Hi,
I am sitting here alone and honestly don't know how much more I can take. I have probably done everything wrong since I discovered my wife's affair at the end of July. I don't know what to do anymore.

My story:

Me 42 yrs old
Wife 39 years old
Married 17 years
OM 29 years old


2009 was definitely the worst year for our marriage....since the first of the year, we barely spoke, when we did speak we were arguing, no emotional connection. Around June, my wife started making comments about a guy at work. How he was nice looking, he turned her on, made suggestive comments, etc. At the time I blew it off, she has self esteem issues related to her weight (never bothered me)and has made similar comments in the past.

Starting aroud the first of July, she started talking about moving out and getting a divorce. Again, once in awhile we had gone through this, so I blew it off. Around the last week of July I just had a feeling something wasn't right. I checked her cell phone bill and noticed a number that kept coming up for a lot of long phone calls. That night I asked her about it, she said it was a female friend at work. Even showed me the listing for the number in her phone. I told her I was going to call the number tomorrow and see what happens. She said fine. I went to another room, and she came in 20 mins later and said it was the guy from work she'd been talking about. She insisted there was no affair, they were just friends. I blew up at first and she apologized, we ended up having sex that night and I thought that was the end of it. 2 days later it hit me like a ton of bricks, the woman I loved was doing this behind my back and I started falling apart.

By the first week of August I was on Lexapro and Xanax and a complete basket case. We planned a trip away with our 2 daughters, 18 and 15, for the end of August. The day before the trip, my wife had to go to the doctor for routine blood work. While she was gone, I checked her cell phone records and she had called the OM the night before. I called her and she angrily denied it, then angrily admitted it and accused me of spying on her. I left that day and when I finally answered her phone call, I said why are calling me, you don't care and she said I don't but the girls do. I couldn't believe she said that. We talked for 2 hours on the phone, she insisted there was no physical affair, but admitted she "liked" him. We decided to go on vacation and it was great, she said she had been stupid and it was over. When we got back, we went to lunch and I thought we had an honest talk. I apologized for being so distant and told her that if she had been having a physical affair I would forgive herr. She insisted she had not, but opened up and said she been falling in love with him, but was over it and loved me more than ever. I also brought up the fact that I had checked our health insurance online and it didn't show her going to the doctors in months. She said she had no idea...I believed her.

That night, everything went wrong. She left her email up when she got up and my oldest daughter saw it and came and got me. It was a message from the OM that simply said "so how are you" When my wife came back I asked her about it, and she said she didn;t know why he sent it to her, and she had never gotten an email from him before. I had her search her account with his name and of course dozens of emails came up. She started crying, I said "you've been having an affair with him, haven't you" and she nodded her head yes. Then I said "you've been sleeping with him while you've been sleeping with me?" again she nodded yes. I didn't know my daughter, who had left the toom, was hiding around the corner. She came out calling my wife a whore and other terrible things trying to stick up for me. We both left the house, my wife started calling me immediately saying I "misunderstood" what she was saying...there was no physical affair, she wasn't nodding her head she was just crying. I called the OM and he also denied any affair.I stayed away that night, but I came back the next morning and just asked her calmly who she wanted to be with. She immediately said me. We agreed to immediate marriage counseling.

First session September 4. Our first visit was joint, next ones were alone then we came together again to discuss things then we had another solo appt. I told our therapist about the supposed doctors appointment and that I thought she was having a physical affair. He basically insisted that he had interrogated my wife and in his opinion I needed to stop obsessing over it and get on with making our marriage better. We went to counseling through Oct.9 and seemed to be doing great. I never felt so close to my wife, she seemed very happy...I thought I had been given the second chance I probably didn't deserve.

We had a great Thanksgiving and leading up to Christmas was great too. However, 2 things kept bothering me. One, she still worked with him. She offered to quit, but we are currently shopping for a new house and with jobs being the way they are we were afraid it would screw things up. Second, he is one of her facebook friends. When I asked her about it, she said everyone at their work are friends. I started felling uneasy again and out a keylogger on our PC on Dec. 19. I waited until after Christmas, which by the way was the best Christmas we ever had together and as a family. Looked at the keylogger, got her email account password, and looked at her emails. Couldn't find anything and I started to feel foolish. Then I looked in her sent mail and there it was...an email from her to him dated Oct. 9 saying how hard it was to see him that day to tell him it was over, how she loved him with all her heart and would always love him, how she hoped they would be together one day, how he was a great kisser and fantastic in bed, etc.

I barely made it through the day until we were together and....I didn't say anything...I couldn't. I was and am terrified of what will happen if I come right out and confront her.

She could tell something was wrong and we sat up and cried for hours about all that we had allowed to happen. Finally I said I don't want you to confirm or deny this, I just want you to know that I am so sorry that I caused you to do what you did. She said it wasn't my fault it was hers and said she was sorry.

The next day I sent her an email that basically said if she still loved someone else that I would understand and I wanted her to be happy. Her reply to me said she wanted no one but me and she said whatever I had done to her, she had done far worse to me.

Which, finally, brings us to the present. Everything seems fine, we are talking about renewing our wedding vows. This whole experience has shown me how much I love my wife and I believe she loves me.....

I can't stop thinking of the details of the affair, it is making me physically and mentally ill. My wife still hasn't out and out admitted a physical affair, but, honestly, I'm not sure I want her to. She still works with this guy, but I just took her to dinner on her lunch break and nobody acted weird when I came in and she introduced me to several people I hadn't met yet...he is still a facebook friend of hers...

Like I said in the beginning, I feel totally lost. I love my wife so much, but I don't want to be a fool either...

Thanks so much for taking the time to read this, I know it's long, but it just kept coming...

Do you want to recover your marriage? If you do, then the first step will be for her end ALL CONTACT wth the OM. And I do mean ALL. If she continues to see him at work and on facebook, the affair will continue and this will be hopeless. There will be no recovery unless all contact ends.

Will she end contact with the OM?

from Requirements for Recovery:

continued here

Jcb, I may be one of the first to respond to your post. I'm sorry you're here, but this is where you need to be. As it's the weekend, responses may be slow in coming. But you need to keep coming back even still.

I'd recommend reading everything you can on this site, and also recommend you get a copy of the book, "Surviving an Affair" (available here or at your local book seller). You need to understand the basic principles of MB so that you can act and work toward your stated goal.

I'm going to tell you right out that it's very likely your wife is still having her affair. It sounds to me like she may be "cake eating" (wanting her cake and eating it, too). You should read up and understand Plan A and Plan B. If you want your marriage to survive, you must immediately do the following:

• Cease supporting the Affair in any way, shape or form
• Protect yourself and your children
• SNOOP SNOOP SNOOP - find out if she's still active in the A and if so, know that she's "foggy"
• To that end, buy a keylogger, a voice-activated recorder (VAR) and even hire a P.I. if necessary
• Realize that she will have to quit her job and cancel her Facebook account.
• When you have the proof (and are working Plan A) EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE. Go "nuclear" on this. Affairs thrive in secrecy and fantasy. Exposing them to the light of day is like presenting a cross to a vampire.

This is just the beginning. I'm sorry you find yourself in this position. Fortunately, you've found the best web site online to help you with this, if you let that help come. Start reading by clicking on the Most Popular Links to the right, and then pay attention to the "veterans" when they come aboard.

Ah, I see MelodyLane has already responded. Jcb, she's one of the best. LISTEN TO HER AND DO WHAT SHE SAYS. Get to work!

Is the OM married? If so, have you told his wife about the affair?

He is not married, but has a girlfriend.

Thanks for all the replies!

jcb, has she been told about the affair? Have you spoken to her? This might kill the affair and keep it killed *IF* your wife leaves the job. If she doesnt leave the job this is hopeless anyway.

Thank you, Fred!

I have asked, she just insists there is nothing going on anymore. I want to believe her so badly, I just can't believe she could say or do the things she's doing with me if this was still going on...

jcb, you are kidding, right? Your wife has demonstrated to you that she is completely untrustworthy by lying and cheating on you. To trust the word of such a person is foolish. And will lead to the demise of your marriage. Believing an untrustworthy person is foolish.

I know it probably sounds foolish, and I don't know why I feel this way, but I don't want to lose my wife....I am TERRIFIED to do anything that might push her away....forcing her to quit might do just that.

Yes, I did.
I KNOW you're right....but I KNOW where it will lead....another argument, more pain, my god I sound like a hostage with stockholm syndrome...pathetic...

We have been doing the romance part,,,little gifts to each other, dinner for two, date night, etc....

On top of all this, she comes home from work in 45 minutes, and I feel bad for talking about this behind her back....

No, her continuing to work there is going to destroy your marriage. Her affair will destroy your marriage. Her affair will not end until she ends all contact with her lover. Your feelings are not truth and are leading you wrong. Your marriage will never recover as long as she works there.

I have never seen a marriage recover in the 9 years I have been where the affairees stayed in contact.

If she won't leave her job, then you have no chance.

After all these months of working together after I found out about there involvement, how do I tell her to leave her job now? She doesn't know I know about the physical affair (although I thought she admitted it without saying it in our email exchange. If I tell her about the email, I give up the keylogger as a tool...

You can tell her that you are willing to work on this marriage if she leaves the job. Her going to see her lover every day at work is profoundly disrespectful to you and completely prevents any hope of recovery. Tell her there is no other way. And tell her you know that she went to bed with the OM so she can stop lying about it. If she asks how you know, tell her you have had her "watched" and explain that is ALL you will tell her.

You need to stop being fearful, Sir, or you are not going to make it. Your marriage will survive her temporary anger, it will not survive this affair. And if you don't get her out of there, she will never withdraw from him. You are looking at YEARS of this in your future if you don't get on the stick and start standing up for your marriage.

Who is the girlfriend? Do you have her phone # and did you save the email where they discuss having sex?

JCB,

The keylogger has much value and should not be jeopardized.

You have much fear (ie. "terrified"). Fear is your enemy. This affair is your enemy. Listen to Mel. Mrs. JCB has not earned your trust. The little gifts and date nights could very well be her attempts at "putting out that fire" before resuming with OM.

You have to ask yourself which is more important, the new house or your marriage. If the former, get the house and wonder every day what's going on with Mrs. JCB. If the latter, tell her to quit and put the effort into repairing your marriage.

TB

Melody,
I know you're right.
I hate being afraid, I've never been like this before.
If I confront her, and if she explodes (which she will) I will have to leave the house, at least for that night. After the rollercoaster they've already been through, what do I tell the kids? In your opinion, what would happen next? Would my wife finally wake up or is there a possibility she'll really leave? Should I really tell the OM's girlfriend...I've never met her...should I tell my wife's mother..doesn't that cause irreperable harm to any future reconcilitaion?

Thanks...

I printed the email, and saved it. I don't have her phone number but I could easily get it..I own an IT company, kind of an original hacker...haha...

jcb, we are all afraid, but you cannot let it stand in the way of your marriage. You don't have the luxury of catering to your fear right now, you have a marriage to save. You are going to have to buck up here, Sir.


No, you don't leave. If she explodes, you pat her on the head, tell her you are sure sorry she is upset and ask her if she would like a potato chip. But you don't leave. IT IS YOUR HOUSE, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! You CHOOSE to act like a man, not a scared little boy. Good grief, Sir, you are a little old to get so scared at some womans angry outburst.


The truth. That their mother is having an affair with a man from work. You don't lie to kids to whitewash the crimes of their parents.


You should tell everyone. EVERYONE. WITHOUT WARNING. Your parents, her parents, the OM's girlfriend, your children, your pastor. Affairs thrive on secrecy. Your marriage can survive her temporary anger, it can't survive this affair.

It is the AFFAIR that will cause "irreparable harm to any future reconconcilation," not your exposure.

sweet!

jcb, why don't you sleep on it tonight and then come back tomorrow and we can help you develop a strategy?

She "explodes" because it gets the necessary response -- she wins and you head for zee hills. Since you talk about YOU having to leave the house "at least for the night", I'm guessing you've seen this scenario played out in the past.

Your W is using fear against you.

Remember, SHE is the one who had the affair.

She MUST end ALL CONTACT with OM. She MUST provide complete transparency (ie. cell phone, e-mail). If she has nothing to hide, she will give you transparency. If she doesn't provide, you have your handy, dandy keylogger in place.

TB

This has really worked...telling kids, parents, other people about an affair and it has caused no lasting scars? Our therapist said one of the biggest mistakes was having the kids involved...that she was still their mother and shouldn't be degraded in front of her kids...

Thanks to all,
I will take Melody's advice and sleep on it and come back tomorrow.

Thank you so much!

Is it possible for you to put aside your fear and stick to a deliberate, well thought out strategy to save your marriage?

Affairs are always a highly emotional crisis situation, but I have observed that the ones who make it are the ones who can put aside their emotions and act with deliberation and stick to a STRATEGY.

The ones that can't control their emotions usually don't make it.

Good night, friend!

jcb

Your WW should write a letter of apology to the girlfrined. Besides you and your kids, she should be included in the taken advantage of list.

At least this girl has the oportunity to run like Flash Gordon from this OM creepo. She deserves to know the truth about her life, and her BF.

I know you are probably not worried about anything (except you wife's anger at you, apparently) but if I were in the in the GF shoes I would want to know. She can also be a help in the continuing CONTACT relm.

I hope she splits and saves herself years of misery.
Good Luck to you. Listen to ML

The therapist has no idea what she is talking about and is untrained in this arena. Most therapists and marriage counselors don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage, much less understand the dynamics of adultery. Traditional marriage counselers have an 84% FAILURE rate and have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. This is why Dr Harley stands out from the rest of the crowd.

Lying to children is harmful to them and harmful to your wife. Whitewashing the wrongdoing of parents does not make children feel safe or happy. It makes them feel confused and teaches them to be dishonest. It is lies and adultery that hurt children, not the truth.

Dr Willard Harley is a clinical psychologist with 35+ years experience and the founder of Marriage Builders. Here is what he has to say:

[ here

and about telling children:

here

Melody and all,
Yes, I think I can formulate a plan and stick to it. What I'm living right now is a dishonest life, where I avoid upsetting my wife at all costs.
Today she is home all day. I work until 5. No chance of her going anywhere, th e kids are home...but I know she'll be on the PC all day (Farmville addict).
It will be interesting to read the keylogger files today.....

Thanks to all and looking forward to hearing your thoughts on a plan of action to end this once and for all!

J,
I'm glad you came to the right decision. I believe you already know about exposure - that is your best weapon to impact and possible end the A. A's are meant to be secret - APs don't like being exposed. Below is he plan you need to start implementing. Ask questions, we're here to help. Sorry for what you are going through.

Plan A&B
Plan A & Plan B

Carrot & Stick
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2296499#Post2296499

Gg

Thanks for your reply.
I believe I am already doing the "carrot" phase of Plan A....just not the "stick"

The stick without the carrot won't work, and the carrot without the stick won't work. The two parts of Plan A are indivisible.

A renewal of vows at this time would be foolish, IMO.
What makes you think doing another round of vows will help?.


And, you think vow renewal in your state of mind is reasonable?
I do not.





.... because ???


Then, apply the stick part of Plan A.
Get OM out of your marriage.

jcb,

Order a CHECKMATE tester. This will check for sperm months after the event despite it being washed.

You can test the various sperm. Google Checkmate.

jcb,

Both you and your WW should immediately get tested for STD's and HIV.

OM sounds like a player. Contrary to what she may ultimately tell you, affairees NEVER use protection.

All Blessings,
Jerry

jcb, the first thing I would do with her is sit down with her and tell her the truth. Tell her you know she slept with the OM. Ask her to leave her job and cut off all contact. Don't demand, but tell her this is profoundly disrespectful and hurtful to you and that you KNOW that your marriage will never recover unless ends ALL contact. Tell her "I am willing to stay and work on this marriage if you will end contact." That means quitting her job, deleting her facebook account and sending the OM a no contact letter as outlined in Surviving an Affair. [I will post it below]

Then sit down and tell your daughter the truth. Your daughter has to know what i going on in her own life.

You are going to have to control your fear over her anger, though. I have no doubt she knows she can manipulate you this way and it has only fueled her. So, you have to make a decision NOT to react to it. When she sees her anger doesn't work anymore to put you in your place she will try threatening divorce, and all manner of things. You cannot allow her idle threats to stop your plan. Can you do that?

The next step will be to tell the OM's girlfriend. This is something I would do alone without telling your wife beforehand. Just call up the gf unannounced and tell her the truth.

Now, if your wife will not leave the job, I would expose the affair everywhere else. To her parents, your parents, the OM's facebook friends, etc.

Once she is out of there, you can begin building your marriage back together using the basic concepts of Marriage Builders. If you use these steps you can fall back in love again. They really work. But in order for them to work, you must start being honest* with her and she must end her affair. This will never work if she sees the OM every day at work or when she is on her computer; she will stay perpetually triggered.

But please find a qualified counselor. [you can get phone coaching with Marriage Builders if you want] Your "therapist" is giving you terrible advice and doens't know what he is doing.

A word about the radical honesty that is discussed at Marriage Builders. RH is not supposed to be used by a BS to undermine his own snooping tactics. Many BS make this mistake. You don't tell your wife your tactics EVER.

jcb, please get the book Surviving an Affair by Dr Willard Harley. It is the best one out there and can be found in most book stores. They do sell it on this website too.

Some links that will be helpful for you today are:

Surviving Infidelity

Here is the no contact letter. I would print the letter out and ask her to send it when she ends contact with the OM. It should be written together and mailed by you:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html




[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Melody,
I think I can sit down and talk to her. She will react with extreme anger and deny that she had a physical affair, that everything is over and I am ruining our chance of being happy. She will demand proof of how I "know" she is having a physical affair.
I am almost hoping the keylogger picks up chat between her and the OM today or in the next couple of days. I could then use the pretext of running an antispyware scan and say I found the chat in the cache files...she wouldn't know the real reason....sounds deceptive, but it seems like a safe bet to preserve the keylogger.

Should I confront the OM and tell him I know what's going on?

Yes, it will be a good idea to confront him, but do this AFTER you have exposed the affair to his girlfriend. You might also expose this affair at work. Is he her boss? What kind of business is this? It is very possible he has done this before and is exposing his company to legal liability by having sexual relations with your W.

jcb, you don't need to prove to your wife what she already knows. Don't even ASK HER, just tell her you know and suffice it to say that you do have the evidence. All you have to tell her is that you have the evidence and you won't be sharing your resource with her.

Do you know who the girlfriend is and how to reach her?

She works for a large retail chain. He is just another worker like her. I do know the girlfriends name, have her facebook and email info, I know where she works...I could easily get her phone number. Right now, every time I come in to her work, the OM literally runs away. My family and I went out to a restaurant a few weeks ago, saw the OM with his girlfriend (my wife actually pointed him out..??) and he wouldn't even make eye contact with me...he immediately left.

I'm sorry if I keep asking questions that sound "weak", but how much of a possibilty is there that by exposing my wife, telling the OM's girlfriend, that this will push them together?

Maybe I'm not getting it, but I can't help but continuing to think that she is going to deny, deny, deny, until she sees actual proof that I know what's been going on...

jcb, I know some of this advice seems counter to the "peacekeeping" type of stuff that our insticts and relly dull MC's tell us, but follow this advice you are getting here to the letter. Trust me. I am a FWW, and the best thing my H ever did was to draw an immovable line in the land and act on it. Waywards are like stubborn three-year olds. They need TOUGH love.

I have to admit that something about your screen name and initial post made me have a punch in the stomach feeling. I confessed my A in July of 2006, and my h's screen name was very similar to yours. Our ages are even almost the same. He even ended up havig to take anti-anxiety meds for awhile. Very soon afterward e talked about vow renewal, but we were nowhere near ready. The good news is that we made it.

But certain things have to happen - no exceptions. She cannot have contact with this man. She has to own all that she did - that means admitting to ALL of it. No matter what might have been wrong with your M the affair is 100% her fault. Enforce NC - and check up on her. No secrets! NO privacy except the bathroom, seriously. And expose. And yes, the kids need to know. You aren't degrading her - you are being honest.

I am so so sorry you are having to go through this. Be a ma of action. It is the best thing you can do.

JCB,

You don't have to prove to her that she is having an affair. She already knows she is...

You don't have to convince a jury, just let her know that you know. Will she be mad if you don't reveal your source? Sure! She's gonna be mad as hell that you called her on her affair and lying. No matter what you do to interfere with the affair she's going to be livid about it. Stop trying to prevent making her mad.

If you think of the affair as an addiction, which it is in the very real sense of the word, BTW, then you can remain focused on separating the addict from the drug, in this case, OM (actually more of a fantasy of OM that she has created in her mind). Anything you do that stands in the way of her next fix is going to call forth the wrath of God from your POV. She will do anything to keep OM an active part of her life...

She will threaten.
She will curse.
She will scream.
She will shout.
She will rant.
She will call you names.

IGNORE IT!

Develop a PLAN and execute your PLAN. The drama she will create means NOTHING.

You can't educate her into ending the affair.
You can't rationally convince her to end the affair (Affairs are not rationally based. They run on feelings which are from the part of your brain that doesn't use language skills, thought processes and logical functions.)
You can't force her to end the affair.

Make the affair harder than ending it. Make remaining married easier than not ending the affair. Make you a better choice than OM. Make OM less appealing because you can give her what she needs.

Meet her ENs.
Avoid Love Busters.

You don't have to fight her, only the affair.

If you absolutely need to answer her or you will die from failure to answer then tell her this when she asks how you know...

"How I know is not as important as knowing that you've been boinking OM." (Use his name so she KNOWS that you know.)



Mark

It's funny, one of things I remember from the initial discovery is that I went to her work and was basically looking to beat this guy to a pulp...my wife said she liked seeing me that way it showed her I care...maybe being the sympathetic, needy, crying basket case is the opposite of what she wants/needs...

What exposure does is ruin the fantasy of the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so getting them out in the open inflicts a lethal blow.


Thats ok if she denies, you don't need to prove to her what you both know is true. Just tell her you have the evidence and she can deny all she wants but you both know the truth. Tell her that her denial is not helping her cause because you both know the truth.

How about reading her words to her and telling her you got them in a system scan? Are they in an email?

Well, I agree. You haven't fought for your marriage at all, jcb. Women don't respect men they can run over and our love is very contingent upon the respect we feel.

JCB,

The affair is a fantasy. It can only exists as long as it remains in their minds. Once exposed to the light of truth and made to become visible as the dirty and wretched act that it is, it requires much more effort and will to continue.

Exposure raises the COST of the affair and makes it more costly than ending the affair and returning to the marriage. It won't cause a complete turn around all at once, but by making it more costly than it is worth, you will drive a stake through the heart of the affair. It can make her stay with you by default while you work the magic of Plan A and begin to win back her heart and mind.

She's boinking some other guy. How much worse do you think it can get if you make her mad?

Jump on this while you are still her fall back. Once she decides to actually leave you, then you are no longer her rescuer but her nemesis. Be her hero and save her from the road she's traveling.

Mark

It is good that you remember what you read here... Always look good, vent here, not at WW!

jcb, here is how I would play this out today. Today would be a great time to bring this to a head because you both have tomorrow off, right?

I would call the OM' GF today and tell her about the affair. Tell her your evidence.

Then go home and tell your wife you know and that the OM's GF has been told. Ask her to quit her job now and end all contact with the OM. Use the talking points I gave you earlier.

After you have done this, say we are going to set down with DD and tell her the truth. You can come with me or not, but she has a right to know and will be told NOW. Then tell your DD the truth.

Your wife will be furious, but you know what, jcb? she will be relieved deep down that you are standing up for your marriage. She knows in her heart that this marriage will never work this way. She knows. She needs to see her H stand up for her. Do it, friend.

OK,
I'm running a search for the OM's girlfriend now...
I think you're right about standing up for her...
I think in her heart she knows I know, and if I know then I am not fighting for her...does that make sense?

On a side note..can anyone give any insight to this? One of the things that baffles me about this is the class of gut she chose to have an affair with. He posts on myspace and facebook all the time how he can't pay his bills, his home phone was shut off, drives a broken down truck, talks like uneducated bum, is not anymore than average looking, and is dead broke working part time at T*****.....
What in the world would make her keep this up with someone like him. I am not saying this to brag, but my wife has let us say, developed an appeciation for what money can buy.....he can provide NONE of this. This more than anything has destroyed my self esteem....

jcb, go read the thread about why WS "affair down." My XH [not current] left me for an OW who chain smokes cigars, drinks Jumbo buds, is uneducated and has poor grammar, and is a house painter. She has buck teef and really bad smokers lines on her face. I am college educated, have a great career and am attractive. I was shocked when I saw her. She is the epitomy of white trash.

Yes it does. And just prepare for her to be furious at first and be prepared to not react. Dont let her scare oyu and don't allow her to bait you into a fight. She will get over it quick, I promise. She will respect and love you for standing up for your marriage, jcb.

Well I suppose I'm glad (you know what I mean) that I'm not the only one...
It's still baffling though.
I'm ashamed to say in the past 5 months I've lost 30 lbs (175 now) joined a gym and I dress like..well, I guess a 29 year old (what a coincidence haha)I hate what this has done to my self esteem.

To get ready for this, I re-read the email from my wife to the OM...
Don't think I should have...

The amount of LOVE this email professes between the two of them is staggering...she even uses the same pet name she has for me with him...It doesn't read like a dirty affair, it reads like a fairy tale of 2 star crosses lovers cheated by fate....

It makes me both mad and very very sad.

Honestly, is there hope for us? If she REALLY loved him, what good is all this?

Thank You

jcb, stick to the plan! They ALL "love" their affair partners or they wouldn't have the affair. Doesn't mean you can't come out of this with a great marriage.

This is more reason that they should not work together or see each other on facebook.

This is unbelievable...!!!!!!!

She is looking at his f***ing pictures on facebook as we speak!
I am so mad right now, it's better I'm at work...

Can't find the girlfriends cell yet..still trying.

WTF!!!

Jcb,
Your WW is an alien right now. She's in a fog. You can't believe anything she tells you or what you read. It's all fantasy. She's lost - your job is to help her get out of woods. You will be the one to clear the path so she can get home. Follow Mel's advice. If I believed my FWH I would have missed out on having the best M (it tooks 2 years but we made it).

Gg

Focus on the plan.
Do you know the Girlfiends name or where she works or lives?
You can do this!

Is telling the girlfriend better than threatening to do it unless the affair is stopped and contact terminated?

Remember you are fighting for your marriage. The affair is only fun if it is secret. I think you have to expose. I'm sure some veterans will be around to give you more advice on this as well.

DO NOT TELL HER YOU WILL EXPOSE JUST DO IT!!!!!!

Yes. You should NOT threaten to do this, you should just DO IT. Blackmail is a huge lovebuster and the affairees will simply get to her first and spin you as a "crazy jealous nut who imagines everyone wants to bed his wife." Then when you do call she will think you are a nut.

You should just do it. She has to know anyway so she can help stop the affair from her end.

I read your thread and I want to tell you that our sitchs are almost identical. My WH met POSOW at his work. They started out as "just friends". As you see by my sig line I was actually told about OW in November 2007. Over the past 2 years, I found a lot of evidence of an affair but was talked out of it. In March 2009, I even went out for a day to figure out what I wanted. WH called me repeatedly and asked me to come home. He said that he loved me and didn't want to lose me. He had me so convinced that they were just friends that in the summer I was thinking that I needed to work on myself and stop being so jealous and insecure.(HA)

Then came September 2009 when my WH gave me the ILYBNILWY speech. I was devastated. He convinced me that there was no other woman that things just weren't working anymore(BLAH BLAH BLAH). I found MB at the perfect time. I installed a keylogger on Nov 26. It was only on there for 2 hours until he discovered it. There was enough on there to tell me that they were indeed having sex and they were "IN love". I read and reread that info and could recite it word for word. Funny thing is he still wouldn't admit it and I said "You know I put a keylogger on the computer. I know." He is living with her right now and as he was leaving was still trying to play off like he would be in her "extra bedroom". Don't try to analyze what she is doing and why just follow what the vets on here are telling you.

I exposed, Plan A'd till it made me almost lose my mind and am now firmly in a Dark Plan B. What have I discovered? I always "knew" but didn't want to believe it. I love my WH very much but can NOT let him treat me this way. His affair continued because they worked together everyday. I may have been too late, but I hope not.

As far as if you exposing to his gf would get POSOM and your WW closer, it may be hurtful to you but it is good. Their affair can't last in the light of day. My WH is in the same house as POSOW and I am actually feeling better than when he lived here. Crazy huh?

Follow what Melody has been telling you as well as others. They know what they are talking about and they are leading you down the path for your ONLY chance to save your M.

Now I have her work phone number, work address, home address, email address, and facebook and myspace accounts so I think I'm covered.

So..
I call the girlfriend, tell her what I know, confront the OM, tell him I know, confront my wife (in that order)then see her reaction. If she agrees to quit work and have no contact we rebuild our marriage. If she angrily denies everything and loses her mind I calmly tell her I want everything to work but she's going to have to tell the truth..then I tell everyone (the nuclear option) co workers, family, everyone. At this point I honestly see one of needing to leave for a couple days so we don't kill each other...

Scotland,
Thanks for sharing. I sincerely hope it works out for you, although what happened to you is exactly what I fear.

DO NOT LEAVE. think of her talking in fog babble like the teacher on Peanuts(WHA WHA WHA WHA). Don't engage. If she feels like she needs to leave don't try to stop her. I had advice to say things like "I can not accept a marriage where you have a boyfriend, would you like some tea?" If she suggests that you may have been unfaithful to her simply state, "I believe in a marriage with only two people, I really like pudding."

Listen to the vets they know their stuff

1. call the girlfriend

2. go home and confront your wife

Save the confrontation with the OM til later. And do not leave and do not fight with her. If she wants to leave, let her leave. BUT YOU DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOME.

Don't let fear guide you. If you have a spare moment(or a few days hehehehe) you can hop over to my thread and see that the advice you are getting is the same. I may be further along in the process but I still have FAITH in it.

You will be able to do this. Pick up your cajones and DO IT.

You are not alone. All of us are behind you. Like was said to many others, this is a WAR against the affair. On one side you have POSOM and WW. On the other, you have YOU and all of US. Keep your chin up and take your punches(only figuratively) YOU WILL MAKE IT.

JCB, a few tips so you avoid doing what I did in several ways. While they didn't totally botch my recovery (so far), they created needless drama and escalation.

1. Never, ever discuss your snooping methods with a wayward. Not now, not ever. Dr. Harley emphasizes Radical Honesty, but in this case, you can be Radically Honest about the fact that you snoop, but your spouse has no standing to ask or be given an answer as to how.

If she finds out it's a keylogger, she'll start using a different computer. If you watch her phone, she'll start using pay phones or pay-as-you-go phones. If you tell her about the GPS in her car, she'll search until she finds it or else go to the lengths of taking public transportation or getting rides with friends. Every time you are "radically honest" about how you're getting the goods on her infidelity, she'll take it further underground to try to escape the truth.

So that's Tip #1: Be radically honest about every aspect of your life EXCEPT THIS ONE: don't share how you know how she's lying to you. My stock answer to her questions is to be honest about the fact that I'm keeping tabs on her activities: "Yes, I keep track in several ways, but I am not willing to discuss how I know when you are lying to me." I am telling her the truth: that I cannot tell her because she's not safe. And I'm telling her the truth that I cannot trust her with the information about how I keep track of her. But I'll never intentionally expose what those methods are ever again.


2. When you expose, encourage your exposure targets to get involved. Yes, I said "encourage". Your wayward is then stuck in the position of trying to reason with people who are outraged over her behavior. It's a dose of reality.


3. Never threaten to expose. That's a selfish demand: "Do this OR ELSE!" Just expose. It's Independent Behavior -- a Love Buster -- but a targeted one designed to make the affair very uncomfortable. And my answer to her anger over exposure, like so many before me, is "I am willing to do whatever it takes to fight for my marriage." And when your spouse starts to challenge that exposure isn't the right way to fight for your marriage... learn to walk away. It's really, really hard to do, but I learned to say "Telling the truth is always the right thing to do."

Great post, BB! And to back up BB's excellent advice, here are Dr Harley's quotes on these points:

1. "There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely. Your conclusions are correct."

2. needs no further comment, exposure means exposure.

3. "But the alternative, helping the unfaithful spouse to keep the affair a secret, is enabling the addiction, prolonging the agony. In the long run, making the affair public knowledge without any forewarnings, threats, or bartering (which by themselves can create massive withdrawals) actually reduces the number of Love Bank withdrawals made by the betrayed spouse. It�s my opinion that the advantages of immediate exposure usually far outweigh the disadvantages." article here

Attempted to contact the girlfriend...no luck at any numbers, she might be off for the weekend.

My wife and I went out last night and had a great time, or so I thought...after several drinks the subject came up and she said she was glad nothing ever happened between her and the OM because she loved me so much...

Absolutely crushing to know the truth and not be able to say it yet.

Anyone at this stage ever think...it's not going to work anyway...too many lies, the absolute humiliation, it sounds strange but I could forgive the affair, but the lies...I don't know.

Are you disguising your # so the OM GF can't ID you?

The lies make it very bad, jcb. The lies are harder to recover from than the affair because it is adding insult to injury.

jcb, I wouldn't allow the exposure to the GF to delay your chat with your wife or the exposure to your DD, though. I would get this done so you can ask your wife now to quit that job.

NO!

You call the girlfriend. You call your wife's parents, siblings, and other relatives and tell them. You call her best friends and tell them. You tell your children. THEN you call OM's parents, siblings, relatives and friend.

IN THAT ORDER!

Then, if you still have energy, you call OM and tell him to stay the heck away from your wife.

I have the plan in place to confront my wife. I have the plan to show the actual evidence without sacrificing the keylogger I have installed. I am ready for what will happen.

However, telling my 2 daughters and my wifes mother is conflicting me. Our kids did nothing wrong..this will make our oldest daughter (the one who yelled at my wife on a previous d-day) absolutely lose her mind she also knows who the OM is and where he works, her response will probably be worse than mine...our youngest daughter will be crushed because she defended her mom and was adamant that she would never do something like this to me and our family....can not telling the kids show my wife I have allowed her to keep some small amount of dignity?

Lying to your children will not retain your wife's dignity, it will harm your children by teaching them to be dishonest and causing moral confusion. There is nothing dignified about lying to children. Your wife sacrificed her dignity when she had an affair - don't protect her from the consequences of her choices. Who does that help? Absolutely no one.

Your children already know what is going on, it will help no one to whitewash her crime. Maintaining an illusion by lying to your kids helps NO ONE. It does not help your wife, and it certainly does not help your kids.

Kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies. They have every right to know what is happening in their own life so they can be equipped to deal with this.

Dr Willard Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders:

jcp, your older DD already knows about this affair, so it sounds like your wife has been allowed to lie to her? Have you allowed your DD to be treated that way by your wayward wife?


Also, have you put a keylogger on your wife's computer?

More Dr Harley on telling children:

JCB,

However, telling my 2 daughters and my wifes mother is conflicting me. Our kids did nothing wrong..

Your daughters lives have already been altered by the dark matter of your wifes affair, and the OM is attacking your Mother in-laws grandchildren. Yes they need to know the truth of their lives, and the affair partners need to understand what they are doing to your innocent children.

I'm an OC btw, and everyone knew the story of my life for something like 35 years, EXCEPT ME. Was like being in the Truman Show.

God Bless
NJ

jcb

"the one who yelled at my wife on a previous d-day)"

The D days will never end because your lack of courage, refusing to expose WW, has taught WW that there never will be consequences for her to face.

Children can and will handle the truth. Letting them believe lies is what mess's them up.

Showing them that there are no consequences to infidelity mess's them up. To the point that the odds greatly increase that the damage done to them by the lying and covering up that they will most likely have their own affairs as adults.

She will be crushed that you and your wife lied to her and led her to defend her lying mother. This was a terrible mistake, jcp, and the solution is to right this wrong, not to continue in the deceit. Whitewashing the crimes of adults helps no one.

Everyone here is adamant about full exposure, since I've screwed everything up to this point, I will do it.

My fantasy version of this was that I tell the girlfriend, go home, sit down with my wife, show her the evidence. She admits, we talk for a long while, all questions are answered, she quits her job and ends all contact with the OM and we live happily ever after. I am seeing now that this is probably not the way it's going to go down.

Thanks You!

Remember to go nuclear on the exposure. Don't just tell the OM girlfriend... tell EVERYBODY you think might have any effect on your wife.

Don't show her the evidence... TELL her you have evidence. If she demands to see it, explain that you can't trust her with it right now because she's having an affair. If you keep her guessing on what you know, you will get more truth out of her than if you present all your evidence right away.

And if you present your evidence, she'll typically figure out exactly how you got it, and go further underground where it's harder to monitor her compliance with no-contact if she agrees.

Be ready for some rockiness, bub. D-Day was just the start of the worst month of my life.

You do not have to tell her where you get your evidence from. Just hold a letter which says "Private and confidential". Wiggle it a few times and ask your missus for further details.

Whatsamatter you never played poker before in your life?

She is an alien, NOT your wife. You would be discussing hostage release with a terorist. Would you trust a terrorist to 'do the right thing'? Of course not.

Do you understand what exposure is for? It is to burst the bubble of the fantasy she is in. Nothing more. It is to have her parents call her up and give her what for, for destroying THEIR family. It is for her dad to say 'I'm so disappointed in you' so she'll realize the affair isn't worth hearing that from her dad. It is for her best friend to (hopefully) tell her 'what the h&ll is the matter with you?' It is for OM's mom to say 'I didn't raise you to be a homewrecker' and grab him by the ear.

That is why you have to expose to EVERYONE. All at once. Because if you only call OMW, and they realize you did, you can bet their little fingers will be a'dialing everyone else to spin THEIR version before you can get to everyone else so fast you'll see smoke. Their version: jcb is violent; jcb is abusive; jcb has had a dozen affairs and I had to get away from him, and OM just stepped in and helped me through the horrors of what jcb did to me.

Whoever speaks first, is believed.

Call EVERYONE TODAY.

jcb, I wish it could be so easy, friend. What will really happen is that your entitled, wayward wife will blow up at you and deny, scream, rant and rave in an effort to cow you into silence and complicity. Your job will be to remain firm in your resolve and not react to her tantrum. She should be viewed no differently than a crack head who has just had her crack pipe removed. Or a bratty 5 year old who is not getting his way and is throwing a tantrum.

Once you present her with the evidence and ask her to leave her job, I would inform her that the girls are going to be told the truth. She can come with you to do that or not, but there will be no more lying to the girls to cover this up. That is unfair to them and only teaches them to be dishonest.

If she sees that you won't be cowed, she will eventually calm down. If she tells you to leave, respectfully decline and tell her you have no reason whatsoever to leave your home and will not do so without a court order.

Typically, wayward wives become very overly dramatic and manipulative when confronted with unpleasant consequences. As a leader of your family, it will be up to you to help her by not reacting to her tantrum.

you can do this, jcb!

I appreciate the advice about bluffing her.... However, I know my wife (actually that sounds kind of hollow, now) I will HAVE to show her the evidence...otherwise she will lie until doomsday. Confronting her with the actual email SHE wrote is the only thing I can think of to get her to admit.

What is your goal?



It seems your goal is to "get" a liar to admit she is a liar.

YOU know she is a liar.
Stop trying to convince her.

You know what you know.

You seem to be under the impression that once she admits she is a cheat/liar ... things will go your way.

This is not correct.

Work the MB plans without needing her full (or partial) confession.

... or don't ....

If you choose to spend your efforts trying to convince her of what you already know to be true , you're relying on the wrong person. (her)

jcb, just remember not to ASK her if she did, just tell her you KNOW. And tell her that lying about it will make this worse, not better. I understand you want to show her evidence but keep in mind that you don't have to prove what you both already know.

You don't need her admission to know the truth.

Yeah, that's what I meant to say.

You don't NEED her admission. You already know the truth.

Tonight is the night...home at 5pm...

Wish me luck!

What if, during this, she says she love me, but still loves him?

Tell her "I know." You already knew this.

Have you reached the girlfriend yet?

That's why you don't waste time trying to get anything from her right now. You EXPOSE - to everyone ELSE. You don't even have to tell her you know, because she should start getting some phone calls from people as soon as you expose. Then she'll turn to you and scream at you, and you smile and say "I'm fighting to save my marriage. Want a cookie?"

Let the EXPOSURE stop the affair.

You are WASTING your time trying to talk to her.