The difference between the Fog and Love - Marriage Builders® Forums

Just did some thinking today. What exactly are the differences between falling in love and the "Fog"....Well, biologically, probably nothing. Everyone goes through what we call the Fog when we fell in love with our WS. So what's the dynamic that comes into play when an affair takes place? Why do we call it the Fog instead?Hmmm, my guess, and that's all it is, is that reading from Harley's articles a lot comes into play. Paraphrasing here, romantic love is an extremely powerful emotion, people lose their spouses, their homes, their children, their jobs, their self respect, dignity and the respect of those around them to experience that feeling of romantic love.In a 'normal' relationship, this 'fog' isn't a problem. And as the relationship progresses, the chemicals that cause this feeling eventually 'dry up', and if the relationship is to continue, then another kind of love takes it's place. A committed, stable affection that can grow deeper (hopefully) throughout the years. This is the real glue that holds a relationship together for the long term. And it's based on trust, truth and respect (among other things).However, in an affair, biology takes the reins. Both the WS and the OP are riding that chemical wave. Physical attractiveness isn't usually an issue because the affair started through an emotional connection. A connection that's surprisingly easy to make when the WS is in a vulnerable time in the relationship with the BS.Once the feeling of romantic love is established, everything else goes out the window, and this is what the BS calls the 'Fog'. How could the WS give up everything? It just doesn't make sense, but romantic love is like that. The upside to all of this is that inevitably, those chemicals will 'dry up' too.This is where Plan A and Plan B come into effect. When the WS starts to lose the feeling of romantic love with the OP (which can be helped along by LBing by the OP), the WS will think back and reflect on what has happened. They start to realize all the pain that they have caused, all the things that they have given up. And as [H] has said, a strong relationship cannot be built on a foundation of lies. The WS and OP had to lie to themselves, each other, and everyone else in order to be together. These lies will be exposed when romantic love starts to fade. If a solid Plan A and Plan B has been implemented by the BS, the WS will want that part of their life back. They will want to get back all those things that they gave away for the fleeting romance with the OP. If they feel that they have a safe place to go to, a happy place to go to, they will return.This is why most affairs end within 6 months after being exposed. Why only 3% of people who started their relationship as an affair end up getting married and why 75% of those marriages fail.If you want your WS back, have hope. Someday, the affair will end. Just be the best that you can be in the meantime.Just my thoughts on the matter. Take care,[This message has been edited by Redon (edited June 20, 2001).]

Well said... I vote that you go right to "member" status without the predetermined number of posts. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

cleo

Well said

------------------ Prayers, Hugs, and Strength from both of us. Things do and can get better. Keep hoping, learning, and growing. Take care of yourself.[H] and Knewjie

Wow, I am bowing down to you as we speak.Very well put. I agree 100%.

Bingo!! that is what happened in my situation. I believe in all my heart that that is how these "relationships" are played out. It took my H some time, but as the fog cleared, I was there, stable, and most important for him, waiting. He told me that the thing he feared most,is that when he came to his senses, that I would not be there. But I was ! After all he put me through, and that I was there for him, was all the proof he needed. Nothing that lying WHORE could say could get me out of his heart after that.[This message has been edited by mksgrl (edited June 20, 2001).]

This should be added this to Noteable posts..Wow, very nicely put!K [H]'s wife [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by Knewjie (edited June 20, 2001).]

Brilliant!Two thumbs up! A high five! and a cherry Coke!Cali

Very good Redon!To add to your 'chemical love' statement. I recently read that compared tue love to toxic love. Hm.... so those chemicals could be toxic. Yep, they can make the harmless (innocent victims) look distorted to the WS. The OP makes sure they keep adding chemical X (more hateful stuff about the BS and family) to the potion so then it start to become an addiction. Feeding off of each others hate. YUCK!!!L.

Wonderfully expressed; thank you Redon, you made my day and gave my Plan A a boost [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

octavia99

Redon, Very well said and a good summary of Harley's principles. Hope I'm not infringing on your thread, but I have a question related to your topic and since you seem to have a good handle on the issue, let me pick your brain.My H and OW broke up in the midst of their fog. They both had strong romantic feelings for each other, but a need to do the right thing (and other circumstances) ended the relationship. My H actually gave her an ultimatum (go with him and start a new life) or that was the end forever. He didn't want any more lying and secrets. She turned him down and we rebuilt our life together after we moved. Now things are great. We are best friends again and I truly think he has had no contact with her for 2 years. He is in love with me again. Now to the question... He was not out of the fog and was almost obsessed with her at the time of the end of the relationship. Therefore, the relationship did not die a natural death. I know a part of him still loves her and will always look at her and the relationship through a distorted view. Things are great now, but this still bothers me. Those of you farther along... Does this get better? Will he ever feel differently? Do I just have to live with this?

To answer your question, the following is something I found on a website (can't remember which one): Mature Love Versus Infatuation (Author Unknown)What is the difference between infatuation and real love? Nothing at the time a person is experiencing it. The difference is the difference between falling in love and staying in love! INFATUATION: One is totally occupied and fascinated with the individual. Every move and gesture is important. The partners feel intense emotional states filled with excitement, urgency, impulsiveness, and confusion. The relationship is based on very few accurate perceptions and little authentic knowledge about the person. They put each other on a pedestal while belittling or putting themselves down. One depends on the other for self-esteem. One has more to get from the relationship than give. One is jealous of the other person’s activities or interests beyond the relationship. Both can’t admit to normal human weaknesses in the other. They function less well than usual at school or work or home because of the relationship. One is terrified by the possibility that the other person will lose interest. They think only of the other person. MATURE LOVE: Each person is an individual apart from the other. Neither depends on the other to feel complete, worthwhile, and important, secure in self-esteem and what they bring to the relationship. The two people can accept the fact that neither is perfect. They don’t try to change or blame each other for the differences between them. The relationship and the partner become only a part of one’s life, not all of it. The relationship remains strong in painful, difficult times as well as happy. They share fears and tears as easily as they do happiness and laughter. Each person has more energy to devote to other parts of life. Their love opens them to new experiences instead of shutting them away from the rest of the world. The two are close friends. Physical attraction is only one aspect. Each person continues to grow as an independent person. Each person gets as much joy from giving to the other as receiving. Both are secure in the belief that their love is as important, meaningful, and valuable to the other partner as themselves. Honesty and trust are openly shared as they respond to each other’s intimate feelings and concerns. The partners feel a responsibility for each person’s well-being and act in ways that will protect and nourish them both. CONCLUSION: Falling in love has a high degree of risk, but understanding that there are different kinds of love can reduce the risk. Knowing that real love is more than riding off into the sunset, more than feeling tingly all over when your lover walks in, more than passionate sex, is only the beginning. But understanding the depths of mature love and its requirements may help you to build a lasting relationship that meets many needs. The rewards that come from a loving relationship are well worth it.

Thank you all for your comments, they are very much appreciated, and I'm glad that I've put a little sunshine into some people's lives.God knows, we can all use it.JenniJ, I don't have an answer to that. Although I would suggest that it's been 2 years, you seem to be on the right road, try to let it go. Your husband has put it behind him, he is with you now, his choice remember.... I know a lot of people would like to be in the position you are in now. Yes, your husband may have a distorted view of the OW, but he probably also associates her with all the deception, pain, and devastation that his affair caused. It's in the past, let it stay there.All the best,

There has always been a very clear delineation between the Fog and love; it's been there right in front of us all along, the BS, WS, OP ... if you read this passage thinking of the opposite meaning, that is the fog; as it stands, this is love:"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."- 1 Corinthians 13 -

Redon,Well said.You brought up some statistics in your post about about how affairs turn out. I know from reading the Harley books that he states most affairs burn out on their own AFTER they are revealed, usually within six months.My question is, where did he get these statistics? I know each case is individual and I am not one to rely soley on statistics. But has anyone ever done a scientific survey on how affairs end?I'd be curious to know...[This message has been edited by Always Hopeful (edited June 22, 2001).]

I completely agree with you however I also beleive that plan A has a specific time frame then to plan B. In my situation my wife never stopped the affair and I tried to plan A for 3 years but could not compete. I essentially wore out my welcome until plan a was even a love buster. She told me of the affair in '96 and it has not lost a bit of steam.... He has left his family and she has divorced me and nothing has changed in thier lives....

Yes the claim is that affairs die a natural death...after exposure to the light of day... but sometimes the WS still denies it is an affair...so I wonder if thats a way to put off the light of day.I know my h denied... and even after a very public pregnancy and birth of a child... loss of respect etc..he will not give "it" up... and just says they are close coworkers...he "needs' her to work. (they currently do not live together...she and her H divorced but she has their two children also, but has full time help.) Somehow, I think these two will simply keep denying!!! and keep working together, which is why the D is going through. I figure it may as well no longer be an affair, but a relationship!!!

Tootrusting, sounds like 'Fog' talk to me. How can someone have a relationship when it is denied to everyone?Some fog moves more slowly than others. Sometimes it never goes away. Some people can deny, deny, deny until the cows come home, but what kind of relationship can be built on that? Not a very good one, I would suggest.

Yes, I suppose it is fog...or he just morphed into some other being.There's a lot more going on with my H also, because he is middle age and into extreme sports... and can't seem to remember that he knew how to cook...very well... and oh yeah, he eats onions now, but didn't his whole life...but DON'T try to tell him that.He doesn't seem to think this whole thing is a problem for his kids... but he does now spend a lot more time with them, so that at least is good.He mentioned taking kids to see a couple that WE were friends with (our kids are the same ages).. I didn't have the heart to tell him they feel very uncomfortable with him. If it is fog...it is very thick indeed.

Hi Redon, Just read your post and all the replies.My H started an affair in 1/00; alcohol major factor in equation--10 days after they met where she was working in a bar(where she shouldn't have been because she was on probation from dwi conviction in Tx), he and ow were in his truck/accident/speeding on wet roads/both drunk/he got dwi but later charges didn't stick because by the time the blood was drawn through chain of command, it was 6-8hours after accident. I took him back and I didn't kick him out or file on adultery. I love my H. Ow didn't leave him alone; she told him to divorce me; on 3/13/00, he left, and he came back after 10 days; stayed 10 days and left again on 3/30/00. And then she filed against our STate Farm auto ins. policy and got $25,000 and Bonnie and Clyde were off... During this 18 months, he has filed and stopped d. 2x. And then in 3/01, he amended original petition. Hearing was 6/15 and, MUCH TO MY DISMAY AND DEVASTATION, the end is near.I am esp. interested in your comments because I have searched my soul about this "romantic" love (f0g) vs. true love. From the day he left, abandoned our home, family, children, me, and our life together, he could only say two things: he wanted to be TRUE TO HIMSELF AND TO BE HAPPY!It has been a hellish 18 months for me and my three children. In retrospect, as I have tried to comprehend how a person could forsake all that appeared IMPORTANT TO THEM AND JUST THROW IT ALL AWAY FOR WHAT? Is Romantic love so extremely powerful that a person would do all of this for it? Well, let me tell you this: in the words of my H as he was questioned on the stand at the hearing last Friday: He was asked to describe his relationship with the ow: He answered, "We are romantically involved!" Yes, his very words. This does fit the pattern of an affair, the feelings of romantic involvement,the fog...an affair that just hasn't ended yet--bbecause, even though I can't understand or comprehend this, the emotional attachment is so deep and he is in oover his head--only in this case,sadly, sadly, a d. will come first and then who knows what...And then, tonight, when I read your post, it hit me so hard. Over the last year, I have gradually read many books on affairs and entered this forum. I have studied alcoholism and affairs in depth. I have read all the statistics about affairs. This one is in its 17th month; the d. she so badly wanted my H to go for is around the corner. (Ow has been married and d. 3x).For the sake of romantic love, his mid-life crises, their desires to drink and drink/drive together and whatever else, me and my chidren's lives have been turned up side down. So, as you stated, once the romantic feelings of love are established, the hell with everybody and everything else in his life prior to that moment...My childrn are so unhappy, sad, devastated and I have them in counseling...My 16 year old son is turned upside down...all 3 of our children...2 dtrs., ages 11, 14...no nurturing from their father who has hardly seen them while he is so busy in new life.I had so deeply hoped, as I am sure you can empathize, that the affair would die a natural death before a d. would happen. Well, not in this case. It will probably take him becoming her FOURTH HUSBAND, before he might see waht he has done and whom he has hurt...And even then, after a marriage which I believe is on the rebound for spite, it will take a while (?) for the usefullness of this to wear off. When the annoyances finally begin to outweigh what the affair/marr. provides, then, and only then, will it disintergrate and die... (as you so aptly said, which can be helped by LBing by the Ow).In my case, too sadly, a divorce and then a remarriage... Yes, the affair was founded on lies and deceit and quicksand; but, unfortunately, since the "romantic love" is so extremtly powerful, the quicksand is somewhat thicker--and it takes longer for the sinking of the "affair" to end or marriage to break up....I talked to Dr. Harley on the radio and S. Harley on the phone. I put a Plan A letter; I have held off on a Plan B letter. Maybe i need to seriously consider a Plan B letter; I am trying so very hard to be strong,in light of the infidelity, the d. and the very likely marriage...In fact, another interesting comment my H made while on the stand was this: He was asked if he characterized me,his wife, as hostile towards him? He replied, "No". I was shocked,and yet I wasn't. Because after the Plan A letter, I made a committment to myself and to my marriage--that when I saw him and had a chance, I would be pleasant, and say hello, and smile and look confident and happy...even though that is not true...And from the comment, it appears that, perhaps, it is working...?!?!? ONly time will tell, right? So, did he really notice that I am not angry and hostile towards him--regardless of what has happened and waht is happening--the d.,and all else. Little does he know that I am pretending... but how else do you do it?If I show the anger and hostility, he will sense it and draw further away..for now, I have to act like I see absolutely no future for us as husband and wife...I do have hope...I want to much for the statistics to pan out for me and my H...but there is always the chance it won't..Sorry this is so long, but I enjoyed your post and I had to respond. i liked your thoughts... Thanks for sharing.My best to you. elo

elo, I read your post. I truly understand where you are coming from. IT seems their relationship is based more on NEED than love. In fact my H just keeps saying "I want to work with OW...she is the best".. When it has been suggested to give her up...he will say "Put a knife through my heart".It does appear romantic... but it is more like they are emeshed with this person (both my H and your H and their OW's)....so that no boundary exists.That's truly how it seemed to me, when this thing began. My H seemed to say things that came right from OW's mouth. I know her and have heard these things before.If you have not read the book "I don't want to talk about it"... it is a good book about the legasy of male depression. There is a chapter in it on the addictions men use to self medicate and he does a great job (although steve Harley does as well) of describing it.I, like you, have been going through this for 18 months. My H is actually involved with the kids much more recently. I wanted to move away with them. To go back home. But he put in his own parenting plan and now has them a few days a week.It is weird though, because he has no empathy regarding how they might feel about the fact that their father has an illigitimate child. Or how the rest of this town views it.Unfortunately, my H is very successful at work...which is where the ow comes in. As long as work is giving him his high.... he can hide in that role I guess.It amazes me that this 45 year old professional, very intelligent man has no clue how he is viewed. I cannot figure it out. Is it fog? Is it self medication? Is it an underdeveloped or no conscience? Or all of the above.Like you...I am nice to my H. If I EVER try to set any boundary...as in plan B...which I tried.... he gets more nasty and it is bad for the kids.So now, my plan B is simply to go with the D...move out of this house and begin my own new life.

Hi, tootrusting, Thanks for reply. Read and printed your posts. Yes, I agree, as long as the ws and the ow keep denying, the d. will become a reality. then, what next? I can only figure based on how much in denial my H is.Oops! It is hard not to say my H. Even though I do not accept the d., I just know it is out there and it is a piece of paper--the legal d. I have tried to minimize the emotional side of the d. so that he might one day see me as as safe to come home and try to reconcile.For now, I have to force myself, while on this roller coaster of I don't want a d. and there is a d., to try to find a way to make myself hold my head up high...and keep moving in the direction that will show him I am a strong person and that waht and who he left behind for that ow is worth coming back for. It won't be easy in any way because of the pain and anger and resentment. So, you have to pretend...that is waht the Harley's tell you to do...pretend,pretend, pretend, pretend that you are the happiest person and that you want this d. YOu want the space and freedom.I agree with your comments about ws's comments come from ow's mouth. After my H stopped first d. hearing, she found out from his sister (whom I told); then, ow called mein the middle of the night during one of their drinking episodes, and told me my H wanted to talk to me. I hung up. Then, I didn't hear from him for 3 weeks..and when I did, he said "we are divorcing", and I said, no,you are divorcing me.Then, he stopped the next hearing which was a month later. He called and told me he wanted to reconcile--but made no real effort to try. so, 9/00 to 3/01, there was no movement toward d. nor toward reconciliation...then, in March 01, amended the original petitioin of june2000. And the heariing was june 15, 2001. 18 months since the A started, 15 months since he left, and 21 years after we were married on June 7, 1980. I can say that I am in shock. It is very difficult to accept or believe. And for what--so he could be true to himself...For now, I have no faith that the partnership will end and I see a marriage--her fourth--he will be her fourth husband--what an honor he will have achieved...and what devastation he will have heaped upon all of us...Enough for now....thinking of you..keep in touch...elo

The difference between fog and love, is Lust. It's unfinished business that wasn't worked out in the past.

Hi, WeNeQn, So you think that Fog means "lust unsatisfied". Would you agree with my interpretation? For my H, I might concur with alcohol being another factor in the equation. After the A was revealed when he and ow were in dwi accident together, both drunk, he admitted that she paid for them to go and stay at Holiday Inns. She was living with a cousin who brought her to LA from TX where she was in jail for DWI conviction. So, my H and ow had no where to go to engage in their "Lustful activities" except in a hotel room--or in his truck!My H's affair began as physical and became emotional and remained physical. AFter the accident in which she was injured, she filed for a bodily injury lawsuit--she got $25,000- and Bonnie and Clyde were off...my H benefitted from his own auto ins. policy!!!So, this began to crystallize the emotional and physical affair...and it hasn't ended yet...18 months from the accident, 15 months since he abandoned me and our children, and June 7 was our 21st wed. anni. D. hearing was June 15 and he hasn't looked back with remorse yet...he has no pain..alcohol and affair being the buffers and the insultation...infatuation and passion are very effective insulators for someone who has the agenda to be "true to himself" and thinks happiness comes from somewhere else than from inside themself.As much as I want to hang onto the statistics that affairs die a natural death and hopes that this one will before a d, I learned otherwise. It continued right into a d. and he will, more than likely, become her FOURTH husband.And IF he ever sees the light, sees his mistakes, and wants to take care of his drinking problem first, then, perhaps, he might find the road back...For now, as hard as it is to admit, IF "IF" EVER BECOMES "WHEN", I believe that it will be WHEN I AM "LEAST" EXPECTING IT TO HAPPEN.So what happens from here on out...the tragedy and torment of divorce seriously and deeply affects me and my three beautiful children....financially and emotionally we are in trouble...because one night his decision to drink led him to a bar where this "leech" lurked in the dark shadows of the bar...and he "DRANK TIL SHE WAS CUTE",...It is impossible to say that all of this is OK and I have no problem with it all. I am frazzled, and torn, and tired, and devastated. If I cry, my children are so sad and they don't know what to say. If I don't cry, they think that I don't care... I still care and I still love my H, but, of course, I don't love his actions that have led us to this point...Thanks for letting me vent....any comments? What is your situation? affair,etc. elo

I'm not exactly sure I agree totally with the LUST not being worked out before. What it seems like to me...is FREEDOM not being worked out before.Sometimes it seems like my H is stuck in the second of Erikson's stages of developement....I can't remember the name, but it is the toilet training stage....or the stage of "NO"... To get info out of my H is like asking a toddler to go to the bathroom. They hold it....ie. control.My h has been so secretive about any of his activities. I didn't know where he lived, his phone numbers...and he seems to have about 5 phones.... a few cells...all private.Like I'm going to sell this important info to the Russians.He sneaks doing everything and even told the kids not to tell me. What a hoot. CONTROL CONTROL CONTROL.Funny thing is, he is involved with the control queen!!!!But you are right, i think, it is something not worked out in their past. I told my H he should have just smoked pot like the rest of us.He was so straight laced... studious...school, school, school, no fun. Luckily I didn't marry him till I was 32 and he 33...so I know I am not the one to stop him from all the "fun" he missed.

Tootrusting, Your comments abour "control" are very interesting and I can say that my ws is trying to maintain "control" of parts of our life together while he is at a distance.Yet, he can't control his own life now. He is a mess but can't see it. Of course, I am the fault for his messy life. I am now determined, after seeing what a mess he was in court last week at the hearing that he wanted so much so he could be "true to himself", taht I am the one pushing the buttons to control my life...He thinks I can afford to stay in this house, this sinking ship, at $1,000 per month and still pay to maintain it...He says if I leave the house, I am taking our children away from the "family residence"!Get that! And where is the father of that family? Sleeping in adultery nightly with a 2x dwi convicted ow who has been marr/div 3x. No, no, no, this is not a family residence any more since he walked premeditatively with plenty of money in his pocket to drink and party with ow and use for rent where he moved. I can't stay here with all the memorires of our life together. But, of course, if I move I am the one who is hurting our children...not him who deserted his family...The guilt is too much for him so he tries to place it on me. One day, I feel very confident, he will look back and say to himself: life with my wife was good...why did I think the grass was greener? How could I let go of a smart, kind woman of integrity who loves me and our children? For now, as sad as I am and as hard as it is, I will just trod through this one day at a time.

elo, Yes, control.... my H also does the same things re: the house... When I try to set any boundaries or discuss and reality... control control control. I wanted to move home which is pretty far from here. (about 600 miles)... I have been a SAHM for the past 12 years... I realize that it was my choice too, but my H always had some great excuse for me not to work. And I do feel fortunate that I've been home witht he kids....I also followed my H for 3 job changes...which led us here, far from family and friends. (my H does not have a good track record for sticking with anything!!!)So I tried to discuss my moving with him. I was very nice about it...told him I wished him great happiness in his new life, that I would do everything in my power to make the distance work...as in visitation etc.... (mind you H walked out saying that if he saw the kids once a year it would be enough....and that they would be OK)I told him I wanted to be able to work up to my education level (which I most likely will not be able to do here in this small town)...and that I'd like to be in a larger city where we (kids and I) will find many more families like "us" and where I could hopefully meet someone. (Believe me...it won't be here in this small family oriented town...or at least not for a long time)He didn't hear a word I said...just became a maniac telling everyone I was taking his kids from me to punish him etc etc... Naturally everyone believes him... Boy, he is the luckiest man in the world. He is a successful surgeon, makes $$$$, his patients think he is so devoted.... He is very intelligent.... So he gets away with it. I want to say...hey...look...he walked out etc. etc.But what is the point. LIke I said before, at least I know I am not the one who stopped him from doing the things he wanted.... In the meantime, I'm selling the house anyway. And yes, again he thinks I am having the kids give up their "home"///Too bad. I tell him that the kids and I need a change too. We also have our own destiny, and I am not going to allow him to define me or the kids. He can define himself!!!

Tootrusting, I like that last line: I am not going to let him define me and the kids. Let him define himself.I could not have said this so succintly (accurately and appropriately). My H, sad to say, has defined himself as a person who had abandoned and deserted and neglected his family. He has chosen to live in adultery with ow who is abuser of alcohol like him. From what you have told me, you have been through a lot of garbage. It never ceases to amaze me how many different stories I read about here. Control and blame is the name of their game.I keep telling myself that I just don't care any more. I figure that if I say it enough, I will begin to believe myself and I won't care any more. When I care, the pain is unbearable. I have to insulate myself from the pain. What hurts so much, though, is that this is my children's father. And, at this time, I feel that they are actually better off not being around him. At times, I wish he would just leave, so I wouldn't have to even consider doing so.He has no shame and comes back to our town where he lived with us for 20 years--with that woman --and my children and I have see him. I want to move because this is too traumatizing for us. I am seriously considering all my options. I am to the point that I just don't care what he says or thinks about waht I do. In my heart, I will do waht I have to so I can survive emotionally and finacially.My H doesn't want to sell house; he blames me if I move out and take kids away from the house--that he deserted and doesn't appear to want to have anything to do with--except try to make me feel guilty if I move.I can't afford to pay mortages on the little child support that I will receive--let alone maintain it. It is already been almost at foreclosure-when after not paying me any money after a court order, he "miracuously found $5000 to pay the eight months owed on it"--then expected me to keep up the note of $1000 each and still take care of our children with the same money...he is so out of touch with reality...he left me with our three children and he has no idea waht it cost to take care of their needs. My plan is to file bankruptcy, discharge the house and let it foreclose. Taht way he can't even try to move in it (with or without the ow). He hasn't even filed his 2000 tax return---and since he left 3/00, he has to file single and he claimed 10 exemptions on his w2...So, I know he will have a large amount of tax to pay for 2000. He has legal fees coming out of his>>>> and he is sooooooo happy and being "true to himself". As hurt and devastated as I am for me and my children, I just don't care what he thinks. And I doubt if he will try to see them any more than he has for the last 15 months, which hasn't been much at all. I don't see how he could face them...our 14 year old dtr. doesn't even want to see him and our 11 year old dtr. will follow suit. Our 16 year old son is going to see him as a means to an end...go eat or ask for money...How can he repair the damage he has done? Well, he can send the ow packing, and then enter a detox unit...Well, I know that is a change in a million,...So, he did what he thought he needed to do to be true to self and be happy...and I will do waht I need to take care of my children with less money... He left them with me and he never looked back..regardless of what a court says, he doesn't care about them or doesn't intend to help me pay for taking care of them.This entire ordeal seems surreal to me. I just keep hoping that I wake up from this nightmare...Thanks for this discourse...keep in touch...elo

hi elo, yes it does seem surreal. It is truly sad that they are in this state. Now that my kids know...."all" or sort of all..they at least know about the baby... I feel a weight has been lifted off of me.I can really back away..and protect myself more, and even feel some compassion. They haven't realized how much they lose by not getting thehelp they need.Because they can hide in their addictions... (OP's, alcohol, or in my H's case his work persona (and the oP), the all the issues are still there...and they will haunt them). Like you, I just want to have my own life now. I'm not quite in financial ruin, but my H does not want to give me money I can tell you that. He writes me a check for child support with "child support--month" in the memo section of the check like I am the house keeper or something.It is such a joke. I just don't let it get to me. Like I said it is his problem. I'm afraid my H just lost probably the only person who believed in him.... me. Anyone else who knows him, including his family, says...this is H... He'll just always be searching, be unhappy etc. etc. THis is his destiny etc etc. I think I am the only person who believed he was more than he does. I believed he was who he was. Does that make sense?This is the most painful experience that I have gone through. And different than yours (since your H is drinking and his ow has problems)...my H is "socially acceptable" at least in work... so I doubt he'll hit rock bottom any time soon.

R, et al.:Just read through this thread. Good job Redon, kudos!Fog v. Love: The fog cannot stand the light of day; true love, on the other hand, relishes and basks in the sunlight.Godspeed to all, STL

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by JenniJ: My H and OW broke up in the midst of their fog. They both had strong romantic feelings for each other, but a need to do the right thing (and other circumstances) ended the relationship. <snip> Now to the question... He was not out of the fog and was almost obsessed with her at the time of the end of the relationship. Therefore, the relationship did not die a natural death. I know a part of him still loves her and will always look at her and the relationship through a distorted view.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>JenniJ,This is so similar to my own experience, I have to pose a question to you (or anyone else who would like to chime in).My WS is completely obsessed with his OW. It's been over for around 4 weeks now, with absolutely no contact on her part. It turns out she has a personality disorder that allowed her to "split" and go from seeing him as all good to seeing him as all evil; she has basically turned everything off. He, on the other hand, spent the first three weeks after their breakup (which he initiated) calling her and emailing her obsessively, trying to get her to contact him. Their relationship had turned very addictive, and he's having a horrible time getting beyond the need for his "fix." He admits that he doesn't even want to get back together with her, that it's more about the control over her life that he used to have and lost so suddenly. It drives him nuts.His therapist suggested it's a form of "narcissistic injury", in which he was built up as the center of the OW's universe over the course of a year, and then dropped like a hot potato in the course of one day. Like a huge blow to his ego that's temporarily debilitating.My question: It's a little better each day, each week, but I'm wondering how long I should expect this to go on. Does anyone have experience with this? The reason I'm posting this here is that the Fog seemed to lift the first week he was cut off from her. He turned to me and emotionally engaged me for the first time in MONTHS; but now he's hunkered down inside himself again. Says that I/our relationship should have more energy and should be able to draw him out and overwhelm his feelings/obsession for her. He's frustrated that I'm not doing this for him.Anyway, I've been LBing, and I'm trying to stop, but I'm frustrated, hurt and annoyed. I know I need to get back to Plan A, but it's actually harder now that it's over and he's still pining for the dysfunction. But I love him, and I'll keep trying. Thanks for the opportunity to vent.el[This message has been edited by ellie1 (edited June 26, 2001).]

hi ellie, It is absolutly no fun to have your spouse obsessed with the OW, huh? Toward the end of the A, my H was driving by her house, driving around looking for her, all kinds of crazy behavior... He could think of nothing else and cried for her..... oh it was heartbreaking and sickening.This kind of behavior/thinking lasted for about six months (including the few weeks before the breakup, and for several months after no contact started.) He moved 700 miles away from her. I think this ultimately saved our relationship because it put him away from her maniplutative behavior. (She would intentionally do things to "yank his chain" and make him jealous and make him crazy about her) He lost the obsession the more he was away from her. Although the way it ended was not the way I would like (leaving a romantic view of the relationship) it did end and I am thankful.After I posted my last post the other day, my H and I talked about this last night. He admits he still somewhat looks at the relationship in a "idealized state" but he realizes with his head that he knows it would never work and that they never had to deal with the mundane chores of life. He thinks I am a much better life partner and loves me now and is "inlove". So he can look back on the relationship with a better perspective now after almost 2 years of no contact. ButI still have my questions that I posted the other day... Obsession seems to end, but do the romantic feelings ever fade?I hope all this rambling helped. If not, please feel to ask more or to post back to me with more questions. God bless.. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Wow, six months. Oof! At this point, that seems realistic, although I'd certainly prefer it to be different.The thing about my WS is that we already live 1500 miles away from the OW. They found each other online, and it morphed into an intense phone affair lasting for over a year. They saw each other once a month for 8 or 9 months, but the last 4 months never saw each other once. Instead they talked on the phone for 2-3 hours a day, growing more addicted to their own dynamic all the while. That's what he's missing so much: the fact that she made herself unfailingly available to him for so long, at all costs. She let her own life fall to pieces out there (isolated herself from friends, got fired from her job) because she thought she'd be moving out here to be with him. I really appreciate your perspective on the situation, and I'm glad you guys have worked things out. I can speak from experience about the persistence of feeling, though. I've only been in love with one other person in my life, and it took several years after we ended things before the feelings completely faded. I have 7 years' distance from it now, and I haven't felt feelings of love for that person in probably a couple of years. Anyway, thank you so much for your posts. This community is such a lifesaver!el

I thought this was a very good thread. Time to revive it back to the top.....

Thank you, Faith. You're right, this post ROCKS! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Lv, Jo

Worthy of a nudge back to the TOP! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Jo

bump again... just to be sure.... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

good stuff here...Jo, we're keeping this ball off the ground!!! .... back over the net.... your turn - don't let it hit the bottom! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

worth bumping up [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Bumpity bump!

Bump, bump, bump, bump it up!