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The issue with our son is not going away. I need to do something about it. Your suggestions would be welcomed.

My H is being honest in saying that he is not feeling like a man in the house given the lack of respect that he is receiving from our son. Son has really continued to test the limits. He has refused to comply with house rules. Nothing major but it is obnoxious for him to leave lights on, play TV loudly while we are trying to sleep, etc.

There is competition going on between son and husband. Of course, they are not even supposed to be on the same level. So you see that I have allowed things to get way out of place in the household. Son wants to assert himself as king. H is supposed to be king of the castle. Son's argument is that his father has been gone for several months and has not contacted him and therefore does not deserve the honor of head of household. Of course, that is not a decision that he is supposed to make.

I hope you get the picture. I have no family. Husband and son have placed me in the middle, wanting me to choose. Of course, H is supposed to win, supposed to be number 1. However, he is insisting that what I need to do is to "cut off my son's hand for stealing" (analogy used by Steve H.). He says that I am not treating him as "man of the house" because I have "not kicked son off of the football team". Husband says that he will "never have anything else to do with son". Again this is an extreme reaction. Son did embarass my "proud" husband in front of a neighbor friend, saying he's been gone for months.
Also, son is refusing to talk to husband.

Bottom line, I need to have some effect in bringing my son in line. I don't want to go to the extreme that my H desires. However, I do need to make a statement that H is no. 1 and man of the house. Putting son off of the team will cause him to be hated by his peers because he is a star that they depend on and will cause him to lose out on college scholarships as he is a senior being recruited. H says that he doesn't care! I don't believe that he doesn't care but that he wants to feel better about himself.

I need to go and will post more later.

Your advice would be greatly appreciated.

[ September 29, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Sorry for my bluntness...but this sounds like a conflict between your Son and your Husband.

Your Husband has put you in the middle because he can't bear to hear the words he deserves to hear (you deserted us, and you deserted me).

I think it's time they work it out.

Husband may say and do some rash things, you may suggest that no sweeping decisions are made without everyone being in agreement. Does the POJA apply to families too?

I don't know -- it seems to me that your son has valid feelings that aren't being acknowledged. Everyone wants to run over them in pursuit of their own agenda.

You wanted H back, H finally wanted to come back -- but what about him? He's a member of the family too, although a junior member, which is frustrating for kids when there is a big-time decision to make and they don't even get a say, let alone a vote.

As someone said, this is between H and S, and it seems they want to use you to avoid negotiating with each other. So they are using you.

IMVHO, I don't thing this should be decided by a priori rights -- i.e., H always trumps S. After all, how would you feel if your boss acted like a Nazi and refused restitution or compensation, saying "he was the boss."

Obviously this needs a third party, and it isn't going to be you. Shouldn't be. A good counselor -- I would think not one trying to talk about everyone's "feelings" as helping the two parties negotiate a settlement.

And if football is how son gets his self-esteem, peer approval, and takes out his aggressions -- taking that from him feels really counterproductive. Especially while family is facing its own recovery mess.

Where would he have to turn to? Drugs???

Mim,
I'd go with family counseling, pronto.
Why should son be punished with being kicked off team, his thought is probably, when does Dad get punished?

Mimi, obviously your son is very angry. And he is entitled to that anger, but must find a way to disperse it constructively.
I do not believe your son should pay the price by losing his football activity. He needs this for his self esteem as well as his scholarship.
It's time your H and he sought counseling together! And apart! A good counselor could help them both by seeing them one on one and together when appropriate.
If you follow H's advice in stripping away more of Son's life, it will only bring more harm in my opinion. After all, doesn't the whole family usually pay for the A? I am a firm believer that the one who wrecked everyones emotions, self esteem and secure feelings should be the one to suffer most of it! H created this riff between himself and son, now he can't expect to just demand respect overnight. He has to earn it back!
Yes, I understand H has to have the head of household respect, but he has not earned it yet.
He left you with your son to muddle along on your own while he dallied! Son had to deal with much of his feelings on his own also.
You see now, the A was not just between you and H. It took a great toll on the whole family.
And I think it's time your H got into some anger management as well if he's ready to just strip son of all his life interest and what has probably been a real support for son through all this. Sports allows son to expend energy in a positive way.
Of course, son has to sit with you both and be told that you are trying hard to salvage your marriage and once again be the family you were.
But son needs his own outlet for venting and counseling is the first place to start.
He's acting out his anger in the only way he knows how!
I've read enough of your post over the months to understand your H must have control. He doesn't want anyone making decisions for him. He had to be the one to decide when, where and how he would end his A. When he would and wouldn't be available for son, etc.
I think it's time your H and son sought that much needed counseling and time for your H to realize he can't just walk back in like nothing ever happened and take his rightful place on demand!
Otherwise, I see your H pushing his son away forever. What he suggest is punishment to add insult to injury!
You aren't just rebuilding a marriage, you're rebuilding a family!
Son needs to feel safe to vent, and express his feelings just like anyone else.
We had the same thing in our home when H came home on Dday. Our son is older than yours, but he was mad enough to kill!
He stated quite emphatically he held no respect anymore for father. And he also told him the lack of morals in H's family stops with him(son).
Now he talks with me that he sees father trying hard to be different. And they do have a renewed relationship. But I know son still checks and doesn't trust just off hand.
H had lied to me and son, when ask specific ? about his trips. That hurt and angered son most of all, to be lied to!
Plus serious health problems where we had not contact info for all the time H was gone. That made son feel H didn't care if one of us died. Son is diabetic and came so close to death once it still is a nightmare to think on. I had a heart attack suddenly and could have died. Then H leaves us and tells us he is going off to be by himself and wants none of us to know how to bug him? then we find out it's his little slut he's more interested in and fun than his family who might need him?
Sorry, but I have to feel more compassion for your son right now than your H.
While you need to regain control in your home, in the order it's given by God to be,(God first, spouse, then children), it isn't going to just happen.
I hope they will both agree to counseling to understand each other and rebuild their relationship again.
If you need to cut off a hand for stealing, start with H!
While your son may not have voiced it, he felt a great weight and responsibility as the man of the house left worrying over his mother!
Way too much for a young man to have to deal with.
Son embarrassed "Proud" H? Son told the truth. Should he have lied? Do neighbors not realize and know the truth already?
I'm sure they saw you moving in minus H for while.
I know many may not agree with me. But I've seen the damage My H caused to our son and family. My daughter now has cut me out of her life, and also my precious grandchildren because she feels H hurt me too much and lied too many times. She wanted us to divorce, and we chose to rebuild.
I have lost way precious treasures due to H's lies and infidelity. But I cannot force her to do as I wish. It's her decision and she has no respect or love for stepfather now.
If you think this is just between you and H, you are far from right.
Praying that time, counseling and your H setting aside some of his pride will bring about the family you once had.
God bless, LouLou

Recovery reality bites!

H did a bad thing (reality) and lost his son's respect (reality).

Your job is NOT to "fix" this .... NO WAY .... resist fixing this. This problem does not belong to you.

Tell your husband you trust that both H and S will be able to work this through without female interference. Then, insist that you must butt out.

I strongly urge the 2 of them to go to a family therapist.

You son should NOT learn that deserting the family (to go off with slutty OW) deserves respect.

Your son needs a safe place to learn how to deal with his ambiguity of feelings for his father.

Your husband is feeling consequences .... and they bite. I told you, he's not going to like looking in the mirror for a long time. This is just the beginning. Don't protect your H. He earned this.

Pep

Dear Mimi,

I'm happy for you that your H is trying towork out your marriage problems and has moved back home. However, I'm here to weigh in on the side of your son. I see no point to being the Devil's Advocate, I am in agreement with the others here.

Your H set a bad example by being unfaithful to his family. He vowed to love, honor, and cherish you, forsaking all others. This meant he would love, honor cherish, support, and be faithful to the family - your children.

Your H broke his vows, abandoned both of you, and you decided to give him another chance, to work to restore your marriage.

Consequence of abandoning his son, who is nearly an adult, is that he offended the young man's values. He's not a young child nor an appendage of you. He has NOT agreed to reconcile. While he's living under your roof he's forced to tolerate the presence of the man who, of his own free will, abandoned him and his mother, who dealt with major crises on their own, fended for themselves.

He rejects the model of manhood that your H presents. He does not respect or trust his father. He's old enough to understand the long term effects of infidelity, he's not going to be intimidated by an older adult male - physically, he's in pretty good shape himself, mentally, he's nearly ready for college, emotionally, he's devastated.

Your H hurt two of you. You want to try again with your marriage. Your S is big enough and old enough to resist bullying by your H.

It would be flat out wrong, evil, wicked, to punish your son by not allowing him to play football. He needs it like food or oxygen.

You and your H are going to have to suck it up and live with it. If you son forgives his dad, it will be an act of charity, not an entitlement.

Don't allow further abuse of this boy by his father. If your son is lucky enough to have friends whose family is willing to let him live with them so he can finish high school, you owe it to the boy to help. (I know you didn't mention such people, but I hope he does have such a friend.) And if that should happen, you owe him all the financial support he needs while he works to get a football scholarship and succeed in school.

By the way, I'm no kid. I have a 14 year old son, a high schooler. So this isn't the perspective of one of your son's peers.

Good luck, and like the others said, don't let your H put you in the middle.

[ September 16, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Bellevue ]

I talked to Steve H. about this on Fri. and he recommended that I work on the negotiation which has not worked. It has not worked because right now I am the only one that seems to want them to have a R. They do not want to work on anything with each other. Both want the other one to go away and want me for themselves. This is getting clearer to me as I type.

Both refuse to go to therapy. They feel they do not need help on the issue of each other.

Both in the meantime are not being loving to me.

Well, I'm fine with each one of them when alone. However, I'm left without a family.

Of course I'm not going to take him off the football team. I've made that clear. H says he's just going to "wait it out" until son goes to college. There's nowhere for son to move. He doesn't want to leave home. His goal is to be obnoxious enough to get his F unhappy enough to leave.

PS ....

I find your H's lack of sensitivity and understanding .... and, his apparent LACK of concern for his son's hurting heart ..... ALARMING!!!!!

Your H is still in a major "taker" mode.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Pep:

Steve H. refers to my H as being a PROUD man and not a CARING man. He says that is the way my H is. I know it is alarming how he is regarding son. It is giving me second thoughts about him. I have told him that I can't believe that he really feels this way. Steve says that it is frustration over not being able to get rid of his pain. H acknowledges pain and emptiness that he is feeling right now but has no compassion for his son's feelings. He wants me to have feelings of compassion for him but he does not have feelings for anyone else.

What do you think is going on?

He had this issue with OW. He says that she also would not demand respect of him by her daughter. He insists that he has no plans of going back to her. The story behind this is that her daughter is 13. At least in my H's viewpoint, my son is leaving in less than a year. My H wants a woman all to himself. He probably should have never had children. I have failed to mention that my H is estranged from his parents. This happened just prior to the beginning of his A. My H's mother has not contacted him in about 4 to 5 years and this remains heavy on his heart. It's like he wants his children to suffer like he is suffering. OW medicated regarding this when he was able to have her undivided attention but he found that he also had to share her. The more I think of it my H really has some deep psychological issues. It's supposed to be in sickness and in health. I'm supposed to be here for him in this, right?

I'm struggling here, guys. A lot is becoming clearer to me.

[ September 16, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Do you want your feelings or your compassion for others directed by someone else?

Pep,

Explain more about what you are saying. No I won't allow him to control my feelings of compassion. In fact, I did not use the adjective ALARMING but I did express my dissatisfaction over his disregard for his son's feelings. Why do I keep wanting to type MY SON?

I added more to my post previous to yours.

[ September 16, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

When you discussed your concern over your H's disregard for S's feelings .... what did your H say in response?

What sort of remourse has your H shown YOU? What exact words did he say?

I was just feeling you out Mimi, trying to see how you were leaning on this issue.

PS .... I am trying to sort through my own emotional response to your H's actions, I am trying to disregard MY personal issues while I try to discuss your problem. Know what I mean? It takes me awhile to be able to separate my baggage from your situation. So, I take a little while.

H has expressed sincere remorse about what he has done TO ME. He has been very clear about coming home TO ME.

He has said that he is SORRY. He has said that he wants to MAKE IT UP TO ME. My sons have acknowledged this, too, Pep. My H is not good about expressing his compassion or feelings in words. He TAKES ACTION , like yesterday, it was important to him to dispose of the SECRET bank account. Today he wanted to change banks because that was the bank where he HID THINGS. He can show what he cannot say. He thought he was doing a big thing by going to my sons' football games. This was not openly appreciated by my son. He helped the older son with his car claim and in getting his car fixed, stuff like that.

I really feel that he is remorseful. I can openly tell him how hurt I am about the A and he shows remorse on his face. He is not a man of words, Pep. In fact, after talking about my pain last night, he had a different response about our son today. He is not pressing the football thing. Today he is saying that he will "wait him out" but is continuing to express "pain over not feeling like a man in his house". He says it makes him feel bad enough to shoot himself if he had a gun. That sounds like real pain to me. But he refuses to go to counseling. YUK!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mimi1254:
[QB]Pep:

Steve H. refers to my H as being a PROUD
"He had this issue with OW. He says that she also would not demand respect of him by her daughter. He insists that he has no plans of going back to her. The story behind this is that her daughter is 13. At least in my H's viewpoint, my son is leaving in less than a year."

Again, I'm taking the side of the child. The OW's 13 yr old D. Of course she didn't respect him. She was disgusted and affronted that a married man abandoned his family and was shacking up with her mother.

Did he leave the OW and come home to you because of the 13 year old's disrespect and the OW's inability to curb the child's attitude?

Or did he come home because he was repentant and wanted to repair his marriage?

"The more I think of it my H really has some deep psychological issues. It's supposed to be in sickness and in health. I'm supposed to be here for him in this, right? "

So, how can I support you? Do you want support to continue working on your marriage? Is the Sickness and Health thing a rationalization because you still want to be married?

Or are you mentioning Sickness and Health because you're in a moral quandary and want to do the moral thing? (In which case, I believe that infidelity is a matter of choice and not of mental illness. And also, if he's "sick", all the more reason to protect your son from his mental illness.)

Not every marriage SHOULD be reconciled.

You're struggling - that's growth. I am too. I wrestle with the same issues.

Mimi....

Was going to counseling one of your recovery requirements?

Will your H do counseling with Steve?

Good questions, Bellevue. I appreciate your POV.

I'm not sure who my H is anymore.

80% of the time he is the man I thought he was. Then he turns into this other person that I cannot accept. I don't know where this other person came from. Is this part of his withdrawal from the A? Or this really him? I know no one can answer these questions for me. It is confusing.

The good thing is that in the past I would have accepted anything about him just to have him back. That's the old codependent me. Now I am clearer about who I am and what I will and will not tolerate.

It is true, though, that I have not demanded respect from my children and I have overindulged them. That, however, is no excuse for my H to have an A.

Mimi,
IMVHO There is an order in a families structure.
- The husband is head or King (with some reservations to the queens authority)
- The wife is queen and weilds considerable authority.
- The kids are princes and princesses and should be respected but not given control but just groomed for it when they grow up and have their own households.

Seems to me that while the king is away, the queen should assume the position of head of the household. I think your son is not the head in his fathers absence, but you are. (It has worked in England for centuries)

You husband may not completely agree, but try to stress the importance of you being in control, instead of children, to your husband and hope that he understands the position you find yourself in.

I would give your son permission to play football, if that is what you think is right and then inform his father that while he is away, and being the only parent in the house, that it is your call and hopefully he understands, agrees and backs your decision in order to keep the respect of the kids. After all it is important that you do not appear powerless to your son. Just my 2 cents. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

H had agreed to do counseling with Steve during one of our talks prior to reconciliation. I have not asked him about doing counseling with Steve again. I did ask him about going to the MB Weekend and he said NO last night.

Steve thinks, though, that he is presently not in LEARNING/STUDENT MODE. I guess he is not ready to face his demons.

He just called me and asked me how I am doing. I said "Just hanging in there". He said "What's wrong?", sounding concerned as if he does not have a clue that I would be struggling today. You see what I say about emotional insensitivity.

Bellevue:
On second thought, he does act as if he is in love with me again 80% of the time. I feel that he sincerely came back to be with ME. I don't get the sense that he cares about OW anymore and being the PROUD man is real EMBARASSED right now about the A.

OW's 13-year-old was right not to defer to your H or respect him. He was a temporary feature in her life, and he has ditched her and her mom by going back to you. Her gut feelings were right.

Perhaps your son feels the same.

In any case, maybe you need some counseling to keep yourself OUT of this situation. Especially since the other parties refuse to come to the negotiating table. Apparently, your H has a history of no compromise.

The idea of your son going to someone else's home sounds superficially okay, but in its implications appalling. Your SON should lose HIS home because your philandering H wants back in?

This is a tough one, but it is, beneath all the issue, the struggle of two alpha males over you. You can't be the go-between. You'll get squished.

I'm liking the idea of staying out of it and doing what I feel is right.

I'm in counseling with Steve H. and will be scheduling with him again.

It's of no use to beg either of them to go into counseling if they have no motivation to change.

OK Mimi .... here is my advice:

Everytime there is a "I get no respect" tone or complaint from your H .... bring the conversation back to the hurt your son is experiencing.

Say something like:

"I believe (name of child) is really sad and hurt by your decision to leave the family, and this is how (child) is expressing his hurt."

Repeat like a broken record.

Your H might say: "Yeah, but he needs to respect me as head of the house."

"Yes, I agree, but he's hurting and this is how he expresses his hurt."

Redirect away from respect and refocus on hurt feelings.

Pep

PS ... If there was a prior agreement between you that recovery means joint or individual counseling, it is not an option to drop out of that commitment. He is frightened. He is embarrased. he has to WORK through this and not be able to bully his way out of his commitment to recovery work. Recovery is tough Mimi .... I trust you to be tough. Don't back down from recovery therapy, or this will all come back at your face again.

Pep

Magnification of the normal vs the abnormal...??

normal teenage angst/rebelion vs extreme acting out...
attention seeking behavior because negative attention is better than no attention???....

who knows??

Well the only real fact about this whole situation is that your husband is the adult of the two....

and he stands at a great turning point in his life and the lives of his sons...
he stands at deciding that what communication tools he has used in the past have not served him well at all...and he (and YOU) can continue on this path of a man of few words..that has served no good..yet stands to serve the teaching of great damage to males under his type of rule...
OR he can use this whole thing as a postive catalyst of great change...reaching way beyond his own guilt and pain....and past that in to new waters of a peaceful family unit...

And if he believes that people can change...for the good or the bad...then surely he should believe that he can change the way he interacts with his own sons...and seek the path that serves them the best...

is continuing to express "pain over not feeling like a man in his house".

quite a myopic view of a man in my opinion....real men that want their children to grow up to be decent men..need to teach them more than the commanding of respect...even more important are the lessons of seeing our parents say they are sorry...and really mean it
or see that our parents also can do wrong...and can fix those things...and teach our children about forgiveness...and all those other warm fuzzy traits that serve humankind much more than how to demand respect...

Mimi...you are already taking to much of this on...

speak to him more globally so that it helps him see how a leader in a family assists their children in many types of lessons..

I would play the CATS IN THE CRADLE song for him as well...

It's of no use to beg either of them to go into counseling if they have no motivation to change.

your sons acting out is proof of motivation of wanting something from his father...
again it is your husband who is the adult...
do not lower your expectations on this...

sorry for this mess..mimi...
not sure any of this helps..
ARK

THANK YOU. THANK YOU. This is to all of you from the bottom of my heart. I think all of this is going to work out if I remain tough. Just talked to H again. He seems to be listening to me. It's going to be a long road though for all of us. The story continues to unfold and to unfold. H is happy now about an old family friend praising him about coming back home. What's crazy about it is , "How did she know that he left and now is back?" We haven't seen her in months and she is not a good friend. It made my H feel good though. Remember, the proud man.

Please keep the thoughts and suggestions coming.

[ September 16, 2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Remember Mimi .... when someone has had his head up his butt ... for a long time .... he is not going to be the most clear-headed thinker ..... for awhile.

Stand your ground Mimi .... you are his light of truth. Your strength and personal integrity will be a guide.

PS ... If there was a prior agreement between you that recovery means joint or individual counseling, it is not an option to drop out of that commitment.
My thoughts exactly! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This is one of the main problems I see happening when a ws returns home. Either there is no plan for counseling (we'll just "work it out" when they return <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) or if it was discussed, the bs tap dances around the ssue and it doesn't get done.

[ September 16, 2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Mimi, I'm really really worried about this situation. I don't see your H as Proud but rather as manipulative and controlling, and as weak rather than strong.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that your H laid down a set of conditions that you had to meet before he came home? What conditions did you set for allowing him to have another try? What has to change about his attitude?

His issue here is not really whether or not your son (HIS SON!!) respects him. How does he define "respect?" Total unquestioning allegiance and obedience is not respect. He knows in his heart that respect has to be earned, and he doesn't respect himself so why should anyone else?

Mimi, why is your H setting himself up as your son's rival? As other posters have said, your H is the adult. Why is he so jealous of your son - who just happens to be his son too?

This kind of possessiveness and outrageous demands are nerve-wracking. Yup, BTDT. My XH was incredibly jealous of our son and so possessive of me that he wouldn't even let the cat sit on my lap! He said more than once that our son was invading "his territory." Mimi, please get yourself and your son into family counselling. Please. My son is in prison - he acted out his rage and feelings of helplessness, got involved with drugs. Don't put your son at risk.

Keep thinking about a book I read that talked aobut roles in Marriage. The King/Head of the Household/Father role can be commanded by a man that doesn't feel confident in his role...feeling he doesn't deserve it, or has to command it to get respect.

He is a proud man, but it is a well-respected leader that gives his troops the same respect.

I think son has been hurt...very badly...and this can be H's opportunity to apologize to son. I know, Dad doesn't want to look bad, or humble himself in this power struggle, but it is a REAL man that admits when he's done something wrong and apologizes for it... He will shine in son's eyes...

In my experience, your son's attitude towards his Dad is not at all unusual or unexpected.

While I never left home, my youngest teen treated me with trememdous disrespect after my affair. I struggled with this...after all, I was still her father.

At first, my own guilt kept me from standing up to my own kid's bad behaviour. I felt as if I had no right to expect her to do right since I couldn't seem to do it myself.

This was a huge mistake

I could not shrink from my responsibility as a parent, no matter what she thought of me. By cleaning up my act, then being consistent with my expectations of her, we began rebuilding our relationship and she began to recover trust in me. This is a very slow process. Today, I believe she doesn't question the fact that I love her.

I believe your husband has to be the OWNER of this issue. I also believe that it's possible your son will not forgive his dad for a long time. If your son cannot respect the house rules that your husband and you mutually establish because of this, then I believe you have grounds to put him out of the house.

I disagree with some of the other posters here. While your husband is being hardheaded, your son is plenty old enough to be accountable for managing his feelings as well. He has no excuse for his behaviour.

LowOrbit

Loworbit .... thanks for sharing.

Mimi's WH has been home only one week.

Mimi -- Maybe you'll want to throw in your 2 cents in my post, inspired by your recent one.

I think Mimi's H has to swallow some of that egotistical pride and sit down to talk with his son. Apologize, admit his betrayal and take his licks.
He needs to be reassuring to his son of his love, rather than just living until son is gone from home?
Mimi, you said he came home to YOU! Sorry, but if he isn't man enough to face he has a son, a family and not just a woman to cater to his whims, then he is no man at all!
How horrible to wish his son gone for good. And to even consider moving son out of house?
Sorry, but if my H came home with that attitude I'd drive him back to the OW and dump him on her curb!Permanentely!
I hear all this going on like son is old enough to contain his feelings? Deal with it? How about the rat that created the mess! He's a hell of a lot older than his son and he hasn't set any good examples.
I hear a man who is still very selfish, self centered and demanding. He hasn't learned yet that it is his place to eat a lot of crow! RAW at that.
Son desperately needs counseling and not for H benefit, but for his own self worth and health mentally and emotionally.
Teenagers have a very rough time without the added stress this has brought to his life.
Teenagers have not yet learned the coping skills that many adults never learn either.
He's confused, feeling worthless/unloved in dad's eyes, and that he now has two people ganging up against him. HIS FEELINGS NEED VALIDATION.
We expect our youth to behave with wisdom and control when we aren't even capable of it ourselves at times.
Have you set family time to sit and talk of these feelings for all? And for H not to start out thinking his feelings matter most, completely ignoring that this son is a human being with all the feelings others have.
I say set time and make it strictly about son's voicing his feelings. Another time it can be about yours or H. There is a responsibility here to bring this young man to adulthood without feeling dysfunctional. And adulthood is not set in stone that it's arrived at 18 or 21.
Son should feel safe, loved, and supported by both parents. You still can have your own time alone as I'm sure son has many activities with his friends.
As long as H refuses counseling, thinks he needs none, they you, Mimi, will be the middle person always.
Sorry, if this sounds harsh, but I'm really feeling for this young man and what he is dealing with. Yes, he does need to at least be respectful enough to talk with family, dad especially and give a chance to the family. But his feelings must be considered and worked out as well.
Lou

I continue to truly appreciate all of your advice and consideration of my issues.

PEP seems to be on the right track about what I need to do.

I need to remain assertive and clear with my H about my position and how I will not cater to his demands. That was the old me. I am no longer like that. I find that I am continuing to gain his respect.

Steve H. said that RECOVERY will be another rollercoaster ride and it certainly is.

So with the support of you guys today I have remained steadfast in my position of how I will not go along with my H's desire for harsh punishments for my S. I will continue to stress the need for both of them to do the "right thing". I will expect, as some of you have said, for my son to be respectful of my H. Also son will need to comply with the house rules. If he does not, he will have reasonable consequences-not being kicked off of the football team! I will continue to expect H to go to counseling which may come in time. Really, Steve H. did not think counseling would work at this point for some reason. Maybe so early in RECOVERY! Maybe some theory he continues to have about my H.

Tonight at the gym FWH was a totally different person, attempting to cater to me. He mentioned how we will be going to my son's football game on Friday and the other son's game on Saturday. I did not bring this up in conversation. He did.

Off to do dinner. Will keep you posted.

A. M. and SHUGAH: I will post to you guys soon.

[ September 16, 2003, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi

With your boy ... you may want to sit with him and give him a chance to vent .... privately without his dad. Maybe 2 or 3 times a week take him to lunch just to be alone together.

You don't need to take sides, but just listen.

If you get either one (dad or son) pulling on you to take his side and spew venom about the other, say:

"The old Mimi would try to fix this for you. The new Mimi trusts you to be able to fix this yourself. I'm here to listen. Talk to me."

Give him your ear and your hugs.

Your son is a young male ... and those guys have such a difficult time expressing hurt in ways that don't look and sound like a tornado. (trust me, I KNOW)

Your WS is going to be lost for awhile, don't expect much from him right now.... just be true to your principles.

You can also tell your son that you are struggling yourself, and that anything that increases the tension in your home hurts you and distracts you from your healing. Ask him to cooperate with the house rules even though he is angry and hurt .... ask him to help make home peaceful. (but, your son may be MAD at you for taking your WS back .... so be careful) If it doesn't work .... keep asking.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hmmm I posted about this issue at the end of your last thread, just saying it might be good to talk to son one on one.

I really like what Pepper has suggested. Focusing on the fact that your son is reacting this way out of hurt. Also remind H that it does mean alot to S to have him at the football game, even if he won't acknowledge it.

I would also suggest, in a subtle way, working on promoting family feeling. One point to make to both H and S, independantly, is, people make mistakes, we are family, we can not let our family ties be broken by mistakes.

With your H, feather in some comments promoting that father- son tie. Obviously, H is proud of son's prowess on the football field, whether he admits it or not. Feather in some stuff like- "S is so determined to succeed in football- he's just like you in that regard" type stuff (in other words, emphasize the genetic link) or comment that you think some quality of H has been an excellent role model for S.

then you can throw in a few comments, like, these teenage years are so tumultuous, thank god you are home to set an example for S. I know it will take work, but eventually he'll settle down...

You need to get H thinking- his children are his legacy to this world. When he is old and gray, doesn't he want to be the patriarch, surrounded by his children and grand children, loving him and looking at him with respect. But he has to create that respect and that relationship. Try to find some other families to reference in terms of those kinds of relationships.

Don't get in between the 2, but you can work on each individually.

Remind your H that he is the adult here. Stand up to him if he is being unreasonable.

You do not demand respect, respect must be earned. What has your H done in the last year to earn his son's respect, or yours?
It is the curse of the BS that in our desire to have the WS return home we turn a blind eye to their faults. While WS is in the A the BS uses Plan A/B to become a new, improved version. But the WS returns basically unchanged, often with no remorse. They expect to return home and step back into their old position.
No one feels much respect for your H right now; I doubt that he really feels much respect for himself. That is a hard thing for a "proud" man to accept. So he tries to demand respect when he should be trying to earn it by showing understanding and compassion for his son and you.
I have asked before what conditions you gave your H for his return and what compromises you are willing to make. Mimi, you know you are a better person than you were before, you have earned someone who is willing to work to become a better person in return. You have earned respect.
Stay strong.

Mimi

Here is my take on it. Children, probably especially in the teen years, look to their parents as role models. One of the major difficulties they encounter in the teen period is that they recognise the imperfections of their parents as human beings. As they mature they will experience many of the same faults and failings themselves and will 'grow back' to the parents but now in a more adult relationship. However to do this they need to maintain a basic level of respect for their parents. What I think has happened is that your H has lost that respect from your son. Your son has probably now transferred most/all of his allegiances and aspirations to you as a role model. He has also learned some harsh lessons about life. He will no doubt have seen or sensed the tough times you have had and will see himself as having a role to protect and help you - you are the wronged party here.

Fundamentally I think this is about rebuilding trust. Your H needs to earn the trust of your son again. Until that happens your son will probably be angry because, amongst other things, he is fearful of you being hurt again.

I think you have got a lot of good advice from the people here. You need to let them work it out, and you need to be queen of the house for a while. You have a role as a mediator of sorts, an ear for each of them to talk to. Your son has a right to know what is going on, but he will not listen to your H at this stage. You need to talk to your son, especially if he won't go to counselling. Explain how the marriage is yours (you and your H) and it is a decision that the two of you have to make. Let him know how you understand his feelings. Your H has made a very big mistake and is in the process of atonement, but it is a very difficult process. Your son needs to have this made clear to him. His feelings are normal and justifiable, but he has to try to show some patience, for your sake.
Equally your husband needs to be made aware of exactly why your son is so angry and what he needs to do to regain this trust. At this jundture it is unlikely they will be able to do this in a face-to-face conversation. Maybe you could encourage them to write their thoughts down - if only to share with you rather than with each other.

Just my 2c. I think you are doing great. Keep up the good work. You inspire us all.

S.

I provided son the opportunity to vent yesterday and wow did he BLOW. I held him and told him that I loved him. He said that he wasn't feeling loved. I told him how much I appreciated him being there for me over the past few months. However, on the other hand, I told him how he needed to be respectful of the household. He was being obnoxious and unruly. Also, I voiced my understanding of how difficult it would be to forget and to forgive his F. He then made a miraculous turn all evening. He began to act like a normal human being, even conversing, although minimally with his D. WHEW! One small step!

I think I figured out some of what is going on with my H. Has anyone thought of the concept of deprogramming for the FWS? It seems like he is re-orienting himself back into the normal world. He even said yesterday "I am reestablishing relationships with people". The evenings after work seemed to have been particularly difficult for him. I have not asked him why but maybe that reminds him of time with her. He did not used to come home until bedtime when he was heavy into the A last year. Last night was our first normal night without uproar. We had a calm dinner, looked at a little TV, went to bed, like a normal couple. In the midst of this he asked, "She hasn't called you and bothered you again has she?" It was if he was realizing that there was some closure.

Other good stuff: He voices plans to go to both sons' football games. He is focused on consolidating all of our accounts both checking, savings and cell phone. I have access to all of the money. Steve H. said that is important.

I know that the ball can fall again today. It's a rollercoaster ride. Recovery is tough. However, it is worth it so far.

What are your thoughts about this deprogramming concept?

EXCELLENT!!!

Keep on being son's sounding board, the flood gates have opened but the river will keep flowing.

GOOD JOB MIMI!!! Son has to feel better to know you are on his side (on EVERYONES side) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Not sure what you mean by reprogramming, exactly? I know it took a long time for me to work my way back in to some similance of normal...and even then...it's all different. It became a NEW normal.

It's just one of those things. Some friendships still haven't repaired...although things are slowly getting there. Plus WE'VE changed...our marriage has changed. We don't go out to the same places or with the same people we used to. We go more places as a family...and rarely go out individually.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by reprogramming though. Can you explain...or maybe someone else will.

I just remembered. People who have been in a cult have to be deprogrammed. They have been isolated and cut-off from normal society and then have a hard time adjusting to the real world.

Another thing that he has been doing along these lines is calling me throughout the day. He just called me again for the second time this morning. He goes over exactly what he is doing. It could sound bizarre, for example: "Now I'm at the cleaners, I'm taking these clothes in..I just cashed a check", etc.

I'm realizing that we will have to figure out what our new life will be like..that it will never be the same.

Lots of Work!!!! Again, well worth it, to have my H calling and checking on me. Well, the calling also seems to be his way of orienting himself.

Keep the thoughts coming.

Thanks!!!

Mimi, happy to hear the progress with son. He obviously did need to vent! All people do and he's got a wonderful mom there for him.
Of course, our situation was so different here as dad never moved out. And I think he was more concerned about me calling OW than other way around.
He just wanted to forget the whole thing as though it never happened and move forward.
Your H, on the other hand was involved more deeply so I can see him having to readjust his living, thinking and actions.
It's good he is getting involved in son's activities. Time will heal your sons as they do love both parents and with care, do rebound nicely.
As children, we always think of parents as invincible. When we learn they are only human and err, it's a shock, then a maturing with the knowledge.
How has your H taken this talk you had with son? Or have you shared it?
I hope your H can embrace son with compassion and understanding, helping to bond them again.
I have alway felt children should be respected to speak their feelings, even when negative.
From there, you can give the guidance needed to help them cope and mature in a healthy way.
BTW, don't neglect you and H having your time off away from children. Time for romance! It's healthier for both you and sons.
One last thought. Were, or are you active in a church? Some have groups for all ages dealing with family problems. There just might be a youth group for your son to allow him time with peers struggling with same issues? Just a thought.They get their feelings validated by others, so they don't feel odd man out so to speak. And can relate to each other. Usually a youth pastor for counseling them on handling these issues in a constructive way.
Blessings. LouLou

Please let me hear from you guys.

I've been assertive about the need for H to go to football game with me tonight. It seems like he is going. I'm going for sure. My S is really trying!!!

I don't want to resort to drama in order to get your attention! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ September 19, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Dang! I know I posted something earlier and its not here!

I asked you to give your son a big hug for me! I really feel for him. I know how hard this all must be on him. Boys are very protective of their mothers and tend to "take over" [in their minds] when the dad leaves. Mine resented any interference in that role at all. They were hostile to my now boyfriend. So, I can imagine how your son feels with your H moving back and usurping his postion!

Hope you are doing well today, Mimi!

quote:
Please let me hear from you guys.

Ok Mimi,

I am checking in. No need for my know it all comments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You have been doing just "perfectly fine". Enjoy the moment and enjoy your night of watching your son play football while you are WITH your husband, is a great joy for ME!!!!

You have handled yourself quite well and am confident you will continue to do so...

Have a wonderful weekend as will I.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mimi - I am still so new here, I am not worthy to give you input!
But, being a woman, I will give it anyway.
I agree with what someone else said here - my high school sophmore is currently filling the roll as man of the house, and I can imagine that when/if dad moves back, son will not be anxious to step down. Both of my boys are trying to protect me. In fact, older son (who is starting offense and defense this year for his JV team!) mentioned to me the other day that although he would like Dad to come back, he doesn't want him back as the person he is right now. he doesn't like the person he is right now. I have to agree with that. Your son is sill trying to protect you.
I could never imagine trying to take my son off the football team. It would crush him.
If your H goes to the game tonight, good. enjoy. And think of me, as I sat at the game last night while WH and OW sat in the stands too. I cried the whole game. You have come along way Mimi girl.

Mimi, I think it's really necessary for dad and you to be there supporting him. Together!
Son needs to know dad still loves and shows interest in his life.
Have fun and may your son's team win! Loulou

H and I had a wonderful time at the football game. Son did well!! Waved up to us in the stands. Sounds too good to be true, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> This all shows the importance of me standing firm to my convictions. I learned this assertiveness and self-confidence during my PLANS!! This is a testimony to MBs. I know I still have tough times coming but I am enjoying this win.

As I mentioned before, seems like my H is coming out of a trance. He was nervous about re-orienting himself back into the community. People came up to speak to him as if he was coming back from war. It was weird but enjoyable to me. He seems thankful that he was able to pull it off.

Today we are going away for a night together.

Very happy to hear all is on track , and yes sit back and enjoy alittle you have worked very hard and proven that the PALNS do work and pacience is very important .

The part about H being nervous , rember when he was coming back and that weekend he made plans and it took you off gaurd that it seemed to be about doing the family thing and not the only both of you thing ?

Well this getting back in the grove with family and commuinity is important . they are nervous and it is a hurdale that he should get out of the way . Its important to H the way people will treat him after what he has displayed .

Its the same as being scared to come back to your BS , they do not want to feel rejected or defined but what they did cause they now know thats not "WHO THEY ARE" it was a mistake .

Its funny cause my H asked me when he came home HOW do I be around everyone again ? What do I do to show them ?

My response was you have nothing to prove to anyone , you need not to explain to anyone .

Me and your children are the ones who live with you , all that we see and hear are really what is important . You need no one elses approval .

The more he saw that as long as I stood by him , the less nervous he was about being around anyone else . But yes it still was important to him , he wanted others to see he was sorry and that he was "BACK" .

Well following your recovery and am very happy for you .

Dear MIMI...

Recovery is like a slow unfolding of truths .... a gradual revealing of one's own strengths and weaknesses.

YOU have learned that you don't need to be afraid of your own strengths.

cool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pep

As of today, things are continuing to go unbelivevably well.

H and I went to both of our boys' football games. Yesterday H and I took older son out to eat and to a movie. FUN!!!

I've been using Espoir's recommendations in talking about H's legacy with his sons and how they inherited their athletic prowess from him. All true but I never voiced this. This allows me to sincerely offer the ADMIRATION that he desires. I can tell that he appreciates this as he is frequently bringing it up in conversation. It also helps that male fans are commending HIM on our son's athletic success. IT'S A MAN'S WORLD!
YUK! I guess we have to face the reality of this.

Another interesting observation, indicating the realness of FOG. H is remarking on different objects in the house saying, "When did you get this?" in reference to accessories that I have had for years. He is embarassed to have not noticed. He was in ANOTHER WORLD then.

I continue to have a sense of sadness which I cannot explain. I look over at him and should be happy. I'm really with my H again. It is really HIM.

I'm taking it one day at a time.

[ September 22, 2003, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

It sounds like it is going very well.

As for the sad feelings... mimi, when you are fighting for your M, it is like an adrenaline surge, you are literally fighting for your life- your life as you know it. When I went through that, I lost alot of weight, I had cardiac arrhythmias that I had never had before, sleep disturbances etc.

When it was all over, my H was back, I really crashed. I think there was a letdown after the surge of all the adrenaline hormones. I became very depressed, and I was grieving terribly for my lost innocence in my M and my world. I couldn't understand why I was so sad, after all, I had my H back. I think part of it was that my H was one of these proud WS- and he simply could not do certain things I needed him to do at the time I needed him to do them. We recovered anyway, but at a cost to my emotional state. Anyway, I ended up going on antiD's which did help, but in some ways I am still struggling with my own emotions.

Anyway, I hope you don't go through this reaction, but know that you may feel a "letdown" and it is something that can be worked through. The most important thing is to let your H know how he can help you with it. And also remember that time will help.

Regarding your sons, I am glad that the "legacy" tactics are helping. I think there are two sides to it- one is reinforcing your H's sense of self, and connection to his sons, by emphasizing the genetic and emotional connection. So your H can feel good about himself through his sons' accomplishments which reflect on him.

The other part is reminding your H how much his sons need him- to guide them, to love them, to accept them- even if they are adolescents hurling curses in his face at this moment! And this is where your H has an opportunity to grow. We know he is proud. But a big man, a father, can admit if he's made a mistake- and apologize. That may be something your H needs to work on. You may want to look at, and think about, H's own family of origin issues which may well be affecting him. Did H's father show love for him? Or was he a tough guy who would never show weakness? What did your H learn from his own dad that is affecting his parenting?

Mimi, you mentioned that sense of sadness and I'm reminded of something my counselor said to me. Grow a new Branch. Hence, my name here.
I had told him the feelings that so much was lost, and our marriage would never feel as it once had. That sadness is knowing or feeling the loss of that wonderful feeling of security we had, feeling our love was unique and couldn't be breached. Once it was, for me, I know it can't ever be that way again.
But as my counselor said, you grow a new branch and create a new marriage so to speak.
You're just laying the foundation right now, and can build it in any style you wish. In time, I think the sadness is replaced by a new feeling once we see the US is home, making effort to rebuild, and we can not live each day wondering if they're going to bolt again.
You've done a great job, and now you may want to ask your doctor for some meds if you start to feel unduly sad for more than few days. They really helped me get a firm hold on me again.
Blessings. LouLou

Mimi,

When your husband returned, I posted WELCOME TO RECOVERY.

Now, with the sadness, I have to say again...WELCOME TO RECOVERY.

I live with this everyday, especially since my wife still says that she doesnt have those intimate or affectionate feelings for me, and feels that she may never have them. That something was destroyed in her.

You are in the beginning of recovery. It was like going thru the hurricane last week. when it was over, and you poked your head out of the rubble, you were glad to be alive. Now, a week into it, the adrenaline has faded, the mess that has been made is now very obvious to you, and you start to realize that things being "normal" again, are going to take a long time of cleaning and rebuilding.

The A was "white knuckle time." Just hold on and wait out the storm. It was all you could do. Now, the hard work begins...for both of you. For your kids too. Make sure you both get into counseling immediately. Our recovery has been poisoned by waiting too long to do so.

Your feelings are normal. Understand that your FWH has a lot of stuff to deal with also...and some of it, he will have to do alone.

A new rollercoaster ride is about to begin...but this time you are both riding it together! As you go along, this ride will be rough in the beginning. But the experts and tohers who have been thru this have assured me that the ride gets smoother with time.

Time is the key ingredient here. We cannot substitute anything for it. So, like was said above, get some meds if you need it. Get both of you into counseling ASAP. And take one day at a time. And then two days. Then a week. Then a month.

This is what I have begun to tell myself. Each passing day that we are together and working at this is one more day to build trust, and to clean up the mess. Once we have built something and have cleaned up enough of this mess, it is my hope that it will be then that we will feel safe enough to truly get back to "normal."

Oh, and by the way...dont keep this sadness from him. He will KNOW you are sad. If you dont tell him, it will hurt him all the more. So tell him. Let him know that it isnt "buyers remorse." It is just a stage that you must go thru. That you still love him, and that everything is fine.

In His arms.

[ September 23, 2003, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

Hello, My Friends:

Tomorrow makes 3 weeks and it's going almost unbelievably well. Both my son and H are trying. I think my stamina, assertiveness, and self-esteem built up over the past several months have been the keys to success.

My H is acting more and more like himself again. We genuinely feel comfortable with each other. I almost forget what has happened.

I realize how I had gotten out of the practice of acting like a wife. It often seems almost too time-consuming and overwhelming to give him all the attention that he seems to need. Sadly, he must have relied on the OW for this attention. I used to give him a lot of attention like this many years ago before the children came along. I'm going back to doing what he liked and needed. In turn, he is meeting my needs again. Unbelievable!!

There are crazy times when he says stuff that does not make sense. I know this is when he is back into the life he had with her. I try to disregard those comments. Also, it seems that he tries to test me to see if I will turn back into the person I was before PLAN A or the person that he thought that I was. It helps to be on top of this and aware of what is going on.

MB has provided me with the techniques and the strategies.

I know we are not out of hot water but this feels real good.

Thanks for being there for me, MB Friends!!!!

MIMI,

You are doing so great!!! I know how hard it is to keep things in perspective. But, this I know, you CAN do it all. Keep fulfilling your H's EN's, and I know it will come back to you 10 fold.

You know where you were lacking in your H's EN's.

I know where I was lacking in my H's EN's. You can DO this!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And you can love your children too. Plus your H is into the sports, the boys got it from him, so this is all good.

But your H comes first. It's okay, you love your kids, but in a different way. H comes first, his EN's. And don't tell me I don't love my kids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M

[ September 25, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Miss M ]

Please share your perspectives on what is going on here and how I should react to my FWH.

He MOVES BACK AND FORTH between expressing his guilt over the A and expressing resentment over the mistakes that I made in the marriage. When in the REPENTANT MODE , he says stuff like "I just can't believe what I did"; "I can't believe I was with that crazy girl", "I was really out there", etc. He openly questions why he couldn't resist temptation and talks about "evil forces" coming at him. On the other hand, he goes into the ANGRY, BLAMING MODE , expressing his resentment over the needs that I was not meeting before the A. He can go on a rant about how I NEVER cooked or whatever, exaggerating the truth. Is he doing this to relieve himself of the pain that he is feeling?

Also, I asked him the questions of: DO YOU MISS HER? and HOW DID YOU FEEL IN THE AFFAIR? He was opening up a lot on Saturday and seemed to want to talk to me. He said he did not miss HER but does miss the FEELING that the A gave him. The feeling was BEING NO. 1 in her life. I think it was really being the only person in her life. He knows no though that she was just "PRETENDING" , he says and he says he was pretending too. He wonders now if it was a scheme for money since in the end she questioned him about not helping her out more financially. They drank a lot he says towards the end.

This is the thing that gets me. I asked: How did she make him feel like #1? He particularly liked it that she would "GET RID OF AND IGNORE HER CHILD FOR HIM." He knew it was wrong and he considers her a bad mother but it felt good to him. WHY? His main issue with jme is feeling like I put the kids first. So his fantasy would be for ME to get rid of my kids. He knows that I can't do it and does not want me to do it but I think he has this as some primal fantasy of having ME all to himself and this would the true testimony of my love for him. The reason that I say this is that everything our son at home now does wrong to my H. He says that he does not want him around and is waiting for him to leave to go to college. He says that he is just counting the days. My son is really being obnoxious, disrespectful and loud. My son recognizes that I am now putting my H first which is as it should have always been and is jealous. I know my family system sounds crazy because I think sreallydoes want his F to leave again so he also can have me all to himself. SICK, I know.

I asked my H what he thought it was going to be like when he came home with teenage son here. He said the thought it would be awful but he thought he could tolerate it but it is difficult for him. As I said before, OW would farm her child out to other people and our son is going nowhere.

You see, H says that he definitely decided that he wants to be with ME but with ME ALONE without the "BAGGAGE". He knows that this is the wrong way to be but that is how he feels. What I said is to this is that is being rejecting of ME and the person that I am if he expects me to deprive and abandon our son as a testimony of my love for him. He says he only wants to deal with resolving his relationship with me.

He knows that I am upset with him about this and is trying to make up with me today in his telephone contacts. I am trying to be nice to him but am bothered by his revelations.

We did have some great times together over the weekend. H said "We're coming along, we worked on the yard together and that was fun". He wanted me to watch him and talk with him as he gardened. We also jogged. He loved all of this. I realized that I had not given this much attention in years.

What are your thoughts?

Please share your perspectives on what is going on here and how I should react to my FWH.

He MOVES BACK AND FORTH between expressing his guilt over the A and expressing resentment over the mistakes that I made in the marriage. When in the REPENTANT MODE , he says stuff like "I just can't believe what I did"; "I can't believe I was with that crazy girl", "I was really out there", etc. He openly questions why he couldn't resist temptation and talks about "evil forces" coming at him. On the other hand, he goes into the ANGRY, BLAMING MODE , expressing his resentment over the needs that I was not meeting before the A. He can go on a rant about how I NEVER cooked or whatever, exaggerating the truth. Is he doing this to relieve himself of the pain that he is feeling?

Also, I asked him the questions of: DO YOU MISS HER? and HOW DID YOU FEEL IN THE AFFAIR? He was opening up a lot on Saturday and seemed to want to talk to me. He said he did not miss HER but does miss the FEELING that the A gave him. The feeling was BEING NO. 1 in her life. I think it was really being the only person in her life. He knows now though that she was just "PRETENDING" , he says and he says he was pretending too. He wonders now if it was a scheme for money since in the end she questioned him about not helping her out more financially. They drank a lot he says towards the end.

This is the thing that gets me. I asked: How did she make him feel like #1? He particularly liked it that she would "GET RID OF AND IGNORE HER CHILD FOR HIM." He knew it was wrong and he considers her a bad mother but it felt good to him. WHY? His main issue with jme is feeling like I put the kids first. So his fantasy would be for ME to get rid of my kids. He knows that I can't do it and does not want me to do it but I think he has this as some primal fantasy of having ME all to himself and this would the true testimony of my love for him. The reason that I say this is that everything our son at home now does wrong to my H. He says that he does not want him around and is waiting for him to leave to go to college. He says that he is just counting the days. My son is really being obnoxious, disrespectful and loud. My son recognizes that I am now putting my H first which is as it should have always been and is jealous. I know my family system sounds crazy because I think sreallydoes want his F to leave again so he also can have me all to himself. SICK, I know.

I asked my H what he thought it was going to be like when he came home with teenage son here. He said the thought it would be awful but he thought he could tolerate it but it is difficult for him. As I said before, OW would farm her child out to other people and our son is going nowhere.

You see, H says that he definitely decided that he wants to be with ME but with ME ALONE without the "BAGGAGE". He knows that this is the wrong way to be but that is how he feels. What I said is to this is that is being rejecting of ME and the person that I am if he expects me to deprive and abandon our son as a testimony of my love for him. He says he only wants to deal with resolving his relationship with me.

He knows that I am upset with him about this and is trying to make up with me today in his telephone contacts. I am trying to be nice to him but am bothered by his revelations.

We did have some great times together over the weekend. H said "We're coming along, we worked on the yard together and that was fun". He wanted me to watch him and talk with him as he gardened. We also jogged. He loved all of this. I realized that I had not given this much attention in years.

What are your thoughts?

[ September 29, 2003, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Mimi-

You're husband's feelings are very on par with someone coming out of the FOG.

He's trying to resolve in his own mind the how's and why's of what he's done. You've had so much time on MB sorting through it all. He's just beginning to. He needs to start exploring the Anger and pain that he was feeling that led HIM down this path. He's moving in the right direction and his wavering is a normal process. Instead of feeling threatened by it, embrace it.

Help him to explore this. As much as it will hurt, you need to be his best friend and put up with some more painful stuff in order to get through it.

My best to you-

One thought: does he realize that the fact that OW was able to dump her kids is very much connected with why the A didn't work?

She wasn't putting HIM first, she was putting HERSELF first, and the mutual selfishness is what destroyed the A. The dumping of kids was a symptom of that.

You're not like that. That's why he's with you. Maybe that will help him connect the dots.

And yes, I think the anger is to relieve his own guilt.

Maybe you could go away for a weekend together -- that way reconciliation won't be in son's face? Maybe it would give son a break, too. And you could, at least for a spell, fulfill H's fantasy of having you alone.

Good point, AM, about the selfishness of the OW.
He's called her selfish, even narcissistic. I will remind him of that when he is thinking positively about her. It's clear that the longer that he stays away from her, the better. It will be a month on Friday and she told him that he would not be able to last a month without her. She seems to have known the power that she had over him.

Kily:

Thanks for encouraging me to embrace what's going on. I've been wanting to give up. Staying focused on being his friend has helped today. He seems to continue to appreciate the phone conversations, staying connected throughout the day. In regards to letting go of the anger and resentment about the past, I suggested that we take up hiking. He seemed to think it was a good idea but then said "That hurts my feelings that you are realizing this now when you wouldn't take a simple walk with me in the neighborhood". Rather than getting defensive, I continued with the conversation. He was allowed to vent and then we carried on with planning hikes in the future. The point is that we are talking and that is good. I've been trying to encourage him to communicate with me because I don't believe he told me in the past how important events like taking a walk are to him. Of course, I should have noticed if he kept asking me to go with him. I really don't remember him doing that though.

mimi, it sounds like things may still be a bit foggy. Recovery is going to be a long, difficult process but you seem to be doing well. IMHO you may need to back away from the R talk for a while longer.
My advice would be to basically ignore the talk about the son. H knew son would be there when he came home,and you being a good mother is one of the things that sets you apart from OW.
Not to be negative, but red flags should go up when H says he doesn't miss HER but misses the FEELING the A gave him. That's a bit like saying you don't miss the alcohol just the buzz you got from it.
Getting away together, just the two of you, sounds like a great idea if it can be arranged. In SAA it is said that some of the best recoveries involve couples who can be together almost twenty-four hours a day during withdrawl. An extended vacation or successive weekend getaways are recommended.

23:

Tell me more about the RED FLAGS you were referring to in your post.

Once you get addicted to alcohol, isn't it true that you are just needing to keep the buzz going even though you know drinking is bad for you?

Seems like the consensus here is more time alone. Less R talk.

I'll be off next week for two weeks. That should be great since H is self-employed and makes his own hours.

[ September 29, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Hi Mimi-

Me again-

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He seemed to think it was a good idea but then said "That hurts my feelings that you are realizing this now when you wouldn't take a simple walk with me in the neighborhood". Rather than getting defensive, I continued with the conversation. <hr /></blockquote>I just wanted to throw this out to you...the next time he makes a comment like this, stop. Don't continue the conversation and blow it by. Try saying the following:

H, you're right. I didn't see how important this was to you in the past. I'm sorry. The reason that I want to do this now is because I realized while you were gone that this was something that did hurt you. If it's okay, I'd like to do this for us...as part of our new start.

The reason for this is to let him know that you validate his pain and that you've learned to listen. It helps him let go of his resentment and allows him to build trust towards you.

Two things. First one is WS's try to do guilt tranference. It's part of the phase they go through and don't like themselves. So they try to place blame elsewhere!
Don't allow that! He had choices besides adultery.
Secondly, now that children are teenagers, it's time to truly set aside quality time alone with H. Stop the demands of kids having you run them constantly to this and that if this is what's going on there.
Kids can be involved in a lot of activities and if you allow it, they will suck the life out of you! LOL I Know. You have to split it up.
You can't attend every event they have, drive them everywhere and make the world revolve around them anymore!
Handbook to happiness is a great book. I'm sorry about not remembering Author but I think it's Dobson.
Puts your life in perspective and where it should be in attentions given.
First is Christ as the center!
Next is spouse.
then kids!
then the rest of the world outside those.
And yes, you can allot time for each. Make a chart and put you and H on it each week for quality time alone. Kids are not allowed to disrupt that! They are only allowed to ask or interupt you if they see blood or bone!
Parents need a life without kids all time. But the kids need to know their place and that they're loved also. I wouldn't give my kids up for anyone! They just come in where they need to be, not where they want to be!
LouLou

Mimi, I agree with the others about your H's state of mind. He is going through a normal recovery. And he probably is somewhat resentful that his needs weren't being met at home before the affair. There is probably some lingering anger in addition to a little guilt transference going on.

The part that hurts is hearing about your son. He has been through so much already and is as much in need of healing as you. Yet he has to deal with the continued rejection of his own father.

Would your H consider counseling, Mimi? What is he doing to overcome these inappropriate feelings?

Please don't let my comments disturb you, mimi. You are doing a great job, and your PlanB success and recovery are an inspiration to me. I am only suggesting that such statements from your H should remind you to stay vigilant.
Can someone addicted to alcohol think that drinking is bad for them? Yes indeed. But the addiction forces them to believe that they need the buzz and that there is no other way to get that feeling.
WSs become addicted to the feelings, even though they may realize (when the fog begins to lift) that the A was bad for them. I think that a large part of recovery is WS understanding that those feelings are not worth the consequences of the A or that those feelings can be found in the M.

I'm still at a loss as to what to do about my S. He is being unreasonable despite me allowing him to vent and negotiating with him. He insists that he wants "things like the way they were before D came home". It's clear that he wants his D to leave. He said "He's going to leave you". He is a bad spot in our lives. When I ask him to do something simple, he starts to yell and to curse even at me and then asks, "what are you going to do, throw me out?" Oppositional and defiant is what I would call him. He says he doesn't need counseling but D and I do. The past two mornings he's walked in our bathroom and used my H's cologne right in front of him as if to provoke a fight. H ignores him and insists that this won't make him leave.

H continues to be loving and accountable to me. We are having fun, jogging and working in the yard. Our S hates this as he is not used to me giving attention to my H as it should have been all along. I guess he can't recognize that it is in his best interest to have married parents.

Other thing: OW called my office again, asking my secretary if I am at work today. Is this meant to cause me to have doubts about my H?

[ October 01, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Call Harley's and ask what might be the best course of action regarding your S.

Teenage boys disguise hurt and fear feelings as anger. It is "safer" for them to be tough brats than cry like a baby .... which is how they feel.

He's frightened. If you ask him, he'll deny. Does he have a school counselor?

Pep

Hi mimi
I have followed your struggle over the past months. I know it's been a rough ride and still is. I have something to say about your son and the way he behave towards his dad. It seems to me that your son is testing the seriosity of dads "comeback". Your son was abandoned too - just like you were. He is probably unaware of the fact that deep inside he fear that dad will leave again - leave you and leave him. Son is trying to drive his dad away - not because he want him to leave but because he want to be assured he will stay no matter what.
If your H was able to say to you and your son "I promise I will NEVER leave you again" AND show it so that you all believed he meant it this time... I'm sure your S would calm down.
It takes time and patience to heal a broken heart and recreate trust!

I wish you all the best! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mimi, about the OW calling. I'd worry a just enough to keep checking up on where H is. But it could be her idea of trying to catch him without you so she can try to persuade him back.
Did you tell H? And ask him about it?
For me, I'd have my secretary telling her I was on extended leave! LOL
Your H is his own boss. So can you drop over on lunch, or take a visit anytime of day?
Or too far?
Obviously, your H knows when you work so why would OW have to check to see if she was meeting him? She wouldn't!
I think it's all her doing, and none of his.
How might you put the fear of God into her once and for all? Think on it.
Sorry about problems with S. It's tough on kids, And he lost respect for dad. But he has no right to try to drive your H from home again.
I would suggest some tough love reading and counseling for the son. If he refuses, you need to find out how to deal with him from a professional.
He's really trying to break your marriage up for good.
Not a good sign.
LouLou

What is going on with that OW? Was she smart enough to know what would raise my doubts about my H? Is she just letting us know that she is a presence and we can't just try to go on with our lives.

I hate this! You see, H just had to call me to ask about another route to get where he is going in order to avoid her. He is also made the call to reassure me because he can figure out the route on his own. I appreciate that.

What are your thoughts?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mimi1254:
.....Other thing: OW called my office again, asking my secretary if I am at work today. Is this meant to cause me to have doubts about my H?<hr /></blockquote>Report this to your HR dept and check out with your local law enforcement to find out what your options are. Even though she is borderline psyco, a judge may consider this a type of stalking or something with a legal bite.

Don't minimize her actions. Don't inflate them either....it is a hard line to walk.

L.

Hey Mimi

Just checkin in....keep up the good work. You are getting lots of good advice from the good people here.

My 2c:

OW is calling to register her presence. She wants your H, but fears she is fighting a losing battle. It is a death throe.

Your S is is expressing fear that Dad will leave again. He has lost trust and is confronting his fears in a sense. If dad does leave again then he is 'right'. He wants to be proved wrong. H has to do this, but you can help prepare the ground.

Good luck

S.