Pointers invited: confessing to BS - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I know that everyone here would support my telling my wife about my A, so that recovery might have a chance. I plan to do that this Friday night (1-12). If anyone would like to share tips or pointers from your own experience, I would welcome them.The basics I plan to keep in mind are choosing a comfortable setting in the home, being gentle, displaying sincerity, not dwelling on morbid details, trying to answer what questions I can, being there for as long as it takes, offering to take the lead in securing a counselor, inviting her to choose a friend to talk with if she wishes, and talking over how we will handle some practical things, plus invite her to respond later--after she's had time to think things over-- if she wishes with what she feels, as opposed to expecting a response just then. I do not plan to be defensive about the A or make any inferrence that she is partially to blame (she isn't, of course). FYI, there are no children living at home.Ivory

Ivory,I don't envy you the task you have before you. But it sounds like you have a pretty good grasp of it. Also, while I admire your taking responsibility for your actions (and I do believe that you and you alone are responsible for your actions), it would be counterproductive to not point out that it's highly likely that your wife isn't meeting your emotional needs and has contributed to the environment that has allowed you to enter into an affair. Don't get me wrong, I think that for now, you need to take full responsibility. But in the long run, you and she are going to have to discover and fix the things that led you down this horrible path.Also, be prepared for the worst possible reaction. Your actions will hurt her deeply, and your honesty now, may not mean a thing. At least not until she's had some time to recover from the initial shock and deep hurt. But for God's sake, DO NOT let that deter you. You owe it to her and your marriage to get this out into the open. It's the ONLY way.Good luck, and my prayers are with you and your family. ------------------ Bill ~~~~ Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Ivory:That's an okay game plan, though I have some suggestions. To be honest, you just can't be sure how it's going to go with your W, how'll she react. You should be prepared for hurt, anger, bitterness, LBing, all the rest. She may immediately insist on a divorce. You should also be prepared for acceptance, calmness, love, etc. She may hug you and cry. Either could happen.Your "list" is curiously detached, like you were preparing for a meeting with the CEO. Perhaps it's just that your emotional life doesn't translate into your writing, but it struck me as oddly remote. I assume that you've thought this all through, that you really WANT to make a go at a life with your W? If you're just doing something because you think it's the "right thing," or out of some sense of duty, she'll sense that right away.I think my primary comment on your list is that you should do whatever SHE asks you to do. You say that you're "not going to dwell on morbid details," and will "answer what questions [you] can." I think that most BSs on the board would say that you should answer EVERY question she has, in as complete detail as she wants it. If she wants morbid details, give them to her.Further, I can't think of any questions that you "shouldn't" be able to answer. If there are some (like "why did you do this"? "what were you thinking"?) you should start working through your feelings about them so that you DO have good answers for her. It's not going to help her to hear "Uh, I dunno" when she asks why you had the affair, or to hear vague stuff about ENs that you may not even know you had not being met. Again, Ivory, and maybe it's just your style of writing, what I've gotten most from you is an emotional blankness, as though you really didn't know why the affair started, or what was wrong with your marriage that might have prompted it. You need to figure that stuff out, if you haven't.You should tell her that you love her, don't want a divorce, and will do anything to work on your marriage (if that's the truth). You should tell her that you'll never see or talk to the OW again (if that's the truth). You should tell her, above all, that you're very sorry for the pain you're causing her, and that you'll spend the rest of your life trying to make up for it (if that's the truth).Good luck, Ivory. I know it's not easy. But it may be some comfort to know that you have the easier part in the conversation. You'll feel better afterwards, she'll feel dramatically worse. Take care.

Ivory,One more thing. Get your butt to the library or bookstore and pick up "Surviving an Affair" by Willard Harley. You and she should read that book.------------------ Bill ~~~~ Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: The basics I plan to keep in mind are choosing a comfortable setting in the home, being gentle, displaying sincerity, not dwelling on morbid details,Well, if she wants to dwell on morbid details, you may have to.I agree that you sound a little mechanical here. If I could give you some advice for the conversation, I think I would tell you to cry.I also think, in reading back over your story, that I am a little concerned about the motives here. On the face of it, you are telling your W this so that your lover, who you have been talking to daily and have tried unsuccessfully before to break it off with, doesn't have to move 3 hours away. Are you really sure this affair is over?I think it would be better to tell your W after the relationship was really over, so you could tell her honestly that you were going forward. And I think your lover should move out of town with her husband, and give both of you the best chance to get on with your lives. Maybe your lover can't save her marriage, but she can do yours a lot less damage from a far.[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited January 10, 2001).]

I agree. And remove all guns from your household. My sister-in-law shot herself in the heart within 5 minutes of confession. That is how serious this is. MAJOR PAIN. My H tried to blame me. It does not work!! My prayers are also with you and your wife. God Bless------------------ Deb

I agree with MikeC2 and Taxman it sounds like you are writing a grocery list.From your most recent post you are still in contact w/OW so affair is not over. How about waiting till there is no contact before telling her? It would seem just a bit more sincere.

I think you've got your bases covered. I asked once, what they did and where they met. He asked me "do you really want to know details like that?" I thought about it for a few seconds and opted out. I couldn't handle any more images than were spinning in my head. She may ask those questions. I would give her the opportunity to not hear the answers to the gory details. I mean you want to know everything and at the same time you don't. Sometimes there is just too much information. I am sure that others will disagree. I just didn't need to hear where they did it, how often and what were the positions. It would have been too much for me to get past.

Taxman, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You should be prepared for hurt, anger, bitterness, LBing, all the rest. She may immediately insist on a divorce. You should also be prepared for acceptance, calmness, love, etc. She may hug you and cry. Either could happen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"Be prepared for..." certainly. But, knowing my wife to whatever degree I know her, the more likely reaction is tears, sadness but no insistance upon divorce and no angry outbursts. Through these days of moodiness and depression, when she has received almost no emotional support from me, she has remained cheerful and upbeat by choice and has continued to love me as a decision. I do not fail to understand the depths to which this will hurt her, but I don't expect an extreme outburst. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Your "list" is curiously detached, like you were preparing for a meeting with the CEO. Perhaps it's just that your emotional life doesn't translate into your writing, but it struck me as oddly remote.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The latter statement is somewhat the case. I am entering into this sincerely, 'though honestly about where things are at the moment. Yes, I sincerely am sorry for what I have done and the pain and damage it will cause. My emotions are turned around, of course, in that they have been involved with OP not W. By faith, if not yet by heart, am I entering into this that with the help of outside counsel and efforts on our part the marriage might be recoverable. Think about it: one's heart (emotions) are with OP during and immediately after an affair. Does one wait until that is different before telling W? Not from what I've read here. But then that means that one deals with W while one still is dealing with split emotions. So maybe that's where the detachment you sense comes from. All I know to do is be as sincere and gentle and loving as I can and say, "This is what happened...this is where I am right now (both bad and good)...my head and heart may be screwed up, probably are...here is where I hope I and we can go from here." <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think that most BSs on the board would say that you should answer EVERY question she has, in as complete detail as she wants it. If she wants morbid details, give them to her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No! That is NOT what I pick up from this board, in fact. Also I have read elsewhere on the web on simialr sites--secular as well as Christian--and have read the opposite of what you are saying. The ongoing problem is not the affair--as this and other sites say-- it is the marriage. The affair is a tragic symptom of the ongoing problem. Dwelling on morbid details distracts from the real issue. If a counselor tells me I need to answer every detailed question (what, when, where, how often, and so on) I will. Ivory[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 10, 2001).]

Ivory, you are doing the right thing. As a BS, I don't have a lot of advice for you except for a couple of things.Tell the truth---do not try to stretch the truth on anything. Answer any questions she may have---she may ask for details, and if she does, give them to her. It is difficult and it will hurt, but it needs to be done, if she asks for them.As it was mentioned in by a few others, be prepared for any type of reaction. She will most likely be shocked and people react differently to news such as this. You and your wife will be in my prayers!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: <re:honesty> No! That is NOT what I pick up from this board, in fact. Also I have read elsewhere on the web on simialr sites--secular as well as Christian--and have read the opposite of what you are saying. The ongoing problem is not the affair--as this and other sites say-- it is the marriage. The affair is a tragic symptom of the ongoing problem. Dwelling on morbid details distracts from the real issue. If a counselor tells me I need to answer every detailed question (what, when, where, how often, and so on) I will.I don't know how you can be ready for this conversation and not even have a nodding acquaintance with Harley's Rule of Honesty. I can give you 5 citations from his writings on this site saying that you need to answer every question she asks with complete honesty.You did not address my questions about your motives here. Are you going to tell your W that there will be NO contact from here on in, and stick to it? Or are you just taking this step to keep your lover from moving away?

Mike,What would you like for me to do---postpone it? Bomb away at my motives if you wish. They are not so that OP will not move away. They are not for some benefit to me. Yes I will tell her there will be no contact. Yes I will stick to it. What else can I tell you?As for honesty, sorry...I still don't agree that getting into great detail about lover trysts on the same night as the confession is productive. I'll re-read on the Harley Q&A and Articles pages, for your sake. I did say that I would do it if our counselor suggested it. Presumably by that time all heads will be a little cooler, a little clearer, and perhaps it won't even be an issue. The tone of your last paragraph was just a bit much.Ivory [This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 10, 2001).]

Ivory, I would think that you would want to take advice from those of us that have been through this.The day I found out about my H's A, I asked questions for probably 10 hours. It is in my personality to want to know details of everything. It was not counterproductive, but rather gave me a good idea of what was going on up front. Your W may not want to know details, but I did, and wouldn't have let it rest if he wouldn't have told me what he did.It is imperative that you be 100% honest with her if you hope to ever gain back her trust. And let me tell you---I can tell in a heartbeat when my H is telling me the truth and when he isn't and the continued lies have nearly shattered every ounce of trust that I ever had for him.If you are still talking to the OW, then the affair is not over. There is still an emotional attachment and that will be very painful for your W. If you intend to break it off with the OW, then you need to do a no contact letter and STICK TO IT! I'm sorry if I sound a little harsh, but my H has supposedly been trying to break off his A since September and the contact continues. It has gotten to the point that I'm not sure if I want our marriage to recover or not due to the extreme amount of damage that has been done since discovery.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ivory: As for honesty, sorry...I still don't agree that getting into great detail about lover trysts on the same night as the confession is productive. I'll re-read on the Harley Q&A and Articles pages, for your sake. I did say that I would do it if our counselor suggested it. Presumably by that time all heads will be a little cooler, a little clearer, and perhaps it won't even be an issue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mike certainly doesn't need me to defend him, but I'll definitely cast my vote for complete honesty. If you go into this planning to hide the facts, Ivory, you'll be crippling your recovery before it begins.After the Affair by Janice Springs has a great section about this very topic. I'd highly recommend you find it, read it, and understand that you'd better answer every question put to you honestly and completely. You say dwelling on the details is bad? You may be right on that point, but you have no right whatsoever to tell your betrayed wife what is and is not important for her to know.

Hi Ivory,I will be praying for you and your wife. I strongly suggest buying the book "After the Affair". It was a great help for me and my H.PJ

I've looked through this site using search terms about honesty and details and find no correlation of those points directly related to details of the sexual encounters, which are the kinds of details I am talking about. Almost all other details can and will be answered forthrightly. If she insists on the others, I don't think it helps the goals for the evening, but I'll do my best to answer them.I believe that I have proposed a reasonable alternative for confessing sexual details, if they are to be confessed, which is to do so if a counselor suggests that I should. The inference that I am unwilling to listen to the advice of those on this forum makes no sense. I found the site and came here ON my own. Some people throw bombs because I am a WS, posting while also having an affair, and others have been more reasonable. To be sure, a certain amount of bombing not only is expected but perhaps helps test the writer's intentions. I am acting somewhat without the heart to do it, but that's just the way it is for me right now. Thank goodness we humans also have a WILL, and when the heart doesn't cooperate the will sometimes can be geared up to intervene. Maybe I need saving from myself...who knows.. it is that possibility that has me acting despite possibly not having the internal something-or-other that some of you seem to be looking for. I have two choices: NOT reveal the affair at this time, trying to wait until---what? a crushingly broken heart?---or to step out ONE bloomin' step at a time and hope to goodness that when I get past the first few steps that I can SEE, then from the perch of the last step I will see more steps and, encouraged by the steps successfully taken to that point, will embark upon the new ones with a little more confidence, a little more resolve, perhaps more of that brokeness that would be helpful.Otherwise, folks, it's wreck this marriage and go off with OP, or try and continue the affair AND the marriage.Ivory

Ivory,The <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3800_honesty.html" TARGET=_blank>Rule of Complete Honesty</A>. My guidance would be to confess everything your wife wants to know about, but probably with professional help. You might even want to have a session with Steve or Jenn Harley scheduled for after this confession, if your wife would want it (I might delay this until you could discuss it with them on the timing, etc.).I would agree with you that you want to do this immediately---even if you're not over withdrawl. Your spouse can help you through withdrawl, as well as provide you with a person to be accountable to as you try to maintain the no contact rule.

The Rule of Complete Honesty does not seem to infer revealing the details of the sexual encounters, just the fact of them, and the broader details about them. I do believe that the Harleys should address this question very specifically, because in what I can find in their writings it is not truly clear. Remember: the concept of honesty is not being debated by me. I am speaking specifically (narrowly) about going into the purely sexual details.Let's say you (the couple) are sitting there trying to go through this terribly hurtful and emotional experience, and your wife says, "What about her breasts? How do they compare to mine?" Or, "Did you enjoy making love to her more than me?" Or, "Did you and she have oral sex?" And so on! Utter and complete honesty? This is good?ivory

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: Mike, What would you like for me to do---postpone it?I'm not the one to make that call for you. If I were you, I would be counseling with Steve Harley prior to revealing your affair to your wife. As far as timing, I would make sure I was ready, and committed to total honesty. To many of the betrayed spouses on this site, the lies hurt worse than the infidelity. Any sign of being evasive in your answers will undermine the foundation and new beginning that this session should set for your future relationship. And, it seems to be the case, the betrayed spouse will probably fill in any gaps with their own imaginings that are far worse than reality.I apologize if you take umbrage at my question about your motives. But when I read back over your story, I interpreted this as you making this decision not as a new beginning with your wife, but as a tradeoff that would allow your lover to remain alone in town rather than follow her husband to a new town 3 hours drive away. She had agreed to move with him, in return for him not informing your wife. Here's what you wrote a week ago:"""So in essence she has traded her life for mine. Say what you wish, but that is a great expression of love in my book. I don't feel that I can let her do this. I could go on with my life while she basically would merely exist (she has had ulcers from this marriage in previous times). And surely her husband would eventually admit to himself that he didn't have a wife--he had a hostage. His previous promises likely would seem pretty hollow at that point. And if she couldn't take it any longer, and left, in his anger he might do anyway that which he has promised her he wouldn't do.I believe that I cann "disarm" this man by first being honest with my wife (one of Hartley's steps anyway) and trying to rebuild the marriage, plus also ending my affiliation with the church, leaving him with no cards to play. She then could proceed along whatever course she wished for her life. In that I am still emotionally attached to her, this is a final act of love I can show her, to free her from the bondage he proposes."""Well, that is all very chivalrous, but what it bottom lines out to is that by telling your wife about the affair, your lover, for whom you clearly still hold a torch, separates from her husband and stays in your hometown. By the way, I'm sure her police detective husband will not appreciate this turn of events, with his wife leaving him and staying in your town. He probably will contact your church and your wife, and look for other ways to harm you. I would not be assured that by separating from your church and informing your wife, you have somehow stymied him....or, as you put it "disarmed" him. In fact, you may move him to more drastic action. I would be careful.The people that helped me here in Marriagebuilders did so by hitting me right between the eyes. I apologize if I seem brusque. I hope you can actually end this affair and rebuild your marriage. But I think you need to commit to honesty, with your wife and yourself.Mike

Ivory:You're doing a good thing by coming clean to your wife, let me just state that at the outset. It's not easy to do, it's embarrassing, and your life is going to be a lot different from here on. All of us, especially the WSs like myself, appreciate that.You seem surprisingly resistant to the idea that you'd have to be honest about the sexual aspects of your relationship, and I wonder why that is. I agree with the others here that the basic principle of this board is COMPLETE honesty, in every detail IF NECESSARY. Read some of Peppermint's old posts if you want to learn how important that can be to someone, and how painful it can be if the questions aren't answered forthrightly.Note that this DOESN'T mean that you have to "dwell" on the sexual aspects, or volunteer to go over in excruciating detail every encounter ("On March 8, I put my ________ into OW's __________ a sum total of five times . . ."). You should START by volunteering whatever information you feel is appropriate. But I think you're fooling yourself if you think that your W isn't going to have ANY questions about the extent of things. She's likely going to want to know whether you had sex with the OW, and if so, for how long that had been going on. She might want to know where. Those are reasonable things to want to know, as I think you'd agree if you were on the other side of things.It's not "dwelling" on the details to GIVE the details IF YOU'RE ASKED. It's not fair to suggest or imply that simply because YOU know all the details, for HER to want to know them is "dwelling" or not focusing on the "real issue." One of the "real issues" here is that you had sex with someone else, yes? If you're still talking about every detail of an intimate encounter six months from now, that might be another issue, but for the first disclosure, you've gotta give her the goods if she wants them.You may be tempted to jump right away into what you think is wrong with the marriage -- what needs of YOURS aren't being met that led you to do what you did. Let me suggest that a more contrite, and penitent, approach, is both called for and a good idea. You're in the wrong. You need to acknowledge that, take responsibility for it, and do whatever your W needs you to do to make up for it. If that means telling her the gory details, you just have to do it.I worry that you're so eager to keep the details to yourself not because you really think it's not the best way to recover, but because the affair is still going on, and you think those aspects are "special," or between you and the OW, and that your W has no "right" to know them. She does have that right, and if she wants you to, answer her. By doing so, you'll take away the power those moments have over you and will start to build trust with your W.Saying that you'll only talk unless ordered to by a counselor is just silly. You've let enough other people between you and your W, don't you think? Try to just talk to her, and meet HER needs, for honesty if need be, and see where that gets you.Good luck. Seriously. My stomach churns just thinking back to the moment when I told my W.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: Let's say you (the couple) are sitting there trying to go through this terribly hurtful and emotional experience, and your wife says, "What about her breasts? How do they compare to mine?" Or, "Did you enjoy making love to her more than me?" Or, "Did you and she have oral sex?" And so on! Utter and complete honesty? This is good?ivory [QUOTE]Well now. You know what? She just might ask that question. If she doesn't she probably will think that. Would't it be wonderful to know exactly what she is going to say or do? You don't. I never in my life thought I would have an A, and when I did, I never thought my H would find out either. I also thought, if he found out, that would be it. Over. Ivory, I beleive that you are really reaching right now. You are totally powerless over this entire situation. You need to let go, and let god. You are no longer in charge. Reading this reminds me of a hamster in a wheel. Going round and round. Trying to make sense, trying to hope things work out *your* way.Things work out they way they are supposed to. Again, good luck PJ

The point is that you are to be totally honest w/your wife in answering her questions. She is the one who decides what she can handle not you. It is totally her call she may want details maybe not. Since you have never confessed an affair to her before(I assume) you really cannot make any assumption on how she will react what she will want etc.

We are getting nowhere, so let's move on if we can. If she wants sexual details, I'll supply them.Taxman, what in h*** has got into you about me? This is not the first time you have inferred that the A is still going on. What words can I say? OP and I have ended the affair. It is over. We are not contacting each other. You tell me what other words I can use to help you with this and I'll be glad to use them.I don't claim that *I* have any rights. I do not. I do not delight in what I've done. I am not trying to play games with my wife. I don't want to withhold "special" information. I fully understand that I have no claim to dictating what her feelings or reactions SHOULD be, or what is "right." I do plan to go with the fow and meet things as they occur. I do plan to help her with whatever it is she wants to know. I do plan to stick around unless she doesn't want me to (I'm talking about in the room). And so on.What more can I say?Besides the complete honesty issue, which I hope has been settled, is there anyone who'd like to contribute other ideas and thoughts for the evening? For example, when we have had workbook sessions and stay-in-touch sessions before, we have made coffee. This seems to me like a litle too "cozy," almost an insult since she doesn't know what's coming. Right? Wrong? Turn on the gas logs? Not? (No, I won't even think about music...I'm not that stupid.) Hold her hand??? BS's, what mistakes do you feel your WS made? What do you wish he'd done better or differently (besides never having had the affair).Ivory

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: The Rule of Complete Honesty does not seem to infer revealing the details of the sexual encounters, just the fact of them, and the broader details about them. I do believe that the Harleys should address this question very specifically, because in what I can find in their writings it is not truly clear.Harley advocates full and open honesty in all communications with your spouse, painful, shaming, and otherwise. How clear is this : "All questions asked by your spouse should be answered fully and completely."Remember: the concept of honesty is not being debated by me. I am speaking specifically (narrowly) about going into the purely sexual details.I would say that you are debating the concept of honesty about purely sexual details. As you are revealing a sexual relationship, the line of questioning may legitimately go there.Let's say you (the couple) are sitting there trying to go through this terribly hurtful and emotional experience, and your wife says, "What about her breasts? How do they compare to mine?" Or, "Did you enjoy making love to her more than me?" Or, "Did you and she have oral sex?" And so on! Utter and complete honesty? This is good?Harley counsels that spouses are entitled to the full truth about every aspect of each others lives. Some call it radical honesty. It isn't easy. How would you handle the questions above? Lie? Most wives radar would be up pretty high for lies at that point. Say "I'm not going to answer that" ? It may be hard to imagine, but being caught in a lie or refusing to answer will be worse strategies than the truth in those scenarios. Do you want your wife going around for the next 40 years privately obsessing whether or not you had oral sex? That will not be a kindness on your part.Some betrayed spouses need to hear every sordid detail in order to have closure. Emotional types may need to do this with a professional counselor present, according to Harley. You don't describe your wife as a candidate for that, but that may be a way to go with it.Here's what Harley has to say on the subject of revealing infidelities: ===================="""Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse. But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy. It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity. ===============================

Ivory, Ivory, Ivory. . . .I didn't "imply" that the affair wasn't over, I said so. In an earlier post, I ASKED you if you were still contacting the OW. You replied:"You're right, Taxman...technically I am not in withdrawal. I guess you could call it anticipatory withdrawal. There was a period of not talking to one another but in the last few days we have had some contact, but that was to talk over issues of D-day, her H (who knows), my W (who doesn't yet)."You still love the OW, you're still talking to her. The affair goes on. Even if it wasn't going on physically, it clearly is still going on in your heart. You still view the times with her as special, as precious.By previously stating that you wouldn't give the gory details, even if your W asked, unless told to do so by a counselor, you in fact WERE claiming that you had a right to dictate what she should and shouldn't hear.As for the scenario, I don't think that I would re-create a romantic moment from your past with your W before you tell her you cheated on her. Sit down somewhere comfortable, because you'll be there for a while, be gentle, etc. But light on the romantic, frilly touches.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: This is not the first time you have inferred that the A is still going on. What words can I say?Ivory, your writings clearly reveal that the emotional attachment to the OP is very strong. You are still in love with her, and you have tried in the past to break it off without success. Now, she will soon be single and in your hometown alone. I think that Taxman, and others maybe, including me, just hope that you are not glossing over the challenge that lies ahead for you in ending that affair in your heart.We are not contacting each other. You tell me what other words I can use to help you with this and I'll be glad to use them.When was the last time you talked with the OP?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ivory: Utter and complete honesty? This is good? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In my opinion as a betrayed spouse, "utter and complete honesty" is all you have to offer at this point. You've shown utter and complete disregard for your wife's feelings by betraying her. If you approach her now with a confession and refuse to answer all of her questions, you will only be adding to the contempt you've already shown.I say again that you have no right to make any decisions for her.

Ivory,Let me tell you some of the replies I got from my WS in the beginning when I attempted to ask questions about the EMR that he confessed. I didn't ask for sexual details. I asked generic things, like how they met. When. Did he protect himself. Was it over. This is a collection of some of the responses I got from him that I still cannot shake:"That's none of your business." "I'll take that to my grave if I have to." "I'm not going to answer that, so don't ever ask me again." -and lastly, and quite unbelievably - "any counselor we'd go to would tell you that you don't need to know anything about this, other than it happened."He was still very much in the fog, and our marriage wilted on the vine. Then the wonderful, perfect, loyal XOW whom he called his "best friend" wrote me a long letter ratting him out. As soon as that arrived in the mailbox, complete with all of their emails to each other, he couldn't stop talking fast enough. I knew then that he was still protecting the affair - and trying to negate his own guilt.What hurt the most was not that my H didn't answer all of my questions; it was that he was *unwilling* to do so. Had he said, in response to my questions, "This is going to hurt you - are you sure you want to know?" I would have respected him. I might have even rethought my questions to see if they were questions that I really needed an answer too.And ... finally, I'd like to add ... it doesn't sound like you've got the OW behind you. In fact - and please don't take this as a flame - I'd be willing that unless you reveal EVERYTHING to your W, the two of you will start up the EMR again. In Frank Pittman's book, "Private Lies," he explains that the more honestly you talk about the EMR with the BS, and the more details that are revealed, the more the EMR looses it's mystique and is shown in the light of day to be what it is - a horrible, tragic error. Ergo, the less chance the EMR has to resume.I can't tell you what to do, simply point out observations and tell you my own story, and how it made me feel. My H's unwillingness to be completely honest was the killer - not the EMR itself. I could have forgiven that.belld

Hi Ivory,Telling your wife is the right thing to do. It will be difficult for you, and I know firsthand that it will be devastating for her. You are best able to predict her reaction, but try to be prepared for the worst.I would like to offer my perception as to why it is important to answer any questions your wife asks. As a betrayed wife, I asked about and heard many things that I didn't want to hear. But I did it because I did not want there to be ANY secrets that were shared between my husband and the other woman. A shared secret creates a connection, and I absolutely wanted that connection between them broken. If he hesitated answering my questions, I felt that he was trying to protect her, making her more important to him than me.Be ready for the possibility that your wife will react in a way you have never seen before. And please be prepared to forgive her for the things she might say and do. I really believe that I temporarily lost my mind when I found out the truth and I know that I said and did things I would not normally do. Temporary (and still occasional)insanity.I wish you all the best, and will be praying for your wife.Peppermint

Ivory, if you are on this forum to ask advice of others who have been through these things, why are you not willing to take their advice? There may be things that you don't agree with, but at least respect the fact that lots of people have taken lots of time to answer your post.One thing that you stated really bothers me. You said that you are not currently having an affair, but are in contact with the OW. Then, Ivory, you are still having an affair. You have a deep emotional bond with this person and that construes an affair. You have not even begun the withdrawal and grieving process.Virtually every BS has agreed on one thing----answer every question that she asks you honestly. If you don't, I can tell you from experience that it will be extremely difficult for you to build any trust with your wife for a very long time. If she asks you for details on the sexual experiences, then answer them. They will be painful for her to hear and for you to say, but it is less painful than being lied to, that I can assure you. When I would ask a question that was going to be difficult, my H would respond tenderly "you don't want to know that". But, I did. It for some strange reason helped me cope and deal with things better. If he wouldn't have told me, I'd still be wondering to this day what really happened.I do also agree with Mike that you may want to counsel with Steve or Jen Harley before telling her. They may be able to offer some great help to you because unfortunately, it is probably going to be one of the most difficult nights of your entire life.I am glad that you are posting here. If you want to work on your marriage and repair the damage that's been done, then you're in the right place. We're here to support you and want to help you through this difficult time. I would also encourage your wife to post here as she will get much needed support as a betrayed spouse.My prayers are with you, Ivory!

Ivory, I don't know if this will help or even if it will make any sense but I'll try because you seem to really want to do the "right thing".If I remember correctly, you are telling this to her on Friday so she will have the whole weekend to deal with the initial shock. So really you aren't just dealing with Friday, you are dealing with 48+ hours of this. You know your wife better than anyone else, you may not be able to guess what her initial reaction will be but you will be able to "read" her responses and her actions. Since you have known her you should be able to pick up on what she may not be able to articulate. If she wants space, give it to her. But don't be out of reach when she wants to ask more questions or needs closeness. If you are having trouble saying "I Love You Only" then say that you Want to feel that way again (if you do). This is the part that would be difficult and I don't envy you. With your heart elsewhere it's difficult to feel the desire. However, it may just happen that once you see the hurt in her eyes the nurturer in you will take over and you will not have to "act". Of course honesty is important. You've heard this one several times. Personally, I would answer only the questions asked, don't try to explain in detail. If she wants the details let her ask more questions. But don't make her feel as if she is pulling teeth either. What you may be tempted to do now is try to educate her about how she can get through this. Be careful here as well. Preaching/educating is not what she'll respond to right now.Loss of trust will be a key element, so being open is important. Let her feel like she can ask anything.She may seek out a friend for comfort during the weekend. Let her go or if the friend comes there she will probably want you to leave. She will probably ask who the OW is. Most BS do not confront the OP, but some do. (I hope your OW is ready for this.) This is why it's important that you be honest with your wife, because if the OW tells her anything different from what you've told her, she (your W) will have reason not to believe or trust you. Of course you have no control over what the OW says and she may not remember things the way you do, but as long as the answers have the same "ring" then your wife will see that. I can probably think of more but you may have nodded off already so I'll stop here. I hope I've helped in some small way. My thoughts are with you and your wife.

Ivory-I think its great that you are willing to confess to your wife. My H did not confess; found out on my own and confronted. No preparation, mood setting, etc.I want to weigh in on two points. Belldandy laid it out nicely as to why withholding details is not good. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What hurt the most was not that my H didn't answer all of my questions; it was that he was *unwilling* to do so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Keep in mind that you are confessing to haven chosen to betray her without her consent. When the betrayer is unwilling to answer questions, whatever they may be, they are again making a choice for the spouse.I also agree that not every detail is necessary, but each individual has to decide how much is enough. For me, if my H had responded with "you don't want to know" or "this is going to hurt you...", that would have been enough for me to backpedal and rethink. That response alone would have probably confirmed what I thought anyway. My H decided that he would not share any details because he felt they were not important. I still feel resentment for him having made that choice for me.Also, you are probably familiar with the no contact letter, but just want to mention that you may want to be prepared to respond to a request that you end all contact immediately and that you be accountable for your time. Are you willing and ready to do this?Good Luck Enlightened

Hi Ivory, I think you may be the most popular guy on the forum right now. You asked about some other suggestions so I though I might share what happened with H and me. I figured it out on my own. One night, without preparation, I confronted him. We were at home, kids in bed. He didn't want to answer anything. He sat acros from me. I had to drag it out of him and it was painful. I was calm. I got a little rattled the longer I had to try and get him to answer because I could tell that what I had suspected and with whom was correct. He didn't even want to share who it was with. Said it wasn't important. When I asked how long, he said it wasn't relavent. To this day, he won't answer that question. I am not real happy about that either but have decided to let that one go. He got up and left the room when he felt the conversation was over. Told me he was only with me because of the kids, didn't love me etc... Walked out at that point. I think he heard me crying and came back in. We went to bed after that. I couldn't sleep and wanted to talk about why etc.. He wouldn't talk to me. It would have been nice if he would have at least held my hand as we went to sleep or apolgized or something. It was like he was a stranger who the day before I had been so sure about.What I wanted during that conversation was a little compassion. For him to maybe sit next to me on the sofa, look me in the eye without disdain, tell the truth and be sorry for hurting me. It is very very painful to hear the truth. I would have felt so much better if he had done that. Instead, his lack of honesty caused me to go into spy mode. It consumed me. If there was a detail that I wanted to know, I dug it up. It was ugly. My hope is that when you tell her you are aware that she will be devastated and that you be tender and understanding. Hold her hand and tell her that you are sorry. Small things will make a difference.cleo

Hi peppermint,You arrived right on cue [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I had been thinking about you. [QUOTE]Originally posted by peppermint: As a betrayed wife, I asked about and heard many things that I didn't want to hear. But I did it because I did not want there to be ANY secrets that were shared between my husband and the other woman. A shared secret creates a connection, and I absolutely wanted that connection between them broken. If he hesitated answering my questions, I felt that he was trying to protect her, making her more important to him than me.That is well put. I also like where someone else wrote about "protecting the affair" by withholding details.Actually, I have been thinking about Ivory's reluctance. I think that the way to answer detailed sexual questions on the night of D-day is to say something like "I promise you that I will answer each and every question you want answered, truthfully and in detail, but I would ask that you take some time to consider what you want to know. And we may want to address this with a counselor."I don't know, that sounds sort of ominous, not want I wanted, but some thought like that. Sort of make them insist, but assure them that the truth is all available to them. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited January 10, 2001).]

Since my message previous to this one I had to step out for about three hours....came back to several more. The only thing I don't understand is if all of you who posted prior to right now missed the first sentence where I said I would, in fact, answer all of her questions. I appreciate everyone taking the time to weigh in on this, but I do understand the point you're trying to make. Suffice it to say that not all experts agree on this issue, but that's irrelevant.Let me go over the plan again:Comfortable setting... quiet house... tissues available (we'll both need them)... look her in the eyes at all time... be gentle and loving in tone... be as sincere as I possibly can... answer all questions honestly... stay there as long as she wants... don't be defensive about anything: there's nothing about what I did that has any measure of rightness... let her react however she does... talk over the future, as she is able to and wishes... As for my attitude, I still don't understand the inference that somehow I am NOT to be feeling love for OP when the teachings on this site also talk about withdrawal, "like a death," etc. Yes, I do still have love for OP. I will answer that question honestly, too, but I will follow it up with talking about the concepts of this site, and how after all, what kind of man in his *right* mind would do this? Just because of how I may feel at the moment does not make it turn out to be particulary valid don the road when my vision might be better. That's my head speaking, you understand. My heart is torn greatly over the ending of the affair, but I will be very careful how I phrase any of this to my wife. Remember the three choices: keep the affair and the deception going; end the affair yourself and confess it to your wife and try to rebuild; leave your wife. If there's some sort of purgatory between ending the affair and confessing it, someone please explain it.I don't know what other questions I may not have addressed..oh yeah, last time I spoke to OW. That would be Monday, on the phone. She understands the no-contact and in reality welcomes it because it's also the only way she can deal with the loss of me.Despite the pummeling, thanks everyone for your ideas. I know this is a highly emoptional and highly-charged subject. Please try to understand that my emotions are kind of frayed right now. Not only do I see this big-black train coming down the tunnel but I'm also dealing with the withdrawl. Not only that, I likely will have to leave the profession I earn my living in, because it and affairs "don't mix." Yes, no one's fault but my own. Ivory

Good Luck Kiddo! I'll be rootin' for you and the Mrs. Whatever happends .... you will get yourself back. It will be worth it!Take care------------------ ~*~*Yesterday~*~* all my problems seemed so far away~*

You probably don't need any more advice from a BS, but it is almost impossible for us to resist responding. I think it is because so many of us had to dig the information about the A out ourselves after many denials by the WS. Having the opportunity to comment on how we would have liked to find out is tapping a strong, raw nerve and asking us to dream away our hurt.Let me start by saying that I admire that you are going to tell her and try to work on the marriage. I do agree with the many comments that you should be in no contact with OW at this point, but that has already been strongly pointed out to you.As for mood on Friday night etc, my WS came back home for a week before Christmas to see if we could work on our marriage. On the Thursday before Christmas, we went out on a date. When we came home, he poured us a glass of wine (rare for us) and then talked about his day. After that he said he couldn't bring himself to work on the marriage and was leaving again. My reaction: what kind of a monster would do that? Therefore, my advice is to skip any mood stuff and just worry about being as supportive and apologetic as you can. Otherwise, it might look manipulative on your part.As for honesty, I agree that you should answer everything she asks, but I have a slightly different suggestion based on how I look at the issue. When my H was home for that week and we were talking about how we would rebuild the marriage, I realized that I wanted him to be willing to tell me every single detail about the A, but I didn't want to hear them. I think that for me it would be too hard to let those details go in the process of trying to forgive him and rebuild. In view of this, I would suggest that if your W asks for details beyond that you had sex with the OW and who the OW is, I would tell her that you are willing to answer all her questions, but that it will be painful and you want her to think about it overnight to see what she really wants to know. My fear is that the shock of the moment will cause her to ask and find out things that she will wish she never knew. This suggestion will still let her know you are willing to be entirely honest, but give her a little time to think about it. Good luck! My prayers are with you and especially with your W.

A quick question for you (this may be something that is way far down the road for you) and this may not even apply to your situation:I found evidence of the affair and confronted him. He did not confess all at once. In fact, he acknowledged each fact as it was discovered by me. All that did was make it worse. It multiplied the bitterness a hundred x.I actually confronted the OW about the PA part before I talked to hubby--he was out of the country on business when I found their chat files on the computer. I was polite with her at first, then, as the discovery of their sex acts hit home with me, I was hateful to her. I sent her some really choice e-mails, 3 of them in one day. To them, their sex was "beautiful." To me, the betrayed, it was humiliating, filthy, dispicable, and severing the physical bond that I felt with my husband. To me, I don't think that this can ever fully be recovered, were we to reconcile. I am sorry. It's been destroyed. He really was my knight and shining armor, body and soul. And he shared his body with someone else.Here's my question, to get to the point. You say you still have feelings for OW, of course, you are still in a withdrawal state. What would you do if your wife expressed hostility towards your OW, ie, namecalling? Okay, let's say specifically namecalling. I have called my husband's girlfriend every name in the book to him. He doesn't exactly defend her, but he acts as if the is the one being assaulted. He shouts at me. He tells me that I should have no hostility towards her--HE was the one who betrayed me, not her. To him, she was a friend and a lover. They share "cherished memories" that are "none of my business." To me, she is a selfish outsider, bent on taking the only man I have ever loved so deeply by using her sex and destroying my family, to what end? (That's exactly what she did, too.) I call it how I see it, he calls it how he sees it.If your wife is angry towards the OW, how will you react, in the state of mind that you are in now? Will you defend and protect her? (The OW) Or will you just let it slide if your wife is angry towards her?Maybe a stupid question, but I am wondering if I am really busting on my husband when I bust on his girlfriend. I don't think so, but he does.

Bernzini,Okay...notwithstanding that my wife's reaction is unpredictable, if I had to guess what it would be---based on what I know about my wife's personality, character and Christian life---she will not do namecalling. Very, very rarely has she ever let anything take her out of character. YES I know that what she will be facing is the worst and thus might be the one thing that would, but other than that possibility such a reaction is unlikely. Elsewhere on the web a counselor pointed out that in his experience fewer wives are surprised by their husband's revelation than their husband's would have thought at the time. Doesn't make it go down much better, but it buffers a little.To answer your hypothetical question, if my wife were to do namecalling, that would be understandable, part of the reactive process. Sort of like throwing a plate I suppose...I'm not going to defend OP. "Let it slide" is the phrase you used, and that's what I would do. If she asks me what I liked about OP, I would try to be as general as she would allow or as specific as she seems to want. Just because I can say what the attraction was does not mean that it was valid, and certainly no excuse for an affair. I do happen to agree with what your husband said, that my wife's problem is more with me than with OP, but that's a technicality. I'm not going to bring that up or get into it unless there's some unavoidable reason to do so. I initiated and promoted the affair (yes, to a willing partner).Ivory

She understands the no-contact and in reality welcomes it because it's also the only way she can deal with the loss of me. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Keep this in mind...the fog is thick. If you will need to be changing professions, I'm assuming you think the affair will become public knowledge and in addition to the private hell she will be thrown into, your wife, and of course yourself, will have to endure public humilation, too.My heart goes out to both of you. It is going to be rough.Since it is my two year anniversary, give or take a day, I will go back to D-day. My H didn't confess. In fact, when I found a receipt for some jewelry I didn't receive and inquired about it, he lied. On the other hand, he might as well taken out a billboard on the highway for the papertrail he left. He even said he thought I had the right to know.Anyway, it came to a head within hours. The kicker, to inject a morsel or levity, was a rival team's sweatshirt in the origional bag with a receipt, in the trunk. There was no way he could talk his way out of this one, so he confessed. Between the time I found the sweatshirt and a love note that look liked it was written by a cheerleader, and the confession, my H was in the shower. I had a few minutes to think.I have to say that I had a split reaction. I could have kicked my H to the curb and I realllllyyyyy wanted to. As much as I loved him and thought we had a wonderfuol forever marriage, I honestly could have turned my back. My blood ran cold. If you read my posts, this may be surprising.In my case their were young children and there was no way I was going to ruin their lives. So I prayed. When my H came in, the words that came out of my mouth were not my own. I remember thinking this and wondering what was coming out next. I was calm, I was controlled, I was loving.I can not even describe the depth of my pain in the next weeks and months.My point?Your wife may react exactly as you expect, or not.You have no idea the pain you will inflict. If she does seem to take it well, don't relax in your efforts to recover. Honesty and commitment can not be overstated.It has to be done, but you will be throwing your wife into the pit of hell. Don't forget it.You can recover and your marriage can grow to be better than ever.

Sigh!. . .thanks for not saying that I'm a jerk for being so. . .angry. . .I was afraid that I would be offensive. I don't want to be. Thanks for being understanding and kind in your reply.I count myself as being a Christian, too, trying my hardest to live a life as Christ modeled for us. I have tried so hard to turn the other cheek, to pray for those who hurt me. I want so much to be loving. I do love my husband, still, very much, as much as the day I married him. Yeah, the in-love thing, too, aside from the sex part. (That part--well, I dunno. . .I think the damage has been done) anyways, I doubt this love is reciprocated.And I am a relatively laid back, easy-going person. I a non-agressive almost to a fault.But I find myself using OW as a punching bag. I have not bad-mouthed her to her face since the day I sent those e-mails, in fact, I have not communicated with her at all (except for sending the URL for this web-site.) But to my husband, yeah, I have worked really hard at pointing out to him exactly how I see her. He rarely comments back. He doesn't talk about her at all. But he does get angry when I say something about her. When I ask him the age-old questions: What is it that she DID for you? What does she have that I didn't have? She's prettier than me? Skinnier than me? More professional than I am? (snort!) The sex. . .how could it be better than what WE had? Did you ever think about me once while you were. . ." (okay, I guess this train of thought is bordering on what you all were heatedly discussing earlier, sorry.)But he clams up. Or actually, changes the subject and yells at me.I think, if I might give a bit of advice, the more honest you are about your friend, while adhering to your friend's right to privacy, the easier it might be for your wife to see her as a good person, the way you see her. Saw her. It might prevent the poison from creeping into your wife's mind the way it has for me. No secrets. No mysteries. Easier to forgive. Does that make sense?

Ivory,You said you will have to leave your career. Why would people outside of you, your wife and a friend or two have to know? We told our priest and a couple of family members figured it out. All told it was 5 people who I know would not share that info. Is a career change really necessary and why would it have to be public knowledge? People make mistakes. We can be forgiven for those mistakes. I believe there have been pastors on this board who have had an A and not left their career. just a thought... cleo

About the career, I only would want to say that it's a possibility, even if only a few know. I would probably initiate it...that's why it would happen. It's a situation where it would be best not to take the chance that by some other means some other time the facts would come out, and the wrong for not having done the best thing at the time the A happened would be double so.Thanks for your concern.About restoration to ministry, I heard this statement once: restoration is possible when the repentance is as notorious as the sin. Pretty good and pretty accurate. Repentance is twofold: the initial act of repentance and the test of time. The passage of time, and ONLY that, is the proof of repentance, and time can't be speeded up. In time, therefore, restoration is possible.Ivory[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 11, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by cleopatra: Why would people outside of you, your wife and a friend or two have to know? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Read back over the history here. Ivory's OW's H knows about the affair, and laid down an ultimatum threatening broad disclosure that precipitated Ivory's coming confession. But the OW is planning to leave her husband anyway, and stay in Ivory's hometown while the her husband moves 3 hours away. I'm sure her rejected husband will assume that the affair is continuing, blame Ivory for the breakup of his marriage, and mount a campaign to publicize the affair in any way that will hurt Ivory.Ivory is probably wise to circle the wagons.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: The only thing I don't understand is if all of you who posted prior to right now missed the first sentence where I said I would, in fact, answer all of her questions. I appreciate everyone taking the time to weigh in on this, but I do understand the point you're trying to make.Well, for my part, I posted a few minutes after you "conceded the point", and was probably writing when yours went up. But, in retrospect, I think I wouldn't have changed my post.Maybe it is just a misread of your tone, but it sounds to me like you haven't really capiched the whole honesty thing, and want to move on to whether you should put Burt Bacharach or James Taylor on when you tell your wife. None of your catering plans are going to matter if you don't commit to the honesty thing heart and soul, no matter how painful.Suffice it to say that not all experts agree on this issue, but that's irrelevant.Why do I question your commitment to honesty?I think in your place, I would be asking this crowd for a "frequently asked questions" list and working on my responses, rather than the mood and the setting.How are you planning to answer the following questions:What is the OW's name?Does her spouse know?WHo else knows?How long has this been going on?How many times were you together with her?Where?What did you do sexually?Did you use protection?etc..... How are you going to start, Ivory? What are your first three sentences going to be? [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited January 11, 2001).]

Well Ivory,You're holding up pretty well here considering. Whoever said that the lies that were told to the BS were worse than the actual infidelity was right on!I actually asked a lot of questions, and Thank God got a lot of answers. It helped a lot that he said his OW "would not stand out in a crowd"..."has smaller breasts than me", ect. We women compare, don't know why, it just seems to be our nature, so try to answer some of her questions with a favorable light towards your wife. Now, I did offer this advice to someone else in your shoes once and was told by another betrayed wife that it would have hurt her to be compared to OW even if it was favorably. Guess you can be the only judge of this.p.s. the fact that my husband had trouble maintaining an erection (am I allowed to say that?) with OW didn't hurt my self-esteem much either.I want to disclose, since my post seems like everything worked out...that it didn't. H is now with OW#2 and is still very foggy, but other than refusing to give me OW's name...he did really help me out by telling me the truth most of the time. Sometimes he would preface his comment with..."this is going to hurt"...at which time I'd dig my nails into the palm of my hand. I would also tell him to stop when I'd had enough. Be gentle Ivory, this is tough stuff as you know...try to touch her and hold her hand if you can...allison

To Mike: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>How are you planning to answer the following questions.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Honestly. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Maybe it is just a misread of your tone, but it sounds to me like you haven't really capiched the whole honesty thing, and want to move on to whether you should put Burt Bacharach or James Taylor on when you tell your wife. None of your catering plans are going to matter if you don't commit to the honesty thing heart and soul, no matter how painful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, you absolutely did misread my tone. You are wrong about the "catering" (what an ugly inferrence, Mike). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What are your first three sentences going to be?...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I expect to start with something like this: "As we both know, we are in a difficult time in this marriage. You have wondered about my moodiness of late. We've talked about it. I am hopeful that we can get better, but unfortunately it's going to have to get worse before it can get better, and the worst thing I can tell you is that I have had an affair."Allison:Thanks for the words. I'll help her through it in any way she seems to be willing to let me. I know it will be rough. Ivory[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 11, 2001).]

Ivory,I think I missed the part about the OW leaving H and staying in town. I understand now why you would need to tell people. I was posting under the impression that she was moving and H would not be exposing anything. I have a better understanding now of why you feel that you may have to leave your career. I am glad that you have chosen to reveal things to your wife despite the surrounding circumstances.cleo

Cleopatra,Perhaps it is helpful if I explain that H desires to protect OP ---including even if she does not move--- by not exposing the A publicly. He can't go after me without also failing that. If he did decide to do it two bad things would happen: (1) he would for sure lose his wife and (2) he would embarrass her publicly as well as risk embarassing their two sons. For their sake, he does not want to risk any of those things. OP's leaving her husband is not for certain yet. Perhaps you did not read where they have had problems considerably prior to the A, so whatever happens would not be only as a result of bilge from the A.Ivory [This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 11, 2001).]

Wow Ivory. You've got guts. I'll give you that.The fact that sticks in my craw is from the first page of your responses. I would click to put it in here, but I don't know how, so I'll paraphrase. W has seen your mood, and chosen to be cheerful and in this marriage despite your mistreatment.What i should continue to stress it that this is the very reason your wife may not react as you think. I knew my marriage was strained. My H did not talk to me and took great pains to be away from home on trips as much as possible. when he was home, he drank to hide. When I found out about the A, i was shocked because i felt I had been doing as much as I could to repair the marriage without any success, and to find out that he had checked out already and had not even willing to give me a chance to address any problems in the marriage, before he found(and fell in love with)someone else. His started with no regrets either. He had left me(in his heart and mind) long before the OW came into his life. But he refused to see it. The fact that I could be so faithful and take so much mental abuse and put up with all the crap I had put up with just to have him stick his wick elswhere, Wow-----the rage comes pretty easily still. Sorry Ivory I didn't know that ws still there!!!!Abandonment is the severest of mental abuse along with the fact that no action was ever taken to repair your marriage before it went on to another woman. This too is abandonment. The rage is big, and the fear and panic, mistrust---a shattering of a dream, an innocence if you will, of the marriage and what it is supposed to stand for. Violation to the spirit and to the body(once she realizes you slept with her during the A period.) And the physical nausea that comes with the mental images that invade her brain in a rush--that is where all the questions will come from. Be gentle and do not raise your voice in response to these questions. My H did not want to tell me the details and spit every answer at me, just making it as painful as possible so I wouldn't ask any more. If you can, try not to tell her that you don't love her anymore, or that the passion is gone---this is the worst thing. It is the death of all one thinks to be yours by right and hard work. And it is handed back to you pulverised on a platter.I am not saying you are here in this place. You are willing to tell her and do no contact. My H won't give her up, and I discovered the incongruities that led to my guessing the truth. He did not want me to know. Then he wanted me to throw him out, so he did not have to deal with the pain, guilt, shame etc of his actions. I did not do that, to my surprise. I have not done it yet. But it has been six months and his alcoholism is making him a piece of jello--he can't contribute to any decision. She must be furious too. I wish she would dump him!! Good luck on Friday. And don't get drunk before you tell her! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Good luck to you - tomorrow is fast approaching! It has been one year since finding out about my H's PA and it has been one hellish year!God Bless you and your W!------------------ "People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is built." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt

Ivory,It sounds to me like you are planning very well. I would second K's suggestion to have a session with Harley, your W may readily agree w/out knowing what's coming.I was the one who had set up the session as he had already been telling me how unhappy he was. He told Jenn Harley first and she prepared me a little for what I was about to hear. Then she was available Sat. am. (it too was Fri nite) for me to talk afterwards. This was very helpful.It seems you understand that you can be loving even if you don't feel much love for your W right now. Prepare for a long night. M h told me, talked for an hour, then went to sleep. He felt relieved, I was devastated.If you have already been expressing your unhappiness in the marriage, she will finally know what is REALLY going on. There was anger and even some relief to know I wasn't the problem after hearing that I was for over a month.The thing about honesty is this: you have been lying to her now for how long? It wasn't just telling me details. When I saw he was ready to be really open, it helped me to believe he was completely changing his behavior. He told me about the A he was trying to get out of (is that easier than to keep saying you're not out if the no contact is not yet in stone?). He also told me of a previous one with a woman I know when I asked if he had been faithful the rest of the marriage.As a BS, I was left to reconstruct the last 18 months of my life and wonder who this man next to me was...I'm not sure you can really have an idea of how devastated she will feel.He became an open book; turned all e-mails and chats over to me to read if I wanted. I did. We then sent a no contact letter from both of us stating the fact I had read all the mails and was now monitoring the account.The explicit sexual details can be harmful, but none of this is private. Your W was a part of your life while you were engaging in adultery. The what, when is all critical for her to put the pieces of the puzzle together.Then it will be up to her whether or not she wants to rebuild with you...

Whew, On page 3 of this thread Mike C2 responded to a question that I asked you. He said that OW was planning on leaving her H and staying in town. He also said that OW's H would probably mount a campaign against you. Didn't you say, at one point, that the H threatened to expose you? Maybe I am on information overload. I am sorry. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I think your thread has taken on a life of its own. cleo

Ivory:You seem to feel as though you've taken a "pummeling" on the board. Kudos to you for continuing to come back and think through issues and answer questions. It shows strength of character, and you're going to need a lot of that in the days ahead.I'm genuinely sorry if you feel a little picked on. I don't think it's the intention of anyone here to do so, but since the place is mostly populated by BSs, the WS can occasionally be lonely. Believe me, as a WS, I know. Leilana in particular zinged me one day with a post that I STILL remember. And she was completely right to do so.It might be hard to understand, given where you are emotionally, but if you can, think of this board as a kind of huge, impersonal AA/Al-Anon meeting. Virtually all of the folks here are "dry", either in the sense that they're the victims of an addiction (their spouse's A) or they are WSs who are far enough into withdrawal that they're willing to seek this place out.In this context, you've just wandered in to the meeting with a good healthy buzz on, reeking of beer (metaphorically and all). You know in your heart that you want to change, but you're not sure how yet, and the monkey's still on your back. And we can all see it, because we've all seen it before in ourselves and in our loved ones. Now I know you and the OW have ended the affair, you haven't spoken for a few days, and you're going to tell your wife. Don't get me wrong, those are all GREAT things from the perspective of putting your marriage back together, and everyone here respects you for them, knows the courage that it takes, and is really hoping for you to succeed.But, being "dry", some of us (myself included sometimes, I'm sure) can be brusque with those who are still "under the influence". It's not intended to be a personal attack, but just a way of trying to penetrate the "fog", to give you the benefit of our sore-won experience as best we can. Sometimes, some of us may feel that a somewhat sterner tone is required, particularly when it's about something really important, such as being completely honest and transparent with your W.Anyway, I was feeling bad that you were feeling bad. Believe me, I've been where you are (at leat in a general sense) and know how difficult it can be. Hang in there, Ivory. When you can, try hard to listen and process what people are saying to you. There are a lot of really wise people on this board (most wiser than me), and they've all got the experience edge on you in this area, you know?Take care, good luck!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by cleopatra: Whew, On page 3 of this thread Mike C2 responded to a question that I asked you. He said that OW was planning on leaving her H and staying in town. He also said that OW's H would probably mount a campaign against you. Didn't you say, at one point, that the H threatened to expose you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was basing my info on what Ivory had posted last week (link below) but, of course, he would have more updated info. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/007020.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/007020.html</A>

I've been trying to think of what bothers me about the circumstances of Ivory's decision to tell his W. After giving it some thought, I feel that I can elucidate it: he is doing this more on the bequest of the OW and alleged threats from the OW's H than he is because he wants to do the right thing w/ respect to his W and marriage. That bothers me a lot, because it projects a sort of insincerity on this confession. It is therefore more about and for the and the EMR than the W and the marriage.To you, Ivory: I also believe that this is a very manipulative maneuver on the part of the OW here ... whoa, this woman has to be a real piece of work to convince you to tell your W. I want to stand up and throw roses. Hon, look ... she *wants* your wife to kick you out, and is anticipating it. That's why she wants you to tell your W, not out of some sense of duty. Please. I mean, who on this board has ever heard of an OP urging the WS to tell the BS about the EMR, unless they were going to get something out of it? Like, the BS?Sorry, Ivory. I don't buy the OW's motivation on this one. She's playing you like a nickel slot machine. When a woman wants another woman's husband, she will do anything to get him. Sad thing is, I feel that if your W doesn't kick you out, OW's going to up the pressure and find a way to get in touch with the W and rub her nose in it until the poor woman goes bonkers. Ivory, she is not staying behind in the same town for nothing. My guess is that she'll be laying her snare Friday night, in hopes that your W will throw you out and you'll end up on her doorstep. Do you want to be manipulated like that? If you don't, tell you wife *everything,* validate every feeling she has about the EMR and the OW, and follow Harley's plan for recovery to the letter. If your marriage is really what you want, that is. I'm still trying to figure out if it is what you want, though ... I still see you blinded by the fog.belld

dupe[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited January 11, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike C2: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: [b]I expect to start with something like this: "As we both know, we are in a difficult time in this marriage. You have wondered about my moodiness of late. We've talked about it. I am hopeful that we can get better, but unfortunately it's going to have to get worse before it can get better, and the worst thing I can tell you is that I have had an affair."That's pretty good.My use of the word "catering" was just in reference to the food, mood, setting questions you were putting forth. I apologize if that came off as demeaning. I do think you should use this group to deal more with the Q&As you can expect.What if she says "Why are you telling me now?"

Belldandy,Whoever said I wasn't blinded by the fog? Of course I am blinded by the fog. What would you have me do---hang around with OP until the fog lifts? Oh sure....that'll work. When driving in fog, one goes to the limit of one's headlights, but then--funny thing--there's more road when you do that! So one keeps going. That's all the heck I know to do. Got a better answer? Do you folks want me to quit feeling in love with OP before I do anything about the A? Do I quit the A, mope around a bunch of weeks trying to recover, then confess to my wife? Am I 100% certain that I want the marriage to work? You know, I might not be...in my heart. But then again, I'm in a fog. However, I am willing to try my best to go one step at a time. Point A to Point B to Point C. At least I think I am. Look, everybody...I'm not exactly thrilled about any of this. Everytime I come onto this board it is an act of the will, not the heart. I force myself to participate. I acknowledge that an advanced level of brokenness would be helpful to the cause, but don't equate any absence of that that you may think you detect with a lack of willingness to be honest, forthright, patient, gentle, and whatever else I cn be for my wife. The withdrawal is severe, just like it is said to be by the Harleys. Would you have me say otherwise, if I am into this honesty factor? Am I to be less honest on this board than with my wife? Am I to try and guess what each person hopes to see in my heart as I write and see if I can concoct the perfect, please-everyone reply, or display the properly-contrite attitude? I think most of would agree upon the answers to those questions.Those of you who are BS's...do you wish your husband had been doing this prior to his confessing to you? isn't it better than nothing? isn't it some attempt, even if a few of you think it lame, to force upon myself the absorption of some concepts? Isn't there some advantage to have this stuff located at some place inside my brain as I try to deal with my wife?Mike:No problem. I definitely don't intend to try and set up a mood. I wouldn't insult my wife that way, despite the fact that I have cheated on her. As to your question, what I would say if she asked, "Why are you telling me now." Actually, I might say that everybody on MB told me I needed to! But in complete honesty I'd also have to say that it's not right that OP's H knows and she doesn't know.The only fair thing for everyone is that the issue be rvealed and ealt with, however that might mean. I think I would say that at some point people have to move off-center, and we can't continue to go on the way things have been. Whether we end up still married or not, we have to confront this.Ivory[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 11, 2001).]

Ivory, My H confessed his long-denied, not-ended affair almost 2 years ago. My initial reaction was along the lines of "I knew it!" and relief that I was not crazy. That first afternoon all I really wanted to know was who she was (a co-worker I had met once, so I didn't have the physical description questions), how long it had been going on, and what he was going to do.I think he told me hoping I'd divorce him and make it easy for him. I did not. I cried a bit, but for me, was very calm...and I turned his comforting hug into passion. Most people don't react like that. I later got the "ick" and the need to know "the details". More than once he has said to me, "I've lied, cheated and been a ******* and am terribly sorry, what more do you really need to know?"He resumed the affair a couple times after that, discovery grew increasingly uglier until I was the one who served D papers. But, we've been back together 8 months now, and it is nearly 3 years since it all began. If you don't end it with the OW, or your wife, you risk losing them both.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: As to your question, what I would say if she asked, "Why are you telling me now." Actually, I might say that everybody on MB told me I needed to! But in complete honesty I'd also have to say that it's not right that OP's H knows and she doesn't know.The only fair thing for everyone is that the issue be rvealed and ealt with, however that might mean.Well, nothing personal, but I think that answer is less than forthright, and, worse than that, it sets you up to be immediately busted in a lie.Your posts last week clearly indicate that you are doing this as a result of an ultimatum from the OW's H. There is a decent chance that at some point in the next few weeks, the OW's H and your W will speak and compare notes. When he tells your W that he issued an ultimatum, her whole concept of you being "fair" and honest and looking for a fresh start with the confession will go poof, along with any trust you may be tentatively rebuilding.Just trying to help. "White lies always introduce others of darker complexion" -- William Paley [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited January 11, 2001).]

I reviewed that message. It was written a few days after H found out. The circumstances changed not too much longer. OP's H calmed down a day or so later and basically is confining his involvement to his and his wife's relationship. As of my final conversation with OP, he had not asked about whether I had or hadn't, was or wasn't. However, OP knows about Friday night and is going to tell H (I'm sure he has wondered). In any event, what might have been a less-than-stellar reason for inaugerating the confession nevertheless got the job done, so I don't have a problem with talking about that if it comes up.It seems to me that there's not much liklihood my wife would understand my waiting any longer no matter what the motivation.Ivory

IvoryI am not sure why everyone is on you so hard. You are not thick headed, I feel you got the point some time ago! Even if you are only telling your wife so she will take some of the responsibility from you of making the choice to work on your marriage, you should not delay. Go ahead as planned. She should know at the earliest opportunity, not the latest.I am not sure of Mike's agenda here. He seems to be the hardest on you. I realize it is for your own good, but it is almost as if he is willing you NOT to do it. For what purpose I cannot fathom. What's up Mike??But try a new thread, this one is too long to start a new one on. But for what ever reason, Ivory, even if you are hoping your wife will dump you so you can guiltlessly persue the OW, that is up to you. But it IS necessary for your wife to know--NOW. I choose to believe you really DO want to give your marriage a real try for recovery, even though it is only duty promoting it. I ask no more of my WS. I make no guarentees either, but a no-contact(ow),real, focused try is all one should ask at the beginning. My beginning is 6 months old now...I pray for that.

Ivory,I am not trying to get you to stop feeling for the OP - I am simply trying to explain how she is manipulating the situation FOR you and not cutting you any slack. Your W will no doubt make the OW into the villian, and will feel terribly insulted and angered that another woman has come into her marriage. She will perceive that the OW has hurt her, even if that isn't the case; how will you deal with this possible response?If your W does kick you out, will you got to the OW? If you would, then maybe it's best that you not tell, continue with the OW and let the EMR die a slow, painful death - as will happen (read Harley's book, "Surviving an Affair").I have to be honest with you, Ivory ... I'm wondering who this confession is for - your W? Or did the OW railroad you into it?I see very clearly that the OW is manipulating your life, and had to point that out to you, lest you didn't see it. OW's not going to admit to it, is she?belld

[QUOTE]Originally posted by burnedspouse: I am not sure of Mike's agenda here. He seems to be the hardest on you. I realize it is for your own good, but it is almost as if he is willing you NOT to do it. For what purpose I cannot fathom. What's up Mike??I think Belldandy's post on page 4 summed up my take on this.I hope I 'm wrong, and that Ivory is sincerely and 100 percent motivated in this disclosure exercise by the hopes of saving his marriage, rather than cutting some strings that keep him from the OW. He says so, but also admits totally that he is still in the fog and emotionally attached to his OW. Nevertheless, I have tried to make my comments constructive. But for what ever reason, Ivory, even if you are hoping your wife will dump you so you can guiltlessly persue the OW, that is up to you. But it IS necessary for your wife to know--NOW.I'm not 100 percent sure I agree with that (the second sentence). I think the way you reveal an affair and your commitment to honesty and rebuilding is more important than whether it is done on Thursday or Saturday. If I were Ivory and wanted to save my marriage, I would be revealing this through a counseling program with the Harleys and my W, and probably letting a little time go by between the end of the affair so I could present it as a fait accompli. Better that a WS gather there love and their commitment and pour their heart out openly, I think.As to your first sentence, funny you should say that.

To BurnedSpouse,Thanks. That was a breath of cool air. As to how I'm treated, well, I try (don't always succeed) to presume that most people are writing out of personal experience and/or personal grief, pain or all of that. I do sometimes think that some people have a one-size-fits-all agenda, which logically just can't be. Yes, there are common truths that always apply (disclosure, honesty). There are few common circumstances, though.Belldandy, I want to be kind, but have you considered writing soap operas? I did not respond to the OP part of your previous message and find it hard to this latest one, because *NOBODY* around here wants to hear a WS defend an OP, even if OP previously had been Sister Teresa. Nevertheless, I would know OP better than you and she does not fit your description. OPs can be otherwise-normal people who get their life screwed up just as much as the WS does. That one huge fault does not a conniver make. Remember: she's also a WS and I'm also a OP. Do I have a devious plan? Other than the affair they are not bad human beings and not wasting time on amateuristic devious plots that have a far greater chance of failing than succeeding. BUT... it's an absolutely unwinnable argument by either of us, so could be let that particular thing drop?Ivory

Hi again,Hey people, whatever Ivory's motivation and whatever his feelings about the OP are, he is doing the right thing by telling his wife. She deserves to know NOW, and then let the decision be hers as to what she wants to ask, what she wants to do, etc.I'll admit, I primarily empathize with her. I KNOW what she is in for, and there are no words to describe it, no predicting what she will do or how she will feel. Is there REALLY any preparing for this?Ivory just needs to be honest, and be ready to be there for his wife in every way possible. Hey, at least he is trying. I think it bothers some of us that he sounds so unemotional and detached, but that is just how some people are. Let's move past that to offer some real help and support for he and his wife. Yes, he is still in the fog AND HE KNOWS IT.Ivory, just a suggestion from personal experience. One thing that my husband did that I appreciated was to go to a doctor and be tested for STDs. He set up the appointements for both of us, but he went a week earlier and explained the situation to the doctor so that I did not have to. He had his tests done first and got his results to help put my mind at ease before I had mine done. I can promise you that concern about disease WILL be an issue with your wife, though it might take a few days to hit her.Also, if you are sincere, apologize profusely for hurting her, but promise only those things you will really do. If you intend to sever contact with the OP completely, tell your wife that. If you don't plan to end contact, be honest about that too. Heartfelt remorse is the best thing for a broken heart, in my opinion.Also Ivory, please believe that we all know that Betrayers are not all bad people. As a matter of fact, I am married to one. And I still love him with all my heart. Your words sound a lot like his did in the beginning of "discovery hell". He is MUCH better now!Prayers for you and your wife,Peppermint

I agree with peppermint. You are certainly doing the right thing, and that's all that matters.I am one of the people who just hates to over-analyze things to death. Like the shoes say: "Just do it."(Some folks--especially my husband--would call me impulsive in some cases. But I think that once you have made a good logical decision on the battlefield, understanding what losses you might incur, you stick with your first idea and go move ahead with all your forces. . .Army training--it did wonders for me.)Of course you are not over being with your friend yet. And of course you don't want to hurt your wife. Of course it's going to be difficult. BUT YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING AND THAT IS WHAT MATTERSJust don't be too defensive of us, friend. I know that may be difficult for you at present knowing what you are going through. We all have different outlooks and different ideas--but we all have your best interest in mind. Take what you can use and lump the rest in the barrel for future referrence.You will do fine. Just keep us posted.

Ivory,Mission accomplished. Truthfully? I meant to yank your chain by planting seeds of doubt about the OW's role that I strongly believe to be valid. No, the OP is not a bad person; flawed, yes. We are *all* flawed. We are all manipulative, conniving, self-centered, under-handed, duplicitous people from time to time, especially when we're trying to get something we desperately want. I'll be the first to admit that I have not been an angel all of my life, and I'm not an OP or a WS. So it's not an OP trait - just a very human one.Good luck tomorrow. Don't kick yourself if you make a few gaffs. You can plan out what you want to say and how you want to say it, but when emotion takes over ... well, just be your true self. And be honest. If you stay with your W and truly work for a better marriage and relationship, a year from now, you will probably wonder, "Why did I do such a silly thing?"That's all of the advice I have for you.belld

Dear Ivory,First off, OW needs to go on with her life and you need to let her. I agree with the natural death of the A. However, OW is still quite important to you. I read between the lines, you speak too affectionately about her and her opinions. Also, she should not even have a clue as to when you will tell your wife. It is not her business and I sure hope she is not waiting in the wings for you when you do. I personally think of her as alien about to feed on the remains of your wife. You have given her power over your wife by letting her know when and more than likely what, your intentions are for confessing.I don't know what I would consider worse, telling your wife point blank or letting her "catch" you. Either way would be devastating. I think you should really prepare yourself for a scenario you may have never witnessed in your life. It is much akin to learning of a loved ones death.I wish you luck, and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. I think maybe you should consider a back up plan for her well being. Such as, notifying someone close to the two of you (who knows) so they can be of some help to you if need be. This could very well become an emotional crisis situation for her and she might need medication. More than likely, she is going to want someone she highly trusts to be with her for a time, and that won't be you. It's a thought to consider.I know I sound morbid and so judgemental. I don't much about your marriage, how long, children, etc. but please know I feel for you and even more for your wife... Been there, it is not a pretty sight.God bless you all, Cathy

OK...a checklist of sorts:Likely questions: Do you love her? Do you love me? How could you do this? Are you going to leave me? What did I do or what is wrong with me? What were you thinking or how could you let this happen? Why didn't you tell me?And do you have a plan if she wants you to leave tonight? If she does, it could be her way of making you prove that want to fight for her and your marriage, which none of us, maybe least of all you are sure you want to do. So saying OK and leaving may be the worst thing you could do if you want to save your marriage.On the other hand, she might truly want some space. Is there anywhere in the house you could go, or anywhere that she would trust you were fully accountable and would not run or contact OW?In other words, if you did leave the house, could you honestly say "OK, I will give you some time and space, but I do not want to leave. I am going XXXX and I will be available for you to contact me at anytime to either talk or come home. If you do not call me, I will be back at XXX time tomorrow.And please pray. Pray for the right approach the right words. When I confronted my H, I am sure the words coming out of my mouth were not my own. I literally heard myself speaking and wondered what was going to come out next...and then being amazed it sounded so calm and rational and even loving. It certainly was not what I was feeling, yet it wasn't like I was consciously trying to craft my words or being emotionally dishonest. I truly think God heard my prayer that my family be spared and he took over.

It's a large house...there are areas to which I can go, places to sleep if need be. If for some reason she doesn't want me in the house, there are motels. If she didn't want me in the house, I'm sure it would not be a kick-me-out basis, but rather a temporary, probably overnight basis.And please, let me say that I have heard all that everyone has said about how unpredictable her reaction should be considered. I do, I do, I do get it. I am not counting on any given reaction or presuming I know anything about anything about anything.This is not a good day. I don't ask for or expect any sympathy or empathy. Sometimes I think I'm about convinced that I don't, in fact, want to save the marriage. I *suspect* deep down that I do, but many things are in the hopper clouding the issue. I will attempt to speak to her out of what I suspect the truth really is rather than what my present emotions are. You may think that will sound hollow and unconvincing, thus be ineffective, but I know how I can be, and she and I have had previous discussions where I was able to say how I felt but also acknowledge that those very feelings were an indication of a certain poverty that needed to be corrected. My spiritual life is a little vacuous at the moment, so while I may indeed cast a prayer it almost would be a foxhole prayer. Certainly all of you would wish that I could appear before her with the utmost contriteness. (Not to say that I think what I did was anything but "contrite-able") That might turn out to be the case when all is said and done. As I see her face crumble into tears perhaps it will speak to me in a new way of the treasure that she is to me, and the utter stuipity of what I've done.I wonder if perhaps I should be more certain about what I really am willing to fight for. That would mean postpoining the time tonight, but I don't know what the passage of time would really do--harm or good--toward the ultimate need to get past this point. Some have criticized a certain sense of detachment, while I have tried to explain that with a divided heart there's not going to be the degree of brokenness that all you BS's wish you saw (perhaps because you know the pain she will feel, or because your own H didn't show any, or who knows what else...). Yes, I did ask for advice, but no, I can't particularly assimilate into one man (me) each and every specific nuance of how I should try to be that have been mentioned by various ones of you. Again---I know that you were trying to respond to what I asked for.The way people read between the lines here I probably should say that if you think you are detecting some waffling about whether I will or will not go through with this, let me say again that I do plan to do this. The one caveat is that she is working out of town today and I do not know when she will get back. If she is absolutely dead tired, and often she is, then I think it is not reasonable to thrust this on top of that. It would magnify everything. It might be better to wait until the next day (Saturday). I am weary. I am sad. Those of you who feel it is my just reward, please just keep it to yourself today. I don't know what the "record" is for messages on a topic, but after 70+ messages so far, I think that about everything that reasonably can be said HAS been said. I do appreciate everyone's attempts to weigh in on this, even the flames. Hey, if I provided a vent source for you, so be it.If I haven't addressed recent questions to the questioner's satisfaction, it is out of oversight more than anything. Ivory

OK...one more thing...I don't know if I can put this into words properly.You need to decide whether you are going to make your decision or base your actions on your feelings or some kind of logic or value structure.I think it is safe to say your feelings are all over the place and you really have no idea what you are going to feel next or for how long. So if you plan to make your decision about your marriage or about the OW based on feelings, it is anybody's guess what the eventual outcome will be. Although we could predict the it would be a wild rollercoaster of emotions and even changes in course and periods of confusion and indecision. If you ended up choosing your marriage, this period will cause a lot of damage in addition to the actual affair.If you put your feelings aside (I know that is next to impossible) and look at this situation through your belief and value system and make the excrusiatingly painful decision that you will recommit to your marriage, then although the feelings will remain conflicted, maybe your words and actions will become clearer.If you decide not matter how you "feel" or deep your pain is, or how unnatural it seems, that you will say and do and, as much as it is possible, to think, in terms of saving your marriage, you will save yourself and your wife a whole heaping bunch of pain in the long run.Is this possible?

Ivory,I hope you read what I replied before. I am trying to just give you pointers as you asked. And to answer your question: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Those of you who are BS's...do you wish your husband had been doing this prior to his confessing to you? isn't it better than nothing? isn't it some attempt, even if a few of you think it lame, to force upon myself the absorption of some concepts? Isn't there some advantage to have this stuff located at some place inside my brain as I try to deal with my wife?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> YESMy h essentially did what you are trying to do and a year later we have a much better marriage than we ever did.A decision on your part to fully pursue this marriage to the point you either succeed or you and your w agree to part as friends IS THE MOST I WOULD THINK YOU CAN DO RIGHT NOW.There is no point in faking remorse. My h's came much later and it was clearly from the depths of his heart. God works in mysterious ways. I became pregnant sometime after he told me, and it was the anticipation that God was entrusting us with another precious life that broke him. He wept, repenting for his sin, for how deeply he had hurt me, and for how he almost threw away his family.We later had a miscarriage.Regardless of the final outcome, I firmly believe you are doing the right thing and I applaud you for coming here.You are clearly absorbing many concepts and there is a lot of HOPE, though you may not feel it right now.I will keep you in my prayers...

Ivory,No suggestions or questions this day. I just want to let you know that I do believe you are trying to do what's best. I see that you fully understand the whole situation and nuances that accompany it. Your thought process seems to be very much like my H's. I knew that when he decided to stay and work on us that he didn't love me. He did it because he knew that it was the best thing to do and that if we worked Harley's program that it was possible to fall in love with each other again. That is what has kept us going these past six months. I just want to let you know that I will pray that you have grace tonight and that your wife will somehow understand. Even though it hurt me, I did feel that I understood certain reasons for the A.take care, cleo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: I will attempt to speak to her out of what I suspect the truth really is rather than what my present emotions are.One thing I've found out in my relationship is that my W is alot more perceptive at weeding out my BS from my heartfelt emotions that I ever suspected.Anyway, Ivory, I think you have come a long way since the beginning of this thread. I appreciate that you are struggling to do the right thing, and are conflicted over what that is. I think that your wife will be desperately looking for signs of love and commitment, and I hope you can provide them to her.I hope tonite is the beginning of a wonderful new phase of honesty and commitment in your marriage. You'll be in my prayers.Mike

You and your W are in my prayers, too, Ivory. May God extend His hand to you and give you the strength and conviction to fight for your marriage.belld

Thinking and praying for you and your W tonight.These messages made me cry and gave me strength to continue.Ka

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and prayers. Thank you.If possible, it sure would be wonderful if the woman who's already your wife also were to become your lover, the person you can't wait to see at the beginning and end of the day, the one you laugh easily with, have interesting conversations with, enjoy going places with and the one who holds the bag when you bag the leaves....Ivory[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 12, 2001).]

Okay Mike- I am not trying to be a flamer, but here is the reason I said that first sentence (wondering why people were so hard on Ivory.) The truth is is that Everyone is trying to be sincere and objective, but some are using Ivory to let off some of their own steam to their WSs, and I think it has been highly repetitive and demeaning. I am surpised that ivory has returned in front of the gun so many times. I wouldn't have.What ever his agenda, has anyone thought about the fact that his W may actually already know or is on the verge? My first suspicions, then clues, then incongruity that lead to my demanding the truth, literally took place in 24 hours. I kid you not. Oh sure I knew my marriage had difficulty, but I never fathomed that my place as Love and Wife had been challenged!!!And I did NOT know he had given it away!!!!!!What if this blows up in Ivory's face? Just as my H's A blew up on him with my discovery when he was not prepared for me to know yet? My H fell on the floor in fetal postion and screamed for fifteen minutes that he should die. Is that what you would like for Ivory?I say tell her man, whatever your underlying agenda-good, bad, or indifferent. Just get it over with so she can join the cirle! Then after the intial shock, etc has worn off, she will tell you what she needs from YOU. You need to make changes in your view of her emotional needs because the moment you tell her they will change. Respect her and show her that respect--she deserves it. It is showing her respect to tell her the truth. You are ready, so don't put it off.

Ivory, you wrote:"If possible, it sure would be wonderful if the woman who's already your wife also were to become your lover, the person you can't wait to see at the beginning and end of the day, the one you laugh easily with, have interesting conversations with, enjoy going places with and the one who holds the bag when you bag the leaves...."Oh, hon, don't you see? You *can* have that! But you can't have it with your W right now. Why? Because you let an outsider take over those roles. Let your W be the one to be all of those things to her - tell her what you need from her and how you want to feel about her. Don't make her compete. Give her back the incredible honor of letting her be everything the XOW was to you, and you will be just fine.prayers,belld

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by burnedspouse: The truth is is that Everyone is trying to be sincere and objective, but some are using Ivory to let off some of their own steam to their WSs, and I think it has been highly repetitive and demeaning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, maybe we are looking at the same situation and seeing differnet things. We are questioning his motives, and you are questioning ours. It probably isn't constructive.I agree that Ivory stood up to it well, and I think he learned some things that he may not have from a handful of friendly supportive messages.Anyway, my thoughts are with him and his wife.Mike

Mike, I only hope that Ivory won't learn in *retrospect* what we are trying to impart. The reason why I pointed out that I felt Ivory was p-whipped into confession by the OW was because it certainly does seem that way, doesn't it? If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck ...I don't know why I get such an uneasy feeling about this, but I do. I frankly don't see this EMR ending for some time ... I see it folding out like the first case study in Harley's SAA.I hope Ivory's W is able to find this board or a board like it to find support, when she finds out. When I found out, I was practically suicidal.Prayers, everyone, prayers ...belld

[QUOTE]Originally posted by belldandy: The reason why I pointed out that I felt Ivory was p-whipped into confession by the OW was because it certainly does seem that way, doesn't it? If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck ...I think you and I saw this the same way. The head long rush to confession after all this time, coinciding with his lover's marriage teetering, left me wondering about what he really hoped would happen. Whether he was trying to open a door to a rejuvenated marriage or precipitate a severance that would facilitate his relationship with the OW and his tottering marriage.As Ivory admitted, he himself was conflicted about this.I would have liked to have seen a lot more questions about counseling, her possible reactions, and what she needed from him. None of this is personal, I would take the same stance with anyone in those circumstances asking for advice. It is just logical, Business 101 -- What do you want out of the meeting? What is your goal? Put yourself on the other side on the table and anticipate the other party's reactions and questions. I am normally a very tactful and mellow person communication-wise, but I find that the people that helped me in MarriageBuilders..Karenna, JL, K, NSR, and many others, did so not merely by offering support and education, but also by bluntly challenging my statements and actions and making me think. When someone is in the fog, I try to use those tactics, because they were so effective with me, and if they offend some, I apologize. Anyway, my thoughts and prayers are with Ivory and his W.

YOu know, Mike, I was wondering about that. Your posts here have sounded a bit different. When I first started coming here, I got a lot of help from your posts. You were always a bit more gentle. I get it now.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by cleopatra: YOu know, Mike, I was wondering about that. Your posts here have sounded a bit different. When I first started coming here, I got a lot of help from your posts. You were always a bit more gentle. I get it now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I guess this is more documented on the EN board, but lately I have had some great progress with my W. So when I look back at all the wasted effort I put forth over the past year, I can see clearly where I was off track on my methods and attitudes. When I see it in others, I just want to shake them [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]