hi to those that remember me. It has been a while since I posted.

I certainly miss some things here..

I filed for divorce last year. It is still ongoing. I was feeling fairly lonely and wanted to talk to someone today.

Also... if you remember my story... we could talk about that. There must be something I could learn at this point as well.

thanks.

Hey Patriot! How are you? Please do talk it would be good to get things out.

I'm sorry Patriot.

The thing about life is that there is something to learn at EVERY point.

(((((PAT)))))

FF. I'm doing ok at this point. feeling lonely lately and wanting to talk about the past a little bit so I can gain more understanding of it. currently, the divorce is going to trial. I attempted to do mediation a few times, and her side agreed to it in front of a judge, but then away from court they would back out. So this has dragged on and on. There are some things I don't understand about all this. I suppose I still need to work that out in order to extract all the learning I can from it. Not really sure where to start.

dealan... thank you.

Your story is before my time here but I read some of your initial thread. Why did you file?

raven,

I filed because for two years prior, I was threatened almost daily with her filing and no matter what methods I tried to apply, nothing was a solution for her. I read the Bible's take on this and found that she has walked away from the marriage, so by filing I am simply accepting her 'no'.

which she is free to give.

I would have preferred a more direct no.. but that wasn't to be had.

The consequences and the fallout from our past choices create events that are often far beyond our control.

I'm sorry that you and she find yourselves in divorce court.

There was a period of time that MB seemed to work in your M, what do you think went wrong??

Did you read Dr. Harley's article on when to call it quits?

My WH also walked out and filed. It was final in January of 2009. He left when I finally went on antidepressants and just left him the hell alone to chase all the girls he wanted. THAT'S when he left and filed.

I have not seen or spoken to him since June of 2008, when he packed up and left.

He sees very little of DS21, who used to mean more to XWH than anything in this world. I suspect that XWH is ignoring DS in the hopes that that will make DS come crawling back to Daddy and give Daddy some attention. He used to do the same thing to me. It worked for a while, but not after the antidepressant. And it will never work with DS.

He also tells people "I tried, but nothing worked. She was just crazy." Translation: "Nothing would make Mulan accept my girlfriends, so I had to teach her a lesson. I nuked my family and ran away. Ha, ha. So there."

I hope he's happy now. I hope you will be happy, too.
Mulan

tst,
one of the things that went wrong was I took personal responsibility for my affair and ceased the behavior and she did not. I cut all contact, quit my job and so on. Was it without static from me? no. But I did those things and learned the reasons why. I did not understand in the beginning. I do now.

My infidelity was prior to our marriage so she had a chance to not marry me. She choose to anyway. I promised to not cheat and to make her feel safe. I was easily successful on the first part. The last part I failed on.

There was no way I could. No one can make anyone feel anything. For as easy as it is to snipe that remark I assume, the fact is she wanted me to make her feel safe. I couldn't. The damage was done prior to the marriage. She didn't trust me. Understandable, but she chose to marry me anyway, thus she should assume the responsibility for the outcome. That her feeling safe was her job. My job was to do nothing further to hurt her.

In her mind, me being ten minutes late from work hurt her.

In my mind, infidelity, abuse and so on was hurting her.

I never did the latter and yet I was to blame. She did not take responsibility for buying the pee stained couch so to say. She just bought it and then spent the rest of the time saying this pee stained couch sucks and I am not going to do anything to clean it up.

Mulan,

I always find it horribly narrow for you to equate me to your husband. You have described his actions before and I have found nothing similar in them other than he and I have both cheated on someone we cared about. I never went to business parties. I never hung out with the power players and women in order to have stature... or whatever he does. You have described a man that has had multiple affairs... A womanizer. That you have merely read things and place me in the same category is ridiculous. You don't even know me. I have to assume the stories you tell about your husband are correct and factual. Any stories you tell about me are not. Period. You don't know the first thing you are talking about when it comes to me. But that hasn't hindered you from lambasting me on occasion. Honestly, I was hoping you would post to me because I knew your preconceived notion about me. Not that I believe I could change that, but I thought it would be nice to talk to you because of the friction. Which from my perspective is a point one can learn from. Force different ideas because I imagined you wouldn't hold back on saying anything.

I did not walk out on my wife. The time line works this way.

Infidelity
She finds out.
We get married
I start new job.
2.5 years of progression and things getting better
the job was a military deployment, so I have to find a real job now
I find real job and make 2 weeks of attempts to include her in discussions about it
she does not take the opportunity
I take job
things turn for the worse from that point forward.

here we are.

certainly a simple view of it. but not inaccurate.

And frankly, I am happy. I don't get abused with insults and remarks about how much of a low-life cheat I am. I don't get a random email from my wife with a recent picture of OW in it because she went a dug it up off the internet just to hurt me with it. I don't say, "Hey I would like to talk about issue X" and get "I'm scared of you, piss off" anymore. I get to live my life by my values... which is pretty nice. Seeing as how I am a pretty nice guy and not a cheating, lying, stealing, baby-murder... it works out well.

I assume you will have your opinion about me, but I would certainly like the chance to talk about it. I would really like to be open about the mistakes I made, because I made them, and learn from the experience.

If you would like to discuss then let me know. I would appreciate your time. I do respect your thoughts even if I don't agree with some of your opinoins.

Pat, since you want to talk through the past I assume it is so you don't repeat your mistakes. Am I correct? If so, let's start with the beginning. Do you know now why you cheated on your fiance? Technically it was not an affair since you were not yet married but it was cheating.

I recall their being domestic violence. Perhaps she had a valid reason to be scared of you.

FF, I cheated on my fiance because I did not respect our relationship. I did not uphold respectable values, that I have, and maintain the relationship. I did not believe I would get caught. I saw a chance to feel sexy and be wanted by someone and I took it. Lots of reasons I suppose. The oppurtunity was there.

She was a person worthy of my faithfulness and I cheated her out of that. She supported me fully and I betrayed her. She loved me and I threw that away to rut like a pig, as a friend of mine would say.

it was dirty and foul. Not at the time of course because I was drunk from the attention and fantasy of it. But it is filthy and I regret the hell out of it.

It is easy to not make this mistake again because the consequences are real and I don't like hurting people. I don't like disrespecting people in such a horrid manner. I am not wisked away in my mind by the glamour of it all. It was nasty and foul. And I know I hurt her so badly with it. I regret that.

Why did I do it? Because at that time, I wanted to. I did not weigh the consequences for her or I. Given the chance to do it again, I would choose differently. I would inform her of the girl at work flirting with me. I would hope she would join me in strengthening our relationship against outside forces. AS it is, I choose wrong obviously. I know not to do that again.


Nervous, there was never domestic violence. I never hit her. There were fights but those were all verbal.

I don't really think Mulan is accusing you of being just like her xwh (cause you obviously aren't..Mr. Mulan never posted here). Rather, I think Mulan identifies with your stbxw more from the angle of being constantly accused of being "crazy".

The difference IMO...Mulan is NOT crazy, STBXW is/was.

I've met them and thought we were all friends only to have my friendship betrayed by her for no other reason than pointing out to her that Patriot NEVER actually committed marital adultery and she technically "forgave" him the day she married him.

Seems to me if she was really so victimized by patriots passive aggression and constant gaslighting she'd want to get this divorce over with and get far away from him. They weren't married long and had no children together. Instead, she cleans him out stealing all the marital (and much of the non-marital) property down to the last stitch and piece of silverware, accuses him of heinous crimes, accuses him of additional adultery, accuses him of physical abuse, breaks into his home (after separation), breaks into his computer, defames him on MB, to his step-kids and likely everywhere else and THEN drags the divorce on for over a year (my guess just to keep making him as miserable as possible since, in her mind, she bears NO RESPONSIBILITY for the downfall of this marriage [crazy, I know] and/or hoping he'll date or something so she can REALLY get him for adultery). It's all a game to her and she NEEDS him to maintain her victimhood (I bet she's even accusing HIM of being the one dragging the divorce out, passive aggressively, no doubt).

It will be over soon. I'm so relieved for you. You've been gaslit long enough. Nobody could have been "perfect" in your no-win situation. Sure you bear responsibility too, but IMO, you did the best you could. I know you care about her (likely a little less NOW after being separated so long), but I join you in hoping she gets the help she needs, if only for her kids sake.

Moving forward...have you figured out/been working on why you seem attracted to these "victims", such that your next relationship (once divorced) can be a healthy one?

Mr. Wondering

Hey there Pat, good to "see" you!

Mrs. W

Disagree with you there. The behaviors of others do influence the feelings of others...good or bad. We don't live in vacuums.


I think you are off here. It is your job as a husband to make your wife feel safe. Perhaps she did make a mistake in marrying you in light of your cheating. People don't make the best choices when they are hurting and feeling desperate to hold onto the remnants of life as they know it, but if your attitude was that her not feeling safe was of her own doing...makes me wonder how you treated her while she was struggling. I think that attitude sucks.

Fair enough. I as a former wayward know as well that I would not put myself in a situation again that give me the opportunity to cheat. Not because I haven't learned enough about affairs, the dynamics of adultery or how much it hurts both the betrayed and the wayward but because I know that it is easy to fool oneself. So to protect any future R's I would advise you to take that thought one step further and build solid personal boundaries so you never allow yourself the OPPORTUNITY to cheat.

I always got the feeling that she was waiting for the other shoe to drop.

MR W

Thanks for the recap.

Well heck...after reading all that...I'm going to bow out of the train wreck.

Mr. W. Hi! I have missed you. Would love to talk sometime. Thanks for your support. As far as your question, I'm not sure I have truly addressed that. I have learned from my experience in this previous sitaution to some degree, but I am not sure all degrees. In fact, I doubt all things have been learned from this. I haven't really spent much time considering the victims issue. It is obviously important and all I am saying is I read your question and felt like a kid in class after the teacher asks something you should obviously have known. I need to look into that. Very important. Any ideas?

Mrs. Wondering Hi to you too! I hope you folks are well.miss you too.

raven,

I was specific. I can't make her feel. Make. I agree that I can effect it. I can influence. But if one walks into a situation with a preconceived bias or thought on something, that can be more powerful than anothers effect on their feelings. Her feelings are within her boundary. I can lead her feelings to water... but...



on #2 .. then I guess my attitude sucks. Being in a state of pain does not remove one's resonsibilty for their actions. We might be inclined to give free passes to people under duress for whatever reason, but it does not remove the fact that the decision was made by her. I held no gun to her head. She was free to walk. Her not feeling safe in the beginning was from my actions. That is easy to see. However, over time, my actions stopped being this same thing that made her feel unsafe and yet she never felt safer.

It is my job as a husband to protect my wife. If my wife is protected, to the best of my assessment, and she still feels unsafe, at some point, there is nothing more I can do.

I do get what you are saying about the pee stained couch.

My thoughts are still on the feeling safe issue and the trust issue that you mention.

Once you 2 came to MB and began trying to work the MB program did you manage to "create the environment that she needed in order to feel safe" or was this a moving target?

on the first point, what do you consider sufficient in this endeavor? It hurt really bad the first time and the memroy of that pain will keep me away from it? Never be in a relationship again? I can tell you that because I worked at a job outside the home, frozen did not feel safe. She saw "work" as unsafe. I see "work" as a requirement to survival. That I screwed around at work was not linked to that. It was a place to meet people... no different than a convience store with a girl behind the counter that was sweet to me. I never had an affair with her, the counter lady... so leaving THE job where I cheated was not good enough. So, does this mean I have to never work again in order to protect my next R? What kinds of things do you build? For the moment, I am running on "the consequences sucked for her and I and I don't want to be a part of that again" It seems to be working just peachy, actually. Just like with all people, when the consequence is bad enough, the behavior can change pretty easy. This set of consequesnces was pretty bad, I'd say.

And yes... she was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. I am a provider. It is my instinct(which is probably worthy of a look as far as Mr W is talking about attracting victims). She was waiting for the other show to drop because I was going to work. Work is obviously the place of cheating... which of course it isn't. That work was the place of cheating. No other workplace I have been to has been even close to any sort of cheating. I learned from my mistake and my behavior changed. Never broke no contact. Not even now. NC obvioulsy doen't matter to my marriage anymnore... but it matters to OWs(if she is still in it.. I don't know.. I don't keep up at all) so in order to respect the possibility of her marraige, NC stays in place. That tims in my life is over. No need to go there again.

So I dont have the chance of relapse with OW.

I stay away from interactions outside the workplace now.

I remember the consequences.

what else? I alwyas feel I am missing some big point...

Check out this thread started by STBXW in July, 2008...see if you can READ the lies therein. She "claims" he raped her a MONTH prior while she was supposedly out of it on Ambien, she calls the police and has him removed from his home for a few days and lo and behold when he gets back in it is completely cleaned out. It was a RUSE to rip him off, obtain/maintain victim status AND by posting it here, an attempt to cut Patriot off from his support (MB friends who were really the only friends he was allowed to have).

***edit****

I think the best insight into this "train wreck" comes from this post below written by STBXW herself on 10/2008 (after cleaning him out and isolating him from everyone). Recall the childhood lesson that when someone points a finger at someone, they have 3 other fingers pointing back at them.


Mr. W

p.s. - I've had my tiffs with Patriot here and elsewhere. I'm NOT nominating him for sainthood. But he's a good guy that TRIED very hard and for a very long time to right that ship. He endured far more than I ever would have if I were in his situation.

Hi Patriot! Long time, no see. Hope you are doing well.

Actually, Pat, remove her from this part of the discussion. This is all about you and any future R's you have. My A was a workplace affair as well. In fact I still work at the same job. My H does not feel unsafe with me being here. What have I done to ensure I don't put myself in that position again? I do not talk about my marriage with members of the opposite sex. I don't allow myself to get close to anyone at work any more in fact. I have a few people that I chat with in the lunch room but I never take it to a deep level. I don't have lunch alone with the opposite sex unless it happens to take place in our very busy and very public lunchroom. Most of my lunch time I read the news paper.

In addition I don't have close male friends. I don't flirt. I don't dress provacatively. If I dress up it is for my H, not anyone else. I had an old BF call me out of the blue a few years ago. I told him flat out that I didn't want to continue with any attempt at friendship since my H was at that moment involved in an affair with an old gf.

So re-read my question as what do you plan to do going forward in your life?

Hey Patriot,
I am so grateful that you have posted because I am turning into your STBXW, my WS posts on here as yellanointmE he is in the same boat as you where in, he is a decent guy, he sees work as essential and he is trying to learn as much as possible from his mistake, I see work as him being part of a world that i dont belong in whatever job he has and therefore not able to feel safe and will have tendencies to sabotage job, however discussed that he will make an effort to introduce his family at when he moves from working with OW to a new job in the new year in order to avoid recurrence of A and protect himself from wayward behaviour. I feel like I have so much to learn from your situation and the way you feel due to the similarities, My WS beleives he is a nice guy and has never hurt anyone no matter what they did to him so A was a shock to both of us. Difference between you and him is that he had A 10 years into our marriage and you had it at the beginning of your relationship so you dont understand why she still married you and my answer to that is because she loved you enough to want to try to beleive in you again and trust you again , unfortunately she didnt manage that despite your efforts. Im sorry I am not able to give you much help in your situation right now apart from maybe try and explain how crazed BW feel as both myself and your wife seem to have this unfortunate trait, I dont know if you would find that helpful but im here if you want to give it a try. Tell me what you didnt understand about your BS behaviour and I will try and explain why we feel this way. I am very proud of the way you have grown and respected your marriage even after it ended. You havent gone and buried your head in another relationship and you are on here trying to better yourself for the next relationship and that is nothing short of admirable. You are allowing yourself to feel the pain despite having the freedom to forget about it.

I agree. In fact, what I was saying was meant to convey that I think you really did try. She seemed to be stuck WAITING for it to happen again. It is very hard to recover with someone in those conditions.

So glad to see you back!

IMO, you've been "victimized" yourself by TWO spouses now.

I know we've discussed over the years that you felt victimized by your FOO.

Consider also that every argument we've had on MB was you defending a "victim" on MB.

IMO, you are a saver and a defender of the weak. Which in the abstract sounds great, however, IMO, your perception of true "weakness" seems way off. Add in another abusive relationship and it's even going to be more "off" going forard. You ARE the victim here. You have to recover individually before you go trying to "save" anyone else.

Why you are an unhealthy saver is irrelevant, really. Recognizing it and addressing it in the future is the important part BEFORE you make another mistake.

For now...you MIGHT just avoid a initmate relationship for long while. Get divorced (obviously) and focus on building meaninful platonic relationships & friendships. Get healthy as right now...you'll either be the savior or the one needing saving, which isn't a healthy foundation for any relationship.

Your friend,

Mr. W

To add to Mr. W's post...get the book "10 Stupid Things Men do to Mess up Their Lives" by Dr. Laura Schlessinger.

Pat, one thing that springs to my mind is the private conversation with a female professor or something like that. I'm not defending her at all for her reactions, and don't even remember how that came out, so all I'm doing is tossing out some general thoughts here.

I would, now and always, be uncomfortable with AJ having a closed-door meeting one on one with a woman. He has done everything within his power to help me feel safe, so I feel reasonable holding up my discomfort as a response that falls within normal and healthy.

Since you're looking for areas which you can still improve for future relationships, that might be one to consider. Not because you are forever tainted (you're not), but because you're human. I think it's just a good policy when you're in a committed R, not to be alone with members of the opposite sex.

However off the chart some of the responses and expectations of your STBXW may have been, that is something that would bother most women, and approximately 100% of women who have been betrayed.

Sad but true, it will take you a while to sort yourself out, and separate the irrational reactions from the rational ones. This is a good place to do it, though.

Hey Pat:

I just wanted to say Hi, and also thank you for the help you and frozen tried to give me several years ago.

I am glad that you are finding some peace now...I am totally shocked to hear that **** did all of the following to you:


When you guys were trying to help me and STBXWW, I thought **** was stable and firmly rooted in reality. I remember that **** used to call STBXWW on her crazy BS too, and I WISHED that STBXWW could be more like ****. I didn't know that they were so similar after all...

Anyway, I hope you get the peace you deserve soon.

FYI, I went through a bunch of false legal allegations too in the divorce and custody stuff. However, I am almost done now with a tentative agreement, and I believe it will all be done within a month or so.

LoBoy

Thanks for the link Mr. W but it is very vague IMO and since I wasn't here back then or know either party I was going by what patriot said in his own words. Maybe she was angry at herself for going through with the marriage and wanted to punish him all she could. If she did the things you say, then she has/had her own issues and I don't agree with that either. In the end, D seems like it was the correct solution for both.

well, my plan going forward is mostly made up of "well duh" stuff right now. I respect marriage, so I not messing with anyone's. At all. If a woman pushes towards me, then I will deal with that in the moment. Simple escalation of force, basically. First confront her. If that fails, then escalate the response to informing her husband. I figure I will deal with that as it happens, but the guide is stay away. So that protects others relationships from me.

For myself in a relationship, to protect the one with me, it really comes down to transparency, honesty and maintaining my values and boundaries.. that latter I have found is much easier when you aren't under attack all the time. I understand the pain that happens when you are unfaithful and that is deterrent enough for me.

So, I am keeping in mind the protection of a relationship I may be in, then really... going forward with someone else is down to remaining aware of the status of what is going on and responding in a healthy manner. Previously, lets say, if I dated someone and they started talking about moving in, I would field that idea. Now, I won't. If the person I am dating needs money just to get by, I'm probably no longer the guy. Basically, all 'savior' mentality is halted. So I get to be a little more selfish really, for now. Later on, if I find someone, then I will begin with honesty and simply being me and if things progress, then fine. But frankly, I believe I have seen plenty of unhealthy behavior to know how to ID it, and for the moment, I am staying away from that kind of stuff.

For instance, I dated someone for a little while recently. It was going too fast probably, but it felt good at the time. And I wanted that. But this woman had an issue with my child taking my time away from her. I let the issue persist for a short time so I could make sure I was seeing what I was seeing. I purposefully planned an outing for the three of us at a local place. For the most part, things were fine, but she made mention of something that was a red flag as to her feeling she had to compete for my time against my son. This after I had made it a POINT to divide time evenly. I was very deliberate. It was a reg flag and that was that. I ended it. I didn't want to be alone at the time, and previously, that would have been enough to deal. It no longer is. So that relationship is in the past. And my son and I win. I don't get into an unhealthy relationship. He doesn't get dragged into it either.

really, it came down to "I know what happens when you don't pay attention to the decisions you make so now I will pay attention" I'm not completely damaged and I know what it looks like when things aren't right. And really, I have to trust my instincts. My son is the most important to me. He wasn't winning. So I wasn't either. And if I was going to let it persist, all three of us would pay for it in some way. So, thank you for your time, but I'm moving on.

any concerns with that answer?


raven: why bow out of the train wreck. Life is a crazy thing. But most of the time, we let things happen to us. I made this and let this happen to me, at different points. You learn or you don't. My focus is to learn from it, which I think I might have gotten most of what I need from it. Maybe in talking about it, someone else benefits.

Mr W: nope.. I'm no saint... but I play one on a movie of the week

ML: I have missed you most scarecrow... I hope you are doing very well. I sent you email.

brutal: the biggest question I have is this. Why couldn't she seperate the idea of work from the infidelity? In today's society, as I see it, you have to work. it is the ONLY wayto survive for MOST people. We have to eat. We have to have shelter. She equated work to the bar. I can't even see that analogy. Work is where you work. You don't earn money at the bar, unless you work there. If we have a house, cars, credit, teenagers in HS, and so on... how is any of this sustained by me not working? The answer is, it isn't. Not at all... so then we have a fork in the road, yes? Either you stay with me and I work. Or you don't stay with me and I work. Either way, the only way I know to survive is to work. It has to happen. I left the workplace that contained OW. It wasn't work that made me cheat. It was my decision and OW. period. This does not translate to now EVERY workplace is a cheatfest...

Neak: You said something very important. You recognized that you may not feel 100% safe but that you were willing to accept that given what you were receiving from him. Two parts there. He's doing his part. You are accepting responsibility for letting him back in(you chose to stay). I believed I was doing all I could to fulfill the former. The latter, however, was missing and I couldn't do anything about that. I agree with you that it is very protective and right to not be in situations like you described with members of the opposite sex. I was not always perfect on this, like meeting with a female professor, but the door was not closed, it was a public college and so on. At a workplace I was at, daily I reported on each instance of a female saying 'hello' to me in the hall. As tedious as that was, I did it because I wanted to help her feel safe. That was supposed to be transparency. I've wondered if the fact that 5-10 polite women saying hi to me over the course of a day really sounded like several instances and thus, overwhelming to her...

loboy: unfortunately, the internet hides the true person. hell.. I might be batcrap insane for all you know... that said, the list of stuff that Mr W wrote is not all of it. ANd that list is large... I look at it and say wow. I hope your situation improves soon.

raven again: um.. yes. D is the right solution. I would submit in addition to this a remark about what you said. The idea of her being angry at a choice SHE made and PUNISHING me for it sounds about as evil as I can imagine. One of my personal pet peeves is people not taking personal responsibility. I ride my kid for this. When he does something and then attempts to not take the blame for the outcome, I stop him right there and we talk about it. punishing someone else for YOUR poor choice is simply low and dehumanizing. Where are the checks and balances in that? The care and protection? Really? I don't know what I said in my own words that you saw, but I certainly did NOT spend time punishing her for my choices. And isn't that a pretty important tenet around here?

personal responsibility?

The BS can't forgive if they ALWAYS blame the WS for the pee stained couch. At some point you have to say, "I bought it and now we are going forward"

The WS can't understand and change it they don't take personal responsibility either.

when you take responsibility for yourself, you are a better giver and taker as well.

"He did this to me" is a crisis and people need help.

"He did this to me 3 years ago and I choose to stay, but I also choose to punish the hel out of him for the entire time" is simply not taking personal responsibility for one's actions. And sad, really.

Hey pilot I can only tell you how I feel about it as i can see i am very similar to your STBXW, my WH has said what you have said above to me a millon times and I still didnt get it, to me work was alien territory where he goes to get away from house kids and gets totally abosorbed into something that has nothing to do with him thinking about us (now i realise that earning money is thinking about us but not as directly as i would have liked) when A happened with a coworker this only enforced my hate for him having this refuge, i was a stay at home mum and didnt have a space to escape kids, marriage etc and fantasised that work did that for him. I didnt care that he was lifting heavy items, working through lunch breacks and he was under pressure to meet deadlines, to me that was irrelevant work = Freedom from home. Could your STBXW have had those feelings? was she working too?
Another side is that i was gelouse, its as simple as that, having been made aware that he is capable of having A i was fiercly gelouse of any job that involved women, i dont care how old what they look like as long as they were women there was a threat. When you are so consumed with gelousy you tend to oversee the facts that the kids wont have food if WS isnt working and it took me a lot of selfsoothing and antidepressants to supress this in order for WS to carry on working with OW. Unlike your STBXW I reached a point that i realised i was fighting with something that didnt make sense and decided to figure out what actions steps would help WS to take in order to help me cope with him working. 1) I got a job and now understand that when your at work you work there isnt really much chance to spend all day thinking about how much you love kids and W.
2) I understood the need for WS to provide for us, as the few times i successfully sabotaged WS work they suffered.
3) I figured out that if i met the people WS works with then i had some assurances like they would know who i was and would possibly tell me if WS strayed again, plus it got me involved in WS work life in the way that he could come home and talk to me about the people he works with and i would know who and what he was talking about.
4) seeing the reality of what my WS job involves helps destroy the fantasy that he has so much time on his hands while at work to think about us and even start A again. Its not easy having A at work there are alot of people looking and then there are the gossipers followed by the immense amount of planning it takes to make sure you dont give anyone a hint that you are having a with a coworker. It really must be exhausting.

I could go on but what i am trying to say that she has to be realisting and willing to help things in order to get over the work situation and im sad to see she may not have been.

You don't just accept the pee stained couch, not in a recovery. The couch picks up the phone, calls the cleaners, makes itself an appointment, goes and gets cleaned up, and deep sixes the dog that peed on it.

The other acceptable alternative, that doesn't involve recovery, is take the couch to the dump and drop it off. What doesn't work is to keep the couch, never sit on it, draw the stain back on if it starts to fade, and just kick the couch for being dirty. (Even if the couch genuinely has pee on it this is bad, far worse when the couch has been long since cleaned up.)

Being a FWS does not entitle the BS to abuse you, so I'm very glad you have a chance to find peace.

I dont know if this will be relavant or helpful to you but my WS has had councelling with Steve Harley and this is what he has realised and done regarding A.

Steve ponted out that A happen when you fail to protect your weaknesses, you seem to be aware of your weaknesses so accept that you have them and put boundries in place to protect them. A boundry of never talking to another woman again is not realistic so try to be realstic in your boundries so that you are more likely to stick to them. One that my WS has chosen for example is not to be a shoulder to cry on for women, he recognises this is a bad sign that something is up so he will tell women that he simply hasnt got the experience to help them out with their issues and refer them to another woman for advise, you see there is no need to be nasty about you can still do it nicely.

There is a list of boundries on my WS thread that he has set himself see if you can find any of them helpful.

I do feel that you need time to recover from M and not to get into any relationships until D is through. I agree you need to start thinking about future relationships but maybe hold off on actually being in one until you have had sufficient time to start recovering from D.

Is this a question?


I agree


I don't disagree with what you said except for the bolded...I can think of way more evil things than her being messed up by A trauma and lashing out, right or wrong. How long between Dday and your wedding?

BR: It was a question. Never mind I suppose.

everyone has their opinions on what is evil and what isn't. Some are universal.. others are based on one's experience. The bolded part is, obviously, based on my experience.

DDay to wedding was 6 weeks I think. ballparking there.

All I have to say is WOW...I guess FWS have it rough too, maybe thats why a lot of WS never go back because it is easier for them just to walk away....not sayin that is the right thing to do, but most of them took the easy way by sneakin and cheatin, instead of facing problems head on...

I give you a lot of credit Pat, you made a mistake, we all have made our share..and it seems to me that you did all the things required to make it right, which is not easy...and it didnt work out...But now you have the proper tools to have a great relationship in the future, good luck.

PS I just want to add...Isnt it so cute that Mr and Mrs wondering post together on threads to help people..they always make me smile when I see them post together.

Hey Patriot, I don't post much any more but wanted to say I'm sorry to hear this news but I think it is best in the long run.

Wanted to add that the Wonderings know what they're talking about.

Hi, Pat!

I gotta say that I think you are both better off getting divorced.

IMHO, *** read so many psychology and self-help books, along with listening to some psychobabble from various folks, that she began to act as if she thought she was some sort of relationship guru.

Seriously, I have known people like *** who pick details to death.

For instance:

Your random person, upon meeting someone like ***, walking down the street: "Hi, ***! How are you?"

***-like person: "Fine, and you?"

Random person: "Never better!" and they each continue walking down the street.

***-like person, thinking to herself: "I wonder what she meant by that? Why does she care how I am? Does she know something about me that I don't know? Was she throwing up how happy SHE is by saying, 'Never better!'?"

I had a sister-in-law who used to do that. Actually, she would sometimes even ask people what they meant by some innocuous remark they made. I think, though, that she eventually realized that not every remark someone made had some hidden meaning in it, and so her behavior toward and relationship with others improved.

I think that *** was too enmeshed in being a victim. I can remmeber that, when she first came to MB, she talked about other things that made her feel rejected. After a while, though, she never mentioned them...I guess you became the handier source of what she decided was abuse.

I would have loved for you and *** to have worked through all your issues and both come out healthy, but I am glad to see that you, at least, are taking some positive steps toward becoming a more emotionally healthy person.

I wish you all the best, and don't be such a stranger!

Shaking my head here. Interesting conclusion since *** isn't the one here complaining about her life, her STBX, her life as a victim...

There are two psychological profiles here, and the peanut gallery is ignoring some vital clues.

My guess: Patriot's a bit stroke-deprived, since he comes here and sure enough, he gets stroked - wonderful man that he is, and the focal point is poor mistreated Patriot... It's still the victim cycle going on, but I read through him then and I read through him now.

Patriot - I didn't come to my conclusions by what your STBX said or posted about you; but what YOU SAID and SAY.

And Mr. and Mrs. Wonderings - I know Patriot appreciates your friendship and your comfort. Someday soon, the enmeshment with his STBX will be severed. And then what will he do? Why will he still seek out emotional strokes for his suffering? Perhaps you'll still gang up on his X for old times' sake to help him feel better? How sad, that is what life will revolve around for him. I thought better of the two of you - you've been my A#1 dynamic duo MB couple and your advice hardly ever jangled with straight-shooting marriage builder advice. But what you've posted isn't advice for marital or PERSONAL recovery. It's pile-on-time to crush an absent STBXW. Pretty nasty when you think about it.

He and *** were definitely toxic for each other. But toxicity wasn't one way here. Patriot gave as good as he got. And looks like, he's still giving it. But he's best at getting others in on it too.

I'm just really uncomfortable with the piling on gang-up on someone who's not here to speak for herself. And the astonishing attacks and frenzy on someone who I haven't read ANYTHING here except from one side of the conflict that would warrant such attacks.

Please stop.

Patriot - if you want help with your own issues and focusing on your own personal recovery, fine. Please post here and get that help. As I see it, you gave and are probably still giving the toxic stuff as much as you say you are getting. It's the nature of the battle between the two of you. So if you want to get better, and heal from that toxic relationship, you have to get the focus off her. And get your friends' focus off her as well - and onto you.

Because if you don't, the next relationship you have, will look pretty much like this one you've had with ****. Because the toxin is still in you.

Well first, for the record, the ONLY thing that I've said on this thread up until this post is a simple "Hi, good to see you"...Then I left to run errands for our dd10's birthday slumber party...So, WOW to this post addressing me, well kinda shocking...

HOW.EV.ER...I DO agree with Mr. W's assessment of the situation...

KA, you really have no idea...oh man...the betrayal mixed with outright lies from her that many people here suffered the consequences for...The safety of other BSs put in jeopardy...valuable members leaving MB due to her lies and idle gossip...ugh...there is just so much...it seriously makes me sick...

Finally, I'm all for Pat getting help for himself here and leaving her out of it...I do agree with you there - I think that the initial stuff had to be put to rest first though...

Mrs. W

P.S. Stillhere...Thank you for the kind words!

Sorry Patriot, but I see the same thing.

I remember posting to you a few times, awhile back, and I remember that I felt like pulling my hair out back then. You have this uncanny knack to play the victim card, in a very subtle way, and at the same time, claim you've done everything you could for the relationship.



My guess, from what I read of your posts, is that you reluctantly and resentfully did some things for the sake of the marriage, but you didn't do them out of love/care/healing for ****. You did them to stop your pain, not hers. My guess is that you let her suffer for awhile (correct me if I'm wrong) and did a few things here and there begrudgingly. If that's the case, I can see why she was always hurt and distrustful of you.

I saw it as a push/pull relationship. When you finally did something for the relationship, pulling her back in from withdrawal, I'm sure it was hard for her to appreciate it after she suffered waiting for it so long. My guess is that she might have felt a little safer with that once she got over her resentment of the issue, then maybe tried to move a little closer to intimacy with you, and then you would push her away again. I think you were afraid of the intimacy. That's what I saw back then.

I don't have the time or the energy to dig up your old posts, but I see what K.A. sees. You were very much half the problem, imo.

And considering the way you're letting her get bashed on this thread, it's apparent to me that you still have not grown as a man, and STILL do not respect her.

I totally agree that you're here to get your ego stroked.

Yours and ***'s relationship was one that I followed some back then because you were so much like my husband. He had everyone thinking what a great guy he was. But my kids, family, and I know the real person, not the image he portrays to everyone else.

Fortunately, my H has done some growing, slowly over these last 3 yrs, and mostly over the last few months. But in my perception, he still plays the victim card some. It's not nearly as bad now as it was though. Even I had to snap myself out of the victim mentality, and I was the victim. He's finally starting to take OWNERSHIP on some things. I've had to grow too, mostly in patience, forgiveness, letting go, etc. But I can tell you now, our recovery would have been SO MUCH BETTER, MORE HEALING, AND FASTER if he had implemented the rules of protection, lovingly and without resentment, in a reasonable time after d-day.

My feeling is that *** never felt that you valued her, based on your actions and words. Now she is trying to value herself, by getting out of the emotional neglect, because you never would value her, imo.

Yes, I am speaking through my filters, based on my experience with a husband that was a lot like you. I am biased, but that doesn't mean I am wrong.

This is an anonymous forum Patriot. Care to tell me if anything I said is right? If you take ownership of some of this stuff, that is where YOUR healing will start.

Just FYI....I'm having major surgery in about 10 days and have to clean house, do tons of stuff to get ready to be out of work for a few weeks, and christmas shop. So I won't have much time to come back and comment much on here. Aren't you glad?

Hi, me again, I can't sleep. I'm going to be hating it in the morning!

Patriot, I know my post was a bit harsh. I sincerely mean it when I said "I guess", because I don't live with you guys.

However, like I said, my H sounds a lot like you, so I know that there are probably some very loveable qualities about you as well. And because of that, when my H was being anything but loving, it was crazy making to me. So frustrating!

I actually came right back on here because I want to learn from you too, even if it's just one reply to this post, if you care to reply to me.

I want to ask you about this.......



How long did it take you to understand? I'm guessing it came in pieces over a period of time? And if it took a long time for some of it, why do you think it took awhile? Was there something keeping you from wanting to "get it"? I don't know if I worded that right. I am in no way trying to put you down, I'm just curious about your thought process through all of this.

Even though I don't feel that my H really values me, I think he does more now, in only the last month, than he ever did. It's not like I've been a picnic through all of this, but he is starting to see things now he didn't see before. I don't know, and I'd like to know, and I'm trying to figure this out in counseling with him.

I personally feel like he has/does hold resentments towards me (and unfairly I believe), and didn't want to take ownership of some stuff. But I'm not in his head, so I can't say for sure why recovery has been so difficult. That's my educated guess from living with him, and watching him.

Maybe I can learn something from you? I just ask that it's straight from the heart, and not from your head. Does that make sense?

I just wanted to add my two cents, I know probably no one cares, but...MB is kinda what I got right now....I feel like maybe I am gettin into something that isnt my business, because I wasnt her back when Pat was on here or ***...so I am kinda an outsider on this...

1. If I am not mistaken, dont Mr and Mrs Wondering (ahh, so cute) know firtshand what *** did to Pat and vice versa...so I would think they know more about both *** and Pat than just what was posted on her, am I right?

2. Yeah maybe Pat needs his ego stroked a little right now, I know that I am guilty of coming on here for that occasionally...

3. We bash waynerds all the time only knowing one side of the story and anyway I from the outside of the situation really did not see any bashing of ***. Just some facts stated and how she had a very hard time getting past Pats A and about stuff she did...

4. I feel sympathy for both *** and Pat. Maybe *** did go a little "crazy" after the A...I know that I did...and I did and said some horrible things to WH because of it. My WH still calls me "sick" and "crazy". Now I resent it, but soon after Dday I may have earned that title....

5. Pat is on here tellin it from his perspective...we usu hear the BS perspective...Pat is on here for Pat..I am on her for me..so of course you may hear it as he is bashing ****...but I think he is just tellin it as he sees it, ya know? He is on here for help right now, not ***.

Uhhh 6. Pat did the right thing and I take it as that he did resent all the stuff he did to try and repair his M...but not because he didnt want to do them but I feel it was because his M still didnt get better from it, ya know what i mean?

7. I hate waynerds but may have a soft spot in my heart for Former waynerds...

Okay Im done with my rant..sorry if I stepped on any toes or misread the situation. but it is just my perspective...You can all yell at me now.



And Mopey I love that screename wish I picked it, ha ha ha Mopey and then it gives me a picture in my mind of what you might look like and its funny. Okay my sense of humor is a little off lately.

Mrs. W - thank you for the correction - It was Mr. W's post that set me off.

You weren't here during the **edit** days on the board. It was crazy-making at an art-form level. **Edit** posts reminded me a lot of Patriot. **edit** on the other hand, reminded me a lot of ****edit****.

I've watched/studied human behavior for a long time, both professionally and as a child of parents like this.

Let's suppose for a moment that **edit** completely and totally misrepresented what was going on in their home, Patriot's behavior ON THE BOARDS alarmed me. He hasn't been entirely truthful about what's been going on IRL and that was apparent in what he posted last year and before that. It was Patriot himself who posted contradictions and button-pushing crazymaking crap. He wasn't the first to publicly gaslight his wife, and he won't be the last.

That's why I bring the focus back to Patriot. He complains that **edit** is such a victim and gets a lot of validation from you and others about that, but what's this thread about, if not his "victimization" at the hands of "**edit**"????

Seriously? Isn't he playing the victim card himself? And so well that you guys don't call him on it and help him get on with his life?

Listen KA, I like and respect you very much...I would not want this situation to cause any hard feelings between us, so this is likely the last I'll say...First, we are not saying that Patriot is "perfect" - far from it...Mr. W and I saw A LOT more than what was revealed here...We actively tried to help Pat & STBXW away from MB for a long time - We met them only once, but there are others from here that saw them more than that - had them stay with them in their homes (or vice versa) - they really got to see things up close and personal...FWIW, those people have all draw the same conclusions that Mr. W and I have...

I leave you with one last tidbit that is quite telling, imo...After attending the MB Weekend Seminar, STBXW demanded that Patriot have NO CONTACT with KIM from MARRIAGE BUILDERS!!! (Kim is one of the coaches that does follow-up after an MB Weekend Seminar)...Really, in light of that and other things, I think the man [Patriot] did all that he could...

Mrs. W

I read the original post from Patriot with some surprise. I read the subsequent supportive posts and wondered if I'd somehow missed the critical scene in the film. Are we all talking about the same Patriot and ***?

Because I remember a marriage where the wife had a traumatic background and knew herself to be chronically fearful, and a husband who came across as articulate, persuasive, destructively independent and with a huge chip on his shoulder about his father's remarriage and the stepmother who was inflicted on him as a child.

I just can't recall the version of Patriot who laboured long and hard to make **** feel safe. I do remember a man who seemed frequently angry at not getting his own way. I do remember a version of Patriot who accepted a job without discussing it with **** (which I don't remember him denying at the time, so I'm confused by this new account). I do remember a man who failed to disclose a bunch of things on this forum until they were brought up by ****.

I am baffled by the things that are being said about ****. She came across as an intelligent, anxious, over-thinking woman who was unsure of her judgement and very, very worried about emotional and financial security for herself and her daughter. She didn't want to inflict another marital trauma on her daughter. She didn't come across to me as a nutcase.

The 'end' of the relationship was dramatic and not that surprising given the nature of the spouses. I don't find it unbelievable that Patriot might have behaved with force towards her - I always had a sense of his simmering rage that came briefly to the surface every now and then in his posts. I don't find it unbelievable that **** cleared out the house - she expressed her fear of being left with nothing many times on this forum.

These were two people who should never have been anywhere near each other. Whatever psychological dynamic was going on, it wasn't healthy. I think they're better apart.

At the time, there was something toxic going on among posters here. Some posters were intensely negative to ****, including MEDC and Bigkahuna, for reasons that were not apparent from what had been posted on the forum. There was no obvious reason for the taking of sides, given what was publicly available.

So I would advise newer posters to proceed with caution here. Patriot was not the saintly victim he is portraying himself as here - and like Kayla I am going by the many, many posts he wrote, not what **** said about him. He is very articulate, and is capable of using that to manipulate. **** was not, to my knowledge, crazy. She was nervy and fearful. She should not have married him. But I'm not sure anyone else should go near him either.

Patriot, you're right about one thing. You need to work on yourself. But without **** to highlight your dark places, I'm not sure you're well-placed to do it. You seem to have come back to an admiring gallery, which is not really a lot of use to you.

TA

Recently? What is recently? Are you actually dating people before the D is final?

You know Patriot, if I were you and I truly wanted to help myself, I would make use of your access to Dr. Harley on the private forums...Let him help you along in your personal recovery...I think that would be the wisest course of action...

Mrs. W

Yes, Pat, for the above you deserve to be smacked senseless...No doubt about it...

Mrs. W

KA, So far, what I have typed has been different than just complaining about my life... I thought. I have stated facts, as I see them. Which is really the only looking glass I have isn't it? We could go through what I have said and sharpshoot all of it for meaning, because honestly, I may have an odd world-view about some things. I am willing to look at it and grow. The questions I asked FF were genuine. The responses I gave were what I had. Was that, on its on merit, garbage? Totally missed the boat and all that?


stroke deprived is not really true. What is true is I wanted reconnect with some folks that know me and talk about some things to do now in order to stay away from this in the future. I already have ideas on this, so I am not coming into the conversation without any ideas. I have lots of them. I am not crying for help. I am testing to see if there is more than I have already figured. It seems completely plausible that recalling history would occur during this kind of thing.

oh.. and I am far too smart to believe I would come here, to this place(or anywhere for that matter) and get nothing but praise. Mulan was the first to post a certainly counter opinion. I am free to debate it if I wish. She asserted it, so she can defend it. That said, I still respect her opinions and have not filed her away in the [censored] insane folder. I imagine there are folks on this board others have filed away as "not worthy to listen to". I am still listening to Mulan.. and you for that matter.


I suppose it would be if what was said was false. Mr.Ws list is correct. As I am still in the divorce process, this is still relevent. And as I said, there is more. And of course she has her story. I can assure you I am not in contact with her, so she should be freely available to post and refute. I know she has friends here as well.


And what is the toxin? That is an honest question. Did I miss it in something you wrote? Please let me know.

mopey, I'm not here to portray an image. I am on a marriage building site in the middle of complete failure of mine. THat can't look good. Frankly I don't care. As I said in the beginning, if there is more to learn, then I would like to explore it. At the point I am in now. WHich is different than trying to recover with her.

Maybe I am a lot like your husband. I was certainly reluctant to leave my job in the beginning of all this. But I did it. In fact, there were several things after the initial period after DDay that I did all kinds of things. Was I reluctant? On some of it. Not on other things. Really means little now, because the marriage is over. I was fully half the problem as I see it. I caused the initial problem, but she accepted her half by choice. Again, means little now, because its over.

I guess the point is this. I seem to be not very good at recovery. Terrible at it probably. I'm perfectly fine with that. OMG WHY! you might ask. You may tell me I missed the whole point. That I am (your derogatory remark here). To which I counter with this. I committed infidelity prior to marriage. I own that. I did not contact OW again. I did not find a new OW(and if you believe I am a big baby self-soother... seems I would be at higher risk to do this). I never cheated again. So, as I see it, I don't ever need to be good at MB Infidelity Recovery. Because I won't ever cheat again. Certainly other parts of the program are very worthwile and brilliant. This part I dont have to know.

I did value *****. I also valued having a job(didn't have to be the one where OW was). I never figured that one out. How to make her feel more important to me than my job. Mind you I only worked the agreed 8 hours a day(agreed with her). I did not go to any functions without her. I report often through the day. I still never figured out how to balance this issue correctly. But, I believe the issue was caused by the cheating(well duh), so going forward, not cheating seems to nip this issue in the bud as well.

well I babbled.. but mopey, I don't know what to tell you that you are right on, other than I may be like your husband. Maybe you could gleen something from that.

I don't know.

Tell you what... I just had a change of thought. My situation is really over as far as infidelity goes. No need to recover now. But I know some things about MB... maybe I can help that way.

And beyond that, I would be willing to talk about any of the issues with me. I'll stop defending. Not sure all of it is defending... but I have the right to refute asertions made about me. Be that as is may...I will answer constructive questions

so Mopey, to answer your second post, at first, it took me a few weeks to agree to leaving my job and a few months to get it done. After DDay.

The issue for me was that working is something I have to do. And doing it from home is not what I wanted.

In teh beginning, I did things I did not want to do in order to appease. I was not happy to leave my job. I was not happy to sell my truck. and so on. I did it because I accepted it was part of the consequence. These things that reminded her needed to go. I however, could not connect a new job with her fear and be happy to leave it in order to again make her feel safe. In my mind, nothing had happened there... so why was I leaving it?

Here is a question a BS could ask themselves. "Am I demending this because it deals with the affair?" or "Am I demanding this because I am afraid"

if its 3 years later, the person you are with has not cheated again, and you have been watching them like a hawk... why do they need to leave a perfectly good job that nothing wrong has occured at?

So my problem is this, which I am freely entitled to.

BS's don't get a blank check for the remainder of the relationship.

period. My experience. My filter. whatever.

Anytime a BS is going to attempt this sort of behavior, I have a problem with it.

Certainly, the WS has most if not all the work in the beginning. but if the BS chooses to stay, they accept some things.

after some time, the equality should return... my view. My take. blast it all you wish.

I would ask that those interesting in taking issue with what I said at least use the facts, and not additional assumptiuons. I did say at first the BS bassically gets what they want. over time... the situation should equalize again... and if it is not, then the BS is just as responsibile for figuring that out and moving on.

I am sure I missed some questions... sorry

" I never cheated again"

Really? You have recently dated while married.

ugh... know I remember why I stayed away...

well I am obviously so articulate, I have nothing but support here... pfft.

Anyway, for those wishing to accuse me domestic abuse, you will find not ONE recorded instance of it. Not one. I always wonder about people making accusations about things like this without proof. Geez.. If I had a SINGLE documented instance of abuse, I wouldn't be bringing it up. No police reports. No doctors bills. No nothing. I have all the legs I want to stand on here.

And if you consider *** an intelligent, not crazy, capable and so on, then would she report the mean patriot just once? Given the number of years we were together? Just one instance of a documented incident? Or does fear get played here? She had a 20yo D and a 18 yo S in the house with us. Should they be able to say something?

I won't defend myself to you people. Well, anymore than you give me reason to in my opinion. Make an accusation, I will refute it if I am able. I will agree with it if I am not. I am reasonable... regardless of opinion.

and when did I ever claim saintliness?

I see that the assumptions of posters here are alive and well.

which is fine.

I still have something productive to do here.

for the record, I have not called **** evil here. Her actions of late have been factually represented.

And as far as my dark places?? WHat are you talking about TA?

I am willing to go on record as one who suffered from STBXW's betrayal. (I am not one of the ones who met her in person.) At least one person on this board, very dear to me since the very beginning of my time on here, hasn't been willing to speak to me since the incident occurred. I was personally misrepresented in a way that obviously wounded this wonderful person deeply.

I am also someone who has repeatedly called Pat on his unwillingness, at first, to do some of the basic things needed for any BS to feel safe. Whatever her reactions to things over time, they were things he should have done immediately and willingly. He didn't, and got hammered for it again and again, on MB and off. (Both Wonderings used their twin sledgehammers on a regular basis. Mrs. W's is pink and really cute, BTW.) I'm very happy that he seems to be understanding better now.

Agree with Mrs. W....this thread needs to be about Pat and the improvements he needs make, also agree that a certain amount of discussion about his STBXW had to be dealt with and gotten out of the way.

I don't think anyone who had seen all that the W's have said to Pat over the years would think they were just "taking his side", and buying into his "gaslighting". Even with the small fraction I saw, I don't think that's what is going on. He's gotten his butt handed to him again and again, but kept coming back for more. Some of that seems to be getting through, and I'm glad.

You have an interesting way with words.

You state that YOU filed for divorce. When asked why, you explain that she filed for it first, in spirit. You just accepted her rejection. The filing was not a positive act on your part; she was active and you conceded.

You even find Biblical support for your filing.

Perhaps she "dragged out" the divorce because she did not want to be divorced?

What were you trying to mediate over? Since you were the one to file, what were you trying to achieve in mediation?

I have dated. rarely, but I have. I hadn't thought of it from this perspective. I came at this from the "foregone conclusion" view point. I appreciate your input.

Patriot, I'm struggling with:


with *****'s post of August 08:


Are you saying that ***** made this up? Or that it happened, but never made it to an actual charge?

TA

what is my interesting way? I use english in the manner a none english-degreed person would use it, as I see it. My degree is in CS..

I did file for divorce.

I did fight internally about the biblical perspective of it.

If she did not want to be divorced, then why was it a regular subject broached by her for a long time? I have to derive that it is what she wanted.

Mediation is a way to keep from doing an expensive, nasty trial, isn't it? Don't people to no contest divorce all the time?

Very common viewpoint. I might have even bought into it at one time. Never again.

Your primal flaw, repeatedly.

Same thinking permitted cheating "before" marriage vows.

Same thinking permitted "Biblical" filing for divorce.

Your pattern is repeated.

ok. How do you recommend a change to this pattern? I would assert that this marriage is over. So how to go forward in your opinion?

If you are here looking for suggestions for self improvement, perhaps take self inventory on the ways you've used "technicalities" to get your needs met in dishonest ways.

I recall that incedent, mostly. We were having a verbal argument about something, which I don't recall. I guess she didn't like how it was going. She started to say she was scared. She called the police. My son was here at the time and I had to grab what I could at the moment and him. I took what I could and left, like clothes and things. I spent the ride explaining to my son what happened.

I did not touch her, nor had I. Yet again, there is and was no police reports, medical reports... nothing. So you can derive what you wish. My assertion is she did it as a power move. You can formulate your own opinion.

I am not a wife abuser. My evidence is the complete lack of any recorded incident of it. Never once a hospital bill, police report or otherwise related to anything I did to her. Because I never hit her. I never physically hurt her.

And now that I seem to be polarizing several folks here, possibly I should simply leave again.. I certainly did not desire to cause a rift with people here. I think the rehashing of my marriage isn't all that fruitful, taking a look at this. hmmm.. I guess I will stop posting here again. I mean I really don't know what else to do at this moment. So I will leve it here unless there is something else I need to address. (shrug)

Most people (including me) do not have English degrees. How does your degree matter?

I meant saying this:


Saying that in spirit, she filed, when in fact, you did.

You must have filed because you wanted to. Why not say that? Why say that it is because she walked away from the marriage?

Most people (including me) do not have English degrees. How does your degree matter?

I meant saying this:


Saying that in spirit, she filed, when in fact, you did.

and found that, because she left the marriage (to YOUR mind), there was Biblical justification for you to accept that.

I'm sure it was explained many times here on MB that she was insecure in the marriage. She might have been completely wrong to doubt you, but she regularly broached divorce because she was unhappy.

Why would the trial be nasty?

Maybe you didn't see Pep's questions, since she likely posted as you were typing the above reply.

I for one would like to see those addressed. I think they could be most helpful, even critical, to your personal recovery.

**** was never crazy.

**** is a beautiful, deeply loving, but deeply fearful woman with a history of marrying very abusive men.

**** struggled daily, hourly even with her fears and her drive to find emotional stability and health. The healthier **** became, the more Pat's passive aggression escalated.

How many times has he posted on here just after having admitted lying to **** about something? This is the pattern...he acts out, he gets caught, he then posts here as a victim, and everyone feels sorry for poor Pat - why doesn't **** give him a break?

Maybe he never got a break because he always felt his own interests were more important than her safety? Maybe because he broke every rule in the MB book and *****edit*****

When she reacted badly to betrayal by him, over and over and over, he punished her by posting here. Obviously, something has happened that he feels the need to punch her buttons again...

The relationship of a abused individual to the abuser is not much different psychologically than that of an alcholic or drug addict to their codependent spouses.

I found that there was a pretty interesting pattern to the addiction/abuse backgrounds of those who defended Pat and called ****crazy.

I find it horrifying that so many can claim that ****'s claim of rape was a false accusation.

The only 2 people who know the truth are Pat and ****.

No wonder women are afraid to report rape - ****edit*****

******edit******

I was thinking the same thing. My STBXH talked about divorce for months. I finally filed. Now he is saying he will drag the D out because he never really wanted the D in the first place.
Where in the Bible does it actually say that???? I read the Bible and counsel with my pastor and I've never hear this.

I don't suppose I have anything constructive to give on this site at the moment.

I did not mean to stir up so many folks.

I stand by these facts. I never physically abused ****. Never. That anyone here would have the gall to accuse me of that , rape or anything else without so much as a shred of proof is appalling.

Maybe you don't like me. Thats fine. I accept that. In no way did I ask you to stop. And in no way does it give you reason to accuse me, judge me and determine my guilt over anything you have zero proof of.

If you are so inclined, drop me an email. We can talk about it away from here. If not, then not.

I will step out so you fine folks can return to helping people that just found out and need your help.

There was never an attack on *****, physical or sexual. Without a single instance of proof, you should be ashamed of yourself for buying it.

I ask the mods lock this thread. I'll go.

Locked at OP's request.