Need MORE guidance, just got another email. - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Oh goody, I just got an email and there goes the rest of my day/week. Please guide me in my response. Here's her message: <blockquote>quote:<hr> This is the message I sent Ann (her sister) just now. It sums up how I feel and I lost it. Basically, it said that I am done, you want another chance and I don't have that in me, that I know it will take time for everyone to realize that and that if it makes me the bad guy, so be it. I can't possibly explain all my reasons to everyone, and frankly, it's most important that I am comfortable with my effort or non-effort as I'm sure some will view it.

I'm not sure whether it's a good idea for me to see you every week or to even consider doing things with you, because I think it gives you false hope. It's not that you and I can't get along when we're doing fun things or projects; it's that emotionally, on the wife/husband level, I can't and don't want to be there. You and all your internet folks think that means that I'll develop those feelings, but I know that there is no going back after all the creepy **** that has happened in the past three weeks. If I thought you could handle just being friends and working in therapy toward divorce, I'd say let's see each other and do stuff, but I just don't see that as healthy. What do you think? <hr></blockquote>I want to carefully think about my response, but I desperately need guidance right now. Please help.Kev[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ][ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ][ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]

I have to congratulate you on seeking help before replying. I do not have the answers but consider this as a reply:thats fine. take care.Then continue to Plan A with her initiating contact. She wants space. You can't force her to stay with you. I don't know what she is expecting but i think the 4 words above will have her questioning herself. She already knows how you feel so there is no sense going into all that. Remember this is just a dive in the rollercoaster - there will be many ups and downs like this to come. Hang in there and keep posting. Your doing great considering the horrible circumstances you have been put in.

I say don't respond - at least not right now and not by e-mail. Don't get sucked into the "urgent" mindset. None of this should be done in haste.Instead, draft a Plan B letter and seek opinions on going to Plan B. I admit to not knowing your recent course, thus, I am not up to speed on the quality of your Plan A and maybe Plan B isn't the right call right now.But, her statement is not surprising to me, and is probably more honest than any I've ever gotten. She's confused and is still convinced that there's no going back - likely a universal thought of all WSs at some point. So this is par for the course. There is nothing you can directly do to change her mind. This is where Plan B comes in after you make your Plan A improvements - isolate yourself from further pain (from direct contact) and wait out the Mothership's hold. Anything you do to try to change her mind - other than improving your contributions to the conditions that made the environment fertile for the A - will likely have the opposite effects.

Now I would not jump in and send a response to her. Let her wonder how you are taking it. It is very important for her not to see you as sitting on pins and needles. As a woman she feels she is very much in control of her decision (which in a sense she is but her day of awakening is still to come). Name calling her or telling like it is right now will do little good. It may backlash on you right now. We Venusians can be a wicked bunch. This is important that you recognize this. That could be why Steve H and others have said that when the W goes AWOL from a marriage, it is harder for them to return. RE: Women for the most part, premeditate and manipulate going into an A. Women know more what they are doing than a man. Ignorance is rare among a female WS. That is one of the reasons why women can be more vindictive. (Sorry ladies, but this is true and most of us know this). Another school of thought is that while we are aware of these attitudes, there is a way to deal with it. It may require a lot of patience on the H's part since the stronger the WS's pull out of the marriage the more patience it will require out of the BS. In some cases, it is too overwhelming for the BS to continue and then the marriage ties are severed. However, this is still not the end. Am I telling you to give up? No that is for you to decide. I am sharing some 'female' insight for you to consider. This is the kind of stuff that a female may never share with a 'guy'. Why should we? It exposes our vulnerable side. We much rather look coy and innocent all the while be devious in the background. Not all women are like this but many have the tendancy. It can be as simple as how we manipulate our dads, brothers, friends, teachers, workmates, bosses and husbands on simple vs more complex requests. Ex: W wants H to buy her a new diamond bracelet, so W will manipulate the family budget, plant the idea in H's mind so H can make the suggestion and then W will act 'surprised' when H hands it to W. Now the H has no idea how it will be paid for but the W has already made arrangements. See?!?!?? Sitcoms have been done on this subject. No War of the Roses here ok? Just be aware. At this point, it may serve a better purpose if you just sat and not respond to her e-mail for a couple of weeks. Wow that is long, can you endure it? Well that could be your challenge. Remember your W is still very much in the fog. You need to let her really experiece life out there with that little boy...... Stop enabling her. She wants to play then take the work with it also. Other solution: Send all WS Venusians back to Venus. The air is thinner there and there may be less fog. JMHO,
L.[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Orchid ]

WAT,Problem with that is, D-day was only 3 weeks ago, and the first two weeks after that I was a raving lunatic. Even this last weekend I LB'ed big time by (nearly) interrupting them at sex (including some borderline stalking).I HAVE been trying to Plan A, and I think I've had a limited amount of success recently. But it's just not enough time I think for her to BELIEVE in the changes in me. My fear is that Plan B will look an awefully lot like the place (depression, complete removal) that I've been for the last year. I intend to talk about that w/ Steve, but not until next week.I see your point in not responding at all, but then I fear she'll just draw me into it over the phone this evening- and I can be MUCH more in control of my thoughts/words if I write a response rather than LB'ing and blowing a gasket on the phone.I've said it before, and I'll repeat it.....IT'S ALL JUST SO QUICK!!! She's been in the PA for only 2 months, D-day was only 3 weeks ago, and plan A really only a week ago. I understand that she says that she's been done a LONG time before the PA, but then some of the things she's written (poems and such) in the last several months lead me to believe that's not ENTIRELY true.K

kev,
Have you read my long reply to your "Rant: how's and why's" thread??? If not, please do!!!It's interesting how your W shifts the blame to you for her unwillingness to give your marriage a second chance..."there's no going back after the creepy **** that has happened in the past few weeks," implying that perhaps there HAD been a chance, but YOU RUINED IT because you went crazy upon finding out about her A (normal BS behavior,on your part).You may need to do a longer plan A before going to plan B. That's the typical process, but only you have the best insight as to how your W would respond in either situation. But notheard has a VERY good suggestion with the "That's fine. Take care." response. It's right in line with my philosophy of "The one who cares the least..." Again, read my previous post to you, if you haven't!!Calla

kevco,Being a FWS, I can tell you it doesn't matter how long ago the PA started, if she thinks things haven't been good in a long while, the long while just grows longer and longer so she can justify what she is doing now. And it's so early into the discovery stage, that she truly believes that nothing will change and she will never have those feelings back for you. I have been in that very place.First thing you need to do is get control of your emotions, no matter how hard it is. You are more than capable of doing that. You are a strong man and will make it thru this. Just remind yourself of that. Whatever the outcome, you will survive and even thrive if you choose to see it that way.Next you have to stop stalking her and trying to find out her every move. That just makes you more upset and causes her to believe that she is more than justified in getting away from you.
So once again no matter how hard it is to look the other way, you have to try.Next you say she will call and want to discuss this email. Okay then write out what you would want to say and have it by the phone waiting. If she calls, you are ready. What really sticks out about how my H handled things was when we talked, he always said he only wanted what would make me happiest. Of course in the beginning, I knew it was going to be the OM and I felt very little sympathy for my H in what he was going thru. So don't expect any remorse from her. Just let her know that you want what is best for her. That you love her and leave it at that. Don't make any rash promises or statements. Just try to stay as calm as you can. Don't make any kind of decisions about the future. She is too deep into the fog right now to care about anything that concerns you.Then if you find youself ready to LB, just have an excuse written down on the paper and say and hang up. Then think of all the little things that she loved for you to do during the happy times in your marriage and do those. If she loves notes, write them. If she loves flowers, send a single flower to her. Just simple things that will tell her that you do love her and want what is best for her.One thing is that you don't discuss the A or anything to do with that. At this very point in her thinking, focus on what will make her happy even if it hurts. Because deep inside her, she knows what she is doing is wrong. And if there is any feelings at all for you, this will touch her. Oh she won't say anything now, but it will.And it's those little things that trigger the good memories that will bring her back to you.My prayers are with you.
Debbie

Orchid speaks a lot of truth and you should heed the wonderful advice given you here. I would respond, but very briefly. What notheard suggested is a superb idea. However, if you cannot bring yourself to such brevity, how about something along the lines of:I got your message and I would like some time to think about what you said before fully replying. However, in the meantime what you suggested is fine with me. If you don't feel like us spending time together is beneficial I certainly don't want to encourage you to do so. Take care,
HREMEMBER - Plan A is about you. It is about improving you! It is about focusing on you! Stalking her and begging and pleading is not plan a and will not acheive the desired result.You are right. It is all so quick. Even if she has been contemplating her unhappiness for much longer than that - the reality is still very very fresh. Step back (if you can) and let her breathe. You may even find yourself breathing easier. Send her a quick response. Keep it light. No pressure.
good luck,
M

In cases such as ours, Dobson has a theory that when one spouse pushes, the other naturally retreats and vice-versa. You may be surprised by her reaction if you retreat a little. Naturally, once you become a little mysterious, she's going to wonder what you are doing and why you had the sudden change of heart. Seems she's lost much respect for you and by becoming a little scarce and showing that you are perfectly capable of being happy on your own she'll gain that back.I got my WS back the first time by doing this. I was in almost the same exact boat as you. She found her "dream man". Even told me this one time. They were planning on getting married. Once I stopped the chasing and begging and started focussing on myself (lost weight, went out more and generally appeared in GREAT spirits - but naturally I was still not OK) she begain inching back towards me and blammo the grass that WAS so much greener begain to wilt.Hope that helps a little.

Kev --
you've gotten great advice.I especially like the perspective that wiffle gave you -- while it all seems like everything is happening at once to you...her unhappiness probably stretches a long way back.So far, everything you've posted seems like hyper/speed/fix-it quick. Somebody once described themselves as the Energizer bunny on speed. You're coming across to me that way.Remember I told you that you were stressing me out? I still sense that from you.Of course you don't want to be in the situation you're in. But you need to CALM DOWN. You're not gonna fix it overnight, and you're not gonna fix it by hammering at her day and night.Step back. Step away. Look to yourself. Most of all -- BE STRONG. Being needy is the worst thing you can do right now.You've got a great advantage in finding this site early in your discovery process. You'll get awesome advice.Plan A time is now....and Plan A is about YOU.

O- thank you for sharing the Venusian perspective, MAN, I wish there was a class us Martians could take on you gals! I rather like your final remark, send 'em back to Venus where the fog is thin. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Calla- Yes, I read your earlier reply. I really feel that I haven't had enough of a chance (in addition to working on the marriage) to fully implement plan A. I'm very aprehensive about moving to plan B right now....It feels like that would be just giving in and I'm afraid it might be interpreted by her as a "victory," as me FINALLY (after 3 weeks) giving up on the possibility of reconciliation. I won't give up on that for MONTHS if not YEARS!DLM- You're right, I CAN control my emotions (usually), and I'm trying. As a matter of fact, I have resigned myself to not following her, though the desire does still come up. I know I can't handle what I might find right now, and there's nothing I could do anyway that would help the situation. Though it WAS satisfying to think that he went to bed Saturday night w/ a case of blue Ba||s. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I've thought about your suggestion to tell her I want (and to do) whatever will make her happy. I KNOW for a FACT that in her mind, that would be for me to just give up and walk away. I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO DO THAT!Just like she refuses to do what would make me happy, like she says she wishes she could do.Wiffle- Thanks for the suggestion. The only problem I have is I don't understand how Plan A (the part that she's supposed to notice, the being nice to her, the meeting her EN) can be accomplished if essentially SHE's Plan B'ing ME. I DO understand the part of Plan A regarding ME, and I absolutely AM doing that (like I said, I HAVE quit stalking, learned that lesson). I just don't get how it's going to make her miss me if she doesn't SEE how I've changed.I DO WANT TO SEE HER! I FEEL GOOD WHEN AROUND HER! I FEEL GOOD AFTER SEEING HER! And so I would like to respond, "OK, we can just be friends so why don't ya come on over for dinner." But I don't think she'd buy that. I think she's putting it nicely, but still saying "I'm not seeing you any more, period."I feel like begging her not to do this, but I've done that and it didn't work. I know that's not attractive, but I AM desperate (and I know THAT'S not attractive either).I mean, I don't just sit around the house any more and contemplate the blank wall, I'm doing things that I enjoy, I'm doing some of the renovations that I've (barely) wanted to do for over a year. I'm enjoying the household duties (never thought I'd say that, by the way anyone want a 5 month old kitten- he's driving me even CLOSER to insanity?).I just don't know.KP.S. Lexx- Just read your reply, you crack me up!That's the second time you've reminded me that I stress you out. I KNOW! I do feel like that bunny on crack. I just have all these thoughts and feelings going on inside. I'm trying (and mainly succeeding) on keeping a calm exterior. Obviously, I let that out when I post here, but I HAVE TO get it out somewhere.Thanks for the sanity check!K[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]

Lexx-About your reply on the flowers thread (Ironic I should think about THAT today). <blockquote>quote:<hr> k -- the lone voice -- don't do it.
I think you're smothering her.She just sent you an e-mail asking for space. Give her some. <hr></blockquote>Deal is, I really HAVEN'T been smothering her. Granted the first several days post D-Day, it's all I could talk to her about. But in the last week or so (aside from my terrible LB of this past wknd), I really HAVE backed off. I haven't called her unless it was something really important (and only once at that). Quite to the contrary, SHE'S been calling ME nearly every day. Plus SHE'S the one who has wanted to talk about the realtionship all the time. Monday night's dinner was the first time we've had a real conversation about something OTHER than the A (and she's always the one bringing it up).I don't see how I'm smothering her (again aside from this weekends fiasco). I WANT to smother her, but I haven't been.I wonder if because she might have genuinely had a good time Monday if she's now a little more torn...but that would be hoping WAY too much.K

Kevco,I didn't mean for you to give up. It's way too soon to be thinking of that. but it will mean so much to her to hear you tell her that you want her happiness. We know that she is not thinking clearly right now and that her true happiness doesnot lie with the OM. But right at this point you cannot convince her of that. The only thing that you can show her is that you are the better man. That you love her more and deeper than anyone else will ever love her. And then you take a deep breath and step back.Good luck,
Debbie

As others (including me) have said, you are getting some great advice. It is wonderful you are here so early in the process. You still seem to have some misconceptions about Plan A/B based on your statements:K.."The only problem I have is I don't understand how Plan A (the part that she's supposed to notice, the being nice to her, the meeting her EN) can be accomplished if essentially SHE's Plan B'ing ME."Ok, Kev, Plan A is not about her noticing the changes you make in the next 10 minutes or from today to tomorrow. You have said she is calling you, she is intiating contact. You pull back, just a hair, and believe me she will notice. Plan B is for the BS who can no longer maintain Plan A without completely losing their love for the WS. It is saying, "I still don't want this relationship to end, but for my own health and well-being I must draw this boundary..." You are a long way from Plan B. And what your wife is doing in la-la Fogland is not Plan B. K.."I DO WANT TO SEE HER! I FEEL GOOD WHEN AROUND HER! I FEEL GOOD AFTER SEEING HER! And so I would like to respond, "OK, we can just be friends so why don't ya come on over for dinner."Why do you feel good when you see her while you know she is sleeping with another man? I would think you would feel like SH*T when you see her. But, taking you at your word, this is still a terrible idea. She has expressed she does not want to see you right now. Allow her that.K.. "Deal is, I really HAVEN'T been smothering her."If she feels like you have, then you have. If she is pulling back as much as it appears, then she is feeling smothered. Let her breathe.
K.."I wonder if because she might have genuinely had a good time Monday if she's now a little more torn...but that would be hoping WAY too much."This actually might be true. All the more reason to take it easy. Lighten up. She will see the difference. Thinking you must stay in close contact so she can see the Plan A changes is counter to the underlying foundation of Plan A. Which is to stop the co-dependent behavior of living for your spouse. Live for Kevco and she will see.Keep posting - before you act!
M

Wiff- <blockquote>quote:<hr>Ok, Kev, Plan A is not about her noticing the changes you make in the next 10 minutes or from today to tomorrow. You have said she is calling you, she is intiating contact. You pull back, just a hair, and believe me she will notice <hr></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr> Live for Kevco and she will see. <hr></blockquote>Maybe I don't fully understand the concepts of Plan A yet, that wouldn't be surprising. I'll go and re-read them on the site and in SAA. I think I understand that it's about ME, not her. But isn't the overall goal for me to make myself so attractive to her that she decides to end the A and to decide to work on the M? Again, my motivation is for ME, so that IF she does make that decision, I'll be well on my way to being a better may, however if she decides NOT to come back, I'll be well on my way to being prepared for any FUTURE relationships. Tell me if I'm wrong here.Now I have a question about your second comment quoted above. HOW? How will she see if she's ended contact? I truly don't get that part. For eg. suppose my mother (who I really haven't spoken to for 9 years, until recently) has become the best wife, mother, and friend that a person could want. But because of my choice to not speak to her hasn't allowed me to "SEE" the changes in her. I just don't follow the logic.I understand the need to say the words to reassure (especially here), but REALLY, are they JUST WORDS?I have a lot to learn.K

kevco - I just had to jump in here and comment. This is some great advice you've been given, well worth following.I'd like you to think about something in response to your earlier statement: <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by kevco-:...And so I would like to respond, "OK, we can just be friends so why don't ya come on over for dinner." ...<hr></blockquote>Just be friends? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] I don't buy it. Especially since that would be like me telling my W that I "just want to be friends" with OW. I agree with the rest, you need to back off and give her the space, nothing's going to push her farther out than if you succeed in doing what you feel like doing.

Hey Kev,I am completely in agreement with "Not Heard's" suggested response ... " Thats fine, take care." It's perfect!My view is to stick to Plan A regardless what she says about it, and using the response NotHeard suggested will facilitate you continuing Plan A. Plus, I believe any other response to her email at this time would be considered an LB. Remembering, the WS is who determines what is an LB.You did good by coming here first before responding. Stay Strong Kev!Lv,
Jop.s. And hey Kev, one last very good piece of advice based on experience from SEVERAL MBers.. I would recommend you NOT say any more about this site and your activites here to your W. Especially don't give her the URL. It will back fire on you, guaranteed. God's Speed, Kev.[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

OK, here goes: <blockquote>quote:<hr> That's fine, I respect your decision.
Take care of yourself.Kevin <hr></blockquote>Well, I've put in my 8 hours of "work," I'm going home. I'll (obviously) be on later tonight after I work out.Thank you all, without your support, I would be a TOTAL wreck.KevinP.S. Resilient, I haven't told her much about this site other than it's my support group and I'm taking some phone sessions. I've wavered back and forth about whether to give her the URL, but have decided against it, lest she use my words against me. I have given the site to her parents and sister to help them understand where we are and I've asked them to not share it with her....I believe they'll respect that because right now, they're on my "side". Thanks for the advice.K[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]

kevcoI haven't responded to your posts b4 'cuz, quite frankly, you are little bit hard to keep up with. Maybe you need a little less caffeine [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Anyway, this thread struck me 'cause of some of what your W said and some of what you have said and I think I know how you feel. I am a BS, and believe me I know when my W left I wanted to fix things and I wanted to fix them RIGHTNOW!!!!! The thing is, and it took me a while to learn this, it doesn't work like that. It doesn't work on your timetable.One of the first things I had to learn was patience...and believe me it was hard...but patience and time is what is going to help you.Right now you and your W are too close to d-day to see much of anything that makes sense. I know maybe you see this but it also goes for her, too. Even if she doesn't see it. And she probably doesn't.You aren't going to get much thru to her until the A dies...that is a sad, and unfortunate fact, and the other fact is that there isn't much you can do to hasten its end. So what do you do in the meantime? Turn your focus inward. Stay busy, work on yourself. Eat well, exercise, try to sleep right. Those are three biggies, I know, but try.In dealing with your W, don't smother her and don't try to push her. Back off. That's what my W told me when I sent cards, letters, etc, etc, etc. Right now it is too much for your W to deal with. I know you want to be with her and get back to what you had and make it better. Right now she doesn't. That does not mean she won't. She has a lot to deal with now including you and the OM and a huge amount of conflicting feelings. Her reaction to you trying to push, smother and yes, even stalk her, is to run in the other direction. I don't think that's what you want.My W said she wanted to spend time w/me but also a favorite line was that she did not want to give me "false hopes." We were at a point where I am quite sure in her mind we were done...similar to what your W thinks she is now based on her
e-mail. That doesn't mean that is where she will stay. There are no guarantees, but I know from my experience that I was very close to the same situation with my W and things changed.Work on yourself...be the best you can be...I don't know if that is plan A but it will give your W a chance to see you and your relationship differently. Consider seeing a counselor for yourself.Your W still calls you...that's good...my W did the same...she couldn't withdraw completely and we stayed in touch. The one advantage I had, and it admittedly is a big one, is that the OM lived about 1,500 miles away. None-the-less there was still this strong emotional bond that my W felt pulling her away. It was hard for me to back off when she asked me to, but ultimately I found that it was the best. She needs to breathe and so do you. This will not be solved in three weeks. Sadly, it is not likely to be solved in three months. But if you want your relationship and your W then you must resolve to be strong enough to work at it and willing to allow her the space she is looking for.My W was gone for 5 months...we have been back together for two months now, and while things aren't perfect they are getting better. For you and your W to get there you simply cannot push her or ask her to make decisions and choices now. Right now, that is what she is seeing from you. I know this hurts and I know it is hard. If it was easy anyone could do it. I apologize for this being long-winded, but in your thread and your W's word I heard a lot of what I have dealt with over the past six-seven months and I wanted to let you know that all is not lost. You must have patience and you must give it time.I hope it works for you.Best of luck E

Let me reitterate my point.As you back off, she will be curious as to why and how. SHE will initiate contact. Ask how you are doing and so on. This is YOUR time to shine. Takes some time. In my case it took a couple of months. I did it mainly out of necessity because I was going crazy (EXACTLY what you are going throug). I had no chance to plan A. I didn't even know about plan A and B, it's something that just happened naturaly. I looked back afterwards (after learning the concepts and Dobson's theory's - you should REALY check out Tough Love) and thought "Hey... the stuff really works". Think of it as plan A'ing from afar. You don't have to force your changes down her throat - curiousity will take care of that. Boy wonder will undoubtedly LB eventually. Trust me on this. Then it will be your turn. Make sure you're mentally ready or you'll blow it. When the time comes, it can be very delicate. I blew it the first time b/c I didn't know the concepts. My WS spouse turned in a major way - 360 degrees. Cut things off completely with OM and came back to me on her knees. From wanting to marry her "soul mate" to pursuing me with abandon and I do mean pursuing. I took advantage of her plan A'ing (she didn't even know she was plan A'ing) and punished her for two months and she left me again. Completely my fault. This was a year ago. We are back together again (over 6 months now) and I have made up for my transgresions in spades. Still the roller coaster ride but I'm a much better man than I was a year ago.The important part here is when she does initiate contact keep it as light as possible and SHINE.Backing off may be the hardest thing you do, but it gets easier as time progresses. It's really the only way for your own sanity.

You are asking good questions. You have pretty well described Plan A as you say:K.."I think I understand that it's about ME, not her. But isn't the overall goal for me to make myself so attractive to her that she decides to end the A and to decide to work on the M? Again, my motivation is for ME, so that IF she does make that decision, I'll be well on my way to being a better may, however if she decides NOT to come back, I'll be well on my way to being prepared for any FUTURE relationships. Tell me if I'm wrong here."You are right about all of that. Here is how she will notice:1. She hasn't cut off all contact. You have said in several posts that she will call you. You are even expecting her to call you tonight. Obviously, even if you two are headed for a divorce there is alot more to do and alot of business to take care of, so it is not like you just are never going to see or hear from her again - like she dropped off the face of the earth. Sometimes spouses wish this would happen, but it doesn't.2. Based on your performance the first 3 weeks, she is expecting you to call, grovel, beg, stalk, show up unexpectedly.... you have shown her this is how you will behave. So, when you stop all of that (and I mean really stop it!), it will certainly get her attention. She may be waiting for the other shoe to fall for a few days, but she will definately notice that you seem to be managing your life differently than you have in the past 21 days.3. Finally, and I think most importantly, when you really begin to put your focus, and I mean your ENERGY on Kev, you will feel better. You won't even believe it is happening, but it will be. And here is why - because you are in control. You will be in a position of strength. While you are waiting for your wife to do or say what you wish, you are not in control. You are at the mercy of whatever fogeese comes out of her mouth next. But, in a good Plan A that eases up some. I am not saying this comes easy. I am not saying anyone can execute it flawlessly. But, I am saying it works. It works to build you back.
Good luck,
M

Elad- thank you for that, I'll take the advice about caffeine under advisement. That brought a grin to my face, and I know you're exactly right. I know that in the last three weeks (well at least since I found THIS site), I've been a tornado of wanting to do EVERYTHING, everything to fix me, to fix my M, to fix my W, to fix the A, EVERYTHING. You see, for the last year I have quite literally wanted to do NOTHING- eat, sex, work, hobbies, talk, hold hands, go to church, NOTHING. Now that I'm on meds and the stone is off of my soul, I have so much catching up to do. I'm trying to live the last year in the next three weeks. Get it? So, YES I can see your point about me being hard to keep up with. I can't even keep up with myself half the time, I've got about 12 projects started (and nearly complete) that I've been putting off for a VERY long time! WAY too much energy and anxiety.El, Fix, & Wiff- I see and understand your points about giving it space, be mysterious, etc.... I agree that it's going to be hard, ESPECIALLY since I want to fix it HANDS ON so badly. I KNOW that won't work, it's been painfully obvious so far.I feel like I'm FINALLY turning a corner and believing in what I already know to be the only path to take. I know it's not going to be quick, or easy, or painless, or even guaranteed. I know that this CAN work (It worked w/ my girlfriend before I met WS), I just never dreamed I'd have to employ all this in my M...I thought it was guaranteed to always be there.I know that's not the case now, and I can protect against it in my next relationship (whoever that might be with).Thank you all! I don't think I would have made it through this DAY, let alone the last three weeks and the coming months without you all, literally.K

oops, dupe![ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]

Dude,You are going nuts. YOu have been given lots of good advice on the most likely way to save your marriage. Don't continue to argue with these folks, especially the female WS - they are speaking from your wife's perspective. As much as you don't want to believe their ideas, they are based in repeated human behavior.Have you considered you life without your wife? Would you die if she didn't come back? If you continue to act as if this is the case you will drive her further away.I would have you consider another course of action. Work your way out of the relationship because she is not a quality person. All you WS can slam me if you want but a quality spouse does not take off and f*** another person whilst married. Look around and see what you find attractive in other females. Get your legal stuff in order to protect yourself in case of a divorce. Work on making yourself marketable to women - work out, new clothes, hair cut, yoga, whatever.This will do two things.1. You will become happier because you will not be wasting your time hurting yourself with her actions.2. She will likely notice that you are preparing to move on and really questing her current status.Good luck.Bob

EB- I didn't realize that I WAS arguing with anyone....I'm simply trying to work it out in my own head, ask questions, seek guidance.I agree with the advice that I've been given. Nobody knows more than me how hard it'll be to follow, but I'm going to try. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Have you considered you life without your wife? Would you die if she didn't come back? If you continue to act as if this is the case you will drive her further away. <hr></blockquote>Yes, I have. It would suck for a while, but I WOULD be able to carry on (with the support of people such as yourself, and God). No, I wouldn't die. I've already been dead inside for the last year. I know how that feels (or DOESN'T feel), and I don't like it. But now that I know that I have a depressive problem, I think half the battle is won. I need to develope some NEW coping skills, and that's what I'm doing in therapy. <blockquote>quote:<hr> ...because she is not a quality person.... <hr></blockquote>I agree that the person that she is RIGHT NOW, is not a quality person, and I fault her for the multitude of choices that she made each and every time she had contact with him. But I cannot fault her for falling out of love with me, that's MY fault, and for falling IN love w/ OM (basic MB principles- he met all her EN===> she fell in love). But at her core, she IS a devout Christian, a good friend, a good listener, a good teacher, a beautiful and thoughtful person. I hope to one day see that girl of my affection again. But I have no control over that.I HAVE been working on me, but I've been getting wrapped up in her situation as well, and have been losing sleep over HER. I know that's counterproductive, unhealthy, and just plain wrong. I'm dedicating myself to the principles (and advice) found here. I've started to work out again, I've picked up some of my hobbies again (darts, home improvement, outtings w/ friends, etc...), and I'm seeking therapy to deal with the multitude of issues I have (childhood through adulthood).This is ALL going to make me a better person FOR ME. Because I don't like the man I've been in recent years...I had gotten away from some of my beliefs (truth, admiration, affection, honor, straight forwardness), and I am going to get back to them.This has definitely been a weird day, I started on a high, confident in my efforts. Then rock bottom after she suggested we not see each other, desperate and needy. And now, I feel pretty good about myself. I know I will make it, I know I'm going to be a better man (and hopefully one day, a good father) because of all of this.Thank you all and thank God for this day.Sorry to have taken up so much time/energy from you all.
K

[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] HA! HA! HA! LOL! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Ooooh, I'm cracking up over here... When I read the part where you said you were feeling like the energizer bunny on crack, I was going to say that you needed to take up running and go for a nice, long jog, dude! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Glad to hear you are taking out some of that energy at the gym--very constructive! Good for you!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
 I've started to work out again...Sorry to have taken up so much time/energy from you all.
K<hr></blockquote>NO NEED to apologize, this is what we're all here for, right?

OK, so today's another day....Got another email from WS, here it is: <blockquote>quote:<hr>
So is that all you have to say in response to my email? How were you thinking we would proceed from this point? Be specific. ALso, do you think
we can do Thanksgiving? I do. My mom and dad want us to be there, or at least me, on Wed. because they are bringing some older friends of theirs for
their daughter to pick up. I know you don't believe me, but I am sorry for your hurt and sorry the timing wasn't right for us both to try. I think ultimately that you will be a healthier happier person after all this is over. This all sucks, but we'll grow and move on, and maybe someday, we'll be friends again. I pray for you and me, my parents, and all our friends to try to understand and get through this. Sorry I've let you down. WS <hr></blockquote>What I want to say is that I want what's best for her, but I'm afraid she'll think I'm saying "I'm best for her." I want to tell her that I want whatever will make her happiest, but I'm afraid that that will give the A my stamp of approval. I want to tell her that I know she needs time to sort things out, but I'm afraid that she'll see that as me just waiting in the wings for her and OM to fail and not working on ME. I want to tell HER to be specific as to how we'll procede. I want to explain to her that I don't think she's thinking clearly right now, and that maybe she'd see things differently in a month or two, or if she completely and permanently ended the A. I know that I won't say that, and even though she says it's not about the A, she has said that she doesn't want to end it....there's no way it could NOT be about the A.While I DO feel the way that I'm afraid she'll take any of those responses (except that I'm waiting in the wings), I know that me indicating that will help any.I'm know that right now, the only thing she wants is a DV, and I'm pretty sure her request for specifics is a test to see if I'm amenable to that idea. I MOST CERTAINLY AM NOT!I believe the remorse in her words, I believe that she truly IS sorry for hurting me and letting me down and not being willing to at least TRY. But I also think I know the depth of her feelings for OM and against ME (specifically during the last 3 weeks).Any input will be welcome.Thanks all.
Kev[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]

Kevco,
I am so sorry you are going through this. It is really such a drag and rough! I don't want to minimize what is going on in your life but this is just so "TextBook". Her response, her actions, her attitudes. It really does help to be educated in all this to know and to keep your sanity. She loves you, she wants the relationship on her terms. She wants her cake and eat it too. She is testing the waters to see where you are. Your response threw her for a loop. Here is my opinion on a response (take it or leave it - only you know what is best)Apology accepted. I do not want to talk about Thanksgiving just yet - I am not sure what I'll do but I will let you know. You said "Be specific" I just want you to be happy. I am just respecting your decision to be friends "someday" but not now as you said. Kevco, Don't get sucked into talking about the future. She is waffeling back and forth. Says she wants to be your friend someday then says she wants to spend Thanksgiving with you. I wouldn't talk about Thanksgiving with her until the day before. Kevco, you have won the hearts of many here at MB and I believe you will win her heart too.Hang in there and take care of you!!!

Really the key in any future conversations and email is to be short, to the point, and positive.

Not, Um, have you SEEN any of my posts? SHORT? That'll be a challenge! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I thank you for your words of guidance. I'm composing a letter (probably my first plan B letter, but right now I'm keeping it in the context of a response. I have no intention of sending it, but just want to get my thoughts down on paper. Also, I don't want to be "specific" until after I have a chance to talk to Steve next Tuesday.I agree that nearly EVERYTHING she's saying has been said hundereds of times WORD FOR WORD. Problem is, I see it, but SHE doesn't...If only she'd understand that, maybe her words would sound as silly to her as they do to me...but I'm not going to educate her any more.Thanks! I'll probably post my letter when it's complete.K

I agree with both responses as to how to approach the second e-mail. Don't get specific yet. She wants you to say - "Ok, lets see an attorney, draw up an agreement and be divorced by Christmas..." Don't fall into that and hand her the divorce on a silver platter.I would say something like this:WS,
It is hard for me to be very specific about next steps at this point. Keep in mind that I am not where you are on the path to end our marriage. I am not sure about my plans for Thanksgiving, but I will let you know as soon as I decide what would be best for me. Talk to you soon,
KevThis way you address honestly her question about specific next steps and you are telling her you need more time, without asking that it be dragged out. She can't make you make a move. This may frustrate her, but SO WHAT?Short, kind and to the point. And upbeat. M

Kev,Wiffle has it down .... that's a great response. And don't waiver!

"WS,It is hard for me to be very specific about next steps at this point. Keep in mind that I am not where you are on the path to end our marriage. I am not sure about my plans for Thanksgiving, but I will let you know as soon as I decide what would be best for me. Talk to you soon,
Kev" 
Love,
Jo

I like Wiffle's response. Maybe even add "be patient with me"This will bide more time for the fog to lift or at least until your counseling session.

"WS,
It is hard for me to be very specific about next steps at this point. Keep in mind that I am not where you are on the path to end our marriage. I am not sure about my plans for Thanksgiving, but I will let you know as soon as I decide what would be best for me. Talk to you soon,
Kev" Kev,
This is sooo good! Go with this! Don't you see?
She's trying to manipulate the situation, stay in control, and doesn't like it that you've pulled away and seem to NOT get sucked into her game. Asking if that's all you have to say...is telling. It tells ME that she wanted MORE from you....something she could "hang her hat on..." know what you were thinking, or going to do next.I definitely would not give her specifics at this point. Be vague, unavailable, whatever it takes to keep her at arms' length.So she wants a div. BUT wants to do Thanksgiving at her FOLKS?!?!?! Did I miss something??? What's the matter with her *new* *boyfriend*? Something's rotten here.Her parents obviously aren't OK with it, as it states in her letter, "I pray for you and me, my parents, and all our friends to try to understand and get through this."
This tells me, too, that she wants to put on a "front" for them. NO!! Don't do it!!! Let her have to live with the consequences of this decision...it'll help lift the fog if she has to sit at Thanksgiving table with her parents all upset with her over this. But don't tell her that, now!
<blockquote>quote:<hr>What I want to say is that I want what's best for her, but I'm afraid she'll think I'm saying "I'm best for her."<hr></blockquote>
Doesn't matter what she'll think. Say it anyway (IF you get the chance, or in E-mail). Let her think anything at all. It'll be in her head, and will "rattle around in there" and eventually come up, when she's ready to make REAL decisions. I did it to my WH. Told him I want what will make him happy.....wanted to GAG, but did it anyway. That IS true love, isn't it? It's really true, just that WE want US to be what's best for them... <blockquote>quote:<hr> I want to tell her that I want whatever will make her happiest, but I'm afraid that that will give the A my stamp of approval.<hr></blockquote>
She may think that for now, but when the A is on its dying throes, she'll think back to you saying this to her, and consider YOU as what will make her happiest.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>I want to tell her that I know she needs time to sort things out, but I'm afraid that she'll see that as me just waiting in the wings for her and OM to fail<hr></blockquote>
YOU ARE!!! It doesn't matter what she thinks about that.....read others' posts here (returning WS's) who comment to their BS's how HAPPY and THANKFUL they are that they NEVER "gave up" on them while they were in the fog.
<blockquote>quote:<hr> I want to tell HER to be specific as to how we'll proceed. I want to explain to her that I don't think she's thinking clearly...<hr></blockquote>
Not gonna happen...she doesn't WANT to think clearly, OR she thinks she IS and won't want to hear YOU tell her she's NOT! She thinks she knows what she wants, BUT may be experiencing guilt and doesn't want to be the "bad guy" so if YOU make all these final decisions, it can all be blamed on YOU. Don't fall for it! I hope this isn't all too much to digest, but this is what jumped out at me from what you posted, and other stuff I've learned through these months during my WAIT for my WH to get out of the fog (still there!).God Bless,
Lupo

Lupo,I think that that response is very near what I'm going to reply with. I said it the other night after she had left...less is more, but that's so incredibly hard for me. But I WILL do it.I have no intentions of giving her any specifics, because she doesn't want to hear what MY specifics are and she'll only see them as LB. I'd much rather her try to figure them out for herself.Just FYI, Thanksgiving is going to be at our (my) house. We had already planned it prior to D-Day, and afterwards, I still wanted to have it here.Her parents are MOST DEFINITELY against the A and OM. Her mom flat out told them that he would NOT be welcome in their house, EVER. Now, her dad is a little more forgiving, and would probably give in eventually, but maybe not.You're probably right about the things I WANT to say to her. Maybe I'll work them into a message (just not this one). I'll keep them short and simple without my usual explanations and all. Just let her take them as they are and wonder.I agree that,
<blockquote>quote:<hr> she doesn't WANT to think clearly, OR she thinks she IS... <hr></blockquote>I have no intention of telling her that (again).Thanks, I'm about ready to send the email.Kev[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]

WoW!How did I miss the part where your W's OB (other boy) is "19 Years old"???Kev,I'm not discriminating against the age difference at all (11 years), I just believe that a 19 year old, regardless of how mature he appears, is so wet behind the ears and doesn't have the life experiences it would require to sustain a mature lasting relationship. The advice you've been given has been very good, follow it and you'll make it thru this.Lv,
Jo[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

I'm sorry, but I'm just going to hop in and throw my two cents into the pile. Just in case an opinion from a WS would help. First of all kev, you and WS need to cease the mind games. That means the bs (and I don't mean betrayed spouse) emails and other exchanges, especially the stalking. WS or 19yr old might end up getting a restraining order, making your life dramatically different.You can't kill the affair, so don't waste your time trying to inflict another case of blue balls on the 19yr old. Harley promotes the concept that the A will ultimately die a natural death. I don't think any BS's efforts to exert undue influence are going to help the process. Wouldn't that be contrary to "a natural death"???Understandably, it seems as if kev would like that to happen very soon. The centiment that I am getting from this and other threads posted by kev is that he's trying to speed up the process to suit his own needs, desires, and goals. As a seasoned WS, I can say this approach would only push me farther away. Kev, I see no kids in your mix, so backing off and giving her some space; even forcing her to take it would seem the best thing to do. Let the A run its course and it'll eventually die. Remember, you cannot force it to die, but you sure can prolong its duration.
That's my take.

Kevco, I'm partial to the "that's fine, Take care" response. It'll leave her wondering for a change. May not help but it certainly can't hurt.Regarding the "false hope" thing... That is my personal favorite! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] That's been a standard in my home. Take it all with a grain of salt. It's tough but it can be done. Sounds like you need to do the same thing I've had to do. BACK OFF!! It's hard man, this I know! Give her some space and let her discover what she will. You need to really internalize that you have zero control over her actions. I'm still struggling with that. I would also highly recommend leaving her alone. What do you gain from knowing the intimate details of the A? Is there really anything new to learn? At this juncture really all you're doing is hurting yourself. I've had a tough time with this one too [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Just another dip in the ride man, step back and take a break! You need time to recharge your batteries as well for round 2. I wish you all the best!Take care,
Paul

BH and SF2G,DONE!Thanks BH for giving you input. Another perspective from the WS is ALWAYS welcome...I think that a couple have replied with similar sentiments. And yeah, I can take not knowing FAR more than knowing and seeing what they're doing (found that out the hard way). Though, I feel that I DO know what they're doing and when because as I've said in a couple of posts, I REALLY believe that I'm in tune with WS (I haven't been wrong yet...at least since I got on the meds and I can actually think a little clearly and I can FEEL again).I know the odds against the A working are EXTREMELY high, but remember (or not if you missed it), my mother has been with/married to OM for 9 years, and so I'm PARTICULARLY sensitive to that possibility....PLUS, this "kid" is an awefully lot like the ME that WS originally fell in love with, though I MUST say I was MUCH BETTER. Plus, she's been awefully willing to accept MY faults to date, though she says she's no longer going to do that for anybody....I wonder.I hear you (and everyone) when you're saying that I can't force the A to end. That sucks! But I know it's true, I know I've ALREADY driven her closer to him- I just hope not TOO close. You're right, I'm trying to speed the recovery process just as much as she's trying to speed the DV process, wouldn't it be nice if we could meet in the middle? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I'm done with rushing it, I'm now in it for the long haul, and I know it's going to hurt and be difficult, but I see that it's my only shot.OH, btw, she called this evening hoping to come over and use the propane torch on her baskets. UM, she HAS a key, why do you suppose she needs to ask my permission? HMMM I just don't get her.Thank you all,
Kev[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]

Good for you Kev. Stick with it.Also, if you two are separated, I believe she would need your consent to come into the house, regardless whether or not she has a key. Otherwise, she could be accused of trespassing. If she's seen an attorney, chances are she's been apprised of that. Don't try to read anything else into it. Just stay focused on you.Hang in there and keep the right attitude. Trust me, she'll see the light eventually and when she does, you want to be there with your head on straight and no regrets when the fog lifts.

This is a good thread....I, too, like the energizer bunny on crack could not stop my mind from fixing. I did not act on my obsessions but my mind was driving me crazy. Thanks all for reinforcing the long haul concept. Nothing this broken can get fixed so quickly.Kevco, funny that your WS is constantly keeping in contact with you. Let her as long as you can stand it and keep your cool and use it to Plan A. Let her come to you then practice your Plan A stuff. All my Plan Aing was done for 4 months while watching the A going on. My WS would not leave so trying to convince him that I could not handle his love for someone else in my face constantly was the challenge of a lifetime. My WS was so unsure of what he wanted and it seems your WS, by contacting you so much, is not sure either. How could she possibly be sure and content with this deceptive, secret involvement. Space will help her begin to see what she really wants and let the OP LB for awhile. Just keep thinking of the little boy messing up and WS finding out what he is really like. He has faults---and so does she that they are not seeing yet. I love the concept of Plan A cause it keeps the process going for life with or without the WS. That is so healthy cause none of us can determine the outcome of any of this. Chill and hang in there....there is life beyond D-day.TW

bumped

Kevco,
I've been reading this thread, and I think I am interpretting her contact with you differently. She's calling you, emailing you, asking for more of a response from you, wanting to spend Thanksgiving together... You know, the opposite of love is not hate; it's indifference - and she's not exhibiting either one. I, too, am the BS and the last thing I would want to do is build false hope, but I don't think she's as sure about how she wants to proceed as she's claiming to be. Yes, you need to Plan A right now, but Plan A doesn't include appearing tooo needy and desperate (you're right, it's not attractive). Plan A, work on yourself, don't LB, and become mysterious! Don't always be there when you normally would be, don't always answer her calls (hard, I know), wear things she's never seen you wear, get involved in something she knows nothing about, go places you wouldn't normally go...Believe me, she'll know. She is definitely not indifferent. I am willing to bet that she knows far more about what's going on with you right now than you think, and the more mysterious you become, the more intrigued she'll be. I think it will affect her more than you know if she has reason to think that you may be building a life separate from her. First and foremost, of course, you have to take care of yourself, so let the changes be those that are positive for you anyway. Good luck!AB

First of all...>>>>>>THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT IN THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<<<<<Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to say that everything is fixed, or that we're ready for recovery, or even that there's anything beyond this minute....but I just received my first waffle (the blueberry topped one, not the sour-dough one)!WS is sick today and she went to the DR. Afterward, she stopped by our house after the DR. to check her email. She called me a little later, and for the FIRST time, I could hear the pain and remorse in her voice. She said she'd walked around the house (which is spotless! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ), and it was hard for her to think that she'd be giving all that up, all the memories.She tried to explain that she didn't want to NOT have dinner because she hates me, but rather "I don't want to give you false hope." Yadda yadda.I told her that I realize that there's no easy and quick way out of this, no matter what she decides. And that if I had false hopes, then that is MY problem. She said it's just the mommy in her that wants to make everything better, I told her that I don't WANT her to be my mommy any more, that's one of the things that I'm working on.I explained my feelings about severing all contact (not like we had, but if we would). I explained that without ANY contact, she wouldn't be able to see how I was changing, that I know and respect that she doesn't trust that the changes that I've talked about would be real. I told her that I don't blame her for falling out of love with me, and I'm not asking (nor have I ever) for her to just "turn it back on." I told her I know that's not possible. I explained that >>>I<<< would divorce the man that I've been in the last year (and more). My only hope is to continue SOME contact, so that SHE can rebuild some trust in ME. I took full responsibility for my "reactions" over the last several weeks and explained that I think I'm finally beginning to be able to control them.I told her that ALL I want is for both of us to be happy, and what's best for both of us. I conceded that right now, my view of what that is and hers are COMPLETELY different, and I can accept that for now.She said that it's not that she doesn't want to be friends, even though "everyone" is telling her that it's not possible to be friends and DV (probably right there, at least initially). But that she doesn't believe that and she really does want to remain friendly.I did everything to not LB, and I think I succeeded. I even think she had tears (though with her cold, it might have been a little hard to tell).You people have been my savior in the last several days (and weeks). I thank you all for FINALLY helping to make me see the path, even though it's still going to be hard to see and follow at times.I'd have never seen this lunch hour if not for you folks. God bless you!Love,
Kev[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ][ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]