Feeling burnt out, also like I am too nice to him...

Marriage Builders

OK, OK... I got the message and the 2x4 is hitting me hard... I am TOO NICE to wh...

I am feeling like he does get the cake and eat it too.

I am drawing more and more boundaries and he does seem to rise to them,.... BUT how do you know when you are too nice?

It is a hard line to draw. I want to spend some time with wh, but I almost feel like I am just too nice to even do that without him coming to the table more and more.... and meeting my needs more and more...

Hard to do with his issues.... I want a balancing act of kindness mixed with boundaries. Yes, it is happening, difficult though it may be.

I am interested in how to know when to draw a line.. in situations such as his invites for me to come over? Should I go or not?

He is even suggesting a wkend away and I have sd I am not comfortable with that, but I am afraid maybe I should.

I do leave when he has had too much to drink or get off the phone, and am getting to the pt that I may not be able to be around drinking at all.... but have not drawn that line in the sand, b/c he is fine if it is only a beer or two.

Anyway, tired still and frustrated.

Things have gotten better since the Sun. nite fiasco.

Thanks,

Honey

Not sure what you mean by too nice.

How about polite, amicable, cordial, reasonable, personable...but firm in your boundaries?

Honey,

I posted this once before but here goes again.

Here are some of Harleys thoughts on alcohol and drug addiction within the marriage.

One of the first things I do when couples see me for counseling is to evaluate them for drug and alcohol addiction. If I feel that either is addicted at the time, I refer the addicted spouse to a treatment program. The Love Buster, drug or alcohol addiction, will prevent them from resolving their marital conflicts because it controls them. It must be eliminated before marital therapy has any hope of being successful.

Until you're both willing to deal with his drinking you will not be able to fix the marriage. A weekend away is not addressing anything.

jmho
tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ March 12, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]

Honey -

I feel for you. You receive "advice" from SOOO many sources...

MB Forum members, parents, personal friends, church councelor, alanon members, etc. all want to tell you how to save your marriage to an actively drinking alcoholic. Very few KNOW what loving an alcoholic really means.

This next statement may surprise you coming from an alcoholic... IMHO, as long as he drinks, you are better off without him.

That is what the Harley's say and it is what I really believe.

Please ask yourself: Are you enabling his behavior? Are you prolonging his fall (ie. the beginning of his recovery)? Do your boundaries set the stage for a better life for you and your kids? Or are they a bandaid until your love for your H is totally gone?

Tough questions, but you need to work on you. Afterall, that is all you have control over, right?

Just be honest with yourself...under what circumstances do you want to stay married to your H? Once you answer that, all the questions you asked in this thread and the last one are easy to answer.

God has given you the wisdom...

Now use it wisely.

Gib

OMG!!!!!

ba109 and I agreed on something....

Is it too late to change my mind? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> OK, OK... I got the message and the 2x4 is hitting me hard... I am TOO NICE to wh...
<hr /></blockquote>No, No, No, No!!

You still don't get it. You didn't catch the concern being posted in your entire previous thread. It's not about you being nice to him. It's not about him being nice to you.

It's about your kids. They don't have a choice. They are subjected to whatever environment that you and your WH place them in. They have no choice. You do.

jmho
tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

originally posted by Gibby1
<blockquote>quote:<hr />OMG!!!!!

ba109 and I agreed on something.... <hr /></blockquote>OMG ba109.....I think you have just been validated! You are now..."postworthy"!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

(J/K you were postworthy before.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Gibby,

You have been a calming presence throughout all the posts involving alcoholism. Thank you for contributing your time and wisdom to people who sorely need it.

committed

Thanks Gibby,

I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you committed. "Yes I am!" (postworthy that is)

Now I gotta work on Mel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Just kiddin Mel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ March 12, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]

Feeling a bit like this forum can't deal with someone trying to save a marriage to an alcoholic.

Gibby, I appreciate your advice coming from someone who has been there.

I still feel attacked by some of you others and sorry for posting too personal as of late.... I really wonder why the same people who are so harsh to me, at least in my perception, keep posting to me and kind of take over my threads with the negativity towards alcoholism..... seriously the A is another addiction as well..... and quite intoxicating.

Yes, I do see the and have known the Harley
s advise for a long time. Yes, Ba..... I have noticed you seek me out and like to hit me over the head< and why is that? I am not so sure I remember, but you do have an alcoholic in your life, right?... one that you are angry at?

Anyway, thanks again, not feeling too lifted up by the tones I find here...

I don't like being talked down to, or the comments that I really need.... to listen blah blah blah..... Who would?

The one upman ship is so evident, I do wonder... what would Jesus do or how would he talk or speak out?... Would it be a better than approach or a loving approach?

Thanks for any support of me as a human, again... WHY BEAT SOMEONE OVER THE HEAD WITH THE SAME STUFF over and over, it is quite irritating..... I even outlined the types of responses I was hoping to hear...

Here is the quote-
I am interested in how to know when to draw a line.. in situations such as his invites for me to come over? Should I go or not?

Why do the same posters keep coming to my suppossed rescue even though they know I like not, what you say? I don't get it guys? Maybe I am WAY too sensitive and some of you guys might be too , to alcoholism... and WHY when I don't even post about alcohol, do I get the alcoholic answers...

Thinking I might have to change my name to get different responses... feeling branded by my experiences....

Anyway, thanks again Lor, your answer is good tonite!

Hugs and Hope to all of you, H

Thanks, H

[ March 12, 2003, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]

Honey:

I haven't followed these threads all that much, but I have noticed them.

"Feeling a bit like this forum can't deal with someone trying to save a marriage to an alcoholic."

I believe that it's sort of true that this forum can't deal with that. But it's probably not because they don't admire someone who wants to try, they just are frustrated by the order of priorities. It seems to me it should be 1) save the alcoholic from their addiction, then 2) save the marriage.

"the negativity towards alcoholism..... seriously the A is another addiction as well..... and quite intoxicating."

Most definitely! But you're having to deal with BOTH addictions. Even if the A is over, the fog of the OTHER addiction is still very much present.

"Anyway, thanks again, not feeling too lifted up by the tones I find here..."

I hope you don't take offense to my post. I don't intend it.

"I am interested in how to know when to draw a line.. in situations such as his invites for me to come over? Should I go or not?"

This is really entirely up to you. Nobody can tell you what to do. What do you WANT to do. What do you believe would be the right thing to do?

Please take care,
♥Qfwfq

Honey,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes, Ba..... I have noticed you seek me out and like to hit me over the head< and why is that? I am not so sure I remember, but you do have an alcoholic in your life, right?... one that you are angry at?
<hr /></blockquote>No Honey, I've BTDT. Those people and/or situations are no longer a part of my life. I chose to remove myself or take action against those who tried to force their alcoholic tendencies on me or those around me.

I would certainly not subject my child to such an environment when I have the option not to. I don't understand why anyone would. Post after post, your kids seem to be your last concern. I guess that's what keeps me responding to your threads. Your kids rely on you and your WH to provide them with a stable, loving and safe environment. He is not willing to provide that for them. That leaves you.

jmho
tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ March 12, 2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]

Honey,
As an alcoholic myself, I will tell you that I AM very negative towards practicing alcoholics because their behavior *IS* very negative and destructive. I am frankly, horrified that anyone would execute Plan A around one because I know how alcoholics are. Sure, they like being treated kindly, but we view that as an opportunity to take ADVANTAGE, not an opportunity to change. We are always looking for enablers and I imagine your H is loving this.

I agree with Harley's words about alcoholics and know that it is impossible for a practicing alcoholic to love anything or anyone OTHER than booze. Hence, an impossible recovery. There is no room for anything else because his entire life REVOLVES around alcohol.

I truly hope that changes, Honey, for your sake and the kids, but until he quits drinking, you are spinning your wheels because he is simply incapable of conducting a normal relationship.

ba109, you are too much! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

honey I have stayed away from your postings because you get angry if people don't agree or tell you how good you're doing but I had to answer this one.
you said
I do wonder... what would Jesus do or how would he talk or speak out?... Would it be a better than approach or a loving approach?


I say Jesus would have said protect the children because they are what's important right now. I think it's time you see that people aren't attacking you but that they are afraid for your kids. you really need to take a look at what you're exposing them to and then you need to make your decisions based on what is best for those kids. the heck with your hubby and the marriage if you are destroying your kids. no man or woman or marriage is worth destruction of kids. and so you know I don't have an alcoholic hubby and i'm not bitter or divorced. I am a parent whose kids come first though so call me names if you want.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />what would Jesus do or how would he talk or speak out?... <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />I even outlined the types of responses I was hoping to hear...
<hr /></blockquote>Honey,
I certainly do not think that Jesus would lie to you..and I do not think that he would want us to intentionally lie to you either. Would he? The things you want us to say to you, we don't feel are correct. By you wanting us to say those things to you, you want us to lie. The last time I looked in the Bible it expressly said to do not bear false witness (layman's terms.....LIE).

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Feeling a bit like this forum can't deal with someone trying to save a marriage to an alcoholic.
<hr /></blockquote>I do not think that it is a question of whether or not this forum can "deal" with it. It is because the majority of people here are practicing the Harley's principles and the Harley's are quite clear on this issue. It must be eliminated before marital therapy has any hope of being successful. You are wanting to save the marriage first and then deal with the alcoholism (if at all). It goes against what people know and are practicing here. (IMHO) You cannot expect them to go against this and you are continuously asking them to when you want one type of response from them. The people that come here wanting to save their marriages, are going to stay true to the Harley principles as best they can. You want people to stand against what they are practicing in order to make you feel better about what you are doing. It is obvious that you do not want to practice them in regards to alcoholism.

You outlined what you wanted in the way of support on your last thread...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Support to me is a kind ear, a friendly thought, an I care about you kind of thing... maybe even we know you are doing the best you can and that you do care for your children and are working hard to make things better each day... as I truly am <hr /></blockquote>The majority of us feel that you are NOT doing these things, so why would we tell you that you are? Again, would Jesus want us to lie?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />and WHY when I don't even post about alcohol, do I get the alcoholic answers...
<hr /></blockquote>Why? Because Alcohol is RULING your life right now. It is the end all to be all. You cannot ignore it, you are allowing it to stay in the your life. I feel that this comment is the most enlightening comment you have ever made here. It lets me see clearly that you still feel that it has NOTHING to do with the shape your marriage and life is in. As long as you continue to take this stance and do not recognize that it has EVERYTHING to do with your marriage; your marriage and life are doomed.

As Always, JMHO
committed

[ March 13, 2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am frankly, horrified that anyone would execute Plan A around one because I know how alcoholics are. Sure, they like being treated kindly, but we view that as an opportunity to take ADVANTAGE, not an opportunity to change. We are always looking for enablers and I imagine your H is loving this.
<hr /></blockquote>Melody,

Great Thought! That must be the very reason that the Harley's are clear about eliminating the alcohol first. Plan A is the very first step, isn't it? If you cannot take the first step, the rest of it isn't going to happen.

Again, thank you for pointing that out. You have enlightened me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

committed

Thanks committed. I think that Harley knows that any addiction prevents recovery. He clearly states that recovery cannot begin until the affair ends. It is the same with alcohol, the recovery will never begin until THAT affair ends. Unfortunately, it is not Plan A that will effect an end to an affair with alcohol, but AA.

Honey,

Melody has a clue. And so do most of the people responding to you.

My point of view comes from where I have been. My first husband was a drug addict. From that marriage I learned the same thing that Harley says… It must be eliminated before marital therapy has any hope of being successful.[b]

I have dealt with family members and friends who are alcoholics and drug addicts. I have seen the damage alcoholics and drug abusers can do to the people around them.

From all of this I also learned that there is a huge difference between loving someone and liking them. It’s possible to love a person and not like what they are doing to themselves and others. When a person is doing something as destructive as what is going on in your life, the only sane choice is to protect yourself and your children.

I’ve also learned that an alcoholic and/or addict is the only person who can end his or her own addiction.

[b]Feeling a bit like this forum can't deal with someone trying to save a marriage to an alcoholic.

You are wrong about this. There are people here who have saved marriages with alcoholics, but they did not do it by enabling the alcoholic. Those of us who are talking to you here have been trough it. Sure not all of the marriages were saved, but sometimes that is not a failure. Sometimes it’s the only choice they have.

I am saddened to see so many people caring for you, spending their precious time and energy trying to get you to hear them, only to have you find ways to discount them. There is so much love, wisdom and sound advice being give to you, no matter how it is presented. You are choosing to not let it in.

You say that talking to a person honestly and straight is not the way to win friends. I nor most of the people here are here to win friends. We here to get and give REAL help. I do not need friends who will cajole me no matter what I do.. I have no use for friends like that. My best friend is well known for giving me a boot in the pants when I need it. I treasure her for that.

I join the ranks of those who cannot tell you what you want to hear, as it is immoral to do so to stand by and allow children to be endangered is immoral. I will not do it.

There are many who cannot learn from the experiences and advice of others. They just have to burn their hand before they will believe the stove is hot. That is your choice… your children have no choice in this. Some day they could very well look back and be very angry at what you allowed them to go through.

Now how to set and keep boundaries.

The first step is deciding on what boundaries you need. Do you know what they are? Or do you want help in coming up with a list.

The second step is to come up with a list of actions and other things you can do to keep those boundaries. This list is your plan.

The third step is to enlist a support system to help you stay on track.

The forth step is to keep the boundaries by working your plan and falling back on your support system when you start to loose your resolve.

For example some reasonable boundaries and a plan.

---Putting things in place so that your husband has only supervised visitation with his children until he is sober and clean from drugs.
( Discuss this with your attorney. )
( Call the police EVERY time he is with the children and under the influence of drugs.)
( Call the police EVERY time he is contributing to the delinquency of a minor (as in the case of the druggy teen) or otherwise dealing in drugs.)

---Honey has no unsupervised contact with your husband until he is sober for at least 6 months. So to answer your question, IMHO, any dates and overnights with your husband only reward him. It tells him that you have little problem with his addictions and his affairs. The strong statement that you will not put up with any of his destructive behaviors is the best thing you can do for your marriage.
(Supervised contact would also help you not explode around him. This could only help your marriage.)

---Your husband has to prove his sobriety and abstinence from drugs with solid proof, like a drug/alcohol test once or twice a week for some period of time (6 moths to a year?) to taper off until he agrees to have the test only when you think he may have slipped.

I am sure that there are other boundaries and plan steps you and others could come up with.

What are you thinking you want to do?

Honey,
I am not an alcoholic, but I am the daughter, exwife, and mother of alcoholics. The fact that I am not one has nothing to do with superior moral virtue, but simply that I got a different deal of the genetic cards.

You ask why people follow you around even when you make it plain you don't like what they say. I can answer only for myself: because I see so much of myself in you, and because I have been there and done that, and because I am afraid of what will happen to you and your children.

I want to tell you what I have found out about alcoholism. You cannot save the alcoholic from his/her addiction, any more than you can save the diabetic from diabetes or the asthmatic from asthma. Alcoholism is a disorder that involves the body and the mind. An alcoholic who is drinking has actual changes in his/her brain that can be seen either on autopsy or while still alive on magnetic resonance scanning. The part of the brain that deals with logic, sense, morals and judgement literally shrivels up. This means that the active alcoholic is absolutely incapable of reasoning or being aware of probable consequences. Just as a person who has lost a leg is completely incapable of dancing ballet. When the alcoholic stops drinking, it takes a full 90 days before all the toxic chemicals have left his/her body. Only then does the shrivelled part of the brain start to repair the damage. If the alcoholic stays clean, the brain recovers totally and that area (prefrontal cortex) can actually become denser than before. However, with binge cycles, the damage does eventually become permanent. That's why all treatment programs start with drying out the alcoholic. To make him/her actually capable of understanding.

I'm telling you this because it is impossible NOW for you to "recover" your marriage. Only your H can make the decisions and take the treatment that will arrest his disease. Just as only the diabetic can choose to stop eating doughnuts and start eating only the foods on the list, just as the diabetic has to commit to doing the blood tests and taking the insulin shots on a daily basis. Would it help the diabetic if his wife took the insulin shots and swore off chocolate?

I did group therapy with a group of codependent adult children of alcoholics. The doctor who led the group is not only a psychiatrist but also a neurosurgeon who specialises in the physical effects of addictions. He told us bluntly that trying to be reasonable with an active addict is "f***ing insane." Yes, he used those exact words!

I am worried about your children because of my own experience as a child of an alcoholic, and because of what has happened to my own children growing up in an alcoholic environment.

You've asked what Jesus would say and do; well, Jesus never pussyfooted around! He called people liars and hypocrites to their faces when it was needed. No, I am hinting that you are either - you're hypersensitive, Honey, and I think you have no skin at all left at the moment. What I'm getting at is that Jesus spoke the truth and spoke it directly. I could quote passages to you, but I suggest you take your Bible and look up what Jesus said about and to people who harm or neglect their children. Or use an online search engine for a Bible concordance, which will line it all up for you.

Please try to believe that those of us who follow you around actually mean well by you.

Have you tried the Dr Laura thing? look into a mirror, or into the eyes of a stranger, and say aloud "It is better for my boys to be in dangerous situations, in an unhealthy coparentship, where they could easily be physically hurt and will definitely be emotionally battered, than for me to take the initiative and provide a safe place for them on my own and leave my H in God's hands."

I have sympathy for your dream. You want the married with children, happy home, secure thing. Problem is, it takes two parents for that, and right now your H is not available.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Feeling a bit like this forum can't deal with someone trying to save a marriage to an alcoholic.<hr /></blockquote>Posters replying to this thread & oops thread:

Alcoholics

Gibby1-186 posts
Tom-1518 posts
MelodyLane-1735 posts

Spouses /family members of alcoholics

Zorweb- 3626 posts
ba109-159 posts
juststartingover-739 posts
jph-45 posts
KaylaAndy-824 posts
Mitzi-3257 posts

(I assembled this from direct statements in these threads, if I missed anyone, sorry.)

So, Honey, you've got posters who know MB and who know about being or living with an alcoholic. And, you are hearing the same thing over and over. Your H is not separate from his drinking. All issues you have with him merely spoke out from his core being, one who drinks to excess often.

I think from re-reading these threads, one of the main themes is that you want to save your marriage and if that means your H is always an alcoholic, you are, at this point willing to live with him as an alcoholic.

Don't tune out yet.

I also read & post a lot on Recovery and one of the main themes there is that, when either of the spouses isn't a good partner in a marriage, Recovery is difficult, halting, faltering, unsatisfactory for the spouse who does make the effort.

Twyla currently has a long thread on this subject...and this isn't even dealing with alcoholism, but dissatisfaction and unmet needs and expectations, drained lovebanks when posters are years into recovery:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=009703

Oldies but goodies...been in this situation?

So, whether or not you are "nice" isn't the issue. Because of your children, you hopefully will have your H in your life, and that's where my post on this thread was directed on your behavior when you interact with him: polite, amicable, cordial, but firm boundaries for you and your children.

Do you want your H home and drinking? Is that the environment you want to raise your children?

I believe your H wants you in his life, but he's not willing to change his drinking. His drinking is a higher priority to him than you, than the kids.

Is "a couple beers" really no problem?

If you are counting them, it looms as a problem, doesn't it?

I also listen to Dr. Laura quite frequently, and one thing she does is when the caller is babbling on about details, she cuts them off, "I don't need anymore details", she deals with the core issues.

So, when you say we don't have every detail, it isn't necessarily relevant, your core issues are plain and that's what posters are addressing...over and over.

Like juststartingover says, I "follow you" and come to your threads because I see myself in you. Not the alcoholic H, but our sheer stubbornness and determination. Being strong-willed is a strength, but one that can go awry when the target goal is incomplete.

Dear Honey -

People here do care about you, or they wouldn't make the time and effort to respond to you in such depth.

I am not as organized in my thoughts as a lot of these posters, but I believe, in the posts above, they have given you the best advice you will ever get in your entire life.

I have posted to you before once or twice and try to follow your threads - I was married to an alcoholic, my father is an alcoholic, my grandfather and my great-uncle were both alcoholics.

So what do I see here?

I see people here pleading with you to stop letting alcohol ruin your life and that of children. And what is that? What is really going on here?

Honey, YOU ARE ADDICTED! To HIM. Your husband is YOUR DRUG. You are co-dependent. And co-dependent means that you are as addicted to him as he is to alcohol. You don't think that's true. You are in denial.

You go to Al-anon. You know what denial is - you are learning that he won't stop drinking until he comes out of denial and admits that he has a problem and he is not there yet.

And you too, are also in denial. And your life won't get better until you admit that his problem is destroying your life and that of your children.

You don't want to hear what all these people who have been there have to say to you. Just exactly like your husband also doesn't want to hear what sober alcoholics have to say to him - that alcohol is ruining is life and he must quit or choose death.

You only want to hear people say certain things to you - nice, supportive things like "Honey, you're doing just fine", even though your kids are in dangerous situations because of his drinking. And that's just like him - he only wants to hear people say nice things to him, like "J, you're not really drunk, you're just happy", or "J, you're the best drunk driver I've ever seen!" (my Dad's personal favourite). Your H does not want anyone to tell him anything he does not want to hear and neither do you. He doesn't want to hear anyone tell him he ought to stop drinking, and you don't want to hear anyone tell you you ought to stop contact with him until he stops drinking. You are like mirror images of each other.

Honey, why don't you want to hear what these people have to say? I think its because you STILL think YOUR love can save him. I don't think you have got to the point yet where you understand that nothing YOU do is going to save him. I understand that he is a person worth saving and I am a Christian who believes that Jesus loves him and can save him. But only your husband can make the decision to reach out his hand and ask God, or his Higher Power for help. You are not able to do that for him, Honey.

Just like he has to admit that he has lost control of his life and has no power over alcohol, you have to admit that until you let go of him, he and his problem with alcohol are running YOUR life.

And I think that what you don't understand yet, the hardest thing of all for someone who really loves someone else, is that what you think is your love - which is trying to maintain positive contact with him even though he is still drinking - is actually damaging him and preventing him from getting well. As long as he thinks he can get away with drinking and still keep your love, he will NEVER stop drinking. So what you think you are doing by "loving" him is actually helping to kill him.

Let him go, Honey - he has to fall in order for Jesus to be able to pick him up. Be strong enough to let him go. That would be what real love is. Only by doing that will you give him a chance to discover what real love really is.

My dad quit drinking 6 weeks ago after passing out in the hot-tub. He's 78. My stepmother cried on the phone and begged me not to do with my life what she had done with hers - gone to bed angry every night for 30 years, woke up angry every morning for 30 years. Dad's life is nearly over. He's a great guy, but what a waste. My grandfather died drunk coming out of a bar and walked in front of a car.

You cannot save your husband, but it IS in your power to protect your children from further harm.

Please know that I care about you and only say this to try to help.

LIR

[ March 13, 2003, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]

The attacks on me that I am a bad mother are ridiculous, you people do not know me. I am sick of these ridiculous accusations, and yes those that have BTDT, are projecting their experiences onto mine.

I have read some good, but it is drowned out by the bad. I feel that this forum is not going to be much benefit to me as long as I get these types of responses. I guess I need a time out.

Enough said.

Honey,

IMHO, the last 2 posts to you from Lor and juststartingover are the best, most accurate, most heartfelt responses you have gotten in all the threads you have started. When it comes to relationships with alcoholics, these people nailed it. With regards to you as a mother, I think some of those attacks are over the top. We do not have enough information to make those conclusions. But the 'big picture' of trying to save your M to an alcoholic has been accurately portrayed. (IMHO)

The people here care about you. We just have different ways of trying to help.

Lor and juststartingover, I toast your posts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ! With a diet coke of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Gib

[ March 13, 2003, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Gibby1 ]

Honey,

You cannot dictate the type of responses that you are going to receive. It is not within your control to do that here. Nor is it within your control to repair your marriage as long as alcohol is the driving force within your WS. I really feel that his being an alcoholic is a nonissue with you. It's as if you just "accept" it and go on from there. You are accepting of his alcoholism as much as you accept the color of his eyes. It is because it is. You need the wisdom to know the things that you can change. Those things would be YOU...not him. Change Yourself and leave him alone!

Lor,
I could be added to that list that you provided for proof and validation. My first (late) husband was an alcoholic, his father was, my father was and I decided that it wasn't what I wanted for myself or for my children to be exposed to.
I had a choice. I made the "right" choice. The "right" choice in EVERY situation is to protect children from the alcoholic.

Honey,
Your situation is no different from the rest of us. You can say what you want, but you are not living anything different than the rest of us lived. Yours in just being played in another city.

committed

[ March 13, 2003, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]

Bless Honey's heart, she's got the biggest yacht sailing down the river of denial.

Everything that she needs to be told has already been said to her. It's sad that she can't see it. I think the best thing for us to do for her is just pray.

Heavenly Father I come to you on behalf of Honey, her husband and her sons. Thank you Father that we have the opportunity to communicate with her and the opportunity to touch each other's lives through this forum.

Father as You know Honey and her family are going through very difficult times right now. Each of them are having difficulty in coping. You tell us in Romans 8:28 that all things work together for good for those who love You and are called according to Your purpose. We know that there's much to be learned through this situation and I pray dear Father that Honey's eyes will be opened to learn and to see. Father please open her husband's eyes and his heart to see his addiction and what it's doing to others. Father please open Honey's eyes to the dangers that she and her sons face in dealing with these addictions. Protect them Father from harm.

Father, as You know, Honey has been given excellent advice on this forum. Please open her eyes to see it and not to take it as an insult on her parenting skills. Show her dear Father that we all care for her and her family.

Lead and guide her Father. Bring those in her area along side her to comfort and teach her. Please don't let her be influenced by rationalizations and excuses but see the truth.

Please Father protect these innocent children from any harm. Protect their minds from the damage by what they have seen and experienced. Use this situation to make them better adults instead of letting it too become a characteristic of their lives. Show them that alcoholism and adultery lead to misery and protect them from that path.

Father Honey is so very hurt and she has so much on her. Let her rest in You and know that You always have her and her family in Your thoughts. Please Father I ask that You restore her family. Help her husband recover from alcoholism. Restore this family to bring glory to You.

I thank You Father for hearing these requests and thank You for the mighty work You're doing in this situation. These things I ask in the Blessed Name of Jesus Christ and for His sake. Amen

Honey, in your topic line, you say "Feeling...like I am too nice to him..." YOU ARE! You are WAY WAY WAY too nice. In fact, you are so afraid to upset your H out of fear that he will distance himself from you, again, that you are allowing yourself and your children to be stomped on, emotionally. Given that, I don't know how much I can offer with regard to boundaries given that I am still learning how to set them, myself. Maybe this will help -

As you know, my H is a newly-recovering alcoholic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (Now sober 6 months - WOW! that's 1/2 a year!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) As part of his recovery after his inpatient treatment - during his outpatient treatment - he had to complete a form that provided instructions to me on what I should do if he starts drinking again. In that "contract," his instructions to me, from a sober, yet alcholic mind, were that I should do, "whatever it takes to protect [DS] and [me], including Plan B." (H is familiar with MB's Plan A and Plan B). He made VERY clear to me that my number one priority should be protecting our son and me - remember, this is the alcoholic speaking.

H also told me that I could have hung the moon the stars and the planets as part of the Plan A I was doing while he was still drinking and it wouldn't have made a difference - ONLY THE ALCOHOL mattered. He actually resented me for NOT drawing boundaries and sticking to them. He wholeheartedly agrees with what the other posters and Dr. Harley have said with regard to not being able to recover a marriage while one of the spouses is in the throws of an addiction.

As the spouses of alcholics, as much as you or I may want to recover our marriage, we cannot do it while our H's are actively drinking. As our MC told me, if only 1 person is showing up for the game, you can't play. Even though the active alcholic may physically be there, he is not there mentally or emotionally - he is not thinking rationally or logically and cannot be reasoned with at the level necessary to truly work on a fragile marriage. As I told you in our recent phone conversation, too, it doesn't get better right away once they begin their recovery. AA is a very selfish (in a GOOD way) program, in that the recovering alcoholic places their recovery first and foremost above everything, even their marriages and families.

I have learned through Al-Anon, books, counseling and from H that the disease of addiction is a family disease in that the longer the family is exposed to an addicted member they will assume the traits, behaviors and thinking patterns of that addict. My counselor calls it, "Stinkin' Thinkin'." I don't mean this to attack you because I, too, was in your shoes not so long ago. But, your response to the other posters' genuine attempts to help demonstrate one of the classic signs - denial. In fact, very angry denial. I, too, did the same thing - my situation was always "different" or the people offering advice, "just didn't understand." Finally, my counselor said to me, "There comes a point where, if you are not willing to do anything to change the situation, you lose your right to complain about it." That certainly opened my eyes.

Considering the reality that the other posters are offering may help you begin the very hard process of healing your family - and, very possibly, your marriage. As the other alcoholic's who have posted here point out, every alcholic has his our her rock bottom - for my H, it was seriously considering suicide to the point of attempting to buy a gun. Maybe treating your H with detached compassion in the ways suggested by the other posters will be his "rock bottom." Anything less is enabling - spoken from a true enabler herself! (In my situation, after H would drink, he would yell and yell and yell at me and, for a very long time, I would either 1) yell back and/or try to reason with him; or 2) agree with him just to calm things down. I drew my boundaries by making very clear that 1) if he got arrested for DWI, I would not bail him out; and 2) when he would yell at me, I would tell him that I wasn't going to discuss anything with him while he was drinking but would be glad to do so when he was sober. This diffused the situation almost entirely).

I understand how you may be feeling attacked. I felt the same way when my friends would tell me the same thing about my H when he was drinking - totally defensive and protective of H. BUT, they do make some very good points that you may want to consider - as in Al-Anon - take what you want, leave the rest...

BB

[ March 13, 2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Brit's Brat ]

Honey,

What I have found to be true for me is that in Life - "First you have to take the test...then you learn the lesson". What I see is that you are still taking the test.

In the spirit in which you have asked us to post to you; let me tell you a recent incident in my story. As you know I have posted to you in the past about being married to an alcoholic. I was married to him for 7 years and have now been divorced from him for going on 14 years.

Last week, I received information that an envelope came to my ex-h at my former place of employment that I left 13 years ago. It was a letter from unclaimed property division of the state's department treasurer.

It gave me an opportunity to call my ex-mother-in law; to let her know that I would be forwarding this to her to pursue. Reason I called her is because my x-H died last May at the young age of 47.

You see after 7 years of being married to an alcoholic, completing in-patient alcohol rehab with him, doing everything I could in my power to convince him to stop drinking; I finally had to let him go when it came to the decision that if I didn't let go I wouldn't survive. I became so emotionally sick being addicted to HIM that his rehab center wanted to admit ME to their rehab program for 30 days.

So I let go; or so I thought. In reality I convinced myself that I was only divorcing him because the pain of losing me would be the "magic" that would convince him that he needed to stop drinking; and then we could re-marry and "live happily ever after".

Well, of course he didn't stop drinking when I divorced him. And instead his health continued to decline as a result of the abuse his body took from too much drugs and alcohol. My personal survival hope was that by the time he died (and I knew he would die young) I would be so far removed from him emotionally & physically that it wouldn't kill me too.

Blessedly & peacefully (though not guilt-free), when I did receive the news he died last May it did not devastate me. I am so grateful for that alone.

Back to my former mother-in-law. As we were speculating what in the world the un-claimed property could possibly be she said the most amazing thing to me. She said; "I am so glad you got out of your marriage to D when you did". "Your life didn't go down the drain with his, and you've moved on to better things".

I was stunned. This mother loved her son with the intensity that we mothers know exists. And for her to say this after all these years was such a gift. I responded to her how grateful I was to hear her say that; because even after all this time I still have guilt. She told me I had nothing to be guilty about. This is profound to me beyond my ability to express here.

Back to you. My hope for you is that you take care of you - the mother of your children. If you are taking sufficient care of you...the rest will follow. I know how it feels to be where you are (minus the children), and your efforts to do everything you can to save your dreams with J. I just want you to know that at some point it is OK to "just let go" and see what happens. Especially when the pain of where you are becomes greater than your wildest fears about your future without J.

You have wonderful supportive people in your life that will be there for you if/when you reach this point. Just a reminder that life is full of choices; and when you decide that something isn't working for you - it's simply a matter of making another choice. I did. It wasn't easy, but I'm still receiving gifts for having made the right decision for the right reason. It's just that it wasn't on anyone else's time frame but mine. And I'm at peace with that too. Blessings CSue

CSue,

My ex-MIL said the same thing to me. Even though I was devastated when my ex left, she told me that it was a good thing and that one day I would think the same thing. She still tells me that it was the best thing for me and the kids. It took me about a year, but I finally got what she was saying...I understood. Yes, it was hard. But I finally realized that being with him was bad for me and the kids.

Now, he's married to the woman he left me for. They drink together all the time. The last time I saw him, he looked bad. The whites of his eyes are yellow and he's usually drunk or high on something when I do see him. What a life, huh?

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Honey, you are NOT a bad mother. You are a mother who is stuck in the middle of a very nasty situation. You're reacting on a moment by moment basis. You can't see the picture because you're smack in it. Those of us who are concerned about your children are worried because we can see the picture; we may not be able to see our own, because we're in the middle of those ourselves, but we can see other people's, right? Just as you would have a better overview of my situation than I could have.

I made many of the same choices you're making, and live daily with the consequences. Please try to put aside your fear, anger and denial, and realise that you're not being bashed, you're not being called names, and you're not being labelled or libelled. Some of your choices are poor, that's all. And it's only to be expected. Skills have to be learned and practiced. I never learnt any good mothering skills - I was taught a lot of poor techniques!

OPB, Brit's Brat
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Finally, my counselor said to me, "There comes a point where, if you are not willing to do anything to change the situation, you lose your right to complain about it." <hr /></blockquote>I completely agree. Enabling the alcoholic through Plan A is a lost cause. It's also very selfish. You have to be strong enough and Love them enough to Plan B, for their own good, and for the good of your children and yourself.

jmho
tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Honey, just to say hi. i am fairly new here and read your thread. i just wanted to say the hello to ya and that i hear what u are saying. My WH has been gone a little over 8 wks and i feel like i am just being soooo nice to him and he can walk on me. but, i guess this is all part of plan A. am i right?

Honey -
A book that would be very insightful for you -

Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

there is also one after that called

Beyond Codependency - but I haven't finish that yet so I cannot recommend it yet...

Thanks to the posters, I do appreciate the heart-felt replies...

Unfortunately alcoholism is quite cunning and baffling.. we all have slips and that is what happened to me Sunday nite, life is not perfect.

Alanon is a great support group formed on the basis of a support group for wives of alcoholics who wanted to stay in their marriage whether or not the alcoholic is / was still drinking. This is where I need to be for now- b/c NO, I cannot control whether or not he stops completely- changed attitudes can aid recovery- Now I can do my part in that area. I can change my part- which does not neccessary mean a D, or a plan B, if he is still drinking.

Now boundaries are intact and continue to be forged, we have professionals working with us on those issues.

I vented here and got the same ole same ole and it still came out here.. when I posted even on the too nice aspect of my plan A...

I see that many who have been harmed by alcoholism are trying to help me not walk in their shoes, I appreciate this....

All situations are different, each of us can only do the best we can do with our given circumstances.. of course we can work to change OURSELVES.. that is it. I know this.

I know at times I may enable, but believe me things have changed a lot.

I can only pray that my h will get sober, his stance in regards to the A's has drastically changed and that is real progress. I know this man loves me and I know he is very capable of living a good life with me and the boys, we will recover.

I appreicate the heartfelt replies, we are all different- maybe some of the harsher replying posters can learn from a more gentle approach, with my h in particular it works much better.. tough love with love can work some, but he really needs some patience.

I have BTDT with all the calls to police and police reports.. what did it get me...? My h calling the police on me when I finally went over the edge over the A, and his turning the tables back on me... he has been locked out many a night...- my detachment in the past before the A was with anger, not patience and love.. which I try to have today.

My h as any drinker, has issues that cause the drinking... by working through these and with love I do feel IN MY SITUATION there is a stronger chance of recovery. My h does not respond to the police being involved with anything but anger.. I will not recover my marriage and the trust we need to rebuild with this sort of action.

With love and loving boundaries for me and the kids I can do the best I can to recover.

I am hoping to get older son back in counseling very soon and have h meet with this counselor at times for issues that are forming due to older son's feelings about seperation and dad's current situation...

Must go for now, but do appreciate the posts... One bad nite does not ruin the positive steps that have been taken.

It is a delicate balance , balancing boundaries and detachment with love... I am doing it.

I will seek out alanon support in the future when there is a slip, as I know there will be some...

thanks, H

[ March 14, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Honey ]