Marriage Builders
Posted By: AGoodGuy SNL - help me "get it" - 12/28/01 11:26 PM
SNL and others, I've seen a lot of discussion here lately about why BS's just don't "get it", and yet I still am having trouble getting it through my thick skull.<p>SNL said: "It may simply mean the ws just does not want to be married anymore to you, is that so hard to understand? ...you plan a us to death, until we can't take anymore, and have to get some space. ...It does not mean we are selfish, or uncaring, or dislike you, we just do not want the intimacy of marriage with you. ...We tell you this and you still don't get it."<p>The part I don't get is this. SNL, you make it sound like the WS typically comes up to the BS, kisses him/her on the cheek, and says "honey, I don't want to be married to you anymore". And then they file for divorce. <p>Yet the reality is that from what I see here, most WS's don't do it that way. They (including my VSTBXW, and you too, SNL) don't say that they want out. They tell us that they are not in love with us, are confused, and don't know what they want (usually they neglect to inform us that they are already sleeping with someone else). Then, after having dumped this wonderful news on us, they run out to the backyard and proceed to build a fence, on which they promptly climb and grow roots. We, the BS's, try to get them off the fence, to no avail. I know you think it's selfish of us to try to preserve our families, but isn't it just as selfish of you to torture us with your indecision? At least we BS's KNOW what we want...<p>If all you (WS's) want is out, why don't you just LEAVE, without the lies, the cheating, the "confusion", the "fence sitting"? That's the part I don't get.... Can you help me?<p>AGG<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: AGoodGuy ]</p>
Posted By: belldandy Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 01:01 AM
AGG,<p>As much as it pains me to say this, I don't think that any BS will truly understand the mindset and motives of a fence-sitting WS. Do you really *want* to understand? If you did come to some kind of understanding, wouldn't it mean that you are capable of that kind of mindset? I don't understand, and I'm glad I don't understand the whole fence-sitting ordeal. <p>I might also mention that I'm not a big proponent of Plan A. It did not work for me. I had suspicions ... and as long as I just had *suspicions* that H was still in contact with the OW, I promised myself that I would play nice. But once I found out for sure, proof positive, he was outta there, no questions asked. Immediate Plan B. I'm convinced that is the only reason that we're still together. And believe me, it was not the blessing I thought it would be. Because I still feel like a schmuck, planting a pleasant smile on my face all the while H was lying to me about continued contact with XOW.<p>I do also think that when some WS say they want out ... they want out. But for me, personally, the only way to find out where I stood was to go directly to Plan B. <p>belld
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 01:43 AM
Hi belld,<p>I agree with you, when some want out, they want out. When my VSTBXW finally got her butt out (after eight months of fence sitting), it was huge relief for me...<p>What I take issue with is SNL's constant rhetoric that we (the BS's) are somehow manipulating the WS's by trying to keep the marriage together. Like I said, if the WS's want out, why don't they just leave?? Why do they sprout roots on their homebuilt fences? And then we are chastised for not getting "it"... What is the "it"???<p>AGG
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 01:47 AM
that was a brief comment to elad in the context of his post. But I will try to answer your question, in part from how I "feel", and in part from what I understand about human behaviour, and you must decide for yourself whether what I know is correct, or just a lot of foggy baloney, your call. I will say though, unlike most people I have met thousands of people, married and single in the course of my adult life. Depending on how observant I am, that counts for something. But I am not a "trained" psychologist, and do not claim such expertise either....although I generally get pretty good marks from the professionals I have dealt with over the years. What I do know is real life is nothing like what you read about here, this stuff applies to a very small number of people. Even the mere fact that the harleys only "see" people who can (and are willing) to pay $120 hr is self-selecting in itself. IMO their principles represent good observational skills on how successful marriages work, but do not adequately reflect how few people will apply these principles, and what to do when married to those who will not. Nor do their principles adequately deal with motivation. There is so much talk about "doing it" and all will be well......<p>well, maybe, but at the very least one must want to do it, and many of the bs are married to people who do not want to do it, and they just refuse to accept that.....that drives them to coercive behaviours (as I mentioned), and even if they work (apparently restore) that is no better a basis for marriage than an affair, and leaveing to marry the op. Marriage (as in intimate bonding, should be about a completely free choice, no guilt or coercion or manipulation of any kind). I suspect the harleys have been far less successful than is assumed, and I find it odd they have no statistical database, or follow-up programs to document and support the notion love is just a decision, just do it, and you will be passionately in-love with whoever you focus on. I really wonder how many people have been exposed to MB principles, went on to restore their marriages, and are living long-term (5, 10, 20) passionate marriages now, vs how many are still unfullfilled and unhappy in their marriages, gave up anyways, or never restored in the first place. No one knows, there is no excuse for that, they should have good solid numbers, that can be independently verified.<p>This is what I mean by don't get it. People just assume marriage is a by the numbers activity. Just do it, and all will be wonderful. BS who subscribe to this (and MB encourages it), act as if it is all just a matter of plan a, that they really know what is best for the ws, and so forth. This is patronizing in the extreme, and fosters a notion the ws is just some childish truant, who must be led from the fog and repaired. The sad thing is, human psychology being what it is, many times a ws can be apparently "fixed", only they really aren't, they just give into the manipulation, and come back (usually cause the op didn't work out), and the marriage muddles along, a honeymoon period, and then a gradual slipping back to the sameo sameo....you hear it here, time after time after time, and it is so sad, such wasted lives. <p>My point is listen to your ws, maybe they are confused, maybe not, maybe for the first time they are telling you the truth, they really just do not want to be married to you....it is not so terrible, they were a stranger once allready in your life, you don't have to be married to them to be have a successful life. If you don't consider this, and what the real basis of your desire to reel them back in is, what do you win? Nothing, just a sad lonely marriage, to either someone who is just settling for you, or has personality disorders and will never bond very well, and you will be making excuses for them and your marriage forever. And yes, it can be restored, and is occassionally, but IMO one should be very demanding and analytical about what is happening, not just try to restore the "fantasy", cause you cannot bear failing, or being alone, or starting over. I hear often people voice, but what if I didn't give it that extra extra try, I will always wonder....I say so what? We will always wonder about life, it is the nature of life. Who is to say if you were not more realistic, and set high standards you would not have found a much better mate who would have made your life far more rewarding? (and would no longer worry much about what might have been).<p>This is all philosophic stuff, and is hated by some here, probably cause it questions motivations, and suggests people (bs) are in a lot of denial themselves. And implies it makes a difference who we are married too, a huge difference. I can't help that, the fact is it does make a difference. The quality of your marriage is a direct function of who you marry.... not how well you plan a.<p>agg...SNL said: "It may simply mean the ws just does not want to be married anymore to you, is that so hard to understand? ...you plan a us to death, until we can't take anymore, and have to get some space. ...It does not mean we are selfish, or uncaring, or dislike you, we just do not want the intimacy of marriage with you. ...We tell you this and you still don't get it."<p>agg...The part I don't get is this. SNL, you make it sound like the WS typically comes up to the BS, kisses him/her on the cheek, and says "honey, I don't want to be married to you anymore". And then they file for divorce. <p>snl...Was not my intent to imply that. Indeed it is more often a messy business, proceeded by years of fighting and neglect, affairs, workaholism, many things. And the dissolution is fraught with hurt feelings, accusations (about vows and such), and all the usual games people play when they try to control each other. My point is allow some dislocation of emotions when divorce finally is put on the table...but get over it, and start dealing with it rationally, radical honesty, each spouse telling the other, yes I want this marriage to work (and then doing the doggone work!!!!!!!!!), or no, I would prefer to be seperated, and divorce...then do just that. Instead the spouse who does not want a divorce fights tooth and nail to "make" the other see how wrong they are, and how they should want the marriage....this is extremely disrespectful, your spouse is an adult, assume they are honestly telling you their feelings, thank them, and act on it amicably. If they come to find they feel differently they will tell you....but instead we generate this huge emotional turmoil, and many ws will cave, they just cannot stand all the unhappiness etc..... and the marriage continues, but with a fundamentally uncommited spouse. I do not think that is desireable, or conducive to passionate marriages.<p>agg....yet the reality is that from what I see here, most WS's don't do it that way. They (including my VSTBXW, and you too, SNL) don't say that they want out. They tell us that they are not in love with us, are confused, and don't know what they want (usually they neglect to inform us that they are already sleeping with someone else). <p>snl...Indeed it is messy, in a perfect world this is not how it would happen, but then in a perfect world we would not have unhappy marriages either, nor would we have neglect, abuse, sociopaths, crime, greed, and a lot of other things either. I can only speak for myself, but a lot of those things, confusion, don't know etc, is a direct response to the incredible pressure of having someone tell you you are destroying them. I know I do not have the power to destroy anyone, but I am not uncaring, and the desire not to hurt my w is almost more than I can stand (so I feel responsible for her, and vows, and all that stuff)....but the alternative is to just give in, and settle, and that is no good, and unfair to her too. This is the place many ws find themselves, and it is cause the bs will not let us go without extracting the emotional pound of flesh. This is not how love should work, it should not be about anger, and promises, and coercion, and guilt.....I would never want anyone to love me that way, and I cannot understand you that do. If a spouse says I do not want to be married, all one can do is respectful ask for an explanation, respectfully request councelling (if one thinks it would be useful), and honor their feelings and let them go. <p>In-love cannot exist unless BOTH enthusiastically want to be married, it really does not make any difference whether you think they are in a fog or not. You can only let them go, and if you are right, they really are the one for you, they won't go very far....<p>As for affairs, is just one way of saying you are done (not necessarily a good way, but it is a way). Perhaps if marriage licenses expired every 5 years, and had to be renewed their would be less affairs. Affairs come in several flavors, but one is simply an outcome of no longer wanting to be married, and in this state of emotional divorce (harleys term, not mine) one is "vulnerable" so to speak to bonding with another, but having divorced yet cause of the emotional inertia present in human relationships, and the common practice of avoiding this kind of emotional controversy.... but an affair forces you to face it.<p>agg...Then, after having dumped this wonderful news on us, they run out to the backyard and proceed to build a fence, on which they promptly climb and grow roots. We, the BS's, try to get them off the fence, to no avail. I know you think it's selfish of us to try to preserve our families, but isn't it just as selfish of you to torture us with your indecision? At least we BS's KNOW what we want..<p>snl....Selfish? Another overused word, and concept, yep the bs are selfish and they hide behind family and vows, and yes the ws are selfish, cause they too want what they want. It is the nature of humans good guy, and we all think our selfish is ok, and everyone elses wrong. Frankly I don't really care at all about the selfish arguments, I just consider it a given EVERYONE is totally selfish, and is irrelevant. What I am concerned about is one thing, and one thing only.....that two people enthusiastically, honestly, and passionately choose each other, freely and without coercion, manipulation, guilt, etc. of any kind...that's it, pretty simple really. In the choice of who we are going to spend our lives with, sleep with, give our bodies too, it should be a TOTALLY selfish choice, don't you agree? Or do you want to "own" your spouse? There is a lot of talk about vows, is so stupid. Is their anyone, I mean really anyone, who wants someone to be their spouse who does not honestly want them? If so, and they cite vows make it ok, how is this different from owning the deed to any property? Of course not, so instead the bs not only wants the ws to "stay" they want them to want to stay, and lie about it to boot. If you ask your spouse are they in-love with you do you want the truth? I suggest if you are gonna come unglued you do not want the truth, you want them to lie, they know it, and they know you know it, and it makes us crazy.<p>agg....If all you (WS's) want is out, why don't you just LEAVE, without the lies, the cheating, the "confusion", the "fence sitting"? That's the part I don't get.... Can you help me?<p>snl...Is very easy agg. You let em go, no guilt, no hurt feelings, no woe is me, no accusations of fog, no complaints about vows, no nothing. In the meantime you plan a (for a short time), then plan b if they are sitting on fence, then plan d. You live your life with increasing independence as you disconnect, making it clear they have a place for a limited time (assuming you want to give em one). This will eliminate all the agony bs go through, will put the proper pressure on a ws who is confused, and will lead to a specific resolution in a reasonable time frame. But there is so much denial and co-dependentcy in marriage that people just will not do this.<p>This is necessarily brief agg, perhaps you can divine my basic ideas about this stuff, hope it helps. No doubt I will recieve a few slings and arrows, but I did this cause you asked, and cause it makes me so sad to see bs beating their brains out for nothing. IMO I disagree, I don't think most marriages are worth saving, I think perhaps a significant number can be saved, but many are simply not going to work, are unsafe, non-nurturing places, and for the life of me, I cannot understand why people keep trying to make them work..... I especially do not understand the women who obsessively (and sacrificially) "love" men who clearly will never love them right. I think that many are "project" women, who are convinced they are the "one" who will lead this man to the light....kind of a narcissim in reverse I guess. This isn't brain surgury, human psychology is not that difficult if you really apply yourself, nor is it that hard to discern the reality of a given marriage.... all it really takes is radical honesty, and a cessation of game playing with each other. What seems to be more difficult, is for people to figure out what THEY really want/need from a marriage, and have the courage to seek it out (and end a marriage where it will not happen).<p>I have left all the religious arguments out of this agg. My position is simple, I have examined the Scriptures for myself (as opposed to the brainwashing I have recieved all my Christian life).... nowhere does the Bible (or God) say a given marriage is absolute, or even the right one....what Scripture is about is describing how marriage looks, feels, IMO so we have a standard for assessing whether we have successfully bonded...and if not, well IMO the Bible is saying we need to do something about it. Either fix it, and meet the standard, or end it. What a given individual does is between them and God, and discerning His will for us. No one can tell you what to do, either stay married, or divorce.
Posted By: Estes49 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 02:21 AM
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>..maybe for the first time they are telling you the truth, they really just do not want to be married to you....it is not so terrible <hr></blockquote>
<p>snl,<p>This statment brings me to tears and makes me literally sick to my stomach. Please tell me you don't really believe this. What a callous statement that is to these hurting people. Perhaps people on the receiving end of such a statment would like to comment on whether or not "...it is not so terrible."

MHO,
Estes
Posted By: belldandy Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 02:55 AM
SNL,<p>Yeah, that was kinda harsh, my man. You know that I agree with you on some things and I disagree on others, but that was a bit too blunt. Sometimes unsolicited honesty isn't really appropriate, given the situation. And again - not to say that I am disagreeing with you; merely your semantics. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>AGG - you know what I really think? I think that the mind of a WS, regardless of whether they want out or if they just want to be selfish and have a fling, is so full of dark, greedy thoughts, it is unfathomable to most people. Why do they fence sit? Could be the financial situation is conducive to them. Not many women want to give up their financial stability - even for love. Especially if that love is not yet guaranteed. Not wanting to look like the bad guy. I think that's also a big one. Many people who have EMRs - at least those that I am aware of - are very image conscious and do *not* want to be seen as the heavy. Even if they are. It's a bit of a narcissistic value built in, IMHO.<p>Why do fence sitters stay? Again, MHO is that they are hard-wired to use other people for their own benefit and are lacking in the empathy department. Doesn't make them 100% evil people ... just different from you, with different flaws.<p>belld
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 02:59 AM
SNL, thanks for your thoughts. I actually agree with your point that not all marriages can (or should) be saved. <p>Where I do disagree with you is your assertion that in most cases the WS wants out and the BS wants to keep the WS against their will. In most cases, the WS climbs on the fence, leaving everyone in a state of suspended animation. To top it off, the WS often continues the affair, while still fence-sitting. This puts the BS into the untenable position of having to put up with the WS's affair (a disrespectful behavior if ever I saw one), or become proactive and file for the divorce. This is somewhat comical, because the last thing most BS's want is a divorce, yet the WS who is "unsure" or "confused" is not willing to do the filing. Just for the record, I ended up doing exactly that (filing for divorce from my WS) after she built a fence the size of the Great Wall of China. So I do not agree that most WS's want out and the BS's keep them against their will.<p>Like I said, that's the part I don't get. Why can't the WS (who supposedly wants so bad to leave the marriage) just LEAVE? I know you say it's pressure from the BS, peer pressure, or whatever. Yet you yourself said: "either fix it, and meet the standard, or end it". I think the BS's are trying to do the former, yet the WS's are doing neither...Why?
Posted By: Rick37 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 03:05 AM
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think the BS's are trying to do the former, yet the WS's are doing neither...Why? <hr></blockquote><p>Interesting thread. I'd answer this saying that generally they are just afraid to lose "everything" that they lose by ending the marriage. So they try and hold on loosely to the marriage and carry on the affair at the same time, until they know clearly what they want. Kind of sad.
Posted By: belldandy Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 03:12 AM
Rick, ditto. I think you're right. But I also think that they (WS) have also set up a tacit "beauty contest" between the OP and their spouse, and they're waiting to see which one scores enough points to win. If it's a case where the WS really wants to be with the OP, my guess is that they want to feel secure in *that* relationship, so they can hop from the marriage into a relationship/marriage with the OP. I can particularly see this being true for female WS's, who are more financially dependent on their spouses as a general rule.<p>After all, no use giving up one's comfort without a guarantee. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>belld
Posted By: Estes49 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 03:23 AM
All the philosophizing in the world doesn't change the fact that some things are right and some things are wrong. Stringing along a wounded BS and family for whatever reason - the ubiquitous "confusion", self-interest, reluctance to leave children behind, financial concerns, etc. - is cruel and disrespectful and categorically wrong.<p>I agree, either fix it or get out. The problem is that a fence-sitting WS is refusing, passively or actively, to participate in fixing the M, and he/she certainly is not getting out.<p>I suspect that one motivation for fence-sitting is to push the BS to such a point of dispair that he/she files for divorce in emotional self-defense. This way the WS absolves him/herself of the responsibility of being the one to break up the marriage. After all, the BS was the one to file for divorce, right?<p>I would never contend that the BS has nothing to improve upon because that is not true. But a fence-sitting WS is intentionally just plain cruel. Meanwhile, the BS waivers between the humiliation of rejection and the fear of losing the M. <p>Wishing all better days,
Estes<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 05:00 AM
the concern is about fence sitting? Ok, my 2 cents.... there is no such thing. It is an image, a semantic construct, a way for a bs (and that point of bias) to diminish the efforts of the ws to resolve the marriage..... instead I would call it a "dance" each plays a role...the bs clings and tries to keep the marriage going, the ws fencesits and tries to end the marriage....until one or the other takes definitive action, the dance continues. The bs can end it any time they choose, by plan b/d, just like the ws can end it anytime by reconcilliatio(with protection)/or divorce. Frankly I see no functional difference in the 2 positions, each is voluntary and one cannot exist without the other....why is this a big deal? Correct me if I am missing something here, but can't a bs knock the ws off the fence anytime they so choose? The real question is why do bs (and ws for that matter) torture themselves at all. The solution is still the same, you plan a a couple months, you then plan b a few months, then you serve divorce papers. While I feel bad for all the folks who suffer in dysfunctional relationships, I am finding it increasingly difficult to muster much sympathy for long term suffering, we all have choices in life, and those who hang on to dysfunctional relationships and cry about the torture, I gotta ask, who is making you do so? Or is it a choice? I don't want to appear heartless here to a board populated by bs, and the pain of a relationship ending, but in the final analysis, we all choose our poison, so what purpose is served crying about being a victim? To me, this just seems to perpetuate the pain. Every adult worthy of being an adult surely understands no relationship is gauranteed, and may end, in fact probably will end (statistically speaking), and most likely badly....correct?<p>estes...... (snl)maybe for the first time they are telling you the truth, they really just do not want to be married to you....it is not so terrible <p>estes...This statment brings me to tears and makes me literally sick to my stomach. Please tell me you don't really believe this. What a callous statement that is to these hurting people. Perhaps people on the receiving end of such a statment would like to comment on whether or not "...it is not so terrible."<p>snl....These threads place me in a conundrum, I am asked a philosophical question which deserves an honest answer, one devoid of emotion. Yet I will usually be chastised for being heartless, cruel,insensitive, whatever..... I am none of those things. The stories here bring me to tears, and outrage regularly. These issues cannot be resolved emotionally, nor can they be resolvedanalytically, it requires both. There is much emotion on this board, I try to put a little analytical spin to stuff also. IMO the way out of emotional turmoil is to turn off the emotions (after assessing what direction you want to go), and subject the decision to an analytical test, if you find agreement you act on it...if not, back to the emotional (or analytical ) drawing board. The fact of the matter is estes, marriage is not important to human survival....or more exactly, a particular marriage is not. One can (and usually will) marry again with little difficulty and be quite content (assuming one has learned relationship truths and skills). Kids will survive and prosper as well. There is far to much pathos attached to this stuff, in the overall scheme of life (and disasters) divorce is pretty mundance, and routine to boot....it is something we are well equipped psychologically to deal with successfully, if we choose too. I am just stating a fact, there should be no emotion attached to this position. If this were not true, then the death of a spouse would be just as traumatic (as in destroy ones life), but it is not. You grieve, and move on, in a sense that is what life is about, losing things, and moving on, until the final loss, our life.<p>Folks (and you I assume here) focus on the grief associated with the loss of a relationship (divorce) and elevate it to a "destruction" type experience, what justification is there to support this? I know people (you too I am sure) who equate losing a pet to the loss of a child, or spouse.... this is no doubt real to them, but it is ridiculous, and IMO is obsessive type behaviour. I am a realist estes, a pragmatic person, even in my own um....... angst, and emotional agony, part of me still recognizes this will pass, is a form of self-pity, and my life is not that important. As to marriage, it is a roll of the dice, you may get emotional hurt, badly, but you don't suffer any real damage, not by any realistic measureable standard, it is all in our heads. I could go on to talk about emotions, and such in evolutionary terms, genetic terms, and such, but would serve no purpose. Just rest easy in that I recognize people feel pain, and if I am dealing with a specific circumstance, and particular emotional distress I apply a different approach, a more supportive, touchy feely appropach....but I will never be a party to agreeing with someone their life is over, that is not helping them at all. <p>IMO marriage itself is of little import, and is worshiped way too much....what I am interested in is emotional health of people, and I cannot see any way a marriage without enthusiastic participation of both parties is of much benefit..how about you? So the whole effort of "making" the ws see the error of their ways stinks to me, adults should find their own center, make their own freewill choice, without coercion, manipulation of any kind, otherwise is meaningless....would you agree? That means if your spouse says they want to go, you just let em go, and move on, why would you want someone you talk/coerce/manipulate/guilt into being with you? One of the things that offends me the most is other people, extended family and such, dictating to a spouse (who wants to leave a marriage) what is acceptable or not, who they can love or not. Talk about pressure and coercion...sheesh. Coercion abounds, it is everywhere, huge efforts are made to bind a spouse anyway one can into staying in a marriage, I often wonder why. I wouldn't make any effort at all to keep a wife, if she wants to go, then go...but I guess I have a different view of intimacy....I don't want to own anyone, or be settled for....would rather be alone. In my case, I believe my w settled, I have always known this, and it is not ok.... to many here that makes me a villian, why I do not know. I also deeply resent the notion that I am too stupid to understand my own feelings and what I want (as some feel about ws).....but just to be fair and such, I have revisited all this stuff, analyzed it to death (as we do here) to find the fundamental psychological truths. I cannot help what I "feel" (that is the beauty and agony of feelings) and I have no intention of burying them and putting on the happy face to satisfy folks, feelings are vitally important to pur success as and happiness, only a fool would ignore them (and that is what duty/vows require, ignoring feelings and living by rules alone). I intend to live my life honestly, MB helped save my life, I finally had license to be radically honest, and frankly I love it.<p>what made you sick exactly anyways? Was it a misunderstanding of what I said? All I am doing is being honest here, and in my marriage, as harleys require, yet I get chastisted for it all the time...go figure. I sometimes wonder if folks think I am secretly really in-love with my w, and am just torturing her for sadistic pleasure, why I would do this escapes me.....I am not torturing her, she can leave anytime, I am just doing my best to be sure I know my own mind, what more can anyone expect? I offered to divorce her as soon as I realized what my actions pretty much ended what little there was left of the marriage. She said no, I am not making her do any of this, is her choice (as is mine). There are 3 outcomes, she will take action, I will take action, or we will decide on a course of action together...why is the ws on trial for being the decider? Anyways, I digress, some of this was not about your question, I am rambling some, and just thinking outloud.
Posted By: thinker Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 05:02 AM
My opinion being the BS, is that the WS sits on the fence, uses the bs to get what they want, and leaves saying goodbye its been nice. Fend for yourself. The BS does their job Plan A WS plays the field, and who loses the BS. In my case, my WSH played the I'm so discumbuberated, etc. I am trying and still it is not what I would like. My EN are not being met according to my EN questionaire. Seems that the WS had their fun with the OP and stay in their present marriage for their convenience until they finally have decided and then leave. In the meantime they should plan B, which I am seriously thinking about doing. Feel the need to talk to a lawyer, about my rights in this state. Talked to H about getting a job in the last few days, after getting over the upcoming death of my father. H at one time said no, but now he says not no, but what would you do? I feel he wants me to get totally independent and that gives him the right to leave without feeling guilty. Seems he doesn't feel guilty and remorse about his Physical Affair. Has never expressed it to me or to this board. Had an argument with H just this morning. He wanted me to do something in the hosopital that I felt was wrong and I said I can't do it, we were talking on the phone and he hung up and was rude. I made the phone call back a few minutes later and he apologized. Controlling is not a good thing, and I feel the WS control big time, I am experiencing a lot of control by my H. Yes, the WS plays around with the BS, plays and knows that they are winning, why don't they leave? Why would someone give up getting things they need done, having the grass greener on the other side of the fence, and having had their fun with the OP give all this up? Like my H says, there is only one affair per marriage. I don't feel that way, why did he get to have fun, spend lots of money on the other woman, she is living scot free, no loss of money, no hardship on her family, etc. She told my H she is not going to tell her H and family that she and my H had an EA/PA. So she continues on with life like nothing has happened. She is a classic user, controller, and manipulater plus she not only did this to my family but another one earlier in her marriage. My H fell for her, and here I am watching him straddle the fence on what to do. Life sucks big time, why do you think depression is so rampid with these people sitting and having their cake and eating it? I have expressed to my H that I am looking at guys. In fact, this guy (nurse) at the hospital gave me a big hug today, it felt good. I didn't have to ask for it, he said give me a hug, for telling him he was young looking. It made me feel really good inside, and I said, that is what I like. Unasked hugs, positive comments, and a real honest to goodness statement from a man. Being a WS is much more in control than the BS. BS sit and wait, but there is a limit to our wait. My limit is coming up, and I feel sad about it, but I am a loving kind woman, and their will be someone I can live with who will love me for me. I will never marry again, live in sin, just like you people stated to me, just ask God for forgiveness. And keep asking God for forgiveness. I wonder if my H has actually asked God for forgiveness? He feels his affair was justified. So that is why I am not sure he is marriage material. Look at having our assignments done for Steve Harley. My was turned in 2 weeks ago, I don't feel H has turned his in yet. He has time to type here, our marriage I guess takes the backseat. This is what I mean, the WS sits sits sits sits sits sits till one day the fence is imbedded in his hindend and it is too late.
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 05:46 AM
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>The bs can end it any time they choose, by plan b/d, just like the ws can end it anytime by reconcilliatio(with protection)/or divorce. Frankly I see no functional difference in the 2 positions, each is voluntary and one cannot exist without the other....why is this a big deal? Correct me if I am missing something here, but can't a bs knock the ws off the fence anytime they so choose? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>
SNL, the BS's already know what they want (to keep the marriage intact), and it is the WS's who fence-sit while they decide what they want. This is the fundamental difference between the two. <p>I am not trying to argue as to who is a "better" person, or who is the victim, etc. All I am curious about in this thread is why so many WS's blame the BS's for wanting to save their marriages while they (the WS's) want the option of being "confused" and "undecided".<p>BTW, the BS cannot knock the WS off the fence. Once the WS is on the fence, the only choice the BS has is to either sit by the fence and wait it out (very painful, especially if the WS continues the affair during this time), or the BS can choose to walk away from the fence in defeat. But in no case can the BS make the WS choose the marriage or the OP. That is why the BS's feel so powerless. If you think about it, despite all your references to the pressure from others to keep a marriage intact, the fact remains that the legal system allows one person to end the marriage even if the other person objects, and does not allow the reverse. So by definition, the so-called freedom of choice does not apply equally to the BS's and the WS's. The WS's can do what they want, while the BS's can only hope for their desired outcome. <p>Anyway, after all this banter, I still don't get it, I guess. Why can't the WS's decide what they want? And why do they blame the BS's for wanting to save the marriage? I think for most BS's, the most painful part is not the affair, nor the divorce (if it comes to that). If you read the D/D board, the worst part is almost always the uncertainty and the waiting, the kind that fence-sitting WS's create due to their "confusion".<p>AGG
Posted By: RustyZ Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 06:00 AM
AGoodGuy,<p>I've been pouring over SnL's post, trying to find actual answers to your original question. I think I have the Cliff's Notes version here:<p>Here's what he wants: "You let em go, no guilt, no hurt feelings, no woe is me, no accusations of fog, no complaints about vows, no nothing." Doesn't want that "pound of flesh" extracted. Consequences for actions are a real bear! WS's are generally already proficient conflict and consequence avoiders, but once the affair is out of the bag, they are in a position where they will feel some sort of pain no matter what they decide to do...it's their own fault, but that's a responsibility issue and they've already flunked that course, obviously. So they freeze. They hop on the fence and sit there because they don't want to deal with the choice. <p>Now, the fact that they have to make such a painful decision is, well, painful--pain bad. The fact that they have all this messy pain is very distressing and this pain must be deflected somehow. So the betrayed spouse trying to save the marriage or demanding a decision becomes a "manipulator" and "disrespectful". The "selfishness" of the betrayed spouse in being angry and hurt and demanding action justifies the selfishness of the infidel in cheating and fence-sitting. <p>I'm picking on SnL a bit--he does make some good points here and there. But regardless of any of his elaborately constructed self-justifying paradigms, the answer to the original question (basically, why did they have to lie and cheat and then sit on the fence and pout rather than end the marriage with some semblence of honor?) boils down to: avoid pain, avoid conflict,avoid responsibility, avoid the hard choices. It's messy and hard to end a marriage. Avoid the pain, get some pleasure=have an affair. And when the WS is caught, and it becomes impossible to avoid these things, freeze, deflect the blame, force somebody else to make the hard choice for you so you can avoid the pain of being the bad person and the pain of hard decisions. <p>And this, I believe, is why SnL remains where he is, neither committing to his marriage, nor ending it, but wonderfully proficient at explaining all kinds of reasons why.
Posted By: BrambleRose Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 06:01 AM
((((((((((((thinker))))))))))))<p>While I often think that your H has some very good and very interesting things to say, I have to agree with your assessment that he is fence sitting.<p>Often I agree wholeheartedly with things he says to other people....and yet....when he talks about himself and you, its very clear that he's twisting and turning every bit of logic or philosophical/psychological thought into something that supports what he is doing.<p>What I truely think, especially after reading his comments above, is that snl is very much looking for you to make the decision to end the marriage to avoid taking responsiblity.<p>And you know what? I was a problem controller in my past marriage. But gee, imagine this, my H is in many ways worse than I ever was...yet he is the one who has always complained the loudest! <p>The fact of the matter is that the WS should be taking responsibilty by choosing to leave before moving on to someone else. I have, as have you and many of us BS's, been attracted to other people that seemed to be a better "fit" than our spouses...and yet choose to stay committed to our promises and obligations. It takes grit and courage to make that choice. <p>The WS often does behave cruelly...trying to keep the BS in the marriage, making hints and promises that keep the BS from exacting consequences on the WS.<p>They take the path of least resistance...and will do anything to get everyone around them to continue providing a comfortable environment for their unacceptable behavior.<p>They are addicts. Its no different than an alcoholic addiction.<p>If the WS truely wanted out - they'd leave, file, and carry on with their lives. But they don't.<p>My H left and told me our marriage was over. And yet he didn't file. Supposedly he didn't have money. His OW was begging him to file...yet he didn't.<p>6 months later, he bought himself a new car with some extra money, instead of filing. A month later he bought ME my car off of lease instead of filing. 3 months later - I decided that I had had enough, and I filed.<p>And yet he begged me to drop the divorce - all the while his OW (the woman that he still calls magnificant, and wishes he had met without impediment) was planning our divorce, without his apparent cooperation.<p>He told me he choose to reconcile. And then kept lying and sneaking around and dating and Steve Harley told me to do Plan Divorce a second time.<p>So I did. And my H got on his knees and said, I want you, not OW.<p>And yet he ran right back to her. And kept coming around to me....<p>I didn't drop the divorce the second time until I had proof positive that it was a real choice this time.<p>But gee, he was fence sitting for 18 months.<p>Now, after that first year, I was happily getting on with my life and looking forward to being free.<p>It wasn't until real consequences were looming (our first court date) that he really hopped off that fence.<p>Except in the first couple of months after discovery, I was NOT one of those BS's who used plan A to manipulate and abuse and cling to my H. I used it to set him free.<p>EVERYTIME that I made a decision that didn't give him his cake - he came running.<p>I'm not saying that you should divorce snl to get his attention...<p>I'm just pointing out that to many of us who've been around the block a few times with WSs and affairs and divorces all recognize that snl is clearly on the fence. I'd have to say though, it sounds like he wants to avoid responsiblity for deciding which side he's going to land on.<p>And I have little respect for that kind of attitude.<p>I can hear your pain, and its clear that you do love your H very much. But I'd agree, time for plan B, and even D, if Steve agrees.<p>((((((hugs)))))))
Posted By: Estes49 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 06:39 AM
In response to snl:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The bs can end it any time they choose, by plan b/d, just like the ws can end it anytime by reconcilliatio(with protection)/or divorce. Frankly I see no functional difference in the 2 positions, each is voluntary and one cannot exist without the other....why is this a big deal? Correct me if I am missing something here, <hr></blockquote><p>No correction, snl, what you see or do not see is as a big deal is not for me to say. The reality is that there is a huge difference. To me the big deal is that the BS is in the position that he/she is in because of a betrayal of intimate trust by the WS. Given the choice, BS would never choose to be in this position. The WS did choose for things to be this way, because he/she could have ended the marriage at any time. All they have to do is file. The BS can't stop them. To say that the BS position is voluntary is to liken their situation to that of a grievously wounded person who voluntarily chooses to struggle to stay alive or who voluntarily chooses to die. The WS's voluntary position is likened to someone who assaults another then voluntarily chooses to try to patch that person up or to kill him. Functional difference or not, these is a huge moral difference.<p>That fence-sitting is:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>... a way for a bs (and that point of bias) to diminish the efforts of the ws to resolve the marriage <hr></blockquote><p>What about the WS having the courage to make the decision BEFORE adding insult to injury by prolonging the announcement of how he/she intends to "resolve" (what a deceptively benign sounding euphemism) the marriage?<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>the bs clings and tries to keep the marriage going, the ws fencesits and tries to end the marriage <hr></blockquote><p>This is an equality? "tries to keep the marriage going" = "tries to end the marriage"? What is this about "tries" to end the marriage. You do or you don't. There is nothing the BS can do to prevent it. If the WS does not file, it is because that is his/her choice. The BS has no legal way to stop it. IMO, the WS avoids making a decision because he/she hasn't figured out the action that would benefit him/her the most.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't want to appear heartless here to a board populated by bs, and the pain of a relationship ending, but in the final analysis, we all choose our poison, so what purpose is served crying about being a victim? <hr></blockquote><p>I reject the generalization that we all choose our own poison. What does that mean? If you are saying, "Don't complain about what you allow to happen." then I agree. If you are saying the BS chose to be betrayed, no way!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>what made you sick exactly anyways? <hr></blockquote><p>Well, snl, the thing that makes me sick - and I really do mean the cramp in the stomach, gut-wrenching nausea feeling - is that your statement
makes me relive how absolutely terrible it HAS BEEN/STILL IS for my family to go through just such a thing. To hear someone proclaim the opinion that "..it is not so terrible" to a family for whom it most definitely IS terrible opens emotional wounds that are very real. It shows an absolute lack of understanding of, or refusal to accept, reality. I take back my statement about your telling me that you really don't believe that telling someone you do not want to be married to them is not so terrible. I realize that you DO believe it. snl, your belief is not reality. Take it from someone who has felt how terrible it is.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I also deeply resent the notion that I am too stupid to understand my own feelings and what I want (as some feel about ws)..... <hr></blockquote>
and
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I am just doing my best to be sure I know my own mind, what more can anyone expect? <hr></blockquote><p>May I respectfully ask why, if you understand your own feelings and what you want, it is taking so long for you to know your own mind? It seems like your W has known what she wants all along.<p>No philosophizing here, snl, just glaring reality. What the WS does to the BS is "so terrible." Promise.<p>Estes
Posted By: Estes49 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 07:35 AM
AGG,<p>You have gotten some very thoughtful responses. You can probably see a repetition of opinion in the replies.<p>After 10 sad months of taking a crash course in
"How to Survive an Affair," I honestly think I do understand the mindset of the WS. From either side of the question, "I don't get it." or "I finally get it.," the issue (in my experience) remains one of a selfish, disrespectful person who cannot muster the courage to do the right thing before people are terribly hurt. No judgment or disrespect to WS intended. No matter the reasons for the selfishness and disrespect, they cannot negate the damage or justify the behavior. <p>The reason that WS behavior is so hard to "get" is that an adulterer's thinking defies conventional morality and respect for others (for whatever reason). It requires a willingness to lie and deceive and to reject widely accepted standards of right and wrong. Most people choose not to live that way, so they don't "get it" until forced by circumstances to understand it. <p>The usefulness of MB lies in the hope that BS learn to make improvements in themselves while avoiding the conclusion that an A automatically means divorce. The best outcome, of course, from the MB point of view, is a recommitment by both spouses to the M with both being more attentive to each others' EN.<p>I hope that patience, introspection, and understanding result in the healing of your marriage.<p>Estes<p>BTW, AGG, I discovered MB while trying to come to grips with the effect that my DIL's A was having on my family. There is wonderful insight here and much help in learning about ourselves and others.<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 03:00 PM
agg....SNL, the BS's already know what they want (to keep the marriage intact), and it is the WS's who fence-sit while they decide what they want. This is the fundamental difference between the two. <p>snl....You have described the different positions, you have not identified the fundamental difference. I say again, there is no fundamental difference, both have exactly the same control and options over their lives. What you are doing (and the bs typically do) is try to define one position as morally, ethically, superior, you can't do that, it is a disrespectful judgement.... Now if somehow the act of fencesitting constrained the bs against their will, you would have a valid point. The bs is acting totally voluntarily....my point is this is human relations, it is the nature of how humans choose when their is conflict, there is always a waiter, and always a fence sitter, makes no difference who is playing what role, it is a system, and requires both to function......you CANNOT have a fence sitter without a waiter....do you understand? Leave all the emotions out of this agg, the bs emotions are no more important that the ws, nor are they morally superior, those are all disrespectful judgements, and if allowed diminish the human value of the ws. There is an absolute equality of power, the bs chooses to participate, and describing chastising the ws for fence sitting is coercive, and manipulative. The bs is placing the marital decision on the ws. You (et al) say no no, the bs has decided, that is misleading. The bs has not decided, they have only said what they want the marriage (and are manouvreing to make that happen), they have not taken responsibility for ending the marriage too, they abdicated that to the ws, who is not ready to decide, so gets accused of sitting on the fence. On this board we have a few bs with ws who have "decided" but the bs is the one with doubts, and not fully committed.....are they also sitting on the fence? Sem and KS were going a few rounds a while back, but no one accused sem of sitting on the fence. We have another poster yesterday whose ws says they are committed, but she is asking for time (and is not surer).... is she sitting on the fence? The point is this is a dance, it is the dance of an uncommitted marriage and makes no difference who is on the fence, nor is being on the fence a bad thing, it is a human thing.....the power is equal (to leave or stay) for both, and I find little merit in the bs lament about fence-sitting.....what I am curious about is why the bs don't take action and end the marriage.....it is rude to say you want the marriage and then chastise the fence-sitter for continuing to contemplate your request.....ya know? You choose your own agony, if you can't stand the wait, end the marriage.... correct?<p>DISCLAIMER.....Yes, I know people have all these awful feelings, so do I...that is not the point, the logic is irrefutable, and IMO keeping ones head buried in the emotional sand is not helpful. I as a ws find my w complaints about this issue highly manipulative, and push me away...something you bs might keep in mind. I find her thinly disguised notion that her feelings are more important than mine very discouraging, and the notion I am a defective human being cause I am not happy with her rendition of how I should live and feel disturbing. Personally I find many of the bs here very judgemental, and is not to surprising to me their spouses wandered.<p>agg..I am not trying to argue as to who is a "better" person, or who is the victim, etc. All I am curious about in this thread is why so many WS's blame the BS's for wanting to save their marriages while they (the WS's) want the option of being "confused" and "undecided".<p>snl...I am not so sure anyone is blaming the bs (at least no more than the bs is blaming the ws for fencesitting)...it is more a venting of frustratrion, cause we all want stability in our lives. The bs has "made" their decision, now they don't want to wait for the ws to make it, the same thing we all do when we are the "first" in making a choice and must now wait for others. Nobody wants the option of being confused and undecided, is just life, you ARE condfused and undecided, and simply are being honest about it.<p>
[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 05:10 PM
With some trepidation I continue this estes, I find you a thoughtful person who thinks about this stuff too, even if we may be on different sides of understanding how life works, and I need polite input (whether agree or not) as I try to figure out my life...anyways<p>estes... The bs can end it any time they choose, by plan b/d, just like the ws can end it anytime by reconcilliatio(with protection)/or divorce. Frankly I see no functional difference in the 2 positions, each is voluntary and one cannot exist without the other....why is this a big deal? Correct me if I am missing something here, <p>estes.. The reality is that there is a huge difference. To me the big deal is that the BS is in the position that he/she is in because of a betrayal of intimate trust by the WS. <p>snl...I think what I am trying to say estes is the betrayal makes no difference, it is what people do, married or not, we (humans) do not formally give notice and go from one person to another, there is usually overlap. The primary reason relationships end (of all kinds) is one party thinks they will be better with someone else, and most often that is triggerd by interaction with op...would you agree? To me, complaining about this, or making a big deal out of it is pointless, it is what humans do, but I am a rational person, my primary worldview is reality based, not wishful thinking based, I know, I have always known, I cannot be sure of anyone, so I don't expect to be....it puzzles me that others try to live with that expectation...live with it to the point they claim they are destroyed when the inevitable (statisitically speaking) happens. Interestingly you have exactly these same emotions and complaints when non-married long-term relationships fail. I broke up with my wife while we were dating (after we had talked and planned marriage), you would have thought the world was ending, she threatened suicide, make vows to "change", all kinds of promises, etc. etc.....unfortunately I believed her and married her (felt guilty, and like I owed her)...she changed nothing.<p>estes...Given the choice, BS would never choose to be in this position. <p>snl...And a ws would? Baloney, I would RATHER be a bs, being a ws is a hell in itself. But there is no purpose served in beating myself up, feeling guilty and unworthy, I am a good person, I know why this happened, it will not happen again (a life lesson), and though it was my choice, it most assuredly was nurtured by a highly dysfunctional marriage, and an emotionally neglectful/distant spouse.<p>estes...The WS did choose for things to be this way, because he/she could have ended the marriage at any time.<p>snl...And so could the bs. Why doesn't the bs recognize the crappy marriage and end it too. My w tortured me for years with how inadequate and useless I was, and how she couldn't wait to divorce me...why didn't she just do it? I think little purpose is served by designating someone as the "responsible" party who should have ended the marriage before someone got hurt. This BS fog, and it is a lot of crap, human beings are not that good at relationships, they are very messy things, and people get hurt all the time. It is a bit smug and self-serving in my ws opinion for bs to assume the mantle of woe is me, plenty of ws were in pretty serious woe also at the hands of the poor betrayed bs. I personally don't think an affair means much of anything at all, in the context of all the marital "stuff" that may have proceeded it (obviously can vary, some bs are pretty much innocent and just made the mistake to marry a sociopathic personality). An affair is just a wake-up call, albeit a harsh one, but nothing worth losing your sanity or life over, the bs will survive, just fine, if they want to.... <p>esres...All they have to do is file. The BS can't stop them. To say that the BS position is voluntary is to liken their situation to that of a grievously wounded person who voluntarily chooses to struggle to stay alive or who voluntarily chooses to die. <p>snl...More inappropriate imagery. The bs is not wounded, is not injured, is just facing the fact another human beings actions are not what they would like. Emotions are real, you feel a kind of "pain" (I know been there, done that, and I am not going to get into a my pain is worse than your pain argument, pain is pain, makes no difference where it came from), the pain is primarily about fear, and safety, your life is disrupted, and humans experience that as anxiety, grief etc, all very normal stuff. Why should the bs stay estes? They can file too, but they choose not too, therefore they accept the situation voluntarily....so it is a bit hypocritical to then complain about the ws not taking action....you know they haven't taken action...right?<p>estes...The WS's voluntary position is likened to someone who assaults another then voluntarily chooses to try to patch that person up or to kill him. Functional difference or not, these is a huge moral difference.<p>snl...At least you understand there is no functional difference, and that is all that counts. Morality is in the eye of the beholder, and there will never be consensus on it, but surely you don't think bs are pure and innocent? So now what, we argue whose misbehaviour is worse? To what end, to what standard, and what do we do with it? This is reality estes, this is what people do in relationships, every effort by a bs to gain "position" over the ws is about manipulation, and trying to get their selfish desire, the marriage they want to that person. In the majority of the rhetoric I read here, there is no concern whatsoever for whether the marriage is good for the ws, the focus is on getting them back into it anyway they can, we know that, and we resist the manipulation, because that is what humans do, none of us like to be manipulated. IMO more marriages would be restored if an affair meant instant divorce, and the people could not remarry for at least one year. That clarifies the relationship in no uncertain terms and sets both people free form all this posturing, hurt feelings, fence sitting et al ad nauseum....no more game playing, people date or they don't and remarry or they don't. There is something um......... disquieting about the pressure placed on a ws to stay married, let em go, they will be back (and you will accept them) if they are worthy.<p>
... a way for a bs (and that point of bias) to diminish the efforts of the ws to resolve the marriage <p>estes...What about the WS having the courage to make the decision BEFORE adding insult to injury by prolonging the announcement of how he/she intends to "resolve" (what a deceptively benign sounding euphemism) the marriage?<p>snl....Let me add that I am not defending fencesitting, I am simply explaining the psychological realites. Just like a bs can be a clingy needy individual who wants the marriage for their benefit, so can a ws be a user, who if allowed will try to be a cake eater. I think both parties have obligations, and the fence sitter darn well better be honestly working to a goal of making a decision, oft times they are not, and should be properly chastised for it. But if so, a bs has the responsibility too (as a member of this dysfunctional union) to take action, and file for divorce too, cause this is not how marriage should work....right? If not, why does the bs not have an obligation to end a dysfunctional marriage? But of course they do, usually, in their own time, when they get off their own fence, a different fence, but then a fence is a fence isn't it.<p>(snl)the bs clings and tries to keep the marriage going, the ws fencesits and tries to end the marriage <p>estes...This is an equality? "tries to keep the marriage going" = "tries to end the marriage"?<p>snl...Absolutely. The equality is one of choice. The bs is choosing to try and make it work. The ws may also choose, or they may not, that the bs has chosen and is now waiting places no obligation on the ws to decide now or ever, any more than the bs had to decide now or ever. The thinkly veiled powerplay here is that the ws should accomodate the bs need, their is no need to accomodate the bs at all....IMO the only requirement for either party is to be honest, and civil. I told my wife after discovery, when she insisted on a committment, I was not going to make one until I was sure what I wanted, that it had to be about me, not her, and the same for her, anything else would not work, and be a dishonest base for the marriage. That she wants the marriage is irrelevant, and cannot impact me at all, else I am just being manipulated, or avoiding conflict. If she wants my honest answer, then she has to wait for it....or course that may mean she assesses I am not marriage material, or am being dishonest, or simply is just unwilling to wait any longer, and withdraws her committment, maybe forever, that is the risk I take. It is very equal estes, both spouses have total control over THEIR choice, and no control over the others choice. NEITHER can choose the marriage, cause marriage is not a unilateral choice, it is the outcome of a mutual choice. The bs/fencesitting argument seeks to make it a bs choice, and the ws is thwarting it, that is deceptive, the marriage has not happened yet, the bs cannot choose it, they can only choose to wait and see what happens.<p>estres...What is this about "tries" to end the marriage. You do or you don't. There is nothing the BS can do to prevent it. <p>snl...This more phoney bs arguments. People are not machines, (as the bs point out so often re feelings), a ws (or anyone in a marriage) does not just wake up one day, throw a switch and voila divorced. Relationships come apart very messily, usually, it just seems to be how humans do things, and hold ws to a higher standard, then judgeing them is grossly unfair. Tries to end, means trying to be sure it should end, ending it fairly, ending it amicably, these things take effort, and the bs usually is not very cooperative....this often draws out the process, sometimes for years with false recoveries, and such. If 2 people would just look at each other, agree this is not going to work, accept they will be unhappy for awhile (normal) amicably reach all the necessary agreements, and peacefully go their seperate ways, divorce would be a lot less traumatic....but as we all know, that is not what happens, people do not generally let someone go without a lot of turmoil, anger, maniopulation, I really do think humans have a dark side and want to own each other in some ways (that is what vows are all about....you PROMISED, you OWE me, a heck of a way to love someone don't ya think?).<p>estes... IMO, the WS avoids making a decision because he/she hasn't figured out the action that would benefit him/her the most.<p>snl...And a bs doesn't act the same way? Don't they want the marriage cause that benefits him/her the most? and those bs who file for divorce, aren't they doing what is best for them....come on estes, your bias shows all through this, you default to the bs position, and make that the focus on what is right or wrong....all this bs/ws is silly, people are people, and both ws and bs act excactly the same way, each does what they think is best for them. So the "debate" will go on forever, and people will never "understand" each other. That is why I appear insensitive sometimes, this cannot be worked out emotionally....it is a mental health issue, the only decision to reach is are two people good for each other, and if no, what to do about it. <p>
(snl).I don't want to appear heartless here to a board populated by bs, and the pain of a relationship ending, but in the final analysis, we all choose our poison, so what purpose is served crying about being a victim? <p>estes..I reject the generalization that we all choose our own poison. What does that mean? If you are saying, "Don't complain about what you allow to happen." then I agree. If you are saying the BS chose to be betrayed, no way!<p>snl...Yes the bs accepted the possibility of betrayal, as do we all, if we marry someone. It comes with the territory. You want absolute gaurantees? Don't marry. Again estes, I deal in reality, I knew when I married I was investing enormous life assets with no gaurantees, how about you? So while that does not mean one will not experience pain, it does mean one cannot claim they didn't know they might be betrayed, in that sense, it is not a surprise. Likewise every time I get in my car, I know I may never come home, some drunk, or inattentive, or unskilled, or angry, or whatever driver may kill me, but I accept the risk, and if it happens I am not gonna lose any sleep over it...ya know? Relationships end, you try to be as responsible as you can about it, but they do end, and oft times not in a "happy" way...so what do we do about it ested? Crucify the ws...why? To what end? Is just life, is far better to learn from the experience then to be destroyed by it methinks, and that is all a matter of attitude.<p>estes...Well, snl, the thing that makes me sick - and I really do mean the cramp in the stomach, gut-wrenching nausea feeling - is that your statement makes me relive how absolutely terrible it HAS BEEN/STILL IS for my family to go through just such a thing. <p>snl...ok, I know, but that is a specific circumstance, does not even always apply (people are not always unhappy at all when a spouse wants a divorce, some divorces are very amicable, and have minimal emotional discomfort...right?), and I was making a general statement about reality, it is not terrible, cause we do go on, and most often have better lives, so where is the terrible part? In reality, not emotionally?<p>estes...To hear someone proclaim the opinion that "..it is not so terrible" to a family for whom it most definitely IS terrible opens emotional wounds that are very real. <p>snl...So we just all go about validating that ones life is over, you are forever damaged, will never recover? How is that helpful? And I made it clear, when someone is hurting and one is being sympathetic, this is NOT the time to say such things, but never should you validate someones notion they will not recover either...so I would never agree it is terrible, I would only acknowledge they "feel" terrible....do you really disagree with this estes, or am I triggering your own emotional responses to your circumstances, and you are bringing them into this pragmatic discussion? Do you have trouble seperateing the real from the emotional? (we all do, but discipline can allow us to be objective about emotional issues). There is no real arguyment estes, it is not terrible, life goes on, the feeling feel terrible, but so do lots of feelings. I have no doubt in my mind we could find someone who "feels" absolutely terrible about some event in their life, and you would note it is not really terrible for them, that is the nature of feelings, they are often at odds with reality.<p>estes...It shows an absolute lack of understanding of, or refusal to accept, reality. I take back my statement about your telling me that you really don't believe that telling someone you do not want to be married to them is not so terrible. I realize that you DO believe it. snl, your belief is not reality. Take it from someone who has felt how terrible it is.<p>snl....Hmmm.... ok, what is the alternative estes, not telling someone you don't want to be married to them, and concealing that for a lifetime.....you tell me, which would you prefer? The issue is radical honesty, and it is never terrible, it is how we should live....you disagree?<p>In my world, the worst thing someone good do to me is not tell me they do not want to be married to me, that would be what is terrible, cause they concealed the truth from me, and made a lie of my life. Telling someone you do not want to be married to them hurts, I don't deny that, and how you tell them may hurt more one way than another (although I spect it really makes little differenct if you tell em by way of an affair, or just file divorce papers, or take em to lunch and tell em as nice as you can you no longer want to be married.....do you really think the pain is gonna be much different no matter how this happens estes?). You tell me estes, how do you tell someone you no longer want to be married to them without it being "terrible"..... so if it always is terrible, then it becomes part of life, part of being human, so why treat it as something horrible? The only way to eliminate it is to eliminate relationships, not take the risk. The only way to avoid a traffic accident is never drive, is nonsensical estes.<p>(snl)...I also deeply resent the notion that I am too stupid to understand my own feelings and what I want (as some feel about ws)..... <p>I am just doing my best to be sure I know my own mind, what more can anyone expect? <p>estes...May I respectfully ask why, if you understand your own feelings and what you want, it is taking so long for you to know your own mind? <p>snl...So long? It took almost 30 years to get to this point, how long should it take me to try and be sure I understand all of this? The issue is not really time, it is intent, am I doing the work, or not? And the answer is, yes I am, and it will take as long as it takes, what more can I say? Shouldn't I do what I think best, or should I do what you, or MB, or my wife, or whoever tells me I should? And when I get chastised for taking to long, I wonder by what right does anyone have to tell me how long I should take. Is their a rule somewhere about this I am breaking estes? <p>estes...It seems like your W has known what she wants all along.<p>snl...My wife has spent our entire married life telling me regularly she wanted a divorce, needless to say her credibility with me is nil. The fact that she blows all that off as just being upset with me and now (only after I focus on someone else) has she realized how much she loves me, is a bunch of bullshi*t. I don't believe her at all. I do think she knows what she wants though, and that is security, and I can understand that, don't fault her for it...but that is not a marriage, and I can provide for all her needs as an ex-spouse. I do not dislike her, care about her alot, but we have serious fitting issues, and I stress her alot. Just wondering about all these things makes her LB all over the place, but it is who I am, I wonder, and think, and ponder....if she doesn't like that about me, if it stresses her, and she wants me to change it (and she does want me to change it) then Jospeh is lost, I cease to be, I become someone else, I don't want to, I like who I am.<p>No philosophizing here, snl, just glaring reality. What the WS does to the BS is "so terrible." Promise.
Posted By: Family Man Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 05:24 PM
Provocative thread...<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You have described the different positions, you have not identified the fundamental difference. I say again, there is no fundamental difference, both have exactly the same control and options over their lives. What you are doing (and the bs typically do) is try to define one position as morally, ethically, superior, you can't do that, it is a disrespectful judgement..<hr></blockquote><p>The ethical element comes from the observation that one partner is misleading the other in a way that "most" would define as .. flawed. The bs is often not given accurate info about the intentions or considerations of the WS. The issue here is not about a disparity of options or control. It is about a hidden agenda; one which is often pursued without the knowledge of the partner. To me, this is where the selfish argument comes into play. The hidden agenda, at the expense of those who claim to care about you, is selfish, is disrespectful and offensive.<p>In fact, the ws often participates in a series of patterns( stonewalling, blaming, defensiveness, lying, lying,distancing, withdrawal) that by definition, will prevent the bs from addressing fundamental issues in a substantive manner. <p>What each partner is attempting to influence, or "control" then, is different. Look at the tools each partner will employ to further their cause. Isn't that indicitave of a particular mindset? How does society in general label these behaviours, the ones that most WS seem to embrace?<p>I appreciate snl's comments, I often "get" something from them, but I think certain critical considerations are minimized or dismissed. <p>Dan<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Family Man ]</p>
Posted By: thinker Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 05:31 PM
Yes SNL sits and sits. I've read his posts, that he's figured it out. Why are you still here, tell us your plan and lets get the ball moving? He states I have been manipulative to him. Yeah I could go into this and that and tell you how he talks to the family. But why, name calling SNL!!!!!! SNL you are not afraid of hurting someone, not afraid of divorce, not afraid of telling your spouse you do not love them, not afraid of telling your spouse you do not want to be married to them, not afraid of doing the right thing, then go for it SNL. Yes the kids will be hurt, but you know, they will get over it in time. Just this morning I said lets quit. He is telling me that I haven't done enough. He feels it is not enough time. Tells me I shouldn't LB, told him he LB just by being on this computer so much. He LB and he says accept it. Why sit here, put this effort to something that is not going to happen. You have MADE UP YOUR MIND, be the strong one and divorce. I've been told that the WS will make things miserable, then the BS can't take it and they file for divorce. If you want me to get the lawyer I guess I will. But we all know you have made up your mind. You are playing a game, not a dance (you have never been one for dancing) (but you like games). Are you willing to knock me off the boardgame or are you just going to give me a tollrope? Until you say okay I am ready now? Why are you waiting, we are not moving along to a future of marriage. Why prolong the agony, why prolong doing things together, why prolong pretending to be husband and wife? You spiritually married your OW & you divorced me with your first sexual encounter with the OW, so lets make it legal? Be strong and do what you feel you need to do.<p>I am under a lot of stress, and this waiting game is making it harder to deal with anything. I just spent the morning helping mom take care of my dad. It was nice she gave me a break, dad had to poop at 5am. She called my brother to help. He was not good at changing diapers when his kids were little. So it challenged him. As it turned out, I fed dad breakfast this morning and we were getting him down to sleep, dad said he had to poop again. Mom and I got him on the pot, I am not that strong from arm injury. My brother walked in and dad was pooping. It took all 3 of us to get the task done. Dad needs to start taking morphine sublingual in am and pm. <p>Yes, thinker is about at the end of my rope. It is time to move on SNL, realize you made a decision a long time ago, and you are just prolonging the inevitable. You don't love me like a wife, only as a mother of our children. You have had the in-love, with your OW and I am not able to give you the in-love, fitting, bonding, one-flesh, sexual satisfaciton you need. You will find another to fulfill these needs or even go find the OW. Lets get real here, and get our lives in order. This is not healthy for either of us, or our children.<p>This is exactly what gets me upset. SNL protrays that I was the one who was the bad guy in the marriage. He does not explain all that he did. Again, it is the name calling that is so immature for a 51 year old man. Tell me tonight, Joseph, I will be prepared for your statement that you want to tell me you don't want to be married to me. I am not stupid, I will not cry, I will get the lawyer after my fathers destiny of death in 2-4 weeks. Lets get serious with each other and end this hell. You say bulls**t about me. Well, find another woman who would put up with what I have for the last 30 years. You are not a saint SNL, you are who you are and we don't fit. Lets end this misery!!!!!!!!!!<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 06:09 AM
thinker and I are not having a good day, I prefer not to defend myself on-line with her, so you folks will have to make of this as you will. We had sorta agreed to stay out of each others hair, but she has a hard time with not reading my posts. I reslly don't completely understand why she responds to my efforts with anger, but she does, and I am not good with anger, it makes me clam up. In any event, maybe some good comes out of the bewildering (I am sure) contrasts when both people in conflict (as opposed to recovery) post here. I know I read her posts and wonder who the heck she is talking about sometimes, and likewise for her too. I am sorry you are upset thinker, I don't want you to be, and I am not playing games with you, I am just trying as best I can to work this out, be fair to you, and yet honest too.
Posted By: new_beginning Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 06:21 AM
snl and thinker,<p>Why don't you two get off of the computer, put two chairs out, get some coffee (or vodka) and TALK in person?<p>It HURTS to read your pain - BOTH OF YOU.
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 06:31 AM
FM...The ethical element comes from the observation that one partner is misleading the other in a way that "most" would define as .. flawed. The bs is often not given accurate info about the intentions or considerations of the WS. The issue here is not about a disparity of options or control. It is about a hidden agenda; one which is often pursued without the knowledge of the partner. <p>snl...FM, I have no argument with this, but this is not the general case, and is not the definition of fence sitting. This is manipulation, and I would condemn it too. But still the bs has a choice, if they think the ws is not behaving responsibly, they plan b, and or file for divorce, this is not really all that complicated....<p>FM...To me, this is where the selfish argument comes into play. The hidden agenda, at the expense of those who claim to care about you, is selfish, is disrespectful and offensive.<p>snl...Absolutely, so why would a bs put up with it?<p>FM...In fact, the ws often participates in a series of patterns( stonewalling, blaming, defensiveness, lying, lying,distancing, withdrawal) that by definition, will prevent the bs from addressing fundamental issues in a substantive manner. <p>snl...This is a little different, and starts to get into he said she said, and disrespectful judgements, selfish demands etc. No one can tell another how to run their life, and a bs who says ok, I want to save the marriage, must accept (or reject by b/d) that their spouse is going to arrive at their own decision in their own way in their own time....how can it be otherwise? Typically the bs wants stuff to happen now, and with committment, and restorative behaviours....but the ws may not want to jump in, they may want to have time to see what changes the bs does, and whether it makes any real difference to the ws, also the ws may be struggleing with who they are, whether they are codependent, lots of confusing stuff.<p>FM....What each partner is attempting to influence, or "control" then, is different. Look at the tools each partner will employ to further their cause. Isn't that indicitave of a particular mindset? How does society in general label these behaviours, the ones that most WS seem to embrace?<p>snl...Society? What difference does that make? We all do what we want to do, don't you? The societal argument is trotted out to coerce someone into compliance, I think that is wrong. But I do understand the mindset, and we need rules, but not relationship rules, people should only give themself freely to another (least that is how I want to be chosen) never cause of any kind of coercion (family, kids, vows, promises, finances)....ultimately a life partner is only about one thing, do BOTH want to be intimate with each other above all else in life, pretty simple actually.....but when you introduce rules, and contract oriented focus it gets very very messy...now we are keeping score, who is doing what for who....this is not a problem when people are truly bonded.<p>FM...I appreciate snl's comments, I often "get" something from them, but I think certain critical considerations are minimized or dismissed<p>snl...Actually not so much minimized and dismissed, allthough it may seem that way sometime, more of where I am focused at the moment. It is impossible to cover everything in every post, I don't even try..... but I do have one fundamental theme, marriage is not important, people are, and my focus is always on the mental health of the individuals, not saving a marriage just to save it.
Posted By: Wiffle Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 06:37 AM
Just a couple of comments:<p>1. Snl,
You are exactly right in what you have said on this thread. Everyone has choices. In and out of marriage, we make them everyday. The only difference I can see is that in the case of an affair, the WS made a choice that the BS didn't get any input to. They, however, do have the choice of how to respond.
Choose the behavior, choose the consequences.<p>2. SNL,
Given your thoughts on marriage in general - it's failure rate, its tenuous place in society, the statement that it should be a renewable contract every few years (which, btw, it is a renewable contract daily - just get out if you choose). Anyway, given what you have said - do you think you would every marry again if you and Thinker divorce? I guess I am curious as to why? Why not just find your soulmate and make each other happy until one of you changes your mind and then each walk away with no shame, no regrets, no anger, no remorse? Sounds perfectly lovely, doesn't it?<p>3. Snl,
When do you have time to actually do any HVAC work?<p>4. Thinker,
You are not in a position to even think clearly or make coherent sentences given what you are going through with your daddy. Please just take care of yourself. Just you. You are the only one whose behavior you can impact and you are the only one who can impact your future. Take back control of your life. <p>As an aside, I think the 2 of you should switch screen names.
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 06:48 AM
we do talk sheryl, but it usually does not go very well, is like we speak two different languages or something. I have been asking her repeatedly for months to stay away from relationship talks, cause they always go badly, but she can't, or won't.... The thing is, neither of us are bad evil people, we just do not do well married to each other..... if we keep it shallow, is ok, we care, and can function after a fashion, both are responsible and get stuff done (but have very different priorities sometimes)...we lived this way 24 years, growing ever farther apart, cause we do not share ourselves (fit very well), she feels like my mother (looking after me), and I feel like her father, protecting her, looking out for her....we are not, have never been intimate partners, never works, so we stay distant, is how we survived, and got kids raised. I don't know why, and that is what we are trying to work out, figure out, but it has to do with fit, we clash at too many levels...so what does one do? Just make it work? Then one has to ask the question why? I know it is painful to witness, it is painful to experience too, but this has to be worked out before we can go any further, we have gone as far as we can just "doing it". What do you do when 2 decent people should not have married each other, but did, care about each other, but never connected, may never connect...... Part of the trouble goes all the way back to dating, we became exclusive very young, and with very little relationship experience, and now are paying the price of poor decisions. We had a very troubled dating relationship, and never should have married till it was worked out, but we didn't have the tools, or knowledge of how screwed up we were. We have avoided dealing with the fundamental issues all our married lives, now we can't avoid them, and it is very very difficult.
Posted By: Zorweb Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 06:49 AM
opps<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>
Posted By: Zorweb Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 06:49 AM
opps<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>
Posted By: Zorweb Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 06:49 AM
SNL<p>Your basic take on BS's is downright disrespectful. For the most part BS's just to want know where they really stand. When the WS fence sites who knows what to believe.<p>This is exactly why I believe that Plan A should be for a very short time... a month at most. If the WS cannot recommit to the marriage in that time then it's on to Plan B and then Plan D. There is not reason anyone should be subjected to the disrespectful treatment of a spouse cheating, behind their back or out in the open, and a spouse saying the mean things that are said when they cannot make up their minds.<p>Most WS do not just come forward and tell the BS that they want out of the marriage. Instead they leave it to the BS to decipher their intent. And then the WSā€™s, like you, have the audacity to put the BS down. But that is what it is all about anyway is it not? The WS making themselves feel superior at the expense of the BS? Why do WSā€™s sneak around? Because they are being selfish and want both their spouse and their OP, and anything else they want at the expense of everyone else. All the fancy words the WS can use do not speak as loud at their actions.<p>My feeling is that if the WS does not recommit and realize the pain they have caused then send them on their way. Who needs it?
Posted By: Estes49 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 06:56 AM
snl,<p>I really do appreciate the seriousness of your quandary and your quest for an appropriate solution. However, you seem to be thinking in circles, as evidenced by these quotes. <p>snl: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>..maybe for the first time they are telling you the truth, they really just do not want to be married to you....it is not so terrible <hr></blockquote><p>and<p>snl: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You tell me estes, how do you tell someone you no longer want to be married to them without it being "terrible"..... so if it always is terrible, then it becomes part of life, part of being human, so why treat it as something horrible? <hr></blockquote><p>Something that is not so terrible is terrible?<p>
I empathize with yours and thinker's pain. I wish for you that things were different. I really do.<p>I believe that you have built this wall of words around yourself because you are afraid to make a choice that might prove to be wrong for you. It may be that it is less threatening to philosphize than to take action. <p>There are no quarantees. We think things through (which you certainly have [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) and in good conscience make the best decision we can. I would think that ethical decisions become more vexing for someone who believes that morality is relative, somewhat like trying to anchor your ship on a substrate that keeps shifting. But in the end, you do the best you can. I sincerely believe that you want to do that.<p>Wishing you peace of mind in your decision.
Estes<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 07:03 PM
z...Your basic take on BS's is downright disrespectful. For the most part BS's just want know where they really stand. When the WS fence sites who knows what to believe.<p>snl...Of course, and don't I regularly harp on radical honesty? In fact that is exactly what I do here, and with thinker....does anyone have the slightest doubt where I stand? But does that mean I have to move to someone elses agenda, time frame, or I am a terrible fence sitter? <p>z...This is exactly why I believe that Plan A should be for a very short time... a month at most. If the WS cannot recommit to the marriage in that time then it's on to Plan B and then Plan D. There is not reason anyone should be subjected to the disrecpectful treatment of a spouse cheating, behind their back or out in the open, and a spouse saying the mean things that are said when they cannot make up their minds.<p>snl....???????? You just stated my position, seems we agree, not sure why you find my observations re choices disrespectful. And I could check, but I don't think I said fence sitting includes cheating behind the bs back.
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 07:22 PM
estes... you seem to be thinking in circles, as evidenced by these quotes. <p>snl: ..maybe for the first time they are telling you the truth, they really just do not want to be married to you....it is not so terrible <p>and<p>You tell me estes, how do you tell someone you no longer want to be married to them without it being "terrible"..... so if it always is terrible, then it becomes part of life, part of being human, so why treat it as something horrible? <p>Something that is not so terrible is terrible?<p>snl...Hmm, may have made my point a little obtuse. I was trying to get you to realize that if something is always so, it is not special. If the choice is between never telling the truth, because it will be "terrible" that is the greater injury. If you must tell the truth, it is not really terrible it is just the truth, and causes no permanent harm, only temporary discomfort, and that is part of life, so no justification to make it a special circumstance, there is nothing we can do to prevent it anyways, so why is it a concern? Does that make any more sense?<p>estes...I empathize with yours and thinker's pain. I wish for you that things were different. I really do.<p>snl...I know, me too.<p>estes....I believe that you have built this wall of words around yourself because you are afraid to make a choice that might prove to be wrong for you. It may be that it is less threatening to philosphize than to take action. <p>snl...Is a potential risk I am aware of, we can all take our coping mechanisms and use them to confound or paralyze us. I evaluate myself all the time (and subject myself to peer review here) to avoid that trap (hopefully). And of course, talking is less threatening than action [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] but I have no intention of doing this "forever" (if such a thing were possible). I THOROUGHLY research stuff (when I need too), and I do act sometimes very slowly, but I do so cause I do not like to retrace, and I rarely look back. It took me about 2 years (out of the 5 we dated) to accept I had to marry thinker, and I have never looked back, despite knowing fairly soon it was the wrong decision, for the wrong reasons. Instead I tried to make the best of it. Whether I stay or go (unless thinker makes some other choice on her own) I do not intend to look back and wonder....that means I have to be sure, and that takes time, this is difficult stuff.<p>estes...There are no quarantees. We think things through (which you certainly have ) and in good conscience make the best decision we can. I would think that ethical decisions become more vexing for someone who believes that morality is relative, somewhat like trying to anchor your ship on a substrate that keeps shifting. But in the end, you do the best you can. I sincerely believe that you want to do that.<p>snl...Thank-you, I am trying to do the best thing, and it hurts when people (including thinker) accuse me of deception etc. If thinker and I recover, I need to be able to look her in the eye, and with a clear conscience tell her I want to be married to her more than anything in life.... not that I settled for her cause she was willing to play nice with me, and we just make the best of things, and care for each other....or that I couldn't stand the pressure of making her unhappy, and being thought ill of by family and community....it is a heck of a place to be, adrift, confused, lonely, scared, guilty, no place to hide.....the only salvation is truth, radical honesty, and I thank God MB gave me that, I would not have survived without it.<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>
Posted By: Zorweb Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 07:25 PM
snl,<p>You may note that I said that fence sitting included cheating behind the BS's back AND RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSE. Since you left that last part out I assume you agree that fense sitting includes blatant adultry. <p>The reason I feel that you make disrespectful judgements about BS's is that it seems that any attempt on the part of the BS to save their marriage and/or to figure out where they stand is taken by you as an attempt to manipute the BS. <p>One thing I have often wondered is what your arguments would be like if you were the BS. I wish that we could do alternate reality studies.. like in this reality, reality A, you are the WS. In another reality, reality B, you could be the BS and thinker would behave in the manner you do. <p>Then and only then could we see what the reality of your convictions are.<p>Just a thought,
Posted By: Wiffle Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 07:30 PM
Well, I continue to get ignored. I guess my reponse (my choice) to that reality is to stop posting to any thread concerning SNL. But, in this case, my post got buried behind a threepeat of zorweb's and then we move on to another page and no one ever answers Wiffle.<p>SNL this has happened on approximately 10-15 threads. What is it you find so threatening about my responses?
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 07:35 PM
wiffle, I read all your posts, and have nothing but respect for you, nor do I purposely ignore anyone per se. Sometimes I just respond with stuff that kinda fits everyone, or I may even inadvertently lose track, SORRY [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I appreciate your comments, and let me recheck your post, I was thinking someone had asked me something I forgot to answer, and it was probably you.
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 07:45 PM
wiffle...1. The only difference I can see is that in the case of an affair, the WS made a choice that the BS didn't get any input to. They, however, do have the choice of how to respond.
Choose the behavior, choose the consequences.<p>snl...I agree with consequences, and I was aware there would be some. I was very naive though re those consequences, and would not make the same choice again....but it is also true I would not let a marriage get so disconnected either, without fixing or ending it. I am not overly concerned that the bs had no choice in the affair, that is why it is an affair, it is just what humans do (emotionally), I really think focusing on that an affair happened is a waste of effort, it is why that is important. But I agree it was an injury to the bs, so IMO the ws incurs certain obligations re healing the bs, and must act responsibily if they want you too (ie taking time to tell the truth, and look at the marriage).<p>wiffle...2. SNL,Given your thoughts on marriage in general - it's failure rate, its tenuous place in society, the statement that it should be a renewable contract every few years (which, btw, it is a renewable contract daily - just get out if you choose). Anyway, given what you have said - do you think you would every marry again if you and Thinker divorce? <p>snl...yes..... The comments about renewal are pure brainstorming re human behaviour, for purpose of discussion.<p>wiffle...I guess I am curious as to why? Why not just find your soulmate and make each other happy until one of you changes your mind and then each walk away with no shame, no regrets, no anger, no remorse? Sounds perfectly lovely, doesn't it?<p>snl...I don't think marriages that are between fitted people ever end, or have any real difficulties in that sense....but yes, the moment someone could not tell me honestly they want to be with me more than anything in life, I would want them to go, I do not want to be settled for.<p>wiffle...3. Snl,When do you have time to actually do any HVAC work?<p>snl....That bad huh? I work 40-60 hrs a week at the business.<p>wiffle...As an aside, I think the 2 of you should switch screen names.<p>snl...Nah, they fit, but I see your point.
Posted By: Wiffle Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 08:04 PM
Thanks for the reply. Sorry I sounded like a shrew in asking for it.
On the Choose the behavior, choose the consequences issue, I was actaually referring to the BS's behavior and consequences. They are the ones who try to DRAG things out and force square pegs and when it ain't all perfect they still get to be the victim.
My point is in most cases we are the victims of ourselves. If it causes you pain -stop it. But, most keep on and say, "oh, but I really love him )(her) and if they could just see this they would love me too." News flash - it doesn't work.
The BS is victim once. But they are the ones who continue to victimize. And for what purpose?<p>P.S. If you do HVAC work 60 hours a week, when do you sleep? Because I know how much you are posting here and outside of that you have to be engaged in some serious introspection. There are only so many hours in a day
Posted By: Resilient Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 08:11 PM
SnL,<p>Before you write about knowing to what "Degree" a BS feels pain of the betrayal of an A by the WS, you would need to experience it first hand. Just as we here (BS) should not presume to know to what degree the WS feels pain of their adultery.<p>Saying BS's pain over an A is "Optional" (voluntary) may be true, as it is an emotion and not physical. However, we could then also say the emotional pain of a death of a loved one is also "optional" (voluntary) ... thing is, WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS. Emotions make us human.<p>Have you ever grieved over the death of a loved one, SnL. If you did, WHY did you, it was optional(voluntary).<p>To me your recents posts are geared at trying to minimize your guilt of what BS (specifically Thinker) is feeling. How dare she feel anything, because after all, it's ALL optional. How dare she act human.<p>I say before anyone touts to know what another is "feeling" they would need a frame of reference, and SnL, from what I understand, you have no frame of reference when it comes to feeling what a BS feels.<p>Jo<p>Note: Yes SnL, I see disrespectful judgments in my words, yet I noticed you have quite a few in yours as well.<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>
Posted By: Resilient Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 08:32 PM
SnL wrote:<p>I broke up with my wife while we were dating (after we had talked and planned marriage), you would have thought the world was ending, she threatened suicide, make vows to "change", all kinds of promises, etc. etc.....unfortunately I believed her and married her (felt guilty, and like I owed her)...she changed nothing.<p>This is an interesting statement. How I read this statement is you are not responsible for your decision for marrying Thinker. No accountability. You were coerced and tricked.<p>If we're going to talk about what's "Voluntary" and "Optional" SnL, are you saying that you marring Thinker was NOT voluntary or optional. Are you saying it was not your decision?<p>An adult making decisions is all about responsibility of that decision. We should live with OUR decisions and should not blame others for making them. <p>Jo<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>
Posted By: new_beginning Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 09:11 PM
Thanks for responding to my question, snl. <p>Listen, having been on both sides of this (former WS and BS) I certainly DO know how it feels -- and it's crap-on-a-stick no matter which side you're on... and for a repentent WS, as I was, it was tantimount to dying (and murder). There are no winners in this game (for lack of a better word).<p>All I can say is that *I think* snl and thinker need to care for eachother through this crisis with her father, and then they should stop the insanity and pain and either work as a team or divorce. <p>I completely and utterly feel for both of you -- truly. <p>Please, make 2002 the year you make a decision!<p>Best wishes to you both...
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 09:15 PM
no jo, I do not blame thinker for anything, was my own choice, and I didn't look back, I think I said that too (and have many times), I do not think I could ever consider myself a victim for any reason, I am not put together that way. Makes no difference what happens in my life, in one way or another it was my choice. I firmly believe feeling like a victim is a choice, one we can make or not make.<p>yes no one can know how anyone feels about anything 100%, not even a bs for another bs, everyones life is different. But we have to be able to talk about this stuff somehow don't we? Shouldn't we just allow that no one knows for sure? But I think it is safe to say everyone in a failed marriage is hurting pretty good, and plenty of ws feel pretty betrayed by actions of their spouses, rejection comes in more than one flavor.... You can bet early in our marriage I felt plenty betrayed when my w made it clear in no uncertain terms I was not first in her life, her dad was.....try living with that for 20+ years, I'd rather she had an affair, and I could have ended stuff, how do you compete with dad?
Posted By: thinker Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 10:34 PM
SNL talks about Radical Honesty and wants it. Why doesn't he be honest with everyone here, and me his wife? Why does he sit on the post and present himself to you as a person working on the marriage, when the Harleys are at a loss? Radical HOnesty is all the time, not just when you want to be Radically Honest.<p>SNL agrees to (z) that plan A should be for a short time. Well he just told me today, we haven't done it long enough yet. Yet he agrees with z on shortness of time, and tells me I should do it longer. We've been in this since Feb. 2001. Because I told him today, that I want to plan B. Also, told him he is not happy here, why don't we just quit and divorce. But yet he says do what you want, and he doesn't want to do the divorce thing. I said you go get the lawyer, he said he is not ready. Do you see where I am going crazy with his responses and attitudes. He agrees with some of you on the board, but tells me differently. Am I just a chalk board full of dust, he blows and I disappear. <p>SNL you state that telling someone something that is terrible is not that terrible, but it is the truth. Why don't you get your courage up and tell me the truth and quit sitting on the fence? I am a human with much hurt in my heart right now. I am losing the first love of my life, my father, and watching him deteriate before my eyes everyday is painful. Being here in a house where my at one time H is, it seems that he doesn't want to be here for a marriage, is not committed to a marriage, is not working with counseling 100% - we just wait for whatever moves SNL makes
and SNL the WS dictates every move, every breath, every word, without any remorse or guilt. Yes I do feel you think your sexual and emotional affair with the OW is justified. You never criticize her on the board, but look what you write about me. You don't hate me, but you sure don't love me. <p>Zorweb - I too would like to see what SNL would think if I had an affair. The statement SNL made that there is only one affair to a marriage. Why does he get to have all the fun and I have to stay with only one man ever in my life? He with this AFFAIR, has had 4 sexual encounters. And he still has feelings for the OW who has had for sure, 2 sexual affairs in her marriage, and my detective said there is a possibility of 1 more. The OW stated to me yes to the 3 1/2 bankrupcys they have had, (detective found) but when I said there is another affair, she said no. Of course she told me she didn't have sex with my H, FAT LIE.<p>And for the upcoming month, life here is going to be pure h*ll. Losing my father is going to be difficult, he is the first man I have ever loved. The man who looked after me when I was young, showed me and my brother how to ride a bike (I am a twin). My father showed us how to fish, took us on family vacations, showed us his family, baseball games, he is the first male in my life from day 1 of my life. God gave me this man to help me grow into the woman I am. I am sorry SNL didn't have a father to be by his side everyday of his growing life. He is hurt by this, but he should be glad that I had a father and mother to be by myside always. SNL is like a child locked in this room and doesn't know the secret word to get out. I wish I knew the word, but he is reluctant to tell me. The OW knew the secret word, and H is so sad to have lost the soulmate that new the secret word. <p>There is so much all of you don't know about our situation. It would take probably a year of writing on the boards to tell you all. But SNL does not give the total facts. <p>Yes, H and I both work on HVAC business. I was asked the same question a few months ago about when does SNL find the time to do the HVAC work with all the time he spends on the board? The initial work gets done, but the follow ups get less attention. Therefore we have some customers that call back to see if the part is in. I just tell them he is bad at paperwork. Things around here slide, some get done, some don't. Like changing the filter on our furnace. Not done yet, hopefully soon. We have 4 dogs, 2 big ones, 2 cats, 2 guinea pigs, 1 parrot, and 6 human heads of hair, with 2 girls with long hair. Our house is dusty, clutter everywhere, so a lot of the areas haven't been vacuumed and dusted in who knows when. SNL decides what he wants to do and what not to do. <p>Estes 49 - I feel like you do. That sitting on the fence pushes the BS to finally give up. Because WS says I don't know. I truly believe SNL wants me to be the one to start the divorce. So if that is it, then I guess I will have to. I will talk to Steve about this more. <p>I agree the two of us should switch names. I am very sad and lonely, and he is the thinker. Maybe we should, but would probably mess up everyone.<p>On SNL renewal contract in marriage every 5 years. I hated when he said this. What about the children? No one would have kids, cause the fact is that 5 years from now the little ones would have a split family. I think SNL stating this, he is not marriage material. He should state this to the next woman he wants to marry. I would love to see her reaction. He should just live with the person, so that when things get tough they split and leave without divorce. I wish I knew this before marriage with him. I would of said for sure forget it. I didn't coerce him into marriage. He did it on his own, in fact when he asked me to marry him the first time, I said no, needed time. I didn't make him marry me, like he states, it was his decision, and now he is sorry and seems to make it my fault. If everything in this marriage is my fault, he has no reason to not want to get out. In fact, he needs to get out now, while his head is above the water. He stated here, that he will remarry, good luck SNL, maybe if she talked to me she would consider the facts.<p>When he states that 2 people who fit each other will have a happy marriage. He is in a confused state. The counselors said, no marriage will be total visions of wonderful love. Every marriage has it failings, and every marriage needs to be worked on. See, he had this wonderful lustful woman that gave him what he wanted and took much money from us. He has had the experience of having this great woman, and now he compares everything to her. As it turns out, she is not that great, in fact, it has been stated by the OW counselor that she is mentally not right, and couseling with us, this woman used my H. She also used the other man she had sexual affair with. She knew when SNL came to her state with our family, that she was going to get him in bed. Why did she say when SNL asked to take her to dinner and a movie that she said NO, I want to go to a hotel? Her comment was somebody will see me. Dah, it doesn't take a scientist to consider this one, shows where her mental capacity is. The people that I talked to said she knew what she wanted. Because she didn't have great sex with her H, she was going to have it with my H. Just like the other man, he gave her great sex, and no one pushed her into the back room of a church and took her clothes off. She went willing and wanting. Just the same with my H, no one pushed her in the hotel, no one took her panties and bra off, she took them of willing. <p>Yes, I am hurting, wish SNL would get it over with. With death around the corner with my dad, and this, and dealing with some other issues around here. Dealing with taking SNL to the hospital for possible heart condition 2 days ago. I am a human with a heart that is crying out for love!
Posted By: belldandy Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 10:34 PM
SnL and thinker ...<p>Can I be so bold as to point something out, given your exchange on this board? The two of you are talking *at* each other, not *with* each other. There is no communication going on. It seems like a series of monologues that simply gets deflected off of the other. There seems to me, to be a lot of focus on your respective pain, as though it exists in a conundrum. I don't see too much empathy going on - on either part.<p>I don't know the two of you at all, and I certainly don't have any answers. But I do hope that the two of you are able to learn how to communicate with each other, if nothing else. Regardless if you stay together or blow apart, I feel that you both owe it to each other to make an attempt to really understand where the other is coming from.<p>blessings,<p>belld
Posted By: new_beginning Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/29/01 11:28 PM
**Bumping Up, for belldandy -- her post didn't post!!**
Posted By: Zorweb Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 12:23 AM
Wiffle,<p>RE: I was actually referring to the BS's behavior and consequences. They are the ones who try to DRAG things out and force square pegs and when it ain't all perfect they still get to be the victim. <p>I assume from what you wrote that you are a WS. Please explain to me how the WS is the victim of an affair? This is a good oneā€¦..<p>RE: My point is in most cases we are the victims of ourselves. If it causes you pain -stop it. But, most keep on and say, "oh, but I really love him )(her) and if they could just see this they would love me too." News flash - it doesn't work.
The BS is victim once. But they are the ones who continue to victimize. And for what purpose?<p>What you may not get is that in many cases the WS TELLS THE BS UP FRONT FROM DAY ONE THAT THE AFFAIR WAS BAD BUSINESS AND THAT THEY HAVE ALWAYS LOVED THE BS. It is very often that the WS does not want the marriage to end. While that may not be the case in your story it is the case in many marriages in which affairs happen. Since only about 3% of marriages end when an affair happens, itā€™s a pretty good bet that both the WS and the BS BOTH want the marriage and want it to work. Iā€™ve said it to SNL and Iā€™ll say it to you. It is disrespectful to assume that all BSā€™s are sniveling, pathetic weaklings trying to fit square pegs into round roles. <p>When a WS continues to have the affair, in the open, then the WS is victimizing the BS over, and over and over. So tell me, who is the BS victimizing? You, the poor WS? Get real.<p>One of the major problems with these assumptions of yours and SNLā€™s is that they assume that all BSā€™s behave in the same manner and that all WSā€™s have affairs for the same reason and behave in the same manner. This is just not the case. If my H had waffled for one moment about stopping his affairs and rebuilding our marriage he would have been out of here on his a$$.<p>I am just amazed at how many WSā€™s think they are the injured parties. Poor babiesā€¦ Their BSā€™s donā€™t want them out screwing everything that walks. Instead the BS just wants to know the truth and wants the WS to act with decisiveness.<p>RE: The BS is victim once. But they are the ones who continue to victimize. And for what purpose?<p>nl....???????? You just stated my position, seems we agree, not sure why you find my observations re choices disrespectful. And I could check, but I don't think I said fence sitting includes cheating behind the bs back. <p>
You tell me estes, how do you tell someone you no longer want to be married to them without it being "terrible"..... so if it always is terrible, then it becomes part of life, part of being human, so why treat it as something horrible?
Something that is not so terrible is terrible?
Posted By: AGoodGuy Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 04:26 AM
Well, I stayed away from the computer for a day, and I see that a lot transpired on this thread.<p>Once again I am sitting here scratching my head, as I end up doing every time I start discussions with SNL... Clearly we are not communicating, so let me try it again...<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
agg....SNL, the BS's already know what they want (to keep the marriage intact), and it is the WS's who fence-sit while they decide what they want. This is the fundamental difference between the two. <p>snl....You have described the different positions, you have not identified the fundamental difference. <hr></blockquote><p>The fundamental difference is that the BS has made a choice, and the WS has not made a choice. "Has" vs "has not" are opposites, hence the "fundamental" difference. Are we OK on this point now?<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What you are doing (and the bs typically do) is try to define one position as morally, ethically, superior, you can't do that, it is a disrespectful judgement.... <hr></blockquote><p>Reread my posts; I specifically pointed out that I am not, in this thread, discussing the moral superiority of a BS vs WS (I have my opinion, but that is not my issue in this thread). If you find a place where I called one superior to the other, please point it out, otherwise let's drop this non-issue.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You (et al) say no no, the bs has decided, that is misleading. The bs has not decided, they have only said what they want the marriage ...the logic is irrefutable, and IMO keeping ones head buried in the emotional sand is not helpful<hr></blockquote><p>SNL, I know you said you're having a bad day, so perhaps I shouldn't be digging into your thoughts today, but for someone who claims to find strength in logic, you seem to be really off your mark today. You say your logic is "irrefutable"... But then you say that "the BS has decided, but it is misleading because they haven't decided, they only want the marriage". What the heck are you saying? That the BS "think" that they decided, but that they really didn't? I am really having a hard time understanding your point, much less your supposed logic...<p>BTW, I know I'm saying this for the third time, but the reality is that the BS does not have the freedom of choice that the WS does. Since the BS can't make the WS stay (while the WS can choose to stay or leave), the WS inherently has a choice that the BS does not. The BS can choose to leave, you are right, but that would be cutting off their nose to spite their face, since their choice was to keep the marriage intact, and not to divorce...<p>AGG<p>PS. Thinker, I don't want to be adding any pain to your situation. If this thread is causing you to have unneeded arguments with SNL, please let me know, and I will stop participating in this thread. I know full well what it's like for a BS to be posting on the same thread with their own WS; been there, done that...<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: AGoodGuy ]</p>
Posted By: Zorweb Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 04:39 AM
snl....What you are doing (and the bs typically do) is try to define one position as morally, ethically, superior, you can't do that, it is a disrespectful judgement.... <p>
By definition the person who is the adulterer is morally and ethically wrong. The person who is not the adulterer is on a moral and ethical higher ground. This is not a disrespectful judgment, it is an absolute. <p>Now to rube the WSā€™s face in their adultery IS disrespectful judgment.<p>Is it disrespectful judgment to say that a murderer, rapist, or thief is morally and ethically wrong?
But it would be disrespectful judgment to say that they reason they did their crime is because they are scum, ā€˜bad seedsā€™, drugged up crazies, etc not deserving of living. <p>Since when is it wrong to make a moral judgment that is backed up by moral, legal and religious doctrine? If we, as individuals and society, do not take a stand on certain things then any and everything is ok.<p>If adultery it ok, then so are all other immoral behaviors. In that case SNL please tell me your home address and phone number. I want to come to your house and see if there is anything of value I can take. After all, with that sort of value system, nothing is wrong as long as I benefit from it.
Posted By: Patient1 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 05:43 AM
I have been reading SNL for a very long time. I am under the impression that he likes to come here and debate. It is my opinion that he isn't even making any effort to rebuild his marriage. He doesn't seem to come up with any solutions to his marital problem or personal problems. <p>I'm not sure that this forum is even helping him or if he feels he has even learned anything, here.<p>He feeds off of the debates. This to me is much more his focus, than trying to rebuild his marriage. He spends far too much time focusing on what is wrong. Are there ANY positives? Is there anything good about his marriage, in his opinion?
What exactly (besides debates) does SNL want? What is SNL looking for and what does he expect to get from this forum?<p>I just don't "get it".<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Patient1 ]</p>
Posted By: Resilient Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 06:31 AM
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong> You can bet early in our marriage I felt plenty betrayed when my w made it clear in no uncertain terms I was not first in her life, her dad was.....try living with that for 20+ years, I'd rather she had an affair, and I could have ended stuff, how do you compete with dad?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm very sorry for your pain regarding Dad coming first with Thinker, SnL. I can imagine that hurt terribly.<p>Yet I wonder why the love for her Father would in any way interfere or compete with a marital love. In my mind those two types of loves aren't in the same dimension.<p>I believe a person's capacity for love of many people (i.e., spouse, family, children, friends) is limitless, each within it's appropriate place in our hearts and meeting those people's respective needs depending on the relationship. Because love is not a box, but a stream.<p>SnL, I tend to get a bit upset with you when you, I'm sure unintentionally, disrespect Thinker's mere existence as your W, even from inception (your Marriage Proposal / Wedding).<p>As a BS and former long term W myself, I can imagine it may make Thinker feel she has had no worth in your life from the very beginning and for all those years. I'm sure it's very hurtful for her to read your words.<p>Lv,
Jo<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>
Posted By: Spiro Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 05:32 PM
Thinker,<p> I am so very sorry about your father's illness. You seem to be a very strong person.<p> SNL, I can't thank you enough for your post and replies. I appreciate very much your honesty.<p> My belief is: IF you love someone enough: let them go and IF they come back to you. they're yours and IF they don't, they never were yours to begin with... Isn't that what all this boils down too?<p> I agree with you. I feel like plan a should be very short. Who wants to try to rebuild a marriage,because they were made to feel guilty. I wouldn't want anyone to stay with me because they felt guilty. I agree, let them go... It has always been my feelings that if a person strayed in the first place they had no love for their spouse to begin with. Especially if they did it more than once.
Posted By: Spiro Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 05:47 PM
Oh and by the way, has anyone considered that maybe SNL is trying to help Thinker cope with the crises she is going through?
Posted By: Zorweb Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 05:51 PM
Spiro,<p>SNL says that he is trying to help her. Thinker says that he is not... at least that was the last thing she said. And to many of us who post to both of them it is hard to see that he is being supportive of her. But we are not in thier home so who knows.<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>
Posted By: Spiro Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 07:04 PM
Zoreb,
I just thought that maybe he didnt want to leave her right now because of her father being so sick. But you are right we just don't know.<p> I just can't imagine him walking out the door at this time. For her sake I hope he doesn't.
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 07:25 PM
z...SNL says that he is trying to help her. Thinker says that he is not... at least that was the last thing she said. And to many of us who post to both of them it is hard to see that he is being supportive of her. But we are not in thier home so who knows.<p>snl..I will ask thinker to answer this. One of our big problems (over the years) was whatever I did was never enough, I never measured up. That is part of why you all are confused about us, and why our posts seem at odds, you really don't know thinker at all. Yes I am being supportive about her father, I am not some inhuman syncophant. It would be pointless to "list" or discuss this, I know she needs support, I do not have to be persuaded with to give it, I do so freely (emotionally, and practically). That we have marital difficulties obviously makes her life more difficult at a bad time for her, I cannot help the marital difficulties, nor can I help that she is all over the map emotionally, somedays hating my guts, other days seeming to appreciate my support and presence. I do not ask anything of her now, I tell her to just focus on her father, and I will pick up the slack at home etc. I think if someone asked her a direct question she would agree I am doing stuff, the problem is (as always) is not enough, and not the way she wants it...that may be so, and it may be part of why we cannot really connect, but it does not mean I am heartless, cruel, or hurtful, I am not those things.
Posted By: Resilient Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 07:32 PM
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>but it does not mean I am heartless, cruel, or hurtful, I am not those things.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>SnL,<p>We know you're not any of those things. We know you are a compassionate and caring man. None of this is easy.<p>Jo
Posted By: Estes49 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 08:04 PM
Good morning Everyone,<p>Spiro, I agree about letting go. Aside from the fact that it is impossible to "keep" someone, trying to hang on by emotional manipulation - intentional or otherwise - only makes things worse. (Plan A is not emotional manipulation when correctly done because the changes are made within one's self. Hanging on to the idea of preserving the M isn't either.)<p>thinker, if you are reading, have you steeled yourself for the flood of emotions that will come when you no longer have your father in your life? I do not bring this up to upset you more than you already are. If I am please forgive me. I know that things are so hard now that it's bad enough to go day-by-day much less look into the future. It's just that I have read references to the possibility of improvement in your M when the stress of your father's illness is in the past. I have lost both of my parents so I know from personal experience that you will have months of adjustment to deal with afterwards. What I am trying to say is that you or snl should be prepared for you to have a real challenge to deal with during this trying period. It will be important to be very gentle with each other, more than ever, in the months to come. I'm sorry for your sadness. If you want to talk, I'm here.<p>I attended a wedding last night. After being saddened by my new understanding of, "Will you love him, comfort him, honor and keep him, in sickness and in health; and forsaking all others, be faithful to him as long as you both shall live?," I found some strength in this prayer, "Give them grace, when they hurt each other, to recognize and acknowledge their fault, and seek each other's forgiveness and Yours." I found it interesting that it was assumed that hurts would occur and there was a plan in place to deal with them.<p>I know that not everyone here defines his/her life by premises of faith, but doing so is tremendously important to me.<p>Love,
Estes<p>snl, guess what? I am in total agreement [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] with your reply to The Student in D/D forum re: dating.<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>
Posted By: Zorweb Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 08:18 PM
Spiro,<p>If I recall history, SNLā€™s affair not willing to leave his wife predates thinkerā€™s fathers current illness, Or at least the most serious part of his illness, by several months. <p>SNL,<p>Sorry, donā€™t mean to be talking about you in third person just wanted to fill in some history for Spiro that I think I know.<p>As for your comments SNL, <p>
RE: I think if someone asked her a direct question she would agree I am doing stuff<p>I have asked thinker this type of question directly. If I recall correctly her response you have not been there for her through her fatherā€™s illness.<p>RE: the problem is (as always) is not enough, and not the way she wants it...that may be so, and it may be part of why we cannot really connect<p>To say that no enough can be done for her is something of a disrespectful judgment. The MB concept, and it makes a lot of sense, is that a person needs to find out what their spouse needs and do exactly that. If you try to meet thinkerā€™s needs in a manner that is not what she needs, you will always miss the mark. It does not mean that what you are doing is not enough. It may very well be the wrong thing.<p>Let me give you an example. In my previous marriage, I supported my ex-H and our family while he went to med school and residency. I made sure that we all had a comfortable home, the house was always as clean as I could keep it. I took as good care of myself as I could for a woman working 12-16 hour days who handled everything. I was also always loving and available for SF. It always seemed that I could not do enough for the man. I was doing all I could but nothing was enough. It turns out that although he dumped all of the financial and house hold burdens on me (he announced that Iā€™d be supporting him through med school so I tried to do the best I could.) what he really wanted was a bimbo type wife who fawned all over him and tell him how wonderful he was. When I say bimbo wife I really mean itā€¦ I now realize that the women he dated before me were his real typeā€¦ he a box of photos of them doing stuff in the buff so that he can ā€˜rememberā€™ them even when they are not with him. Well, he ā€˜rememberedā€™ them all through our marriage too. He wanted a wife who makes less then he does so that he could feel like the ā€˜big guyā€™. He also wanted a wife who would leave all decision making up to him.. Later in our marriage he said that only one person (the husband) should make the decisions and the wife should happily live with them. Well I was in a catch 22, I am not a bimbo air headā€¦ never was (well except when I was 20) and never will be. There was no way I could support our life style (the one that he would not give up come hell or high water), be a very successful business woman, call all of the shots at home and at work, and then come home and be an air head the few hours a week that he bothered to come home.<p>If I had realized all of this, I might have quit my job and told him to support us. <p>Today the ā€˜good doctorā€™ is engaged to an airline stewardess who is so impressed that she has snagged a doctor. She is all googly eyed over him. He is happy. I hope it works for them.<p>
You see, if you are handling all the stuff around the house to give thinker a break, and what she wants is someone to hold her while she cries, then you are doing some nice stuff but you are not meeting her needs. Your post sounds like you have not asked her what she needs from you right now. Ask her what she needs, do that, then any thing else you do is just icing on the cake.<p>If you cannot ask her, have her come here and we will do it. I'd give my eye tooth to get the two of you on the same wave length finally.
Posted By: Wiffle Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 08:23 PM
Zorweb,
No, I am not the WS. As I have stated, in my own very troubled marriage an affair is not the problem. I have been married 15 years and have never had any type of inappropriate relationship outside of my marriage. To my knowledge, neither has my husband. That probably makes me "unqualified" to speak to this issue, but I will try to clarify what I meant.<p>I certainly did not mean to imply the WS is the victim of anything but their own choices. I do, however, believe strongly that we all choose our destinies. When I said the BS continues to be a victim I meant they do it to themselves many times. By putting their future, their happiness on another persons decisions. <p>I think people need to do what they need to do to be healthy and whole and many times that means knowing when to end the marriage. I do not mean to paint all BSs with the same brush - every situation is different. But, alot of times the BS wants to hang on to what WAS and they make the misery last longer than it may otherwise.
Posted By: Zorweb Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 08:39 PM
Wiffle,<p>Boy does it look like I misinterpreted what you said. Thanks for the explanation. You may not have experienced infidelity from either vantage point.. .but you do get it. I certainly agree with you. There is a time for everything, including letting go. A person can only continue to hurt us if we continue to let them.

Thanks again
Posted By: cherise Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 10:13 PM
SNL, I have continually stopped myself from responding to the posts you are involved in because of a refusal to paticipate in any discussion involving such apocryphal attitudes as yours. But, this one defies all bounds.
I agree with Resilient. Emotional pain is NOT optional. Only a true phycotic can dish out pain as you do to Thinker and then justify and rationalize it by saying it is HER choice! You continue to show no remorse for the dishonesty and dispair you have caused in the lives of those who CARE for you! Why are you here? Are you looking for justification of your actions, Or are you trying to say that all the evils in your life you were (tricked) into perpetuating!
You seem to think your OW is this great person, well, sorry, but no one here is going to put an angels' cap on a woman who would pull her pants down for a married man. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]
Posted By: cherise Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/30/01 10:21 PM
HARSH, I know, but honest! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 12:22 AM
harsh? I don't mind honesty, and I value all opinions sincerely made, but cherise, I don't really see how your response really was about the stuff being discussed here. Much of it was philosophic and has nothing to do with anyone specifically (including thinker). Further, all I said is what many here say (in a different way), happiness comes from within it is a decision, and everyone applauds that, go figure. If such is true, no one can be "hurt" by what others do to them...correct?
Posted By: Estes49 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 01:16 AM
Butting in here,<p>snl: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Further, all I said is what many here say (in a different way), happiness comes from within it is a decision, and everyone applauds that, go figure. If such is true, no one can be "hurt" by what others do to them...correct? <hr></blockquote><p>Incorrect. It doesn't work that way. Of course, people can be hurt by what others do to them. That is obvious by simple observation. To deny that is to deny realty. <p>The basis for the expression that happiness comes from within is that, once hurt, the person makes a decision to react to the hurt in such a way that they restore a postive outlook toward life. They choose not to focus on the negative. It does not mean that the hurt never occurred.<p>Estes
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 02:04 AM
estes...Butting in here,<p>snl...You are welcome any time.<p>(snl) Further, all I said is what many here say (in a different way), happiness comes from within it is a decision, and everyone applauds that, go figure. If such is true, no one can be "hurt" by what others do to them...correct? <p>estes...Incorrect. It doesn't work that way. Of course, people can be hurt by what others do to them. That is obvious by simple observation. To deny that is to deny realty.<p>snl..I observe the same (and was playing devils advocate)....however, those ( cali, and a few others, can address this more thoroughly) who suggest happiness is a decision have to live with what that implies, that no one can hurt you, can't have it both ways estes. If ALL your happiness comes from within, then you cannot be hurt....if not, then in fact ones spouse (and their behaviour) IS part of your happiness, and therefore you can react to that....correct? <p>estes...The basis for the expression that happiness comes from within is that, once hurt, the person makes a decision to react to the hurt in such a way that they restore a postive outlook toward life. They choose not to focus on the negative. It does not mean that the hurt never occurred.<p>snl...I disagree that is not the basis, nor can it be, cause then is a meaningless concept cause is conditional, we each now get to define when we are hurt...correct? And if I say an affair should not hurt, I am right...if you say it should, you are also right, the whole thing is back to attitude, and personal choice, not a universal principle or concept.....<p>I agree with you though, and I think it is commonsense.....you cannot be married and pretend "emotionally" your spouse does not exist, and you just choose to be happy and honor vows...is nonsensical....ones marital happiness is directly related to how you fit and are treated by your spouse.....so if that does not make you happy, instead of ignoring it, you should leave, that is what the "feeling" of unhappy is telling you, it is a truth (assuming you are of right mind, and being honest about everything). If folks maintain it does not matter cause you can love anyone, and sacrifice yourself to them, cause love and happiness is a decsion, than you cannot say an affair is hurtful, that is a decision to feel hurt..... <p>The fact of the matter is IMO estes, feelings do count, and they count alot, they are another way we um........ interpret the world and our well-being....discounting ones unhappiness, denying it, is not any different than ignoring a pain in your stomach, you will die of the stomach cancer if you don't treat it....and if you do not leave a dysfunctional marital partner, or marriage, you will suffer emotional/psychological and physical injury (unhappy people live shorter lives). That is a truth, it cannot be escaped, there are no free rides in live, and that is why pop psychology (such as just choose to be happy) is dangerous to ones well-being.<p>re your example of restoring a positive outlook when unhappy with marital issues (affairs or otherwise) I agree, and one of the means to do so is end the marriage, that's all I say, and even most seem to agree with it, I really don't know why I get so much flack...if you are not happy, you end the marriage, you don't decide to just bury your feelings and make the best of it....right?<p>I am curious estes, most of the philosophic time I am discussing the nature of love and marriage, and seem to find myself defending the notion of leaveing....yet most agree you should not stay married if you are not happy, this confuses me. It feels like people are saying you must stay married, yet you should be happy, so if you aren't happy what do you do? Tell me estes, do you think people should remain married if they cannot honestly say (radically honest, meaning no hedging about vows, and duty, and sacrifice, and all that) they want to be married? Or put another way, what possible reason is there to be married if you are not happy about the marriage?
Posted By: cherise Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 02:42 AM
Okay, the original question was why the BS does not (get)it! Oh, but we do, front words sidewords and in the heart. But, you DO NOT. You STILL feel that what you did was right, or OKAY! Do you discount entirely your wife's feelings? Do you not understand that your wishy-washy, I don't know what is right is killing your wife, and whatever love she ever had for you! Or do you not care! Are your feelings the only ones that count in the equation or are the people involved in your life simply maniquins who are supposed to have no feelings or emotions because they(choose to feel this way!) I had to come to a point where I had to wake up and smell the coffee, so to say. and I think you should put some serios thought into the words respect, honor and above all, respect. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 03:03 AM
cherise...You STILL feel that what you did was right, or OKAY! <p>snl..No it wasn't "right".<p>cherise...Do you discount entirely your wife's feelings? <p>snl...No, and I have gone around the block fairly to her re her feelings.<p>cherise...Do you not understand that your wishy-washy, I don't know what is right is killing your wife, and whatever love she ever had for you! Or do you not care! <p>snl...I care about everyone, sometimes too much, it is one of my problems. Are you suggesting I conceal my feelings? If I am wishy washy, it is what the truth is, what do I do, pretend otherwise? How do I not be who I am cherise? And isn't that a big problem, when people conceal who they are (feelings wise), doesn't radical honesty require me to reveal these thoughts and feelings? How can I take responsibility for thinkers response, isn't that up to her? If one wants radical honesty, one must be prepared for things they may not like to hear, things that may hurt....alot. If instead we are only radically honest and censor things that will distress our spouse, how does that make us any different than any other liar? We will be editing our revelations in order to manipulate our spouse, correct? And isn't that what lieing is all about?<p>cherise...Are your feelings the only ones that count <p>snl...Yes, they are, that is how it must be for each of us. The moment we start editing ourselves for others benefits, we have become dishonest, and concealed from them who we really are. I do not want anyone to spare my feelings EVER. Honesty and openess is more important to me than all the other needs combined and multiplied by 100 times. I WANT TO KNOW EXACTLY THE UNVASRNISHED, UNEDITED, TRUTH AT ALL TIMES. That does not mean don't be civil and polite delivering it though, just do not conside my feelings at all, only yours. That way I can trust you.<p>cherise... are the people involved in your life simply maniquins who are supposed to have no feelings or emotions because they(choose to feel this way!) I had to come to a point where I had to wake up and smell the coffee, so to say. and I think you should put some serios thought into the words respect, honor and above all, respect.<p>snl...This is unclear, are you saying it is respectful to conceal thoughts, feelings, and concerns, which you can reasonably assume will distress others? This violates MB principles of radical honesty, and opens the door to self-serving behaviours of all kinds....oh dear, I didn't tell you about the affair, cause I knew it would distress you.....or H, I didn't tell you I have never really loved you cause it would have made you unhappy..... you cannot have it both ways cherise, truth is truth, or lieing is ok, motives are irrelevant.
Posted By: cherise Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 03:17 AM
SNL,
No, I do not believe that you should lie about ANYTHING with your lifes partner, But, you did. Is it not the time to simply apoligize for your deceptivness and either leave your wife or stay and work on your marriage? Why continue rationalizing to yourself about your actions and trying to make them right in our eyes. You know in your heart, NOT HEAD, what you need to say and do. DO IT!
Posted By: guidobalata Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 03:23 AM
SNL, you've made me think a little about what you've said about this being black and white. "PLan A for a few months, then Plan B/D". The truth of the matter is that by setting up time frames, the BS can influence the situation, or "Fence sitting".<p>I'm at the latter stages of the plan a--I'm giving it until the first of February then, if needed, will go to PLan B. I'm not going to tolerate no results and especially, CONTACT, regardless of how trivial or not.<p>Thanks for the enlightenement--<p>Guido
Posted By: Estes49 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 04:11 AM
snl, you say here:
"And if I say an affair should not hurt, I am right...if you say it should, you are also right, the whole thing is back to attitude, and personal choice, not a universal principle or concept....."<p>Estes:
If you said an affair should not hurt YOU, then that statement may be correct. But if you said that an affair should not hurt ME that statement would be incorrect. If I said an affair should/would hurt ME, I would be correct. If I said that an affair should/would hurt YOU, that would be incorrect. That one's opinions speak for him/herself and not for others is a
universal principle.<p>snl:
Tell me estes, do you think people should remain married if they cannot honestly say (radically honest, meaning no hedging about vows, and duty, and sacrifice, and all that) they want to be married? Or put another way, what possible reason is there to be married if you are not happy about the marriage? <p>Estes:
IF none of the above considerations existed, I would say, "No. There is none" However, the fact is that they do exist. Can you give an example of a single marriage you know of personally in which none of the qualifiers existed? (I'm not sure what you mean about hedging about vows. To me a vow is a vow. Webster's: vow = a solemn promise or assertion, specif: one by which a person binds himself to an act, service, or condition. If a person's vow means nothing to him/her then there's nothing to discuss because his/her word means nothing. ) In other words, do you know of anyone whose marriage did not involve one of the qualifiers with the exception of someone whose word cannot be trusted?<p>My sister who was married for 20 years with no children decided within days of discovery of her H's affair to end the marriage. For a Christian, unrepentant, continuing adultery is a legitimate reason for the BS to end a marriage.
In this case, WH wanted the OW. BS didn't want the adulterous husband. The decision to divorce was clear for them. <p>My son is approaching a decision to divorce because his wife of 6 years and mother of their three-year-old son continues to be intimate with OM 10 months after her A began. Although losing his family has torn him apart (Yes, snl, you CAN be hurt by other people, and being told that your spouse does not want to be married to you IS terrible.), he cannot change her choices and must protect himself and his child from further damage. This damage is not optional, snl. It was imposed upon them by the choices of a very disturbed young woman. The reality of this is not open to debate. It is a fact. Unlike in my sister's case, my son's decision to divorce will be one he will makein order to protect his emotional health and that of his son. Words that you have posted in the past show that your response would be that my son chose to be divorced. If you apply your game of semantics here and really believe that my son wants/choses to be a divorced father who may never live with his little boy again, I am not capable of relating to that philosophy and will bow out of this discussion. <p>One critical thing you did not include in the list of qualifiers - children. I could write a book on this one. A divorce changes them forever. That is fact. Thankfully, most cope well. The wound heals, but the scar remains. If there are children still at home, the parents owe their children every sacrifice (yes, those cumbersome values again - duty and sacrifice) to hold the family together except in cases of abuse, addiction, or continued adultery. My opinion is based on volumes of research I have read. In the case of children, "I don't want to be married to you anymore.," won't cut it. Sorry. No way, no how. Work it out. A marriage with children must be preserved at all cost, even if the parents have to sacrifice satisfying their own needs (with the above exceptions) to protect their children.<p>Estes
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 04:27 AM
estes, I am not sure you answered my question, are you saying love, and happiness, and wanting to live in intimacy are irrelevant? You do it cause of a rule? You make a vow you keep it, no matter how loveless the marriage? And are you saying kids needs always come before adults needs, that you stay married for the kids even if two people hate each other? And if hate is to strong, then just make it can't stand each other. Why would people do this estes, would you live like this? What is the point, and how do kids benefit by living in a loveless home. How do you know remarriage to a loving terrific step-mom will not be better for your grandson then a bickering loveless marriage that stayed together cause of vows.... You cannot say it shouldn't be that way, cause now you are violating your observation of reality, in the real world people do not get along and divorce, but you are suggesting they may not get along, but they still stay married, how does that work?<p>btw, many (including me) would not accept a marriage based on vows and sacrifice, even if I was in-love and wanted a marriage to continue, I would not accept a spouse who did not love me, but was willing to be dutiful....neither would a lot of others, would you? How do you deal with that circumstance, I would divorce them, whether they would or not....My spouse has to be able to look me in the eye, every day, and with radical honesty say they are in-love with me, or I do not want them, no matter how much I love them...why? Cause they are only propery, they are only staying cause I have their deed, the vows, that is why vows mean nothing, they eliminate love as the basis of marriage. I prefer a world where love is the reason we choose another, not rules, and sacrifice, and duty. I prefer marriage not be a contract. Others prefer the contractural model, is that true for you?<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>
Posted By: trustntruth Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 05:21 AM
SNL, <p>Not everyone's #1 emotional need is honesty, but it certainly is one of my most important emotional needs. <p>If I measure my husbands honesty by my standards, he comes up short. If he measures honesty by his standards, he believes he has gone 'over and beyond'. <p>If you ask my husband today why he wants to stay married, he'll tell you (in his version of honesty) that he wants to stay married because it is the 'right thing to do'. But, I happen to know, that today, a more honest answer from him would be 'because it is easier to stay married than to go through a divorce.' (we've been there and done that before.)<p>Gee! Today, knowing what my husbands 'true' feelings are, do I want to stay married to him? How does that make me feel? <p>Before I answer that question, I have to look back to just a couple of months ago. I know that a couple of months ago, he would have said that he wants to stay married - because he enjoys being married to me. And that would have been an honest response at that time.<p>Recovered relationships are like that - it is a dance. It isn't always at the top, it isn't always at the bottom. But it does hit the top sometimes, and it does hit the bottom sometimes. Sometimes we fit, sometimes we don't. We are ever-changing people, and it is because of the commitment - that helps us to understand one another and grow - and have those non-surface feelings of love with one another. <p>Love is multi-leveled, multi-layered. Sometimes the marriage thrives simply because it is too much trouble to get divorced, other times, because it is the most emotionally fulfilling relationship we have ever experienced.<p>I also believe that God instituted marriage so that it would mirror our relationship with God. We are sometimes close with God (when we are paying attention to God and not ourselves) and other times not close with God (when we are not paying attention to God, but to ourselves.) The only difference between marriage and our relationship with God, he is always faithful, and always paying attention to us.<p>Feelings are feelings, yes, they are our human ways of interpreting our relationships and ourselves. But feelings change. And feelings are many times a result of what we believe. Are feelings always equal to truth? I don't think so. On the surface maybe, but not deeply.
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 05:25 AM
cherise...No, I do not believe that you should lie about ANYTHING with your lifes partner, But, you did. <p>snl...Yes, I did, but what is your point?<p>cherise...Is it not the time to simply apoligize for your deceptivness and either leave your wife or stay and work on your marriage? <p>snl..I did apologize. And we are indeed resolving the stay or leave issue, as best we can, each in our own way (as we must).... hopefully with as much honesty, compassion, and civility as possible.<p>cherise...Why continue rationalizing to yourself about your actions and trying to make them right in our eyes. <p>snl...I don't rationalize. I seek understanding, then I act, it is how I run my life, it is who I am.<p>cherise...You know in your heart, NOT HEAD, what you need to say and do. DO IT! <p>snl...IMO one needs heart and head to be in the same place, that is not so easy for human beings, but it is responsible, and one should not act until a reasonable heart/head concsensus is reached IMO. I made the mistake once of not making sure I knew what I was doing, I don't intend to make the same mistake again.<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>
Posted By: cherise Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 06:25 AM
Now you are trying ro patronize. I am not an unintelligent woman and will refuse all ultimate dodging of true issues, if you are truly dealing with the issue of where you feel your life should be now, why are you still trying to make your wife the one in the wrong. Why not say, hey, I ###### up, I was wrong, If I did not love you I should have left, not try to continually departmentalize, rationalize and prioritize us unto death!
The BS does not GET IT because your behavior does not fit the moral, ethical, and biblical standards of decency and humanity. You were neither honest or FAIR to either her or the OW. YOu put human emotions on the line with little or no thought to anyone but yourself, and if you say you put alot of thought into this beforehand, then all I guess there is to be said is shame on YOU! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]
Posted By: Estes49 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 08:55 AM
snl:
estes, I am not sure you answered my question,<p>Estes:
Which question didn't I answer?<p>
snl:
are you saying love, and happiness, and wanting to live in intimacy are irrelevant? <p>Estes:
That's a silly question,snl. What did I say or not say that came even close to implying that?<p>snl:
are you saying kids needs always come before adults needs<p>Estes:
Very few things are "always." For the good of the kids, adults may have to make sacrifices. And there is a difference between needs and desires. I would agree that the needs of the kids always come before the desires of the adults. For example, my DIL's desire for the thrill of her affair should never have come before the need of her son to have an intact family. My DIL does not NEED this OM. She wants him. Huge difference. To expect my DIL to forgo her relationship with this man for the sake of her son is a no brainer.<p>
snl:
You make a vow you keep it, no matter how loveless the marriage? <p>Estes:
I answered that question by referencing my sister's story. Speaking of vows, a BS who files for divorce does not break his/her vows by seeking to end the marriage. It is the adulterous spouse who broke to marriage vows. A BS who accepts divorce has not broken his/her vows any more than a person whose contract was broken by the other party has broken the contract.<p>
snl:
What is the point, and how do kids benefit by living in a loveless home. <p>Estes:
Don't take my word for it.
"The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" by Judith Wallerstein
"Dan Quayl Was Right" by Barbara Dafoe Whitehead, Atlantic Monthly April 1993
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/family/danquayl.htm<p>snl:
How do you know remarriage to a loving terrific step-mom will not be better for your grandson then a bickering loveless marriage that stayed together cause of vows.... <p>Estes:
It looks more and more that they will not stay together. And they don't bicker, rather DIL screws OM, and son weeps. (Sorry, vent.) Son has not stayed in marriage 10 months after d-day because of vows. He has stayed because he loves his wife, knows separation will be traumatic for his child, and to be convinced that his goal of keeping his family together is hopeless. Having a loving step-mom may come to pass. Unfortunately the odds are that grandson will be living with his unstable mother, not his father and any future step-mom.<p>
snl:
btw, many (including me) would not accept a marriage based on vows and sacrifice,

Estes:
Many others (including me) think that this is an integral part of a loving marriage. <p>
snl:
even if I was in-love and wanted a marriage to continue, I would not accept a spouse who did not love me,<p>Estes:
Personally, I would quickly lose the love I had for someone who did not love me. If that's not a fatal LB, what is? Loss of love does not necessarily mean you hate each other. People rarely hate each other unless some significant insult is involved. If such an insult is involved it is likely one of the three As (abuse, addition, and adultery)in which case divorce is justified. Research I've read says that even in the absence of love where parents are civil to one another, children fare better living with both biological parents than with a single parent. See references above. Hateful behavior between the parents is another matter. Continuous hateful behavior is abuse. That qualifies as justification for divorce as per the exceptions that I mentioned in previous post. In case of emotionally abusive behavior (mental cruelty), divorce may be necessary even though there are children in the home. Do I think that parents owe it to their children to put aside their hate? Yes.<p>snl:
Cause they are only propery, they are only staying cause I have their deed, the vows, that is why vows mean nothing, they eliminate love as the basis of marriage. <p>Estes:
Oh my gosh, I think I'm about to sound like you! Here goes. They are not staying because you have anything on them. They are staying because they have chosen not to go - for whatever reason. And I am in total disagreement that vows eliminate love as the basis of marriage. I am at a loss to understand why you think a vow degates love. If that were true, nobody who was married would be in love. <p>
snl:
I prefer a world where love is the reason we choose another, not rules, and sacrifice, and duty. <p>Estes:
That's what most of us would prefer, I think.<p>
snl:
I prefer marriage not be a contract. Others prefer the contractural model, is that true for you?<p>Estes:
Most definitely I prefer the contractual model. Relationships do not exist in a vacuum. They are part of society. Families are the foundation of society in virtually every culture. Families imply children. Children receive their nurturing most effectively within a family structure where both male and female role models are present and where the parents have a vested interest in the children. An intact biological family accomplishes this task most effectively. Therefore, a stable (i.e., one not easily disrupted) family is in the interest of society. Contractual marriages promote stability of families and society because they discourage the break up of the family. I believe and research shows that divorce impacts not only the two spouses but also the families and society as a whole. For the benefit of families and society, contractual marriages are important because they remind the parties involved that their union has significance beyond themselves.<p>If the desires of the individual were the only thing that mattered, marriage contracts would not be necessary, but human beings live in societies, and the desires of the individual are NOT all that matter.<p>I noticed that you posted this to cherise:
[cherise...Are your feelings the only ones that count ]
[snl...Yes, they are, that is how it must be for each of us.] <p>You and I differ fundamentally in our value systems. Unlike you, I believe that my feelings are not the only ones that count, and I am willing to sacrifice self-gratification for the good of others. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a glutton for punishment. I admit to selfish feelings and deeds. But I know that I am not the center of the universe, and I am not the only one who counts. <p>
Estes
Posted By: cherise Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 09:07 AM
thank you estes,
I very much agree that we MUST consider all points of veiw. After all, the human race is the only species to understand cause and effect. You cannot refuse to understand the truth of the fact that your actions will affect others, especially others that you are emotionally involved with! How can you possibly, Humanly believe that emotional devastation is by CHOICE! We did not CHOOSE to be betrayed, Have our lives and beliefs torn apart. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 04:25 PM
estes...I noticed that you posted this to cherise:
[cherise...Are your feelings the only ones that count ]
[snl...Yes, they are, that is how it must be for each of us.] <p>You and I differ fundamentally in our value systems. Unlike you, I believe that my feelings are not the only ones that count, and I am willing to sacrifice self-gratification for the good of others. <p>snl...Then you are doing what you want...correct? Your feeling of self-sacrifice is what you act on, you are no different at all. In fact no one is different, human beings always do what they want, every time, and that is my point. I am not really being disagreed with (or chastisted) for being selfish, that is just a convienient label we use to exert power (through guilt) in a conflict. The problem is each of us determines ourt own behaviour and when it is at odds with another the other claims selfishness, just as is being done here. The fact is there are no rules estes, it is all made up, and the rules are not for societies benefit they are selfish rules designed to bind someone to you. <p>I also note that you did not really answer my questions, you took em and um....... changed them to what you want to say...I am familiar with this technique, I see it quite regularly, it makes useful discussion difficult cause it is not an open mind, my sense is your mind is made up, you are set in your ways, and that is it. No hard feelings estes, I use to think the way you did to, I understand it, and I understand why it does not work as an absolute also. But we are not really discussing, you apparently think marriage is inviolate, except when you think it is not, end of story. I also find your arguments very unrealistic, I don't think it would be a better world if somehow we could make divorce impossible, and force people to stay married. That is essentially what you are saying, ignore feelings in favor of contractural type considerations. Feelings tell us things estes, and one of the things they tell us is who to seek oneflesh with and who not to. If we erred and married the wrong person it makes no sense to spend a lifetime in that unhappy union, or trying to pretend we are happy, that is why we have feelings because they are important.<p>estes...Don't get me wrong. I'm not a glutton for punishment. I admit to selfish feelings and deeds. But I know that I am not the center of the universe, and I am not the only one who counts. <p>snl...That is a healthy, and very SELFISH point of view. (I will leave you to figure out why). One I share.<p>Let me try a coupld more streamlined questions. And DO NOT alter them, just ignore them if you do not want to answer them as I ask them. (I will return the courtesy if you would like).<p>1. Should one marry someone only if they want to (selfish?).<p>2. Should one stay married only if they want to?<p>3. If no (to #2) would you accept a spouse who told you (had to because of radical honesty) they do not "feel" like they want to be married to you (do not love you that way), and will only stay out of duty and vows until you let them go.<p>4. Back to kids, keep in mind I lived that life. I did stay married for kids, my w wanted divorce for years, I refused to participate in paperwork or we would be divorced now. It is hard to assess whether it was good or not. They never had any problems with drugs, alcohol, sex, trouble, always got A's and are doing well in college. But they have significant interpersonal problems, are selfish, and use anger as their primary coping mechanism....they are all going to have serious marital difficulties I am certain. But I guess having been exposed to what happens when 2 people shouldn't marry, but try to make the best of it, maybe they will be cautious enough to choose right, who knows. The point is my w and I have made a huge sacrifice to do that, we have been miserable (despite years of counselling, and being decent people, various efforts, church going, the whole 9 yards) for most of 30 years. <p>For me a good day was one in which I did not get yelled at or critized for something, pretty sad huh. I don't consider this a success for me or her in our personal lives, that is a whole lot of unhappiness for both of us, and I am not so sure the kids wouldn't have been just as fine if we had divorced long ago, married someone we could be happy with and given them much better examples of how relationships should work. So when folks tell me but it didn't have to be that way....that is fantasy, it was that way, we didn't want it that way, it was that way cause of who we are and trying to be intimate with someone you do not fit, it does not work, and you pay a price for trying, a large price.....the only think that keeps me sane is figuring on the whole, it was probably marginally better for the kids. Ok this wasn't a question, and I don't usually talk about my kids cause is not relevant and has nothing to do with now. I DO NOT beleive we should live our lives for our kids, we are important too, and they sure do not grow up and live their lives for us..do they? I think making kids the only standard we live by is nonsensical. But they should be motivation to be sure we give proper effort to assessing our choices, and if we divorce we have the same obligation to do a good job parenting....the problem is not the divorce, it is the lousy job the parents do, but then they were probably doing a lousy job anyways (and would continue to do so) cause being married does not make you a good parent...correct? Plenty of married people raise screwed up children, so in fact if one is married to someone who is a dyysfunctional parent, according to your criteria (childrens best interest) they SHOULD divorce for that reason alone and find a better parent....right? <p>5. You listed abuse, and addiction as reasons for divorce, was that correct? And if so, where in the Bible is divorce allowed for those reasons (using the more popular interpretations). And if we agree these things are ok, who decides? Do each of us assess for ourselves, and then can act. I feel I was emotionally abused for years, our counsellor agreed, does that mean I am free to go? Without social disapproval? Who decides?<p>Ya see estes, this is the problem with "rules" they do not work, it still always comes back to feelings.... as it should. Your basic argument seems to be you marry someone, and long as they don't abuse you you SHOULD love them, that is nonsensical, it is not how humans function. And what happens if in the ignorance of youth you make a decision you regret...a life sentence? We pride ourselves on growth and changing our circumstances in everything, even relationships, but somehow marriage is different, exempt, is a gaurantee? What about people who are not honest with you conceal who they really are, how they will treat you, and you marry...too bad? Frankly you don't make any sense estes, but I have come to understand humans have several different temperament types, one of those, and the largest (probably for good reason) is those who are more rule oriented, are less likely to be agreeable to change in societal practices, such. <p>And that is not a bad thing, is necessary for our species, but for them how one feels is not as important as what one does, this has it's good side, and it's bad side. It is better when they marry each other, cause then they fit.....but unfortuneately they often marry those of us who have different priorities, and how we fit emotionally is very important to us, far more important than a rule/vow, we are interested in the emotional welfare of people, not the "picture" of marriage. It can work out fine for disparate personalities to marry, but when it does not, the rule makers try to make their way the standard to live by, and that is part of the turmoil, and why we don't understand each other....I do think it is possible to fit in deep abiding ways, and be in-love all the time, that is cause that is how people like me are put together, we make those kinds of committments based on fit, not on promises. <p>What I didn't understand is rule makers can do the same, they can be in-love cause the rules are being followed, and emotional fit is not that important, that is not what makes them happy, it is the security of knowing the other will not leave that makes them happy....of course some of these marriages are empty emotional places, where the participants have little to do with each other....I see them all the time at 30, 40, 50 year anniversaries, being feted for their longevity..... and I look at them and see so little passion, kind of a just putting in their time till they die and it is so sad, but maybe they are happy in their success at marital longevity, who am I to say, but I will not make that my standard, I tried it, and it didn't work.<p>In any event, I am reasonably sure you will never really understand me, or the things I study, and the psychological realities I think drive all this. I just don't think people can be married to anyone and that automatically is the way to live your entire life, I do think people fit differently, and I do think the less they fit the more they suffer whether they force themselves to deny that or not. Marriage is not a prison, it is freely entered and should only continue as long as the participants want it too. Rules (no matter how we gussie it up) take away the freedom to choose who you share your heart with, a choice that must be made and renewed everyday....without coercion of any kind....and should be made by feelings, that is the language of the heart.
Posted By: Estes49 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 07:56 PM
Hello:<p>from snl to Estes:<p>Let me try a coupld more streamlined questions. And DO NOT alter them, just ignore them if you do not want to answer them as I ask them. (I will return the courtesy if you would like). <p>1. Should one marry someone only if they want to (selfish?).
ESTES: YES; I CAN'T IMAGINE IT BEING OTHERWISE. YOU SEEM TO BE EQUATING THIS TYPE OF DECISION TO SELFISHNESS. WEBSTER: SELFISH = CONCERNED EXCLUSIVELY OR EXCESSIVELY WITH ONESELF, SEEKING OR CONCENTRATING ON ONE'S OWN ADVANTAGE, PLEASURE, OR WELL-BEING WITHOUT REGARD FOR OTHERS. DOING WHAT ONE WANTS DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY EQUATE TO SELFISHNESS. <p>2. Should one stay married only if they want to?
ESTES: NOT NECESSARILY. TOO MANY VARIABLES TO ANSWER THAT YES OR NO. I CAN IMAGINE CASES WHERE THE ANSWER WOULD BE NO AND ONRS WHERE THE ANSWER WOULD BE YES. I WOULD SAY THAT ONE SHOULD GET MARRRIED ONLY IF THEY WANT TO, AS PER #1.<p>3. If no (to #2) would you accept a spouse who told you (had to because of radical honesty) they do not "feel" like they want to be married to you (do not love you that way), and will only stay out of duty and vows until you let them go.
ESTES: SORRY, CAN'T ANSWER THIS BECAUSE IT DOESN'T APPLY TO ME, BUT PROBABLY NOT. HOWEVER, I WOULD CONSIDER IT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO TRY EVERYTHING I COULD TO MAKE THE MARRIAGE WORK BEFORE I GO. SNL, NO ONE HAS TO LET A SPOUSE GO BEFORE HE CAN LEAVE. NO ONE ELSE HAS CONTROL OVER HIS CHOICES. IF HE CHOSES TO STAY OUT OF DUTY, VOWS, WHATEVER, IT IN NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE WILL NOT LET HIM GO, IT'S BECAUSE HE CHOSE TO STAY. <p>4. Back to kids, keep in mind I lived that life. I did stay married for kids, my w wanted divorce for years, I refused to participate in paperwork or we would be divorced now. It is hard to assess whether it was good or not. They never had any problems with drugs, alcohol, sex, trouble, always got A's and are doing well in college. But they have significant interpersonal problems, are selfish, and use anger as their primary coping mechanism....they are all going to have serious marital difficulties I am certain. But I guess having been exposed to what happens when 2 people shouldn't marry, but try to make the best of it, maybe they will be cautious enough to choose right, who knows. The point is my w and I have made a huge sacrifice to do that, we have been miserable (despite years of counselling, and being decent people, various efforts, church going, the whole 9 yards) for most of 30 years.
ESTES: DIDN'T SEE A QUESTION HERE TO ANSWER. I APPRECIATE YOUR SACRIFICE AND HOPE YOUR KIDS ARE OPEN TO HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS, ETC. ANOTHER REFERENCE: "STUPID THINGS PARENTS DO TO MESS UP THEIR KIDS" BY DR. LAURA SCHLESSINGER<p>snl:
In fact no one is different, human beings always do what they want, every time, and that is my point
ESTES: YOU EQUATE A CHOICE WITH A DESIRE TO DO WHAT ONE CHOOSES. NOT NECESSARILY SO. <p>snl:
your mind is made up, ESTES: YES
you are set in your ways, ESTES: YES, IF YOU MEAN COMMITTED TO PRINCIPLES I ACCEPT AS A RESULT OF A LOT OF THOUGHT
and that is it. ESTES: NO. I HAVEN'T STOPPED THINKING. <p>
snl:
Your feeling of self-sacrifice is what you act on,
ESTES: YOU ASSUME THAT ALL OF MY CHOICES ARE BASED ON ONE UNIVERSAL MOTIVATION.
NO SO.<p>snl:
But we are not really discussing, you apparently think marriage is inviolate, except when you think it is not, end of story.
ESTES: INCORRECT. EVEN IF I DID, WHAT I THINK HAS NO EFFECT ON YOUR CHOICE.<p>snl:
I don't think it would be a better world if somehow we could make divorce impossible, and force people to stay married.
ESTES: I AGREE. AND, IN FACT, NO ONE MAKES US STAY MARRIED. WE ARE FREE TO STAY MARRIED OR TO GO. <p>snl;
That is essentially what you are saying, ignore feelings in favor of contractural type considerations.
ESTES: I NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED THAT FEELINGS SHOULD BE IGNORED.<p>snl:
If we erred and married the wrong person it makes no sense to spend a lifetime in that unhappy union, or trying to pretend we are happy, that is why we have feelings because they are important.
And if we agree these things are ok, who decides? Do each of us assess for ourselves, and then can act. I feel I was emotionally abused for years, our counsellor agreed, does that mean I am free to go?
ESTES: YOU ARE 100% FREE TO DO WHATEVER YOU DECIDE TO DO. YOU DECIDE YOUR OWN COURSE IN LIFE BY REACTING TO SITUATIONS THAT PRESENT THEMSELVES. ONLY YOU. WHAT I OR OTHERS THINK IS IRRELEVANT TO YOUR DECISION.<p>snl:
Your basic argument seems to be you marry someone, and long as they don't abuse you you SHOULD love them,
ESTES: WRONG. NEVER SAID A WORD ABOUT "SHOULD LOVE."
<p>snl:
I just don't think people can be married to anyone and that automatically is the way to live your entire life, I do think people fit differently, and I do think the less they fit the more they suffer whether they force themselves to deny that or not. Marriage is not a prison, it is freely entered and should only continue as long as the participants want it too.
ESTES: SNL, WHAT IS KEEPING YOU FROM ACTING ON THIS CONVICTION YOU OBVIOUSLY HOLD VERY STRONGLY?<p>Ultimately, the point of this discussion should not be whose opinion is right or wrong, who is selfish and who is not, whose outlook is realistic and whose is not, what mistakes we made in the past, or what others expect of us. More to the point, what do we expect of ourselves and what are we going to do about it. <p>Estes
Posted By: Nellie1 Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 12/31/01 11:24 PM
SNL,<p>I thought that I had read that you had a 15 year old son (as do I). Is he in college already?<p>If your kids managed to survive their teenage years without geting into trouble with drugs or alcohol, and are doing well in college, I really don't think you have anything to complain about relative to them. If being selfish, sometimes angry, and having "interpersonal problems" is the worst you can say about them, you are pretty d*** lucky. <p>Just about ALL teenagers can be pretty obnoxious, and selfishness just goes with the territory. Personally, I am very thankful that my oldest kids never had problems with drugs or alcohol, and their success in college is an added bonus. I just hope my next four manage as well. <p>What really bothers me is that it seems when you mention your children that, although you obviously feel a sense of responsibility toward them, I see no indication that you feel any affection toward them.
Posted By: thinker Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 01/01/02 05:44 PM
YUK - I just lost a big post! Life sucks!<p>Radical honesty, H has not been honest to me for a year. Also, she used our money to pay her phone bills, and she lied to me about having sex with my H. She manipulated SNL into having sex with her, and since this was her definite 2nd sexual affair, she knew exactly what she wanted. She knew exactly where this was going, she has already done it for sure once. The counselors told me this, and my H fell for it. My thought is, who is she going to do this with next? Who's family is she going to destroy next? This woman is definitely schizo!<p>I feel all WS's should wear a big red A on their forehead with the words LIAR beneath it. All WS's should have a lie detector test every month, so data can be kept, and all WS's should be accountable for money lost in their family due to their having fun with another person. If you do divorce, the OP will be brought to court. As for my H OW, she will have to fly at her own expense to come to our state and sit in court. I saw on TV on a movie that the explicit details of the sexual encounter were said in court. <p>Why do you all ask someone who is sitting on the fence to respond and give advice? Or do you like the debating issue too? SNL does not say the positive about me, just the negative. Take what he says with a grain of salt. Would be nice to see a post he writes about how terrible the OW was. But I have read most of his posts, and I am the bad person, that was mean to him, and the OW was just the most wonderful person in the world. If all of you could see a flashback of our marriage, SNL wasn't an angel. <p>Our marriage is going nowhere, divorce is in the future. Yes, I feel SNL is making me make the final decision. After the fact of my fathers upcoming death, and going through the grief. One of us has to go to the lawyer. I guess it will be me. SNL is to afraid to be radically honest with me. As you see from his posts, he doesn't want to be married to a round peg that is trying to fit with a square hole or vice versa. He had his in-love, and is looking for the in-love. Go for it SNL.<p>As far as my dad. He had a wonderful Sunday with relatives visiting. He was up for 7 hours visiting, was coherent, and ate very little. Sunday night the downhill started. Sunday night he kept mom up every 2 hours. Mom and my brother called the hospice RN out Monday and she administered 10mg morphine, and a pain patch. Gave him aggitation medication as well. Usually a person has a good day right before death. Dads, skin as changed colors, his breathing is shallow, and he is getting rigid. Dads one eye that is open rolls when he opens his eye. His beautiful blue eye seems to have no life in it. He stares and rolls his eye. He is incontinent, and doesn't seem to know who we are. He was in a lot of pain with touch, and was some this morning. Gave him more morphine. This is so hard to deal with. To see the one that created you deteriate into a vegetable. <p>I had a good talk with dad for about 2 hours Sunday, before company came, and that was wonderful. I will cherish those minutes. He asked about his death, asked how long he has, asked what is killing him, said he is ready. I told him I will meet him in heaven. We talked about his wife, his son, and talked about love, caring, dieing of his siblings, and talked about God some. It was very emotional for me, and maybe I am getting hardened now. Life SUCKS!!!!<p>Pray for peace with Dad soon, no need for one to suffer like this. Give him dignity and leave this earth and be with his family in heaven, and those friends that he knew and beable to work and work in the garden, and play cards, and fish, and enjoy no pain. I love you dad, I love you God, I love you Joseph.
Posted By: Zorweb Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 01/01/02 09:41 PM
Thinker,<p>If this is not too painful for you, I have a question or two. SNL said that he feels he has been supporting you through your father's illness. I am very curious about this so if you would share I have some questions.<p>
1. What does SNL do to be supportive of you at this time? And does it meet your needs?<p>2. What would you like him to do, or have done?<p>3. Has he ever asked you what type of support you wanted/needed?<p>I think I have a bit of a clue as to some of your responses but would like to make a point to SNL with your response to these questions.<p>I now this is a very hard time for you and your family. Your father obviously means a lot to you. You are in my thoughts and prayers.
Posted By: Lora Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 01/01/02 10:22 PM
Thinker,<p>I pray for you and your father, it is never easy to loose a parent, but You should cherish this time and be glad you had it and could say what you wanted to him.<p>As for why we talk to SNL, for myself its bcause my H doesnt talk at all, I am afraid he is going through the same thing SNL is, so I read, am horrified, but hope to understand a little better. SNl is nothing if not verbal on here.
But many of us have the same fence sitting H and we dont get any info from them. I feel for you.
Lora
Posted By: thinker Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 01/01/02 11:24 PM
Zorweb - SNL has given me the time to spend at my parents home. He has given me some hugs, some voice, some tears, some laughter. I would have liked for him to say, is honey I would love to take you out for new years eve. Maybe dinner, or out to get an ice-cream. I didn't go back to my moms till 9pm last night. Instead I worked on getting the x-mas material organized in containers. I called him last night just after 12 midnight to say happy new year. He didn't wish me one, just said what he is doing and who is home. I know he doesn't love me at all. Why does he sit here and pretend. I wish he would just leave and get it over with.<p>Like today, I worked on x-mas stuff again, and he was on the boards. I was throwing stuff down, and he did get up and started taking things away that I was throwing down and cleaning up this area. I asked him to give me the rest of the containers, and asked him if there were any more? He comes back with how many did you buy? I knew I bought an even #, but I asked cause I wasn't sure. But he says, why did you ask me? I am not sure of anything now, I have found myself driving and sort of waking up on the road and realizing where I was. He took and put some things where I didn't want them. I said the suitcases go upstairs. He got so defensive. Said you have criticized me our whole marriage. Let me do things my way, and just leave it be. All it I would like to have is all the suitcases together. He criticized me, when I was putting the ornament bulbs in the dividers of the containers. I was cutting up paper towels, to put around the glass ornaments before I put them into each individual square cardboard slot. SNL said why are you doing that, I said to prevent the bulb from getting broke. He just said it isn't going to help. I felt like he said, hey stupid your doing something wrong again, your just an idiot. He makes comments like this to me, doesn't realize it, and criticizes quite a bit. I didn't say anything, cause he already expressed he was furious at me. So I just let it be and moved on and worked till I finally said I have to get some sleep. He did come and rub my feet, which is nice. He got things quiet so I could take a nap. I like to be cuddled, rubbed, and back scratched. SNL says he doesn't like the touchy rubby thing. SNL says he doesn't like hugs. So that is where we are. <p>He hasn't officially asked me what he could do doing this time to comfort me. But he says he has, but there is a discrepancy between what he hears and what I say. Seems we have to clarify quite often. I have expressed to him that I would like to be held, kissed, talked to in a sensitive loving manner, talk about my father in a positive manner, I don't want to hear now how my parents marrige was no good. Sure it wasn't that in-love SNL had with his OW, but they cared for each other for 53 years. Neither of them had a sexual affair in their marriage. <p>SNL did say to me he liked that I am cleaning and arranging the area where the x-mas decorations are. He stated that I should of done this years ago. I did do it 2 years ago, went through the stuff, threw stuff out and worked with boxes. This time everything is in see-through containers with slots for bulbs, and etc. The rubbermaid containers stack on each other of same sizes. So things are neater. But I had to buy containers, last time I used boxes. I am the conservative one, but this year decided to make the plunge and spend money on containers. At least it made SNL feel good, so maybe there is a drop in his lovebank, who knows. Since he doesn't want me meeting his needs, who knows.<p>Well, now on to the next segment of today, spend time with my mom and dad for the night. Will respond tomorrow. The grief counselor from hospice is coming tomorrow morning to talk with us. I have physical therapy in early mornig. I am going to try to be there, would like to go shopping to buy an outfit for the funeral too. I don't have anything really fitting for a funeral, since I lost weight. <p>I am sure glad that I am going to be cremated when I die. I want things short and simple. The day I die, I want to be cremated that day, no showing of body, just get it over with and everyone move on. I just hope I don't suffer like my dad, I wish a truck would kill me on the highway and get it over with. Or someone shoots me and it is over with. This is h*ll to see a human body deteriate like this, especially one you love. I had a hard time in clinical seeing patients die, but this is worse having it be family. <p>Lora - you are experiencing the sitting fence syndrome too. If I were to read SNL post as not a W, I would see that SNL is negative about marriage with thinker, and wants out. I would see that he is not marriage material, he doesn't believe in vows or religious marriage. The vows he makes in his next marriage, better be made by him and his to be wife better see what he writes before the actual marriage. His vows will need to be till I get tired of you like I did with my first wife. They should also include there is no committment, there is no guarantee, there is no remorse, there is no guilt, I am going to be who I am and that is it. <p>Yes, I am negative, I feel negative, I am the one on Zolof and Atarax. SNL doesn't feel he needs to be on antidepressant. But I need it, and I guess that is OK. There are things about SNL that are quite negative. But I am not going to go into the name calling. Life with him has not been the greatest. But you know, I am looking into men now. I look at them like I have never looked before. At physical therapy, I have talked with some men, and you know at this point if one asks me out for coffee after PT, I think I will go. I want the in-love feeling, I want the secrets, I want the special cards, I want the special gifts, I want the love talk, I want someone to hold me unconditionally. Life sucks, and I hope mine ends soon.
Posted By: Evensong Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 01/02/02 03:33 AM
Dear Thinker,<p>Have you checked out the other board, we are concerned about you there. I've missed hearing from you and was very glad to read you here.<p>Please know that I'm praying for your father, your family and you. <p>Evensong
Posted By: alexy Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 01/02/02 01:27 PM
SNL not to but in on your thread, but having your wife actually say in type, I hate my life I wish it was over, SEND UP A RED FLAG . You need to stop playing on your computer and really sit down and figure out your marriage. She is in pain, she is hurt, she is wanting to die.<p> Even if your end choice is to not be together, damn man, show compassion and go and help her. While you have been here for 9 months trying to figure out your ideal of marriage, she has been dying inside. PLease help her and yourself by getting of these boards for a bit and REALLY working your stuff out with the other HUMAN in your marriage.<p>allie
Posted By: sad_n_lonely Re: SNL - help me "get it" - 01/02/02 03:13 PM
allie, thank-you for your concern, my wife is ok, she has said similar things all her life when she is upset, and right now with her father's illness, and her marital difficulties, she has a lot on her plate. I won't analyze her here, is not appropriate, but I do know her very well, she has always had a very difficult time with stress, tends to get depressed and down very quickly. This causes some difficulty cause I end up having to be the fixer, and optimistic one all the time, it is one of the main reasons she married me I think (and I think true for many of the marriages I read about here). It can also be used manipulatively (not maliciously, but still part of the um..."victim" stuff humans use on each other). But now I am not optimistic either, and that is not what she is use to, so just makes it all kinda harder.<p>allie...SNL not to but in on your thread, but having your wife actually say in type, I hate my life I wish it was over, SEND UP A RED FLAG . You need to stop playing on your computer and really sit down and figure out your marriage. <p>snl...I don't think of it as playing allie, this is deadly serious to me, I have to decide how to spend the rest of my life, I need to talk it all out, it is how I cope and figure out stuff.<p>allie...She is in pain, she is hurt, she is wanting to die.<p>snl..I guess none of us can really ever know for sure what is in someone elses mind, but I am sure not worth dieing over, and she knows that. I do watch her close, and I do try not to make this any harder than I can (without being emotionally dishonest, and just pretending I am happy). But we have to do this stuff allie, it cannot just all be done her way.<p>allie...Even if your end choice is to not be together, damn man, show compassion and go and help her. <p>snl..I do, often, just cause she says I don't does not make it true.<p>allie...While you have been here for 9 months trying to figure out your ideal of marriage, she has been dying inside. PLease help her and yourself by getting of these boards for a bit and REALLY working your stuff out with the other HUMAN in your marriage.<p>snl...What does that mean? I should not be concerned about what concerns me, and just do what she wants me to do? Keep in mind these are not exclusive things. I was done with the marriage, completely, I accepted her standing offer for divorce, SHE reneged. That left me in an emotional vacuumn, I don't just decide I am done, then change me mind the next day. It took me 23 years to give up, fighting every inch of the way. But I said ok, I will revisit our relationship, and decide whether I want to remarry you (so to speak). And I have done a lot of things to that end, including stopping the A, applying MB principles (as best I can), reading and studying about affairs and marriage, spending a lot of time with w (we had been avoiding each other for several years), going to counselling, and so forth and so on, why does this mean I should not also try to understand why to "remarry" and understand what my feelings really are, and why I have them? <p>This is how I am honest with myself, and avoid just falling back into the marriage as the road of least resistance. It really confuses me that folks value this board, and figuring stuff out, but somehow does not apply to me....I am just supposed to ignore my feelings, and just "do it" (stay married). If I was ignoring my w I could see some chastisement, but I am not, I am doing exactly what I am suppose to be doing, but it is not enough, and I am critized and chastised for my efforts (by her, and many of you by proxy), never good enough, ..... go figure. I get the distinct feeling I am not valued for who I am, only for what I can do, and since I am not doing it the way it is wanted, I am not worthy, this does not make me very enthusiastic.<p>Thank-you for your comments allie. Thinkers dad has made it through the night, but it cannot be long, hour by hour now. She is distraught, and I am trying very hard not to put anything else on her, and be supportive. Nor am I arguing with her when she is LB'ing me (alot, here and at home), just turning the other cheek, that's all I can do.
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