Anyone with a GAMEPLAN to help? - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Hi!With the holidays drawing close, I feel so fedup and depressed. I also noted Schizzo's post to me that showed how she cared that I seem to sound angry in my posts. I agree that I have sinned and become someone I cannot recognise nor accept. So, I am here to ask you to help me with your gameplan, real or freshly designed to get through my feelings.How can you honestly and practically (which obviously includes spiritual for practising Christians) if you have gone through this:WS' A started on a pissed drunk night set up by staff. Staff threatened exposing A to family and company. 2 years of 'living he*l according to WS' ensued. A exposed after he kept rejecting and culminated in the staff kniving WS. Throughout the A, staff cursed wife and baby and other family members and threatened our lives. WS said he was a victim and was made to feel like a prostitute. Staff imprisoned and court case pending. Due to the cruelty of the staff, my beloved father passed away, our families have been harrassed and hurt, our peace destroyed, my WS lost his job, WS was extorted a huge sum of money, I am unable to care for my baby, WS deteriorated in all aspects, etc..How does one come to a place where they can forgive the WS and the witch OP.I know that I use words such as witch OP. Before this A, I couldn't even say 'snitch' without feeling like it is some bad and demeaning word. See how I have deteriorated. My WS actually calls her 'piece of evil sh*t' and 'worse than a prostitute'.I use bad terms, I know. I would really want to use whore but my WS said that whores try to make a living but that the evil sh*t seeks to destroy. I don't use the term 'slut' in this case because it is too tame (IMO). Witch to me conjures up some wicked thing brewing and stewing evil schemes to entrap and destroy.Again, I often omit the simple term OW because there are actually OWs posting here so out of respect to them, I made it clear that the person in our case was a witch OP. Actually, I sort of started off by calling the OP chinless banshee and other (can't remember) names.To be fair, I hardly ever use H but 99.9999% of the time I use WS.I am writing this because I apologise that I am so angry and as I have said in my first ever post and in other posts, I cannot recognise the person I have become. I need help and I do not want to be dragged down and destroyed by some wicked person. I don't know how to call the witch OP by any other name at this time in my roller coaster mode - do you have a suitable term?Part of the reason that the marriage is not rebuilding is because WS wants to move on, forget the past and not seek counselling. We have a date booked a few weeks from now after I kicked him out for not confronting issues.I really think I cannot accept the death of my father under those circumstances, and that my WS was indirectly party to that. So forgiving him is taking a long time.God bless all of you Unfortunately still 'weep'.

Dear Weep,I am so sorry for the horrendous situation you have lived through and the pain you are bearing. I think it is unrealistic to worry about forgiving anyone at this point. That can come later after some of your needs have been met and the pain has been acknowledged and regreted more.I know it sounds a little Pollyanaish, but I focus on not letting WS and OW turn me into someone I would not respect. I figure I can "win" if I can keep my dignity. But, we BSs need somewhere to vent the extreme anger and pain that we do not vent at WS. To me, that is one of the great benefits of this forum. Be honest here and share your feelings because we understand like no one else could! Even if we are not always posting our worst thought or feelings, we are still having them so don't feel bad when you share!Now for you. Can you find something, no matter how small, that you can look forward to in the next few days or a week. Something that would make you happy or feel better. I know everyone says it and I've been ignoring it, but I think we BS really have to start doing something for ourselves. It is really the only way that I can see me rebuilding my self esteem. I don't want to rely on anyone but me and the Lord for my self esteem again!!! Please continue to share, we care.

Dear Exhausted,Thank you for your support and your advice. I am still in my marriage because my father asked me to stay in the marriage for my baby's sake, and that was a deathbed request. My beloved father actually asked my brother to beat up my WS to 'teach him a lesson' - it is a man code of honour thing - because my fahter was too ill to do that himself. But my brother declined because he was not a violent man. WS said that he rather they beat him as so that he can look them in the eye again.I think apart from the anger was the shock at how scary the situation was. The adultery and the attack and then the death. I really cannot understand anymore the actions of people caught in adultery; it seems that it is only them in the whole wide world whether they want in or out of that situation. Little did they see beyond the obvious consequences. In my case, the consequences are mind-boggling. One of the saving grace is that my father accepted Jesus as his personal saviour on his death bed after years of idolatry.I think too many people, esp WS, are trying to ask me to get over the adultery quickly. It is strange how once the WS commits adultery, the love just dies and the feelings are gone and the heart doesn't quicken whenever I see him. I am sad that I seem to be the about the only one here who has no more love left for a WS. Others are still in love with their WS however foggy the brain happens to be. This is also one aspect that got me thinking about my nature - but then again, nobody's beloved dad got killed as a result of the A, right?God bless you take care from weep

((((((weep))))))I am so sorry that you have been tormented by these horrible events. I will say a prayer for you. Herre are some things I found helpful, I hope you may be able to use some of them. I did many things during my pain in an attempt to ease it. Every time I started to feel overwhelmed, hatred or despair, I prayed for God to life me out of this. I said it as many times and as humbly as I possibly could muster. I felt like a begger but I did get a measure of relief. I also found a Psalm by accident one day which I read to myself everyday and everyevening. It is Psalm 143, a Psalm of David. He talks about how his enemies have crushed his life and his soul. How he remebers meditating on Gods work and how he longs to be in that light again. He is beseaching God to deliver his sould out of trouble. You can tell that I think it is beautiful and it fit how I felt. Regarding the witch OW, what is she becomes a non entity? Someone not worthy of your time or feelings. Do you think by letting that go it would free up some of your feelings for your H? It sounds like you and your father were very very close. I am too. I know how monumental a loss like that must be, for I feel great pain when I think of being without my father in my life. But, I can tell that he loved you very very much and that he wanted you to be with H. As you said, his deathbed wish. You know he would not want you to feel as tortured as you do. Have you prayed to him? I believe we can do that. I don't know how you feel about it. What if you asked for some of his strength and wisdom to help guide you?I wish that I could help you more, weep. I truly do because many of your post have really struck a chord with me. I picture you as a graceful person. I will continue to lift you up in my prayers.cleo

Dear weep, I’m so sorry to hear that you’re still feeling down and still have to go through the pain and suffering. I agree with Exhausted that you have to focus on healing yourself and working on yourself. If it is possible, do not think too much about your WS and “witch OP”. It’s only going to make you feel angry and frustrated. Please be strong and focus your attention to your own happiness and your child. I remember you told me that you would start up certain activity for yourself, exercising, swimming, dancing, etc…. I think this will help you to focus on something you love to do before. Please start doing it if you can. Just do it for us, OK, weep. I’m sorry to hear about your father. I know that your WS might have indirectly contributed to his death, but he was gone to heaven already. Please let him rest in peace and accept that he is in a wonderful place and in harmony. I know it is hard to forgive, but we have to learn how to do that little by little. Weep, take it one day at a time. Take care and sleep more, OK.OOOO

Dear cleo,Thank you for your hugs and prayers. This is the first time I ever received cyber hugs and they feel really good [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. I think I will start sending cyber hugs, too.I will read the Psalms as you have pointed out. I am really at the dip in the valley now. Actually, it is more like I was pushed into the pits by others and I am jumping up and down all the time so that I get to see some light every now and then, however fleeting.I am actually the chip of my beloved father. He is a very honourable and wonderful man (Didn't mean to sound like I am wonderful, I mean, physically, he actually looks like a handsome movie star - oops, this is getting to be embarrassing, I better stop.). He would have given me great wisdom as well as experience to help me get over this A. My mother was WS.Yes, I miss his wisdom and his love. I did pray to God to let me dream of my father and I did. He was radiant and was sobbing and he called out to me and said to 'stop beating him (WS), he will never understand the kind of pain that you feel. I do understand your pain." It comforted me to know that someone knows the sort of torment I am going through and that I was not actually mad all the time.Then I found this MB site and found many caring and wonderful souls (both BS and WS such as Carolina Belle, Cleopatra, Lor, burned Spouse, Delphi, SS121, OOOO, Schizzo, Catnip, Jenny, Taj, hw, SueB, AW, Karenna, Happy_girl, Heavenlybody, Rick, TimJ, DesertRose, SKM, taxman, Rockaway, Bozos_Debs, Flowerseed, Noodles, Comfort, NSR, and many others, even JL - who has never replied to my threads but whose generous and wise help to others make the world a better place). I believe that God led me here - I think my beloved father pulled some strings [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.(((((((((((((((cleo)))))))))))))) thanks. Please let me know how you are doing.[This message has been edited by weep (edited December 12, 2000).]

Dear OOOO,Thank you for your support and advice. I know I can learn a great deal from you. I would love for God to give me just 10% of your patience, forgiveness and humility.I am so tired. I know I really need to heed all your advice to let go and stop thinking so much. My anniversary is coming up and it makes me very depressed at the state of the marriage.WS got me something from Tiffany's but I am not getting him anything. He gave me a pair of pearl earrings - dangling and with a tiny diamond in the middle. We will be spending the weekend elsewhere - baby and us - so that we create something instead of just wallowing in the anguish.I will take up the dancing lessons soon and will be enrolling in foreign language classes tomorrow. Maybe I can learn to vent in another language [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.OOOO, I know God's Grace is sufficent for all my needs, from the way God gave my father a place in heaven through salvation, as well as many miracles. I really needed them to help me focus. As I am typing this, I have this enlightened understanding that all the miracles (very tangible ones) were needed because of the horrendous events. Without these, I will not overcome. Keep us updated on your situation.God bless and help you take care from weep[This message has been edited by weep (edited December 12, 2000).]

Weep:Thanks for responding to my post last week. Your kind thoughts came at an important time for me.Your situation has been really awful. I know that even in isolation, the A or your father's death would have been a terrible, soul-wrenching thing to deal with. In combination, they're a pretty vicious one-two punch. Add usual holiday stress on top of that (which I know all about) and, well, I can understand why you're feeling so low lately.I know what you mean about not liking, or even understanding, the person you've become as a result of the A. It's the grim consequence of adultery that the people involved are never the same, if the folks on this board are any indication. I NEVER thought I'd be the kind of person who would do what I did to my W. I couldn't even have imagined actually being so cruel.I think all that we can do is determine that, even if we're different in ways that make us sad, we can also be different in ways that are better. I'm hoping to deal with some of the insecurity/secrecy issues that I've had basically throughout my adulthood and that I suspect made it easier to have an affair. I'm hoping to be a better H to my W -- helping to make her feel protected and safe, and to know how much I love her. In time, perhaps, you and your H will be able to make changes in your life as a result of the A that will make you happier people than you could have been otherwise.Your anger at the OW, your inability to do anything but call her names, is completely understandable, given your situation. So is your anger and difficulty forgiving your H. Neither of those feelings is necessarily the most Christian way to feel, I guess, but they are HUMAN feelings. All you can do, all Christ would ask you to do, is TRY, weep. Try to be better, to be more understanding, to forgive truly in your heart. The back story to your H's A (the blackmailing part of it, especially) always struck me as somewhat suspicious, but you know better than I whether all of it is true. Assuming it is, it sounds as though your H is genuinely sorry and that's a good start. That he just wants to "forget it" and put it "behind" him is a little troubling. He really should be getting in to counseling. You don't get blackmailed into a two-year long A that results in your father-in-law's death, a stabbing, and jail time without having some emotional baggage that it would be good to talk through.Good luck, weep. You know we're all pulling for you. Take care.

weep,I am running out real quick, can give you update later. I justed wanted to share with you something someone very wise just told me. She and I prayed for my H's OW. It was hard at first considering the feelings I had towards her. My friend told me that when we pray for the OP it comes out of a love that we can only get from God. I think you should try this. You may feel hypocritical, at first, but you will feel that your burden has been lightened somewhat. Pray that whatever evil has taken her over, be removed. Pray that her soul is healed. I know it will be hard. It was for me. In the end, I think we were both helped. God is great and merciful. Remember that.cleo[This message has been edited by cleopatra (edited December 12, 2000).]

Dear Taxman,Thank you for your great post. As usual, I find your very measured tone somehow puts things in its proper perspective. I have been wondering why you call yourself 'Taxman'.It is precisely the unresolved issues that gets me mad. A lot of other hurtful stuff, including the issue of rejection, have really become huge boulders on our path to rebuilding. Add the other twists and turns and jail and blood, and my birth hormones, I can say that I was one wreck. My head threatened to explode all the time and I can't even care for my baby.I said exactly the same things to WS: how he could stomach and not need therapy to get rid of the emotional baggage and all those horrendous things as well as my beloved father's early demise. He felt that he could just suppress them all and numb them. I really really get very upset especially when he is deteriorating instead of improving. He puts the blame of his current state squarely on my shoulders. That my need to know and constant unforgiveness led him to deteriorate. So, what else can I do except fight and kick him out of the house? How can we heal when he is against counselling for me as well as himself? I have given up so many times and I had to slash a portrait painting of us before he decided to go to counselling.I really am at the end of myself and I have told him that if I do not want to work on the marriage, I will not need to know anything or get us to counselling. Taxman, It is precisely the sinister plot that has me all blown away. I mean, why does the witch OP need to get the cake for pyscho? Maybe, if not for such a pyscho, my WS would have continued for three decades?I guess I would have to go counselling and get WS to tell the truth and then leave it to God to dispense His approval.Your word TRY really helps. It is comforting to hear that I don't have to blast the music and say "Let's dance, baby! Let's put the past and I forgive you and love you and ..".By the way, how are you coping with your blues? Are you seeing a therapist to work through your feelings?God bless you take care from weep

Weep,Sorry to hear about your down times. My situation never seemed to get quite as bad as yours, but there was a time when I to felt like the otherman was the cause of all the problems in my life. I came to realize that he was not. Mostly, I am to blame for the troubles that come into my life or should I say I am to blame for the attitude I take for the trouble that comes into my life. Early in my wife's affair, I choose to feel pretty depressed and angry. I thought life as I knew it could never be again. Well I was right and sure am glad. I am sorry to hear about your dad. Not sure it helps at all, but for me, I have come to not fear death as much as I used to. I used to think that death meant the end of life. I do believe that death is actually rebirth into a new life. Not quite sure what that new life will entail, but I am not as afraid of it as I used to be. My guess is your dad is doing quite well in his new life. I am not much for quoting the bible, but I recently came a cross a card that I think God sent to me that led me to a bible verse that has helped me understand the troubles in my life and actually come to appreciate them. The verse is from Romans 5:3 and it says "We can rejoyce, too, when we run into problems and trials, for we know that they are good for us - they help us learn to be patient". This has helped me look at the happenings in my life in a whole new way. Instead of looking at my wifes affair as something horrible, I see the good that has come out of it. For me it is what openned my eyes to the way my wife and I had been living. It helped me to finally be able to get into counciling on my own and deal with my problems. At first I blamed my wife for my problems. I felt that if she wouldn't go to counciling with me, our marriage would not get better. What I came to realize is that it wasn't my wife that needed to get better, it was me. I good book on working on the marriage alone is called "How one of you can bring the two of you together." Helped me change my attitude about things. Anyway, as much as the trouble in our life seem to bring us down, they always seem to happen for a reason. When you understand the reason, you start to see the troubles as blessings. As others have told you, keep working on yourself. Try not to dwell on the other woman, someday maybe you will understand why she is the way she is. My guess is she has had an awful life her self and probably knows no better. Maybe she will even grow from the tradgity's, but maybe not. Any, things will get better for you and your husband, just keep working on you.

weep, You have suffered trauma upon trauma here...it is no wonder that your anger and bitterness have grown into something that frightens you. I don't believe that you have irrevocably changed into someone you don't like. I believe the fact that you see your present mental and emotional state as negative is a big step towards making the change you need.First, let me tell you that the change isn't going to be instantaneous....it is going to take some time, but I don't believe it will be as much time as you might think. I would encourage you to begin by simply seeking a closer walk with God. Do you have a personal relationship with Him? Has He changed your life? If so, then you already have a foundation to work from. If not, I encourage you to begin praying for Him to lead you to someone who can help you begin a personal relationship with Him.In telling you to seek a closer walk with God, I am suggesting that you try to set aside the desire to fix all the anger and bitterness right now. It is when you are in a more peaceful state of mind and emotion, that I believe you can begin to see the paths to forgiveness and healing more clearly.I encourage you to get a copy of the One Year Bible (New Living Bible translation). This particular translation is written in an easier to read language than the King James or other translations. The Bible is set up with readings for each day of the week....one each from the Old and New Testaments, Psalms and Proverbs. I would encourage you for now to concentrate on the Psalms and Proverbs. I also encourage you to seek out a daily devotion book. I especially love Experiencing God Day by Day by Henry Blackaby and His Imprint, My Expression by Kay Arthur. I would direct you first to the Blackaby book. It is easily read in 10-15 minutes a day and I believe can help you greatly.I would also encourage you to begin listening to Contemporary Christian music. This may sound like a strange suggestion, but it is so much more uplifing and positive than secular music. I wake up almost every morning with praise songs going through my head....what an awesome way to start the day!I can suggest other books for you on forgiveness and anger, but I honestly believe concentrating on your own spiritual healing first will better pave the way for them later.Your anger is not bad, weep. It is a legitimate reaction to some terrible things in your life. Don't beat yourself up for it. But at the same time, don't let it destroy you. It is the way you respond to your anger and deal with it that can be bad and destructive. Your husband's desire to move on and not deal with this is not all that abnormal either, but it is an unhealthy thing to do. I would encourage you to try to find a way to begin counseling with or without him.You can overcome this and become someone that you like. From my own experience, I believe a close, personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the best way to do that. ------------------ "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Dear Tim,Thank you for making the trip over from Recovery to help me.I totally agree that I need to focus on myself to find my inner worth again after such tragedies and crises. I always believed that when one is stripped of everything materially and emotionally and in this case even beloved ones, your soul should be able to shine for what it is worth. My soul is tortured now and I am asking God for a new one. You are right that from horrible things we can get lessons and positives out of them. I have often advised others that the true measure of a human being is the ability to rise from the ashes again and again, every single time becoming a better person. I am not that strong but at least I have Jesus as my Saviour and Deliverer and that is all I am clinging on at the moment.Yes, I agree that things happen for a reason but there are consequences to that, and too many people were caught in the consequences. But I still believe that good can come out of it. My father accepted Jesus as he was dying and that is after a life of idolatry. That is one of the most beautiful positives in this nightmare.Tim, I am very encouraged by your post and the others as well, even though I am still suffering. I just enrolled for a foreign language course yesterday, and would like to take up dancing but at the moment I feel that my feet are a little laden. What are you doing to perk up?God bless you take care from weep

Dear HGBrawner,Thank you for helping me and popping over from Recovery, too.Your advice has given me great practical things to do. I have been searching for a good bible because the one I have is a small travel size type. Thanks for the references. I have also been searching for one such as 'Everyday with Jesus' but to no avail. Lately, I have been so distraught, I have not being able to read the bible and do quiet time at all. You are a godsend. This is indeed one area that I know God is convicting me of. Your are about the fourth person recently to ask me about that but the first to give me practical references. I will look for the books next week when I make a trip to a Christian bookstore.I do have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus. I think I am hiding from Him now because of my anger and sinning since I discovered WS's A. Many people have told me that as long as I hold on to anger and unforgiveness, God will not listen to my prayers and will not bless me. Is that right?One pastor did tell me that God understands and is forgiving of my failing but many others at church said the above.Given the dire consequences of my WS's A, I was tormented and was in emotional trauma (a term I learnt at a healing ministry). There I was healed of the pits of violence, suicidal thoughts and other horrendous emotions that have imprisoned me. In fact, the pastor at the ministry was very annointed and as he came towards me, he broke into a song about 'opens prison doors, sets the captive free'for about 5 minutes or so, and touched my head without even knowing my problem. Healed my mother of a bad knee as well (without asking).My baby was also made whole because baby was witness to every fight and always saw me sobbing. My child never cried and has always been very grown up but after the pastor laid hands, my baby cried out loud for the first time, and has since been crying and throwing little tantrums as all babies should do.My WS is clinging on to the victim story and will not seek counselling all these months and will get angry and defensive everytime I ask him stuff about his A. He is also against me going for counselling saying it is a waste of money and to stop living in the past. So, I am left stranded with all the issues and hate and baggage with nowhere to unload. Then in desperation I slashed the portrait painting of us and kicked him out of the home (my WS cannot recognise me anymore, too). He agreed to go counselling the next day after the posters at POPW prayed.HGBrawner, that I survived this long and even at all is due to God's Hand in my life, and I thank Him that His Grace is sufficient for my needs (I will post some stuff in POPW concerning God's Amazing Grace under my thread). However, the daily living is tough and I seem to be wasting time and wasting life mired in such pain and hollowness. I hate to be like this. Thanks again for telling me that going to God first is a start, and that God will lead me back. I think that I have been influenced by timeline demands and goodwill pressure from loved ones.And how is your life now?God bless you take care from weep

weep My life is wonderful. I have received such blessings from God and continue to hear from Him daily....in big and small ways. I know you've heard me say often that I can never be grateful for the sin that came into my life in the affair, but I am eternally grateful for how God revealed Himself and all He has done for me and my husband. One of the things I am grateful for is the chance to reach out to people who are seeking solace and offer some small help.I believe that God hears the cries of His children....those who know Him in a personal way. Your pain and anger may keep you from hearing Him as clearly, however. Those who know Him as personal Lord and Savior always belong to Him and He will never turn His back on them. Those of your church family who tell you that He won't listen to you are mistaken, in my opinion. I believe their job in this crisis is simply to love you through it. By this I mean they are to hug you and dry your tears, pray for you and with you, and offer you their caring. God is the One who will convict you of any sin in your own life, not your fellow church members. I encountered a similar experience to yours from some of the people in our former church. Some pretty harsh things were said to me and backs were turned in the crisis. I freely admit that my behavior wasn't what it should have been. I was hurt and angry and caught up in those emotions. But I can tell you that turning to God for help make the difference. One thing that the feelings of being abandoned by our church family did was to cause my husband and me to cling to each other and to God. I was able to hear God more clearly because I didn't have the human voices cluttering up my hearing. I believe we Christians are called to love one another when in crisis. We can't condone sin and I believe I've shared with you over on Recovery in the past that I was concerned about the depth and potential destructiveness of your anger. But God calls me to offer you constructive ways to deal with that through Him, not condemnation. This is what I believe your church family should be doing along with some serious prayer on your behalf.So, some more suggestions. Tune out the humans (except for your pastor, he is speaking to you Biblically). Don't talk to them about this. Focus solely on listening for God's voice. Seek His peace through the Bible and devotionals. I know that God will show you the way out of this.------------------ "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Dear HGBrawner,Sorry, I was away for a short while to try to do something about the anniversary but it didn't turn out well at all.I have tried on one occasion to ask you to help me some months back but I couldn't seem to post even after several attempts. I was sure I did not suceed and when I tried to check the next few days, I couldn't find anything I posted nor your replies. That was strange - did I miss your post to me?A strange thing that happened in WS'A was that everyone said 'it was not their place to cast the stone' and WS has a lot of support from church and even my family. He would tell them what I was doing to him and the questions that I want him to answer and they would laugh with him! Can you imagine that the 'sinner' is now 'mollycoddled' while I am the one who 'should get over with it and not live in the past?'. I think they have taken the word 'about not casting the first stone' and about 'all are sinners', etc.. to the extent that I am the one who should be magnanimous and since God has forgiven me my sins, I should forgive my WS his or God will not forgive me my sins.WS has a twist on this and would say that I am now sinning with all my anger and violence and unforgiveness whereas he has repented. He runs to seek refuge in God and pray while I am left feeling all broken and bewildered. It seems that my WS is now rewarded with comfort and solace in Jesus' forgiving arms and I am hiding from God, licking my gaping wounds and trying to clutch onto my broken and bleeding heart with my bare hands, while simmering with anger. I am glad for God's peace in my WS's life and that he finally believes in God. However, I find it very hard to like, let alone forgive and live, with a man who makes a joke of my needing to know what really has gone on.I know I need to tune out the 'noise' from people who wants to feel good that they can forgive and not throw stones at my expense.We just started our first joint counselling with a professional counsellor and we will start individual counselling with the same before joint again. I really am at the end of myself - I keep throwing WS out and asking for a separation and divorce while WS threatens to kill the OP and then himself if that happens. So it drags on and it is darn hard to live with a reticent men who thinks he is a victim. It seems like his pain is more than mine. Thanks again for helping me and I am happy to hear that you know and recognise the voice of our shephard.God bless you take care from weep

Weep,I highly suggest reading (and doing the required work) Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil McGraw. The first few chapters deal with defining all your built up resentments and then working on how to deal with them, and finally to let them go. Believe me, I HAD alot of resentments, and in the midst of doing the exercises in the book I was extremely frustrated because they were not helping me to lose the resentments, BUT after a few weeks of pondering everything I was doing in the book, I woke up one morning, and I had inner-peace, and the resentments were totally gone! This book was the only thing that worked for me, please try it!Good Luck and please let me know if it works for you!

Dear Wifeofcop,Thank you so much for stopping by to offer me the book reference that has helped you. I will try to find the book at a bookstore. If not, can I buy it over the net? I have never bought anything over the net before as I was afraid of security issues - have you done that before?I do resent my WS for all the lies that he told me and for leading such a double life. I also resent him for using my past relationship which was abusive and try to even the playing field - I think it was below the belt and very irrelevant. Hence, I resent him for not being man enough to stand on his own two feet and admit everything that was wrong. I resent that he was like a little boy. Boy, I do need a lot of books.I have been very unhappy that the only counselling we got was against his will as he wouldn't go. But the pastors and church elder were very kind and came to our home all those times just so that we can receive counselling, particularly me.Now, we just started counselling by a professional marital and family therapist and I am not sure for how long he would go. But this time, I will go whatever.Thank you again for your kindness and help.I haven't 'met' you before. How is your life? I do pray that it is good.God bless you take care from weep

Hi Weep....I am so sorry that you are having such a difficult time right now. You have gotten lots of great advice, and I hope that it helps you.As for buying the book Relationship Rescue--I purchased it from Barnes and Noble (bn.com) on the web. I'm sure it's also available from amazon.com, borders.com, and any other book store either on the web, or at the stores themselves. I have done lots (way too much) buying over the web, and haven't had any problems at all. As long as it's a secure site, and any of the big ones are, you should be OK.Hope this info helps.....

Weep,You can purchase Relationship Rescue at any major bookstore or on the web, I have never had a problem purchasing on the internet.Also, Dr. Phil McGraw, the author, is on Oprah every Tuesday, and is very insightful. I have read alot of your posts and can identify with the resentment you have in your life. My H. is suffering from depression and in July gave me the "I love you but am not in love with you anymore" speech. He will not seek help for his depression or for our marriage. I have been in Plan A since July and it just wasn't working for me in the beginning. I discovered that I or we could not move forward until I dealt with and got over all the resentment I was harboring. I am now over the resentment, and although my Plan A is much more effective, my life with H. is still in limbo, but at least now I have some hope.Good luck to you, and please let me know if you purchase the book and have any questions with it. It was frustrating for me while reading it and doing the exercises because it didn't seem to be working, and I even stopped and put the book away for awhile, but it was then that I was really able to think things through and the resentment disappeared. I hope it works for you!!

Dear weep,I may not be of great help to you tonight. I'm not in the best place this week. You know, it's so easy for an outsider to tell you to forgive. They don't feel our intense pain. They didn't lose someone as important as you did. Their life hasn't been destroyed. You do have to ignore those people. Maybe they are trying to be helpful, but in telling you that its done and over with they are being very insensitive. Your WS may be clinging to them because it validates his feelings of remorse and his desire to make things right. I am sure that he has a lot of guilt to deal with.You can decide to let your anger go. Leave the forgivness to God. Let your anger go because it affects your health, your ability to be the best mother you can be and your chances at happiness. Ultimately, God will be the one to forgive. He knows whether your WS is truly repentent or not. You can choose to let the anger go so that you don't destroy yourself in the process. Do it for YOURSELF and your father. take care and know that you are in my thoughts and prayers often.cleo

Dear Hurtinginil,Thanks so much for dropping by with the reassurance. I will try Borders and if I can't find then I would buy through cyber.I do appreciate that other members have taken the time despite their own problems to read through mine and help me with great advice and even validation.I trust that you would know first hand how distant and painful the world is right now and how hollow life seems; I can hear echos through my head and heart and soul. Empty.I have started applying the advice given and will start to do more of the suggestions in the time ahead.I haven't 'met' you, have I? I am usually at other forums although I originated here. How is life with you right now? I have been having problems opening threads and those that I can open have been truncated but would try to open yours again.God bless you love from weep[This message has been edited by weep (edited December 22, 2000).]

Dear WifeofcopActually I thought I was only angry, bitter, etc., the feeling of resentment was something I thought I never harboured. But I think you are right there about the resentment. Resentment is a very unusual emotion and it is quite difficult to put a finger on. But I do know that I hate (I feel bad that I do but maybe it is a defence mechanism as I had an abusive first marriage) my WS.I seethe, simmer and these terms point to resentment. Thank you again for helping me with your insight and references.I hope your H comes out of the fog and begin to appreciate that in-love feelings can be created (there are books on these as you would know) and it takes two to do so. Commitment takes work.I pray that your H will love you more than himself and be accountable to the wife and family that he has been enrusted with.Godspeed to you God bless you love from weep

Hi again Weep! No, I don't think I've replied to any of your threads before. I lurk a lot, but don't have a chance to post as much as I would like, as I am busy with 3 little ones.Yes, right now, I am just trying to hang in there through the holidays. My H has been having EA/PA since Jan of this year, and Dday was April 2. Since then he's been waffling, and in the last couple of weeks has said he's made his decision to stay and work on our marriage. He says all the right things, but doesn't follow through with breaking all contact with OW. He says he's going to next week. At this point, it's pretty hard to believe anything he says, so we'll just have to see. What I struggle with is putting together a plan for myself, if he doesn't actually break it off. I can't go on much longer this way, and need to take care of myself and the kids.I am with you on the sincere heartfelt thanks to all of the others here that offer their advice and reassurance. With everything going on in their own lives, they care enough to tell me that I am a good person and am doing the right things.Weep, I truly hope you find peace and that you and your H can work through your issues and begin to restore your marriage.Take care---we all love you!

Dear {{{{{{{cleo}}}}}}}}Sorry to hear that you are not in a good place right now. I have tried to open your thread and others but have been unsucessful and there were incomplete posts and when I tried to post, it didn't reflect anything. That has been happening since I came to this site.I have a strong feeling that other websites have been trying to get in because I often open to other dot.com sites - commercial tactics.I hope all will be well now.Cleo, Your advice and perspectives are spot on and I feel very comforted to know that I am not this self-centred, unforgiving and unreasonable person. I told the others that they did not lose a beloved father as a result of WS' A. They comforted me that my beloved father accepted Christ on his deathbed. Even my siblings say that and that our beloved father has been disappointed by two SILs already, and that some people are not honourable but we have to be. I mean, how do I keep him as a H knowing what he did to indirectly or directly kill my father? I feel WS can really DETACH himself away from BLAME.Yes, too often people tell me that what is done cannot be undone, accept that and get on with life and not live in the past. They give me illustrations such as how their children disappoint them when they lie or didn't do well at school - HELP! I know they try to be sympathetic but I often say I am sorry, it is not the same as your H having sex with someone other than the wife for 2 years.Cleo, I know you are wise to encourage me to let my anger go and let God take over. I should do that. In the beginning I gave to God my hurts but when I saw my WS being given all the gifts by God such as the Holy Spirit and the support of others even as he says I am sinning and unforgiving, I became angry and hid from God. Then I was misguided to think that God would not listen to my prayers nor bless me because of this person I have become - but HGBrawner pointed out that God is merciful and to seek Him first and have His peace and then to let Jesus work on the anger and other aspects in me.I am beginning to see a consistent pattern to begin afresh, and will keep on till I find a sequence from the wonderful advice I have been given.At this point, I don't see a happy future with my WS except for our young baby. I am praying for God to work in my life and make it shine in all ways so that I become a blessing unto others in the future.I wonder if anyone can tell me why they still love their WS because I don't anymore. I feel good when he is not with me. I feel all the awful emotions when he is with me.Thank you for praying for me, I really appreciate and need that. I will pray for you, too. God bless you and shine upon you with love weep

weep,In answer to your question as to why we still love our WS, I can only share my reasons. I have spent almost half of my life with this man. He is the father of my 3 children. He has provided for me and is like a son to my parents. I can't imagine not being with him. Even through all of this nastiness, I have had moments where I could see the person that I fell in love with. I suppose that this is what I hold on to. Maybe if you could catch a glimmer of the man you fell in love with, you would be able to feel a little something yourself.I hope this helps.cleo

weep I've been away from here for a while but wanted to check in to see if you were doing better.Regarding forgiveness.....I do believe that God expects us to forgive the ones who sin against us just as He has forgiven us when we sin against him. If God, who is perfect and without sin, can forgive me for all the wrongs I have committed against Him, how can I withhold forgiveness from my husband? There are passages in Matthew and Colossians that confirm this. What I would encourage you to do is to talk with your pastor and check out the Bible for yourself. I also believe that forgiveness is a choice, not a feeling. When we make the choice, it doesn't mean that the offense didn't happen or that the offender is "off the hook" for what they did. It doesn't take away the pain or even the anger. It does, however, mean that we are making a choice not to use the offense as a weapon against the person who hurt us. We will never forget, but we will heal.I believe needing answers to some of the questions you have about the affair is normal and within reason. But I also believe that getting those answers won't make everything make sense or even make you feel better. You can get some of the pieces to the puzzle, but it will never become a picture that makes sense.Allowing anger to have too much power in your life gives satan a foothold. Anger will only bring more harm to an already broken spirit. There are constructive ways to deal with anger, but it is also a choice to move beyond it. There is a book called "Getting the Best of Your Anger" by Les Carter....you might want to check it out.------------------ "They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Dearest Weep,You have been such a help to me, in regards to generational sin and pointing me to several good sites (withoneaccord, etc.) I can't offer you advice, only encouragment, maybe some suggestions. Some things I've learned: 1) You cannot control another person (your husband). You can only be responsible for yourself. 2) My therapist said to "behave your way into feeling for your spouse." That is, do and say kind and positive things for your spouse, even if you have no real feeling behind it. Be as sincere as you can. I didn't believe it, felt it was fake and unnatural, but I tried it. It seems to help your own feelings if done on a consistent basis. 3) Keep going to therapy, if only for yourself. Can't hurt, can it? 4) Cleopatra has given you some great advice. Praying for "the witch" is a good one. One sinner is not any better than another. We are all in the same "sin boat". I found this to be helpful to me when I was working for a very abusive boss. For some strange reason, his behavior seemed to improve after I prayed for him. My wife prays for my OW although she has no affection for her by any means. 5) Beware the root of bitterness that germinates from the seed of anger! It is a stronghold of Satan that you must renounce and repent of. It can and will destroy you and your life! Bitterness and anger at my wife's affair and treatment of me enabled me to go down the destructive path I chose- it can only bring sorrow and despair. Deal with it, please, as best you can!!!!!!! Storm the gates of Heaven for help in this crucial area! I am praying for you. You have been so good for people here. Keep your chin up! We all care [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

With genuine affection and love,Rockaway

dear weep,I've been away, and I see I triggered a thread! I did sense a lot of anger in your posts.Dr. McGraw's writings actually started me on quite a journey of recovery, but not the one on relationship. I think the primary thing is YOUR healing. I read his book, "Life Strategies". I learned (a hard pill to swallow) that I taught others how to treat me, and I have and am learning to set boundaries.You said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>However, I find it very hard to like, let alone forgive and live, with a man who makes a joke of my needing to know what really has gone on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm surprised no one has commented on this. Absolutely! Is he stupid or just unrepentant?The "just forgive" attitude of the church you mentioned is WRONG. Easy for them to say, you are the one who is so hurt! I get angry just reading nonsense like that!I honestly think you should focus more on setting boundaries. Let him know how his joking makes you feel. That is cruel! And how he needs to EARN your trust and goodwill.FORGIVENESS DOES NOT MEAN WE ALL PRETEND THAT NOTHING HAPPENED! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE CHURCHES?I have studied the Word, back to the original languages and especially this issue. I was abused as a child and struggled with forgiveness all my life.This is what I've found:I need to let go of anger for my own sake, I started out praying for God's justice on my h and his OWs (as well as my abusers). But I didn't want to continue to live with anger. I started to ENJOY instead what the Lord had given me, starting with my two adorable kids.Biblical forgiveness requires the person who wronged you to REPENT. Hopefully with remorse, but at least to recognize the wrongs (plural) they did, and COMPLETELY CHANGE their behavior. Joking about your pain does not show a change!And the church should FIRST support the person who is wronged, not cause you more pain!weep, you are not powerless. Pray for wisdom and strength and decide what you need to do.You don't have to go to that church if they betray you in that way. You DON'T HAVE TO stay in your marriage if your h does not show a total change...A separation may help you truly focus on what you need to heal (and a big clue I learned - my h could not really help that much, I have been on a journey with the Lord and my friends here at MB)>But it is scary to realize God expects us to act, prayerfully, but to act.

Dear Cleo,I haven't been around much because of the holidays and other stuff, including computer problems. Please excuse my late reply.I am happy to hear that you have such a long history with your H and that you have been able to love him despite the A. I believe that you know the man he was and is and can be. I believe that he has the qualities in the first place to be a good man. Please pray that he falls deeper in love with you. I will pray for beauty in and outwith for you. My friend did that and she is positively glowing now - she had plastic surgery before because of her H's behaviour that led to a very low self esteem. She told me that she decided one day to ask of God to make her beautiful, especially in the eyes of her H. Her H recently told me that he has a beautiful wife - the first time I heard him say that!Cleo, I sadly acknowledge that I have married for the wrong reason this second time. The first time, I married a poor abused orphan out of compassion because he manipulated my feelings and told me that all his life he was treated so badly by everyone and rejected by most because of his background. This time I married a man who said that he has had a miserable life because he never really knew the meaning of happiness as experienced by me. That my world was bright and sunny and that he admired and longed to be with someone that has kind ideals like I have. He seemed to think it is a good way of life to attend to the needs of the disabled like I was doing with my first and ex H (also WS). But once we became married, any attention that I give, even to a disabled old man, is like a betrayal. I stopped visiting the homes.It is ironic that someone so possessive has become a betrayer in the most cruel and hurtful way possible in a marriage. I guess if I were to catch glimpses of why I married him in the first place, I had thought he was a responsible man who would have loved and lived well and helped others less priviledged than himself. Maybe it was all an act and show. I know I made a wrong choice again because the mask dropped soon after we married and I realised that all his time is for himself and what he likes to do and likes to eat and play. I believe that after my first abusive marriage and later a blanc marriage, my second marriage was good in comparison and in my usual optimistic way, I plunged into it and decided to be joyful and thankful. Until his A.I find an empty shell of a man - how can a man who doesn't seem to have a deep soul love another deeply? I am troubled by what I perceive as a lack of value in my spouse. He never treated my family as family before but now he is beginning to appreciate them.I am sad that I have squandered my life on poor choices and believed arrogantly that I could make another happy just because they were more needy and rejected and miserable than others. I should have married the happy, positive, successful, etc. type of man but I rejected all of the good men and settled for the unhappy ones.I know this sounds so pessimistic but it is the truth.Thanks Cleo for always been there for me. I hope you are better, are you?God bless you love from weep

Dear HGBrawner,Thank you so much for checking in again {{{{{{HGBrawner}}}}}.I have made a choice to forgive but have not completely forgiven my WS. WS is trying to protect me since day one of his A (according to him) and he would not want to talk about his A anymore because he feels that it is not good for me and the marriage. His story is so twisted and crazy and that is why I needed the pieces to understand what he is about. So, to me, WS is simply delaying the d-day cruel revelations as he jams the brakes on my recovery by saying 'it is nothing. etc.'.I am not sure if I need to forgive OP, especially after what she did to my father. Should my WS forgive OP after what she did to him (kniving, loss of job, broken marriage, etc)? According to Lewis B Smedes of "Forgive and Forget - healing the hurts you do not deserve", a person even has to forgive a parent who has sexually abused him/her as a child so that you are completely healed. I have been to three counselling sessions so far and it has been quite productive in that I am been assured that I don't have to just move on after the tremendous and senseless adultery. The counsellor is trying to help me make some sense of the situation and the parties involved. He has seen many cases of 'trap affairs' and even counselled aggressors. He believed that there are people who have an emotional imbalance that lead to certain behaviours. We haven't gone indepth yet.He also encouraged me to seek out the pastor who healed me of my emotional trauma at a healing ministry for spiritual ministry. I did and the pastor will counsel us in the future in this area. HGBrawner, Please pray for the pastor to be greatly annointed by God again to help us, especially the truth of the situation. During the first prayer meeting, the pastor prayed for my anger, confusion and all the curses and negative words that have been said of me. He was very annionted and said "If you need the answers, why don't you ask God? You can ask God to provide the answers." I was touched by God that he would even minister to a pastor my greatest problem. I am praying hard for God to reveal the answers in some way.Some time ago, I was even contemplating calling up the OP and take up on her offer to sit down and tell me the 'truth' of what transpired. My counsellor has recommended a separation to me and I am not sure whether he will tell my WS and I am afraid of WS's reaction since WS has always threatened to kill OP and himself whenever I asked him to separate. But the counsellor is right, I am kept in bondage to WS because of the things he say and do and as well as my baby. I am trapped in a situation where I don't have a choice. I will need to bring the next appointment to a nearer date because it is at the end of the month. I am unable to love my WS. Can one stay in a marriage without love?Blessings, from weep

Dearest Rockaway,So happy to hear from you - thank you.How is your situation since the last time? I hope you and your wife are not hanging by your fingernails anymore.Your encouragement and suggestions are a tremendous help. I will stomp the gates of heaven - actually it is more like doing the leopard crawl at a time like this. Just very jaded. But will try to concentrate on my baby and myself and behave more perkily. I understand that I cannot control another person and wouldn't want to. But it is scary to live with someone I can't trust anymore. especially as he is not forthcoming with the information. He is only revealing little morsels when he is pushed to and that is far worse than telling it as it is and all at once.I find it almost impossible to even try to be nice to him anymore because any nice behaviour from me will have him think and say that the marriage is healing and restoring and we can just proceed without any mention of the A at all. So if I were to ask him any other question later, he will be very angry and say that 'everything has been so nice lately and you want to spoil everything again'. To be honest, I really dislike him for that.If you read my reply to HGBrawner just above this, you will know that I am seeking as much help as I can, especially spiritual ministry because I feel so rejected as a result of the A. There have been threats and curses said of me and my baby during the A and after as well. So I need lots of prayers and ministering to help me heal. It has also been revealed that there were evil spiritual forces at play and they were being sought out by OP. I will seek a clarification from the pastor on this again. On one of my threads in POPW, I wrote of a premonition of my baby having an accident upon delivery and it happened but my prayers covered my baby and the tragedy did not play out.I know that the best thing is to surrender all to God and He will reveal the situation and truth in His timing. Meanwhile, I am just so comforted that so many wonderful and wise people care - and I hope that one day I can be a comfort to others as well. As I have been told "don't waste your sorrows".Rockaway, thank you again for your support, love and affection, they mean a lot to me.God bless and shine upon your life love from weep

Dear Schizzo,Thank you for 'starting this thread' [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. I actually needed some answers and encouragement for a while as I was 'hibernating' from others in real life but just didn't find much courage to start a thread at that time. I guess I wasn't sure if my problems were that huge as my WS is still with me and there are others whose WS have left and yet others with OC, etc.. But I recognise that I am far from healed.You said [quote weep, you are not powerless. Pray for wisdom and strength and decide what you need to do. /unquote] You are spot on about how I really feel. My counsellor has said that I am in bondage to my WS. The counsellor has suggested a separation to me. This is to help me be free of the negative presence of WS and to allow me to bond with my baby fully without unhappy distractions. etc.. WS hasn't been told and I am sure he would be totally against the idea.WS would often nag me about going to healing and prayer ministries and doing other things that don't point to togetherness, etc..I am now praying for God to help me be successful in a new area of work where I can work from home. WS persuaded me to quit my former great job and since D-day, I have somewhat regretted that but I guess it was for the best since I wouldn't be able to work anyway.I am also thinking of picking up other skills, and like you and Cleo have so wisely advised, things that will help me become the best mother I can be (such as sewing classes - I mean real snazzy sewing and draping [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

). I have now gone out alone to buy furniture for baby and lug home rather heavy pieces of cash and carry stuff. These outings and big as well as bulky item purchases have always been done together with WS. So he is now pissed off with me for doing such things alone! I really think that WS is not a very nice and deep person. He is academically excellent but I doubt that he is wise. So I think he is rather stupid when it boils down to simple everyday things and feelings. More like a conflict avoider. Probably his upbringing as his father was WS several times and he was brought up by an OW (his bio mother told me recently after the OW died). I often feel like giving up because I don't see much value in him. One pastor has advised that I can give him value so that he becomes the man I can love. I think I am just very tired now; can't even look after myself. He really is unrecognisable after the A and he refuses to see the stark reality of the damage he has done because it frightens him, I think. But the way he laughs and mimicks my questions are just so below the belt, it makes me want to throw up or hit him.The truth is, I don't like my WS anymore, don't love him anymore. He is very stubborn and thinks he can self-medicate. He threatens me about dying himself, etc.. I feel so nervous but am coming to a point where I tell myself to numb my fears. If WS were to leave in whatever manner, I know and pray that God will help my baby be whole no matter the marriage. At this point, I am only staying for my baby's sake. But with such a fragile WS, I am making preparations to become independant again.Schizzo, thanks again for thinking about my situation as you read my posts and for caring.God bless you take care love from weep

Dear Weep,Glad to see you back here. I think you had some of us very worried, given your fragile state of mind. Thanks for asking about us. We are not out of the dark woods yet, but I see sunlight filtering through the trees, rather than glowering clouds. Thanks to your suggestions concerning spiritual bondage, I believe I am on the right track. I have prayed prayers of renouncement and repentance. My heart no longer feels hopeless and helpless concerning my marriage and our future. Some feeling of affection are returning for my W, although I still deal with feelings of anger, rejection, and mistrust regarding her affair. Sometimes I have real trouble letting that go. She has proven her love for me and committment to our marriage in spite of a relapse I had with OW about a month ago. Could have (should have?)kicked me to the curb but didn't. She was so hurt. I feel that her loyalty has been tested to the limit and she has perservered. Her willingness to stay close to God, work on her faults, and be loyal and faithful to me make me want to give her my best, which means forsaking all others. I really don't want to be with OW. She has got her wish to be divorced. She is now single and "free". She carries the guilt of a destroyed marriage and a broken but unrepentant husband. I've discovered that she just wants a man, any man, to fill a huge need in her soul and she doesn't care if another family is destroyed to fill her need. She urged me continually to leave my family. I just couldn't do it, and now I am so glad I didn't! She continues to be a nuisance presence in my life because I work with her. I maintain a cordial relationship, but nothing more. She is persistent, tho, so I have to continually keep my guard up and not respond to overtures. I am putting myself under accountability to another Christian man who has been through a very similar situation and can offer up prayers and encouragment at a moment's notice, day or night. I am so grateful for an understanding voice in my life. I have discovered that I have a spirit of lust and now see that I have often attracted women with a similar spirit, something which has plagued me for years. This is something I still struggle with more than ever because my walls have been broken and because I am more aware of these things. Your situation sounds so bleak. I don't know what to say. Can you maybe take a "vacation" (read: separation) from your spouse and situation to help give you perspective? My parents used to separate us quarreling kids for a "timeout" which seemed to usually diffuse a volitile situation. Don't know if that is practicable in your situation tho. How does Plan A or Plan B fit here? What do you think? Blessings my friend. Let me know your thoughts. Rockaway, a.k.a. Pilgrim [This message has been edited by rockaway (edited January 08, 2001).]

weep,I'm glad to see you here again. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One pastor has advised that I can give him value so that he becomes the man I can love. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What did he mean by that???Probably the biggest thing I have learned through all this is that I can only really change myself. My spouse is who he is.So if he meant, you can see more value by looking and dwelling on the positives, I agree. But if he meant that you can infuse him or change him, WRONG.For me this crisis was about much more than the affair. It has caused me to reevaluate every area of my life, and I have felt the freedom Biblically to divorce if that seemed best. While children need their daddy very much more than society says, I'm not sure that staying just for the kids is really good for them.weep, you are a very smart woman. Have you ever studied the Word for yourself with good commentaries like Tyndale or Expositor's? I started doing that years ago, going back to the original languages and studying for myself.I don't want to take any of the benefits of healing/deliverance away from you if it helps you cope with all this. But what I found in the Word, and my current pastor teaches is much more in line with the teaching of Dr. McGraw (who I don't know whether he is a Christian).I am looking at my life and praying for wisdom and strength, knowing I must act. That to do nothing is still an action. I'm not waiting for the Lord to do it or for deliverance. I pray for wisdom to make decisions and strength to live them out.Most decisions are not clear moral commands - like don't steal, love your neighbor. If God has a blueprint of my life, he hasn't shown it to me. It seems rather, that I must make it up as I go and live within the principles taught in the Word.

weep, just wanted you to know your are always in my prayers. hang tough, okay.

Weep,I hope your holidays were peaceful. It seems that things here are getting better. Even though I am in recovery, I am reverting back to plan A while we do this 20 week course with Dr. Harley. It's a follow up to the weekend seminar. I do feel better when I plan A and I get better results. You know, I can tell just from our conversations that your are a kind person. I can understand your desire to help people less fortunate than yourself. It makes sense then that you would be attracted to a man that needs your help. You should not beat yourself up over those decisions. You have a special kind of love for your fellow man that not very many people share these days. You said that your H was interested, at one time, in helping the less priviledged. Could the two of you start visiting homes together? I know that it would not seem enjoyable at first but maybe after a few times, you could see some of the things you liked about your relationship before you got married. Dr. Harley describes it as forming new habits and how much we have to practice those habits before they become second nature. My H was politically active. He excluded me from this during the A. We have decided that this is something we can do together. It gives us some time together and we form common interests. Go back to the things you used to do together and try a couple of them. I am sure you will be hesitant but its worth a shot.Your life is not squandered! You have a family, however broken it may seem. It is not your responsibility to fix this man. That is his job. Your responsibility is to fix yourself and to be a good mother. You know, we are called to love like Jesus. That means unconditionally, nonjudgemental. I think this is the most difficult thing to learn. It would bring you great peace. Expect nothing from your H and love him unconditionally. You may be suprised. I will pray that God opens his heart.I am not sure how far you live from Minnesota but Dr. Harley is doing another weekend seminar this month and it was worth every penny for us to travel there. Have you considered this? He follows the weekend with a 20 week course on the HN/HN and Lovebusters. There is also a private forum here where you can talk with him directly. He answers every letter! I sincerely wish the best for you and your family. I know that you have been through a terrible ordeal and that it has been compounded by the loss of your father. I am so sorry for that. Weep, I feel that you and your H have a chance. You are a strong Christian. Use your faith to heal your marriage even if you feel despair right now.take care, cleo

weep,Hope you are ok. His joking about this awful thing that hurt you so bad is so out of line. Is he a mean person?Although we are taught to forgive, there has to be repentance. I still cannot believe he is joking about your pain! Makes me mad!I have always wondered if the story you posted, how the affair went on because of her blackmail was really true. Is he just painting himself as the victim?To threaten to take his own life is cruel and selfish. Have you read Dobson's book about tough love? I think some situations call for setting boundaries rather than plan A.

Dear Weep, I can feel the pain in your post,and feel like "weeping" myself after reading it. God bless you and your family.May you find true peace and forgiveness in Jesus Christ. Love and Prayers,beth

Dear {{{{Rockaway}}}}Sorry to hear of your problems.Thank you for your update, and I am very happy that you have seen the true colours of OW. I am also very happy that you have done the deliverances and that you recognise that a wise man cannot be in slumber as there are too many snares out there.I really am spiraling down and was rather out of control last month when WS was at his worst offensive (he uses attack as the best strategy) and kept at me about my failed past relationship and all the below the belt stuff to put me off his case. He would also blame his current state of stress on me even though his A caused him his job, etc.. I was climbing out onto the balcony ledge to jump when he pulled me back in time. Then I went to get a knife to slash the portrait painting of us. I really feel that I was in a hopeless situation. A separation would be good for me. The problems with that would be WS's objections and the finances and the house, etc.. But he is such a drain on my energy, he sucks all the goodwill out of me and I can't fathom how I am ever going to care for this man. He cares only about himself and how he is suffering and suffered the A. He feels that he really wants us or he will not be home.I am happy when he is not at home but once he is back, I am filled with dread. But it may be worth it for the sake of the baby. I still am not sure at this point.Rockaway, how important was it that you told your wife the whole truth about the A, as well as your feelings? Was it important for you to hear the truth from your wife about her A? Did you lie about anything? I am sorry to have to ask you these because I need to know that my WS is truthful about the A so that at least I will be able to start to trust a little of what he says now. For instance even his compliment that I have a nice figure makes me cringe and my 'liar radar' goes up and I still feel so ugly and second best since his A. I know I am not ugly but for your spouse to have an A, it makes me feel that there must be something special with the OP and that I am no longer special, exclusive and chosen. Even though he claims he was pissed drunk and all his defences were down. Rockaway, have you been drunk before? My counsellor said he was never in that situation and was therefore unable to answer that question. One member SS1221 answered that question before but he actually passed out and awoke to find he was being assaulted. Maybe this is irrelevant but WS puts so much weightage on this factor. He said that he has met much more attractive women but have been able to resist them because he was sober. I am especially troubled these past weeks because I am thinking about the future and whether I will be able to support my family if WS were to live out his threats to die or if we were to separate. Actually my personal expenditure is not a problem because WS doesn't give me a dime. I live on my savings or force him to pay my miniscule credit card bills or ask him for some money to buy groceries. He pays for the mortgage and I have to force him to go with me to shop for stuff for the home or myself if I want him to pay. He pulls an angry face often and it really is a drag to go shopping with him. There really isn't much left to kill this relationship. He agreed to give me some allowance when I agreed to quit my career to look after my lovely baby. He doesn't give me a dime although he has a new job.Rockaway, please pray for me that the Lord will bless my work and the business/es or output I embark on. I will pray for you and your wife to become healed and whole again. Maybe you can both rededicate your vows in church, have some new photos taken and start the real new millennium living God's will in your lives - peace, love and joy. Thank you.Blessings from weep

Dear {{{{Schizzo}}}}Thank you so much for your insightful comments.I have not read Tyndale or Expositor's but would try to do so in the future. Can you explain a little more about the books?How much did learning and then reading the bible in Hebrew and Greek (am I right?) help in your understanding of God's teachings and your growth as a Christian? As to the question about what the pastor actually meant about giving a person of no value some value by being with him, I think the pastor meant infusion and reflection (maybe like reflected glory or glow? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

)I would need all the prayers in the world to lift up the bible to read because I feel so depressed. Whenever I get my hands on the bible, I would try to read all I can at that one sitting because I know I would lose steam for a while after that. It really is that bad. I must not be discouraged - this is what I need to tell myself from now onwards. Yes, children need both parents to be and feel complete but I know there are exceptions. I need to pray about this. Maybe fast as well.Schizzo, I hope you can pray for me to receive God's wisdom and strength to live my live according to His Word and for my baby to be whole and my WS to be wiser. I will pray for you that God's will be done in yours and your H's lives and that you have peace, love and joy all the days of your healthy and prosperous life. What else can I pray for?Thanks amd Blessings from weep

Dear {{{{sing}}}}Thank you for your prayers, I really need and appreciate them.I have been very concerned about you and your sons. Now that you are not working, perhaps you can use the time to pray and fast so that God can lead your H to a new understanding and that the scales fall from his eyes and his heart becomes soft toward you and the boys. I would suggest that you ask your pastor to help you intercede because Jesus has promised that 'when two or three are gathered in my name...I will answer your prayers..." (book of Matthew). Thank you for caring because it helps to know that I am not alone and I need to rise above the situation from time to time till I can walk tall and upright again. There are many things that I have not written about because they really are quite horrendous and would complicate what is already a very twisted saga. All the counsellors have said that my case is very complicated. That must be the reason why God has given excessive Grace - Amazing Grace which I owe to God to testify.With love and prayers from weep

dear weep, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There are many things that I have not written about because they really are quite horrendous and would complicate what is already a very twisted saga. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I figured as much. I saw red flags going up in this thread and felt there was more going on than dealing with infidelity.Dare I ask if you are dealing with abuse? A man who can joke about your pain is not a loving man. I've been corresponding with a poster named Renae for months. She tentatively came to realize what she lived at home would be termed abuse, even spiritual abuse. He used the Word to put her down among other things. She posts in Other Topics Forum. Although usually at MB, we support each other in saving marriages, we have all advised her to leave and yet she hasn't. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I need to know that my WS is truthful about the A so that at least I will be able to start to trust a little of what he says now. For instance even his compliment that I have a nice figure makes me cringe and my 'liar radar' goes up and I still feel so ugly and second best since his A. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I needed to know everything except the sexual details.I am finally confident that my h is not keeping anything back. He confessed to both affairs without being caught and didn't give it to me one piece at a time like so many have had. I needed a basis on which to rebuild. If you think he is not being totally open, how can you begin to trust again?If he gives you a compliment, either 1. he really feels it or 2. he is being nice and trying to meet your needs. So I would just thank him. It was a big step for me when I began to feel they came from his heart.However, if you feel ugly and less special, as I did, this is an issue of your self esteem. You tell YOURSELF that you are ugly, etc. because of what he did.It is up to you to change your self talk. Replace those lies with the truth, each and every time you start thinking that way.Apparently the OW was quite beautiful, maybe better looking than I. (She was 17 yrs younger). THAT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT ME, ABOUT MY OWN BEAUTY. You must focus on building back your self-esteem. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>He agreed to give me some allowance when I agreed to quit my career to look after my lovely baby. He doesn't give me a dime although he has a new job.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>weep, it doesn't sound like a marriage to me. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Since he is responsible for child support, you might do better financially without him and maybe you should take out life insurance on him if you are really worried about him taking his life.I know it sounds cold, but as I told Renae, THERE IS NO SHAME IN DOING WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR PRECIOUS BABY. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I have not read Tyndale or Expositor's but would try to do so in the future. Can you explain a little more about the books?How much did learning and then reading the bible in Hebrew and Greek (am I right?) help in your understanding of God's teachings and your growth as a Christian? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They are different commentaries that go in detail through the Bible book by book. I cannot read Hebrew or Greek, despite my facility with languages (I do speak Spanish and Portuguese). It was with the help of the commentary that I could take apart the original word by word.The sad thing is that in the church I used to go, they referred to anything like this as relying on man's wisdom rather than God's. I now realize this means the preacher claimed to have a perfect link to God as the Holy Spirit showed him exactly what the Word meant. And so many times it went against the clear meaning of the verse in its context!Please don't add this as another reason to feel guilty! I did it before the kids came and I enjoyed it.I only mentioned it because I think you are in the same kind of church I was and it may be making it harder for you to act right now.For instance, one thing I was taught was that God had a perfect will for our lives that included all the details (well, maybe except for the color shirt I wear today). So if we pray hard enough, he would show us and we should always have "a peace about it" regarding life's tough decisions.I just haven't found any of that to be true in the Word or in life. Not making a decision to leave my h is a decision to stay. There is no neutral place. My h is facing a really difficult decision of leaving his job right now. We can't know for sure which is the best path, only that we followed the right process while praying for wisdom. The peace is always in hindsight.And I have more peace about my life knowing I don't have to get it exactly right. That God knows my heart and I am continually striving to gain more wisdom and become more like Christ. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As to the question about what the pastor actually meant about giving a person of no value some value by being with him, I think the pastor meant infusion and reflection (maybe like reflected glory or glow? )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In that case, he may get some glow, but he will be sapping it from you. A person of no value is a person of no value unless he falls on his knees and finds his value in Christ AND LIVES IT! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Whenever I get my hands on the bible, I would try to read all I can at that one sitting because I know I would lose steam for a while after that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's how I was approaching my workouts, but I'm enjoying them now. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I tell you what, read one of the gospels. Read about Jesus as if you had never heard any of it before. And set the timer, only let yourself read for 15 or 20 minutes. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yes, children need both parents to be and feel complete but I know there are exceptions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Definitely. My mother stayed with a man who abused me for years starting when I was 3. But it doesn't have to be that blatant. She's a little girl, right? Would you choose this man TODAY to be her father?My husband has put me through hell. He has had a job with 70% travel for 7 years. While I was home doing the work of two parents, he was going 1st class all the way, all over the world. He didn't give any of himself. If we ever went on a date, he would take calls on his cell phone. This is obviously the short version and there are many ways I didn't meet his needs.Then I find out that for 18 months our marriage had been a lie. There was one OW for 6 months, she broke it off, and then the second OW for 4 months when he chose to confess.I was devastated. But his actions afterwards sound way different than what you are living. He was clear that he wasn't in-love with me and he went through withdrawal for a few months.So it was not an overnight change at all. Today, I really believe he sees me and the kids as what really matters in life. He has not so much told me as shown me by his life.He admits that he went looking for an affair in both cases because of his own unhappiness. For 6 months in one case and 3 in another, he used his travel to make it easy to keep it all from me. He knew it wasn't right but he chose EACH TIME to pursue the affair. He admits that he chose to do wrong.I see the change in his life and have some understanding of what was missing before. I don't see how I could move on with him without his honesty and the changes I have seen.While I still wonder if he can be the "love of my life" in every sense, I could not TODAY choose a better father for my two little ones.Wow, this has turned into a book and I'm late to pick up my kids. I hope something I said may help you. You asked what you could pray for - wisdom to sort through the job options and that the Lord would open the doors. I will pray for the Lord to also give you wisdom to really see your own situation objectively and strength to act as you realize what you need to do. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

cindy [This message has been edited by schizzo (edited January 10, 2001).]

Weep,Thanks for the prayers. I am doing so much better. The last few days I have been so at peace. Think it is more than school here finally started after 3 1/2 wk break. I have been reading the Praying Wife & Parent books, they have helped, thanks for turning me to them. My sons are okay, except OS GPA, he was over his head in 2 classes in the fall, & is the classic underachiever, but maybe he will finally get on track, H didn't go ballistic like I thought he would when I finally showed his OS grades.I don't have any advice for you. All I have is prayers. Glad you are seeing a counselor. Hope he helps. Remember you & your baby are the most important things in this mess, your H has to live with what he & OP did. It is not you, is him. Prayers as always for you.

Dear {{{{Cleo}}}}Thank you for your prayers.Very happy to hear that you and your H are almost out of the woods. I think the history that you both have together plays a part but the fact that you can love him and he can feel the love you have for him makes him realise that this is a woman worth working for. I wish you Godspeed and that you both fall in love again and laughter, mirth and gaiety fill the air. I wish you gobs of happiness and rainbows all your long healthy and prosperous lives.Now about moi, sigh:I believe that my WS is only slowly confronting issues after I told the counsellor and WS that he has avoided all the bad feelings about what he had done so that he wouldn't feel like a bad person. I really need a kick and start becoming more Christ-like. Problem is, WS would probably say - now that you have recovered, we don't need counselling anymore! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Sometimes in the pits of my despair, I sense that I may have a lot of things to achieve and WS, being extremely possessive and chauvinistic, is a hindrance to my potential. So, his A has made me lose the love and aching for approval from him, and I can actually go forward in life to achieve the things I am capable of instead of toeing his line. Cleo, I read in the bible about the talents and how one should not keep talents buried but to multiply them. I hope I am not sounding too proud and vain but I have been told by many that I have been given talents, and some have said "too many till you are confused and even sidetracked". Most of what I put my mind to do, I do well, whether the arts or technology or management or communications, or teaching or .... My WS is academically and corporately successful and he doesn't see the need for me to do anything groundbreaking. Now, I know and feel differently. Please pray that God reveals to me what I am best at - I am hoping to write some books, start a business/es, etc.. I hope to be very successful so that I can contribute to missionary work, children causes, and maybe the work by the Harleys should they want to go nonprofit and campaign for fidelity and committed marriages and pre-marital counselling. It is scary to share my dreams in a public forum but what is life without goals, especially now that romantic(?) love has died?I don't know how WS can stomach volunteer work [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. He hasn't done any with me, just observed my brother and I. He is like a very clean, easily putoff boy. Wouldn't even help me to do my girdles two days after my caesarian because he doesn't want to see pain. He ran off and I shouted after him that I really need his help. He finally came back and when he saw my plastered abdomen said 'urgh'. I also recalled him saying that a very self-centered nephew of his is excellent because there is nothing wrong about putting oneself first above all else.I really thought they were just opinions and not a way of life [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I am so wrong. I think I will start off first when I am healed and in a positive mood (wouldn't want to send out negative vibes) and he is open to joining me later. Cleo, I am excited I am getting ideas already. I wanted to teach the computers in the beginning and personal grooming, but I think I can also take up sewing and hairdressing and teach those and cut hair, too. Too ambitious? I used to help organise exhibitions of works by the disabled - maybe can do that again. Will think 2003? Is it too far off? Will pray about that. Hey, I am complaining and going on and on about how horrible he is and how good I am. Actually, I am too darn soft and weak and submissive and laid back. I should do well to just get up and braze the world [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

That is a love buster to WS but then I don't even know or care anymore. I also need to earn my keep now or my savings will dry up soon. Cleo, if you detect delirium - it is coffeeee!Hey, and I changed to a new browser because the old one was so problematic, so I just read your post.Blessings and God shine upon your marriage love from weep

Dear Weep,I am praying that God will give you a clear sense of direction. I am hoping that you can somehow step away from your situation and be able to look at it an your options from a different, clearer perspective. Your marriage sounds so tense and chaotic and issues just don't seem to be resolving.To answer your questions. I rarely drink. Alcohol just doesn't taste good to me, though I do like to get a good buzz going. However, I used to get drunk in college, and more recently when W told me of her affair I got royally blitzed to numb the pain. I was at a loss and didn't know what else to do. Then when I left my former job, my co-workers threw a big party for me at a local pub, and I admit I got wasted there. Your husband is right, alcohol will definitely loosen your normal inhibitions and you will do things you wouldn't normally do if you were sober. I left my going away party with two hickeys and memories of recieving a french kiss from somebody. I am ashamed of my behavior now as I look back, but then, I was having the time of my life. Your husband's drunk may well have led him to do things he normally wouldn't do. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, without getting into great detail is the best policy for revealing affairs. Because my wife hid her affair for over 4 years, our marriage deteriorated because of her guilt feelings, made her pull away from me even more. I was wondering,"What's wrong with me? She doesn't want to be with me, or do things with me, she doesn't want sex, I can't please her anymore. She pushes me away and acts like she doesn't even like me." I had no idea she was hiding a big secret from me. I'm convinced you can't keep secrets and expect a marriage to thrive. If you know the truth, you can work with it. If you don't the truth, you are working with one hand tied behind your back. It's hard to resolve anything thataway. It was important to me know the painful details of her affair. I wanted to ascertain the extent. Was it a hormonal fling? Yes. Was it romantic? Yes. She confessed to asking him if he would leave his wife for her. OUCH!!! Like you, it was hard for me to think that I wasn't special, exclusive, chosen anymore. It was hard for me to imagine another man with his hands on my wife's body, doing things reserved only for me, and she was actively, enthusiastically participating in this betrayal! Why stay? But like you I had a nice home, a wonderful child, financial responsibilities, wife's suicide threats, I couldn't just chuck the whole ball of wax. I did not confess my affairs until after discovery. My wife found a love letter I had written under the floor mat of my Lincoln when she was cleaning my car. The other discovery was when she picked up the phone and overhead me talking to OW from a phone upstairs in another part of the house. These were revenge affairs so in a way I wanted to be discovered, but I sure didn't like the feeling of being caught with my hand in the cookie jar! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I felt then that I had nothing to lose by lying so I told the truth to any questions put to me, though I did keep my answers brief and did not go into great detail. More later. I've got to get to bed. Hang in there! Rockaway [This message has been edited by rockaway (edited January 11, 2001).]

Dear Schizzo,My WS actually is a very reticent person and keeps to himself a lot. Very self-centered and I think either over or under confident. Men thinks he is over confident; women thinks he is underconfident. I think he is just quite shallow. It worries me that he seems to lack a deep soul. I think his inhumane behaviour towards me could be patterned after his own father's. The counsellor said that often family patterns take over once a couple settle into a marriage. His bio mother told me that her WS did not give her any care and concern when he took on a OW for the rest of their marriage. She is very bitter because she had to look after six children and he wouldn't give her a dime, even if she wanted to spend on female sanitary stuff, outside a tight grocery budget. Unfortunately, I only know this last year when the OW died and his bio mother started pouring out all her sorrows. So, my WS must have learnt that sort of behaviour (?).His own mother said that my WS is confused about who his real mother is and that he is very stubborn and chauvinistic, believing he is in the right all the time. Hard nut to crack, distant, stingy (she said miserly). Sounds like she doesn't like him very much. She said she wanted to abort him because she was sick of her WS's As.So, maybe it really is necessary to look at his upbringing to see the product that he is now. Unkind to his wife. I think he is trying different tactics to get a certain result. He started off sobbing and sorrowful. He became angry once my initial shock and denial and prayers stopped and I asked him about the A. He became increasingly fierce and loud and would wake up baby just to get me off his case. He later said that I dare be angry and fierce with him because he is too kind. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. He even said that he slept with the OP because he was too kind (d-day).He laughs and then dramatises and make faces and mimicks me when I ask him questions - to buy time? to avoid answering? He also tells others and they all laugh with him - to make the poor 'sinner' (as he calls himself) feel less bad, I think. So, that was why I got mad and voilent and lately, I just find myself caged in by his disappointing childish and stupid antics.He said he was a victim and insisted on the blackmails - he said Jesus saw everything. Now I am more hesistant to believe his words when he used God's name because he has been crafty and slippery, using verbal maneuverings to get out of a tight spot.My counsellor has suggested a separation because of the emotional blackmails and also WS is geeting more and more defiant. He hit me a few times on my legs, after I hit him, and threatened to hit me when I asked more questions. Once, I called my siblings to my home and they questioned us and packed my stuff but WS pleaded with them. I stayed but the counsellor is noticing that WS is getting defiant. That night, WS punched me hard twice in his sleep and said it was a nightmare. I punched him back.Prior to his A, I have been cowed so often; forced to change my clothes when he disapproved of them (when we married, I stopped modelling and he made me wear Victorian looking clothes), and I cannot even talk to someone of the opposite sex above the age of 17. He would be very angry and give me the cold and silent treatment and glare at me or the poor kid. He would praise my capabilities at work then condemn them. I became very edgy and nervous and would not want to rock the boat.I remember how we went on a long vacation and he made me pay a certain percentage of it as calculated against our wages. He wanted me to pay more and I refused. His annual salary far exceeds my annual because of bonuses but he insisted on calculating based on monthly. I felt very disappointed, especially when he would boast to me "See, I make all your dreams come true. Remember I took you to St Moritz's - you are lucky".I used to let remarks like the above go but one time I was so disappointed at the sham, I burst out "We took ourselves to St Moritz". He cried foul.I think he is delusional. I am deluded. When I worked, I helped pay the mortgage, and other stuff. I really think it is an unfair marriage. He thinks I have it real good. He likes to put a show that he is the man, I think, and come to think of it, how can he really live with the fact that those were lies (ie, he fully paid for the trips, etc) and still not feel his conscience pricking?You see, I am so sad and disappointed. He said he had a sometimes physically and verbally abusive relationship with OP. I know there are so many things that should not have been and is in this marriage, that is why I cannot love him because of the way he treats me and the way he is. I haven't read Dobson's Tough Love but I have heard it is really good. In fact, the elder in my church recommended this book to us. I haven't been reading too much lately because I am editing a book to be published this year. But will need to really get back to reading. ThanksSchizzo, and I am only replying this post, haven't gone back to reread the other. Sorry, this is so long.God bless you take care from weep[This message has been edited by weep (edited January 11, 2001).]

Dear {{{{alone1}}}},Thank you for your prayers and best wishes. Yes, I really need them and need to find forgiveness in Jesus Christ. I am all broken up just as most everyone on this forum is. I hope you are well, are you? Please let me know what I can do, such as prayers. I haven't really been following the posts as I was away and had computer problems and am now very dissected and discouraged. I know with God and all of your help and support, I will get better and be able to post to others again real soon. SO, if I missed your latest, please don't be offended.God shine upon your life, with love from weep

Dear Weep,I want to send you this prayer. It is a song by Andrew Culverwell. Hope it soothes your soul like it does mine.Cover me Lord with your presence. Cover me Lord with your righteousness. Cover me Lord with your holiness. Lord Jesus cover me.I need your protection From danger and harm. Shelter me safe In Your strong loving arms. Help me to see There's no cause for alarm. Lord Jesus cover me.Under Your shadow I won't be afraid. Cover me Lord Till the storm blows away. And then in the heat Of a beautiful day Lord Jesus cover me.Lord Jesus cover me.Lord Jesus, cover Weep today.Rockaway, a.k.a. Pilgrim

Weep, I could spen an hour writing to you. I am so sorry that I can't do that right now. I think that I have shared this bible verse with you before. You seem especially low today. Read Psalm 143. It was my mantra when I was feeling especially low. Take care of yourself Weep. cleo

Dear Schizzo,Thank you very much for your very perceptive reply. Sorry that it made you late. Please don't be late for the kids again.I really feel very very vulnerable to have to speak about the problems and wishes in my life. I feel very very sad and insecure that I am taking up valuable time of others because I can't seem to come to a grip of my situation. I have never been on this side before as I have always been the agony sister to my friends and strangers. It makes me feel very selfish and self-centred to take up your time. Are my problems very clear to all of you or are they very sketchy and makes little sense? To me, it is the latter.I am always worried that the OP might be lurking because the OP called everyone up, including myself to check the pulse of our marriage after d-day to see if d is on the cards.So, I have kept a lot of other information under wraps because they are too personal and in many cases even cruel. I told WS that he was very cruel and he said that 'inadvertently I was'. I mean if I never had a strong sense of self before, I would surely have gone under during a very difficult pregnancy where I was hospitalised on one occasion. WS was uncontactable all through my difficult pregnancy whether he was in here or away. I depended on my colleagues to look after me. There were other excruciatingly painful times in my pregnancy when he laughed and make horrible remarks about my body. I am stopping at one with this man. Fortunately, my colleagues and other professional models were very surprised that I looked even better pregnant, and that gave me a lot of morale booster.When I asked WS why he was so cruel and denigrating during that time, he defended that he was only teasing and joking. I cannot forget those remarks. I know a lot of girlfriends and even men tell me that he is stupid to say those things - very immature and childish. Another spanner in the works.Schizzo, I know that this is not the man for me but I have made choices, made a deathbed promise, and mainly because of my baby, that I am even trying to seek the truth. If there were no ties, I would have kicked him out for other reasons besides the infidelity which is actually the final straw. I try to live a nonjudgemental life even as the insult or wrong is jabbing my eye and I let my H had his way. I think he took my kindness and steadfastness for granted. He said that he wants the wonderful old me back as he missed her. I would never in a million years be such a 'superwoman' for him again. I am sad to not be in love with a man because it is a special feeling that intoxiates the mind and heart and soul with the tinkling sound of music and mirth. My heart goes 'thud' and I often have to carry it in both hands [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.Schizzo, I am sorry to hear of your childhood and that is a reason that I have to pray very hard and be very watchful about. After all that I have seen and heard, I cannot simply deny outright unless I am certain that he doesn't have those wicked inclinations. I will be extra watchful.I understand perfectly what you mean when you say a new man. I am disappointed that WS is very irresponsible with my welfare but that would spur me to work again. Schizzo, do you want to pray for a non-travelling or less-travelling job for your H? You can be very specific about the working environment in your prayers.Thank you so much for listening and I hope I am not wasting time and space. I am already embarrassed at all this dissection of my life. I just wish I can hurry along and disappear.God bless you love from weep[This message has been edited by weep (edited January 12, 2001).]

Dear Rockaway,Thank you so much for your replies. They help me greatly in understanding that recovery is about the truthfulness and transparency I believe is necessary to build on. I also get a feel about what being drunk is like [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Thank you so much for the prayer song. It really struck a chord with me and I have written it in the inner front page of my filofax. I had a premonition of my baby being dropped on the journey from the operating theatre to the nursery in the early months of pregnancy. I prayed for that horrible thought to go away and for peace. Instead a distinct thought came to me again and again till I kept praying for Jesus to cover my baby every step of the way. The elder in my church said it is a revelation because the accident happened when my baby was wheeled out of the operating theatre and as soon as the door slid open, an unmanned (the male nurse actually shoved it hard forward and released the unoccupied adult mental bed) bed hit my baby's cot hard and it spun out of the midwife's hands. The midwife was the most experienced at the hospital and she caught the cot and the baby.My WS witnessed this first hand. He was astonished that God revealed this accident to me - which shows to him that God is real. Furthermore, I was praying with him about this aspect every night he is here and not travelling. So, he was stunned.One lady told me that when God reveals something like this, He wants you to leave it to prayers and show you how He can deliver you out of it. I actually had a vision of the adultery and flashes of adultery stuff but trusted H too much to be WS, so I brushed them aside - didn't pray about it at all until my sister called me one night to say that she feels that my H will be drunk and there will be a wicked temptress and prayed with me.Rockaway, I am uplifted by your prayers and the prayers of sing, cleo, cindy, HGBrawner, hw, taj, OOOO, alone1, and others, because I managed to read OOOO's post and post a reply!. I also reflect on how God is the author and finisher of our lives and how He is the one who will be with us all through our lives, through thick and thin and He is the only one who knows every detail about us and our hearts. Surely that is enough. His grace should be sufficient.God shine upon your marriage love from weep[This message has been edited by weep (edited January 12, 2001).]

Weep,We've all needed to be on the receiving end sometimes. Please don't apologize. If I didn't want to spend my time this way, I wouldn't. Plain and simple.You sound a lot like me in the self-esteem issues. On the one hand you KNOW that you are very lovely and capable and yet you feel down about yourself when you don't get the approval/love from your h.There was something else you said though now I can't find it that rang a bell. I feel free for the first time because I don't need his approval anymore. One of the results of learning of the As was that I took charge of my own self-esteem.I am going to a Christian therapist and working on the past to rebuild from scratch. He has stressed many times that I need a stable, loving environment for this journey.I think that is true for you too. Harley teaches plan A (very one-sided) for 6 months. If your h does not change his ways, you may want to read up on plan B. You would have to stand firm, though, as it sounds like he will try anything to avoid that. My mom and step-dad were like that. She tried many times to leave him.I have learned in this last year that it IS possible to stand alone with my faith in the Lord. My h is the only peson I have and I faced single motherhood without him. I don't have loving parents or aunts or even friends, nobody.This realization alone caused my self-esteem to shoot up. I AM a wonderful person (whether h or anyone else thinks so) and I can learn to feel God's love. I can also give myself the reassurance I need.Although not Christian, I have a good tape series on self-image. It helped me through some tough spots. I'll find it and give you the name, if you like.Tell me more about your baby...BTW, I've never had premonitions. I think some people have this gift?