Hope this helps some of the folks out here struggling with "are the lying to me?" I'm not absolutely positive that these techniques worked for me, but they did give me something else to concentrate on when I used to talk the WS in the deep, deep BS days. Check out the links below, they are all short articles about the physiology of lying. <BR> <A HREF="http://www.weeno.com/art/0799/106.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.weeno.com/art/0799/106.html</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.allsands.com/HowTo/howtotellifs_xsj_gn.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.allsands.com/HowTo/howtotellifs_xsj_gn.htm</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://thirdbane.www.50megs.com/bored.html" TARGET=_blank>http://thirdbane.www.50megs.com/bored.html</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.iboomerage.com/jul99/lying.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.iboomerage.com/jul99/lying.html</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.bergen.com/morenews/liars1199907258.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.bergen.com/morenews/liars1199907258.htm</A> <BR>

This fixation on lying is kinda interesting just for the subject matter alone. As a ws I knew at some point I would "need" to lie (for some pragmatic reasons). I personally have no issue with the concept of lieing, it is just another part of human communication, every single human being lies. The issue is intent of course, and when, how, and to who you lie. Maritally one would like (and rightly so) to have total honesty, personally I would like marital partners to be telepaths and be able to read each others minds, that kind of mergeing into one feels good to me. So re this forum (and it's issues) lieing is baaaaaaaaaaaaad. <P>Anyways, being a normal person, who lied very little, and mostly just to avoid conflict. And also one who desires truth, and is generally a compulsive confessor to stuff, I knew I would was gonna have a problem sooner or later. So I mentally prepared. I anticipated the questions and situations likely to come up and had "answers", (that was relatively easy), then I had to contemplate the looking guilty part. This was hard, I did not like the idea of decieveing my wife, but I made a concious decision to do so, until I understood what was happening to me (guess you could say that fundamentally means the ws does not trust their spouse, but I guess that is a given), my reasoning being we all have a right to lie if we need too, which I still think is true. Having made the decision (and thereby satisfied my ethical dilemma), I contemplated how not to "look" guilty. I am not sure how I did this, and maybe it is akin to what actors do (or folks who beat polygraphs), but I took on the belief that my "responses" were the truth, were reality, and when the time came, I looked my wife right in the eye and lied through my teeth. <P>Before you judge me too harshly, I know/knew I was wrong, and I knew there was a price, not only was I damaging my own ethics, but I was deliberately hurting my wife(by damaging further her ability to trust, not only me, but anyone). I did not do this lightly, and will never be able to defend that is was not just being a lowlife selfish bum (so I won't try), but I had my reasons, and they still stand, hopefully the "damage" is more in the line of learning experience than permanent injury. However, I am going to make sure I am not in such a position ever again. And I am gradually telling my wife (and will tell her everything in due time), all the secrets.<P>Some of you know I am pretty analytical, so don't know how much this applies to your ws, but I suspect more or less my reasons apply to some of yours. Particualarly the ones who aren't really abusive to you, and obviously care about you, but are not really sure about being in-love and what that means. Also IMO most of the bs lie too, in one way or another, mostly conflict avoidance, I suspect avoidance is rampant in marriages.... I really like the MB principles re honesty, is a very powerful tool for marital harmony, and an early warning system for trouble. I bet most marriages would divorce or repair, before an A if that policy were ridgidly adhered too.

HI..<P>Thanks for the info. Ya know the interesting thing about a WS and lying? They do it so well and so often that it becomes impulsive/compulsive. We tend to lie and lie and get lost in them, forget what we said the previous five lies, and finally, lie about lying. In effect, we spin that web that we ultimately get caught in. The first few sound so good, and our BS usually believe them, that we spin more and more, and ultimately they sound so stupid, that we cant even believe we said it. It becomes such a way of life for the WS. WS....it doesnt work and the only one youre fooling is yourself...if your BS has a gut instinct you are lying...they will find out...sooner or later!! I know that when the lies finally stopped and I finally came clean, I sure sleep alot better. I don't cringe when the phone rings, and I am not afraid to turn on the computer anymore. Amazing freedom...LOL!!<P>Thanks again Hi Infidelity!!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

Thanks for the links Hi Infidelity.<P>When he lied to me, my husband looked me right in the face but his eyes were like ice.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I know that when the lies finally stopped and I finally came clean, I sure sleep alot better. I don't cringe when the phone rings, and I am not afraid to turn on the computer anymore. Amazing freedom...LOL!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Trueheart, it's interesting you mention this. My WH was always up in the middle of the night unable to sleep. It stopped about 6 months ago, but last night he was up from 2:30 until after 4.<P>I asked him if anything was weighing on his mind, but he said no. I don't believe him, but what can I do! I can only go by what he says to be truth.<P>I did find something in his email today that I need to ask him about. It appears he opened an account somewhere, but not sure if this is an informational secure site or if it also has email. I'm just afraid he'll give me a major lie when I ask him about it.<P>I agree everyone tells little lies now and again (even me, but very rarely, ), but I don't tell major lies. I just can't handle my internal guilty conscience so I tell truths to avoid that icky feeling in my stomach.<P>Thanks for the information!<P> <BR><P>------------------<BR><B><I>RECOVER * REFOCUS * REGENERATE ~ BREATHE * RELAX</I></B><P>By Eleanor Roosevelt ~~<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><BR><LI>"People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is built." <P><LI>"No one takes advantage of you without your permission."<BR></UL>

In my case as the BS, Somehow I knew deep down that something about my WS words were just not quite right, but just didn’t even occur to me that my Wife was lying to me. After 10 years together, it just wasn't even a potential option that crossed my mind. Eventually over time, I seemed to be stark raving crazy (according to my peers) as most of the things that I used to consider constants in life were no-longer had the firm boundaries I had become accustomed to living with.<P>Pre D-Day and pre-snooping (on my part), I even let my wife convince me that I needed to see a shrink and I agreed. Never been to one in my life prior and had always been told by others that I was one of the most stable folks they knew of.<P>Walking through the shrink's front door was one of the scariest things I ever did. I remember the shrink asking me why I was there and telling him "I'm not real sure but I think I might be loosing it" All that I knew was my wife had me believing I was violent and crazy, and asked me to move out for a few while because she was scared. Even though this made no sense to me because I had not struck a person in over 15 years (college barroom type stuff), I heeded her request. <P>The only real thing I had going for me is I have a keen mind for following time lines, logical paths and sniffing bullsh!t out from my former career consulting as a systems analyst and project manager. Without even realizing it, I had been conversing with my wife in my with that business mindset of a prosecuting attorney whenever an inconsistency arose. <P>So, those time line and logic discrepancies where what the shrink closed in on after about 3 sessions. On the sixth session he assured me that I wasn't loosing it at all and he would like my wife to attend my next session with me. She refused my request and his office even tried to contact her telling her that her participation was key to helping me. She of course did not reply back. My last session with the shrink (the 7th) he told me that;<P>1. If I felt it was OK, This would be our last session together.<BR>2. He felt given the circumstances, I was totally in control of my faculties and was not in danger of harming anyone or anything.<BR>3. He or anyone else couldn't provide any additional help outside of support (which I had many close friends and relatives for) until my wife wanted to join me in some form of counseling.<P>Then he said he had no way of telling for sure but my wife & I problems might be caused by:<P>1. She might have had some severe post pardom depression from our second and last child who was 2.5 at the time. And this condition untreated could manifest into several other problems.<BR>2. She could have some early MLC or hormonal conflicts in her life.<BR>3. She might be having romantic feelings about or seeing someone else.<BR>4. She could have some very deep-seated mother, father type issues that did not surface until she became a mother herself.<P>I asked him what he would do and he response was "Be supportive of her, quit questioning her on the inconsistencies, treat her like she is ill and try to regain her trust and at that time try to get her into counseling"<P>So I opted to believe #1 or #2 and followed his advice.<P>Ultimately, after about 2 months back at home being the supportive spouse. I started snooping and found some very incriminating emails on her laptop between her and her boss (they traveled together quite often). Even then I still didn’t want to believe the truth. I struggled for some time with the fact that I had 1)invaded her privacy by snooping 2)lied to her to do it by telling her I wanted to see how her new email software worked because I was think about upgrading mine. I really thought I was ready to go back and see the shrink. Instead I spoke with one of my very close friends who had known my wife and I from the time we had met. He said "he just couldn’t believe it, but a spade is a spade and it’s time for me to come clean on the snooping" So I humbly apologized to her for looking but found these emails and wanted to know what the meant. She told me they were just a joke, sound familiar to anyone here. Even then it took me another month or so before I could bring myself to totally believe that she was lying. Oh yea the rash of [censored] I received for snooping and acting jealous and thinking she was doing something inappropriate was incredible to say the least. <P>Finally the her cell phone bill and other traveling expenses pushed me to the point seeing that she truly was lying. Phone calls to OMs cell at 3am 4am and 6am and bar tabs that the only 2 drink types were the kind the drink were dead giveaways on trips that he supposable wasn't on.<P><BR>So the morals of the story are:<P>1. If you have never been a BS before and you’re still in pre-D day, you may feel like you're crazy but you're probably not. When you blindly trust someone you love it's almost impossible to believe that they could lie to you about such important issues. You might even be acting crazy because the foundation of your life was just turned upside down and no one bothered to tell you.<BR>2. If you're not the jealous type then try not to deny the facts. If it quacks like a duck, you know the rest…..<BR>3. The lying links I list above are for those who already know for sure or are past D day. <P><BR>Also I think Free2Bme's & trueharts comments on not sleeping are an excellent sign of your spouse having trouble with some type of issue. I read somewhere that in our sleep is the one and only place that we can not hide from ourselves because the sub-conscience know the truth and the conscience mind is not there to run block those thoughts. I know my wife used to get up several time a night, but then again so did I whilst in denial. Not even prescribed sleeping pills could keep us down for more than about 3 hours.<P>Take care all and thanks for letting me write this condensed version of war and peace.<P><BR>

Hmmm....thanks for the input re: not sleeping. I had forgotten that. H had trouble sleeping during A despite long hrs at work. Sleep was not a problem before A and hasn't been since it ended.

Isn't it nice after thinking you're crazy to find that you're not?<P> <P>------------------<BR><B><I>RECOVER * REFOCUS * REGENERATE ~ BREATHE * RELAX</I></B><P>By Eleanor Roosevelt ~~<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><BR><LI>"People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is built." <P><LI>"No one takes advantage of you without your permission."<BR></UL>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by celandine:<BR><B>Hmmm....thanks for the input re: not sleeping. I had forgotten that. H had trouble sleeping during A despite long hrs at work. Sleep was not a problem before A and hasn't been since it ended.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, my H hadn't been sleeping well either, for a long while prior to leaving to pursue PA. He used to "lie" and tell me it was bec of back pain. Yeah! I'll just BET his back was bothering him! <P>The lying stuff was a little harder to zero in on: H has always been something of an "habitual liar" - meaning he sometimes lied about even stupid, small things. I would hear him tell someone a stupid, little lie, and I couldn't believe it! I mean, it wasn't even an important detail, but he somehow needed to LIE!! His whole family does it, so I shouldn't have been surprised. <P>BUT I thought I knew him well enough to be able to spot his lies. He was good at it, though, at the "end" - just before he left. Had me convinced the atty who called our house was giving him "Free advice" and was going tohelp with our legal problems with a local contractor! I bought it. Found out later he was D. atty and H had papers drawn up already <P>

As for sleeping, can't speak for other ws, but I had/have no problem sleeping, before, during, or now.....except for staying up late on the comp.

sad n lonely:<P>If you do one thing in this world....tell your w. everything. I am living for the day when I get the truth confirmed. At that point, I will digest it, junk it, reaffirm my love for my SO and we'll get on with it. Your w. probably knows 10 times what you think she does, but is keeping it all inside because you have denied too many things. It will leak out in the form of tension, depression, who knows what else. I bet she thinks about it EVERY DAY. If I can't get SO to tell the truth to me right now, maybe I can get you to think about it for your marriage. Please??????<BR>Robyn.

Thank you HiIn.....<P>I need reminders in what to look for regarding lies. What's that Rod Stewart song????....goes something like....You lied...straight faced...while I cried. YEP that's the one.<BR>Reminds me of the "H" Now what's the title???<BR>Anyone?<BR>Thanks again...D2k

I couldn't resist responding to the thread....mainly because of the subject line. My SIL once asked me if I knew how to tell if my husband (her brother) was lying. And, clueless me stated, "How?" She responded with, "When his lips move." OMG.....I about died from laughter. BTW, my husband doesn't lie.....pffffffffft <P>Sorry, I just could not help posting this......tee hee hee.<P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B>

How to spot a liar....... <P>1. they can't look at you in the eye and they have a hundred reasons why they can't. <P>2. the story changes<P>3. they have memory loss<P>4. they get angry quickly<P>5. blame you for things they did<P>6. give I don't know as the reason<P>7. are quick to judge your actions<P>8. can be extremely jealous<P>9. accuses you of lying<P>10. brings up the past when they are on the spot<P>11. avoids main issues<P>12. careful to word their responses<P>13. slow to respond<P>14. rewrites history<P>15. has regular brain fades<P>16. suspicious laughs<P>17. short tempered<P>18. has difficulty sleeping<P>19. or sleeps too much<P>20. sleeps to avoid contact<P>21. major conflict avoider<P>22. says I was going to tell you .....<P>etc.<P>L.<P>

I just have to add a 'lying' story. Very shortly after D-day, but before I found MB...I was in contact with OW's H. We discovered that both my H and his W were going to traffic school, the same day, the same place...curious coincidence, no???<P>Anyway...First I asked H if I could meet him for lunch...we often did that...wasn't an unusual request. He, of course, said No, that he didn't want to do anything but sleep for lunch (yeah, I'll bet --)<P>Then, because his brakes were bad, I offered to drive him there and pick him up...OOOOOOO. talk about angry. I kept asking...why so angry.<P>Then, I just plain--straight out asked him...was he meeting OW there. Look me in the eye and tell me you won't be seeing her there....HE DID. Looked me straight in the eye and said she wouldn't be there....it was all I could do not to laugh.<P>Later, when he got home, I told him that OW's H and I both knew, in advance....that he may just as well stop lying because I KNEW and COULD FIND OUT everything. (He still didn't know that I was accessing his private e-mail accts at that time...plus I could also check his cell phone voicemail and just skip messages so they didn't appear to have been listened to yet...boy we get as sneaky as they do--terrible thing..)<P>Anyway...just thought I'd share that...and this is from a man that HATES LYING AND LIARS!<P>He has since apologized for lying...I just wish he'd apologize for other things as well.<P>Cali

Robyn....At one time I thought it was best to keep some things secret, for the usual reasons. I am a believer now in the concept of radical honesty, and whether my wife and I remain married or not I will tell her everything, and have been doing so in little bits. Stuff makes her very angry so we only do a little at a time. You (and harleys etc.) are correct, there is no way to not injure someone by keeping things from them they need (have a right to know). I cannot protect her from my feelings and what may or may not happen in our marriage (a consequence of emotional honesty), but I can (and will) give her her dignity re the secrets, and not patronize her. As I said before, their is lying and their is lying. IMO conflict avoidance has it's place up to a point, but maybe only as a deferral for the momement. It is all well and good for folks to spout off about needing the truth, but when they get it, and respond with anger or other over the edge behaviour, well.... I figure they don't deserve the truth, is a two way street IMO....you can't require someone be truthful, then beat the crap out of them when they do, not in this lifetime anyways, and I will go to the wall with anyone who wants to argue that point. Anyways I digress, my wife may indeed beat me up (divorce me with predjudice) when I discuss all the secrets, but she deserves the truth, and I will take my lumps (in more ways than anyone but me will ever know), because it is the responsible thing to do, and because despite the marital disharmony and the A, I really don't want to hurt her gratuitiously.

I love this song. I keep a copy of it up on my bulletin board.<P>Nell <BR>***********************************************************<P>Reason to Believe<BR>By Rod Stewart & Tim Hardin<P>If I listened long enough to you<BR>I'd find a way to believe that it's all true<BR>Knowing that you lied straight face while I cried<BR>Still I look to find a reason to believe<P>Someone like you makes it hard to live without <BR>somebody else<BR>Someone like you makes it easy to give <BR>never thinking about myself<P>If I gave you time to change my mind<BR>I'd find a way to leave the past behind<BR>Knowing that you lied straight faced while I cried<BR>Still I look to find a reason to believe<P>Someone like you makes it hard to live without<BR>somebody else<BR>Someone like you makes it easy to give<BR>never thinking about myself<P>If I listened long enough to you<BR>I'd find a way to believe that it's all true<BR>Knowing that you lied straight faced while I cried<BR>Still I look to find a reason to believe<BR>Still I look to find a reason to believe<BR>Still I look to find a reason to believe<BR>Still I look to find a reason to believe

Nell,<P>That is a special song to me also. Because of the lyrics. So real!!! H hates Rod Stewart, he is ok in my books. But the words have real meaning now. <P>Thanks for posting it. <P>L.

HOW DO YOU ACCESS PRIVATE E-MAIL ACCOUNTS? I NEED TO KNOW.

MSWEESE,<BR>First you must have access to the computer the email user uses and load some snooping software. Several posts on the various brands of software can be found on this board by running a search on the word snoop. Most of them can be purchased and downloaded directly off the WWW.<P><BR>

MsWeese:<P>On snooping software: one of the best available for a reasonable amount is 007Starr by ioPus ( <A HREF="http://www.iopus.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.iopus.com</A> ; they also have a free program that will detect passwords.<P>(In both cases, however, you have to have access to the other person's computer in order to install them.)<P>On the lighter side of the posted thread: How Do You Spot a Liar? With a paint brush and little dabs of paint.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Sad_n_lonely is my H. Yes he lied BIG time! I knew there were lies before I found out for sure about the affair in February. He left the receipt to the flowers he sent her on the dresser, pobox #, safe deposit box, her pobox #, etc. What hurts is the lies that he said to me and tried to keep a straight face. I could see that he was lying, lived with him for 23 years. I found a sexually graphic card lying on the driveway addressed to her next to his vehicle. Thankfully, the kids didn't find it. <P>Yes, a liar has to live with himself the rest of their lives. I am so glad I am not in their shoes. How can they live with themselves knowing what they have done and GOD has seen everything? My husband has no remorse in the affair at all. He continuously reminds me of this, that the affair happened for a reason. Yes, to fulfill his EN and to betray his family. Maybe one day he will feel remorse.<P>One thing is that he is being honest with me in telling me things that the 2 of them have done. I can't handle some, they hurt so bad! He just comes back with thanks a lot for me being honest to you and this is what I get. I am thankful for the honesty, but the truth hurts like h***. Don't you see H how this hurts too? That is why I talk to Jennifer about things, she doesn't criticize me and helps me. H is not there to protect me yet, he still does protect the OW now and wants to protect her in the future. I don't get it at all. <P>Besides the OW is lying to her husband every single minute of her life. She has not told her husband about the affair as yet, I have known for 5 months. Their affair started in June of 2000 (first connection to each other) and I was told the first connection was the start of the affair. H told me after 5 minutes on the internet he knew there was something special about her. But the OW is living in lies every minute and seems to not have any remorse about it at all. She wants to keep it a secret from her husband, My H seems to be OK with it and has asked me to not send the OW husband info I have to show him what his wife is doing. How can one profess to be a christian and know that GOD is seeing what she is doing to her husband and family and she has no remorse about it at all. She should come out clean and do it now. The hurt will come eventually, and I know he will be upset with her (this is her 2nd affair). So why prolong the agony here and with her family, and get it over with. There is something mentally wrong with what she is doing. I will not sent the H the evidence I have, per Jennifer Harley saying. But if H and I separate or D, the package will go. I have no bad feelings about sending the info, her H needs to know and I don't know what kind of woman she is to keep my H her dirty little secret. Yes, there is some revenge, but mostly I hate for her keeping my H her secret. And don't understand why my H wants it this way and not to spill everything out. Our kids are hurt big time, let her family know what is happening and the consequences will prevail. The trust in her will not be there after she tells all, but do you blame everyone for not trusting her. I wouldn't, but I would forgive and just keep a close watch on her to help her get through this. Also, she will probably need psychological help. There is something mentally going on that is not right with her. Maybe she needs medication, for manic depressive personality, or bi-polar or something. She is a grandmother to 2 little grandgirls. Why kind of grandmother can she be knowing every minute of her life she is a liar? I wouldn't want this for my grandkids. She has to watch what she says all the time, and keep herself in control. What kind of life is that. With this in herself, how can she be happy, show her family everything is alright, I bet the family knows something is wrong. <P>Liars are Satan and if they ask for forgiveness and deep inside want to be better people, they will receive if they are honest with GOD. Everything has to be said and known.

bump