Hey CarolKH... can you elaborate on your story?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>At 16 month separation, I implemented radical 180's.
He woke up; begged & pleaded with ME to take him back. I acted unsure.
Made him wait, then let him come back.
We have a NEW relationship; VERY wonderful; he has been back 7 months now. We had a poor marriage before, now it is everything I could want. <hr></blockquote>I think it would be helpful for us to read about your radical 180's... would you elaborate?Thanks,Trying Again (AKA C A L I)

^^^Bump^^^

Cali, sorry, I just saw your msg. I am not on the boards as much as I used to be.My story is long, LOL. Maybe I can give you the brief version.H and I in 2nd marriages for both of us (his former W left him; I left my abusive alcoholic 1st H); married now 21 1/2 yrs.We had had a bad marriage for around 15 yrs. Mainly the old parallel lives routine that is so common. H is (was) passive-aggressive and conflict avoider. We never did anything together. We took separate vacations--actually I took the vacation (usually with family) while he worked. He did not even want to go on an all-expenses paid cruise to Alaska that my brother paid for when he sold his .com biz. (Told me later he did not want to go ANYWHERE with me). He really hated me...stored up 19 yrs of anger. (and believe me, while not the perfect wife, I am not that much of a b**ch; in fact I was pretty forgiving of some serious scrapes this pillar of the community got into).I accidentally find out H is involved with EA. He says he enjoys being with her (not PA--I had them followed enough that I am sure of that, LOL). She was getting a divorce, 16 yrs younger, needy, used my H for a meal ticket, was upfront with him that she did not want to get serious with ANYONE; wanted to date lots of guys. My H later told me that he thought if he did enough stuff for her and bought her enough things that she would "come around"--NOT, LOL. I begged and pleaded for H not to leave. Told him he had to give her up, go to counselling, and cut down on his work hours. Within a month he was gone...told me what furniture he wanted, rented an apt and left. During that month after I found out, we got along very well, but he did not seem to care. (of course, she was waiting in the wings, or so he thought).After H left, I bought every book known to man and implemented 180's which H noticed (Divorce Busting very helpful at this time to me). Within one month of him leaving, he was "confused, didn't know what he wanted". We had regular times together twice a week (our 17 yr old D went to his apt every weekend)...on Wed we all had dinner together, and on Sun nite, when he brought her home, I cooked dinner. We talked quite a bit, but he was adamant about not coming home. His parents practically disowned him; our whole family was disgusted. I set my goal on us becoming friends again.After abt 6 months I finally succumbed in one of our make-out sessions (these had resumed after he had been gone abt 2 wks, but I would not let him go all the way)....we had really HOT sex.But he did not want it all that much...maybe at best, 2x/month. (He was not getting it elsewhere either. We had agreed that as long as we were still married we would not have sex with anyone else. But I am not naive, so I did have him watched pretty carefully by a friend who is a PI, who told me that there was not anything much going on with EA...she was just using him; they were going back to their respective apts after dinner one night a wk and he went over to her place abt once a wk and took takeout for her and her kids and stayed till around 8 and then went home). From what he told me later when he was in a tell-all mood and trying to get me back, he said he had been chasing her, and she was indifferent at times, and at times she would let him take her out. From what I learned later, she had a couple sugar daddies who gave her money, paid for things, etc that she kept on the string. Beats me why these guys would let her do it as she wasn't all that great to look at and was uneducated and kinda rough (my H has a Masters so he is not totally ignorant).Anyway, we would have sex, he would tell me he did not want me to get any ideas that he was coming back just because we had sex; he would say he was not coming back to the kind of marriage we had before. I would tell him I did not want that kind of marriage either, but we could have a new marriage. I printed out excerpts from HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS etc. but H would have none of it. H would NOT go to counselling either (said counsellors were the scum of the earth!).We rock along for 15 months in limbo. We have a nice xmas together (he came over xmas eve and spent nite and we went to relatives the next day). We go to a couple of rock concerts and have a good time. Things are going along so well I asked him out to a couple more things and he turned me down. Here we are lovers, and yet I am not even comfortable calling him (the whole time we were separated I basically Plan A'ed him, but did not pursue much; just worked on being his friend and supportive since he was basically always in a bad attitude altho he tried not to show it around me--but at work I hear he was a real pain). My counsellor, Michele W-D said I was in a unique situation and could pursue a little and see what happened. After he declined my invitations, I backed WAY off. Decided here we were still married, were lovers, and still so uncertain with each other, and him still seeing EA. I had had enough of the limbo. It was now 16 months of separation and looked like it would go on for a long time. I had heard that these MLCers can go 1-5 yrs in the fog.I will post this and then continue the saga in my next post. I told you this was loooooonnng.Carol

Part 2.All the time we were separated, I had gone from very low self-esteem, to gaining it back. I looked great (lost a lot of weight), was involved in several civic functions (on 2 boards of directors; one the Opera and the other the Civic Chorale--H was amazed). H saw all this and was impressed with my changes. I got a life (we kidded that he left to get a life, but I was the one who GOT one...all he got was more work..and that is what he basically did, worked, worked, worked...he and his parents own a biz and his mom, who basically runs things, just piled more and more work on him!)Ok, so I am fed up with having a semi-lover with none of the benefits. I want someone who is around, who I can see more often (H not really asking me out all that much; an occasional over-nighter but no real what I would call STEADY dating...remember he does not want me to get the idea he is coming back).So I back off. I guess you would call it my LRT (last resort technique). I hook up with a "coach" who has done a lot of studies on these WS. He tells me things that I say, NO WAY will my H do that--but my H DOES IT! I am blown away. So I pay really close attention to the coach.The main thing he stresses is that the WS has to feel that he is losing you. Just that slight feeling that maybe he does not HAVE you anymore. My H was always SO sure that I wanted him back; that I would be there on the back burner for him...he had thrown me away 16 months previously, but still thought I would be there.We have become friends...he confides in me his troubles, etc. We are having fun together again. But suddenly he senses that I am not as interested in him...I might have other interests...he might be losing me.I did this by a lot of "little" things, that just built up. For example, I would call him on my cell phone and say I would pick up our D on Sun nite since I was "out and about" and how long did it take to get to his place from X town? (knowing that he knew I had flown down to Galveston for the day in a private plane with a "new" friend a couple wks before, and this friend, a guy, just happened to live in X town). BTW, I did not mention to H that I had been flying, our D happened to mention it to him, LOL. My H did not have to know that I was calling from the driveway at my house on my cell, and was not in X town. He assumed I was in X town. It is all in their perception.I started being less available to H. I cancelled some of our regular "dates". Instead of going out to dinner with him and our D on Wed nites, I would drop D off at his work, tell him I had other plans and would pick her up in a few hrs at his place (D told me later H had asked her where I was going, and D said she didn't know, but that I said I was going to see what kind of trouble I could get into and I may have gone to the riverboats in Shreveport--actually I was just killing time in town but he didn't need to know that). Or I was late getting home on Sun nites to cook dinner for him when he brought D in (he did not have to know I was sitting up at the 7-11 drinking cappuchino by myself!).I am very talkative person. H and I would email or IM often (he initiated). I started being brief--to his 4 emails I would write wordy email back once; the others I was brief. On IM's I would cut them off first...same with phone calls. He was stupified. Once he even emailed me back (after I had given very brief reply) and said he could not believe I did not have more to say.He sent email wanting to come and spend night on one Fri nite and work in yard the next day--I declined, saying I had plans, but it would be GREAT if he could come over and work in the yard the next day, but not to get there TOO early as I would be out late on Fri (I went to a play in town by myself, but he didn't need to know that). He showed up the next day to work in the yard! (very unusual as he basically neglected our house/yard while he was gone).The next wk he asked on Wed nite (on our regular dinner date with D) if he could spend the nite on Fri nite--I said OK. Fri nite I am sick so have to cancel. He comes over on Sat. to get D, walks in, my pager is buzzing. He brings it to me, I look at it, then go into ofc and make phone call. (He later told me he heard me say, "I'll call you back later" which is one of HIS lines, to the EA when she would call the ofc and I would be standing there. He says it is ironic that he got me the pager for xmas and other guys are calling me on it...NOT, he just thought that; actually I had paged myself, and then called an imaginary person....again it is perception).While he is waiting for D to get her stuff together, I get a phone call. It is a guy. Guy leaves msg on machine and is saying that the Doobies concert sounds great. Remember H had TURNED DOWN going to the Doobies concert with me. Person calling is "coach" and it is a setup so that H perceives I have other interests. Actually I went on 2 "dates" while separated--both times with friends, who knew I loved H and wanted to get back with him, so not sure you would even call them dates.The next weekend H came over and spent the night Fri nite, and the next day we had to take our really old dog to the vet and have her put down. She had had a really bad stroke. We both bawled like babies, and it was a really bonding time. We brought her back and buried her in the back yard.On Wed the following week, while having dinner together out with D, he said he would like to get our D on Fri nite; if I wanted to bring her over and spend the nite that was OK but he had to work the next day. I said that worked out well for me as I could drop her off as I had plans.I emailed his daughter (my stepdaughter) who works for him for the address of her lawyer (her H left her). Asked how long it took to get into this lady lawyer. Step-D says it takes quite a while because she is good.I call lawyer, get an apt for the next wk. Email step-D back and say, hey it's amazing, but I got an appt. for next wk! And maybe she should not tell her daddy, that I will when the time is right. (of course I was counting on her TELLING her daddy, which she DID of course, LOL)I will post this and continue the saga in another post.Carol
PS. I hope this is helpful. I kept a diary so I am referring back to it.

Carol!This is so fascinating. I can't wait to read the rest. I've heard such good things about Michelle Werner-Davis. And I'm DYING to know who "coach" is.Please HURRY!On pins and needles ...
Jo

Part 3.
On Fri nite I show up at H's work with D to leave her with him. I am dressed to kill. I make sure H goes to get D's suitcase out of trunk and sees my slinky black cocktail dress and suitcase there...I am off to the riverboats to see Doobies! (remember I asked H first to go, but he DECLINED). I do not mention my suitcase but say I do not know abt cooking dinner on Sun as I do not know what I will be doing, so we will forget having dinner together then. BTW, EA is at ofc talking to step-D (they are great friends; why not they are close in age, LOL). I am pleasant, but stay only a few minutes..I am anxious to get to the concert! Actually I did go to the concert, but by myself of course. I came back that nite too!On Mon, I get email from H asking me out to dinner at steakhouse on Fri night, and for me to spend the night too!...mind you, H is notorious for not asking me out till the last minute...asking me out this far ahead is UNHEARD of. I do not answer email till Tues nite (I know this will drive him WILD). Tell him that I would enjoy dinner, but can't spend the night as I have "plans" early the next day.H says he will take what he can get, and from this point on, I see a RADICAL change in him. He mentions that he had a WAKEUP call on the weekend.Now H is in HOT PURSUIT. It is unbelievable.H is so solicitous with me. He can not do enough for me. But I still distance. I cannot just fall in his arms, or it will not last!We have a great dinner, a great talk afterward sitting in the car at his apt till late (H is notorious for yawning abt 8:30 and being ready for bed...this nite he is talking avidly and doesn't want me to go). Finally I leave, but it is late.The next day I am supposed to have plans, so I decide I will go to town and hit the bookstore. I get up late cause I got in late from having dinner with H. At 12 noon my phone rings. It is H. I do not answer.About 30 min. later he drives up (he lives abt 30 miles away). I look out there (I am still in PJ's), go to door and say, what are you doing here? He says he came for the lawnmower (YEAH RIGHT). BTW, H has key to house; I never changed the locks because I always wanted him to feel like it was his home still).He gets the lawnmower, then comes in and we chat a little. Told him I postponed my plans till later cause I got in so late.Then somehow it all comes tumbling out. Says he is a [censored], says he was SO stupid, says he wants me back. I am dumbfounded. He talks and talks; spills his guts. I say I will have to think about it as I had been to a lawyer about a divorce because I thought that was what HE wanted. He says NO, he wants us to get back together. We talk for a few hours and then he leaves. (He later told me he had come to the house thinking I was gone to check and see if my suitcase was gone...if it had been he said he would have been desolate)I told him I did not know what I would be doing on Sun., so we would cancel me cooking him dinner and just to bring D back anytime.Sun. I am in town killing time around the time he would be bringing D back. I get a page. H is actually only one who has my pager number so I know it is him. I ignore it. I get another page. Finally I call him on my cell phone.He is crying, he is saying he had only got 3 hrs sleep nite before, he is saying he had conference call with his 2 daughters telling them he was going to try to win me back, etc, and that they had better treat me with the upmost respect. He asks me if I am intimate with other guy...says he has his address and phone number and feels like going over there and punching him out (this is SO UNLIKE my H). I tell him it is none of his business as he threw me away 16 months ago and dumped me for EA. He says he knows, but he is still my H. Actually I saw the "other" guy once, and it was just a friends thing as he knew I wanted back with my H...but my H seems to think we were having a flaming affair.I find out later my H has driven 60 miles round trip that morning to check and see if my car was home early (wanting to see if I spent the night "out"). I never dreamed he would go out of his way to check on me (coach had warned me he would do this, and I said, "No way")He says he is calling from my house. I say I am parked along the side of the road taking the call (I was). He says he is going to go to EA's house and finish it with her. I tell him he does not have to do that...everyone needs friends. He says he has to do it, because he does not ever want me to worry about her. I say, whatever, but I am not telling you what to do (he said before that I am too controlling...actually he is just passive-aggressive and they all think the spouse is controlling even tho we might not be!) So we hang up.I will continue this in another post. I didn't realize I was going to be so wordy. Hopefully this will help others have hope, even when things seem dark.Carol

OMG!!!!!!I can't stand it when you stop ... I'm DYING HERE!!!I cannot believe how things turned around, this perception jealousy thing is VERY powerful ... I had NO idea!I'm hittin the hay, but gettin up early to read the rest. I hope all my buds (BS) here get to read this too. It feels SO SO good to have a WS chase the BS.I'm smiling so big, thanks Carol!Lv,
Jo

Carol, thanks, this is amazing... I may want to talk to michele w-d... I have her book divorce busting... and have put forth a bit of her prescribed methods... but it did not do me much good... yet... but I see the advantage.s WOW... That is waht I need.. but I am only 4 months into the game and getting tired... my h only now broke off the bs with the ow... this is amazing I know... with help of a mb therapist in houston... and her still being with her H.. the ow that is... my h didn't like being 2nd fiddle...anyway... my h says he is a victim, and I am awful and drove him away... baloney...but anyway... I am hoping.. I appreciate your posts. and would like to print and save.. these are incredible... I may employ some of the techniques...does your h know your tricks now?HOney

Part 4
I get home, and a little while later get email from H that he has done what he said he would do (broken it off with EA). Found out later he told her that they needed to break things off, she said, well can we still be friends, and he said, "No, I have lied to Carol too much and I do not want to lie anymore." And she said, well whatever makes you happy. He told her he had been unhappy for a long time (and he had, I could tell by his depression and the way he treated others...at the time he told me he did not feel guilty abt leaving me and getting involved with EA, but later admitted that he knew it was wrong and felt really bad abt it...H has always been a faithful churchgoer.)I also found out later that he came back to my house that night just to see if I had come home.From this point on, H is pursuing me like crazy; I am backing off. I used reverse psychology on him. I would tell him things like, "Just because things didn't work out with EA, there are some nice single ladies out there, let me introduce you to some of my nice single friends." I would say things like, "I know what I want now, and I do not want the kind of marriage we had. There are issues you have that have nothing to do with me (I was referring mainly to his passive-aggressiveness and the continual problems at work between him and his mother, who is the boss)." I would tell him I had worked a lot on myself with self help books, etc. (meanwhile he had not even cracked a book).He said he wanted to change, and wanted me to suggest some books for him to read. He said he would do ANYTHING to win me back. Said he didn't think he could ever make up for the pain he had caused me, but he knew now how that pain felt (thinking I was interested in someone else). He told me that he had cried out to God to forgive him, and he wasn't going to let the devil get him. Mind you, he had been SO DEPRESSED and in such a raunchy attitude for the past 1 1/2 yrs. He would tell me such drivel abt how I was selfish and controlling and he never got to do what he wanted to our whole marriage. He was singing a different tune now. Said that 90 percent of problems in our marriage was HIS fault (which is quite a change from EVERYTHING being MY fault!).Actually he even told me he felt like he had been in a fog for the past 2 yrs. I could not believe it when he said that; it was straight out of the MLC handbook!H starts asking me out all the time. He was calling me alot, emailing, you name it (what a change). Finally, after he sent me an email asking me to go to 3 different functions (Oak Ridge Boy's concert, Opera benefit which he had declined before telling me he didn't associate with those society people, and my chorale concert which he had declined the last one that I sang in and said it was not high on his priority), I told him to BACK OFF because he was pushing me too hard and he would lose me (this on advice of coach). He emailed me back and said he would back off a little; he would give ME time, because I had given him time (I waited on him A LONG time...over a yr without much encouragement).Coach said I had been giving my H too much "emotional nookie" for quite some time and to back off. H had to feel the lack of it. Very critical these first few weeks to not give back more than about 70 percent emotionally or H would leave again, and probably be gone for good.I was very careful. I was determined I would not go thru this mess ever again. For 1 1/2 yrs I was totally depressed and unhappy because H was gone (even tho I didn't let him see that side of me).Meanwhile, H is being SOOOOOO romantic. I am getting mushy cards in the mail twice a week. He sent a dozen roses (he had NEVER sent me flowers before). He is calling me up all the time and also emailing me. One that meant a lot to me was when he first told me he loved me. He said he had not told me that in a very long time, but he truly did love me. He said I was a pearl of great price and he didn't want to lose me.People, this man did not tell me he loved me for probably 9 yrs. You do not know how much it meant to me to hear him say that to me!But I still held back. Meanwhile, H says he wants to go to counselling with me (FAINT). I set up counselling session via telephone with coach...on communication in marriage (which is something H and I REALLY lacked). We had a great session. Coach hooked us up with John Gottman's book and we began reading it to each other as our "homework". H asked for my recommendation on books also, and I set him up with the Mars/Venus book.Things rock along for a few months, and H is slowly winning me back, hehe. But I am still holding back and have not told him we are getting back together.More later.Carol

AAAAAAAGGGHHHH! This is like if I saw the Fellowship of the Ring movie without having read the next book!!!!I am in awe!

Part 5
Good thing I am self-employed. I can sleep in, hehe. But I want to get this finished tonight, then maybe I can answer some questions later.H asks me if I will go to Marriage Enrichment dinner at his church. I say yes. We go have nice dinner, and guess what? The topic is the book, HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS. I laugh and tell H I have already read that book many times, LOL. In fact I tried to tell him some of the stuff in there last yr! H says, but I was not ready to hear it then...NOW I am! H pays lots of attention to session and we have good discussion later.H starts coming over and doing things at the house. He has let the yard go for around 15 yrs (we have 3/4 acre) so there is much to do! I want the fish pond redone, so we start on that...he goes and buys 400. bucks worth of rock and redoes the waterfall; we get a new liner, it is looking great...H says he wants it to be nice for me because I so enjoy going out there and sitting and listening to the water. Can you believe this folks? I am in heaven. He wasn't this attentive when we were going together the first time 20 yrs ago!But finally, when I see that H has made some changes himself, and has worked on problems we have discussed that need to be taken care of so that our marriage could have a good chance, I tell him to give his 30 day notice at his apt and that he can come home at the end of that time. (this is 2 months after he first told me he wanted to come back). I wanted him to wait another month to cement things, as coach said that there needs to be about a 4 month time frame where you are gradually restoring the emotional "giving" to the WS...you cannot do it all at once or you risk them leaving again. After this time, you have cemented that love in there pretty good, and the marriage will most likely last.3 wks later H moved back in. About a month later, H, D and I drove out to Calif. for a 2 week camping vacation reunion at the beach with my family. Mind you, H had not taken off more than maybe a day in years. I could not believe it when he did this. He said it was important to him to do this for me...he was a little apprehensive about how my family would react to him, but it went well. I had told my family how good he was treating me, and that was what they were concerned with. They knew how miserable I had been while separated. My dad said he was so glad to see me smile now!H has been moved back 7 months now. We had such a bad marriage before, that I could only dream abt what a good one was like. I still pinch myself thinking I am in a dream. We truly DO have a new relationship. I knew I wanted one like my parent's who have been married almost 60 years. H and I had such a dysfunctional marriage before....I learned so much from all the different books I read, that it has helped me tremendously now in knowing what to do. I have seriously considered going back to school for my Masters and becoming a marriage counsellor. I think there are a lot of marriages that could be saved. Divorces are too prevalent.One thing I asked H when he was trying to win me back was, "what will we do if it goes back like it was?". He said, well now we will TALK about it and work it out....before he would avoid conflict and we would not talk; and his anger would just store up. Now he is much more understanding. We talk about how we each are, about our little foibles so to speak. Things that bothered us before do not bother us anymore...I guess you would say we are more tolerant.We spend a lot of time together now. Before, he said if I decided I was going to go to his office and work that he would shut the doors and close it down (he did not want me around). Now he wants me to do sales for him, which I have been doing on a part time basis--it helps us keep connected. And we are doing a joint biz that is related to my other biz (in the craft field).He complained before that he never felt equal to me in our marriage. I always thought it was like we were on opposite sides fighting against each other, not with each other.Now we feel more like a team. We are going to church every Sunday together...we did not do this before as I was raised in a totally different religion. This is drawing us together as well and forging our bond.I know it will not be a totally smooth sailing from here on out...we are going to have our problems along the way just as everyone does, if for no other reason than the Mars/Venus thing. But we now have the tools to deal with those problems.I hope my little saga has been somewhat helpful. A year ago I was in the darkest despair. I was at the bottom of the pit. My H and I had been separated 16 months, had even been having the greatest sex EVER for around a year, and still we were in LIMBO, with no end in sight (he admitted later we would have gone on like that for a LONG time...he had the best of both worlds...hot sex/companionship with me WHEN he wanted it; able to see EA when he wanted; able to do what he wanted because he lived by himself--why would he want to give THAT up?).And look at me today. My H tells me many times a day he loves me; he is affectionate (he knows this is one of my EN's); we talk; we work together as a team; our D has her daddy home all the time!LIFE IS GOOD! Don't give up! It is worth it.Carol

carol,
You have given me a glimmer of hope. Thank you.
Made an appt!!!!!!
jan[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: jcan60 ][ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: jcan60 ]

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Thank you ... thank you...I wasn't on boards last night and actually <gasp> have to teach today... so I hadn't seen this yet...Thanks resilient and daybreak for the bumps...Cali

WOW!!!Carol, thank you for sharing and keeping the journal to refer back to. I wish I would've kept a journal for myself through all of this.
Could you elaborate more on this "Coach", please?And what type of craft business do you have may I ask? I have tried doing the craft business from home and have not been successful thus far. Email if you would rather not discuss it here.Thanks for the time you put into posting your story.What made you come here in Aug of this past year?Dawn

What an inspirational success story!! Thank you so much for taking the time to write it all down for us!
BH

Daybreak, in answer to your questions:I actually came to this site a few yrs back, but I only registered in Aug. because, if I remember correctly, I wanted to post to someone. I usually hung out on the Divorce Busting BB and posted there, mainly in Midlife. I was counselling with Michele W-D, so that seemed like the logical place, since it is her site.I am in the designing/publishing side of the craft biz.I was making progress, but not fast enough (my counsellor said I was on my H's timetable, NOT mine). At 16 months limbo (and considering that we were lovers, with a LOT of interaction), I was just tired of the uncertainty and decided to try this coach who had been recommended to get FAST results. He had developed a pretty radical approach of 180's etc. I decided to give it the old college try and if it didn't help, I was prepared to go on with my life and divorce H (after all, that was what he wanted, wasn't it??).Hope this answered your questions. I posted my story mainly to give people hope that there are some successes out there. It may take awhile, and you have to be patient. But the outcome can be really great, as in my case. Look at the good marriage I have now, whereas before I was in a lousy relationship with the same guy for YEARS.Carol

Carol,Can I please email you? If so, can you place your email here. Jo

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: carolkh ]

Hi Carol! What an enthralling story! Great to see the good guy win sometimes. You must live close to me since you mentioned the boats in Shreveport, we live in Longview. In fact, we went to the casinos last weekend. Thanks for the happy ending![ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

Melody, email me at the above addy and we will compare notes. We were at boats last Sat!Carol

Hi TA and allI was also a member of Michele Weiner-Davis' www.divorcebusting.com club. It not only saved my marriage which was on death row, it really turned me into a much better and understanding person.Michele has written a new book titled Divorce Remedy. And apparently it has a great section on dealing with a spouse in MLC. Michele is solution oriented and doesn't look to place blame, on who's right or wrong. She is very, very pro marriage. It is well worth it, to take a look at her site. You have nothing to lose, but, everything to gain. It worked and still works for me.

Carol, Thanks for sharing your story. You showed a lot of courage and had good support. I am glad you and your H are in recovery. Your story brought up many of the points and issues that are being asked about on these boards. It also showed how you dealt with it and your H's reaction. This has been a valuable lesson for us. Mahalo,
L.

Yes, I agree with everyone carolkh, THANKS AGAIN FOR SHARING your story! It was inspiring and insightful and funny even though what you were going through was not funny at the time. Wow. Even my H (does not post on MB), said he wanted me to print your story and save it in case he ever needs to give a BS advice in the future... Cool, huh?

bump

Your story was amazing. It does give hope...I just don't think that it could happen for me. My H's Ow moved 1200 miles to be with him. She bought a house and he is now living with her. He moved out in Aug. Says he left because he didn't love me anymore....3 weeks later there is OW. Within 5 weeks he is saying that the relationship is progressing.....he bought her jewlery and took her on my anniversary trip. We have been married 20 yrs....been together 22. He has no desire to see a counselor or even attempt anything to reconcile....we get along ok as long as we don't talk about the tramp. I think it's over.....I am not sure what I can do to change things....I have lost weight....started school and I am here whenever my two teenagers need me....my relationship with them has grown and they are great. My H on the other hand told me 2 weeks ago how depressed he was and how he can't sleep. He doesn't see his kids....I know that has to killhim...but he does nothing to change it. He also asked me last week if the boys can start to see him at his new place.....needless to say...I said NO! I have court orders that back that up.Anyway.........glad that things are going good for you! I'd love to hear any ideas or suggestions....I know that I have to move on....and I am doing that.....but sometimes I just wish that he would dump her and come back home. Pretty bad that I am still thinking that Huh??? Not all the time...just once in awhile.
Max

Carol,Your story has inspired me and I am happy that your marriage is much better than it ever was. I want so much for my marriage to be the best it can.While reading your story, I can't help to think if my W would act like your husband. Though I think she has Passive-agressive tendacies, and she is in an EA, she does not seem to be one to persue (I have always persued from the start). And I am not sure if I went "dark" if that would draw her closer or push her away. I have tested the waters on this a little and I seem to get mixed results.However, I want to thank you for sharing your story. I am very impressed with your strength and determination and the way you handled everything. Thank you.[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: Astray Dragon ]

Carol,Your the women!!!!! I thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing!!! I just found out about an PA my husband of nine months!!!! has been having for the past 3 months!
I went looking for an apartment...and found one...in your opinion if I am approved should I leave.....the truth is I love the man we have two children 2 and 7 and if I could trust him and he would respect me I would want to make it work. But he won't even admit the affair was physical, wont even admit it was an affair, refers to it as inappropriate friendship.....WHAT!!!!! 
Anyway pray for me and my marriage....And thanks again ever so much!

Just wanted to say that was a wonderful story and I can only pray that my situation turns out as well. I am on the beginning end of it though. He hasn't even left the house yet. Pray for me that I can be strong the way you were and not cave in to what I want but think about what God wants for me and what I need.Best Wishes to all .... Your in my prayers.

Carol-WOW! What a story! I usually post on the divorced/divorcing forum but was told to read your post. My WH and I have been separated for a year, we will be divorced in a month. My WH is an alcoholic who left me for a little girl of 21, I am 33, he is 32. They are still together, but he does really weird things that make me wonder how sure he is of what he is doing. Your story has me even more intrigued because in many ways it is similar. When he first left I was pregnant with our fourth child and did everything wrong, I took all his verbal abuse and believed everything he said to me. I begged and pleaded to no avail. After months of him threatening to file for divorce I did to protect myself and the kids financially. I have both Plan A and B'd, but haven't had any clear success with either. What I have noticed is that as the divorce gets closer and I get stronger and seem to be moving on, he seems to be waivering. He is offering to do more for me and seems to be showing up more often, lingering, talking, more. We haven't had sex in months, however, only a week and a half ago I was asked to go to the movies and he volunteered to watch the kids at our house, this too is something he has been avoiding. Anyway, when I got home he was sleeping in our bed half dressed. When I woke him he commented that he could stay there all night and seemed to be in no hurry to leave. He made small talk and just watched me. I made no moves. I think it left him unsettled because in the past I would have done something.
This past weekend he had our kids. He lingered a lot longer than usual when picking up and dropping off. He also stopped home to get things he'd forgotten (nothing necessary of course) twice.
Our divorce is getting so close and I would love to stop it however, I don't want to push things. I also know that he thinks I may be seeing someone and yes I have played it up. Secret dates, small gifts, burned candles in the bedroom. You are right, it does work. Anyway, as someone who's been there do you have any suggestions? I am so happy for your new relationship. It gives me hope!K

Hi Carol,I saw you also replied to AKA Quakermom and I see that many have been encouraged by your story here, so I had to pop in to hopefully reinforce what you've started here.For those of you who don't know me (there's so many new MBers on a daily basis) my story parallels Carol's. It isn't just fluke what occured with her H or mine, there are also numerous other "in recovery" MBers who have had the experience of their WS moving closer to them as BS becomes not such a sure thing anymore. All of these techniques Carol's coach recommended can be done in Plan A. Nothing she did was disrespectful, or deceitful or playing games. She simply interjected situations that caused her H to think about what life might be like without her, afterall, that is what his life would be like and his experience would be, should they divorce. She made sure he had the opportunity to see what it would be like to live without her before he made a mistake he really might not be able to fix. It also gave her the added benefit(and I think this is one of the reasons she can attest to such a successful recovery, I know it is a huge reason for my own marriage's success)of being assured that her H stayed in the marriage because he CHOSE to.I must say that I wasn't near as patient as Carol was with her H. When my H couldn't decide whether he wanted to stay married or not(affair was over, he's still depressed in IC and has other issues her needs to work out as well)we decided it would be best to separate. I went to work on Plan ala Carol. I never had to go as far as she did (slinky evening gowns in the back seat [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) Going to a Parent's Without Partners meeting was just about enough to really jolt my H into reality. I also made sure I had things to do. He never asked for details and I didn't just give them out. I did things alone like Carol did (shopped without the kids in tow a lot of the time [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ).After a 2 month separation and H feeling more and more what all of our lives would be like should we divorce, he came home and agreed to a list of items I was requiring to begin our recovery. We have a wonderful marriage now, the marriage we each hoped we'd have when we started out. This method Carol was instructed in by her coach is a viable method, very congruent with Plan A, that can be used as a catalyst to change the dynamics of what is going on in the stalemate of the marriage.I'd give my eye teeth in a bet that if more BS tried this, we'd see a lot less continued suffering here at MBers and a lot more marriages on the fast road to healing. Of course normal disclaimer, JMHO! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

That's a great story. Gives me strength and look to the positive results of all the effort.Also could use the help of a coach like yours. How do I get one?I'd really appreciate it if you could send me email. I feel that H is on the verge of leaving....OW want him but uses the waiting technique...makes him go nuts about her. I need help bad. -confused50x
-zyezebel@yahoo.com

Hi Carolkh,
I also linked a poster over on the EN board to your story... Please pop in and speak for yourself on some issues re: "manipulation" that have arisen (only when/IF you have the time)... thanks!http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=007453

After reading this I do have a little hope left--the only problem is my husband and I are actually divorced. We have talked some, but not much. He is with another woman now who he says is just a friend. He has also told me he just needs some time to work things out. Not much hope left for us. I am very happy for you.

This thread was interesting...but it made me wonder about something...Do you guys think that a male WS, versus a female WS, typically need different things to get them interested in the relationship? Is it that simple even? The things I saw described here...they wouldn't have gotten me back...I would have just left in desolation...is it because I'm female? Or because of my personality type, maybe? I needed loving support and encouragement, not the "thrill of the chase".What do you guys think? Could the solution be gender-related?

TowardsTheFuture - The things I saw described here...they wouldn't have gotten me back...I would have just left in desolation...is it because I'm female? Or because of my personality type, maybe? I needed loving support and encouragement, not the "thrill of the chase".J.R. - I don't know... If you assume that you had some feelings for your BS, and that BS wasn't isolating you, withdrawing from you, or treating you BADLY (recall all the things that this couple DID do together) - would you still feel the same way? I think it's about an entire state of mind, not necessarily a "chase" - the state of mind for the BS being "I am confident - I am strong - I can live without you, happily. I'd like to do it with you - and we can have a great life... but that's only a preference. I don't NEED you. I'm a complete person who can and will be loved."I think that as human being, we find that attitude hard to resist, especially when combined with other factors, such as sexual attraction, etc. I do think it's a hard line to walk - between neglect and being just inaccessible enough. When combined with Plan A, I think it's a killer combo that NO-ONE is going to be able to walk away from easily.

I see what you mean...My BS, although none of the chase stuff happened...he's the kind of guy that can take what life throws at him and come out on top,you know? So the strong, confident part was still there...but he didn't deny the pain he was feeling, either.

Hi Carol, Great story and very inspiring....I have to say that when I started to do some of the things you said when I was in Plan B things turned around for us.When I went to Plan B my H immediately called and wanted to come home....it was only after a few days....I said "you've only been out of the house for 2 days and I'm just starting to feel better,please reread my letter"....that REALLY upset him. I really meant it too.I also went on a trip with girlfriends on his weekend with the kids....did not say a word but he asked the kids about it.IN my case Plan A (5mos)just allowed my H to fence sit and I think he would've gone on like that forever.....he had us both at that point. Anyway, thanks for sharing and I highly recommend Michelle's books......like mrthrbrd(sp?) said it's a great combo with Plan A/B LU

Carol, thanks for telling us your story. My best friend had all ready suggested doing what you did to your husband to me. You see, I was one of these good girls (Southern Baptist Minster Kid)I saved myself for marriage. (Alot of good it did me)My best friend thinks it will kill him if he thinks that I am getting on with my life and dating other men. It's an ego thing. Well, you never know. May give it a few weeks and then try it for a while. Good Luck! You have given us all hope.

Interesting stuff and it makes sense, and I am sure it works often, and well...even if it doesn't work it reveals the truth of the relationship...but I am curious, it means your H (or w) comes back sort of as a jealousy thing, and implies your H is not a very honest (emotionally) persone, elsewise why the need to be manipulated back, it feels a little like a control thing even (don't want anyone else to have my woman). I do think the kids can be a big draw, but what happens when they are grown? So I wonder if this is only the beginning, then you buckle down and figure out what happened in the first place, because something made em wander, and no reason for them not to do it again, after the "honeymoon" period is over, if that isn't fixed.

SNL, I think an important thing to remember, is that you have to GET THEM BACK so you CAN work on the problems that led to the detaching. Take for example my H. Before he woke up, he was unwilling to go to counselling or to read any counselling or self-help books; he was basically not willing to put any work into the marriage (altho he WAS willing to sleep with me and have ME do nice things for HIM). I would ask him what his emotional needs were so I could work on that, and he would say he didn't know if he WANTED me to supply his emotional needs. Like he told me after attending a marriage enrichment at his church (after he woke up), "I was not READY to hear about His Needs, Her Needs before, but I AM NOW."After a 19 yr marriage (21 1/2 yrs now) I did not want a divorce, but then again, neither did I want the same kind of marriage I had had the past 15 yrs or so. I had studied so much, and worked on myself so much, not only with relationship books, but with self-help books as well, that I felt like I was beginning to be prepared to do what it took to make a marriage work. BUT, I had to have a partner, preferably in residence!Territorial triggers are very strong in most people. Of course, as soon as my H abandoned me, I could have filed for divorce and gone out and started dating...and probably found a real live boyfriend. Then when H's territorial triggers started rearing their head, I could have said, "too bad, too late" and gone back to my boyfriend! Instead I chose to wait on my H for almost 18 months after he abandoned me, with according to him basically no hope of getting back together. I chose to do what I did; it had a good result, and I really am not sorry I took that course.I have noticed the guys are the ones who think what I did is manipulative (another thread on emotional needs debating that right now, LOL). Wonder why that is??Carol

I think guys think it is manipulative cause.....well, it is manipulative [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Females may be more accomodating cause they play these "games" all the time....But I am not saying it is wrong, just that any manipulation comes at a price, that price is less committment. However, I understand completely, you have to have em back, and their attention, in order to DO anything else [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I am just curious if the folks who promote this fully explain the downside to those they counsel. Ideally a man and woman choose each other without any coercion at all, completely freely cause they want nothing else in live...not cause of kids, not cause of territorial triggers (great imagery btw), not cause of fear over finding someone "better" (settling) and so forth....real life doesn't seem to allow this too much though, and lots of other pressures intrude...I realize I am way out on the curve with such things, and maybe I think too much for my own good. But I am pretty sure I would not do this, I would not want someone back on those terms, I would want them to choose on their own.... but then again when I left (I am wsh) I was done (I don't make such errors, the affair was wrong, but I was already gone emotionally), and unless I can find some reason to change my mind (and losing my w is not one of them), something that shows me my analysis of my marriage (and how we fit) is in error, then I am probably done.... I was contemplating how I might feel under the same circumstances as your H, I don't think it would do anything to me (but who knows, till one is there), I would just be glad she seemed to be ok (unless I knew it was a sham of course)....I have never been afraid of losing someone per se, that is possessive, and I don't love that way (or want to be loved that way). If someone is happy without me, I just figure great, more power to em, and go about my business...I guess I am not manipulable to much that way.What I am curious about is how much work does one do (like that) to get someone back, 18 months is such a long time, I am afraid I don't think it would be worth it to me, even if he did come back, too little, too late, and too much of an indicator of stuff I really don't ever want to deal with, or trust. I'd feel more comfortable having some other relationships first, especially after that many years, and becoming accostomed to such a empty marital relationship. Just to make sure I wasn't emotionally crippled...ya know?That is part of my difficulty now, after 29 years together, I figure I know how it is for us, and I don't really see anything changeing. I think we would make much better freinds, and ex-spouses, than continuing to be married and lonely. Is a little different here though (from your H), I never left, stopped the A, and readily participated in counselling, read all the books, etc.... In fact I found MB, and took a month to get her involved.....all I want is the truth re us, so we can get on with our lives, one way or another. But I really don't know why she wants to be married, after years of telling me she didn't (and in fact it hasn't been a safe nurturing place for either of us).... we have enough money she will be ok, kids are grown, I stress her, but she won't let go, I don't see how being divorced will be any different than being married, in terms of how we interract, or meet needs. Cripes we have been together a long time, and have 4 kids, I don't dislike her, and won't neglect her, we just stress each other too much cause of who we are....I am sure someone more like her would make her more happy that way, it is what I want for her.

SNL I think the difference in us, and the reason I was able to give it so long was that I am a very FIRM believer in those marriage vows. I think people get out of them FAR too easily. There are only a few scenarios where I think divorce is justifiable, so I really didn't feel like divorce was an option. I had married him till we were DEAD, not till he decided to have a MLC. He had always felt strongly abt marriage vows too.On the other hand, I knew we had problems, but had learned enough to know that we needed the tools to solve them...basic communication tools helped a lot. We also found that we were sooooo Mars/Venus it was uncanny....we both misinterpret each other a lot. So now if we are unclear, we hash it out honestly and try to discover the real truth of the matter.I will give you an example of our Mars/Venus problem.(this was before we got back together, but after he woke up). We were discussing my family reunion. H said, "I may have to come on Fri afternoon and leave on Sun. because of work (he and parents own biz, he is a workaholic, never taking any time off)." I got upset thinking, he will never take any time out from work for US; it will NEVER change. WHAT HE MEANT WAS: "I think so much of you that I am willing to pay beaucoup bucks for a plane ticket to come for just a few days; plus I think that is all your family will be able to stand me since I have treated you so badly by leaving you." Can you see why we have communications problems!! But we are WORKING on it.Carol

Oh My gosh. I cannot believe your story. You could be us. My H is passive-aggressive and a huge conflict avoidance person. He doesn't think counselling will do him any good and although we went to a few he wasn't really into it so I gave it up with him.He too blames me for all his problems. I have been ready to give up and throw in the towel but reading your story (I printed it off) has given me the inspiration to continue (that and a phone call from my daughter this morning!!). We don't have any children together so have no connection and I haven't seen him since Dec. 27th. We were "dating" up until that date, but I realized that he is so confused (MLC) he needs some time and space so I told him that although I loved him and am committed to our M I will give him the time and space he needs to make a decision.I didn't really think he would take me seriously but he has. So I too am getting on with my life (even to the point of looking for a new job in a different city). This is the hardest thing I have ever had to do and I don't want to give up so thanks for the story. Your advice and tips will certainly help me through this time.

You can give him his space, but make sure he gets a peek at how good you are looking these days, and what a full, active life you have. When my H left I immediately got a new haircut, started wearing makeup and dressing better, lost weight (the separation diet!), new modern style glasses and then contacts. I joined civic chorale, theater group, opera board of directors...in other words I GOT A LIFE. H was very intrigued.I used to drop by his ofc on occasion to mail packages and so he could glimpse of the new me. You might need to do something like this. Giving them space does not mean you totally ignore them (that is plan B or going dark). First you need to try Plan A! Plan B and going dark is for when all else has failed, and they need that jolt of NOT having you.Carol
PS. Yes I know, it was so funny that when H left everything bad that had ever happened to him for the past 19 years was MY fault. When he wanted back, he said 90 percent was HIS fault (he had pulled some doozies, believe me). I personally thought it was about 75 percent his fault (he was a mess with his p-a behavior), and others did too, but I had problems too, especially with not giving him EN's (didn't know about that stuff then).

Carol.I don't think it was manipulative at all. I agree with what you did. You we're showing your H what it would be like if he did Divorce you. I think you used a combination of things like Plan A/B... and the divorce busting techniques.
You also sought out a coach....I say. GOOD FOR YOU !!!!I wish yu would have been around when I was going through this stuff.... I was a plan a failure... yep. I did allllll the wrong things that drove my H away. Begging...crying... wanting to talk about it allllll the time.... ya know.But. I would like to know where you got your "COACH" from.Its too late for me now... we're divorced...anyhoot.... GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR H !!s

SNL and thinker talked to Steve today and we are basically going for a divorce protection. Steve told me to see a lawyer, see where my rights are in this state. I need to protect myself. So if you want to talk to SNL and get his thoughts, be more than happy for him to talk. He is getting what he wants. Going to give an analysis of todays conversation on Divorce/Divorce.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by thinker:
SNL and thinker talked to Steve today and we are basically going for a divorce protection. Steve told me to see a lawyer, see where my rights are in this state. I need to protect myself. So if you want to talk to SNL and get his thoughts, be more than happy for him to talk. He is getting what he wants. Going to give an analysis of todays conversation on Divorce/Divorce.<hr></blockquote>I am very saddened to hear this, Thinker. Just very sad. Right now I don't know what else to say.I am thinking of you two. And I will continue to pray for you both.I hope you're okay, Hon. I'll be looking for your post on D/D.Love,
Jo[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Resilient - This is what SNL wants. Steve said it today a little different. Steve basically said SNL you don't want to follow the path of MB. You don't want to meet Thinkers EN, SNL doesn't even want to do the homework of MB. I get so irrate when SNL posts here, that he has read all the books, is doing the stuff, why did Jennifer give up on SNL and said why don't you talk to Steve? Basically we have only talked to Steve maybe 4 or 5 times, and Steve told me to get a lawyer, to find out my rights. SNL doesn't seem to be disturbed by the actions of myself getting a lawyer. He actually seems to be relieved. He was so tense last night, and this morning. Now it is like something has been pulled off his shoulder.I thought SNL was a smart, strong man. But during this counseling, I have seen a man who is afraid. A man who is cowarding. Using MB to feed his mind, backup his negativism, to feed his endless analytical questions. Steve told us today, you have had plenty of time, and how much longer is it going to take, SNL didn't know. Steve basically said, you have gotten nowhere, SNL said, I am back sleeping in the same room, we spent 4 hours last night cleaning up his office, etc. I feel he is using me to organize everything for him. I asked him to take over the bills yesterday, cause I am under so much stress, and he said he won't. He said things will be in such a mess. You know, from those remarks, and the remarks on this thread, and what Steve said, I believe wholeheartedly, that SNL has been doing this to get me out of his life. This was mentioned before on some posts, and I finally got it today. He is putting me under so much stress, that I will get the lawyer, and SNL doesn't have to be the badguy. This made sense after STeve answered my question why SNL doesn't get a lawyer all this time and divorce. This also, makes me sad, that this man I loved, is not as strong as I thought. God will help him, if he has asked God for forgiveness. He has never stated he wants forgiveness from me. I wonder if he analyzes with God this affair was meant to be, that it was not lust, it was what God wanted? I wonder if he loves God, or what he feels about God, he has mistreated myself and the kids so badly these last 9 months, this man is not who I married. If you believe in God, pray for SNL for peace with God. Have SNL start talking nice about his mother too. I have to interact between the two of them and this is so stressful, but of course SNL just says answer the phone. Never says, would you please answer the phone, I really don't want to talk to mom now. Just demands it on me. Carol, take what SNL says with a grain of salt. He does not know what MB is, stated today. He doesn't know, how to follow the path when MB counselors tell him how. SNL does what SNL wants to do, and he is the WS, so they are quite selfish. Pray for unselfishness for SNL too.As you all know, my trust in men is gone, and my trust in the Lord has fallen. I am praying for my Love with God to come back.

Thinker, sorry to hear your news, but I am not really surprised after SNL's post to me. Do not worry, I did take his post to me with a grain of salt--I could tell that he and I were not on the same page! (very telling comment he made about wanting to try other relationships first....everyone on here knows that is one of the main things you want to avoid when separated as it REALLY complicates things.)Anyway, just wanted to drop you a quick note.Carol

BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow this was better then a soap opera! It had a happy ending! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I couldn't wait to read the next installment...I'm so glad this worked for you. I am going to try a little of it on my H and see what happens..maybe he needs to know that I am not going to be here at for him as easily as he thinks.

haha Marie, I even tried to be brief when I wrote this...there was so much more that I didn't even put in, LOL. But I did hit the high points.H and I continue to do well. He signed us up for another marriage enrichment dinner at his church. This is so totally amazing from a guy who would not even crack a relationship book, and said all counsellor's were the scum of the earth! I sure do love that man of mine! (and I sure let him know that all the time).Carol

up for Myownme

Bump for the rifraff [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

This is really interesting! Thanks for the "bump". I have some thinking to do about this, and then probably some questions. Am I wrong when I say "SNL" and "Thinke"r are married?.... even more interesting!Later,Pepper

yes, thinker and snl are married, been together 30 years, married for 24 + change, 4 kids, no previous infidelity, but pretty much 30 years of conflict, ending in withdrawal probably 5 years ago.

My thoughts exactly, very interesting. Some will and have called this manipulation. Perhaps it is in that there are motives behind doing this. But, isn't there motives behind any plan to save a marriage? jd

JDThe word "manipulation" doesn't frighten me. .... A woman manipulates every time she shimmies into a Victoria's Secret push-up bra! LOL! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] Well, I wonder if Carol has plans to share the truth about her 180 plan with her husband? Does one apply the MB principle of radical honesty after a successful 180 plan? Would she ever invite her husband to this forum so he could read the things she's written about her 180? Does the "coach" advise her on how to do this disclosure later on?What say you sir?Pepper

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Well, I wonder if Carol has plans to share the truth about her 180 plan with her husband? Does one apply the MB principle of radical honesty after a successful 180 plan? Would she ever invite her husband to this forum so he could read the things she's written about her 180? Does the "coach" advise her on how to do this disclosure later on? What say you sir? Pepper
<hr></blockquote> Well, while Carol did relate this story of her success to us here at MB, I don't know that she ever subscribed to the concepts here. I don't recall her saying in her posts. What I believe she did elaborate on was that she used a combination of sorts. Or that the 180 plan was similar in some regards to Plan A/B. Whether she uses radical honesty in her approach to the future, I don't know. We would need to get her here again to find out. Now, what I myself believe is probably something less than radical honesty. I see no reason for her to tell her H or show him this thread. Especially if they are in a strong recovery. I do take a bit of heat from fellow MBers for this position. That's ok. I understand their feelings about it. And no, I don't just feel this way based on one being the BS. I have already cautioned rifraff friends of yours against the possible downside of being radically honest where a strong recovery is in process, and they(she actually)was the WS. Hehe....that's a lot of words to say no, I don't see a need for Carol to tell. jd

Bump

Carol wasn't being manipulative or playing games. She was doing the 180's to make herself happy and feel more in control of her emotions. I wouldn't call that manipulative. This served her sanity. She was using the www.divorcebusting.com techniques, by Michele Weiner-Davis. The DB techniques ARE very similar to MB, but, they are not exacltly the same.Carol was working on making herself happy and the added bonus was that her H wanted her back.I think her motive was SURVIVAL

Thanx 4 bumping this up 4 me. Ive read testimonies where the WH eventually comes back and praises his wife because she remained faithful and prayful thru it all, even after years of separation (and even WH remarrying, then divorcing again to another). He saw that she persisted to comtinue to love and fight 4 him. I accidentaly did what Carol did a couple of times and got that same response. But should I be true to him and do the fighting openly?AH

Hi all, just checking back in. I don't get over here often (popped back in to copy this thread to post over on divorce busting, which is where I hung out mostly--it is kinda a combo plan a, plan b). Right now I'm busy having a wonderful life with H! Yes things are still going very well...finally the marriage of my dreams. It has been over a year since he woke up, and will be a year in June since he moved back (I made him wait several months to make sure and to cement his love for me so this would never happen again!)Anyway, just wanted to give a little encouragement to those of you with hardly any hope. When my H left he had a deep hatred for me and wanted a divorce. It took 1 1/2 yrs, but he finally woke up. I spent the separation time working on myself, but to tell you the truth, I was totally miserable without my H. And funny thing is, I don't know why, because we hadn't had a good marriage for about 15 years. It had been around 7 years since we told each other we loved each other.We both had faults, but I would have stuck it out married to him. He was the one who left (had found young EA).Now we have a good marriage and we spend time together and I feel like we are finally a team instead of both of us pulling in opposite directions. I am doing my part in showing my love for him and making him feel appreciated. He says I am filling up his love bank, LOL (and he is sure filling up mine too!)Carol

Here is more on 180: I got this off http://www.divorcebusting.com. I hope
this helps. DivorceBusting suggests doing a 180.
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,
etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start
the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have
had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you
are going to move on with your life, with or without
your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull
back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more
important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show
your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him
someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which
may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes
their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really
saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you
want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &
focus on all the other parts of your life that are not
in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any
words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you
are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with
your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than
50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in
absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad
you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

CarolH, WHo is the COach? Can you give a referral?Honey

BUMP

Honey, sorry I don't believe the coach is taking on new clients at this time. He is very busy writing a book.I would recommend reading Divorce Busting and Divorce Remedy and implementing some of the strategies there. That is what I did for a long time (and lived at their site). I also counselled with Michele W-D, who said everything was on my H's timetable. I got tired of that and decided I wanted out of the limbo...it had been 1 1/2 yrs. I basically Planned A'd for 1 1/2 yrs, and then it was time for Plan B. But we had a really strange separation from the start. H told me later he knew what he was doing was wrong, but just wanted some happiness for himself (we had a bad marriage, and he didn't think it could be fixed and had grown to hate me and be filled with anger).Carol

Please be aware that the "coach" that Carol hired had not training and was not able to save his own marriage. There have been a lot of horror stories about him over on the Divorce Busting Site. Please
read Michele Weiner-Davis's warning about him!

This one hasn't been bumped up in a long time... some of the newer folks may not have seen this...

Carol, that was really smart..how did you do it!! I mean, I thought of trying that, but I ended up breaking down before I can get it started...

Tatchina, you asked how I did it. Well I was at the end of my rope, and I was ready to go for broke. I was SOOOOO tired of the limbo.

Essentially H was now my lover/boyfriend, BUT I didn't even feel comfortable CALLING him. I wanted that interaction you have with a "genuine" boyfriend like we had when we were first going together (you know, him over every nite, calling all the time, being a couple, etc, etc). What was the sense of having a boyfriend who I slept with, spent occasional weekends with me whenever he got the urge, and not having the other perks? I was just plain tired of it after 1 1/2 yrs.

I had put in the time reinstituting our friendship and intimacy (not just the physical kind, but the sharing personal feelings, etc. kind). I didn't feel like EA was giving him the same intimacy (she wasn't as I found out later...my H really did a "tell all" about their relationship and I cannot understand how he would let himself be "taken" so long...she was in it for the money basically).

So I decided, it was sink or swim time, and if this didn't wake him up, I was forgetting him and going on alone. I had spent 1 1/2 yrs obsessing over him and his EA, etc (he didn't know this of course) and I was tired of it.

I JUST MADE MYSELF DO IT. It was NOT easy let me tell you. But I did it, and I took the advice I was given even tho it did sound a bit off (but wasn't) and it worked.

I get kinda tired of giving advice to people (I do it all the time over on the divorce busting board) and them saying, well I don't think I can do that, I can't help myself when I beg, cry, plead, chase my estranged H. I wish people would get a backbone. If you are going to succeed you have to go out on a limb and make yourself do it. You cannot be all wimpy about it. (OK now I will get off my soapbox).

BTW, H has been back over a yr now and we are doing so great. We are doing things together and he is still respectful and considerate of me. After nearly 22 yrs, I have the marriage I always dreamed about. We just bought a new popup camper with all the bells and whistles (frig, A/C, furnace, hot water heater, shower/toilet) and we are having fun going out on weekends in that and spending MORE time together! I have read that camping is great for a marriage and I have to agree! (so now I am spending time on the popup times bb, LOL).

Carol

Bump for those who need the inspiration.

Up you go!

^^^^^^

I am so glad this got bumped. It is the best ever. I really needed to read this.

Thanks

Bump this is really good

Bump for Terrified

Bump once again.

jd

^^bump for can't sleep^^

Bump from a newbie. Interesting ideas here.

Carol, Thank you so much for your story. It does help. I unintentionally did something similar in that I became good friends with a guy who was single and having relationship problems. We were helping each other get through rough times. At no time was it anything more.

I told H about this friend and that he made me laugh and feel good about myself and was giving me EN that H wasn't giving me. Later that week I
I went to the movies with my friend and another guy from work and my H was watching our children. Well the other guy didn't show because his car broke down and he didn't have a cell phone to call us so we went to the movies anyway. Well it was the new Two Towers movie (long) and we didn't get out until late and then I had to get my car (we carpooled).

My husband wakes up out of a dead sleep and calls my cell phone asking where I was. I told him that I was on my way back to my car. He practically pounced on me when I got home and started making comments like you know noone could love you like I could. We had great sex! He later told me that if I hadn't answered the phone he would know that I was sleeping with this guy. This is from the man who was never jealous of me, but was jealous of OW (no trust I think). This made me feel so good.

The OW cheated on H and LB all over the place so it is over now and we are now back together in recovery and he is committed to giving me 100% of the attention/admiration etc.. that he was giving the OW.

I am still somewhat distant in that I don't want him to think that everything is fine and that things can go back to what they were. They can't. I am hopeful that through hard work we will have a fullfilling marriage.

Thanks again for the great insight. It will help others I'm sure.

Barelyholdingon

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Anyway, we would have sex, he would tell me he did not want me to get any ideas that he was coming back just because we had sex; <hr /></blockquote>Sounds exactly like my H!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I hope my little saga has been somewhat helpful. A year ago I was in the darkest despair. I was at the bottom of the pit. My H and I had been separated 16 months, had even been having the greatest sex EVER for around a year, and still we were in LIMBO, with no end in sight (he admitted later we would have gone on like that for a LONG time...he had the best of both worlds...hot sex/companionship with me WHEN he wanted it; able to see EA when he wanted; able to do what he wanted because he lived by himself--why would he want to give THAT up?).

And look at me today. My H tells me many times a day he loves me; he is affectionate (he knows this is one of my EN's); we talk; we work together as a team; our D has her daddy home all the time!

LIFE IS GOOD! Don't give up! It is worth it.
<hr /></blockquote>carolkh - I am so glad I stumbled across your post through redhat's links in his sig line. I'm at 7 months post d-day, and after a 3 month time period where my H and I had no contact, we're at the point you described above. He's happily in his EA, and in my limited contact with him we have great passionate sex. He lives by himself and can do what he wants when he wants. He's getting the best of both worlds and probably would be happy to go on like this for ages. It's eerie the similarities here - even though I'm a FWS who was pursuing her reluctant BS.

I had come to a point last week where I knew I couldn't let this go on as it is, since I am sure my H would be content to treat me like this for as long as it feels good for him. I know I deserve more. No more sex for him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Ok, so I am fed up with having a semi-lover with none of the benefits. I want someone who is around, who I can see more often <hr /></blockquote>Exactly how I feel again! I know now that it's time to back off and come across as less desperate and not as someone who's willing to do anything for him....I need to make him feel like he's losing me as you said.

Really, at this point, I need him to pursue me. I realized that before I read your post.

Again, I am so glad I found your story, even if it's one year after the fact and you may no longer post on MB. It gives me a glimmer of hope again when I was feeling very pessimistic about my M ever getting recovered.

This is certainly a story worth reading for others too! So hopefully my bumping it up will give some folks some interesting reading.

Jen

This is so inspirational -- thanks!

Ran across my old thread in someone's sig line. Was I surprised. Glad it has been helpful. I don't post much over here, but I read at times. I am more likely to post over in DB since that is where I lived when I was going thru all that mess.

It was just about this time 2 yrs ago that I did all my radical 180's. It will be 2 yrs end of June since I let H move back in. I really tried to follow the good coaching I got, so this would last (who wants to go thru THAT again).

Glad to report we are doing great. We spend much more time together now than we ever used to. I really feel like we are a team...that was missing for much of our 19 yr (at that time) marriage.

H just got Dixie Chicks and Eagles tickets, so we are still having fun! Not bad for old folks (we are in our 50's).

Carol

Carol,
Your thread has meant alot to many here. I remember when you first posted two years ago!!!!

Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OMG, my hero is back. Lady you have been an inspiration to many here. I have pointed many many people struggling with Plan A/B to your thread.

It is so great to hear that things are still going so well for your marriage, I have often wondered.

Please, come around more often when you can?

jd

JD, LOL, yours was the sig line I read with my thread at the bottom!

Don't you post over on DB as well? I am really mostly over there in MLC...but really I don't post too much. Very busy around here. But I follow several people's threads and comment here and there.

You made my day with the hero thing, haha.

Yes H and I continue to do great, but it is work. You just can't coast. I hope I make him feel appreciated now...one thing he said he never felt before.

When I think back to the time we were separated, it seems like a dream. It seems like he never left. One thing, we do go to church together each week, something we never did before (he would go and I would stay home). I was brought up in a different religion and it was hard for me to go to his church. But now, I enjoy going with him and like the preacher's sermons--we make a day of it and go to lunch afterward and sometimes go shopping in town (we live in rural area, and church is in the city 30 miles away).

Carol

^

Carol, what state do you live in?

We are thankful for inspiring posts like this.

Susan

Susan, I live in Texas. Why do you ask?

I know I used to avidly read any "success stories". They gave me hope that there was actually such a thing!

Must tell you, it all seems like a dream now. H has been home 22 months now. We are doing fine, but then I really tried to make sure I did everything "right" two yrs ago so we would not have to go thru this again! You will remember I didn't immediately let him come home, I essentially made him win me back!

There is hope for all of you. During my darkest moments, I NEVER thought H and I would get back together, especially with him living alone for 1 1/2 years!

Carol

Bumping, because this thread just gave me inspiration and swept a bit of my sadness away!

Bump!

I love it! I am trying to implement changes like this, and have already made it through some good ones.

One night when wh thought I was going on a -date- after he picked up the kids.... he followed me for at least 30 minutes until he lost me.

I had dressed up like I was going on a date, and walked out and got in the car when he picked up the kids, and said something like have fun, bye, in a happy voice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hugs, Honey

Carolh:

I noticed you are a Texan, anywhere close to Houston?

Hugs, Honey

Great story! I remember this one was bumped not long after I found MB. What an inspiration! I had been thinking of this story recently and have done some 180 myself & WH is noticing!

Thanks Carol for comming back and giving us an update!

D.

[ May 08, 2003, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: WillGetThruThis ]

OK CAROL K! I've posted to you on DB. I'll try not to wimp out on you.

What is the Divorce busters website - I can't seem to pull it up!

Thanks!

When I started this thread, I was desperate. I knew I was at the end of my rope w/ H. I had changed my username for the ??? time... hiding from him in case he lurked (he didn't) or OW (who may have).

It (the thread) makes me SMILE <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> each time it comes up.

'cause though I didn't implement such a structured 180 plan... I did implement 180s. I think now, over a year later, that 180s WORK like a plan A... when you do them for yourself, for healing and NOT specifically to GET your spouse back.

Make YOUR healing YOUR priority.

btw.... www.divorcebusting.com should take you to the DB site.

Hugs to all...

Cali (AKA TryingAgain)

Time to bump... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

^^bump^^ for the New Year.

hugs to all.

Cali

Thanks for bumping this thread!

Hey Carol could you give me the name of your coach please. Glenn in Santa Fe

greaternm@hotmail.com

Hi Carol,

You've inspired all of us here and in a way I feel that just when I am distancing myself away from the WS he keeps begging me not to throw away our 5 years. I think sometimes that reverse psychology does work for some. I still do Plan A full time and also banks on "jealousy tactics" for him to feel insecure and not just think that I will always be available and forgiving whatever happens. I make him feel that there are a 1000 men out there who will grab me once he lets go so he's on his toes.
Thanks for a beautiful success story! God bless!
BF

BF, thanks for nice comments. Frankly it seems like a dream now. H has been home almost 3 yrs.

Glenn, sorry, coach moved out of state several yrs ago and I don't have his contact info. You might try getting Divorce Remedy and Divorce Busting by Michele Weiner-Davis and implementing some of those ideas. I also used the HNHN book, Dobson's Tough Love book, and a host of others for ideas.

I posted my story in the hopes that it might help others, and give them some ideas of what worked for me.

Carol

As a former WS I smiled when I read your story as it realising that my husband was interested in others that made me come back. I moved out and we would message on teh internet regularly. One day my daughter and I were chatting online and she told me that her dad was out "with some woman who asked him". It was actually a lie on her part but made me feel physically sick and was the beginning of my return. When I realised that I truly ran teh risk of losing him and that he wasnt going to wait forever in teh wings, was my wake up call.

Now its me persuing him, as he has other interests.... Thanks for your inspiring story Carol !

^bump^

Bump for Whitefeather...

^^^Bump^^^ Very interesting reading.....

bump

bump for Shelly

Hi everyone, just an update. I don't haunt the boards like I did 5 yrs ago, but I do read on occasion.

Today is our 25th anniversary, and hubby and I were discussing the fact it was a miracle we made it to 25. When I think back on the events of our 20th anniversary I shudder. Hubby and I were separated, him living 30 miles away, and even tho we had so much interaction, and were even lovers, he chose to ignore the occasion. I remember how devastated I was, but I didn't let him know that of course. I just continued on my course of action.

In the thread above, it is all documented. I contributed to this thread for one main reason--to give hope to those in seemingly "impossible" situations. It only takes ONE person to facilitate changes. With some guidance, I changed, which in turn caused my hubby to change. If what you are doing isn't working, try something NEW, just mix it up and be totally unpredictable. If you just keep up with the same old thing, nothing is going to change at all. Be creative in your thinking and what you do!

Hubby has been back over 4 years now, and it seems like a distant dream that he was ever gone.

Everyone hang in there--there truly are some success stories if you stay the course!

Carol

hello carol..

happy anniversary to you and hubby!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and many many more..

ARK

Just wanted to bump up this happy beginning. Story starts on page 1 of post. Kind of makes me feel like maybe its worth it afterall.

Quote

Today is our 25th anniversary, and hubby and I were discussing the fact it was a miracle we made it to 25. When I think back on the events of our 20th anniversary I shudder. Hubby and I were separated, him living 30 miles away, and even tho we had so much interaction, and were even lovers, he chose to ignore the occasion. I remember how devastated I was, but I didn't let him know that of course. I just continued on my course of action.

In the thread above, it is all documented. I contributed to this thread for one main reason--to give hope to those in seemingly "impossible" situations. It only takes ONE person to facilitate changes. With some guidance, I changed, which in turn caused my hubby to change. If what you are doing isn't working, try something NEW, just mix it up and be totally unpredictable. If you just keep up with the same old thing, nothing is going to change at all. Be creative in your thinking and what you do!

Hubby has been back over 4 years now, and it seems like a distant dream that he was ever gone.

Everyone hang in there--there truly are some success stories if you stay the course!

Carol

Love this post....start on page 1 its amazing!!!

She lives right over here by me. A Texan! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bumped for DLK21

Texan!! Figures. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi Carol,

Just wanted to say happy anniversary and that I love your story and how you took the imitative to change and take back some control. Am new here, just joined this week. Just learned 2 ½ months ago( 3 wks before our 21st wedding anniversary) about WH and A, had known something was up as he asked for separation in April. Have since found he put a woman up in condo in city 2 hours away. WH had already given up OW first week in August, but my discovery of--his horror of caused him to have a mental and physical collapse. He is now in total withdrawal and denial of A with a “memory loss” so we have a lot of unresolved issues, you might say, still to deal with and a road ahead of us. During our separation I tried to change to find a way out of the misery of and as time wore on I began to show less interest and care of whether or not he was coming home. I was still hopeless enough not to consider this affect on WH, but looking back now I can see that this must have garnered his interest again. Anyrate, love your story and plan to print out. May end up implementing some of the things U used. WH seems intent on going back to where we were before the A–IE he wants the “girl” without a mind of her own back who would go along to get along and that ain’t going to happen. Can see now our relationship has not been unhealthy for years. Anyrate I am game to use whatever methods needed to get him to get involved in the recovery process so that we can find a better place for both of us and found many of your ideas have great potential.

Consider yourself hugged,

I loved this story! Bumped up for Shattered 05. Start on page 1 of this thread..its amazing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

bumped for shattered 05

bumped for hoopsie
This is the best planA / 180 story....let it inspire you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

start on page one

I found it!!!!

I haven't seen this thread bumped in a while.

Start on page one.

Enjoy...