Death of WW's OM - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Okay here's the situation:

WW calls off A with OM, then OM gets severly injured in accident, then dies the same day that WW says she wants to recommit. Obviously she's sad and I don't care one bit about it. Two problems here: 1)I don't care that's she upset about it, and 2)What do I do knowing that I don't care about it.

I've been plan Aing for three months and she's in her own place. Should I be understanding if she wants to go to funeral? I know I'm sounding selfish, and that's another problem. Usually I'd be empathetic with my W and her feelings, but I just don't care.

Any insights into this would be helpful as only two days ago my WW was wanting to start the path to recovery. Now there's another landmine in the way. Thanks

Not letting, (infact i would encourage it if om is not married) Wife go to the funeral would be a big LB, and in plan a, you know. anyway. Its a funeral, how very tramatic for w. Try and be wonderful to her right now. You will earn brownie points.

Was om married???? If so, did spouse know of A?

I would kill her with my bare hands if she came to his funeral.

Wow, that was strong.

Bandit - ditto notgoingtodothis unless OM was married and his grieving widow knows about the affair and your wife as the OW.

How long was it between the accident and his death? The reason I ask is because if your wife re-committed to your marriage on the same day he died and he didn't die right away, then she did this despite maybe having sympathy for him. Or did she wait until he died and then came back to you because, well, he was dead?

Regardless, I'd suggest you support her in a big time Plan A. You don't have to pretend to grieve for him. If it were me, I'd go to the funeral myself just to make sure he was dead. Heck, I'd even want to throw dirt into the grave on the casket.

BTW, how'd you arrange the accident? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Disclaimer: I am not ashamed to make light of this guy's passing. While I don't necessarily wish for any one's untimely death, if my XW's new husband got hit by a truck today and died, I'd conclude it couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy.

The responses in this thread alone have convinced me that the HATE exhibited at this forum for PEOPLE WHO ARE PEOPLE AND MAKE MISTAKES--yes, HAVE AFFAIRS--is shameful to say the least, and I think this severe vengeance mentality has to be reexamined if we're going to jest at the expense of a dead person and put THAT little value on human life. It sickens me.

Do you think that most WS's CHOSE to develop emotional feelings for their OM's??? This OM was a person with feelings, fears, the ability to feel pain, sorrow, make mistakes, do wonderful things, too---JUST LIKE EVERY ONE OF YOU. The difference is that as the BS's you failed your spouse at some point and they developed feelings for someone who offered them what you couldn't or chose not to at the time. THEIR MISTAKE TO NOT PUT UP SAFEGUARDS/BOUNDARIES, granted, but this OM is gone and no physical threat to your M anymore....so allow your W to grieve and have some compassion for her, for God sake! Bandit, the way you talk shows no care at all for your wife and her feelings...affair, or no affair, I still think you sound COLD, man! NO BS SHOULD EXPECT HIS FORMER WS to hold back the grieving for someone she at one time considered a friend, let alone be cursed with a spouse who openly expresses a who-gives-a-damn attitude.

As far as attending the funeral, I wouldn't suggest it if there is a wife or if the BS is strongly opposed...as it sounds like you are. If I were your W and truly wanted to salvage my R w/you, and you strongly opposed to my attending the funeral, I wouldn't go, but I would send the OM's parents a card...for they are probably feeling the greatest pain at this time. But don't expect such a negative, uncompassionate attitude to win you any Brownie points....in fact, if you keep it up, I'd say count on some resentment coming your way, instead.

By the way, I am a former WS who was in a 2-yr. EA w/someone who was a family friend for 9 years, but I initiated NC before PA could take place. But he was still a friend first for a long time; I still maintain lots of good memories of this good person that can't just be flushed out of my mind automatically, regardless of my devotion to my H. And I've already considered this possible scenario of my former OM passing, myself, as I've had enough friends die of AIDS and other diseases at young ages that I know that life is fragile and we can go anytime. Grieving the loss of a friend is the most excruciating pain and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I have great compassion for your W. Good luck to you....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
Do you think that most WS's CHOSE to develop emotional feelings for their OM's???<hr /></blockquote>Yes, they all made a choice to have an affair. They chose to follow their feelings, fully knowing it is wrong, but justifying it out of selfishness. Period.

I do not feel hate or vengence. If I did, with the same emotion as a WS having an affair, I'd murder the OM. Same thing. I'd be following my feelings with selfish justification.

While I understand that since there was no relationship/friendship/anything between you and this man, except for the fact that he was involved in something with your W which caused you great sorrow...you wouldn't feel much or care deeply one way or the other at his death...he's a stranger to you.

Now, as for your W, regardless of her decision to return home and rebuild her marriage, there was a connection of some sort with OM. To deny her the right to grief will only backfire on you. Even if a betrayal had not taken place, since she knew him, she would grieve.

Yes, I understand that it would be difficult for you to be supportive of her at this time, as you can't share this grief in anyway. BUT...you can tell her that you understand her grief.

If she wants to go to the funeral, that is her choice. You had better be understanding if you want to continue doing plan A. I'm not saying you have to like it...but you must accept that she may need this to find real closure and put aside her guilt. (We do feel guilty when someone dies, even if from no actions of ours. She's going to be feeling extra guilty since she ended things with him right before he died. That's just how it is, no sense in fighting it.)

Yes, this is a landmine...now what do you want to do about it? Defuse it? Or step on it? You've got a chance of making some major love deposits...or you can make some major withdrawals. Up to you!

note...I am assuming that OM was NOT married.

Hey hey hey,

Lets all try to cool off here - while I hear what you're saying PP, about everyone being able to make mistakes and being upset about the intense feelings of "not caring" you have seen expressed on this thread, I think you are not quite appreciating where these guys are coming from.

WAT works really hard here with people who come to this forum for help - and he has a had a lot on his plate to deal with - his son became ill and died - throughout his son's illness, his neighbour comforted both he and his wife, and was a pallbearer at his son's funeral, then - made off with his wife! Go figure! What a friend! I can fully sympathize with WAT's "hard feelings".

Yes, a lot of WS who come on this forum have to brave the flames of the BS who respond to their posts, but I think if you read more fully, you will see many FWS here who receive a lot of support and are in turn very helpful to the BS on this forum - currently, I support Lisa in London, who is a FWW, and I have a lot of admiration for her.

WAT is right - yes, people who have affairs DO choose to allow their emotions to develop into an affair - they don't think they do at the time, but they do - they are lying to themselves and everyone else if they think they didn't have a choice in that matter.

Its not bandit's fault the OM was killed on the same day his wife decided to reconcile - its extremely bad luck - he is in the torrent of emotion of wanting to work on his marriage and finally having the chance, and you expect him to feel SYMPATHY for this guy - way off base, I think.

Yes, the OM was a person - and probably not an evil person. But he WAS intruding into another man's marriage, plain and simple.
If he was married, I would not in any way shape or form think it appropriate for bandit's wife to attend the funeral - she was the OW and her presence would be an offense to the OM's wife. But if he was single, then I think she should go if she wanted to, and bandit should grit his teeth and bear it - let her say her goodbyes.

These people have a lot to deal with - anger is certainly an appropriate part of their own grieving. Lets all try to be understanding and not so judgemental.

LIR

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by worthatry:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
[qb]Do you think that most WS's CHOSE to develop emotional feelings for their OM's???<hr /></blockquote>Yes, they all made a choice to have an affair. They chose to follow their feelings, fully knowing it is wrong, but justifying it out of selfishness. Period.

WAT & LIR,

"Following their feelings" and "choosing to have an affair" is different than having the emotional feelings and admiration develop after knowing an individual over a period of time. That was my experience, anyway, and the initial development of admiration was in no way something I had control over. "Following" feelings and choosing to engage in an affair, on the other hand, ARE actions that requires deliberation and a selfish spirit.

LIR, I recall WAT's own story (I was very saddened to read about his son's death many months ago, as I've been at MB actively since May). And I understand by his disclaimer that he's not ashamed of making light of the man's passing by joking to Bandit that he arranged the man's fatal accident. He has every right to have such hard feelings...and even vent that way, unfortunately. But it is still excessive, reflects hate and I would think would offend many WS newbies who might wander onto the site. It definitely saddened and disturbed me. Sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
... the initial development of admiration was in no way something I had control over. "Following" feelings and choosing to engage in an affair, on the other hand, ARE actions that requires deliberation and a selfish spirit. <hr /></blockquote>Oh my GOD! I swear, this needs to be screamed from the mountain tops!! This is the BEST way to describe the inner workings and responsibility of the infidel THAT I HAVE EVER READ ON THIS SITE.

Does EVERYONE see this?

Sorry, just had to jump in and say this...

Wow!

Aside from that, I don't even know what to say about the subject of this thread. It's sad that your wife is hurting bandit, and I can only hope that you aren't mocking her pain. Pain is pain is pain-- example: lung cancer for a smoker. Yeah, the person *caused* it by smoking, but pain is pain is pain, and we need to be compassionate about the pain - especially if it's someone we LOVE.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Two problems here: 1)I don't care that's she's upset about it, and 2)What do I do knowing that I don't care about it." <hr /></blockquote>If you don't care about your WW's feelings then why do you want to remain married to her? Don't say it's because you still love her because true love is empathic of the painful feelings, right or wrong, of the loved one.

I have not been here for quite a while, but this topic hit close to home for me. My WW is involved in an EA with her old college professor, whose health is very shaky. He had a close call recently, and almost didn't make it.

I found that I had deeply ambivalent feelings about his continued existence. On the one hand, if he were out of the picture, I feel that it would be easier for my WW to re-engage with me in counseling and otherwise. On the other hand, I felt sick at heart that I could actually wish another person dead.

I do believe that it was important to allow myself to indulge in these feelings, if only for a while, instead of repressing them outright. I eventually made a consious decision that holding such hatred only demeaned me. This is not to say that my heart is full of love for the SOB. I just won't lower myself.

This said, I am afraid that I totally understand the anger.

First, let me say bandit, if you love your W (and you wouldn't be here if you didn't), support her through this. Fake it if you have to. It will mean alot down the line. This is a time to put your feelings aside and give her inconditonal love.

That said, I have a few words for PacificPrincess:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
Do you think hat most WS's CHOSE to develop emotional feelings for their OM's???....The difference is that as the BS's you failed your spouse at some point and they developed feelings for someone who offered them what you couldn't or chose not to at the time.<hr /></blockquote>To answer your question, yes. You don't develop feelings for someone through osmosis. It happens by opening yourself up to that person.

In my case, my W developed feelings for her OM because she shared things with him that she never TRIED to share with me. There were no subtle comments or subliminal messages. She was unhappy for a long time, long before she met me, for reasons that have nothing to do with me. She hid them from me. Why? Because she didn't feel she could talk to me. How would she know if she didn't try? Her answer to that, "I don't know". It's not always as simple as a BS ignoring the WS's pleas or failing to see the signs. Sometimes there are no signs.

Sorry to hijack your post bandit.

sad dad

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
He has every right to have such hard feelings...and even vent that way, unfortunately. But it is still excessive, reflects hate and I would think would offend many WS newbies who might wander onto the site.<hr /></blockquote>Princess, I must not have communicated well enough.

I don't have any emotion toward OM. I do not hate him. I feel nothing for him, so I don't have hard feelings. (So nothing of something cannot be excessive.) Quite the contrary, I feel nothing for him which is how I can have no concern whether he lives or dies. I care about every other living creature on this rock - even you. I even care for my XW who sought refuge anywhere (obviously!) to escape the pain of the loss of our son. A cockroach deserves to live. To me, OM deserves nothing.

If this offends WS newbies, so be it. If they're still infected by moose brain worms, perhaps they need to feel offended in order to see a little reality or gain some humbleness.

My track record towards WSs here is crystal clear. I have stated over and over that this forum could not be as effective without the participation of WSs. We need to communicate with unreformed WSs for two reasons. First, to give us practice and reminders that when dealing with affairees in heat we don't have to suspend disbelief as much as disengage our cerebral cortices to keep from going crazy ourselves, and secondly, to maybe, just maybe, reach them. This is EXACTLY why I am not shy about telling it the way it is or unabashedly communicating my thoughts and ideas. I have come to know many "recovered" WSs here. Just yesterday I received an e-mail from a former WS, whom along with her H I have met personally, announcing the birth of their first child.

Sorry Bandit, for hijacking this.

[ November 22, 2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]

<<<The responses in this thread alone have convinced me that the HATE exhibited at this forum for PEOPLE WHO ARE PEOPLE AND MAKE MISTAKES--yes, HAVE AFFAIRS--is shameful to say the least>>>

2+2 = 5 is a mistake. An affair is a choice.

<<<and I think this severe vengeance mentality has to be reexamined if we're going to jest at the expense of a dead person and put THAT little value on human life. It sickens me.>>>

Never been through this on the other side, have you?

<<<Do you think that most WS's CHOSE to develop emotional feelings for their OM's???>>>

Yes, they do. They have the same choice all of us have -- to open up to an attractive person regardless, or to keep the boundaries in place to protect their own marriages and those of the fellow human beings you keep talking about.

<<<The difference is that as the BS's you failed your spouse at some point and they developed feelings for someone who offered them what you couldn't or chose not to at the time.>>>

Sorry, hon. In my case he wanted to be married at home and single at work. My failing was that I couldn't be five different women for him. Yeah, I should have tried to correct that.

<<<THEIR MISTAKE TO NOT PUT UP SAFEGUARDS/BOUNDARIES, granted, but this OM is gone and no physical threat to your M anymore....so allow your W to grieve and have some compassion for her, for God sake! Bandit, the way you talk shows no care at all for your wife and her feelings...affair, or no affair, I still think you sound COLD, man! NO BS SHOULD EXPECT HIS FORMER WS to hold back the grieving for someone she at one time considered a friend, let alone be cursed with a spouse who openly expresses a who-gives-a-damn attitude.>>>

Yes, it's all about you, isn't it? Let us know when you have sit in our position, and then tell us how good it would make you feel to do something like this.

<<<As far as attending the funeral, I wouldn't suggest it if there is a wife or if the BS is strongly opposed...as it sounds like you are. If I were your W and truly wanted to salvage my R w/you, and you strongly opposed to my attending the funeral, I wouldn't go, but I would send the OM's parents a card...for they are probably feeling the greatest pain at this time.>>>

Yes, I'm sure they'd be thrilled to hear from his married girlfriend. That would leave his family feeling so very proud.

<<<But don't expect such a negative, uncompassionate attitude to win you any Brownie points....in fact, if you keep it up, I'd say count on some resentment coming your way, instead.>>>

You're right. No husband should resent his wife wanting to go to her boyfriend's funeral. He shouldn't have resented her having someone in her life who made her so happy. What kind of people are we?

<<<By the way, I am a former WS who was in a 2-yr. EA w/someone who was a family friend for 9 years, but I initiated NC before PA could take place. But he was still a friend first for a long time; I still maintain lots of good memories of this good person that can't just be flushed out of my mind automatically, regardless of my devotion to my H.>>>

It's too bad your wonderful memories aren't less important than the torment you have put your husband through, and no doubt still continue to do, with attitudes like this.

But it's ok. My husband does the same thing. Everything is great at my house as long as I fully understand that:

1) There are some things we are never going to talk about.

2) There are some things he is never going to be sorry for.

3) I will be met with rage and bullied into submission if I dare to suggest otherwise.

I have no doubt he reacts this way because he feels the same way you do. He has wonderful memories of the terrific women he shared so much of his life with and he is not going to do anything that would betray them and his memories of them.

He can put me through the torments of hell, but that's ok. The important thing is never to say he was wrong and never to say one negative thing about the wonderful women who were such a delightful and important part of his work life.

It sickens me to think of how he would react if something happened to one of them. To think of how sorry for him all his co-workers would be.

But it's okay. I should have the same attitude that all unrepentant WS seem to have: hey, it made YOU happy, so it should make ME happy too, right? Shouldn't I be glad that you found something that added such joy and sunshine to your life? Shouldn't that make me happy, too?

Apparently so. That is exactly my husband's attitude. And I will be shouted down and have glass bowls thrown in my direction if I don't agree.

I'm so happy for you.

Hey Peeps,

Thanks for the posts here. The OM was not married but was involved in another A with another married woman at the same time as my WW, was having the A with him. Soooo...hopefully you can all understand that I wouldn't have any feelings either way about his demise. He's a compulsive home wrecker! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , here's my resolve: Let her go to the funeral and let it be done. That will be the ultimate closure I could expect I guess. I'll let it take it's course. Whomever questioned if I didn't love my wife must be crazy! Plan A is the ultimate sacrafice of love, enough said.

To Pacific P, I can honestly say I have absolutely no idea why you would have posted as the WS. Unless your the BS, you cannot possibly understand it, period. I pray that you never have to experience it either. (How's that for compassion?)

The rest of ya, thanks for the thread. As a side note, the day before the accident I told my wife in a MC appointment that I felt that both her and the OM would pay for what they had done, even if it wasn't in this life. (By the way, I didn't plan it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

take care, and WAT your situation is effd up!

[ November 22, 2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]

Psycho_B,

I missed your post as I was posting myself. Bottom line is this: couldn't have said it better to PP myself!

Rock on!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
The responses in this thread alone have convinced me that the HATE exhibited at this forum for PEOPLE WHO ARE PEOPLE AND MAKE MISTAKES--yes, HAVE AFFAIRS--is shameful to say the least, and I think this severe vengeance mentality has to be reexamined if we're going to jest at the expense of a dead person and put THAT little value on human life. It sickens me.
<hr /></blockquote>And that "mistake" can shred the very fiber of the BS being, devastate them like they never thought possible, bring up emotions they never knew they were capable of, bring aonce strong person to the verge of a breakdown. Just as the WS and OP often have very little empathy for the BS, the BS often has very little empathy for the OP. Seems like a pretty even street.
Thank God the A is long over in our case, but if I found out tomorrow that the xOW died and my FWH went to the funeral he wouldn't have a home to come back to afterwards.
Want to hear about the heartwarming empathy that the kindly OW showed for me? She told me that when she found I that I was pregnant she "prayed every day that you'd have a miscarriage". And after my husband would no longer take his calls she left heartwarming messages on his voicemail like "I wish that {Fairydust} would get killed in a car accident" which progressed to "I wish that both of you were dead". She would have been dancing a jig on my grave.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
... the initial development of admiration was in no way something I had control over. "Following" feelings and choosing to engage in an affair, on the other hand, ARE actions that requires deliberation and a selfish spirit. <hr /></blockquote>Pacific Princess - I have "admiration" for ALOT of people and find MANY people physically attractive. That does NOT mean that I DO NOT control myself and say 1) I am married; 2) I made a promise to my husband in front of God and all of our family and friends; and 3) As a mature adult, I may REALLY like someone, but I have enough self-control to know the limits of any relationship with that person. Simply because you might "admire" someone does not mean you let it go the next step. Also, "admiration" is one thing - allowing another person to meet EN's that your spouse should be meeting is absolutely, positively WRONG. When it gets to the point where a WS is allowing another person to meet EN's, that is where the selfishness comes in - your need to "feel good" overrides and obliterates your spouse and the vows you made to your spouse. Rather than allowing this to happen and let that "admiration" grow, you should be going back to your spouse and address why he/she is not meeting your EN's sufficiently. In MANY MANY MANY cases, it is purely a matter of selfish instant gratification that is the key factor. Please, do tell, are you and your BS in recovery? What is your BS' view regarding your "observation?" You sound to me like someone who is still trying to justify to yourself, your spouse and everyone else that your actions were justified. Get a grip.

With regard to the issue at hand - If my FWH's OW died, I would be sad that it happened and, if necessary, would be supportive of my FWH in anyway I saw possible. I think that is the "higher road" here.

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-13 months
Status: One Day At A Time

I have to agree with Fairydust. If my FWW went to the funeral of the OM, she would not be welcome back home, not for a while at least. The A is over, and while I have been sympathetic and given her time, its time for her to start thinking of my feelings first. She is an adult though, and I cannot, would not stop her if she wanted to go. But no way would I support her through this.

To explain how I really feel, here is a better plan. I would have FWW stay home, while I went to the funeral and pissed on the grave of the OM in front of everyone, then I would tell em why.

In Bandit's case we are talking about a man who not only damaged one M, but evidently another one too. Give me a break people. This man deserves no sympathy from anyone, least of all Bandit's W.
Michael
Me 39(40 soon, yuck!)
FWW 38
M 18
Two S's
A began Jan 01
D Day Jun 01
In MC

PS I know this was a very un MB post, but I couldn't take it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MichaelinDallas:
I have to agree with Fairydust. If my FWW went to the funeral of the OM, she would not be welcome back home, not for a while at least. The A is over, and while I have been sympathetic and given her time, its time for her to start thinking of my feelings first. She is an adult though, and I cannot, would not stop her if she wanted to go. But no way would I support her through this.

<hr /></blockquote>Exactly. I Plan A'd my butt off, and it was very succesful and benefitted myself as well as the marriage. But when we reconciled I made it VERY clear that I was at the end of my rope. If we were going to make it, the OW had to become a non entity. There wasn't room in our marriage for 3, and I was done making allowances. I had to come first, and she had to come nowhere, not for any reason.

Bandit,
If I were in your shoes, I can honestly say that I would not feel sadness, sympathy for REAL FAMILY_YES, but I would be relieved that the thief was gone.
You are not a bad person for not "moarning the loss of your wife's lover!" Get real here! Any one else should walk in your shoes!

I look in the obituaries every day hoping to see that SOB name. I have day dreamed about going to his funeral and writing A*s hole on his fore head with magic marker.

Okay, how's this for a slant on things....

I've been both the OW and am now the BS. (See my signature line--I married the OP...yeah, yeah, I've already heard all the cliches--that's not what I'm about today.)

When I was the OW, I often wondered how I would handle it if something happened to him. I thought I would probably lose my mind with grief, as who the H*** was gonna give me comfort? Who the H*** would I confide in with my sorrow--who would I lean on? I was single, no husband to worry about hurting; I sure wouldn't have gone to the funeral and rubbed the W's nose in it.

Now, with the shoe being on the other foot, I can honestly say that I have no use for the OW, despite the fact that I used to be one. I've expressed some pretty graphic ideas about what I'd like to happen to her; none of it pretty. Hypocritical? Yes, definitely. I'm taking my punishment like a big girl for my sins of the past. Doesn't change my attitude about her. Would I let my FWH go to her funeral? If he did...well, like other posters her, he'd be sleeping in the street.

my move

WHAT WS'S FAIL TO REALIZE IS THAT THESE "OP" INFLICT UPON US A LIVING DEATH. IN ORDER TO EVEN BREATH SOME DAYS I BLOCK THEM OUT AS NON EXISTANT. IN MANY CASES OUR BS MAY FIND THEIR WAY BACK AND SHOW REMORSE, RARELY DOES THE "OP" FADE AWAY ON THEIR OWN. WE AS BS'S DETACH SO MUCH SO FROM THE OP THAT THEIR VERY EXISTANCE IS IRRELEVANT THEREFORE THEIR DEATH IS MEANINGLESS. IF THESE PEOPLE EXISTED FOR US IN OUR MIND'S EYE IT WOULD BE MADDENING. I PERSONALLY AM PAST REJOICING AT THE DEATHS OF ANY OF MY HUSBAND'S OW HOWEVER I WOULDNT LOSE ANY SLEEP OVER THEIR PASSINGS EITHER. TO ME THEY ATTEMPTED TO END MY LIFE WITH THEIR SELFISH CALLOUS BEHAVIOR AND AS A SURVIVOR OF THESE WOUNDS I AM UNMOVED BY THE REALITIES OF THEIR WORLD. ANYONE OF THEM WOULD LOVE TO SEE ME SUFFER MERELY BECAUSE I AM HIS WIFE, BECAUSE I WIN THEY LOSE, I HAVE THE MAN, HIS NAME, STATUS, SECURITY, RESPECTABILITY, AND DEVOTION THAT THEY WERE DETERMINED TO ROB FROM ME-I AM THE BETTER PERSON BY MERELY BLOCKING THEM OUT. AFTERALL THEY HUNTED ME AND WOULD HAVE LEFT ME FOR DEAD. SHOULD ANY VICTIM OF A HENIOUS ATTACK IGNORE THE RAGE THEY FEEL FOR THEIR ATTACKER? EXTRICATING THE CANCER THESE PEOPLE WERE IN OUR LIVES IS MORE THAN THEY DESERVE.

IN RECOVERY A WS MUST UNDERSTAND THIS IN ORDER TO HELP THEIR SPOUSE HEAL. THE HEARTBREAK IS BEYOND EXPLAINABLE. WS SYSTEMATICALLY SUPRESS THE NATURAL REACTION OF RAGE THEY FEEL FOR THE OP OVER TIME IN ORDER TO SURVIVE. IF THE OP DIDNT REACH A POINT OF OBLIVION MENTALLY FOR US I WOULD BE AFRAID FOR THEIR WELFARE...BECAUSE THE PAIN IS SO GREAT REFOCUSSING ON THEM AS NONENTITIES RATHER THAN OUR GREATEST ENEMY IS THE OP'S SALVATION.

I like MY MOVE's response because it comes from both sides of this issue.

Personally, as much I don't give rat's a$$ what happens to the OM, I would allow my W to grieve and support her through it, but I must be a little nuts anyway.

As it is today, WW stills sees OM because his D and our D are best friends and OM and W had already been taking turns with pick-up and drop-offs from school and each others' houses when needed, which apparntly benefits both of their working schedules, but still frosts my nuts, if you know what I mean.

Plus, I still see her commenting on things that go on in his life (like a possible custody battle between OM and his ExW over their D moving out-of-state) as if she still cares a lot about what happens to him in his life. I honestly think still considers him a friend. We were all friends before this happened, so I think she still sees him as friend even now, just without the sex this time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Bottomline, we are not saints, and to expect the BS to "rise to the occassion" and be oh so spiritual and above it all is unrealistic. It's already bad enough that the BS has to "tough it out" with Plan A'ing their butts off while the A continues in their faces in many cases, plus, we are required be supportive and understanding and provide a "safe environment" for the WS lest we ruin our chances of saving the M, and all this while we feel as though our hearts are being ripped out of our chests and our guts are on the floor being trampled on, so please do forgive the BS if they just can't seem muster one more iota of "support and understanding" in the face of the OP's ill-fortune or demise.

I can respect the feelings of my WS in such a case, but do I really need to sympathize or empathize with her? I'm still not sure. I would only be as supportive as I am capable of being at the time. In the weird case posted here, where the OP dies the same day that the WS decided to stay and reconcile, I can fully understand the reaction and the feeling behind it. It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out.

Now then, say the WS goes to the funeral and then weeks or months later the WS is still "missing" the OP in an obvious and relationship affecting way, then what? Does the BS still offer up continued sympathy and support? When does it all end?

The BS has as much "right" to feel and thinks as they do as much as the WS does. Bandit, feel whatever you may, but outwardly support your wife through this grief. It may payoff in the long-run and ultimately show her once and for all how much of a better man you truly are! Good Luck!

Bandit,

I totally agree w/you and anyone who would feel relief over the demise of OP. Personally as a BS I see the OM demise as a victory. I know I will get bashed for saying this but that's just how I feel. It is no different than when he was at my house, on my bed, with my wife. He knew that I/we, my kids, my family and his family would be destroyed (see not only was he a neighbor but I thought he was my best friend). So he caused my death w/help from my WW but essentially he caused it. So to think that Bandit is wrong for having the feeling he has is idiotic.

Not only did he cause my death on the (2) occassions he came to my house to destroy us, he continues to kill off a part of me everyday by having infilltrated my WW's very being and thoughts. It has been hell for us (slowly recovering) but think of the death the BS goes through daily plan A'ing, plan B'ing, living, breathing, trying to survive and trying to recover. I've said in an earlier post. If there were anyway to obliterate this fu**** off of the face of the earth and not get caught I'm at the front of the line.

Now that being said I will caution Bandit to be patient w/his WW because understandably even if we don't like it she will have to grieve. Support her and be strong for yourself. I just hope for all of us (BS) just starting the recovery process that our WS would be just as devasted, hopefully more, if the unthinkable happened to us the BS. Sometimes because of the roller coaster ride of recovery we (WS) have to wonder about their feelings for us.

So Bandit peace be with you and I hope your WW recovers/has closure soon so that your recovery can be possible. For PacificP to think that he has no LOVE or COMPASSION for his wife's feelings during this time is just plain stupid. Put yourself in his shoes and walk a mile. You will never know the hell that he is going through.

To all of the WS out there that have given the utmost in respect and knowledge to the BS on this forum I thank you. But I hope that I didn't offend you, I ask you to please understand how the BS feels about the OP.

Again I don't mean to offend anyone I just wanted to point out that our feelings about the OP demise is valid for us. It may be horrible for us to think this way but for us it is as valid as the WS having given in to their feelings and allowing the A to happen.

NUFF SAID. SORRY FOR THE VENT......

[ November 22, 2002, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: therod ]

...and now for something completely different. There's always one "Bible-thumper" in the group--well--almost always. So, here goes...

Harsh--very harsh. And this is coming from a BS.

"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice, or the Lord will see and disapprove and turn his wrath away from him." Proverbs 24:17

"If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. In doing so, you will heap burning coals on his head and the Lord will reward you." Proverbs 25:21&22

"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."
Micah 6:8

I am the BS. And at this point, you might think I'm full of B-S. By what measurement or judgement you use, it will be used against you also. Forgiveness and compassion are qualities not easily found in the average person. It is always easier to strike back, easier to satisfy oneself for the moment. Easier to cuss 'em out, wish death upon, mangle and mutilate in our thoughts. Easy stuff--and FUN too(sarcasm).

Here's another food for thought-

"("THEY") teach you to be proud and unbending in honest failure, but humble and gentle in success; not to substitute words for actions, not to seek the path of comfort, but to face the stress and spur of difficulty and challenge; to learn to stand up in the storm, but to have compassion on those who fall; to master yourself before you seek to master others; to have a heart that is clean, a goal that is high." What are "THEY"? They are in the beginning of Gen. MacArthur's DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY speech. Duty and honor--difficult words because they are mere words to some--life to others. This is LEADERSHIP.

Show no forgiveness, no compassion and the result will be no growth, no learning. You wish to wallow in your anger? And if your current marriage fails, what would you expect from your next relationship? Need a baggage handler?

I am not suggesting that one lays down as a doormat to be stomped on or have dog-doo smeared on. I am suggesting to rise head and shoulders above with forgiveness and compassion.

There is much anger in this thread. Justified? Yeah--Misdirected and counterproductive? It depends--how soon do you want to get on with life w/or w/o your S?

Finally, "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Romans 12:21

I am PP's H.

PP- self serving rationalizations. Bullsht.

*Swooning; hand on forehead*"we all make mistakes"..*

pathetic

[ November 23, 2002, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Family Man ]

Hello Everyone,
I wonder if anyone would agree with me that this is the perfect time to maximum Plan A-for all the reasons that have been stated but also because with his death the OM can no longer be a threat but he can no longer LB either! So there is a danger that Bandit in his attempts to re build with his WW will have to compete with the fond memories of OM, and if things go badly OM's "good qualities" will become magnified to Bandit's disadvantage.

So Bandit I would think allow her to go to the funeral and offer max support and love and allow her to grieve-be the person she turns to . Don't allow yourself to LB by letting her see your true indifference/feelings twds OM-valid though they are.

PacificPrincess, I am sorry you have had a hard time on this thread. But I am afraid that you reveal some classic justification for an A by a WS. And that is offensive to a BS at any stage in the nightmare of infidelity.

Deluded

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by THEOPHILIS:
[QBShow no forgiveness, no compassion and the result will be no growth, no learning. You wish to wallow in your anger? And if your current marriage fails, what would you expect from your next relationship? Need a baggage handler?
.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Theophilis,
You are only half right. We are not supposed to gloat when our enemy fails, but we are not supposed to "forgive" those who A} don't want or need forgiveness and B} don't repent. That is not God's standard and he has made it clear in the Bible that repentence is a condition of forgiveness. We don't pass it out like cheap candy; that is a misuse of forgiveness.

Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4
If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

If any of WW's OPs should die, believe it, I want to be at their funerals. And not because it would provide any closure, it wouldn't. I'd just like to know that world is better off for being rid of another sneaky, spineless,lieing cheat. I can't tell you the satisfaction I'll feel they day I'll know they are on their way to shovel coal.

For your WW to want to go to the funeral is just one more contact with her OP. True, it would be the last one, but it is still a form of expression for contact. One last win for the OP!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LesThanIWas:
If any of WW's OPs should die, believe it, I want to be at their funerals. And not because it would provide any closure, it wouldn't. I'd just like to know that world is better off for being rid of another sneaky, spineless,lieing cheat. I can't tell you the satisfaction I'll feel they day I'll know they are on their way to shovel coal.<hr /></blockquote>Careful, there might be somebody out there for whom you fit those same 'qualities' to a tee.

Remember that the OM only existed because your WW gave herself mind, body and soul. Without her, he would not exist.

MelodyLane

Thank you for your response and insight. I believe that the grace and patience of God is infinite for He is infinite. As for mankind, for as long as the unrepentent has breath in their lungs, I believe His grace and mercy remains. I believe that severe eternal judgement is passed to those who do not repent from "UNBELIEF" that Jesus Christ is LORD. I believe a person who first repents from "UNBELIEF" receives salvation. Turning from wicked ways requires empowerment from the Holy Spirit and to receive that, one must first "BELIEVE." I do NOT believe it is the aberrant BEHAVIOR that God requires repentance FIRST in order to receive forgiveness, IT IS THAT ONE BELIEVES THAT GOD IS AND IS A REWARDER OF THOSE WHO SEEK HIM--Heb. 11:6

Now, as to how that relates to us...

Jesus said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do," as the onlookers mocked and derided Him. They did not repent from the mocking and derision (behavior spurred by unbelief) and yet, that was His request to the Father. I believe somewhere as you probably know, we are told to be imitators of Christ. Where sin abound, grace did all the more abound. Should we be gracious, kind and forgiving to all? Or shall we be selective?

Assuming you know the Bible, look at the corresponding Scriptures in Matt. 18:21-35 to your reference to Luke 17:4. There is more to 17:4 than just that. Let me go a bit further in the Prodigal Son. The father was WAITING WITHOUT ANY GUARANTEE that his son would come home. What would that impy? Grace, mercy or mere stupidity?

My sin of neglecting the most important things on earth, marriage&family, resulted in a lot of hurt. In a round-about-way, maybe I can be called the WS because, the "OW" was my JOB.

So what then is my attitude? The one who goes on sinning condemns himself--if unforgiveness is sin then what am I doing? How would you move on to healing and receiving blessings from God?

Theo,

Unbelief is certainly a sin in the eyes of God, but when we repent we are repenting from other sins and the Bible is replete with evidence of this. Forgiveness is always contingent upon repentence as the verse from Luke states. It doesn't say repent of your unbelief, because that is not the matter between man and his brother, but a matter between man and God. And yes, God does forgive us our sins, but he does not forgive unrepentent sin.

I believe it is a gross misuse and abuse of the act of forgiveness if we hand it out unbidden like cheap candy. When we do that, we are really doing it to make OURSELVES feel good [self righteous and magnanimous], rather than giving a gift to the person who neither wants or needs our forgiveness.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by THEOPHILIS:


So what then is my attitude? The one who goes on sinning condemns himself--if unforgiveness is sin then what am I doing? How would you move on to healing and receiving blessings from God?<hr /></blockquote>Theo, another comment. You are right that unforgiveness is a great sin. However, there are requirements for that forgiveness as I showed above. You are leaving out that important piece. If you say that unforgiveness is a great sin and there are no conditions to forgiveness, then you are basically saying that God is a sinner because he requires repentence of sins [not just THE sin of unbelief, but ALL sin.] Is God a sinner in your view because he doesn't hand out forgiveness to each and every unrepentent person then? Or are you saying then that God places a different standard on us? You see what I mean here? You are missing a key point here.

And just because the process of forgiveness [ie: repentence] isn't mentioned in EACH AND EVERY verse about forgiveness doesn't mean that it has ceased to be a condition. Just like Christ asked that God "forgive them for they know not what they do" does not mean that repentence is not required. It simply means that it was his hope that they would ask for forgiveness.

I think there is also alot of confusion about what forgiveness really means. Do I have to "forgive" the OW in order to release my bitterness towards her? Of course I don't. AGain, forgiveness is for the SINNER, not the sinned against and we don't need to forgive in order to release bitter feelings and heal.

Again, ABSENCE of the word 'repentence' in each and every passage about forgiveness does not negate the ABUNDANCE of passages that show it is a condition. Otherwise the Bible is contradicting itself and I hope you aren't saying that.

Champ wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I look in the obituaries every day hoping to see that SOB name. I have day dreamed about going to his funeral and writing A*s hole on his fore head with magic marker <hr /></blockquote>

I'm so glad to know that someone else does what I do...I read the Obits to see if my H's ex-ow is in there...but alas...I wouldn't go to her funeral, my H and I would be wondering what to do with the illegitimate child that she would have left behind...my H wanted to adopt her out when she was born...such is life....
*sigh*
Twiisty

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Brit's Brat:
[QB][QUOTE] Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
... the initial development of admiration was in no way something I had control over. "Following" feelings and choosing to engage in an affair, on the other hand, ARE actions that requires deliberation and a selfish spirit. <hr /></blockquote>Pacific Princess - Simply because you might "admire" someone does not mean you let it go the next step.

BB--You are correct. But, um, where in my posts did I say that going to the next step was okay? If anything, I think I stated your point (see above) in saying that "following" your feelings is deliberate, selfish and wrong.

I've been attacked in this thread as if I condone the actions of infidels, when all I was doing was expressing the apparent insensitivity and--IMHO--excessive joking on the part of a couple of posters at the expense of the dead, whether we knew this individual or not, when we understand one man's W is hurting at the loss of the life.

I even say that I agree you BS's have every right to hold such anger. I still get blasted...by someone who refers to herself as "psycho-b", no less. Unbelievable. Hate-on, sister....

Personally, I don't think I even belong at MB, for my A was the rare sort that I don't feel most can relate to....strictly an EA along the lines of what MBer ashirley experienced (she also no longer posts here). To my knowledge, there have only been a small handful of EA-ONLY FWS's that have come here in the past (atleast since I've been here since May) and I've noticed that the WH's who are currently taking multiple hookers for years behind their W's backs seem to get flamed by BS's a LOT less than the EA-ONLY WS's that come here! Something's out of balance, IMHO.

I also don't think I belong here because unlike all of the WS's of you BS's here, I DID RECOGNIZE the damage and hurt that going PA would cause EVERYONE IN THE SCENARIO ahead of time and didn't go there; when my friend did proposition me out of pain the week his sep. was legal (by the way, he was sep. from his W who was having a blatant long-term A and lied about it to everyone for 4 yrs....I watched her ugly selfishness hurt him and his kids for years!!), I turned him down, and initiated NC immediately...all this, despite extreme physical attraction and not wanting to lose the friendship...the pass had made that loss inevitable, as far as I was concerned. IT WAS DIFFICULT AS HECK, but I thought with my head, went against my body's wishes and against the extreme emptiness/loneliness I felt in my M (that I'd expressed to my H 4 years earlier, by the way, but he only fruther w/d from his family). Today I regret the hurt the R caused my H and our already-hurting M. At the time I selfishly allowed myself to fantasize about another man and accepted his eventual email flirtations, just because I didn't want to lose the ego-boosts and the feeling of being needed emotionally by someone who was hurting (yes, by a BS!). I let my compassion get the best of me.

So, I let the R go, and actually give God all the credit for blessing me with the wisdom to do the right thing in the end, and shortly after exposing the extent of the A to my H on my own.

Typically, I have never been one who "lives for the moment", in fact, the last day I saw OM I told him that I am one who looks ahead to the consequences, and the only consequences that could come of a PA was chaos (at the time I'll admit that I was thinking more of my son than of my H). I also told him that to have continued emailing him when I was aware I had feelings for him (aka "following my feelings") had been wrong and a mistake.

I tend to be a v. compassionate person (thus my alarm for the lack of compassion I saw in this thread). True, I have never walked in the shoes of a BS whose S had a PA, thus can't empathize with you, but as I made it clear, my close friends have been BS's and I understand you have every right to feel that way. As I also made clear, though, I have lost close friends to death and can, therefore, empathize with Bandit's W's sadness.

BTW, BB also wrote--"Also, "admiration" is one thing - allowing another person to meet EN's that your spouse should be meeting is absolutely, positively WRONG....With regard to the issue at hand - If my FWH's OW died, I would be sad that it happened and, if necessary, would be supportive of my FWH in anyway I saw possible. I think that is the "higher road" here."

BB--You are absolutely correct here, as well. Well put about taking the higher road.

Anyway, this forum really hasn't served me much lately, and having never had a PA or been a BS, I don't feel my opinions are of much value or are highly regarded. My M is on a healthy road to recovery, so I think it's time to move on. So.....toodles!

Peace,

PP, previously "artchick"

My, my. This thread appears to spun completely out of control. While everyone is arguing about what is and isn't morale, what about you Bandit? How are you doing? What is the situation now?

Melody Lane

Thank you again for your response.

Bandit--I apologize for apparently "hijacking" your thread. I was only concerned with the anger and coarse language against the OP/W/M and the WS.

Psycho B--You need not say more--your handle makes it easier to understand where you come from and why you take your stance.

Melody, your comment was bold. No, I do not think God is a sinner. But I do know His grace (God's Riches At Christ's Expense)is infinite. As deep as our sins are, so His grace is more than adequate to redeem us. To wit:

"God demonstrates His love toward us, in that
WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS Christ died for us."

Do I hand out forgivenss like cheap candy? No. Forgiveness, I believe, is a sacrifice. Does it make me feel good and magnanamous--hardly. Because I am sure you would agree, it is among the most difficult thing to do. I perceive that God has an infinite supply of forgiveness ALL READY THERE FOR YOU to receive upon confession.

"Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
May it never be."

Yes--for the believer, may it never be. And you are in agreement that unforgiveness is sin. Let's go a bit further. The life of Joseph. I don't think I have to give you a briefing of his plight--I'm sure you already know. His brothers came to him and asked for forgiveness. Yes there was repentance--but I am intrigued by Joseph's reply.

"Do not be afraid, for am I in God's place?"
And as for you, you meant evil against me,
but God meant is for good in order to bring
about this present result, to preserve many
people alive." Gen. 50:19-20

And furthermore:

"And we know that God causes all things
to work together for good, to those who
love God, to those who are called according
to His purpose." Rom. 8:28

I cannot speak for my W, but I can almost be sure that there was relief when I said to her that I forgave her and the portion of that forgiveness WAS ALREADY THERE EVEN BEFORE SHE ASKED. And if the OM came and asked, my repsonse would be, "I already have" because his portion is there and gaining interest as it sits.

So, do you sit in God's place to mete out punishment and divvy out forgiveness? Neither do I. Forgiveness is a supernatural act as is the ability to sacrifice. What am I sacrificing? The easy road of anger and unforgiveness choosing the more difficult road of a higher calling...to BE forgiving in the most difficult situations. "God is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, NOT WISHING FOR ANY TO PERISH but for all to come to repentance." And to me, this implies that within His abundance of grace, so also is forgiveness...and gaining interest, I might add.

I guess it comes down to what came first, the chicken or the egg--or, as to our exchange, forgiveness or repentance.