish you the best of luck.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/29/09 02:52 PM
Hello everyone..I really need help. I am depsperate..I sent an e-mail to my wife yesterday as follows:

Hi
How are you doing?? Don�t worry I�m not sending you anything related to affairs or any stuff like that. I�ve done enough �lecturing�.
I do want to ask you one question though if you don�t mind giving me an honest answer. Did you mean what you said below or was it completely out of emotion?? Think about it.. I just want an honest answer. Really..Be honest..
��I know that I care about you. I care about what you do and what happens to you. I am sorry I hurt you, and saying I didn't mean to, means nothing, I understand. I know that you are still angry with me. I understand, I get it. But I know as well as you do, that we have our children together, and we will always be a big part of each other's life, forever. I want that, I need that for me and for them. I do love you, and I really miss having you in my life, even if just as a friend. I thought we were getting there......
So, if and when you can find it in your heart to really forgive me, and I hope you will, I want you to be a big part of my life, and I want to be a big part of yours. But I know that life isn't always fair, and I understand that if that never happens, I will have to live with that for the rest of my life. ��

She said she did mean it and she still does..She asked why I asked and I responded below


I ask because I want you to know what friendship means for me and what I need in order to emotionally open up and be friends with you or any one else. I think you can guess for me, friendship is about 1000% honesty, loyalty, trust & forgiveness. I know you have not succeeded all too well at this and I have had my shortcomings in the past but that is where forgiveness comes in. Friendship to me means being completely open with the other person. Radical honesty. It means taking actions to reinstate trust once it has been broken in such away. I need to know I can trust you and you can trust me 1000%. I will be honest. I am still very apprehensive about the situation and you working in the same place makes it tough for me to trust that somehow things will not lead down a slippery slope again as it has in the past so many times. I really want a fast forward button and not a rewind button and only your actions can prevent you from hitting that rewind button again. In order for me to open up I need to KNOW that you will avoid ALL contact. The reason why all the professionals say No Contact is mandatory is because they have seen it a thousand times where even when there is a bad breakup after the affair, if contact in its minimal form is opened up, it leads down a slippery slope even if those weren�t the initial intentions. It stops the emotional detachment and opens it up again, even if it is anger. I need to know that you will not contact him and if he contacts you that you will not pick up, or hang up, you will not respond to his e-mails, take his notes, �accidentally� bump into each other. I need you to be 1000% honest with me if he initiates some form of contact so that I (yes I) can contact him back. Not you. If I contact him back instead of you he will KNOW you are being 1000% honest with me and that is the choice you are making. If he wants to continue to lie and deceive his wife those are his issues but if he ever contacts you, leaves you a message for WHATEVER reason, �bumps� into you in the hallway, I need to know. Going down that path in my view would be a slippery slope and one that I am not willing to go back to ever again.

These are the actions that if you feel you can do then I can begin to work on forgiveness and repairing a friendship that could be very happy. This is friendship. This is love, this is caring. Please think about this.


She said she has no intention of contacting him which I do not beleive. She had a very DEEP connection with this man and the break up went bad and I think she wants to smooth things over with him for purposes of her self esteem. She said she does not know 100% that she won't pick up the phone if he calls but that she would tell me. I think DEEP down she wants the marriage to work but the break up with her soulmate occurred only a week ago and she is in major withdrawal. Don't know where to go from here. I tried to set boundaries above and she gave me a 90% committment. Where do I go. Do I act bright and cheery and do the holidays with her and the family to make her happy and see how she can be happy with the family. Do I limit contact. I don't know where to go. PLEASE PLEASE HELP.
Posted By: imagine Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 10/29/09 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Floridapad
Where do I go. Do I act bright and cheery and do the holidays with her and the family to make her happy and see how she can be happy with the family. Do I limit contact. I don't know where to go. PLEASE PLEASE HELP.

Yep! You need to read the articles.

Plan A is about exposure and meeting her emotional needs. Read the form of needs and get her to participate after her withdrawal.

The above comment sound pretty good. Do it, but expect your taker to kick in after about 6 months. there is usually a rebellion to recovery after approx that time.

One of you needs to commit. Is that person you? Then tell her that you wish a new marriage... Continue reading the articles!
Posted By: Floridapad Where do I go from here - 11/01/09 04:28 PM
Some of you may know my story. MArried 15 years 3 children wife had a very deep "spiritual" affair as she calls the OM relationship. I finally exposed the affair after many months to the OM's wife and the OM and my wife turned on each other as the OM told my wife he doesn't love her enough to be with her. She saw that he has been cake eating and lying to her and now wants to move on but she is in MAJOR withdrawal now for two weeks. My question is where do I go from here. She is not ready to think about the marriage right now because she said she needs to move past her feelings for this man but she has not discounted the marriage entirely nor has she said she wants to try after she has moved past him. She says she loves me and care for me alot but she needs to get over this man.

Do I be freinds with her and be there when she needs me or simply move on. The holidays are here. Do I do the family thing for Christmas with the kids or act like a divorced couple. I do believe it is definately over with the OM and I would be able to verify because I have her passwords (without her knowledge). Do I slowly show her the love I have and try to have her see something new with us. If so how long do I wait for her withdrawal. How much contact should I have with her during this period. I'm so confused. I have seen the love busters list and I will work on avoiding those. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Posted By: Bellevue Re: Where do I go from here - 11/01/09 04:56 PM
Welcome.
You have implemented Plan A, your exposure broke up the affair. I don't remember the Withdrawal Timeline, but two weeks sounds like the blink of an eye.
In Plan A you demonstrate how wonderful your marriage can be. It will feel like you are filling a bathtub by using an eyedropper. You won't get immediate results and you will want to give up. Here is where you draw on your inner strength. If you need support, the MB Boards is the place to ask for it.
If you act like a divorced couple, that's how you could end up.
Be confident, confidence is attractive.

There are people here who have saved their marriages and are happier now than they were before their spouses cheated on them. You can do this!
Posted By: Floridapad Re: Where do I go from here - 11/01/09 05:46 PM
Thank You Bellevue.

I will look up plan A. I think your right about the divorced couple thing. If we act like that, that is what we will be. With that in mind I will spend the holidays with her. My fear though is that they work together, on opposite ends of the campus, and it will make it difficult for her to let go. She will not leave her job but she has said this is the final breakup and she sees no future with the OM, but she admits it hurts either way.

Not sure when or how to approach her on the emotional needs thing. I'm thinking during the holiday break when she has had time away from school for a few weeks.

Thank you for the support. I really need it right now. I feel like this exposure thing brought me back to day one of the affair (emotionally speaking).

Posted By: Just Learning Re: Where do I go from here - 11/01/09 06:26 PM
Foridapad,

I thing where you go from here is plan A, but one that is not mentioned as often as it used to is the concept of an evaluation point in plan a.

Your W is not the only one that has to deal with OM's presence in your marriage you do. What are your plans? One part of the plan is to set a date where you evaluate the marriage, how you feel, what your goals are. After withdrawal, recovery is not for wimps. It will take all of the love you have to preserve this marriage. So at your evaluation point, see if there is progress albeit small progress. Are you seeing baby steps? Are you still feeling like you want to save this marriage? How is your energy level? Has your W developed any plans to help restore this marriage? Have you two talked?

Are you getting my point? Right now this is too new for you to make any decisions, but eventually you must. So must your W. She cannot expect to sit on the fence and play house with you for any lengthy period of time.

Meanwhile, be nice to your W, focus on your kids, have a good holiday period and work on yourself.

You need more data, and the best way to collect it is to move ahead with plan A, set your evaluation points, and see what your W does.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,
JL
Posted By: imagine Re: Where do I go from here - 11/01/09 06:37 PM
The rule of thumb is Plan A 6 months for a guy but only 6 weeks for a lady. The next step is Plan B.

It is essential to learn how to avoid argument and meet her EN's without committing any lovebusters. You can restore your marriage just by doing these things. If her actions cause you to lose love for her, then it is time to do a Plan B.

Plan B is a loveletter that informs her of your desparate need to keep your love for her before it is killed. Leave her with an intermediary who will communicate as go between. The letter spells out the course of action she needs to take for recovery.

Plan B is a place where you can recover your own identity. The effect of the Plan A comes to bear where she holds good memories of you when you "departed".

Your efforts to regain your marriage will be harder than a divorce. The positive part of the effort is that you have the potential of great improvement as a husband.

Are you up for this?
Posted By: Floridapad Re: Where do I go from here - 11/01/09 08:07 PM
Thank you all for the input. It has been so hopeful. I do want to add some additional info in case it might change your guidance. A happened 1 year ago, seperated six months ago after she broke NC. She had seen him on and off after the seperation for the last 6 months (which I did not know about) and I finally decided to expose the A to the OMW because he would did not leave the workplace (which also happens to be my childrens school). She had an incredibly deep feeling with this affair, one she says she never felt with me. That is something I am trying like heck to get past. I know that affairs create feelings of intensity that can't be found in "normal" relationships because of the cake eating going on, but unless SHE accepts this and understands it my fear is that I won't be able to stay in the marriage or have any notion to want to try

Just learning - Great advice. I do want to save this marriage for now and I do have a list in my mind of things I need from her. (repentance, acknowledgement that affairs are not real world, etc. etc.) I do have a question!!!!!! are there any other things I should definatively hear from her in order for me to take her back should she decide.

Imagine - When you say rule of thumb for a lady is 6 weeks (or approximately), I'm not sure what you mean. Plan A for six weeks and then go to Plan B?? This affair has been on a and off again for quite sometime but now that exposure has occurred it appears final. For me, divorce is harder than recovering my marriage. I for now can't wait to start recovering my marriage. I can't wait to learn about myself and my wife during the process. Thats what gives me my strength. Wanting to learn to make a great relationship and applying it.

Thank you both for the input. Very helpful
Posted By: imagine Re: Where do I go from here - 11/01/09 09:20 PM
Whoa!

Recovering marriage on MB is about the Plan A and Plan B method. You (a guy) must spend approx 6 months doing a Plan A.

I do believe that a divorce is hard work. Going through adultery can be even harder. There is a formula here that works on the the predictability of a WS. An affair is almost always sweeter. More tender. You cannot fight fantasy.

Sadly, you cannot educate them either -not while they are in the fog. Sometimes there is no apology, yet the marriage continues healthily.

Recovery occurs when you meet each others EN's. Some folk say that they have a better marriage after the affair -but this is not a rule.

I hope that your wife escapes from the fog and repents for the damage that she has caused to the household.

Sterkte (South African expression which means -Have strength)
Posted By: jrnyman Re: Where do I go from here - 11/01/09 10:27 PM
Floridapad-

I read your post with great interest because I am in a similar situation as you (see my post here called "Coasting along...What do I do now?").

I wish I could offer you help, but I need just as much help as you do. My wife's EA "I think" is over - but she has still filed for divorce and we have retained attorneys.

My goal is the same as yours - to do whatever it takes, within reason and without losing my self respect, to save my marriage. I have three small children (all 8 and under) who do not deserve what their mother has in store for them. That is, to force their father out of their house, and have a part-time mom and a part-time dad (sharing of child custody).

My wife thinks that the grass is greener out there. She thinks there is no hope for us, there is no hope for her happiness with me, and our kids will be fine after a divorce. In reality, she is giving up just when a new beginning is around the corner and a new beginning for our marriage can occur.

It sounds like your wife is feeling the same way. I hope your situation doesn't get as far as mine (filing for divorce). I guess I can offer one piece of advice, and that is to continue doing what you are doing - be the best person and husband and father you can be. As hard as this is to hear (because I've heard it myself), if things turn out not as you had hoped, at least you will come out the better person.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I appreciate your posts because I really connected with your story, and I pray I will someday read about some good things happening between you and your wife.

Good luck...
Posted By: Floridapad Re: Where do I go from here - 11/02/09 12:18 AM
Whoa I just got real angry. My wife and I had a conversation today about lying and she said she just wants to get past her feelings for this man and she intends to focus 1000% on me. She needs to work through them alone and she is afraid talking about the A right now would not be productive in light of our emotions. That is the FIRST time she mentioned anything about focusing on me and the marriage. I should have been happy. Why am I angry and irritated. Perhaps I've been fighting for this marriage so long. Is this a normal feeling right after your WAW says she wants to focus on me after she gets past this guy?

Imagine- Thank you for the clarification on the 6 month thing.

Jrnyman - My wife and I have seperated. I told her if she wants a divorce, lets divorce. I stopped fighting her and made the changes I needed to make for myself. I was not fighting anything with her. I think it kept her from running so far so fast. She hasn't mentioned divorce since we seperated. She wanted space and I gave it to her. I told her I needed to detach and please don't call me text me etc, because she was cake eating. Once I got myself back I started opening up to her. In all of this time I NEVER talked about us but we did talk about the affair a bit.

Posted By: imanotherone Re: Where do I go from here - 11/02/09 02:23 PM
FloridaPad, you need to click the notify button at the bottom of your post and ask the moderators to merge this thread to your old one. There is no reason to create a separate thread for each new thought or question. If you want them to change the title of your thread to reflect new news, just send mod alert to request that. Many newbies make the mistake of starting a half-dozen threads with different ideas. Keeping it all in one place makes it easier to get good advice.
Posted By: imagine Re: Where do I go from here - 11/02/09 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by Floridapad
I should have been happy. Why am I angry and irritated. Perhaps I've been fighting for this marriage so long. Is this a normal feeling right after your WAW says she wants to focus on me after she gets past this guy?

You are right - you should have been happy.
Listen when she talks. Do not punish her for being honest.

Your irritation: Possibly your taker is kicking in and demanding progress. I would like to know as well. It does not sound normal. Post if you can figure it out!
Posted By: catperson Re: Where do I go from here - 11/02/09 08:53 PM
Maybe it's because she said she wants to work through it alone. If my W said that, my first thought would be she's lying, and covering her actions so you wouldn't be breathing on her neck.

My second thought would be that saying 'talking about the A would not be productive' is her GASLIGHTING you so that she doesn't have to deal with any consequences.

And he!! yeah, I'd be unhappy about that.

Until she is repentent, remorseful, and asking YOU how she can make it up to YOU, no matter how much talking, counseling, whatever is involved, she's trying to get away with something.

And if you don't hold her feet to the fire, she WILL have another affair.

btw, do you have a GPS phone in her car or other way to see where she goes? If not, do NOT let her drive.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: Where do I go from here - 11/09/09 04:36 PM
OK I have written a Plan A letter with the help of Jennifer Harley. It goes over the path to reconciliation and restoring love. It talks about a happy future together and how to get there. My intention was to give it to her and then give her tons of space.

My question is when do I give it to her. She is SO DEEP in affair fog right now she is grieving HEAVILY. Very depressed. I don't think she wants to leave fantasy land in her mind and heart yet and this letter two weeks after her NC with OM may have little or no affect. Should I wait a few more weeks.

What actions can I take to wake her up from the affair fog, without pissing her off.

I do have access to all her e-mail accounts without her knowledge. (We are seperated). My thought was to give it some time before I bring up the A again because I have been doing it every single time I see her. She has mentioend to a freind that part of her fear to coming back to the marriage is that she will have to hear about it for the rest of her life.

Posted By: TheRoad Re: Where do I go from here - 11/09/09 05:29 PM
I never heard of plan A letter's, only know of plan B letter's.

JH should of told you when to give it to her. I would think that if she had you write the letter it should now be the time to send it.
Posted By: catperson Re: Where do I go from here - 11/09/09 07:54 PM
What are you talking about? Are you going into Plan B? That means you will have NO ACCESS to her and vice versa. Is that what you are planning? If she is in NC, why are you not talking about your requirements for reconciliation?
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Where do I go from here - 11/09/09 07:59 PM
FP,

Jennifer may offer you guidance on the timing of giving her this letter. YOu asked me earlier
Quote
I do have a question!!!!!! are there any other things I should definatively hear from her in order for me to take her back should she decide.


You need to decide what YOU need to believe that it is the right time to take her back. There is not set thing. The only absolute is that OM must be out of the picture and completely out of contact with your W.

As for the timing of the letter, I say that "timing" things in this mess is very hard to do. If you have the letter written, and it expresses what you what to see and what you feel, give it to her. I would suggest that you not expect anything in the way of response. My view is that this letter is planting a seed which will have to germinate and grow before you see anything. So send her the letter with no expectations of a response, certainly not a positive response.

Those are my thoughts.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Floridapad Re: Where do I go from here - 11/09/09 08:02 PM
I am SO confused as what to do but this is what I AM going to do today.

She is in heavy withdrawal as NC from OM just happened 2 and half weeks ago. I drafted a "path to restoring love" letter outlinging the caring protection, time together etc etc. She is obviously uncertain as to whether or not she wants the marriage but rest assured if she could fall back in love with me tomorrow she would say let's do it. That's not going to happen.

I am going to give her the letter tonight and ask her what is the best case scenario. For us to fall in love? for our children to live in a two parent household? etc. etc. I assume she will say yes. I will give her the letter and say here's the path. People do it all time. I am then going to do the 180's and give her space. I am not NCing her. JH said to do the letter now, but I'm not sure how much contact I should have with her after the letter. We are seperated but should I do the holidays together, should I let her see what it is like in a divorced family, should I invite her out to dinner with the kids once in a blue moon. Not sure how much contact I should initiate vs her. I will say this. Writing this letter was the last bit of giver I had at this point. I need a bit of a break from giving and detach a bit. I feel myself getting a bit angry sometimes.

Please HELP!!!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Where do I go from here - 11/09/09 08:17 PM
FP, do what JL said and give her the letter. DON'T DO the 180, the Harley's don't advocate that at all. Instead, look for opportunities to be with her without being pushy and obnoxious. As she withdraws, you want to be there as someone she can DRAW TO.

Spending the holidays together would be awesome. I am so glad you are counseling with Jennifer.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: Where do I go from here - 11/09/09 09:05 PM
Thanks for the advice. I am so impatient because I felt I have been giving but I definately been love busting her with the affair talk. She exposed alot of things about the affair and I should probably shut up for now. She is in a lot of pain and hates it when I bring up the affair. I don't think she is ready to leave fantasy land in her mind.

I saw a book on her table when I went over to the house the other day called "a Summer Affair". The feelings she had were INTENSE like no others. If this is her interpretation of love and what she needs at the core of her relationships (which she feels she did not have with me) then how do I get past that??

Wow affairs can be powerful stuff.
Posted By: catperson Re: Where do I go from here - 11/09/09 11:20 PM
Withdrawal will do that.

In the meantime, YOU can create great, intense feelings with her, too. You just have to work at it. Find new things to do whenever you are together - very powerful, emotionally, to do new things together.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Where do I go from here - 11/10/09 01:30 AM
FP,

Affairs are powerful stuff alright. Just remember the love you promised and she promised you when you married was not "feelings" of love, but the act of love. No one can promise to feel in love with their spouse all of the time, but they can sure promise to act in a loving manner toward their spouse because actions can be controlled.

Love is really not feelings, that is more accurately described as LUST. Or just plain physical attraction. Love is an action.

Doesn't sound as romantic, but it is much longer lasting and powerful.

Please think about that. Also consider this. You have strong feelings for a person. You know you have messed up big time in your life. You know you have deeply hurt someone, perhaps destroyed a family and you USED to have honor, morals, and integrity. How do you face that? How do you deal with your enormous failure to those around you?

THese things take awhile to sort out and you really cannot help her with this. She has to face herself and decide what kind of person she is, has become, and will be in the future. Sounds simple but trust me this is not easy. There is a huge difference between simple and easy and you my man are about to find this out big time.

So hang in there, let her address her issues, she knows she has messed up big time, and you discussing the affair right now sounds to her as if you are telling her "Dear you messed up big time." And she is probably thinking "Duh, I know that, but what do I do now?" Not easy stuff to handle. Facing ones own failures is very difficult, but with time it can happen and does happen.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Floridapad Re: Where do I go from here - 11/10/09 12:33 PM
CP and JL

Thank you for the support. It came at the right time. I have so much compassion for my W right now despite everything she did. I sent her the letter last night. I do not expect a reply for quite sometime if at all, which is OK. I just wanted to plant the seed.

Thanks again.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/10/09 06:49 PM
I really need help with this e-mail. My wife responded to the letter I sent last night. She is in a horrible state. She responded as follows:

"Hey. I read your email last night�..

I think what I really need right now is to get away from everything for a little while. I am thinking of taking a leave from school and go away, maybe to see my sister. You know this is not me, I don�t run away from things, but I think I need a little distance to see things more clearly. I know this is not a good time for you, but I need your help with the kids. I am going to talk to my parents tonight and ask them to help too.

I am having a really hard time keeping myself together at work, and at home. I think this will be best for everyone at this point.

I am sorry. "

Ugh.. I know what your thinking. Her sister lives in Italy so no OM in the picture
Posted By: imanotherone Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/10/09 06:53 PM
You need to translate the letter. The veterans here will do it for you line-by-line.
I can tell you the words I recognize: "to get away from everything for a little while," translates DIRECTLY to "can you leave me alone long enough so I can let my affair flourish?"
And here's another: "I am sorry." means "I'm NOT sorry."
HTH
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/10/09 08:33 PM
I spoke to the wife. She confirmed that my letter was the needle in the haystack for her breakdown today. She called me crying and saying she had to get away from the school (where the OM is) for a few weeks so she could think clearly. She started antidepressant meds. She said she is breaking down at home and at school. She is going to go to Italy for a few weeks to be with her sister. She doesn't want to leave the job permanenetly though. She is in living Hell.


Question? Is this a true break down/bottom? How do I deal with this. I told her take as much time as she needs and I will take care of the kids. She stated she can't affford to take off more than a few weeks. (We are seperated). What next???
Posted By: reading Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/10/09 08:38 PM
Frankly, I think this is an example of where you should offer to drop everything and go away somewhere with her.

To tell her you would go to the moon with her if need be.

To go with her sister to Italy sounds less than optimal for the situation.

You can not make her do things a certain way but you can make offers and state your committment to her.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/10/09 08:50 PM
Her sister actually lives in Italy so it would be a nice visit for her. But I like you idea. In the letter I mentioned something about wanting to see her on the Ferris Wheel again in Paris. (It was our honeymoon. Maybe I can make the tongue in cheeck suggestion to fly out and take her to Paris for a few days while she is out there. I know the answer and realistically I couldn't do it but at least it might plant a seed.
Posted By: Zelmo Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/11/09 12:03 AM
Sounds fair to me: have an affair/go on a vacation to Italy. Yeah, I like that. In fact, I want to go to Ireland to play golf. Maybe I should bang my secretary so my wife will give me some time off.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/11/09 07:44 AM
FP,

My suggestion would be to let her go to Italy, perhaps her sister can talk some sense into her. You take the kids and be the best Dad you can be. This will NOT hurt your situation AND it just might show W what she is about to lose.

Be cool, be a great Dad, and see what happens.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/11/09 12:54 PM
Spoke to her again last night. She was still in tears. For the first time ever she entertained the notion of leaving the school (where the OM works) forever. She LOVES her job and has never even broached the idea of leaving.

She said if she comes back from her short "leave of abscence" and can still not deal, she will leave. The problem is she needs a job which is tough for a teacher to find. She said she may go back to accounting, which she hates.

I think this is total breakdown. That letter I sent (thank you J Harley for the help) was the straw that broke the camels back. I needed to see this. This is what I was hoping for. Seeing her in such devastation is hard but I know she needed this to hopefully move forward.

She still hasn't committed to the M yet but perhaps this time away to stay with her sister will help her. Her sister and family want us to reconcile. They know that will be the best thing for their daughter/sister in the long run.

Posted By: catperson Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/11/09 01:12 PM
Huh? A teaching job is hard to find? Where do you live?

Maybe you BOTH should move to one of the hundreds of other places where they're having a hard time finding teachers.

In fact, that would be one of the best ideas if you two reconcile - a clean start. A lot of reconciled couples here move afterward, to get away from all the drama.
Posted By: reading Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/11/09 04:00 PM
Teaching jobs are not that hard to find.

I know. I am a teacher. They are a dime a dozen. As long as a teacher is open to various locations (districts, counties) and open to LOOOKING for one, there is always a BETTER paying one around the corner.

Teachers who claim that they are not to be found are often newbies (who have no reputation yet and have to vie for jobs with well seasoned vets who want the job) or someone who is set on a particular district and not willing to go with a job in another.
Posted By: Zelmo Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/11/09 04:35 PM
If she was in tears, I'd throw in a Carribean Cruise, as well. I mean, what the heck, this poor woman has been put through the wringer.
As the BH, you, on the other hand, have had a walk in the park. Maybe you could take on an extra job to continue to finance occassional vacations for her so she could take breaks and repeatedly find herself.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/12/09 02:02 PM
Zelmo

I really don't get the point of your posts. I understand that she is the cause of all of this and is running. I realize I have been hurt severely, I still get angry. What is the true constructive point to your post. I truly want to understand...
Posted By: imagine Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/12/09 02:57 PM
What happened to her 1000% commitment to the marriage?

Was there something that changed the deal?
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/12/09 06:08 PM
She is a teacher at a private school. Teaching jobs are plentiful but in very tough districts ( we're in Florida). All the mid teir and above districts are very tight.

Imagine - She never said explicitly she was going to committ to the "marriage". She said she needs to get past her feelings and confusion of the affair so she can "focus" 1000% on me. I think in her mind and certainly in mine there is a bit of a difference.
Posted By: Zelmo Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/12/09 11:21 PM
My point is that you seem to feel like she should be rewarded and handled with kid gloves after eviscerating you. Your treatment lessnes the conseuqences, thus diluting any deterrent effect. It sets the sstage for her repeating this and. clearly impairs her ability to see the extent of the damage she has done.
It sickens me to see how someone that does this now gets an all expense paid trip to Italy, while you man the fort and suffer alone. If anyone should be going on a vacation, it's you. If anyone should be contemplating his navel. it's you.
I mean she got you to subsidize her affair all this time by way of finacial support etc. WTF, now she is heading off for a tour of the Renaisance painters works.
Aren't you just a bit pissed off about the injustice of all this?

I must have missed the parts of the MB plans where Harely advocates rewarding cheating with vacations. I think one can go overboard on avoiding LBs and this is an example.
Posted By: catperson Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/12/09 11:53 PM
Quote
Your treatment lessnes the conseuqences, thus diluting any deterrent effect. It sets the sstage for her repeating this and. clearly impairs her ability to see the extent of the damage she has done.
ITA

If a kid steals candy and Dad says shame on you, don't do it again, will the kid steal again? Probably.

If Dad takes kid to store and makes kid apologize to the owner and work enough hours to pay for the candy, will the kid steal again? Probably not.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/13/09 02:28 PM
Ok I get where your coming from. Unfortunately her "breakdown" is affecting her care of the children. If she goes away for a few weeks to get away from work (where the OM is) to defog a bit then I have no problem watching the children. I am not footing the bill for her. She is managing all that on her own. Right now it would probably be better off if I watched the kids anyways.

BTW I spoke to her last night and really laid into her. She hinted at some of the pain she caused me so I let her into my world right after discovery of the affair. I let her see what the world of a BS right after discovery is like. I let it all out and she took every bit of it. Of course she cried and apologized.

She said some things that make me wonder if she defogging. She is starting to see and feel the lies of the OM and said to me that she has lost everything.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/13/09 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
Quote
Your treatment lessnes the conseuqences, thus diluting any deterrent effect. It sets the sstage for her repeating this and. clearly impairs her ability to see the extent of the damage she has done.
ITA

If a kid steals candy and Dad says shame on you, don't do it again, will the kid steal again? Probably.

If Dad takes kid to store and makes kid apologize to the owner and work enough hours to pay for the candy, will the kid steal again? Probably not.
No cat, it's worse than that. Floridapad's situation would be like if the dad said, "shame on you, don't do that again. Next time, ask me, and I'll buy you the candy. Here, let's go back in the store, and I'll buy you some more."
Tough love time, FP.
NO "defogging" time. She defogs when she's with her family, not free to pursue more contact with the OM (even if it's only via email or skype or whatever).
She needs to make some choices BEFORE getting a chance to spend more time on the A.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/13/09 03:29 PM
She has still not made a choice for the marriage yet. Not sure how to do tough love when she has not committed to he marriage or me yet. I sent her the letter a few days ago and told her the path to a restored marriage should start as soon as possible. But these are choices she still needs to make. Forcing a choice in the oment will get the likely result of I'm not ready. OK then what do I do. She is NC with OM because I can verify. She would not run off to Italy if she wanted the affair to continue and be with OM. Doesn't make sense. I ruly think she knows what the right thing to do is but can't quite move herself towards it yet.

Posted By: imanotherone Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/13/09 04:30 PM
Okie Doke.
Try it your way.
Posted By: Zelmo Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/13/09 04:44 PM
I know you must be depleted by this trauma. So, perhaps your attitude is understandable. Try this; envision a buddy coming to you with a similar story: "You now, FP, the wife has been cheating on me for some time now. Poor thing is confused, and has actually shed a few tears over this.
So, the kids and I decided she needs a trip to Italy. I mean, what the heck, she is stressed and needs to figure things out.
We used the same techniique two years ago, when she drained our joint account and the house went into foreclosure. A little trip to good old Spain, that time, seemed to clear her head."
Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/13/09 05:11 PM
I don't really know what Florida can do to stop her from going to Italy to visit her sister. Hide her passport? Lock her up? She is a grown woman and if she wants to travel she probably will.

Personally, I wouldn't be to keen on the idea. I would be the one that wanted to get away and think for a while. I think a trip to New Zeland would be fun.

Posted By: Zelmo Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/13/09 05:17 PM
I think this whole trip thing triggers me. I agree, there is not much he can do to prevent it(but, how does she get out of her obligation to care for the kids, without his agreement?).
My first wife, a serial cheater, used to play this "I need a break " card all the time(still does).
Her "breaks" to "journal and try to sort things out", turned out to involve drinking and prowling for men.
In it s simplest terms, it just makes no sense that the person that brought all this about, not to mention the person that got to have all the fun and excitement, now gets a vaction to contemplate her navel. This is a serious imbalance of power and unjust as hell.
BSs do all types of doormatish things in the aftermath of this trauma. And, invariably, regardless of reonciliation or divorce, I think many regret the doormat behavior more than any other thing they did.
Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/13/09 05:27 PM
I agree that it isn't fair. But again, what can he do? Is he to say I'm not going to watch the kids if you leave? I don't think he can legally do that.

Noting about this is fair.

Your first wife sounds like on cold person. It is probably a good thing that she is an ex.

I don't know what good it will do for Florida to try to force his wife to stay home. Perhaps he could persuade her not to go, and if he feels up to it have at it. You just can't hold someone that wants to flee. It just won't work.

I think his wife is being very selfish right now, but show me a WS that isn't selfish and I'll buy you a coffee.
Posted By: Zelmo Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/13/09 05:32 PM
I agree, there is not much he can do about it. I jast did not want him laboring under the impression that this is anything but a selfish, irresponsible action which shows she has no true remorse or appreciation for the extent of the damage she has done. She sounds like a very self centered person.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/15/09 01:42 PM
OK..I did something you all may not approve of. I took a peak at my W's diary. I know invasion of privacy but I had to know what was going on. Based on her diary she is three weels in and still is deep withdrawal.

She talked about missing the "magical" feelings and how she never had them with me. She mentioned that going back to me would be existence to her. It said she loves me but never had those types of feelings for me.

It was tough reading but it did make me wonder about our marriage in the past. It also made me think like I was option B in her life. I cannot go back into a marriage where my W is always going to miss those magical feelings or exist in a marriage where she never felt she had those feelings for me.

As I said it was a DEEP affair. She wrote how the experience almost seemed spiritual. I know many WW say this but the point is these ARE the feelings she has.

She is NC in reality but in her mind and heart she is not NC. I told her they SHE needs to go NC and not be forced into it because the OM has made the choice to go back to his wife and go NC. She said she is NC (which I verified she is) but she is only that way because of him. SHE needs to be the one to chose to go NC. Perhaps write a letter? I tried to tell her perhaps writing a letter as to why you need to go NC with your mind, there are obviously many reasons, but one of them right now (in her mind) is certainly not about coming back to the marriage.

I have a timeline to Plan A her until MArch April and then I will probably file D papers because I will likely be done by then. When does the true NC clock start ticking. Once NC actually occurrs or once the individual has made the choice to go true NC?
Posted By: catperson Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/15/09 03:02 PM
Did she write a NC letter? Definitely needs to.

Quote
wrote how the experience almost seemed spiritual
That's because it was SNEAKING.

SNEAKING something ALWAYS gives you a thrill, is exciting, makes you feel alive, like you're getting away with something 'normal, boring' people don't. An affair creates chemicals in the brain because of the deceit. It is no different from an addiction - the chemicals.

And everything she says is BECAUSE of those chemicals. She's coming down off a high. Nothing will ever be 'as good' as that high.

Pshaw. YOU are the one with the clear thinking, not her. Just humor it, and let her get farther away from that chemical high, and the fog will clear, and she'll see you standing on the other side - there all along, but she couldn't see you.
Posted By: imagine Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/15/09 05:10 PM
Floridapad,

The diary is exactly what a good marriage should have. The difference is that the diary both good and bad is between each other.

Listen to catperson:-
You must understand that an affair brings about very different feelings to a normal relationship. The meetings are better, the cuddling is better and the sex is absolutely fantastic. Even if it is bad. The senses are hypersensitive. One way to kill that relationship is to let them marry each other.

THIS INFORMATION is for YOU. She will not nor cannot understand it. Await defogging before she can appreciate it. Somehow you must focus on meeting her emotional needs. Tough call. Stay away from her thinking.

I need to remind you again that the WW script is OLD.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/15/09 06:20 PM
She is leaving wed and I have so much anger that she still grieves her lover more thean the pain she has caused so many around her including her children. I want to write her a letter about this to remind her that she hasn't even begun to feel the pain she has caused others. I wrote a nice soft letter a week ago that caused her to go to Italy but I feel she needs to hear about all the pain she caused for the sake of those "magical" hours she spent with him.

Good decision? or should I just stay away from it and let her see that for herself. I feel she will be away from this man (at school) for a few weeks and this might get her thinking more about the pain she caused others rather than her selfish grieving over the last of a scumbag. Please advise!!
Posted By: imagine Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/15/09 06:47 PM
Lets re-evaluate.

You want your marriage? Does a school need these people to teach their children?

If you wish to protect OMW then your wife needs to be outed. I do not think it fair but it would give his family a break, for now.

Speak to the Harley's about this exposure. Her loss of the job would be a consequence of her action. Then exposure for her would be complete.

Posted By: catperson Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/16/09 05:40 AM
Originally Posted by Floridapad
She is leaving wed and I have so much anger that she still grieves her lover more thean the pain she has caused so many around her including her children. I want to write her a letter about this to remind her that she hasn't even begun to feel the pain she has caused others. I wrote a nice soft letter a week ago that caused her to go to Italy but I feel she needs to hear about all the pain she caused for the sake of those "magical" hours she spent with him.

Good decision? or should I just stay away from it and let her see that for herself. I feel she will be away from this man (at school) for a few weeks and this might get her thinking more about the pain she caused others rather than her selfish grieving over the last of a scumbag. Please advise!!
Um...are you nuts?

Is feeling good more important than getting your wife back?
Posted By: Zelmo Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/16/09 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Floridapad
OK..I did something you all may not approve of. I took a peak at my W's diary. I know invasion of privacy but I had to know what was going on. Based on her diary she is three weels in and still is deep withdrawal.

She talked about missing the "magical" feelings and how she never had them with me. She mentioned that going back to me would be existence to her. It said she loves me but never had those types of feelings for me.

It was tough reading but it did make me wonder about our marriage in the past. It also made me think like I was option B in her life. I cannot go back into a marriage where my W is always going to miss those magical feelings or exist in a marriage where she never felt she had those feelings for me.

As I said it was a DEEP affair. She wrote how the experience almost seemed spiritual. I know many WW say this but the point is these ARE the feelings she has.

She is NC in reality but in her mind and heart she is not NC. I told her they SHE needs to go NC and not be forced into it because the OM has made the choice to go back to his wife and go NC. She said she is NC (which I verified she is) but she is only that way because of him. SHE needs to be the one to chose to go NC. Perhaps write a letter? I tried to tell her perhaps writing a letter as to why you need to go NC with your mind, there are obviously many reasons, but one of them right now (in her mind) is certainly not about coming back to the marriage.

I have a timeline to Plan A her until MArch April and then I will probably file D papers because I will likely be done by then. When does the true NC clock start ticking. Once NC actually occurrs or once the individual has made the choice to go true NC?


Your wife sounds like an idiot. I would hope that someday, when she goes back and reads her juvenile writings, she is mortified. Has she always been immature and selfish?
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/16/09 07:16 PM
As always Zelmo thank you for the constructive feedback. I can tell you really want to help a guy out and are all about helping people rebuild there marriage. Thank you. To answer your question though, she has always been an idealist romantic which yes probably makes her a bit unrealistic.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/16/09 07:37 PM
That special "zing" of an affair is intoxicating to some. In fact, some people become serial adulterers, just because they have to constantly seek that rush of adrenaline they get from cheating.
Let's hope your wife someday realizes that building a life is more about the totality of your family, not a couple of heart-thumping moments.
Posted By: catperson Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/16/09 07:44 PM
I think your wife would benefit from some education. But not from you! Family, clergy, whomever, get someone to turn her on to some good reading about what love, commitment, and lifelong relationships are all about. Open her eyes.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/16/09 09:04 PM
I definately agree with you all on her getting some education, unfortunately she is being controlled by her feelings. I did write her a long letter (which I haven't given to her yet)some of it talking about NC and even copying some of the blogs. At the end I also told her this... Not sure how it sounds but it is what I beleive and a boundary I have set up for myself.

As for you and me. I know you are going through a lot, (it has only been 4 weeks of NC), and that is something that is even hard to envision so soon after an affair. But people do get through it and move forward and live happy lives. I do mean and believe everything I wrote in that letter I sent to you the other day. But It is so hard to attain when a person thinks they are going to settle by going back to the �old� marriage and that they can not be happy. I have absolutely no intention of going back to an �old� marriage if I thought it was not going to change and be happier and more fulfilling but it takes two people to make that happen. For some of the women that is the hardest choice because they feel they cannot have those feelings and connection they had with the other man in the affair. Well�. it was an affair. Those �magical� feelings and connection were in an affair, even if they were real and unique, and special. The pain you felt and are feeling now and the pain I felt and your children feel are also unique to us and very real. Many of the women actually said working on their marriage and restoring love with the husband is the key thing that made the pain go away and the feelings of the other man go away and brought back a true sense of happiness and love for their husband.
(WAW) Please don�t think I am manipulating you or trying to �talk� you back. There is NO WAY I will ever go back to the �old� marriage and there is NO WAY I would get back with someone if they thought they were settling for existence as you once said after discovery of the affair. If that�s how you ultimately think then I would be sad because we would part ways for good. If you think that you need those �feelings/connection� you had in an affair to be happy for life or feel that you must have those same feelings/connection from the affair at the beginning of a relationship then I truly do not want to compete with your memories, desires and longing for something you had in an affair. I do feel in marriage or any long term relationship true feelings of true love and a true connection, can be renewed greater than before and held forever. If you chose to move on and search for that intense connection and feeling with another man then I will wish you all the happiness. I truly will. Your happiness is important to the children�s happiness.
I (me myself and I) don�t want to go back to the life of �existence� as you say because I see now that things could be so much better, because I have made the changes inside that I need to make for me. But YOU have to have a little faith and make the choice to start a whole new marriage (if that�s what you chose), be yourself and not simply �think� you are settling, otherwise I do not want to be any part of that reconciliation and I would let go forever. If that is the case I�m sure you will fall in love again and find a life partner that truly loves and cares for you as much as you need. You can be alone, date, move on, fall in love with another man or chose to do whatever you chose to do. But I hope you see that choosing to fall in love with your husband again (you have before) and changing our lifestyle is something that can result in a happy marriage, be very special (icing on the cake) and result in a unified family, happy children, and a happy life. I want to do all the things we are missing out on and I�m sure you do as well but it must start with a choice. A choice to NC ( not just physical but emotional), a choice to change our lifestyle, a choice to truly focus on making our lives happy and have our marriage be truly loving and caring forever. People do it all the time.
Posted By: Zelmo Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/16/09 10:05 PM
I agree with most of the thoughts in your letter. But, it is too wordy and repetetive, IMO. In effect, it sounds like you are trying to sell her on an idea that must come from within her. She has to figure out how naive she is to believe that her feelings for this guy would be sustained after the excitement/thrill wears off.
And, I think making it clear to her that you do not want her to settle for you and that you have no intention of being the booby prize, need not be repeated over again in throughout the letter.
The tone is somewhat importuning, which I believe is a mistake, as it makes you sound weak. And, I would not ever plant the seed in her mind that her discomfort approaches your own in terms of severity. Clearly,it does not.
You could say all this in about two sentences. It would be clear and concise and you would not look as if you are asking for scraps.
JMHO, but BSs that go this route seem to lose even more respect from their WSs.
See, FP, I'm not trying to come down on you , despite the distaste I feel for seeing you act weakly, IMO. I understand that at this point, with this much trauma, many BSs goes this route, the understanding/sympathetic/here go take a vaction deal.
IMO, going this route forever disrupts the balance of power in a relationship. Your WS has witnessed that you will act like a doormat and you are forever lowered in her eyes.
I'm not one of these "women love strong men" advocates. Rather, i think that either gender can only love who he or she respects. And, your course of action is way too understanding/doormatish to generate respect.
You do not have to go ballistic. But, you do need to be willing to take a stand andstop viewing your WW as some poor, confused , little romantic soul. You need to see her for what she is , a woman who wanted sex and love from others and was willing to risk your entire family's health and well being to get what she wanted. Nothng would stand in her way of satisfying those desires. Not you or the kids.
Posted By: catperson Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/16/09 10:11 PM
I thought I said NOT FROM YOU!

Stop trying to do things to make YOURSELF feel good, like educating her in all she did wrong.

This is one time in your life you need to learn to stuff it. Ok?
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/16/09 11:36 PM
Zelmo- thank you for the input. It is truly valued..Now that I get where you are coming from a simple reminder of "stop being a wussy" would most definately be welcome. I will get where your coming from and remember your post. I do get lost in it sometimes with the sh@t I'm in.

Catperson-yes I need to keep my mouth shut and stop educating. I am a learner by nature and sometimes the holier than though teacher part comes out. I have made a lot of changes but that is one I need to work on now. That and getting my set of balls back. This experience has been too humbling.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 01:41 AM
Ok. I have revised the letter. Please let me know your thoughts. It's pretty much where I am at.

Hello.
I hope your trip goes well and you have the break you need. I�m going to get straight to the point of where I'm at. I�m not afraid to let it out.
I am not going to be someone�s second choice. I am not going to be in a situation where my wife of 15 years is settling to go back to a marriage she might think is �existence� as you say. With all I have learned, I have too much to offer to be with someone who feels that way. You can go to Italy and have your break but know that I am not one who comes in second place nor will I accept that. If you feel that way towards me then move on to some one that you don�t feel that way for. I want to be happy and I have learned too much to be with someone who chooses to �exist� with me. I love you and care for you in more ways than you know. You are my wife and the one I made vows to for life, but I am not going to give my love to someone that looks at me as an option.
I hope you find what you are looking for with your trip. I truly do.
Patrick
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 02:32 AM
Ok.. I sent the last letter with some minor tweaks.. She called me about 15 minutes later. I did not feel like talking so I let it ring. Then my daughters phone called about one minute after that. I feel like this is all a game and I know it shouldn't be but with this letter and her response I feel like she needs to be "gamed". Thoughts??
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 04:51 AM
I received a response from the W. I need some real help/support. She is NC for one month. Is this really an alien or someone who knows exactly where they are. This really sucks!


Ok.... I am not really sure where this is coming from, but I am going to try to explain to you where my mind and heart is. I am trying really hard to figure out how I feel about you and our marriage. I had been "existing" as you say for a long time time before this whole thing happened and I am not going to exist again. I WILL NEVER ask you to be my second choice. I WILL NOT even consider the possibility of us getting back together unless I truly believe that I can love you in my heart the way you deserve to be loved, and they way I want to love you. And I am not talking about the kind of love you think I am talking about, the "affair" kind of love with all that comes with it. I am talking about the kind of love that lasts forever.

My heart has been closed to you for a long time now, way before last year, and I need to understand why. I need to feel like it can be opened again. I am not "settling" as you say because I know it would only be a matter of time before it all falls apart again, and I WILL NOT DO THAT TO YOU OR THE CHILDREN.

So if I ever ask you for a second chance, I will be 100% sure that that's what I want and need in my heart and in my mind. I told you this before, I won't go there until I am sure we can be happy forever.

I am not asking you to wait for me to make up my mind. I never have. If you need to move on to be happy right now, then you need to move on. I need to time to search my heart and my soul to find who I am todayand WHY I did some of the things that I did. It may take a long time, I may never even get there. And if I do and you have moved on, then I will have to live with that, knowing that leaving you in the first place was the worst decision of my life.

I know you think me going to Italy is a very selfish thing to do. I know you think I am leaving you with the kids to do all the work. After all, it was my decision to be a single parent, not yours. I am pulling a Monique.....and maybe I am. Maybe it is selfish. But I need to get away to get some peace. Peace from school, peace from you. You have been a on rollercoaster of emotions ever since you told her, one emotion after another, and maybe me not being here will be good for you too. I need space, and I believe this is the only way for me to get it right now.

I am sorry if you are hurting. I don't understand why you wrote what you wrote now, maybe I said something the other night I don't really remember......I am sorry to leave you with everything on top of what you have been going through. I am sure my mom and dad can handle it if you don't want to or if you need to get your peace alone.

I am not going to Italy to find all my answers. I am going to Italy hoping to find the strenght to stand on my own two feet and start to look for the answers where they have always been: inside of me.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 05:16 AM
What do you need help with?

Her letter is pretty self-evident. SHe is still in the fog, she is still rewriting your marriage history. She is having a hard time facing herself and what she has done. She may never be able to really face it in which case this will end up as YOUR FAULT. Yeah, I know it sucks.

She is not sorry you are hurting, she is sorry that it makes her look bad. She is sorry she was caught. She is sorry she doesn't have a better plan to make herself happy. You will notice that this letter is really all about her.

I say read the letter again, put it away, and let her go to Italy. It may help, but running from ones problems often doesn't do anything because the problems follow.

Be the best father you can be to your kids. Be the best man you can be and look inward to see things you can learn and improve on based on your own evaluation and goals.

Since she has made it all about her, there is little you can do to help.

That is my take on this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: TheRoad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 12:42 PM
You need to be able to read through the lines.

Your WW is going away for one reason. Put distance between you and her so she can bang the OM.

I think your letter was weak. It just handed WW an excuse to justify her affair again.

You should of sent a plan B letter just stating that you would not reconsider recovery until NC with the OM, MC, IC, and all contact with you must now go through a 3rd party.

Then block WW email, phone no, etc....
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 02:10 PM
The Road - She is going to Italy to be with her sister. There is no OM in Italy. Her sister would not allow it as she disagrees with the whole thing. I truly beleive she is putting distance from the WHOLE situation, me the OM, the wreck she has caused. Evrything. She is running. Now having said that she may still be with the OM in her heart after four weeks of NC. I have verified that through her e-mails which I have access to and through her diary which, yes, I have read. It's her images of the fantasy that she has not gone NC with. She is still greiving the loss of the fantasy and the OM. Thats it. Not the loss of family or me (she has already emotinally detached). She did say in her diary that she loves me but fears that she will never be happy and simply exist. Yes I know it's affair fog, but it is still real right now. I still feel I need to plan A her though for several more months. Avoid love busters, avoid confrontation (which we have had plenty of) and try to focus on the EN's. If I verify that NC has been broken (through her e-mail account, diary, phone records (all of which she does not know I have access to) then I will immediately proceed to Plan B.

Not sure if this is the right thing to do. I feel like I need to talk with her about where the relationship went wrong and what could have been done to make it better. Ask her what she thinks could be done to improve things. Unfortunately though, I think she couldn't remotely begin to answer that because she is still in a fog. She is a very intelligent woman (magnum cum Laude) but emotionaly she is retarded. She is a feeler by nature. I don't know what to do with all that.
Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 03:09 PM
Stop the relationship talk. It will do you no good at all.

Stop pursing her. Leave her alone. She isn't ready to discuss what went wrong with the marriage. She just wants to run. Let her.

Don�t respond to her phone calls or emails right away. Always end conversations first. Tell her you got something to do and end the call almost immediately.

Search for the 180 list and do what it says.

If you keep this up she will see you as a "friend" upon whom she can dump her emotional garbage. She will not see you as a husband. She is blaming you for her affair and that has to stop.

Posted By: LostBoy68 Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 03:35 PM
FP:

I know this is an emotional time right now, but I think you really need to step out of the 'details' that you are trying to rationalize (ie going to Italy, it's ok bc staying w/sister), and assess the whole situation.

From the details you posted, your WW seems to run away from all of her problems...like having an A, taking a leave of absence from work, running off to Italy... And it looks from the outside as if you have become so accustomed to smoothing over your WW's problems throughout the M, that you are continuing that role now...even after she has destroyed your M and family.

I am very familiar with that marital dynamic, as that is how my M was, and after Dday, I could not 'see' the pattern either. Does your WW consistently run away from all of her problems as it seems to me? If so, you are CONTINUING TO ENABLE her behavior pattern by doing nothing while she runs away to Italy after all the destruction she has caused. When I was going through the worst of it, some MB posters sent links to some great articles explaing the "Fight or Flight" pshychology from a guy named Al Turtle (if anyone has links, please post). Do you really want to remain married at all costs to someone who chooses Run Away from their problems...especially the ones created by themselves? In Harley's terms, those types of spouses are not "Buyers." They are at best "Renters," or worse yet "Freeloders."

I understand that you cannot control her, or physically keep her from going to Italy, but you are certainly not without options. I had a similar chance as you do, to take a very advantageous legal position when my WW left the family for 'time to think." At the time, an atty friend of mine counseled me to file for divorce and abandonment right away, but I didn't want to upset the apple cart. Now, 2.5 years into costly and draining divorce/custody proceedings, I regret not having the courage to act swiftly and decisively by following through on his advice. By filing, you are not setting everything in stone because if your WW does do a complete turnaround, you can always dismiss the filing.

From reading your WW's email response to you last night, you already can see that she is not thinking about you or your children...she is thinking only of herself. In fact, she even states that she knows she is being completely selfish.

Quote
I know you think me going to Italy is a very selfish thing to do. I know you think I am leaving you with the kids to do all the work. After all, it was my decision to be a single parent, not yours. I am pulling a Monique.....and maybe I am. Maybe it is selfish. But I need to get away to get some peace. Peace from school, peace from you. You have been a on rollercoaster of emotions ever since you told her, one emotion after another, and maybe me not being here will be good for you too. I need space, and I believe this is the only way for me to get it right now.

I am sorry if you are hurting. I don't understand why you wrote what you wrote now, maybe I said something the other night I don't really remember......I am sorry to leave you with everything on top of what you have been going through.

You can go along to get along, and stand by why your WW runs off to get space and time to think, but my bet would be that even if she does come to the conclusion that SHE is better off staying in the M, that she will not change her future behavior from a RENTER/FREELOADER to a BUYER. Renters and Freeloaders will never change their behavior patterns without motivation...and sometimes that motivation needs to be in the form of consequences.

I think that you should respond to her email last night, and state that you and the children need her to be in the home...to get it on record that you do not agree with her trip to Italy. Then you can think about what I have said, so that you have options, and possibly consult with an atty.

If I am completely off-base with regards to your WW, then I apologize, but I wouldn't want you to make the same mistake that I made, and waste an opportunity change the dynamic and stop shielding your WW from the consequences of her actions.

LoBoy
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 04:46 PM
Lostboy,

I hear what you are saying. She is generally not a runner by nature but she does have trouble understanding that happiness comes from with in and not because of a feeling she feels she needs to have that comes from somewhere, someone or something else. I do plan on giving her a few mnths of Plan A and then drop the D papers if I don't see progress. She was once the most selfless person I knew. She is happy when she can make others happy. But now she is someone I and many people do not know. If this is who she is now and forever (which I am not fully convinced) then I would definately part ways.
Posted By: Floridapad Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 04:58 PM
OK...I just saw on my wifes phone records a call she made to a phsychology/counseling center. I looked at the site and they said they are solutions based not talk based. Whatever. This is an odd step for her as she hates counselors and went for a little while to someone but stopped. Everyone told her to get a new counselor because all she did was listen and not offer real suggestions and solutions. People, not me, told her to go to someone different and listen and act. I know this is absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things but it is unusual for her.
Posted By: catperson Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 05:02 PM
Sounds promising. I would think such a place would be more practical and pragmatic; hopefully they will set her straight on what dreams are and what real life is.
Posted By: Zelmo Re: EXPOSURE IS COMPLETE - 11/17/09 05:53 PM
You are getting some good advice and insight from Lost and JL, IMO.
In essence, I think what they are saying is tht your wife is making it clear she still is thinking almost exclusively of herself, and there is not much you can do about it, other than to protect yourself and rain as many legitimate consequences down on her as possible. Freeze the joint accounts, if you have them. No access to $$ as she is continuing her affair by contacting this guy. I would not even consider allowing her access to any family funds to bankroll her vacation.
You mentioned she is bright. My first wife was, as well.Had the big time academic pedigree etc.
Like your wife, she was very adept at attaching to nice little nebulous concepts, new agish stuff, without real substance. Things like "needing space", "sorting things out" etc. These are concepts that, to a more street smart person, like me, spell bullcrap. This "fog" or whatever it is , seems to cause otherwise intelligent people to say things and do things that would, ordinarily , mortify them(hopefully), things liie "soulmate" or "finding myself". Just the usual gibberish we see in places like Taos or these aging hippy enclaves.
In any case, I think you really, really need to see a lawyer and use her running to your advantage, as another poster suggesed.
Whatever you can do to impose consequences, work, family, kids exposure, do it. Cutt off the financing.
I just watched a movie last night, " A Serious Man". It's a Coen brothers deal, and this guy does everything wrong. He winds up in a motel, no kids, and he is going about facilitating his wife's cheating by arranging a "GEt" , a jewish annulment, I guess. It is pathetic. Watch it and do the exact opposite of this guy.
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