Update- nice dinner/talk tonight - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

Well, we had our weekly dinner tonight (even though they were suspended after last week). WS asked that I think about a couple of things beforehand so we could talk about them - WHY I felt the need to be away all the time prior to my EA, and WHY I didn't lift a finger domestically in the last year, but also to some extent before that.Dinner was nice- we didn't talk about anything too serious. Then we came back to the house and began to cover her topics. I asked her what it would "greatly help her" with. She said to ensure she doesn't do the things in the future that may have caused my actions (hopefully not intending w/ OM), and maybe to help her feel better about me.I explained the whole situation four years ago, the needs that I wasn't having met, the new job and friends, the resentment I felt when she tried to curb my activities....my sharing our problems with an OW, and eventually falling into an EA. I explained how I have taken her for granted in the years since, how I closed lines of communication because of the guilt I had over EA, how I WANTED to tell her about it, but was afraid. I felt certain of her love and thought she'd just get over being mad about all the little things and we'd still be there for each other. I told her that I don't WANT for us to "slip back into our life," as she had suggested it'd be easy for her to do. I explained that I don't like the man I've been over the last four years and I won't allow us/me to slip back into that life....now, maybe the material things, the house, the memories, stuff like that, but not the attitudes and treatment of each other.She understands that it'd be SO MUCH easier to just come home and get on with the M, but that she doesn't FEEL anything. She said she looks at pictures and TRIES to feel something, to miss me, and doesn't. I told her I understand that and that it took us 4 years to get HERE, it's not going to just change over night. She said she's trying to just "wake up" and love me, but can't. I agreed that it's not going to work like that.I explained that at first I was insensed that SHE didn't trust ME....but after getting kicked around here for a while, I understood what must be going through her mind.... Kevin's just window dressing so that I'll come home and expose myself to him (NOT IN THAT WAY [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )and then he'll just fall back into his old habits and where'll we be. I agreed that that's a valid fear, but that I too understand that and know that if all I was doing was changing for HER, we'd only be worse off in another 6 months, and that's definitely not what I want. I told her that I understand the resentment that she holds against me for beginning to do things AFTER she moved out, but I explained that I'm trying to learn some new habits because that's the man I want to be, not the lazy sloth I've been for at least the last year.She cried when she was talking about how she doesn't feel like she loves me, but she followed it up by telling me that she DOES care about me, just not in a wifey way. I told her I understand.She's sad that more of her family knows the whole story now (her mom told her aunt and probably a couple of other cousins). She knows that it's HER fault for making the choice to have the A, but I took blame for my part in facilitating it, and shutting her out, and not meeting her EN- forcing her elsewhere. She's afraid that if we DO DV, then the OM (or whoever else) won't be accepted by her family. I can't say that that makes me particularly sad, but I DO empathize with her. I actually (and this sounds REALLY stupid) like and respect the OM (other boy, actually). He's intelligent, thinks he knows what he wants out of life (besides my wife), and is working towards those goals. WS said that she'd ALWAYS wondered what life could be w/ OM, but I wonder if some of that isn't revisionist. She did tell me that she'd written in his yearbook (when he was in 8th grade 5 years ago) that if she was ever available, she'd marry him and they could "burn the house down" with their debates. That kind of hurts, but then again, I think I was probably beginning to fail to meet some of her EN even then. Even with that said, if I'd done ANY kind of a job over the last several years, I really don't believe she'd have ACTED on her wonderings. SURE, don't we ALL wonder sometimes what it'd be like with some OP (usually when our own M gets a little stale or rocky)?Anyway, Steve asked me yesterday to ask her if he could speak with her. She actually agreed, I'm going to email her the reservation phone number tonight so she can set it up....YEA!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] He was more than a little miffed at what our other two therapists had told her (after two and one meeting) what they thought about her feelings on the state of the M (specifically that "YUP, she's been done w/ the M for a long time"---WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT!!!!?! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] )And to cap it all off, she let me hug her before she left.....I could get lost and live in those arms. That felt SOOOOOOOOOO good!!!! it's the first time I've hugged her since Oct 12. But, I kept it short.Baby steps!
Kev

KevcoI feel you are making some progress. Baby steps are better than no steps at all.Stay strong and keep Plan Aing.
SLH

Kevin,that sounds like you had a nice time..took responsibility for your actions put her's on her like it should be.. And yes, encouraging that she's willing to talk to Steve about counseling..If I dare make a suggestion here...when your apologing for things that you've done in the past to hurt her..be specific about what those
things were..not just the "I'm sorry I hurt you"
that way she will know that you really understand what it was you did that hurt her..and that you are truly sorry. the generic "I'm sorry" is just so vague it makes someone wonder if the person saying it really understands what they did to hurt you..and if they really have changed and won't do it again..or if they are just trying to get you back and not fully understand what happened..so that things don't change..

TR,Exactly, I am very specific about what I'm apologizing for. I think I'm pretty complete as well. I can tell that some of the things I'm saying are EXACTLY what she's thinking.Likewise when I was describing some of the needs that I wasn't having met four years ago....For instance, I told her that because we weren't being affectionate and SF was a zero, I began to doubt myself- whether I was even attractive at all to women....I even recall asking the (eventaully) OW, what was wrong with me, was I not good or good looking enough to warrent affection from my W. I told WS that it felt SO GOOD when the OW responded positively, and I suggested that WS probably knew EXACTLY what I was talking about, and she agreed (quite vigorously- that's where SHE's been over the last year).Thanks,
K

kevco,good for you - that sounds like you're establishing a base camp, something to build from. It's also very good news that she's agreed to talk to steve - keep us updated on the outcome.I wouldn't pay much attention to the 'I don't love you' business, that's pretty much due to the confusion created by the fog. If she loved you in the past, she can love you again - you just have to give her enough of the right reasons [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] take care,- Freddy

Yes, I agree that is great that you guys are going to get counsel from Steve Harley. That's so cool!

Kevco,
Have to run to work, but wanted to say, hey!
Hang in there & i'll check back later.
HH

Kev,
I amvery ompressed with ohow you express yourself. You seem to hve an excellant grip on the issues!
You at least know a little of my story. I think my W needs lots of help & I do obcess about it, when I should focus more on me & I had been doing better until this calling card thing. WHich by the way because of her & I's discussions, she has come to grips more with the vomitting & shopping and made an appointment with her Counselor & she is there now, as we speak. Pray that she has the courage to be open & honest with him!
I too will readilty admitt I contributed heavily to the lack of a good marital relationship, but in all honesty (this may be like my WW, here), what your W did or is doing is out there a little bit & i AM EXTREMELY GLAD SHE AGREED TO CONSELING. I want to say, we both deserve to take some of the blame here, but it is her (my WW), that made ultimate choice to engage in PA -- they ultimatley have to accept some responsibility. I'm saying don't be too hard on yourself!
Like someone else said, please do not believe the I don't love you part, but care totally -- my W said similar things & I have read countless accounts of similar lines from WS. I believe it helps them rationaize their actions -- de-emphasizes the immorality of it to a degree.
You have a good opportunity to re-build something & I know the feeling of the hug! Sometimes we seem like gluttens I know.
It sounds to me that she is fogged in big time. Trying hard to justify & rationalize her own feelings & actions. I find it hard to believe that she could have a meaningful, mature love for a 19 year old. Just my instincts -maybe all wrong. I can understand a lusting, physical attraction thing,but it sounds like she is planning a long term relationship thing?!
I may be getting way weird here, but how is this guy going to really fullfill the domestic thing & be a contributor to the family budget & is he going to school at the same time?!
Is your WW going to take care of him, financially & emotionally?
Understand, I'm not one to talk, my WW carried on with two guys that could come close at least, to age of her son -- this happens all the time I know; It just is hard to come to grips with at times.-- You seem to be coping well & I congratulate you on that!
We have our issues don't we!! It is a jungle out there!
I hope & pray you find peace --
Best of luck!
HH

Kevco, Great job!! It sounds like you're starting to get yourself and your emotions under control! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I feel a kinship with you, our situations are so very similar and I have some of the same "self control" issues you've talked about. It seems as if the similarities just keep piling up. Just wanted to say congrats on the baby steps and wish you well.take care

ALL, Thanks for your warm wishes and advice through all of this...NO WAY I'd be where I am today without you people.I understand about the ignore the no love commentsf or now. Actually, I'm not really all that hung up on that, I know that she has SOME feelings towards me (whether or not it's considered LOVE depends solely upon one's definition of love), and that's enough for now. I'm willing to wait (at least for now).HH-
<blockquote>quote:<hr>It sounds to me that she is fogged in big time. Trying hard to justify & rationalize her own feelings & actions. I find it hard to believe that she could have a meaningful, mature love for a 19 year old. Just my instincts -maybe all wrong. I can understand a lusting, physical attraction thing,but it sounds like she is planning a long term relationship thing?!
I may be getting way weird here, but how is this guy going to really fullfill the domestic thing & be a contributor to the family budget & is he going to school at the same time?! Is your WW going to take care of him, financially & emotionally? <hr></blockquote>To answer a couple of these comments, I agree that she's trying desperately to come to grips/rationalize/justify the feelings and reasons that she chose to engage in the PA. I know that it's bothering her terribly. I imagine she's having doubts about herself, her Christianity, whether or not she's a good person. When I told her last night that I've forgiven her for everything (one little piece at a time), she asked how I could do that when the A isn't over. She said that I must be a better person than she, I disagreed respectfully, saying that the opposite is probably more true.I know that the two of them have had a connection for a long time, they've been friends, and it just grew into something more. I trusted her blindly, and took our M for granted thinking I didn't have to do anything more in order to keep it going....boy was I wrong.About the "weird" part in your quote....it's not weird at all. I've though many of the same things, especially the things that she's held resentment against ME for (i.e. domestic support), I mean, this guy's a pig. But he IS intelligent, is an electrician apprentice, and will probably make a decent living in a few years. I believe that emotionally, he's going to be a burden on her. Sure it's all roses now, but I know that the last two girlfriends he's had left him because of his "neediness." Just a matter of time there, I believe. He's fighting the good fight now, saying that if she wants to try to make the M work, he'll bow out (how noble of him), and won't contact her....I wonder how true that'll be [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] . In the mean time, I gotta find ME. Had a good session w/ IC over lunch. Now I just need to wait for WS appt. with Steve and then he wants to talk to me again.Thanks again all!Kev

Kev--That is wonderful that you are specific in your apologizes..I think that goes a long way in helping heal the marriage..It shows that you have taken the time to really think about what's gone wrong in your marriage..
and your part in that..Not blaming the OM for it..but realizing that the Affair is just a symptom of the deeper problems you two have had..and that shows real maturity..

Kev,
Like I said before, you seem to have a good head about all this -- you express ourself extremely well!
I am having some duzzy concerns and or delima myself & don't know all the answers. One thing I find myself recommending a lot & I could use a refresher on is the book by James Dobson, "Tough Love" by some of your apparent attitudes and such, perhaps you've read this -- If not, I would highly recommend this -- it's Kind of a mix of Plan A & plan B kind of thing. An important part of the book are some strategies to win our S's back, emotionally (even though mine is at home with me & we have lots of sex, I don't know if I have her emotionally). It is important he says to not let your spouse know you are reading the book. We deserve some secrets too you know!
Best of luck to ya!
HH
another tought --
From where I am sitting,(which may not be anywhere close to you!) I would not give your W's OM much credit for being honorable -- He is definatley a foemidable opponent for you in competition for your W, but I would think of him more as a snake in the grass! I'm sure you are every bit the man he is & if I were you I would try real hard to not allow him much credit as being a cool guy or anything like that.
You know we don't live in a barbaric state, but do I recall correctly someone else congratulating you for keeping your emotions in tact (or something like that)? Did you pound this guys lights out or something? Cause a part of me is saying I would not blame you if you did! I know that is a terrible thought, & although I have had those thoughts, I would probablly not ultimatley do that, but I also know that even if I got my butt kicked, it would feel sooo good! -- but in my book, I would not be too concerned if you've had those thoughts!
Peace be with you,
HH

HH,Yeah, the honorable comment was PURE SARCASM! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I do consider him a snake, even though I have liked and respected him in the past.As far as the emotions go, I think you referenced a comment someone made about my actions a week ago or so. I had had a "feeling" and went by his house, I laid next to his window and heard them talking and ultimately getting ready for a romp. At that point, I called his cell and told him to put her on the phone. I asked her if she knew how much what she was about to do was hurting me....eventually, she came upstairs and I went inside and we (she and I) had words.No, I've never touched him, but I HAVE had some awefully creative fantasies about making him disappear and have presented some pretty thinly veiled threats to him. I realize that any action I would take against him would not only be wrong, but would do more harm to the M than good....it'd just drive her closer to him. And so I haven't entertained any of those thoughts.Thanks for your posts.
Kev

Hey Kevco,
I'm glad that your're making some progress with your WW, but I feel the need to jump in here and bring up something that alarms me.In keeping up with your story via your posts/replies, I knew you were dealing with a much-younger OM, but I didn't realize your wife was actually his TEACHER at one time?? Am I understanding this correctly???You commented about what your W wrote in this guy's 8th GRADE YEARBOOK, for crying out loud, about "if she's available, she'd marry him" in the future. Does anybody besides me find this wildly inappropriate behavior from someone who is a teacher/role model for young STUDENTS???This brings to mind that widely publicized story a couple years ago about the attractive 30-something teacher who carried on an affair with her middle-school aged student...(wish I could remember her name!!) and she actually wound up having, I think, TWO children by him???!! I know she spent time in jail and her husband and three or four other children were just devastated. She was all over the cover of all the major magazines, I'm sure you know who I mean.Anyway, this is probably an issue that should be addressed in counseling. Why would your W begin such an inappropriate relationship with a former STUDENT???I have not seen you mention anything about being concerned over this issue, and was wondering if you've given it any thought?Calla

Calla,Uh, yeah...kinda freaky. I think the woman's name out in Oregon is Susan something. Yeah, she has like 3-4 kids with her H, and then had at least 2 with the kid....Of course I've thought about that, and it kinda weirds me out. Actually, I truly think that the yearbook thing was brought up in jest originally. I'm pretty sure that even back then, I wasn't meeting some of her EN, because that's the timeframe (or shortly after) my EA. I know we were having problems back then, and I'm pretty sure she was confiding in him (if for no other reason than he and I are generally so much alike). This of course (as we all know her in MB) put her at risk for having her EN met by him, and ultimately falling in love w/ him.Now, she could be exaggerating the comments in the yearbook in order to make ME choose to not try to save the M, leaving her not being the total bad guy. Kind of a revisionist thing. I don't know, and frankly, I don't care. Even if she really did write those things (and all the subsequent, specific, and similar conversations that I know they've had), I really think it's all a product of the failure to meet her EN.At her core, I KNOW she's a good person, she's a Christian, and she was apalled at the actions of that woman in Oregon. I agree that at some point, she should look introspectively and see WHY she allowed the A to happen, and especially WHY WITH A STUDENT (even if he is a FORMER student). I know she's been concerned that she might have violated her morality clause in her contract, and she's asked her NEA rep about it. While it probably DOES violate the morality clause, it's extremely doubtful that the district would persue it unless he was a CURRENT student.But for sure, I've considered these issues and think that at some point, they'll have to be addressed, but neither of us are in a position to do that just yet.Good catch, though. Maybe I'll give it a little more thought and try to figure out just how I feel about that.Kev

I'd caught the "former Student" statement as well and wasn't quite sure how to broach it..I also remember the news story about the teacher/student relationship in Oregon...but I think that started while he was still a student..
But the thing I guess that got to me most concerning that was the ages..and one was still a child..in my book thats "sexual abuse" by the woman to the boy..a trusted adult took advantage sexually of a child. Plain and simple..And apparently from what was said even if it was
in jest..it was planted in this young mans head when he was in Jr. High school..so he was what 12/13 maybe 14 yrs old..having been on the recieving end of sexual abuse..this breach of trust does some big time damage to the internal emotions..and I am actually scared for your wife..
yes he says he will "back off" if she wishes to work on her marriage..but he's still a child..
how do you or she know if he is emotionally prepared for the end of their affair?? He may have an obession w/ her thats been on going since Jr. High..especially if she led him to believe that "if she's single"He may well be emotionally devasted if she tries to end the affair..and yes, he appears sane at this time..but heck all of the BS's and WS's have appeared sane and yet are doing things completely out of character..ie: following the spouse, spying on their every action..from cell phone calls..to whatever..which I don't believe they would do under normal circumstances..just as the WS's have been acting out of character..If he begins to feel threatened he may change his tune..and start making threats. Especially if he's felt this way about her for that many years..I think the chances of this would possibly be greater if the OP is single..and not married, because they also have a great deal to lose once they realize the Affair is over..but hey married OP could be just as obsessive..Controllers are master manipulators, and they can make someone feel pretty special to get what they want..and any threat to losing that object of their obsession can be deadly...remember the movie
"Fatal Attraction??"Just something to think about...[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]

TR-I know it probably sounds a little far out, but I'd actually welcome a little controling behavior from the OP. Not necessarily because I'd like to get into a physical confrontation with him (though that possibility isn't totally offensive to me, but I know that those types of situations can QUICKLY get out of hand), but rather that it might show her some of HIS darker side (much like she saw mine in the first couple of weeks post D-Day).It would be refreshing to see the shoe on the other foot, plus if it gets to that point, it means SHE'S actually rejecting HIM instead of ME.But this discussion has raised some good points that I'm going to have to deal with. Kind of makes salvaging the M a little less attractive to me right now...but then again, there've been plenty of those issues over the last several weeks, and I've been able to forgive each in turn. This one's definitely a toughy though.
AH, lovely, I just had a revelation. Don't know where it came from. I had asked WS if she'd like to maybe spend the night her Saturday night, and we'd get up at about 2am to go watch the meteor storm Sunday morning. She said she'd have to think about it because she was going to go dancing with the girls Sat. night....But I don't think that's quite right.You see, OM (maybe ex-) best friend's 21st birthday is Sunday. >>>>Get this, this best friend started dating OM ex-girlfriend and they had a HUGE falling out because OM considered it wrong that best friend should sleep with his ex- MAN, will the irony never cease!<<< Anyway, I now think that they're (WS and OM) probably going to go out with best friend and have drinks at midnight.What to do? I guess I'll just sit on it and wait to hear what she says about Sunday morning. I suppose I could ask her to wish him a happy birthday if she declines the offer (just to let her know that I KNOW- MAN, I'm getting tired of the mind games).Ok, that's all for now.
Kev

KEV-I know it probably sounds a little far out, but I'd actually welcome a little controling behavior from the OP. Not necessarily because I'd like to get into a physical confrontation with him (though that possibility isn't totally offensive to me, but I know that those types of situations can QUICKLY get out of hand), but rather that it might show her some of HIS darker side (much like she saw mine in the first couple of weeks post D-Day).TR- No it doesn't, you just want it over..
KEV-I had asked WS if she'd like to maybe spend the night her Saturday night, and we'd get up at about 2am to go watch the meteor storm Sunday morning. She said she'd have to think about it because she was going to go dancing with the girls Sat. night....But I don't think that's quite right.TR- And it may be she's just going out w/ girlfriends..and not out w/ OMKev-You see, OM (maybe ex-) best friend's 21st birthday is Sunday.Get this, this best friend started dating OM ex-girlfriend and they had a HUGE falling out because OM considered it wrong that best friend should sleep with his ex- MAN, will the irony never cease! TR- But it's different..your not 'His' ex..Kev-Anyway, I now think that they're (WS and OM) probably going to go out with best friend and have drinks at midnight.TR- Don't assume anything..remember the saying to assume makes an "[censored]" of "u" and "me", I know this is hard because of the betrayal..but try and give her the benefit of the doubt until you know for sure.Kev-What to do? I guess I'll just sit on it and wait to hear what she says about Sunday morning. I suppose I could ask her to wish him a happy birthday if she declines the offer (just to let her know that I KNOW- MAN, I'm getting tired of the mind games).TR- Did you give her a time frame on which to get back to you about the weekend? If not, you need to..let her know that you need to know so that if she's not going to be there then you can make other plans..(even if you don't..that would leave her to do as you are doing..assume you are doing something other than sitting home alone)and it gives you control of your life..it makes her responsible for giving you an answer in a timely manner, so that if you want to make other plans you can..and if you don't want to..then it's your choice..and your not giving her control of your going on with your life..It's taken me years to learn this life lesson..so maybe by my sharing something I've been through
you will learn from it..and not have to suffer.. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ex: My stbxh was gone all the time..with his job..
here one weekend a month..and gone the rest of the time..my (7 yr old) daughter wanted to be baptisted..and had rescheduled it three times trying to fit it in to when her dad would be here he called all three times and said he wouldn't be here..so I asked her if she wanted to reschedule it again..she said. "No, Mom, I don't..if I keep waiting on dad to be here I'll NEVER be baptisted" (this was the 2x4 I needed against my head..in so many things)my oldest d wanted to play basketball..I'd kept putting it off because stbxh would get angry at me when I even mentioned it because "he" wasn't here to be a part of it, and the only reason I'd want to get them involved in these things was so that I could meet someone else..so she didn't play..my other d wanted to take dance..and he responded the same way..(he responded the same way to my working and going to school, I just wanted to be single if I did ANYTHING, that he wasn't a part of)it's taken me a long time to realize those are his feelings..and I am not responsible for them..he has them because he has them..I didn't cause them..I don't control them..but, doing things to better my life and allowing my children to do things is okay..and if he's angry because we are doing something w/out him..well thats his fault because he's choosen to stay away and NOT be here to do them with us..if it were that important to him to be here and be apart of these things, then he would find another job that required no travel..(which I'd asked him to do)and be here..I've had to accept the fact that I didn't make him take that job..he took it on his own..without discussing it w/ me..it's not my fault he took that job..I didn't do anything to make him take it..and I had to learn not to take on the blame and guilt for his being gone..and learn to let him be responsible for his choice to be gone..and if he misses out on things we do..oh well..thats his own damn fault..but, I am tired of not living my life..and had to take control of that, and quit giving him so much control of what I did or didn't do while he was gone..just like my affair..it was my choice..I was responsible for my actions..not him..he choose to be away for 9 years..I choose to spend time w/ someone else..I ended the affair, confessed it..and asked him three more times within an 8 month time frame..to please find another job and be here..he chose not to do that..and chose to move out..(he still says I kicked him out, and blames OM for our marriage ending) because he refuses to face the fact that he made the choice to move out..he refuses to take the responsiblility for his choices..and continues to place the blame where it doesn't belong..just as I had done..for years on not getting my kids involved in activities..I took on his guilt..for not being here..so we all suffered..when I quit doing that..life became fun and more enjoyable for me and the kids..they started doing things they enjoyed, and I feel I have more control over my own life..he continues to be angry that he's not apart of it all..which is his choice..So take responsbility for yourself..and continue to do the things you enjoy doing and don't not do them because she's not there to do them with you..

TR,Thanks for the sage advice (as usual). You're right, she MIGHT be just going out with the girls. That'd be easy enough to verify, but I'm not going to, I've had enought of THAT, and besides, what can I do if my suspicions are right??? NOTHING! (well, nothing good anyway). I just find it awefully coinky dinky that she wrote his B-Day on the kitchen calendar, and now she's got something already planned for that night. I also have suspicions that she's used the "night out with the girls" lie before on me (before I lost my blind trust). Nothing to do but drop it and wait for the A to DIE (IF....WHEN....)!Funny you should say that about assumptions, that's one of my mantras! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote>quote:<hr>So take responsbility for yourself..and continue to do the things you enjoy doing and don't not do them because she's not there to do them with you.. <hr></blockquote>So true, thank you.
Kev

Kev,
I have been giving your situation lots of thoughs, frankly some haunting thought have occured to me & I hope I don't step out of bounds here, but I feel I need to express some thoughts that I hope will help.
My Friend, I too noticed the Jr. High thing & was not sure how to broach the subject – I am sometimes over reactionary & paranoid about these kinds of things. With what I have been presented with in my situation, I have done a lot of reading & posting here with lots of feedback about sexual acting out.I honestly think most people would be reminded of that story about the lady from Oregon when learning of your situation. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] When I was venting this summer about my story & my WS was going on a mission trip as a chaperon for High Schooler’s a few people posted to me about a big concern they saw with a potential of a condition most people tend to not believe or ignore as a serious consideration for a female in particular – brace your self: “Sexual Addiction” – Believe me it is real!
Unfortunately, I don’t see or hear from those people on this board anymore. I was reminded that teenage boys do not see anything wrong with pursuing an adult women! Let’s face it, it can easily be a fantasy for lots of teenage boys -- luckily most boys don’t have the courage or are not presented with situation to be tempted to act out on these feelings! It hasn’t been that long ago, that we don’t forget the movie “The Graduate” – when it is a movie & someone else, it can be a stimulating fantasy, but when it is reality for you, it is scary – I know!In addition to the Dobson book, I highly recommend a book by Patrick Carnes, “Out of the Shadows” – This is not about making judgements about morality, it’s about a serious condition that the afflicted person has no real control over – they may think they do, but perhaps not!!
SA, particularly for women, is very hard for people to accept. Believe me, it is a real illness!! – The person (SA) is not a bad person, they are a sick person! -- It is not about sex. It is about a person’s feelings of inadequacy or lack of self worth – they are trying to fill a hole with the chemical charge they receive with acts of LUST – forbidden, dirty Lusting kinds of sex gives off a bigger charge (in the brain – an actual chemical thing!) for this person – it is progressive! A normal, healthy sexual relationship is not enough, they seek more & more “excitement” [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] What could be more daring, or forbidden or lustful than romancing a teenager!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] No one that knows my DW would ever dream she did what she did!! This may be a bad reference, but I was reminded the other day by someone that evidently people that knew or ran into Ted Bundy thought that he was a very nice, gentle person!
This SA tag for a women is so difficult for people to accept, most counselors even have a difficult time accepting it. Read the book and try to find a counselor that is open to the idea – for you to talk to. This is just like drug or alcohol addiction – the addict does not want to admit they are out of control or this is an issue. The sex is their drug to give them relief or escape so to speak & they don’t want to give it up!Here is something I found has helped me, something for you to try & internalize: “You did not create the problem, you can’t control it (your W!), and you can’t cure it (only she can do this!).” It does not sound like she is in any position to come close to admission of this kind of thing. They call this denial, of course.Remember, I’m not a professional & not an expert on this, but I know that it is very serious – you cannot force her to fix this – you can encourage her into counseling, but the addict will hide it many times – you could give her this book –perhaps she’ll see it, perhaps not – it seems to me that she is living in her fantasy world and it sounds like she is not close to coming out of it right now.I feel like I’m coming into the middle of this & I don’t know what all has transpired; I am just very concerned about your emotional well being – I may be totally wrong here, but I cannot see where what your W is doing is anywhere close to healthy on any level. IMHO, it is important that you try to separate your self emotionally from her a little – where she is going, you may not want to go! Now, I know you love her dearly & don’t want to seem to abandon her – You need to think hard about how you can best help her – this is the tuff part – this is what I struggle with in my situation – sometimes what we do makes the situation worse – it’s like we become an “enabler” for this inappropriate "acting out." Dobson’s book could help with appropriate strategy of seperation here! To formerly separate or a plan B may be an appropriate strategy to ultimately get resolution. This is where a counselor, who is familiar with this problem can help! Even a counselor familiar with Alcohol or Drug addiction can help – Same principles – different “fix” The best advice is for you to focus on you – You cannot be held responsible for her actions!Finally, I concur with TR about the potential for some really strange things that could happen & you need to be careful. Particularly if you do or say things that could upset the apple cart here – Honestly, your W & this guy could both be emotionally unbalanced a little right now & when felt threaten, try desperate things ?? This may seem really bizarre, but I would consider going to the police and filing a notice of sorts – give them a general description of your situation ( I believe they’ll get the picture real quick!) including this guys name and all. The idea is that if something strange happens, they have a heads up. I did this & police were real cooperative – gave me a reference number. I would then share this with a couple people you trust & of course your W & OM -- not a threat of anykind police are not haressing anyone --- just an alert, any citizen has right to voice concerns and potential for vilolence. I hope I have not taken off and out of control myself here – Just think it could have potential to explode and want to take precautions to prevent that!My prayers are with you!!Try to keep positive [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] HH

HH-Thanks, I really haven't even considered a SA in this whole mess. Frankly, I don't think that's the issue (but that could just be MY denial). You see, WS and I haven't been very sexually active for a couple (or four) years. I don't know how these addictions go, but I would imagine that they build up to the addiction level, not just BANG, I'm an addict. But again, I just don't know. I do know that she was raised in the church, with high morals, and a pretty strict ethical code, which makes all of this pretty far out of her charicter. I guess an addiction COULD explain some of that, hmmm. I know that at one point, right around D-Day, she'd mentioned (as a possible reason for her choice to engage in an A), that it could be because SHE'S entering her sexual prime, and HE'S in his sexual prime.... To which I commented that I haven't been satisfied with our SF and frequency for quite some time. I appreciate your advice about giving the police a headsup....I just don't want to have it seen as an LB, and I have a feeling that it would be. I HAVE, however, confided fully to several of my friends- just in case things get crazy. I know that WS has done the same to protect them from me (makes me sick that I had a part in causing THAT).Thanks,
KPS,
Just came into work for an hour or so (worked last night), and couple of other random thoughts came to mind on this subject....there's been some "experimenting" on WS part in recent months. Don't really WANT to disclose it, but it won't be understood for comment otherwise. Probably about a month or so before D-Day (maybe PA had already begun), we all were over at her girlfriend's place having a small party. Don't know exactly how it happened, but they (WS and girlfriend) were kissing. Now, they were explaining that it meant nothing and I believe they may have been doing it on a bet. Obviously, they were both drunk, and WS girlfriend strikes me as pretty much a card carrying homophobe. I got pissed because I didn't want her even PLAYING like that (unless of course it's in OUR private bedroom....JOKING [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ), and left. OM was there and she came home several hours later, hmmm.Now the thing that scares me it that WS girlfriend probably has the STD HPV...she'll be getting her results this next week. But I don't see HOW she COULDN'T have it, she's been dating a man for about a year (mucho sex) who didn't tell her about it. My concern is that (and I asked my DR.) GF could have contracted it orally, and then passed it on to WS when kissing. I've been screened and was negative, but then again, I'm not at risk because we haven't been physical (even kissing) since before then.It just keeps seeming worse and worse.K[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ][ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]

Kev,
Like I said, I'm not a doctor, ot therapist or anythnigclose; although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! (If you get that, then that verifies you & I watch simlilar TV commercials!).
In the SA profile there is a phenomina refered to as Sexual Anerexia -- you see some people with control issues, like my W, for example, find that by withholding sex, they get a feeling of control!
My W did similar experimenting thing -- she coaxed me into taking her to strip club & she got a couple of lap dances.
I see what you mean with the police report & LBing thing -- you guys are seperated right? And she is staying with this guy?
Dobson's book, "Tough Love" -- Carnes, Out of the Shadows" Remember, they're not bad, just sick!
She is probablly having lots of guilt feelings, which fuels the need to get her fix, the lustful sex thing ... it is ficicious cycle -- Get the out of the shadows --hole up for a few hours & study it -- perhaps not much you can do right now, but it will explain a few things!
Peace, [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
HH
PS -- Think about it --
She is risking a lot -- career, reputation in community, besides embarrassment with family ?? What is different from Oregon lady -- 4 or 5 years difference of actual PA ?? Normal people do not do these things!
At least a very compelling, strong, strong compulsion -- why would moralistic, christian person logically do this -- serious issues -- again very symtomatic of "illness" [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]
Check out the book! May not be the case, but sounds like it to me. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img][ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]

HH,to answer a couple of your questions...yes we're separated, and no she's not "officially" living w/ OB (other boy). She's staying at her girlfriend's house, but I know for a fact that she has spent nights at OM house.MAN, I hope you're wrong about the SA thing. That'll only make an already untenable situation even more so and more difficult to resolve successfully. Please pray with me that it's not so. Though I will now keep my eyes open for it.....Just one problem, I have no idea what really to look for. Further, I don't know how or even IF I should try to raise the subject to her. She has been receptive to some of my "education" in the past couple of weeks, but I don't want to offend her sensibilities (such that they are) by coming off as accusing her of being mentally ill (she already thinks everyone, me, her family, etc...) thinks that and it's a pretty sore subject with her. But her therapist was nice enough to reassure her that she's not crazy, that she's OBVIOUSLY been done with the marriage for a LONG time, and basically justified the A to her because she's not been "REALLY" married. All this after less than an hour of talking to the IC.....nice f'n job Biatch!Sorry, just a tad bitter about the (IMHO) ineptitude of the therapist.K[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]

Well, time for today's update. This online, interactive journal is saving me a fortune in paper journals... [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] Anyway, I just got off the phone w/ WS and she DOES want to do the meteor storm thing Sunday morning. She asked how I wanted to handle it, I asked how SHE wanted to do it. She suggested that I pick her up at around 2am. I told her that'd be fine, but that it'd certainly be easier if she stayed here that night, but I didn't want to pressure her.Her "Girls' night out" isn't solid yet, and so she doesn't know if it'll come to pass. I mentioned that I have an extra ticket to the hockey game tomorrow night since my friends are going out to the bars. She suggested that I go with them, but I REALLY want to see the game, plus I can't stay out all night and then try to get up at 1:30 or so...might as well just stay up if I went out (and I'm getting too old for that nonsense [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ).She said that she's leaning towards going to the hockey game. That'd be nice, but it's also a bit of a trigger for me (the last hockey game we went to, days after D-Day, I caught her on the phone w/ OM after she'd promised no contact). I'm stronger now, though, and I'm sure I can make it through it and even enjoy it.I'm just so thankful that she actually WANTS (or at least is considering) to spend time with me, I never thought I'd see the day.BTW, HH, I will look into getting the Dobson book....it's been suggested several times (by you and others), and so I think I probably owe it to myself to pick it up. MAN, that'll make like 10 books in just over a month, NEVER in the history of Kevin has THAT happened [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .One day at a time, slow and steady wins out nearly every time.K

Hey Kev,
Sounds like you are hangin there pretty good.
Thanks for clarifying my questions. Just curious because when you described hangin around outside the window, it sounded like that was his Place.
"The Boy" -- I like that! (LOL)
I know that the SA sounds horrible & radical!
With 10 books, you know that the therapist thing about justification is BS! I mean real BULL SHIXX!! -- I'm guessing she may have made that up.I'm sure your W & mine are not identical, but there may be some common behavior patterns --
For the record in our first 28 & 1/2 years of marriage we averaged sex maybe 3 -4 times a year -- that is average. I know there were a few years it was maybe once or twice -- I of course new this was way out of the ordinary & actually reflected an healthy view of sex -- but I would have never connected that kind of "unhealthy" view as leading into a sexual addiction!
I should again make an important disclosure here. This is not an official, medically proved diagnosis of my DW -- Absolutely a very power influence on her right now & for the past 20 months!
I should emhasize that if your W has this condition, it is treatable, just like any other illness -- you are right though I believe it is a real tuffy, can't just take a medicine for 90 days!
I should also emphasize that this is not considered a "mental illness" I guess I should say that I don't think of it that way, although I just realized that could be a matter of perspective. I aliken it most to Alcoholism. The person that suffers from that condition does not have a problem controlling the drinking because they don't want to, but that it becomes something there body craves it, the body developes a physiological need -- As I try to describe my take on this I'm coming to understand that it is combination mental & physical -- I see your take, where the solution is "mind over body" kind of thing, with therapy & 12 step process, it is more a mental thing.
What I am rambling on about is that they act out because of mental impulses, but also physiological force & strong urges as well. They don't act just because they have weak minds or poor moral character, -- it is a very powerful force.
It is like not every one that gets drunk becomes alcoholic. You know that in the 30's & 40's most experts believed people that could not control their drinking, had this problem because of weak moral character & not a strong will. They did not recognize or treat this as an illness.
I assume you have a few books that analyze different potential reasons for affairs -- Sexual addiction is normally mentioned in these matters.
There are a number of web sites that deal with sexual addiction. IMO, none do quite as good of job in describing the issue as the book "Out of the Shadows"
I understand that with individual counseling, technically the session are to be confidential to each person, particularly if they are sensitive to this. This is good so the individual can feel secure and safe to discus what ever they want.
This also allows the individual some protection, that if they want to make up some story to fit their needs with their S -- Us, they can because they know the counselor is not to tell us -- Your Way not think of doing that -- My W has enough issue and demons she is trying to deal with I don't think she knows herself what to tell who. For example, she has seen her counselor 10-12 times (?) and she knew the vomiting was an issue & not good, something she should not do & it indicates coping problems. She told Counselor for the first time this week -- only when, for what ever reason, it became an unbearable burden to her to keep quiet about! She does not want to be criticized -- for anything, she doesn't get any madder than her ego is hurt or threaten, her vanity or the mere suggestion of a criticism. This makes it extremely difficult to seeks solutions to problem, because to that would mean she has to admit to a problem & she has been able to "act" and control & manipulate to protect these compulsion & unhealthy ways to cope. This is why the denial can be so strong -- they have a sense for potential symptoms and will hid them & shift blame to others. For example, my W said she became so compulsive about sex because I showed her porn flick that I had for Twelve years or so & she had seen several times -- this & we started watching Real Sex on HBO -- she always had veto power over what we watched & we always watch what she wants, otherwise separate TV's. Yet she said it was me that lead her into the lusting because of these tow things! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
Anyway, perhaps you see some similar things with your W? Perhaps not, every situation is different.
Hope you have a good weekend! I'll ty to check back later to see if you have any updates.
Peace, [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]
HH