The Big Stick Theory - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I actually hope I am wrong on this, but is recovery slowed or in my case needs less likely to be met if we don't have a Big Stick?By a Big Stick, I mean the ability and willingness to dole out serious consequences for a spouse's actions or lack of action.We have no spanking policy in our house (thankfully we have 3 relative angels). But if my kids break a rule or do not obey me, there are consequences. Although all my kids have shown an amazing desire to be good kids and please us, if there were no consequences, I wonder if that desire would slowly erode. Now to make this personal. Even though my H and I are enjoying a complete and solid recovery from the affair (which my H thought I would have ended the marriage if he had continued), we seem to be having a real sticking point getting him to meet my needs.In his defense, part of the reason is his personality. He really is quite clueless. And I know that he is 100% committed to our life and family...so from HIS point of view our marriage IS his first priority.What I can't seem to get him to "get" is that I need to personally feel like his top priority. I'd like him to burn with desire for me, but I would settle for him talking with me without shifting uncomfortably in his chair because anything other than vital communication is time spent when he could be "doing something". Hey, I don't have the time to talk endlessly...I'm talking 5, 10 minutes just about the days events. We can work up to (gasp) a feeling, wouldn't want to risk heart failure. I would love a grand gesture of his undying love, but I would be happy with a note scribbled on a torn off piece of a McDonald's bag saying he was thinking of me.Anyway, don't get me going, you catch the drift.I believe my H is happier than he has ever been in the marriage. He really has few needs and does not expect much from me even when I am ready and willing to give him the moon. And he would never say this, but I get the feeling he would be relieved if I returned the favor and just be happy with his particular brand of love and commitment. He lacks the ability to see things from another's point of view.So what can I do? I don't have a big stick. It is not like I can say, meet my needs you big lunk head or I am going to...what leave? No, he knows I would not do that. Be mean or shut myself off from him? No that would go against my belief that according to my wedding vow I am responsible for what I put INTO the marriage regardless of what I get OUT of it.Hey could obviously use a wake up call. But I don't have a Big Stick, or a twig, even a wet blade of grass.Sorry to talk about you people, but in contrast Lor's H finally finally came around when she served D papers and started moving on. Correct me if I am wrong, but schizzo held out the possibility of seperating if H didn't meet her needs. And look at the numbers of the betrayed that quite suddenly had to change to hold on to their marriages.Does getting what you want boil down to having a Big Stick and the willingness to use it?Does 100% commitment to the marriage without considering D or seperation as an option strip you of an important tool to motivate your spouse to meet your needs?I hope not, but I am beginning to wonder.

The "big stick" IMO is that he knows you will not be happy if the needs are not met.Mine is not as clueless (by far) as yours, but I DO share some of your feelings. Have you done the exrecise where you outline, in very specific detail, 5 things your spouse could do to meet each of your most important needs? Sounds mechanical, but it works, and it teaches how to make the other FEEL loved...

As far as a Big Stick goes, I think you DO have a small twig. You can let him know what kinds of things speak love to you and when he doesn't do it, let him know in a non-LB way (that's always the tricky part).Unfortunately with clueless men, you have to always ask for what you want. I haven't figured out how to do that without coming across as a nag. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ...but I would settle for him talking with me without shifting uncomfortably in his chair because anything other than vital communication is time spent when he could be "doing something". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How about talking WHILE 'doing something'? If the 'something' is mindless enough (i.e. doesn't require intense concentration) he should be able to devote enough attention to the conversation to meet your needs while at the same time meetin ghis need to 'do something'.[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited August 08, 2000).]

FHL:In MB parlance, you want to approach this from a least invasive (low risk) method and gently escalate your tactics.I'd suggest the following:1. Give him this post (or something similar). He might simply be so clueless that you need to write it down for him. If this is the case, then you need to discuss, and then make a plan (this is the MB counseling approach). It's just like Kathi outlines above.2. Make an appointment with the MB counseling center. If your husband doesn't want to actively participate, perhaps he'd agree to serve as "feedback" for Steve or Jenn. As long as they can get him on the phone, they're very good at sucking him into counseling...3. If these are ineffective, Steve or Jenn might suggest a separation as a means to get these needs met. I think there's a lot of stuff that can be tried before this happens (and they'd help you with it), but sometimes a separation is necessary simply to underscore the seriousness of these issues.I'm guessing that it's not the case for you---that you just need some help getting your point across. And if you do end up separated, I don't want you tying up my wife's weekends with shopping sprees at the Art Fairs... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

OK..just after the affair we read SAA together. I know I at least ranked my needs and I believe I handed them to him. I think he put it on the stack of his paperwork and never even read it. I am sure I did a detailed list of 20 specific ways that he could make me feel loved which I think came from Chapman's Five Love languages. He glanced at it and put it on his stack of paperwork. A few weeks ago he was cleaning his stuff up and I found it in the trash. When he cast these aside, he admittedly was in his weird period. Still, have tried many times to articulate what I need in a non LB way. H will answer. I do love you. Aren't things better? (Obviously they are for him). And my personal favorite "We just need to do more things together." (meaning his recreational activities)Actually after reading SAA it dawned on me how huge recreational stuff was to my H and how I never held him back, but I did not make enough of an effort to join him. I corrected that and continue to work on that.I made some other changes, too, but nothing as dramatic as my change in attitude about recreation. He does want me to be happy.I have to say I don't expect my H to "make me happy". That comes from within and no one can give it to you. In fact to depend an another for happiness is to be a prisoner. I can just see how much happier I could feel within my marriage, but I am not unhappy in my marriage now. I have a good solid marriage with a good and wonderful man. I have been blessed beyond measure, yet I feel with just a little attitude adjustment and a little effort, our marriage could be incredible.I guess maybe you could get the impression that I am unhappy because I tend to only ask for help here when I have sustained a disappointed and my hurt is showing. Most of the time we are fine and we get along well.

K, Since I have had time to think with family gone, and finding the 5 steps workbook stuffed under my bed, I really have committed to asking H in joining me in mechanically working this out. He won't like it, but I don't think he would actually refuse. So instead of complaining, that is something I can do, although with his schedule, we really do have very limited time to work on this right now. Still if you never start, you never finish, right?But K, my needs would never be enough to seperate. I could not upset my family. We are a very strong solid unit. I would not destablize that even overnight. That is why I dug in and worked the affair out. I do believe I am putting them first by putting my marriage first and never giving up in hope or action, but I could not do something that would not be in their best interest. It is not like my H or I fight or there is tension in the house. In fact, we are quite affectionate around the kids.And the absolute unwillingness to seperate kind of restates my lack of a stick theory.If I renew my efforts in a non LBing fashion and he STILL can not "get" it, I will consider counseling here. I can't imagine him participating in counseling. Steve or Jen would ask a question and there would be dead silence. For variety he might toss in "I don't know", "I've never thought about that" "I guess that might be true" or the truly indignant "Well this could take an hour to talk about!" (meaning there is no way I am going to talk about this).

You may just have to take it slow.Maybe instead of giving him a long list, start with just one EN, and give him the 5 specifc things he could do to meet that need.Maybe explaining to him that there is a difference between KNOWING (with your head) that he loves you, and being able to FEEL it would help...he sees no reason to do any of this bcs "you know I love you." But, its not about knowing, it is about feeling. SInce that appears to be unfamiliar territory for him [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

you will probably have to give him step-by-step directions. But, I bet if you are patient, he will get there.I know that having to give step-by-step instructions is frustrating to you, but it is probably more comfortable for him to have specific things to do, steps to accomplish. And, do make them very specific...we are talki9ng paint-by-numbers here.OK, I've convinced myself [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

...I'm going to drag this approah out again and see if I can't make a little more progress too...Kathi

FHL, et alSad but true... the "big stick" is effective. For many of us our spouse's affair was the big stick which caused serious soul searching and a change of heart (and a willingness to Plan A the betrayer against all notions of fairness and common sense)I do believe that for some percentage, no Plan A, Plan B, book reading, etc. will do the trick. Sadly, the last resort is the "big stick". Sometimes a change of heart can only occur when you get that icy feeling that the big stick is coming right at you.Would WE (betrayeds) have had the change of heart we had without the big stick of the affair? Probably not. Sometimes I wonder if I am working against my marriage's long-term best interest by NOT using the big stick.------------------ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Galatians 5:22-23

Hi FHL, Our situations are very, very similar. I, too, would love to have my wife burn with desire for me. I, too, would love to a little note simply saying she's thinking of me. I would love a compliment or a simple gesture that says "I'm special". I have come to realize the path of recovery is different for all of us. I wouldn't use the idea that your husband is clueless - he's not. He gives you what he wants to give. No more - no less. It doesn't mean he doesn't love you with all he has. I think affair make us hypersensitive to our relationships. Prior to the affair, would you be upset with how he is treating you? Do you want more then? I know in my case, my wife and I are getting along better than we have in years (except physically). We talk and listen to one another at length. I've gotten to know her again, and I find sharing time with her completly satisfying. I give her little notes - every day. I give her a long love letter every anniversary. I give her flowers for no reason. I give her lots of compliments. I give her loads of non-sexual touch - every day. And yet, with all I do, I get very few of my needs met. When I step back, I see progress. I see her slowly changing over time. She separated herself from me emotionlly during the affair. Every bad thing I did was brought to the surface. Every good thing I did sunk to the bottom. It just takes so long to heal. I don't know what your H went through emotionally. Many betrayers get a load of guilt piled on them when we betrayed do the things necessary to heal the marriage. They think that they deserve us. Every they thought was felt and believed for a time is not false. Their morals and beliefs were compromised. That's a pretty heavy load to carry. I continue to hope and pray that in time my wife's heart will heal. That she will be able to find desire and intimacy with me again. But, again, TIME is the key. Perhaps you are giving to much or you're giving beyond what you would normally give out of love. You give expecting something in return. We all do that. We all want to feel loved and needed. We all want to be desired. You know, one thing this life lesson taught me was that now I know what a good marriage should be and I want that, I want that more that I ever thought I did in the past. I hope your husbnad wakes up to how special you are. I hope he realizes the gift he has been given in you. There is a good little book that I have called "Husband 101". It's a simple book with all the little things us bone headed husbands should have done from the day we said "I do". If he would do thoise things, he would not only be happier in his marriage, he would see you blossom into a wife beyond his dreams. Blessings to you FHL, SHA

2sad4words...Love your signature...another of my favorite verses. As a Christian in my particular situation, D is not an option. I don't want it to be an option. I want my H, I want my family. I like my life. Although who knows what we would have really done, I think I would have sent him packing if he continued the affair. He didn't...alledgedly he didn't even have sex and he wasn't even really emotionally bonded.He he ever walked out on me? Fine...I would define that as malicious abandonment and move on. I can not imagine that happening. I wouldn't want it to. I want my H.I can't stop trying and hoping, but I can't let myself get beat up emotionally long term either. There are so many fine lines.But really the point of this post is the validity of the BIG STICK.

FHL, I don’t know if you are familiar with my story, but I wielded a really big stick when I threatened to file a very socially embarrassing lawsuit against my h’s ow. Short of directly threatening her children, I couldn’t have done anything to frighten her more. There are different strokes for different folks, but I knew what would terrify ow and my h, and I went there.I really regret having to use a “big stick” to force my h to choose me. However, they were on such a high, I think they would’ve dragged us all down into chaos before they had a rational thought. While my h recovered relatively quickly - or at least within a time frame that’s pretty normal from what I’ve read here - the damage to my self esteem, trust, etc. took much longer to heal. It would’ve been incomparably easier to take if at some point while he still had a choice, my h had put me ahead of ow. However, while he was demanding exellence from me in many areas including looks, personality, athletics, fitness, sexual performance, professional expertise, community involvement, financial contribution, parenting skills, adoration of him (espec. hard while he was exhibiting the morals and values of a muskrat);etc., she basically was only responsible for looking good and worshiping him. Like your h, my h has always expected me to be his partner in very physical recreational activities. However, the most physical ow ever got was a walk aroung the block. I contribute substantially to the family income, she has never had a full time job. My h has always enjoyed an active and passionate sex with me and did all during his affair. There was no sexual relationship with her.The 2 of them during their affair could not have reasoned their way out of a paper bag. Therefore, I felt it necessary to wield th “big stick.” After that day, I have not used it again (although I admit that had they resumed any contact, they knew it was there and BELIEVED I would’ve used it instantly. My h recovered; ow continues to hate her h but needs him to support her lifestyle.FHL, I see some parallels between our hs. My h loves anything physical and wants me puffing along right by his side. My being a very active participant during recovery really drew us together. Exciting sex helped. Regarding the needs assessment, I know what floats his boat and that’s where I directed energy. Until I got rid of ow with the big stick, my efforts weren’t enough, but that changed when she was gone. Unlike what I see recommended, I didn’t (I ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT TAKE IT)let him pine...... I forced many discussions about the nature of their relationship. Our counsellor wanted me to let her do that, and it certainly would’ve been better if she could’ve. However, she was no match for my h’s verbal jousting or for his ability to come up with some kind of excuse for just about anything. He could get her off track within 3 minutes almost without fail. Unfortuneately, the more involved I became in pushing along his recovery, the more resentful I became.Once my h realized how much destruction he had caused and how close he came to messing up all our lives, he began to want to please me. He wanted to do anything for me to believe that he is not really a muskrat.I’ve learned a few tricks along the way too. He will move mountains for a little praise and hero worship. However, he usually responds to force like water being scooped with a fork. I’ve learned that I don’t appreciate what I get from him very much when I have to ask for it whether I ask directly or by the techniques I’ve learned.I don’t know how long it’s been for you, but for the longest time my h just couldn’t seem to deal with having been so wrong about ow and their true love. He says it was embarrassing and humiliating to face having been such a fool and having behaved with so little character. Facing up to her manipulation of him and his foolishness made him feel like the loser of all time. Perhaps those feelings may be the reason that your h seems to need to just to go back to the way things were.I think you’re right not to settle. Motivating your h to appreciate and cherish you is tricky. It is my firm belief that all the many hours my h & I spent in very heated discussion were necessary to force him out from behind his many defenses. After days of struggling over the walls, we’d make progress in talking things out. It was then that we’d end up doing things like the needs lists, but it was definately a 10 steps forward 9 steps back approach. About the needs lists and such, we did best by spending a fairly short time separately on the exercises with more time talking about what we came up with. That way we both had to really think. My h has spent precious little time on any of this on his own. That seems pretty typical from what I read here, but it seems so unjust. I deal with a very stubborn man who thinks his old patterns of passive resistance, denial, and selfishness have worked fairly well for many years. If he can’t avoid conflict, he truly believes that the best defense is a strong offense - he attacks hard and fast when he FEELS the least bit threatened.His need to be a hero allows me to get to him when I have the energy and the willingness to play the game to get what I want. I’m just not sure what we have when that’s how we get it.

SHA...Thank You!I reply in greater depth later...but one quick question.Did you ever actually openly consider D or did your wife ever fear you would leave the marriage?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But really the point of this post is the validity of the BIG STICK.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>IMHO, a "BIG STICK" is more likely to get quick results...but the results may or may not be what you want. Therefore (like you, I think) I wouldn't ever play the "I'm outta here" card...I think you don't say it unless you mean it. First, to do otherwise would be manipulative, and second, it has a really high chance of eliciting an "OK, fine" response.So, if leaving is not an option, we work with the twigs instead of big sticks. Besides, if he is willing to chnage bcs he loves me and wants me to be happy, great [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

!!! If he changed only bcs he feared I'd leave, I don't think I'd ever fully trust the change was "real." Besides, twigs grow over time...Kathi

Kathi, great advise and I don't want the impression I would ever play that card. I wouldn't. I guess I am just exploring human nature today.

Dear FHL:Let's see....what can you do? Do you think a reward system would work? Kinda tease him into meeting one of your needs? My H acts like a two-year old whenever I mention that I have a *surprise* for him [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.Example: H wants adoration. You are ready to give him his daily dose, but ooops, wait...where's MY HUG first? Or, how about teasing him with, "Honey I have something for you when you get home from work today, but to get it you need to <fill in blank> me first...(EX:kiss me first, bring me a single red rose first, write down one thing you love about me on a post it note first, etc.). You could also bargain: "You know how you always wanted <blank>? Well, I may just be willing to accomodate you, if you can accomodate me by <fill in blank>....Or take turns....his turn to get a surprise for you and tell you what you need to do to *earn* it. Next time, your turn. Make a particular day of the week *surprise* day and get him in the habit of doing something special for you 1x/week....hey, it's a start...right?Hope this didn't sound too corny. It works for me [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. Last night I snuck downstairs saying I was checking to make sure garage door was down, and placed a tiny "thinking of you card" on the dashboard of his car and taped a sucker (lollipop) to the back of it saying, "I'm a sucker for romance".You think my H will get the hint???? LOL [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.Peace, ~MarieP.S. To those of you in recovery who may happen to see my post here....LOL....couldn't help myself from posting. But, hey, I KNEW FHL was a *safe* post [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited August 08, 2000).]

Hi FHL,Interesting theory, I'm really going to have to think about this one.I wonder if you can relate to these three thoughts:1. If I don't very clearly articulate my thoughts/concerns/worries/needs to my husband, he thinks I don't have any and that everything is fine. This is also known as being clueless.2. My husband also wants me to be happy, but he really wants me to be happy with what he is willing to give easily and conveniently.3. If he is happy with the way things are, my husband assumes that I must be happy with them too. Again, the word is clueless.I also agree with dealing with your needs/desires one at the time instead of overwhelming him with too many things at one time.Just some thoughts that I wanted to share.Peppermint

wesse...whoops somehow I missed your post the first time. Thank you for your input. I have been impressed with your combination of commen sense, intelligence and strength.I like your style. As much as I feel powerless to use a stick within my marriage in my current situation, I would have had no problem picking up the stick you did and using it.My H was incredibly embarrased (even though no one else new) and can't believe it was him that did those things. But it has been over 19 months and he is not one to dwell on things, so I think any residual effects of the affair exist in my mind, only.And why is it they can not choose a "normal" recreational actvity? And does your H have the ability to turn some reasonable activity into something risky? I wish a little adoration worked with H. I have always lavished him with praise. Doesn't seem to do much for him. It is hard to force any issue with H. He is such a skilled great conflict avoider. Anyway, thanks for the wise words!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FaithHopeLove: Did you ever actually openly consider D or did your wife ever fear you would leave the marriage?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We talked about divorce, but never pursued it. We came close to a separation, found an apartment and she was ready to sign a lease and then backed out saying "she couldn't do it because of the kids". She followed that up with "If we didn't have kids, I would have been gone a long time ago!". Of course, that was when she was in a deep fog.I don't think she feared that I would leave the marriage. I told her up front that I was committed to making this work. When confrontation time came around and we discussed the affair, she knew she had to stop any physical stuff with om or I would have left. I think she knew that if the marriage was going to end, it was going to be hanging on her shoulders because I did change and I haven't let up. she now sees the changes as genuine. But, she still can't find that passion for me yet.SHA

Ooops...just read where your H is not big on adoration.Guess I'll need to re-work my idea.How about taking turns picking the recreational activity...the one that gets to choose the activity must also bring a small token of appreciation for the other (???). This way his need is met for recreational activity and your's is met for attention/affection (???--I'm guessing again--don't know what your needs are!!!!)If at first you don't succeed, try, try, again! ~Marie

FHL, THANK GOODNESS my h is not usually a risk taker. He is just restless by nature and loves almost any form of physical recreation from spectator sports to skiing, running, biking, hiking, camping, etc.We've had some really good times hiking, talking by the campfire, and snuggling in the tent - preferably but not usually without the children.Set up the activity to include something really romantic and let him know what a wonderful time you had. Talk about it a lot in anticipation. Afterwards, relish the memory and frame a picture reminder. Find good overnight childcare. Trade off with another couple if necessary. If he wants to go snow skiing, arrange for a nice fire, bottle of wine, and good conversation at night! Good luck.[This message has been edited by wesse (edited August 08, 2000).]

I swear to you all, FHL and I are NOT the same person. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

So imagine my surprise to come here and see a post I could have written...verbatim.Like FHL, I have an H who can't communicate...who's a conflict avoider...who's utterly clueless...who has no empathy...in short, who's a narcissist.Not much you can do to change people.My H is hypersensitive to anything perceived as criticism, so any kind of talking about what I need is out. Forget the "I feel" language, as far as he's concerned, it's criticism, and he always answers such discussions with something along the lines of "I thought we were doing great, do you want to split up?"Not constructive.My H is slightly more romantic than FHL's. He gets me flowers for our anniversary, he tells me he loves me, but doesn't do those "chick things" that women like.So what do I do?I learn to live with less...less sex than I'd like, less romance than I'd like. And I reward him with praise on those rare occasions when he does do something unexpected.I don't know what else to suggest.

Marie, I appreciate all of your ideas, although my H is difficult because he is pretty self contained. Sometimes I hesitate to do cute little things because when he doesn't do cute things back or "get" my cute message, I feel bad....so I am solving my problem, I am adding to my problem.Hey...I picked up on that "safe post" statement. Man, I'm even a goody two shoes in the cyber world. Do you know I never got a "bad white slip" which meant trouble in all of my school years? I was always so good it almost makes you want to throw up. Peppermint: 1. Not only have to tell him, I have to fill inbetween the lines for him, too. 2. Yes. He seems to be unwilling to push the envelope emotionally, although he is exceptionally consistant and loving if I stay within his envelope.3. Yes.You are right about not overwhelming him. SHA...I still need to reread your post and comment...but one more question. I know you wouldn't do this, but after your wife was out of the fog, so to speak and reasonably committed to your marriage but still not meeting your needs...if you would have left or she seriously thought it was possible, do you think she would have snapped into action and she would be meeting more of your needs now. And if I am remembering, you were an OK H, but not price charming, right? Realistically, without your wife's affair or an attempt to exit the marriage, could she have done anything to profoundly change your behaviors in the marriage? Or did it take something as drastic as what happened for you to change?wesse, actually H and I have some very good times together...and laugh about the uncoventional predicaments we have gotten ourselves into. One problem for me is I hate to be cold and I hate to be wet. Cold and wet is completely out. H doesn't mind either.Last year we ended up at a gathering in the middle of the dessert were all but a few of us "normal" folks were wearing fire arms. We had no running water, the shower was outdoors in the open (no I didn't) and when you went to the outhouse you didn't even have to miss the party because it was so weathered it was more like sitting...no squatting...in a cage. At least it cut down on the smell. The nearest phone was at a whore house 20 miles away.

Dazed, OK...sue me for being delusional enough to think that my H can graduate to the world of the clued [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Yes, Dazed H is more romantic and mine H's idea of a good date is described in the above post.However, luckily my H is not super sensitive. It is not like he likes when I take issue with something he says or does, but he is not super defensive either. That I do have on my side, which maybe gives me the hope that if I could only "clue him in" he might be successful.My daughter just called and asked me to straighen H out...they are at a reunion...I'm with old dog. He got my simple suggestion about something they should do all twisted. I think my girls miss me. I serve as interpretor.

FHL, Yuck!Tell us what are your h's 5 best points?

As the world would see him:1. He is extremely intelligent2. He has a gift of explaining a complex technical subject or teaching a skill (he's a ski instructor) in a way that is fun, comprehensive and in no way condescending.3. He is a family man who includes us in everything he does (this of course can be a problem) 4. He is soft spoken, even tempered, completely unassuming, generous and unselfish.5. Whatever he does is done to a high standard in a professional efficient manner.As I see him:We share the same value and belief system and we are unwilling to compromise them (his affair being one exception)We make a particularly dynamic parenting team and a very good partner in life team I know in his own way he is completely devoted to our family, which of course includes me. (I just want to be singled out)He has no use for power of control in the relationship and sees me as a complete equal.He wants me to be happy and he means to support me in all that I do. Does this give you a more complete picture?

SHA...you said a lot in your post.Yet another question...does your wife appreciate what you are giving her? Do you think she feels her needs are being met? It is in giving that we receive. Maybe there is yet another fine line in expecting something in return which nullifies giving freely and expecting something in return because a marriage needs two participants long term.I don't think I do anything that is not dignified. In fact I really don't do much more or less than I did before the affair.Where he gains is that I do more recreationally and encourage him even more, I am more enthusiastic about sex and initiate it more, but it is not like I wasn't available to him before, I just made it a greater priority and expanded my skills, so to speak. And when I am moody, I am do my best to not show it. If there is something bothering me enough that I want resolution on I will bring it up, but otherwise I am warm and upbeat, even if I'm not in the greatest mood. Before the affair I was usually nice, but I maybe was a bit moodier. I will check out the Husband 101 book on my next shopping trip to the big city...which will be soon since it is back to school time. Would it be offensive to highlight it? What is the best suggestion from it?It is always good to hear from you!

Hey FHL, Believe it or not, you're helping me alot by putting all this stuff into words. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I know you wouldn't do this, but after your wife was out of the fog, so to speak and reasonably committed to your marriage but still not meeting your needs...if you would have left or she seriously thought it was possible, do you think she would have snapped into action and she would be meeting more of your needs now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is a tough one to speculate. My gut tells me that leaving wouldn't have helped. My wife is a proud lady. It is very hard for her to admit she's wrong. I doubt that me leaving would have brought any feelings back for me that would encourage her to meet my needs. Her mother and father divorced when she was very young and they have each been married and divorced many times since. Deep down, I think my wife would have let me go because she thought she gave our marriage all she had and I still wasn't meeting her needs very well. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And if I am remembering, you were an OK H, but not price charming, right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's probably a good description. I was better than most H's I knew. We just kept drifting further and further a part. I was totally blind to how much she was hurting on the inside. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Realistically, without your wife's affair or an attempt to exit the marriage, could she have done anything to profoundly change your behaviors in the marriage? Or did it take something as drastic as what happened for you to change?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I think she could have gotten through to me by other means. She never told me she was unhappy in our marriage. She could have told me she felt some distance between us. She could have told me she was starting to feel attracted to another man - that alone would have been enough for me. Unfortunately, she kept things in. Most of her complaints with me were trivial until our big blow up 18 months ago. Of course, this is all specualtion. I would like to think I would have changed if she did some of the things I mentioned, but I'll never know. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yet another question...does your wife appreciate what you are giving her?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Absolutely. She enjoys the attention. I do my best to make her feel special, and wanted, and desired. Sometimes she feels the attention is unjustified (probably guilt on her part). She smiles more now. She is making small steps to meeting my needs. I get hugs and kisses without asking. I got an "I love you" out of the blue a few weeks ago. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Do you think she feels her needs are being met?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes. Unfortunately, some of her needs don't mesh with mine (sex). I think she feels I meet all of her needs that she wants me to meet. It took me a very long time to find out her needs. She wouldn't tell me in fear that her feelings for me would change. So, I set out to find them and in time she allowed me to start meeting them. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where he gains is that I do more recreationally and encourage him even more, I am more enthusiastic about sex and initiate it more, but it is not like I wasn't available to him before, I just made it a greater priority and expanded my skills, so to speak.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'll say it again - your husband is a very lucky man. It has been almost 15 moinths since my wife initiated sex. I have been the initiator and to tell you the truth, I'm tired of intiating. I would like to be desired. My wife will consent if I beg, but I gave that up a couple of months ago. I want a willing and enthusiastic partner. She used to be. We used to have a great sex life. But, at that time, I know she was deeply in love with me. There was no other man in the picture. Now, eventhough she hasn't seen or talked to the om in several months, there is a lingering affect that still keeps her from giving her self to me fully. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I will check out the Husband 101 book on my next shopping trip to the big city...which will be soon since it is back to school time. Would it be offensive to highlight it? What is the best suggestion from it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You know, there is also a Wife 101. I've never read it, but I think it would be a good for both H and W to read ther respective books. I can't pinpoint one item - the book is mostly about doing all the little things we should do. Some examples are "Send her flowers at work for no reason". "Check her cosmetic bag once in a while and if she is out of something, buy it for her". "Make sure her car is full of gas and running properly". "Make her dinner and light some candles". "buy her favorite bath oil and draw a bath for her and let her relax to some nice music". "Take the kids out for an afternoon, and let your wife have some freee time to do what she wants to do". "Tell her what you like best about her". There are tons on little things like these that are so simple, yet they mean so much.God Bless you FHL, SHA

FHL, he sounds like a really special guy. It seems that perhaps he is more physical and you are more spiritual in nature. The needs evaluations and discussions between you 2 could be really interesting.

SHA...you helped me, too. If he read that book I'd have to wear a helmet around so I did not sustain a head injury when he started doing some of those things. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

One exception is he does take the kids. I don't think it is to give me free time, but he is great with the kids.And if I ask him what he likes about me he will say I am nice. He loves that word. If pressed to be specific he says because I am kind to everyone and I am especially nice to our old dog. I guess that is good. I don't think he could put his thoughts of my strengths down in words like I did with him in a previous post. I wish he could.wesse, yes he is a very special man. I have always loved him. That is why this is so maddening. He would be unbelievable if he just could find his emotions and show his emotions...and if he sought a deeper connection. Have you ever taken the Meyer-Briggs personality test?I came out an INFP oh I can't remember the other letters, but the only thing H matched was the introverted. In fact when we read the descriptions, we howled. When it came to describing relationships, it warned each of us about the other! Forgot about that.No wonder we are a bit challenged!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> He would be unbelievable if he just could find his emotions and show his emotions...and if he sought a deeper connection. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Boy, oh boy...I could have written this!!!My H saw his therapist today (he's been going since April, when he finally broke down and admitted he was depressed. Apparently she told him that his head worked great, but he was keeping his emotions under lock and key, and that his task was to learn to unlock them. I KNEW I liked this therapist [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

!!!(I've seen her once last week, prep for going to see her [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

together

for the first time next week... )

So how did your H react to his therapist. Did he agree?

Actually, after he told me that, he sorta changed the subject [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. I told him she had, at one point when I was talking to her, stopped me and told me I was "blocking" and "answering with my head" and to stop it...asked him did she ever do that with him. Yes. That opended the conversation back up and I said she seemed almost scarily perceptive. He agreed. So, he never actually said she was right, but I infer he thinks she is. It's funny, we talk a fair amount about emotional things, but the way it happens, I talk and he agrees or disagrees. I feel kind of like the emotional "mouthpiece" of the realtionship...So, I think she is a great therapist for him/us...I am looking forward to seeing her together next Friday. I'm also a bit scared...though there isn't any reason to be. I just think she is good at seeing thru defenses, and hey, I like mine as well as the next guy!!!Kathi

Hi Guys, Being one of the people that FHL cited as using a big stick, I just want to add my own cautions, and a little background since our beloved profiles don't work.1) My husband left me 7 times over a period of Aug 98- Jan00, I Plan A'ed for 18 months. He was welcome to come home at ANY time the first 6 times.2) The 7th time I was all out of love, read lovebank in the red. His relationship with the OW had been over for 3 months...he didn't want to be married to or live with ME. My giving up was not a "manuever" or "technique". I was hurt & sick to death of the situation repeating endlessly and I wanted out, pretty much at any cost.3) I rather messily embarked on a new relationship with a male friend, served D papers.4) At this same time my H hit the 2 year mark from when his affair began, the time at which Dr. Harley says WS can begin to "wake up". H realized what he was losing because I treated him to "this is what divorce will be like, you won't be my friend, you'll be my former husband." The kids no longer had any faith in his promises, either, though the younger one wanted him back in the home.5) My H also began to take his anti-depressants routinely. He also hit bottom and turned his life over to God, began going to counseling, men's Bible study and working with a male prayer partner. He used Plan A on me.6) April 00 he rented a home. I realized that I was losing him. Initiated "no contact" with the OM, who didn't encourage me to backslide.7) May 00 my last contact with OM led to Guard beginning to stay at our home.8) Jul 00 reconnection Honeymoon in Mexico without kids. Went well [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

9) This week, Aug00 he's moving out of his home.So, (don't try this at home, kids) this was not a quick fix at a rate of 6-8 months. And quite honestly, for a time, the marriage was lost...I nearly lost my husband and now we both have pain/trust issues...but I made my own choices. We're BOTH in the marriage because we've chosen it over other, known options.Big Stick or circumstances or just dumb luck? ------------------ Lor "Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Lor, When you look at the history, your H held the Big Stick until you used it in January. Then you started passing it off to one another.Bury the stick...or use put it in the fire place.I am in no way recommending The Big Stick theory, either.Although it does seem to motivate. Maybe those of us that don't have a Big Stick or don't use our Big Stick have less chance to see sudden dramatic enthusiastic changes.Maybe just knowing this makes the crawl a little easier.

"By a Big Stick, I mean the ability and willingness to dole out serious consequences for a spouse's actions or lack of action."I respond to you as a recipient of the "big stick." Since my wife left me it has been very difficult for me to figure out what I have done to cause this and what to do to fix it. By dispensing with joint counseling and negotiating, we now have an ocean between us. Maybe that is what she wants. If you do not want this, try to use more constructive approaches.I am glad to see you are talking about 100% commitment to your mate and the marriage. While this should bring out the best in a spouse, some may take advantage of it. I do not think you can underestimate the importance of asking for what you want with love and sweetness. This is for both spouses! It gives a preview of how good the marriage can be with consideration.Remember that you are married to an adult. Train the children. Show respect for your spouse by NOT putting him back in training. ------------------ MRB