Respectful question from an OW - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I am trying to understand something and I would like to ask respectfully if I may.

A wife has been betrayed, has undeniable evidence in front of her and a confrontation that her husband has been in a EMR for well over two years and is told by her husband that he loved the woman. She also knows several expensive gifts were given, trips were made, they were in your house.

My question is this.....does she really believe that he will just stop seeing this other woman and just overnight stop loving her and seeing her just because he says so? Can she tell herself that and how does she do that?

He never stopped calling or seeing me from day one after the blow-out yet she seems to be just fine now, believing that he will never see me again and all is well.

I am trying to understand all of us and that includes her. Can anyone answer this?

Why don't you do the respectful thing and stop seeing a married man? That would help a lot in my opinion.

Hope and Prayers to you and yours,

H

I don't know what the Wife actually believes but here are some thoughts....

Amazingly enough, there are people who have the willpower to control their actions. If they really want to stop something, they can stop something like seeing someone.

Feelings and actions can be completely different. In most cases the feelings don't change so readily, but they should be considered separately from actions. Most "cold-turkey" references refer to situations where the change in actions preceed the change in feelings. Basically, I'm saying that people who still care about OWs can choose successfully to stop seeing/contacting the OW. It's the principle of NC applied to recover the marriage.

A good number of people believe what they want to believe. Especially if someone they want to trust is lying through their teeth to them to believe that their is no contact. The alternative is to face further betrayal and pain of the A. It probably isn't the healthiest response, but people can be genuinely scared of taking the hard road. The evidence you mention seems to be just "past" evidence. I'm sure that the W would quickly change her mind if she had evidence of new contact.

I hope this is somewhat helpful to your questions. May I ask why you asked? Does the H want the marriage?

[ March 18, 2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: est ]

Is it just me or is there an ironic tinge to Honey's heavy-handed advice giving?

I am sincerely trying to understand all of us. Maybe the bottom line is we both just love the man and choose to believe what makes us more comfortable with the choices we make. Why we all do what we do. He knows current evidence would change things again but still it does not seem to stop him. And I am responsible for my actions as well.

There are no children involved, I could not handle knowing that, for what it is worth.

MS. RED

Sounds like you know my H. I have been with my H for 11 years. I am currently trying my best to catch him in action. is am working for my marriage. But at some point I will let him face the consequences of his actions. In my case, he will lose it all because he simply can not afford the life style he has without me. Spouses stay for different reasons, one of which is love. However most of us realize that love isn't a feeling, its an action. However most of us work on our marriage becasue it is the right thing to do. But it does have its limits.
My husband thinks i will put up with it forever, What he doesn't know is i have a plan. I am waiting for the right time. I am going to tell his girlfriends boyfriend. I am going to leave him with all of the bills and responsibilities that are his. I will not bail him out. If he loses, he loses. And he already lost the most important thing, his integrity and character as well as his family.

I don't blame you for taking the time to get your ducks in a row. You have every right to do that and go with YOUR time frame, not someone else's and with your own agenda, not his.

Has he been one that had more than one EMR, or just one? Anyone with children needs to do what will benefit them first. Forget consideration for anyone else.

Maybe he's an incredibly good liar. Maybe his wife NEEDS to believe that he's worthy of another chance (obviously he wasn't.) Maybe his wife is acting from a heart of mercy.

I'm a FBS...but I'm also a FWS, so the answer to one of your questions is "yes". It IS possible to completely stop seeing the OP and to stop loving and respecting them. I did it. I saw that my selfishness was killing me from the inside out - literally. God did not create me to live in a world of chaos, confusion and pain.

My H and I are a success story <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , and we both consider our relationship an incredible gift.

As for Honey's response, I don't think it was heavy-handed at all...merely blunt.

Lori

I think Honey was asking an honest question. Blunt but honest. Maybe the truth is the man does not deserve either of us yet we both choose to believe him for our own reasons. And it could be she is just trying to do that.

And he made a statement in the beginning that she is not sure she can ever trust him. My reply was "Well you are here talking to me again, so she can't, right?" This is a day to day process for me and doing a lot of thinking.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My question is this.....does she really believe that he will just stop seeing this other woman and just overnight stop loving her and seeing her just because he says so? Can she tell herself that and how does she do that? <hr /></blockquote>There is no way to answer this question in general terms, each person is different.

I didn't believe he would stop loving her. Frankly, if he could have turned the emotions off that fast he wouldn't be the kind of man I want to be married to.
But I did believe he would be true to his word with regards to the no contact. I was wrong.

In my case, I knew it would be difficult for my WH, but since I didn't have any feelings of longing for the OW I grossly underestimated exactly HOW hard it was going to be for him.

It's good that you're re-thinking this situation. It's really very serious; lives and futures hang in the balance. That sounds dramatic, I know, but it's so true. Fantasy has a way of blowing up and shattering lives when we least expect it. It ALWAYS does, eventually.

You do realize that you deserve better than this, don't you? Would you really WANT to spend the rest of your life trying to trust a man who would cheat on his wife and lie every single day?

Please think long and hard. Do what's right. In the end you'll want to know you did the right thing because it was the right thing to do. You WILL be glad you got the chaos out of your life, believe me. Cutting it off - completely - will cause temporary pain and loss, yes, but it won't be nearly as tragic a loss as you might think. It'll open up a whole new life for you -- go for it.

Lori

Hi Ms. Red,

I would like to offer that even though you may think you know what is going on in the married man's home and marriage, based on what he's telling you, you really don't. Most likely he is filtering and conjoling the truth and what he is allowing you to know.

Have you ever considered this?

Jo

Ms Red...how do you know that you know the whole story? He's lying to you just as he's lying to her.

If you've read all that is presented on this site, you'd understand that she may be in Plan A. You would also understand that many people have several "d-days" and that coming out of the fog of an adulterous relationship more than not, takes time.

It took my husband 3 d-days to see the xow for what she is. The thought of her and what he did disgusts him now. All this from a man who swore she was the most wonderful person that had ever walked the earth.

It is not your place to understand her. You have invaded her life without her permission and you have no rights there. I wonder if you were so confident of your relationship would you feel the need to post here.

Ms Red

Your married BF is manipulating the both of you, and you seem to know it. For the security of having someone to love you and to love, you and the wife live with it. But what is the cost in the long run, your selfesteem, integrity, sense of selfworth for being part of a life of secrets?

My WW is addicted tothe OM, it is very painful for her to imagine life without him. She hasto live through much more pain to realize she can live again without the deceit and lies. But for now, as in your situation, things are just moving along, with the three of us here, me supporting the family and house, her, taking all of my support and giving her love and affection to OM. Room for resentment, you bet. When your lover's wife wakes up enoght to become angry, then it could get ugly.

Since he can't break it off with you, you really should break it off with him. I know, easier said than done. You are addicted also, to him. His wife to him, he to having the both you. (as a guy, if I had two women I could be with I'd feel pretty good about myself, in a very selfish sort of way)

You seem to be a good person in a wrongful situation, not a preditor or someone willfully breaking up a household, but that's how you will look with it all crashes down.

It's good you are here to try to understand affairs and what really happens when the fantasy wears off.

Good luck, I hope the pain for the three of you will be as little as possible.

DRS

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Miss Priss:
[QB][QUOTE]Ms. Red
Junior Member
Member # 26437

posted March 18, 2003 08:49 AM
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She has nothing to do with your relationship with your MM does she?

See, I'm not sure if I think that. I think as maybe bad as it sounds, we are all entangled with each other. I'm not saying that in a boasting kind of way, I just always saw it that way. I am probably not making sense with that one.

Red,

First off, I agree with honey!

Second, the fact that he is still with his wife says that he doesn't really want to leave her or he would have.

You are the fool here. How do you know he told his wife he loved you? Because he said so? The same man who is lying to his wife, what makes you think he is telling YOU the truth? This is a case of two liars trying to make the other believe (you and him). Of course he tells you he loves you and buys you gifts, you are giving him sex right? It is a small price to pay for the man. I think there is a name for that too!!

When he ends it with you, he will still be with his wife, and if he needs to, he unfortionately will find someone else to have A with, and tell her how much he loves her too.

So again, I say what Honey said, give up the married man and find a single one of your own. The wives are not usually the cold, heartless, fat, ugly women they are made out to be, women who don't "understand" their husbands or fail to meet their needs. (and don't buy that "I'm not having sex with my wife" BS either, another lie!).

So why does the wife stick around? Because she has morals and character, because she believes in the vows and the committment she made to her H. Because she knows H better than anyone. But probably most of all because she truly loves him, total, unconditional love, and not just cheap sex while sneeking around and lying, and hurting others with no remorse and no cares except for ones self.

So does that answer your question RED? Think about who is lying to whom!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jph:
Ms Red...how do you know that you know the whole story? He's lying to you just as he's lying to her.

I wonder if you were so confident of your relationship would you feel the need to post here.<hr /></blockquote>I'm not confident about anything, that is why all the questions regarding all three of us. I'm trying to understand. I have absolutely no idea what he tells her anymore than she does of what he tells me. I know that much. I think he is trying to stuff everything back in and have what he did before without scrutiny from her or questions from me. Thanks for your input.

Ms. Red,

I just wanted to give in my 2cents.

If a husband is doing and saying these kinda things, what kind of man is he????
When he got married, he promised to keep his wife safe and he promised her "heaven".

If he was a man with "character" why is he playing these kinda games???
If he was so honest with OW why doesn't he just get divorced??
Why do OW think that a man that betrays his wife is truely being honest with them?

If OW would open her eyes and her ears, she would be able to see between the lines.
The WS is showing himself from the worse side and also from his best side. (hope this makes sence)

The only thing that is honest is him displaying how sneaky he is and how good he is being a lier.

I believe that the OW when she really would think about this very seriously, she would "RUN"!
A man that will do this to the woman he promised "heaven" to, will do it to her too, unless he becomes aware of how much of a "coward" he actually is.

He has a choice to put in all this effort to make his marriage work and not to just "run" away with some OW.
He could stop "avoiding conflict" and face it.
There are so many things that a WS could do, but they just try to choose the easy way and they think everything will be better.
It usually just gets worse.

I believe WS that are still in an affair are "perfect" liers and his wife probably doesn't have a clue.

He is the man that she married and he is the man that she adored. As she has never been the OW in their relationship, she isn't aware that he can lie so greatly.
The OW gets to hear his lies. She gets to hear his honest opinion about his wife.
He's absolutely a "coward"!! It's so easy to talk bad about someone behind their back!!!!
It probably even feels better when the OW agrees and tells him what a great guy he is.
Again, if OW would think seriously, I think she should be scared!!!!

If he is able to do this to the woman he promised the world to, he is surely capable to do it to any OW!!!! Maybe not right away but as soon as "reality" hits their life, he will show his true face!!!!

So, Ms.Red, if you are saying :
My question is this.....does she really believe that he will just stop seeing this other woman and just overnight stop loving her and seeing her just because he says so? Can she tell herself that and how does she do that?

How can OW believe what he is saying???? Can OW just tell herself that she is so special and that the married man is being honest with her??? Can OW really just say this??? I honestly don't think so.

I just think your MM is very convincing and you too are believing everything he is saying.
You are being "used" and you feel so special about this! Yuck!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

take care
bb

Since you seemed to allude to the following question....

The reason why the H is continuing to lie to W and see you is likely because his feelings for you are affecting his intellectual side. His selfish desire for short-term feelings is clouding his judgement regarding his own character and long-term consequences. I think H knows that eventually W will find out but it doesn't play into his decision making as much as it realtistically should.

I might suggest that the same "fogging" might be in play in your mind. Perhaps not to the same extent as the H since it's kind of neat how you're in this processing mode rather than choosing not to think about it. I hope that you are able to come to some conclusion and not just run around in circles.

Most people do what they do "for their own reasons". There's nothing inherently wrong with that. Heck, I'm posting this reply "for my own reasons". So the fact that W is doing what she is doing for her own reasons is a not-so-meaningful truism unless you go into the specific reasons.

I think it's sort of the same thing for "comfortable" also. It could be comfortable short-term or comfortable long-term with both options being completely different. So it's sort of vague without going into more specifics.

Any good luck and I hope you continue to ask questions and post comments.

RE: Heavy-handed v. blunt v. honest. That's not really the point. Call it whatever people want. My point was the irony. (Which is only apparent from reading other threads, so can be ignored for the purposes of this discussion)

I'm a firm believer that you can't build a strong house on a weak foundation. Since I don't have all the facts, I'm guessing at some of this.

She probably does have a firm foundation with this man. Met him under honest circumstances. Fell in love with him for the right reasons. Decided to create a future together.

Somewhere along the line, they lost their way. The marriage got stale. I know that due to the fog of the affair, both of you believe you were meant for each other. But if the conditions for an affair were there, he could have met another woman to be his "soul mate". Please read either SAA or previous posts to understand about the fog and about the euphoria created when "falling in love" with the OP.

You think you want a future with this man. But before trying to build further, please think about the foundation you've built upon. Lies and fantasies. He's cheating on you right now and probably misrepresenting the truth to you. I'd gamble that he's telling both of you that he "can't" leave the other one. There's a reason that if someone marries the OP, there's only a 5% chance of that marriage working out. And I know you're saying to yourself, "But this is different." Believe me, they all feel like they're madly in love and have found their soul mate if they leave their spouse over it. I suspect 5% who do remain married to the OP are just too stubborn to admit they've made a terrible mistake.

Think about your goals in life and what you're worth. Think about what you want a marriage to be built upon. If you can be honest in yourself, you're going to be surprised.

Red,
He's living with his wife, right?

If he truly loved you and wanted to be with you, somewhere in 2 years, he would done so.

The wife can't trust him, if he's waiting to end the affair until she does, well he's set up an excellent Catch 22.

Why are you with him? Love?

Why on earth do you think you deserve to be treated so badly by this scoundrel who is not offering you a clear future?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Ms. Red
Junior Member
Member # 26437

posted March 18, 2003 10:01 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Miss Priss:
[QB][QUOTE]Ms. Red
Junior Member
Member # 26437

posted March 18, 2003 08:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

She has nothing to do with your relationship with your MM does she?

See, I'm not sure if I think that. I think as maybe bad as it sounds, we are all entangled with each other. I'm not saying that in a boasting kind of way, I just always saw it that way. I am probably not making sense with that one. <hr /></blockquote>First of all.....you are not all entangled with each other.....unless you are related to or have a relationship with his wife such as a friendship.....which I didn't see mention of.

You seem to be acting more in a way like you are the new wife and she is the ex and you want to know why she does this or that.......which in a sense is odd since there are no children involved. If she isn't bothering you then I'm not sure why your are bothered or even wasting your time trying to figure HER out.

Maybe you should spend more time trying to figure out what YOU want out of life than what makes her tick.

Do you want her husband to yourself?
Where you hoping that either she would divorce him or he would decide to leave her so you 2 could be together?

If the answer to both of those questions were yes.......then you are wasting your time. He's playing both of you and he has very little respect for either one of you.

He's a classic WS.

You're spending so much time thinking about things that don't even have anything to do with you.

Think about it......is this how you want to spend the next 5 years?

If it is.....then you bring it all on yourself. It's not her fault.....it's not his fault.....it's the decisions you yourself are making that makes you feel the way you do.

Not passing judgment.....just calling it as I see it.

Nobody put a gun to my H's head and MADE him have an A......he made that decision on his own. The feelings he had and the things he went through were his fault.....not mine and not the OW's......we didn't make him do it.

[ March 18, 2003, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]

I'm glad you came in here, Ms. Red. Perhaps you can answer some questions from BSs? I'm really curious here, it isn't a flame of any kind!

Firstly, why would an OW go into another woman's home, violating her privacy, and have sex in the BS's bed, or on the couch, or wherever?

Suppose your BF sneaked another woman into your apartment/house, and had sex with her there? Would you feel violated? How would you feel about this woman using your bathroom to pee, drinking your coffee or liquor, soiling your bedding and towels. Would you consider it okay for the two of them to be cuddled up on your couch, watching your TV?

Why would an OW accept expensive gifts from a MM? He's literally stealing the money. This is marital assets, and should it come to a divorce, the court would almost certainly demand the return of such expensive gifts/or the refunding of the money to the marital estate. How do you feel about that, being an accessory to theft? Would you like your BF to dip into your bank account and buy presents for another woman with that money? Remember, the marriage service says "With all my worldly goods I thee endow."

These are two things that I always wonder about.

Red-how about taking a chance. Why not cut all contact with him. You are not giving yourself a chance for a real love. Two years? You are valuing yourself at such a low level. Have you ever been married? I am certain that he once had that excitment with his wife. We did. But reality is tough. The affair is fantasy. You are there with open arms and Victoria's secrets. Far from real life. If you have ever been married then you know this, but if not...run! He needs to make a decision in his marriage without you. If he choses to end it, well then so be it. No one wins this way. If you are so sure of his love, then set him free. I don't think you are that sure however.

Ms. Red,

I am just so sorry you are involved with a MM. You must know that a relationship with a MM is not a good thing. The MM is bonded with his wife in marriage, and God does not want that marriage broken. Of course the wife wants to believe her husband, she may or may not, but she will likely try to believe her husband even if he is lying, while he tells her he is being honest.

It is quite perplexing to have your husband lie to you, when you have put your soul and trust in this man.

I hope you will see the hurt your choice to be involved with him is also causing. You can choose not to be in this sort of relationship. I hope you will choose to end it. If the two of you are so in love and his marriage is so unsalvagable, then let him divorce as he may choose and then choose a relationship with him... even that in my opinion would be wrong, b/c you have helped destroy his relationship with his rightful wife, you are coming between their sacred and holy bond.

Even if you are not a believer, I am sure you want commitment from this man, and he is not giving it to you, he is having both of you- you can end that by not allowing it.

Respect yourself and him by ending this secret and all the lies that go with it.

I know you must hurt and are only human, but to continue to repeat the wrong, does not make it ok, even though you have already been doing it... it only makes it worse to continue in the wrong.

He can recover his marriage and family if you go, but you are helping destroy more than your own life and that I hope you will pray about.

Obviously my opinion is that of a hurt wife of a mm who cheated, my h now wishes he had not done this to me , himself, or our children and even the extended families who are hurt by it... it is a mistake that hurts much deeper than you likely realize. Please seek help in individual counseling or in faith with your higher power.

Hope and Prayers,

Honey

ANYONE remember where that post is describing cakeman???

Red, you are half a meal for this greedy adulterer. His wife is the other half. He likes having both. Welcome to the world of enabling a man who cannot decide.

Pepper

He'll be different with you, you're special.
Author Unknown

You two have a "connection," a rapport that he didn't have with his wife. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are - and he's the first person to really do that, isn't he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it's different with you. He couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn't it? It's hard being on your own, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here's this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that's where you are vulnerable. He couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it's part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn't mean he's doing that with you. He's really sincere this time.

He's told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He's acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and "honest". And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won't do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You're special. So what if he told his wife the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his [censored] with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you.

He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he'll be different, because he's told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he's told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn't mean he's following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of women. That doesn't mean that he'll be turn emotionally abusive with YOU at some point...) He's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right?

So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the "best thing that ever happened to him", and that he had "never loved anyone as much as he loved her"? That doesn't mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won't be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn't give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he'd NEVER do that to YOU.

So what if he didn't leave his wife before he got together with you? It's not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 4 decades of emotional abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, "help" him.

And those stories of how his wife emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counselor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues.

Even if in his past, he DID say, "Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that's easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I'm also inventive ... so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly ... It's just I'd rather enjoy the "romance". It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It's also a head trip for me, with my poor self esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads." ... he couldn't possibly still have been doing that with his wife, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he's sincere, right? He couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know.

He's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He's so sweet, rubbing baby oil all over you, making love, sending you little cards, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, he'll be different, with you.

So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his wife (just about the time you two started up again): "I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns." That couldn't mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special.

Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn't undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. She must have brought that out in him. But you, you're special.

Besides, he's been in therapy. That must mean he's sincere, right? He wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with his wife. He couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn't possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL.

He's so contrite and sincere about "working on his issues", he couldn't possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history pathological lying to himself and others, doesn't mean he'll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn't know it's a lie, then he can't be held accountable for it, right? He can always claim that he doesn't have good "memory" for things in the past. But don't worry. He won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special.

The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if his ex doesn't want to have anything to do with him, and now think he is mentally ill, it must be because SHE is unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you... He couldn't possibly have been like that with HER TOO... He wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU.
This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special.

Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it), but HER mistakes and reactions to his emotional abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won't apply a double-standard to YOU. He won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtely criticize you when you don't measure up to his standards. You're the one who is going to change his life.

And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can't forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but he couldn't possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so he could cry foul... He wouldn't have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her... And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time he tells you he's happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he'll REALLY mean it, with YOU. He won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won't do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices for you. He won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to him. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL.

He's such a nice guy, he won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He's going to claim his right to be "selfish" now, because he's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But he's better now. Don't worry. He won't use his new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally.

It's no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his wife was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn't ready. And besides, he just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, she's just so SCARY when she's upset (it's just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times! Can you imagine? Nobody else is allowed to have anger and raise their voice except HIM. Because, like, he can't DEAL with it, and he shouldn't be expected to! He couldn't possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won't do it anymore, with you.

And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" his old abuse patterns, he'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want him to start acting emotionlly abusive again because of something YOU did.

And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with him, and you'll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he'll NEVER lie to YOU. He'll always be completely honest and upfront with you. He won't have to "forget" any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. With you, he won't withhold information, or distort or omitt the truth. He won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past!

And it's a good thing he's not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make him feel bad about himself - that she could forgive and he couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way? So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was "like blood in the water for sharks" for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. He'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL.

And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - he just didn't know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn't willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn't one of his patterns. He won't do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after he abandon her, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate's clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if he is, he's only doing that with HER because of their history - he wouldn't do that with YOU.

And it's so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his wife, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she "helped" him (when she wasn't hurting him, the witch) - that must mean he's a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even "help" him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past... Just like SHE thought she could "help" him.

And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. He couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HIS memory is inviolate.

He's told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you. He's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special.

You don't need to talk to any of his ex's to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can "remember" it), right?

And he's such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his wife could be FRIENDS now. He can't understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him - after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He's so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn't STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues... After all, he's a changed man.

But you don't have to worry. He won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence to other women - he won't betray your trust - like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special.

He won't wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won't then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won't start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won't tell you that you just weren't meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won't expect you to read his mind. He won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won't set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn't mean he's going to follow through on the rest of them. He's CHANGED now.

You're special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were.

YOU are the one who can "fix" his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you're special! With you, he'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won't play headgames anymore. He'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. He won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE'S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he's removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his [censored] together. Not because he's done any REAL work. Not because he's actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change.

He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to "save" him from himself and "help" him become a better man, and that's YOU.

You just KNOW he'll be different with you. Right?

Ms. Red,

You've been told a lot on here. You know what my advice to you is?

Call her. Meet her. Yes, talk to her.

Leave the man out of it. Perhaps if the two of you could have a real conversation and even "compare notes", the answers to many of your questions would come out.

Would you share your income tax return with her?

You're sharing a heck of a lot more. Call her. Talk to her. See what happens.

[ March 18, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: bhf1111 ]

Resilient. All I can say is WOW!!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />bhf1111
Member
Member # 24270

posted March 18, 2003 12:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ms. Red,

You've been told a lot on here. You know what my advice to you is?

Call her. Meet her. Yes, talk to her.

Leave the man out of it. Perhaps if the two of you could have a real conversation and even "compare notes", the answers to many of your questions would come out.

Would you share your income tax return with her?

You're sharing a heck of a lot more. Call her. Talk to her. See what happens.
<hr /></blockquote>What is the purpose of this?

First of all.....the W shouldn't be any of her business.
Second of all......what would her MM think? Most of them would see it as a betrayal. Do you really think the W will keep it a secret that the OW called her? Nope....and when HE knows.....he'll think that the OW did it just to rat him out.....which is pretty much what it would look like.

Leave the man out of it? What are they going to do.....compare notes to see which one has more going for them?

Ms Red......I can tell you waht will happen if you call her. YOU will be the bad guy.....to him and to her.

You aren't necessarily the bad guy now....since you aren't forcing him to have an affair with you.

YOU are not the one hurting his wife.....he is doing that by himself.

My advice.......leave this guy....and look for a relationship with a single guy.....one that doesn't have to lie to be with you. One that doesn't have to lie to you to make you happy.....because he is lying to you if he says he is't happy at home. With no children involved....there is nothing keeping him there....unless he wants to be there.

This guy has his cake and he's eating it too. He's got his wife whom he married....and then he's got you when he's tired of playing with his wife.

He's a total schmuck.......just like my H was when he was doing the same thing that this guy is doing now.

I don't often post here anymore...but felt a need to respond to this post.

The advice and information given to you has been 'top notch', take it. Statistically speaking, it is highly unlikely he will leave his M and then marry you. Even if he did...do you want a man like this? If he did it to her he WILL do it to you. Maybe, it's time for you to start examining your self with the help of a IC. I don't understand why you would do this to yourself, it's so self-destructive. Do you feel you don't deserve anything better? If he were your 'soul mate', he wouldn't leave you on the sidelines...you would walk beside him in the light of day and share all of his life. It's time to ask yourself why you are settling for this and don't you deserve better?

[ March 18, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: mgm ]

Red,

Please get out of this now, run away! This man is using both you and his W. You have a conscience, listen to it. Everything Resilient posted is 100% textbook A. Nothing will be different. He's a pig in Prince's clothing. Respect yourself and OM's W and break it off, heal, and find a SINGLE man who can *honestly* give you the love and committment you're looking for.

Miss Priss,

warning Thread jack!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

While on one level I want to agree with you that an affair has nothing to do with the BS...I also somewhat disagree with that thought process...and here's why...(and note this is not to argue for arguements sake...but more a debatable look at the BS and OP role...
and in my opinion...

I have seen a re-occurring theme in some OP mantra that the relationship/affair has nothing to do with them...
the line that they often say that makes me go grrrrr is the old...

"I'm not the one that took vows with the spouse"
and
"If it wasn't me that ended up as the OP it would have been someone else anyways..so might as well of been me."

I believe in marriage vows...the ones I took as well as the ones other took....
and that for me to take my vows seriously and to have meaning apply to them..I need to take other peoples vows seriously and apply that same meaning to them....

This helps me in defining boundaries that should not be crossed regardless of any of the verbage someone uses to minimize and disregard their own vows....

I believe that even God realizes that their are times in our lives that we meet people who we find attractive, interesting, and can connect to when we put our energy there....that is why at most religious weddings I have attended there is that little warning from the person in charge...right before the big smooch...where someone usually states in a deep voice...

"what God has joined together let no man put asunder" and then smmoooooooch... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We are each called to be the person not be involved in that putting asunder...and when we cross that line we are responsible for damage caused.

Know that I am not saying you don't believe in vows or value these things...I am more attempting to say that OP can not really remove themselves from their accountability in their actions...
though some often try to....I call it denial at best and just plain lying at worst...

OP have a hard time convincing me that they value vows...vows have a global community meaning and do not exclusively exist only within two persons...
OP that say they want to take vows with the person that they participated in breaking between others...are in my opinion the exact definition of hypocracy...

i see the OP directly emeshed with the BS...a direct cause of great pain/harm to them...

sorry for the threadjack...
ARK

Ms Red,

I want to be gentle here. You are in the position that my former lover was in. She thought that my fiance was not right for me and bad and all those things.

I lied to her just as I lied to the woman who matterred to me. There is nothing flattering about being chosen as an affair partner. I told the OW what she wanted to hear so I could go by her house, screw her, then leave. She was an outlet, a plaything, someone to be used and discarded.

Oh, but he loves you right? Then why does he leave you alone at night and go back to his wife? Which lie is he using, I have a comprehensive list... Pick one:

1. I am going to leave her for you, but this is a bad time.

2. I love you and wish I was married to you but I don't want to hurt her

3. Let's just focus on us, what we have is real, I'll make a change, I promise.

Something close to that? Here is the translation of what that means : "I like coming over here and using you for great sex with no responsibility... I can come over, let you stroke my ego, screw you senseless and then return home after showering your filthiness off of me"

Love you? Hardly. He loves having sex with you, loves pretending he is a good man and seeing you believe it.

He has zero respect for you. He likes having a woman he loves and respects (wife) and a prostitute he doesn't have to pay in you. What a deal!

Your instinct is to tell me I am full of it and don't know him right? Guess again. I WAS him. I can see you thinking the betrayed wives here who rip into you are just plain jealous and bitter and not believing them... won't work on me, I can recite his whole playbook because I used to run the same plays. The lies i told to the woman I did love were horrible and I feel awful for having done it. Lying to the OW??? Doesn't phase me a bit. I said whatever I needed to to get her to behave like a callgirl, showered her off and left. My pets mean more than she did to me.

Let's say he leaves his wife for you... in two years you'll find him lying to another woman as gullible as you while screwing her brains out.

Wake up. If you were more than recreation he would not go back to his wife. You are going to cause her so much pain that she may never love again. She may wind up killing herself or him OR YOU as a result of the grief. Go look in the mirror - you are screwing another woman's husband and afterward he discards you like garbage and goes home. He may make you feel loved for a few minutes... Loved? Don't fool yourself. If he has not left his wife and is lying to her it tells me very clearly that he loves using you but has no respect for you.

Your choice. Be a person of integrity or a lying thief. You are taking what is not yours and trying to put a good face on it by understanding his wife? Understand she is being betrayed and you are helping. If you knowingly allow him to treat you like a whore than what does that make you?

Sorry if this hurts, quit lying to yourself and start living an honest life instead of trying to justify your deceitful and selfish life.

There's nothing, really, to try to understand about why a BS does what he or she does, much the same way it's pointless for a BS to try and understand what WS/OP does or doesn't do. It's an amazingly irrational thing all of us are dealing with. To try and reationalize -- or make sense of it -- it is futile. The understanding comes in knowing you have choices and the ability to act on them now. You're ahead of the game right now ... moreso than MM is ... moreso than many of the other OPs that come here are. You have an opportunity to do what's right.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Miss Priss:

Ms Red......I can tell you waht will happen if you call her. YOU will be the bad guy.....to him and to her.

You aren't necessarily the bad guy now....since you aren't forcing him to have an affair with you.

YOU are not the one hurting his wife.....he is doing that by himself.

[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Perhaps it's because I am a BS, but those words REALLY steamed me...NO she isn't "forcing"him to have illicit sex with her, but niether is HE "forcing" her to become a cheat and a liar...SHE CHOOSES TO DO THAT!!! The OW and the WH BOTH choose to inflict pain on the BW...While SHE has no choice but to deal with it and go on.

Ms.Red,
You are an adult with a mind of your own...you KNOW what you are doing is deeply hurtful to another human being and intrinsicly WRONG...yet you still try to find "reasons" why it's "acceptable" (such as trying to "figure out" the reasons behind the BW's thought process that says she chooses to believe and trust the man that SWORE before God and witnesses that he would love her, honor her and protect her, forsaking ALL OTHERS, keeping him ONLY unto her for as long as they both shall live)

An A is NOT a "mistake" it is a concious decision that two foolish, selfish people make when their wants are the ONLY thing they care about.

The ONLY thing YOU need to "figure out" is how can you be happy being ANY mans DIRTY LITTLE SECRET!

Ms.Red, Some of what I write might seem harsh but I intend it to be of a positive manner and help to you. You have asked a couple of questions... <blockquote>quote:<hr />does she really believe that he will just stop seeing this other woman and just overnight stop loving her and seeing her just because he says so?
<hr /></blockquote>I can assure you that his betrayed wife wants to believe him more than anything else in the world.
It is almost a form of survival.To quote another betrayed spouse...
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> d-day ... what can I say?.... a hand grenade exploding from the chest... the sudden loss of gravity .... all air sucked from the body ... equlibrium vanishes ... <hr /></blockquote>She is not stupid or gullible...she is devastated,wounded all the way to her soul..There is NO OTHER PAIN OR HORRIFYING EXPERIENCE LIKE IT! Go over to the In Recovery area and read the posts on "Do Affairs Really Hurt worse Than Rape?" thread by Petermg. Maybe you will get an idea of WHY she would want to believe him.You have no clue of the pain and devastation you are helping to bring into another human beings life,heart and mind.You said a "respectful" question.Is that an indication that you just might be feeling that you are doing something that is very wrong?I hope so.Yes,she will try in every way possible to believe him.As far as her believing that he will just stop seeing you AND stop loving you...you see, he has more than likely assured her that he does not love you and never has.Isn't it strange that if he loves you so much that he cannot just tell her he loves you,does not want to be with her any longer,end the M,no matter what thwe results and marry you? Let's see....he says it is about finances,her being sooooo emotional,waiting for the stock market to get better,for her elderly sick parents to die,blah,blah,blah....He knows what is right but you are helping him to enjoy being so wrong and ..and ..and..

I will guarantee you that what you think is love from him is
more of an addiction to the feelings he gets from being the "stud" and being able to take care of 2 women,having a life outside the M and being the "man" at home.Self mirroring,"look at me",ego stroking,the old "I've got it all" attitude,and you are being his sucker! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Feelings of infatuation only last 2-4 years at the most and then it takes work on a daily basis to keep the relationship working in a progressive and lovefilled way.You get only his best side.She gets all sides. Is this your first relationship with a man? What is your background,age,marital situation.Maybe we could be of more help to you if you will share with us.That is what this forum is about.

A reason for his telling her it is over with you and continuing to see you..from the same BS as before..... <blockquote>quote:<hr /> The guilty suffer. They begin to hate themselves. The guilt hurts ... so they numb the hurt .... but keep doing the behavior that causes the hurt. Vicious cycle. <hr /></blockquote>Again,that is called "ADDICTION." Not love in it's true form. Same as with a substance.If you would stop enabling him in this addiction,he would go into recovery.With his wife.He does not belong to you,Ms Red.He is not your soulmate.It is a "buzz" and he is addicted. Another former BS quote..
<blockquote>quote:<hr />My H said to me after D-day : "I didn't know how to stop." ... And, at the time, I was pretty harsh and said that was a load of crappola and when you want to stop ... you just stop. Now, I understand what H was saying a lot better. They often DO want to stop. It is sooooo stressful. But, they're hooked on the buzz . <hr /></blockquote>So are you.Respect yourself enough to end it and find someone who is right for you.You can do it.What you send out to others WILL come back to you.

I hope that you will find the backbone to end the A and move on with your life.I hope you will reach deep inside of your present selfish,selfcentered self and decide that you will do the right thing and end this and find a man that is single,free and who loves,protects,defends,honors and is committed to just ONE woman..YOU.Just as the MM should be doing with his WIFE.

From you...
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Can she tell herself that and how does she do that?
He never stopped calling or seeing me from day one after the blow-out yet she seems to be just fine now, believing that he will never see me again and all is well.
<hr /></blockquote>The same way you are doing it.I think you are trying to belittle the wife rather than understand her.Are you going on what he is telling you or have you actually spoken with her.She might even KNOW that you are still seeing each other and waiting quietly in the wings.There are many things to be cautious of when you are an OW in an A. Maybe she has a plan that will give him to you, minus the money to buy you those expensive gifts,or the mortgage payment or food or anything else.You WILL grow to resent her getting everything.
"A wise old owl sat in an oak.The more he heard, the less he spoke.The less he spoke,the more he heard. The wife of your lover might be that wise bird!"

Some distraught BS's have mamed and taken the lives of the "in love" lovers.He would not want you to feel unsafe now would he? If you feel threatened,you might not see him anymore so he would need to make you believe she has no clue.He would tell you she suspects nothing so as to make YOU happy and comfortable.Not much on protecting you is it? I am just throwing some realities out to you and hoping to help you understand the woman you are stealing from.Half of his money is hers,not yours nor all his.Doesn't matter if she works or not.So if she did not agree on buying you those expensive gifts,someone owes her half of the money spent.The intrusion into her home is a real nasty thing on your part.Where in the name of God was your morals and self respect? It is already obvious that they are compomised by the A with MM but to be in HER home with HER husband. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> That one is just plain inexcusable to me.Why in her home?Do you have an H or live in BF? Why not at your place or ask for a motel room?

He is lying.She believes him and SO DO YOU! Are you any different from her? She wants to believe he loves her...you want to believe he loves you.She believes he loves her because he is still with her ...you want to believe he loves you because he still is with you.Vicious cycle. Since you are not his wife,why not be the one who decides not to be used any longer and break the cyle by ending the A.If he does it with you,he will do it to you.

You came here for answers and I know we are giving you far more than you asked for.If you are trying to make what you are doing all right it will not happen.Not in your lifetime. I hope you will open your heart and mind to what you are given here.Some of it will sound harsh but it is given with full intent to help you find self respect and dignity by breaking out of the cycle that leads to devastation...on everyone's part.You deserve more than a MM.You do not deserve to waste your time and life on something and someone that does not belong to you.

[ March 18, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: kings kid ]

I coudn't agree more with BHF1111, if you feel the need to understand his wife , well go and have coffee .

After all you think you are all entangled , then what the harm . I mean you share .... why not share your thoughts .

why she belives him , well you don't know she does I mean my H is seeing OW also he tells me when he is with her and when she calls . He also tells me she don't know he is home , DO I belive his resons HE!! NO .

I am with him why? I love him and want him to own up to his actions .

There are millions of resons for a wife to stay , but not one for the OW .

He is a M man you know it thats it keep walkin and if the scumbuckit lied to you in the beging and said he wasn't , well now you know he is thats all .

All of these situations are cut and dry .

M do not touch , if M and you need to cheat get a divorce .

Thats just me I tell my H all the time it is simple .
Leave if thats what makes you happy , stay ONLY with me if you want M .

JMO

[ March 18, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: 3isacrowd ]

Dear Ms Red

Read the post from 2OFAKIND, he says it true.

This man cheats on his wife with you but you think he loves you, not her, even after 2 years...Trust us here, he is telling her you are nothing just easy and sleazy. And why does she believe him?...well because your actions tell her it's true.
Now, here's my question to you... How do you KNOW FOR A FACT that she knows you were in her house, that you got expensive gifts ect.? It sounds to me like you let her know. That my dear, is just plain cruel. And yet he is still not with you, trust me it's because he has done some pretty fast skating and told her all kinds of loving things AND denied you.

Yes you should get out of this and never get together with a married man again.
Can I "respectfully" tell you a little story about a wife who had affection, love letters, gifts, nice outings, sex, was told all the time she was her husband's soulmate, and on and on... Well this cute, loving, honest, faithful, working on her marriage woman had no clue her husband was seeing another woman on the side, none. Actually if someone would have told her she would have smiled and told them they were wrong. One morning after the man and wife had a nice date and sex, the hubby tells the wife he has been unfaithful "because she deserves to know". He tells her it was never love, it was just a timely ego (ahem) stroke. The wife fights for days not to kill herself. The wife suffers both physically and mentally like she never has before and she will likely suffer from this until the day she dies. The wife really never earned this, she just loved and trusted. If her husband had died, she would mourn with dignity but here she mourns but has had her dignity stolen. This is my story and let me tell you, I think the OW is scum. My husband was terrible but so was this woman. Had the OW been a friend to him, she would have said from the beginning to go tell any dissatisfaction in his marriage to his wife. And a woman with any respect either for herself or for innocent, unsuspecting people would never get involved with a married man.

I am heartbroken, I am afraid to trust, I am hurt sexually, I had to be tested for STD's after 15 years with him, I am in therapy, have lost weight (in my case not a good thing) have taken medication to sleep, am haunted, feel unloved, foolish for trusting and yet, my husband begs me to give him just one chance. This is what you have helped do to another woman.
Yes it is ugly. Stop. Become a better person and never hurt anyone that way again. Please.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />does she really believe that he will just stop seeing this other woman and just overnight stop loving her and seeing her just because he says so? <hr /></blockquote>No. If she is honest w/ herself, she doesn't believe this.... but because he hasn't left her yet... she keeps hoping that he will stop seeing the OW and rededicate himself to the marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Can she tell herself that and how does she do that? <hr /></blockquote>hope springs eternal? She probably does it for the same reasons you have been willing to be an OW for two years. You love him. She loves him. She has history with him. maybe kids. She's not ready to give up on her marriage or him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He never stopped calling or seeing me from day one after the blow-out yet she seems to be just fine now, believing that he will never see me again and all is well. <hr /></blockquote>Unless YOU see her day-to-day, you cannot believe this. I know I didn't believe he would stop seeing OW... I still find it hard to believe that 'they' don't have plans to meet up in the future. I still have the fear. Perhaps she is just doing well @ hiding her fears.

Both wife and OW would do well to put up some GOOD BOUNDARIES w/ their H or MM.

Cali

MS. Red,

He does not love you, if he did he would be showing you more respect than this. He is disrespecting you.

My WH, finds those who are involved in A's as totally disgusting. However, he himself is involved in an A. Go figure. So, if he thinks people who cheat are disgusting, what does he thing of his OW. I know, "she is fun" Well of course she is, she does not have to deal with the responsiblilities of bills, house cleaning, hockey schedules, dance schedules, soccer schedules, school schedules, work schedules. Paying bills on unemployment. You name it, I have been through it with him. She has the freedom to get up and go when she feels like it. I cannot, I have kids who are too young to be left at home alone. He wants the thrill and freedom of a single life, and he wants his family life.

My H cheated on me once before, we split up over it. At this time, we had 2 children, and were not married. We were supposed to get married. The plans were cancelled after D-Day (which of course he denied). (still does). 6 months later, we are dating, sort of. Mostly he came over to see the kids, and things started to work themselves out. Two years later we married. I found out recently that she is still in his life, probably was never out of it. Why did he chose to marry me and not her? Probably because he does not respect her. He also does not respect me. If he did, he would not be seeing her. He sneaks around. We now have 3 children and have been married 5 years. Do the math, do you want to find yourself 7 years later and still the OW? That is 7 years wasted on a man who will more than likely cheat on you. Mine cheated on her with me. I didn't know they were still together. He told me that they were not together. Remember, he denies that they ever were together. He did not like it when I started moving on with my life. He realized he was losing me. And in reality he was.

Do not give this man any more of your time. He is not worth it. You need to find yourself a single man who will respect you and cherish you for who you are. Not someone that has to sneak around with you.

I would hate to see you waste anymore time on this relationship. He has no intentions of leaving her. If he did, he would have.

Here is a statistic to think about. Only about 5% of affairs result in successful marriages. A prettly low amount. I would not bet my future on this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms. Red:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jph:
Ms Red...how do you know that you know the whole story? He's lying to you just as he's lying to her.

I wonder if you were so confident of your relationship would you feel the need to post here.<hr /></blockquote>I'm not confident about anything, that is why all the questions regarding all three of us. I'm trying to understand. I have absolutely no idea what he tells her anymore than she does of what he tells me. I know that much. I think he is trying to stuff everything back in and have what he did before without scrutiny from her or questions from me. Thanks for your input.<hr /></blockquote>Is this for real? We live in a country where women are FREE to choose their partner and you are with someone else's man who is a liar and a cheat? My God. What a frivolous, insane forfeiture of one's freedom. You don't have to settle for that. We are not in Afghanistan. Please start using your freedom wisely.

Maybe it's because I'm in Recovery.....or that I've let go of all the anger and I no longer "think" about my H's A or the OW that let's me think "outside the box".

My H's OW never really hurt me, even though she was involved in an A with my H. Yes....she clung to the relationship she had with my H just as I did. Why.....because she loved him as much as I did. It was't a fantasy....it was real.

It wasn't possible for my H to love us both equally.....but it was possible for both of us to love him as much as we did. Therefore both of us kept fighting for what we wanted. My H.

Why did she feel justified in doing this? Because my H fed her a pack of lies.....and who was she going to believe....him or me? That's a no brainer.

Why is that some of us can't understand that with the lies that the WS tells that the feelings the OP has aren't justified. They are capable of loving just as much as we are....and ALL A's are NOT fantasies.

I can put myself in the OW's shoes now and I can honestly tell you.....with what she had to go on.....I would have faught as hard as she did for my H.

I'm used to being flamed.....and I'm sure it won't be the last time.

Of course at first I also blamed everything on the OW.......why?
Because by blaming her I didn't have to blame the person I loved the most....my H.
She did it all......she lured him into it....she kept making contact.....she did it all.

Not true.....my H knew exactly what he was doing.......he kept luring her.....and he kept contacting her.

Why didn't she just tell him to get lost?
Because she loved him......just as much as I did.

Sometimes it's not so easy to do the right thing.

Miss Priss, Honey and others....thank you for your replies. Some were very thoughtful and thought provoking. Miss Priss, I think you understand the situation a lot. There are no children involved. That does not make me a "better" OW, just one that wouldn't be involved if there were. They don't have children together.

I never really had expectations about what she or he would or would not do. Well, he had already told me what he would do and he did. Because he said the thing he SHOULD have done was deal with the marriage first and leave if he needed to, but not have an affair. He just never planned to have the feelings become involved the way they did.

I will leave it up to the forum here and look for a general feeling among you as to whether to continue to post. To everyone that did, thanks and take care.

Ms. Red, does it make you feel really good that this MM has "feelings" for you? That he bought you gifts, took you on trips, and proclaimed his love? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I'm sorry, but I tend to agree with most of the posters here. He's using you. Consider the gifts a payoff for sex. If he "really loved you" he would not still be with his wife after two years.

If you won't think about his wife, then think of yourself. How old are you? Do you want to spend the best years of your life servicing a MM? What happens when you wish to marry for yourself...will you be able to find someone? Think of your future...ditch him and find someone who is available to you.

Okay Ms. Red, I cannot let the below statement go without addressing it:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Ms. Red wrote:
There are no children involved. That does not make me a "better" OW, just one that wouldn't be involved if there were. They don't have children together. <hr /></blockquote>I have to say I needed to count to 10 before typing this, Hon.

So it's okay to be involved with a married man if he doesn't have children???!!!

I have to ask, do you respect the marriage vow? I suspect you would if it were YOUR marriage.

Regardless if they have children or not, how can you reconcile respecting marriage vows, yet you are invading someone else's marriage? That's exactly what you are doing.

This justification of "there's no children, so it's not so bad" is just that, it's a form of denial. You are significantly contributing to the destruction of a marriage. If it were your marriage, believe me, you'd be feeling quite differently, children or no children.

Try some empathy or compassion, Hon. Just because it's only one person you & MM are completely devistating, as opposed to two or three or four people, does not make it OKAY.

Discovery of infidelity in your marraige is more traumatic than the death of a loved one. We've had members come here contemplating suicide because of it. Maybe it's just one person (his wife) to you, but she is just as feeling and human as you.

<Still counting to cool off ....>

Jo

[ March 18, 2003, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Ms. Red
Junior Member
Member # 26437

posted March 18, 2003 08:16 PM
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Miss Priss, Honey and others....thank you for your replies. Some were very thoughtful and thought provoking. Miss Priss, I think you understand the situation a lot. There are no children involved. That does not make me a "better" OW, just one that wouldn't be involved if there were. They don't have children together. <hr /></blockquote>Ms. Red,

I cannot say that I understand the situation......but I can understand the feelings involved. I can understand that the feelings that you have for him is what makes it so hard for you to let go.

In no way have I ever said that I think what you are doing is right......it's not. It's not for you......him....or his wife.

Whether or not they have children SHOULD NOT make a difference to you. Either way they are still married....children or no children.

He obvioulsy isn't going to leave his wife.....I think you should know that by now.

Do I think your the "bad guy"? No.

If that riles people up and gets me flamed....that's fine....it's my opinion.

I don't blame the OW in my situation. She was made to believe that we were getting a divorce.....the reason it was taking so long he told her was because he needed to give me time to get a job so I could support our children after the divorce......seems like a believable excuse to me.

So.....thinking that she would have my H to herself.....she let her feelings grow even more.....not her fault my H was lying to her the whole time.

Was their A a fantasy? No.

They had TRUE feelings for each other. They even went so far as discussing the possibility of having children together. Not sure the thought of marriage passed their minds or not though.

What turned my H against her?

Not the way she treated him or our daughters.....or me for that fact. It was the way she handled her divorce...her children...and her ex H. It had nothing to do with my H....me or our children.

Lucky for him I had enough feelings left for him to take him back........though he knows that something like this happening again will certainly end up in divorce....by my choice.

In no way do I agree with A's.......but being on both sides of the fence.....I understand HOW they happen....and WHY they happen.....and why it's so hard to let go on either side.

The best thing for you to do is break away from this guy.....he's a classic WS. He'll string you and wife along for as long as you both let him.

Remember........people treat you the way YOU allow them to treat you.

[ March 19, 2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]

The sad thing about this ow is that she's making herself feel better by rationalizing that there's no children involved. Little does she know that her actions are definately affecting children yet born. If this marriage survives this affair which more than likely will happen as he's made no move to leave his wife, the children born into this marriage will suffer from the damage they have done to the relationship between husband and wife. She can rationalize that it's his fault but in truth ow is just as responsible.

The horrors I've experience over the past few years I wouldn't go through again for love nor money (an old southern expression)...they're horrible yet the lessons I've learned are priceless and could only have come about by experience. With all that said, I'd rather be in my position than my h. I have the heartache-I don't have the searing guilt on top of it. In the past few year, my h has aged 10 and we're seeing the ramifications from that situation in our daughter and it's heartbreaking. Not a pretty picture.

Go ahead, ow, continue in this relationship, look for rationalizations, live in the dream world that this will eventually have a positive impact, waste your life...but know this, when you come out of the back end of this, you'll experience heartache that you can't begin to imagine right now. And when you come to the end of your life, I would be willing to bet that this relationship will top the list of things you regret.

Ms. Red,

I, for one, am glad you came to this board. I usually hang out over at the pregnancy/child board because...well because that is where my H's affair landed us. He has a child he rarely sees, we spend 20% of his pay for 21 years on child support and I have a step child.

Their relationship lasted 7 years (on and off). It began when he was 32 and she was 23. One of the first things I said to him was "Shame on you for stealing her young years from her, for robbing her of the time when she should have been finding a single man and starting a family of her own."

He and I are together and are in recovery. She lives life as a successful and good single mother. She is raising a wonderful child but she is alone, something she never wanted. We have gone on to adopt two children. exOW and their daughter, Precious, live 2,000 miles from us and we make visits when we can. We have worked out some sort of a working relationship between the three adults, but none of the children know of the other ones---yet but the time is coming when we will have to tell them. exOW would like for she and I to be friends. I have more empathy for exOW than most women in my situation, but a friendship between us is not possible, she tried to steal my life--regardless of if there were children in our marriage or not. She wanted my husband, his (then) huge income, our (almost) jet set life. Besides, a friendship with her would be a huge betrayl on my part of our marriage. If I told stories on him to her or formed some sort of alliance against him it would be (almost) as wrong as what he did. One thing I am grateful for is that both he and she admit that he never, not once in 7 years tore me down in front of her. Shame on your MM for doing that to his wife.

The saddest thing I think I have ever heard is that she told me "When I lost your husband, I lost my best friend." I felt physically ill. If she can define what he did to her (and she willingly participated in) as friendship I am very, well I don't know what I am....What he did was use two women to meet his own selfish needs. He was a "friend" to neither one of us and I told him so. I said "for seven years you were not my friend, you were, in fact, my worst enemy, living in my home. You willingly did, over and over again, what nearly drove me to suicide. (I spent 6 weeks in a psychiatric hospital after D-day.) You stole money from our marriage, you created a child in the face of my infertility, you lied to me each and every day, every time you told me you loved me was a lie because when you love someone you don't do what you did." I also said "But I have faith in you. You had great integrity when I met and married you. I believe that you can be that person again, but you will have to show me that you are capable of that. You don't get points for just staying."

He suffered through two years of hideous depression and searing guilt for his actions--and I didn't rub his face in it either. To the contrary, I did my best to help him recover. I am much further along in recovery than he is. I am not sure he will ever be the man I married. He is honest and faithful once again, he is good to me, he is a good father, but he is, in many ways, a shell of his former self. And I don't mean his income, which is 1/5th of what it used to be, I mean he is wounded to the depths of his soul. He may never feel worthy again.

You are not only particpating in the potential destruction of his wife and his marriage, but you may be a major player in the destruction of this man you love.

Please get out now before all involved are destroyed and you wind up a single mother.

Blessings,
MJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I will leave it up to the forum here and look for a general feeling among you as to whether to continue to post <hr /></blockquote>Ms. Red,
You are welcome to post, just remember this is MarriageBuilders and you are not the one in the marriage.

You will have a great deal of support for getting out of this affair. I doubt I'm exaggerating if I say you will have NO support for continuing.

If you have the time, check the posts of Katie Scarlet . She is a former OW who has been posting here since 11/01 (700+ posts). She's out of her affair and in a good relationship with a single guy. I personally really respect the changes she has made in her life.

Well said, Lor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms. Red:
There are no children involved. That does not make me a "better" OW, just one that wouldn't be involved if there were. They don't have children together.<hr /></blockquote>So, you are saying you COULD control behaviours that are related to your emotions IF there were children involved. But, since there are no children involved you cannot? It's "ok" to aid and abet in the emotional harm of an adult as long as no kids are around? How is this even a pretense at logic or ethics?

If he had lied and said there were no children and you later discovered there were, would you leave the relationship? If so, why?

I am trying without success to understand this line of thinking. Best I can come up with is that adults are fair game? That you don't "owe" anything to the wife, but you would "owe" something to any children they might have? It's ethically acceptable to be the recipient of stolen goods (any $ spent on you is stolen from the marital assets) as long as they are stolen from the wife and not children?

Is this correct?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Miss Priss:
Maybe it's because I'm in Recovery.....or that I've let go of all the anger and I no longer "think" about my H's A or the OW that let's me think "outside the box".

<hr /></blockquote>Miss Priss, I think often folks here confuse a rightful anger at flagrant INJUSTICE with a supposed bias and wrongly try to dismiss it. One doesn't have to have been the victim of an affair to get angry at the malicious, despicable actions of an OP *AND* the WS. The OP also hurts the BS so it doesn't work to try and pretend they don't cause great damage and contribute to the injustice. I don't believe its "thinking outside of the box" to sit silently in the face of evil, but rather the result of a muted conscience or moral cowardice.

Good people do get angry when they see injustice and I think that better explains some of the strong reactions here, rather than some kind of imagined "growth" on the part of those who have no reaction to injustice.

[ March 19, 2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

Melodylane,
<blockquote>quote:<hr />The OP also hurts the BS so it doesn't work to try and pretend they don't cause great damage and contribute to the injustice. I don't believe its "thinking outside of the box" to sit silently in the face of evil, but rather the result of a muted conscience or moral cowardice.

Good people do get angry when they see injustice and I think that better explains some of the strong reactions here, rather than some kind of imagined "growth" on the part of those who have no reaction to injustice <hr /></blockquote>WOW! Fantastic! Well,said and oh,so true. Thanks. kk

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MelodyLane:
[QUOTE]I think often folks here confuse a rightful anger at flagrant INJUSTICE with a supposed bias and wrongly try to dismiss it. One doesn't have to have been the victim of an affair to get angry at the malicious, despicable actions of an OP *AND* the WS. The OP also hurts the BS so it doesn't work to try and pretend they don't cause great damage and contribute to the injustice. I don't believe its "thinking outside of the box" to sit silently in the face of evil, but rather the result of a muted conscience or moral cowardice.

Good people do get angry when they see injustice and I think that better explains some of the strong reactions here, rather than some kind of imagined "growth" on the part of those who have no reaction to injustice.<hr /></blockquote>To paraphrase one of my favourite quotes ~The only way for evil [read: a wrong, an injustice] to triumph is for good people to do nothing. And if good people do nothing, then they aren't so good.~

Crayongirl, I know I am quoting this wrong, but my favorite rendition of your thought is:

"Evil thrives when good men stand silent."

Amazing how silence has become a supposed "virtue" in this generation.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> MelodyLane
Member
Member # 9787

posted March 19, 2003 07:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Miss Priss:
Maybe it's because I'm in Recovery.....or that I've let go of all the anger and I no longer "think" about my H's A or the OW that let's me think "outside the box".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miss Priss, I think often folks here confuse a rightful anger at flagrant INJUSTICE with a supposed bias and wrongly try to dismiss it. One doesn't have to have been the victim of an affair to get angry at the malicious, despicable actions of an OP *AND* the WS. The OP also hurts the BS so it doesn't work to try and pretend they don't cause great damage and contribute to the injustice. I don't believe its "thinking outside of the box" to sit silently in the face of evil, but rather the result of a muted conscience or moral cowardice.

Good people do get angry when they see injustice and I think that better explains some of the strong reactions here, rather than some kind of imagined "growth" on the part of those who have no reaction to injustice.
<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I don't believe its "thinking outside of the box" to sit silently in the face of evil, but rather the result of a muted conscience or moral cowardice. <hr /></blockquote>So I am sitting silently in the face of evil and I am a coward morally?

I do believe I've told Ms. Red that what I think what she is doing is wrong....I think she knows that.....I don't think she needs it explained in detail of all the things that are wrong with it.

I'm also pretty sure that I'm not a coward....in any way shape or form. I say what's on my mind....and speak my opinion......whether others agree with it or not.....doesn't matter to me since others are allowed to have thier own opinions....nobody has to agree with me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Good people do get angry when they see injustice and I think that better explains some of the strong reactions here, rather than some kind of imagined "growth" on the part of those who have no reaction to injustice. <hr /></blockquote>Now I have imagined "growth" and have no reaction to injustice........and I'm not "good" people......because I don't seem to get angry at "injustice".

I don't believe I ever said that nobody here has a right to be angry.

As I've had to explain over and over.....I post according to MY OWN experiences. What I took from it, got out of it.....and what I went through, what I felt.

Why don't I seem angry? Because Ms. Red never did anything to me. She isn't my H's FOW. I feel more pity for her than anything really. Wasting her time with a man that isn't worth her or his wifes time.

One would think that I was an OW......just because I speak my mind.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Why don't I seem angry? Because Ms. Red never did anything to me. She isn't my H's FOW."<hr /></blockquote>MissPriss

Maybe it doesn't make you "angry" to see injustice done to other people. Some people can sit right by and watch all sorts of destruction and never have a flutter of the heart as long as it happens to someone else. However, most people are not like that. Nor is it a sign of "growth," but a lack of empathy at best.

You differentiated yourself from the others who did show rightful anger by dismissing their opinions as "biased" and claiming that your lack of reaction was from "growth."

I am only saying that whatever the reason you can stand silent in the face of evil, I assure you it is anything BUT "growth." Your remark that "Why don't I seem angry? Because Ms. Red never did anything to me. She isn't my H's FOW." says it all.

I am not trying to pick on you, but I only wanted to point out how wrong and misguided it is to dismiss strong reactions to injustice as a "lack of growth." It is anything BUT.

[ March 20, 2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

Ms red,
his wife believes his bull **** because she wants to believe him. I fed my wife the same line.
I was a good liar, I was just more careful after I got caught the first time. Didn't do anything to
make her think I was still cheating.
Are you involved in another relationship or just with mm? Do you want him to leave his wife? If you
do, what excuse is he giving you for not doing so?
It can't be the kids, is it the fact, she will get half of everything? or is she in bad health?
All these excuses are lies, he's lying to both of you. If you want out, send him a no contact letter and stick to it, easier said than done but find a hobby, throw yourself into it, find a single guy, put something else on your mind.
He's really not worth it.

Miss priss,
I am honest in my opinions too, it's what I felt in my situation, nobody bothers to even reply to me unless it's some kind of put down, just let it roll, there are probably a lot of lurkers that agree with you but are too afraid of speaking up.

MelodyLane, You posted with eloquence,courage and perfection.Thank you.

I am one who cannot stand by and feel and say nothing in the face of blatant injustice,abuse,evil or intentional indifference.I have gotten in some tight spots in my life standing up and speaking out but I would not go back and do any differently.It is also very rewarding when someone, so indifferent or noncaring, opens their mind and heart to positive change after being called out or being told their behavior is unacceptable.It rarely happens when the heart and character is self centered and self serving but sometimes it does happen.

Don't ever change MelodyLane.The Man above is proud and will reward you for your being who you are.The indifferent people who will
see the "light" and make a change for the better will never forget your words and lesson. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The ones you speak out for will appreciate your courage and concern,too.

I am hoping Ms.Red is the one who posted on the Prayer Request by Sorry2 titled..
Topic: I can't make it Right, But God can fix it.

Maybe,just maybe,the fact that some spoke up and gave her the info we did helped her to be one that has seen the "light" and made a change.Maybe it was another OW that read the posts and made the change.It is the only way we can help make this a better world to live in,one word spoken in defense,one at a time.

from my hero,
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable.Be honest and frank anyway. The biggest person with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest person with the smallest mind. Think big anyway. What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight. Build anyway. People really need help but may attack if you help them.
Help people anyway. Give the world the best you have and you might get kicked in the teeth.
Give the world the best you've got anyway.Help people anyway.
<hr /></blockquote>Mother Teresa
Catholic Missionary, Nobel Peace Prize Recipient

kk

kingskid, thanks much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ March 20, 2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

MsRed, the truth is, if he wanted to be married to you, he'd already be divorced from his wife.
My FWH fed the OW a line a mile long. Told the two OW he had A's with that he was getting divorced and so on.
Problem is he forgot to tell me. And when I found out about A, he dropped them like hot coals.
However, as long as he can get you to believe him and his W too, he has it made.
While my H was telling last OW he was filing and going to marry her, he was taking me on a trip to look at new homes to buy in another state.
And making decisions that would tie us together even more.
Now, any man who is getting out of his marriage will not be investing more in things with Wifes name on them!
So I found out he was lying as much to her as to me.
You are simply a bit of sexual variety on the side. And he is still making love to his wife.
For the record, most men who have A's say the sex with OW is not as good as with wife, just different. Why? Because the wife knows him better than you do or will.
You're being used and kept from having a real relationship where you can be number 1!
Believe me when I tell you this, I'm not trying to be cruel. You do deserve better and so does his W.
Very few men leave wife for OW. Of those who do, only 5% last in their relationship.
And why do you want a man who will cheat? Because you think you're special? Or better than she as a woman?
Not so dear. If he cheats on her, he'll cheat on you. Because after the initial tingle dies down, he'll be off and hunting again.
Please read as much on A's as you can. you'll find you're truly in a losing battle that will eat up years of your life and leave you wondering why you allowed it to happen. Move on and find a single man. There are many who are out there looking, and probably far better than this jerk.
God bless, LouLou

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Maybe it doesn't make you "angry" to see injustice done to other people. Some people can sit right by and watch all sorts of destruction and never have a flutter of the heart as long as it happens to someone else. However, most people are not like that. Nor is it a sign of "growth," but a lack of empathy at best. <hr /></blockquote>Does it make me angry to see injustice done to others? No......it makes me mad.....these are 2 different things. Anger leads to Hate and Hate leads to Resentment......and I've had enough of that. BUT.....because I didn't shout out at the OW in this case I now have no empathy. Sorry....I cannot convey my TRUE feelings through this keyboard very well. I don't think slingning mud in the OW's face is really the way to solve anything.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
You differentiated yourself from the others who did show rightful anger by dismissing their opinions as "biased" and claiming that your lack of reaction was from "growth." <hr /></blockquote>That is where YOU ALL misunderstood my post....again...hard to convy what you feel through a keyboard.

I dismissed NO ONES opinions and never once claimed they were biased.

I simply stated that since I'm past some of what most people here are going through I think I can understand her FEELINGS better based on my own experience.

My reason for saying that being that most people here are still in the midst of dealing with a W/H that is involved in an A so their reaction to an OP is going to be based on what they are going through NOW.

My lack of reaction? Not really sure what YOU consider a lack of reaction.......maybe I should have called her BI$%H and told her she was worth nothing but the trouble she was causing? That SHE was the cause of everything and that she deserved EVERYTHING she was getting.

Sorry....that's not how I feel. I can only post based upon my experiences since they are the only ones I have.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am only saying that whatever the reason you can stand silent in the face of evil, I assure you it is anything BUT "growth." Your remark that "Why don't I seem angry? Because Ms. Red never did anything to me. She isn't my H's FOW." says it all. <hr /></blockquote>I think that my "growth" is the reason why I'm not getting riled up about this. Just because I haven't told her off I've been told I have no empathy. I'm not mad at Ms. Red....she didn't do anything to me. BUT.....her situation makes me mad.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am not trying to pick on you, but I only wanted to point out how wrong and misguided it is to dismiss strong reactions to injustice as a "lack of growth." It is anything BUT. <hr /></blockquote>Not trying to pick on me? Not that I really mind.......but you've done more than that.

AND.....I never once said anyone here had no right to be mad or angry.....never once stated that anyone here had a lack of growth.

I'm done trying to explain myself and my post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> OnlyHuman
Member
Member # 15895

posted March 20, 2003 10:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miss priss,
I am honest in my opinions too, it's what I felt in my situation, nobody bothers to even reply to me unless it's some kind of put down, just let it roll, there are probably a lot of lurkers that agree with you but are too afraid of speaking up. <hr /></blockquote>I know that other have the same opinions that I do......I've seen them post those opinions on other sites.....but they are too afraid to post those particular over here.

I would let it roll......had I not been put in a category that would make one assume I'm unfeeling and just downright "not right in the head".

TGIF <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> BUT.....because I didn't shout out at the OW in this case I now have no empathy.<hr /></blockquote>Noone said that you have to yell and call the OW names. My only objection to your remarks was your insistence that your lack of anger was a sign of "growth," implying that any angry reaction to her abhorrent actions indicated a lack thereof.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Does it make me angry to see injustice done to others? No......it makes me mad.....these are 2 different things. Anger leads to Hate and Hate leads to Resentment......and I've had enough of that.<hr /></blockquote>No, they are one and the same. Mad is a synonym for anger.

mad ( P ) Pronunciation Key (md)
adj. mad·der, mad·dest
Angry; resentful. See Synonyms at angry.

One should hate injustice. It is very healthy to become angry in the sight of injustice. I became very angry when I heard that Elizabeth Smart was raped by her abductor. Does that lead to "hate" and "resentment?" Maybe hate, but it is perfectly healthy to hate evil. It is UNHEALTHY to not feel anger for injustice.

[ March 21, 2003, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

OOO! This is my kind of debate! Anger vs. Mad...6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Technically anger is "passionate displeasure"

Anger has really gotten a bad rap, IMO. Anger is just an emotion, no better or worse than any other. Realistically, not much would get done in life if not for anger. The important thing is what you do with the anger. Righteous or constructive anger at social injustice has lead to social changes.

Though there are many shades of grey in the world, some things ARE black and white. There are right things and wrong things. These don't even have to be religiously based.

Non-consensual adultery is wrong. It angers me to see people do this. Now, what can I do constructively with that anger? If someone involved in an EMR asks a question, I can answer and explain why it's wrong and point out the theft. I can refuse to become involved in an EMR. I can refuse to enable an EMR. I cannot make someone else make good choices in this situation anymore than I can make another person choose fruit over a twinkie.

As well, I cannot condone by silence the notion that an OP is not involved in the BS's life. She is most intimately involved in a BS's life. The BS just doesn't know it. It's a situation analagous to identity theft. You don't know someone is using your personal information to rack up $1000's in debt, get jobs, etc. But it sure does have a lasting effect on your life.

Anger is justified. Anger motivates change. Asking someone to deny his anger is dangerous and can be lethal.

An aside, I didn't really see anyone bash MsRed, just give her information. It's likely MsRed didn't see how irrational (however respectfully framed) her question was. I'm betting she still doesn't.

Just for information's sake, my dictionary defines mad as :1) out of one's mind, crazy, insane 2) informal very angry, furious.

Miss Priss I'm 18 months ahead of you in recovery, posted to you through your bad times, in fact...and I don't think I've ever been less than honest in my posts. So, honestly, I too felt you were taking a superior position.

I didn't attack Ms. Red, just wanted her to think of why SHE was in this relationship. Afterall, the BS isn't here, she is (or was here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ).

I'm getting really really tired of people trying to tell me how I should feel and how I should react to something.

I am ME....I feel what I feel and I react the way I react.

Never once have I ever felt superiour to anyone on this board. How could I when we are all in the same boat?

Lor......I respected your opinions through my hardest times....and I respect them now.

I am sorry that my some of my opinions don't coincide with everyone elses here. I wasn't aware that they had to.

I will take my leave of this board....for the final time.....since I have no "empathy"....and I'm not "good people"....and I haven't "grown".....and feel "superior" to others.

I hope I helped at least 1 person.

First..I wanted to say thank you to Resilient. I copied and saved your post, as it spoke more to me than many of the books I have been reading lately to understand what the hell happened in my marriage.

Now, to Red. Are you with this man just because you like the victory of stealing him away from someone else? Like that somehow makes you a prettier/better/more desirable woman than the one he is with? My sister's best friend waisted years of her life like this. And that is what it all boiled down to...some twisted little ego boost she got from stealing men away from other women. Maybe that's not your case, but an interesting one to point out.

You know this is wrong. And even if he ever respected you enough to keep you around on a more permanent basis...how are you going to hold your head up when people ask you how you met? People will look at you like the village wh0re..is that what you want? I doubt it. And is that what you want your family to think about you? Is that what you want your life to be based on? Life and relationships are hard enough without all that added stress and shame.

You cannot possibly think that all these people on here who have responded to you are wrong and you are right? That what God wants is not right but what you want is. That is some severe denial. Is you really hate yourself that much, and need such a foolish relationship in order to boost your self-worth, then you should honestly think about some daily counceling.

Miss Priss,
I have no intention of driving you away <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

You know success stories are always needed and yours is a good inspiration.

Always wishing you the best...even if we happen not to agree.

I've been thinking about Ms. Red's questions. And I think I see now why WSs and OPs find it so easy, in fact without even thinking about it, can engage in violation of the BS's home and steal from the marital assets. Could it be that to both parties, the BS is not a person? S/he is just "The Wife/Husband." Like "The Secretary" or "The Car." Can be replaced or substituted without any repercussions, or moral involvement.

So an OW may well think it's okay for her to headhunt "The Wife's" position. Like jobhunting. But the sad thing is, should this MM actually trade his BS in for her, Ms. Red will then be "The Wife." And MM will have to look about for another "The Mistress." Because he is, in his own mind, playing the role of "The Married Man."

It's also possible that this BS is playing her role of "The Wife."
Ms. Red, the XOW in my situation said she held marriage vows sacred, would never come between a man and his wife, didn't mess with married men or nuthin'. Quotes. Her justification for not holding my H's and my vows sacred (she was also engaged to another man at the time, living with him, wedding date set, had jointly bought a house and acquired two dogs), for continually forcing her way between us, and messing with a married man was "she believed he'd made a mistake in choosing anybody but her." So, in her mind, the marriage wasn't real and didn't have to be respected. As her own engagement ring wasn't real….

[ March 21, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: juststartingover ]

MsRed, most likely, the time will come he has to make a choice. You or her. In most A's, the WS will eventually leave you. That is stastics.
He will also realize you are a fantasy just as My WS realized. He thought he was in love, then later said it was not love at all, but pure fantasy and he realized he'd have been miserable had he left me for her.
Yes, he told OW he loved her, was seeking his freedom and would stand in church, hold hands with her and be together forever.
I found this out by reading their emails. Know what? At same time he was writing her this bullsh--, he was making plans with me to buy a new home for our retirement in near future! We traveled to other states looking at homes to share.
We were making financial decisions, doing all the things that no S would do if they were going to divorce! People don't add to their assets if going into court and divorcing! Not unless they're very stupid which my FWH is not.He even took me on vacations prior to flying to see her and shack up for a few days.
So while all his letters to her hurt me deeply, I had to laugh at how he was lying to her as well.
You will never know what truly is going on at home, or how he feels. OW get as many lies as the wife does. Believe it!
What you are is sexual variety from time to time, and a fantasy escape from routine daily life. That's all. Go read Richsgrl4evr. She's the OW who married the jerk and he's now cheating on her. They do not change their behavior for you. You are not more special in his eyes. Sadly, OW always think they are.
Mine talked about me, told so many lies to get her to fawn over him. While I was meeting his needs overboard!
Other things in their emails, she was offering him all types of sexual thrills she felt he was missing. LOL The truth is we were having it all at the same time and he would not be faithful to her. You would blush at the terrible things he said about her sexually after the A was over. HOw bad of condition she was in and how I'm way above her. But? He still slept with her a couple of times. Just had to find out for himself.
Why? for the thrill of something new!
Read all you can on unfaithfulness. You will see the patterns and how OW or OM are used.
The stastics say WH usually admit sex at home with wife is much better and more fulfilling.
You just think you're doing something special for him. But you don't stand a chance because his wife knows him better than you ever will.
Why would you even consider a man who will cheat on his wife? Why? If he'll do it with you, he'll do it to you.
In fact, you may not be the first OW in his life, or even the only one at this time.
Move on and get a real life.
LouLou