More ol' Qfwfq - Marriage Builders® Forums

Not a lot of news over here where my brain hangs out. We're in one of those "lulls" between R discussions where we both get complacent or afraid or something. Maybe all the above.

One piece of potentially big news, though. My W had an IC appointment today. Possibly the first since July. She had emailed her IC about the codependency posts I forwarded to her recently (gadzooks, I can't even remember when that was - a couple months ago?? just a few weeks?), and maybe this is in response to that, but I don't know. I was starting to get worried that I was in for something "bad" afterwards, because she hadn't called me to say "hi", but then just as my paranoia was chewing on my ability to think, she called about the house. No R talk, just dealings with the contractor. But she seemed cheerful overall.

Don't know why I'm even starting a new thread about this...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
♥Qfwfq

[ April 14, 2003, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]

Don't know why I'm even starting a new thread about this...

'Cause all your friends were wondering how you were doing and you sensed it and responded.

SS

SS:

You mean I'm clairvoyant? I'm not. That was a gal in Rick O'Shay comics, wasn't it?

-Qfwfq

Q,
I can't remember, but then I'm almost as old as you are, so................

SS

Q,

How did it come up that she told you about the IC? I'm impressed on two accounts. One she took the action and went after so long. And 2 she told you about it!!

I think this is the greatest. Any willingness on her part to work on "her stuff" if great news for your marriage!!! Worth starting a thread about!! CSue

CSue:

I overheard her telling our D that she had an apt today. Last week or so, she had said to me that our son was having problems at school, and so he has a C there. So, this morning, when she told me she had a C appointment, I had to ask her if it was his C she was going to see, and she said that it was her IC. That was all.

I'd like to think it's good news, too.

-Qfwfq

Well, she didn't say anything about the IC session. I'm okay with that. She was pleasant, though very tired, when we got home (I met her after class to pick up a new bedframe for our son, and we went to dinner after that, so we didn't get home till after 8 or so).

This am she was okay, until she was getting ready to leave. Then, she complained that "nobody does anything around here", even though I had told her to go ahead and go to work and I'd do the dishes before I left.

I had started reading more of Schnarch's "Passionate M" book, about the two-choice dilemma, and picked it up again just after she left. Now I'm starting to wonder if there's a way I can break through this ice and tell her when I feel hurt by remarks like the one above, or even tell her that I HATE them, and that aspect of her personality.

Since I had left Baer's book down in my garage yesterday, I decided to pick up Passionate M again. It's written by a sex therapist, so much of the book is about working on sexual problems in M, and I was getting bogged down in those chapters that focused on that when I last read it last fall (that was not quite the least of our problems at that time). So, this time, I decided to jump straight to section 3 "Observations on the Process". I've read about 2/3 of the "two choice dilemma" section, and it's really fascinating to me.

All these M books get "to me" to some degree, but at the same time all have failed to an extent to make sense to me in another area, particularly jargon.

♠(remember, I'm a quantitative scientist, though JL may beg to differ - JL's kind of scientist would answer the question "What's 2+2?" with "2+2=4.0000", whereas I would anser it with "3<=2+2<=5". Both answers are accurate, but JL's would be more precise!)

For example, I get a lot out of a Barry Long article that SC pointed me to yesterday about the Mask: www.iloveulove.com/yourmask.htm but am a little put off by his definition of "personality" which differs markedly from the dictionary definition. Not that I won't be able to identify with his meaning or even understand and accept his definition. Just that it makes it harder to progress through the rest of the article and internalize it fully.

Same is true of PM, and even Baer, though Baer repeats himself so much and states his concepts so simply, for the most part, that it isn't a problem for long. PM is really hitting home with me right now, though. My W almost fits the "Audrey" character in the two-choice dilemma to a T, though I don't think I fit the "Peter" character all that well (but I do sound like him in many aspects that are pertinent to Schnarch's example).

It's funny, but I'm almost "relieved" to see that Schnarch finally does talk a little about affairs in this section of the book. I had thought he avoided them, and was disappointed because I was so focused on that particular elephant when I read it last (okay, SS, I'm STILL focused on that, but to much less a degree!). I have no idea whether he discusses them in previous sections, though, because I skipped from the "differentiation" stuff to section 3.

It's a sometimes very complex book, with a lot of subtle concepts in it, and there's surprisingly little repetition (so far as I've seen that is), but it looks like it's going to be helpful to me.

I liked this quote about affairs, though I can't figure out why, as it doesn't say anything that we all didn't already know: "Spouses often try to avoid marriage's force choices by usurping their partner's options. A clandestine affair can be understood as an attempt to steal a partner's choice for monogamy. The adulterer wants it both ways: to have sex with someone else and still be married to the spouse. It's like saying, "I want this other person and I want you. If I tell you abou the affair, you might choose to leave. To hell with what you want - to be in a monogamous relationship. I get both choices and you get none. That's because I love you and don't want to give you up!" Granted, the other spouse might not want to have sex at all. But that doesn't remove the dilemma; it just means neither really wants to choose."

There's a lot more about monogamy that I found enlightening, compared to other authors' definitions of it. But I have to shut this puppy down and head off to work now, so I'll have to save it for another time.

♥Qfwfq

[ April 10, 2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]

Q-

I've missed you!

No news is GOOD news I guess....

Glad to see her making appointments. She needs to be ready and it sounds like she is putting her Big toe in the pool...

You've reached something in her and now that you have, it can NEVER go away. She has an awareness that wasn't there before...give her time.

~Q~

PM book is one I occasionally pick up to re-read a chapter .... and I *understand* something I did not "see" the first time. >"ah__ha!"< It is one of those books that can be given a second, third, and more readings with different results each time. I am feeling very "reptilian" lately, and, I plan to re-read that chapter very soon.

Pepper

kily:

Good to hear from you, too! I hope you're right. I've been feeling "detachment" or "differentiation" taking hold of me lately, and I won't pretend to always understand it's "effect" and what that means about our M (such as it is, until we 'fix' it, if we can). But the good news, I guess, is that I'm less bothered by her inactions as I perceive them than I was just a few months ago. She ranks her "work integrity" higher than her personal integrity, I realized this morning as I was reading Schnarch's discussion about monogamy and integrity. She betrayed herself, by having an A, more than she betrayed me. Or "more importantly than that she betrayed me" to put it better.

Pepper:

I feel the same way about most of the books I read, with the exception of the Harley and Baer books - those are pretty straightforward. But Schnarch has a lot more to it, and it grabs me in different ways every time I read it. Barry Long's articles, that SC has posted to our website (though he has one of his own), are like that too.

Regarding my W's generalizations, like the "nobody does anything" remark this morning: I've got to learn how to "call bull$h!+" in a loving way! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> At least, I've got to call it, instead of just allowing remarks like that to ruin my days for all of eternity.

-ol' Qfwfq

Well, I gotta give my W a bit more slack. She just called me, almost in tears, because of a heated discussion at work about schedules and costs. To make a long story short, I realize more now just how much stress she is under at work, so I'm going to give her a little more leeway because of that. I won't quit growing, of course, or trying to help her grow if she asks, but just show a little more empathy.

I guess I did help cheer her up talking to her, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-ol' Qfwfq

Funny you should mention this Q...

Probably 2 weeks ago or less, I too pulled out my copy of PM.

In recovery, hubby read the entire book. I struggled with it and read bits and pieces here and there...very difficult reading then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

This time is entirely different. I am enjoying reading it and wondering where *I* was when I tried to read it before.

I find that there are several select books I go back to and glean new information each time. (Then I stop and wonder if it is just old age and I am forgetting... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Susan

PS...I wish Pepper would explain that "reptilian" feeling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Is that a good or bad thing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Susan:

I remember Schnarch mentioning the reptilian mind in the section I read this morning.

...but I will probably forget by tonight! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' whatsizname. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Oh, ok. I was reading just now maybe I just haven't gotten that far. I'm showing my ignorance here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Back to my book. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Susan

Now where did I put my book...where did I put my reading glasses.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ April 10, 2003, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]

This morning, my W was talking about all the frustrations at work. Her boss is being pressured, and passing that on to her... that kind of thing. At one point she said: "I find myself having to detach from it personally, not take the criticism as an attack... know what I mean?" I said, "sure, I know exactly what you mean" looking her right in the eyes and feeling truly sincere. I could have been sarcastic and said something like "I was just reading about the same thing! Been working on it and being told that I need to detach for MONTHS now, it's bound to sink in!" But I didn't. Sarcasm will get me nowhere. But I think she knows.

This morning, I continued reading PM, about "holding onto yourself", "self-confrontation" and the like. I was amazed, when reading Schnarch's analogy with his backpacking experiences. I did that kind of thing back when I was a teenager! The self-confrontation and holding onto one's self things. I can remember all the things he describes about hiking with someone with a different pace. It's very easy to feel "left behind" or not cared about, and all too easy to resent others when you feel like forging ahead... But it accomplishes nothing but building resentment. And so, I'd focus on empathy and self-confrontation, and we'd invariably have a much better time of it. Not that I was successful all the time, or even most of the time - I wasn't. And it was refreshing to hear that Schnarch isn't always successful even now.

Heck, my W and I even backpacked together for several years, before the kids were born (and when they grew, they never took an interest in it), though for us it was the Grand Canyon (aka Golly Gully), rather than the mountains, for the most part.

What I find amazing about reading this section of PM is how much of it I already knew and applied in my life without realizing it... ...up until I became an "adult", that is. I wonder why that is? Is it familarity and comfort? Is it fear of change? Probably. And that fear builds until it seem insurmountable. And then a crisis occurs to wake us up, and we do all this internal reflection stuff.

Life is a weird place!
-Qfwfq

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Life is a weird place!
<hr /></blockquote>Yes it is Q, but isn't it wonderful?

Isn't is amazing to look back and see how far we have come? I think you are doing so well!

This PM book is great. I read it late into the night last night while hubby was snoring away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I read much of it a couple of years back, but I was in a different place, reading with a totally different filter.

It is about so much more than sex!!! Everyone here at MB should read it!

Susan

All I can say it is so hard to be married now a days!!!

And good luck and hope all goes well. I am not one to give advice to anyone right now.

I agree with Susan about life being wonderful.

My grandmother used to be fond of saying: "It's great to be alive!!!"

This was when I was a teen, and I thought she was crazy. Being a teen is hard.

Now, if I think about it, by golly, she was right! There is lots of bad stuff to cope with, but I am glad to be alive, and there is much good in my life.

Q, I am glad you are reading, and getting something from it. I hope you are helping her cope with the stress by helping her every way you can. When my W is stressed, she likes non sexual affection like foot rubs, and back rubs. I tell her right up front that I want to give NSA so that wondering what I want doesn't add the the stress she is already experiancing. Sometimes I can quiz her about what other things she has to do, and take some of them off her hands for an evening. She is often very, very grateful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I suspect you already do this, but you know how I tend to go on and on sometimes.............

I can tell there are more men in your department than women, you do a lot more work with mars than venus.

Ha, Ha, I know there are reasons, but I like to tease you.

SS

SS:

I agree with Susan that life IS wonderful. Not even just "can be." My W doesn't, however. She's getting better, though.

In the months after D-day, her favorite song, from Concrete Blonde, had this line in it that she "loved"

"Life is beautiful, and terrible, and strange."

At the time, I took even things like that personally. I don't now. And some of it's true. But a lot of the music on the charts these days is so full of pessimism that it makes me hurl. I remember once telling her that "I think you're a pessimistic fatalist" and she agreed that that was probably a reasonable description. That was almost a year ago, and I try not to make judgements like that anymore, even if she agrees with them.

SS, I do things like backrubs and footrubs all the time. But I haven't asked her for NSA before. I think I will. Most of the times snuggling while watching the lobotomy box have been comfy these days. Usually, she falls asleep pretty quickly. It's hard to keep her awake after about 8:30, and she's probably been averaging something like 9 or 10 hours a night of sleep.

My biggest problem, like with SF lately, is that even if I ask her whether she's interested in it or not, I don't get an answer. Nothing. Or if I initiate, EVEN if she becomes interested, I can only tell because she doesn't stop me. So, I'm currently not all that interested, but I will make sure that I don't appear to be witholding from her viewpoint either.

In spite of that, we're getting along okay, and I like that. Doing stuff with the house is always rewarding. Going to swap meets is fun, too. Simple stuff.

-Qfwfq

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Going to swap meets is fun, too <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Swap meets??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pray tell, what are swap meets?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Suz

Susan:

Holy Moly, Mother of Cripes! Where do you LIVE?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Swap meets are like parkinglot-size garage sales. MOST of our furniture is antiques we bought at swap meets. I even found a 6" f/10 Newtonian tube assembly for 20 bucks at one a few months ago!

Swap meets are cool. My W is the bigger fan, though. I like them because I get to walk around with her on a nice day, holding her hand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

-Qfwfq

Miss'ippi... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I have lots of antiques and buy all my antiques at the antique store.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I even found a 6" f/10 Newtonian tube assembly for 20 bucks at one a few months ago!
<hr /></blockquote>And what is THAT??? a Newtonian tube??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Suz

Susan, Susan...you should know better than to ask Q for an explanation like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Next thing you know, he's telling you that it's a widget to measure the electromagnetic spectrum deviation at 25 megaparsecs from 45 degrees north off of the refraction occuring on inter-stellar light when it bounces off of....you get my drift! ROTFLOL!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Oh, and "swap meets" is the nice way of saying Flea Markets! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ April 11, 2003, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Ok, glad to get that question answered. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sounds much like something I need...LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm heading out of town (3 1/2 hrs.) to visit my mother now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm taking my laptop and will be checking in. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I feel sure and hope that Pepper did not take hers. She badly needs this time of rest! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Suz <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ April 11, 2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]

Susan:

It's a telescope. I'm a "TN"

...Telescope Nut!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
-Qfwfq

SC:

Gadzooks! You beat me to it! I posted my "short answer" bout the same time you posted. I coulda said so much more!!!

Susan. Yeah, she probably does need a break, but these days, don't you think Weddings should have wireless internet access for the attendees? After all, what better time to "save a M" with MB than AT THE WEDDING! Maybe they could post the Forum website during the vows!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-Qfwfq

Swap Meets sounds like a nice way of saying.............. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, nevermind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Susan

...A??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Why would I want to go to a market KNOWN to have fleas!?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-Qfwfq

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> After all, what better time to "save a M" with MB than AT THE WEDDING! Maybe they could post the Forum website during the vows!!!
<hr /></blockquote>Exactly! Before the ceremony...it should be required reading...MB website.

[ April 11, 2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]

Susan,
What did you think a swap meet was? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Qfwfq:
Ask for NSA, it helps you feel loved.
Tell her up front you are givng NSA so she can relax and enjoy it withoug wondering where it is going.

In the beginning, my W woldn't let me give back rubs because she thought it was intended as a precurser to sex. It was only after I explained that it was not going further, that I didn't have any other motive, that she began to trust me touching her. I had to be very plain and up front about it for it to work.

I can see why you feel rejected, not even a straight out "no." I didn't realize.

SS

Later edit,
Am I slow today, or what??

[ April 14, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

SS:

Q: Am I slow today, or what??

A: What!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for the suggestions, though. I'm going to try that.

-QFwfq

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Susan,
What did you think a swapy meet was? <hr /></blockquote>Well, I deducted that it was where you *met* to *swap*.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

*swap* what.... I didn't know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Go to any good swap meets this weekend Q?

Susan

Susan:

Nope. I jacked up a 2-story house yesterday!

It must not have fallen on me, because I still have most of my faculties about me. (such as they are) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-Qfwfq

So,
Did Q have a nice weekend?
I am speaking mostly of your relationship with W.

Jacked up a two story house. Jacked up a two story house. Jacked up a two story house. I'm stuck and I can't evem, make a good joke. Heck, I can't even make a bad one.

I'll be back.
(Just thought I'd warn you.)

SS

SS:

Well alrighty then!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

No big news to report, just that I'm really finding myself absolutely absorbed by Passionate Marrige these days!

Since I've decided to back off the pressure (such as it was, that is) on my W to have SF, I've noticed some positives. I don't want her to feel pressure at all, and I also want to "see" if she wants to initiate sometimes. I've been showing NSA (non-sexual affection), and it's SLOWLY showing positive results. The main reason for doing it is to enable me to distinguish between her wanting "more" from her feeling like she's simply giving in to my desires, or her perception of them. I didn't feel "successful" demonstrating that I don't separate SF from loving her, so I'm just going to love her for however long it may take.

The result is that, after the "makeup affection" (not just sex, but handholding and snuggling, or talking) ALWAYS fell off in frequency after a serious R talk/argument (the last of which was on my birthday), the past few days, my W has actually "initiated" hand holding or snuggling again on a couple of occasions. No big deals, and not "intense" by any means. But somewhat reminiscent of the makeup stuff but without the fight as the impetus.

I think she's starting to see that I'm "detaching" or "differentiating" (Schnarch) better with time. I'm happier (but I won't pretend to be happy all the time), and the increase in my happiness is affecting her thinking some.

On the other hand, though she's having a better time over all, and it was a good weekend, this morning, as we went to pick up our tax forms, she got a call on her cell about her work crew. It's pouring out there today, and so they're not going to be able to work this week. She said she'd pass the news on to the office, but couldn't find the phone number after she got off the phone. I made some suggestions about checking her recent calls list on the phone, or waiting until we got back to the house (like a half hour later) but she got angry (not at me personally, I don't think). All over not having a phone number for another 30 minutes????????????????

This is a lot like the incident where she snapped at our D for her computer case dumping on the floor a week or 2 ago (because she'd left it unzipped). I actually thought that was funny in a way. But you'd think it was the end of the world, the way she reacted to it.

Oh well. I feel the need to "call bull$hit" on occasion when she gets angry about little things like that, and feel it's a responsibility of mine to do so, perhaps so she'll have something to talk to her IC about when she sees her again. That would be "constructive bull$hit calling" by the way. I don't even want to be slightly sarcastic to her about it like this morning.

The other thing is that this isn't phasing me so much anymore either. I actually feel good about that, because it shows I'm not dependent so much on how she feels - that's her responsibility, ultimately. It has me feeling funny at the same time, because as Schnarch says, if one partner is willing to go into the "growth circle" while the other won't leave the "comfort circle" it is possible to grow apart and end up DV'd. I don't want to find myself at a point where we're so far apart in our "differentiation" that I don't care when the DV option comes to a head, if that happens (it seems to in Schnarch's experience sometimes).

But the growth stuff is SO INTERESTING. I read in the evenings after we've turned off the Lobotomy Box and my W is starting to go to sleep. So she knows I'm reading a lot more now. I won't mind showing her what I'm reading, or even letting her read it too. But she hasn't said anything yet.

There! Was that more informative than "jacking up the house?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-Qfwfq

Yes, much more informative.

I have a Passionate Marriage question. I suppose I should start my own thread. And I might. But, I'll start here since you are reading too.

I read this book on my trip to and from my mother's this passed weekend (7 hrs. round trip)

Page 339...Don't identify with your feelings.

I'm not sure I understand that small portion. Can you explain what it means to you?

Thanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Susan

Susan:

Well, I'll have to 2ble check when I get home, but I remember reading this recently, too.

I think he means, don't let your feelings define who you are.

? Make sense?

-Qfwfq

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think he means, don't let your feelings define who you are. <hr /></blockquote>yes, it makes sense...but if I think on it long or try to make it too deep, it gets confusing.

The book is EXCELLENT.

It is probably just me...and the 2+ years of therapy where the counselor constantly said "pay attention to your feelings"....

confused me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Susan

Susan:

Yeah. But don't quote me. I get confused a lot by all this "personal stuff"! Probably why I got into this mess in the first place. I was one of those "fairy tale" types. Figured that the hard work was "done" 27 years ago. Boy, what a bumbleheaded knucklefoot I was! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

-ol' Qfwfq

Q:

Sounds like you are doing.....reasonably well today. As I have said before ( at least I think I have,) it took a long time for us even though *both* of us were supposed to be working on things together. The NSA was an important part of that. It took months of NSA for her to begin to understand that I could be nice to her and not ask for SF. Kind of a "I can finally see that you still love me even when you don't get SF" deal. I wonder if I had read the books years ago if I could have prevented it from getting that bad. Oh well, I had no reason to read them at that point in time. Or at least, I knew no reason, and that's about the same as a motivator.

Since you call it the Lobotomy box, I get the feeling you don't watch it much?

SS

sS:

it's weird. I used to watch the news a lot... until the Clinton/Lewinski nonsense dominated the news. I didn't know that my W was having an A at the time.

I used to watch some of the movie channels. I never watched commercial TV, because the commercials are just too distracting. I liked Farscape, on the "Skiffy" channel, but that's been canceled, so I'll probably not watch that channel anymore either. The only things I'll watch with commercials anymore are the home improvement shows. But even they can be a bit annoying.

Been watching too much of the war news lately. Am cutting back on that so I can read more when I'm home. Stuff like that.

-Qfwfq

I agree with your name for it, I watch about 2 hours a month. Mostly when the kids talk me into watching something with them.

Other than that, I work in the garden, spend time with my W, play with the kids and read. Lots of reading.

And work, did I mention work. I do that sometimes.

SS

Ahem, meaning no disrespect to Peppers H, of course.

[ April 14, 2003, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

Good plan on the NSA!! My bet is it will lead to positive results in the bedroom. It makes a woman feel secure and loved, not just like a sexual outlet.

I'd do anything for more NSA. Heck, I would've done anything for more NSA prior to my A last spring.

I feel like I'm just a sex object when any and every hug leads to my H groping me sexually.

Jen

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Page 339...Don't identify with your feelings. <hr /></blockquote>I believe I can shed some light on this...maybe?

Q, you'll recall our conversations about the Emotional Self vs. the Real Self, right?

I believe Schnarch here is referring to that exactly when he says "...the feelings we defend usually aren't the ones we want."

When we identify ourselves and base our perception of who we are on our feelings, we tend to be ruled by them, and many of these feelings are ego-driven, and make no sense. Things such as being a victim, blaming others for our problems, etc.

When we learn to separate those ego-driven feelings from our real feelings, then we can become more honest and less victims, we can take more responsibility for our own failings rather than blame othersa for them, etc.

I firmly believe in this, as I've learned to see it in myself. One can "observe" oneself, see the anger rising when an event occurs, we can hear the words that we say in response, and we can then more coldly, with detachment, analyze what happened. Most of the time we'll find this was unjustified and was a purely defensive or attacking posture, entirely not necessary or "real", an ego-driven reaction not related to the person or event that occured, but a learned reaction based on our interpretation of that event, based on past history, not necessarily on the current occurence.
When we see this, and we continue to do it as much as we can, become present, we will soon see that there is a clear distinction between this "self" that reacts and attacks, and our "real" self...the observer, the one who can less emotionally view the event and logically reach conclusions about it. THAT is our real self, not the one who lashed out in anger or frustration...that one is a product of our ego.

I believe this is what Schnarch means...don't identify with those feelings that are the product of your ego, identify rather with the "real" feelings...those that are reasoned and true...that come from your real self. Those are the important ones. And more importantly, don't believe that "who you are" is those emotions arising from ego; recognize that there is another more real, more honest "self" in there and identify "who you are" with that one.

SC:

Cool! I was going to look that up! But you did it for me!

I think you're analysis is right on. Thanks a herd!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Qfwfq

Thanks you two...excellent explaination.

You made it sound so clear and simple. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Susan

[ April 15, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Susan ]

Perhaps this merits some expansion. This s part of a post I wrote somewhere else, but it's my view of this very theme:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />...“who am I?”. Am I the “thinker”? that being which is constantly generating a stream of thoughts in our mind? That being which is so tied to the physical body; its feelings, emotions, pain? That being which experiences touch, sound, smells, and all our emotional reactions and physical acts?
If so, how is it that we can “observe” that being? Because we can, right? We can observe that being and see how “it” reacted to something, how the emotion that was brought on by a given experience came, what it “caused” that being to do, say or feel, and how the emotion subsided or mutated into something else. We can observe it and see how it screamed or jumped, or did something. Many times something we later regret. Something that says “why in the world did I do/say/think that!?”. Well…so if we can observe that being, who is doing the observing? It can’t be the same being, can it?....I believe “the observer” is our soul, our “real” being, the one we REALLY are. But that one is not always present; that one is more ethereal, less tangible, less present in our daily activities. I think this is because that being is NOT tied to our physical body. That being, who we really are, is part of a larger whole, that community of united souls that is part of the universe, part of all we see, feel, touch, and all that we do not see, feel, or touch. It is outside of our physical body, so it is not always present where our body is, certainly not always present in our conscious mind.
<hr /></blockquote>

Uh, Oh! Did I get a little TOO weird there? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I don't think so, SC. Just everyone got drawn away about the BBQ!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Qfwfq

Sounds VERY Eastern Philosohically speaking -

I think therefore I am capable of getting back to being one with the universe. I have MUCH respect for DEEP thinkers....

More about Schnarch and "feelings":

""Many people assume we are our feelings. It sounds validating and accepting of feelings, but it creates other problems: If you identify with your feelings - that is, if you get your identity from your feelings - then you cann't afford to have them change. You'll feel like you won't know who you are. When you have a stable sense of self, your feelings can come and go like the weather. I've seen people who have an identity as a "hot head" start to get angry when they encounter a novel situation even though they're not really mad. Getting angry reinforces their identity and organizes whatever is unfamiliar into familiar patterns."

-Schnarch, p. 60.

-ol' Qfwfq

To your post on the prior page Space, yes- getting philosophical... I liked it. I loved philosopy and that was one thing I was so drawn to about my current WH,... if anyone can believe it... he was at one time quite deep... we read books together, and had many deeper level conversations... he was attracted to my intelligence first.. more later. Me too.

Anyway, I am glad you ananlyzed this theory, thanks to Q and the others here too...

I feel a little better being reminded that I am not the emotions I feel... If I 'feel' depressed, down, angry, sad, low, mad, etc. - it doesn't mean I am. Who I am is different than all of that...thanks for the reminder, b/c WS at times would have me be- angy and depressed, as a definition of me....WHATEVER? FOg is blaming me.... I know, I know...

Sorry to ramble.. I have been on the rollercoaster these past few days and I am having a lot of trouble knowing how to respond to wh when I do talk to him, which should be later today b/c the kids will be with him....or are suppossed to be for friday - sunday.. ugh. Anyway have to have lunch with parents today and I was only in the mood for a short lunch thing, and now they have called to inform me they have heated their pool so we can all swim... woohoo... my kids may like it, but I am so NOT in the mood for family...

Sorry for the digressions.

Thanks, H

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Qfwfq:
More about Schnarch and "feelings":

""Many people assume we are our feelings. It sounds validating and accepting of feelings, but it creates other problems: If you identify with your feelings - that is, if you get your identity from your feelings - then you cann't afford to have them change. You'll feel like you won't know who you are. When you have a stable sense of self, your feelings can come and go like the weather. I've seen people who have an identity as a "hot head" start to get angry when they encounter a novel situation even though they're not really mad. Getting angry reinforces their identity and organizes whatever is unfamiliar into familiar patterns."

-Schnarch, p. 60.

-ol' Qfwfq<hr /></blockquote>This is excellent. A very clear way of putting it, and the truth, through and through. Thanks Q!

I would say "whoops" that is what I get for skipping around, but I actually read p. 60. I have a bookmark on p.151 and over on p.347 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There is so much information in this book, it is hard to absorb it all at once.

Thanks Q!

XOXO
Suz

Susan:

Hey, there you are! Now all we need is for Pepper to come back!

Hope your time away was good!
-ol' Qfwfq

I'm here, I never really left...just got a bit busy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Now all we need is for Pepper to come back <hr /></blockquote>Her work/job is probably saying the same thing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I think Pep is dealing with a lot and probably not at a computer lately.

Hopefully she will be back soon. I hope she didn't break her MB addiction in all this time away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

We luv you Pep!

Suz

[ April 18, 2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]

From: Schnarch, p. 60.
I won't quote it again, as I worry how many 1's and 0's the MB server can hold.

It is interresting to see this discussed.

All of us have to learn to let go of these conterproductive feelings and the actions that come from them if we want to improve ourselves.

This more or less shows what Q has done as he finds better ways to react to his W's troubles. She hasn't learned it yet, so she isn't growing as fast.

My expernance is that it is actually fun once you learn you can do it. I still shock my W some days. If she makes a really bad blunder she *still* expects me to get angry. When I comfort her and help her instead I can sometimes see the wonder in her face. I know she is asking, " where has my old H gone?"

It is fun to know I can change what I used to think was *me*. Self improvement is fun! Especially because it results in a much better relationship with my W.

SS

SS:

You are so right! Yesterday, after my W and D got home from work, she was tired as usual. My D made dinner, and my W made strawberry shortcake for dessert (Yum!). No big things for the evening, just watching the Lobotomy Box. But I noticed that she was actually a bit cheerful last night. Probably the first time I can remember feeling this from her in years. Not like laughing at jokes on the tube or anything like that. Just an observation, a feeling. It was nice. She's also becoming incrementally more affectionate (NSA, that is) than in the past (very slight, but with this new "observer's" viewpoint, I can SEE it better). She fell asleep holding my hand.

But then, she woke up in the middle of the night crying from a nightmare about the house. She told me about it, and it was pretty bad. I have nightmares like that some, too. But most of mine were about RM or something else related to her A. I even had one of those for the first time in a while just 2 nights ago. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But today is another day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> With more "opportunities!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

♥Qfwfq

Q:
What do you tell her, or do for her when she has these dreams, or has a bad experiance with the contractor and is in tears?

How does she react to the comfort you extend?

SS

SS:

Well... a lot, I guess. Like this morning, I listened and held her, and offered her support. I empathize with her verbally. I understand what she's going through, because I am too. When it's dealing with the contractors, we talk at length about what we feel and what we want them to do, including how we want to finish the work ourselves a lot of the time!

I try not to let the conversation get too negative, though, and she doesn't either. There are times when we come to the contractor's defense even. We seem to be pretty much on the same page as far as the house is concerned.

That help?
-Qfwfq

That help

Yes. I am having a hard time understanding why she can take your help, needs it actually, and then sometimes when you ask her questions she won't even answer you, or talk to you about it. I think her *experiance* hurt her far more than she can admit. On top of that, sometimes she is even hostile.

It seems that she values your help so much - I just can't see why she has this problem with ILY and calling you H. I suspect she doesn't seek help from her business associates in tears. She trusts you enough to do that though, and she expects to get the help and comfort that she needs.

Have you had any more success at drawing her out and getting her to talk, or are you just leaving that alone for now?

SS

SS:

I'm trying to draw her out, but slowly. So far, little is happening, except the NSA I mentioned above. But that may be it for now.

I've got lots of hypotheses as to why she plays her cards so close to her chest. Don't have a clue whether any are reasonable or not, and probably should'nt put too much stock in the (they are, after all, just assumptions).

But I think it's entirely possible that she and RM made some sort of "promises" to each other over the years. I remember Pepper suggesting something like this a while back, on someone else's thread perhaps. One, I'm aware of and I've talked to her about, was made on my birthday last year.

Another thing is that she's known RM for probably going on 15 years. I remember her asking ME what I thought about his PhD topic, like his committee was questioning the validity of his approach. And this reminded me of a comment that, again I think it was Pepper made, that my W felt like she was "rescuing" RM, or at least hand-holding him through an agreeably difficult department.

...but I want to stop dwelling on him. It just gets me down to think that their friendship may still be important to them, which would make our recovery difficult, though not impossible. Difficult, because I just don't think I'd want to stay M'd because of the depth and duration of the betrayal, and because if they worked together again, there'd be plenty of times when they'd be working by themselves for days or weeks at a time. I won't go through that. I'd rather DV.

-Qfwfq

Hey all!

I realize it's already the weekend for many of you, and it's Easter weekend to boot, so I wanted to post one more time to let you all know I'm more positive than negative right now. Don't want that last post to give the wrong impression.

"Small steps, Sparks. Small steps." -Contact

-Qfwfq

Yeah! What Q said about the weekend.

OK, I won't go there either today, and by Monday I will have forgotten. See ya.
SS

I will say one more thing.

One of those times when she won't answer, try something like this:

"I know I don't know everything - perhaps not even eveything I should know to help you but........ I am trying to help.
Please talk to me."

You know, get that wistful look, the one that she fell for about 28years ago.

SS

SS:

I will try something like that!

Well, I'm out the door!

-Qfwfq <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />