Marriage Builders
Posted By: rprynne Disappointed - 11/10/09 09:09 PM
Since, I don't really have anyone else to "talk" to about this, just thought I'd post here.

I thought recovery was going along pretty well. Was trying to drop my "shields" so to speak, but last night, caught her on the phone with OM. Using a cell phone she had kept hidden. She says it was a mistake and wants to keep trying.

Very down today.
Posted By: hope3343 Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
I thought recovery was going along pretty well. Was trying to drop my "shields" so to speak, but last night, caught her on the phone with OM. Using a cell phone she had kept hidden. She says it was a mistake and wants to keep trying.

Very down today.

A mistake might be dialing the OP in a moment of waywardness. To have a hidden cell phone is very well calculated. She is still a wayward but has learned how to be more furtive. I am sorry.
Posted By: stillhere8126 Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:14 PM
Jeez, I am so sorry. I dont know what advice to offer you since i am no in R. But I just wanted you to know my prayers are with you, that is a tough one.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:15 PM
well said Hope -- very calculating. It was not a "mistake".
It was planned. And likely not the first or only contact.

Posted By: faithful follower Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:18 PM
((rprynne) My H took his A waaaaaaaaay under ground and I suffered through multiple FR's. You have no children, which does not mean your M is not of value but are you certain you want to continue R with her?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:21 PM
Dammitall.
I'm so sorry.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:23 PM
rprynne,

This may be the saddest thing I have read in a while. I'm so sorry, man.

Might it be time for a line in the sand?

A hidden cell phone at this stage?

This truly sucks...

Mark

Posted By: rprynne Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:40 PM
Thanks everyone.

On the cellphone, I don't know if it matters or not, but about 3-4 months ago she started doing some consulting work for the old company she used to work at. They gave her the blackberry to use while doing the consulting job. She said she didn't want to tell me about it because she knew I would want access to the call logs, and she was too embarrassed to ask her employer for that. Supposedly OM called the company she is consulting for and they gave him the number.

I don't know if that helps, hurts, is the truth or if it really matters.
Posted By: krusht Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:50 PM
So very sorry this happened my brother!!

The gift that keeps on giving. banghead banghead banghead

Did she give you the Blackberry?

How many blows to the head and body can you take?

Keep posting, to hopefully sort it out.

kirk
Posted By: faithful follower Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:52 PM
It is a HUGE redflag that she didn't tell you about the Blackberry. She could have shown you the call logs on the phone itself. Blackberry's carry quite a bit of history on them. IMHO she is gaslighting you.
Posted By: catperson Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:54 PM
I'm so sorry. Is she willing to do something about it?
Posted By: Dude007 Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
I'm so sorry. Is she willing to do something about it?

Start planning you exist strategy NOW!!! DUDE
Posted By: rprynne Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by krusht
So very sorry this happened my brother!!

The gift that keeps on giving. banghead banghead banghead

Did she give you the Blackberry?

How many blows to the head and body can you take?

Keep posting, to hopefully sort it out.

kirk

She destroyed the Blackberry.

Gonna try to figure out what to do next.

Just so darn frustrating.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 10:00 PM
I'm so sorry Rprynne.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by faithful follower
It is a HUGE redflag that she didn't tell you about the Blackberry. She could have shown you the call logs on the phone itself. Blackberry's carry quite a bit of history on them. IMHO she is gaslighting you.

Yes, I know. But, apparently because I've been such an irrational maniac overall this (sarcasm there), their was no way to work out a plan to handle an extra phone. I would have just gone into one of my blind irrational rages (more sarcasm).
Posted By: rprynne Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
I'm so sorry. Is she willing to do something about it?

I suppose.
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 10:15 PM
I am so sorry for you. I have been there. But man, after 4 years you have to ask yourself if you want to keep going through this. I had to make that decision once and decided that I didn't. OW was always going to be in my marriage somewhere if I didn't take a hard line.

Sorry, but I don't buy the explanation of the Blackberry.

((((rprynne)))))
Posted By: hope3343 Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
On the cellphone, I don't know if it matters or not, (It does matter - absolutely) but about 3-4 months ago she started doing some consulting work for the old company she used to work at. They gave her the blackberry to use while doing the consulting job. She said she didn't want to tell me about it because she knew I would want access to the call logs, and she was too embarrassed to ask her employer for that.
Do you understand how this is typical wayward fog babble --
Did she even give you the option of being honest
When XH had business phone I registered it on line and got all of his phone logs...she could have done the same
She was not embarrassed she was planning "what if" and this gave her the opportunity.
I bet if you register her blackberry you will see plenty more activity with OM


Supposedly OM called the company she is consulting for and they gave him the number.
How would he have known she was consulting unless SHE told him.
I think SHE gave him the #
If she was being transparent that would have been the time to fess up that OM was trying to contact her.
She is still trying to live the fantasy and blame you.


I don't know if that helps, hurts, is the truth or if it really matters.
Posted By: catperson Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
Originally Posted by catperson
I'm so sorry. Is she willing to do something about it?

I suppose.
Destroying a phone...she can just tell her boss it broke, and get a new one, and start all over...

I mean to gain trust.

Is she ready for a polygraph?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 11:18 PM
rp

"She destroyed the Blackberry."

Another lie WW has told you. Black berries are not cheap.

WW takes company issued BB and destroyed it. Very unlikely.

Posted By: not2fun Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 11:19 PM
Ry,


Dagnabbitt!!!!!!

I am truly sorry. My heart aches for you......

What do YOU want to do?? You've suffered plenty, but either way we have your back......

(((((Ry)))))

not2fun
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 11:21 PM
rp

"They gave her the blackberry to use while doing the consulting job."

You speak of these consulting job being over.

Why would this Co. let her keep a BB and keep paying for to have free cell phone for her continued use?
Posted By: Zelmo Re: Dissapointed - 11/10/09 11:58 PM
***edit***
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Dissapointed - 11/11/09 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by rprynne
Originally Posted by krusht
So very sorry this happened my brother!!

The gift that keeps on giving. banghead banghead banghead

Did she give you the Blackberry?

How many blows to the head and body can you take?

Keep posting, to hopefully sort it out.

kirk

She destroyed the Blackberry.

Gonna try to figure out what to do next.

Just so darn frustrating.

She destroyed the Blackberry that was given to her by her employer? How's she going to tell them about it? Kind of weird redflag I mean yeah, she could lie to them and tell them it was stolen, I suppose. If she's telling the truth about the origins of the phone, that is.
I'd be doing some major league snooping.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Dissapointed - 11/11/09 01:03 AM
I have a Blackberry.

It has a call log.

It also logs all emails in/out. Very easy to check.
Posted By: claygal Re: Dissapointed - 11/11/09 01:05 AM
OurHouse - Is there a way to check emails etc.. on blackberry without having password? WH has one. But changed all the passwords
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Dissapointed - 11/11/09 01:21 AM
I don't know how to get past the password--I don't have mine password protected. I think there is some software such as flexispy that you can load onto the phone--hopefully some others will chime in, or you can look on the snooping 101 thread.

Do you know any of his other passwords? You can try them on the Bberry. My H recycles about 2-3 PWs.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Dissapointed - 11/11/09 01:24 AM
Sorry for the T/J rprynne--

I just thought of something else, CG. Before the board meltdown, there was a thread about hacking into Bberries. Maybe you can start a new one--that thread probably disappeared into the void. Someone posted that you can basically wipe the Bberry clean by trying a PW 10 times in a row. Then you can re-set it. So if you did that, you could then read all the emails, logs, etc. Of course, when your H sees that his PW won't work, he'll input a new one but at least you'll have seen what's there at the moment.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Dissapointed - 11/11/09 02:09 AM
rprynne...

You have long been one of my favorites around here - you probably already know that, but I still wanted to say it! smile Your posts are so well thought out - intelligent - logical - you seem very kind, and remind me of Mr. W in many ways...The one place that you do seem to lack logic though is in your own situation - understandable of course...You know that I am one of the staunchest supporters of recovering a marriage here, but I really, really, really think it's time for you to "cut bait", buddy...I fear that you will lose the essence of who you are pretty soon if not - the last thing I want to see is for you to become terminally bitter and totally cynical - staying in this kind of abusive situation for such a long time would do that to anyone I believe...PLEASE help yourself...If ever there was a case for Plan B, (likely a permanent one) it is yours...I am begging you...this torture has gone on long enough...

And lastly, I am very, very sorry...(((((rprynne)))))

Mrs. W
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Dissapointed - 11/11/09 03:33 AM
Originally Posted by rprynne
I don't know if that helps, hurts, is the truth or if it really matters.

I think you're being scammed, and worse, you're allowing yourself to be scammed.

If your (F?)WW was REALLY interested in recovering with you, she'd have done something like offered to get hold of ALL the call logs for that BB for you to go through, to make up for her "weak moment". As far as I can tell, she's only interested in protecting herself, hence her destruction of the BB.

IMO the time you spend with someone as deeply flawed as your WW is time wasted; time you could have spent with someone else who actually knows how to be open and honest, and how to respect and love their partner. And the thing is, you don't get those years back. There's no reset button in life.
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Dissapointed - 11/11/09 03:51 AM
And rprynne, I hope it is not lost on you now WHY she kept insisting on going to visit her sister who just so happens to live in the same place as OM...skeptical

The chief reason that POJA has never made sense to you is that MT has no interest in YOUR happiness...I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I want you to open your eyes, friend...

Mrs. W
Posted By: Mr_Recon6mo Re: Dissapointed - 11/11/09 08:22 AM
rprynne, i'm so sorry.

Even dr Harley says in article "Overcoming resentment (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html)"

"With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree. "
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Disappointed - 11/11/09 10:53 AM
I'm so sorry rp. hug

I agree with everything Mrs W has said. I love reading your posts here. They're always so well written and helpful.

You deserve so much better than this.

I have to admit that I was uneasy about your situation when you were posting on the "sacrifice" thread (I think it was that thread) about your WW wanting to do visiting alone to OM's town, her reluctance to see that this would hurt you and your struggle to POJA this issue.

How is your W handling this now?

Again, I am so very sorry. hug
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/11/09 07:43 PM
All - Thanks for your support. I don't disagree with much of what has been posted. I'll comment on the blackberry in general and then respond to a few questions where maybe folks can help.

As a general caveat, I'll say that when I mention my WW says this or that, do not assume that means I believe it. It's just what she says.

On the Blackberry, I realize there's a bunch of her story that is not legit. Worst case, she's had it all the way since Feb '08, which was the last time her cell phone had a call to OM on it. She destroyed it in front of me, so I know it was destroyed. And yes, she may go get another one. I realize she most likely destroyed it because the call logs were going to show much more contact with OM, than she confessed to. The consulting job will be over on 11/19. And she did also get a computer from the company she is consulting with, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility that they supplied a blackberry at that time, which was about 3 months ago.

Originally Posted by hope3343
How would he have known she was consulting unless SHE told him.
I think SHE gave him the #
If she was being transparent that would have been the time to fess up that OM was trying to contact her.
She is still trying to live the fantasy and blame you.

If what my WW says is true, this is OM's pattern. Every 2-4 months, he calls with something, he thinks she needs to know. She says last time it was because a mutual friend was sick. Anyway, he calls, and then she starts up again. My WW consistently denies she has feelings for OM, but basically doesn't want to be "mean" to him.

I agree, the time to fess up would have been when OM called (or received the phone), but my WW just can't seem to get this. 25+ years of this approach seems to be a hard habit to break.

Originally Posted by not2fun
What do YOU want to do?? You've suffered plenty, but either way we have your back......

I don't know yet, but I appreciate the support.

Originally Posted by TheRoad
Why would this Co. let her keep a BB and keep paying for to have free cell phone for her continued use?

As said above, the consulting job is not done yet.

Originally Posted by MrsWondering
PLEASE help yourself...If ever there was a case for Plan B, (likely a permanent one) it is yours...I am begging you...this torture has gone on long enough...

Thanks MrsW. I'm not sure what I will do. I wish folks could believe me when I say I do see my situation logically. But I can't decide whether I am being scammed (as MiM opined) or am married to a woman who just has major issues. This may not matter to some, but I feel that if I am being scammed, then it is an easy decision to move on. But if it is that my WW just has major issues, then I feel a certain moral obligation to honor my "better or worse" part of my vows and try to work through this.

Originally Posted by MrsWondering
And rprynne, I hope it is not lost on you now WHY she kept insisting on going to visit her sister who just so happens to live in the same place as OM...

It's not.

Originally Posted by serendipitous
How is your W handling this now?

The same way.

Anyway, I'll figure it out.

What I hope someone could help out with "logic wise" on this is, if it is as bad as it seems (i.e. been keeping it going with OM all along) why the heck did she come home. A year ago, I finally figure that I'm being scammed, I go to a lawyer, I get the divorce stuff going and tell her I want a divorce. Then she quits her job, comes home, starts counseling, opens her accounts to me, shares passwords, we sell our house, move to a new place, etc., etc., all the right moves.

What could she possibly gain by doing all that if her intentions are to keep the A going? My state is a no fault divorce state, so the A would not matter in court. We have no kids to argue custody over. If she wanted out, why not accept the divorce, (or not move in with me when we moved.) And it's not cake eating, because there are no emotional needs of hers that I'm meeting that OM wasn't meeting as well.

Sorry if this post is a bit rambling.
Posted By: catperson Re: Disappointed - 11/11/09 08:11 PM
Question:
Quote
But I can't decide whether I am being scammed

Answer:
Quote
she's had it all the way since Feb '08, which was the last time her cell phone had a call to OM on it.

Enough said.

And let me remind you:
Quote
A year ago, I finally figure that I'm being scammed

And finally:
Quote
What could she possibly gain by doing all that if her intentions are to keep the A going?
Why do people have affairs, rprynne?

Because they are exciting!

They sneak, they lie, they see what they can get away with. It is a thrill.

Cheaters don't WANT to leave their spouse, because their spouse satisfies SOME ENs, while the OM satisfies others. If they wanted OM to satisy all ENs, they'd just leave you and shack up.

All you did by trusting her was let them have another year and a half of more exciting SF.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Disappointed - 11/11/09 08:17 PM
Hey, she is using you and playing with other guys for fun. She could care less about YOU. But she does feel comfortable being with you for now, sort of like you are an old pair of shoes. To break off with you and go to the other man, well, that would take something she does not have. Courage!
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by serendipitous
How is your W handling this now?

Originally Posted by rprynne
The same way.


Those three words speak volumes rp. I'm sorry.

I expect you have a boundary about contact and I also expect that she knows of this boundary? What did she risk with the contact? I certainly know what my boundary is if BB has any contact at all with his OW. He'd be out of the door, and the locks would be changed. They's be welcome to each other and could rut in the mud to their hearts content.

Did she think she may lose you but did it anyway?

Does she have respect for your boundaries rp?

I expect she agreed to EP's and I expect that one of the EP's was something along the lines of "never be the cause of rp's unhappiness", as well as the expected NO CONTACT WITH OM EVER no brainer. She knew the contact would hurt you so why did her wants trump your needs?

I admire your desire to honour your vows but for now I would say you need to protect yourself from someone who is capable of causing you the deepest of hurts, of understanding that pain, yet is willing to do it all over again and again. It takes a special sort of wayward to do that IMO.

I'm sorry rp. My feeling is that she needs to feel real consequences now and I would plan B her and see if that alters her perspective.

Her "doing the same" wouldn't cut it for me.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 02:01 PM
"if it is as bad as it seems (i.e. been keeping it going with OM all along) why the heck did she come home....
What could she possibly gain by doing all that if her intentions are to keep the A going? My state is a no fault divorce state,....If she wanted out, why not accept the divorce,"

Because WW wants the best of both worlds.

What ever is the value of your house, WW would have to live in a house worth half the value post divorce.

WW standard of living would go down. The stigma of being divorced may bother her. Prevent people from finding out the reason for the D was her cheating.

WW has nothing to gain to dump you, and too much to give up once you are gone.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 02:21 PM
Cat, Bubbles and Sere - Yep, you guys are right.

I don't know what my mental block on this is. I'm gonna have to get therapy or something. I told myself (and her) if she broke no contact again, that was it. I tell her to get out, then she looks at me, all sad and teary, says she's sorry, it was a mistake, she wants to try again and before I know it, I feel like the bad guy. I don't have this problem anywhere (or with anyone) else in my life.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by TheRoad
"if it is as bad as it seems (i.e. been keeping it going with OM all along) why the heck did she come home....
What could she possibly gain by doing all that if her intentions are to keep the A going? My state is a no fault divorce state,....If she wanted out, why not accept the divorce,"

Because WW wants the best of both worlds.

What ever is the value of your house, WW would have to live in a house worth half the value post divorce.

WW standard of living would go down. The stigma of being divorced may bother her. Prevent people from finding out the reason for the D was her cheating.

WW has nothing to gain to dump you, and too much to give up once you are gone.

Perhaps TR, I just don't know.
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 02:35 PM
This just sucks bug time rp.

She has to have learned along the way that you will not enforce your boundaries. She must somehow believe she can manipulate you or talk her way out of things, that you just love her too much to be without her.

Unfortunately, the only chance you two have for any sort of future recovery is for you to start enforcing your boundaries and for you to protect yourself from her cruel behaviour.

A dark plan B so that she starts to really believe that she is going to lose you may allow her to see the light.

I really feel for you.



Posted By: Pepperband Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
I told myself (and her) if she broke no contact again, that was it. I tell her to get out, then she looks at me, all sad and teary, says she's sorry, it was a mistake, she wants to try again and before I know it, I feel like the bad guy. I don't have this problem anywhere (or with anyone) else in my life.

You need a PLAN.
"I made a mistake" Your response ... "You make an informed choice."
"I'm sorry" Your response ... "I'm heartbroken, again."
WW is teary and sad ... Your response ... "You've viciously and intentionally wounded me, knowing how much this would hurt me."

Tell WW you are DONE listening to her excuses and that you are DONE comforting her tears.

ASK her to move out.
If she fails to do that, contact an attorney.
Move to another part of the house.
Separate yourself financially.
EXPOSE to every family member and important friends.

"It breaks my heart to tell you, WW has betrayed me again with OM. I am making efforts to separate from her. I ask for your support."
THAT, my friend, is boundary enforcement.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 06:11 PM
rprynne, I'm so sorry that you are going through this.

I read your wife's posts when she came here earlier this year. Unfortunately, those posts have disappeared in the meltdown. I did not say then how disappointed I felt to see how she wrote about her affair, your marriage, and you. I thought it would do nothing useful to point out how less than half-hearted she sounded, but I am going to say it now.

She did not sound as if she came here really seeking advice. She was very reluctant to describe her affair accurately, and never asked how to help her marriage, and you, to recover. If I remember correctly, she described her H (she never pointed out that he was you) as never being happy with the efforts she was making. She suggested that her H's unreasonable demands were pushing her away. She barely mentioned that there had been a false recovery, and when someone finally picked up on this, she never supplied a full picture.

MelodyLane immediately identified a problem with a lack of POJA - the same issue you were discussing in a separate thread, where you had raised the matter of her visits to her sister. Your wife did not seem to like or believe in this principal and argued with Mel. She then drifted away.

I don't know why she moved with you and appeared to go back into the marriage when she could have just walked away.

Am I right in thinking that you lost a daughter? Could your attempt to be compassionate about your wife's loss explain why this happens?

Originally Posted by rprynne
I don't know what my mental block on this is. I'm gonna have to get therapy or something. I told myself (and her) if she broke no contact again, that was it. I tell her to get out, then she looks at me, all sad and teary, says she's sorry, it was a mistake, she wants to try again and before I know it, I feel like the bad guy. I don't have this problem anywhere (or with anyone) else in my life.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 06:29 PM
Rprynne...I am so sorry for your heart and your marriage.

What if you are the bad guy for not keeping your promises, which is enforcing your boundaries? She knew when she quit her job and moved back in, acted transparent, got into counseling, that this was her last chance of saving her marriage.

So she knew, as well, that contacting OM all along the way was continuing the affair. She knew, as Pep so aptly dialogued...please respect that she knew. She chose. Again.

She scams herself, hence, she scams you. You're a bad guy for enabling and encouraging her to break her promises because you continue to break yours. You said "that would be it, if she did it again" and she has, and now, keep your promise.

Listen to these posters...you fear being a bad-guy in your very parentalesque marriage. Stop. You know better. Now do better. Partner her...she knew exactly how horrible you would feel, freshly betrayed again, and again, and again...how every lie tore at the fabric of intimacy, triggered and wounded The Marriage as well as yourself.

She knew.

She knows. Fog tells her it's not real...trust she KNOWS it's real. Self-deception tries to cover truth...distort and change it...still, we know the truth of our actions. Up to you to know this.

And enforcing your boundaries is an act of love, not punishment or fear...do not treat them as such. Your own fog is at play here, making day into night, and night into day. It's not, 'k? Don't buy into her stuff. She's not a child--she's your equal.

She may want to try again...but to try is to lie. The moment she stopped doing transparency, she lied.

I believe you feel like a bad guy not from her teary and temporary remorse...I believe it's coming from how badly you've failed yourself, holding yourself to your boundaries and her to the marital ones. Change that now. Respect her choices, acknowledge and validate that she made them...and respect she knew it would end the marriage.

Whether you do Plan B or Plan D or Plan FU...choose your plan and do not base it on what promises she made or makes now...base that choice on what YOU promised, 'k?

LA
Posted By: cobol_girl Re: Dissapointed - 11/12/09 06:40 PM
It's time for you to get tough and let your W know that your M is over if there is any more contact. She is abusing you. Having an A is abuse plain and simple. Maybe if you showed her that you can live without her she will get her cheating butt in order. You have to stand up for yourself.
Posted By: JoJo422 Re: Dissapointed - 11/12/09 06:52 PM
How do you check it? Ca't calls/emails be deleted from a BB just like from a regular phone?
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Dissapointed - 11/12/09 07:25 PM
Quote
let your W know that your M is over if there is any more contact


He's already let her know this countless times. It doesn't seem to matter to her. She probably thinks by now, what's he gonna do, divorce me?

Rprynne, she is playing you over and over again. Please, don't tolerate this anymore. You deserve a loving, FAITHFUL and trustworthy wife.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 07:54 PM
rprynne,

You asked
Quote
What I hope someone could help out with "logic wise" on this is, if it is as bad as it seems (i.e. been keeping it going with OM all along) why the heck did she come home. A year ago, I finally figure that I'm being scammed, I go to a lawyer, I get the divorce stuff going and tell her I want a divorce. Then she quits her job, comes home, starts counseling, opens her accounts to me, shares passwords, we sell our house, move to a new place, etc., etc., all the right moves.

What could she possibly gain by doing all that if her intentions are to keep the A going? My state is a no fault divorce state, so the A would not matter in court. We have no kids to argue custody over. If she wanted out, why not accept the divorce, (or not move in with me when we moved.) And it's not cake eating, because there are no emotional needs of hers that I'm meeting that OM wasn't meeting as well.

Sorry if this post is a bit rambling.


I will start my answer with a thought problem I saw in an article on intelligence quotients and real intelligence yesterday. I am not questioning your intelligence but I think it illustrates a point I want to make.

Mike calls Ann. Ann calls George. Mike is married. George is single. Was there a call between someone married and someone single? The article points out that most people immediately respond, there is not enough information. When informed there is they figure it out.

Answer to the riddle. If Ann were single then the answer is yes. If Ann were married then the answer is yes. Therefore, one has enough information and the answer is YES.

Now why did I mention this to you? Read what you have asked. You asked the wrong question as if you did not have enough information. If she did not do these things she would have lost something. By doing these things she has lost nothing. She still has you for support and whatever needs you meet, and she still has OM for fun/sex and whatever needs he meets.

Her reason for acting as she did was not because she was going to gain something, it was to prevent her losing something.

I hope this helps you. Oh! and before you ask this is about her, not about you.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Am I right in thinking that you lost a daughter? Could your attempt to be compassionate about your wife's loss explain why this happens?

Your post is very insightful and I appreciate it. I did not know if anyone realized it has my WW posting that thread or not. I did not read it, as I agreed with her that I would not read it, so I can't speak to her tone or thoughts.

My WW is not the menace that she comes across as. Yes, we lost a daughter. In fact, leading up to her A, we lost a daughter, my wife started drinking heavily and she was sexually assaulted by her employer. And we because we never talked about any of that in any meaningful way, we fought. By the time her A started all she wanted to do was sit in a bar, drink and smoke cigarettes, and not have to face any of her problems. This is exactly what OM does.

I don't know. I'll have to think some more on it.
Posted By: catperson Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 11:10 PM
Quote
I tell her to get out, then she looks at me, all sad and teary, says she's sorry, it was a mistake, she wants to try again and before I know it, I feel like the bad guy. I don't have this problem anywhere (or with anyone) else in my life.
When you find that therapist, tell him about your fear of abandonment, as seen in the words above.
Posted By: Chrysalis Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 11:35 PM
rprynne,


I am so very sorry to read this news from you today. I am also a member of the "four years of false recoveries" club and it is not a good club to be in.

Can I ask what you thought your W's character to be in the early days? What are her wonderful traits? Was there ever a person there who wanted to do right just because it was right? If so, can you identify when things changed?

I feel your hesitation at what are perfectly reasonable suggestions about boundary enforcement. I have been in your shoes very many times. Like you, I could not bring myself to deny him his repeated requests to try again after yet another failure.

Today, I am glad I hung in there. I see the character coming back. I am having happy days.

No one will blame you if you decide to be done. But you alone have to be at peace with that choice.

I do think that staying needs to be costly for her. By that I mean that she has to start to face herself and her problems in a real way. Therapy, some serious work at healing the damage she has done, a decision to turn away from her selfish indulgence.

This is such a hard road to walk. The damage done is so great. I am in a vastly better place than I was not too long ago. I hope you can be soon, too.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Disappointed - 11/12/09 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
I did not know if anyone realized it has my WW posting that thread or not. I did not read it, as I agreed with her that I would not read it, so I can't speak to her tone or thoughts.
I only knew it was her because you mentioned on a thread that she was then posting here. You were asked her name and you said you would rather not give it was you wanted her to get unbiased advice.

I only read your comment several weeks after you wrote it. I must have been going through some old posts for some reason; probably when I was caught up in my "assumptions" thread, on which you posted.

Your post intrigued me. I went through all the new arrivals on SaA over a relevant period, identified the (F)WWs and found her quickly.

She could only have been that poster, but a reader would have thought that this was a different marriage from yours. There was no sense whatever of her refusal to give up all contact with OM, or of how long this had dragged on for, poisoning her marriage. There was no sense of her husband's pain, only irritation at his incessant complaints. His complaints made her unsure that she wanted to recover the marriage.

It seemed clear to me that no-one posting to her realised that her H had ever posted here, let alone that he was you, and yet she received the identical advice that you were receiving about POJA. If you wanted to unbiased advice in action, well, there you had it. People saw right through her lack of interest in her marriage, and lack of care for her H, even though she was not trying to show that.

What did she tell you about the advice she was getting, or did you not talk about it? What reason did she give for stopping posting? Were you disappointed when she stopped? Did her lack of persistence tell you anything?

Originally Posted by rprynne
My WW is not the menace that she comes across as. Yes, we lost a daughter. In fact, leading up to her A, we lost a daughter, my wife started drinking heavily and she was sexually assaulted by her employer. And we because we never talked about any of that in any meaningful way, we fought. By the time her A started all she wanted to do was sit in a bar, drink and smoke cigarettes, and not have to face any of her problems. This is exactly what OM does.
These must have been terrible for both of you to go through, and I am sorry.

If it wouldn't hurt too much, would you mind refreshing us about the timeline of these things? I'm unclear also about how long the affair has been on/off/on.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Sugarcane
What did she tell you about the advice she was getting, or did you not talk about it?

She felt the advice was good, but not entirely practical.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
What reason did she give for stopping posting? Were you disappointed when she stopped? Did her lack of persistence tell you anything?

She stopped because the only one posting to her was Mel, and she felt she already understood her POV. At first, I was not disappointed because she said she was going to start up again.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
If it wouldn't hurt too much, would you mind refreshing us about the timeline of these things? I'm unclear also about how long the affair has been on/off/on.

Sure. We lost the baby in 2002. After we lost the baby, my wife and I grieved and healed and then talked about trying again, and she said she was all for it. But while saying she was all for it, she started working later and later and more increasingly came home drunk. (It started as had a glass of wine at the office after work, then entertaining clients, etc.). We fought more and more and basically the fights were some mixture of "you are never home and how can we have kids if we never see each other". I do not know all the details but sometime in 2003 was when she was assualted. (I was not told of this until around 2006 and my wife would not seek therapy about it or talk to me about it. The man that did it was already dead). For the balance of 2003 and into 2004 she came home less and less, drank more and more, and at one point got a DUI. At first the DUI made her quit drinking, but then later, it just made her quit driving, so I started getting a ton of "I had a couple of drinks with clients, and I just don't want risk driving home, so I'm going to stay with a friend. (The friend was single and I think really encouraged my wife to start hanging out with her in bars). While this was going on she was being treated poorly at work by her boss, and eventually her employer accused her of wrong doing in which my wife gave them her entire retirement to settle a case. Sometime in mid 2004 is when she started seeing OM. She knew him through work, but he did not work with her.

In late 2004, she said she wanted to quit her job. I thought it was the best thing for her and agreed. So she quit. However, the A was still going on, so even though I thought she would finally be home more often, she was gone even more. Always some excuse, visiting friends, a job interview here or there, etc. So we fought about that.

In early 2005, she finally came to me and told me she did not want to have kids. I did not handle this well, because frankly, that is what I had been saying all along and she kept denying it. A few days after that, I got ILYBNILWY talk. A few weeks after that, she got a job offer in a town very far from us. However, the company said they wanted to open an office in our location. And she just needed to go there for training for 3 months. I agreed and she went. 3 months, after she left, was d-day in early July 2005.

At first she said the A was already over. I dug and researched and found out that was not true. She was actually living with OM. I exposed to her family and my family. She did not have any friends to expose to. Her family basically said "your a fine son-in-law but we just want her to be happy. Her family knows she had the affair, but really won't talk to her about it.

After exposure she sent a NC letter, but I believe she intercepted it. After all, she had access to his mail. I busted her on the phone with him, so she sent an e-mail NC letter. Which upset OM and he told her off. She immediately got back in touch with him to explain she was just doing that to appease me. I think this is the first time OM even knew she was married. In late 2005, she sent a third NC letter and we started working with Steve Harley. I believe she actually maintained NC for probably 3 or 4 months. She had since confessed that the job was never going to be located where we live, and she was quitting her job as soon as she got her year end bonus. During the first half of 2006, she kept coming up with excuses why she couldn't quit the job yet, but would come home on weekends, and was doing things to prove she wasn't in contact with OM. After a few months, I was up late one night, her cell phone rang and and someone left a voicemail. I woke her up and had her play it for me. It was OM. Her story was that he had called her for some bland reason and they had just started talking again. We quit MC with the Harley's, I took a leave of absence from work and figured it was time to move on.

I separated all our finances, and moved out and told her do whatever she wants. She said she wanted to work it out and I said well clearly you don't want to follow the MB plan, so you pick a plan and I'll give it a try. This was in Apr of 2007. For the next year or so, she worked in the other town, but would stay with me on weekends at least and sometimes for longer stretches. She set up MC with another counselor and we started going. The MC was pretty good. Although he said one thing that I thought helped and one thing that I thought hurt us. He did tell my WW that NC was essential. (Even non MB MC's know that). But he also kept pointing out that there are successful long distance marriages. My WW latched on to this and basically for that year kept trying to have a long distance marriage. I told her repeatedly that I did not believe that would work for me, but perhaps if we address other issues, things might get better and we could see where we go. Anyway, we didn't really address the other issues.

In late 2007, I told her this isn't working, and I wanted a divorce. She said she did not want that and quit her job. In Jan of 2008, she quit her job and moved back in with me in my apartment. We did some MC during this time, but not really much breakthrough. In about April 2008, our MC retired. Shortly after that we decided to move back into our house and my WW told me that she wanted to come clean about things. She should me her cell phone records, which showed she had once again resumed contact with OM, but it had appeared to end in Feb of 2008. I wasn't real happy about it, but she was home and she did volunteer the information, so I thought maybe we were turining a corner.

Since that time, she had agreed to answer all my questions, which she did, (I believe truthfully this time), had been completely transparent, suggested we re-do the EN questionaire and, closed her checking account, just a bunch of stuff. I was still a little leary and we were trying to sell our house. I had remain relatively reserved and guarded during all of this and to be blunt, kind of expected that the minute we sold the house, she was going to drop a bomb on me.

But we sold the house and she moved into the new place with me, and things seem fine. She made the occassional trip to see her sister, but frankly, I trust her sister. I don't think she would support her A. Then about 3 months ago. The company she use to work for had a job where she is an expert. They asked her if she would do some consulting on it. We POJA'd that, and I agreed to let her do the consulting work. At first, that seemed to work well. But then, she started "violate" terms of the POJA. Little things at first, but then bigger things. I can't say we fought about it, but I was pretty clear I wasn't thrilled.

This is when she started posting here. I did not read her posts, but I guarentee the theme was "what if there is something I want to do that makes my husband unhappy. If I agree to not make my husband unhappy, aren't I losing my indentity. And if I lose my indentity won't I be miserable, because I don't buy that a loving committed relationship really makes one happy and furthermore, nothing I do is enough to make my H happy."

Shortly after that, is when the weird behavior started again. Things like being real careful where she leaves her bags. "Double trips" as I call them. Things like she says she's going to the store, and I say I want to go with you. And somehow magically we forgot to get something, so she has to run back out again without me. Anyway, I knew something was up again. And when she went to take the garbage out (and it took about 15 minutes) I went downstairs and caught on a cell phone I knew nothing about.

Anyway, that's the timeline.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
This is when she started posting here. I did not read her posts, but I guarentee the theme was "what if there is something I want to do that makes my husband unhappy. If I agree to not make my husband unhappy, aren't I losing my indentity. And if I lose my indentity won't I be miserable, because I don't buy that a loving committed relationship really makes one happy and furthermore, nothing I do is enough to make my H happy."
Bingo. That is exactly what she said. I thought the reason she stopped posting was because Mel was insistent that she should want both herself and her H to be happy, and she was prepared to do things only for herself. She did not see what was wrong with that and felt people were not trying to see her POV. They were trotting out MB-speak that they follow like sheep around here and she had no time for that simplistic thinking.

Thank you for the time line. It is complex. I will read it again.

I read right through the "run of the mill WW" thread today and I saw a lot more from you that explained what you should be doing now. Are you able to follow your own logic and take action based on it?

I can see that I misunderstood your position a bit until I read through the thread again. I now understand what you meant by the mixture of disposition and situation producing everyone and anyone's behaviour.

Do you still have hope that you can make your wife's situation in the affair so uncomfortable that she will want to end it, or do you think that she will forever try to have both the affair and her marriage?
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Do you still have hope that you can make your wife's situation in the affair so uncomfortable that she will want to end it, or do you think that she will forever try to have both the affair and her marriage?

I don't know. I will get 2x4's for this, but many times I feel the A, the contact, is just a symptom of the real issue. As soon as something comes up that she thinks I will be unhappy about, she throws the switch and goes into this manipulative mode. Which is a stressor. And it builds and builds, until she does something really bad.

I can not seem to get her to believe that if she would just bring it up, let us work through it, that she will end up on the better side of things. She may not get everything she wants, everytime, but still.

I don't know why I think of this, but when we were dating, she got really drunk. It was in college, it was stupid, one of those things you do. She was drinking shots, and sitting down, and when she got up, it all hit her it once. She couldn't even walk. So I carried her all the way across campus and I took her home and I was angry. Really angry. She got sick and and I had to put her in the shower and still couldn't stand up. And I was screaming at her to just stand up. And she was trying so hard, but... she couldn't.

She doesn't remember any of it. But I do. I've always hated myself for that. She was trying, but she was just too drunk. And I was there yelling at her.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Do you still have hope that you can make your wife's situation in the affair so uncomfortable that she will want to end it, or do you think that she will forever try to have both the affair and her marriage?

I don't know. I will get 2x4's for this, but many times I feel the A, the contact, is just a symptom of the real issue. As soon as something comes up that she thinks I will be unhappy about, she throws the switch and goes into this manipulative mode. Which is a stressor. And it builds and builds, until she does something really bad.
I know enough about your insight to know that you are not talking nonsense or crying out for a 2x4. However, I don't get what you have just said in relation to the affair.

What is the "real issue"?

What is the thing, just recently, that she thinks you will be unhappy about?

How is the affair supposed to work as manipulation?

Does she get what she wants when she does something "really bad"?

How does her moving back in with you fit into this?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 04:24 PM
Reading your timeline is very sad.
She's put you through a lot.

She's entitled (in her mind) to independent behaviors that make her "happy" irregardless of how it effects you.(see family of origin point of view)
I don't think this will change.

She's not going to POJA in earnest without a huge shift in her value system. Even if she now professes to be willing to POJA (now that she's caught again) I doubt she will ever willingly and lovingly eliminate making independent decisions. There is no reason/evidence you should believe she is earnest and sincere.

In her mind, I believe, she does not want to lose you because on many fronts YOU make her happy. In other words, she feels entitled to "keep" you but not required to stop her independent behaviors.

Cake anyone?
Posted By: writer1 Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 04:33 PM
I've been reading through this thread, and I keep seeing a common theme of alcohol and drinking popping up again and again. Is your wife an alcoholic?
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
What is the "real issue"?

What is the thing, just recently, that she thinks you will be unhappy about?

How is the affair supposed to work as manipulation?

Does she get what she wants when she does something "really bad"?

How does her moving back in with you fit into this?

The real issue is that my WW can not grasp a middle ground between giver and taker. She is either/or on those fronts. When she attempts reconciliation she goes into a complete sacrifice mode. This is suffocating for her, so eventually her taker comes out. But she is a conflict avoider. So rather than say, I want to do this or that, she schemes a way to do it that involves lies and deceit. (That's the manipulation I'm talking about) And then it just spirals from there. And to be clear, I'm not talking about her taker coming out meaning she want to see OM, I'm talking minor stuff.

She moves back in because she really wants to do the right thing. But then she goes about it in a manner that makes her miserable. Then rather than conclude she's going about it wrong, she concludes it can not be done. So she goes back to what she was doing before.
Posted By: catperson Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 06:53 PM
Quote
The real issue is that my WW can not grasp a middle ground between giver and taker. She is either/or on those fronts. When she attempts reconciliation she goes into a complete sacrifice mode. This is suffocating for her, so eventually her taker comes out. But she is a conflict avoider. So rather than say, I want to do this or that, she schemes a way to do it that involves lies and deceit. (That's the manipulation I'm talking about) And then it just spirals from there. And to be clear, I'm not talking about her taker coming out meaning she want to see OM, I'm talking minor stuff.

She moves back in because she really wants to do the right thing. But then she goes about it in a manner that makes her miserable. Then rather than conclude she's going about it wrong, she concludes it can not be done. So she goes back to what she was doing before.
You should copy this and send it to her. And her parents.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by writer1
I've been reading through this thread, and I keep seeing a common theme of alcohol and drinking popping up again and again. Is your wife an alcoholic?

This is a very touchy subject with her. When she is not drinking, she admits to having periods of time when she is drinking too much. When she is drinking, she is convinced that I think she is an alcoholic. I am not an expert on alcoholism, so I do not know the true definition. But, I personally do not think she is an alcoholic. But, I think she at times she is worried that she might be.
Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 07:08 PM
Rprynne:

I'm sorry that your W is still at it with OM. I think her empathy bone is broken.



Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 07:47 PM
rprynne,

I have no words for you only a cyber hug hug .

I hope you can decide what is best for YOU.

SC
Posted By: Nanowritersix Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
I don't know why I think of this, but when we were dating, she got really drunk. It was in college, it was stupid, one of those things you do. She was drinking shots, and sitting down, and when she got up, it all hit her it once. She couldn't even walk. So I carried her all the way across campus and I took her home and I was angry. Really angry. She got sick and and I had to put her in the shower and still couldn't stand up. And I was screaming at her to just stand up. And she was trying so hard, but... she couldn't.

I believe our subconscious gives us the answers to our questions when we are ready for them. So things that "pop" into our heads--maybe they come from that place.

You had a lot of choices as to how to react when you saw how drunk she was. You could have abandoned her where she got drunk. You could have laughed at her trying to stand up in the shower, while you cleaned her up. You could have calmly cleaned her up and not thought twice about it, chalked it up to human frailty. So why were you angry? Why were you trying to make her do something she could not physically do? Why do you think you had that reaction?

Your wife reminds me a lot of my mother in that she cannot face things head on--to an extraordinary degree. In my mother's case it meant that she would not do anything until she was forced to by expediency. It was as if she could not make decisions in the long range, so she ignored problems until someone was threatening divorce or legal action or whatever and then she would actually make a pretty good decision. She was not a stupid person and could easily have made these decisions in advance, but did not. It's hard to explain. She understood cause and effect, but could never seem to see what was coming down the tracks as a result of her actions--ever. She could live on her paycheck, but never put money in the bank against the inevitable rainy day.

Does your anger at your wife not being able to face her problems make her avoid you even more? Are you yet another problem that she cannot face head-on?




Posted By: Just Learning Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 08:07 PM
rprynne,

I think your W is a functioning alcoholic. I also think your analysis of the situation is correct. She wants you but does not know how to compromise...with herself.

I wonder if IC will help her. I do think you should offer her that paragraph you wrote about her inability to balance giver/taker but rather swing from one to the other.

I would really like to offer you some great advice that would solve your problems or lead to a path where such a solution exists, but I really don't know what it would be.

I will say that eventually YOU have to follow your own path and whether or not your W comes with you will be left for her decide based on actions that you find acceptable.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 09:00 PM
Quote
Why do you think you had that reaction?

I reacted that why because I thought that she wasn't really trying. I thought that she thought it was funny.

Quote
Your wife reminds me a lot of my mother in that she cannot face things head on--to an extraordinary degree. In my mother's case it meant that she would not do anything until she was forced to by expediency. It was as if she could not make decisions in the long range, so she ignored problems until someone was threatening divorce or legal action or whatever and then she would actually make a pretty good decision. She was not a stupid person and could easily have made these decisions in advance, but did not. It's hard to explain. She understood cause and effect, but could never seem to see what was coming down the tracks as a result of her actions--ever. She could live on her paycheck, but never put money in the bank against the inevitable rainy day.

My wife has many of these traits.

Quote
Does your anger at your wife not being able to face her problems make her avoid you even more? Are you yet another problem that she cannot face head-on?

Yes and no. In reality, I do not have anger towards my wife. But she percieves that I do. It is less described as anger, but more described as unhappiness.

As an example, the other day, she told me she was thinking about planning a trip for us to Las Vegas for my birthday. My response was I'm not so sure I want to celebrate my birthday. I said this basically in passing, and all I meant was that I'm not so sure I feel like doing anything special, because frankly I'd like to pretend I'm not getting older. Later, in talking with me, she cited this response about my birthday as evidence that I did not think she was giving enough effort on our recovery.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
She's entitled (in her mind) to independent behaviors that make her "happy" irregardless of how it effects you.(see family of origin point of view)
I don't think this will change.

What do you mean by family of origin point of view?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Disappointed - 11/13/09 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
What do you mean by family of origin point of view?

This:

Quote
Her family basically said "your a fine son-in-law but we just want her to be happy.

and this:

Quote
Her family knows she had the affair, but really won't talk to her about it.

Their concern is not about their daughter's "goodness" or righteousness.
Their concern is that she be "happy", no matter if she abandons her vows/morals/marriage/promises.

Being "happy" at the expense of other important things in life is what she grew up with. (apparently, according to you )
Posted By: krusht Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 12:37 AM
RP,

If your wife is a functioning alcoholic or a non-functioning one, i e falling down in the shower type, if she comes home drunk more often than not or stays away after the DUI because she is to tipsy to drive home, then she is an alcoholic somewhere on that scale.

Now because she is an alcoholic, don't we usually say that the MB principals don't really apply?

Do we have to cure the drinking first?

I'm just grasping here.

kirk
Posted By: nesre Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 05:24 AM
This is just part of an article on "An alcoholic spouse". There are three letters and Dr. Harley goes into great detail.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

The newer editions of LB's had a chapter added with alcohol/drug addiction listed as a LB.


Many of you who were raised by a parent who was addicted to alcohol can testify to the nightmare that it brought to your family.

One of the first things I do when couples see me for counseling is to evaluate them for drug and alcohol addiction. If I feel that either is addicted at the time, I refer the addicted spouse to a treatment program. The Love Buster, drug or alcohol addiction, will prevent them from resolving their marital conflicts because it controls them. It must be eliminated before marital therapy has any hope of being successful.
My job as a marriage counselor begins after successful treatment and sobriety. If the addicted spouse refuses treatment, then I direct the unaddicted spouse to Alanon or some other support group for spouses of alcoholics. Sometimes, I encourage an intervention.

That's what I learned to do after discovering that an alcoholic is so much in love with alcohol, that while in the state of addiction, there is no way for them to consider their spouse's feelings whenever they make decisions, a necessary condition for a great marriage. Alcohol always comes first, even when it is at the spouse's expense.

But even after sobriety is achieved, it's an uphill battle for the couple. The spouses of alcoholics are usually so relieved when treatment is successful that they often think their marital troubles are over. It's true, addiction makes it impossible to resolve marital conflicts. But sobriety itself doesn't solve them -- it simply makes them solvable. Once addiction is overcome, a couple is faced with the legions of other Love Busters that were ignored in the shadow of addiction or were created by addiction.

Some people wonder if they are really alcoholics. They may not go to bars, and they may not even get drunk very often. What is an alcoholic? My definition of an alcoholic is someone who cannot follow the Policy of Joint Agreement because of their craving for alcohol. If your drinking in any form bothers your spouse, and you cannot or will not give it up for his or her sake, I consider you an alcoholic because alcohol is more important to you than the feelings of your spouse.
This week, I am posting three letters from victims of addiction. Each one provides a different perspective on this marital problem that is very difficult to solve.


Go to site search and type in alcoholic spouse to view the whole article.


From experience I know this first hand.......

MB principles will not work unless you are both present to work them. If she is alcoholic the alcohol will be her first love.
Nesre
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 05:52 AM
It sounds like your wife has an INNER priority list of who is most important to her and in her life. It looks like this:

1. Her alcohol
2, Her other men
3. Herself
4. Her parents/family
5. Her other friends
6. Other aquaintences
7. You, her husband.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 05:53 AM
I cannot figure out why you would continue a marriage with this multiple liar and cheater. Who puts up with this from a spouse?
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 11:29 AM
rp, I get the sense from reading here that you are searching for an explanation for her actions that will enable you to stay with your WW without losing your personal integrity.

That you are trying to identify her "major issues" so that you can say to yourself that it is the issues driving your WW's behaviour, and that you can then fix them for her.

Is this issue alcohol, is it grief, is it FOO issues? As a fellow BS, I understand the search for a reason that can explain how the WS could hurt you so incredibly. It's so hard to accept that the person you love is capable of such cruelty so you desperately look for an issue that somehow absolves the WS from the responsibility for their actions. I think all us BS's undertake similar searches. Finding some sort of explanation does make it easier to stay in the relationship and attempt recovery.

However. whatever explanation is found, the BS eventually has to accept that the WS always had choices and the choices they made were selfish, self interested ones with little regard for anyone other than themselves.

For me, understanding the WS mentality through MB has helped me entertain the notion of forgiving my FWS for his A, but if my FWH were to hurt me again via contact with OW or any inappropriate behaviour with any other woman, I would be out of the door, Usain Bolt fast. I KNOW that and as importantly my FWH knows that.

I just simply do not understand how a WS can see the pain a BS goes through and then repeat the offence. It astounds me when that happens. So, whatever your wife's issues are, will they absolve her of the responsibility for repeatedly stabbing you in the back?

If you find a reason to stay, do you think you can fix her? Do you think that protecting her from facing the consequences of her actions will help her? Reading some of your recent posts you do sound a little like a parent rather than a H.

No-one here has any right to tell you what to do. You have to be happy with whatever decisions you make and you clearly still love your W so maybe there is hope that this can be turned around. BUT, your W has some serious work to do and I don't see how she will be motivated to do that work if she doesn't face any consequences for her horrible decisions. She is too self centred to do the real work if she isn't somehow forced to do it by having that mirror brought right up close and personal. All your false recoveries are testament to her selfishness.

Finding excuses for her poor behaviour hasn't worked so far to change her behaviour, so maybe you need to change how you handle the betrayals.

Again, I feel for you and I'm so sorry you are in this awful situation.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Being "happy" at the expense of other important things in life is what she grew up with. (apparently, according to you )

Ok. I understand what you mean. I think what she grew up with was sacrificing to keep everyone else happy. Her family's reaction is more along of the lines of conflict avoidance. She was one of those families that no matter what's really going on, everyone tries to keep up appearences of the picture perfect family.

Originally Posted by Krusht
Do we have to cure the drinking first?

I truly considered that for a long time early after d-day. I was fully aware of the concept that really nothing can be done towards recovery with an alcoholic. During the early false recoveries, drinking was still very prevalent, so I sort of expected the poor results on recovery. But, she has really changed in the last 2 years or so on that front. Now, she only drinks when we are together (maybe once or twice when she is out with her sister). She still drinks more than me, but has not been "falling down" drunk during that time. The only other thing I can say of note related to that, is when we have R talk, she drinks. The only time she really talks is when she has had a few drinks. Again, since I know so little about alcoholism, I have no idea what that means.

Originally Posted by serendipitous
Finding excuses for her poor behaviour hasn't worked so far to change her behaviour, so maybe you need to change how you handle the betrayals.

Thanks for your post. I guess this is what I'd say. I thought my WW had issues, and if those issues were addressed, we could recover. I ackowledge that the folks who basically say, she is just a bad person may be right. But I figured we could test that out one way or the other and go from there.
Posted By: ToBeContinued Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by serendipitous
(1) If you find a reason to stay, do you think you can fix her? Do you think that protecting her from facing the consequences of her actions will help her? Reading some of your recent posts you do sound a little like a parent rather than a H.

I think part of the problem is the BS thinking that somehow he/she can make deposits or avoid withdrawals by offering that protection. Not true. It's nothing but ENABLING. Trust me. I know. I have been sucked into that trap. It becomes nothing more than a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Originally Posted by serendipitous
(2) No-one here has any right to tell you what to do. You have to be happy with whatever decisions you make and you clearly still love your W so maybe there is hope that this can be turned around. BUT, your W has some serious work to do and I don't see how she will be motivated to do that work if she doesn't face any consequences for her horrible decisions. She is too self centred to do the real work if she isn't somehow forced to do it by having that mirror brought right up close and personal. All your false recoveries are testament to her selfishness.

A common theme within the wayward is selfishness. Then the fight -- the race -- is to make the betrayed's environment more appealing to the wayward than the environment being created by both the OP and the enabling by the betrayed.

Originally Posted by serendipitous
(3) Finding excuses for her poor behaviour hasn't worked so far to change her behaviour, so maybe you need to change how you handle the betrayals.

For me, I either manufactured those excuses, or bought my WW's bill of goods regarding her innocent relationship with OM. On Thursday night, when she said she wouldn't end her relationship with him and acknowledged that it was starting to escalate, that did it for me. Sure, it was a spousal 2x4 delivered solidly to the back of the cranium, BUT it knocked something loose. FINALLY, I was able to stop making excuses (or buying them from WW), and NOW I can see the situation for what it really is -- HER choices and the consequences that come from them.

We are all different. The only shoes we get to walk in are our own. Maybe I should have done some things differently. Can't we all say that about ourselves and other facets of our lives? You bet. As BS's, we don't recover our M by feeding into this warped sense of support and entitlement. We certainly don't recover OURSELVES. If we continue to listen, if we continue to learn, we will continue to experience personal growth. And THAT is an end product that I am truly interested in buying......

Thanks,
TB


Posted By: serendipitous Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
I thought my WW had issues, and if those issues were addressed, we could recover. I ackowledge that the folks who basically say, she is just a bad person may be right. But I figured we could test that out one way or the other and go from there.

I haven't said she is a bad person rp. I cannot make such a judgement as I don't know her. I can judge her actions though and I can say she has made bad and selfish decisions. The question is what can be done so that she doesn't make the same bad selfish decisions again. I asked you how your WW was handling things and you said "the same".

To me, if you both do the same now as you did after the other D-Days, then in time you will likely see the same results, ie, broken no contact.

If doing the same thing over and over isn't working, then surely you need to try something different. I don't know what type of different you should do,(plan B, plan D, whatever) but I do think you should change the way you handle this in some way.

She obviously NEEDS things that you provide because she doesn't want to lose you, but then again she isn't willing or able to give up what she gets from the OM to fully commit to you. The OM might just be an escape from reality. I don't know what it is she gets from him, but she has to work it out. Then she has to share with you that broken part of her that she is not yet willing to face up to. I worry about why she hasn't had the motivation to be introspective enough to examine her own behaviour after the previous false recoveries.

Surely, she has seen you in pain. Why has that not motivated her to change?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 04:46 PM
The only time she really talks is when she has had a few drinks. Again, since I know so little about alcoholism, I have no idea what that means.

R, you need to research ALCOHOLICISM. You NEED to learn all about it. It is easy to learn about it like you would learn about anything else in life. There is no excuse NOT to learn about it. Perhaps you do not want to learn about alcolicism because you do not WANT TO KNOW if your wife is alcoholic!

If you learn about it, you will HAVE to face the facts and the truth. Are you ready to face the truth that your wife is totally selfish and an alcoholic?

Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 04:48 PM
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...;aq=0&oq=is+my+wife+an+al&aqi=g1
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 04:50 PM
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 04:52 PM
Spend about 8 hours researching alcoholics and thier traits. You may also want to call up AA and go to a few meetings both AA and ALANON. These are worth going to to learn more. You are not alone but if you continue to ignore that there COULD be an alcohol addiction here with your wife, you are ignoring the truth and the facts.

You have to face hard truths in life. You cannot ignore the truth.
Posted By: nesre Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 04:54 PM
RP

Its a long read but worth it on bounderies.
It has taken a long time for it to sink into me.
I have a lot of good bounderies but am poor to enforce them.

Be true to your self.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1908971&page=4

Hope this helps. You can only fix yourself.

Nesre


Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by serendipitous
She obviously NEEDS things that you provide because she doesn't want to lose you, but then again she isn't willing or able to give up what she gets from the OM to fully commit to you. The OM might just be an escape from reality. I don't know what it is she gets from him, but she has to work it out. Then she has to share with you that broken part of her that she is not yet willing to face up to. I worry about why she hasn't had the motivation to be introspective enough to examine her own behaviour after the previous false recoveries.

It wouldn't surprise me if MT is an alcoholic. This would explain her lack of impulse control and lack of empathy. She drinks to blot out life and exhibits a classic personality change when she does. Alcohol keeps a person chained to their own selfish desires. We call it self will run riot and MT has certainly demonstrated that.

That being said, rprynne, the issue really lies with you. She has shown you that she is not willing to change and will never protect you in a safe marriage. She has never been willing to do those things. What she is willing to do is say and do whatever is necessary to keep you taking care of her. Now I understand why she has hung onto you so despite the fact that she doesn't love you. She NEEDS YOU. Alcoholics always have to have a fall back guy to take care of them. That is what you are. You are a RESOURCE, not a husband.

This is why Dr Harley does not advocate Plan A with an alcoholic. It is because the emotions of an alcoholic are so warped that they cannot become emotionally intimate with another human being. Other people are simply viewed as resources for exploitation. So plan A will not acheive emotional intimacy but a new opportunity to exploit you.

So, instead of wasting time trying to decide if MT is a "bad person" or not, I would be asking myself if this is the marriage I want. I think, rprynne, your answer is yes, evidenced by the fact that you have chosen to live like this FOR YEARS. When I see someone who has the same problems year after year I know I am talking to someone who LIKES the status quo. People who really want change.............change.

And rprynne, many alcoholics rarely get drunk. Many just drink on a regular basis to blot out life. It sounds like that is what MT does. She also exhibits the classic personality change while under the influence.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 05:04 PM
It is always tempting to ignore facts that are hard to face. I have done it myself. But the longer you put off learning about alcoholic behavior and traits, and become an expert on alcohol addiction and the longer you deny she has an alcohol addiction problem, the longer you will be unable to improve your marriage in any way. And the longer you will be unable to leave the bad marriage that you cannot improve.

Can you accept her cheating, her selfishness and her other bad behaviors for say.....the next year? How bout the next 5 years? Or the next 10 years?

I would not be able to put up with a spouse like that for even 6 months more. I would be outa there. I would value myself more than that.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 05:10 PM
I will dig it out later, but Dr Harley, who used to run alcohol treatment centers, noticed something that most alcoholics have discovered. And that is that many are divorced AFTER they sober up.

Their spouses really LIKED keeping them sick and dependent on them. [hence the endless enabling and excuses for their behavior] Alcoholics are really very dependent on their spouses because the spouse is the only ADULT in the relationship. When the alcoholic sobers up, the spouse RESENTS having to share control with another adult and divorces the alcoholic.

I just read his comments on this in his book Defending Traditional Marriage; I will try and find it later today.

But when I see someone who stays in such an abusive marriage year after year, I know I am talking to someone who does not really want change.
Posted By: serendipitous Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 05:51 PM
Mel, those two posts of yours have hit the nail right on the head.

I don't know enough about alcohol problems to determine if alcohol is the issue here, but it definitely appears that there is dependency and enabling going on and the reluctance to change the dynamic suggests that both mr and mrs rp gain something from maintaining the status quo.

We all seem to be seeing a picture here rp, and you are the painter so I'm puzzled as to why you cannot see it?

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Disappointed - 11/14/09 07:50 PM
I was going to write a post, but instead I decided to copy one that says exactly what I wanted to express:
Quote
So, instead of wasting time trying to decide if MT is a "bad person" or not, I would be asking myself if this is the marriage I want. I think, rprynne, your answer is yes, evidenced by the fact that you have chosen to live like this FOR YEARS. When I see someone who has the same problems year after year I know I am talking to someone who LIKES the status quo. People who really want change.............change.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/16/09 07:31 PM
Quote
Surely, she has seen you in pain. Why has that not motivated her to change?

It does. It has.

How do I put this? I'm not so naive as to say something like "things are making progress in our marriage even though she keeps making contact with OM." I know that doesn't work. But I'm also not willing to agree with those who say nothing has changed (or she has made no changes) because she broke no contact.

I'll do the research on the alcoholism. I think it's crazy to think I fear finding that out. I'm not an expert on it because my WW has met with 3 separate Dr's (including Harley) where her drinking was discussed and not one of them has said "Ah hah, there's the issue."

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
So, instead of wasting time trying to decide if MT is a "bad person" or not, I would be asking myself if this is the marriage I want. I think, rprynne, your answer is yes, evidenced by the fact that you have chosen to live like this FOR YEARS. When I see someone who has the same problems year after year I know I am talking to someone who LIKES the status quo. People who really want change.............change.

I think your wrong about what I want. I haven't chosen to live like this for years. I've either been duped for years by a paticulary manipulative person, or I'm married to a person who keeps failing at trying to do the right things. However, I agree with your first part. I've wasted too much time trying to figure it out. There just comes a point where it doesn't matter which one it is.

Thanks all for your support.
Posted By: catperson Re: Disappointed - 11/16/09 07:47 PM
Get her the book Healing the Shame That Binds You (get someone else to give it to her). I think she'll recognize herself in there - using destructive tools to sabotage herself rather than see or admit her faults. Very powerful stuff. Or read it yourself, so you can see the patterns and address them.
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/17/09 08:14 PM
deleted
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by 2long
rp: I believe that you will decide what 2 do about this marriage when you do, not on anyone's perceived 'correct schedule' and not because you feel you're enabling or otherwise recovering from your experience incorrectly. When you're ready 2 call it quits, if that's your decision, you'll know, because you'll be at peace with that decision.

Thanks for the comments 2long, I appreciate it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by 2long
[But Mel's comment above isn't really fair. It's plausible enough that many here glom on2 it and go "yeah! that's what's really wrong here!", but the plausibility serves 2 mask an insult.

2Long, is it an "insult" to point out the obvious? I don't think so. It might hurt and I can understand how it might hit a sore spot with you; I don't think "fairness" has relevance, though. What is relevant is acceptance of reality. And the truth is that when someone doesn't change; when they have the same problem year after year after year, their inaction reflects the truth of the situation: that they don't truly want change. Their actions [or lack thereof in this case] bely their words. You can say you want change, but when nothing ever changes, the lack of action demonstrates the truth. I can "say" I want to go to Omaha, but if I never bother to get in the car and go there, how credible am I when I express this wish?

Quote
As one of those former MBers who "chose 2 live like that for years", I can say for certain that BSs in these si2ations don't do this because they like it. There probably is a certain amount of fear of the unknown behind their perceived inaction (2 the satisfaction of the cheerleaders on these boards). There are probably a lot of other concerns as well - like financial entanglements, family issues, or other matters that likely cannot be described in detail and still preserve anonymity.

I agree that fear is likely the driving paralyzer. Some let it control them, others don't. But it is always a choice. When we allow fear to dictate our decisions, we are making a choice to not change. We are no longer victims, but volunteers. Everyone here is afraid to make change, 2Long. But some allow that fear to paralyze them into inaction and some don't. The people who truly want change don't let their fear stop them, those who don't want change, use it as an excuse to maintain the status quo.

Quote
For me, it helped very little when people would label me an enabler. JL was the first (maybe the only one, I can't remember) 2 note that because my W's affair lasted so long, it might take her as long 2 recover from it. At first I was horrified at the thought of up 2 11 years of recovery. But then I discovered I can be patient.

And this demonstrates my point about someone who doesn't really want change. Your situation is sad, but saying that recovery will take a long time is not an excuse to NEVER even begin recovery. A 10 year Plan A is not "recovery," 2Long, it is conflict avoidance.

2Long, I want to clarify that you don't have to justify yourself to anyone here. If you want to live like this, that is your prerogative and your choice. But please don't ask others to believe that this is anything more than accepting the status quo or that you really want "change." I don't buy that for a minute. But, it is your life, not mine.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by 2long
[rp: I believe that you will decide what 2 do about this marriage when you do, not on anyone's perceived 'correct schedule' and not because you feel you're enabling or otherwise recovering from your experience incorrectly. When you're ready 2 call it quits, if that's your decision, you'll know, because you'll be at peace with that decision.

2Long, just so you know, a very important principle of Marriage Builders is Plan B. It comes after Plan A. Plan A was not meant to be a way of life for conflict avoiders, but a very short term plan that seque into Plan B. For men, it is 6 months; women 3-4 weeks. Dr. Harley also wrote a compelling article titled "When to Call it Quits" that you might find helpful. It discusses a Marriage Builders approach about what to do when one partner will not engage in the marriage: When to Call It Quits - Part 1
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
2Long, is it an "insult" to point out the obvious? I don't think so.

No, it wouldn't be. But it's not "the obvious", just your shallow interpretation/analysis of the story.

Quote
It might hurt and I can understand how it might hit a sore spot with you; I don't think "fairness" has relevance, though. What is relevant is acceptance of reality.

More relevant is recognition of reality. I don't think you have it here. You certainly should acknowledge that you may not, and respond 2 rprynne accordingly.

Quote
And the truth is that when someone doesn't change; when they have the same problem year after year after year, their inaction reflects the truth of the situation:

Yes, our actions, or inactions, DO reflect what's really going on, but it's quite presumptuous for someone 2 claim that they know what the whole truth is.

Quote
that they don't truly want change.

I believe that this is incorrect. I think newbie posts here belie the fact that even those who appear unable 2 instigate change do nevertheless want change. Why would they post, otherwise?

Quote
Their actions [or lack thereof in this case] bely their words. You can say you want change, but when nothing ever changes, the lack of action demonstrates the truth.

There's still a big "reader's interpretation" step involved in here.

Quote
I can "say" I want to go to Omaha, but if I never bother to get in the car and go there, how credible am I when I express this wish?

Not a strong metaphor. I want 2 go 2 Mars, but I don't think most people would consider me lacking in credibility if I die before ever going through astronaut training.

Quote
I agree that fear is likely the driving paralyzer. Some let it control them, others don't.

I agree, but recognize that, in my case certainly and possibly rprynne's (and many others') as well, fear doesn't work as a paralyzer for long. I haven't been paralyzed for years now. I'm enjoying myself quite famously, in fact.

Quote
But it is always a choice. When we allow fear to dictate our decisions, we are making a choice to not change. We are no longer victims, but volunteers. Everyone here is afraid to make change, 2Long. But some allow that fear to paralyze them into inaction and some don't. The people who truly want change don't let their fear stop them, those who don't want change, use it as an excuse to maintain the status quo.

I'm going 2 try a different approach 2 characterizing what I mean when I say there is no fear, even though the "change" expected by the observers hasn't happened. Here are the lyrics of a song by Peter Gabriel, called "Darkness."

"I'm scared of swimming in the sea
Dark shapes moving under me
Every fear I swallow makes me small
Inconsequential things occur
Alarms are triggered
Memories stir

It's not the way it has to be

I'm afraid of what I do not know
I hate being undermined
I'm afraid I can be devil man
And I'm scared to be divine
Don't mess with me my fuse is short
Beneath this skin these fragments caught

When I allow it to be
There's no control over me
I have my fears
But they do not have me

Walking through the undergrowth, to the house in the woods
The deeper I go, the darker it gets
I peer through the window
Knock at the door
And the monster I was
So afraid of
Lies curled up on the floor
Is curled up on the floor just like a baby boy

I cry until I laugh

I'm afraid of being mothered
With my balls shut in the pen
I'm afraid of loving women
And I'm scared of loving men
Flashbacks coming in every night
Don't tell me everything's alright

When I allow it to be
It has no control over me
I own my fear
So it doesn't own me

Walking through the undergrowth, to the house in the woods
The deeper I go, the darker it gets
I peer through the window
Knock at the door
And the monster I was
So afraid of
Lies curled up on the floor
Is curled up on the floor just like a baby boy

I cry until I laugh"

In this case, the scary house in the woods metaphor, and what he does with facing it and recognizing the baselessness of his fears is more akin 2 what I experienced a few years ago when I realized the fear of change had waned, such that I could evaluate my si2ation without fear as a controlling factor and choose my fu2re accordingly. And I think this happens 2 most everyone within a few years of d-day, even if their WS had a VLTA.

Quote
Your situation is sad, but saying that recovery will take a long time is not an excuse to NEVER even begin recovery. A 10 year Plan A is not "recovery," 2Long, it is conflict avoidance.

You're so far out of lock on my sitch now that it's ridiculous. Where did you get "never?" Where did you get 10 years? Heck, where did you get plan A, even?

Quote
2Long, I want to clarify that you don't have to justify yourself to anyone here. If you want to live like this, that is your prerogative and your choice. But please don't ask others to believe that this is anything more than accepting the status quo or that you really want "change." I don't buy that for a minute. But, it is your life, not mine.

No, it's your imaginary construct. Rprynne, rest assured that what Mel just described bears no resemblance 2 my life, whatsoever.
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
2Long, just so you know, a very important principle of Marriage Builders is Plan B.

As you are well aware, I know all this.

Quote
...It comes after Plan A. Plan A was not meant to be a way of life for conflict avoiders, but a very short term plan that seque into Plan B. For men, it is 6 months; women 3-4 weeks...

As you may have forgotten, SH advised NOT going 2 plan B.

Quote
Dr. Harley also wrote a compelling article titled "When to Call it Quits" that you might find helpful. It discusses a Marriage Builders approach about what to do when one partner will not engage in the marriage: When to Call It Quits - Part 1

I've read that, but not recently. Will check it out again and maybe get back 2 you with my thoughts.

-ol' 2long
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 10:15 PM
Thought of another point.

After the first 2ple of years post d-day, it's no longer fear of losing the WS or the status quo so much as it's the difficulty of severing the attachment. Particularly in cases of long-term marriages.

I distinctly recall wishing my W would just leave. And later, that she'd just left on d-day.

-ol' 2long
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 10:21 PM
Quote
Dr. Harley also wrote a compelling article titled "When to Call it Quits" that you might find helpful. It discusses a Marriage Builders approach about what to do when one partner will not engage in the marriage: When to Call It Quits - Part 1

Oh, THAT!

Dr Harley never answered my question on that thread about ul a few months back. The whole thread is probably gone now, since the boards crashed.

-ol' 2long
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 10:53 PM
Quote
2Long, is it an "insult" to point out the obvious? I don't think so.

No, it wouldn't be. But it's not "the obvious", just your shallow interpretation/analysis of the story.

Spoken by someone who is invested in the status quo, I might point out.

Originally Posted by 2long
[I believe that this is incorrect. I think newbie posts here belie the fact that even those who appear unable 2 instigate change do nevertheless want change. Why would they post, otherwise?

I am not talking about the average newbie, I am talking about those that come here for years on end and talk alot about change, yet have the same problem in 2009 they had when they arrived in 2002, 2005, etc. They talk about change, but nothing ever changes.

It is much like watching a wayward who professes he is committing to the marriage when his actions do not back up his words. Or an alcoholic who swears off drinking but does nothing to ensure he quits. They are in denial. And so is someone who talks alot about change, but never does anything to effectively change.

His talk is cheap, as we so like to say on these forums.

I think its real easy to lose all objectivity about our own situations when we are a) emotionally driven, as we naturally would be about our own situations, and b) very fear driven.

Quote
as well, fear doesn't work as a paralyzer for long. I haven't been paralyzed for years now. I'm enjoying myself quite famously, in fact.

I am cool with that. If you are enjoying your life living with a wife who still contacts her OM and are able to call that "recovery" then good for you. But if you are going to give advice to rprynne, he should know you have been in Plan A for YEARS and your wife is still in contact with her OM. She was in contact in 2002 when you arrived, and still was recently. That is your definition of recovery. It may not be his. And it sure is not Marriage Builders definition.

I don't know why Steve H told you not to go into Plan B at the time, [that is just hearsay anyway] but I do know staying in a marriage where the WW refuses to end contact with her lover is not something MB would advocate. Dr Harley even recommends Plan B when the spouse won't commit to the marriage as indicated in the article I posted.

I hope you do take the time to read his article When to Call it Quits. I think you and rprynne could both benefit greatly from it. And I don't think that is the one you wrote Dr Harley about. My recollection is that it was his Unconditional Love series.


Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 10:57 PM
2Long, let me ask you a sincere question. Would it bother you to see rprynne deal with repeat contacts with the OM for as many years as you have endured with your wife?
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 11:05 PM
Interesting 2uestion, ac2ally.

I suppose it would matter how exactly he deals with the contact.

But I try not 2 let what others do bother me.

-ol' 2long
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 11:11 PM
I may be a newbie, but shouldn't there NOT BE CONTACT OF ANY SORT with the AP???
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 11:30 PM
deleted
Posted By: TogetherAlone Re: Disappointed - 11/18/09 11:41 PM
Quote
...but as you'll see, unless the WS ended the A voluntarily on d-day, there's always contact.

Think it would be more accurate to say 'Even if the WS ended the A voluntarily, there's often contact until the WS becomes convinced that further contact will result in termination of the relationship with the BS. At which point contact will cease, or the relationship with the BS will cease, or the BS will back down and allow contact to continue without penalty."

I go for strict scientific accuracy on these things. cool

TA
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by 2long
...but as you'll see, unless the WS ended the A voluntarily on d-day, there's always contact.

Except when there isn't
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 12:33 AM
It's an interesting debate.

I don't have any fear either way about things. I don't like the way things are, but I don't agree with the assessment that nothing has changed. I don't agree that because I haven't done plan B, or plan D, that I have done nothing.

This is like listening to a sports talk radio show. One caller says nothing has changed with the team because they still haven't won a game. Another caller says that's not correct at all, the team has all new offenses/defenses and even though they keep losing the scores are getting closer and closer. One caller says ownership hasn't taken any action because they haven't fired the coach. Another says of course they have taken action, it's just different than what the public is crying for. One caller says all of this prooves the team likes losing. The other says all of this prooves the team is trying to win, but that it's easier said than done.

Anyway, as always, thanks for the support.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by rprynne
I don't have any fear either way about things. I don't like the way things are, but I don't agree with the assessment that nothing has changed. I don't agree that because I haven't done plan B, or plan D, that I have done nothing.

I know you have done some things. However, the only thing that has changed is some minor background scenary; the basic problem has never changed and here you are on your 4th or 5th false recovery. The affair continues and MT is as uncommitted to the marriage today as she was then. You are no closer to recovery today than you were in 2005. She still has a mindset that puts your marriage way behind her career and her affair. [as demonstrated by the posts of jepetwhatever]

Rprynne, why have you and MT never gone to a Marriage Builders in all this time? That seems to me to be your best hope for recovery, if that is possible. Have you considered that?

Did you read the newsletter titled When to Call it Quits?
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by 2long
karma:

Absolutely!

...but as you'll see, unless the WS ended the A voluntarily on d-day, there's always contact.

-ol' 2long

And why would I or any sensible BS put up with contact? Why would I voluntarily take abuse upon myself? Why would ANYONE?

If contact persists, well, that is what Plan B is for.

The WS must learn that the BS is not their personal doormat.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Rprynne, why have you and MT never gone to a Marriage Builders in all this time? That seems to me to be your best hope for recovery, if that is possible. Have you considered that?

Up until she moved back home, it wouldn't have been worth it. Once she moved back in, we were going to a local MC. In the last year, it hadn't seemed neccessary. Things appeared to be going well.

I have considered going and think my WW would be willing to go.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 02:12 AM
Why was it not necessary? MB is the best way, and besides--with no kids, you have no reason at all to put up with repeated abuse.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by rprynne
I have considered going and think my WW would be willing to go.

I think the next one is in January.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 02:46 AM
If you go you could turn it into a mini-vacation; a nice chance to fulfill some big ENs.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 02:57 AM
{{{{{{{{{{{[rprynne}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 12:50 PM
While i can certainly agree that for me personally i could not stand continued contact with the OW. That would definitely be a deal breaker for me.

I however can say that i too deal with some "wayward tendencies" in my H. And maybe that is living "status quo" as Mel likes to put it.

However I still believe that my H has made changes. Has he made all of them i want him to, no?

I do not believe though that the ONLY way to get change is to Plan B or Plan D, and that it is up to each WS to decide if they are willing to live with their "status quo".

In a lot of cases fear may be a factor as 2long said but there are plenty of factors that go into making that choice for yourself.

And it is each WSs CHOICE as to what they want to live with or not live with. Sure MB gives you lots of tools to make things work better, however you can not make your spouse follow MB and only you can decide if that is good enough for YOU.

You can still use the MB tools to change yourself and how you deal with LBs and AOs and DJs and the WS usually changes too, maybe not as much as you would like and if there is absolutely NO change then that is a different story.

And there is nothing wrong with coming here and getting advice that you maybe can only apply to yourself to see if your change will change them. ANd it is up to the WS and ONLY the WS as to how long they would like to try that.

My life is not horrible, would i like better.... he77 yes..... am i willing to walk away from a 25 year relationship just to SEE if it would be better...... he77 no. I love my H and for now i am willing to live with my "status quo" because my "status quo" is not so bad smile .............
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 01:34 PM
Well sure, SC, it absolutely is a personal choice as to what a BS will put up with...What isn't cool though is for someone who has endured years of continual contact to come alongside someone else and endorse that sort of thing for them ON Marriage Builders...It would be like a woman that had been being beaten by her husband for years dropping by the local women's shelter and advising others to return to their abusive husbands...Seems like a pretty cruel thing to do, imo...

Mrs. W
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 01:40 PM
I do not think rprynne or 2long or myself are endorsing anything, nor do i believe anyone is giving advice to others to do the same.

I know me personally am simply stating that i understand rprynne's POV.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I do not think rprynne or 2long or myself are endorsing anything, nor do i believe anyone is giving advice to others to do the same.

I know me personally am simply stating that i understand rprynne's POV.

SC, I don't think rprynne is as happy with the status quo as you are. In fact, the thread is titled "Disappointed." Like you said, it is up to every person how they choose to live their lives. Some are perfectly content in bad marriages and that is cool. It is their life, after all.

Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 01:50 PM
Okay...Listen when people arrive here and say they are living together without being married, I UNDERSTAND that - Mr. W and I lived together for a year prior to marriage - We have learned from being on MB what a destructive thing that was to do - We would NEVER advise others to do the same thing...It was a BAD PLAN...Why in the world would we wish for others to follow in our footsteps where that was concerned? If we came alongside people here and said "we did it and it worked out in the end" that would sure seem like endorsement, wouldn't it?

Mrs. W
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 01:56 PM
You know i don't know why i bother with the two of you.

My marriage is NOT bad. Only in your opinion!!!!

And i did not tell anyone that it worked out in the end and i am still here trying to learn.

And i did not say rprynne is happy with his current "status quo" or like you said he would not be here posting.

What i said is that the ONLY choice is not Plan B or Plan D and the CHOICE is rprynne's to make not ours and that i understand his POV should he choose not to go either of those routes.

Sorry for the t/j rprynne, i will leave it alone now, it is your thread.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 02:01 PM
You don't bother me at all, SC. smile
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 02:34 PM
deleted
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 02:54 PM
>I think it's time for one of my long hiatuses

Have a lovely Thanksgiving 2Long!

(sorry about the TJ)
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by 2long
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
You know i don't know why i bother with the two of you.

My marriage is NOT bad. Only in your opinion!!!!

This is well stated. Mel's opinion is bad, not the marriage!

There's little 2 be done that will convince black&white folks like Mel that there are areas in between that they simply can't understand. Rather than make the attempt, they'll try 2 label it something "bad" or otherwise unpleasant, and then dismiss the person they've labeled as pathetic and hopeless and not worth listening 2.

Yes, it is my opinion that a marriage where abuse exists is BAD. It is my opinion that a marriage that never recovers from an affair and the WS stays in contact with her OM for 7 years after D-day is BAD. It is my opinion that a marriage described as "in withdrawal" [from each other] and never enters recovery is bad. Some consider that GOOD, and that is ok with me. That is their standard to endure, not mine. That is not what I would consider a good marriage. And it certainly is not Marriage Builder's standard of a recovered marriage.

You can call it whatever you want, 2Long, but that doesn't mean others have to join you. But, you don't need the approval of others.

Quote
Sadly, this has become very much a part of the "MB methods." At least on these forums, it has.

Yes, Marriage Builders does tend to promote good marriages, not bad marriages; that is the point. There are lots of boards that promote bad marriages.

Quote
I suspect that, if rprynne were 2 coach with SH (I have no experience with JHC, and I don't mean the man upstairs) he would not be advised 2 go 2 plan B. I wasn't, neither when I coached with him in 2002 (6 months out of the gate) or 2 years ago. He said, "if you had, you'd simply be divorced now" and he could see clearly that I didn't "need" that, and that my W was worth working with.

You don't know what Steve Harley would say and its preposterous to suggest he doesn't endorse Plan B; that is just a false assertion. But we do know what Dr. Harley would say as evidenced in his articles and newsletters. That is not guessing or hearsay, we have the word from the horse's mouth. So you can "guess" what Steve Harley might or might not do, but we have the actual WORDS from Dr. Harley as outlined in his own articles and newsletters.

Posted By: MrWondering Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by RChillingworth
My WW consistently denies she has feelings for OM, but basically doesn't want to be "mean" to him.

5 years out and OM's "feelings" still matter?

He SHOULD be the guy that almost ruined her life.

He SHOULD be the guy that she almost lost you over and it should break her heart to see, talk or think of him at all.

Even though she made her choices too, she SHOULD despise the guy for the choices HE made which necessarily enabled her to head down into that dark cesspool of a "relationship".

She should NOT have any desire or inclination to share ANYTHING about her life or his life with him.

He was NOT a love lost but a turd one buries and RUNS away from holding one's nose.


Will she EVER get to that point or will he forever remain in the living in the backwoods of her mind as a significant person in her [remaining] life?

I forget if you told us you ever intend to have children or not but if you do can you imagine yourself having to have your own kid DNA tested just so you can be sure he/she is yours? That MAY be what this is coming to.

You're a bright, intelligent, educated, employed guy. I would consider you a friend. You deserve better than this. FIVE YEARS. You got to MB the same time I did. I'm NOT telling you to divorce/separate/Plan B...but you NEED a plan of some sort - a RIGID plan to rebuild your marriage the right way (MB and firm boundaries) or divorce/separation....

YOUR CALL.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Because you've invested five years of your life into making this work you WANT those five years to mean something otherwise they become "wasted" years. Your "resentment" bank is surely building...how "worth it" is she going to have to make it? What about the next five years? This is where the rubber MUST meet the road otherwise your patience becomes your own prison.


Posted By: Pepperband Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 04:20 PM
Who is

RChillingworth

??????????????
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 04:24 PM
Oh, I get it.
The Scarlet Letter
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 05:32 PM
deleted
Posted By: black_raven Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 05:40 PM
Sorry you are feeling down rprynne. hug

For no other reason then WW's continued contact with OM, I don't think she is trying or on board with recovery. You are going to stay on spin cycle forever if she can't even hold up NC...the rest is all fluff.


Posted By: karmasrose Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 05:59 PM
B_r, don't you know this is opposite land?

Contact with OP is fine! Dandy! Perfectly normal! They just have to put up with it or they might LOSE their precious (demented) WS!

puke
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by 2long
Okay, I'll call your hypothetical marriage bull feathers! And yes, I don't need any validation of your construct, as it isn't real.

Of course you don't. Like I said, you don't need my approval or that of anyone elses. I am just going by what you post here and on other forums about your wife's continued contact with the OM [7 years past D-Day and still no end in sight] and that you and your wife are in a state of withdrawal and you have just accepted that. I hope you aren't trying to sell that deal to rprynne. frown

Quote
So you're suggesting that Dr and Mr Harley might have different opinions? And if they do (they do, at times), that only Dr Harley's articles are valid?

Yes, Dr. Harley is the one who establishes Marriage Builders principles and his view on plan B is well known on this forum through his books and articles. What Steve told you applied to your specific situation, not someone elses. [and it is just hearsay] And that was 2 years ago, btw. He routinely recommends Plan B to his clients [I know of 3 or 4 right now] so it is disingenuous to suggest that Steve does not advocate Plan B.

Plan B is a Marriage Builders construct, 2Long. You may not like it, because it interferes wtih your mission of maintaining a marriage at all costs, but Plan B is a tried and true Marriage Builders concept. In fact, if you would read the article "When to Call it Quits" you would see that Dr Harley recommends plan B to a woman whose spouse will not engage in the marriage. There is not even an affair.

However, why would you even consider going into Plan B in the first place since, according to you, you are perfectly content with the status quo? Why would you even be calling Steve in the first place if that is the case?

That being said, Dr Harley's advice is given to a woman who DOES NOT WANT to stay in a loveless marriage where the spouses are withdrawn from each other. You don't seem to mind that, so it wouldn't be applicable.

I am not sure that rprynne is willing to endure the status quo like you, 2long, because he appears to be very "disappointed" about the state of his marriage. I hope we can help him change that.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
Why was it not necessary? MB is the best way, and besides--with no kids, you have no reason at all to put up with repeated abuse.

I said seemed neccessary in reference to going to a MB weekend. My WW and I discussed whether we would do something like the weekend, or continue with our current MC. We continued with the current MC. After we stopped that, things appeared to be going well. It's not like this recent event was going on the whole time (at least to the best of my knowledge). There was a good 7 months in there where the WW was doing well.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 06:49 PM
During this 7 months was she in contact?
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
{{{{{{{{{{{[rprynne}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Thanks!
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Sorry for the t/j rprynne, i will leave it alone now, it is your thread.

I don't mind t/j's.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by 2long
I suspect that, if rprynne were 2 coach with SH (I have no experience with JHC, and I don't mean the man upstairs) he would not be advised 2 go 2 plan B. I wasn't, neither when I coached with him in 2002 (6 months out of the gate) or 2 years ago. He said, "if you had, you'd simply be divorced now" and he could see clearly that I didn't "need" that, and that my W was worth working with.

I did coaching with SH. He was basically stumped with my WW. He advised me to not go to plan B. He said plan D was the only option and that I should do that when I felt like it.

I once specifically asked him about how frustrated people here (on these boards) get with that advice. He responded that it does not surprise him because the people here are not as familiar with my marital history.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 07:00 PM
We are familiar enough to know that you are not supposed to put up with contact with the OP.
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 07:00 PM
**edit**
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
I did coaching with SH. He was basically stumped with my WW. He advised me to not go to plan B. He said plan D was the only option and that I should do that when I felt like it.

I can see why he would advise to go to Plan D after all you have been though, if anything. Why not try the Marriage Builders weekend, rprynne, and see if Dr Harley can get through the fog? If it is a matter of an addiction preventing her engagement in the marriage, Dr Harley would be able to detect it. Did you know he once managed treatment centers?
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 07:04 PM
>that I should do that when I felt like it.


And there it is.

When YOU feel like it, Rprynne...

Now the question is, what do you feel like doing?

Maybe it's time for a personal inventory and goal setting for yourself.
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 07:06 PM
Yes, please. We would like to help you but we need to know what you feel like doing, what you PLAN to do.
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 07:24 PM
deleted
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 07:37 PM
ok, rprynne, I found it posted in the main page. The next one is:

The Marriage Builders� Weekend
January 29th & 30th,2010

I suspect it will be in Minneapolis again. The Mall of America is there!

Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
My WW consistently denies she has feelings for OM, but basically doesn't want to be "mean" to him.

Mr. W, you'd have to know my WW to understand this. This is not in defense of her actions, but it is the way she is. I have learned that my WW talking, helping, doing something for, or calling back is no indication of her feelings for them.

Originally Posted by MrWondering
Will she EVER get to that point or will he forever remain in the living in the backwoods of her mind as a significant person in her remaining life?

Yes. But, I have concerns that because of the way the A started, the type of person OM is, and the above that we will never be able to make our M "safe". That weighs on my decisions about things.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Oh, I get it.
The Scarlet Letter

Yeah, you got it.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
B_r, don't you know this is opposite land?

Contact with OP is fine! Dandy! Perfectly normal! They just have to put up with it or they might LOSE their precious (demented) WS!

puke

I don't think contact is fine. I think the point that 2long was making is sometimes WS don't go NC right away, or they do, but later resume contact.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
During this 7 months was she in contact?

No.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by MrWondering
My WW consistently denies she has feelings for OM, but basically doesn't want to be "mean" to him.

Mr. W, you'd have to know my WW to understand this. This is not in defense of her actions, but it is the way she is. I have learned that my WW talking, helping, doing something for, or calling back is no indication of her feelings for them.

Ah, but it is a clear indication of her LACK of feelings for you. Either that or you are merely an obstacle to her sainthood. She is NOT a nice person right now. She hasn't been for 5 years now. She CAN change...but she has CHOOSEN not to.


Originally Posted by MrWondering
Will she EVER get to that point or will he forever remain in the living in the backwoods of her mind as a significant person in her remaining life?

Yes. But, I have concerns that because of the way the A started, the type of person OM is, and the above that we will never be able to make our M "safe". That weighs on my decisions about things.

You've been "weighing" this all for an aweful long time...2long even [haha]. Unlike ole 2long (whom I believe just suffered/endured another breach of no contact in September or so of this year ... 7 years after d-day)...you don't have NEAR the enmeshment to bear this. You don't have to settle for mediocrity. You've got a relatively short marriage, no kids, etc. In fact, remember the poster Heartsore? He's divorced, happily remarried and, I think, expecting a child with his new wife soon all WITHIN these last five years you've been here. At this point, an OK marriage just isn't worth it. Waiting any longer isn't worth it...the risk of resentment is just too much. I think having kids with your wife is likely too risky as well as marriage gets HARDER at that point and she can't even handle it now when it's just the two of you. I so want you to be a success story here. Mortarman took YEARS to recover his marriage too, I haven't gotten an update lately) but last I heard he's doing well (but he also had 3 kids with his WW so a lot more was at stake). If you want to give her one last chance...that's your perogative, but make it/require it to be one darn good effort on her part. RAISE THE BAR...don't lower it so she can merely begrudgingly skip over it. YOU MATTER.

I wanted to add...of course, divorce doesn't guarantee happiness either. But at some point you've got to determine that the likihood is BETTER taking that route. She doesn't seem to REALLY care about you and she's demonstrated that time and time again. People CAN change...but only THEY can do it...she should be strongly, dare I say, AGGRESSIVELY encouraged to head down the "change" path post haste.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
>that I should do that when I felt like it.


And there it is.

When YOU feel like it, Rprynne...

Now the question is, what do you feel like doing?

Maybe it's time for a personal inventory and goal setting for yourself.

Working on it.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by karmasrose
Yes, please. We would like to help you but we need to know what you feel like doing, what you PLAN to do.

Well, what I feel like doing is giving her one more chance. But to be blunt, I'm not so sure that is the right thing to do.

I'm at a total loss as to what a plan for giving her one more chance looks like. Requiring the MB weekend is probably a good start.

She got rid of the cell phone. She sent a NC letter to OM. Told him if he did contact her again she would seek a restraining order. She copied me on e-mails to the people she's consulting for asking the IT department to block OM's e-mail address and telling the secrataries not to give out her number to OM (or anyone) and not to connect his calls. The consulting job is over this week. I verified the OM's address, so it should have gotten to him.

Aside from that, I'm not sure what else to require at this time. Other than your basic concepts.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 09:22 PM
In understand your points MrW
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 09:41 PM
All the discussion aside, my gut just doesn't feel right about any of this.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
All the discussion aside, my gut just doesn't feel right about any of this.


What is WW's demeanor towards you at this time?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/19/09 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
All the discussion aside, my gut just doesn't feel right about any of this.

What are you sensing?
Posted By: black_raven Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by rprynne
All the discussion aside, my gut just doesn't feel right about any of this.

Any of what? B, D or R? dontknow
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by rprynne
All the discussion aside, my gut just doesn't feel right about any of this.


What is WW's demeanor towards you at this time?

Apologetic and remorseful.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 01:36 AM
Folks,

I will say that I know 2Long personally. We have had many discussions over the years about many things including the status of his marriage. I have read his comments and frankly he is NOT advocating anything but what Kimmy quoted. You do what you need to do "when you feel like it." Read the quote below.
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
>that I should do that when I felt like it.


And there it is.

When YOU feel like it, Rprynne...

Now the question is, what do you feel like doing?

Maybe it's time for a personal inventory and goal setting for yourself.

2Long is in fact espousing just that and telling him it is not bad to take his time to make this decision. 2Long did not say he was happy with his marriage, he said he was happy with his life on the whole. He has never claimed he found what has gone on to his liking, but rather the consequences of ending were even less to his liking and why hurry if there is no one on the horizon.

Mel, I know you don't care for 2Long, but you need to actually listen to the man, he is NOT against MB or the plans here. He was simply explaining his choices based on advice given to him and RP by one of the very best marriage counselors in the country, Steve Harley. So you can argue dogma all you want, but you cannot argue away the advice given by Steve Harley.

Now if you want to argue with me, have a nice day. I am a strong believer in the MB approach and have been here a long time, learning many things. I am a reasonably bright man, and I still find I learn new things on this site even now. Are you learning anything new? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by rprynne
All the discussion aside, my gut just doesn't feel right about any of this.

What are you sensing?

That deep down her goal is to convince me to decide we are just not compatible. Not so she can see OM or anything like that, but just so I'll divorce her and leave the M feeling like we tried.

The comments about what she posted here make me feel that way. She never mentioned anything like that to me. She's been told by any and everyone that she's got to bring that stuff up. So much so, that it is impossible to conclude that she doesn't get that.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 02:04 AM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by rprynne
All the discussion aside, my gut just doesn't feel right about any of this.

Any of what? B, D or R? dontknow

The latest developments with my WW.
Posted By: cate1982 Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 02:07 AM
I haven't read this thread in it's entirety, but what I have read leads me to believe that she is still actively in A with the OM. Ans has convinced herself that you and she are just not "compatible" and THAT'S the reason the M won't ever work- not the A with the OM.....

Which is backwards logic. Are you sure she isn't currently seeing the OM behind your back?
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by cate1982
I haven't read this thread in it's entirety, but what I have read leads me to believe that she is still actively in A with the OM. Ans has convinced herself that you and she are just not "compatible" and THAT'S the reason the M won't ever work- not the A with the OM.....

Which is backwards logic. Are you sure she isn't currently seeing the OM behind your back?

Well, you can never be 100% sure of anything. But yeah, I'm pretty sure this is not a continuous thing. I won't say that I've caught everything since d-day, but one thing I have learned in all of this is that unless you put the blinders on, they can't keep it secret for long.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
2Long is in fact espousing just that and telling him it is not bad to take his time to make this decision. 2Long did not say he was happy with his marriage, he said he was happy with his life on the whole. He has never claimed he found what has gone on to his liking, but rather the consequences of ending were even less to his liking and why hurry if there is no one on the horizon.

JL, with all due respect, the way 2Long chooses to live his life is his own business, but when it comes to encouraging others along his path of inaction, of defending the status quo year after year, its very important for the receiver of that advice to understand his frame of mind.

If he makes no apologies for tolerating the true fact that his WW is still in touch with her OM 7 years after D-Day and that his idea of recovery is living in a state of "withdrawal" then others should know that. [his explanation is this is just a "long recovery" because this was a LTA - of course long means never when contact never ends because recovery never starts] I see no reason why he would take umbrage at this being pointed out unless he is embarrassed by the truth. If there is nothing wrong with living like that, as he says there is NOT, then there is no reason to have a melt down when it is pointed out.

I have no idea what SH told 2Long 2 years ago when he counseled with him a few times; that is just hearsay, but I know very well what Dr. Harley, the best marriage counselor in the US, the founder of Marriage Builders, and the trainer of Steve Harley, does say. I know what his idea of a good marriage is and I know he doesn't believe it can be found in enabling a wayward spouse for years on end. I don't believe for a second that this is Steve's idea of "recovery" either.

Nor do I think that is the solution rprynne seeks given his expression of sorrow and disappointment.

Quote
I am a reasonably bright man, and I still find I learn new things on this site even now. Are you learning anything new? I hope so.

Yes, I do. And that is why I have a great marriage today. The proof is in the pudding. I learn more and more each year I am on this board. Have you ever asked 2Long this question? Has he learned anything new here?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by rprynne
The comments about what she posted here make me feel that way. She never mentioned anything like that to me. She's been told by any and everyone that she's got to bring that stuff up. So much so, that it is impossible to conclude that she doesn't get that.

Are you saying that she doesn't want to be married and just doesn't want to say it? Is she posting here?

rprynne, the question I would ask is if YOU want to remain married? What do you want to do with your life? Will she openly and honestly commit to repairing the marriage? Is she doing enough to keep you in the marriage?

Did you check out the article I linked earlier about When to Call it Quits?

Quote
The concept of unconditional love in marriage usually refers to a spouse�s lifelong commitment to care for the other spouse regardless of what the other spouse does. I�m in favor of a lifelong commitment to care regardless of unfavorable circumstances (health problems, financial setbacks, and other factors outside a couple�s control that can negatively impact a marriage). But I�m opposed to a lifelong commitment to care for a spouse when that spouse makes marriage-wrecking choices. It tends to give such people unrealistic expectations of entitlement�that they should be cared for, regardless of their willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize many marriages based on unconditional love.
When to Call it Quits
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 04:12 AM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
2Long did not say he was happy with his marriage, he said he was happy with his life on the whole.

Hi JL! This is the truth. I'm quite satisfied with my life. My life doesn't depend on temporary, or forced things like met needs. My happiness comes from within. I can assure you and everyone else here that I can't be destroyed again like I felt I was on d-day, because of what I've learned. Here, a handful of other forums, and from some very close friends, including yourself, that I've made on them over the years. I wouldn't trade my past for anything, though I won't EVER put up with an affair again - and I'm far more savvy 2 the signs than I was before d-day. I am grateful for the hand I've been dealt. It's made me stronger and wiser.

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He has never claimed he found what has gone on to his liking, but rather the consequences of ending were even less to his liking and why hurry if there is no one on the horizon

Not only no one on the horizon (I'm assuming you're talking about my horizon, but you might be referring 2 my W's) but no threats I can't handle, either.

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Mel, I know you don't care for 2Long, but you need to actually listen to the man, he is NOT against MB or the plans here. He was simply explaining his choices based on advice given to him and RP by one of the very best marriage counselors in the country, Steve Harley. So you can argue dogma all you want, but you cannot argue away the advice given by Steve Harley.

Thanks for trying, JL. Really. It won't make a difference. ***edit****
rprynne: A friend of mine suggested I come back here and see if you want my help. Do you? I'll respect your answer, and conduct myself accordingly.

-ol' 2long
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 04:30 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
JL, with all due respect, the way 2Long chooses to live his life is his own business, but when it comes to encouraging others along his path of inaction, of defending the status quo year after year, its very important for the receiver of that advice to understand his frame of mind.

This quote is about anything but "all due respect." It's all about assumptions and labels. It's also WRONG. And you're misinforming rprynne by using your misinterpretation of my recovery as an example of what you call a "bad marriage." You understand nothing about my frame of mind.

Quote
I see no reason why he would take umbrage at this being pointed out unless he is embarrassed by the truth. If there is nothing wrong with living like that, as he says there is NOT, then there is no reason to have a melt down when it is pointed out.

I "take umbrage" because you are WRONG, and you can't accept that "true fact." I take umbrage because you are slandering me 2 people here and have no qualms about doing so.

I haven't melted down, though.

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I have no idea what SH told 2Long 2 years ago when he counseled with him a few times;

This is correct, you don't. So why do you keep making your assumptions?

Quote
but I know very well what Dr. Harley, the best marriage counselor in the US,

Does he ac2ally do counseling or coaching anymore?

Quote
the founder of Marriage Builders, and the trainer of Steve Harley, does say. I know what his idea of a good marriage is and I know he doesn't believe it can be found in enabling a wayward spouse for years on end. I don't believe for a second that this is Steve's idea of "recovery" either.

I'm sure all that's true. Except for the part about enabling.

-ol' 2long
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 04:33 AM
[[[[yawn]]]]
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 05:14 AM
How is putting up with WS's contact with OM/OW NOT enabling?

You keep handing the druggie meth and wonder why she's beating the ****edit**** out of you.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 07:37 AM
Mel,

Just a few comments and then I am going to leave this. It is truly rp's choice as to what he wants to listen to, how he evaluates what he hears, and what fits with his few of his marriage.

Personally, I wish that his marriage could be saved and he be a happy man. If I could offer him advice that would lead to that I would. He has tried the plans, she gave up the affair and came home. She has made contact again. He has some decisions to make, but they are not binary decisions. What 2L was saying was that there are other choices that "might" suit his situation depending on what it is.

You said
Quote
JL, with all due respect, the way 2Long chooses to live his life is his own business, but when it comes to encouraging others along his path of inaction, of defending the status quo year after year, its very important for the receiver of that advice to understand his frame of mind.

Inaction??? You just wish you had the money and time he spent on counseling and trying to get his W to end her affair, which apparently she sort of has. But, here is the point and actually the point of MB. Harley's number 1 reason for starting this was not to save every marriage, it was the belief that if people did not act hastily, if they tried his plans, and gave it time, many (not all) marriages could be saved and yes improved. Ask him if I have misstated this. However, if my memory serves he states that in at least one article on this site.

2L did that, but he did more. He took action reevaluated his life, decided what he wanted, how he wanted it, and what he could live with and then DID IT! That Mel is taking action. Not the one you would recommend, perhaps not even the one I would recommend, but it was definitely action from trying to save his marriage with the plans, to counseling with the Harleys, and counseling with other counselors. What he arrived at was an accomodation that suits him. His advice to RP?? Figure what suits you and then do it. Is that anti_MB? No it is not, actually it is very much inline with the reason Harley started this site and his own counseling.

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If he makes no apologies for tolerating the true fact that his WW is still in touch with her OM 7 years after D-Day and that his idea of recovery is living in a state of "withdrawal" then others should know that.
I think he has stated this fact clearly. It suits him to continue to see small improvements, while withdrawn for the most part. It suits him to keep his finacial situation as it is. It suits him to do very interesting work, have interesting friends, live in his house, do things with his family and friends, and have interesting hobbies.

I don't think he came here asking for any sympathy. He simply suggested to RP that RP figure out what suits him, knowing that RP is aware of Plan A, plan B, and certainly plan D. He is saying D is not necessarily where he has to go if it does not suit him, but he will have to take action and do the work to make anything else acceptable to him. RP's call.

So can we get back to talking to RP now? I would like that very much.

RP, I apologize. You are being give a wide range of ideas, options, and approaches. You are going to have to figure out what suits you.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by Just Learning
I think he has stated this fact clearly. It suits him to continue to see small improvements, while withdrawn for the most part. It suits him to keep his finacial situation as it is. It suits him to do very interesting work, have interesting friends, live in his house, do things with his family and friends, and have interesting hobbies.
JL

JL, I am not going to belabor this because this thread is about rprynne, not 2Long, but be assured I have no issue with the way he chooses to live. I have said all along that it is his life to live. But it is not a tenant of Marriage Builders to endure a spouse who is still in contact with her OM 7 years past D-Day. For all the "action" he took, he is still in the same place; spinning his wheels. That IS maintaining the status quo. So when he tells someone not to "act hastily" and puts down others here for encouraging rprynne to take action, this is going to be pointed out. I challenged his view point and pointed out that his marriage has not even begun recovery; he doesn't like it. Tough.

Anyway, that is all I have to say on it. My apologies to RP for the threadjack. Hopefully we can get back to the issue at hand.
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 02:16 PM
Quote
That deep down her goal is to convince me to decide we are just not compatible. Not so she can see OM or anything like that, but just so I'll divorce her and leave the M feeling like we tried.


Having seen my own husband try to do this when he was wayward, I can totally identify with this.

I'm so sorry R.

IMO that is a lazy, lazy attitude. It's "I'll make like I'm doing the work, but I'm actually half azzing it till you give up." And it $ucks rocks, imo.

From what I've learned, YOU cannot change her mind or her actions. She will have to want to. That she hasn't womaned up yet is very scary.

(((((((R)))))))
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Are you saying that she doesn't want to be married and just doesn't want to say it? Is she posting here?

No, she is not posting now. Yes, that is close to what I'm saying. Maybe a bit more like divorce is just a such a viable option to her.

It's like her quiting smoking. She has quit several times, but I always get the sense that resuming smoking is her "backup plan." So as soon as the not smoking starts to get difficult, she starts up again. She would view that is she tried to quit smoking. I view it as not trying. (meaning, how can one claim they tried, when the first time they really wanted a smoke they smoked). It's like her goal is to proove she tried to quit, but not neccessarily to actually quit.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
rprynne, the question I would ask is if YOU want to remain married? What do you want to do with your life? Will she openly and honestly commit to repairing the marriage? Is she doing enough to keep you in the marriage?

That's a big list of questions. Yes, I want to remain married, but not in a marriage like this. With my life, I'd like to work, have a family and one day retire. I don't know if she will committ to repairing. Much like I'm saying above, she will committ to prooving she has tried what is required to repair the M. Yes, she does enough to keep me in the M, when she is in this mode, but ultimately she quits doing it and then it's not enough.

I know that doesn't make a lot of sense. But it's like once I asked you what made you change your approach to M and you answered it was sort of a leap of faith.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Did you check out the article I linked earlier about When to Call it Quits?

Yes, I did.

Originally Posted by 2long
rprynne: A friend of mine suggested I come back here and see if you want my help. Do you? I'll respect your answer, and conduct myself accordingly.

Of course. I want everybody's input. I can handle contradictory opinions, and I did not take your post as advocating any specific course of action other than to do what I think is best for me.

I actually prefer the debate. As it helps me clarify my thoughts.

2long, I understand your POV. My question to you is how long are you willing to wait for her to never have contact with OM. For me, I am clearly a ticking time bomb. As MrW rightfully pointed out, resentment is building. (At times, I'm not even sure if that can be undone). It's not that the other parts of my life are unsatisfactory, but I do clearly believe that I have not lived a full life.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
RP, I apologize. You are being give a wide range of ideas, options, and approaches. You are going to have to figure out what suits you.

No need to apologize.

JL, Mel, 2Long, MrW, SC, Pep and others. Look, clearly I'm confused right now. What helps unconfuse me is your opinions. You are the only people I have to talk to about this stuff. I don't know if there's anymore to be said or not. I'll have to process things and decide what I want to do. I know that can be frustrating to people who feel like it's obvious what I should do and clearly just want what's best for me.
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 03:00 PM
***edit***

Kimmy:

I think all WSs do what rp described. What I'm trying 2 get at is that she may get 2 a point where she realizes that this goal of hers won't give her the absolution that she currently imagines it will. But it is a realization that only she can make.

Hopefully, that won't take so long that rp has lost interested in recovery long before, but it might.

-ol' 2long
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 03:07 PM
>But it is a realization that only she can make.


Exactly.

Only RP can decide how much longer he can wait for that to happen and if that waiting coincides with HIS life's goals.
Posted By: black_raven Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
Look, clearly I'm confused right now.

IMO you sound more afraid and wishful than confused.

Hugs and prayers to you ryprynne...none of this is easy.
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 03:37 PM
rprynne:

Quote
I actually prefer the debate. As it helps me clarify my thoughts.

And I enjoy a good debate, but that wasn't going on here.

Quote
2long, I understand your POV. My question to you is how long are you willing to wait for her to never have contact with OM. For me, I am clearly a ticking time bomb.

It's concepts like this that I'm trying 2 get at, here. How long am I willing? A bit longer, probably. But the bomb is definitely ticking. Last contact I'm aware of was a birthday wish email (hb in subject line, no content in email) a 2ple months ago. Bigger, more significant contact was in March. She didn't know I knew what was said then, but RM had tried 2 entice her in2 resuming the A, and she tore him a new one.

The significance of these steps is she never did anything like this before, and she did it all without my knowledge, so far as she knew. I could have TOLD her that this is what I needed (I've done so many times in the past 7 years), but even if she complied, I'd forever wonder whether she would give in 2 temptation because it wasn't her decision 2 begin with 2 end it. And, of course it's easy as pie for someone who wants 2, 2 go underground even deeper (requiring the BS 2 hone their ability 2 sense when things aren't right).


Quote
As MrW rightfully pointed out, resentment is building. (At times, I'm not even sure if that can be undone).

Resentment for me has come and gone, like the rollercoaster ups and downs after d-day. But it's not gone, and I know why you're concerned. It continues 2 be an exercise where I consider what I've done (for example, am I satisfied I've done all I can do?), and how our family life is going (e.g., is what I know of what she's doing enough, and is there progress?). But I think resentment can be undone, if you do all you can. It may or may not require plan D, though.

Quote
It's not that the other parts of my life are unsatisfactory, but I do clearly believe that I have not lived a full life.

Here's where I am reminded of something I said 2 my W shortly after d-day: "If I'd known about the A within a year or 2 of it first starting, I could have started over with a new family by now" 2 which she responded "I know" (with deep furrows of concern on her forehead).

I was only 38 at the time, but we already had 2 kids. If we had no kids, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't be married 2 her now.

I honestly both envy, and don't envy your current position. Because I don't see this as so simple, because you'd tried 2 start a family and she lost the child, and THAT experience and her inappropriate reaction 2 it has 2 be dealt with by someone (her certainly, but you 2).

And I do recall many times where I've contemplated life alone, like WAT and I talked about when I met him and his new SO for dinner a 2ple years ago, that I've done so with a sort of goosebumpy eagerness, rather than trepidation.

-ol' 2long
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 04:05 PM
I don't pretend to know the answers that will make the path you need to take obvious and clear for you. The fork in the road where you stand has no easy choice.

HOW you chose is really the more important thing, I think. More important than which path.

I hope that if I keep asking questions, you'll come up with the choice/path for yourself.

Having said that, this popped out at me:

Quote
It's like her quiting smoking. She has quit several times, but I always get the sense that resuming smoking is her "backup plan."

... like she is "renting" becoming a non-smoker. She'd check into a "non-smoking" hotel room, but won't commit to a non-smoking home.

KWIM?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 04:20 PM

Quote
I know that can be frustrating to people who feel like it's obvious what I should do and clearly just want what's best for me.

Yeah, coaching the Super Bowl from the comfort of our couch is fun.

I'm not frustrated with you. I have empathy for you.

Yesterday, my H said something to the effect that he felt he was being "assaulted" when a situation occurred between us that involved our adult son. Honestly, this is the BIGGEST area of conflict in our marriage at this time. I was taken aback with his choice of word, "assault". Later, after we had resolved the situation, I told him that he might have felt "assaulted" but when in comparison to a wife actually assaulting the marriage, your situation (I gave a brief explanation), I felt H's choice of words was too strong.

It's often a matter of perspective.

Posted By: mindshare Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Dealan-de
>

Only RP can decide how much longer he can wait for that to happen and if that waiting coincides with HIS life's goals.


Agree with Kimmy. Only you can decide RP. It's an incredibly hard thing to do.

I know you have thought of this but I'll throw it into the mix here. You aren't getting any younger RP! I'm the same age as you so I feel safe saying that. The proverbial 'biological clock' is ticking. If you want to have a family I really think that you need to make some life decisions reasonably soon. You would be hard pressed to go another 5 years before deciding it worn't work with WW. At 40, you are realistically going to date women that are in their mid 30's and older (not a guideline set in stone of course, but you know what I mean). Many of them will be getting to the end of their safe child-bearing years soon. Of course, there is always adoption, etc. But, if you want to have biological children it's definitely something to throw into your timeline for making a decision with regards to WW.

Like I said, I'm sure this is already a variable that is part of the life equation you are trying to solve. Sometimes I just hate math!!!

Best of luck to you in your very difficult situation.

Mindshare
Posted By: catperson Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 05:11 PM
Quote
She would view that is she tried to quit smoking. I view it as not trying. (meaning, how can one claim they tried, when the first time they really wanted a smoke they smoked). It's like her goal is to proove she tried to quit, but not neccessarily to actually quit.
I want to point out something I think hasn't really been addressed.

What you describe here is a very very deep personality trait. That of 'going through the motions and if it works, great, if it doesn't, look for something else that's not as hard and see if I can get that to work.'

Instead of what others would do: 'decide what I'm going to accomplish and do whatever it takes to accomplish it.'

It is a sign of weakness in many people, who somehow develop the characteristic of least resistance.

So, I would ask, what exactly is your attraction to her? Is it strong enough that you can handle supporting such a person for the rest of your life? Because that's what it will be. She'll move from one 'too hard' to another.

If you love her enough to overlook it, and make up the difference, fine. If you don't, this would be a good time to cut your losses.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
That's a big list of questions. Yes, I want to remain married, but not in a marriage like this. With my life, I'd like to work, have a family and one day retire. I don't know if she will committ to repairing. Much like I'm saying above, she will committ to prooving she has tried what is required to repair the M. Yes, she does enough to keep me in the M, when she is in this mode, but ultimately she quits doing it and then it's not enough.

I know that doesn't make a lot of sense. But it's like once I asked you what made you change your approach to M and you answered it was sort of a leap of faith.

No, it does make perfect sense and I would agree with your assessment. This is exactly what I thought when I posted to her a couple a months ago. Her committment was not to the marriage, but to her independent lifestyle. Like you said, she does enough to get by and when that doesn't produce immediate results, she gives up. She brings the body for a short while and when the mind doesn't follow right away she gives up. Of course the solution is keep trying long enough for change to occur.

This is why I think you should give Dr. Harley a try. He will root out this tactic rather quickly, I predict. They will speak to her directly. And if he believes there is no hope, he will tell you so you aren't wasting your time anymore. If you enroll in that program, they assign you a coach, either Sandy or Kim and then you have access to Dr Harley every day on the weekend forum so it is consistent coverage with WEEKLY GOALS and weekly followup. This can't fall through the cracks anymore.

And yes, Dr Harley does still counsel in addition to overseeing Steve and Jennifer's cases. He is active every day on the weekend board and with MB clients. [right now he has his hands full with otter. Better him than us! grin]
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 11/20/09 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by 2long
I was only 38 at the time, but we already had 2 kids. If we had no kids, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't be married 2 her now.

I feel like if we had kids, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be married right now. Of course, I'm sure it changes when you actually have kids.

I do know what you mean.

Originally Posted by Pepperband
I hope that if I keep asking questions, you'll come up with the choice/path for yourself.

I know. And just so you know, while I may not always post an answer, I do always ask myself the question.

Originally Posted by cateperson
What you describe here is a very very deep personality trait. That of 'going through the motions and if it works, great, if it doesn't, look for something else that's not as hard and see if I can get that to work.'

Instead of what others would do: 'decide what I'm going to accomplish and do whatever it takes to accomplish it.'

Yes, this is very spot on.

Originally Posted by catperson
So, I would ask, what exactly is your attraction to her? Is it strong enough that you can handle supporting such a person for the rest of your life? Because that's what it will be. She'll move from one 'too hard' to another.

If you love her enough to overlook it, and make up the difference, fine. If you don't, this would be a good time to cut your losses.

I don't know if it's about love or overlooking. I guess it's about the nature and magnitude of how this issue manifests itself. If this is a downward trend, then no, I won't be willing to make up the difference.

I'll try to explain it like this. Soon after we married I realized my WW would lie to me. It was about little stuff. "Honey did you mail that payment?" She said yes, when she hadn't then mail it the next day. Now, I know this is not good and a M shouldn't be that way, but if that was her coping mechanism and as long as the payment did get mailed, no big deal. But then, it got to where the payment wasn't getting mailed at all. And then it wasn't lies about little stuff, but big stuff, i.e. living with someone else. So when you ask, am I willing to make up the difference. Yeah, I can be happy even if my wife lies to me occassionally about little stuff. But I can't if lying becomes the solution to everything.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
No, it does make perfect sense and I would agree with your assessment. This is exactly what I thought when I posted to her a couple a months ago. Her committment was not to the marriage, but to her independent lifestyle. Like you said, she does enough to get by and when that doesn't produce immediate results, she gives up. She brings the body for a short while and when the mind doesn't follow right away she gives up. Of course the solution is keep trying long enough for change to occur.

Yes. Correct. But I would change it a bit in that it's not that she is committed to either one (the independent lifestyle or the marriage). She's committed to the "squeaky wheel", so to speak. That helps.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
This is why I think you should give Dr. Harley a try. He will root out this tactic rather quickly, I predict. They will speak to her directly. And if he believes there is no hope, he will tell you so you aren't wasting your time anymore. If you enroll in that program, they assign you a coach, either Sandy or Kim and then you have access to Dr Harley every day on the weekend forum so it is consistent coverage with WEEKLY GOALS and weekly followup. This can't fall through the cracks anymore.

I think you are right. You've been to a weekend? I may ask you some questions about it.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your help. I'm off for a weeklong vacation.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Disappointed - 11/21/09 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by rprynne
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
This is why I think you should give Dr. Harley a try. He will root out this tactic rather quickly, I predict. They will speak to her directly. And if he believes there is no hope, he will tell you so you aren't wasting your time anymore. If you enroll in that program, they assign you a coach, either Sandy or Kim and then you have access to Dr Harley every day on the weekend forum so it is consistent coverage with WEEKLY GOALS and weekly followup. This can't fall through the cracks anymore.

I think you are right. You've been to a weekend? I may ask you some questions about it.

Please do. We went to the weekend in Florida back in 2007. What surprised me is how much value we got out of it even after being here for years. Dr Harley just has an amazing, uncanny ability to cut through the crap and get to the crux of the problem. Feel free to ask me anything about it. Some of the very best marriages here are that way as a result of the weekend.

Quote
Anyway, thanks everyone for your help. I'm off for a weeklong vacation.

Have a great weekend, friend! smile
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Disappointed - 12/01/09 05:16 PM
rprynne hope you had a wonderful vacation and holiday.

How are things?
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 12/01/09 05:47 PM
Hi SC,

I had a pretty good vacation, although my Grandmother was in the hospital the whole time, so that put a bit of a damper on things.

On the M front, things are going okay, I guess. I'm personally still in this limbo land between just ending my M or giving my WW another chance. There is a strong part of me that just feels like I'm in in this silly stage like you see in the movies where the person loves their spouse and the spouse keeps saying I'll do better, give me another chance, but they just have to say no. Where you believe they are sincere and really mean it, but you just can't take the chance.

In a bit of irony, on the drive down to our vacation, about 10 hours drive, I bring up with my WW how I'm feeling. The usual I tell her we need to talk about this. And she says she wants to talk about it, but can we not do it on the drive, can we wait till we get there and then will set aside some time to talk. So I tell her, that isn't going to happen. If I agree to that, she will just avoid it, then eventually tell me we were going to talk, but this or that came up, etc. Anyway, so I agree, and sure enough, the whole week goes by and we don't talk at all.

So this was the source of the big blow up last night. I guess we sorted some things out during that conversation. I'm still completely perplexed on the contradictions that are my WW's behaviors.

Anyway, I'm taking Mel's advice to a certain extent in that I just feel like if we are going to try and recover, we need some sort of structure to it. As the above sort of demonstrates, left to her own devices, my WW just seems to bury these things and hope they go away.

I brought up the MB weekend, and she said she is willing to go, but to be honest, I'm not 100% sold on it myself. It's just not my sort of thing, but I may ask some questions about it and see if my thoughts changes.
Posted By: Tabby1 Re: Disappointed - 12/01/09 05:53 PM
Welcome back, rpynne.

I have never been to the MB weekend so I'm not trying to be a salesman here, but from where you are sitting right now, why not? What have you got to lose from it? You've tried so many different things - this one doesn't seem that hard to do. It certainly won't make your M any worse.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Disappointed - 12/01/09 06:43 PM
As much as i hate to say it, i know exactly how you feel with the limbo land. I have been there for a while myself as you know.

And i also know what you mean about the weekend not being your thing. I guess it is worth a try though, i mean it couldn't hurt. I just do not know how far down the path of limbo you are.

PS sorry about your Grandmother, hope she is feeling better.
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 12/02/09 12:37 AM
Oh heck, never mind! whistle

Old argument, not worth restarting!

-ol' 2long
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 12/02/09 12:43 AM
rp:

It's when you realize that you're good either way your W goes, that you have 2 "worry."

Well, worry isn't the right term, because when you get there, you may even be giddy with happiness. And that's because what your W does or doesn't do doesn't decide your happiness. It's what you do and who you are, that does.

best,
-ol' 2long
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: Disappointed - 12/02/09 02:05 PM
> giddy with happiness

Happiness or contentment?

IMO happiness can be fleeting - like eating tofu stir fry...but contentment is a rib-stickin' meal with a side of gravy.

I'd give my red luggage for RP to find where his contentment lies and be able to attain it (and you all know I love my luggage).
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 12/03/09 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by Tabby1
I have never been to the MB weekend so I'm not trying to be a salesman here, but from where you are sitting right now, why not? What have you got to lose from it? You've tried so many different things - this one doesn't seem that hard to do. It certainly won't make your M any worse.

Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
And i also know what you mean about the weekend not being your thing. I guess it is worth a try though, i mean it couldn't hurt. I just do not know how far down the path of limbo you are.

I agree, it couldn't hurt.

Originally Posted by 2long
It's when you realize that you're good either way your W goes, that you have 2 "worry."

This is not my worry. At my work, I am constantly confronted with the fact that making the "correct" decision at each node of a decision tree with very many branches on it does not lead to the optimal outcome over the entire decision horizon.

This is my worry for my M. Meaning, at each point that I need to make the call as to whether to continue or end it, the "correct" decision will be to continue it. However, after 20 years of correct decisions, I will be at a place I do not like.

I worry about this for you, as well.

Originally Posted by Dealan-de
I'd give my red luggage for RP to find where his contentment lies and be able to attain it (and you all know I love my luggage).

Well, I appreciate that.
Posted By: 2long Re: Disappointed - 12/04/09 02:00 AM
Quote
This is not my worry. At my work, I am constantly confronted with the fact that making the "correct" decision at each node of a decision tree with very many branches on it does not lead to the optimal outcome over the entire decision horizon.

This is my worry for my M. Meaning, at each point that I need to make the call as to whether to continue or end it, the "correct" decision will be to continue it. However, after 20 years of correct decisions, I will be at a place I do not like.

I worry about this for you, as well.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not worried, in my case, though I do appreciate the concern. I'm "content." That is a better word than "happy" in these cases, because it conveys better how I feel about the statement I'm making about my own values and integrity by making the decisions I make.

But I'm a lot older than you are. I no longer feel the "need" 2 start a marriage and family at this stage in my life, having already done so (and I have 2 great adult kids as a result of it).

-ol' 2long
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Disappointed - 12/04/09 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
I'm still completely perplexed on the contradictions that are my WW's behaviors.

Why are you perplexed?
It's something you've known about her for a long time.
I'm perplexed that you're perplexed.

You know the sorts of behaviors and mal-adjusted coping of which she is capable.
Posted By: Tyk Re: Disappointed - 12/07/09 11:40 PM
Hi rprynne. Its been a long time since I was here, I don't really even know why I stopped in, I just saw the link in my favorites and clicked it.

I searched your posts to see how your sitch was going and I'm really sorry to see that this has happened. I'd hoped for better for you, but I can't really say it surprises me much.

I think you need to really stop considering your WW too much as you plan your way forward. She has made her decisions, over and over again. Hasn't she taken up enough of your time and energy already? How much are your willing to give this person?

I think you know the answer here, to me it seems pretty much unavoidable. Use your logic. What are the chances that your wife is going to accomodate herself to a marriage you find tolerable, much less happy and fulfilling? All this time and she's got a secret phone and is making contact?! Its such a fundamental lack of respect for you and the marriage and what you'd like to build. This is different than the typical post affair NC breaks imo.

Its all about you now, rprynne. What do you want out of this life? As far as we know, you only get one go round. You've said before that you aren't looking for or contemplating other relationships, and I get that. But I think you should consider that your current marriage is actually impeding your chances to find happiness, alone or with someone else. I think what you have endured has traumatized you, and that's understandable. But I think you've gotten so far into bad that you can't even see it for what it is. Bad for you is 3 steps past insanity for most! And while I gotta hand it to you for being able to ride through this with such a calm demeanor, another part of me just wants to shake you really hard and holler "HEY MAN! You do know that it doesn't HAVE to be this way, don't you?!!"

You've fought so hard, you've done what you can do. You've learned alot and I can almost guarantee you that if you ever took another chance on a relationship with someone else that it would astound you how much better it can be. You probably can't see it, can't believe it, because you're so immersed in this craziness that your wife has caused, that you have allowed to develop. This is not what you meant when you said "for better or worse". This isn't about your integrity and your promises regarding HER. This is about your integrity and your promises to YOURSELF. This is about your wife willfully destroying your marriage and you saying "oh yeah? well then I dare you to cross THIS line. . . "

Ok, she did that. Good for her. WTF are you still doing watching her have another go at it? I mean, is this a stubborness contest between you and her? Do you feel like you've quit if you just acknowledge the bald truth that this marriage doesn't work? What does she have to do to prove this to you? Marriage should not be a contest to see who can endure the most hurt, and if it were, you've won. You set a record, its going to stand for quite a while. Time to find a new game, don't you think?

I'm sorry man, I know this is harsh, but I just want you to know that life isn't supposed to be like this, and you don't deserve to have to live it this way anymore. Get yourself out of this disaster and give yourself a fighting chance to find a happy, peaceful life.

First step to get out of a hole: STOP DIGGING!
Look up, the future doesn't have to be as hard as the past and the present is.

I wish you the strength to do what you need to do.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 12/08/09 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Why are you perplexed?
It's something you've known about her for a long time.
I'm perplexed that you're perplexed.

You know the sorts of behaviors and mal-adjusted coping of which she is capable.

Perplexed is maybe not the right word. I guess all I was trying to convery was that my WW's life is also no better this way. Why does she continue to do what makes her miserable when she has been given countless opportunities to do otherwise? That's more of rhetorical question as I think I know the answer.

It's okay.

Originally Posted by Tyk
I'm sorry man, I know this is harsh, but I just want you to know that life isn't supposed to be like this, and you don't deserve to have to live it this way anymore. Get yourself out of this disaster and give yourself a fighting chance to find a happy, peaceful life.

Tyk - so good to hear from you. You should give us all an update some time.

Your not being harsh, and I basically agree with what you are saying. I know what I'm going to do going forward. I'd like to think I have some master plan, but basically I've tried everything I can do. It's really up to her. I hope she succeeds, since I would prefer to recover our marriage.
Posted By: Tyk Re: Disappointed - 12/08/09 05:26 PM
I'll get an update in. The short is that things are good here!

I would suggest that why your wife does these things is irrelevant to you at this point. You're a smart guy, you've thought about it for years, and you don't know the answer and I think never will.

You're talking about recovering a marriage that hasn't existed in years. She doesn't know how to be married, and you can't make her want to find out how. You've presented this option to her time and time again. Dude, she's just not that into you. . :P

You're calm and you're able to think your way around all this. You provide yourself with every "what if" scenario, and you're able to justify yourself because theoretically, anything is possible. But those "what ifs", they aren't real. They're just you wasting your life on something that has proven to be futile.

My worry is for YOU at this point, not really your marriage, because I believe you've learned everything you need to know about being married to your WW.

What would it take for you and your WW to find happiness together? I don't think she has it in her, and its silly for you to expect it of her at this point.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 12/14/09 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by Tyk
I'll get an update in. The short is that things are good here!

Good - look forward to the update.

Originally Posted by Tyk
Dude, she's just not that into you. . :P

Perhaps. I don't think it is so much about her not being into me, all though that doesn't help. It's more about she is so much into her alternative life.

Originally Posted by Tyk
What would it take for you and your WW to find happiness together? I don't think she has it in her, and its silly for you to expect it of her at this point.

Well, this is typically part of my problem. I don't think it would take much at all for my WW and I to find happiness together. That's why it is hard for me to conclude she doesn't have it in her.

BP wrote an update just recently and it very much expresses how I feel about things in my situation.

It's my wedding anniversary today.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Disappointed - 12/14/09 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
It's my wedding anniversary today.
That is a poignant note. I hope the day goes well for you. Are you doing something together?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Disappointed - 12/14/09 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
It's my wedding anniversary today.

CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!!!

How many years?

Do you have any special plans?
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Disappointed - 12/14/09 06:17 PM
Happy Anniversary, Rprynne...18 years now?

:::sneaking in:::

{{{Tyk!}}} Congratulations on your short update and impulsive link-clicking. You're missed.

LA
Posted By: rprynne Re: Disappointed - 12/15/09 12:37 PM
Thanks.

It is 18 years now. We exchanged gifts and went out to dinner at our favorite restaurant. We had a lot of fun.

She brought along a marriage self-help book and wants us to work on some of the exercises in the book.
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