I don't believe this works - sorry - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I haven't been here long. I think I'm even still a jr. member. But, I have come to some conclusions after reading off and on here for about a year.This stuff doesn't work.Yes, some of you will tell me you are success stories, and true, some of you are, I guess. But it seems to me that the VAST majority of you are NOT! And that's so sad! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I am beginning to think that a marriage CANNOT survive cheating. There is too much pain, too much to get over, too much anger. Thousands lurk here, we are told. Of you thousands, how many can claim success? And I mean, real, true success. I don't mean to point anyone out, truly, but there are those WS's who fall back to the OP, don't love their spouse but stay with them out of duty, and BS's who still want vengence, haven't had sex in years, still don't trust their spouse to even go to the store alone. That is not success to me.I'm sorry, and I really don't want to offend anyone. I agree that Plan A is nice, helps out both personally and the relationship for awhile (if you can keep it up FOREVER), and that meeting EN's is important. But besides that, I just don't see it.Again, I am sorry if I hurt anyone with this post. It's just how I see things.EB

Sorry

[This message has been edited by heartache (edited August 29, 2000).]

EB,I would be curious what your definetion of success is? I think that if you use all of Harleys principles and all your troubles dont disappear, you should label your marriage a failure. I guess I am just curious what your definetion of success is and when do you label it a failure. Define failure also.Scarecrow [This message has been edited by Scarecrow (edited August 28, 2000).]

Thank you heartache, and I'm sorry for your pain too!and Good question scarecrow... I don't think true success is possible, because success to me would mean a marriage based on trust, respect, passion and a history of sticking together through the hard times. You know what I've found out? The betrayed spouse NEVER EVER EVER EVER forgets the pain of infidelity. NEVER. He/she can rebuild, but it will always be with the rememberence of the infideity. No matter what anyone does, says, acts like. No matter WHAT.Failure is this: a marriage that is filled with pain, or held together by a sense of loyalty ONLY. Staying together for the children is failure, just as staying together for money, or convenience is. I don't believe that is a marriage. I'm sure everyone else would agree with me there about my idea of failure, yet many here do JUST THAT. They grasp at the straws left in their marriage and pray to God that love will return for both. Some people hang on for YEARS to a marriage when the other partner let go long ago. That's failure to me. I don't understand how anyone could want a marriage like that when there is someone else out there who could love you without cheating on you.EB

My first husband cheated on me with 4 different women in the space of about 2 months--right after we got married. They were all one night stands except for one, who was a co-worker, and this one, he talked about her constantly, and I just listened with interest and cheerfulness, having no idea. He denied having sex with any woman until I had solid proof.When I found out about it (I had just turned 21 and was a newly wed) I put him through the wringer. I knew nothing about marriage, let alone how to overcome an infidelity, or a string of infidelities, as the case may be. I did everything mean and hateful I could think of. I mocked him. I yelled. I screamed. I called his mother and told her what a piece of dirt he was. I left him, then I started going out with his best friend (who told me about the affairs) to get back at him.(My first husband and I had a casual, playmate friendship that we called marriage. As long as there were parties and places to go have fun together, then we were good to go. We had no problems whatsoever, because that's all we expected of one another. Just a good time and recreation.)Can you believe, within a couple of months of finding out, I was totally over it? In fact, after punishing him real good, I wrote him a letter and said "Okay, I'm done. Let's put this behind us and have a baby." (Dumb. I wanted a baby just because I wanted a baby--I didn't know what parenthood entailed, but I learned!) Then I went back to him, and we did just that. I forgave and forgot, completely. And he never cheated again. Never entered my mind after that. Never even mentioned it.Yes, the marriage did end five years later, but HIS infidelity was not even a factor in the end. Not for me, and not for him. It's just that he wanted to continue his fun and playful lifestyle--but I was "growing up" and saw that children had to be fed and bills had to be paid. I turned into a "grouch."So yes, you CAN get over an infidelity. Some, quite easily. I think it involves how long you were married, how resilient (or how vengeful) or wise (or naive) you are in each case. And how much love and commitment you have invested in the relationship.Not the end of the story. . .I left HIM, H#1, for another guy. While I did not have sex with this person (for years, I denied this as being an affair, but it was) I was done being married to this lazy dude and wanted to move on. I was dumped, burned good and crying, into the arms of H#2.I loved H#2 with all my heart and soul. He was a dream come true for me. He was very hard to get along with, I'll grant that, but I just saw it as a challenge. Everyday was a challenge. I worked SO hard at being the perfect wife for him, every day, in every way. I was grown up by now, and being forced to mature even more by my difficult but very much desirable relationship with H#2.So now that H#2 has had an affair, I am devestated, confused, regretful that I didn't do more, angry, and yes, at times, very hopeless. I wonder if we will ever reunite, ever get over this and be happy. I want this so bad, and at the same time, I know that neither of us will ever forget. It will be a lit ember for the rest of our lives, even if we do get back together.I also blame myself for what I did to H#1, and though I know full well that God does not "get revenge," I reflect on the ending my first marriage and keep thinking that I am getting my just reward and being taught a sound lesson. I can't help thinking it.But you are right. Some get over it, but many do not. It depends on the circumstances and factors that caused the affair. It depends upon the stage of life that the people involved are at, and their personal beliefs.I think that having a solid testimony of Christ and His teachings of love and loyalty are the only things that keep me holding on, personally. And if many people felt the same willingness to forgive, (and forgive themselves) out of pure love, it would be a whole different ballgame.

energizer_bunny,So why do you keep coming here? To let people know that you can't see that you possibly did anything wrong in your marriage to cause this? That you're just a helpless victim? That you were the perfect spouse that knew exactly how to fulfill the other's need? To let people know that you aren't a strong enough person to realize where some of the blame lies? To let everyone know that you have nothing but a negative outlook on life and can't forgive someone for a mistake? Even if you are partially responsible for it?Just curious. Don't know you or your situation. Sounds like you have some pent up anger and frustration in your life, and it may not be because of a cheating spouse.I do agree with your defination of success and failure, but if people never come to grips with themselves, their entire life will be a failure. Infidelity or not.You may either want to see a therapist, or a different one if you are, or try picking up the good book.

It is always difficult when you have invested so much in a relationship and become vulnerable to a host of actions that your spouse may do to hurt you.The ultimate betrayal for most married women is Infidelity. Oh the anguish cannot be banished. But banish it you must for your own sake. Or it will gnaw at your heart and soul and you will never see happiness and peace again. I admit I am still at the very RAW stage and can only envision at this time the LIBERATION I will feel when I FORGIVE completely.I really didn't want to forgive because I didn't want to free WS from the guilt. But the truth is WS usually feel the guilt but not the PAIN. It is good to recognise the pain - oh it's impossible to go through a day without that sickness in your heart that makes living so tough and the world so unbearably distant.I know my life has changed forever, whether I remain in this marriage or leave. It is the inner surgery I have to do to purge out the tormentors that are infesting my whole being and life, affecting the mental, emotional, social, spiritual, and physical. I DO MYSELF the great favour by FORGIVING and letting go and getting my own happy self back, albeit with scars still raw in my heart.I am not saying I have succeeded - far from it! I am trying, and coming here to post and share is one way to recognise that some people have somehow managed to get something positive back into their lives whatever the outcome.I am twice married, married my first H when I was very young. I was able to forgive much easier with first H because he was an abandoned and abused orphan whom I married out of sheer pity because he said I was the only one who could ever make him happy. The marriage was abusive. He had little respect for women and admitted he was selfish because throughout his life he had to fend for himself and there was no one to turn to. He started having affairs because (I think) he just wanted to now that he has lost his virginity in marriage. He wanted to sow his wild oats. Our marriage became a 'blanc' marriage and I was kept as a 'trophy' wife. Strangely, I was not hurt because I realised he was not successful in dealing with his past hurts and the root of bitterness is so ingrained in him, he will never be happy no matter what. The As were NOT PERSONAL. I left because I saw the situation as HOPELESS - I was not equipped to help change him - it would take forever. There was no children then.My second H and his A sent my spiralling down into depression because I had to make it WORK for the sake of my baby. It is sad and sometimes I think pathetic because I don't believe in my H or marriage anymore. The corner stone on which the institution of marital bliss was built has been violated and destroyed - I will never get back the same marriage. As my pastor puts it "your marriage is dead and buried in the grave. We have to remove the tombstone to enable the marriage to resurrect". What is the tombstone in my marriage?Honestly, I feel a lot like you about staying in a marriage that has been inexpicably defiled.I think about the first chance I can get to divorce H. I think about the happiness and freedom I will get. But H believes that his place is next to me to help me heal and if I leave, I leave with tonnes of painful baggage and unresolved hurts.It is true that I am staying for my baby's sake. It's true that I feel horrible because all I really want is my happy pre-A past back. But if I can lay down my life so that my baby can have a complete unit, I will try. BUT there will be no more second chances for H! I have also closed my heart to him -he will remain forever, if not for a really long time, the parent of my child, not my love, not my H. That is how I deal with it . That is like my 'upperhand' in this situation because I can choose within my limited choices (within the marriage) to 'disown' him as my H - to 'punish' him for his A and to make him recognise that what he had done was so damagingly wrong.A lot of H cannot understand how an A can affect a woman's self esteem so much and that As are tantamount to destroying a man's respect for his wife and undermining her as a woman.I have more to say if you like but I hope you continue to post to get more perspectives on how to cope to how to be alive again. We are all trying the best we know how and this forum is so helpful in uttering the unresolved hurts we find so difficult to rid ourselves of.I hope you are better today. Chins up for a while - take a little break.

I am sorry for all of the pain you are feeling and I share it. My marraige is deteriorating swiftly and I never had a clue. Just I love you one day....and there's nothing we can do the next.But I think there are real success stories here. There are marraiges that are made better and there are people who, though they have not saved their marraiges, have suceeded in saving themselves.What I mean by that, is that they have learned a lot about themselves, and chosen to grow....Relationships are hard work...all of them, and it takes two. We are all responsible for 100% of 50% of any relationship we have.I think there are various reasons that affairs occur....We talk about emotional needs not being met, but when you read the information regarding affairs...you also must concider all the factors. Needs change. Many times the changing needs are not communicated. Some people have needs that they cannot even articulate, and continue to search outside of themselves to find that "thing" to make them happy... Sometimes it is simply the lack of protection, or at least not recognizing the need to protect oneself during a vulnerable time.I know I have learned a lot about relationships after reading the MB info and reading the posts of all of us going through this.And in the end...it does come down to human nature.... Human nature.... It is never perfect..I believe that we should always be able to look at the other person, no matter how heinous we view their crime, and see ourselves in their eyes. We are all capable of committing the same.The real success seems to come from detaching ourselves from the beliefs that we cling onto regarding this life and the people in it and having faith. Faith in ourselves, faith in the people around us, and faith in God's word.

Well, it worked for us. To be successful though it has to evolve into a way of life, not a "plan". Kind of like dieting, it may work but unless you change your eating habits you'll gain the weight back. Within afew months after H and I reconciled I no longer thought about Plan A or whatever. We were communicating on a new level and were much better able to meet each others needs. That's what it's all about. Things have to truly CHANGE. Yes, the pain of the betrayal will always be there, but it gets less and less. We are closer than we ever were before and it is wonderful.

Hello Bernzini,Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. All the ways you handled your first h's cheating is what I did. Mine is more recent, and I don't think I did right, but it is what I did. I didn't go out with his best friend, but I did meet someone on the Internet who made me feel better, and I know how wrong that was too. Actually, one came before the other. Oh, I'm not making sense. I knew something was wrong. I thought my h might be having an affair. I was afraid and didn't want to ask him so I let it go on. I then had an emotional affair with a man on the internet. Then I realized for sure my h was having an affair. It was a big mess. Still is.Thank you for giving me hope that infidelity can be healed. Still Praying,Exactly what did I do that personally offends you so? I wasn't mean to you, but you act like I was.To answer your main question, I come here because I am in pain. Why do you come here?As far as the rest of your questions, they are to provoke a fight. Sorry, I have enough of that in my life. Won't go there.Hi weep,This is a lovely post. Thank you for taking the time to take me seriously. I have been betrayed, and I have been a betrayer in an internet emotional affair. I am still trying to get over what both of us did, and my marriage is still over. I don't think there's enough time in the world to 'get over it'. I will continue to read (I have been for a year now) but posting is difficult. It was scary to post this, but of course I do have the opportunity to say how I really feel without looking at anyone. People like the above responder have no problem attacking, which is why I hestitate to post in the first place. Take care everyone. And I guess I should say that if you can heal your marriage (and it seems that a FEW really can!) then I really wish you well. But if you are like me and my spouse, and can't heal it, I also wish you well, maybe even moreso.EB [This message has been edited by energizer_bunny (edited August 29, 2000).]

Hi tootrusting,Thank you for taking the time to reply and for being kind.I am sorry for all of the pain you are feeling too.As far as the "real success stories" it takes time to see how things pan out. I have read lostva's postings and she appears to have a success story. My problem is this - she will be in Plan A for the rest of her life. She seems like a strong woman, and a very nice woman too. But can she Plan A forever? She can never bring up the HELL her h caused her? She has to cry alone? She can't let the triggers get to her? That is not a marriage TO ME. I am not a mean person, but I have feelings and they are important. I just cannot imagine keeping up a Plan A forever. But that's maybe just me.Re: The real success seems to come from detaching ourselves from the beliefs that we cling onto regarding this life and the people in it and having faith. Faith in ourselves, faith in the people around us, and faith in God's word.I beleive this.fairydust,Congratulations on being a success story! I think you are one of very few, that's all. And to touch on what I said above - "it worked for us" means exactly what as far as what you will do to keep the marriage going? I don't mean that at all meanly. I'm serious. Are you Plan A your h for the rest of your life? Is he you? To use your diet thought, yes, you have to change your habits, but one time of binging won't get you fat. It takes time. One time of losing it with your spouse could throw him back into the arms of someone else. That's eggshells for you. Do you feel that way, or am I way off base?I am happy for your success, by the way.EB

EB:You wonder why you might be "attacked" with a differing opinion? You post on a site dedicated to the MarriageBuilder's philosophy, and post:This stuff doesn't work.Sorry, but your statistics are off. This stuff does work. It works with a surprising percentage of people. It works better when you're not in the "dire" situations that most people find themselves in here (this board tends to be a last resort for many SEVERELY troubled marriages). But even then, these techniques work for many people. Much better than taking the tact: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>a marriage CANNOT survive cheating<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which would give you a 0% success rate.I'd suggest to you that you might find it best to do counseling; either with one of the Harley's (888-639-1639) or with a local counselor who understands the methodology here and has success. It's not always easy to step back and "self-learn" these techniques when you're immersed in a seriously troubled marriage. I know that I've gotten a lot out of my counseling with Steve Harley. And as bright as I consider my self, and with my ability to "emotionally remove" myself from my situation to analyze it---I know that I couldn't have done it without his help and guidance.I suggest that you REALLY use the program, to it's fullest benefit, employing a counselor. And then judge for yourself if you're getting the results you want. Until you do, you really aren't at a point where you can judge.

energizer_bunny,You did nothing to provoke me, and I wasn't trying to pick a fight. It just sounds as though you are very stressed with life. I feel that whether or not the concepts that are here work is based on personal commitment and understanding of the situation. I don't feel that this takes the co-operation of both spouses, just one. If you can never truly forgive someone for their actions with understanding and compassion, then an internal negative attitude will lead to an external negative behavior, and the concept will fail. It is impossible to ever forget what has happened, but the past cannot be changed, and to go forward in life it must be released. If you decide that his actions cannot be forgiven, we are all given the freedom of choice, then you must move on without him. Nothing I have read says that we must pretend that things haven't happened, only that we must determine whether or not we are willing to work on the marriage. If you are willing to accept things as history, and are willing to work on the marriage, then the plans here are some of the best advice around.Again, I feel that the secret to success is based on an intimate personal decision. One cannot just decide "Well, I'll try plan A for a while and see what happens." A half-hearted effort leads to a half-hearted outcome. If you cannot accept things as they are and be willing to make them better, your spouse will ultimately pick up on these feelings and your efforts will go unnoticed and won't be productive.Think back to when you were dating. What if when doing things together, you were always thinking "I hate you for what you've done to me, for the ways that you've hurt me and destroyed my trust, and I will never forgive you." Subconsciously, your body language would have portrayed this and he probably wouldn't have wanted to see you very often, bad vibes.Again, it's up to you what you want to do in your marriage. If you don't want it to work, then don't try. If you do, then it's all about attitude, as coming to grips with what has happened will only make you a better person. Trust can come back, but you must allow it to.To answer your question, I am here to learn. To vent frustration at my situation and see what others are doing. I am also here to learn about other's thoughts on life who may have the same past experiences as my wife. Yes, she left. Yes, she's been gone 2 months. No, she isn't home or hasn't said that she wants to work at this. I don't see this as a failure, it took me quite a bit of time to get my head on straight and change my attitude. I may have already seen changes since I started that, or I may be grasping. Only time will tell, but I do know that for the first several weeks, my attitude of resentmen and bitterness as to her walking out didn't help the situation.Failure is success, if we learn from it.[This message has been edited by Still Praying (edited August 29, 2000).]

I disagree with you, Energizer Bunny.The stuff works.1) I think of Plan A as really loving someone, you don't demand, you don't express unhealthy anger, you don't make righteous judgments, you don't make thoughtless decsions regarding them (all defined as Lovebusters). Will I Plan A for the rest of my life...hopefully, no reason not to, since I've been at it the better part of 2 1/2 years, but, I am also fortunate that my H is now as enthusiastic about building our marriage, so WE also add the 4 rules of succesful marriage--protection, care, honesty, spending time together & policy of joint agreement (some work to do on that one, but we've begun).2) The WS can truly turn around and be a full partner of the marriage. I did 11 years ago. My H is now. Since he's been home this last time, he's been out of town for days at a time, he's worked nights, he's simply done "stuff" where he's out. He carries his cell phone so I can call. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, sometimes he calls me. Accountability for time & contact with OP is a wonderful gift, and the one I find most healing. I now have very little anxiety about where he is--and I was almost to stalking at a year ago. We don't struggle with walking on eggshells, though we've been there. We do struggle to communicate in new & positive ways without hitting old triggers. We've known each other 19 years, believe me, we know and in some cases DESIGNED the other person's hot buttons.3) Does the BS forget. Not for awhile. The key to alleviating the pain, at least for me, was forgiveness. Total, piece by piece, day by day. The wounds are a bit like being hit with a "toe popper" land mine. You are lucky & survive and first staunch the gaping, bleeding wounds, then as days & weeks pass, the scrapnel works its way to the surface and you deal with that in a healing manner as well. Just like a real, physical scar, it's there but you don't "see" it after awhile. I have a 3 inch scar on my neck, I have long hair, it doesn't show...but it causes me no pain and anyone it "bothers" is not worth my time. Same with your infidelity scars...anyone who says "How can you be with your WS after the way they treated you?" None of their business. It becomes just a memory once you let the wound heal.4) You say you don't have patience. For MB to work, you do need patience, you need love, you need strength of character, you need to know who you are and what you've got inside you, AND you need to let time pass. My patience has developed immensely because of the past 2 1/2 years, I'm also more thoughtful, kinder, self-assured and confident. That is the benefit of Plan A to me. And, my marriage is on track...a success. We were very close to not making it, I'd served D papers, and if my H's behavior had not changed, there wasn't any more I could have done or, at that point, was willing to do, my goals of sticking out as long as I could, with a mental, unstated 18 months, were met. He then discovered Plan A [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. After experiencing Plan A I believe it DOES work--and there was another relationship involved for me, so it was just as complicated for him as it was for me doing Plan A.Personal success takes 1. Marital success takes 2, but one can hold it at the point of reconciation being possible--that's really what Plan A, then B is about.5) It isn't fair that the BS who is hurt is usually the one who Plan A's. Nope. Not fair at all, but it is the action/decision/choice/option of an adult who knows "fair" means very little in real life.------------------ Lor "Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Well, hello there K,Re: You wonder why you might be "attacked" with a differing opinion? You post on a site dedicated to the MarriageBuilder's philosophy, and post: This stuff doesn't work.NOBODY deserves to be attacked for their thoughts. Period.Did I use statistics? I didn't think I did. Re: I'd suggest to you that you might find it best to do counseling; either with one of the Harley's (888-639-1639) or with a local counselor who understands the methodology here and has success. I know that I've gotten a lot out of my counseling with Steve Harley. Um, I know this is your mantra, and I appreciate that you feel they've helped you in your marriage. Don't take this wrong K, but the fact that you are happy in a sexless marriage is sad to me. It's not that you don't want it, you DO, which is what makes it sad. Remember, I have been reading here for a year, and I do respect the progress you've made. But I wouldn't call it a success.Dear Still Praying,Thank you for the thoughtful reply.Yes, I am "very stressed with life." More than you or anyone else knows. But aren't we all? Re: I don't feel that this takes the co-operation of both spouses, just one. Oh ya, I've heard of those books with titles like "Saving your Marriage Alone",and I guess it CAN be done. Re: If you can never truly forgive someone for their actions with understanding and compassion, then an internal negative attitude will lead to an external negative behavior, and the concept will fail. Hmmm... well, I guess that I think it's possible to forgive but since we never forget the marriage is defiled still. I know some will say that triggers lesson and soon the good will outweigh the bad. I personally have never met a couple where the infidelity is out in the open and they are happy, or even close to it, UNLESS a sacrifice is made by the betrayed. Re: One cannot just decide "Well, I'll try plan A for a while and see what happens." A half-hearted effort leads to a half-hearted outcome. If you cannot accept things as they are and be willing to make them better, your spouse will ultimately pick up on these feelings and your efforts will go unnoticed and won't be productive.100% agreed.Re: To answer your question, I am here to learn. To vent frustration at my situation and see what others are doing. Me too, and I felt attacked for the vent, if you will.Lor (Lor),Yes, I see you as somewhat of a success story, but only time will truly tell. Did you think you were a success story the last time you got back together? Or the time before that? Again, I am not trying to be mean-spirited at all. I respect you and all that you are doing to repair your marriage. Re: 1) I think of Plan A as really loving someone, you don't demand, you don't express unhealthy anger, you don't make righteous judgments, you don't make thoughtless decsions regarding them (all defined as Lovebusters). Uh huh. So, you think that you can keep this up for the rest of your lives? No matter what? Re: 2) The WS can truly turn around and be a full partner of the marriage. And what happened after that to make him go astray? Or you? I am not trying to yank your chain here, I'm trying to understand. You did a "perfect plan a" and he went back to the latest OW. What makes you think it will be different this time? Honestly.Re: 3) Does the BS forget. Not for awhile. Did you ever forget about the other OW? Be honest.Re: 4) You say you don't have patience. For MB to work, you do need patience, you need love, you need strength of character, you need to know who you are and what you've got inside you, AND you need to let time pass. How much time, would you say? Again, I'm asking sincerely.Re: Personal success takes 1. Marital success takes 2Totally flies in the face of what Still Praying says. Wonder which one is right?Re: 5) It isn't fair that the BS who is hurt is usually the one who Plan A's. Nope. Couldn't agree more.Okay, on to another work day. Just wondering if my marriage could survive this. I still don't think so, but you've all given me food for thought.Thank you.EB

EB,Like I said before shortly after H and I reconciled I ceased thinking about Plan A. Actually I didn't even know about Plan A until AFTER we got back together, but I was using similar methods from a christion marriage book and a minister who was counseling me. H has no idea Plan A or Plan B exists. We both realized how important communication is, what each others needs are, where we both went went wrong earlier in the marriage. We don't live by a "plan" we just live. We treat each other with respect and love, go out of our way to compliment each other and do nice things and it is wonderful. that is the way a marriage should be. It's not walking on eggshells or being forced, it's just the way we are now.While I was in "Plan A" or my version of it it was VERY difficult at times. That's why it doesn't work for a lot of people. My H and I NEVER discuss the affair, I NEVER throw it in his face. That is the kind of person I am though. You can only beat a dead horse for so long in my eyes. If I had made a horrible mistake, was very remorseful, doing everything in my power to make up for it (all of which H has done) I wouldn't want it thrown in my face forever. H has been beyond reproach since the EMR, he has treated me like a queen. Ironically I probably have the best H of any of my friends now. He is happy, I am happy. Yes, I still have triggers (less and less) but there is nothing he can do about that. It's something I have to deal with, he can't help me with that. If you don't have the kind of personality to deal with post EMR in a certain way then nothing will work. Once you reconcile and the A is over if you still keep thinking in terms of "Plans" you are probably doomed. One hting to keep in mind about is that I NEVER wanted to know details about the affair, it was irrelevant. What mattered was working on us. It was OW who insisted on telling me all about it, that's where my triggers came from.P.S. - The main reason I still lurk on these boards is to share my experiences with others and to let others know that there is hope. I had this done for me by several people while I was going through it and it really helped. I want to do the same for others. [This message has been edited by fairydust (edited August 29, 2000).]

Good points, folks...(WARNING! LONG RAMBLE AHEAD!)EB, My H DuncanMac & myself are another success story... took a very long time to get here, and involved my infidelity (plus all the emotional fallout that goes with it) many years ago, plus DM's brief affair 2 yrs ago (more of that fallout).We've spent an enormous amount of time learning about each other and the dynamics of our marriage. This is something that has to happen sooner or later in ANY marriage. To us, packing in an investment like that without wringing EVERY drop of effort and committment out of ourselves was just not an option. Even less of one once we had kids.So guess what? Eventually everything "gelled". All the pieces flying around for so long fell into place. NOW we're enjoying the fruits of all our hard work. We're having more fun, laughing more, teasing more, talking more, [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

, than we ever have. Are there scars? Sure. Who gets through life without 'em? We've inflicted plenty of them on each other. But that's *over* now. We've learned it's a lot more rewarding to care for each other and be nice to each other and ENJOY each other, than to punish each other for past mistakes. Plan A isn't just an artificial construct; it's a way of life. The "two Lors" have put it very well.Affairs aren't only about betrayal. They're about deep unhappiness, DEEP confusion. The betrayer isn't addicted to their OP, so much as they are to how they feel about *themselves* in the OP's company. In my opinion, an affair often happens because there's something inside the betrayer screaming to get out, something they've ignored or stuffed down or discounted. They're in the throes of some kind of emotional upheaval that will lead to a "growth spurt". It's almost like a volcano erupting under great pressure. It ain't pretty, but it's gonna blow!This is where all the "soulmate" stuff comes from. The betrayer is tapping into something *essential* within themselves, something they absolutely must integrate into their lives ('course, nobody knows this AT THE TIME, more's the pity... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

). You've all the heard the expression "an inch deep and a mile wide"? Well, an affair is an inch wide and a mile deep. The mistake the betrayer makes, when blissfully enjoying that mile, is thinking that the bliss will carry over into every aspect of his life, *as long as the OP is there* - in other words, the OP has been accorded magical powers to make everything all right forever.Well, we all know that ain't so. I think this is where a lot of the confusion and disagreement over the question "Is it 'REAL' or is it a 'FANTASY'?" comes from. In my opinion - it's both. In some way, the affair has given the WS permission to be "more himself" (we've often heard that, right? And I felt it in my own affair). But it's only in certain, narrow ways (an inch wide), while the rest of his/her everyday life (the mile wide)is forgotten.The Harley methods are all about understanding that a WS is, for all intents and purposes, temporarily insane. And that most of them will figure that out sooner or later. Remember - *it's not about the OP* - it's about the WS blowing an emotional gasket that has been building up pressure. And statistics bear out the fact that very few affairs result in marriage - even fewer in a successful marriage.Plan A is a way of dealing with an insane spouse in a way which minimizes the potential to drive them away. Does it succeed in saving the marriage every time? Nope. But I'll wager that in those that *do* survive, it's been a factor. Part of the "Affair Syndrome" is that the WS demonizes the spouse: they're unreasonable, mean, grouchy, frigid, can't understand me, no fun, blah blah blah.... a good Plan A defuses and invalidates these demonized opinions.Alright, I've been rambling here...(WHERE was I going with this?? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

). The upshot is: do you want to save your marriage to this person? Do you think the "bare bones", the basic structure, is good? Were things good before your spouse turned into an alien? Then this is your best shot. Wait it out. Don't give them ammunition to further their "cause". Give them as much "food for thought" as you can...hmmmm...wow, she's being really reasonable...and *nice*!...I can't believe I'm having fun with her... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

(meanwhile OP is becoming a B*tch On Wheels...reality DOES have a way of creeping in).At some point in recovery, the BS has to be able to separate the person from the acts. The acts were horrible; the person who eventually re-emerges from the madness is not. It *is* possible to do - and it's neccessary. What is the priority here - holding a grudge or healing the marriage? Keep your eye on the horizon & keep putting one foot in front of the other. I've learned it's the only way to get anywhere. There's no magic formula. It just *happens* sooner or later if you keep trying to do the right things.------------------ ~suse~ Rome wasn't built in a day.

eb: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Um, I know this is your mantra, and I appreciate that you feel they've helped you in your marriage. Don't take this wrong K, but the fact that you are happy in a sexless marriage is sad to me. It's not that you don't want it, you DO, which is what makes it sad. Remember, I have been reading here for a year, and I do respect the progress you've made. But I wouldn't call it a success.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why is "being happy in a sexless marriage" sad to you? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that---it's no worse that "being happy in a marriage where your spouse doesn't earn $1,000,000/year"?So, I'm much happier in my marriage now than I was three years ago. Proof that this stuff works. Proof that it is "successful". And as others have intonated, proof that it can work (perhaps not to perfection) if only one spouse is practicing the philosophy.Now, "being happy in a sexless marriage" is not the same as "being happy that your marriage is sexless". It's completely different, and I'm sure you're aware of it. I'm not happy that my marriage is sexless---far from it. And I'm committed to doing what I can to turn it around.And thankfully, my wife has come around to this point of view, and is now counseling with Jennifer Harley to work on her issues surrounding this.As you indicated, you see progress in my situation. Positive progress. I do too---otherwise, I wouldn't be here working on "spreading the word". I'd agree with you in that we're not a complete success yet---I'd call this more of a work in progress. But we're 90% of the way there, and I'm pretty confident that we'll get the remaining 10%.In the big picture, if I do a risk/benefit analysis of all my options, I've been way ahead using the MB system than anything else. I don't have problems with the "pain" of the affair---it really is a rare occurance when I think of it in a negative (painful) light. I have a beautiful family intact---something that would have been unacheivable with divorce. I have a wife who does love me---there's the issue of not being "romantically" in love with me, but that's something that is fixable. Big gains. Not much risk. What other options would you have me consider???When I see someone in your situation complaining about how rotten this situation is (and it is), and how you can't see a way around it---I really feel that you'd benefit from the counseling. You're stuck, you don't truly understand how to employ these techniques, and you could use some coaching to get out of the rut. So make the call...

I've read this thread a few times this morning and it helped me to figure out a few things. The words "success" "failure" "betrayer" and "betrayed" have always bothered me. 1. They are labels. 2. They describe black and white. Absolutes. At least in my mind.Life is mostly gray areas. Marriage is full of gray areas. I will probably never call me or my marriage a success. It is a work in progress. Plan A is a process. A work in progress. Do I check the books to make sure things comply with Plan A? NOT. To me Plan A is about doing the best I can in every area of my life. How to treat others in a way that will improve the relationship. It's a way of life. Do I share my feelings about H's affair with him? Yes. He insists that I do that. Does Plan A say that I can't do that?My H has turned into a wonderful man. Better than he ever was before the affair.I still hurt. I still have bad memories. They are not attached to the man he is now. That is part of forgiving. You hurt from the memories. But you have to separate the person from the acts. If I left him I would still have bad memories. He wants to help me get through them.Our marriage is far from perfect. I am far from perfect. I am not a success. I am a woman who has learned a huge amount from this forum and Dr. Harley's teachings. A woman who loves her H enough to work through this with him.If I lived in a black an white world...maybe then I would be able to think in terms of "success". I live with the grays...one day at a time.

energizer bunny,Just a couple of thoughts from my own experience (in process but what I would call successful following the MB principles).Plan A is my new way of life. When I came to this site I was hopeless and desperate. I was pretty dazed for a couple of weeks but as soon as I pulled it together I started to follow the MB principles and, over time, my relationship with my H has improved considerably. Plan A is really just how we ought to treat our spouses anyway! It surely describes how I want to be treated.Re. the pain and never forgetting - at least for me the pain IS diminishing as time goes on. And my H's EA will probably never be erased from my memory, but I think of it only occasionally now as compared to every minute of every day shortly after D-day. I do believe that forgiveness and prayer has had a lot to do with the release of pain, in addition to the improved relationship with my H.It sounds as though your pain has turned into bitterness. There's a book called "Betrayal's Baby" by Bunny Wilson (I think that is the author's name) that is helpful in getting past bitterness.God bless you.periwinkle

I can only speak from my own experience on this. Whether or not this can work depends on you and your H's willingness to be open and utilize the methods. No, it's not easy at all! Nothing excuses what my H has done. NOTHING! But let's face it, I've broken my vows too. Either Lostva or Lor made a good point in saying that there during the wedding, there was no more emphasis made on the vow that he broke than there was on the ones that I broke.Can you ever forget the OP or the A? Personally, I don't think that I ever will. Can I forgive it - probably, even though I'm not even close yet. I'm doing Plan A more for myself than anything. I haven't been a good wife to my H. I'm going to start, and if things still don't change in my marriage, then I can move on and not have the "What ifs?" or "If onlys..." that I would if I hadn't put forth a 100% effort.Also, EB, keep in mind that for the most part, you are seeing the absolute worst parts of marriages in this room. Very rarely do you see somebody post about the positive steps that they're making - usually people come in here when they're feeling hurt and frustrated, and they don't want to take it out on their S & make things worse. The posts here are not necessarily a reflection of the marriage as a whole.Even Dr. Harley himself says that adultery is the most selfish, thoughtless act a person can commit. But it happens in the majority of marriages. You have to gauge for yourself whether you want to work on it and whether your S is really sorry and wants to work things through or if he's just sorry he got caught. (I'm going to get reamed by everybody for that one, but certain people have a different concept of right and wrong. You could be the perfect S to certain people, and they'll STILL cheat.) I would still argue that the MB is effective for self-improvement in all situations, as long as you're open-minded to the process.Best of luck no matter what you decide to do.

EB - reading the postings here on this thread have had me thinking all day, and much of what you have said really hits home with me. I agree with you that spouses staying together out of duty or because of children isn't a success story. I also agree that it isn't much of a success story when the BS wants vengence, the couple doesn't have sex(make love), or simply does not trust the WS. Living in the same home walking on eggshells for fear that your spouse will seek out their OP or another OP is not a success.I disagree with you on the blanket statement "this stuff doesn't work" I believe that this "stuff" does in fact work with "some" people, but maybe with not all. Like everything else in life, the marriagebuilders principles and theories can guarantee absolutely nothing, but I do believe that they can offer people a plan as to how to recover and rebuild.I read much of what is written on this site, as you do, and I too feel that there is not very much success, as I would define success, that goes on. Maybe that is because those who have "real" success leave this site. I too have read about some of these so-called success stories and have thought to myself that this doesn't seem much like a marriage that I would want to be in, but the sentiments that you have expressed does not often get posted because of the fear of being attacked.I think that it is unfair that some have attacked you for posting your thoughts because these thoughts are contrary to the marriagebuilders principles. I am sure that of the many people that simply lurk on this site, your thoughts are not that uncommon, but why comment when you are going to be attacked. I have posted similar thoughts and I have been attacked, but it doesn't bother me, but I'm sure for others it would.I am a firm believer in that not every marriage is salvageable or even should be salvaged(this is the type of stuff that has had me flamed before, how dare I come to this site if I'm not for ALL marriages being saved, NO MATTER WHAT), but I think that is for the individuals in that relationship to decide for themselves. I do believe that before coming to that decision, every effort should be made to first find out if you really want the marriage or whether or not the marriage is worth having, and I do believe the principles here will help with that decision.I am not sure my own marriage can be saved, there is a long history of pain that precedes my W's affair, that both my W and I are working to overcome. I don't know if my marriage will ever be a good one, I don't know if I or my W will ever be able to overcome all that has happened, I don't know if staying married is the "right thing" for us to do, but I do know that I want to make sure that every effort is made to find the answers to those questions. If we follow the principles here and we end up in a great marriage down the road, then I will be one helluva happy guy, but if we end up parting, at least I will know that I gave it my all and left no stone unturned, but I don't think I would end up saying that this stuff doesn't work, it just didn't work for me.So before you give up on your marriage, give these principles your best shot, if it is simply too much for you to handle, or you feel that there is simply too much to overcome, then part with your spouse and move forward with your life. No one here on this site should sit in judgement of you or criticize you because of the decision that you make, you know more than anyone here, what is best for you, how much you can endure, what you can live with, I simply advise that you give it your all first and see what happens, who knows, you may be surprised [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by F A (edited August 29, 2000).]

I just have a couple of comments... Energizer, unfortunately I am feeling like you at this phase of my recovery w/ H. I just hadn't put it into words. Your post struck a big chord with me. Although I come here for some insights into certain things, I don't necessarily feel that all of the principles within this site work, or are beneficial for long-term success. I also feel that it depends on the very individual personalites of the people that practice them. Some people can be hurt very badly, but have something in their emotional make-up which allows them to recover and bounce back within a reasonable amount of time. Others can have very small things happen to them, and they will feel the pain of it and have a hard time letting go for AGES. I still have friends from 6th grade, that have done some crappy things to me over the years, and after awhile it is always forgotten. If my H were to be in my position, he would have cut them out of his life long ago. He just isn't willing to forgive and forget. Imagine having this quality when faced with an infidelity of a spouse.K - your relationship with your W is a relationship unlike many I have seen, including mine. Sex is such a huge priority for my H and so many other men, that I would have a hard time believing that it would only constitute 10% of a happy healthy marriage. Not to sound crass, but your wife is a lucky woman. If I am not in the mood to have sex with my H, I am automatically unattracted to him, don't love him, think he is inadequate, and MUST be thinking about another man. Let's just say this ruins MORE than 10% of our marriage. I'm glad this is not the case for you...

Just a quick note because I'm at work and can't post a lot right now, but will get back to your individual posts later.For those who feel the need to "attack" what I'm saying: and really, I don't feel very attacked, rather I feel kind of energized, and it makes me think. I'm a pretty strong person and can take it. So thank you for making me think. For those who understand: THANK YOU for your kind words and wisdom. I'm moved beyond words by the support. You also make me think, and I think I'm on the right track.For all of you. My marriage is over. My h is still with his ow, to be honest. She wasn't the first either. I never forgot the first one. EVER. That's where I'm coming from.EB

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Monen: ......I still have friends from 6th grade, that have done some crappy things to me over the years, and after awhile it is always forgotten. If my H were to be in my position, he would have cut them out of his life long ago. He just isn't willing to forgive and forget. Imagine having this quality when faced with an infidelity of a spouse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>See this quote makes me think of myself, as a matter of fact I have posted similar thoughts on these boards. I, like your husband has always simply cut people out of my life that did things that I felt were too much to forgive, now I find myself working on forgiving a pain that is beyond description. I don't know if I can, I don't know if I can ever really make my marriage work, but I don't think I could ever live with myself without first attempting to try. I'm sure my W sometimes feels as you do, I know that I do, but I'm giving our situation 2 years of trying, if after two years we are still in this situation or feeling like this, then I will part, I refuse to go years and years in a situation where I am trying to rebuild a marriage, at some point is no longer rebuilding, but torture.

Dear EB,I am brand spanking new to this. I started plan A before I had any clue this site even existed. I did it because I put myself in hers shoes and realized what a heel I had been and still had some hope for the marriage but also I did it to prepare myself to be alone and to be better person the next time around. What was amazing is that when I started taking care of myself instead of LBing, I saw a spark which encouraged me to meet her ENs. I have been to the brink of hopelessness as little as a week ago. Today, I consider this a success, not because everything is rosy, but because we both are working toward a return to intimacy. I think I am fortunate that the message sunk into my thick skull before it was too far gone. My take on plan A is that it is what you do as long as you are willing to do it. When you you feel it isn't worth it anymore, Plan B is a one-time shot that you fire and then move on if it doesn't hit.

EB:You are obviously very wounded and just recently I might add, in regards to another A for your H.It is also obvious that you did not change any of your situations or habits that may have been causes for the other A. Therefore, you and your H left the door wide open for another A.With your hardened cold attitude you have taught your H how to treat you.I am sorry if you are in pain. Alot of us are and we struggle day by day. Most of us have chosen to post here in an effort to share that pain and eventually get to a point of feeling secure enough to share very intimate details and ask for help and support. Your post did seem very volatile and you also have learned from lurking here many private, intimate issues regarding others and their relationships. I don't appreciate your attacking others personally. I feel you have no right to do that. The issues that someone has shared with the rest of us are very sensitive and personal. They need our love, understanding and support. Which is what I believe you need too.I think you need counseling. You are far to bitter, angry and hurt and not feeling very positive about you, your H and certainly not any of us.We can all do better, if not for the marriage, then for ourselves. Because, until you can look yourself in the mirror and honestly say, I've done everything I can do... don't judge or criticize the rest of us for our efforts to rebuild a relationship for whatever our reasons. It's all about comittment, attitude, and self-love. I know, I work on this daily.Best of luck to you, Cathy

Just a quick note to Catplay,Are you saying I caused my h to cheat on me by my (what you classify as) cold hardened attitude??? I'm cold and hardened why? Because I cannot forget the pain his affairs caused me? That makes ME cold and hardened? And my h? Not his fault because I'm not a person worthy of being faithful to???Somebody please tell me that it isn't the fault of the betrayed that the spouse has an affair. I believe in personal responsibility, and take responsibility for MY actions. I won't take responsibility for his.If you sense I'm being defensive, I am. This is EXACTLY the kind of post that DOES bother me.

Hello all,I cannot BELIEVE I am doing this... and if Jim drops by, jeez, I know I said I wouldn't even lurk... wow, it's embarrassing, but I meant it when I said it! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I just can't seem to help myself on dreery, rainy, hot days like today! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

For what it's worth, EB, I agree with you for the most part. My stbx calls MB Marriage Busters, not Marriage Builders. We, for whatever reason, just couldn't make the concepts work for us. I wish I could have done what they call a Perfect Plan A on him and wooed him home to me. And oh how I wish he could have AT LEAST tried with me. I wish I could have forgotten his five affairs and he could have forgotten my one. (And this, by the way, is where I REALLY agree with you... thirteen years ago were his first three affairs, and you truly NEVER do forget! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) I wish we could have made it. But we didn't. I am dating one man exclusively now (no flames please) and he is the only one since the filing of the divorce. The only thing I can say is that it does feel pretty darned nice to have someone love me without feeling this heavy weight of the HISTORY on my shoulders.I will always have a KIND of love for David, but I no longer have the love that's needed to sustain a marriage. That's sad. That's reality though.I just hope to God that I've learned something to take into my next marriage (and yes,I will get married again because I LOVE BEING MARRIED) so I don't make the same mistakes again.~Sheryl

Okay, I'm going to jump into this one again.I agree with Catplay in a way, and I disagree in a way. NOTHING EXCUSES AN AFFAIR!!! It is purely selfish, and I don't care WHAT a spouse does. Even if it's a revenge affair, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IT.For you, EB, leaving is probably the best thing that you can do. But PLEASE get some counseling for yourself. I do agree w/Catplay in the sense that your behavior did play a role in putting your marriage in the condition it's in. Don't get me wrong - like I said, that does not justify him having an affair. That was his selfish choice. But if you made the decision to stay with him the first time he cheated, you made the decision to work past that affair. If you held the A over his head and continually threw it back in his face, you did a tremendous amount of damage to the marriage yourself. I'm not trying to attack you - I've had to learn this lesson the hard way. Don't take responsibility for his affairs - no way! But do take responsibility in the role that you played in the condition of your marriage. And if you are leaving him, good luck in moving on.

nb:You know that you're one of my favorite people here---but I'm trying to figure this out: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I wish I could have done what they call a Perfect Plan A on him and wooed him home to me. And oh how I wish he could have AT LEAST tried with me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Then really, I'd take great exception to your husband's definition of "Marriage Busters". What exactly did he follow that failed him in the MB protocol??? Nothing. I can't remember David doing one damn thing to follow "The Four Rules".So, his opinion counts for nothing with me. He didn't do it.Your side I feel for. Because you tried to implement this MB stuff. But you did so without professional help---and you know that it's my opinion that you could have used it. Whether it would have made a difference and saved your marriage---you can never know now.Now you're in a new relationship. With no history of infidelity. Are you going to practice "the Four Rules" if it gets serious?? I bet you do. And I bet you'll be successful. Once again proving that "this stuff works". It's just a whole lot easier to use it beginning on day one of a relationship.

EB, you don't have to use MB principles, that is totally your decision, and if I am someone who attacked you, I didn't intend to. There are a lot of marriage programs that line up very closely to MB. I used MB, I used TORN ASUNDER, DIVORCE BUSTERS, YOUR HUSBAND'S MIDLIFE CRISIS, LOVE LIFE, MENDING BROKEN RELATIONSHIPS, HOW TO GET YOUR LOVER BACK , HOPE FOR THE SEPARATED, LOVE MUST BE TOUGH, the whole MARS/VENUS series among many others. I own a bookstore and was reading nearly one marriage/self-help book a day for a long time--until my counselor advised me that perhaps I should take a break and read some fiction...or humor... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.There is no doubt that infidelity creates horrible stress for a marriage. I think a lot of us are saying that from our view point, you can choose to forgive and the wound does heal, a marriage phoenix can rise from the rubble & ashes. That's what I'm planning on, I don't want the old marriage back, I don't want the misery of the last years, I want and believe my marriage will be stronger for the knowledge we have gained.You said <<Yes, I see you as somewhat of a success story, but only time will truly tell. Did you think you were a success story the last time you got back together? Or the time before that? Again, I am not trying to be mean-spirited at all. I respect you and all that you are doing to repair your marriage.>>Hmm, y' missed the part where I said what other people say about my marriage doesn't matter? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Oh, you know I'm not that tough. Right here, right now my marriage is a success according to my viewpoint. And to answer, no, several of the times he came home I hoped it would be successful, but it felt (and turned out to be) shaky and/or doomed. That's part of the reason I didn't let him move home this last time when he wanted to, then when I was ready, he had issues with my behavior, so another month went by. The 3 1/2 months he's been home is the longest he's lived here since Aug 98.<<Re: 2) The WS can truly turn around and be a full partner of the marriage. And what happened after that to make him go astray? Or you? I am not trying to yank your chain here, I'm trying to understand. You did a "perfect plan a" and he went back to the latest OW. What makes you think it will be different this time? Honestly.>>He only had the one OW. I had the old affair, and the EA during the last separation. The difference is he is giving it his all & has already lasted 8 months, before the difference in him lasted 2-3 weeks and he would talk of leaving. I kept him out of the house Jan-May because I did not believe there could be a true change. I was wrong. I call this a success now, because it is one, and I am not borrowing trouble for the future. We aren't just sliding into this, we're still going to counseling, we're both intentionally meeting each other's needs, we're spending the 15 hours a week together, we're making plans for the future--something he'd refused to do for a long time.<<Re: 4) You say you don't have patience. For MB to work, you do need patience, you need love, you need strength of character, you need to know who you are and what you've got inside you, AND you need to let time pass. How much time, would you say? Again, I'm asking sincerely.>>You can set an arbitrary time at the end of which you reconsider, like Dr. Harley's recommendations of Plan A 6 months, Plan B 18 months. My H fit right into the stats that the affair breaks down in 6-18 months after discovery. If 2 years makes your hair stand on end, like it did for me, and YOUR HUSBAND'S MIDLIFE CRISIS talks about a 5 year plan [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

you can think of it like a child's teenage years, you don't live through age 12-20 all at once, you go day by day, things change quickly at some times, slowly at others.<<Re: Personal success takes 1. Marital success takes 2Totally flies in the face of what Still Praying says. Wonder which one is right?>>I can't pinpoint that part of SP's post. I'm just saying my success as a person does not depend on me being married, it's how I choose to live my life. And although I think one person can keep the marriage viable while the other is, as Suse puts it "insane", a working marriage demands both partners.What it all boils down to for me is there is nothing for me to regret in having done varying intensities of Plan A for 18 months. From a reconciliation view, I'm not so pleased with what I did from Jan to May, but I thought my marriage was over, I was taking steps toward divorce and a life without Guard. But I know without a shadow of a doubt that my H's Plan A at that point brought me back to the point of reconciliation, just as my Plan A to him had created enough good feelings for me within him that he no longer wanted me out of his life--when he had just that opportunity.If he had not done Plan A, or changed his behavior and we had divorced, I believe I would have been ok then as well. True that is supposition...but staying in limbo just was not an option for me anymore. The marriage was an option, as was the divorce, but limbo was not.Everyday that I see Guard wearing his wedding ring as he tells me he loves me and look down and see my rings and I know that I love him is a success for our marriage.

HI, HI, HI K, [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Just a quick note soas not to infringe on this thread...THANK YOU for your unwavering support! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

...AND you bet your butt I'll use everything I learned to make my next marriage last!That's all [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

You know I think you're one of the good guys!

Last year when my H left me I found MB almost immediately and started to plan A him. It really worked he thought I was the best woman on earth. Earlier this summer he began to doubt the way I act. I never stopped plan A I kept it up as I wanted it to be a lifestyle change. He started to question me if I was just doing it to be better than OW#1. He has many times asked and made statements to the fact that it was all just a game. I know it wasn't but he seems to think so. So My plan A backfired. I guess my advice is to do what you feel comfortable doing.

wow, I don't know that I CAN keep up and answer each individually, but I do want to say that I'm reading, thinking, and absorbing everything that's written here.Again, thank you.EB

Someone please tell me why it is that someone who has different thoughts, feelings and opinions about the theories and principles of marriagebuilders and how it relates to their own personal situations seem to get attacked on this site. While this is definitely not the only one, I have seen and been involved with other threads that attack when the marriagebuilder principles are not held up to "Holy Grail" status but why this................ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Catplay: It is also obvious that you did not change any of your situations or habits that may have been causes for the other A. Therefore, you and your H left the door wide open for another A.With your hardened cold attitude you have taught your H how to treat you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is totally and completely unfair. Why is it that different feelings, emotions, thoughts and opinions can't be expressed if they slightly contradict all that marriagebuilders is supposed to represent? It seems to me that this type of attack would be a major LB if it was done in our own relationships. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You are far to bitter, angry and hurt and not feeling very positive about you, your H and certainly not any of us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why would anyone feel any different than this if they are going to be attacked for stating a thought or opinion. I'm sure there are many people out there who share EB's thoughts and feelings, but are afraid to post because of the reaction. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>don't judge or criticize the rest of us for our efforts to rebuild a relationship for whatever our reasons<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe I missed it somewhere along this thread, but I didn't see this happening. I saw an expression of what I believe many people see on this site everyday, which is why we get the "Are there any success stories out there" threads started from time to time. What I have seen however is this exact thing being done to those who come to points in their lives that they feel they need to move on from their relationships or who have the audacity to question some of the principles on this site...........that is wrong!!EB, you are a grown woman and I'm sure you don't need anybody defending you, but I too often have the same feelings and thoughts that you do and I don't think it is right to be attacked for posting those thoughts. You know what is best for you. Good Luck in whatever it is you decide for you. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Yes, a lot of people never rebuild their marriages. EB, that is very true. But if YOU want to (and that is totally up to you), I believe you can.You have to be honest with yourself. Do you really want a healthy, happy marriage with this person, or do you just want revenge? Not making any personal judgements, but I think that a lot of us BS fall into that trap.You have to be very very honest about what you have done that contributed to the affair, contributed to the marriage turning ugly. Even if you are going ahead with the divorce, please do this. Because if you haven't learned from your mistakes (and perhaps you really have, I'm not making a judgement about you) you will probably repeat them with whoever comes along next.The MB principles are gold. They are the guidelines of a perfect union, IMHO. With whoever you end up with. Affair or no. They are the Rules of How to Be and Have the Perfect Mate. The Golden Rule, really.Does it mean you can't do whatever you want whenever you want? Uh-huh. Yes, you will not be able to LB, vent angry feelings, etc. Hello, that's life. If you are never willing to protect your spouse from your angry outbursts, you are hurting him just as he hurt you with his affair. You have a destructive habit, and two wrongs do not a right make. You say you are not willing to protect your spouse from these angry outbursts. Angry outbursts are unhealthy and only hurt people. To me, that sounds like a wife-beater saying he has these urges to lash out violently but is unwilling to curb them. And if he "has" to control them for the rest of his life, that's not a marriage.IMO, a BS is in a particularly strange position, of wanting to make the marriage work, and yet not wanting to. This is why we fail.We want to get our spouses back, want them to love us again. But not if it means admitting how we were wrong. Truly adopting the MB principles means being really honest, going "Oh, wow, I totally do that, all the time. I can see how that was hurting you, and I'm so sorry. I'm going to change that behavior, today, forever. I will not hurt you anymore. No matter what. No matter how I feel."But as BS, we really don't want to do that. You see, we are the Wronged One. We cling to our status as the Great Innocent Hurt spouse, we refuse to give it up and take responsibility for what we did wrong, and change our ways.Every step along the way, all through Plan A & B, we LB like crazy. BSs are experts at LBing. It goes with the territory. And then we justify it - we get very good at justifying it. If our spouses had a digital window to our Love Bank accounts printed on their foreheads, perhaps we'd be more sensitive - what do you think? Every time we LBed we'd see the reading go down a couple of points, and every time we met an EN or avoided an LB (even when it's very difficult, which it sometimes is), we'd see the reading go up a couple of points. Wouldn't that be great?Personally, I have to say my H & I are a success story. He cheated (PA only), yet was still very much in love with me. I was going to stay anyway, but my love for him was severely threatened. By carefully following the Four Rules (we read "Surviving the Affair" together), our marriage soared to new heights in very little time.I say success because we are: Teachable and working on whatever problems arise, when they arise. Very much in Love. Very happy together. Members of a wonderful, cherished family. Forgiving, and forgiven. Trusting, and trusted. Trying to understand better my part in the affair. Striving to meet each other's ENs. Committed to one another. Following (and loving) the Rules of Protection, Care, Honesty, and Time.The Affair still hurts. But so does a lot of things in life. It *will* diminish to a manageable size. This is certain.Crazy - a question: why is it so bad to be trying to be better than the OW? I didn't follow you there. You say your Plan A has backfired because your spouse is on to you. I don't get it. Once the novelty of the A wears off, and the OW starts to become a b****, trust me, he's going to *want* someone better than the OW. I'd say you are looking better and better all the time. Don't give up yet.[This message has been edited by WorthItForEternity (edited August 29, 2000).]

Boy, has this thread generated a tremendous amount of response in a hurry!! I can't keep up, and will probably spend some time later reviewing the individual posts and thoughts.energizer_bunny, A couple of pages ago you mentioned something that I said regarding co-operation. To clarify, what I mean is that it only takes one spouse to begin the process of turning things around, specifically plan "A" concepts and leading the spouse back to intimacy, but ultimately both have to be interested in saving the marriage.Also, it's unfortunate to hear that your's is over. You need to do what makes you happy in life. You obviously know better than us what kind of person he is, and whether or not he would ever be trustworthy again.As for flaming you, I guess I was a little taken back by the blanket statements that I perceived you making. I was trying to get you to ask yourself some questions, and of course I had no idea of who you are or what you've been through or tried.Now, so that I can get flamed. I firmly believe that other than parent/child parent/stepchild sexual abuse, and possibly a marriage that was started because of a pregnency instead of love, every marriage can be saved.That is of, course keeping something in mind: That the spouse that wants to save the marriage does what is necessary in the beginning. If it means forgiving, then they must forgive. If it means changing into a better person, then they must change.I am guilty of not strictly sticking to plan "A". The fact that we are still where we are, at least in my eyes, has nothing to do with the material. The program isn't failing me, I am failing the program.

EB:I am not blaming you for your H's decisions to have affairs. This is not your fault! I am saying with your attitude so cold and hard at this time, I don't believe you will believe any thing or any one can help you.I am most certainly defending people on this site and their integrity. I fully believe that no one has the right to sign on here after reading all of this very personal information and judging those of us who are so vunerable and yet so willingly shared their "story" in hopes of healing from their pain and moving forward knowing they have done all they can do...Cathy

I, too, often doubt that the MB principles are effective. I have been in Plan A for 18 months - I do not generally find it that difficult, because I feel "Plan A - ish" toward him, at least most of the time. I love my H, and I expect that I always will. There is no need for Plan B. But I do not think it would make much difference what I did or didn't do. His anger at me has certainly not diminished - I often think he is trying to get me to hate him. Every once in awhile he will send me a series of angry email messages telling me how stupid I am - and then they will cease for awhile. Unlike the vast majority of affairs that started on the internet, his affair seems to still be going strong. I am not at all convinced that the BS's behavior really has all that much effect one way or the other.

EB,I must disagree. See the following posts: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009174.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009174.html</A> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000047.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000047.html</A> If you'd like to chat by email, let me know.lizzie/pogp/alias

Gee whiz catplay, you did it again!Re: I am not blaming you --then-- with your attitude so cold and hardI am not cold and hard. Why do you think I am?Re: I fully believe that no one has the right to sign on here after reading all of this very personal information and judging those of us who are so vunerable and yet so willingly shared their "story" in hopes of healing from their pain and moving forward knowing they have done all they can do...I am vulnerable just like you. And what have I said that makes you think I am using personal information and hurting people with it?I don't get it.*Still at work, still reading, still thinking about all of this. Thanks for the replies. [This message has been edited by energizer_bunny (edited August 29, 2000).]

Dear EB,As eveyone has said, your pain is intense and palpable. We are all here because we are hurting so badly that we cannot STAND it anymore. While you are totally correct that Harley's methods do not work for everyone, even those who dedicate their lives to it, please realize a few things first.First of all, people whose marriages didn't work out keep coming here to post because this is where their support system is - for some of us here it is our ONLY support system. I'm glad you took the step to air your true feelings, but I think you got some of the reactions you did because of the strong bonds with the method and between the posters here. It's the only hope some of our big family has. We all draw something positve from at least trying or seeing others try, even if the desired results aren't coming out just perfectly. Secondly, you see what you look for. Look harder, Bunny. There are success stories all around of varying measure. Like Bernzini said, it depends on what you consider success. I think any positive ground gained can at least count towards a success, don't you?Mine is a success story (even to your standards I'm sure [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

), but to read some of my rants [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

you might not know it! My H and I (well, really it was me mostly) have had it out on this board! When I get into my negative modes, it seems like NOTHING is right. Poeple come here, like me, when they are having a rotten day all the time. And some of us here are still success stories in the making.I have, in contrast posted numerous positive words regarding my marriage and my love for my H, etc. I'd post more, but I come here and see all the sad 'faces' of my friends and I end up saving the best of what I have to say to those, like you, who seem to be losing all hope. It's not that I push this or any 'method' but my point is to simply offer hope that yes, there is hope.So, Bunny, maybe this gameplan isn't working out for you. Personally, my H and I have simply used it as a guideline for our own behavior and to help us figure things and each other's actions out a little better. Truthfully, we didn't adhere to every last little word written in the books. (Although some people truly NEED to, just to get thru it all.) Perhaps if you look at the methods as more of an outline for the course of action thru this affair and take from it what you know or think will help, that would benefit you more. For example, if making all the sacrifices in say, Plan A seem to you like you are giving up way too much of yourself, then do what your heart of hearts is telling you. Only you, not anyone here can make the determination that your marriage is worth that kind of effort or not (and some just aren't!) In the end, no matter how things turn up, you will still have yourself to face - and you will want to know you did things in the best possible way YOU could. And you can feel this way regardless of what your H has or hasn't done on his own behalf for the sake of the marriage. Finally, but most impotantly, you have to remember that everyone's situations are unique - even tho they bear commonalities and what has worked for one hasn't necessarily worked for all. But the steps found here have helped nearly every single one of us in some way. It's not designed or intended to be a 'miracle cure' type of scheme. Success, with ANY complex goal you aspire to will be attained with perseverence and dedication. There are no easy ways or guarantees for this one, EB.You are nearing the end of your rope. I hope in my heart that you keep trying until something good starts happening or until you can't anymore. Either way, we will be here to support you, and will do so gladly.Khyra PS If there is more you'd like to talk about and don't feel comfortable here, please feel free to e-mail me - traumangel@yahoo.comPSPS Sorry for any typos I missed, it's hard to type with a baby sleepin on your chest [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. [This message has been edited by Khyra (edited August 29, 2000).]

Sheryl!!!!!!!Good to see you back girlfriend! You sound healthy. Genuinely. EB, you see, in my eyes, Sheryl's is a story of success even tho the marriage failed. She has been able to proceed with moving on with her life, and I'll bet she's a lot happier (and saner) most of the time now. She did everything she could and still come out alive in the end. Sheryl, why would anyone flame you for dating??? You aren't doing anything wrong, at least not in my eyes! I'm proud of and for you and I'm glad you are living your life, you really needed to. Congrats, and best of luck... and thanks again for all the help you have given me.Khyra

Boy I have my work cut out for me! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

heartache, why did you delete your post?fairydust,Good luck as you work to rebuild your marriage. I'm glad you still lurk. Thank you. suse, You seem very nice and genuine. I hope your marriage continues to flourish. Just one question. When you say that you're "enjoying the fruits of all our hard work. We're having more fun, laughing more, teasing more, talking more, more , than we ever have." Do you mean that you are honestly truly successful and that your affairs will never get in the way again? Not that they will ever be forgotten, I think everyone here agrees about that. But, how did you let the pain go?Nice ramble, by the way.K,Re: Why is "being happy in a sexless marriage" sad to you? Because sex is a wonderful part of marriage and your wife is able to have it but won't. Is that not sad?Re: So, I'm much happier in my marriage now than I was three years ago. Proof that this stuff works. Proof that it is "successful". And as others have intonated, proof that it can work (perhaps not to perfection) if only one spouse is practicing the philosophy.Well, alright K. If you are HONESTLY HAPPY, then who am I to quibble.wasstubborn,Re: The words "success" "failure" "betrayer" and "betrayed" have always bothered me. 1. They are labels. 2. They describe black and white. Absolutes. At least in my mind.I only use the words because this site promotes them. I agree with what you're saying, by the way.Re: I will probably never call me or my marriage a success. It is a work in progress. Plan A is a process. A work in progress. I hope you can one day.Re: Our marriage is far from perfect. I am far from perfect. I am not a success. I am a woman who has learned a huge amount from this forum and Dr. Harley's teachings. A woman who loves her H enough to work through this with him.I really respect this about you. I am sorry for your pain.periwinkle,Re: Plan A is my new way of life. That's what I gather from what I'm reading. I guess it's about making YOURSELF better, not the marriage.Re: It sounds as though your pain has turned into bitterness. There's a book called "Betrayal's Baby" by Bunny Wilson (I think that is the author's name) that is helpful in getting past bitterness.Thank you for the referral.God bless you too!Carolina Belle, Re: Nothing excuses what my H has done. NOTHING! But let's face it, I've broken my vows too. Either Lostva or Lor made a good point in saying that there during the wedding, there was no more emphasis made on the vow that he broke than there was on the ones that I broke.I appreciate what you're saying, but I will not equate an affair with doing a LB of some kind. An affair stands on it's own as cruelty. Remember, I've been on both sides, and I know.Re:Also, EB, keep in mind that for the most part, you are seeing the absolute worst parts of marriages in this room. Yes, this makes sense.Re: Even Dr. Harley himself says that adultery is the most selfish, thoughtless act a person can commit. I agree with Harley on this.F A,I owe you a world of thanks. You made my day today! Thank you. Thank you for your kindhearted thoughtful and defensive (!!) replies.Of course, I agree with all that you said. I truly felt attacked, esp. with one poster, and another has now erased her post, maybe because she was afraid of the same. Now THAT'S sad!Re: So before you give up on your marriage, give these principles your best shot, if it is simply too much for you to handle, or you feel that there is simply too much to overcome, then part with your spouse and move forward with your life. I am thinking about it all, quite honestly.You obviously thought a lot about what people were writing. You took a lot of care in your responses. You made me cry at work. That's not such a good thing <grin> but I appreciated it.Monen,I am very sorry for our shared pain.Re: Some people can be hurt very badly, but have something in their emotional make-up which allows them to recover and bounce back within a reasonable amount of time. Others can have very small things happen to them, and they will feel the pain of it and have a hard time letting go for AGES. Oh gosh, this is so TRUE!!! Very good insight.Re: your remark to K "Not to sound crass, but your wife is a lucky woman. If I am not in the mood to have sex with my H, I am automatically unattracted to him, don't love him, think he is inadequate, and MUST be thinking about another man. Let's just say this ruins MORE than 10% of our marriage."Yes, I agree with this too!ecurb1,I wish you must happiness and that you can indeed put your marriage back together. You sound like a very good man.Catplay,I think I answered you fully as the day went on. I was very hurt by what you were saying. I am not coldhearted, just a regular person who took a chance and posted what I felt. I'm sorry it offended you.new_beginning,K later says something, and so does Khyra about your being a success even though your marriage is over. I don't really agree, but you do sound happy. I want that too. Best of luck to you and the new man. I mean that truly.Carolina Belle,Re: NOTHING EXCUSES AN AFFAIR!!! It is purely selfish, and I don't care WHAT a spouse does. Even if it's a revenge affair, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IT.YES, YES, YES.Re: For you, EB, leaving is probably the best thing that you can do. But PLEASE get some counseling for yourself. I do agree w/Catplay in the sense that your behavior did play a role in putting your marriage in the condition it's in. Don't get me wrong - like I said, that does not justify him having an affair. I plan to get counseling. I agree with catplay on that ONE point too. I helped to ruin the marriage. Lor (Lor),I know you believe and live this.You didn't attack me at all.I wish you a happy marriage this time around, with the same husband you have loved all along. Re: But I know without a shadow of a doubt that my H's Plan A at that point brought me back to the point of reconciliationThat's wonderful, and I agree he was successful in his plan a efforts.crazy or what?,That's awful about your h thinking that you were just doing it to be better than OW#1. I'm sorry for your pain, and I will continue thinking about what I need to do.WorthItForEternity,Re: You have to be honest with yourself. Do you really want a healthy, happy marriage with this person, or do you just want revenge? Not making any personal judgements, but I think that a lot of us BS fall into that trap.Well, I didn't want revenge. I wanted to feel loved. I know what I did was wrong.Re: Does it mean you can't do whatever you want whenever you want? Uh-huh. Yes, you will not be able to LB, vent angry feelings, etc. Hello, that's life. I know that's life. I never said I wanted to vent ugly feelings did I? You all don't know what I did to save my marriage, do you? Just because I vent and write here, trying to say how I feel, doesn't mean I ripped into my h day in and day out. Or frankly, even ever. I kept my mouth shut for the most part. I'm told that we did "protective lying". It doesn't work very well, but we didn't LB or fight really.Re: You say you are not willing to protect your spouse from these angry outbursts. When did I say this?Re: Personally, I have to say my H & I are a success story. He cheated (PA only), yet was still very much in love with me. How can someone be "very much in love" and cheat? Was it a one night stand? Sorry if that sounds crass. Again, I'm trying to learn.Still Praying,Thank you for clarifying what you said earlier.Re: Also, it's unfortunate to hear that your's is over. You need to do what makes you happy in life. You obviously know better than us what kind of person he is, and whether or not he would ever be trustworthy again.Thank you.Re: As for flaming you, I guess I was a little taken back by the blanket statements that I perceived you making. I was trying to get you to ask yourself some questions, and of course I had no idea of who you are or what you've been through or tried.That's true.Re: Now, so that I can get flamed. I firmly believe that other than parent/child parent/stepchild sexual abuse, and possibly a marriage that was started because of a pregnency instead of love, every marriage can be saved.I don't believe that AT ALL.Nellie1,I've read your posts and am sorry for your pain. I hope that things are going better for you. But it sounds like no, and I am sorry to hear that.You are a good mom to those kids and that's what really matters now.alias,I looked up those posts you mentioned and while they're nice, it really shows a handful of "success stories" out of thousands of people. If you'd like to chat by email, let me know.Thank you for the offer of eamil. I will think about that.Khyra,Thank you for saying you see my pain. Not everyone else does. They see me as cold when in fact I am just hurting like everyone else here.I agree about this being a support system - for SOME, not all.Re: Mine is a success story (even to your standards I'm sure ), but to read some of my rants you might not know it! I know what you mean. Yes, SO FAR you are a success story and I hope it continues that way.Thank you too for the email address. I'll let you know if I need to talk.EB

energizer_bunny,I must say that I applaud you. You have had your work cut out for you, and I am amazed that you are able to answer so many posts.I hope that you also realize that nothing that I said was meant to be a personal attack on you, but obviously differing opinions help everyone to see things from a different perspective.Take care.[This message has been edited by Still Praying (edited August 29, 2000).]

EB: I did not intentionally attack you nor intend to appear thoughtless about your problems.I read through your original post and picked up some very negative vibes and I guess I read into them wrong. Guilty!I didn't want you to go off on a tangent, personally attacking those who have chosen a difficult road for whatever reason they have to do so... Someone you mentioned has a sexless marriage... this is of their own choosing and many people in love or not have a sexless marriage for various reasons. Sex does not make a happy marriage, it makes a happy marriage better.This is were I get off. I wish you the best, whichever route you take in your life.Cathy

Hi Khyra!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Thanks for the super-duper warm thoughts!!Yeah, can't seem to completely stay away... and I'm sooooooooooooooooo embarrassed!! Oh well... I'm a dork. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Big HUGS to you Khyra!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Okay EB, no I don't see myself as a success story by any stretch of the imagination, but I am S-L-O-W-L-Y healing, and in my book I am becoming successful. I do still care about my stbx, and that's another good thing I think. I'm gonna be okay, and that's all ANY of us wants, right?Take care, Sheryl

EB, I just wanted to come back and read the responses...you need not reply!I must be in some other "place" finally, because I don't find myself getting annoyed at any of the opinions. I guess that's good.You know, EB, I'm kindof at a similar place...with regards to my marraige which seems to be rapidly falling apart. My H has never had an another affair though. In fact, up until last NOve. He was a very caring, loving, devoted h and dad. I'm still actually wondering what exactly happened to him..... But I'm still taking care of me! I guess that's my Plan A.I particularly found Suse's response to hit close to home.To me, what it comes down to, is that an affair is just like any other "thing" (drugs, alcohol, work, spending, etc) that we use to make ourselves feel better. Therefore, along with the needs, many of the WS's need to figure out what that thing is that's missing inside of them.....first and foremost!!! I see this as my H's difficulty. And I do not think it is the OP that is the problem...though I think he thinks I do....she is just the complicating factor. It is how he "feels about himself" with her...... But I can't tell him that.Therefore, all that said it takes two, hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry for all of us that have not had the other half even meet us on the bottom step.....But I still find a lot of solice here, for what has pretty much been h*** on earth. NO one could ever understand what "this" is all about unless you are living it!!! as we are.And I have come a long way in my thinking...and gotton myself to a better place than I was. I have definatly come to a better realization about myself and my behaviors, and hey, even if it makes me a better parent..... that's enough!!!I hope there are more responses...I've enjoyed this post.

Still Praying,Hanging out for a few more minutes after my mammoth posting. Thanks for the applause.Re: I hope that you also realize that nothing that I said was meant to be a personal attack on you, but obviously differing opinions help everyone to see things from a different perspective.I do realize that now, but it did sting. But I guess that's the nature of the beast around here were pain abounds.No problem and I do understand and appreciate different perspectives.Catplay,Re: I did not intentionally attack you nor intend to appear thoughtless about your problems.Okay, well thank you.Re: Someone you mentioned has a sexless marriage... this is of their own choosing and many people in love or not have a sexless marriage for various reasons. Sex does not make a happy marriage, it makes a happy marriage better.There are, by the way several on this board in the same boat as K, who posted on this thread, and in ALL cases, IT IS NOT OF THEIR OWN CHOOSING. They want it. I do agree that it makes a happy marriage better, but in the case of healthy people who are using sex as a weapon or maybe say they cannot psychologically do it with their spouse - that is TERRIBLE, and I don't agree at all that it is a personal choice.Don't feel like you have to leave because we don't agree. It really is okay to agree to disagree. new_beginning,That's nice that you get along with your stbx, but it doesn't repair your marriage, which you wanted. I do wish you success in your life and with the new person too.Re: I'm gonna be okay, and that's all ANY of us wants, right?Yes, that's all any of us wants. I agree.EB

Wow...you must indeed be the true energizer bunny to keep up with all these replies...good job.I just wanted to make a few quick points.First of all I think K has been wonderfully honest to share the intimate details of his healing. A lot of folks here are in the same predicament and I'm sure it helps them to see that they are not alone. I guess I think of it this way...if you had the most wonderful marriage in the world, the most perfect husband and he got hit by a car and could not perform sexually, would you divorce him? It's called unconditional love.I think it's easiest to feel it for our children. I have teenagers and while I have been pretty lucky so far with them, they could really really mess up at any time. Will I still love them. Oh yeah, you'd better believe it. With all of my heart. I might not agree with what they did, but it would certainly not change my feelings for them.I hope you don't take this comment as a negative one. Believe me, I do know the pain...we all do here. It's the worst thing I've ever gone through. I don't know what success really means, but adopting the MB principles into my life has made me feel a bit more successful. It gives me a plan, something I can do...and it has helped me feel more in control during a time in my life that is not in control.I guess the analagies of the wounds and the healing process is pretty right on. I'm sure there will always be a scar...but it will be there whether H and I are together or not. Yep, he put it there, but I placed a few unsightly nicks into his psyche too over the last 20 or so years. So, please give some thought to how to help yourself and heal. Your H won't do it for you. I've learned that it's time to grow up and if I have to stand on my own two feet from now on...I can do it. If H is going to want to heal this marriage with me...better yet.Great post eb.allison

Hi EB! I LOVE sarcasm! And you are a grand master of it. Please keep posting! And you're so right about K! Poor fool thinks he's a "success". You sure straightened him out! Hope to see ya soon! Lou

that was pretty rude and completley unnecessary. please...moderator...remove the post from middleman.allison

Hi energizer_bunny,Just a word to some friends...K.. thanks for coming back... ...now I can go into semi-retirement [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

~Sheryl... I didn't catch you... ...and I never judge you... ...my love goes out to you and all in pain... ...honest... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

--------------------------------------------OK...If you can't/won't Plan A for life... then... that means... You can't/won't keep to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3902_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Protection:</A>[/b] Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness...for life and... You can't/won't keep to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3901_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Care:</A>[/b] Meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>...for life.If I were to get married (again as it were) and I didn't believe that I would strive(even if I falter) for these... ...WHY WOULD/SHOULD I GET MARRIED?!?! ...maybe money, maybe sex, maybe affection, maybe something else... (I hope not)Aren't the ideas of care and protection... essential elements of a marriage?!If you don't commit to these "rules"... ...please tell why you would/should/could marry!If... You can't/won't keep to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3904_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Time:</A>[/b] Take time to give your spouse undivided attention....for life and... You can't/won't keep to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3903_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Honesty:</A>[/b] Be totally open and honest with your spouse....for life....Aren't the ideas of time and honesty... essential elements of a marriage?!If you don't commit to these "rules"... ...please tell why you would/should/could marry!Does not the idea of marital negotiation <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>... cut to the core of what needs to be learned to "care" for, to "protect", to "be honest", to "give time"... for the one you marry?!To claim that "these" don't work... ...is to claim that these elements (taken together or individually) are not relevant to marriage.If it is a specific issue of success as defined as...1. the opposite of "failure"... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Failure is this: a marriage that is filled with pain, or held together by a sense of loyalty ONLY. Staying together for the children is failure, just as staying together for money, or convenience is. I don't believe that is a marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.. ...and/or... 2. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The real success seems to come from detaching ourselves from the beliefs that we cling onto regarding this life and the people in it and having faith. Faith in ourselves, faith in the people around us, and faith in God's word.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As far as the failure goes... ...pain ...lack of loyality ... children/money ...convenience are just excuses to avoid applying the rules... Not the failures themselves.As far as the (real) success... ...having faith... ...yep... ..you said it... ...having faith... ..."...in God's word..."... (The two shall become one... ...check out a recent post of mine...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000288.html" TARGET=_blank>here</A>)If the theme of loving and forgiving don't run through "faith"... ...where can there be a (real) "success"?Is success the restoration of just the marriage?... ...if it is... ...faith is incomplete.If success is the restoration of faith?... ...you have found the narrow path... ...we all seek it... ...we all stumble and fall on it... ...we all need to repent and forgive... ...we all need it... ...for honest (real) success. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Jim

Hi tootrusting, allison, middleman and NSR,Okay, FIRST AND FOREMOST, I am not flaming K or trying to make fun of him or his situation. Remember, he is not the only one to have this situation in his marriage. Look around, there are others. While I don't think he's a success and have gone on record with that, I also don't think he himself or his wife is a fool. So, then,Middleman, Thank you for the compliment, but it isn't quite warranted in the way that you wrote.tootrusting, Thank you for continuing to come back and think on this. I know you say I didn't have to reply, but I'm here, so what the heck, right?allison, Thank you for dropping by too. Re: First of all I think K has been wonderfully honest to share the intimate details of his healing. A lot of folks here are in the same predicament and I'm sure it helps them to see that they are not alone. I guess I think of it this way...if you had the most wonderful marriage in the world, the most perfect husband and he got hit by a car and could not perform sexually, would you divorce him? It's called unconditional love.How to say this? K, his wife, and others in this situation CAN PERFORM SEXUALLY, and that is precisly why I get so upset about it. It's a whole other matter if there is injury, etc. How did this turn into a thread about K and his lack of sex? This obviously touches a chord with many.I will work on healing me, and thank you for the response.NSR, You are a spiritual and caring man, that is obvious. Thank you for the care you took in your reply.I don't believe the MB concepts save most marriages. That doesn't mean there isn't good in them, or that there aren't some things about them that heal certain aspects of marriage. For example, the idea of the four rules of protection that you mention. Yes, in ALL relationships, but mostly a marriage relationship, they should be used. Two people in the beginning of a relationship would naturally use them. Take new_beginning, who as K says will use what she learned here in her new relationship. She won't even have to think about it, she'll do it naturally because of the new love. It's when it gets older, and one begins to fade, or become human, or flirt, smile at someone, spend money they shuoldn't, or god forbid cheat. Then you'll really see what the relationship is made of. That's the reality. And frankly, THAT'S what everyone here is dealing with. Reality. I just said the words of my reality, and I think some people are afraid that I might be right. Again, thanks everyone for your replies. I am honestly thinking still about what you've all written and it's given me some food for thought.

Okay, I came back to check on this thread, call me obsessed.Hi Jim, and thanks for not noticing me! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Now I'm being used as a template for what it means to follow/not follow the 4 Rules. Hmmm... not a good idea EB. I use the rules even with my stbx now, which is why we still get along pretty well, actually. As a matter of fact, I use them with everyone, because it is the 'right thing' to do I guess. Yes, with the new man I use them, and yes, it is so easy since we are in a blossoming love affair (god good, I hate to use that word, but can think of no other! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

). But, I will TRY to remember to use them ALWAYS because this man, as you and everyone else here, DESERVES IT as a human being that I care about. Am I making sense?One wonders!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Take care, Sheryl[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited August 30, 2000).]

Hi energizer_bunny,I can think of no better way to try to save a marriage... than by applying the "restoration" of faith....It is from your definition of real success... "(it is) in... having faith."If your statement "I don't believe the MB concepts save most marriages"... ...is really meaning to say "I don't believe the (applying) MB concepts will result in the restoration of most marriages"......I agree...The turning away from a marriage through infidelity (or anything else) is a result of our own free will... to goes directly in the face of "faith"... ...and even more so... it becomes easy to do in a society that glorifies "self" above faith....since you can do nothing to transplant the human mind... alter thought patterns... and illogic... or eliminate what causes us to "sin"... there is no "plan" that guarantees marital restoration....to search for such a plan is to look for a "fountain of youth".......a truly futile search!That's why the MB "plans" are a success... They seek out, under the guise of self help, ...a tool to recover faith.If the marriage is recovered... great.If not... you have a healthier relationship with God and your fellow man......that's much better than just a "restored marriage". [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Jim

One more quick nickel's worth from Liz Smith/POGP/alias:But first, hugs to NB!If the definition of success being used here is 'saving your marriage', then perhaps EB is right.We chose another definition. In counseling we both looked at the affair and agreed that it had, essentially, put the marriage in a blender. The old promises made by idealistic twentysomethings were gone in a whirl of sharp blades...poof. We couldn't save THAT marriage. We also agreed that the old marriage wasn't anything we wanted to bring back. Then, it was up to me, the BS, to decide if I wanted to let this person stay in my life. I let him know that I would consider it, IF he was willing to change, as I was. Initially, we decided to "see if we can work it out for the sake of the kids". I believe that many people stop here in their recovery and wind up bitter for years and years (my parents 'stuck it out' for 38 yrs.!). We didn't want a lifetime where we just survived. My h. pointed out that he had an affair to try to bring some happiness to his life (he also agreed that this failed to do that) and if we stayed unhappy together, it could happen again, or I might stray (emotionally). So, our mutual goal was to see if we could be happy AND married to each other.I wholeheartedly agree that sometimes this goal cannot be reached. New Beginning has demonstrated how you can us MB principles and then decide that it's time to end the marriage.The point is, if you don't give Plan A/B a sincere try, I think you leave yourself open to regret for the rest of your life. If you DO use the principles, the outcome may be the same, but you know that you did everything you could to make it work. You learn how to love people in other relationships. And you can always be proud of yourself for being able to grow and change.I think we will 'succeed', but if we should divorce someday, I will always know that I gave my best to this relationship. I will hold my head high, like many here who do divorce. They are successes, because they tried everything. lizzie

EB - Sorry I'm late to the party. Actually, I saw your note almost immediately after you posted it. I could have been the first to respond, but my response would been a "toned-down" version of what Still Praying had to say and obviously you don't want to hear any of that. I'm glad that this post has brought out the MB "superstars". You have received some golden input here and now it's up to you to put it to use. I do, however want to take issue with some of the things you said. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This stuff doesn't work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Remember that taking an "absolute" position like this automatically falsifies your argument. You have been given solid evidence here that it DOES work, but not in all cases. There are no sure rules or laws concerning human behavior. If there were, psychology would have no problem being considered a "science".You have to take responsibility for yourself, your actions and the results of your actions on others. There are relatively few, if any, "experts", who would not agree that the BS had their own part in contributing to the onset of an affair. You, yourself made contributions to the bad place your marriage is in today. You didn't cause the affair and are not responsible for that, but you are responsible in part for where your marriage ended up. It's up to you to acknowledge that and find ways to not repeat, whether in this marriage or another relationship. It doesn't play out very well that you went and had an EA when you suspected your husband was unfaithful. What if he hadn't been??? You are not the only one who has thought of a "revenge" affair. A lot of us have, it's just that we were strong enough in our convictions of what a marriage should be to NOT do it.I agree with K, you definitely need counselling. You are here, which is a giant first step.You have said many, many times that "plan A is nice", but can you keep it up forever. You had better be able to if you ever want to have any fulfilling relationships. Plan A is not about "bringing the WS home". Fortunately, it can have that result, but it is really about you and how you treat others, and that means "everyone", not just a spouse. Please take to heart what my dear, dear friend Sheryl(new_beginning) said to you: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As a matter of fact, I use them with everyone, because it is the 'right thing' to do I guess.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Which by meaning and definition is a "lifestyle" that is practiced "forever".I am definitely not perfect. I have been Plan Aing for almost a year and a half now. It has been very, very hard and I have had this tendency to LB every two or three weeks. But, I have seen a radical change in myself and others have noticed. No matter what you think, Plan A is the reason my W is still with me. It's also the reason she never moved out or took up with OM in any steady fashion. Our marriage is certainly not a "success" story. Probably never will be and, in fact, might not last much longer. However, I am a much better person because of Plan A. Don't get me wrong, I am not a Harley "zealot". I realized early on that Plan B would never have worked one iota in restoring my marriage if it had become necessary. The thing to remember is that these various "plans" are for you, not your WS.I agree with Allison, this is a great post and I thank you for getting it started. I sure hope that the responses here really make you think and re-evaluate your life. Your marriage may be over, but you can follow the advice you have received here and your next relationship could be everything you ever wished for.Jim, this is definitely one for the "Notable Posts" list.....Take care EB and hugs to you....--DeWayne--[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited August 30, 2000).]

EB:Just a note here---you mention that my wife can "perform". That's really not true. When we've tried to work on sexual intimacy, it basically throws her into a panic attack. As much as I love sex---it's not an ideal situation when your partner is seizing up, sobbing uncontrollably, or paralyzed with fear. You're correct in that there's no physical barrier towards sex---but there is an emotional barrier right now. And unfortunately, that also can spill into "affection", because our past history had affection often leading to sex.This is where I think you have a very "rigid" view of the issues (black and white). Using my allegory about earning potential---this sexual dysfunction would be similar to me losing my job. If I did, would I expect my wife to divorce me?? No. But what if I lost my job and didn't immediately go about finding a new one---would that cause conflict in my marriage?? Certainly. If you were on the receiving end of the conflict---what would you do? Divorce?? Again, not likely, and certainly not as a first choice. Would you "lovebust"? This would be a natural reaction---make demands, use disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts, punish this "wrong" behavior. But typically, that response doesn't work in the effort to "force" the person to the desired action, and it clearly doesn't build love.So, given that divorce and punishment aren't the ways to go---how do you go about "fixing" a problem that might not be your responsibility? By creating an atmosphere in which the change in the other person is possible, and is advantageous for them. That may seem like capitulation to selfish desires---but love is essentially a selfish process. No matter how much stuff is spouted about "agape" love, it doesn't support a long-term marriage. Love is selfish---and even for those people who are "agape" believers, their one wish is TO BE LOVED as they love their spouse (which is selfish, by definition).Once you get around the way our popular culture has idealized love and marriage, and delve into the workings---you can start using these principles as tools. Love is a process. Not magic, not chemistry, not predestined. It's a process---just like baking a cake. The bottom line is if you picked some guy out of a lineup, and you both followed the "four rules" together, you would have a happy marriage until "death do us part".In the case of my wife and I, Steve Harley helped me with my marital behaviors, and in instituting "Plan A and B". And it was successful, in that when the affair ended, my wife had hope for our marriage. Our efforts in following the four rules have built our marriage up considerably---I could list tons of details, but suffice it to say we no longer fight with each other, we're much better with the children, we're much more considerate to each other's feelings, and we are much "happier" or "loving" in our interactions.But we're not head over heels in romantic love yet. And that's becuase we're not following the 4 rules perfectly. Plain and simple. But again, we're making strides towards this---our marriage didn't break down in the course of a month---it was four years of pretty serious deterioration. And it's going to be a process to restore it. The great news is that we're both on board with the effort---so much so that my wife has started counseling to work on her emotional issues with intimacy and sex. These are problems that have solutions---and the efforts that we've made using these principles to restore our marriage to this point have finally given my wife the comfort and security to tackle what is admittedly for her a horrible and painful problem.Again, these are the reasons I think these principles work. They're pretty easy to follow when the marriage isn't torn up---my newlywed brother and his wife received a copy of "The four Gifts of Love" from us. That's the time to learn and practice this stuff. But it can save marriages from the depths of problems. Not every time. But often enough, and certainly better than any other "affair approaches" that I've seen. I've been here nearly longer than anyone else, and I've seen plenty of these examples. FA said something to you that seems very common-sense, but I think is tremendously misleading, and very often wrong <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You know what is best for you...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think often when you deal with this type of emotional trauma, you don't have a clue to what is best for you. Or how to make and execute a plan for "what is best". I think that this is very clear---most marriages don't survive this type of trauma, but often spouses are filled with regret for divorces down the road.When I faced my wife's affair, the one brilliant thing I did was to say "I don't have a clue, and if I manage this on my own, I'm very likely to fail." Among the stuff I found in my first few days of research was the MB site. There was no forum at the time (a blessing, I think). I read this stuff, and although some of it was completely opposite of common opinion, it made sense. And knowing that I would need help, the next brilliant move I made was to start counseling with Steve (back in the old days, when he was "cheap and easy" [to get ahold of]).That's why I always suggest this approach to those who are either stuck, or in a very precarious situation. It's worked for me, and for others---and even for those marriages that haven't been saved, the benefits during separation and divorce are clear.

K - I'm sorry, but no one, knows what is best for me better than I do. A counselor, therapist, psychologist, pyschiatrist, etc., can all help in sorting out emotions and thoughts, they can help you devise plans and assist you in carrying out those plans, but when all is said and done, it is I that knows what is best for me, it is I that knows what I can or can not live with, it is I that knows what I can or can not endure, it is I that knows in what manner I want to live my life, no one else can tell me these things.You have endured much and you are to be commended for that, but it is unfair to others to criticize them for not being able or willing to endure what you have. Everyone's make-up is different, what is good for you may not be good for another, what you may feel is progress may not be that to another. We all have different feelings, emotions, views and limits, can these differences be respected?Steve Harley or any other Harley may be great at what they do, but not for one minute do they know what is best for me.

FA:If you knew what "was best" for you, you'd probably never have been in this situation. I understand and agree with you that we all have different tolerances for pain, different emotional strenghts and weaknesses---that we're all "unique". I'm not criticizing EB or you for not putting up with what I've done. I am, however, pointing out that when you state that "these methods don't work", that you may not have really tried them under ideal circumstances. And that the Harley's can customize these plans to your situation. For God's sake---my wife HATES the forms and planning that MB traditionally uses in counseling. But Jennifer Harley is flexible enough to pitch that approach and work with her using an approach that she's comfortable with---and I'm betting that it will be successful. I haven't yet been let down...You (and EB) want a marriage that's restored, with no "triggers" about the affair that makes you miserable. The Harley's just might be able to help you with that... but you won't know, unless you try.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by energizer_bunny: F A,I owe you a world of thanks. You made my day today! Thank you. Thank you for your kindhearted thoughtful and defensive (!!) replies.You made me cry at work. That's not such a good thing <grin> but I appreciated it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>EB - thanks is not needed, I have sat where you sit in regards to being attacked for having different thoughts and feelings about restoring marriages and what is or is not a success, and I know it can become very frustrating to not only be attacked for those feelings, but it is also frustrating when you are misquoted, misinterpreted and judged to be a certain type of person without anyone really knowing the "real" you.Despite being told the contrary, you do know what is best for you, no one else can tell you what is best for you. I will stick to my advice to you, give the principles here a chance, give it all that you have, come here and vent when needed, seek counseling if you choose, but no matter what, you and only you, know what you can live with and endure. If it works out for you, then great, you will be one of the success stories, if not, then you will be able to part from your spouse knowing that you gave all that you could and left no stone unturned. Stay strong and good luck to you my friend.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by K: If you knew what "was best" for you, you'd probably never have been in this situation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>With all due respect, that is total BullS***, who are you to make that statement? You know of me only what I have posted, and believe me, you have not gotten enough details of me to make that statement. This is probably not the correct forum for this, but your statement reeks of arrogance, just because the Harley's have helped you in your relationship and obviously know what is best for you, please don't come here telling me that they know what is best for me as well. While I may be in this "situation", it is not because I didn't know what was best for me.........so I guess now ALL BS' didn't know what was best for them, what happened to the WS's part in this "situation"? To make that statement is to put most if not all of the onus for this "situation" on the BS, and that is BULLS***(to others, please pardon my language, but this just galls me)If you feel that others know what is best for you, then more power to you, but I will stand by my statement. No one knows what is best for me, but me <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>....I am, however, pointing out that when you state that "these methods don't work", that you may not have really tried them under ideal circumstances.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Please show me where I made this statement. Read the actual words that I have written, please do not misinterpret me. What I have stated is that EB should give her all to these methods, but that they do not "guarantee" sucess in restoring a marriage, and if she was unsuccessful in restoring the marriage, then at least she would know that she gave it her all. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You (and EB) want a marriage that's restored, with no "triggers" about the affair that makes you miserable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, where did you read this [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Please go back and re-read what has been stated without the all the "reading between the lines" or the "filters". I am sorry that not everyone, or at least me, don't think like you, or have the same emotional fortitude as you, or have the ability to let others define for me what is best for me. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Now that this has been stated, can we put this particular subject to rest?[This message has been edited by F A (edited August 30, 2000).]

Ok, I had decided to stay away from this post. I read it when there were no responses and I felt such compassion for you, EB. I wish that there was some way to ease your pain.I've watched as the responses grew...and stayed away. From your original post, I realized that there was absolutely nothing that anyone could say that would help you to see things differently....you're not at that place. But...then I heard that you mentioned me! Well, so now I'm here, only to clear some misconceptions and yes, to once again express my own opinion.Thanks for the compliment that I'm a strong woman. I am, but no stronger than most of us out there. I do believe in Plan A and I do plan to do it forever - my version. Because it's part of me, because it makes sense, because it's not a lot different than the "Golden Rule" or all the little lessons my mom tried to teach me as I was growing up. It's not an effort, it's not a "plan" anymore. It's the way I see life, the way I treat people, which in turn determines their reactions toward me. It IS me. And I like it. And I like it's results. I like that I don't have to battle selfishness so much anymore. I like that my relationship with so many people has changed for the better, simply because I look at things differently. I like me. It has made me strong. I am not a doormat...I stand up for myself infinitely more now than I ever have in the past..I just do it in a different way, and more effectively, I might add.Now, there are just a few things to clear up. You're right, when Robert FIRST came home, I did not mention the affair. It was painful for him, he wasn't ready. I had come to terms with so many things concerning that affair while he was gone that it wasn't so urgent for me at that moment, wasn't necessary right then for my recovery. So, yeah, I held some stuff back for a while. My husband was JUST facing these things, just coming to terms with his actions in his OWN head and he was as raw as I was 7 months before. What would be the point of throwing stuff in his face? Increasing his pain? Not if I loved the man. So I gave him the time to begin to heal. It's that simple. Is talk of the affair "off-limits" now? Absolutely not. IF something pops up in my head, we can talk, without crying, without arguing, with very little pain for either of us. It just doesn't very often. He will mention something that happened to him while he was gone as casually in conversation as whatever happened to him at work that day. And, you know what? I take it the same way. Things really don't affect me much anymore. I'm not pretending, they just don't. We're too busy living life and loving each other.Stay away from triggers? Me? Honey, do you remember that I'm one of those who began week #1 of recovery to go to all the places they went together just to banish the ghosts...to make them OURS, not theirs? I run from nothing, never have, never will. Maybe you mean my deplorable lack of curiosity concerning details. I have mentioned once early on that I just didn't need the triggers. But it's more than that. They lived together, they planned a future together. Doesn't take a rocket scientist. I faced all that and dealt with it before he ever came home. Do I need to know when, where, who was on top? Nope, never have. What on earth does it matter? I've never asked because I don't care, I really don't. Why should I?Do some things get a reaction, make me twinge just a bit. Of course. A statement he made a few months ago concerning PT's body gave me a little "EWWWWW" once. Not because it was a compliment to her, it definitely wasn't! Just because it reminded me of the fact that he spent TIME with that body. "Ewww, Yuck!" But that was my reaction. No heartrending pain, no feeling sick in my stomach, no tears, just "yuck". Did I tell him? Absolutely. He tried to make it better and in his own wonderful style kept digging the hole deeper!!! And we both wound out wiping tears from our eyes laughing at the whole stupid conversation and the bumbling way he was handling it. And it was over. No pain, no nightmares, no nothing. Actually, when she pulls a little trick these days, I get a distinct pleasure that my husband feels she has the ugliest ****** he ever saw! Makes me smile! Just recently I was looking up something in his dayplanner for him and I found a page on which had been written "Robert and PT Dodge" - in HIS handwriting. We THOUGHT we had gotten rid of everything (Robert loves the bonfires, too, Wassi! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) I had a moment. Just a moment. Another yuck. No tears, no sick stomach, just yuck. I walked in, asked for a hug. He asked what was wrong and I showed him. He said "I'm sorry", held me tight and told me to go get him a new address book. And then I washed the dishes. It was over, it was done. Nothing lingering. I was fine. Nope, haven't gotten the new book yet. Maybe I will one day, doesn't seem like a big deal.So far, we are a success and we both "Plan A" constantly, even though Robert doesn't have a clue what Plan A is! His suggestion when we decided to build a new relationship was that we be honest with eash other, be good to each other, talk about problems as they come up and be considerate of each other's feelings even when we don't understand them. He calls it the right way to live. WE call it Plan A.Do we disagree? Absolutely! Had a doozy this weekend. We HANDLE those disagreements differently. Do we hold back? No. We did that before and that's part of what got us into this mess. But when we disagree we don't attack each other, we separate the difference of opinion from the person. I'm talking too much and for once I don't care! Sorry NB!! I'm gonna share a story now that I've only shared with a couple of people on this board. When my mom and dad were young and first married, he had affairs (and yes, that is plural). This behavior lasted for several years and she was devastated. They stayed together 'cause you just DID back then, but it was hard. Early on, Papa took a good look at himself and realized that this was not the kind of man he wanted to be, that he didn't want to hurt my mom ever again. And for the next forty years, he was true and faithful. He reached out to her and tried to bring them close. But she had been scarred and simply became more and more bitter. She constantly suspected and accused. She never forgave him, not really, never gave his more mature love a chance. They didn't fight, they just "weren't", if you know what I mean. They both suffered. This bitterness of my mom's affected her relationship with everyone in her life, even her children. It does to this day. I know they loved each other. I know how hard he tried. The only thing he could do to make up the pain he caused her in her early twenties was to try to make the rest of her life as wonderful as possible and she wouldn't let him. When she got cancer a few years ago, I watched my father drop to the floor and cry and pray for his wife's life. And while under anesthesia after the mastectomy, as I was holding her hand and comforting her, in her drugged state, all she could do was cry out for HIM! And he stood there beside her, tears rolling down his face, and said "I'm right here, Hon, I've always been right here" as he held her. For a few short days, while under the effects of medication, she opened up to him, she let him love her and he did. She did the same with me. Once sober again, however, she let the same old barriers come back. I saw the disappointment on his face. Sixty three years old and still hoping he would be allowed to love his wife the way he was meant to. The next March my dad was killed. She misses him so. She cries if his name is mentioned. She still says things like "he caused me such pain, but I still loved him." She's right. For a few short years he did cause her pain. And she always loved him, as he did her. But for forty or more years, she pushed him away, holding his mistakes against him. What a waste. What a waste of love and life. What a waste of the happiness they could have shared, the comfort they could have given each other, the dreams they could have made come true. I understand her pain, I have been there. But I don't understand why she chose (and yes, I mean CHOSE) to hold on to it for the rest of her life. Because of that, they BOTH suffered for another forty years. What a waste.I said it before on my latest update. I will NOT ALLOW a mistake during a period of bad judgement to negatively affect my happiness for the rest of my life. Nor is it fair for this man I love to pay for it for the rest of his...not from me anyway. I am not betrayed, not anymore. He is NOT a betrayer....not anymore. We allowed our marriage, together, to get to the point that something like this could happen. Not anymore. We are a couple who love each other very much, building a future together and that's just the way I want it.So, I don't know if you'd call us a success. But we've learned our lessons. Plan A for me involved self-examination, personal growth, respect for human beings, even those who you are closest to (who oftimes seem to get the least), honesty, compassion, forgiveness. It means looking at the world differently, which results in ACTING differently, which results in changing the way that people react to you. For a lifetime - absolutely. I hope to continue to grow as a person for a lifetime. I don't THINK anymore "is this what I should do, is this how I should act." I just DO and ACT the way I feel. And that's what Plan A has done for me....because the way I feel would have been different a couple of years ago and so would my actions. But, thank goodness, I have grown. I'm not a different person, just more of the person I was meant to be. And I have every intention of becoming even better.So, sorry, EB, I do believe in Plan A. It ALWAYS works - for the person doing it if it's done right. We always come out ahead, we always grow. We always become a better person. We become stronger. We become able more often to get what we need and deserve. We become able to take what life dishes out at us and turn it into something that is good and of benefit us. Life is not perfect and it's not fair. Good people die, things go wrong, good people make mistakes, bad stuff happens. But the fact of the matter is, it is and has always been OUR CHOICE as to whether or not we will benefit or lose from that stuff. Plan A has taught me that I can CHOSE to benefit, no matter what life throws at me. I like that. And sometimes, if we're lucky like I was, it gives us the opportunity to restore our marriages and gives us the outlook we need to keep them strong and healthy. If not, we have what we need for the next relationship along the way. It would not have happened for me without Plan A. It's that simple.Oops, sorry I've talked too much. Actually, I had to cut myself off, you know me once I get started! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Good luck to you. I'm sorry that you feel as you do. There's so many wonderful things out there. I pray for you that one day you will have all the happiness that you so deserve. I mean that with all my heart.Love and prayers,Lori

Dear Everyone:To me, this thread is a "losing battle". This fight CAN NOT BE *WON*. It's exhausting. I liken it to trying to *educate* my H on why his affair was wrong. On why his OW WAS NOT his *soulmate*. Who am I to tell him what he CAN CHOOSE to believe? Who am I to attempt to push my beliefs on my H? Doesn't/didn't he have to come to this realization on his own?Wasn't my trying to push my reasoning on him a disrespectful judgement? Wasn't I *telling* him that he was *stupid* and that I *knew* more than he did???? <ugh--it's horrible when you finally realize all the mistakes YOU'VE made>I see this entire thread as the same type of *argument*. I don't even want to fight this fight...it's a no win situation.Besides who's defining success here? Me, you, that person next to you? What is success to me, may be failure to another. Conversely, what another views as a failure may be a *success* in my eyes. Who knows...what difference does it make?EB is able to see/read/hear/etc. and then conclude/take what she wants from the information she gathers. Perhaps EB, based on her own personal definition of what *success* is, does not believe it can happen...or, if it can happen, that it's not *worth it*....YET. I'm not saying that she won't/can't change her view...just that perhaps she is not ready to let go of her current beliefs...and/or reshape her definition of success.Perhaps she's already *found* the *answer* she was looking for(????).I'm a success. MB *worked* for me. I could post my story. EB could find *faults* in my story. EB could question my ability to *perform* in my marriage. EB could *criticize* my success...But my success is MINE.MINE TO ENJOY/CHERISH/LOVE/PROTECT...It is what is it...TO ME. And, after all, isn't that what really matters? Peace to everyone who has found their own personal success...regardless of what method(s) you chose to find it. So, the questions: Does this work? Can there be success after infidelity?And, the answers: Yes and Yes! As with ANYTHING IN LIFE...only YOU can MAKE it what you NEED it to be...If you can SEE IT, you CAN BE IT. Love, Marie (darn it's hard to stay away [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) ------------------------------------------- "For a long time it had seemed to me that life was about to begin--real life. But there was always some obstacle in the way. Something to be got through first, some unfinished business, time still to be served, a debt to be paid. Then life would begin. At last it dawned on me that these obstacles were my life." ~Fr. Alfred D'Souza

Dear EB,Hi! You have certainly catalyzed an amazing discussion, and your responses are so thorough and carefully thought out.I am sorry about your situation, and your husband's, and the pain you are feeling. I would never have imagined how much pain there could be until going through this myself. And you are still in the worst of it.I think that you have hit on something basic, on a flaw in the way that many of the posters here view the MB principles. There have been some excellent and profound replies, and I would like to add one more attempt to put things in perspective. I can be compulsive about trying to find out what everything means, and have been thinking a lot about this all Summer. But in the end, I don't think that any of us will ever fully understand the affairs that we have been caught in, though we might come close.I have a sense that many posters feel that "Plan A" could be summarized this way: "PLEASE come back to our marriage, since I am now a much nicer spouse than before." I certainly felt that way myself during the many months of withdrawal my wife was going through, as I worked so hard to learn and change and hold things together.But others have pointed out that "Plan A" is for yourself, and they are right. If you are begging your spouse to return to you, to love you, then the dynamics of the relationship are poisoned. Not as badly as by the affair, but still, that behaviour makes equality and love very difficult.Instead, I eventually found that (for me) the only possible attitude was this: "I have changed, and will be a better person and a better spouse, WHETHER OR NOT YOU WANT TO STAY IN THE MARRIAGE. I still love you, and would prefer to work together, but I will divorce you if you want to remain separate."I think that this attitide is essential — I will be this way WHETHER OR NOT THE MARRIAGE SURVIVES. FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.(Sorry about the capitals - it looks like I am screaming. But this is so important).When I finally reached the point where I accepted that I would be happy if I remained married and we healed together, or if I divorced, I felt such peace come over me. But that took me nine months of terrible pain.My wife's affair ended almost immediately upon discovery. We never suffered the endless back-and-forth and continual lying that many here endure. And she was completely honest with me from the day I discovered the affair. But she was so emotionally attached to OM that the pain of his absence, and of the devastation caused by the affair lasted almost ten months, and nearly destroyed our marriage. She had lost almost all connection to me, and that hurt cut me to the core, and her pain was overwhelming.My actions, all the caring and love and consideration I gave, couldn't restore our marriage. About that, you are absolutely right. But they did accomplish two things:(1) They helped me to stop feeling like a victim, a person dependent on the whims of my spouse. They put me in charge of my life.(2) They bought time, time for me to heal and become strong enough to face divorce or rebuilding, and time for my wife to heal enough to look at our marriage again, and at me again, and to see our possibilities. Recovery always takes time, and working on your own behavior helps you endure the waiting.Although our situation was so promising in some ways (my wife was committed from the start to complete honesty, and her partner ended the affair immediately after his own wife found out about it), other factors would have suggested that we had little chance. The affair lasted more than a year. My wife bore his child during it, and lied to me about that during the pregnancy and after the birth, so that I discovered his parentage when I discovered the affair (that was an unbelievable night; nothing in my life compares remotely to that pain and shock). My wife felt that we had nothing to hope for in a marriage - she had made the emotional step of cutting all ties to me and putting all her hopes in him, and came home with me only because she felt there was no where else to go. (And because we have lots of children).You wanted to know about success stories. I suppose that we are very much a work in progress. But we went right up to the brink of divorce. She actually asked me for one. Perhaps we are together now because at that point she could see and believe that my own changes were real, because I treated her with the same consideration I had developed all year, despite the terrible pain of her asking for the divorce. I also told her, indeed begged her on this one point, that I wanted to continue being the father to this child she had borne to OM, but whom I had raised and loved. I wanted to raise him with our other children. And perhaps the fact that I wanted to do that, even if she left me, and OM wanted nothing to do with this boy, finally helped her to re-evaluate everything, and to commit to me, as I had to her. Those few days after her request for the divorce were again something unbelievable, a time of stress and changes and hope that I couldn't have imagined. Years lived in days. By the end, my own feelings for my wife had almost burned out, and there we were - emotionally drained, and both, finally, willing to begin over.We talked. We fought (but fought always under the new paradigm; we could be angry, but I would not be insulting, would not withdraw, would not be defensive, would not be patronizing, would try hard to also see her side, and tried to make certain that each fight brought some resolution, some healing, always an olive branch) and we grew closer with every fight. She finally touched me again, after many months. We began working together on even more things than before (we had been an awesome parenting team even during the worst times of the affair and its aftermath).And we were then given a tremendous gift — OM began (from a distance) to act extremely cruely towards my wife. More pain to endure. But now we were responding as a team, and I was, in some ways, able to protect her. Those events also transformed our relationship. They helped sever more of her emotional ties, and gave us the chance to lean on each other under stress.And now? We love each other and are closer than we were before the affair started. And that despite the tremendous pain of the affair. Not so close in some ways as when we were first married, but also much wiser. And we are changing and growing together daily.So was any of this a success? My sister-in-law (who has been great) summed it up this way. "You have a better marriage than before, and you have a beautiful little boy." And I feel that we are just getting started, that the sky is the limit. Because we will never have the perfect marriage. No one will. Marriages aren't like that, since they involve people. But we are once again a team, a partnership, and have learned an enormous amount. We are facing the future together. I wish there had been a different way to learn these things, but will not throw away the lesson just because of the cost. And our children are (mostly) happy, growing and thriving. They have two active, involved parents. Our youngest child has a family and a father and love and stability, when so many worse things might have happened to him. (He loves me so much, hugs me so much, I can't express to you how deeply moving that relationship is, and how joyful, despite the painful way it came to be).And were the MB principles instrumental in any of this? I never followed them in any deliberate way. SAA was one of the books I read shorly after the affair, and it shook me. But I had already made many of the most crucial changes in myself before looking at it. But that book and others, and the letters here, helped give me the hope to keep on with things when I felt most depressed. And focusing on myself was essential.I had an excellent therapist who has worked with me for almost a year now. He helped me reach the point where I could envision either marriage or divorce as outcomes with the potential for happiness. I can't imagine doing this without counselling. And my wife and I have both talked with friends and family. Their acceptance and support was also crucial for us.Do I still hurt? Absolutely. I am here writing you a letter, instead of having put this completely behind me. But now I feel that I am searching for some deeper meaning in all of this, in life. And so is my wife, in her own way. Perhaps when we have healed enough to develop a joint understanding and acceptance of the past, we will truly be over it.There is something else important. Perhaps more important than love itself, since it helps create the foundations needed for love. And that is respect. It is hard to respect your spouse after they have put you through all of this, and said the things they have said, and done the things they have done. And it seems very hard for the betrayer to respect their spouse, since that emotion just intensifies the guilt.But I have tried to nuture respect, and have been deeply impressed by how my wife has cared for our children, even when near the point of emotional collapse, by the way in which her own skills and career have grown during this turmoil, by the courage she has shown in being honest with me and with others who might have condemned her, and by her courage in looking inside herself and not being afraid to change. She has faced so much pain in her life, starting with having been abused as a child. Nothing justifies what she did, but I understand some of the suffering that helped bring it to be, and respect her courage in trying to re-build a healthy and meaningful life for herself, for our children, and with me. And somehow she also looks more beautiful to me than she had for many years. I enjoy the way we can look into each others eyes again.She is still suffering a lot, and that pain and my pain influence how we act. But I have told her that she was worth this price, though most other people would not have been. That feeling, perhaps, that the person who betrayed you is still deeply worthwhile, is perhaps the only thing that can get you past the worst times. And some of us feel it, whereas others do not.I haven't really said anything about your situation here — only you can judge that. But when we each share a little of our lives, it seems to help. At least it has helped me.I have a few closing thoughts from people much wiser than me. A rabbi wrote, almost 2000 years ago, simple advice for life:- "Remember three things. Acquire for yourself a friend. Find yourself a teacher. And judge each person favorably."All three are essential to survive an affair. (Whether or not you remain married).- And a few hundred years ago, a rabbi named Zusya wept in the presence of his students while on his deathbed. He explained it this way. "I know that, on Judgment Day, God will not ask me why I wasn't like Moses, why I wasn't like David, or why I wasn't like Isaiah, because I was not any of them. Instead, I have realized that God would ask: "Why were you not Zusya? Why did you not live up to the best that is in you?" Turning to his students, Zusya asked, "What then shall I answer?"My hope is that I become the best that I am able to be, and that our marriage will become the best expression of my wife and I together. Not perfect, as measured by some other marriage, or by the MB priciples. But the best flowering or ourselves as husband and wife.And Rabbi Tarfon also taught that we should be cautious about hoping for perfection.- "You are not required to complete the work, but neither are you at liberty to abstain from it"But perhaps the most meaningful principle I thought of this year is:- "He who saves a single life, it is as though he has saved the entire world".I couldn't save my wife. None of us can or should 'save' our spouses. Though I could be there for her and help give her time and space she needed to find herself. But I did have a child to think of, besides the ones that we shared going into this, and when I looked at him and imagined all that he might become, I felt that I was part of something much bigger and deeper than myself. I knew that how I acted would change his life, and that he might change the world.I know that you are in pain EB, and wish you peace.StillTrying

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lostva: I will NOT ALLOW a mistake during a period of bad judgement to negatively affect my happiness for the rest of my life.and...Life is not perfect and it's not fair. Good people die, things go wrong, good people make mistakes, bad stuff happens. But the fact of the matter is, it is and has always been OUR CHOICE as to whether or not we will benefit or lose from that stuff. Plan A has taught me that I can CHOOSE to benefit, no matter what life throws at me. I like that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Gosh Lori, I love you [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<high 5's all around!>.Sometimes I get so *down* coming to this forum. I start to think that *good* people don't exist anymore. That it's simply too much to expect people to JUST BE KIND to one another....and THEN I FIND YOU <sigh>.And, once again, HOPE is restored.Peace, ~Marie ----------------------------------------- "Never deprive someone of hope--it may be all they have." ~unknown

I believe as FA says there are times when each individual is the best judge of what is best for himself. I'd like to be on target all the time, but there are times when not only is my mindset off-kilter, but my behavior is as bad or worse. At those times I benefit from hearing from people who "know" best. I don't always do what is suggested [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

but later (giving it time) it may make sense.I think of it as putting it in the "compost heap". What emerges is composed of the input, but not necessarily recognizable.This thread is a dandy compost heap--and I mean that in the most nutrient-enriching, complimentary way possible [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.------------------ Lor "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." (Proverbs 15:1).

My gosh! I cannot believe this!! This post has taken on a life of its own!Again, I am at work, and I can only stay a moment. Let me tell you though. Talking to me is not a losing battle. I am listening, and I don't think I'm coming across as harsh or judgemental. I don't feel like it anyway.I can see what you're all saying, and I mean EACH ONE OF YOU. Both sides. In the middle even. I am trying to understand, honest I am.I'll check in again later, and look forward to each response.Thank youEB

Lor - I agree in total with you and F A. One could see that in my earlier posts when I was being encouraged to go to Plan B. Plan A is as old as the hills. Another name for it is: "The Golden Rule"...My point to EB was that if you can't live that way, don't expect to get much from others....--DeWayne--

I'm jumping on the vent wagon...For the posts that I have posted here, I have gotten some comfort and support. But there are always those people who feel they have to psychoanalyze everyone and tell them what they are doing wrong or have done wrong. That is not support, that is shaming. Granted, most people here are very supportive and willing to share their experiences, and that's probably what keeps people coming here. I appreciate those of you who have responded with warmth, comfort and friendship. I think too many people assume that everyone's situation is exactly the same and people can be WRONG for the way they feel. People need validation. People need a place to vent- even their darkest thoughts. I think since we are special and unique people we should respect that our situations are not completely the same even if some of the details sound identical. Each of us has our own experience in life.Eb, what you posted was a very legitimate thought on whether this stuff can really work. I have doubts myself because it reduces all situations down to the same thing. I think the MB principles are excellent guidelines for a strong marriage, however, when it comes to affairs, I think it assume a lot. My H is not mentally healthy and that's the reason for his affair, not because I don't meet his needs. It's his parents who didn't meet his needs as a child, and I get the backlash. There is no way that I can fill the holes that he has from his dysfunctional childhood. That's healing that he needs to engender from within. So, it does upset me to be criticized for not meeting his needs and told that is the reason for his affair. I think that is far too simplistic and I don't think anyone can make that judgment without knowing everything about both of us.I'm sorry for your pain that you are going through...I know of another board that solely focuses on the BS and is extremely supportive. I can send you the info if you want. I'm not suggesting you run away from this board, but I think the other board offers another perspective allowing you to draw a conclusion from your own wisdom.Peace.

Hey, Bunny.I may have misinterpreted what you said. This is what I read from the first page of posts:"As far as the "real success stories" it takes time to see how things pan out. I have read lostva's postings and she appears to have a success story. My problem is this - she will be in Plan A for the rest of her life. She seems like a strong woman, and a very nice woman too. But can she Plan A forever? She can never bring up the HELL her h caused her? She has to cry alone? She can't let the triggers get to her? That is not a marriage TO ME. I am not a mean person, but I have feelings and they are important. I just cannot imagine keeping up a Plan A forever. But that's maybe just me."Okay, that is what gave me the impression that you were unwilling to give up angry outbursts and other LBs. If I was wrong, I'm sorry.Our feelings are important. I'm the last one to deny them. But I think you have to protect your spouse from them if they are going to hurt your spouse. The whole rule of protection thing. A wife-beater also has strong feelings, but he has to protect his spouse from any pain those feelings may cause.I was faced with this myself last night. H & I were supposed to have 2 hours of solid quality (undivided attention) time. For us this means I focus on meeting his needs for recreation and admiration, and he focuses on my needs of conversation and affection. However, his mom called (she lives far away and this is the only way they can really stay in touch) and he spent the first hour of our time talking to her. When he got off the phone I was deep into pouting and before you know it, both of our Takers were out and we were both feeling demanding and disappointed. Both of us wanted *our* needs met *now* and to hell with what our spouse needed.I LB'ed once or twice before I caught myself. So I stepped back and decided to play leapfrog. You know, where I gag my Taker, bring out my Giver and meet my H's needs, so that his Love Bank account will soar and his Giver can come out, too. This is harder than it sounds, when the Taker is already in control and hopping mad. But it helped to set a time limit. I said: I'm only going to keep this up for 48 hours. I knew that if I concentrated hard on his Love Bank account and was very careful to avoid LB's for 48 hours, his Giver would come around.So I was cheerful and bright and admiring and supportive, we went swimming together and then went to bed, as he was very tired. I did not mention my unmet needs.Hey, I'll admit, my Taker was still pretty upset. I was feeling very disappointed and deprived of what *I* needed, and oh-so self-righteous for deciding to play leapfrog instead of demanding he meet my needs. I knew I was going to start crying so I went in the other room and did it. I did not deny my feelings, in fact, I encouraged their release and did not fight crying. But I knew I had to protect H from those feelings, because they would only harm him at this point.I look at it this way: The sex my H had with OW (The Tramp) gave him some good feelings. But they hurt me. So going with our feelings when they hurt our spouse is not OK. Granted, LB'ing is a small hurt compared with the really big monster hurt of an affair. But it's still not OK.I may feel like the Loser now because my Taker is still feeling deprived. I still have unmet needs. But I made the right choice because in the end this will enable both of us to have our Givers out and both of our needs can be met. If I'd allowed our Takers to keep fighting things out, we'd have been deadlocked forever in a pointless struggle that would have just hurt us both. Then neither of us wins.Sorry for the rambling. And sorry if I seemed judgemental earlier.

Hi, adamanteve.I can totally relate. I was on another board for two days before the resident queen decided my H was scum for cheating on me and I was deluded for believing in him. Once she had passed that judegment I couldn't have any more discussions without her popping up and reminding me of her analysis. I had to leave.Then I was here for about a day before someone (I can't remember who, and it doesn't matter anyway) made all kinds of judgements about me, the longshot of which was I was probably doing a poor job of meeting his needs (the why is he in love with me?), that's why he had the affair. And that I didn't appreciate him enough. Oh, and that my need for affection was an attempt to get back at him for his affair. And that I beat his manliness out of him and wouldn't let him be a winner with me...it went on and on.If you'd know us, you'd have laughed out loud at some of the stuff people decided about me. In fact, my husband did, when I told him about it later.But I'm still here. I really like this board, despite the confusion. Give us a chance, most people are pretty reasonable and accepting. If we're wrong about a judgement, just tell us, okay?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For the posts that I have posted here, I have gotten some comfort and support. But there are always those people who feel they have to psychoanalyze everyone and tell them what they are doing wrong or have done wrong. That is not support, that is shaming.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps on occasion a bit too much psychoanalyzing does go on. However if someone comes here & tells us they did something and it is against MB principles, then according to MB principles it is wrong. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think too many people assume that everyone's situation is exactly the same and people can be WRONG for the way they feel. People need validation. People need a place to vent- even their darkest thoughts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, you are correct. If you feel something, it's okay. Not "right" or "wrong." Part of the MB principles is learning how to act/react to "feelings."------------------ Prayers & God Bless! Chris For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

WOW, what a thread! Still Trying, I just wanted to tell you I think your post was wonderful. You hit on a lot of points that touched me deeply - I was the first betrayer in my marriage (gulp-16 yrs ago when I was MUCH younger - and dumber!). My deep shame lingered for years, further hurting our relationship as I pushed my H away. I was very moved by how you have tried and succeeded in valuing your W as a person. I *know* she needed this from you, and that it helped her healing; what you may not have fully realized is that it would "come around" and benefit you as well... this attitude is a wonderful gift to her. Congratulations.I'd also like to add that by the time I found this website, I had dealt with my own long-lived infidelity, and just found out about my H's brief one (internet thing that went 'real'). I'd done a ton of reading over the years, trying to make sense of my own situation and it's aftermath (emotional fallout up the wazoo!) - but to me, the Harleys have nailed the dynamics of infidelity better than anyone. And having been on both ends of the stick by this time, I also thought that their methods made the most sense, and were most likely to give positive results. Again - will it work *every* time if it's followed like a recipe? No. There are 'way too many variables. But I do believe it's a *best shot*. It also tries to preserve the dignity of both partners at a very undignified time.Next, I know first-hand the emotional devastation - and it's impact on one's sex life - that a repentant betrayer feels. While my situation was never as severe as K's wife's, it was difficult and unpleasant enough. It *can* be worked through... it takes time and work and patience and love... exactly what K & his W are giving it. *Please* don't confuse his willingness to be patient about it with weakness, or with 'settling'. Folks - it took Dunc & I some 14 years to work *everything* out. It happened in fits and starts, in good times and bad. Our marriage today is deep and rich and *powerful*. And FUN!!!!! And I'm grateful every single day that we stuck it out. We are both deeply happy.So a request: please lay off K. Those who don't know his entire story would be amazed at what he has been through and what he has 'pulled out of the fire' in his own marriage. He *is* a devoted disciple of "The Method", and with good reason - it saved a disaster. I have known K to be wise, strong, gentle, and non-confrontational. He has been generous with his time here *long* after he needed to be here. So if he sounds a *tiny* bit preachy about this - it is because he cares about you all & wants to help. (Stepping down off my soapbox now. K, I hope I haven't embarrassed you to death).TTFN! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

------------------ ~suse~ Rome wasn't built in a day.

suse,You did embarass me to death... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

But seriously, I don't feel "attacked", it's perfectly fine to wonder how great a marriage could really be if you've been celibate for three years. Four years ago, I'd have had the same opinions.I would like to apologize to FA and eb and anyone else who is put off by my 'all-knowing' bluntness. I think that I used to post much more empathetically, and try to slowly convince people to the value of this methodology. I tend to do it much more brusquely now---I've got less time available for this, and I do get tired of typing the same stuff over and over for two years. One thing both Steve and Jennifer told me was that counseling with their Dad at this stage in his career would be much like listening to me---it's "here's the method, this is why it works. If you do it, you'll be in love. If you don't, you won't."Real cut-to-the-chase stuff. But Steve and Jennifer will tell you also, through their huge body of experience in counseling, if you do this stuff the way it's supposed to be done, it will work. Your "success" may vary. Chris or Jim may not be "successful" in keeping their marriages together. But they will be much better off emotionally. And for countless others, this has worked in saving the marriage.I realize that some people don't want to be told what to do. Especially when they're not sure. But again, I don't know anyone who's really DONE the MarriageBuilder's program who hasn't been very glad that they have. And honestly, I think there would be very few (almost 0) people who wouldn't benefit. So when I come across as "shut up and try it"---I'm doing this out of a deep desire to see healing in people who are hurting. I get no profits. I don't need a fan club. I have no desire to be a MB site deity. I just want to see people spared as much of this pain as possible.[This message has been edited by K (edited August 30, 2000).]

Seems like we get a post like this every couple of weeks or so.For what it's worth, here's my take on this:(1) This stuff works for some. (2) It doesn't work for others. (3) Saying that marriages can't survive infidelity is a crock of bull---t. Every marriage is different, just like every person is different. Some marriages will survive it and some won't. I tend to believe that those who REALLY want it, and will do whatever it takes to GET it, will survive more often. (4) None of us can do a "perfect" Plan A, but those who conform closest to perfection probably see a higher success rate.That being said, I think somebody earlier hit it RIGHT on the head (I thin it was Lori):"Success" and "failure" are labels that don't really fit here. You can successfully apply the Marriage Builders formula and still have a failed marriage. I think TRUE success is when you know you've done your best, and that you've given it all you can. THAT is success because even if your marriage fails, YOU haven't. If you've done it correctly, YOU can walk away from a broken marriage with a fully restored sense of self-worth, and a secure knowledge that you don't NEED your WS to be happy. You will still ache. You will still feel emptiness, but you'll know that YOUR efforts helped you find an inner strength. That is success in my book.If you equate success with restoring your marriage to where it was before the affair, then you're right -- there can be no success, because you'll never get back what you had. I think there are MANY here, including Petunia and myself (Dunc & Suse also come to mind), who are examples that it can be even BETTER than before.So, for what that's worth, I hope we all take a long hard look at what "success" and "failure" really mean to us. But, again, perhaps the problems are being caused by overgeneralizations.Just my 2 cents. ------------------ /// Lone Star * ///P.S. Hi, Suse! Nice to see you again! Where's Duncky?[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited August 30, 2000).]

Had to jump in,K,You are truly the man. I have been here for well over a year and do know most of your story. I don't believe I could have endured what you have. Just couldn't do it.I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your opinions.The newer folks may not believe in the "principles", but they are common sense and do work if applied.I'm looking forward to my next M and will definately enjoy the benefits of MB.Tim

Yeah, K, I have to chime in here, too.I have to admit, I kind of turned off to this thread, then decided to go back and read it systematically. (kind of didn't like the conflict that was going on here--I really hate meaness.)See, I am glad that I have found this site to have people like you set an example for me.As I mentioned earlier on in this thread, I forgave and forgot about infidelity in my first marriage--after I did exactly what is not to be done: I raged and revenged, let him have it, then figured we were even.So, I know that even without following MB principles, you can have "sucess," if sucess is what you want to call it.The infidelity in my second, cherished marriage has brought about the end of it, I fear. Yet what I have learned through MB, and how I have grown as a person, spiritually and in temperment, could not have come any other way. So, yes, I figure that I have gained a lot from this that I couldn't otherwise.And as Medic sez, my next marriage will be wonderful, if indeed there is a next marriage, because now I know what I must do to make it so.But my kudos to you: you are a rare jewel of a man and I know that you will have a happy life ahead of you. Your little kids will grow up cherishing you.Give me some of your patience and tolerance now.

Can't stay on for detailed replies, but I did want to say that I think what you're all saying about K is nice. He seems to be a nice man who believes in what he's doing. I have respect for that.As far as what I see as "success" - yes, I think that a saved, good, sexual marriage is a success. "Failure" to me is not having a marriage anymore. I do appreciate what everyone is saying about their views of success and failure and all the labels we put on stuff around here. I think that this thread was good, and I thank each of you for your thoughts.Thanks again for the replies. I bet this will die pretty soon. I've never seen this many replies before so I must have touched a nerve. It's good to think!EB

Thank you everyone, and forgive me for not replying to each of you alone. I'm too tired, too frustrated right now to think straight.I am going to get a divorce. My h doesn't want to give up his OW, and at this point I don't care anymore. That's not true, I do care. But I can't fight for him anymore. I appreciate what everyone has said, and I will never forget how wonderful you all are.This is my last post.Good luck to everyone who wants their marriage, which seems to be just about everyone except a few.You are right. You are all successes as yourselves, with or without your spouses.Bye, and thank you again for the good discussion.EB