This weekend my wife admitted having an affair with a co-worker/friend. It happened during a business trip, 7 months ago. Since then they have talked on the phone but she says that they never discussed what happened. They supposedly haven't talked to each other in 4 months now. I had suspicions for a while and ask her the question point blank a few times over the last few months but she always denied it. This weekend I asked again, she was silent, she put her hands on her face, and finally told me what happened.

She tells me that she didn't love him and doesn't love him now, that she feels terrible about what happened and that she wishes she could change it, that what she did was stupid and that she hates herself for it. She tells me that she was tired of lying to me and that I sure didn't deserve to be treated like this. She also tells me that she is committed to making things work between us and to recover our mariage. I also want to make it work, I love her and I couldn't imagine living without her, we also have two children.

Our relationship wasn't that great before the affair. I think that we just weren't paying much attention to each other - we had a lot going on and we weren't very close. While it's not an excuse to have an affair I still think that in one way or another it contributed to the events. Since the affair, the situation has been difficult as well. She has been distant, depressed, and we have had very little intimacy. We have made love a few times but for example she doesn't kiss me. I think that they are two factors at play here: first we are still not very close, we probably don't talk enough or do enough things together - we are consumed by our heavy work schedules and our kids. Second she feels terrible about what happened, she despises herself for it. She says that she has a hard time being physically close when we are emotionally distant.

Since I found out about the affair I have been going through a roller-coaster of emotions. From anger to being nice and wanting to rebuild our mariage, from wanting hugs to wanting to throw her out of the house. Strangely I have some form of separation anxiety as well, I want to be with her all the time now, literally next to her, I don't like being alone anymore. I wonder if that's because part of me feels that I could have completely lost her. I cannot imagine my life without her but I know that it's going to be very difficult for me to get over this betrayal.

One aspect that I am perseverating over right now are the details of the affair. What day did it start on? Who initiated? How many days did it last? At this point I am even asking her what sexual acts were performed. She has been fairly open about everything but refuses to discuss the details of the affair, specifically the sexual acts. She tells me that it's pointless and too difficult for her to talk about that. In some way I see that as an act of defiance, as if once again she was lying to me, hiding things from me, for some reason. But at the same time I wonder if I should know those sexual details or not, will that help me or will that hurt me, is there really any point in me knowing this? I also sense that pushing her over and over with those questions is driving her away from me and further delaying the rebuiling of our mariage. Do you have any advice along those lines? Should I try to find out those sexual details? Please help me I am so desperate right now.

Im sorry this has happened, you know there was an affair, you feel you need to know the details, it hurts. Know ing the details will hurt more. If you love your wife and want to salvage your marriage get to a counsler ASAP. Work on what.

Asterix, I know exactly how you feel. If anything though, I think you are in a better situation than I am in...at least your wife wants to work it out. Mine has told me on several occasions that she doesn't want to work things out...but for some strange reason she is still living with me. We have a 2 year old daughter together.

If I can offer any advice, it's to hang in there. I too had many of those same emotions you are going through. They lasted for about a month or two, but still continue to creep back into my mind today from time to time. My wife is totally against counseling. I went to see a counselor myself, but it really didn't help me much. Although one piece of advice from the counselor has helped a little bit...start journaling. Write down things on paper about how you feel. It sort of helps relieve yourself.

You sound much like myself when I found out. Shocked. In the first month alone I lost almost 30 pounds...not exactly a healthy way for losing weight. I hope I was able to help you out. Hang in there...I have a feeling we both have a long road ahead of us.

I mentioned the counselor to my wife but she says that it may be too early. She says that she would be too embarassed to admit what she did to a stranger. That the thought of doing that is overwhelming to her right now.

Sadmm,

Thanks for your note. In a way I agree that it is all very relative, or different degrees of 'bad' if you will. I tell myself that it could have been worse: she could be pregnant with his child, the affair could still be going on, she could be in love with him, she could still be seeing him on a daily basis, she could not be interested in rebuilding a life with me, etc. The affair took place right before we relocated the whole family to another state for her work, so in a way it was impossible for the affair to continue, at least physically. Emotionnally she tells me that there was nothing romantic in their discussions or phone calls after this happened - they are in the same business and apparently their chats were all business. Now they haven't spoken in months. Part of me thinks that they both realized very quickly that they are done something very wrong, a big mistake, and that they were stupid to risk all they had for that week of sex. He also has a successful career and three kids. About that she actually told me that she also felt very bad because out of this she also lost a good friend. She also tells me that she may need some closure on that, maybe talking to him to apologize for contributing to ruining this friendship. Obviously their relationship will never be the same now. At this time I have told her that I didn't want her to contact him ever again. I have also sent an email and left a voice mail to the guy demanding the same thing. He hasn't responded to anything yet, and I don't think that he will.

I have indeed felt that journaling helps. In fact I am trying to kill two birds with one stone there, I journal my feelings in emails that I send her throughout the day. Like this it is also a way for me to communicate with her, something that was lacking between the two of us before. She also reads about what I am going through and she responds with words of encouragement and reinforcing her love for me and how much she cares. I don't know if it's a good idea for me to do this, but it helps. I feel calmer inside when I can write it down, it buys me a few minutes of peace before the anxiety comes back.

I learned about this thing on Saturday morning but I still made reservations for a dinner and a night at the Ritz with her for Valentine's day. The evening went well, in a way we were both trying not to bring up the affair and enjoy each other's company. For me it took a real effort not to ask questions about this, it was a bit artificial maybe but we had a nice evening. I thought about 'depositing love units' as I have read in a column.

One of my toughest moments is at night when I am lying in bed next to her and the lighs are turned off. So many images come to mind and they haunt me, I imagine their sexual encounter, how it happened, what happened, and it drives me crazy. I am losing sleep over this. My appetite has also been terrible - I skip breakfast, lunch, and only eat a little bit for dinner - I easily feel noxious. I am getting a lot of physical symptoms right now from feeling sick, to feeling cold, and I have waves of anxiety.

Asterix,

It sucks! All I can tell you is, everything you are going thru is normal.

Take it very slow on the type of information you ask. Those images you have at night of your W are vague compared to what you might depict if you knew more. Sounds like she is embarrassed, and protecting you also. If you do feel you need more info, take it slow. She should let you know anything you want, but from my experience.. Don't get details.

You are right, it could be worse, but that does not stop it from being probably one of the most crushing events you will "or should" ever have to deal with.

Read all you can here, and best of luck.

Asterix, I agree with what Justkeeptrying said. Take it slow. When I found out about the affair, my wife gave me some details which I feel actually made it even worse for me. Even worse than that, she told me she had a lot of feelings for him and was in love with him. She then went on to say I could never satisfy her, or make her happy the way he can. All of those things HURT EXTREMELY HARD !!!...to this day, over 3 months later.

Sadmm,

What your wife told you is indeed incredibly crushing. I cannot imagine how you must have felt when you heard those words. Obviously at this point I cannot provide any insights or advice about any of this. My head is still under water and I don't have any perspective on any of that stuff. But thank you so much for talking to me and responding to my messages. It feels good to talk.

JustKeepTrying,

Yes she feels very embarrassed and ashamed of herself, not necessarily for the details of what happened but for the fact that it happened at all. Basically she keeps repeating that she is 'ashamed' and that discussing the details 'would serve no purpose'. Part of me wants to rush through this so that maybe the pain will go away faster. But I also understand that there are certain things that I can't hurry. I will take your advice about getting to the details - anyway it seems that it creates even more tension when I start probing and in the end it may not be worth it.

What do you all think about the 'closure' that she talks about? The fact that they never discussed what happened. She told me that at some point she may want to apologize to him, probably for having ruined their friendship. How could that help me or us? She tells me that it was both their fault, that one was not more at fault than the other for what happened - so in a way I don't understand why she would want to apologize. Maybe she should just leave it alone. They haven't talked in over four months anyway and with the email that I sent him and the voice mail that I left on his voice mail, I doubt that it will try to initiate any discussion.

The only recommendation I would give would be to follow the advise you will find all over this board. Which is the "NC" No Contact letter.

Sending a NC letter that requires no response. She can explain what a mistake she has made, and to please respect her wishes to work on her M by not attempting any further contact.

Regarding the discussing details serving no purpose. I have read BS wanting details, and others like myself that did not. When my W and I talked about her A, I fould a line where I decided I had heard enough detail and just wanted confirmation she really wanted me and our M.

This will not be something thats fixed or goes away over night. I am coming up on 2 years, and it's a work in progress "as you can see" I still come here and read every day. But it's much better than it was days, weeks, even months after the initial wound.

On a positive note I really believe we were lucky to survive, and that as a result we stay focused on how difficult and important our M is.

Is your W reading here also?

Also some other things the two of you should do together.

Read SAA - Surviving an Affair
HSHN - His Needs Her Needs

Make a plan to do things together at least once a week. "Date Night" "Movie Night" etc...

I have actually ordered the book 'surviving an affair' today and told her that I would like both of us to read it. I have also printed out the 'emotional needs' questionnaire and I would like both of us to fill it out. It may help.

At this time I haven't told her about this site, just that I had been visiting some discussion groups on the topic. The problem is that, unlike me, she really doesn't much of an opportunity to be on the Web during the day - and in the evening she never spends any time on the computer just because between the kids and the household things there is just too much to do before we need to go to bed.

After our Valentine date this week I also told her that it would be nice to spend some more time one-on-one, like the movie/dinner dates you are talking about. She seemed agreeable. Not always easy to do that with the kids but we will try.

One thing that I think is a little weird about all this is that I seem to be doing all the work - even though I am the one who was cheated on. I surf the sites, I buy a book, I organize a date, I am the one trying to come up with a plan - while she does just seem to sit back and let nature take its course. Is that normal?

Im not sure if it's normal, but I can certianly relate. I have a feeling alot of that depends on personality type.

I suspect, you like me want to have a plan of action, with a vision, and a goal. If I were to summarize what I see looking at my W's planning. I see controlled chaos!

The good of this mix is, what stresses me doesn't phase her, and vise versa.

I can relate on the schedule. We have 3 kids 14/13/5. Also my second job: Competitive Soccer Dad.

I highly recommend doing the EN questionaire. Don't do it together, do it indivually and swap when done. I had to bug my W 2 months to get that done.

My W had no desire to read here either, but she is proactive in her own quiet way.

On date night. Switch it up. One week you make the plans, the next it's her turn. That should give you an indication of where she stands. Don't reminder just mention it once, and see if she follows thru.

My W and I will just do little things together " run to the store for bread and milk". Got to the point she hates to go alone.

When I really see results is when I take things of her busy plate and do them myself. She will rarely ask for help so I have to do the "mind reader thing" all to often.

At this point I am a bit stressing about the 'counseling' thing. I have read a few things and I feel that unless we go to counseling right away we are doomed. Others are talking about 'coaching' as a bridge to counseling but with the same level of urgency. The problem is that my wife doesn't feel comfortable going to counseling at this time, she is ashamed and doesn't want to talk to a stranger about this. Part of me also feels that I am rushing, that I should just let the dust settle, I just heard about the affair 5 days ago. Any advice about this counseling thing? What determines whether you need counseling or not?

At this point my plan is to:
- spend some quality time together, talk, and try to reconnect. Count our blessings. Try to be nice and comforting for each other, do nice things for each other. Obviously I will be struggling with my anger and sadness, and she may be struggling with her shame along the way. My rationale here is that these are not only pleasant things to do together but it also addresses what I believe was/is a deeper issue in our couple, that is the emotional distance/disconnect that we had before the affair and since the affair.
- read the book and fill out the questionnaires
- after a while, if we are not making much progress and spinning our wheel, seek counseling.

What's wrong with this short/medium-term plan?

Hi asterix! I really feel for you. Have you thought about individual counselling for yourself? This helped me immensely in the first couple of months after D-Day. I attended about 4 sessions, then gave it a rest over Christmas to "let the dust settle". I now feel that I am ready to go back again as I still feel very hurt and angry.


My FWH has not yet gone to counselling as he too feels very embarrassed and ashamed. However the two of us have talked so much over the last five months about everything and we continue to keep the lines of communication open every day. Things are slowly working out for us, despite my regular feelings of anger, despair and disbelief (I don't think the disbelief will ever go away!).


I was so nervous when I first went to the counsellor as I am a very private person. I saw a female counsellor and felt very awkward at first. But when she said, "How can I help you?", the floodgates opened. It was actually easier to talk to someone who did not know either of us. The C did not judge either my FWH or myself.


I think that if you find that you are consumed/obsessed with thoughts of what has happened in the past and feel that the future looks cloudy, then you need counselling (or at least a good impartial friend to talk to). If you can't function normally day-to-day you need counselling. If you are having feelings of despair and feel there is no-one to talk to, you need counselling. Asterix, keep up the lines of communication with your wife. Perhaps try the individual counselling if you feel you need it (it is up to you how many sessions you attend). Then you could try to allay your wife's fear of counselling by telling her of your experience.


Good plan! This is what my FWH and I are doing.


It's a great first step. After all, we can only take one day at a time and try to make the most of it. Later on down the track you may both decide that you are ready for marriage counselling, but by this stage you might have moved past this. Who knows? I think recovery is like a spiral - just when we think we've gone past a certain emotion, it spirals back and smacks us in the face again!

Keep up the reading and look at this forum for tips. There are many experienced people here. Relaxation tapes and meditation tapes may help both you and your wife. Keep up a healthy diet and regular exercise to combat stress. (Something that I have gotten back into since the new year).

As an aside - In the first few days after D-day, I insisted on my husband telling me anything and everything, including all the sexual things, about his affair. He was a bit reluctant to tell me, but he wanted to do whatever I requested. I thought I wanted to know this but now after 5 months the "gory" details are permanently etched in my mind.

I hope everything works out for you both.

Cheers <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't worry - as your M gets better during recovery, you will obsess less and less about those details that you found out.

I found that what helped in my case was to write them out (along with all the other details of the A) and file them away somewhere.

Last night was tough. Right before dinner I started probing into the timeline of this whole thing. Originally I though that the affair was limited to that week during the 'business trip'. Yesterday I came to find out that they have been romantically involved for one to two weeks before that, no sex, but obviously kissing and things like that. She had only told me about the 'sex' part of the affair, not mentioning the rest as she had put that under the umbrella of 'details'. I really lost it... I yelled at her, called her terrible names, told her to get out of the house, I cried, she cried, at one point I packed a bag and she begged me to stay. We are both exhausted by this whole situation. She tells me that she shakes when we are in the same room because she is so stressed about all the probing questions that I will ask her and that she is always afraid to say the wrong thing. On the other hand I am so disappointed and hurt that she wouldn't tell me the whole story. At this point she is asking me for a break, to stop asking her questions and mentioning what happened for a couple of days. I will try. I think we both need a rest.

At this point this thing is obviously impacting my work - it's in my head pretty much all the time. At work I think about this a lot, contribute to this forum, send emails to my wife and talk to her on the phone. I have a strong need to communicate and express those feelings. At night as soon as the lights are turned off, images of the affair come to my head and make falling asleep very difficult. My emotions are a mix of dispair, anger, love for her, and a hope that in some way our mariage can get stronger out of this.

I think that at some point I/we will need to see a counselor, I just don't know if I can manage all these emotions and live a happy life based on my sole insights. What makes me hopeful is that my wife and I want things to work out and want to get over this. I think that we both realize that it's going to be very difficult. Hopefully with time and with a relationship that will improve we will be able to move on.

Astrix,

Again all very normal. You might consider having your W tell you everything about the timeline anyway. This way you can brace yourself for the information she has, and you don't have to deal with finding out on your own. Avoiding the shock of piecing it together.

As for the counseling. Most will recommend it, and I believe over all it would be helpful. I on the otherhand had a bad experience. So finding the right couselor is key.

Our couselor told my W not to inform me of the A. She also told my W she was done with the M and to move on. I sent her an Email telling her how and why her methods where pathetic. As expected I received no response.

I think I know everything about the timeline right now but as we discussed over the last couple of days I don't think that it will be healthy to get into too many other details. I think that part of me was hoping that this was purely 'physical' and spur of the moment kind of thing, knowing about the couple of weeks that led to it uncovered an 'emotional' and romantic element that I was hoping wouldn't be there. This being said she tells me that she didn't and doesn't 'love' him, i.e. the way she loves me. But obviously he was a good friend of hers so 'love' feelings were involved - 'love' is such a broad term that I probably shouldn't get into the details of its meaning.

I think that I will eventually try the counselor thing. Although I sure don't want to have a counselor that convinces my wife to leave me - that's crazy! I would like to have someone that helps me sort out my emotions to help me go through the day. Right now I have little control over those emotions and it affects me in a lot of ways. The tough part is also that I not only have to manage my emotions but I also feel responsible for managing hers. I don't want to hurt her or stress her because then it drives us apart and it takes a huge amount of effort and restraint on my part to rebuild some warmth.

Ya I remember all that. I got the "I love you as the father of my children" but not in love with you speech.

My wife told me it was mostly and EA, and the SF was a biproduct of that connection. Luckily she got to see the OM's true colors before I found out. When she told him she was returning to her M. She avoided him. He got jealous she dropped him, then he decided I should know the truth. Like he gave a crap about me! He was just taking revenge on her.

So when I ask her months later if she thinks about OM. She would say "I would love for him to see us together" Just so he knows his plan didn't work.

Anyway, enough thread jacking on my part for one day.

Maybe you can try IC. That will give you an idea of the type of couselor you would be dealing with if it gets to MC. Also help you work on your issues?

What you might also need is a *plan*, a way that both of you agree to, to approach the sensitive issue of discussing details about the A, if and only if you believe that knowing those details is important to you. You MUST make it a "safe" environment to do so - calling her names and telling her to get out of the house isn't going to work.

What I did with my FWW is used the "15 Steps of Unfaithfullness" to put together a timeline of her A, and out of that exercise many questions were asked and answered on a day we set aside for that purpose. You can read the rest of that story in the "Recovery" forum. The approach we used worked fairly well.



All to be expected. I guess in my case it helped that I went through something similar with her before. It still hurt like crazy though, but I know we recovered to have a better relationship the last time - I'm hoping that this happens this time as well, though the prospects don't look as good as they did last time. It took years to recover though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.



All to be expected.



If both of you really feel that way, then things WILL work out. Again, I'm basing this on past experience - I'm not just blabbing. Don't expect it to work out overnight though - the pain of betrayal will take quite a long time to dissipate.

Yes we are both committed to making things work - I know I am and she tells me that she is. Today I also spoke with a counselor, I was really nervous on the phone, I guess that it's not easy to tell a stranger that your couple needs help because your wife has had an affair. In any case, at first I thought that I was going to go alone but he told me that the 'patient' is the 'couple' and that if my wife is committed to working things out then she will have to get over the embarassment of talking to a stranger. I called my wife, told her what he said, and she accepted to go with me. It will take a couple of weeks before we can make it there but at least we have a plan now and some actions to take. In some way it helps me to know that. I have never been to a counselor before - any things I should look out for?

Hi Asterix,

Try showing your wife this letter...

http://www.dearpeggy.com/com023.html

Im going to have my h read this, maybe he will talk honestly about his affairs and not just say they were friends.. in fact we need a topic on men and women being just friends

I showed my wife the letter that "I'm Natalie" passed along. She read it. At this point there is still a 'boundary' of details that she will not cross but she also understands my point of view, at least I think she does. Earlier this week when she shared some additional details with me at my request, I exploded out of anger, it was not a good scene, I basically terrorized her, and obviously this worked against her openness. It will take time I guess to know the whole story and at times I even wonder if I really want to know all the details. But I want to feel that it's my decision, not hers. A day like today I wonder if I will ever be able to go on with my life, I feel so betrayed and so insecure about myself. I really don't know how I will ever be able to trust her again when she goes on a business trip or even when she is at work. Will I have be suspicious, will I ever be able to put my guard down again? This is so incredibly difficult for me.

Wow, I wish I had read this before I posted mine, this is the closest to my situation, that I have read. I know exactly what you are going through, my husband has been very open, and tries to tell me whatever I ask, even if I ask over and over, and it's 3:00 in the am, I will pray for you and your wife, and hope you can get past this.

Well even though I promised my wife I would try not to ask any questions this weekend, I did. At first she was very defensive and told me that there were details that she did not want to share because it 'would serve no purpose', she followed with 'it's my decision not to share certain things'. I was saying things like 'it's my right to know', 'I should be the one who decides what I need ot know to get over this', etc. Eventually she told me everything I wanted to know - personally in some way I feel better but she feels terrible. She feels like I didn't respect her choice not to answer certain questions and forced her - maybe I pushed too hard, or maybe I pushed too early, but all the information is on the table now. I was very careful to stay calm and not show any strong emotions when she would tell me the answers. Every now and then she would look at me straight in the eyes, angered and annoyed, and would ask me 'why would you want to know that?'. But she sat there, next to me, face in her hands, and answered everything. I didn't want to get into the sexual details of the affair, i.e. the actual acts that were performed. At first part of me wanted to know everything but I thought about it and I feel that that part doesn't matter right now. In a way I made the choice not to ask about that and I told her up front. At the end I thank her for her honesty, it was not a pleasant discussion for us, even less for her, but I am glad that she didn't keep hiding those things from me. I would have always wondered if there was something even more terrible under all this that she hadn't told me yet - and I didn't want my imagination to get the best out of me - I didn't want to still be wondering 3 months or a year from now as to what really happened. Now I think I know. Afterwards I took her in my arms, she didn't really respond. She is shutting down right now.

Wow! I read your story and thought I was writing mine! Very similar. My wife just told me 3 days ago that she had an affair. It started 2 years ago and she is just telling me know, as part of some "clearing" she's doing. She wants to work things out but I can't even fathom the possibility of that at this stage.

Her affair was both sexual and emotional. She told me she slept with him 3 times. But I used my detective skills and found all his previous/ past phone numbers and searched her cell phone bills. It turns out she talked with him every day for 4 months and has had contact with him up until last December.

Now I've read on this website that most affairs are kept secret. Well, the affair was kept secret but he wasn't. I knew she was meeting with him, but as Dr.Harley says, I shouldn't have completely trusted her as I did. They were taking a self-employment program together. She was helping him with his work. He even came over and helped put in a storage cabinet at our house! I even talked with him on a few occasions. As I write this I think how could I have been so blind! I obviously wasn't meeting her needs. How could she so blatantly put him in my face and my life as a "friend" of hers when they were clearly more.........

I am struggling to cope. I told myself when I got married that this was a commitment that I would not break it with infidelity on my part. If I felt that way I would work it out or leave the marriage. I also told myself I would never accept it, for whatever reason. I never in a million year believed it would happen. We were supposed to be soulmates, evn though we had our intimacy problems that we, obviously, failed to improve upon.

We have a 4 year old and a 6 year old. We already had plans in the works to move to another city.

I need some suggestions from those that have been through something similar. Right now I am going through all those highs and lows. I want to be with her, and she does with me, but don't know if I'll ever get over this.....

asterix,

OK, you already know your previous reaction to her confessions was not a good thing. And it looks like you have done an excellent job rectifying that by making her feel loved and safe after the last discussion. Good!! You might think about writing your questions down on a piece of paper and making a specific day and time to discuss your marriage and the affair. This usually helps in a couple of ways. It gives you a set aside uninterupted TIME to talk, instead of several times a day. (If you're like me I thought about it 24/7 and had new questions every 5 min!!) It gives the FWS alittle breathing room, instead of constantly being onguard for the NEXT round of questions. It helps you to decide which questions are REALLY important to have answered. And it gives you the rest of the time to reconnect, to bond and to work on rebuilding!

Also, have you considered counseling with the Harleys? Check out the Marriage Builders Counseling and Coaching Center link for information. Rather expensive but I have never heard anyone here say it was a waste of time OR money! Every says great things about their help. Also she may be more receptive to counseling if she doesn't have to look directly at the counselor and can have a phone conversation instead. And I can assure you,, They ARE PRO-MARRIAGE!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes I do have new questions every 5 minutes and I know that it's a lot for her to face that barrage of new questions at every moment of the day or night: I ask her questions in the car, in bed, in the kitchen, while watching TV, just all the time - pretty much whenever they start boiling inside me. Your suggestions to make a specific time/day to ask a batch of questions sounds like a good idea. I will probably struggle with having enough patience to wait until that moment but it would indeed make things easier on her, at least I think so. The phone counseling may indeed be an option - we have a hard time scheduling appointment with a counselor any way because of our work schedules. I will look into it.

I am at a point now where the emotional involvement they had for each other during the affair is almost harder to handle than the physical element. I also mourn the life we had together and I know that it will never be the same again now. Best case scenario we would carry along the good memories, our experiences together, and of course our two beautiful children. But the rest will have to be reconstructed from scratch if we ever want to have any hope of being happy together again. Trust will need to be completely earned again, there will be no 'benefit of the doubt' anymore, no blind trust, at least not for a very long time - if ever. I will probably remain very suspicious of her friendships, long hours at work, or business trips. I really hope that I have it in me to move on but I am not always sure I do. Some days I am hopeful about our future, our days I am not.

Man - I am still haven't a hard time today - I can't seem to get anything done. I run in circles. I have just finished looking at the pictures I had of the last four years and tried to systematically delete all the ones that had the 'guy' on them. I have indeed know the guy for 4 years, he was a co-worker of my wife and came to my house a number of times with his family for parties. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't have to come across his face in the future. Sometimes I really wonder if I will ever be able to move on. The pain is so deep and so intense - can anyone ever live a normal life after something like this happen? It is even still difficult to accept the fact that my wife would do something like this, then lie, hide evidence, and keep this terrible secret from me for 7 months. I thought I knew her, she was a person whose integrity and honesty I would have never challenged. I felt that she was so much better than me in those things. Now I realize that she wasn't, it's tough...

She is also still disappointed that I would persist in asking her questions about the things that she didn't want to tell me. In a way she thinks that I didn't respect her wishes or boundaries - and obviously it doesn't make it comfortable for her to talk to me about those things, i.e. the what, when, and how of the affair. I really don't know what to say about that. I am in phase where I want everything to be on the table, all the issues to be articulated. I want to have an answer to my questions, regardless of what they are. I am curious and I wonder. The feelings she has right now about the questions that I ask, I see them as a form of collateral damage, a cost of doing business. I no longer want to have terrorizing burst of anger but I still want answers to my questions.

asterix,

Yes, I know you want it over with,,RIGHT NOW! You want it ALL out on the table so you can absorb it, understand, make decisions, stop the bleeding and heal. Somehow it doesn't seem to work that way. If you learn nothing else during this period, you WILL learn the meaning of PATIENCE!

Asterix, accept the fact you are NEVER going to understand. That's a given. There was no reason, no excuse to go outside the marriage when problems or the opportunity arose. Infidelity solves nothing and only adds to the problems. And you aren't going to find logic in the illogical,,sense in a senseless action. There may have been problems within the marital relationship that made her seek comfort or attention elsewhere but that is not an excuse.

Trust? No, it will be a longgg time before you will be able to trust her again. Blind trust was NEVER a good thing. We can't put our spouse on a pedestal and expect them to stay there indefinately without toppling. Even Dr Harley says --
The details. Make SURE you want them. If you do, I understand. I did. Do what I suggested earlier. Make that list. And at that set-aside time, assure her that the questions you ask will NOT be asked again when you receive answers. And realize this may take some time if and when she's able to answer them. I didn't get answers for a long time. One more hint--LISTEN! Listen to her answers. Allow her time to think, to fully reply to what you've asked. Don't interupt, ask new questions, finish her sentences for her. You'd be amazed what you can learn when you just LISTEN!

Opsss,,double post! How'd I do that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Nerlycrzy,

Very good suggestions - thank you. I feel that I have a theory about some of the things that happened, I will ask her questions trying to prove my theories, and when her answers don't go that way, I will perseverate, insist, and drill, as if I was trying to convince her that I was right or that she wasn't truthful. Last night I woke her up at 1:00AM, printed some phone records, and was trying to prove to her that her depression in the months that followed the affair was because she missed him, not because the felt so ashamed about what happened as she told me. I was literally trying to convince her that she had been crazy about him, that he was still 'in her head', otherwise why would she have called him so many times. Not that I want her to be crazy about him but I feel that what she told me and her actions are in contradiction. In a way I am trying to tell her 'see, I proved that even now you are still lying to me'. Maybe those are just side effects of having your trust violated, you get paranoid, you think everything is a lie.

If I don't understand why it happened, and if she doesn't understand why it happened either (she tells me she still doesn't know), then how can we hope to reconstruct, how can we take the necessary steps to prevent it from happening again, how can we make sure that we are focusing on the root causes of the problem and not some side effect? Isn't understanding WHY it happened an important step in making sure it doesn't happen again? Is that the purpose of counseling, to find the WHY?

Trust will indeed be very difficult, I think that I will always have doubts. But at the same time what choices do I have? I cannot have her followed, I cannot be with her every single minute of every day, I cannot prevent her from going to work or having a cell phone, I cannot prevent her from developing new friendships - while I cannot trust, I have to trust. How have you handled this? Obviously I am hyper-sensitive to clues right now, I will probably keep scanning her cell phone records and she knows that. So part of me also thinks that she would be stupid to leave evidence any way.

Patience is definitely not one of my qualities - I want to have an answer to all my questions right away - but I realize that it doesn't work like that. To tell you the truth I think that she doesn't even have answers to all of them right now. When I get an "I don't know", I will often say "What do you mean you don't know?" as if she had answers to everything or just didn't want to tell me. I think she doesn't and is still trying to understand herself why it happened.

Can a couple truly recover from something like this even if they really love each other. Can there be love and a fulfilling relationship when there is no trust? How can you be comfortable and open yourself when you know you can get stabbed? How can one move on?

Hi Asterix,

You said...



What I got out of counselling was exactly that...an understanding of how my husband and our marriage got to the point where an affair was possible. He had to uncover what led him down that path (poor communication skills, family history) and we had to learn how to communicate our needs better and strengthen and protect the marriage (clear boundaries). The process involved individual as well as marital counselling.


Asterix, the truth is, your wife has shown herself to be untrustworthy. Now she needs to show she is worthy of your trust. That means she needs to be AN OPEN BOOK. She needs to welcome your checking on her. She needs to be where she says she's going to be and when and with whom she's going to be there. Everytime you catch her in a TRUTH (rather than a LIE), your trust in her will build a little more...until one day you don't have a need to check up on her anymore. Of course, it takes time and willing spirits from both of you.

Good luck, Asterix. I know how much this all hurts so so badly. One of the best pieces of advice I got was from my counsellor when I asked for "homework". She said, "Your homework is to have FUN together. Go out and do something you both enjoy. You deserve it!" All the fun memories we started to have began to replace all the terrible images and memories I had. So, Asterix, take a deep breath, give yourself a break and plan something really fun to do. You DESERVE it. And, oh yeah, keep up with the counselling, eh?

Cheers,
Natalie

asterix - you have come to the right place. All of these great people here will help you heal. The hurt and pain are unbearable. I read somewhere that the grief you experience over marital betrayal is worse than grieving a death of a loved one. There is nothing you can do about death, and nothing you do or did could have changed the outcome. The person you grieve for is gone.

Well, this is much worse. They're still here, and you don't know the real truth. But please know that grieving is a process. You will go through all the stages of grief. I highly recommend two books: "Affairs" by Emily Brown, and "After the Affair" by Janus Spring. Both you and your wife should read them.

You sound a lot like me - wanting it all to be solved and explained immediately. From my signature, you can see I've had a rough road. This last time, I immediately made an appointment with my physician and she prescribed some medication to help keep my emotions from getting the best of me so I could function through this very difficult time. I gotta tell you, it works great! I also let my boss at work know that I was having severe marital difficulties - some of my deadlines were released.

I, too, needed details. My H saw no point, didn't want me to hurt further. But you know what - when I finally got all the details, even (maybe especially) the physical ones, the images of my H with these women went away. They weren't any better than me. Issues in our marriage contributed, but it's something that just "happened" to him. We have to figure out why he let it. It's a ton of work.

I'm soooo glad that you and she are committed to working this out. The more you read and understand, with time, the hurt will fade. Counseling is a must right now.

take care - you have a lot of support on this site.

Last night was another long night. I had a bunch of questions in my head and I had to wake her up to talk about them. This is the second day in a row that I have to wake her up. This time something was different - even though she was not happy that I woke her up, she kept the conversation going and volunteered some information. I didn't have to drag every little bit of information out of her, and that felt good. She clarified and corrected a few things that she said to me before.

At this time my mind is perseverating on her feelings for him, not necessarily her feelings now (she tells me that she didn't love him, doesn't love him now, and doesn't want to be with him) but also about her feelings then, and her feelings and thoughts in the weeks and months after the affair when they were physically separated (we live in a different state than he does). I keep asking the same questions over and over again, sometimes trying to vary the way I ask them just in case the answer would be different. Questions like: "did you ever think about leaving me to be with him?", "did you miss him after that week?" (here she will usually tell me that she 'missed their friendship' but didn't miss him as a lover nor the affair that they had), "Did you want to get back with him after that week" (here she told me yesterday that at one point he had talk about meeting her at a professional conference, possibly in the hope of being intimate with her again, but she told me that she didn't want that to happen, that at that time she had already decided that she didn't want to live a double life - the conference never materialized so it didn't become an issue), "how much of your depression in the weeks and months after the affair was due to withdrawal from him?" (here again she tells me that she missed the "friend" but that she was incredibly ashamed, embarassed, and worthless about what she did and that was the core of her depression - she tells me that she was mourning us and what we had because she knew it could never be the same because of what she did - and that she lived in fear that I wouldn't want to be with her when it finally got out). My mind is going 100 miles an hour. She is doing the best she can to answer my questions but she doesn't have answers to everything. Sometimes she will tell me "I don't know", she tells me that she wasn't thinking clearly at the time and that she doesn't have a log of all the emotions and thoughts she had at the time, that her emotions were ambivalent also and haven't been sorted out.

Even though I tell her that I am committed to making things work out, I don't think that she is convinced of that. She knows that I am going through a roller-coaster of emotions and she doesn't know where I will end up, i.e. stay with her or separate. I told her that truth and honesty are out best medicines right now and that the only thing that could make me change my mind about staying with her is finding out that she is still deceiving me.

Man - it has been a rough ride since 2/11 when she first admitted it. I have completely exhausted by the process and so is she.

I just got off the phone with my wife and I still find myself probing into the sexual details of the affair. She will sometimes deny some of my theories but still refuses to share the details with me. That has been the case ever since she told me about the affair. Basically she tells me that she feels ashamed and uncomfortable telling me those things, and shuts me down when I cross a certain line. I go back and forth between wanting to know and not wanting to know. Part of me probably wants to know if he was a better lover than me or if she gave herself more to him than she does/did to me. There are obviously a lot of insecurities mixed in here, thinking that this happened because I was not good enough in some way - despite the fact that she denies that.

While there are still certain things that she doesn't know or doesn't know how to answer, I feel that there are still those facts there, like the sexual acts, that she knows about and that she keeps for herself. Knowing myself I think that I won't be able to let this go, I assume that I will keep trying until at some point I get the answers that I need. It will take time and maybe I will never know or maybe I will get tired of asking and will move on. In a way I feel that this is a battle of the wills right now. She feels that she doesn't have to share those 'details' with me because they would serve no purpose and are hurtful for her to talk about, on the other hand I have this feeling of 'entitlement', that I am entitled to know, as some form of compensation for what happened.

I am also getting the impression that my wife didn't initiate the affair (I have asked many questions on this point), just like in the case of 'twotimes', my wife let it happen, went along with it, and didn't stop it. This being said she clearly tells me that it's not an excuse and she is not shifting the blame, she accepts full responsibility for what happened. It doesn't make it easier for me to accept the facts but I wonder if prevention takes another form in this case, or is the question of 'who initiated?' completely irrelevant? In other words, are the steps that the cheating husband/wife take different in preventing future reoccurences depending on whether they were the initiator or not. This being said, I am wondering if this is still for me a form of denial - or maybe just trying to find some circumstances that make the pill easier to swallow and give me more hope for the future, in which case it would be more of a coping mechanism.

As a form of counseling my wife was also talking about the possibility of talking to a priest - does anyone have experience with this approach vs. another type of counselor?

Hello Asterix.

I only today read this thread because my H referred me to it due to the extreme similarities of the A, the feelings and responses/reactions that you and your WS are facing. I am a FWS and who visits these forums from time to time, especially when referred to by my H when he posts anything major about us.

All of the responses here seem to be from BS. Again that is the norm since I am certain that most of the visitors here are BS, not WS. I will try to offer you some insight into a FWS if only to give you some little comfort in knowing that your W is going through what other WS go through. I say this from reading other posts but in particular, from knowing my own feelings, responses, and reactions to my BS. He was as driven and determined as you are, if not more, in finding out the whys and the details of the A. You seem to be off to a good start in that you managed to get this information from her so early after D-Day. I was a bit more reluctant than that.

It is good that you have been able to make it safer for her to be more open with you. Your angry outbursts and reactions to anything that she has told you so far however still weighs heavily in her mind. This may be the one and only reason that she is unwilling to share further details with you. It is NOT because she wants to keep any details secret between her and the OM or is trying to keep good feelings about the A. Please know that she honestly does not want to hurt you any more. My H insisted on knowing details and as much as I objected because I also did not see what purpose it served and I did not want to expose him to any more hurt, I eventually shared the details with him, reluctantly, but only because he was able to convince me that he needed to hear this for his recovery and that I hurt him more by not sharing it. He says now (8 months since D-Day but less since revelation of details) that he does not regret asking and that it did help, but I still feel that he would have been better off not knowing some of the details. It is those details that haunt our recovery and provide "triggers" that make it that much more difficult to move forward. This is MY belief only. My H, along with many other BS will disagree. It is also my belief that BH seem to want to know these details more than BW but are less able to deal with it when they eventually find out. As someone advised before, make sure you really need to know these details. You have to know why you need to know these details and what difference does it make to you to know. I am not questioning you, I am simply advising you to question yourself before you regret insisting on knowing the details. Once you know, you have to live with it, and if your W thinks that she will be reminded of it by you for the rest of her life, she will hesitate to share it with you. Would you be willing to put it behind you once it comes out? Can you?

My H, like you, was the one who initiated accessing resources and materials to aid our recovery. I was not opposed to it, but I did not embrace it like he did. We actually did some major LBing when he insisted that I did not want to actively pursue our recovery.

Eight months into recovery and it has been a roller-coaster of emotions - from day to day. Does it get better? I'm not sure if "better" is the right word. Feelings jump from despair to elation to insecurity to hope...and it goes on. Up to this morning, my H questioned my committment to recovery. It is a long hard process but I am grateful for what I have learned so far in learning to communicate more effectively. I think this plays a big part in the recovery process.

I cannot yet advise you on the effects of professional counselling as we have not yet taken up that option.

Ooh, that's dangerous territory. You may find out something that you really don't like, like the OM being better at SF than you, or more endowed. Are you prepared for the worst answers?



You need to decide if you really need to know those details, and if so, you need to make the environment safe for your WW to share them, if she will (and she should, if you believe you need them for your recovery). Set aside a particular day for talking about the A - no more "surprise questions". Give an idea of what you want to talk about. Give her an idea of WHY you want to talk about it. No more angry outburts, disrespectful judgments, etc. And finally, realise that even continuously bringing up the A is love-busting. That might be difficult to avoid now, so early after D-Day, but bear that in mind for the future.



Yup, went through the same thing here. For me, knowing the truth helped, but it was difficult to pursuade my FWW that the truth was more important than anything else at that point.



Yup, same here. In fact, I *know* I wasn't "good enough" in the sack, and I still sometimes feel that I'm not good enough - period, based on how my FWW treats me during the recovery process (she says that she doesn't do it on purpose). However, in general, it's probably natural, particularly as, for the duration of the A, your R with her was not the most important thing in her life - as she risked it to feed the A addiction. But that's the key there - to recognize it as an addiction. Addicts do stupid, thoughtless things when feeding their addiction - something they only realize after they've recovered.



Again, we're very alike here. My FWW makes the process even more unbearable at times by changing some answers from "no" to "don't know", etc., then back again. It's a tough situation, particularly as what you likely most want from her at the moment is openness and honesty, and she just wants to forget everything, get over it and move on. All I can suggest is ask yourself WHY you want to ask particular questions, and if you have a reasonable answer to that, talk about it with your WW. And realise that answer that she gives today might be different to the answer gives tomorrow to the same question. And yes, when that happens whatever trust you have left in her is adversely affected. You might want to think about sticking to mainly "closed" questions, where answers should be definitive (e.g. "yes", or "no") and objective. Any questions about feelings or other subjective matter are likely to generate answers that will change over time.



By making the decision to not talk because it would "serve no purpose", she is actually making a disrespectful judgment against you. If you thought the same about the question, you wouldn't be asking it, right? She's basically suggesting to you that your opinion on the matter is irrelevant. On the other hand, you REALLY need to make sure that you're not asking the question simply to shame and embarrass her. Think before you ask.



It was the same story in my case, though I only came to feel that way after we discussed the details, and out of the details emerged a picture of the OM continuously pushing her boundaries until she gave in. But at the end of the day, she did make the decision to participate in the A.



Personally, I'm not sure. I think that if I discovered that my FWW actually intiated things, I think that I'd be a lot less inclined to work on R of our M. OTOH, if you'd asked me a year ago if I'd stay married to someone who cheated on me, I'd have given a definite NO as my answer.



The advice in the Harley books does not make any differentiation on that matter. Have you got a copy of "Surviving an Affair"?

IMO, deciding to keep something from your spouse falls under the category of protective lying. For more reference, see SH's "Love Busters", p51.

Come to think of it, protective lying probably is one of the cornerstones of A's - e.g. if the WS was honest to the BS about their feelings and the situation just prior to the A, the A might never have had an opportunity to start and cause so much damage to the M. Protective lying is a habit that any WS who wants to recover their M probably should try to avoid as much as possible. This doesn't mean that you should be callous with the truth! It's possible to answer a question both truthfully AND with empathy.

Also, IMO not disclosing details when your H asks for them is a recipe for recovery disaster, because if any of those details actually come to his ears by another path (e.g. via the OP!), not only would you have lost the opportunity to practice the honesty that he's looking for from you during the recovery process, you might find yourself back at square one in the recovery, depending on how important knowing those particular details are to him. And the more he insists on knowing them, the more likely the answers are important to him.

Finally, the "emotional fallout" that your H is going through as a result of disclosure is because of your A, NOT because of your honesty. I think that it is very, VERY important to make that distinction. If you don't, you may find yourself being tempted to resort to protective lying again.

MIM, I was not providing any excuses for asterix's WS to not share the details with him. I did not say that it was all right for her to keep secrets from him, especially about the A. I was only trying to let him know why she was probably unwilling to share the details. I say probably now because I realized earlier after I posted that I was making a disrespectful judgement on her by speaking of how or what she is feeling. I apologize for that. I should have said that this was what I was feeling when I was first unwilling to share details and maybe she feels the same.

Astrex,

You have been given some great advice here. I would urge you read and reread Tangled's advice. For she is seeing this from your W's point of view. For example she commented that men want the details more than women seem to but don't handle them as well. It is a true observation. However the reason is that most men place more importance in the physical part of the marriage than women do. You want to see women go ballistic here, it is when their H's have an EA, and tell the OW that he loves her, and is emotionally attached to her at a deep level.

Horses and courses, Astrex.

I have one final idea to offer you. Don't ASK her any more questions. Instead write them down, review them to see if they really address what concerns you, and yes this is the time to ask yourself "do I really want to know this or am I just punishing myself and her?"

Writing them down and yes even offering why you want to know something, will help your W address both what you need to know and why you need to know it. She may not understand exactly WHY, but if you seem to know why it will be easier for her to be honest.

Tangled and others also touched on something else. IF you ask a question, be ready for the answer. IF you get angry and blow up, she will shut up to protect both herself and you. You MUST keep her defenses down, and to do that you cannot attack her for being what you say you want...HONEST.

Does this make sense? I hope so. So reread Tangled's thread for within it is a wealth of knowledge about how your W is viewing this. And then reread what others here have posted to you, and I think you will see better how to handle what Tangled is warning you about.

All of this information dovetails nicely, use it wisely.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Also, remember this whole things takes Time and Patience, for it is a process and there are few if any short cuts for either of you. So just repeat the mantra...T&P, T&P, T&P, I am getting tired of T&P, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Could someone please help me with all the acronyms that are used in these threads: BS, WS, FWW, OM, FWS, etc. I have a hard time decyphering their meaning from the sentence sometimes. Is there a place where I can look those up?

Yesterday I spoke to a friend of my wife who knew about the affair. My wife had been reluctant to tell me how she had told about this probably out of fear that I would call them too and make them uncomfortable. This friend was actually very glad that I called. My wife was very worried about this conversation, she probably felt like her friend was exposing a confidential conversation that they had. The friend confirmed a lot of the things that my wife had told me - I guess that in a way it was also the purpose of my call - I need to rebuild trust by knowing that she is telling me the truth. However the friend painted a slightly different picture. She told me that my wife and this guy were very close friends, they saw eye-to-eye in a number of things related to work and were really getting along very well. The friend thinks that the guy took advantage of that friendship and complicity to turn that complicity into some 'fooling around' (kissing) at first and this for a week or two. She thinks that my wife did not intend for that to happen but obviously went along with it. Then, when they were both away from their families, the affair turned sexual. Once again the friend thinks that my wife didn't want to take it this far but once again she went along with it. After that week they were still in touch over the phone but their conversations went back to pure business, there never was another romantic chat or anything along the lines of 'I miss you' or 'I love you'. That part is very strange to me in a way. How can one go from having sex with someone one week then never mention it again and go back to a pure business relationship. At one point it seems that they were talking about attending a conference together. My wife told me that she had ambivalent feelings about that conference. She had considered going to get 'closure' on the whole thing but also thought that it wouldn't be a good idea to be with him again. In my view I don't think that she trusted herself around him. When they were talking about this conference she apparently called him a number of time at work and she was getting angry that he was not returning her calls. She was so angry that she told her friend that she had considered calling his wife to expose him. Eventually he told her not to call his office again. Then the conference never happened. For me this painted a picture of my wife that looked like a 'groopie', a teenager that has a crush, pursues a guy and gets jealous when he doesn't call back. That is just not a side of her that I recognize, but actually I don't recognize her in anything that has happened with this affair.

As for the sexual details, maybe I don't know what I want. Part of me feels that I have a right to know everything about this and that it should be my decision to find out those things or not but that she doesn't have the right not to tell me. Part of me then wonders what I would do with that information. I also worry about the triggers that this will leave in me. This being said I still find myself probing there time and time again. Last night my wife said that maybe we could talk about that with the counselor, and that if the counselor thinks that it would help with the recovery then she would do it. Part of this, I feel, is definitely to protect me, I think that I would be hurt more if I knew the details. And maybe she wonders how our life together would do afterwards if I had all these triggers in my mind. This is all so difficult.

Betrayed Spouse, Wayward Spouse, (Formerly) Wayward Wife, Other Man, (Formerly) Wayward spouse. There is an 'acronym' thread, I'll see if I can find it and let you know.

Hang in there asterix. I can see you love her. Keep that in mind. Love her so that she FEELS loved. Make it completely clear that you care about her and want her to be happy.

That means you will have to work very hard to stay in control of yourself a lot of time, and don't splatter your pain all over the place. Stay in control, keep showing her you love her.

Counseling is a great idea. It will give you a safer environment to talk about things. Even there, keep yourself in control. You are deeply hurt, and it's okay to show your pain. But don't hurt your wife while doing it. Do not attack her, try to make her feel your love at all times - particularly when you are feeling those nearly uncontrollable emotions. You can do this.

God Bless you and your Marriage.

Here it is.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

Weneedhelp,

Thanks for the acronym thread, not easy when you're a newbie in this discussion group - and I never thought that I would be coming to a site like this...

I do indeed have the feeling that I 'splatter my pain'. I find myself repeating to her over and over how much I hurt, how I feel betrayed, how I can't believe that she would do something like that, how I don't recognize her in those acts, etc. She also sees that I am constantly haunted by those thoughts, that I have trouble falling asleep at night, and that I barely eat. All that she can answer is 'I am so sorry', 'I am worthless', 'I have cause you so much pain'. Obviously I need to express that sadness but I also realize that those conversations are not constructive, we spin our wheels - she feels terrible about herself and the constant reminder of what she did obviously doesn't help. Maybe the professional counseling can help us gain some ground there and be more constructive in our discussions. At this point I also know that she would love to have a break and to be able to be with me, in my arms, without the topic of the A constantly coming up. Obviously that works against being comfortable around me, and therefore further delays the rebuilding of closeness and complicity. As recently as this morning, she was still sending me this email:

"I want to be with you. I am so sorry about what happened. I have deeply hurt you and there is nothing I can do to change it. Telling you what happened was the hardest thing I ever did. I feel guilt, shame, anger at myself. I am physicaly sick about it. I am sorry.".

There is something else I have been wondering about, it's a little embarrassing to talk about this but I guess I will use the anonymity of this side to express it. The day my W admitted to the affair I wanted to be intimate with her. She agreed. I was really shocked that wanting to be intimate would come to mind the same day - afterwards I felt really bad and wondered what was wrong with me. She thinks that it was weird too but I guess that she complied for some reason. Part of me seems to be a purely physical side and seems able to block the emotional side for pure physical satisfaction. As soon as the physical side is satisfied I am back in the depth of the emotional side. But I really wonder if there is something else at play here. I would have imagined that being intimate with her would have been the furthest thing away from my mind at a time like this. Now I guess that we have been intimate a few times since the affair, the only difference is that I did not know about it then. I wonder if this is a form of 'demand' that I have, literally as if I was asking for a form of compensation. For me this is really weird and I don't understand it. I have been thinking about completely abstaining from sex until my head is a bit clearer about all this. Any comments about this?

Asterix,

You seem to be a very clear-headed person who does not react irrationally or let anger get the better of you (except in extreme circumstances that are understandable). This will help you.

From what I can remember, this desire for SF after D-day is natural. If both you and your W are willing, then by all means continue. Hey - take advantage of it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. The time WILL come when either one of you (most likely your W) will no longer be willing to participate. This is when your emotions will really start on that roller-coaster ride and the questions inside of you will hit you non-stop. Be prepared to exercise the most control over your reactions and demands.

Don't be embarrassed. Lots of people here talk about sexual fulfillment (acronym is SF). I agree, the desire for SF after DDay (Discovery Day) is natural. And I think it's probably good to share intimacy with your WW, to remember that you really are, deep inside, a loving committed married couple.

One that is having a rough time currently. I remember too well the pain, and the difficulty in keeping away from the topic of her affair. But you really need to do it. If you can't control yourself you risk driving her away. She could be guilted so severely that she can't bring herself to face you. She could react - like my WW did - by saying to herself "well he's not perfect either and just because he's being so hateful I will be even more hateful about his flaws".

Please take that last one to heart. It can happen. Like many here, I have been seriously flawed as a husband. After her A, my WW really lived my flaws, and at the early stages one of our crisis points was in effect a test of whether I was truly committed to fixing my own flaws. Had I failed to show my commitment and my own remorse at that point, we would likely be in divorce proceedings now.

Fair or not, fairness doesn't matter. Just my opinion, but if you want a good outcome you need to do all you can to draw yourself closer to her and draw her closer to you - despite your pain. Very hard, but you can do it.

Repeating my mantra: I want to love her so that she truly FEELS loved. So that she goes to bed every night secure in the knowledge that she is the most important thing in the world to me. If you can do that you will IMHO greatly improve your marriage's chances, and yourself to boot. Besides, what's the alternative? For her to go to bed every night with the (inaccurate) feeling that I might truly detest her and her actions, and that it's getting worse rather than better, and that she is getting signals I will never get through it? I don't think that's going to get us where we want to be.

I suggest you consider fully 100% committing yourself to building a new better marriage, and keeping your pain from hurting her. Best Wishes.

Astrix,

Just keep in mind if and when you two decide to discuss the details of the sex (SF) with the OM.

As my FWW explained it. It was an EA which the natural course of action over time was to have SF, turning it into a full EA/PA (Emotional/Physical Affair).

She told me because of the emotional attachment she did enjoy it, but she also told me as for his abilities, and other physical aspects "I had nothing to worry about".

I don't think I would have believed her for a minute if I had not heard her telling a friend how good things were between us in bed. She was unaware I heard this conversation.

I guess what I am getting at is this... If she your W were to tell you the SF with OM wasn't enjoyable or as good as with you... Are you going to believe her? Or just think she is protecting your feelings?

If you decide to get detailed info on the actual SF. When you hear something that gets your heart rate really going, expect that will cause triggers later, and stop the conversation. Again take it sloooow.

I also felt that if I knew too much, it would have made healing that much more difficult. I asked questions like: Was it protected, how many times. etc.. While getting those answers, I knew there was nothing else I wanted to hear. Not only for my sake, but his also.

Hi. I agree with Justkeeptrying. I asked about every detail about what he did with her and he was trying to be open and honest and told me EVERYTHING. Now I know so many details that I have this movie that plays over and over in my head every night and I can see everything as clearly as if I were there. Now, every time I hear something like "shower" I think of him taking a shower with her...etc. My advice is to ask general questions that you need to know (i.e. if it wasn't protected she should get tested...etc.). But as far as the details, it is really better to let it go. Now I feel like everything he did with her is no longer special between us, and since that was apparently pretty much everything, I feel like there is so little left that's just ours. Be very careful in learning too much. It isn't worth it. In fact the first few times we were intimate after, I cried sometimes during and sometimes after and sometimes both. Because I couldn't keep myself from imagining that he looked at her the same way he looked at me and that she felt what I felt and that everything was the same except with a different person and that hurt so much that I wasn't even able to enjoy being with him...all because of the stupid details.

Ok..rant over lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sorry if it was too long!

I first learned about the affair less than 2 weeks ago, the emotions in me are still very raw and not completely sorted out. I have had and continue to have a ton of questions for her. However, I am starting to feel that the 'digging' for information is slowing down, I am starting to hit a couple of big rocks like the sexual details for instance, and consequently I am starting to perseverate about trivia. I am also going into the not-so-factual territory of 'how did you feel at the time?', 'what were you thinking at the time?', etc. - which is very difficult if not impossible for her to answer as she will tell me that she doesn't have a 'log of her thoughts and emotions'. It's also an area where the answers vary from time to time and that upsets me. This being said I would love to be in a position right now where I can stop to ask questions - where I have enough to move on. It would be a lot easier on us and on her more specifically. But isn't it too early to ask that of myself? Less than 2 weeks since the affair and I don't ask questions anymore? Would I be too demanding with myself here or is this indeed something I should do?

As for the sexual details it seems that there is pretty much a consensus that I shouldn't dig there as a) I may not like what I find, and b) I would be scared for life. My (F)WW would be happy to hear that because that's a topic she really doesn't feel comfortable talking about. Actually I think that if I keep pressuring her on that I will alienate her completely which will only further delay the recovery. As a middle groud she offered that we should ask the counselor about that, i.e. whether or not it would help with the recovery for her to share those details with me. She said that if that 'specialist' feels that it helps, she would try.


This comment really hits home with me. I do indeed feel violated by what happened, as if I had been robbed of my wife. The couple of time we have been intimate since I learned of the A, and as she was touching me, I couldn't help myself but wonder if she was thinking about him. When we watch TV and we see two people kissing on TV, I wonder if she thinks about him, etc. This is really haunting me. Will that ever wear off?

Yes it will. For me it's a few months in the past, and I can tell it's wearing off. It will for you too.

For us the big move in that direction started when my WW eventually came around to caring about my feelings, and wanting a better relationship with me. That helped me to forget and put away the bad thoughts.

But before she could do that, I needed to first prove to her that I care deeply about her. And that I can provide for her a lifetime of love. And that decades from now she will look back and know that she was loved.

I think that I first had to help her to see that. Once I started to act in such a way that she could start to see a glimmer, things started to improve. She reciprocated, and the healing cycle was underway.

That's the challenge. It's difficult and counterintuitive. I believe that if you respond naturally by dwelling and nursing your grudges it will hinder the start of the healing cycle. OTOH although it may feel unnatural for you as a BH to respond with love and commitment that's the right response. We've all been told that in 1000 great books and movies. But when the time comes it's not easy to take the right path. Would you please try to think about this?

It will wear off. I think the best way to get that underway is for you to prove beyond a reasonable doubt your love for her.

Try not to dwell on what's happened. Instead try to focus first on how you can prove your love for her. IMHO.

Hey asterix. I was just reading through your posts. It really sounds like we are about in the same boat. Sometimes I just want to run away from the whole thing. But it wouldn't help. I torture myself with thoughts of her and him. Can we ever have a sex life again? Really? Is it possible? What have others experienced? If you ever want someone to vent with we could vent together. Sounds like we have the same outlook, plan, ect.. But wow, there are times that 'the plan' just seems impossible. I guess that I come here to vent, to ask questions so I can wake up the next morning and attempt to follow through with what I need to do to make my marriage work. I just try to be strong everyday with my wife. Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to hard, I look desperate, I probably even feel desperate. Like you said in one of your posts, you feel like you are trying harder than her. I know that's how I feel. Most of the time I don't even get any feedback. No hug, no kiss, no understanding words, nothing. But I'm trying, and going to keep trying. I have two kids that I would go to the end of the Earth for. I love my wife. I'm not sure she loves me. If it doesn't work out I want to be able to look myself in the mirror and say I tried everything I could to make it work.

Last night was very difficult - I was really upset about the whole thing and did a lot of crying. She seems to tell me all the right things like 'I want you', 'I want to work things out', 'I never thought about leaving you', 'I love you', 'I am so sorry for what happened', etc. - but part of me doesn't believe her. Part of me thinks that she is with me because I was the 'reasonable' choice, maybe even the 'easy' choice. It's hard for me to accept that - obviously the alternative would be even more terrible.

Apparently the last day my WW was with the OM she told him that she was going home to work things out with me. In her mind that was the end of the A. But I know that the EA lasted longer than that, at least for her. She keeps telling me that she missed the friendship and the companionship that he provided, that she didn't know what the affair meant. Some of the friends she talked to during that time told me that she was confused about her feelings. It is hard for me to accept that she was with me and thinking about her feelings for someone else. She went through a deep depression at that time and was really withdrawn. She told me that she also thought she had lost me and that I wouldn't want to be with her once I found out. The whole thing mixed with deep guilt and shame.

She is supposed to go on a trip with the kids and her mom next week - something that was planned before she told me about the A. I am really afraid of being by myself during that week, alone at night with my thoughts, fears, and anxieties. I also have a lot of separation anxiety at this time, I can't wait to come home and be with her. I just don't think that I can let her get away for that long.

Astrix,

If your W is telling you she loves you, believe her. The best you get from most FWS (formerly wayward spouses) in the early weeks to months is the "I love you, but not in love with you". It sounds like made a mistake, and luckily realized it early. Let her help you heal.

The trip: This is probably a good thing she is going. Gives her a break from the pain you are both feeling. It sounds like you are aware of how badly she feels about her mistake. Be supportive regarding the trip, but tell her your concerns. Keep in mind she is with her mom and your kids. Continue to tell yourself that, and work on you. In the end I believe this will help you deal with the separation anxieties you are feeling, "be thankful she is not going somewhere alone". Your mind would really be racing if that were the case.

Do the feeling wear off: The feeling wear down or dull, become less frequent, but it will be in the back of your mind. Nothing nearly as intrusive as your dealing with now.

Sex: This was a rock and a hard place for me early on. I wanted that feeling of connection, and enjoyed it, but also had the triggers associated with the act. All I can tell you for sure is. I sleep much better the nights that we were intimate.

If your anxieties are that severe, maybe you should see a doctor about AD (anti-depression) meds?

Your doing OK, and will continue to make progress, it's slow but try to measure or landmark the things that do improve. Don't try to fix everything today, continue to tell yourself this is a marathon, not a sprint. Pace
yourself for it.

Hang in there!

Yes she tells me that she loves me and wants to be with me. She realized that she never loved the OM and he never loved her. This being said the thoughts and emotions associated with the A did not end when they separated after the trip and for a period of time she was herself in a recovery period. I feel very jealous that she missed his friendship and companionship but I guess that with time I will be able to get over that.


Here I don't know if I made the right decision or not but I have decided to go with her and the kids. She wanted me to go, she felt that it would be good for us and good for me. She was really excited when I told her that I accepted her invitation. I am going a bit reluctantly but I guess my heart is not into anything right now. Some time away from work, being a bit more distracted than usual, may do me some good. Ideally I would like to be able to shut up about the A during the trip. She really needs a break, she is exhausted by my process of interrogation and it's probably doing us more harm than good right now - plus as I said before I find myself perseverating about trivia and we are spinning our wheels anyway - I hope that the counselor (we have supposed to have our first session in mid-March) will be able to make us do some progress. This being said it will be a true exploit for me if I can stop asking questions for the duration of the trip, but I want to try.


Well I am prone to anxieties anyway, a few years ago I was actually treated for panic attacks, took Zoloft for a while and underwent Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) with a skrink. Since then and thanks to these treatments I have been able to control the anxiety. Obviously this A is playing some nasty tricks on me. Aside from the sadness and all the other feelings (anger, etc) - I sometimes feel wobbly on my legs, I shiver, etc. Symptoms that are probably all related to anxiety.


Yes I need to remember that. I want to sprint because the pain is so intense that I want it to be over as soon as possible. However I also understand that this is also a long process and I am probably just in the early stages of it. My luck at this time is that my wife seems to be completely committed to working things out with me and to rebuild our mariage. I hope that we will succeed.

I thinks it's a great sign that your W asked to to go along. She must obviously want to you go, or she would have found or attempted to find reason to get away without you.

Now in order for it to be positive, you do need to give her a break from the pain she is dealing with. Yes it will be tough, but do it, and concentrate on nothing but a relaxing break from all of this. If you can do this, it will be a major score for both of you. Otherwise it maybe best to stay back.

A note from my own exprience. If you drink socially, avoid alcohol. When my W and I went out alone or with friends shortly after D-day, a few drinks, and I was locked back into dealing with my own pain, making the evening alot less enjoyable than is should have been.

Yes well my wife has a head start on me for those things. The PA has been over for 7-8 months and the last phone contact with the OM goes back to almost 5 months. So she has had a lot of time to think about what she wants out of our relationship. As for me I only learned about the A less than 2 weeks ago, my emotions and feelings are still very raw. She is actually a bit worried about that. I tell her that I want to work things out and save our marriage but part of her thinks that she will only really know once the dust settles for me. She is still not sure that I will want her around once all my emotions are sorted out.

I will try my best to do that. I can't guarantee that I will be Mr Happy all the time but I will try to avoid the topic of the A or ask questions. She knows that it will be difficult for me and she already told me that she wouldn't be angry at me if I brought it up. She realizes that I am still very early in the process. This being saif I would like this to be a nice vacation for her and the kids and I will do my best. She is definitely very excited that I am going - that feels good. I will take your advice and stay away from liquor.

This being said, Justkeeptrying, sometimes I have the feeling that you are recommending a lot more effort from the BS than from the WW - making her feel loved at all times, giving her a break, etc. - I am not saying that this is not the way to go but shouldn't the BS be the one that is pampered, loved, cherished, and protected?

Asterix,

You asked
Ideally the answer is yes, but realistically the BS often does a LOT more work early on in this. Later as the marriage recovers and the WS sees it and sees it better than ever the remorse sets in. Your W sounds as if she is trying to do the things you want and need, but right now you are too hurt to see that.

The advice you have been given is excellent follow it. You may not recall but there is a saying that I know we are not talking about revenge here, but trust what you have heard as you treat her well, as you do your best to recover without throwing the A in her face all of the time or during an arguement, she will see how foolish her choices were.

I am not saying you cannot discuss the A, and later what each of you have learned from her A, but don't throw it in her face, and go at this in the spirit of kindness, although you are deeply deeply hurt. There will very likely come a time that you will have to let her do things for her so that she can attone for what she has done, but you are way too early for this.

Asterix, she really probably does not fully understand the depth of what she has done to the marriage yet, but she will. She knows you are hurt, but she does NOT know what was lost and cannot be recovered. Yes, the marriage can become something far better than it ever was, but some things are lost.

So hang in there, enjoy the vacation, and give this time.

God Bless,

JL

This is all so difficult - last night I experienced three completely different moods. I started very depressed and withdrawn, literally crying in bed, worrying that I could never be a good father to my kids again because I was so hurt and so consumed by my pain. Then an hour or so later I started recovering again, was a bit more chatty, I was even smiling - then during the night, alone with my thoughts and anxieties I started getting angry and I wanted to bother my W with questions and sarcastic comments. At one point she even left the room because I wouldn't let her sleep, she eventually came back. This morning I woke up early still haunted by thoughts of them together. My wife is being very patient with me, hugging me, apologizing - I am sure it's not easy for her either. She is definitely very remorseful and I think she understands the extent of what she has done to our mariage. Actually part of her depression in the months that followed the A were due to the fact that she felt she had lost me and for ever ruined what we had together. At this point I don't know what our mariage will be like - I know that through this I have seen another facet of her personality - I just never thought she could do what she did and then hide as many clues as she could. In a way I don't recognize the woman that I married.
Obviously a big change for me will be the trust that I have in her. I really used to trust her, never blindly trusted her maybe, but definitely always gave her the benefit of the doubt. I don't know if I will ever be able to get to that stage again. What other changes have you all seen in your relationships with a FWW? Thanks again for all your support and kind words. This discussion group has been wonderful in helping me express my feelings and getting some perspective on this whole thing.

Trust is hard. I have not yet gotten to where I fully trust her, but I am making progress. Still I have pangs from time to time. I think trust will start returning to your marriage pretty soon.

Have you read much here from other posters? If so you know that your situation could be much much worse. The A could be continuing, or perhaps your W could have moved out, or could have decided she doesn't love you, or... you get the idea. You've been hurt, but you also have a good place to start building a new better M. Please don't let your emotions cause you to make bad decisions or hurt her.

Best wishes and God Bless your marriage.

I am only trying to help you to avoid some of the pitfalls that slowed down my recovery.

You are in pain, thats a given, and yes I know what it feels like. From the sound of it your W is sensitive to that, and making the effort to assist you any way possible short of telling you things she expects will hurt you further.

One of the major mistakes I made and regret was to put up a wall between my W and I early on, to protect myself from any more damage, also stopping/distancing myself from making repairs.


Your W is ready for this to me nothing but a bad memory that no longer affects your daily lifes, and when that becomes a reality you will both be in a much better place.

Unfortunately it will be awhile before you get there. You are still grieving the death of your M, the way you knew it.

Again, my only goal here is to help you survive this emotional train wreck.

Yes you are right about that - I do realize that it could have been or could still be worse than it is. Sometimes I force myself to think about that to make my pain more bearable. It feels like you have just been in an accident, lost an arm and a leg - and have to tell yourself that at least you survived the crash. I guess that it all comes down to counting your blessings. Just difficult to sustain that level of positive thinking at a time like this when you feel that your whole world has come crashing down. But with time who knows.
Yes and I know that part of me feels that I need to be compensated for that. Compensated by her answering all the questions that I have, loving me despite my current mood swings, and re-romanticizing our mariage. I feel that I should be the one pursued, the one that needs to be reeled in, the ones that needs to be won back. But I also know that it's not that easy and putting those demands on her will further delay our recovery.
I really appreciate your insights. I assume that my current emotions and state of mind are not my best advisors right now. I can benefit from your perspective as to what worked and what didn't. Of course I imagine that each situation is different but I am sure that certain lessons learned still apply.

On another note, I had some down time yesterday at the office and I spend an hour or so trying to develop a cause & effect diagram of this whole A, attempting to summarize all the things that I have heard over the last two weeks. It must be my engineering background kicking in, and I may be stupid to think that matters like these can be rationalized and understood at that level. This being said it was an interesting exercise and one that allowed me to put some order in my thoughts. Here is an example of what I came up with in explaining how the physical affair took place:
(1) My W and I lacked emotional closeness for a while before the A - that led to (2) a feeling of loneliness on her part (she had talked to me in the past about that but we weren't able to correct it).
(3) My wife and the OM spent a lot of time together at work, they were co-workers. (4) They also shared many intense work experiences together. (3) + (4) led to (5) A lot of complicity between her and the OM, they were very good friends. I think that (1) also contributed to (5), as she was probably compensating for her lack of complicity with me.
(6) She was relatively attracted to him - let's just say attracted enough to make a PA possible. (5) + (6) led to(7) a solid connection or compatibility between them.
(8) They both found themselves away from home for a week - his family had moved out, she was staying in a hotel - that's what I call the 'right place'
(9) It was also the 'right time' - they were both facing an imminent move to a new state, it was the end of their time working together - it was an emotional time for her - and I think that the OM used it as 'the' opportunity to try something. (8) + (9) created (10) the 'opportunity'.
(11) The OM was also more aggressive, it basically made the first move - just enough for my wife to go along with it. I am not saying that she was forced but let's just say that I think that she would not have initiated it.
So in conclusion I believe that (2) her feeling of loneliness combined with (7) the solid connection/compatibility between them, (10) being at the right time and right place, and (11) him making the first move, all led to the PA.
Now obviously when I look at something like that, provided that it is even close to reality (I want to have her take a look at it eventually), I try to think about the things that I could change in the future. a) obviously I can work on the emotional closeness between the two of us. Working on our mariage, trying to fulfill each other's emotional needs while avoid love busters can go a long way there. b) I think that the strong connection (complicity + enough physical attraction) should be a red flag for her, a warning that maybe she is getting too close to someone and that she shouldn't trust herself with that. c) obviously she would need to avoid creating the opportunities like finding herself going on a business trip by herself, being in a private setting with an OM, etc. once again she shouldn't trust herself with those situations. d) I will need to be less trusting and keep an eye on those things as they develop or as they occur. Does this make any sense at all? Is that at all close to what a counselor would try to do with us in trying to identify what led to the PA?

That makes great sense to me. Not sure what a counselor would say, but that's also a pretty good description of how my W's affair came to pass. (8) particularly; my W and OM knew each other from way back, but then re-met at a convention in another city.

I'd left the door open by not meeting my W's emotional needs. If I had met her needs, I doubt she would have accepted OM's invitation. Maybe, but I doubt it. Even if she had accepted, she likely would not have continued the A when she returned home.

So, top priority for me is to do my very best at fulfilling her needs and making her feel loved. And I think that's a good prescription for the majority of men in a committed relationship.

Well I am glad to hear that I am completely crazy then. While some may frown upon trying to map emotions and events in the form of cause-effect diagrams I still think that it helped me order my thinking and see how all the different facets of the PA worked together. It helped me identify the potential root causes, or at least the 'enablers', and I can try to focus on those.

Meeting the emotional needs (EN) and avoiding the love busters (LB) is obviously an important part but is it really enough? Where does one find the strength and the will to reject temptation? Is it fear of consequences? If one knew that their spouse was going to find out about the affair, would they go through with it? While both the BH and the WW can contribute to a good environment (max EN, min LB) - how can a FWW learn to recognize the signals and prevent herself from ever doing it again? Or is this something that's impossible to ask of someone?

On my mood scale, today I would say that I am 'angry' - I definitely feel sarcastic and ready to throw the A in my wife's face at the first opportunity. Probably a good thing that we are not together today. On the other hand she is doing her best to be nice - I just had her on the phone and she sounded really sweet. I will see if my mood changes by the time I am going home.

On another topic, I wrote a letter for the wife of the OM today. I knew her as well. I don't know if it's a good idea for me to send it. Any thoughts on that topic? Part of me obviously wants revenge, why would he have an easy life while mine is turned upside down? But part of me also wants her to know who she is dealing with. She has three kids and she should be able to make an informed decision about her marriage. Since he knows that I know, I wonder if he will try to intercept the letter when it arrives, by just looking at the origin (we are the only people they know in this area). I don't have her email address or cell phone number so I really don't have another way of getting in touch with her. Any lessons learned on this point?

Asterix,

The logic chart is a good thing and I would guess that you are pretty close to right. I say this because what you have listed is pretty much a common pattern for affairs. Interestingly, it is the pattern for someone that does in fact want to remain married and actually loves their spouse, although they forget that at the time. Hence the optimism for your marriage recovery.

Let me offer what I take from it based on reading here for over 7 years.

1. You are right the lack of emotional closeness was and is always a factor (ie meeting needs and probably communications was the biggie).

2. You are wrong that you could of prevented it, because it was her choice.

3. What she needs to do is decide what HER boundaries are and explain them to you.

4. She needs to explain HER plan for protecting HER boundaries and thus the marriage.

5. You do have a role in helping her protect her boundaries as she does in you protecting yours.

You also said and asked
Show it to her NOW. You are so new in this situation that you have not realized yet, that you may not need to question her about details so much other than to confirm specific pieces of the puzzle, as you need to understand HER thinking at the time. If you offer this to her, and then ask her how she would have described the "logic" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> tree she used, you AND she will learn valuable information.


My friend if you do this, alot of things will fall into place. You BOTH will be much happier. You see you need that emotional connection as much as she does, you have not been aware of it as much until NOW.



This is about her boundaries. What you are about to find out is that one of your emotional needs is COMMUNICATIONS with her. You need her telling you how she feels in order for YOU to be happy. AND she needs to hear how you feel for her to be happy. Think about this.



This is an interesting one. It is about boundaries and protecting them. She should be able to travel and be around other men, and I encourage you to allow this as you heal. What she needs to have is a plan of action laid out before she travels. For example, I won't go dancing with them. Or if I go drinking with them, it is a group. I will be in bed by??? I won't do this while with men? Do you see my point?

I have been married 30 years, and used to travel extensively, I avoided temptation (protected my boundaries) by NEVER going where there was dancing. Never joining a woman for a drink unless we were in a group. I did this because I was a batchelor until I was over 30, and understood how the game was played. I avoided the game. Her plan should include how to avoid the game, while still doing the business she needs to do, even if that includes a social component. Does this make sense? Talk with her about this.



What you really need to do is become a team, and the issue of trust will take care of itself. Trust is after all simply the ability to predict future actions based on past behavior with the more recent behavior being weighted the most heavily. Note, that she ended the affair, and she has behaved in a trustworthy fashion for a lot longer than she behaved in a non-trustworthy fashion. So, Asterix, there is a lot of hope for all of this.

The bigger issue will not be so much your trust of her, but anxiety about what might happen. She can help a lot with this by developing a plan with you that addresses the anxiety. As you say, it is your internal dialogue that is driving you crazy right now, and it will for some time to come.


I think you are heading in the correct direction. The only "illogical" aspect of this is healing the wounds you have emotionally. To some degree one cannot "logic" these things away, any more than you can "logic" away an incision. You need time to heal and that takes communications with your W, her love and assistance, followed by time and patience.

I would recommend on thing. When you go on vacation, really really enjoy your children. Relax, and let the healing occur, and remember why you married this woman, and why you love her now.

She messed up big time, but if she loves you and loves you for the next 50 years or so while being a good mother to your children, and a good wife and lover to you, her failure to protect her boundaries will become less and less significant, and you will die a very happy man.

You are in the middle of something very painful, but you can heal and be even stronger than ever, sort of like a broken bone. The site of the break is often stronger, than the original bone, once it is properly healed.

Must go, hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

I have just discussed that with her over the phone - she tells me that she knows her boundaries but that obviously she crossed them and she is very shocked that she did that. When I ask her what will be different next time she tells me that she has learned an important lesson, she has seen how crossing those boundaries have affected her (shame, guilt, feeling of worthlessness), affecting me, and taken a huge risk on our family and relationship. She tells me that it is those lessons that will prevent her from ever crossing those boundaries again.
I have shared the overall logic over the phone with her and I think that she pretty much agrees with it. Once again her boundaries were crossed and she feels very stupid for putting herself in those situations. I have also shared my logic tree for what led to her subsequent depression, there she disagreed that she missed the lover and had a broken heart. She missed the friendship and having someone to talk to but she didn't miss the physical aspect of their relationship at all. In addition she felt shame and guilt and was shocked to have done something like this. She wondered what having an affair meant about her.
I like this analogy a lot. Right now I feel the intense pain of the broken bone and it's going to take a while to heal. Just like with a broken arm I will be very cautious for a long time about what I do with it, I will think for a while that it could never be stronger than it was before. But if it's healed properly, well aligned, and well care for, it will indeed grow stronger and hopefully I will be able to live with little or no side effects.

Thank you so much for your help. I feel ok right now. I hope that I can keep this feeling for more than 5 minutes... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Asterix,

Ah the infamous roller coaster, you will be on it for months to come, but have faith in yourself and yes your W. This all can work out and does as long as two people come together with open hearts and a kind spirit.

Your W is missing something very important. She stated she crossed her boundary. It was not a boundary then was it? That is the point. It is not sufficient to have a boundary: "I will NOT do..." What is required is to have a plan to protect that boundary under all conditions. Do you see what I am talking about? If one does not have a plan, the one can be taken unawares and the boundary just becomes a line in the sand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This stuff does NOT occur overnight, it will takes months for you to heal and your W to fully grasp the and implement her plans to protect HER boundaries. Notice the emphasis on HER boundaries? They are not yours. They may reflect your desires, but they must be HER boundaries that she enthusiastically enforces and protects. You can discuss her plan with her, you could even make suggestions (but you probably know how women respond to such suggestions <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), but ultimately she must construct the plan and put it in place.

Now that you have been through this you will also realize the wisdom of establishing your own boundaries. Often people think boundaries are defensive. One of yours might become "I will never let my W think she is not loved or cared for." Easy to say ( or at least I think it will be as you heal), but it means nothing without a plan...one that you execute and follow. Do you see what I mean?

Hope so. I am off for travel. Good luck to you and your W.

God Bless,

JL

Something new today and quite emotional - I decided to call the W of the OM and tell her everything. I knew her well and I felt that she also had a right to know. I hesitated a couple of weeks before doing this but I felt that it was the right thing to do - ignorance may be bliss but living an illusion isn't.

I was shaking on the phone and my voice was trembling. She listened to me very calmy even though she hadn't suspected anything. She really kept it together on the phone. I shared the details that I had (timeframes, locations, etc.). They can now put the issues on the table and start their own 'reconstruction'.

I gave her my cell phone number so that she can call me if she needs more information. Not that I have much more to tell her but it may help to have someone to talk to, and why not the other betrayed spouse. It gives us something in common now.

Last night I asked my W how she felt about me contacting the other BS. She told me that she didn't have an opinion one way or the other. At first I wanted to send her a letter but I suspected that the OM would intercept it and his W would never know. My W even said that if I wanted to communicate with the other BS, a letter wouldn't be the best way. I took it as a sign that my W was not opposed to me contacting the other BS. I don't know why, out of honesty and guilt maybe or out of revenge against the OM - not sure.

I feel a bit more at peace inside now, it probably won't last long but I feel like I did the right thing.

You did the right thing. If things stay on track elsewhere you should enjoy the peace for quite awhile. Congratulations and compliments on your good judgement.

You've probably seen this all over MB threads, but I'll repeat it here. If not, it looks a bit odd until you've absorbed it:

To say you love your wife does not mean just romantic receiving kind of love. More fundamentally it means a giving love. An active verb, not a passive one.

To love her is to give your strongest promise to share your compassion and care for her no matter what. To stand at the altar and promise to love her is to say you commit to caring for her, watching over her, and giving your love to her. No conditions.

Love your wife, in that giving sense of the word.

I have the feeling that I've given more thought to my marriage and to my relationship with my wife over the last two weeks since I learned about the affair than over my last 12 years of married life. Funny how those things work.

I have also done a lot more reading on relationships, emotional needs, and love busters. In a way I wish I had known about those things before, and really absorbed them. Now it's a bit reactive maybe but we still have the rest of our lives to get better at it.

Obviously none of this is an excuse for the A and my W realizes that - she accepts full responsibility for what she did and hasn't tried to blame it on something on someone else. She has a lot of work to do herself about setting and managing her boundaries, to ensure that an A never happens again. To tell you the truth it seems that her biggest shock in all this is realizing that she could have an A - I don't think that she ever realized she actually could go through with something like that, that she had it in her. Hence the shame, guilt, and feeling of worthlessness that she has carried since it happened.

My biggest challenge right now is to control my emotions and stabilize my moods. I stil swing from anger and frustration to gentle and loving to depressed and sad. It often doesn't require much of a stimulus to change my mood, either in a positive or negative way. A little smile, a little affection, a little hope for SF and I swing to the gentle/loving 'setting'; a negative comment, feeling ignored, or thinking about them having sex and I swing to 'angry/frustrated'; thoughts about my own pain, desperation, and anxieties about the future and I am at 'depressed/sad'. One evening I think that I experienced all three settings in a matter of a couple of hours. It's obviously difficult for her to be around me when I change this often, she is also worried that something she will say or do will trigger a negative change and it makes her nervous. I am sure that she still has in the back of her head the angry outburst of last week. I really have to get this under control. I was thinking that one way to handle it would be to distance myself from her (i.e. go in a different room or go out) when I am at 'angry/frustrated' as I think that it is the most damaging setting, the one that make me withdraw 'love units' by the shovel. When I am at 'depressed/sad' I actually need some comfort and some reassurance and she has been very good and very patient about that - so I may stick around for that one. Then obviously I should make the most out of 'happy/gentle' which I am hoping, over time, will remain my default setting, allowing me to make many 'deposits' in my love bank account. I should also do a better job at respecting her boundaries for questions on certain topics. The whole 'sexual acts' part of the A remains an untouchable for her. Yet I find myself probing, poking, and touching that subject from time to time. That bothers her as she feels that I am not respecting her limits at this time.

The learning continues...hopefully the healing will start soon.

Dear friends - this is going to be my last post for a few days as I am going on vacation with the whole family, starting tomorrow. I hope that we will come back refreshed, rested, and more hopeful than ever.

It feels a bit weird to go away in those circumstances. Part of me feels that I am letting my wife get away with murder and that the punishment for her affair should be more severe. Yet at the same time I am drawn to working things out and to moving forward, which is pretty much my only option if we want to stay together.

I want to thank you for your support over the last couple of weeks - these threads have not only helped me verbalize my feelings and emotions at this very difficult time of my life but you have also provided valuable insights and a much needed perspective on this whole thing. I will be back online during the week of March 6. Please pray for me.

I will be praying for you. And that you have a nice vacation together, and a healing time. And that you are able to keep your pain from doing further damage beyond what your W has caused, and that you spend a long happy lifetime together. God bless.

I can't believe your wife put you at risk for STDs and you're questioning whether or not you should be with her.

Well I am back online now and back from vacation. It was nice to spend some quality time with my W and the kids but my behavior was unfortunately not ‘optimal’. I tried to do my best at avoiding the topic of the A but unfortunately at times my pain would just be too much to bear and I had to discuss it with her. I had to express my pain and my feelings and I fell a couple of times in the trap of asking her what now seems like trivial questions about the events. She was overall very patient with me and really tried her best to give me a good time. She was also very affectionate with me. She told me that she understood that I had to talk about those things and that she was the one responsible for putting herself in that position. Of course she hates to talk about the A and never brings it up on her own. At best she will try to give me an honest answer to the questions that I ask, or at times she will be so fed up with my line of questioning that she will shut me off for a while. But it always seems to be a painful process for her.

Over the vacation she read the book ‘Surviving an Affair’ and thought that it was good. We also both filled out the ‘emotional needs’ questionnaire and exchanged our answers. Not any real surprises there but it was good to talk about these things and articulate our thoughts.

Yesterday was not a good day either, I really exposed my pain and my feelings, listing all that she had risked and ruined – and she ended up crying on the bed. She was distant for the rest of the day. This morning I was haunted again by thoughts of them together and I was feeling really sick to my stomach, literally noxious. She hugged me and tried to comfort me. We spoke on the phone on our way to work and she was telling me how angry she was at herself for having this A, that she would beat herself up if she could. She also told me that it was very painful for her to see me go through this process, that she was very worried about me and that she wished she knew what to do to help me. She tells me that she knows that she has made a huge mistake and that she will have to live with that for the rest of her life. She completely believes that this was a one-time thing and that it will never happen again. She says that this A caused her the most painful experience of her life and that she never wants to go through that again. As for me I live in the fear that for some reason, at some point in the future, it will happen again, and that she will either leave me or force me to leave her. All of that still surrounded by a lack of trust in her and the memory of this unbelievable betrayal.

Rick7355 - this has to be the least helpful comment so far.

Soon after I spoke to the OM's wife and told her everything, he sent an email to my W basically saying that he was going to try to rebuild what she 'willingly and deliberately' destroyed. He is obviously very angry that my W told me the truth and that eventually I told his W the truth. The 'code of silence' he was probably expecting throughout this A has been broken and he now has to face the consequences of what he participated in.

My W told me right away that she had received the email from the OM - as she had promised that she would if he ever tried to get in touch with her again. She deleted it and didn't respond to it. She is sticking to the NC agreement that we have and she is being honest with me.

This morning I left a message for the OM's W. I really had two objectives in contacting her again: 1) she is someone that I knew well and I want to see how she has been doing since I dropped these news in her lap (it is my concern for how this information was going to affect her and her family that made me hesitate for 2 weeks about telling her about the A), 2) I wonder if the OM confirmed or denied the details that I shared with her. I guess I am also checking my W's story line like this. The OM's W hasn't called me back yet and I don't know if she will. I don't even know if it's a good idea for me to contact her. Checking my W's story line against what the OM will admit is also probably asking for trouble as I am sure that he will try to present this in a way that benefits him, and the he said/she said that could follow would probably be far from being productive and may even derail the healing process. Still I felt compelled to contact her.

Today I also sent to my W a copy of the cause-effect diagram that I spoke about last week. I had modified it this morning based on some of the information and clarifications that she provided this past week. It may sound 'nerdy' to attempt something like this but once again it really helps me structure my thinking and check my assumptions and understanding of the events. I feel that once I am able to firm up my understanding of some of the elements I don't have to perseverate about them and can start moving on, slowly but surely. It's just how my brain works...

I also sent to my W a copy of the short 'guide for WW' that I found on this site. I found some very valuable elements in there, specifically in understanding the point of view of the BS, but also to help the FWW move on. I am hoping that she will find the time to read these materials and hopefully they will be of value to her.

In a bit less than 2 weeks we have our first session with the counselor. I don't really know what to expect from this session or from counseling altogether. I don't even know if he is a good MC or not. I guess that experience will tell. My W and I have also talked about trying to get some counseling from the church, I have actually asked her to look into that and arrange something. I think that adding a spiritual element to our recovery will do us some good, specifically in helping me forgive her, and in helping her forgive herself - both will be needed as we try to move on.

Over the vacation I had her fill out the emotional need questionnaire. The top two emotional needs she came up with were 'affection' and 'family commitment'. She recognized that while 'family commitment' was a need for her she also told me that I was doing a very good job there. I guess that it is really the 'affection' area that will be the challenge. I kind of already knew that before as I believe that this is that lack of affection that caused a big part of the emotional disconnect that we had in the month and possibly year(s) that led to the A. It is going to be extra difficult for me to satisfy that need in the short term given the pain and anger that I am going through right now - but at least I know what I need to focus on and I will make an effort.

At this point I still wish that I could do a better job at managing my emotions and protecting her from my anger, anxieties, and frustrations. I can see how that's affecting the healing process and the recovery in general. I just hope that it will get better with time. As I have said before I also feel that I need her more than ever now. The quantity of time and interactions has drastically increased but the quality is still very poor. Very often the topic ends up being the A or things related to the A. I hope that with time I can keep the quantity but improve the quality.

Astrix,

You are on course, and I really don't think there is anything you can do to speed up the emotional recovery timeline. Just like any wound, time is required, and it will leave a scar.

As for you FWW. All I can tell you given the deed is done. Post D-Day it sounds like your one lucky dude! You are getting alot of things from her in days or weeks, most here only dreamed of after many painful months.

Again, I'm not trying to make what happen to you seem trivial or stay it hasn't been painful, but it truly sounds like she will do whatever is required to get to recovery. I'm a bit jealous.

Good on ya for letting the OMW know the truth.

You next vacation should be in about 6-8 months, and only the 2 of you. I think you will enjoy it much more.

asterix, you're doing great and as JKT pointed out, your FWW is doing more than most. Managing your emotions, as you have already stated, is important for you right now. Easier said than done, I know.

You need to focus on becoming the kind of H that she WANTS to be with. It will be hard for her to constantly keep hearing about the biggest mistake of her life.

What helped for me was to vent in IC, or write down my feelings. Keeping them bottled up is no good. But directing my raw anger at my FWW was not helpful in the least.

Do you have other avenues to vent? The driving range ended up being my best method <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well it's true, compared to some of the other stories I have read, it seems that my situation is not the worse. According to my W, she always loved me, never thought about leaving me, has always understood that what she had done was a huge mistake, wants to stay with me, and wants to rebuild our mariage. The A was also over by the time I found out and they were in NC for 3-4 months by the time she admitted it. I wonder what would have happened and how she would have reacted if I had found out about this when it was going on...but I guess I will never know. So, yes, keeping in mind that everything is relative, it could be worse, but let me tell you that it is by far still the most painful and devastating experience of my life.

This site has been a nice avenue for me to vent and verbalize my emotions. I have also shared the story about the A with my closest friend and he has been very helpful. Other than that that's pretty much it.

I think that her only area of dissatisfaction with me has been the lack of affection/attention. For a period of time leading to the A I just wasn't paying much attention to her, she had raised a red flag a number of times but I think that I never really understood what she meant and what she wanted. After the A (but still not knowing about it) I was traveling a lot and started to really cherish my time with her, looking forward to being with her, seeking her attention and wanting to give her mine. However at that time she is the one that wasn't letting be afectionate. She recently told me that she felt she didn't deserve it and that if I knew the truth that I wouldn't want to touch her or be with her, so she distanced herself from me out of shame and guilt and kept to herself. So this further deepened the emotional gap between us. Now obviously the A is out in the open. It will take time for us to get closer but it seems that we both want that to happen. I think that we are both eager to regain the complicity and closeness that we had when we were dating or were newly weds. But we also both understand that it will take time. I think that if we can be successful there and if I can avoid torturing her with the A, then I think that we will be the perfect mates for each other.

This leads me to the topic of SF. Our sex life has basically sucked for years now, both in quantity and intensity. She will tell me that she had a hard time being 'physically' close when we were so 'emotionally' distant. Even though she tells me that she was not looking for a PA, and that since the PA she is overall 'negative' about the idea of sex, I wonder if there is a need there that she is not expressing, maybe because she is embarassed to bring it up, or maybe even embarassed to admit it to herself (possibly due to education, upbringing, shame, etc). Bottom line she had a PA and had sex with the OM three nights in a row so there must have been a need or a desire there that she wanted to fulfill. I just wonder if there isn't an untold emotional need there. How can I check that? Should I try to spice things up and see how she reacts? Is it too early for me to venture in those waters? I am thinking that this period of our life may be the right time to turn things around there too. Any advice/opinion along those lines?

asterix, IMHO that's a really promising avenue to pursue. I don't mean the SF particularly, I just mean the general idea of asking what you yourself can do to improve yourself and your approach to the marriage, and how you can be a better husband. I hope you will keep going that direction..

I've been through this (sig line below). That doesn't mean I know the answers. I don't. But I do know that one answer for me is to be the best husband my wife could ask for. I think that would work for your marriage. God bless.

Well, quite an interesting night last night. The OM’s W called me back. To make a long story short she threw her H out of the house and they have been separated since I told her what happened. He apparently tried to deny most of it saying things like ‘it only happened once’ (when in fact they had sex the whole week), or ‘I couldn’t perform’ (where apparently that wasn’t a problem), or ‘It was brief’ (when in fact they would spend the whole nights together), or ‘I used a condom’ (when in fact he didn’t) – she confronted him on this lies and he eventually retracted. His W realizes that he was lying through his teeth about most facts related to the A and she has absolutely no trust in him. The more devastating information I heard was that he essentially blamed my W for the whole thing, saying that she planned it all, initiated it all, had actually reworked her schedule to spend a maximum amount of time with him, invited herself to his place the first night (my W tells me that he is the one who invited her), etc. My W also supposedly had this big ‘master plan’ to eventually tell me about the A so that I would tell his W so that they could both be separated and could live together. He said that my W had always hoped that at some time they would end up together. Basically he is trying to make himself appear as a pawn in my W’s game. My W appeared shocked when I told her what the OM’s W told me. She completely denies the ‘master plan’ theory and said that she never thought about leaving me for him. She denies reworking her schedule to be with him, etc. At this point I just don’t know who to believe, I really want to believe my wife but I am so afraid that she is lying to me too and trying to protect herself at this point, just like he is. So most of last night and this morning I was questioning her incessantly, asking her for facts, asking the same questions over and over. Several times she told me that my questions were not helping and we were not getting anywhere, that we needed the counselor to discuss this. She also told me that she felt ‘frightened’ not knowing why exactly but just a feeling she had. At this point I just don’t know what to do, is she lying to me? How can I find out? Is she telling me the truth and he is just trying to find a scenario that minimizes his role in the A? Is she indeed completely insane and still hoping that they can be together? Will I ever really know the truth?

Based on what's happened so far, if I was you I'd more quickly believe your FWW's version of the story. The OM has been exposed as a lying [email]b@stard[/email], so it's no wonder your FWW feels like that. My advice: stop the questioning unless you're trying to find out something from her that you don't know already. You could try creating a journal of what you know about the A, and use that to guide/limit your questioning to the things you don't know and REALLY need to find out. It will also help to highlight any inconsistencies in her story, if there are any.

This is kind of what I have done with my cause-effect diagram (see earlier posting), basically trying to summarize what I ‘know’ or at least what I think I understand. So far I have to admit that the inconsistencies in her stories have been 'minimal', I would almost say 'technicalities'. No big revelations or retractions on anything, at least not yet.

But the problem is that I feel the need to perseverate on the things that I supposedly already 'know'. I will come back to the same things over and over again because I really don't trust her answers, or I want to test them again to make sure that she says the same thing and sticks to her story. I think that it's that part of our discussions that really bothers/annoys her as she feels that we are not making any progress. She definitely feels that she has already answered the same questions many times, sometimes she will even tell me "Tell me what you want to hear and that's what I will say". She has the feeling that I don't really listen to her and that I am looking for some other answer, and until I get that answer I will keep asking her the same questions over and over. She is probably right about that.

At this point I am also more inclined to believe her version than that of the OM, but still with some caveats. She has shown more honesty than he has – she has admitted the A (although 7 months after it took place) and has been fairly forward with the facts associated with it (although they were provided in a ‘piece meal’ fashion in the days/weeks that followed). But after what happened, it is just difficult for me to really ‘trust’ her. I am so suspicious about everything.

This morning I sent her another email, basically summarizing what the OM’s W had told me and asking her to clarify (again) her answers to some of the questions that I have asked. When I spoke to her on the phone afterwards she told me that she was not interested to go over the same things again, that she felt we were not making progress. So she basically declined to respond.

She tells me that I don’t seem to care about what she says, what she thinks, and what she feels comfortable talking about (e.g. details of the sexual A). I told her that I thought it was selfish for her at this time to think like that as her ‘discomfort’ was not comparable to what I was going through. She also feels uncomfortable around me because of my mood swings. She will tell me “one minute you’re being nice to me and telling me that you love me and the next you’re ready to throw me out of the house”. I am on a roller-coaster of emotions and I feel that I am really taking her for a ride with me. In a way I think that I should minimize the external ‘stimuli’ that I get like when I’m talking to the OM’s W or to the friends that she shared the A with. Everyone seems to have their own opinion and interpretation of things but really I am still not seeing any new facts or new evidence, just hearsay. Those external ‘stimuli’ or pseudo-sources of information are really a double-edge sword, sometimes they calm me down because I am hearing good things, other times they really throw me in a spin of emotions because I start imaging a completely different scenario. But yet I feel compelled to seek that ‘information’ to double-check what she is telling me. It is a vicious circle that’s basically fueled by my lack of trust – and my emotions are all over the place.

Astrix,

I honestly understand your frustration here, but I'm telling you at some point you need to stop with the attempts to recreate her A. It's done, clear the chaulk board, asnd carry on.

Now is the time to focus on the post devistation repairs. Your W is with you, wants to be with you. Try to re-direct this mental energy toward letting go, and moving on. It will lighten the load you are both carrying.

JKT - I often start or end my day with that resolution "focus on the present and the future, the past cannot be changed" but then I miserably fail and regress to analyzing the A. Since yesterday, the thought that there may be a 'master plan' to eventually leave me to be with him is really scaring me - but I also think that my wife would literaly have to be insane/demented to think that they could reconnect at this point (it seems that the OM has not interest in contacting her, and she tells me that she doesn't want that either). I am afraid that I am not making my decision to move on based on solid grounds right now, that maybe I am still living an illusion, that maybe I still don't really know what's really going on - and that's really slowing down my 'progress'.

Asterix-
I know exactly what you are going through. My WH confessed his 2 yr A on 2/1/06. H only confessed because the OW threatened him that if he didn't leave me, she would come over to our home and tell me herself. I threw him out that night. We were only married 2-1/2 yr. We've always known we had issues to work on and we went counseling.

While throwing him out is not advised on MB, the seperation in some ways helped us. I forgave H on Valentine's Day as my gift and commitment to wanting to rebuild our marriage. Although he made me believe he wanted the same thing, I went through the same anxiety you are going through. But like your WW, he kept lying.

We saw each other 2-4 times a week to try to rebuild our marriage which was very encouraging. I tried my best to not bring up the A each time, but we both agreed that we would need to from time to time and we did so in a calm manner. Although I knew H was still in contact with OW, I had to ask if he was sleeping with her while he and I have been sleeping as well. With a straight face, he said no. My gut feeling said otherwise. Contact the OW on 3/1 and she confirmed my suspicion. That night, I decided that I was done.

MB forum has helped me in two ways. One, it became the main source of support and helped me understand the dynamics of what makes marriage intact. Two, it helped me decide what I needed to do next was to take care of myself first.

People make the conscious decision to have affairs have a very low self esteem, and they don't love and respect themselves. If they did, they would know how to love and respect those they profess to love. It's all about them.
And what I came to realize is that my H has become a master in lies.

To keep my sanity, self respect and dignity intact, I had to ask myself these questions:

1. Am I willing to trade in my self respect in order to cater to my WH emotional needs while he go through all stages while I suffer emotionally indefinitely? And even if he pulls through it, do I want to spend the rest of my life with this man wondering if he'll ever be faithful again?

2. Am I going to keep what's left of my dignity, self respect and sanity and walk away knowing that I will never have to wonder if my WH will ever be faithful?

I decided to go with question number two because it guarantees that my WH can't hurt me anymore. And I also know that there are people out there who will not compromise their self respect regardless when they encounter problems in their relationship.

Good luck.

Astrix,

Again all totally understandable.

Life as you knew it has changed.

Everything you felt sure of is now in question.

The trust you had for your W, has been shattered.

You have been hurt, and although you want a solid unwaiverable M, you also have to protect yourself from further damage.

These factors will continue to leave you questioning everything. Making you hyper-sensitive. But will settle in time.

To answer question 1:
First I hope that I will not suffer emotionally indefinitely - a lot of people have told me that things get better over time. I want to believe that even though at this time the pain is so intense that I feel that it will never go away. Self-respect is a tough one. Basically I am asking myself if I want to throw away my past with her, my future with her, all our experiences, and jeopardize the stability of my family because of this A. Can I really give that much power to that one-time event? Can those few weeks weigh that heavily in a lifetime? Is it a lack of self-respect to try to find the will to forgive the one you love for the terrible thing that they have done? Is it a lack of self-respect to want to rebuild a life with the person who has betrayed you but seems genuinely interested in living the rest of their life with you? The question of trust is a tough one too and one for which I don't have an answer. I think that everyone who has been cheated on lives in the fear of this happening to them again, and I am no exception. That fear paralyzes me. Part of it we can try to control by trying to rebuild a vibrant relationship (e.g. rules of care, protection, honesty, and time), part of it is always going to be out of our control as we can't control the actions and emotions of our spouse. So here the only thing we can probably do is 'mitigate' the risk. Here my wife tells me that it will 'never' happen again, that she went through the most painful experience of her life and has caused so much damage that she never want to repeat the same mistake. It's understandable that she would say that now, do I believe her? Well I just think that we have to mitigate the risk together by working on our relationship and hope for the best. There are no certainties in life (other than death and taxes!).

To answer question 2:
I obviously thought about throwing her out of the house but I couldn't do it. First I think that it would not make my healing easier, I would still be in a lot of pain and it would also cause a lot of stress on my family, and then I would miss her. More importantly I still really love her and I want to live the rest of my life with her. When I spoke to the OM's W, she told me that she no longer had feelings for him, she felt numb and wanted him out of her life. Personally I don't want those things. I am anything but numb, actually my emotions are raw and intense: love, anger, jealousy, sadness - but I can't imagine myself living without her and I think that she is honest when she tells me that she wants to spend the rest of her life with me too. Now, does that make me less dignified, less sane, and less self-respectful? I don't know.

No it makes you smart enough to realize a decission of this magnitude requires alot of thought. Removing the emotional knee jerk reaction lots of people end up questioning or regreting later.

If you put the time and effort into this, and then things still fail. It wasn't because you didn't make the effort.

That's also how I feel - we have so much invested in our life together and in our relationship that I think it deserves at least one solid attempt at recovery. Hopefully it will be successful.

Yesterday when I spoke to the OM's W, I really felt that she had given up on her marriage - she spoke about separation, divorce, and moving on with her life. I felt awkward about giving the OM's W some advice but I told her that she shouldn't rush things and not let the A do more irreparable damage.

But this being said I think that the situation is a bit different for her. After D-Day she still sees a lot of lying and she recognizes somewhat of a pattern in his behavior - she tells me that he has always been very flirtatious with women and over the last 2 to 4 years she has had some real concerns: one time one of his other female co-workers propositioned him and he supposedly declined - he told his W who confronted the woman. Then there was another instance of a younger female co-worker who would call his house to talk about 'personal matters'. Once again his W intervened and told the other woman never to call again. Now she really wonders if this is truly his first A as he claims. Still she told me that before I told her about the A she had complete trust in him. She even told me that when I started telling her about the A she wanted to interrupt me because she just didn't think that her H could do such a thing. It's only when I kept talking and presented the evidence that she came to the conclusion that I was telling the truth. It's at that time that she said she felt a 'metal door' slam in her mind and she stopped having feelings for him, going numb immediately. She immediately packed up the kids and went to her parents for the weekend. Since then they have lived apart. In hindsight I think that she really did not want to know about this. She tells herself that if she had stayed in the dark she would have been happier and maybe it would have never happened again. In a way I think that I forced my thirst for honesty onto her, believing that everyone would want to know about something like this. But maybe that wasn’t the case for her. Now she sees her world collapsing. Ignorance is indeed bliss for some people.

As for me the situation is still far from improving right now. I had my W on the phone a couple of minutes ago and she was in tears. She feels physically sick because of the stress level right now. She is completely destabilized by my mood swings. Earlier she told me “Last night you said that you loved me and that eventually I would have to forgive myself for what I did – this morning you basically told me that maybe I shouldn’t be coming home tonight”. She will then say that sometimes I give her hope and other times I take it all away. I do realize that I am doing those things, sometimes it feels like I am unconsciously toying with her, pushing her away and them bringing her back, expecting that she will take it and still tell me that she loves me and is sorry for what she did, and possibly even have sex with me afterwards. I do have to stop this destructive behavior if I want a chance at recovery. Does anyone have any suggestions in how to get out of this vicious circle? Please help.

I have found it helpful, when dealing with conflict, to distinguish between three possible responses:

1 - attack - "I am unconsciously toying with her, pushing her away"

2 - avoid - "this morning you basically told me that maybe I shouldn’t be coming home tonight"

3 - confide - tell her how you are feeling, hurting, thinking, respectfully, without demanding anything in return.

You both need to give yourselves some time to deal with this. It WILL be a bumpy ride. Expect flare ups and arguments but always come back and ask forgiveness and constantly remind each other that you intend to make this work.

Why do you betrayed husbands put yourself through this kind of torture? If your wives loved you to begin with, they wouldn't have cheated on you. Why suffer twice? Find somebody that will respect you enough to not cheat on you. Not that such a woman exists but atleast you know with your WWs you're not getting the respect there.

Rick7355 - I am looking for PRO-marriage help here.

I did, the first time that my FWW told me that. That first A of hers happened before we were M'd. We're now recovering from her second A, and I'm not prepared to accept such comments at face value again.

While your WW says she wants to spend the rest of her life with you, that alone should not be enough to convince you ('cause isn't that what she suggested in her M vows to you?).

You can rebuild your relationship, but part of that rebuilding requires your WW to look into herself and "fix" whatever it is that made it acceptable to have an A.

ManInMotion,

I completely agree with you and I have discussed this topic with my W. I also hope that counseling will help there - when I made the appointment the counselor said "your W will also have to learn that the A was not the appropriate answer to whatever was going on" - so I got the message that he will dig into that as well.

So far I am not sure that she understands what she needs to 'fix' per se. She understands that she can never let herself get that close to another man again (friendship led to EA, EA led to PA). I also think that the friendship led to an EA to compensate for the emotional connection she felt she lacked with me at the time - a fix for the loneliness - she doesn't deny that. But I think that we will have to dig deeper in matters of self-esteem, communications (did she fail in communicating her needs for affection? Did she give up?), and god knows what else.

Typically what have you seen that WW needed to 'fix' to avoid another A? What root causes were identified?

That's one of those things that worries me a bit in our recovery. I'm not sure that my FWW had truly looked inside herself for an answer to that question. She probably thinks the A happened because the OM was meeting ENs that I wasn't meeting, but if it was just about missing ENs, it's likely we would all be having As. There's a bit more involved than simply ENs that are not being met.

What do emotional needs have to do with having sex with another man? Those are sexual needs. And if you believed your wife before you got married and when you took the vows to be faithful to one another, why would you trust her now? Leave her and don't look back.

asterix if you like, the system allows you to ignore a user. Click on the user's name, then click the 'ignore this user' button. Easy.

Well I am proud of myself for last night. My goal was to give her a pleasant evening and I was able to do so. I was able to avoid the topic of the A, not ask any questions, and give her a lot of affection. She responded very well to that and told me that she really needed me to hold her. She cried a few times telling me how bad she was feeling and how sorry she was for what happened - she was letting some of her emotions out without being prompted. I told her several times that I loved her, that things would work out, and that I was committed to our recovery. She seemed very encouraged by those words. She told me that she didn't think she deserved my love after what she did but she thanked me for saying those things and told me that she loved me too and wanted to spend the rest of her life with me. She also told me that she wanted to be a good wife to me, like she was in the past - and that I wouldn't be disappointed if I decided to spend the rest of my life with her.

The warmth that we had last night was not only pleasant for her but for me as well. It gave me hope and made me feel very good. This morning I feel calmer. I am hoping that those good moments between us will become more frequent and will eventually replace the arguments, resentment, and anxieties related to the A.

weneedhelp - thanks, I have taken your advice and ignored that user.

Astrix,

Thats awesome! Exactly what is needed for you both. The more that happens, the easier letting go of the past becomes, changing your focus toward the present, and future.

It's those small steps that add up to recovery.

Yes I think that this reprieve from talking about the A did us some good. I had my W on the phone this morning and she told me that as a result she had a number of positive thoughts today about our future together, definitely glimpses of hope for her as well who has been thinking that her life was forever ruined and that I wouldn’t want to live with her. It is a bit amazing to see the positive effect that a little affection, a little warmth, and mainly not talking about the A for a few hours can have in this phase of our recovery.

She knows that we still need to talk about the A and still have a lot of issues to resolve around it, but she wants to be able to spend some time with me without the A being our only topic of conversation. It seems that the SAA book and several articles recommend that as well. She also wants our discussions about the A to be more constructive, possibly under the guidance of a counselor (first session in less than 2 weeks).

Talking about the A makes her very nervous because she never knows how I am going to interpret a statement that she makes and what will set me off. It’s also obviously a very unpleasant topic for her, one that constantly reminds her of her shame, guilt, and worthlessness. When she gets a phone call from me she never knows if it’s just to say hello or if I am going to call her a liar because of what I heard from the OM’s W or someone else. When we do an activity together she never knows if it’s going to be pleasant or if I am going to corner her with waves of questions. An instance of that was last Sunday. I told her that I was interested in going to church with her in the morning, she was looking forward to us doing that together. After mass, on the way back home, I felt compelled to park the car in the neighborhood, a block from the house, and started asking her a bunch of questions for half an hour. In a way I spoiled what could have been a simple and nice moment together. I really see it as a challenge to avoid the topic of the A – it seems to be the only thing I think about all day, I feel literally obsessed with it – all day I brew questions and what-if scenarios in my mind and when I am with her I want answers, either confirmation or corrections on the assumptions and scenarios that I constructed in my head. Not only for her but also for my own sake and sanity I really have to stop doing that. I am going to make myself sick and it really doesn’t seem to help with anything – it’s basically destructive.

My dream is to rebuild our marriage and for us to be happy again together. I want to be her friend, her confident, her lover, and the father of her children. She tells me that she wants all those things to and that she misses the complicity and closeness that we used to have. At this point and as a first step, I think that rebuilding our friendship will really require that I give her a break on the topic of the A, maybe keeping those discussions for the sessions with the counselor. At this time I see her being completely overwhelmed with the topic – from our continuous conversations about it to the emails that I send her and the phone calls that I make – it’s just too much for her right now.

How do you all get through this phase? How did you prevent the A from being your only topic of conversation and your constant companion? Part of me also wonders if I am going to go too fast here – is it too early to manage the volume of conversations on this topic? But I have been literally talking about it EVERY DAY for almost a month now. And I see my wife just running out of steam on the topic.

Maybe its time to fine a better way to address the Q and A sessions.

In the guidance of the MC, is great. She will know, and be prepared for it. Unlike the 1.5 hour Right Hook to the jaw she received Sunday without warning. (Again, please don't feel I'm faulting you.) Just trying to help you avoid.

Maybe write them down, ASK her to sit down with you for some Q+A. Again, allowing her to expect it.

I'm sure you both felt like the 100lb sack was lifted, the huge sigh of relief during that short moment of "just caring about each other" without the stress.

Good on ya.

At this point I would like to be able to avoid any questions before the first session with the MC (10 days to go). I think that it may still be a too ambitious a goal at this point but it doesn't hurt to try. Anyway as far as the questions are concerned I don't seem to be really uncovering anything new or of significance and therefore they usually do more harm (stress/anxiety) than good (new information/better understanding). We will see how far I can get.

That 100lb sack was indeed briefly lifted but this afternoon I was sitting in a boring meeting and the thoughts of them together came back and made me noxious. Quite a ride!

I just had a chat with my W on the phone. As I said in the previous post I really felt like crap this afternoon and felt that I needed to talk to her about it, not to vent or to blame her or to ask questions, but basically just to talk to my life companion about my feelings and be comforted.

She was really nice. She says that she doesn't have a problem talking about my feelings and helping me through that. Actually I hope that she will feel comfortable talking to me about her feelings too. The thing she needs a break from is to talk about the how, what, when, why of the A itself. She actually thanked me for being considerate of that and for helping her define the boundaries of what she felt comfortable talking about and what she wanted a break from. After talking with her I felt better.

She did say something that worries me though. She said 'I will probably never be fine, but hopefully I will be ok'. The shame and guilt of what happened really took its toll on her and she realizes the impact that it has had on her life and on her future. For months now she has believed that she had ruined her life and that I wouldn't want to be with her when I found out. In a way she has been grieving our marriage for months without much hope for recovery (thinking that I would throw her out as soon as I found out). Admitting the A was definitely a very brave step for her and I completely recognize the woman that I married in this honesty and desire to do the right thing. Now seeing that I am willing to work things out and hearing that I am committed to our recovery is giving her the first signs of hope in months but I think that she is still numb and overwhelmed from the burden of anxiety and self-hate that she has carried since the A and is still carrying. When I hear that I do realize that she will need as much help as I do, if not more, in getting over this.

Perfect! This is exactly what will help you both cope, and I believe you will find it helps work toward closure much better than the Q+A. This is something that will benefit you both.



Alot of her feeling are going to be a direct result of the pain she see's you dealing with. As time passes, and you strenghten your bond her guilt will also lighten.

As much as she reassures you of her love, and acknowledges her mistake, you must reassure her you are in it for the long haul. That you will both survive this, and use this experience as a tool to make you M stronger. The silver lining of this whole nightmare.

Last night and this morning were tough - I am feeling a lot of anxiety, stress, and sadness. Just rehashing what I know of the events in my head. I literally had to do breathing exercises in the car on the way to work to release some of the tension in my chest.

When I got to work this morning she gave me a call, she was very nice, and asked me how I was doing. I was just thinking that since she admitted the A our volume of communications has really sky-rocketed – we rarely used to speak to each other during business hours before that. Not that the topics have been pleasant, actually most of the time it was to talk about the A, but over the last couple of days I have seen a positive change. I hope that, as I said before, we can keep the ‘quantity’ while improving the ‘quality’ or content of our conversations over time.

This morning she kept telling me how sorry she was for what happened, that she loves me, and that she has hope for our future. She keeps saying that she is starting to understand the process that led to the affair, that she has learned her lesson and that she will never let that happen again. She says that she is so angry at herself for letting it happen. She says that it was been a terrible experience for her and that she would rather die than go through this again. She says that she is so thankful that I decided to keep her in my life, she promises that I won’t be disappointed and that she will work very hard to be the wife and mother that she wants to be. She understands that I have a hard time trusting such statements and she admits that only time will tell. For me at this point, it is just hard to believe what she says after such a betrayal. I keep asking myself why someone who supposedly ‘loves’ you would do such a thing. I keep wondering what her true intentions are.

She is obviously very stressed herself and absolutely exhausted by the process. Since she admitted the A she has obviously had to rehash a lot of its details and it has been difficult for her. She is also having a hard time concentrating at work. In an A like this one, I wonder who will have an easier time moving on, is it the BS or the WS? Are the two correlated? Does one depend on the other?

It's great you recognize that asterix. It's hard to give the help she needs when you've been hurt yourself, but that's what you have to do. Give it all up to her. Make her feel totally loved - so loved that she can't have any remaining questions about your love for her.

If you can do that, it will also help you to think less about your own pain. Loving your wife will make you feel better as well.

I'm not a big expert, but I'm guessing that the reason some marriages in this situation end up in D is because sometimes the BS isn't capable of giving the WS the love she needs. The situation can, over time, become a learning growing experience - but not every person has the capacity to make that happen. I'm sure you have that capacity, and can turn your marriage into a deeper more loving M that will last for decades. Hang in there and love your wife asterix.

Well I think that I basically have three options right now: 1) I re-invest in my marriage, we both learn from what happened and we both work towards a stronger and more fulfilling marriage, 2) I throw her out and we get separated/divorced, 3) we stay together and I make her life, mine, and that of my kids miserable by staying stuck in the pain and anger of the A – I never forgive her and I focus on torturing her (and me) for the rest of her life.

I have chosen (1). After the A she was convinced that I would have chosen (2) but she is extremely thankful that I chose (1), which is also what she wants. In my view (3) is not a viable option as it would either lead to (2) or to a life of misery – neither of which I want.

(1) will require forgiveness, guided effort, and vision – and it will be fueled by our love for each other and the love for our family. I think that this option will give me the greatest source of happiness and will be the healthiest for my children. It is the option that will give me the most stability and pride if it succeeds. It is the only option that recognizes the value of our life together and attempts to turn a devastating event into s (what JKT called “the silver lining in this nightmare”). I am not saying that (1) will be easy or that I am even capable of doing it but that’s the road that I want to take, that’s a road that gives me hope. I pray that I will have the discipline and character to stay on that road and that my W will prove to be the right companion and will do her part. Time will tell…

Astrix,

Going back to your first few posts in the thread, I see I few things that I am sure you are aware of, but just a reminder.


Who admits to having an A? The spouse who recognizes there mistake, the lie is eating away at them.

Would she ever have voluntarily told you if she had any hopes to continue her A, or had feelings for him? No way...



Yes the toll is heavy, but I'm sure you can see the potential opportunity you have here.

Can you think of anything your W has done to hinder recovery?

I believe it BigKahuna says it best:

"Recovery is not for wimps"

She hasn’t done anything to hinder recovery since D-Day. Obviously there were those times where she didn’t feel comfortable sharing the details of the PA or where she was fed up with my constant questioning or where she felt too embarrassed to go see a counselor but overall I believe that she has been as open and honest as she could be.

At this point I ‘think’ that I have all the details that I need and I feel much less compelled to question her about the specifics of the A, she has also accepted to go see the counselor with me (and actually she seems to think that the MC will help us make progress). At my request she read the book SAA and filled out the EN questionnaire. She has also been very affectionate and patient with me and has done an effort to meet my EN for SF and affection (we share the one for ‘affection’). The one-week vacation we went on with the kids did us some good and enabled us to spend a lot of time together – it wasn’t always easy but there were some enjoyable moments for both of us. We talk a lot, we cry, we hug, we hold each other’s hand. In a way I think that we both realize in our hearts that we could have lost everything and we don’t take each other for granted anymore.

I do have the feeling that we are now slowly entering a different phase of the recovery (or maybe I am), I am just hoping that neither of us will regress. Of course we still need to have our first session with the MC. I am wondering to what extent this will rock the boat and possibly make negative emotions resurface, nevertheless I hope that it will benefit us.

Recovery is indeed not for wimps but my W and I have never been afraid of a challenge before and hopefully this will be another victory for us and for our family.

Asterix,

You asked a question I thought I would address
There are many answers to this, but I am guessing that the one that applies to your situation goes something like this. She loved herself more than she loved you. In short, she was selfish. Oddly, it very likely was not nearly as much about you or even the OM, as it was about her.

It is about the "giver" and "taker" and when they get out of balance really bad decisions can be made. From everything you have said, she normally is a very well balanced person in these matter, but for a period of time she lost perspective. Will she do it again? Oddly I would guess not. She seems to have come to an understanding about what she did even if she does not understand WHY completely. Further, she told you and wanted to rebuild even if she thought the chance was small.

In many ways you are a very lucky man, but knowing that doesn't mean you get much of a short cut.

You also said
You may not realize this, but the fact that you BOTH realize you could lose something very dear is crucial to a good recovery. It reminds me of a true story. A friend of my W's was having trouble with her memory so she went to the Doc. He talked with her, and discussed the situation. He asked her "Do you know you know the name of the person you cannot remember the name of? She answered "Yes." "Do you know that you know the place, or the building you are going to or have been in?" She answered "Yes". He asked a few more questions but then said,

"you don't have a memory problem.YOu are just too busy, have too many things going on." She asked "How do you know?" He responded: "If you had a true memory problem, you would not even recall that you ever knew that persons name, or that you knew that fact, or where you had been. You just need to slow down a bit."

I think the fact that you both recognize what you can lose means the same as this lady KNOWING she knew the name. Her memory was not going, and neither is your marriage. There is a lot there to build on, you two just need to slow down, keep talking and make each other a greater part of the other's life than you have in the past.

They don't call it the "rollercoaster" for nothing Asterix. You will have triggers from time to time that will set you back abit. Expect them, talk about them with your W, and even discuss that you will have them from time to time BEFORE they occur. Oh! and expect that she will have a few triggers as well, and be ready to let them exist and then fade.


Probably will rock the boat abit, but it the counselor is good, you will gain new and better tools to deal with the "sea sickness". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


You got that right, but with your W at your side working with you to rebuild this marriage I think you two are tough enough to do this. Just remember and remind her, you two are a team and when one is down they need to let the other know so that they can take over more of the load for a short time.

Hang in there, I think you two are doing fine.

God Bless,

JL

asterix, I am reading your story for two days now and it makes me cry every time. What I want to say is that you have a very good chance of making it work. It is too late now (3 AM my time) but I want to make my comments as a women. It sound like your wife is really ashamed and sorry (I think women can be ashamed of the affairs, unfortunately not like men). I know personally that if she feels that way she will not remember him very soon. I think you are lucky. I was also surprised that a man could have such a strong emotions. If I would want to describe what I went through it would be exactly your words. I appologise for my broken English, I don't feel like checking and correcting what I am writing.
Cheers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Triggers are indeed everywhere: movies, ads, songs - it seems that anything related to love, feelings, kissing, or making love is automatically associated with the A in my mind. Yesterday my W and I were sitting on the couch and were watching 'Shrek 2'. Even in this animation movie I got a trigger when the two characters started talking about love. I think that my W sensed the anxiety building within me and she changed the channel. What kind of triggers should I expect for her?


I have seen us do that a few times already in the last four weeks since D-Day. One day (like yesterday afternoon for instance) I will be the hopeful one and I will tell her inspiring things that will give her hope too and it will make her feel better. Then there are moments like last night where I feel that my world is falling apart and I am desperate - at that time she holds me, hugs me, gives me a kiss and tells me that I am going to be ok and that we are going to make it through this. I hope that we can continue to support each other like this.

This morning I have yet another feeling. I have the suspicion that my W may have done some 'protective lying' recently. I have no evidence of this, just a gut feeling. I have the feeling that she is answering my questions in a way that avoids painful discussions (opening a can of worms) - maybe to protect my emotions or maybe just to avoid another exhausting conversation. I have sent her an email about this today - saying that I suspect protective lying and that I expect brutal honesty. Of course maybe I am just being paranoid about all this...I just don't know.

Maril - thank you very much for your encouraging words, they give me hope. Sometimes I do indeed feel 'lucky' although it doesn't seem quite right to call oneself 'lucky' in such circumstances. But I make an effort to count my blessings.

Men do have emotions, strong emotions - I just think that some are better than others at expressing them. For me, using this discussion group and trying to verbalize and articulate my thoughts and emotions has been beneficial.

My W already called me this morning to address my email about 'protective lying'. She elaborated on the couple of points that I raised in my email and it gave me confidence that she was not trying to hide anything from me. She will acknowledge that she doesn't remember all the details of each conversation with the OM but she tells me that she is being honest about what she does remember.

Honesty is however risky as she always wonder how I am going to react to what she tells me. She will say that she is still insecure about my decision to stay with her and that she wonders if one day I just won't tell her that I 'changed my mind'. I told her that she shouldn't try to manage my emotions through her answers, our goal should be brutal honesty. Managing my emotions is my challenge, not hers. I also told her that despite the emotional ups and downs that I am going through, my vision is and remains the same 'commitment to recovery and to a life together'. It's just a rocky road.

It was another good phone call with her. Now I am trying to think about some fun activities we could do with the kids this weekend... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Astrix,

Yes you will be paranoid. Atleast I was, and sometimes still am.

Recently I had to go to the cable company to rebuild a phone log for tax purposes. It's almost 2 years later, and I am still concerned about what I might find? There is no reason for this. I can account for her where abouts 24/7. She works at home, we have a 5yo DD. I have virtually no reason to suspect anything. None the less these thoughts creep into your head.

I guess it's a new defense mechanism for ensuring there will be no relaps.

Maril,


I don't thinks it a male/female thing. I feel it's depends on the indiviual.

My W and I were both BS. I had an A 10 years ago. Hers 2 years ago.

I felt horrible, and hide the A for years until I just couldn't take it any longer. I made no excusses. It was my mistake, and mine only. Yes, there were issues in our M that lead to it, but 100% my choice.

D-day 2 years ago (my W's A) she blamed me for it, and took no responsibility for her actions. It was MY fault.

Now 2 years later. She shows me affection, is very tuned in to "US", but is still unable to say the ILY's. That hurts, and has really slowed our recovery.

Anyway, enough threadjacking for one day "Sorry Astrix" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

JKT - Did the fact that you had an A before help you cope with your W's A? In other words did you already have an understanding of the mechanics that lead to the A, etc. that made it easier to get a bit more perspective on what was going on with your W? Did your A make you less likely to 'judge' her? Did she ever use your A an an excuse for hers?

Note that I am not saying that one should have an A to help them deal with their spouse's betrayal.

Sorry for making statements. I meant to say typically.

asterix,
did you think to do something for yourself? Going to the gym or target shooting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, etc. I think alot what we are going through has to do with our pride and improving yourself helps building the self-esteem. I lost almost 20 'baby' pounds I was strugling with for 3 years after my daugter was born and I look better then anytime in the last few years. It helped alot. I understand that everyone is different but worth trying. Also you don't want your wife only to be sorry for you. You want her to be interested in you. I went to the beauty salon the day I found out about the A. Of course I cried all the time there but I felt my existance. Also we went to Las Vegas two month after DDay and I tried to look my best (for myself not my WH)- it was so hard to do since he was planning to go there with OW, you can imagine what I felt every second there. We always went everywhere together but I was so affraid to flight and he wanted to go to the CES (electronic show) for a few years. So this year I finally said - fine, go by yourself and right after that the A started. Anyway I know he liked the attention I was getting and started relize that he could loose me and someday I would be fine without him - jealousy sometimes is a good thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.(Actually I am sure I would be over the whole thing by now if I left him. But I keep trying).

asterix,
I also had an A right after we were married. I can explain every reason why I didn't and don't feel guilty - the circumstances of our marriage were very different. I feel sorry that it happened but not guilty. I will tell my story some other time. What makes it harder is that I remember that when you have an A you don't really think about your other half. BS does not exist at that time and it drives me crazy. But also ask me today about the OM and I will not remember him. He is nothing to me. No feelings, no memories, nothing. But I remember that I liked him at the time and I think how my husband enjoyed having sex with other person, just because she is new and it was exciting. You will feel better soon but try to love yourself too.

Maril - I haven't done much along those lines yet other than take on an officer role in a local professional association. That's something I was already thinking about doing before knowing about the A and I felt that it would get me out of the house, extend my social network, and distract me a bit from my daily nightmare.

Interestingly enough I have indeed noticed that I try to 'show off' to my W more than before (in the things that I do, in what I wear, in my behavior around others, etc). I think that part of it is motivated by a need for attention and part of it to rub her nose in what she could have lost. At first I thought that the behavior was a bit childish but now I realize that it’s probably a very normal reaction to what happened. Joining a gym is a very good idea – I will consider that. I have also found myself trying to make her jealous but I am not sure if it’s having much effect on her right now.

Astrix,



Help me cope.. No, not at all
Understand the dynamics.. Yes
The best thing finding out about her A did for me, was show me just how much it hurts. This will never happen again.


There were positives, and negatives to this.

I have to start with the negatives:

She found out about my A when I admitted the A to her years after the fact. Turns out, the reason she was asking, she was involved in an A herself. During the few months she knew about my A, that I knew nothing of hers. She blamed the failure of our M solely on me, and my actions. I accepted that, and agreed our failure was my fault.

Fast forward a few months. We have decided to work things out, and remain M. Her jilted BF calls to inform me of their fling. Why? He was hurt, she would not speak with him, she avoided him at all cost, and now he wanted revenge.

So everything has changed. I am no longer the sole reason for our M failure "I preferred it when I was". And all this time she has been was looking, and speaking down to me with blame, and fault while she is ACTIVELY doing the same thing!

Needless to say, I was left with a boat load of resentment for the way she treated during that time frame. She was also upset because the way I treated her changed after that phone call. Obviously she liked the change she saw in me when I had all this guilt.

The Positive: We were no longer living a lie. It was all on the table. The playing field was leveled. We could begin to fix all our faults.

I honestly believe it would have been easier if the blame rested solely on my shoulders. It would have been easier for me not to have known. But at some point I'm sure if what she had done were not revield, it would have slowed or stopped recovery down the road.

Or God Forbid finding out months or years into recovery. That would have brought us back to D-Day #2, and ground zero.

Just a side note here:

Her IC told her not to tell me about the A.
Her IC told her to file for D.

Her IC, became our MC. Until I found out about the recommendations above.

Lesson learned: Get the right MC, or it will be a negative experience, and waste of money.

JKT - interesting developments indeed. I can understand your resentment in being treated badly and judged for what you did when your W was doing the exact same thing. I guess that she didn't follow the "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"...

The call with the BF must have also been quite an experience. It was different in my case (I called the OM's W) but I was shaking on the phone and it was by far one of the most uncomfortable calls I have had to make. I think that those are calls that one can never forget as they are truly life changing.

I am happy for you that all the issues are on the table now - it's hard to see how one could have a successful recovery without starting on such solid grounds.

Maril,



Judging from these comments I assume you are not having much success with recovery?

Astrix,

Yes we have been together for 20 years now.

When I look back to the time period "weeks to months" post D-day (where you are now) I would say we were 95% doomed to fail. I saw no chance of recovery. Early on the only yhing that held it together were the kids. If it wasn't for our concerns of there future there was no "US". We both wanted out.

Today, speaking for myself, and hopefully my W I see no reason short of another A that would separate us.

Isn't this amazing! I actually always thought that the fact that I had an A will protect me from suffering in case it happens. I saw this so much in my earlier years, I did not really believe people could be faithul. My friend husband died when he was 30 and it turned out that he had OW for a few years while she believed she is lucky to be with him. I remember jocking that you have to cheat first just in case (I ws 25 then) and I remember her telling me that I am right. Now my own life proved that I was wrong. What I am feeling now is absolutely unbelivable. I forgot to mention that I told my husband about my A 16 years ago when his A happened so I would not feel so humiliated. It helps, but so little.

It is a difficult afternoon for me again. I am constantly haunted by thoughts of them together, part of me still in shock that my W could go through with something like this. Still today it seems so out of character as if I was talking about a stranger. I am starting to wonder if I ever really knew her or knew what she was capable of. In a way I am surprised to see myself at this stage now but I guess that I will regress, albeit temporarily, from time to time.

At this point I need her to over-compensate for the A with affection, SF, and attention for me. I literally want her to smother me. It seems that anything short of that triggers feelings of jealousy in me, sadness, and anger. SF is a dangerous area. I find myself wanting to be with her in that way, as much if not more than before. I have to say that she has made a big effort in that department, really showing a noticeable difference between pre- and post-D-Day, and getting a lot closer to meeting my EN. But when she says no it really hurts me and I feel jealousy and anger ‘why would she do it with him 3 days in a row and not with me?’, ‘why would she fool around with him and not with me?’, etc (but note that I don’t say those things to her). I will feel so rejected and insecure and the most negative thoughts invade my mind. That obviously shows up in my body language and in my mood right away to the point that she wonders what will happen when she says no. Those feelings generate so much anxiety in me that I will not be able to fall asleep for several hours and I will often have to get up to walk it off. All this creates a very tense atmosphere around SF that is obviously not conducive to more or better intimacy. I wish that I could control that more but the emotions are so intense that they often just carry me away. I think that she really feels that she is walking on egg shells around me, that the wrong comment or the wrong move will set me off. She is not completely wrong because I do indeed feel hyper-sensitive to everything she does and says but I do recognize these things and I try to manage as best as I can. Any recommendations along those lines?

This is why it is called a roller-coaster. What you are going through is entirely normal. Unfortunately that does not make it any easier to deal with. I can relate to everything you are saying.

My only advice is to continue to vent here and post and listen to the suggestions of those wiser than me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are not alone.

I physically feel your pain. First two month were terrible. Now it is still very-very dificuilt to the point that I want to pack at least once a day but it does not hurt to the point that you don't want to live. My problem was simular to yours - I could not be quite, I had to talk about it all the time. Re SF - this is probably not the first thing on her mind. Think about the days when you are depressed - I bet you don't think in this direction. Though to me it was the time when I could forget the reality. I think it has something to do not with the pleasure but the feeling of being close to your partner. Funny, I think in the first few weeks we had more S that in the last couple years which according to my husband led to his A. I used to have small drink right before going to bed and even took Xanax couple of times as the last resort. I new that if I will still complaining I will become anoying person. Also, try to make a time line. Think: I'll try to makeit till Easter, then Memorial day, etc. I was trying to make it through Xmas and New Year, then our trip to Las Vegas. Also, I don't know what state are you in. We are on the East Coast and I always feel depressed during the winter. I really hope that warm weather and sunshine will help. BTW I started smoking after 7 years brake and I spend alot of time (and money) doing this. I don't say it helps much but it keeps you busy. Another thing force yourself to watch or read something funny - you would be amaized how much this help. I recommend Funniest Home Video, Bob Marley or simular, well you know your taste better. Again, sorry for my poor English - no time for spell check.

Astrix,

Something a was going to tell you earlier you may want to consider.

Don't spend too much time on this site. As much as it has helped me. It did have a negative aspect in that it kept me focused on the pain.

I found I need to take breaks.

Now I only check-in on the threads I am active with or following, and keep it short. I used to spend hours a day here.

Anyway, Times up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

As I have already said before trust is a real issue right now and it will probably be so for quite some time. Even though I want to believe what she tells me about the A and the events (it’s over, I never loved him, I never thought about leaving you, etc.) I keep thinking that there is more to the story and that there is something she is not telling me. This is probably why I keep asking the same questions over and over to test the answers. Over the last couple of weeks I have been thinking about ‘entrapping’ her. I created an email address that very closely resembles that of the OM. Knowing my W I really don’t think that she would see the difference. So far I haven’t done anything with it but a couple of times I have thought about writing an email to her on behalf of the OM. I don’t exactly know what I would say in that email but it would probably be along the lines of: “What did this affair mean to you?”, “Why do you think that you wanted to get involved with me?”, “Do you think that we could end up together now that I am separated from my W?”, etc. I realize that I am playing with fire here and it’s probably why I haven’t sent the email yet. My W has been in NC with the OM for about 4 months now and it has been 7 months since their PA. Apparently they never talked about the A after it happened and never discussed their feelings for each other – so this email could also seem out of character. Part of me thinks that it’s better to leave things as they are (let sleeping dogs lie), but part of me thinks that this would probably be the only way for me to really know how she felt at the time and how she feels now – as I am still suspicious that she may be lying to me. I feel that ‘entrapping’ my W is the wrong thing to do if my true goal is recovery – but the lack of trust is such that I wonder if these means are not justified. What do you all think about this?

asterix

Hey man, I don't comment here too often but I really thought I might be able to help. I've read your entire story, and my story has some very interestingly similar aspects.

First off, I'll make mine real short. My wifes A was 14yrs ago and we're still hangin on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, having read your story, I'd like to request you do something, then I'll explain.

"YOU HAVE A GOOD ONE"

Now stop, take a deep breath, CLEAR your mind, and repeat the above (in quotes) three times!!

Buddy let me tell you, 14yrs ago I'd have given my left *** to have my wife do, and say the things you've said YOURS does. Truly, the similarities between my reactions and yours are staggering, there's also a measure of similarity between my wife's reactions and your's. However, the approach you describe your wife taking is different in MANY POSITIVE ways, ways that have me believing many of the troubles in my marriages recovery could have been avoided, had my wife done them. Most importantly is your wifes communication... she's doing real good, REAL good.

Dude, you have a good one... stop and realize (from your own postings) that she IS doing and saying the RIGHT things. Your insecurities aren't going to evaporate any time soon, but they WILL lessen, and eventually disappear. As will the hate, rage, anger, sadness, depression etc etc. The roller-coaster will eventually level out. Hey, this is part of the game, and the game takes time, simple. Ya just gotta do it.

Realize that human nature keeps us from throwing ourselves into a lion's den... consider yourself the lion for a moment. >>MAYBE<< your wife IS hiding certain details? Let's take a differen't angle: >>IF<< she were acting differently, sure, it would be an issue. >>IF<< she were not already open an honest, you'd have reason to worry. >>IF<< perhaps, she is witholding facts, could it be see something your not considering? Is she witholding to PROTECT YOU, and your marriage, your kids, and (you guessed it) herself? Are the >>possible<< facts being withheld insignificant enough they aren't worth a lion's bite? I'll just take a flying leap and guess that your thought process is, that she's not telling all due to selfish reason's... hmmm? Ya, well that's the little red devil on your shoulder 90% of the time. Give the little white angel on the other side a chance more often and your begin to find some peace with this. You are DEEP in the analysis phase, the one the red devil just LOVES to screw with you about. Stopit!

Keep up the good work man, you guys will get through this. LET your wife help you, it's awfully apparent she's eager and willing.

Last note, if you haven't, do this. Every so often when you find your about to repeat the same questions to your wife for the 800th time, DON'T!! Stick'em in your pocket, go somewhere secluded and get mad. MAD I say! Yell at a tree! Kick a rock! Beat a bush! Jump in a lake... whatever. Just let it out. Then get your composure, go back and play kissypoo with your darling wife. Trust me, it feels GOOD to win (bushes don't fight back)!

M.

Mikkalll - Thanks for the encouragement – I need it. It was still a difficult weekend for me but I had a few good moments. My W was working on Sat. to I decided to take the kids out for a whole day of fun activities – they really enjoyed it. During the day my W called me from work – right before her call I had a few triggers and as a result I monopolized the call by asking her a bunch of detailed questions about the A – she responded to my questions until she had to go. At the end of the day I went with the kids to see her at work and brought dinner. She appreciated the visit and the food. But I wasn’t feeling well – I was very suspicious and I guess that I was looking at her funny and acting funny. She tried her best to be pleasant with me, was smiling, and gave me a nice hug. On Sun. we went to church together and then I took the whole family out to lunch. We went shopping afterwards and then we played a bunch of board games at home with the kids – we had some good moments with the kids and my W. really enjoyed the day.

For me it’s still difficult, I feel that I have a lump in my throat all the time and being pleasant requires a focused effort, it just doesn’t come naturally anymore. I just have this deep sadness within me at all times and it’s really hard to detach myself from it to have a normal or fun day. I have a really hard time concentrating at work and I feel that I haven’t been productive at all since D-Day. Yesterday, even when we were talking to our neighbor outside I started getting suspicious and wondering if my W could have an A with him. I really get paranoid about those things and if my W looks at a man I get very jealous.

This morning we talked in bed, more questions about the A and the timeline of the events. For some reason I feel that I need a complete understanding of the course of events, of their last contact, of what was said or what was emailed. I feel that she tries her best to answer my questions as honestly as she can but I also feel that she doesn’t ‘volunteer’ information. It’s only if I ask that I will get an answer. And in a way that’s what forces me to keep asking questions. She really doesn’t want to talk about the events anymore, she says that when we talk about it she is forced to think about them again and it reminds her how much of a ‘worthless person’ she is. She says that she wants to focus on the present/future, and that she wants to focus on us and our recovery.

I do need to read stories of successful recoveries to make me believe that this is indeed possible. How do people live the rest of their lives with the memory of the A and betrayal? How does the marriage change? Can it indeed be better and more fulfilling than before? I just want to make sure that my hopes are not unrealistic.

Normally I'm very pro-MC. Can be very helpful when communications are blocked. But MC can also be a bit risky. My fear would be that a counselor may want to rock the boat a bit just to keep the fees coming in.

IMHO, since things are going the right direction and you are communicating well, maybe take it easy on the MC route. Can't believe I'm saying that, normally I'm very pro-MC. But I think your situation shows promise, and I have some fears of rocking the boat via MC.

Good luck and God Bless your marriage Asterix.

I have read before, and I think that it was in the book ‘Surviving an Affair’, that you should seek MC when you are ‘stuck’. I think that I have three reasons to seek MC at this point:

1) Everyone tells me that it’s the right thing to do. When I told my best friend about the A, it told me that we needed MC. The first response to my post on this web site was that I needed to focus on getting MC ASAP. At one point I was even worrying that any delay in getting MC would ruin my chances of saving my marriage (see earlier posts). So I definitely felt that there was a sense of urgency there and that our recovery efforts would be doomed to fail without it.

2) My W thinks that we are ‘stuck’ and spinning our wheels right now. This primarily because I have been asking the same questions over and over and perseverating about details for one month. She thinks that my questions are no longer useful in helping us move on. So while she was at first opposed to MC because she felt too embarrassed to talk about these problems in front of a stranger, she is now pro-MC in the hope that it will structure our conversations and enable us to make some progress.

3) Maybe we need some help and facilitation in putting all the issues on the table. First, what led to the A? We both agree that our relationship wasn’t perfect at the time and that there are things that we will need to improve there (meeting ENs, avoiding LBs, rule of time, rule of honesty). But there had to be more there as I assume that no all ‘imperfect’ relationships lead to A (in which case I would assume that 100% of marriages would be affected). What led her to make that decision? Why did she temporarily lose perspective on our marriage, family, and possibly her future to let this happen? What made her violate her ‘boundaries’ and her value system? Does she recognize the mechanics and chain of events that led to it? What is HER plan to prevent this from happening again? I am hoping that the MC can help her clarify those things so that her plan and cognitive skills in recognizing other enablers will be improved.

asterix.. the never ending sadness is not. Neither any of the other negative feelings. It's not hard to explain, not at all, but it is VERY hard for a recent BS to understand.

Eventually you'll find yourself saying "wow, I haven't thought of the A all DAY". Then days, then weeks... I'll be honest, at 14yrs, I can't say I haven't thought about my wifes A for a whole year, might have though.

By the way... I distinctly remember you saying in an earlier post that your wife did volunteer information. Man, that's a LOT to expect let alone get, your lucky.

M.

Oh, last thing. Here's something that helped me. When a trigger hits, or your sitting around feeling sorry for yourself (sorry, I'm a striaght shooter), go do something nice for her. Pick the one of those moments in which the LAST thing you could possibly justify yourself doing is being good to her.. and go overboard with nice, without expecting ANYTHING in return.

asterix - this could be a page out of my book. Your d-day and mine are only 5 days apart. I just wanted to let you know that I totally feel where you are coming from. I have chosen not to ask detailed questions about the A. I just don't see how it will be helpful. Your wife is doing an amazing job. Appreciate her no matter how hard that may seem.

And definitely NO to the email trap. Do not be misled into thinking anything good can come from deception. Think about that for a moment.

asterix,
I talked to my sister-in-law last night who is a psychiatrist and she said that more then 50% still getting divorce after MC. Intuitively I felt that it may release some unwanted emotions so I did not insist. May be you should try IC? I actually go for therapy sessions once a week now. I can not say that I change much now but in the beginning was very helpful. I started it two month after DDay and I regret I did not go right away. Again, your reaction is EXACTLY like mine (you know there are different types of people and we all act differently). I am 3.5 month ahead of you and I guarantee you will feel much better in a month. Of course I still have very difficult moments (quite alot I admit and every day), but at least I am not paranoid anymore and it does not hurt so much. For me right now the problem is that I want romance myself and expect it from my husband which is not realistic.

Gee those numbers really scare me – of course I understand that it’s crazy to expect any ‘guarantees’ but now more than ever I really feel that my marriage is in jeopardy, and probably the rest of my life as well. I just hope that we can work things out, but most importantly I really hope that “I” can move on by forgiving her and focusing on the present and future without torturing us with the past. My own behavior could very well the biggest risk in this recovery.

The email trap is indeed a bad idea and I won’t do it. Anyway it seems that I would be beating a dead horse right now and it would a lot more harm than good. Another bad idea I had was to have an A myself…I won’t do that either as two wrongs won’t make one right – but it was tempting as a form of revenge.

On the ‘romantic’ side I have to admit that my W is doing very well. She is very affectionate, she seeks to be next to me, to hold me, to cuddle with me, to hug me and the SF is much better now than over the last several months and maybe even years. I hope that it will last and that’s it’s not just her temporarily over-compensating for the A.

I am a bit worried about the MC now. But I guess that I can always give it a chance and see how it goes.

On a positive note - I am sure that in a 10-15-20 years we will all just smile about what happened. Can't wait! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MC was very helpful for me. It will really depend on who you go to see. Check out the article below...

How to choose a counselor

Rest assured that everything you are thinking and feeling right now is very normal. You are not going crazy, even if it feels like it. Keep reading and posting here. You can make this work - no matter how impossible it may seem at times.

Remember that love is a verb, not a feeling. Don't get too excited when you feel good. And don't get too despondent when you feel down. Both states are just feelings.

You can get through this.

Any tricks or approach to get the thoughts of your W and the OM together out of your mind???

The mind can only focus fully on one thing at a time. So you simply need to give it another activity that takes a lot of concentration. "Where's Waldo", "Kim's Game" or "I Spy" type activities are great. Can you tell I have kids <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Mine sweeper works great too...

In the absence of access to something like that, simply pick an object and study it in great depth. Even the face of your watch will work.

Or remember the last thing you just did, then the thing you did before that, and then before that....see how much of your day you can replay in as much detail as possible.

For extended periods of concentration, I have found rock climbing (outdoors or climbing gym) to be an excellent way to focus my concentration. Martial arts were another good avenue for me. Any exercise should do. I have also used Go and Chess to similar effect.

The hardest is when I'm driving since that requires enough concentration that I can't focus on something else, but not enough that my mind can't wander. So that's when I turn to my ipod, which has a mixture of music and inspirational books on tape.

One of the reasons I chose not to ask in great detail about the A is that I didn't want to have mental images that would be hard to rid myself of.

I know from prior experience that painful memories fade with time. Concentrate on replacing them with positive ones.

I try to imagine myself surrounded by the conditions I intend to produce.

Asterix,

You asked
Yes, I have a few thoughts. First quit asking your W these questions. Show some impulse control and write them down before you ask them, and then question YOURSELF: Do I already know the answer? How will the answer help me if I don't know the answer? Why do I need to know this?

Write down YOUR answers, and then let it sit for a few days. Then pick a time and discuss with your W what you want to know, why you want to know it, and if it is somehow different from what you ALREADY know.

This is your problem. It is not unique, but you are really trying to punish her it seems rather than trying to gain useful information for you. Do you know why I say this? Because it has been suggested to you before that you write the questions down, carry a small note book if necessary, and you have ignored these suggestions and keep posting the same thing over and over. If nothing changes in YOUR behavior and quest for information, then suprise...NOTHING CHANGES.

You are right you are stuck, but you can unstick yourself, but making sure you have a purpose to your questions and then learning from them. It is clear you are doing neither of these things, thus the strong indication that this is your W of punishing your W.

It sure is not helping you to ask and reask, it is not helping her, so the purpose of the questions is?????

Think about this carefully. Oh, and if you want to have a clue as to why she might of had the affair, look at your current behavior. It is not that you are wrong to feel what you feel. It is not that you don't have a right to ask these questions, you surely do. It is that you are focusing on the wrong things. Do you suppose that happened before her A as well? Think about it.

You are not far out on all of this Asterix, but you are not helping yourself, and in fact you are hurting yourself (which is why I have chimed in with the proverbial 2x4), and you are hurting your W and your chances of being happy with her in the future.

Please think about these things.

God Bless,

JL

PS: The images will fade with time, but only when you quit obsessing about all of this. Your continually asking the same questions leads you to trigger the images. They would be there for sure, but not bringing them to the forefront of your thoughts all of the time will HELP YOU.

You do have a good one. We're all God's children, and we're all flawed. But your WW sounds like a kind loving person who cares deeply about you.

Please take care not to drive her away. Have you apologized to her for your difficulties? Something like "You are a good person and a good wife, and I know it. I'm sorry I'm having such a hard time. Thank you for all you are doing to help me. I know that in time I can get beyond this and we can and will have a better marriage than ever. Please don't give up on me, we can do this together".

I understand your pain. Probably every BS on the board does. It's incredibly difficult, maybe the hardest thing you'll ever do. Even months later I still cry unexpectedly. But it's getting better. I think you can and will get past this. With her help and God's you can do it. God Bless.

First I want to say that I have tried and I am still trying to control my impulses – some days I am more successful than others – but I do understand that making the A the one and only topic of our conversations is detrimental to her comfort level with me and therefore to our recovery. I have tried several different approaches to contain my questions, summarize my understanding, and prevent asking the same things over and over. Once again, it’s not for lack of trying. I think that one of the underlying problems is trust. How can I trust the answers she is giving me? Does she even understand her own emotions and feelings? When I ask her if she understands what led to the affair she will tell me that it’s very complex and cannot really be summarized. She will just tell me that she has learned her lessons and that it will never happen again.

I am even suspicious about the affection that she gives me now. In the timeframe between the A and D-Day, I felt that she was detached, isolated, and depressed. She didn’t seem interested in being close to me or affectionate with me. Then in the last month since D-Day, it’s night and day – she is affectionate, we make love, we talk, she holds my hand, gives me hug, wants me to hold her…It’s a completely different person. This morning I told her that I was wondering why things suddenly changed and I told her that my paranoia had me wonder if she was sincere. She was very hurt by that. Her version is still the same: she was disgusted by what she did, she hated herself because of it, and she thought that if I knew I wouldn’t want to be next to her or touch her. That apparently made it very difficult for her to be close to me or affectionate with me. I also understand that since D-Day my own behavior has changed. I need her to be close to me, I need those hugs and kisses, I need our love making, I have separation anxiety and can’t wait to be with her. So maybe she is responding to my own behavior and needs as well.

I do apologize to her for my behavior and constant questioning; I apologize for splattering my pain all over the place and sharing it with her. I apologize for spoiling our evenings and quality time together by bringing up the A or talking about the darkness of my emotions. She is very understanding and is not mad at me for any of this. She is just reaching a point now where she doesn’t know what to say to help me. Last night, as I was going through another strong anxiety phase, she told me that maybe I should speak to a professional so that I could get some help. It seems that she feels powerless in front of my pain and just doesn’t know what to do or say anymore.

My W suggested that I speak to a priest about what I am currently going through (as I mentioned before she is at a point where she doesn’t know what she can do to help me and she is worried about me). I called the parish this afternoon and I am expecting a call back. Does anyone have experience seeking guidance from a priest in these matters? How has that worked for you? Any recommendations?

Not exactly a priest, but I did do individual counseling for many weeks. And it helped. There was a period when it was more helpful than joint counselling. Joint MC would get angry, or concentrate on little incidents, or go off the track some other way. But with IC I had the opportunity to stay on course and track down the big themes I need to explore.

If you do IC, can I suggest you explore your marriage, and not exclusively her affair? What you want out of your M, what you can do to get it to the place you want it to be...

We also did group MC at a large church. 5 couples, moderated by a church layman. No charge. Very useful for letting off steam and getting great advice, and getting in personal contact with other couples going through similar struggles. If you're interested and happen to live near Chicago let me know, and I'll point you in the right direction for that group. They probably have similar groups elsewhere; probably any of the megachurches around the country these days. Good luck and God Bless.

If I can add a thought; I can see you're really struggling. That's very common. Please do as MB suggests, and work very hard at Plan A and at keeping from hurting her or doing further damage to your M; there is a risk she could be driven away. That would be very sad, as it seems your relationship is fundamentally good.

The priest called me back and saw me yesterday evening. We spoke for over an hour. It was nice to be able to talk to someone about all this and get some encouragement. At the end of our discussion the priest told me that he had a lot of hope for us, he could see that I sincerely loved my wife and that we were both dedicated to solving our marriage problems. He was encouraged by the fact that I not only recognized that my W needed to work on herself but also that WE needed to work together. He motivated me to concentrate on the present and future (serenity prayer) but warned me that it would take time and that I would have to be patient. Reestablishing a friendship, a connection, complicity, and closeness takes a while and has to be approached one day at a time. He was also glad to hear that we were also seeking professional counseling. He gave me hope and I came out of the rectory feeling better than when I went in. When I got home my W wanted to know how things went. I gave her a summary of my conversation – she was obviously moved (in a good way) by some of the things I said. Personally I think that she would also benefit from talking to a priest and getting a more spiritual dimension on this whole thing. Talking to someone would also help her. She is considering it and also trying to make it to confession.

Our evening together was “ok” – we watched our favorite show with the kids, held hands, and cuddled. This morning, I don’t know why but I asked her a couple of questions about the A and the timing of the events. She was not in the mood to talk about this and gave some brief and evasive answers.

Some days, like today, I really feel like I am facing a challenge the size of a mountain. We not only have to recover from the A itself and the destruction that it has caused in trust and honesty, but we also have to deal with all the other problems that we already had before: emotional distance, lack of connection, etc. This morning I really feel overwhelmed by all this and I wonder if I will have the stamina for the journey.

IMO you've got to STOP THAT. You've got to stop the "drive-by" A-questioning! If you've got questions, write them down and put them away for awhile. If they continue to haunt you, and you feel that you MUST have the answers, then let your W know that you want to ask a few questions about the A, then arrange for a time and location to ask them that's comfortable for you both.

This is a good sign! I remember that at some point I realized that I am asking same questions automatically. I felt like I HAVE TO. Then next thing happened and even if I had something on my mind I did not have a desire to say it.

Once I told my husband that I missed him all day and I could see his face lighten up. This is the best proof that he is sincere, not his words. I don't really believe in words. I am sure you can recognize when your wife is saying what she is thinking. So stop killing yourself.

You’re right; no more drive-by questioning. I called her this afternoon and apologized for that. I want her to feel comfortable around me and that’s not the way to go. When I come next to her she never knows if it’s because I want to hug her, tell her something nice, or corner her with a bunch of detailed questions about the A. I will take the advice to heart this time and really make it happen: I will write down my questions and ‘schedule’ a time to discuss those with her – maybe even wait for the counseling sessions to bring them up. I realize that some of my questions are pure impulses; I just feel that I need to ask them right away. If I can stick to writing them down first and then sitting on them for a while, I am sure that the number of questions I “really” want to ask will go down significantly and maybe completely go away over time. I expect that my W’s comfort level around me and the quality of our conversations will significantly improve as a result. I guess that after one month of wild open questioning, it’s time to change the approach.

In her line of work my W has to work a few nights a month. Last night was one of those nights. These are very difficult for me. First I have this crazy suspicion that she may not be at work, so I will call her and talk to her. Hearing the background noise will confirm where she is. Yesterday I called her and ask “Are you at work?”, she said “Of course, where else would I be?”, I said “I don’t know, maybe with someone else”. She then said that if she wanted to be with someone else she wouldn’t be trying to rebuild our marriage and go through what we are going through now. In my heart I know that my current suspicions are not founded but I can’t help those feelings – I am so paranoid. The other problem when she works nights is that I feel so incredibly lonely – I am literally alone with my pain and dark thoughts at night. There is a battle in my head to control my thoughts and prevent myself from drifting into thoughts of their physical relationship and all the deception that surrounded it. It’s literally a war between an invasion of negative thinking and attempts at positive thinking. I keep repeating the serenity prayer to myself for my own sanity. Overall my W is very patient with me, very loving, and very supporting. I just think that she feels powerless in front of my pain. Last night, hearing how sad I was, she was trying to help me develop a strategy for the rest of evening, motivating me to spend some quality time with the kids, watch some TV, maybe journal my emotions on this discussion group, praying, etc. My night was ok: I prayed and watched TV to distract myself until I was so tired I couldn’t keep my eyes open. I woke up very early and called her at work. She was up and talked to me a little bit. She told me that maybe we could cuddle tonight; it’s nice to hear that she wants to be close to me. It has now been a month and a few days since D-Day, I guess that I am doing a little bit better now than I was in the first couple of weeks but I feel that I still have a long way to go. The first counseling session is in a couple of days, I have been looking forward to it.

My husband is on call once a week. This was actually the day when he used to go to OW place. First month after DDay he was coming home at midnight then went back to his normal schedule and it was horrible. I acted like a lunatic and several times drove to the city from the suburb where we live at night just to see if his car was there. Leaving my daughter sleeping alone! I also checked the mileage on his car. Then I started to think that he could take a cab and I actually went through his wallet the day before and after. It is so humiliating for me to feel this way and to do this.
I knew very well that I was acting irrationally but I could not control it. Now I am fine. Last Tuesday I did not have an anxiety at all.
--------------------------
I've read this long time ago:
The psychiatrist has a patient who believes that she swallowed a frog. Not able to reassure her that it is not true the doctor makes her vomit and puts the frog in there.
The woman looks at that and says: 'What if it laid the eggs?'

Does this sound familiar? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Once I left the house for an hour on the weekend while my H was washing his car. When I came back I saw that the mileage was 5 miles higher. I almost fainted. I thought that he drove to the pay phone to call her so I could not check our phone records. I had to ask where did he go and he told me that he drove around the block to warm up the car. Next day the first thing I did was drove the same route to check the mileage. It was exactly 5 miles of course. I felt so embarrassed and angry that I have to go through that. All my live I was proud to be able to compose in any circumstances. Anyway I wrote this so you can see how ridiculous we can be when paranoid. Be patient - you will feel better soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maril – thanks for showing me that I am not the only ‘nut’ out there ;-)
When I put my thinking hat on I realize that my paranoia is no longer justified. The A is over, everything is out in the open, and there is nothing else to be discovered. I will however need to remain vigilant, but obviously there is a big difference between vigilance and paranoia/amateur espionage. This being said I still feel the need to ‘kick the tires’ several times a day: knowing where she is, who she is calling, what she is doing. Hopefully with time, and my trust in her slowly rebuilding, I will be able to go from this state of wacky hyper-vigilance to a more balanced, yet not as naïve, lifestyle.

Just this week my FWW and I scheduled (and had) a conversation about my triggers. When it started she looked scared, worried and defensive.

But I only wanted to apologize for my occasional paranoia and loss of control, and to say that I can tell I'm getting better about the triggers, and will continue getting better. She understood and accepted, said she doesn't blame me for having triggers and is happy that I'm committed to controlling them. It was a positive and upbeat conversation, and a relationship-builder.

Anyway, IMHO. IF you can talk about your triggers and paranoias in the right way (that's the key bit) you can build the relationship. JMHO, your mileage may vary.

Remember that you love her when things get sticky.

Astrix,

Putting your paranoia to rest is a huge step which will inturn ease the urge for questioning.

That is not to say your mind won't still wonder what is she doing? When deep down you know she is where she is suppose to be.

My recommendation would be to make light of it.

Call her on those nights she has to work late and say

"Just a call to say I love and miss you, and to duct tape the mouth of that little voice in my head."

It will get better, and I think you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and no it's not an oncoming train.

By the way I put an end to the idea of the ‘email trap’ (see earlier post) in a ‘radical’ way. I actually told my W about the idea (radical honesty), told her why I had thought about doing it (lack of trust), and told her why I didn’t do it (didn’t think that anything good would come from deception). She wasn’t mad at me for thinking about doing this – not happy about it, but not mad. She just told me that if she had received an email from him, she would have deleted it without reading it; just the same way she handled the previous one. I just wanted this to be an example of the radical honesty contract that I want to establish between us. I felt that I needed to tell her about this email trap idea because it was more than a passing thought, I actually had to convince myself a few times not to send it. I also told her because it illustrates my current mindset regarding trust, so in a way it’s a window (although a dark one) on my feelings and emotions – one that hopefully helps me understand me a bit better right now. Last but not least, telling her about this bad idea killed the idea, it’s now a non-issue.

I have also created a ‘question log’ where I document the questions that I would like to ask her. It’s interesting to see how just writing them down sometimes makes them look silly and worthless. I found myself deleting many of them. One that seems to stick is ‘what led to the A?’, in other words does she understand the mechanics and chain of events that led her to that decision. I did ask her that one before and she keeps telling me that she doesn’t have an answer for me, that it’s a complex ‘thing’, and that she has learned her lessons. That may be an area that the counselor will dig in, I hope so. Other than that the challenge will be to 1) stop the drive-by questioning and sticking to ‘scheduled question times’, and 2) not let each documented questions trigger another 20 undocumented ones which would defeat the purpose. Funny how everything seems to be such a challenge for me these days.

Great idea with the log! On the 'what led to the A'?, I had the same question.

Her first answer: just for an adventure. She was at a convention, re-met an old friend that she'd always had a crush on, had too much to drink, and let herself get carried away. Then continued misbehaving when she returned home.

Her second answer: deeply unmet emotional needs, and long-simmering resentment over the way I'd treated her for many years. Probably that left room in her heart for an A, while the first presented an opportunity for her to take a wrong turn. If I hadn't left room in her heart for an A she likely wouldn't have taken that wrong turn.

My program is to fill her heart with love for me. I think that will work for you too.

Look for "The 15 Stages of Unfaithfullness". If you structure your questions in line with the stages, you should get the answer that you're looking for.

I think that last night I did a pretty good job at providing a comfortable environment. I didn’t bring up the A at all, we enjoyed the kids, read them some stories, then went to bed, cuddled, and even made love. It was a nice conclusion to what had been a difficult day for me. All day, I had consciously fought memories of the A and painful thoughts of them together. It literally comes to the point that I have to tell myself ‘NO’ and barricade those thoughts from my conscience. I also repeated the serenity prayer a few times and prayed. That seems to be working but it is a constant effort and a true personal battle.

ManInMotion – where can I find a copy of the “15 Stages of Unfaithfulness”? I Google it but I am not coming up with anything. Is that something you could send me by any chance?

WeNeedHelp – I do recognize that she had some unmet ENs with me as well (actually we both had some unmet ENs). She had brought those up to my attention a few times before but I think that we didn’t communicate very well and I never really understood what she meant or what she wanted. At some point I think that she told herself that I just didn’t care. As for me I guess that I didn’t get the message and didn’t understand the criticality of her cry for help. As a result, it’s fair to say that we were ‘emotionally disconnected’ for a long period of time before the A and she felt lonely and not close to me at that time (note that she has never used this as an excuse for what happened – at least not explicitly). I understand that this must be a focus area for both of us and I will do my part here. Aside from getting over the A itself, this will be one of our most important challenges going forward. This being said, at some point, she ‘made the decision’ to have an A. I put the phrase “made the decision” between quotes because I don’t think that it was necessarily a ‘decision’ per se, at least not a well thought out one or a conscious one. She will indeed admit that she “was not doing a lot of thinking at the time”. But the bottom line is that SHE DID IT. That is also what I want to understand – what made her take that step? After the first kiss, what didn’t she stop (led to two weeks of ‘office romance’)? After the first night of sex, why didn’t she stop (led to 3 nights in a hotel while on a business trip)? Basically what I am saying is that I understand that WE have to work on a certain number of things together but SHE also has to understand why she let herself have an A. Do all people with unmet ENs have affairs? Are unmet ENs a necessary and sufficient condition to have an A? If that was the case, wouldn’t 100% of married people out there have extra-marital relationships? Don’t we have to understand this to prevent re-occurrence?

Kudos to you asterix. Very very well done. I understand the constant battle, but please have faith that in a few weeks the battle will be less constant, and then continue to diminish over time. I've been surprised at how quickly we've been able to rebuild our relationship, including love, intimacy, and even some trust.


I relate to every single word in your post. I think I can really understand where you are with this. Unfortunately, I don't know the answers. Not much experience really, just 9 months of pain, reading, talking, scanning posts on MB...

With those caveats, here are my guesses. Are unmet ENs are necessary for an A? Depends on the person. Some people just do it. In my case (and yours I think) I am blessed with a wife who is truly a good person. Kind, caring, loving, and a wonderful wife and mother. I don't think she would have had an A if I had been the perfect husband to her.

My recent deep commitment to her has, I think, had a strong impact on her. I did not make that commitment in order to affair-proof our marriage, rather I came to see that I am called to be as good a husband as I can be. However. If one side effect should be that our M will be affair-proof, I won't object.

Why don't they stop once started with that first meeting of the eyes, or first kiss, or first sexual activity, (or the 10th)? That's a tough one. In some cases it may be that the WW loves the OM. In other cases OM may meet unmet ENs. Or sometimes sexual needs. Or some - as in my case I think - may continue just because it's fun and exciting. After 13 years of M to me, she was probably ready for something different.

Related question: Why do they stop? I'll leave that one to the Harleys. But in my case, mine stopped when she came to realize that I could not continue to be married to her in that condition. If I hadn't reached that stage, she may have continued for a long time.

All this is JMHO of course. I'll add a thought about other conditions that may have contributed: In my case, my FWW's parents and siblings have had a nonnegligible amount of experience with A's. (e.g. her father - who is truly a wonderful person - had an A many years ago). I think that prior exposure may have made it possible for my FWW to conceive of an A as being on the menu for her. One other thing to mention: FWW had had a couple of health scares, and the realization of mortality may have had an impact as well. And another; she didn't have much fun in/after college, and probably felt deprived and due for some sexual experiences.

'Sufficient'. Hmm. I don't know if anything is either necessary or sufficient. There seems to be a lot of randomness. Start with some environmental conditions that may make an A conceivable (failure to have ENs met, family history, knowledge of friends involved in an A, mutual attraction..), add some stimulation, also maybe the right opportunity, and maybe - or maybe not - you get the affair.

Personally I avoid those kinds of environmental conditions where I can. E.g. there are some women I am attracted to, and because of that avoid. I just don't want to get close to women I'm attracted to. Can be a friend to most women, but not that kind. (It can be kind of awkward, but I'll pay that price).

Anyway. IMHO it's pretty random. But still there's a deterministic element that you can influence. I think your heart (also your wife's heart) is right, and you understand. Because of that I think you will succeed. You know there is a serious need for you to build, build, build your new better relationship with your wife. For me, and for you I think, it is entirely feasible to end up with a M that is better than before. That's my wish for you.

(I guess you have some mathematical background? One doesn't see 'necessary and sufficient' too often.)

I'll venture to say that the necessary and sufficient come from a philosophy background ;-)

IMO, unmet ENs are necessary but not sufficient to cause an A. There is always a moment betweens stimulus and response where you choose.

Exhibit #1: Me. I have had unmet EN's but have not chosen to have an A.

Exhibit #2: My FWW. She had unmet EN's and chose to have an A.

Exhibit #3: (unknown) Can someone provide an example of a person whose ENs were consistently met in every regard, yet still chose to have an A?

I suspect such an individual cannot be found. If I am correct, then unmet EN's are necessary but not sufficient.

.

Hi there, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. I found out during Feb'06 and nothing has been the same since. My emotions are playing roller coaster with me at this stage and I suppose that is not helping much to restore anything. I am currently struggling with anger and would like to know if you took any legal action against the other male and/or if provision is made in the law at all if one is not contemplating DV

Intention – thanks for the breakdown. You’re probably right, unmet ENs are a necessary condition but do not always lead to an A, therefore they are not a necessary and sufficient condition. My W still tells me that she does not understand why she did it, sometimes she won’t even acknowledge that she had unmet ENs, or at least not enough unmet ENs to justify what she did. Then when I ask her why she had the A, her only answer is always ‘I don’t know’, ‘I don’t have an answer for you’, or ‘I just liked spending time with him’. I can't tell you how frustrating it is for me to hear that. Part of me thinks, "look you have had 7 months to think about this before you told me, don't you understand why it happened???". So then she brings up the MC and tells me that maybe, with his guidance, she will be able to formulate an answer that satisfies me... I have the feeling that I shouldn't hold my breath. (I am sure you can tell the type of mood I am in right now)

Of course I am going with the assumption that understanding WHY (which unmet ENs, and what else played a factor) it happened -and obviously addressing that- will help prevent re-occurrence. Is that a valid assumption? If we just focus on meeting the ENs and ignore the other factors, are we only addressing part of the problem?

Your W does not have a compelling interest to really understand why she did it. She'd rather move on and not constantly be forced to relive something that has caused her guilt and shame. I think my FWW is in the same boat. For her, it happened so long ago that she doesn't care to remember.

You obviously have a sharp mind that likes solving problems. So for you, this is the most important problem you could have - to understand why it happened so you can establish the conditions that will prevent it from recurring. So yes, your assumption is valid. I'm in the same boat.

MC will really help you guys with that. My FWW did not feel supported because I tried to solve problems, instead of simply validating her feelings and showing empathy.

When she confided that she was worried about being pregnant so early into our marriage, my response was to compensate with excessive optimism. I told her everything would be alright. I tried to solve her problem. She did not want to hear that. She wanted me to validate her anxiety, echo her fears back to her, to really feel understood. I did not know how to do that.

Asterix - You asked about the 15 steps of unfaithfulness. It is a post here. See this link: 15 Steps

I think yes and yes. No guarantees, but it will make a re-occurrence much less likely. Another part of the problem is to show her you are fully dedicated to making a beautiful life for her, whether or not she makes an enormous mistake (such as her A). She needs to know that she will be able to look back in 50 years and feel that she was loved with all your heart. When she understands that, then she will be unlikely to make a mistake like that again.

I have just been through an interesting weekend. Saturday didn’t start very well: we talked about the A, we argued, I was feeling sad and depressed. Then something happened…the OM called my house…

He talked about the destruction in his marriage (his W won’t talk to him anymore and is completely changing the career plans that they had, he is afraid he won’t get to see his kids anymore, he is worried about his own career and his reputation, his W accuses him of having other A’s, etc.), he was obviously upset that I had called her to let her know about the A (he told me that she didn’t want to know about it, that she is the true victim in this, that I shouldn’t have shared so many details, etc.). Then at the same time he was apologizing about what happened, told me that what they did was very selfish, that for him this was an ‘ego booster’ because he was supposedly having problems in his M at the time, etc. Then he went with his version of the facts again: he didn’t want to talk to my W after the events, my W was the one calling him, my W was the one trying to find opportunities for them to be together as well, he is the one who ‘broke it up’, etc – all things that my W still denies: she will say that she would call him but he would call her as well and that he never said anything about not wanting to talk to her, he is the one who brought up the idea of a conference they could both attend, etc. The OM also kind of asked me if I was trying to work things out with my W, etc. He kept asking me ‘What do you want to know?’ – I told him that I already knew everything. Obviously he is pissed off that I called his W and even more pissed off that my W told me about the A (he said that he was planning to take the secret to his grave). He is seeing the destruction that this has caused in his relationship and possibly his livelihood and he is very upset about that - understandably. I get the feeling that he is more pissed off about these things than he is about having had an A in the first place. Maybe he still hasn’t accepted the fact that HE is responsible (as well as my W) for what happened. My talking to his W about it was a mere consequence of his mistake and I told him that. I don’t think that he had good intentions for calling me – since he is seeing his life being destroyed I get the feeling that he wanted to kick the tires at my place and make sure that my W was not getting off easy – even if he had to give me ‘his version’ to make things worse. When my W realized that it was him on the phone she kept telling me to hang up, she kept saying that I didn’t need to talk to him and to tell him never to call us again, and never to bother us again.

When the call ended I was shaking uncontrollably, literally in shock. My W took me in her arms, hugged me, and kissed me. She told me that she was so sorry about this, that she had no idea that he would ever call us again. We hugged for a while, she comforted me, and I felt better – emotionally drained but better. Actually this call ended up being a turning point in the day – afterwards I felt much more affectionate towards my W, we were closer, almost as if we had just been a ‘team’ and fought together against an external force.

Then later that day we went to our first counseling session…

The first session went well. The MC really didn’t spend a lot of time talking about the A (just a few questions to clarify the timeframes and current status), he focused on our relationship in the months and years leading to the A, and our relationship in this post-A period. He got us to talk about our unmet ENs at the time and how they made us feel. A few times my W got emotional but overall it went well. He gave us a couple of articles to review. It seems that his ‘philosophy’ about this revolves around the concepts of ‘distancer/pursuer’ – at least that was the topic of the article he gave us. I read the article but I don’t really understand the concept yet, I will try to find more Web resources maybe. On Thursday he will meet with my W one on one, then he will meet one on one with me on Saturday. The following week we will be back in counseling together. Overall my W and I felt that it could help, I still don’t know if it will make a difference or not, and if he is the right person to help us out. I guess that time will tell.

Have any of you been exposed to those concepts of ‘pursuer/distancer’. Any thoughts?

I have no concept of pursuer/distancer but I wanted to make a comment here.

You asked why your wife chose to make that first step I believe earlier.

Well, in my first marriage, I was the WW. For me, and I can only speak for me- my needs were unmet for so long they were basically screaming. So, when someone came along that was willing to meet those needs- I was hooked. It was like a high. In turn, I felt the only way to keep up the steady flow of getting my "fix" was to have sex with this person. For me, it wasn't sex but yet I knew if I didn't have sex with the OM, he wasn't likely to stay around and meet my needs for very long. Totally wrong all the way around but without a doubt if my needs were being met within the marriage I would have been less likely to fall to temptation.

Wow, that's a lot to go through. I can't imagine talking to OM, I would be too angry. Seems like you're handling it well though. Keep up with the MC/IC.

Have you asked your W why she wanted to to hang up? I tried to contact OMGF at one point and her reaction clearly told me that the OM was pressuring her to avoid any contact with me. I got the clear impression that the story he told her about the A differed greatly from the story I got from my FWW, and there's no question who I'm inclined to believe more.



Seems like your FWW is firmly on board with recovering with you. I help but contrast it to my situation, which seems more and more depressing whenever I compare it to encouraging situations like yours. I think the recovery of your M is going to go very well.

I didn't really have to ask. She saw the effect that the conversation was having on me and the pain it was causing me. She also knew that his intentions in calling me could not be good; she wanted him to leave us alone. Indeed why would he call now? He's seeing his life fall apart and he is angry. Angry at my W for having told me about the A and angry at me for having told his W. He sprinkled some apologies in there for the form but that was not the purpose of his call.

I am still shaken by this call. Last night I had a nightmare in which my W called him because she missed him. In the nightmare she had this funny smile on her face when she would talk about him and I knew that the A wasn't really over, at least not the emotional part of it. In the nightmare I was very angry and threw some salt in her face (don't ask me what a salt shaker was doing in the nightmare...). I woke up around 5:00AM, shaken by this nightmare. I told my W about it. She held me in her arms and told me that everything would work out. It did take me a while to calm down afterwards but she was there for me.



Thanks I really appreciate comments like these. I do indeed feel that, given the circumstances, my W's behavior and attitude is ideal. She is going to counseling with me and seems to think that it will help us. She is very affectionate and seems genuinely committed to our recovery. She tells me that she had has faith in us and that we still have a beautiful life to live together. I find that we are doing a good job at motivating each other and supporting each other, specifically when one's morale is down. Yesterday she was even saying that things are going better between us now than they have in a long time. In a strange way, I think that this crisis has forced us to refocus on each other, express our love for each other, and obviously what better testimony of our commitment to each other than trying to work things out and survive the A together. Another thing made me happy this weekend. She told me that she wanted to come along on one of my next business trips to Europe. It’s the first time that she proposes something like this in my years of traveling. I am really excited and I hope that we can make it happen. We love our kids but we also do have to spend some quality time with each other – that would be a great opportunity to do so.

I do feel that we still have a long way to go but I am also hopeful. We have quite a challenge in front of us. Let alone getting over the A, understanding and addressing the issues that we were facing before the A will not be easy but we have to succeed. We also need to establish new dynamics in our couple, probably based on improvements in communication, so that we can better adapt over time, as our needs change. I still feel overwhelmed when I think about all this and I have to learn to be patient. Hopefully we are going about this the right way and we can be a recovery success story. I pray every day that God can bless our marriage, give us the strength, discipline, patience, and love to rebuild our marriage and make it stronger than ever. I hope that my prayers will be heard. We need all the help we can get.

I understand what you are saying. I think that if our needs are not being met it is our duty to communicate them to our spouse in a way that is meaningful to them, and ensure that they get the message - even if it requires us to try different strategies over time. The worst thing we can do is betray them by seeking to have those ENs fulfilled by someone else. We can also look at the ENs of our spouse, do we know what they are? Are those met to their satisfaction? Is it possible that their unmet ENs are making it difficult, or impossible, for them to meet our ENs? I think that if we are successful in communicating our ENs, and successful in understanding and meeting the ENs of the spouse, then we can have a good marriage - provided that we understand that this is a continuous process and one can never rest on their laurels - as needs change and evolve as we, ourselves, change and evolve.

This is where I think that my W and I failed. She tried to communicate her unmet ENs but not in a way that was meaningful to me, not in a way that ensured that I got the message loud and clear - and sure enough I didn't get it. Likewise my unmet ENs were such that it made it very difficult for me to be the H that she wanted. In a way we were both very selfish - focusing on our OWN unmet ENs. When I think about it the only difference between us is the fact that she had the A, but maybe I was as likely as she was to have one myself. We needed to tango and we were just line dancing (probably not even to the same beat)... We need to learn to tango now.

Yes, I totally agree. I tried to communicate those needs- clearly, loudly- asked for counseling, filled out the EN's questionaires- which he threw away. I still shouldn't have had an affair, but I certainly began to feel that he just wasn't listening to me. Listen, when you tell your spouse- "Start spending more time at home and invest in this marriage or I will either leave you or end up having an affair" I think you're pretty clear. That was my last ditch effort to shock him into action.

I also asked him what his needs were that I wasn't meeting or how could I go about being a better wife. I asked him to fill out EN questionaires- and his got thrown away as well.

Another tough day for me yesterday. I focused all day on the timeframe of the A. My W originally told me that the ‘fooling around’ had lasted 1 to 2 weeks prior to the week of sex they had. When we were at the counselor she said that the ‘fooling around’ lasted a ‘few’ weeks. When I asked her again she said that she doesn’t recall saying ‘1 to 2’ weeks, that it apparently lasted a ‘few’ weeks, less than a month, but she doesn’t know exactly when it started. Yesterday I was thinking about that all day, wanting to ask her again when this whole thing started. I added a few questions to my ‘log’ and then I called her. I asked her what format she would feel comfortable with for me to ask those questions – I suggested a scheduled sit-down, or an email, or whatever else she would feel most comfortable with. She just told me “I don’t know”, she simply doesn’t want to have to talk about this and I know that it’s going to cause some stress if I bring up those questions. I feel stuck.

On my way home last night I spoke to my best friend about this. He is worried about me and concerned that I am perseverating so much on those details – he is telling me that I am going to make myself sick, that I am my ‘worst enemy’. We kind of agreed that I should wait for my one-on-one counseling session this coming Saturday and bring this up with the counselor. I was so stressed out and wired about all this. I then remembered the suggestion from someone on MB who told me that in his most difficult times he tries to do something nice for his FWW. I followed that advice and bought my W some flowers to ‘celebrate the first day of spring’. When I got home my W could see that I was not ‘well’. The rest of the evening she tried to comfort me, she would come next to me, put her head on my shoulder and try to be very nice to me. She told me that she loved me and that I wouldn’t be disappointed again if I chose to spend the rest of my life with her. Little by little my level of stress went down and I was able to avoid the topic of the A all night – I didn’t ask any of the questions.

This morning I am still haunted by the same questions. It takes so much out of me to have to sit on those questions and I don’t even know when I will be able to ask them. My W keeps suggesting that I bring the questions with us at the next counseling session. I think that it might be her way of either delaying my asking them or maybe she hopes that the counselor will just tell me that those questions don’t help anything – and like that she would have an ally, another person to try to convince me that my questions serve no purpose. I just don’t know what to do. Should I force the issue of these questions and really try to find a place and time where I can ask them, or should I just sit on them indefinitely?

asterix, I believe that those types of questions are haunting you because you badly want to feel that you can trust your W again, so any, ANY, suggestion that she's not being *absolutely* truthful with you about the A is going to get you into that frame of mind. At this point you can push for more details about the A again, or you can understand *why* you are pushing for more details and act accordingly.

I took the former approach and it's not working out well for me.

Here's what WH had to say in SAA about discussing the A during recovery:

"Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage. Every time the affair is mentioned, love units are withdrawn from both Love Banks. So the less time spent talking about the affair, the better. The couple is already painfully aware of the mistakes they made and there's no value in being reminded of what they already know.

The goal of marital recovery is to deposit enough love units for the Love Banks of both spouses to overflow. The reconciled couple must learn how to build a new lifestyle that deposits those love units and avoids their withdrawal."

ManInMotion – yes, I know that you are right but it is so incredibly difficult for me to avoid pushing for more details. I really struggle on a daily basis, my ‘question log’ is growing and it is a personal battle to avoid the topic when I speak with my W.

Asking questions is maybe a way for me to get control back, over a period of my life when I was being betrayed and lied to. Right now, as before, she is making the decisions about what to tell me and what not to tell me. She has all the pieces of the puzzle and will only give those that she thinks are relevant. It is her decision that I have ‘enough of the picture’ and that the additional pieces will not add to my understanding. Asking for more details is also maybe a way to prevent anything else from surfacing again down the road and make me feel powerless and stupid again. Some of the changes I see in my W’s story (e.g. ‘from 1 to 2 weeks’ to ‘a few weeks – less than a month’) are also reinforcing my need to obsess about those details – as if there was more to discover, more lies to uncover, more to the story.

I will keep trying though but I am really obsessing about this. This morning I wrote her a long email about all this and my need to know more. I even included a copy of my question log. After reading your post I decided not to send it. Maybe I should just talk to the counselor about this – I just don’t know what to do.

Asterix, that all sounds VERY familiar. If you talk to my FWW now, you'd find out that all of my "grilling" her for details of the A was probably love-busting activity in the extreme. Not only was she reminded of her shameful activity, but she also felt that I was on the search for the one final detail to convince myself that our M was not saving. This is not the kind of activity that you want to do during recovery of your M.

I suggest talking to the counselor instead. We unfortunately do not have that option, and there's no-one else that I can turn to. And talking to my FWW is sometimes a bit like walking through a minefield <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

I feel exactly the same. It is not about trust at all. I think it will start getting better at some point when it faints in our memory or when life will prove that is not so important. If you think about it - we already know that we were betrayed. Luckily our WS feel bad for whatever reason. All little details should not make a difference. Our mind (which is so similar) could not agree with the fact that we were not in control of OUR(THEIR?) lives <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I think it is really our problem I just don't know what to do. I should post my story separately.

Ok I have the feeling that I really F’up today. I called my W before lunch. I was feeling terrible, pacing back and forth in my office, unable to concentrate. I had written a long email for her then deleted it. I really needed to talk to someone and decided to call her at work. At first I basically talked about my state of mind, my anxieties, and everything else – then I caved in and started asking her questions about the timeframe of the A. She just couldn’t give me a clear answer as to when it started. She could just tell me
‘some time in May’. I was asking first half of the month or second half of the month? She couldn’t say. I was trying to remember events from that month and asking her if things were already going on at those times and once again she couldn’t say. At one point she got fed up and just told me to assume May 1st if I wanted like that it would cover the whole month. Bottom line we were not getting anywhere and then she had to go. After that chat I just had to get out of the office, I took my car, got some fast food, and drove around for 30 minutes, just to clear my head.

A couple of hours after I got back I wanted to call her again. She picked up. I tried to rationalize why I was asking to questions and why they were meaningful to me. I told her that I was obsessing about the changes in her story. On D-Day she told that she had an affair and that it lasted ‘a couple of days’, then a few days later she told me that they had their first kiss ‘1 to 2 weeks earlier’ and came to find out that they slept together ‘3 days in a row’ + the morning of the fourth day if I want to be technical. Then during the counseling session she told the counselor that the affair had been going on ‘a few weeks’ before the sex happened. She is now telling me that she doesn’t even know when it started exactly and can just give me the month….This drives me absolutely crazy!!! Her rationale for all this is that on D-Day she told me the ‘worst part’, i.e. the sex. Then she says that she never remembered saying ‘1 to 2 weeks’, that she had always said ‘a few weeks’ – believe me I DO REMEMBER WHAT SHE SAID – I WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER IT. And now this inability to tell me exactly when it started just drives me up the walls. From there it escalated, as you can tell I was pretty wired at that point. I said things like ‘how come you can’t remember when you betrayed me and jeopardized your marriage’, ‘how come you can’t remember when you cheated on me’, ‘why didn’t you want to tell me about the whole affair on D-Day and decided to minimize the duration to the ‘worst part’’, it went on and on and on. She was starting to get really upset and kept telling me that I should prepare my list of questions and that we should only discuss it in front of the counselor, that maybe he could facilitate the questioning and make sure that I get an answer that satisfies me. She kept telling me that I wasn’t listening to her, that her answers never seemed good enough, etc. Then at one point she started crying….I just didn’t know what to do. While crying she would tell me that she felt like s…, asking me why I kept bringing this stuff up if I was so committed to our recovery, asking to decide ‘what I really wanted to know’ because she couldn’t go on like this and be questioned all the time, that she didn’t have the energy to go through her day after sessions like these, etc. Man, it was bad----then I had to go.

Now I feel like s…, I just don’t know what to do, I am simply lost. Maybe I should just be on meds.

asterix - what you are doing is NOT healthy and you are seriously jeapordizing your chances of recovery. Cut it out. Put yourself in your W's shoes for a moment. No matter how inconceivable it might be to you - just imagine you did something shameful. Now imagine your W probing over and over and over again.

What you are doing is destructive. Your wife is being very reasonable to offer to answer the questions in MC.

Apologize to her.

intention - it is really easier to say then to do. Reading different posts here I realize that there are very few people like asterix (including me). I don't know too how to deal with that. I am going to IC for a three month now but can't say that it added much to what I already knew about myself. I was always very possessive - I was jealous of my dog when he loved our friend. My husband is a psychiatrist and he understands what happens in my head. He already gave me so many details of the A that I would die if person I was intimate with said to anyone. Still I have more questions about what was said and what was done every minute they were together. It seems that it is never enough. My doctor is not in favor of behavior therapy but I think may be that would help. I was also thinking about medication but I don't know what do I need - antidepressant or antianxiety - I feel both. My doctor mentioned antipsychotic meds - I will ask him again tomorrow. I wish I could just turn the switch off. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
asterix - hang on, you are not alone. I know we will make it - it just takes so-o long. I am afraid that it will hurt my M and my love(?) to my H and his love(?) to me.

Yes you’re right, it’s not healthy. Believe me I am not proud for behaving like this, nor do I think that it’s ok. I followed your advice and called her to apologize; she was happy to hear from me and told me she loved me. She told me that she was not afraid of the ‘questions’ but of the ‘questioning’. Basically she is worried that what she will say will set me off, that her answers will trigger another 100 sub-questions, she feels the anger in my voice and in my body-language, and she is basically not comfortable when we talk about it. She brings back the angry outburst (see post #2942364) and the times it told her not to come back home (see post #2958361) – she is afraid that something she would say could trigger the same reactions. She told me that as soon as I told her about my list of questions she got worried as she felt that she would be questioned again. She told me that she was even having some second thoughts about our trip to Europe (see post #2969692) because she may be cornered with some questions there and it may end up being like our last trip with the kids (see post #2950071). Bottom line I will ‘try’ to stick to the plan of bringing those questions to the MC. Obviously the fact of asking questions is really loaded right now and associated with a lot of trauma – keeping a lid on it for a while longer is probably a very good idea.

What worries me is that she is already having a very hard time with the questions now. I hear that recovery takes months, sometimes years, and that the BS often has relapses during that period, times where they pick at the details of the A again. I wonder if my W will have the patience and stamina to support me through this.

I also need to have a sounding board, someone I can blow off some steam with. This site has been great but doesn’t replace interacting with someone. The key is that I should avoid calling my W when I am in a certain state of mind, it only leads to stress and aggravation. Maybe I will dump on my best friend…

You did not do that yet? My cell phone bills were $300 for two month after DDay - I spent so much time with my friend who stopped me from leaving. I also have a male friend at work who just says 'Poor girl' to me and explains to me the theory about testosterone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Also, every time your W gives you more details about the A tell her how MUCH you appreciate it and how this will speed the process. Tell her that if you don't know EVERYTHING you will imagine the best/worst Hollywood romance made ever <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Tell her if she withholds any info that makes you feel that it is sacred to her. I am sorry for saying 'tell' all the time. That's what I do but you may feel different.

maril - yes, easier said than done, I know, trust me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am not suggesting it is easy. In fact I will submit this is the hardest thing you or asterix or I have ever had to do.

asterix - I don't mean to be harsh with you. Think of it as tough love. Good for you for calling to apologize. And dump here, often. We are here for you. Dump on us, not your W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


No need to try, simply choose to follow through with your decision not to ask questions in a manner that is LB with your W. Give her permission to let you know when you are going against whatever POJA you set up with her. She becomes your ally. Empower her to help you through this.

Thanks again for your recommendations. Last evening I was expecting the worse as she had been crying in the afternoon. But she came home from work and she was nice. She invited me to come and sit next to her on the couch, she invited me to come play with the kids, and she would touch me, be gentle with me. As for me I have to admit that I was distant, not too interested in ‘cuddling’ and actually felt like isolating myself (that may be the distancer/pursuer dynamic that my MC was referring to). When it came time to go to bed I was still pretty ‘wired’ – everything, including the kids, was stressing me out. She was once again very nice with me, she held me, caressed me, and tried her best to calm me down.

I have to admit that her behavior really surprised me. After some of the tough conversations that we had in the afternoon I would have expected her to be distant and detached, emotionally and physically drained, without any energy to give me any attention. But that wasn’t the case. I am sure that she was exhausted but she is really trying very hard to make me happy and help me through this. It must not be easy. I have the feeling that I am basically turning into a nut case and it must be very difficult to live with me right now. Once again, I think that (given the circumstances) I really couldn’t ask for better support from her. I think that I have to keep repeating this to myself and still count my blessings in this very dark phase of my life.

I still feel that I am my worst enemy in all this. I have little control over my feelings and emotions and they have a huge effect on my moods, body language, and behavior. I realize that through my questions or my way of asking them I am trying to punish her. That’s not going to help us.

This evening she has her one-on-one session with the MC. On Saturday it’s my turn.

I think your wife probably feels your continued questioning is meant to somehow catch her in a lie or something. While she has answered your questions, it makes her feel shameful to do so, and she's probably afraid she'll make a mistake and not say something originally exactly the same way as she said it before and then you won't believe her.

She's a keeper, and while yes she did cheat, I believe she's doing her best to make this situation work. I'm concerned that you're going to drive her away with your repeated badgering.

She needs to feel safe in order to answer your questions. She can't if it's going to cause this kind of situation every time.

I know you're in pain and you want to lash out and punish her but this will not help you recover.

Keep venting here, stay busy and also find a friend IRL you can lean on.

My questioning must indeed feel a lot more like a witness cross-examination than a friendly chat. Often it will turn into:
Me: “How long did the A last?”
Her: “I already told you a few weeks”
Me: “A few weeks? You originally said 1 to 2 weeks”
Her: “I don’t recall saying 1 to 2 weeks, I always said a few weeks”
Me: “No you didn’t, I remember exactly what you said”
Me: “So, why would you say 1 to 2 weeks if it was more?”
Her: <No Answer>
Me: “So, what’s a few weeks? 2, 3, 4 – more than a month?”
Her: “It started some time in May”
Me: “When in May?”
Her: “I don’t know when”
Me: “First half of the month or second half of the month?”
Her: “I don’t know”
Me: “How come you don’t know, don’t you remember when something this significant happened?”
<You get the idea…>

I don’t know if I am at the risk of ‘driving her away’ as she understands that this is part of the process. But I am definitely at the risk of delaying the recovery and making the recovery process a lot more difficult that it could be.

This morning I updated my question log and I will discuss this topic with the MC. Including the MC in this may make her feel more comfortable and get me the answers I am looking for, i.e. Win-Win.

Why would you ask her something though that she has already answered several times???

I think it would be a good idea to keep a journal about what you're asking and when so that you can see how often you're asking and such- if you're already not doing that.

Asterix,

I would strongly recommend that you go to a Doc, and get something like Welbutrin (sp?) which is an anti-anxiety drug. You need it. You are missing some very important points and it may cost you the marriage.

First point, no matter what you do or don't find out, that period of your marriage and your W's decisions won't change.

Second point, the time you are focusing on your questioning, is time NOT spend on rebuilding and worse not checking to see if things are on the up and up NOW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Third point, if you are not checking now, if you are not working on recovery you will miss the window of opportunity for rebuilding your marriage. You feel your W OWES you something. She doesn't! She can divorce you now, later, or whenever. This is NOT strickly your call and you had better realize this soon. She has already had an affair suggesting that your marriage was NOT all that strong then. Your approach to rebuilding thus far is NOT strenghtening your marriage now.

YOU have a decision to make. Either you want OUT, or you want to stay in the marriage. Your call totally. Make the call and then act. IF you want out, you don't need to ask any more questions. If you want in the only questions you need to be asking NOW are how can I make the marriage better.

Son, it is THAT simple. Now there is something you should know NOW. There is a huge difference between simple and easy and you had better understand the difference.

You cannot expect to punish your W back into loving you or remaining in the marriage. THat is HER call are you providing good reasons for her to want to stay? I don't think so.

Your anxiety about not knowing the truth guarentees, that you will miss the truth when it is presented to you. The truth comes in many little things, words, deeds, decisions, etc. If your focus in on the NEXT question, you will miss the truth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Shut down the questioning, and start watching, listening, and being aware of what is going on around you. Your gut will let you know the TRUTH in due time, IF you will calm down and pay attention.

Oh! What will you learn if she could answer all of your questions with great precision? That she lied? You know that. That she had sexual relations with another man? You know that. That she felt he was better or worse in bed? You DON'T need to know that. That she does not want to go back to that time and place? You know that. That she would prefer to forget, and not recall the gruesome details? You know she does not want to.

Could she be lying to you now? Well, if she is her actions will NOT match her deeds in the future. If she is not, your questions offer no information either.

Go see the Doc. You need some short term help.

God Bless,

JL

JL - are you are a sage. This helps my own situation so much.

Asterix - listen to this wise advice.

me - listen to this wise advice.

JL – quite a bit of information – thank you for taking the time to contribute – I appreciate it. I like your ‘tough love’ approach, it is probably what I need right now. I need to stop feeling sorry for myself and channel my anger/frustration/resentment into something that is more constructive. There has been enough destruction before the A and after the A.

You make very valid points – I realize that. I don’t know if I need medication or not, nor do I know what I can expect from being under medication. What will it do for me?. Will I feel like a zombie? Will it just numb my senses? Is that really advisable at this stage? I can ask the MC on Saturday and see what he thinks about that.

The questioning and the focus on past events clearly take energy away from ‘rebuilding’ the M. It drains me and it drains her and it drives us apart. Yesterday afternoon I asked myself the question “Should we stay together or should we separate?”. I listed the pros and cons of each situation on a piece of paper. From my point of view I clearly saw that there was a lot more in it for ‘me’ by staying with her, the only cons being ‘risks’ (e.g. she will betray me again, in the end the M will not work out, etc.). On the other hand most of the pros were ‘facts’ (e.g. it will give us a chance to rebuild, it will be less devastating to the kids and our families, we can limit the devastation of this A, etc.). So all in all I feel confident with my decision to ‘stay’. But I have to confess that I am starting to wonder if I still ‘really love her’. That’s a whole other story, maybe for another post…

So bottom line I get your message: get some meds, stop the questions, don’t try to punish her, she doesn’t owe me anything, focus on rebuilding. What is she supposed to do?

I believe Wellbutrin is for depression and not anxiety. Anxiety drugs are like Paxil, Effexor, Lexapro, Celexa and Zoloft.

Medication for anxiety will calm down your obsessive thoughts if they work well. You shouldn't be a zombie either with the correct medications. It just helps you to concentrate and get focus- not obsess etc. I'm not a doctor but I've been on anxiety meds and I know what it helps for me.

As for what she is to do?? I believe she's doing her best. She's been loving and attentive, she's listened to you yell and be ugly to her about it. She's spent many phone calls and e mails explaining herself to you- she's answered your questions. She's making every attempt at recovery as far as what you've posted.

What else could she do?

She cannot make the affair go away. I know that she would if she could- because I've been there. She'll probably never fully get over the guilt. Yet, there is nothing she can do to erase it no matter what.

I have had some experience with Zoloft when I was treated for panic attacks, along with cognitive behavior therapy (CBT). The situation was different back then, so I don’t know if it could help again or not – I will talk to the MC and go from there. I am not anti-meds per se, but I don’t want to be in a situation where I manage my problems by popping a pill – provided that those symptoms are even due to a chemical imbalance. I think that that’s why I like the CBT approach more back then.

When it comes to surviving the A, there are things that I am doing better and things that I still need to work on.

The questioning is more controlled now than it was in the early phase. I would rate it as ‘improving’. I am more patient, and most importantly more considerate of her feelings on the topic. I have also developed a much better appreciation for the right place, right time, and right mood aspects of the context. Not that it’s exemplary but it’s getting better and I think that it will rapidly become a non-issue.

One thing that I am not proud of is my ‘acting’. When I am in bed with her, in the morning or evening, I will act anxious, stressed, depressed, sad, panicky – not that I don’t feel like that but I will literally bring it to a theatrical level that she just can’t ignore – so that she will be affectionate with me, will give me attention, and will try to comfort me. I guess it’s a way to make her feel sorry for me but also to punish her by reminding her of what I am going through because of her. I would put in the same category the arguments that I try to start when she is about to fall asleep – yet another cry for attention, another attempt to ‘bother’ her. I am really not proud of this and I want to stop doing it. Reality is tough enough that I really shouldn’t have to add an element of fiction to it.

Then there is the issue of sex. I have had more sex since D-Day that probably over the last 6 months. My sexual appetite has not increased – but now my W seems more willing to satisfy it. I have enjoyed that aspect but now I am not so sure. It seems to me that she is using sex as a way to ‘calm me down’ – here I am sure that you see the vicious circle that it’s creating with my ‘acting’. Now I find myself ‘acting’ in the hope of having sex – with sex the ‘acting’ stops, without sex the ‘acting’ continues and often worsens. This is creating an unhealthy environment that I need to address very quickly.

The first step in stopping those destructive behaviors is to recognize them and understand their potential consequences. This is where I am right now. The key now is to control my emotions and impulses to prevent them from happening. Basically my challenge is to get what I want out of our relationship (i.e. love, attention, affection, compassion, sexual fulfillment, etc.) without playing those ‘games’. Any suggestions?

Using sex to calm you down? Sounds like a plan to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The suggestion of meds is for a temporary period of time. Given that you have had anxiety issues before I suspect it is something you should look into.

Do ONE thing if she is giving you sex to calm you down. Make sure SHE enjoys it. I mean really really make sure she enjoys it. You have no idea how this will help her, AND help you.

Please do talk to your MC about the meds.

God Bless,

JL

I agree with JL. Your anxiety is being kicked into high gear because of the A. Sometimes that happens when someone has suffered from anxiety and is under more severe than normal everyday stress.

Your wife probably knows SF is soothing to you right now and wants to do anything to fix everything. I think that's a natural reaction considering she's not in withdrawal.

If you're both enjoying SF I say it's a good way to mend your relationship! Enjoy!

Im so sorry to hear about your ordeal. I found out about my husbands affair Oct. 28, 2005. He also ended the 3 month long affair and wanted me to stay and was very sorry. Our marriage was also not the best. We were also distant. Not spending enough time together, not letting our marriage be a priority. He was also intimate with her. I did ask details and he told me everything. I wished that I never asked. Now that I am furhter along in my healing I see why that has made this process harder. It most definatlety made being intimate harder. I did not want him to do anything with me that he did with her. He could not touch me in certain ways or do certain things. The fact is that they had sex, and how they did it doesn,t matter and won't change anything. it will only make your healing harder. I speak from experience.

Asterix, I know exactly what you're going through. I found out this weekend that my wife has been having an affair for 6 months and my head hasn't stopped spinning. I'm feeling sickening emotions I never knew existed.

I read your original post and felt relieved (isn't that strange?) that my experience is almost exactly the same and I'm not alone - even though I've never felt so alone.

The one exception to the similarity between our experiences is that I actually know all the sex acts they have done together. Through my investigations, I recovered all the email she thought she had deleted, and all the gory graphic details were there in black and white. What made it worse is that she was doing things with this man that she had never wanted or desired to do with me in all our 17 years of marriage. Things that she knew I would have loved to share with her. This fact alone has almost destroyed me.

I love my wife and can't imagine life without her. I can come to terms with the causes of the affair, working it out, rebuilding the marriage, but the one thing I will have enormous difficulty with is this issue of sexual behaviour. If she had made love to him the same way she made love to me, it would be more bearable.

So, should you know what sexual acts were performed? Right now I'd have to say no. I wish I hadn't read the emails as it makes me sick to my stomach, and could potentially scupper any chance of rebuilding the marriage. Sometimes it really is best not to know.

I'm impressed that you realize these behaviors and see that they can slow the recovery. Here's one suggestion. When you feel an acting urge come over you, act a different way. Humble. Apologetic. Loving. You can do it.

Think of some way you've wronged your WW. Ever yell at her? Lie to her? Look at another woman?.. If you're like me, you've wronged her in some way. Concentrate on that, and act humble and repentent for your own bad behavior. We are all God's children. We all fall short of his expectations, and by his Grace are forgiven.

Coachswife – Yes overall the SF has helped – it's a way to reconnect and to feel close to each other. The thing I need to watch is how I handle rejection. Usually that doesn't go well and it ends up being a source of stress between us. She sometimes wonders how I will react when she says no...It is something she has actually asked me to 'think about'.

ovdbythree – details are indeed a double-edge sword, I am finding that out as well. Yet I still think that my imagination has a tendency to be worse than reality. I imagine their relationship as the best Hollywood romance and their love-making as a XXX film – based on some of the comments that my W has made so far I am starting to realize that it probably wasn't the case. In any case I rather know exactly what happened rather than keep wondering. I haven't been able to get many details out of my W, she completely avoids the topic and has often completely shut me down when I bring it up. At this time I still have a log of questions that remain unanswered.

Molari – I know exactly what you mean by the 'sickening emotions'. Whenever the thought of them together invades my mind I literally get sick to my stomach – it's an unbearable feeling – still completely in shock that my W would actually go through with something like this (to tell you the truth I think that she is even in shock that she did it). A strange thing between the FOM and my W is that they apparently never discussed what happened afterwards. They had sex for a week (and 'fooled around' for a few weeks before that) then they each moved to another state. They kept calling each other on the phone but apparently never discussed their feelings for each other, never discussed the affair itself, never discussed the sex, bottom line it's almost as if nothing had ever happened. It's almost as if the A was supposed to be a purely physical thing, with no strings attached – some kind of sick 'friends with benefits' scenario. So for me there has been a total lack of evidence about this A and if my W hadn't admitted to it, I would probably have never known. The few sexual details I have are those that she shared with me, other than that I really have nothing. It is actually something that bothers me – she literally decides what she will tell me and what she will not tell me – determining what helps and what doesn't – what 'serves a purpose' and what doesn't – in this I feel that the balance of power hasn't been re-established. She did make comments like 'the sex was nothing exceptional', 'we didn't do things that we haven't done before', etc – nothing that really helps but it also tells me that my XXX-scenarios probably didn't happen. All in all that makes me feel better – but so little. In any case, I wish you good luck – the few weeks since D-Day have been difficult and I am sure that I am far from being out of the woods but apparently some people survive this – hopefully you and I will some day have success stories to share with other BS's. Keep posting on this site, it has really helped me

Weneedhelp – last night I really had to control myself – no acting, no faking, and trying to minimize my 'late night attacks'. At one point I just got up and went to watch some TV (stayed up until pretty late,to the point of exhaustion so that I could lay down and fall asleep right away), it was better than trying to lay next to her and having to constantly control my emotions. So all in all I did a good job but I was really hurting inside, really stressed out, a lot of anxiety, and a lot of pain. She offered to hug me and to hold me but I did feel like it so I declined. In the morning she came next to me and offered to hold me again, this time I accepted.

asterix I'm happy to hear you were able to control yourself. Please know that it will get better. Really it will.

Let it get better. Make room for her mistake. We know that we are all prone to error. That means that even those closest to us can hurt us terribly. That doesn't mean she doesn't care about you. She does. And it doesn't mean you have to suffer for a long period of time. It just means that, like all of us, she can make really huge mistakes. Please forgive her, and ask her forgiveness for the things you have done to her.

The devil on my shoulder is always whispering 'Pride' in my ear. The angel is whispering 'Humility' and 'Forgiveness'. With the help of good people here the angels are winning. Make that happen for you!

Forgiveness takes strength. It's not for wimps. A friend here pointed this out to me; in hopes it will help you as well: "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." (Phil 4:13)

If you have room on your bookshelf, take a look at "What's so Amazing about Grace" by Yancey. It should give you strength to forgive.

Astrix,

Something you mentioned that caught my eye.


My A 9 years ago was conducted 3 months before I was to move 500 miles away. Looking back I feel this was a huge factor in allowing myself to carry out the A. Knowing I had an open door to walk out only a few months away.

Post deleted by maril

Maril,



I was posting to Astrix, and only mentioning a fact of my A that I had not recognized prior to now. In otherwords thinking out loud. I guess I just don't understand who you are refering to when you say "us"?

In a previous post you said:


Then you say this:


Today I read your post, and can only scratch my head. Trying to figure out just what it is you are looking for.

Me personally I have been both betrayer, and betrayed. Because the pain I have felt being betrayed. I can say "I have learned my lesson".

I can also say I accept my share of the responsibility in contributing to both My FWW's A, and my own.

Are you at all responsible for your H's A?

Why, or HOW could you not feel guilt for having an A shortly after your M?

I guess my question to you is this: What is it you are looking for, and who's responsiblity is it to achive your goal?

I would also recommend you start your own thread.

Astrix, Sorry for the thread jack.

JKT,
thanks for the lesson. I was actually looking for advice. I will remove my post.

Post deleted by maril

I am currently traveling for business in Europe. These times away from home have been especially difficult since D-day. Traveling time and lonely evenings and nights at the hotel give me a lot of time to think about the events, and they usually build quite a bit of anxiety in me. This translates in me calling my W and having arguments with her over the phone. The same thing happened yesterday – to the point that I ended up almost screaming at her. She called me back a few times later in the day and we spoke some more – much milder conversations but literally no content – just plain chit-chat. I just feel so much anger in me right now, to the point that I feel uncomfortable being close to her and affectionate with her. I even find it hard to tell her that I love her. I feel that I am entering another emotional phase right now. Maybe this is the ‘anger’ stage of the grieving process. At first I had separation anxiety, felt like I needed to be next to her all the time, was desperate for her affection (hugs, kisses, SF), and I was literally pursuing her. No I feel very different, almost detached.

Last weekend I went to the counselor for my one-on-one session – next week we are back together. The session went well, I have the feeling that I could have talked for hours, one hour was not enough. We decided that I should bring my ‘questions about the A’ to the next session. I will let the MC facilitate that and see where it leads.

Hi Asterix,

If your anywhere near Geneva, I'll buy you a beer.

CuriosityKilledTheCat - Actually I am the one in beer country, namely Munich, come here and "I" will buy you a beer! Take care.

Last night was tough again – I ended up arguing with my W over and over again (over the phone from Europe) – spattering my pain all over the place and desperately trying to drag out a piece of information out of her. I am in a very angry period right now: how could she do that to me, she ruined my life, etc. When I am this angry I find that I will fall back in the vicious circle of asking her questions about the A, as a way to get back at her and to hurt her like she has hurt me. My W stood her ground and refused to give in, she would not answer a single question about the A, and especially nothing related to their physical relationship. She kept telling over and over that we needed help to go over those questions and that I should bring them to our MC this coming Friday (this is also what the MC and I agreed to do the last time I saw him). I cannot tell how you much that frustrated me and that frustration made me even angrier. When I get like that I really have to watch it because I could very easily say things that I would regret later – basically trying to retaliate for the pain and frustration that I feel. After we hung up, I ended up falling asleep, praying.

Today I feel different – obviously I still feel sad and broken but I also completely feel burnt out on the topic of the A. Today it is the last thing I was to discuss. I was actually going over my list of questions this morning and I had to stop because I felt that it was so boring, I just didn’t want to have to deal with that today. I closed the file and I haven’t looked at it since. I don’t know how the rest of the day will go – I am a bit afraid of the lonely evenings in my hotel rooms, when my mind has so much space and time to wander.

If possible I would really like to hear more and more stories of successful recoveries, if possible stories that include a BH and FWW (easier to identify). This is because sometimes I feel so hopeless, thinking that my life is ruined and that I will never be happy again. Those stories could help me envision a better future.

strange how many of us are so close together. I live only 2 hours from Munich.
I have been reading your post, I wish you the best of luck and hope you can find it in your heart to forgive your wife and move forward. Both of you deserve the happiness you seek in each other...

Oh Asterix.. We posted our last thoughts at the same time. I am a FWW and have been reading your thread evrey time I log on bewcause I have so much hope for you two. Maybe reading mine will give you a peek into what yous wife may be feeling at the time. It may be totally different because the type of A was different but some of the things she says that you write here mirror my feelings. THERE IS HOPE!!! I think the process is taking longer for you than it does for some but the fact that you are still trying says something. I was beyond relieved to see you say that you were finally burnt out on the details and questioning. I think that is a HUGE milestone that your wife needs you to reach so that you can move forward in your recovery....

hey,

I'm a journalist researching an article on infidelity - looking for a few people to share their stories COMPLETE ANONYMITY of course. If any of you want to share, give advice or just mention what happened in their relationships please contact me at umullally@tribune.ie

Thanks

The trip to Europe was tough on me – a lot of time for introspection which unfortunately means a lot of time to think negatively as well. Thoughts about the A and her deception occupied my mind quite a bit, stressed me out, and made me go from desperate to angry. On my way back home I even argued one more time with my W over the phone. I should know better than to start arguing with her when I am jet-lagged, exhausted, and have a bad migraine. Sure enough I took a stroll in the 'affair minefield' and dropped a few questions. It turned out to be another stressful and unproductive discussion. It takes me 15 to 20 minutes to get a straight answer to any of my questions. It seems that she 'dances around the question' and spends more energy explaining why she can't or shouldn't answer the question (e.g. 'it serves no purpose', 'I don't recall', etc.) than actually trying to provide an honest and open answer. At least that's how I perceive those discussions. She picked me up at the airport and we barely spoke on the 30 minutes drive back home. The evening went slightly better after that.

The next day I was off, it gave me an opportunity to spend some quality time with the kids. In the evening I met her at her work so that we could drive together to our fourth MC session afterwards. While she was finishing up some stuff I was on her computer. I found a couple of things that bothered me. First I saw that she had gone to the OM's company web site a few weeks ago and looked him up. She apparently did that after I sent him the email asking for NC (see earlier post). At which time she saw his company domain name for the first time and was apparently curious to see where he worked and what his profile said. I also saw that back in October she had gone to a web site looking for hotel rooms in Las Vegas. That was apparently around the time that they had talked about going to a conference together. In reality probably nothing that was very important or that I should worry about but I felt noxious to my stomach – these ended up being very strong triggers for me and they completely spoiled my mood. After that we drove to the MC, we were early so we ended up talking a little bit – since I was still under the shock of the earlier triggers I brought up the A again.

The MC session went well. I think that I ended up doing most of the talking – that's probably what the MC wanted this time. At this point he is pretty much telling me that my constant questioning is not helping anything and is holding me back in the A. The questioning and the focusing on the A is preventing me from focusing on reconstruction, keeps portraying her as the villain, and is being used as an excuse for not trusting her. He is probably right about those things. Of course we spoke about many other things but I am having a hard time summarizing the key elements of the session. The rest of the evening went well.

So far the weekend is going well. I have kept off the topic of the A but I am not feeling too good. I feel sad and withdrawn. I find it difficult to enjoy my time off.

Asterix you are doing great, and it will get better. There's light ahead, and after that there are many years of happy marriage. Be strong my friend, have faith, and keep your chin up.

Overall not a very good weekend for me, and therefore not a very good weekend for my W either. I was withdrawn, didn’t talk much, and showed very little patience with the kids and everyone else around me. My W was as supportive as she could. She was nice, patient, and fairly affectionate. Yesterday afternoon I spent several hours alone in my bedroom watching some TV. My W came and checked on me a few times, gave me a hug and kept asking me to come back downstairs, which I eventually did. Once bedtime came, we cuddled and we talked a little bit. I told her that I wanted to make her happy and that I had also learned a few lessons from this A. One of those lessons was that I shouldn’t take her for granted. She told me that she loved me. It was a good and warm moment between us.

Then unfortunately I made the mistake of telling her why I had been so depressed all day. I told her that I had been haunted by a few thoughts that day: 1) I was wondering if they had kissed the time we all attended a business reception (the OM was there), which was the weekend before their week of sex, 2) I was wondering what her friend (to whom she had talked about the A) meant when she said “she knew she couldn’t have both of you”, and 3) I was wondering why she had looked up his corporate web site and his profile on line in recent weeks. At first she didn’t say anything, I guess that she didn’t know if I was really asking her those questions or just making a statement about what I had been thinking about all day. Then I turned them into questions. To the first question she answered ‘no’ but she was once again wondering what the significance of that question was since it seemed like a detail considering that the following week she had sex with him (which she obviously admitted). I answered that it was significant to me since I was at the same reception. To the second question she said that she didn’t remember ever saying something like that to her friend. To the third question she said that she was just curious and didn’t elaborate. Then I took it one step further and starting talking about the time I had spoken to the OM’s W. This time I lied to her. I told her that the OM’s W had told me that she had found ‘romantic notes’ between the two of them and I was asking my W if that was true that they had exchanged such notes. She told me ‘I don’t remember ever writing him romantic notes’. I was just fishing, the OM’s W never told me that. In a way I think that I was trying to trap her, verifying the claim that she once made that they never really had a ‘romantic’ relationship. I was playing with fire and the whole discussion really disturbed her and frustrated her. Bottom line here we were again, talking about the A. She said that whatever she does now she will always fail the ‘affair test’, she will always be the one who screwed up. She was also disturbed by the fact that a few moments ago I was telling her that I loved her, that I had learned my lessons, and that I didn’t want to take her for granted anymore – and then now I was grilling her about the A again. She rolled over to her side of the bed and I rolled over to mine, then we felt asleep. This morning she came next to me and we hugged. I apologized for last night. She told me that it was ‘all right’ and she thanked me for apologizing. We held each other for a while and then we got up for work.

Now that I think about it I believe that I brought up the lie about the OM’s W to keep her engaged in the conversation. At that time she was falling asleep and I wanted to continue talking. Maybe I just did this to control the discussion, to interrogate here, to trap her – maybe even to torment her. I don’t really know why I did it. The only thing I know is that once again I didn’t learn anything new and if anything it added tension to what had already been a difficult day. I am hoping that realizing this will eventually convince me to stop this behavior. I am really trying, really hard, but I still relapse.

asterix, just wait. It will get better. You will get tired of this thoughts eventually. I am 5 month away from the DDay and I sometimes feel like asking these questions again but then I know I will not stop after one and I know how bad will it make me feel so I can manage now to distract myself away from it. Someday I am completely happy, someday I am sad but nothing like 4 or 3 month ago. My H said two days ago that 'we are made for each other' which what I felt always. It is better then 'I love you'. Time really heals. Also I realized that when I feel happy I don't think about A or if I do - I think about it with a humor and also that we both will appreciate each other more. But when I am depressed I start thinking about the OW and the A. This is very important for me. I am not depressed because of the A but vise versa. You said that you were taking medications before. I had a minor depression and anxiety before all this happened and then I was worrying about terrorists, pedophiles, tsunamis, etc. Now all that is gone from my head but the A is right there to worry about. I started taking Zoloft and I will see how it is going to work out. Also, please believe her - she probably does not remember the details of the A. But if you keep bringing it up she will have to think about it. Think of any girl you were dating before - do you care about it, do you remember much? It is in your mind more then in her.

Good luck, do something what you enjoy. Something which make you feel better. Force yourself. You need to have positive emotions. Life goes on. (You should see or hear me three month ago <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> - but I am SO much better now. That's why I believe you will be fine. Just be patient) I am so tired to be miserable. I want to be happy and I will be. Funny - I think now I am happier then right before all this happened (except of course when I recall the A). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is an email that I wrote to my W this morning, I think that it correctly reflects my current state of mind:

This is a 2x4 for you, upside the head. As you know, each time you do this you drive a little wedge between you and your FWW. Enough wedges can split a block of granite - actually it doesn't take much force at all - and your marriage is weak right now. I say this in a loving way; You need to stop this.

In one of the Star Wars movies, Yoda says something like 'there is no try there is only do, or do not'. Stop with the trying and switch to doing. You are obviously a man of strength and substance. Weaker men fail, but you can do this. Stop with the wedges already, please.

WeNeedHelp – I keep going back and forth on this topic – one of the reasons is that I get conflicting advice.

On one hand, some people will tell me that “Those questions are a way for you to process what happened”, “Those questions are a way for you to begin to open yourself to your W”, “Those questions and the answer are one of the most important parts of healing that you can have”, “You are far to soon into this to be putting limits on yourself and what you need”, etc. Basically that tells me that my W should bite the bullet and that asking questions is good for me, and eventually good for us. Here I would only have to make the fact of asking questions more comfortable for my W by maybe writing them down first, and finding the right place and right time to discuss them. But bottom line it’s ok to ask questions.

On the other hand, others will tell me that “each time you do this you drive a little wedge between you and your FWW”, “the time you are focusing on your questioning, is time NOT spend on rebuilding and worse not checking to see if things are on the up and up NOW”, “Your approach to rebuilding thus far is NOT strengthening your marriage now”, “the only questions you need to be asking NOW are how can I make the marriage better”, “Shut down the questioning”, etc. I think that this is also what my MC is telling me to do – he sees my questions as a way to keep vilifying my wife, keeping my guard up, and further delaying true recovery. Following this line of thought I should really force myself to stop asking questions about the A.

I still don’t know what’s the RIGHT thing to do at this stage.

Here's another 2X4! I guess one of the things that bothers me is that you lied to her concerning your conversation with OM's W to manipulate her.

I feel deep down that you're trying to catch her in a lie and trying to manipulate her. True, she lied to you in the past covering up with A- but since then the two of you have said you would start over. Part of that starting over is NOT lying. You want honesty of her but yet you lied about that.

I'm thinking that she probably feels like when will it ever be enough for you?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It's not like you bring this up to her once a week, you do it almost daily. She must feel like she is on trial, and that is no way to mend a marriage.

I am sure this is absolutely correct BUT...
that's the only way you can put things behind. If you would not love her you would not care so much. Some people can't start heal till they tear themself apart. That's why I keep saying 'be patient'. Tell your wife that this will get better. Less secrets she has - less questions will come out. Sure you will keep asking same things again and again which may make her feel like it will never stop. Your panic is not going last forever. I am saying this based on my experience since your reaction is very much like mine. And again think about taking meds. I hope you are going to have a good day.

You’re right, not one of my proudest moments (mea culpa). I don’t know what’s going on with me right now. This probably falls in the same category as the email trap I was planning to send to her (see earlier post). Or maybe I lie and manipulate her as a form of revenge since I was lied to and cheated on. This being said, I should know better – there is nothing to be gained out of more deception – I am just going to cause more destruction. I am just not practicing what I preach (i.e. radical honesty) or maybe only when it suits me. This is a behavior that I MUST stop now.
Yes she does feel on trial. She once told me that she didn’t mind the ‘questions’, but she hated the ‘questioning’. Some of her recurring complaints are that 1) the questions keep bringing her back to a place where she feels ashamed, embarrassed, and mad at herself, 2) I always seem to have an angry/hostile way to ask them, 3) she is always worried how I am going to react when she says something (she still hasn’t forgotten my early angry outburst), 4) she doesn’t feel that I listen to her answers or respect her boundaries/feelings (i.e. what she feels comfortable discussing), 5) my questions seem to focus on ‘details’ that serve no purpose and don’t help us move forward.
Well here we go again, ‘to ask or not ask – that is the question’. I think that I will just have to make up my own mind about what the right approach is. In brief, I know is that what I am doing now is not working – my questioning is building stress, anxiety, frustration, and distance between us. It provides me with little or no information – bottom line it’s not effective. Between keeping this line of questioning and not asking any questions at all, there is a middle ground, the list of questions that is only addressed in front of the counselor. I need to stick to that approach!!!! I think that it will achieve three goals: 1) it will give me the feeling that I can still ask questions if I want to, 2) by preparing a list and knowing that it will be seen by a counselor it will give me a chance to really think about what I want to ask (increase quality), and 3) it will provide a “safer” environment for my W.

I never said for you not to ask questions- I just think they would be better suited to be answered in the format with the counselor.

If you cannot wait until the counseling session perhaps you two could agree on a mid point during the week to discuss if you have additional questions. Say, if counseling is on Friday, can we sit down on Tuesday and discuss???

Your wife is really trying, but I feel that if you push her too hard she may feel that no matter what she does you will never be able to move on.

Have you seriously thought about that?? Do you feel that there is anything she can do to mend the marriage? Do you feel that you will ever move on?? If you make a choice to forgive her, at some point you need to do that.

I just spent close to 45 minutes on the phone with my W talking about a possible plan of action. Basically I want to reach two goals: 1) develop my own understanding of the A by asking questions about it, 2) rebuild our M (care, protection, honesty, time). My W on the other hand wants to only focus on goal #2 (a goal that we share) and see #1 as an unproductive and possibly destructive step. She told me that getting more information about the A will never satisfy me (she says that she tried that), there will always be more questions. She also thinks that all those questions are symptoms of something deeper, a more fundamental issue that I am trying to address (although she doesn’t know what that issue could be). She wonders what my “true” motivation is for asking those questions. At this point she thinks that I am ‘obsessed’ by those questions.

My plan to address goal #1 included: 1) talk to the MC about my possible motivations for all these questions - are they in fact a way for me to rebuild my trust in her? Or are they something else? Maybe I could use the MC to dig up those potentially deeper issues; 2) limit our Q & A to a pure off-line approach, i.e. in writing. I saw this approach as a solution to some of the issues she mentioned with my ‘questioning’ before:
• By writing my Qs, I would avoid the angry/hostile tone that I am apparently using when I ask them verbally;
• Writing down her As would possibly make it easier for her to talk about ‘embarrassing’ topics – furthermore she may be able to better articulate her answers and provide something more “thought-out” (it would beat the usual “I don’t know” that she usually answers when taken on the spot);
• I would be able to go over the As several times if I wanted to, without having to ask her the same Qs over and over again;
• She could answer the Qs when it’s convenient for her, i.e. always the right time and the right place
• It still gives me an outlet for my Qs – I can think about them more, ensure that I really want to know the As

She was very negative about this proposal. Basically she still sees the fact of asking questions about the A as an unhealthy process – one that doesn’t address the deeper issues and one that will never end. She sees those questions as destructive, and creating a further divide between us. She says that she doesn’t mind if I write down my Qs but she should have the right to determine what she will answer. So basically she thanked me for giving this so much thought but she didn’t buy into it. She also didn’t provide a counter-proposal other than saying that we should run this idea by the MC to see what he thinks. If he thinks that it’s a good idea then she will give it a try.

I am very disappointed. I am really trying to put a lot of thought in this and find a middle ground that we can both live with. She will just not commit to answering ALL my questions.

Yes, be an open book - answer all my questions with patience and honesty, regardless of how often I ask them or how embarrassing they may be. Something that she apparently sees as destructive, unproductive, and endless.

Having to fight to get my questions answered is draining my energy and making a difficult process even more tedious than it probably needs to be (I compare it to urban warfare). It is distracting me from goal #2 (see post above) and further delaying reconciliation.

Hmmm. This does not seem reasonable to me. Surely you must have a finite number of questions. If you write them down, and she provides a written answer, then you would never need to have her answer them again.

Every time you have the urge to get the answer, you can simply open your book, read the question - and the answer. I suspect you'd soon tire of that.

So yes, there probably IS an ulterior motive. Could it be to inflict pain and embarrassment and suffering on your W in retaliation for what she has done to you?

Long time lurker...I've been following your thread. I hope you can find a way to ease your pain and find peace with your wife. I only have the barest hint of what you're going through - I've never been a BS, but I've had a few girlfriends cheat on me. What you're feeling must be a few orders of magnitude worse.

If your FWW is in 100% commitment to work this out, she does not get the privilege of deciding which questions she is going to answer, which to give a partial answer for, which to ignore, and so on. Her A was born of lies and deceit, and only when she has proven her trustworthiness can the healing begin for both of you.

However, with that said, I do really think the constant questioning has become counterproductive. I know there's the desire to ask questions and see if the answers change so you can catch her in a lie. There might be the desire to understand every possible aspect of her affair - you seem like an analytical sort so that might be your first instinct (mine too). Or, as Intention suggests, you might simply be using it as a means to flog your FWW about her affair.

Suggest you get on antidepressants if you're not already, and train yourself to stop harmful thought processes before they start. See, I've had depression for the last 20 years. When I'm down, one bad incident or one small setback can set off a whole chain reaction of negative thoughts that just feed on themselves and grow until I'm literally paralyzed. Break the cycle somehow.

Hope this is useful to you.

Another very difficult night. When we got home after work my W was distant, she thought that I was mad about the outcome of our earlier conversation (see post #2981014) and she was obviously uncomfortable coming close to me. As we were watching TV I put my arms around her and she warmed up a bit. We spoke a little bit about our earlier conversation – I told her that I was not angry about the outcome, just disappointed. I told her that I gave it a lot of thought and I felt bad that she would just reject my proposal simply saying that it would not be ‘productive’ and ‘constructive’, without offering an alternative or suggesting improvements. She then spent a good part of the evening watching her favorite show on TV until it was time to put the kids to bed.

When we got to bed, she rolled over to her side and told me “I love you, good night” – ready to go to sleep. I don’t know why but at that point I felt a lot of anxiety building in me. I think that I was frustrated that she would just go to sleep and not even try to talk to me some more. So I engaged her in a conversation and went over my proposal again. Once again I was not getting anywhere, she was sticking to her guns saying that she just couldn’t see how perseverating about the details of the A would help us. She just saw that as an unproductive and destructive process that was probably symptomatic of a deeper issue or motivation of mine. My frustration was really building up at that time, I became angry, and spent some time asking her different questions about her contacts with other former co-workers and so on. I didn’t ask questions about the A, but this time I seemed to be interrogating her about other things, just anything, probably trying to get back at her for the frustration, anger, and pain I was feeling at the time. She ended up sobbing on her side of the bed and I didn’t have it in me to comfort her.

Then the situation flipped, I started feeling so deeply sad and depressed, literally waves of sadness coming onto me. I ended up sobbing for what seemed like forever on my side of the bed, tears running down my cheeks. I told her that I was worried about my job because I couldn’t concentrate at work. I told her that I was worried as to how this whole thing would affect the kids. I told her how insecure I felt. So many negative thoughts, so much pain – I was all over the place. She stayed on her side of the bed, didn’t come close to me to try to comfort me – she was still talking to me but told me that she just didn’t know how to help me. I could also sense frustration in her voice. Around midnight she told me that she really needed to go to sleep. As I rolled to my side of the bed she came next to me, gave me a kiss, and told me “I love you and we don’t have to go about it like this”. Then we both fell asleep.

This morning I feel very sad and depressed – not very hopeful about our chances to get over this. While in the shower I was overcome by a wave of paranoia thinking that maybe she still wanted him – that maybe she was still thinking about it and hadn’t gotten over him yet – then I asked myself why I thought that and I couldn’t come up with anything tangible. I feel very sad today and not so sure that I will be able to get over this whole thing one day.

Tonight we have another MC session. I will probably present my plan at that time (see post #2981014) to see what the MC thinks about it.

My questioning last night (see above) was definitely to punish her and to bother her. But in the majority of cases I am just seeking information, I just have a question and I feel that I need an answer to understand the A better.

I am indeed starting to think that antidepressants are needed. I will bring that up at the MC tonight. I need to be able to concentrate on my work or I fear that I will lose my job. I also need to take the edge off the anxieties and negative thought processes that I am going through because they drain my energy and create more distance with my W. I also check her emails several times a day as well as her cell phone logs – I am so paranoid. And who knows, my W may have a point when she says that I am ‘obsessed’ with the questions about the A.

asterix, the more I read your story the more I feel that your wife is truly embarrassed and that's the only reason she can't talk about the affair.

Try to respect her desire not to give all intimate details. She probably feels that you will never love her again after that.

While asking my husband questions about S with the OW - deep inside I knew that I have no right to do that. He did feel bad telling me about that and I could see it was hard for him to be close to me after that. But my husband has a very strong will and can put things behind him (not only the A but also the shame of telling me these little nasty details). I am not sure that your wife can do that. Please stop. Don't ask her questions about SF!

I watched 'Indecent Proposal' recently. Try it. It gives you different perspective. Also try 'Nora' where James Joyce "is troubled by suspicions that she may be unfaithful to him". Good movie anyway. BTW I've read about British psychiatrist who treats his patients partially by making them watch selected movies. I made my husband watch 'Fatal Attraction' soon after the A ended and I can't describe the effect it had on him.

She's already told you she doesn't want to do this that way but you keep pushing. Now, you're going to ask the MC what he thinks about it. No matter what he thinks what makes you think that you can convince her to do that?? I agree that so much inspection of the A is counterproductive and it definitely seems as if you have a hidden agenda of some sort to me, and I'm not your W. I can't imagine what she must be feeling about the whole thing at this point.

You feel that you might not be able to get over it, but frankly you're not letting yourself start to heal. It's like a scab that you're constantly picking at. The more you pick at it the longer it continues to bleed.

I do not believe that you will ever truly understand the affair. It doesn't make sense. You may understand her motivation and her reasoning and her thought process, but how could you ever understand something that has caused you this much pain and destruction?? I simply believe there is nothing that she could say that would make this okay, because guess what? It's not okay. So, at some point you have to draw a line and say "Either I'm going to make the choice to forgive her and rebuild the marriage or I'm not" because it's never going to be right in your eyes. Because she cannot go back and change the past and undo the damage- which is the only thing that would make it right.

Please talk with your MC about a referral to a prescribing doctor. I truly believe you need some medication to sort this out.

Running the proposal by the MC is her idea. She is the one who told me that if he thinks that it’s a good idea then she will give it a try. I have no idea what my “hidden agenda” could be – or even if there is one. All I know is that I have questions about the A; that those questions boil inside me, until I can get an answer to them. Then I have some more. I don’t know if there is an ulterior motive, I don’t know if there is another motivation for those questions – if there is then I am no aware of them, they must be subconscious. Regardless this is also a point that I want to discuss with the MC – maybe he can help identify the underlying issue there. Some possibilities: Obsessive disorders, curiosity, control, punishment, continue to vilify her – who knows? What about just trying to collect as much information as possible about something that turned your life upside down? After 9/11 how much time did we spend on TV and in newspapers hearing the stories, learning about the terrorists, watching the crashes over and over, collecting money for the families of the victim and learning about their lives – what was our ‘hidden agenda’ there? What about Katrina, the death of John Paul II, war in Iraq, the Laci Peterson case, the OJ Simpson case, the Natalee Holloway case, etc – what keeps us riveted to our TV screens, to Internet blogs, to newspapers – what justifies our thirst for every single lit bit of information? Can we not imagine that an A which has such a deep personal impact on us could trigger the same behaviors – or even more extreme behaviors? The only difference is that we don’t read about our A in newspapers, we don’t see special reports on TV, we don’t buy special edition magazine about it – there is one and only source of information about it – our WS. They have a monopoly on A information.

Yes, that’s the most important question right now. What I get over this? Can I forgive and can I move on? Can I live a fulfilling and happy life knowing that it happened? I don’t know the answer to any of these questions yet. I hope that I can but I am yet convinced.

Asterix:

1 - what percentage of events in this universe have a logical explanation?

2 - what percentage of the above events can your finite and fallable mind grasp the meaning of?

Multiply 1 by 2 and you will have a percentage less than 100.

Is it possible that the A falls into the unknown portion? Is it your pride that is driving you because you think that it MUST be understood?

Time and time again, people are encouraging you to spend your energy on rebuilding instead of dragging your wife through the mud of her past mistakes. Or they are offering ways to satisfy your desire to know that are not threatening to your W.

Yet you choose to disregard the advice and continue along a path that has the potential to destroy what remains of your M. Listen to coachswife - make a decision that you will stop trying to understand and start trying to forgive.

asterix,
I hope we all can help you.

Before my H affair I think I was vulnerable also. It just did not happen.

Reasons:
boredom
depression
anxiety after 9/11
feeling that life is not exciting any more
being tired all the time with the baby
thought that I am obsessed with the baby but my H is not because he was excited about his hobby and I did not have one
tension in our relationship after 16 years of marriage

I could easy see myself falling into the trap because the feeling of the excitement over the flirting is too tempting. But I had enough of dating experience and I know too well that then I would wake up one morning embarrassed even to think that I allowed OM to touch me, terrified that I ruined everything and regretting and scared to death that my H will not respect me anymore.
My H did not date that much before we got married and he admitted that he did not have girls pursuing him when he was young. That's exactly what OW did - called him herself and told him she likes him (he just became a physician - what a coincidence)

This is my view. I think any information will help you.

I want to make it clear that I haven’t disregarded the advice. In fact I am very thankful for the advice and I am doing my very best to follow this advice (although some of the advice I have received is conflicting). However, as you know, it’s not an easy road and I have already encountered many set-backs and relapses. I am sorry to report that I am still struggling with some of the same issues that I brought up weeks ago but that’s where I honestly am. I am also worried that the path I am on, and most importantly the lack of progress I am making, is causing even more destruction in my M. At the very least I know that it is hurting my W. I pray that I will be able to avoid questioning her and concentrate instead on more positive and constructive matters. Please be patient with me.

Yes, the same is true for me. I was not happy in my M either – I basically had a lot of resentment, frustration, and anger towards my W for a number of reasons. I took my W for granted and I didn’t nurture the M. You can imagine the amount of LBs that those feelings generated. We were distant, emotionally disconnected, and our ‘friendship’ has taken some serious hits. We were basically two roommates living in the same house – at least that’s how I seem to remember it. That also made me vulnerable to an A and sometimes I think that the only reason I didn’t have one is because I didn’t have a serious opportunity. Now, in reality, would I have cheated on her if the opportunity had presented itself? I don’t know (and I hope I wouldn’t have) but I know that the context was an enabler at that time. The surprise is that my W had the A, at the time I thought that she would never allow herself to go there. To tell you the truth, I didn’t think that she had the ‘sexual drive’ to have an A, I was dead wrong.

As I said before, if anything, this A is a loud wake-up call, sending us the clear message that the M can no longer be neglected or it will completely collapse. The days of taking the M and each other for granted are over; the days of innocence (or maybe I should say ‘wishful thinking’) are over as well. I know that if we both do this well we can probably be happier and closer than we have been in years. But I also know that it is going to be a long and difficult journey for us and I still have some ambivalent feelings about committing to it – probably because I am uncertain about the outcome and I am very afraid of getting hurt again along the way.

I think you may be on to something when you said obsessive disorder.

I think you're the type of person who is used to thinking very logically or methodically and basically the A doesn't fit into any of these boxes. But yet you continually want to make it.

Can I be completely frank with you? I say this in all honesty- and I might get slammed by my comments from some BS's here on the board. Fear of just such a reaction as yours from my first husband is one reason why I didn' t try to mend the marriage. I thought it would be too painful to try and make ammends- to gain forgiveness- and that I would never hear the end of it. My reaction was to try and run from the blame and the hurt and the questions- and I have to give your wife all the more credit for sticking around and facing what I wasn't able to do.

I had remorse about it later but in looking back I knew that everytime it came up I would want to run- far far away- and I can only imagine that it may be like that from your wife.

A loving reaction and forgiveness is more apt to get her to want to mend the marriage- it's obvious that she wants to.

Have you began to tell her how you felt your needs weren't being met before and that you might have cheated had you the chance?? To me, that would admit to her that you are not perfect and have had some of the same feelings that she had. That's radical honesty too.

Lastly, you said your wife didn't appear sexual enough to have an affair. It doesn't have to be about sex- I know my A wasn't.

Hi asterix. I made a similar comment before. Can't remember that you responded, maybe I'll try again in hopes you won't find it offensive.

IF you want to get your mind off of her errors, think of your own. I mean your errors outside of the context of her A. Have you ever yelled at her? Belittled her? Invalidate her feelings? Make her feel insignificant? Lied/withheld information? etc?

We're all God's creatures, and we are all flawed. If you can focus on making right your own errors it will help you to make room for errors of others, including your own WW.

What say you?

Well I am not a shrink and I am not even sure that what I am going through follows the textbook definition of ‘obsessive disorder’. I guess that it would be easier for everyone (including my W) to place such a label on my emotions – maybe even hoping that the right pill can get rid of them. Never feels good when someone tells you that you are "crazy" to feel the way you do.
I won’t judge you for not trying to work things out with your H – I don’t know your situation – maybe your M was no longer worth that kind of fight. Why did you even tell him that you had an A? Why did you drop that bomb on him and then abandon him? Wouldn’t it have been better to just leave him without telling me that you had betrayed him too? Just wondering…
I am glad that my W is by my side, has admitted to the A, and is saying that she loves me and wants to be with me. We are going through a rough time right now but I think that it is to be expected given the circumstances. What kind of reaction should a WS expect when they tell their BS that they have cheated? Does anyone expect ‘That’s ok, Honey, I love you, let’s not worry about this – give me a week and I am sure that we can move on without having to ever bring this up again…”.
Yes I have done that. I even said it in front of the MC. I am trying to be an open book as well.
Yes I have learned that now.
Soon after my W told me about her A, I confessed to her that I had frequently visited porn sites on the Internet - that's exactly why I did that - to show her that I am also flawed but that in the spirit of radical honesty I can also tell my most embarrassing secrets. This being said I don't think that the fact of knowing that we are both 'sinners' helps much in this case.

asterix,
you are not alone. I am also 'crazy' one. As I already said my DDay was 3 month before yours. I went through all the emotions you are describing. It WILL get BETTER!!!! Tell your wife that it just takes longer for you.

Just remember when you will be OK post something for all of us - I can't wait to see it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wish my English would be better I realize that I sound like a high school drop out. Can't write even a fraction of all my thoughts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Maril - believe me I can't wait to get there. I sincerely hope that I will be one of the lucky ones who can claim a successful reconciliation with their spouse. Thank you again for your continued support.

I'm not saying you're crazy Asterix- it's just that I know when you're under anxiety it's easy to get obsessive about things. I've been the same way in the past in my guilt over my affair.

In my own personal situation my therapist told me not to disclose the A- due to PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) and various other things I'd experienced as a child. I can see that in hindsight that wasn't the right thing to do, but I was sick at the time and hospitalized and it seemed like I should listen to the therapist. So, I never told. Then, after I left him- not for the other man- he found out. I made a mistake and I didn't feel that he would forgive me or that I could stand to work through it with him. In my past as a child in an abusive home- when I say abusive- I mean everything you can experience- sexual, emotional, physical- I learned to protect myself by running from pain. Which is much of what I did at that time. Not proud of it, but that's the facts- and I'm here to try to help others to make sure that something good comes from what happened in my past.

I'm certainly not suggesting that you forget the affair- or that after one day you say "I'm sorry honey, I love you let's forget this and never mention it" I don't believe that I came across that way at all.

I'm saying- she's showing up- she's trying- she's answered question after question- she's reacted in ways that many WS here only dream their spouse would do.

I'm afraid that of two things here-
1. You won't be able to move on from this.
2. Or you will force your wife to push you away from the constant backlash from the affair.

Obviously others agree with me a little bit here so there may be something to what I'm saying??

Last night we had our fifth MC session. It was a good one. We spent the bulk of the time talking about the ‘questions about the A’. The MC nicely facilitated that discussion by having my W and I express our feelings and emotions about that difficult topic.
I am now convinced that I need to stop asking questions about the A. It is okay to share my feelings and emotions about the A, my hurt, anger, frustrations, and everything else but there is no value in continuing to ‘grill’ her on the actual events. Our next MC session in on 4/18 - I see it as a personal challenge to avoid any questions about the A between now and then. It would be such a victory for me to reach that date without falling back in the vicious circle of questioning her.

That's a wonderful update Asterix. Glad to hear you guys are making progress with the MC.

Coachwife – thanks for the encouragement. I know that it won’t be easy though. Just this morning I was reading a post about an EA where an OW was telling the WH that she ‘misses their friendship’ during NC. That was such a trigger for me. When I ask my W if she missed the OM after the PA, she tells me that she didn’t miss the ‘physical’ part of their relationship (she didn’t miss the SF, being in his arms, she actually said that she liked being with him less during that time, etc.) but she keep saying that she missed ‘the friendship and the companionship’ (note that they were friends/co-workers before the EA/PA). After reading the post a bundle of questions came immediately to my mind and I could feel the anxiety building within me. My first reaction was to try to call my W at work – not to ask her questions (at least I hope that I would not have relapsed so quickly) but just to talk about that emotion, to vent, to have someone listen to me. I wasn’t able to talk to her. About 30 minutes later the triggers have faded and I feel calmer. I feel less concerned as to whether the phase post-PA was indeed still an EA or not – I tell myself that it’s in the past and that trying to understand that won’t help me at all, it will just frustrate me and hurt my W. I am glad that I didn’t talk to my W about this when the triggers were still raw, the risk of dumping questions on her would have been too high. I am slowly learning that I need to let those triggers fade before I act on them. The challenge will be to manage those triggers when I am actually ‘with’ her, in the same room, possibly even holding her in my arms. This is going to require a lot of self-control.

On another note I think that maybe I should avoid reading other threads – they can turn into a source of triggers and I really don’t need that right now.

Great! Good for you. We're rooting for you! Other threads can be triggers, but can also be sources of inspiration.

I've notices too that reading other threads triggers some unwanted emotions. I think i should stop too.

Yep sometimes I will read the first few lines and quickly close it. I just don't want more negativity, stories about deception, etc. But it's true that others stories are inspiring as well - sometimes the title can be a good indication of the content - other times we have to be disciplined enough to stop reading if it's negative.

I understand about the reading of other threads- it's a trigger for me too for feelings of guilt as well, even just being the FWW.

I think you did well with this last challenge. Oftentimes if we wait before we freak out about something then we often come to the realization its not as urgent as we think it is.

Personally I think it's normal to miss someones friendship. I miss various same sex friendships I've had over the years. That doesn't mean I want to have sex with them.

Would it interest you to know that I still have limited contact with OM because of business dealings?? But yet that I've never not once had a craving to reindulge our relationship whatsoever?? I have several reasons-
First of all I'm remarried now- and I can fully understand how devastated my husband would be if I ever did that (he was a BH in his former marriage). Also, I don't want to- have no desire- zip zero nada- to go back down that road- because of the pain, the remorse that I felt afterwards, and the hurt I inflicted on his family by my actions (his wife has forgiven us both). I look back on that time with sadness and regret- at the damage that was done to both of us personally, professional, morally etc as well as what was done to both of our families as a result of our poor choices. I know I will never be a WW again, because literally I would rather die than feel like that ever again.

Your wife is far along on her journey having been out of contact with OM to not be in withdrawal. Many FWW's here are still in withdrawal from the affair, and want to contact- thus I'd try and think about that when I read those threads.

Actually my W told me the exact same thing – she would rather die than go through this again. She says that the A was the most difficult and painful time of her life. She has ‘learned her lessons’ and is convinced that she will never cheat again. As you can imagine, I really want to believe that and I hope that she is right.


I know that she is not in ‘withdrawal’ now and she has absolutely no desire to contact him. When I told the OMW about the A, the OM sent my W an angry email – she didn’t open it, deleted it right away, and called me to let me know. She also said that she would tell me if he ever tried to contact her again.

But I “think” that she may have experienced withdrawal immediately after the PA when they each moved to a different state, although it is difficult to know for sure as the end of their PA also coincided with several other factors such as: new job, new house, move, leaving friends and co-workers behind, traveling H, etc.

Bottom line she admits that she was depressed for two or three months after we moved. She keeps telling me that, as far as the OM was concerned, she was just missing the ‘friendship and companionship’ – and she will mention all the other factors as elements of that depression (although she doesn’t know in what proportion they each contributed to what she was feeling). After the move, they would talk to each other on the phone once or twice a week and this for a few months. At one point, out of the blue, the OM apparently told her not to call him anymore and that was the end of it. She mentioned that when she received that email, she just felt ‘stupid’. That was back in 11/2005. They haven’t spoken since.

After the PA, my W says that they never talked about what happened, never even brought it up. It was as if nothing had happened. They would just talk about their work, patients, etc – as they were supposedly doing before the whole A ever started. She did mention once that after the PA she had ‘feelings’ for him but that they faded quickly. I don’t know what kind of “feelings” – if she was still just talking about ‘friendship’ or something more.

The emotional journey that she went through is difficult for me to understand. She will say that she never “loved” him, that she never thought about leaving me, or never wanted him to leave his W; just that they were good friends and that she liked to spend time with him. She also said that her feelings for him would run “hot and cold” whatever that means.

She apparently didn’t initiate the A (i.e. didn’t make the first move) but she completely accepts her responsibility in it and doesn’t blame it for any of it. She still cannot explain “why” it happened or “why” she went along with it – other maybe than saying that she was “tempted” and couldn’t resist it. I guess that for me I would like to understand the level of emotional involvement that she had with this guy but it’s a really difficult nut to crack and at this point I don’t know if I will ever really be able to put my arms around it. Also with this agreement that I shouldn't ask questions about the events themselves, I don't know if this is even a subject that I should approach. Any ideas?

Have you asked her what she thinks attributed to her feeling that her needs weren't being met?? Or what she was feeling about your marriage at the time of the A??

This is more relational than drilling with questions.

I think perhaps she might have alot of insight into why she did what she did or is perhaps starting to, however it may be that she doesn't feel safe sharing that with you? Or it could be that actually there weren't any feelings and that she didn't really care that much for him.

I think that all of that might come with time. I think it will take her some time to come to terms with everything- I'm a good bit further than she is and it took me a long time to come to terms with it all, what exactly I thought made me do it, etc.

Is she doing individual counseling?? I think that would be a great idea.

Yes I did. She tells me that she felt lonely, she felt that I wasn’t interested in her, that there was no ‘room for her in my head’, she felt that I was consumed by my own worries and my own life. I still remember that one night, we were laying down in bed – I was falling asleep and she woke me up asking me if I still wanted to be married to her. She got very emotional, cried, and told me that she felt lonely. About a year prior to the A, she approached me about some of those feelings again, it was difficult for her to talk about this. She told me that she felt kind of invisible around me, she could come home after a day at work and I wouldn’t really acknowledge her, and I wouldn’t try to ‘connect’ with her even for a few minutes (e.g. giving her a hug, a kiss, ask her how her day went, etc.). She really wasn’t asking for much but apparently I wasn’t able to correct the behavior, or at least not sustain the improvement. I think that she would agree with this description.

I don’t know and I find it difficult (maybe even dangerous) to theorize about her feelings for him. I can only go based on what she has told me so far: I didn’t love him (even though once when I was drilling on this topic she asked me to ‘define’ love), we were good friends, afterwards I missed the friendship and companionship but not the physical aspect of the relationship, I like to be with him less once the A started, this was a horrible period of my life, I still had some feeling for him after the PA but they faded quickly, I was tempted and couldn’t resist, I never thought that my relationship with him would go anywhere, I didn’t want to leave you and I didn’t him to leave his W, I didn’t want this to happen and I didn’t plan for it, there were some pleasurable aspects to our relationship but I was feeling very bad about the whole thing, etc.

No she isn’t. Actually during our last session, the MC advised against it. He said that we needed to learn to talk to each other about our feelings and emotions without necessarily having to include a third party. I think that he really wants to teach us to open up to each other and share how we feel – maybe to become self-sufficient along those lines. That’s what he wants to focus our sessions on.

To me all of this sounds like if you give her your love, attention and respect she will be there for you forever, loving and devoted. My husband also said that he thought that I lost interest in him (more in physical aspect). Which was true because I felt I also tried to talk to him about this without success and I gave up. I think chances were that I would have an A before him but I was obsessed with the baby and was not interested.

I think you really have a chance for a very happy life together. Think about people who live all their lives and never figure it out and never fix it. May be that's the price for happiness? May be it was meant to be. I feel that if I survive this I'll be stronger then ever.


PS: Every time I post - I feel the urge to enroll into the intensive English course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Well at the very least I think it’s fair to see the A as a ‘turning point’, the question is the direction it leads to: destruction or improvement. Regardless it’s a very high price to pay and the outcome is unfortunately not guaranteed. I still often wonder if I can ever be happy with my W again, if I can ever truly forgive her for what she did, and refocus on her qualities rather than this terrible mistake. Infidelity must be quite a burden to bear in a relationship and I am worried that it will wear me down. I often feel overwhelmed just thinking about these things and the effort that it will require not only to get over the A but all to fix the issues that led to it.

Yet I feel compelled to go down that path with her – I think about our children, about the wonderful memories I have with her, about the happiness that she has given me, about our history together and our future. I want to think that I didn’t make a mistake 13 years ago when I married her, I want to think that she is still the woman of my life and will always be. Part of me is also so excited thinking about the improvements we could make in our relationships: more affection, better SF, more complicity, better friendship – those are carrots at the end of the stick for me! I know that I have had wonderful times with this woman and I would love to live those again.

You’re too hard on yourself!

As far as the IC- I just think it's important to understand why she had the A- for her recovery. It seems though, based on your comments, that she has a pretty good grasp on that.

I could have written those same statements about my marriage before the A.

I was at the bottom of a very long list of priorities- that were hobbies, job, TV, kids, home maintenance, wife. I felt that I was only wanted as a housekeeper, nanny, bookkeeper and bed mate.

When you talk about forgiving her the affair it almost seems as if you believe in some ways your actions were better than hers. You need to wrap your head around the fact that it was all sin- the neglect- the porn- the affair. Pretty much equal. People place a higher cost on certain aspects of sins- such as infidelity is higher than others but actually it's all sin. If you're putting yourself up on a higher moral pedestal and your wife below well then certainly there is going to be some issues there.

You did not make a mistake 13 years ago. Your wife is the same person who carried your children and attended to every other aspect of your life earlier- you two just got lost along the way from each other.

Well I think that she recognizes the environment we were in before the A, although she has never blamed the A on it. Now I think that it is fair to say that this environment, combined with the friendship with the OM, having the opportunities to be alone together, the OM making the first move, etc - all made the A possible. Now, "why" did she give herself the permission to do it? "Why" didn't she put an end to it earlier? That I don't know for sure. But I assume that there were some pleasant aspects to it obviously (attention, excitement, etc.) that motivated her enough to keep going. She will say that it was the ‘worst time of her life’, ‘the biggest mistake of her life’ and that she wasn’t doing a lot of thinking at the time. Sometimes I wonder if there could be really more to it than just that. I mean we know that the environment was not good; we know that our relationship needed improvement, and then basically she made a stupid mistake that she says she deeply regrets and never wants to repeat. I don’t have experience with IC but I wonder what the IC could add to that.

Believe me, I know I am no angel and I know that I contributed to the situation. Actually in many ways I still believe that overall she is more honest and has stronger moral values than I do. My problem is not that I think that I am better than her. My problem is that through her actions, she took a huge risk on our family (marriage, children, etc.) – that’s the part that is hard to accept.

Yes and I desperately want us to find each other again.

Okay, well let me put it this way.

Did your wife have a problem with you viewing porn??

To alot of women, porn is a form of infidelity- because you're sexually pleasing yourself sometimes while watching it.

If she had a problem with the porn and viewed it as a form of adultery and you indulged in that full knowing that- wouldn't that be kind of like you taking a huge risk as well?

If that was a deal breaker for her? And you did it anyway?

Have you studied addiction at all? The affair is like an addiction at the time it's going on. That explains alot about why a person would risk everything to get that- they do the same for drugs.

I'm not sure why I'm so affected by your thread and why I keep coming back over and over to offer my .02. Perhaps it's because I too was married 13 years when I had my A etc.

I hope the two of you find each other again.

Coachswife - we are talking about a difficult topic here and swimming in deep waters. What constitutes infidelity, what constitutes sin, are there degrees of sin, etc?

When I told my W about the porn (note that in this case I wouldn't talk about an addiction - I don't feel the need to do this, at all costs), she really didn't say much. I think that she saw it as pale in comparison to the A she has just admitted to. Since my admission she hasn't brought up the topic again. Maybe she will once the dust settles on the A. But so far I don't get the impression that this is a 'deal breaker' for her or that she considers it a form of infidelity.

I haven't studied addiction at all so I can't comment on that. I will take your word for it.

Thanks for trying to help me out. Hopefully this is not too much of a frustrating experience for you. I appreciate your concern and your guidance.

I agree that it's a difficult topic....

You will see here though that alot of BS's talk about the affair being a sort of addiction.

I feel that for a very long time there has been a huge gap between my SF needs and what my W was willing to provide. From my point of view, the rejection that I would feel when she would say the dreaded ‘not tonight’ always triggered some frustration and even some anger that would fuel a vicious circle: the more angry and frustrated I was, the less affectionate I was with my W, the more we were getting ‘emotionally disconnected’, and the less interested she became in SF. Bringing up SF at night was even becoming a source of stress for her as she knew that if she refused it would trigger the frustration and anger.

Since D-Day another dimension has been added to this problem: jealousy. In the first few weeks after D-Day we did go through a phase of ‘hysterical bounding’, I still think that we made love more often during that period than during the last 6 months before D-Day. But now it’s slowing down quite a bit. The night before last I got a ‘I am too tired’, last night I got a ‘I am not in the mood’, etc. Just as before I still feel rejected, which creates frustration and anger. But now I am also jealous. I am telling myself ‘I wonder if she ever told the OM no’, ‘how come she doesn’t want to make love to me but she made love to him for a whole week during their PA’, etc. That makes the whole rejection ever more difficult to handle.

From my W’s point of view she tells me that it is very difficult to be intimate with me when we have been fighting or arguing during the day. She tells me that she can’t go from a fight during the day to SF in the evening. She also told me last night that we will never be able to compete with the ‘fantasy’ that I am imagining about her A. She keeps telling me that it will take time and that we need to reestablish a strong emotional bond between us, then she thinks that we will see some improvements in SF. As for me I am still stuck with the fact that the lack of SF makes me frustrated which in turns makes it difficult to reestablish that emotional bound. Sometimes I feel that I am just being nice to her so that maybe I can get some SF at night – and when I don’t get it I feel frustrated again. I know that she is probably right about having to rebuild a strong emotional connection but I struggle with this frustration. I really feel stuck here. I really feel that I am facing a dilemma. I guess that it’s good that we are talking about this but I just don’t know how to solve this problem. PLEASE HELP!

I see this yet again as the struggle I experienced in my own marriage. We were kind of in the same cycle. I felt like he was only being nice to me when he wanted SF. I couldn't connect to him emotionally so I felt like I couldn't connect to him sexually.

I agree with her that it's hard for us to want to have SF when we've been fighting with our partners. I think God just made us that way. We can't switch those emotions off when it comes to SF.

I think it would be a good idea to explain to her that SF is how you connect to her emotionally and how that makes you feel loved?? Have you tried that one on one? If so try it in front of the marriage counselor.

I think your reactions to being jealous are normal and understandable. It must be painful for you. On the other hand, she is probably right that you're building the A up as a fantasy of thie wild unbridled sex when it probably wasn't that way.

When it comes down to it, you guys are at a standstill. I won't meet her needs for emotional connection because she is not meeting mine for SF. That starts a very dangerous spiral where things can happen that shouldn't. It's very important to meet each others EN's in the context of marriage. Has she agreed to fill out the EN's questionaire? Have you filled yours out and really sat down and gone over them?? That may help as well, as well as making a committment to go about making a plan to work on those.

Also, at some point you have to decide who is going to be the hero in the relationship?? Who is going to be the first to offer resolution to the issues? It's fine to sit back and say it's not going to be you- but that might not work out the way you want it to.

Yes I believe I have. I have told her that SF makes me feel desired and special, that it makes me feel warm inside. The lack of SF makes me feel rejected, insecure, and triggers many feelings of frustration and anger. This is something that I was planning to bring up to the MC though because I really think that this has been one of our core issues for quite some time – in my view that’s an issue that significantly contributed to the emotional disconnect that we had before the A, it continued to worsen between the A and D-Day, and that we are still struggling with it since D-Day now with the added dimension of ‘jealousy’. This is definitely a key stressor for us.

Yes I totally agree with you. I feel that we are in a complete deadlock right now and have been for quite some time. We still haven’t been able to find a solution that works for the two of us. The problem is that it has pushed us to seek satisfaction outside the M (A for her, porn for me) and will probably keep to do so (she may be vulnerable to another A, or maybe I will).

Yes we did that a couple of weeks after D-Day and we went over each other’s questionnaire. But we failed to make a plan or commit to meeting each other’s ENs. We basically just said what our most important ENs were and we kind of left it there.

Yes I think that you’re really hitting the nail on the head there.

I just wanted to give you a little update on my weekend. We had a very rough start on Saturday morning. I think that it all started when we were still laying in bed – I wanted to touch my W and be intimate with her – all that she wanted was sleep and my touch was bothering her as it was waking her up. Then my children starting coming into the room and I knew that my chances to be intimate with my W were completely shot. That frustration and feeling of rejection quickly turned into some anger and I became distant. I took my shower, got dressed and went downstairs to have breakfast. Shortly thereafter we took my little one to a morning activity – I barely spoke to my W on the way and she could tell that I was very pissed off. At the activity, we didn’t speak. It stayed that way for the whole morning until the early afternoon when we finally talked about what happened. She felt that she had done absolutely nothing wrong and she didn’t understand why I was mad at her for wanting to sleep. It eventually turned into a big argument and she ended up crying. After a little while our emotions came down. Later that afternoon she came next to me and was flirting with me, the next thing I knew we were making love. For me that completely changed my feelings for the rest of the day – I was now feeling loved, desired, special and in turn I became calmer, nicer, patient, more affectionate – and the rest of the day and evening went very well. Yesterday (Sunday) morning we made love again and we had a ‘perfect’ day. We were affectionate, close, and both felt great. I was very nice to her all day and made her favorite dish for dinner. In the evening my W even said that she almost forgot about our problems for a while and she thanked me for everything I had done for her that day. I had a good day too – I did have a couple of triggers during the day but I didn’t talk to her about them (I mostly didn't want to ruin the mood) and they eventually went away. It is interesting for me to see the impact that SF has on my moods. When there is SF I really feel that one of my most important ENs has been met and I feel so good inside that I want to meet hers and make her feel good too. However if SF is not met, it triggers a chain reaction of negative emotions that I still have a very hard time managing – it almost turns into a nasty LB. The power it has on my mood and emotions worries me.

I spoke with my W about this - she will usually tell me that it is easier for her to be intimate with me if I am nice to her and if she doesn't feel pressured. She says that the more pressure she feels, the less she wants SF - she mentioned feelings of 'stress' and 'performance anxiety'.

She called me this morning and thanked me again for yesterday. She seems up-beat and happy. She told me that she was looking forward to spending the evening with me. When we were on the phone I told her that I had a few triggers over the weekend and explained that they are still difficult for me to manage and recover from. I told her that they affect my moods and that she shouldn't be surprised if I suddenly become somber and maybe 30 minutes later I am back to normal. She seemed to understand that.

Hmmmmm, in reading this, I think it would be easy to get into a pattern to where your wife feels that she's only useful if you guys are having SF. And you don't want that. It might be a good idea to discuss with your MC how you can go about defeating the feeling that your needs must be met first before you can meet hers.

Ideally, it should be about one to the other thinking "What can I do today to make my spouse happy?" and concentrating on the other person more than you do yourself.

Coachswife - yes you're right, the pattern is obvious and predictable. Bottom line if I get SF, the chances are that I will be nice and affectionate, and if I don’t the chances are that I will be distant and will start firing a few LBs. Her saying no to SF has basically turned into a very powerful trigger, once that not only brings me back to the A but also to feelings of jealousy and insecurity with all the negative thinking that they usually generate. Note that this trigger is not ‘new’, i.e. wasn’t a direct result of the A, I feel that I have had it for a while; the A has just made it more powerful.

Your advice about “What can I do today to make my spouse happy?" is definitely the way to go – but it’s not easy – hard to break out of the selfish and protective behavior, mostly when you have been hurt and betrayed.

Have you been able to avoid the questioning? You are definitely being stretched here. Being selfless is hard even when circumstances are good, but when you have been betrayed, it is so much harder. But you have already decided that recovery is that path you want to stay on right? Well, this is the hard path of recovery. I'm on it too so I know it is not easy. I'm really greatful for this forum though.

Intention - I am glad to report that I haven't done ANY QUESTIONING WHATSOEVER since April 4, the date of our last MC session. I have really stuck to that plan and I am sure that my W is relieved not to be confronted with those questions all the time. Now I haven't been 'perfect' since April 4 either - at times I have been angry, frustrated, distant, etc. - but I am trying my best.

Great news! Good for you Asterix. Don't try to be perfect. Just try to be better than yesterday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We have two wonderful kids, 6 and 3. A couple of years ago my W was already talking about having a third child and at the time I really wasn’t interested. We then put the ‘topic’ aside for a long time – my W being very sad that she may never have another child again. Since D-Day the ‘topic’ is back. My W tells me that she would love to have another baby (she also says that she is already 35 and time is running out) and I just don’t know what to do. Part of me would like to have another child as well but I am worried that this is the wrong time to talk about this. We are only 2 months post D-Day and I am afraid that we are undertaking more than we can manage. I feel that we should let the dust settle on the whole A and be well into R before we start talking about another baby. I am also afraid: what if R fails (another child will be hurt now)? What if she has another A and we end up splitting up? I just feel that the A has proven that our M was not that strong (and needs some serious work) so why would I bring a third child into this and risk the happiness of a third person? I would appreciate some perspective on this whole thing. My gut just tells me that we should wait.

Conventional wisdom is to postpone all major decisions during a time of significan emotional upheaval and stress. Dealing with an A and embarking on your R definitely falls into that category. I totally understand your concerns and fears, they are not irrational. Can you communicate exactly what you have written in your post above to your W? You need to POJA this decision.

Personally, I would want to wait too. I think your W is probably ready for something else (e.g. a pregnancy) to replace the A as the focus of your relationship right now.

My take on the baby thing:

I am a FWW and my H started talking about a second child in the first week after D-day (and we had a 2 month old at the moment). I was shocked at his expressed desire for another child immediately after learning of my A (which had ended more than a year prior) but after thinking about it think I understand why he reacted in that way. Maybe your wife is reintroducing the idea of expanding your brood as a way of reaching out to you.

She may feel that having another child with you will show you how committed she is to your recovery and that it will "prove" to you that she loves you and wants to continue with you. Maybe she feels that your willingness to make that commitment with her would also "prove" to her that you really do want to make it work as well.

When my H said he wanted to go ahead and have another it made me realize that he was really serious about sticking around and working through things. It meant to me that he really still loved me and was willing to hedge his bets on our relationship enough to involve another little person in our life.

While I do want another baby with my H one day the only reasons I entertained the idea so soon after the first and just days after D-Day were those listed above.

I ran to the doc to start birth control to be sure it didn't happen right now. He ultimately agreed with me that we should wait and that a pregnancy would only make me more stressed and hormonal (remember howt that was with your first two?) and could make our recovery more difficult.

I know that she is probably worried that it is now or never because of her age, so understand that she may honestly feel that is what is causing her sense of urgency. Let her know that you love her. That you know she loves you. And that she doesn't have to bear you another child to prove that.

Point out to her that this is a time where you need her to be strong for you. That she may not be able to do that if she's pregnant. And that you want to be there for her (her rock to lean on) if/when you do decide to enlarge your family.

Just my thoughts...

Best of luck to you.

DW

I think that putting a timeframe on that decision is a good idea. But reaching a solid joint agreement on that plan will be challenging.

I know that in her mind she keeps thinking about her age and the risks involved in waiting any longer to have another child. She also knows that it may take a while to get pregnant (she was mentioning ‘up to one year’) and she is factoring that in. Note that OB/GYN is her field so she knows all the ins and outs, risks, statistics, etc as she faces them every day. I don’t know how she will take it if I ask her to wait another year before we try to have another child. I think that she will feel that she has waited a long time already and that time is running out. She is seeing a window of opportunity closing very quickly and probably feels that waiting another year may be equivalent to deciding not to have another child.

Note that, IMO, none of this is directly related to the A itself. A lot of these discussions and concerns were already voiced before the A took place – but they were then put on the ‘back burner’ for a while, so much so that I think that she was convinced I was just not interested in having another baby at all. Discussions about another baby resurfaced soon after D-Day. I think that we were in a ‘hysterical bounding’ phase and our children representing such a strong bond and source of joy for us made it almost natural to bring up the ‘other baby’ again. I really don’t think that she considers having another child as a ‘fix’, evidence of commitment, proof of love, etc. That’s just something she really wants to do, and has always wanted to do. At least that’s my take on it.

At this time I find myself in somewhat of a catch 22, a classic ‘damn if you do, damn if you don’t’ situation.

Pros of having a child:

• A third bundle of joy in our lives
• ‘Making the baby’ could put SF in hyper-drive (one of my top ENs)
• It will make my W very happy
• It could add the very positive dimension to our R, focusing on our future together

Cons of having a child (right now):

• Two months post D-Day I am still obviously dealing with strong issues of trust and concerns that our R will fail
• I doubt that we are in the right state of mind to make such a decision with clarity. My W still dealing with shame, guilt, feeling of worthlessness over the A. I, on the other hand, still struggling with severe mood swings, anger, frustration, etc.
• We haven’t reached POJA on this one
• Pregnancy could negatively affect R: more tired, moody, hormonal changes, etc.
• I am worried that saying no to a child ‘right now’ will negatively affect our R: will she be more distant, less affectionate, less interested in intimacy, SF, etc.? Basically less able to meet my ENs, and less open to letting me meet hers?

Writing down the pros and cons shows me that the ‘cons’ could be resolved over time. It reinforces the thought that giving more time and focus to our R right now could, over time, offset the ‘cons’ and make the ‘pros’ even stronger, probably making it a lot easier for us to reach POJA on this important topic. But the first step is to reach POJA on the plan (e.g. invest a year in R before making another baby) in the first place.

My W and I ended up talking for quite a bit this morning about the ‘baby’ and I am not so sure that I like the way the conversation went. From her point of view, she has wanted a third child for quite some time before the A but she had the impression that I had given her a ‘categorical no’ and that I was absolutely not interested, not then or in the future. After D-Day, she felt that I was more open to the idea, and she sensed an opportunity to have a third baby. She told me that she loved me, wanted to spend the rest of her life with me, believed in us, and therefore she saw no ‘risk’ in having a third baby with me and enlarging our family. She also brought up the question of the ‘biological clock’ again and reinforced the fact that the longer we wait, the more unlikely we will be to have a normal pregnancy (risks, complications, infertility, etc). I explained to her that for the time being we should really concentrate on each other, rebuild our relationship and our M, and that I was worried that a pregnancy/birth during R would possibly be distracting, not giving the time, energy, and focus to deal with our issues. I really don’t think that she bought that. Quite the contrary actually, she feels that the pregnancy would be a positive element of R, and she doesn’t think that her being pregnant would distract form R at all or make her less able to focus on me/us. However she feels that I want to wait because I am still not sure that I want her in my life anymore. She thinks that I am buying time to see how things work out between us. She says that I am afraid of the potential tragedy of a ‘third child’s heart being broken by parents splitting up’. So now she questions my motivation for wanting to wait. She did say however that ‘waiting’ wouldn’t be such a problem if we didn’t have the biological clock ticking (‘It wouldn’t be a problem if I was still 24’, she said). She asks me “what would happen if you decide that we should have a baby in two or three years and we can no longer have one?”. We went back and forth on this for quite some time. After much conversation she eventually told me that she understood my concerns and would wait for my ‘consent’. She said that she wouldn’t want to get pregnant without my full agreement. So she said “just tell me when you think that you are ready – but stop changing your mind – it’s too difficult for me when you give me hope and then take it away”. So does she buy into it? Not really. Will she go along with the plan? Probably. But I seriously doubt that this is POJA. That’s why I told her that I wanted to talk about this until we reached an agreement that we both believed in. I don’t want this to turn into a WIN-LOSE situation where she either gets her way or I get mine.

Asterix,

Just some thoughts on your last post. It seems to me perspective is required here. With your indulgence could a put a few words in your mouth and see what you think.

I guess if I was speaking with your W there are a few things I would point out.

The first is that I (you) would enjoy having a third child. (you indicated that was the case). So I (you) am in agreement with her about that.

Next, I (you) know that while the clock is ticking, it is NOT ticking as loud as W is making out because this would be the 3rd child. Therefore, there is much less risk at this age. Further, given the modern medical care and yes modern diet women have a high rate of successful pregnancies into their 40's. The data is there. So perhaps waiting a year is not that big of a deal. If this was the first child then more concern, but again not a lot.

If I were talking for you, I would point out that I don't want to feel pressured about this right now. There are several reasons. The first is that she has had 9 months to address this situation and I (you) have only had 2 months. The next reason is that she does not have to rebuild trust because I (you) did not break that trust. She knows I will be faithful. I on the other hand need to rebuild trust.

What I would tell her next will shock her. I need to build trust in myself, that I am a good enough husband for her, that I can meet her needs, that I can love her as I want and need to. I need to trust that I am good enough in bed to satisfy her so that she will not have another affair. I need to trust that I can get me emotions under control, and let go of the anger, the fear, the jealousy, and the pure pain of it.

What she would hear is that I want to trust her, but even if I trusted her completely my lack of trust in myself makes healing a requirement, and I have only had 2 months.

Finally, I would point out to her that men and women see children slightly differently. Women carry them, bond with them, and focus on them. There hormones change because of the children. So there is no way she will be focused on the marriage as the natural thing for women to do is focus on taking care of the children and the coming child, feathering the nest so to speak. So I know she will NOT focus on our issues. Further, for men having their W pregnant serves no emotional purpose, it does not lift us, it does not alter our hormones. It does bring financial concerns and worries about whether or not we can handle another child. And right now it puts me (you) at risk.

She needs to step back just a second and realize that while I would like another child, I am NOT healthy enough to have another child, and because I am not healthy enough, neither is the marriage.

Asteric, that is what I would tell your W about my thoughts of having another child. If she really wanted another child before the A, having the A was NOT a good choice for her to make because it wrecked you and you now need to heal and regain confidence and trust in yourself as a husband, lover, father.

Just some thoughts. Perhaps this will help shape your discussions with her on this. I agree with you, that her becoming pregnant right now, will NOT help the marriage. It may well lead to you having a lot of resentment. And resentment will NOT make you a better father.

Must go,

God Bless,

JL

JustLearning – these are very strong points and they correctly reflect my current state of mind. I do indeed think that I am our biggest R risk at this time. I am struggling with many insecurities (some of which existed before the A but were reinforced by the A), and many other painful emotions (anger, fear, jealousy, anxiety, triggers, etc.). I also still have very ambivalent feelings about my W – some time feeling so much love and affection for her, other times feeling so disgusted for what she did and wanting to retaliate (e.g. separate, have my own A, etc.).

At this point I believe that things will eventually work out but this roller coaster of emotions is still very unsettling and make its very difficult to make any long term commitments/decisions like having another child. I would also be concerned about my true motivations at this point for deciding to have a child or not. My emotional state is so unstable that I worry that I would say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ for the wrong reasons and would end up resenting my decision in the end.

For instance if I had to list the reasons for saying ‘yes’, I would probably include: make my W happy (and benefit from that happiness), increased frequency in SF while ‘making’ the baby, and strengthen our bond (and as I write this I realize that it would not help since our two wonderful children didn’t prevent her from having an A in the first place).

I still want to stick to my proposed plan to ‘wait a while longer’. I was also thinking that it would be a good idea to bring up this topic during MC.

I just got the confirmation that I was going back to Europe in early May for another business trip. My W asked me if it was still ok for her to come with me (see post #2969692) and of course I said yes. I hope that she will be able to get the vacation she needs to make it happen. She is really excited and I think that the trip will give us some great quality time to focus on each other without the usual distractions. Of course I will have some work to do but I should be able to free up some time to do some sightseeing and we will have all our evenings together. For me it will also be great to have some company on the plane and in the hotel room at night, I usually feel so lonely on those trips. The last time I traveled by myself (see post #2980073), things didn’t go very well and I ended up arguing with my W over the phone several times that week. I sincerely hope that this trip can contribute to our healing. Any suggestions/recommendations?

Good news. That is a great opportunity. Definitely try to get a few personal days for sightseeing etc., but don't make your schedule too full or hectic else it will end up being more stressful and less relaxing. The physical and cultural change of location should also be a good break for the both of you.

Be spontaneous. Treat the time you have together as though you were first dating. Laugh, dance, drink. Court her all over again. Work to give her those same good feelings you used to give her way back when you first laid eyes on each other. I'd be willing to bet that it does some good.

...and DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED. You may be thinking about what she could be doing while you're off working and she is at the hotel all alone or wandering the streets, but remember:

Energy flows where attention goes.

Put your attention on to positive things you'll want to do with (or to) her that evening and you'll find yourself worrying less about what could be happening in a very remote circumstance and thinking more about what WILL be happening when you're off duty and ready to go!

Good luck!

I am growing increasingly worried about what is known as the ‘anger’ phase. I am two months post D-Day right now. So far it has been a roller coaster ride of emotions with some good days and some very bad days, and sometimes with some good ‘hours’ and some very bad ‘hours’ within the same day (mood swings). My feelings have gone from hopeful/happy, to sad/depressed, to angry/frustrated. Based on what I have read on this forum and others, this is perfectly normal. But I keep hearing from others that I am still to experience the dreaded ‘anger phase’. As far as I am concerned I am already angry and I have been angry ever since I found out about the A. I have had some significant angry outbursts, lashed out at my W (verbally), thrown things around, called her names, etc (and this very early after D-day). What defines the ‘anger’ phase, how is it different from what I have already experienced? What should I expect? I am worried about this phase, not only because of the emotions I am likely to experience (I am already tired of this whole thing) but also because of the impact that it could have on my W and therefore on our R. Does everyone experience the anger phase a few months after D-Day, is it possible that I am already there?

Hi asterix,

I have no knowledge of the anger phase so I'm hoping someone else will chime in here, I just wanted to say hi and that I think you've been doing well lately.

Hey asterix, here's an interesting article on that. LINK

Here's a quote "We don't have to go through the stages in sequence. We can skip a stage or go through two or three simultaneously."

Hope this is helpful.

coachswife - thanks. Things are indeed 'ok'. I don't know if I would say that I have been doing well but let's just say that I have had worst days - and I guess that it's an improvement.

Asterix - I just read some of your posts and I think our situations sound very similar.

Like you, my needs for SF have not been met by my W for a long time. Also like you, I got pissed about it all the time and basically withdrew, acted disappointed in her, gave her the silent treatment etc. I wasn't very nice.

This went on for probably 15 years. When she did give me what I wanted I would be very nice, affectionate etc. for a short time. When she didn't, I wouldn't be.

My behavior took it's toll on her and she ultimately concluded I didn't care. So she had a short EA. I think it would have been a PA except that I found out very quickly. Not my fault, but I contributed to it.

Before that even happened, however, we decided to make a schedule for SF. While it has some definite disadvantages, it does solve the "getting mad over SF" issue to a large extent since you know what to expect and when.

Don't get me wrong, it hasn't solved all our problems by a long shot - I feel a lot like you - very pissed, not sure I want to be here etc. - but at least it solved that one sort of.

Oh my goodness!!! I didn't think that anyone could know exactly what I was going through. Your post and your expressions in them are exactly what I'm going through now with my husband. I want to be around him all the time now as well and if he's not around I let me mind wonder to crazy things and when I see him I'm so angry that all I can do is argue and accuse him of things. He cheated on my and conceived a baby out of the deal so the rebuilding is going to be a major reconstruction of our relationship. I want him to go but at the same time I want him to stay--how confusing is that. He will answer certain things as well but when I continue to ask the same questions figuring that if he has left something out then maybe this time he will say something that he hadn't said before and then it will give a clear mind about leaving him. I do want to know everything about the affair but still I know that by knowing it will only add to my anger. I don't know what to do.

Hey Asterix...got an update? How are you doing?

Intention – thanks for checking on me, I appreciate it. I guess that overall I am doing a bit better. My W and I are still going to MC, once a week, and it’s helping us a lot. I think that we found a good counselor. I guess that one of my biggest achievements over the last few weeks has been my ability to stop questioning my W about the A. Actually I haven’t asked her a single question about it for at least 10 days and surprisingly enough I am not worse off because of it. My W appreciates the effort; she is now more comfortable around me which is also helping our R.

I have also made a big effort to be more positive and concentrate on the present and future rather than focus on the A.. I still face triggers every now and then during the day but I am learning to manage them better and they eventually dissipate. Overall I think that there has been an improvement in my moods and overall behavior but I feel that I am still not out of the woods yet. There is still plenty of anger and frustration in me and I am not always very successful at managing them. My W senses that and her natural reaction is to distance herself from it. Still we are still working together on R and the overall trend has been one of improvement.

My relationship with my W is okay. I think that the phase of ‘hysterical bounding’ is ending, to my chagrin – but in a way that also is slowly coming back to normal. We are making an effort to spend more time together, playing games, enjoying the kids, holding each other while watching TV, etc. I am also taking her on a business trip to Europe in a few weeks, just the two of us, we should be able to have some nice quality time. Yesterday evening, before MC, I took her out to dinner. It was nice, pleasant, simple and we both enjoyed it. We are also going to church every week together now – it’s in all these little things that we are trying to reestablish some closeness between us and some normalcy in our lives.

FYI - I have also been discussing my 'anger' in another thread: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2990285

You've come a long way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear you seem to have gotten past the questioning. I think you guys are on the right track. The weekly MC must be great. My FWW only went twice. I'll check out your other thread...

Yes ending the questioning was a bit step for me and quite an improvement from my FWW’s perspective. I have come to believe that, after a while, my questions were no longer asked to gain information but to be comforted or to punish my W. I find that they were often associated with my triggers. For instance I would get a trigger, the trigger would generate a bunch of questions in my mind, and I would immediately start questioning my W (either to verify the accuracy of the trigger, or to get back at her for the pain that the trigger was causing). By learning to manage my triggers better, i.e. let them dissipate without responding to them right away, I am also managing the questioning.

Something I am still struggling with right now is the stability of my emotions. I am still moody and even though I try to manage my triggers, they still affect my behavior. In those cases my W immediately sees that something has changed – she reads my body language, my tone, my look. At this point her natural tendency is to distance herself from me at those times. She will hesitate to come close to me and be affectionate as she is still worried that I will lash out at her as I have in the past. I understand that my behavior doesn’t invite closeness but at the same time I often feel that her affection at those times would help me improve my mood faster. I guess that over time she will see that she can come close to me when I am like that without any kind of negative consequences. I have told her that I needed her attention and affection at those times, but it’s still difficult for her to ‘come into the lions’ den’ without fear.

This morning, as I was getting ready for work, I had a big trigger – thinking about their PA, and imaging the passion and intensity of their love making, probably having sex for hours, with more enthusiasm than she has shown me in years (note that my W has told me before that we couldn’t compete with my “imagination” about their PA). That trigger almost made me noxious. My reaction was to come to her (she was still in bed) and ask her for a big hug. She asked me what was going on and if I was sad – I just told her that I was sad but that I didn’t want to talk about it (I didn’t want to make her feel bad by talking about the trigger I just had and spoil the day). I then told her that I wanted to make love to her – and she told me that she didn’t feel like it. That ‘rejection’ added another trigger on top of the other. I was now asking myself why she would do it with him in the morning and not with me. Anger, frustration, and insecurities came back to the surface immediately. She could obviously see that I was disappointed and her body language changed, she crossed her arms and started looking away from me. At those times she is worried that the ‘rejection’ will cause me to be disappointed and will actually worsen my mood. She is right. In order to avoid any nasty comments, I kissed her, got up, and kept getting ready for work. It was apparent that I was not happy and that I was disappointed, but I said goodbye and left. It took a while this morning for those two consecutive triggers to dissipate, literally a couple of hours. I have always had a hard time with sexual rejection but since D-Day it has become worse. This is affecting my W and actually make intimacy that much more difficult. Are other BH in the same situation? How have you “learned” to handle rejection better?

asterix - I actually posted earlier on this thread about 5 posts or so above this.

I am terrible at handling rejection of SF too. That has probably been the biggest problem in my M - the rejection and the way I acted after rejection.

We now have a schedule for SF as mentioned in the above post. Not perfect, but it works to a certain extent - there is basically no rejection anymore. Of course, it ends all spontonaeity etc. and I can't ever ask for anything (she can but rarely does), but in our case I think it was and is necessary.

Part of our problem is my sex drive is about 50 times what hers is - mine is really too much, but I can't do anything about it.

Anyway, that's how we have dealt with that issue. Plenty of other issues left .....

Yes I remember your suggestion. The funny thing is that last weekend my W brought it up as an idea. She basically proposed that we would have sex on average every 3 days. But then she added “…until I get pregnant” (this is a whole other story that I have written about extensively in this thread). So while I would have been open to a scheduled SF, the pregnancy thing was pretty much a deal breaker. She then apologized to have brought up the ‘baby’ topic. Plus to tell you the truth I don’t know how I feel about scheduling SF. First, if behavior predicts, I don’t think that my W would keep her end of the bargain. I think that when SF-day comes up it would still be a question of whether or not she feels like it, then maybe we would do it on SF-day+1, or +2, and then the whole agreement falls apart. So in a way scheduling is a great way to justify not having sex (i.e. today is not SF-day), but it’s still no guarantee that you will have sex on SF-day – at least I suspect that it’s how it would work at my house. I am also afraid that it completely de-romanticizes SF and turns it into a pure duty, a chore, and I don’t see the fun and enjoyment in that – if anything it will turn her off to the idea even more and she will start dreading SF-day. This would completely work against my true goal which is to re-romanticize our relationship and bring the passion back. I may sound overly negative about this idea and maybe I should give it a chance before I kill it but bottom line I don’t think that this suggestion will work for us. This being said, thank you for sharing your experience. In your case, has your W kept her end of the agreement? For how long have you had this agreement? Is your W satisfied with it?

PS: By the way this complete disproportion betwee my W's SF appetite and mine made me think for the longest time that I was the most vulnerable to having an A (not my W). And to this day I still see that as being the biggest risk to me having an A.

We started it the end of July - so about 9 mos. now. I will have to say that W has been very good about keeping her end of it. I try to be understanding if she doesn't feel good or something, but that rarely happens. She has told our MC that it actually makes her want to do it more to a certain extent since it makes her think about it more and since she doesn't really feel as much pressure.

Of course, W wanted to do it so she has a lot of incentive to make it work. If they don't stick to it, I think it's actually the worst case since you expect it and don't get it - .

You are right that it does "de-romanticize" it to a certain extent. There is no real way around that. That is the big disadvantage. There are times when I can tell she is doing it just because it's a schedule night. I have told her I really don't ever want to do it if she doesn't want to ... doesn't solve the problem totally.

For us, we really needed to do something and this was about the only thing we could think of that would work - and it has worked OK for us. Not perfect, but OK. Sex was a huge problem for us and while this is not perfect, it's a vast improvement.

Now that I think about it this approach could actually work for us as well. At this point I would first like to work on better managing my emotions when faced with ‘rejection’. Actually the fact of calling it or perceiving it as ‘rejection’ may already be part of the problem. I would like to learn to handle that better without feeling so much frustration, anger, and resentment – and all the negative consequences that it has on my relationship with my W. In terms of ‘de-romanticizing’ the relationship, this has a terrible impact, it puts so much stress and anxiety around the topic of SF that it becomes a huge “turn-off” for my W, further fueling the vicious circle.

In my view this feeling of rejection is not a direct result of the A (just made worse by the A) and therefore it is a longer term issue that I need to resolve. I hope that my W can support me in this maybe by managing my expectations a little bit better, communicating a bit better, etc – actually I don’t really know what would help from her side. This is something I would really like to discuss with her in depth; we just haven’t really had a chance to do so yet. Scheduling SF may be the solution to our problem.

You might as well try it - doesn't sound like you have much to lose. We didn't have much to lose either.

Very similar to my situation - I did a terrible job with "rejection" - and even like you, I think part of the issue is considering it to be "rejection" - when it's really not.

Anyway, good luck with it.

Thanks.

Wow.
The physiacl symptoms are awful aren't they?
I really, really feel for you.
I had the same experience with my WH, in that, I read the books, I suggested counselling, I arranged dates, I initiated conversations.
I think a lot of this has to do with this "fog" that WS seem to get caught in. That mixed with guilt, shame, missing the OP, frustration, withdrwal, boredom etc etc.
My H thought that it was enough to just be at home.
It is only now a year later when he just wrote to the OW
(they still work together) that he has finally acknowledged he is not "rid of her" or his feelings, and needs to go to counselling and find out some home truths that he has been hiding from.
You mentioned your journal. I found it very cathartic to writye one, and although I can completely understand you wanting your W to know how you feel, do you think that she is really taking it in? Read some of the "fog" stuff on this site. You might be better off keeping it to share with her when she is ready to really read it and understand.
I am getting a kind of twisted pleasure in H emotionally downloading on me at present (endless letters of regret and pledging eternal love) and keeping my journal private. I'm biding my time until he is "ready" and not trapped in hyper emotion, depression and fog.
Keep going, keep smiling for the kids and yourself.
kate

I find the signoff so relevant, especially in desperate times. As I struggle with mental torments & endless questions, I embrace the above for strength to live day by day.

endofworld

Me BS,
Married 16 yrs to WH, together 20 yrs
A 2 yr
EA Jan06,
3 kids , DSS 14, 11, 2

Endofworld – This is indeed a very powerful statement and so incredibly applicable to what we go through as BS. I often repeat it to myself and it has helped.

bay_window_van – In my case I believe that my W has been out of the “fog” for quite some time. First, right after the PA, the OM moved to another state (I didn't have to deal with the 'working together' situation which I think would have made it a lot more difficult). They did maintain phone contacts for a period of time but then established NC almost 4 months before she finally admitted to the A. My W tells me that her “feelings” for the OM faded very quickly after the end of the PA and that she doesn’t miss him at all anymore (she apparently never missed the ‘physical’ aspect of their relationship but missed the ‘friendship and companionship’ after the PA ended). However she indeed came out of this A “damaged”, feeling a lot of shame, guilt, and worthlessness. She is very mad at herself for what happened and is extremely remorseful. We are working diligently towards R, it’s not easy every day, but we have made some progress since D-Day. The MC has helped us tremendously.

These threads are my journal. I also find it very therapeutic to articulate my feelings in the written form, with the added benefit of getting other’s feedback and suggestions. My W knows that I am involved in this discussion group but she hasn’t read any of my posts. With the guidance from MC, I think that I have done a better job at expressing my feelings to my W. She knows that I am hurting and overall I believe that she ‘takes it in’. Actually she has been a great source of support for me since D-Day and as I have said before, given the circumstances, I think that I couldn’t ask for much better.

Hi, hope you don't mind if I jump in with a suggestion. I think I read that you have younger children. Does your wife work ourside the home? I know what worked for me was to have a set amount of time to work on the relationship and connection without sex. One month, no sex even after cuddling, kissing or making out. It might alleviate the pressure she feels to have sex but at the same time allow for some physical bonding.

The key here is not to ever, ever ask for it during the set abstaining time. It would only take once to blow the whole sense of security for her.

Would it be helpful for you to step up the pace with your contribution around the home and with the kids so she could relax a little more? This also would have to come sincerely without the cost of sex. I found it extremely helpful to my overall sense of priority in the relationship.

I'm sorry this is not extactly what you may have been hoping to hear, but as a W in the situation (although I am not a WW) I really think it sounds like she needs this space without pressure.

Good luck

Apl – All suggestions are welcome, thanks for contributing your thoughts. My W does indeed work outside the home; she actually has a very heavy work schedule.

The “abstinence period” is an interesting idea. My first reaction is that it may be a bit drastic in my case and I don’t think that my current situation requires it quite yet. However there is something to be said about “closeness for the sake of closeness” and not necessarily as a prelude to SF. There might indeed be a certain reluctance to cuddle or kiss if she feels that I would automatically assume that we would have SF. Here I hope that we can clarify these expectations through better communications at first rather than by scheduling periods of abstinence. For instance if my W could tell me, “look, I would like to cuddle but I am not interested in SF tonight” – that would work for me, in a way it would manage my expectations.

Well this is actually an area where my W doesn’t have to do much at all: I clean, I cook, I bathe the kids, I play with the kids a lot, I pay the bills, etc – I am a rare breed of H that actually handles the bulk of the housework, despite the fact that I work a full-time job. This is the example that I have always seen growing up and I have always emulated it at home. The only thing she usually handles is the laundry, but even that it’s only on rare occasions since we have someone else do it for most of the year. So this is an area where I really can’t do much more, my W barely has to lift a finger the way it is.

I have so many “doubts” these days:

• Was the OM a better lover than me?
• Will she have another A some time in the future?
• Will she ever be really happy with me?
• Does she think about him when we make love?
• Does she wish that I was more like him (physically)?
• Will I ever be able to live one day without thinking about the A?
• Does she still think about him, does she still miss him?
• Am I too much of a nice guy? Am I letting her get away with murder? Does that make me 'weak'?

The strange part is that I already have answers to most of those questions but I still wonder… So many insecurities.

My 2 cents:

• Was the OM a better lover than me?
Doesn't matter anymore. She chose you. She wants your M to recover and be strong. Make it your goal to be an excellent lover....get some books! ;-)

• Will she have another A some time in the future?
Possible, but unlikely given her remorse. Put your energy and attention and intention on the positive. Affair proof your M by staying aware of and meeting all her needs.

• Will she ever be really happy with me?
Yes!

• Does she think about him when we make love?
Don't even go there. Make sure you are focusing 100% on her when you make love.

• Does she wish that I was more like him (physically)?
Doesn't matter anymore. She chose you. She wants your M to recover and be strong.

• Will I ever be able to live one day without thinking about the A?
Yes! And then one week, one month, one year. Others here tell me this is true, but I have yet to experience it myself.

• Does she still think about him, does she still miss him?
Ask her. I think she'll say "seldom" and "no".

• Am I too much of a nice guy? Am I letting her get away with murder? Does that make me 'weak'?
No. You are not weak. What you have done takes incredible love, commitment and strength. A weaker man would have walked out the door.

Intention – thanks for your “2 cents”. I think that your comments are probably in line with my FWW’s thinking along those lines. But for some reason, she could keep telling me the same things over and over again and it seems that I would always doubt her.

This weekend was average for me. Saturday I think that we did pretty well and we had a good day. Nothing out of the ordinary really but we were pleasant and fairly affectionate with each other. Sunday was a different story. For some reason I starting the day by making some snide remarks (related to the A) that she really didn’t appreciate. In the afternoon we went for a long walk and I started triggering like crazy.

First she received a page on her cell phone from some unknown number. I dialed the number and got a generic voice mail message without a name. I just know that it was another cell phone number. I looked up the area code and it was from somewhere in Oklahoma – we don’t know anyone in that state. I paged the number back and called the number several times but nobody picked up. I asked my W about it and she told me that she didn’t know the number. She also said that she had received a number of wrong number calls over the last few weeks. I started worrying that maybe it was a code between my W and the OM – he sends her a page from some fictitious number and she knows to call him back. My W confirmed that she had been in NC with the OM for several months now and that if he ever tried to contact her again she would let me know immediately – as we have agreed. I believe her but that number still threw me for a spin.

Later during the walk she starts talking about the houses that we see and what she would like our future house to be like. As she speaks those words I start getting sad because I wonder if we will indeed have a future together. I worry that maybe we will move on but some day when I least expect it she will pull the rug from underneath my feet again with another A. I started to share those concerns with her and she started to get upset (“Does that mean that we cannot talk about the future anymore?”, etc.). From that point on the rest of the walk got worse. I asked her if she ever thought about him anymore, if she thought I was ‘weak’ or a ‘lesser man’ for wanting an R, if she thought of me as a ‘door mat’, etc. At one point she just said that she didn’t want to talk to me anymore.

A few weeks ago I spent about 30 minutes in her office at work. I was waiting for her to go to MC and it gave me a chance to check her PC. I immediately found out (through Internet history) that she had looked up the OM’s web site. I confronted her about this and she admitted it. She said that when I sent the NC email to the OM (and copied her on it) she saw that I had used an email address for him that she didn’t know. She was supposedly “curious” and used that domain name to check out where he worked. When I asked her why she did this, she just said that she was “curious”. I was so angry and so jealous that she did that. I asked her if she ever look up the web site of my company and she said no, so I asked her why she was “curious” about him and not curious about me, she couldn’t answer that. She told me that she just didn’t think that looking up his web site was a big deal… That come up again in our discussions yesterday but I didn’t get anything else out of her.

Later on I found her laying down in the bed, obviously upset and drained by our discussions. I tried to hold her hand but she wouldn’t take it. Later in the evening she told me that she wasn’t feeling too well, she looked like a ghost, very sad. I gave her a hug and then we watched a movie with the kids. At night she gave me a kiss and we fell asleep. She told me that she was very disappointed about Sunday because she had really hoped that we could have a good day together. This morning she came next to me in bed and cuddle a little bit before she had to get up for work.

This morning I really don’t know how I feel about all this. Sometimes I feel that we will never be able to wash the “stain” from this A from our lives and that it will always be there reminding us of how “common” our M is. It is so difficult for me to accept that my W would engage in something like this with an OM – what does it say about me? What does it say about how she feels for me, her love for me, her respect for me and for us? I wonder if I will ever be happy with her again.

I feel the same way - I am not sure how anyone ever gets over this - looks like they do, but how? And should we really even want to?

Sometimes I tell myself that my M is bigger than the A, that there is enough left, enough good things to counteract the terrible mistake that she made. Then other times I feel that irreparable damage has been done, the foundation has been shaken, and now it’s just a matter of time before the whole thing comes crumbling down. Maybe time will help, maybe one day this will all just be a bad memory, but today it is still difficult for me to be optimistic.

Through MC and our daily interactions we are trying to fix our ‘marital’ problems, but I also wonder when, if at all, her own ‘personal’ problems (i.e. those who led to her decision to have an A) will be addressed. Can we truly ‘affair-proof’ our M if those are not addressed?

I know exactly where you are coming from. There are basically 2 sides to it, I guess: what WW's did "to" us by having A and what we did "to" WW's that made them vulnerable to it.

It seems to me that to have recovery, both have to be addressed and corrected to the extent possible. I am just not sure either can be corrected enough.

So far (6 sessions) the MC seems to have focused either on “me” or on “us”, but never on “her” (i.e. why did you decide to have an A?). It is almost as if the A was implied by some of the issues that we were having before the A, even though my W actually never blamed it on any of that or on me. I would even go as far as wondering if MC hasn’t given my W an “excuse” for the A – before MC she just couldn’t justify it, she could only tell me that she made a terrible mistake and that she hated herself for it. Now it seems that the MC, by focusing on the problems that we were having before the A, has provided a justification for the A – she is no longer the ‘bad guy’ but maybe just a victim of circumstances – and I am as responsible as she is for what happened. Note that none of this has been said explicitly but it’s becoming my perception of where MC is going. I wonder if we will ever cover what my W has to change not to have another A. I was thinking about bringing up that in MC tomorrow night.

Asterix,

Ask your MC about this. Don't guess. Express your misgivings about this to him/her. You are not many months out Asterix and you will be on the rollercoaster for quite awhile yet. It is normal. This is hard on your W because she is soooo far ahead of you right now. She was done with the A long before you found out. She made her decisions and the main was that she wanted you. This will sound odd, but you need to encourage her to hang in there, that you are trying but you are far behind her in all of this, and you have many doubts about yourself.

Really, if you read your last few posts the main issue, as it usually is, is about YOURSELF and how you can be what she needs. You fear that you were doing all you could and it was not good enough. There are no more dishes to wash, no more household chores to do, your job pays what it pays, you don't know what to give to make the marriage stronger.

You were right to express your feelings to her. I am sure they hurt her, and I hope you don't in the habit of doing this to hurt her. But, your feelings are reality and you are about where you should be.

I would suggest that given where she is that perhaps she may benefit from coming here now.

Hang in the Asterix, and don't forget to encourage your W that you are trying and that your goal is a good marriage with her. Ask her to have patience with you.

God Bless,

JL

I had to decide that my M was bigger than the A. With ten years history and three kids, I basically just decided that life without my FWW was not conceivable for me. Once I made that decision, recovery could really begin.

Yes I have told her many times before that she has a 7 month lead time on me and that it will take some time for me to catch up. I also tell her that we come to this from very different angles. She has made her decision to spend the rest of her life with me and she “knows” that it will never happen again. As for me I doubt all these things, I have doubts about the current state of her feelings for the OM, I have doubts as to what the A meant for her, and I have doubts about her ability to avoid another A in the future. Last but not least I have doubts about myself, my ability to cope, my ability to get over this, my ability to live the rest of my life with a W who cheated. And while I am struggling with my own insecurities, she is struggling with feelings of guilt, shame, and worthlessness.

She will deny it but sometimes I feel that she is getting impatient with me, tired of discussing the topic of the A or anything related to it, and she just wishes that we could focus on the present and future. She tells me that she rarely thinks about the A, she tries not to, and I am the one who makes her think about A when I bring up the topic.


The only additional thing I could do is be affectionate and “nice” to her. My mood swings and my resentment are making those feelings very unstable. It’s creating some distance between us as she never knows how I will react when she gets close.

Last night for instance I wanted to be distant, nice but distant. I was maybe using some reverse psychology, thinking that if I became the ‘distancer’, maybe she would become the ‘pursuer’ and I wouldn’t have to be the one who appears ‘needy’ for affection. I didn't call her during the day, didn't page her, didn't send her any emails. In the evening, when she got home, she felt that distance right away and later on sat down with me and asked me if everything was ok. She was sensing that something was different; she was wondering if something had happened, she was worried. The night before last, and last night, I didn’t initiate any ‘intimacy’ and neither did she. We held hands, cuddled a little bit but that was it. Tonight we have another MC session. We may go to dinner together before hand. I think that I just want to be 'pursued', I want the attention, I want her to chase me, to try to make me fall in love with her again. I wish that she was actively trying to do that, actively trying to seduce me, to show me that she is a great W, that she is ready to do anything to win me back. She is nice and she is affectionate but sometimes I feel that she is not trying hard enough, almost as if she took me for granted already, as if she already knew that I was not going anywhere.


I will suggest it but I don’t know if she will have the opportunity to do so.


Thanks for the encouragement.

I feel the same way. I met my W when I was 18, she was 17. We dated for over 5 years before we got married. A significant portion of this ‘dating’ was long distance (we were living on different continents) but we would get together over holidays, spend the summers together, send each other tons of love letters, and call each other all the time (this was all before the Internet). We also lived together for one year before getting married. These years of dating were intense, passionate, and difficult at times, but by far the best years of my life and an incredible source of wonderful memories. We have been married for almost 13 years now and we have two wonderful children. We have accomplished so much together and won so many battles. In many ways I look at our story as a wonderful love story, challenging and unique, something that I “was” so proud of, a story I loved to tell when someone asked us how we met. Now with the “stain of the A”, I feel that our story has lost a lot of its appeal, the A made it ‘common’, it has spoiled my love story. But still this is my past, I have spent over half of my life with this woman in my life, half of my life in love with her. We have two incredible children, whose happiness is by far my most important priority. We also have a bright and prosperous future ahead of time, a future in which we have both invested heavily. I just don’t know what to do. Should we learn our lessons, and move on? Should I let this A derail my life? Is this A a sign that things are no longer as they were and my only chance at happiness is to find another mate, start another life while I am still young enough to do it? Can I conceive separation and divorce? Can I conceive living without my W and share custody of my children? If I am not able to conceive those things does that mean that there will never be consequences to what she did, that I would let her ‘get away with it’ now, and maybe let her get away with it in the future – all just because I can’t conceive life without her? Does that make me ‘co-dependent’, a doormat? I just don’t know what to do.

Maybe your image of a "perfect marriage" was false. Instead of thinking that the A has made it "common", perhaps you could see it as having been the catalyst that shattered the false image of a perfect marriage. What you have now is real - painful, hurtful, wonderful, inspiring, difficult - but real. Nobody can learn from a perfect situation. It is from the hardships that we build character and learn from each other. So many people here have learned from you and have been encouraged by your openness. I know I have.

Intention – thanks for your kind words, I am glad to read that my story has been of benefit to you and possibly others.

After I wrote my last post I did think that the A was indeed a test, a test that my M and my W have passed so far: we are still together, working on R, and my W chose me. Obviously the test results are not all in yet (ask me in 20 years) but at least it shows that the M has been strong enough to survive the initial blow. Of course I wish that my W would have passed the test of ‘temptation’ but she didn’t. “Errare humanum est” …and she is no exception. That reality check is a tough one. Not that I thought that she was perfect but I just didn’t think that she was capable of adultery (sorry if you think that this term is too ‘religiously’ loaded). As you can see, there are still some elements of ‘shock’ even two months post D-Day.

I do feel that I am indeed still facing a decision point: 1) learn our lessons, count my blessings, hope for the best, and continue investing in the M or 2) give up on this M because it’s no longer picture-perfect and seek D. Although it is still virtually impossible for me to conceive (2) and its consequences on my family, I am still hesitant to fully engage on (1). I am somewhere in between, in limbo, keeping my guard up, hesitating, testing the waters, checking the facts… While this “middle ground” is probably a normal place to be at this time, I also know that it’s not a comfortable place, nor a viable long-term place to be. Time for another quote (not in Latin this time): I will have to “****** or get off the pot” sooner or later!

Asterix - I think that is a decision that all of us have to make - that is all BS's (and maybe even WS's to a certain, but very different extent).

Like you, I can't imagine or conceive D either. Also like you, however, I am not totally engaged in your "option 1".

I think you correctly point out that you can't go on like this forever. So I guess the question is at what point do you have to "****** or get off the pot".

It does seem to me that neither you nor I are far enough into this to make the decision yet. But I don't know. You could also maybe take the approach that it's one of those things that "when you know, you know".

Surely that happens at some point, because living like this sure sucks.

Asterix,

Don't play the pursuer/pursued game. It will hurt you and her. You are leveling unspoken expectations on her, and since she is NOT a mind reader, she will fail. That will lead to resentment and that will lead to more pain for both of you.

I know it would feel good if she pursued you right now. But, what you really want is that woman to come to you with a smile on her face, KNOWING you want her and need her. What you are doing will never have that happen. You did a poor job of reading her mind, hence she had the affair. She will do a poor job of reading your mind, hence you both will fail.

Message, YOU ARE BOTH LOUSY MINDREADERS! Talk communicate. I am sure she fears your mood swings. I am sure as they settle down and she is more confident that her efforts will be well received, she will increase her efforts. It is very hard for both of you right now, so don't bring in a "mission impossible" type task for her.

Be open, be honest with her and yourself, and let her help you. You may feel you are needy (and you are to an extent), but she is needy as well. She needs to see a way to help you, she needs to be able to help you, and you need to help her. If you don't do these things NEITHER of you will feel needed nor useful. THAT, is not the way a marriage should be.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Asterix,

You said
Yeah there is that pot thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> but, you are right it takes time for these things. I just posted to you about not doing the pursurer/pursued thing. But, let's look at your marriage for a second. Let's look at it through MY eyes.

Frankly, if I had children in my early to mid 20's you and your W could be my children. I have seen a bit in my time. And I have learned a few things. Let me tell you something about my father, who passed decades ago now.

He was my hero when I was a kid. He was a war hero, very highly decorated, and very successful. He was my father after all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, I as I grew older I learned he was a man, and yes he had flaws. The older I got the closer friends we became and I learned even more about him. Given that he was my hero and in my eyes perfect, it was clear that learning anything about him would NOT meet those standards, and yes he had flaws. He was not a perfect student, nor did he sing in the choir at church. He was not a boy scout. He was tough, and he was NOT nearly as successful as he thought he should have been, thus he felt he failed. Later in life he had health issues and we had long and deep conversations about life, successes, failures, what coulda, woulda, shoulda beens.

Oddly he felt he failed at more things than he succeeded at and he feared we kids were not and should not be very proud of him although he was a great Dad. What he did not see or realize, that the more I found out about his flaws, the more amazed I was at his successes and how far he came in life.

If he had been perfect, been raised in a great environment, had all of the breaks, his accomplishments would not have been so impressive. The fact that he was human, and had to overcome sooo much was what made him so special.

Asterix, your marriage is not perfect. You are not perfect. Your W is not perfect. But, she is willing to work to overcome her failings and shortcomings. She is willing to face her failures and try to make your marriage a good one. If you decide to do the same, your marriage will NOT be perfect, it will be something YOU BOTH will be proud of. It's flaws, it's strengths, the love within, the children you rear in it and bring forth to society those are the things you will be sooo proud of.

People have flaws, they make mistakes, they learn, they grow, and they are lovable even when flawed. Asterix, you have a real live human being on your hands and she wants to be your W. Think about that. You will always regret if you don't choose door #1 and decide to give her the love she deserves from you. I know it is hard. I know you are only two months out, but you are being given a unique OPPORTUNITY here, seize it.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, you make a good point, and I agree. It is just that sometimes I feel tired to “try to be good”, I feel tired to be the one who initiates the hugs, the kisses, the SF. I feel tired to be the one who asks and is told “no”. Sometimes I just want to lay back and let things happen to me for a change…Resentment is indeed a risk since she will usually fall short of my expectations and will end up disappointing me. Actually if behavior predicts, it’s more than a risk, it’s a certainty. That may indeed very well be a setup for failure. Point well taken.

Still I need to find a balance there. If I am too pushy she will feel overwhelmed and she will push back or retreat. If I am too distant she will worry, wonder if I am angry, and she will hesitate to get closer. So finding the right approach is not easy and I am not sure that I always have the patience to experiment, at least not these days.


I don’t know how I feel about that statement. It has a taste of cause and effect that I don’t agree with. It implies “if I had done a good job reading her mind then she wouldn’t have had an A”. Should the ability to read minds be expected from a spouse? What about her own responsibility in this?


I still think that her admission of the A was a very courageous thing to do. I don’t know if I would have been capable of doing the same thing.


Very powerful statement, JL. I know that I don’t want “door #2” – I find this option so wasteful, so hurtful, so overwhelming, and so irreversible. But then why is it that I hesitate about “door #1”, what is it about this middle ground that makes it feel comfortable right now? My MC suggested that it is a place where I don’t have to “trust”, a place where I can keep vilifying my W, a place where I can keep my guard up so that I can’t be hurt again, and probably also a place where I can keep punishing her until I feel that she has suffered enough for what she did to me. Maybe it’s her purgatory. Right now the middle ground is my home base. Sometimes I peek behind door #1, and sometimes I peek behind door #2 (maybe just for ‘due diligence’). Either time or a leap of faith, or both, will make be go through door #1 and lock the door behind me (I say "lock" because the back and forth is not viable). I see my W behind door #1 and she is begging me to come in. I feel that she is ready and she is just waiting for me. Is there anything I can do to help me make that decision? Is there anything she can do? Am I still too fresh post D-Day to make such a decision now (am I burning the stages)?

Asterix,

You stated
I could have that taste, but it was meant that if you knew what she was thinking, and you knew of her unhappiness, then you would have had a chance to short circuit her decision making. But, since you cannot read her mind, you must rely on her actions and her words and both can deceive you if you two don't communicate fully. Reading minds would really help most marriages Asterix, or perhaps we would never marry. I am not sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You also said
Ah balance, you are exactly right. Here is the dynamic I sense. It is up to you to see if this is correct. She fears your mood swings as do you. She is not sure when to step up or step back. She may well feel like initiating things, but fears it is the wrong time. She will need to feel safe Asterix, and that requires you talk to her about your feelings, your fears, your need for her to initiate, and listen to her fears if she does not.

Ask her what she thinks would be a good marriage, a good sex life, a happy home. Have your ideas ready and discuss them, don't debate them. There are no "right" answers, but there is the potential that if you talk you both may find that both of you have undersold yourselves with regard to this marriage, and that things could be much better than either of you thought. It is a matter of perspective, agreement, and sensitivity. AND it takes work and months of discussion.

You also said
Express this to her, but not in the "you" do or don't do this. Express that "I" feel so tired sometimes. "I" need your help, yes even with sexual things sometimes. "I" don't mind hearing "no" from you, but it would help if you suggested a time when you would be willing to be together. Then the "no" is not a rejection, it is a postponement.

Ask HER for help Asterix, but in things that she can "do". Things that you make sure she is happy she did for you. She will need help and encouragement as well. She will and probably feels very tired as well. Talk to her about it.

Ask her "Dear, are you tired of...? I sure am. Let's talk about it and see if we can figure out something that will help us." Do you see?

Asterix, you must lead your own recovery. She cannot heal you. That is the burden the WS bears. They can cause soo much pain, but they cannot really heal it. That you must do. They can keep the wound clean, they can change the dressing and put anticeptic on it, but the healing is all yours. They learn that, and it hurts them...deeply.

I think you have had and do have a very good attitude, and I think as you gain strength and can really reach out to your wife, your marriage will become something much better than it ever was, yes with some scars, but more open, stronger, and yes even more loving.

There is a lot of hope here Asterix. If I could speed your healing I would. If your W could she would, but you have to do most of the heavy lifting yourself. It is the way of things you know.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I always looked at things as "you can drive the bus or ride in the bus. But in either case if the bus is in a wreck you get hurt." I prefer to drive the bus myself. I think you will find that as you drive the bus, set the tone, show love and forgiveness you will arrive at where you want: loved, respected, and cared for. Odd how that happens. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JL - you have shared so much wisdom here that my head is spinning. In a good way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Asterix - do you realize that I would not be enjoying this wisdom if you had not chosen to be so open about your situation? The pain you have suffered has led to the condition that has helped me with my own suffering. Thank you.

I love your analogy of the door. Go through number 1 and lock the door!

Thanks again for your continued support and insights. Last night we had a tough MC session. It was the second session in a row where the MC is trying to focus on my W. I guess that I have been monopolizing the sessions so far (The MC observed that I was probably the ‘pursuer’). As usual my W wasn’t very talkative. So I brought up the whole question of ‘marital issues’ vs. ‘personal issues’ (see post #2997049 above). As I was trying to explain my rationale for this question I could feel my emotions flaring up (anger, frustration, etc.) and it was obviously very noticeable also for the MC and my W – I think that they were getting a bit uncomfortable. I think that my W took it to mean that I needed guarantees, that I wanted the MC to find out what was wrong with her so that we could fix her and it would never happen again. I also expressed that I wanted to know what the A was like for her, how she felt during the A, and after the A. First she didn’t seem to believe that I was genuinely interested in knowing her feelings, she also said that she didn’t feel comfortable talking to me about those things because something she said could always be held against her and ‘thrown in her face’ later. She kept saying that she felt that I was looking for ‘something’, and she didn’t know what that was. The MC said that I was obviously not being very effective in finding out about her feelings, that the best way to achieve that was to talk about my own feelings, how I felt at the time, and how I feel now, and create a comfortable and safe environment where she can start expressing her feelings. Just asking her how she felt at the time, with anger & frustration in my voice, would not get me to know her feelings. He proposed that maybe that was something he could talk about with my W one on one (I took it to mean some IC), but he wasn’t sure he could get her to share her feelings either.

Note that I also shared my analogy about the two doors (see post #2997888 above). I think that the MC took it to mean that I was not ready to truly start R and working on the M, that I was still waiting, that it was a comfortable place for me. I told him that I desperately wanted to go through door #1, that I needed help to do that.

At the end he concluded by asking my W if she felt that things could be worked out between us, she answered “Yes I have faith”, the MC responded “We will see”. I don’t know that his last statement meant, and maybe I am just over-sensitive right now, but I felt so incredibly depressed and hopeless coming out of the session.

When we got home I gave her a hug and spoke with my W a little while longer. I told her that I was committed to our R and that I knew that we would succeed. She thanked me for saying that. Later on we watched some TV together, played with the kids, and put them to bed. Soon thereafter we were laying in bed. She was relaxing and I was holding her hand. I came close to her and told her that I wanted to make love to her. She just said ‘thanks’, and then she said that she didn’t feel like doing that tonight. That exchange of words was so cold and so detached. My W commented that the way I asked to make love was so ‘stressed’ and ‘nervous’. As for me it feels that every time I bring it up she looks bothered. Then the vicious circle stared once again…as if I was suddenly becoming another person, my emotions just take over, I was triggering like crazy (thinking about her PA with the OM, how she didn’t reject him, how she did it with him 3 days in a row, etc). I was obviously all stressed out, angry, frustrated, and I made a couple of snide remarks. I was thinking once again that I should just give up on the whole idea of having SF with my W, that anyway she wasn’t that great a lover, that I was rejected in most cases anyway, and that it just wasn’t worth all the aggravation and frustrations. I was thinking that maybe I would only find the passion that I need with another woman, one that would be sexually interested in me, and one that would initiate, and make me feel wanted – one that would be interested in me as a ‘lover’! I event told her that I would probably go sleep in the guest room. In my mind at the time I was literally giving up on my W, peeking behind door #2 again, all this because she had said ‘no’ again. She just kept telling me that she didn’t want to start an argument, that she didn’t want to find, that she just didn’t feel like having SF that night. She was basically refusing to engage with me, it was late, she was tired, she had a tough day and a heavy schedule the following day. We each rolled to our side of the bed, and eventually fell asleep.

This morning we cuddled for a few minutes when we woke up. I told her that I was sorry for last night. She said that she is stressed about SF because if she doesn’t feel like doing it, she will have to face all the negative consequences (see above). She is also convinced that if we had SF, or if she had ‘serviced me’, none of this would have happened last night. I apologized again, told her that I wasn’t proud of my behavior, that I was embarrassed. Then time ran out and she had to get up for work.

I am now at work and I have been thinking about this all morning. Sexual rejection is such a powerful trigger for me, it scares me. I really feel those emotions taking me over and it feels like I am becoming someone else, someone who is so angry and so frustrated. I think that it’s fair to say that this is a very big issue right now, and one that preceded the A – the A just made it worth, gave it more weight, more pain. That it maybe why I keep trying to convince myself that I should just give up on SF with my W. Giving up means not trying anymore, and not trying would mean no rejection. But what kind of life would that be? Is it possible to go through door #1 without a satisfactory SF? I just don’t know how to handle this situation. Sorry for the long post but I have a lot on my mind right now.

asterix,
I don't think your wife really understands how the male sexuality works. I've been told by my co-worker once that if I could try to leave only one day with all the testosterone I would be shocked. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I also was lectured by my WH on this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And I hear what men around are talking about and I see how men are looking at the women. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
For woman, mother of D and BS it is kind of disgusting. But if I want my M to work I have to accept it. Why don't you buy something on the subject of male sexuality and ask your W to read it?
Before my H A I was not interested at all but even then I realized that I have to try harder and it is not my H fault that I am paranoid about world's troubles, etc. After all she may like it too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, also it is good for her health. I don't know if you drink - but having a glass of wine helps me to relax.
Does she know how important S is for men? I can't say that I am happy with this fact but there is nothing I can do.

Now she is risking your M. You would get more progress in your R. Is your MC male or female? Can he(she) talk to her about that? To me it is the same on the emotional level. If my H did not kiss me in the morning - I am depressed and thinking about door#2 (I love your expression). If he is smiling I am optimistic and happy all day.

By the way we are almost 6 month after DDay and it is nothing like 4 or 3 month ago. I almost never feel angry, just sad and bitter sometimes. But most of the time I feel normal and surprisingly happier then I was before the DDay. I guess because my H is totally different person now. Be patient. I really believe in statistics. If people say it is possible then I want it to work for me too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maril – thanks for your input. I really don’t know how to handle this SF (or lack thereof) situation. Clearly my W will only want to have SF is she feels like it and that includes all sexual acts, even those that are just for my benefit (no need to be too graphic here I assume – that’s what she has called ‘servicing me’, an expression that I absolutely hate). She has told me that she sometimes ‘forced’ herself but it didn’t make her feel good so now she doesn’t do that anymore. In a way I think that this is perfectly normal and acceptable. I don’t want my W to have SF with me if she doesn’t want to, that wouldn’t make me feel good either, and it wouldn’t feel right. What I desperately want is for my W to desire me, to want me, to chase me, to be into me. I feel that the short period of ‘hysterical bounding’ is now over and we will soon be back to infrequent SF – from my point of view, not good for R!

This comes up from time to time with the MC (a guy). Once he said “making love starts in the morning when you say hello”, basically saying that you have to establish an ongoing feeling of love, care, attention, comfort (i.e. mental intimacy) before you can get to ‘physical’ intimacy. My W has also made the comment that the way I want to reconnect is via SF, as if better SF would eventually lead us to be emotionally closer. In her mind, it works the other way around – emotional connection first, SF later. Bottom line I sometimes feel like a pervert, like I am the only one thinking about and needing SF. To tell you the truth sometimes I play with the idea that I should have an A to take care of the SF so that I am more “relaxed” to work on R with my W. No need to tell you how messed up this line of thinking is. This being said I am wondering if this is not a common issue for men. I have two good male friends (same age as me) and they seem to be going through exactly the same thing. They are both very unsatisfied with the SF with their W’s (both in terms of frequency and variety), and keep joking around about having an A.

I really need to find a solution to this problem. I either have to help my W be more interested in SF so that there is less of gap between my needs and hers. Or I have to be able to handle the ‘rejection’ better. Or maybe I just need to concentrate on SF less, more on affection (etc.), and SF may then come naturally. I just don’t know what to do.

Asterix - I feel exactly the same way you do about SF - maybe even worse because my drive is very high - ridiculously high - I would truly like it everyday - and being honest, several times a day -

I have acted and felt like you for a long time about being rejected.

While it didn't solve the problem completely, the "schedule" helps tremendously - again, I suggest you try it - you have nothing to lose.

On 2/16 (see post #2993468), I indicated that my W had actually brought up the idea herself during one of our conversations. Last night, in the middle of our ‘argument’ I reminded her of what she had suggested (at the time she had proposed ‘every 3 nights’). She answered “I don’t remember saying that, I don’t remember that conversation”. So incredibly frustrating, sometimes I wonder if my W doesn’t have amnesia…Soon I will have to record our conversations so that I can play them back to her if her memory fails.

Try again, see if she'll try it. It's better than nothing.

I will bring it up again and maybe this time she will remember her own suggestion. I guess that in your case, your W wanted to do it so she had an incentive to make it work. If I am the one who suggests the schedule now, what incentive will my W have to make it work? I don’t know this all sounds so artificial.

I think she has the same incentive you have to a certain extent - try to solve at least one problem in your M.

It is artificial to a certain extent. You sort of get used to it, but that aspect of it does suck.

?!?!? Wow! That's what I start to understand lately. I really feel sorry for all of you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Let me tell you how women feel. I have several girlfriends with kids between 3 - 7. And we used to joke about this issue - we are not interested in S in general. But we wish to be. Now - you don't want to have a wife who thinks about SF every day. This is sick. Also, if my H said this - I would feel that he is using me. I am not saying this is right but that's the fact. I wish we could find the balance - may be you can exercise instead? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And there is nothing wrong about 'servicing' but not so often. Why don't you call 'scheduling' 'dating'?

Your MC is right - you have to start expressing your love in the morning. And make sure that you stress it out for your W that it is not just SF you want but you want it with her because she looks good, she is sexy, etc. Not only because you love her.

Another thing - from what I've read she did it because she felt lost and lonely. So you should not worry if this guy was better then you. Make her feel special and I am sure she will start to feel special.

PS: I just read my reply and I can see that I sound like I am lecturing. This is not my intention. It's just my limited English. So don't take it personally.

Maril - Thanks. I think I am probably abnormal in this regard. I do exercise and it doesn't help with that at all. It may even make it worse.

W does do some "servicing" too. That helps.

The only thing that has ever reduced my desire is W's EA. Right now, it's not what it used to be.....

On the other hand, the "schedule" has helped in that I know what to expect and when - so I don't get mad when I don't get SF.

Unfortunately I don't think you are abnormal. The longer I live the more I realize that it is what it is. Most of the guys will not say it loud. It just scares me. I guess men are from Mars. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I really don't think we are that bad - and I also really don't think all guys want it as much as me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

asterix and 193296,
I just got this joke from my gf. Cheer up. We will make it. Have to go to long boring meeting. I will try to think about SF while I am there to understand better what are you guys going through every day. (just kidding)

Subject: 7 KINDS OF SEX

The 1st kind of sex is called: Smurf Sex. This kind of sex happens when you first meet someone and you both have sex until you are blue in the face.

The 2nd kind of sex is called: Kitchen Sex. This is when you have been with your partner for a short time and you are so horny you will have sex anywhere, even in the kitchen.

The 3rd kind of sex is called: Bedroom Sex. This is when you have been with your partner for a long time. Your sex has gotten routine and you usually have sex only in your bedroom.

The 4th kind of sex is called: Hallway Sex. This is when you have been with your partner for too long. When you pass each other in the hallway you both say "screw you."

The 5th kind of sex is called: Religious Sex, which means you get Nun in the morning, Nun in the afternoon and Nun at night.

The 6th kind is called Courtroom Sex. This is when you cannot stand your wife any more. She takes you to court and screws you in front of everyone.

And last, but not least:
7th kind of sex is called: Social Security Sex. You get a little each month. But not enough to live on.

Good one Maril - thanks for turning this into a joke, it does help to laugh about it sometimes! I guess that for me I am mostly experiencing 3 (best case), 4 (sometimes since D-Day), 5 (worst case), and pretty much always feel like 7. I have not experienced 1 or 2 in many years, I wish I could at least go back to 2 (wishful thinking?)... As for 6 I hope that I will never get there.

asterix,
instead of waiting for your W to start chasing you why don't you try to melt her heart first? Little things but something very personal and unexpected. Like buying one of this stupid women magazines tonight for her like 'InTouch' or similar. Or buying a book of her favorite author. Or order something on the internet and have it delivered in her name - CD or DVD for example. Couple of weeks ago I got a parcel from the Neiman Marcus in my name and my heart sunk - I thought my H ordered something for me. Well, it was that my niece order was put in my name at some reason (we share the last name). I actually told my H about this, not complaining, just making fun of myself. Today I got the package and it was a very cute case for my new IPod. He may get lucky tonight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When you do something for her don't feel like a looser. I am sure that will only make her regret her A more. Last month I was in the book store and bought a book for my husband and I could see he was so touched and felt guilty and stupid about his A.

Maril - yes I want to do that more - I haven't had a great track records along those lines. Mother's day is coming up, that will be an opportunity to shine! She is also coming with me to Europe in a couple of weeks (business for me, pleasure for her) - maybe I could get her something for the trip. Any suggestions?

Quote:

This comes up from time to time with the MC (a guy). Once he said “making love starts in the morning when you say hello”, basically saying that you have to establish an ongoing feeling of love, care, attention, comfort (i.e. mental intimacy) before you can get to ‘physical’ intimacy. My W has also made the comment that the way I want to reconnect is via SF, as if better SF would eventually lead us to be emotionally closer. In her mind, it works the other way around – emotional connection first, SF later. Bottom line I sometimes feel like a pervert, like I am the only one thinking about and needing SF.

-----------------------------------

And what do you think about it?

I totally agree with the MC. That's the main difference between man and woman.

We, women, are emotional.

Little gifts, little messages... help with the kids, help in the house, so we are not so tired and most of all, no pressure or this becomes an issue.

My H has a very hight S drive, he's also for the everyday, 3 times a day if possible <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I also have a very high S drive. But not that high.

He relaxes with SF, I need to be relaxed to enjoy SF.
I am much more in the mood in the morning (I am a morning person) he's much more in the mood in the evening.

But once we both realized this, we developed a very "Hot-intimacy-wild S" relationship. (This before the his Affairs, my desire for him and S is pretty low now)

My very woman advise is: (besides the mentioned above)

When you go to bed at night as you hold her, state clearly, that you don't want SF, you just want to cuddle, feel her, be next to her.

Whenever you feel her tired or stressed, ask her to lay down in bed, and massage her till she feels totally relaxed. (get a massage oil preferably) Again, make clear you just and her to relax, not doing it to get SF.

How is it with the kids? 3 and 6 is pretty energy taking. Whenever possible, offer your self to take care of them, as in, fill the bath tub and propose her a long bath while you bath the kids or give them dinner or just play with them.

Make sure you take any chance to compliment her.

She will probably be the one to push you into SF. BUT DONT EXPECT IT AND IT WILL COME. And don't forget, all this takes time.

Don't feel like your forcing anything, just face it has creating a "needed" environment where she feel confortable and really wishing SF.
Woman are just like this.

Be nice and show her you're really working on her well being.

And last, I have to ask, how much foreplay there is?

We had a GREAT sexual life because our main goal was just to please the other. My H is indeed a great lover puts my satisfaction in first place.

About the trip to Europe. What kind of Hotel are you going to stay? Any 5 star should offer this I believe.

Do you think she would enjoy a SPA package for a full day?

And I am sorry for my english as I am not an native english .

Men are emotional too but it’s true that when it comes to SF, we are less “complicated”.

That’s a tough one and quite a vicious circle. With my W it happens with ‘kissing’ and with SF. She will tell me “now that you have made a big deal out of it, I feel pressured, and it makes it ever more difficult for me to do these things”. I feel trapped – I bring up those issues because I am not happy with the way things are and the next thing I know she feels pressured and she wants to do them even less. I feel punished for raising the issues.

The ‘kissing’ is an issue that I raised a number of times as she was just not kissing me anymore. We could make love (rarely), do a number of things to each other, but if I tried to kiss her on her lips she would turn her head. Lately it has gotten a little bit better but I still lack the warmth and intimacy of kissing. After D-Day, I found out that there was apparently a fair amount of kissing going on with the OM. For a period of a few weeks that’s all that they would do (before it led to a full PA for 3 days) – kissing and making out. Knowing that she would willingly do that with him (even though she said that he was a lot more interested in kissing than she was), it made me so incredibly jealous and insecure, reinforcing the question “why would she kiss him and not me?”. Today ‘kissing’ is still one of those ‘pressure’ points.

I feel that this is very similar to our situation. SF indeed relaxes me, makes me feel emotionally closer to her, and makes me feel more ‘secure’. This comfort helps me be more affectionate, more patient, more attentive. On the other hand my W needs to feel the comfort via companionship, friendship, ‘togetherness’, before she will feel ready to have SF. In my view this often results in a deadlock, each of us being unable to focus on simply meeting the other’s ENs (selfish?).

My W definitely isn’t an evening person – by the time she gets to bed she is exhausted and sleep is her priority. As for me, I am much more of a night owl and I get my second wind in the evening, I will want to talk, chat, and obviously have SF. She will want to talk a little sometimes too, cuddle, and fall asleep. The problem is that the evening, when we are in the bedroom, is usually the only time we are together without kids around. This is really the only time to be intimate. Mornings are difficult because my W wants to sleep until that last possible minute before she has to get up (she needs a lot of sleep…) – SF sometimes happens in the morning but it’s rare.

I don’t understand this statement. What did you realize? And how did that help you develop a “hot intimacy – wild S”?

I understand your point. I guess that it feels a bit funny to say that I don’t want SF when in reality I want it. But I see the point in telling her that I am doing those things for her, not “expecting” SF in return. This is a very generous thing to do – I will try but I have to admit that these days it is difficult for me to be generous with her. I still have so much anger and frustration in me at times…

Not much at all, and I miss that. The problem is that in the evening she is pretty tired so even if she is open to SF she doesn’t want it to go on for a long time, and foreplay is where she decides to squeeze time out. If it was up to me, there would be a lot more foreplay.

I love to make love to my W as well and please her. It frustrates me that I only rarely get an opportunity to do so. Even when we make love I feel that my hands are tied, I would love to kiss her, caress her, touch her in so many different ways but she only rarely respond positively to these things. Often she won’t let me kiss her because she says her skin is too sensitive at night or she is too ticklish. She won’t let me kiss her on the lips. She won’t let me touch her in certain places. And SF then usually boils down to basic intercourse. For me, while the ‘physical’ need may still be satisfied like that, I feel that there is an emotional or erotic need that is not satisfied and leaves me hungry for more.

No need to apologize. I am not an native English speaker either…

Asterix,

Reading your latest post reminds me why men don't find "talking" with women all that rewarding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It sure is confusing. You don't talk to me. If you talk to me about meaningful issues I feel pressured. I won't do things if I feel pressured. I won't do things unless we have an emotional connection. ETC. Ah women! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Just an informational piece of information for a few of the posters. It was stated
Men relax with sex because following climax a hormone is secreted that drops the heart rate. It is one of the reasons men rarely have heart attacks during sex, although the heart rate can be very very high. Anyway this hormone is basically a sedative. That is why men will often go to sleep after sex, and it is why sex relaxes men.

Just a bit of information for the files, perhaps circular files, but files nevertheless.

God Bless,

JL

This is indeed quite frustrating. That’s probably where the expression “damn if you do, damn if you don’t” comes from!

As for the “medical” note, I didn’t know about this hormone but I can confirm that some chemical reaction happens in the body after SF – it is amazing the effect that it can have on the body and on the mind. I have never taken drugs but I assume that the effect could be comparable. Isn’t it the same for women?

I dunno, but it certainly helps relieve stress. Maybe thats why I feel wound like a Titleist?

The hormone is called oxytocin. (Not to be confused with oxycontin!). Oxytocin is basically an emotional bonding hormone that makes you feel closer to your wife.

Interestingly, women in committed relationships have this hormone at about 10 times the level that men do. It's only after sex that the male oxytocin level approximates that of the woman.

I'm in the process of reading 'Eight Secrets of Happily Married Men'. The core of the book is that men and women think, act, and communicate differently - because that's how we're made - and that it's okay. Interestingly, the author is down on most MC because it forces the man onto unfamiliar ground - thinking and talking about his feelings - whereas that's home territory for most women. Still reading.

Have they been able to synthecize this hormone? I would like to get it in the form of pills! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Wikipedia has a good entry on oxytocin.

Interestingly, they have synthesized it under the trade name pitocin...which is one of the things they give pregnant women to induce labor. And IIRC, your FWW is an OBGYN. Odd coincidence.

So here is the question: has anyone every used oxytocin to help with their marital problems?

Quote:

""But once we both realized this, we developed a very "Hot-intimacy-wild S" relationship."
------------
""I don’t understand this statement. What did you realize? And how did that help you develop a “hot intimacy – wild S”?""
---------

Sorry I didn't make myself clear.

Well we realized we were not having SF on a regular basis because of this differences.

before we discuss it my H though I was not much into S, and maybe I wasn't... at least not in the evening.

So we both had to give some... we go to the bed room earlier instead of wacthing TV, even if after I fell a sleep my H returns to living room.

We would eventually wake up earlier then the kids... harder to do for him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
he would help me more with the kids. Instead of both of us read the story he would be the one so I could relax a bit before he returns.

Since we were discussing to understand why and till we found the main reasons, we finally started to openly discussing "S", then fantasies and.... since my H is such a great lover, and he can get so much satisfaction just by pleasuring me, I decided to look on the internet for ways to improve and diverse and surprise him. So we finally found out what a "Hot-intimacy-wild S" relationship is, and how rewarding it can be.

From what you say, your wife might not really know what SF is... Maybe she has "taboos"about it?

I imagine how frustrating this is for you, but please be patient.

I would advice you to take it very slowly but you have to "open" her mind about S.


At the time I found the site www.women.com, VERY useful, they have boards about many, many subjects, familly, kids, health... the section "Sex and romance" is one of them. Now the site belongs to i-village group, not so good, but still MANY articles and very reliable and serious, just type www.women.com.

Or try to get a book to help her understand what she's is missing, and what how is she putting your marriage and happiness at risk.

Also check for her health. Might be a physical problem.

She is not into kissing because for her that means SF, she does not want it and does not want to cause you the frustrations by denying it.
So please, for now, invest, in caring for her clearly stating, and not really expecting SF right now in return.

You have no idea how much a women appreciates a man who can do this. (As a woman I can only imagine how hard it is)
I am sure with time she will be very willing to give you what she knows you want and need. Not only willing but desiring it.

This is you showing her how much you appreciate her and you will arouse her just by doing that.

What about the massages? Just for her to relax... don't you think she would like that?

Just never mention S, just tell her you feel her tired and want her to relax.

It can be the begining for her to feel more confortable with her body and you touching her.


I read a few posts back where a schedule day for SF was considered.

Maybe you can eliminate the "not natural"or not "romantic" factor by making it a very speciall evening each week?

Make it your special night together?
The candles all over, new lights in the room, burning some "Indian" incense, fill the room with flowers, special music, new set of bed sheets, set up an igloo tend over the bed with a small lantern? All that your imagination will lead you.

After same time you'll be both involved and spend the week thinking about what to do for next SF night.
Maybe she will feel the antecipation, almost like getting ready for a date when you were young?

My H complains a lot that where we are living now we seldom have clear sky, we seldom see the starts, so I bough a toy that projects the starts. Set it up and wen he entered the room I was waiting for him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He loved it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Small things that make the difference

Well we “once had” a great sex life. It’s only over the last few years that things have really slowed down, became more ‘boring’, more routine – with decreases in both frequency and overall intensity in SF. “taboos?” maybe – I think that it’s fair to say that I am more adventurous and open minded when it comes to SF (must be my European upbringing). I wish that I could do a better job opening up her mind and trying different things but she seems very reluctant (or plain uninterested) and I haven’t been very successful in convincing her.

Yes I do feel that there is a risk as there is an unmet EN that is very important for me. And now that I see this unmet EN in the context of her A, it makes it even more difficult to accept. She knows that this is a problem for me; she knows that I am not satisfied with our sex life, and once she also recognized that “it wasn’t ideal”. I haven’t told her this yet but I feel that this unmet EN makes me vulnerable to have an A myself. I find myself looking at other women differently, fantasizing about what it would be help to be with a woman who would desire me and be passionate with me, I am jealous of others who seem to have fulfilling SF with their spouse, etc.

That’s pretty much all I can do anyway.

The ideas that you suggest regarding the ‘dates’ or how to make even ‘scheduled SF’ more romantic are great. Those ideas really give another dimension to something that could sound very artificial and forced. Thank you. I guess that this is another area where I will have to lead by example because I have little or no expectation that my W would ever come up with any of the things you suggest.

Interesting developments yesterday. My W gets home in the early evening. A couple of hours later as the kids are watching a DVD in the living room, she takes me upstairs and we have SF. Wonderful surprise for me, it was great! We then come back downstairs, we have a great evening, playing board games, interacting, joking around – basically having a nice time as a family. This morning, right before she leaves for work, she seems a bit 'down'. I ask her what's going on she tells me that it concerns her to see how depressed, frustrated, angry, and sad I am when we don't have SF – which is accompanied with some negativity about our chances of successful R. Then we have SF and I am a happy man, with a completely different personality and outlook on our relationship and R (at least for a period of time). Because of these reactions she tells me that she now feels 'pressured to perform SF' as she worries about the consequences of not having SF. And obviously she doesn't like that pressure...

I guess that it's perfectly normal to feel happy when you have SF with the woman that you love. So I am not worried about the positive effects of SF. But I do share her concerns about the negative effects of not having SF. I think that I give it too much meaning, too much weight. Part of it is of course sexual frustration but I also take it as a personal rejection and I think that this 'emotional' hit is a lot more powerful than the 'physical' aspect. I also now always see that rejection in the context of the A, of the SF she had with the OM: “did she ever tell him 'no'?”, “didn't she feel 'pressured' with him?”, “was it more 'spontaneous' with him and more 'forced' with me?”. I feel jealous and incredibly insecure. Those emotions overwhelm me, I am rarely able to manage them, and they significantly affect my behavior and personality until SF happens again. I am really at a loss here, I just don't know how to manage those emotions. I wish that I could just take her 'no' and still remains affectionate, nice, supportive, and positive – which would probably make SF a lot more likely. But instead the 'no' generates so many negative emotions in me that it makes it difficult for her to be around me – and obviously it affects my chances of having SF. Should I get a woman's perspective on this? How do I become better at handling the 'no'? [Hopefully this whole post makes sense]

It makes sense to me and I have the same problem. In fact, my reaction to "no" has been a huge problem for me and my M. I'll be interested to see if anyone has any advice.

Today I am triggering like a mad man. Earlier today I was going over a bunch of digital pictures I took over the period of the PA. I was looking at my W’s face on those pictures, looking into her eyes and thinking that at that time she was betraying me with the OM. She would kiss him at work on those days and then come home as if nothing happened. Then there were the pictures of the last party we all went to, just four days before the hardcore PA, the sex part. My mind has been going over all these things all day today and it’s making me sick to be around my W. I feel like being nasty with her, I feel like making snide remarks to hurt her and bother her. I should get a medal for not yelling at her. Yet I try to remain as civil as I can but she is no fool and she knows that something is wrong. She knows that it’s not a good day for me and I can see that she keeps her distance. Such a shame to waste valuable time on such negative emotions. It could be such a nice day today but I have the burden of the A on my shoulders and it’s preventing me from doing anything.

trigger days suck

it will not always be like this

I promise

How can your wife help you out today?

Pep

Asterix - I think you do deserve a medal. I really don't know how you and other BH's whose W's have had PA's do it. My W "only" had and EA and it drives me crazy. I can't imagine a PA.

About 6 weeks ago I gave W a very nice piece of jewelry for an anniversary present. It's a bracelet that is literally screwed onto her arm - so it's very hard to get on and off - in fact, she hasn't taken it off since then - I went to a lot of trouble to get it - had to call a store in New York and have it FedEx'd - a very nice present -

at the time she promised she wasn't calling OM anymore and I meant it as a sign of starting over etc. on our anniversary - of course, she was still calling him etc. and now that's what I think of when I see that bracelet - the fact that that (*&^% was still calling him - I hate that bracelet now and it's always on her arm - a constant trigger - you do deserve a medal and more.

Pepperband - I hope you're right. I am not sure there is anything they can do. My W doesn't even really try.

Yes I guess that a PA is worse than an EA, but we are only talking about different shades of ‘bad’. Still I wish that I was only dealing with an EA – but at the same time I wonder if my W would have admitted to an EA, she would have probably seen nothing wrong with it and would probably have just considered it a ‘friendship’. Have you demanded NC from your W? What was her response? Also, have you told the OMW about the EA? What did she say? Are you sure that there was no PA in your case? How do you know? In any case I think that it’s literally impossible to start true R unless there is a firm NC.

Hey, sorry to hear you're having a rough day. Triggers will become fewer and farther in between. In the meantime, you just have to weather the storm. Your emotions will batter the heck out of you. Just remember that you are actually doing most of the battering yourself.

Here's a quote: "You can't stop a bird from flying over your head, but you can stop it from making a nest in your hair."

You can't stop a trigger from setting off some negative emotions, but you can decide to purposely shift your thinking and location and activity to another mode. Don't let the feelings nest in your hair.

Hang in there!

Asterix,

I won't address the triggers, others can offer you good advice. I personally would consider getting rid of those pictures if they are a trigger. But, that is your call.

I would like to address your comments about the SF issue. It is time you two worked together. Have you explained to your W that SF is an EMOTIONAL need? That it is listed as it is in Harley's books and questionaires. Have you explained that SF makes you feel closer to her emotionally?
Have you explained that her having SF with you allows you to reclaim in your mind a bit more of the marriage each time?

If you have repeat these things, if you have not it is time to state them clearly. However, when you do, acknowledge that she feels pressured. But, here is the point does she feel pressured emotionally or physically? Would she feel better if you turned things over to her and let her address the SF need and make it her responsibility? Would she better if YOU had the say on when and how? OR, would she feel better if "not tonight" is an exceptible answer?

If the latter is her choice there are ways for her to do this WITHOUT rejecting you. One simple way is for HER to schedule at that point when the next time will be. You don't feel rejected when she is on her period do you? Why? You know this is natural and normal. So why not other times? Because you don't know if "not tonight" means I really really don't want to have SF with YOU, or it means I am a bit tired and would really enjoy it a bit later, perhaps tomorrow morning, or next Tues. or whatever.

She needs to understand that "not tonight" with no suggestion of a replacement time, sounds like a flat rejection and given the circumstances has implications that are not very pleasant for you or her.

If she felt she could "just say no" but not reject you, then there would be less pressure. You don't have to apologize for loving her, for wanting to be emotionally and physically connected with her, and to do what nature designed us to do.

The real issue is the message she has been sending by handling things the way she has versus in a way that you both accept.

Does this make sense? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

Yes I realize that it’s all in my head. I feel that I have done a little bit better at managing my emotions and preventing triggers from reaching their ‘full potential’ but I am still struggling. When my thoughts focus on the physical aspects of the A they are especially difficult to manage. I feel so much resentment and ‘disgust’ for my W when that happens that it makes it impossible for me to even get physically close to her. So I keep my distance. Yesterday the trigger was so bad that it basically affected me all day. I ended up going though her PDA, her email system, her cell phone records, and through her work archives (paperwork she brought back with her right after the PA). I don’t know what I was looking for: some clue maybe that she was still lying to me, something that would keep ‘vilifying her’, something that would justify my emotions, something that I could use to throw the A in her face again – I just don’t know. Sometimes I wonder if this is not borderline OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder).

Obviously my W can sense that something is wrong and she keeps her distance as well. She asked me how things were going, what was bothering me, etc. She also told me that she was disappointed that we weren’t having a better weekend – she was working on Sat. and was hoping that we could have a good time together on Sun. That didn’t happen.

We are doing our best to discuss this issue. I have indeed told her that this was an emotional need of mine, and an important one. This also came through when we each filled out the EN questionnaire a couple of weeks after D-Day. She knows that SF makes me more relaxed, more affectionate, more patient, etc. She also knows that I do a 180 if I don’t get SF (it is her fear/discomfort with these negative side effects that make her feel ‘pressured to perform’). This being said I don’t think that I was as eloquent as you are in explaining the importance of SF. I like the words you use like “reclaiming in your mind a bit more of the marriage each time”.

I am not sure I understand the question. Obviously I don’t “force” her so she shouldn’t feel pressured physically. I think that the pressure is at an emotional level, she is basically worried about my behavior around her if I don’t get SF.

That’s an interesting suggestion but I am not sure that I understand that it would imply. Note that, IMO, she already decides “when” we will have SF. She knows that I am “ready to go” all the time so SF is really up to her. I just don’t know if she sees SF as a ‘marital duty’ or ‘marital responsibility’ – she basically feels that it should only happen if we both feel like doing it, which really translates to when she feels like doing it. She clearly stated that she doesn’t fell good when she ‘forces herself’ – and to tell you the truth I don’t like the sound of that either.

I doubt it – if it was up to me it would probably be every night and her SF appetite is not that high. Also see the comment above about ‘forcing herself’, that just wouldn’t work. She would probably feel like a piece of trash, an object that I am just using to satisfy my needs.

Yes this is it. That’s really what she wants. She says that there are some days when she feels like having SF with me and other days where she just doesn’t (for whatever reason). She feels that I have a right to ask to have SF (and she supposedly doesn’t have a problem with that) but she should have the right to say ‘no’ without having to face all the negative consequences. She would basically want her ‘no’ to indeed be an acceptable answer.

Sounds good to me but I doubt that she would feel comfortable committing to when the next time will be. This being said I do think that the way she communicates the ‘no’ could be improved and I have already told her that. The problem today is that the ‘no’ is associated with stress and anxiety. She is probably worried about the negative consequences and I see her body language changing. She will have a tendency to distance herself after the ‘no’, roll to her side of the bed, etc. In fact what could help me is for her to be extremely affectionate and tender after the ‘no’, saying something like ‘honey, I love you very much but I just don’t feel like SF tonight, can we just cuddle, can I just hold you?” – you know, something like that. Something that ‘lets me down easy’, where maybe the absence of SF can be replaced with warmth, affection, and care for my feelings. Today I feel that she says ‘no’ and just lets me deal with the negative feelings. I don’t know if it’s fair to expect her to manage my emotions and insecurities.

Yes you are right; this is a big issue right now. I think that the solution can indeed be found in better communications. If she can find a way to ‘let me down easy’ I think that I would do a much better job at handling the ‘no’ and no longer perceive it as ‘rejection.

Asterix - The only way I know there was no PA is the phone calls I have heard - from those, I am as sure as I can be there was no PA. But you know, you are totally right - it's just different shades of bad.

W has tried to minimize it exactly as you descrribed. I have told OMW and she didn't like it either, although I can't really tell where she is.

I have demanded NC.

Thanks.

193296 – Glad to hear that there was no PA in your case. I am sure that an EA is no walk in the park either for the BS but at least there are just certain triggers you have to deal with. Telling the OMW and demanding NC was the right thing to do.

How do you define an EA in your case, and more specifically where does the ‘friendship’ end and the EA begin? I guess that it’s all in the definition of the boundaries. Which boundaries did you W cross? Just curious.

It's hard to say specifically, really it's more of "you know it when you see it".

In my case it was lengthy phone calls (hours), sneaking around, lying about it on more than one occasion and just the subjects they were talking about - and they did hold hands once.

if you look at descriptions of EA's in books, this site etc. - W's EA fits it pretty easily. I think you are right in that a PA may be worse only in the triggers and things to think about - I'll never believe that W's EA would not have led to a PA if I hadn't intervened when I did - I guess it still could actually.

193296 - I get the feeling, through your posts, that the EA is still not over or at least that NC is not being respected. Is that right? Is that why you feel that a PA is still possible?

In any case it’s clear that whether we are talking about EA or PA we still share the common element of ‘deception’. IMO it is this deception and betrayal that are also very difficult to handle because this is a facet of my W’s personality that I don’t recognize at all. I just never thought that my W would be able to do the things she did and still hide it from me for 7 months after the PA. I sincere hope that this was just a temporary moment of ‘insanity’ and that this is not a long lasting trait of character. The fact that she eventually came clean about the A and is trying her best to make our R successful tell me that this is not who she really is, at least that’s what I would like to believe.

Still I really wonder if we are going to be successful in the end – more specifically I really wonder if “I” will be able to move on.

Asterix,

I my mind, I beleive that you should have this WHOLE discussion with her and offer her ALL of the alternatives discussed here and more if you have more. The solicit her ideas for how to deal with this. Repeat what I said about your feelings and such.

You see you are making a DJ if you think you know what she wants or thinks. Speak with her, but offer her lots of options even if some of them seem really off the wall. Discuss how you and she would implement each and every one. Discuss the strong points, the weak points, the show stoppers.

As you do this you two will learn to open up and begin to look for solutions rather than things that do not work. She does have an obligation to meet your needs it is part of what she vowed. We ALL know she would be happier if the why to meet them was ENTHUSIASTICALLY agreed upon by both of you.

You don't realize this, but IF you will bring her into these discussions in a calm, fair and friendly way, where the goal is to make BOTH of you happy, you will begin to remove some of the barriers she has erected. It will also help you overcome your anger and other triggers.

Whether you like the ideas I had or not, discuss them with her, and solicit her ideas. NO ONE LIKES TO BE REJECTED. She does not, you do not. So the issue of handling the sex especially during this healing process is very very important to both of you.

You need a lot of reassurance on many levels discuss this with her. Your goal???? It is to heal and feel comfortable in your marriage again. But, you have an additional goal and that is to make her comfortable and feel good in your marriage again.

Do you see the plot here? It is for you two to really learn how to negotiate and the first part is to put ANY and ALL ideas on the table even IF neither of you like them. Why? Often times when discussing why neither of you like something you will learn something about one another,and it will help in discussing the options that might appeal to one or both of you.

God Bless,

JL

Asterix - I really don't think the EA is still going on - but I have been wrong before so I am still leery. I do think NC has been maintained, but I was wrong about that before too.

One bad thing about an EA is they can try to say they were just friends and still are. That's BS, of course, but they can still try (be pretty hard if PA).

I feel the same as you about the rest of what you said. Not sure I can move on either.

Interesting way to put it, I never looked at it like that – and I am not sure she does either. I guess that my goal is to make her ‘want to’, rather than ‘have to’.

I do get your message about ‘joint agreement’, I know that this is where we need to get to, and I also know that we haven’t reached it yet. We will keep trying with the suggestions that you offer: basically brainstorming, and hopefully finding a solution that we both ‘enthusiastically’ agree to.

Yes I do. I feel especially insecure since D-Day. A stream of ‘no’ day after day doesn’t do much to reassure me…

I perfectly understand your doubts about the EA and NC. When you have been burnt once it’s hard to believe again. In my case, and even though I have absolutely no evidence or even ‘reason to believe’ that they are still in contact, I still check her email system, her PDA, her voice mail, and everything I can get my hands on. Sometime I even think that I am still looking for evidence of the A, even though she has admitted to the A – strange! I am sure that a shrink would be able to put a label on this behavior…
I just know that this behavior of mine is not ‘healthy’, it doesn’t make me feel good and it keeps me firmly stuck in the A. At the same time it’s not yet possible for me to trust her again and give her the benefit of the doubt. With time I am sure that it will improve.

Asterix - I do exactly the same thing - check everything I can. That is what made me suspicious about contact. Nothing concrete, but I heard a few things that tipped me off - turned out I was right. Nothing particularly major, but it had been going on for 2 more mos. without my knowing it - I am back to square one (or really square negative) - of course, they were just friends....

I hope you are right about time helping - I think it was for me before I started all over.

As far as my W's A is concerned I was suspicious before the PA took place, and between the PA and D-Day - this spanned probably close to 9 months. I must have been sensing something because I don't have a suspicious nature. I think that when you have lived with someone for many years you can detect little changes in their behavior and a bunch of alarms go off at an subconscious level. While I acknowledged those alarms (and started checking her voice mail regularly for instance), I was doing it more out of due diligence than anything else. I still refused to believe that an A could really be going on. I just thoughts that my W was incapable of such acts. I spent those 9 months thinking that I was overreacting and being paranoid. The fact that my W denied the A several times before D-Day reinforced a lot of those feelings (but still I knew that something wasn't right, and that's why I keep confronting her about the A until D-Day).

Asterix-

Hi there. Would it be possible for you to sit down and talk to her in this way- you tell her how many times you'd like to have SF per week. Then she says how many times she'd like to have it per week. Should your frequency be alot higher- such as everyday- when hers is two times per week see if you can both compromise and get to a number that's reasonable. In my marriage, I would prefer SF three times a week or more. My husband would prefer twice so we negotiate so that we're both pleased. Some weeks it's three and some weeks it's two.

My husband had a problem with rejection in his prior marriage. He came up with the idea that each partner should have a candle on their side of the bed. If one partner is interested they light their candle. If the other partner comes through the room and sees the candle is lit- they have the option to either blow out the candle or to light theirs. If they light their's then their partner knows that night they will have SF. The catch is, if your partner blows out your candle you may not relight it that day.

I thought this was a great idea but we went a bit further. We saw a cute pillow on our honeymoon that says Tonight on one side and Not Tonight on the other. So we use that to let the other know we're interested in the same fashion.

asterix,
I feel and behave the same way. Should I ask my WH to put a label on that since he is a freaking shrink? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

About your trip to Europe. Where do you go? I just thought of the picnic in Versailles garden on warm Sunday in May when the fountains are working and music is playing. Both of you would love that if you never went there.

Our communications around SF simply suck and they end up being a great source of stress and anxiety for both of us. Yesterday we had a great evening together, when we got to bed my W even thanked me for the evening and told me that she had a lot of fun. We talk a little while longer then I get close to her and I start caressing her. At that time she stops my hand and tells me that she feels ticklish. Her skin is apparently very sensitive when she is tired. Bottom line I can’t touch her (other than holding her hand) – hard to initiate SF when you cannot touch someone. She makes not other comment and I see that she is trying to asleep. This morning as we wake up I roll next to her and I caress her, give her a kiss, and tell her that I want to make love to her. I get a plain ‘no’. I then ask if we can plan to have SF tonight and she simply says ‘I don’t know if I will feel like it tonight’ – she then gets up and gets ready for work. No other words about it. I just wish that even if she didn’t feel like having SF she could communicate that with me a little better, let me down easy, and still give me some reassurances. I feel so insecure at this time and the way she says ‘no’ makes it a lot worse for me. Another side effect is that I am now so used to the ‘no’ that my requests for SF are stressed, sad, defeatist, almost negative. Bottom line I am gun shy.

Coachswife – I will initiate the conversation about SF frequency with her. If behavior predicts, I assume that she will tell me that she can’t answer that question, that there isn’t a ‘number’ that she feels comfortable with. I find that my W’s SF appetite is fairly low, I am sure that she would feel comfortable with once a week, maybe even less than that (once every couple of weeks). My W has also said many times that she can’t have SF if she doesn’t feel an ‘emotional connection’ – bottom line if we have had a bad day or if I have been distant, stressed, and negative – then SF is out of question. My W’s energy level in the evening really drops (she is a morning person). The first thought in her mind when she gets to bed is ‘sleep’, not intimacy/SF. Once again these are my perceptions – I think that they are right but I will pop the question just in case.

I like your suggestions about the pillow, the candles, etc. – ways to communicate the ‘mood’. I really think that we need to try something like that. It would probably make it easier for her to communicate her mood and it would make it easier for me to manage my own expectations. I will propose this approach and see how she reacts.

Maril – I will be going to Germany for work. This being said I have been to Versailles (actually French is my native language) and I am familiar with the location you mention.

i know finding out about an affair can throw you for a loop.but wanting to know specific sex acts performed during the course of an affair can be more than you need to know.your mind might want to know but your heart doesn't.i am so sorry you are going through this.i know it hurts.i hope you find the reason you two got together in the first place and can rekindle the flame.

Asterix -

Through all of this it seems to me like you're the one doing all the work. All the reading, all the thinking, all the growing, all the changing, all the talking. Your posts don't seem to indicate any real change in your W's behavior. I apologize if this seems like a DJ but I call 'em as I see 'em.

Obviously both of you created the environment which made it possible for her to have an A. Her actually stepping out and having the A was 100% her choice. You are working hard to change the environment of your marriage. What is your W doing differently?

Bitbucket – Interesting question. I think that my W and I have a very different way of handling the situation. My personality lends me to a lot of introspection, a lot of thinking about the A, its meaning, its causes, and its ramifications. I do a lot of reading and a lot of posting on this site. The type of job I do also enables me to do that as I am sitting in front of a computer for most of the day.

Since D-Day I have made some changes in my behavior. For instance since early April I no longer ask questions about the details of the A. This was a big challenge for me but it was clear that the constant questioning was hurting my W and was also counterproductive in terms of R. Other than that my emotions are still very unstable, although there has been a slight trend of improvement.

In a lot of ways I think that it is true that I have taken the ‘driver seat’ in this R – I guess that someone always has to. I initiated MC, made the appointments, etc. I bought the book and asked my W to read it. But I think that a lot of those differences are due to differences in our personality and not necessary differences in our commitment to R.

Actually I would say that my W’s behavior has changed a lot. First and foremost, she told me the truth about the A. She put an end to the deception and the lying that had been going on for several months. She also tries to be very positive and focused on the present and future. She is trying to bring a sense of normalcy back in our M since D-Day. She has also been very supportive and very patient with my mood swings. She comes with me to MC every week and she sees value in it. She is really the one who brings positivity in our R.

Asterix - I can't tell you how familiar your SF situation sounds to me - it is very similar to mine. That being said, when you do talk to her about it, think about suggesting a schedule. As we've discussed before, it's not perfect, but I think it is better than where you are now.

Gosh, what is it about sex drives not being in sync? Here I am wishing my H would want it more and here you guys are thinking the same things about your wives!!

I'm glad my ideas were of some value to you. Here's a thought- do not bring up te conversation when you're both tired, angry or when she's just turned you down for SF. Make it a pleasant conversation about how you guys can each meet each other's mutual need.

I can't remember Asterix but are you helping her with the kids and house so that she is more energetic at night? What time do you guys go to bed? It might be helpful to go to bed earlier??? My husband and I try to go to our room at nine oclock- as soon as we tuck the kids in.

Actually I wrote and emailed a letter to my W this morning going over the ‘proposal’. I find that it is difficult for me to discuss these issues with her face to face. Writing it down enabled me to structure my thinking and make sure that I covered all the points.

I started the letter by telling her that I loved her and that I wanted to help in improving our relationship and our M. I then clearly stated my dissatisfaction with SF today. I also mentioned the importance that SF has for me (EN), and what it means to me (specifically in this post D-Day period).

I then acknowledged her perspective, specifically as it relates to the need to feel ‘emotionally connected’ as a pre-condition for SF. I indicated that I was also eager to regain the complicity and closeness that we once had. I do feel that as the emotional connection is re-established, a lot of the issues associated with SF will subside. But what we need “right now” is an interim plan, i.e. an approach to SF that we can follow as we are working on our R. It’s basically a plan to help me out, and consequently help her out.

For this interim plan I made two suggestions and two requests. The first suggestion was “coachswife”’s idea about the candle or some other indicator of the ‘mood’. Here I see a few advantages: first better communication about her ‘mood’ which will help me manage my expectations and hopefully mitigate those feelings of rejection. The second suggestion was to schedule SF, with the twist of making the SF-days a bit extra special for us (romance, massage, date, etc.). Here I see the same advantages as coachswife’s idea with the additional benefit of a certain commitment to ‘level of service’ or frequency in SF. Indeed with coachswife’s idea, the mood indicator could very well be ‘off’ all the time which wouldn’t address the issue at all.

My first request was for her to open up about her SF needs, just to make sure that she feels free to let me know what works for her and what doesn’t, what she wished I did or didn’t do when it came to SF. The second request was to ‘let me down easy’ when she didn’t want SF and work on her delivery of the ‘no’. I emailed the letter this morning. I hope that she will have time to read it today and get back to me.

Seams like you guys going to have a nice talk about it all soon <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Make sure you tell her you also need affection, and that not always means SF.

Believe me, it helps.

Just make sure that you cuddle her and tell her just that, I just need/want some affection, not SF.

You might be very often surprised by the times she'll be the one starting SF after those "only affection" moments.

Quote:
__________
My first request was for her to open up about her SF needs, just to make sure that she feels free to let me know what works for her and what doesn’t, what she wished I did or didn’t do when it came to SF.
____________________

And this is the key and probably your BIG step.
Once you two can discuss each ones's SF needs instead of "there's SF or not" you'll have half problem solved, and for a woman it only shows her, you want to please her, not "use her".

You might need to help her open up. Give her ideas and suggestions, tell her your own fantasies, give her time and she'll tell you her's.

Did you check that site? www.women.com ?
Good luck

Last night ended being a complete fiasco. My W read the letter I wrote and the only thing she had to say is that she couldn’t commit to an SF schedule. She basically says that it’s not something that she can force herself to do. She used the analogy of ‘Indian food’ – she says sometimes you want it and sometimes you don’t, and when you don’t, you can’t convince yourself that you do. WTF? She also said that she was worried that she couldn’t meet my SF needs. She didn’t really speak about any other part of the letter and I got the feeling that she had only given it a quick read. The ‘scheduling of SF’ is the thing that caught her attention and that’s the only thing she mentioned. I also think that it was the wrong time (late at night) and the wrong ‘mood’ (distant, stressed, and tired) to discuss something like that, so it didn’t go anywhere. I was frustrated that I had invested so much time in thinking about this problem, writing her a letter, etc. – and the only thing she did was to tell me that one of the suggestions wouldn’t work for her. She didn’t come back with any counter-offers.

Last night I was pretty ‘negative’ about our R. I started to realize that our M had been going downhill for quite some time already. I have not really enjoyed being around my W, I have been frustrated by the lack of SF, and I have had very little patience with her. On the other hand she has felt that she could never do anything right around me, that everything she would do would either be taken the wrong way, would frustrate me, or would anger me. As a result our relationship has suffered: we have hurt each other (emotionally) and neglected each other. I don’t know if it’s fair for me to say that but I actually feel responsible for that deterioration in our M. I know that ‘it takes two to tango’ but I think that I was the ‘difficult’ one: demanding, dissatisfied, frustrated, angry, and selfish. Now that I think about it, none of that has changed since D-Day – it has actually gotten worse. And despite that I am basically expecting her to do a 180 and be affectionate, sexual, and giving. That’s just not going to happen. As I have told the MC, I feel that I am by far the biggest risk in this R and I feel that in many ways the outcome will be heavily based on my own behavior and ability to change. I have to start accepting those responsibilities if I want this M to recover. That’s easier said than done because of the ambivalence of my feelings for my W, especially when I have triggers about the PA. It’s hard to get over the fact that your own W was intimate with an OM – the thought is simply sickening and so painful.

Maybe I should just simplify things right now. I was thinking that I should stop focusing on SF and let things happen naturally. I can’t force SF, I can’t demand SF, I can’t convince her to have SF – that just doesn’t work – and if anything it will add stress and frustration to a situation that is already complex enough. Instead I should focus on re-establishing the friendship bound with my W, learning to simply enjoy ‘togetherness’, getting simple pleasures from her company without automatically assuming that ‘being nice’ should be rewarded with SF. I should focus on giving her attention and rediscovering in her character and personality all the things that I first fell in love with. Hopefully she will rediscover the same things in me as well. It’s funny that this is what she has been telling me all along but I think that for the first time I really understand and buy into what she meant. Ben Franklin defined insanity as doing the same things and expecting a different result. I think that it’s time for me to make some significant and lasting changes in my behavior.

Asterix - As I have told you before, I have been exactly where you are - and still am. My M deteriorated also largely because of my frustration with SF - and my reaction to perceived rejection.

You are right, I think, in that you do need to change yourself as you described. I have been trying very hard to do that myself for the past 3 mos. I don't know if it is working, or if it ever will work, but I do know that she has noticed the effort (I am also to the point where I will continue to try and would like it to work out, but I don't really care if it doesn't either).

The frustrating thing is that your W may not always help you or respond like she should - that makes it very hard - not just with SF, but SF is part of it.

So, I think you need to try, if you want to more forward. On the other hand, don't blame yourself for everything. You are only responsible for 50% of your M. Do what you can do, but don't beat yourself up.

I'm sorry that my suggestions didn't help! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The issue with the SF for you is also regaining what you lost and what you feel that OM took away, I believe. Sort of like marking your territory and proving that you're more desireable etc. All normal to me, and probably won't last but you're just recovering. I'm not sure why she doesn't get that??

I think you're making excellent progress in your disection of what you need to do as far as learning your wife and discovering her again. As a woman, if my husband said those things to me it would sound wonderful to me.

Yes, she needs to feel emotionally intimate with you to have sex, I get that. The thing is, though, it should be her that controls SF- and she is in the position to do that now. She's not looking at it as something mutually to be shared between two loving adults. It's more of her holding something that you want. That's unfortunate and I'm only hoping that your rediscovering her emotionally might perhaps help that.

I certainly don't believe that alot of women get it as far as how important SF is to a man. We don't understand it, and it's taken me many years and a divorce to learn it.

I just had a very nice chat with my W on the phone over lunch. I apologized for last night. I also told her that I had a little moment of clarity this morning regarding our relationship. I told her that my focus on SF was probably the wrong way to approach R, like trying to harvest the fruit before planting the seeds. Instead I told her that I wanted to refocus on our friendship and the more fundamental bond that we use to have (and still have fragments of). I told her that I wanted us to learn to enjoy each other’s company again, and become each other’s primary source of support and companionship. This was like music to her ears and she said that she agreed with me and that it sounded like a good plan. In her heart she knows that I am not trying to hurt her on purpose, she also knows that I want to rebuild our complicity and friendship but she realizes that it’s difficult for me. It’s difficult because of the ambivalence of my feelings towards her and the instability of my moods. Yet my apologies and my explanation of this moment of clarity made her feel good. After that we engaged in a nice little conversation about the kids and the activities for the week. It feels so good to have a normal chat with her, about life, about good things, about positive things. I miss my friend, my companion, and I hope that I can find her again.

Yes that’s a big test of our resolve to work towards R. We may not always get the response, support, or encouragement that we need, when we need it, and in the way that we need it. I anticipate that and I know that it’s not going to be easy on me. But in a way I am also tired to always see SF as the ultimate reward for good behavior. I am tired of waiting for the evening to get my “prize”. I no longer want to be nice just in the hope of getting SF because then, if I don’t get SF I am frustrated, angry, disappointed, and demotivated. I want to be nice for the sake of being nice, for the sake of making my W happy. I want to enjoy her company throughout the day, not just at night anxiously waiting for the right time to make my move. I want to ‘plant those seeds’ and hopefully SF will come naturally. It’s maybe by defocusing on SF that we enable SF.

Yeah I know…My W has accepted her responsibilities for the A and I would like to accept my responsibilities for my share of the M. It takes humility to change.

Yes that’s probably part of it. Aside from pure sex drive, there are probably a lot of insecurities behind this need for SF. It’s definitely a way to be reassured as a man and a lover, and reclaiming what was taken away from me. But once again I see this focus on SF as doing more harm than good. I am just focusing on a ‘symptom’ not the root cause.

Two of my best buddies are going exactly through the same thing with their W’s right now. One of them has basically given up on even asking his W for SF – their love making is few and far in between and it seems that he has learned to manage his expectations accordingly. If you look at the ‘7 kinds of sex’ post above, he tells me that at best it was a type-3 (bedroom). It seems that SF was never very passionate between them. Another buddy of mine is on the same boat. He literally begs his W for SF every night. He keeps trying but without much enthusiasm. He has the feeling that his W ‘throws him a bone’ every now and then but that she is not into it. The interesting part is that both of these guys admit being vulnerable to A because of it. They say that they love their W’s and their kids but this is such an important unmet EN for them that they are thinking about risking it all to get some satisfaction. So far they have been able to resist the temptation but I don’t think that their W’s understand the criticality of this risk.

They most certainly do not. Women do not understand the testosterone behind those needs and how great it is for a man- just as emotional needs are THAT important to a woman. I'm not saying that women do not have affairs for sex- but I would think the majority is not for that. I know mine wasn't. Funny thing is is that my exhusband could have certainly have had an affair due to his sexual needs not being met- but because he was so reluctant to even attempt to meet my emotional needs I no longer cared.
That is what I mean about the competition and seeing who gives in first. That just sets up a vicious cycle that no one wins at.

What really changed my thinking on the issue is the reading that I've done here and on other sites. I also had the benefit of hearing my now husbands story about how his first wife rejected him continually for SF and how that made him feel (she was having an affair at the time) When he put it in a way that I could connect emotionally to it made a huge difference to me. My exhusband always made it about what he wanted that I wasn't giving him rather than the emotions that went behind it and what it meant to him on that level.

Hi,

Recently I found out that my husband had an sexual encounter with a young lady that he met on his job. However, it has been months since they have worked together and wondered why that relationship continued in the first place. On several occasions I asked him were they involved with each other and he denied it each time. I also had previously told him that I felt that he was emotionally attached to her which made him furious. I asked him on numerous occasions to discontinue but he did not. Then about a month and a half ago he said that relationship turned intimate one night and that it only happened that one time and that they both decided not to see each other. However, they continued to send each other text messages and emails. It was not until two weeks ago that he decided to tell me. We agreed on going to counseling to recociled our marriage and now she is saying that she is pregnant and wants to have this child. She continues to call and text him daily and he accepts them from. I told him that I disapprove of them communicating so much. Am I wrong for feeling this way? I feel if she is planning on keeping this child that she should only contacting him en reference to that child and nothing us. Not her problems at home or anything! We have two children of our own: a two year and a 9 nine month old. He has a 12 year son (prior to our relationship). This whole situation is out of character for him I guess thats why I am in shock. I Love my husband but, I don't want to be anyones fool.

Mdwife – First I would recommend that you start a separate thread to discuss these issues. It will make it easier for you to see the replies to your post and keep them all in the same location. This being said I want to say that I am really sorry to hear about your story and I understand how shocked, angry, and sad you must feel at this time. The news of a child, allegedly conceived during the A, adds a layer of complexity to the R. I have to admit that I am not familiar with such situations but I am sure that other members of MB will be able to assist you. I guess that first of all the paternity needs to be established. Paternity tests are common place now and before you get too worried about this pregnancy I would recommend that this be clarified. Until such paternity is established you should demand absolute NC between your H and the OM – their contacts are only prolonging their relationship and this is not healthy for your M.

This past evening was quiet and uneventful, probably because my W worked the night shift so I was just with the kids at home. I ended up watching some TV and staying up late. Speaking about TV, it amazes me to see how much Hollywood trivializes A’s. There are literally everywhere. There was a “Sex in the City” rerun last night where it shows a WH having a passionate PA with one of the main character. The show makes it sound perfectly normal. In one of the last episodes of the Sopranos, we see Tony flirting with a real estate agent, eventually leading to a ‘make-out’ session in her apartment. The interesting part is that Tony (who has had numerous PA’s before) finally feels some guilt and leaves her apartment before it goes any further. Then yesterday I am listening to the radio. One of the radio host said that when she was a freshman in College, her and her dorm roommates ran a contest for a year trying to see how many marriages they could break. They would go to bars, flirt with married men, go as far as having SF with them, and then call their W’s and tell them what happened. In a year, she reported that they had broken ‘dozens’ of marriages. When you consider the pain that A’s cause on BS and their families, they should literally be considered as forms of ‘abuse’ or ‘cruel and unusual punishment’.

Asterix - You are right about TV. I don't see how those people can trivialize A's like they do. Even before it happened to me, I hated to see it on TV, movies etc. I am not really "Mr. Conservative" when it comes to TV and movies (i.e. don't mind blood, guts, nudity etc.), but A's always bothered me. I guess it's because in most respects, it's the ultimate betrayal. I can't imagine any betrayal that's worse. Maybe there is, but I can't imagine it.

We had another MC session last night. As usual no direct discussion about the A itself but I have come to expect that. This time most of the discussions were focused on my W. That’s a good thing because I have the feeling that I have done most of the talking so far.

My W spoke a lot about my ‘ups and downs’ or the emotional roller-coaster I have been on since D-Day. She said that my moods are very unpredictable and it makes it difficult for her to get close to me or be constantly affectionate and giving (as I want her to be). She often doesn’t know what she is going to get when we are together: affection or anger.

We also spend a good chunk of time discussing our relationship before the A. She perceived that I was ‘disinterested’ in her. She felt that I had ‘emotionally left her’ at the time. She also explained that I always seemed very critical of her that she had the feeling that she was never doing or saying the right thing, that I was very frustrated and discontent with her. She didn’t get the feeling that I was happy to be with her. She was lonely and sad. Interestingly none of this was explicitly presented as causes for the A. Actually even if there hadn’t been an A, we could have had the exact same conversation. We talked about our personalities, our differences, but also our complementarity.

The SF issues came up briefly. I got a chance to explain my feelings of rejection, my need for reassurance, the emotional needs that it satisfies, etc. My W obviously expressed her point of view, mainly the fact that it was difficult for her to be physically close when there was so much emotional turmoil and stress between us. I also spoke about my ‘moment of clarity’, realizing that I needed to refocus my attention and energy towards friendship, companionship, ‘togetherness’ with my W. “Planting the seeds before trying to harvest the fruit” – developing all the other forms of intimacy first (emotional, etc) and then let sexual intimacy happen naturally. The MC though that it was a “good” epiphany and obviously approved of the approach – so did my W. At this time I hope that I will be able to do this with my testosterone banging on the door…
As for the feeling of rejection, the MC suggested that I let my W initiate SF – like that I wouldn’t feel ‘rejected’. I guess that I could do that but part of me wonders how often that will happen.

The rest of the evening went well. We had a good chat (not about the A or MC) on the way back home. At night we were both pretty tired. My W hugged me and said that she was really sorry that I had to go through all this. That was a nice moment.

This is probably my last post for a few days as we are heading for Europe. The weekend has been super-crappy so far despite the fact that it started well on Friday night. Friday night we went to a function organized by her employer. I was on my best behavior: social, funny, upbeat, etc. On the way back home she was already telling me that she couldn’t wait to be comfy in her pajamas and fall asleep. I took it to mean that there was no SF on the horizon and my mood started to get darker. We got home and as predicted she got ready for bed and fell asleep quickly.

Saturday I was pretty distant, we didn’t talk much and didn’t do much together. I was in a rotten mood probably still due to my ‘disappointment’ on Friday night. During the afternoon I tried to be nicer, gave her a hug and asked her for a peck on the lips, to which she said ‘no’. As she said no to the kiss a big black cloud came into my thoughts. I felt so rejected again, so unattractive, literally repulsive. The rest of the day went down hill from there. At night I started to make comments about the A – saying how maybe I should call the OM and ask him for pointers on how to be attractive to her – because obviously it worked for him but it’s not working for me. I told her that I felt so unattractive and repulsive around her. She would respond things like “I love you, I care for you, I desire you, etc” but I kept telling her that her behavior didn’t demonstrate those feelings – that I felt ugly and unattractive to her. She would then say that it was impossible for her to feel ‘sexual’ towards me if she felt that I was angry, distant, and unpredictable. She was getting pretty upset during that conversation and we barely spoke for the rest of the night.

This Sunday morning was pretty much the same thing. When she had the PA I noticed that she had taken some ‘sexy underwear’ with her on her trip. A few weeks ago when I had confronted her about that, asking her if she had planned the SF with the OM, she would always say that she hadn’t planned it (she still confirms that to this day) and that she didn’t remember picking those out specifically. As she was packing for our trip to Europe I noticed that she hadn’t packed anything sexy at well, just plain cotton underwear. That triggered me big time and I started asking her why she wasn’t taking sexy stuff with her like she had during the PA. She wouldn’t really answer anything. Eventually she said that she probably picked them out at the time ‘because she felt sexy’. At those words I literally exploded. I threw a pile of her underwear in the air and I went to the bathroom to take my shower. We haven’t spoken much since then.

So that’s basically where I stand right now. I have no idea how this trip is going to go. My expectations are at rock bottom. That’s all for now folks, I might try to write something up when I am over there. If not, you will hear back from me when I get back. Please pray for us.

Asterix,

I know this is going to sound harsh. I also know you did not have the affair. But, when is it going to get into your thick head that your H has NO sexual desire for you? When?

You don't have to keep looking for clues such as what she is packing. You simply have to listen to her. She has stated that she has no interest in you sexually. It is time to ACCEPT that. No need to talk to her about it, no need to EXPECT IT on Fri night. NO need to check her underwear drawer. SHE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU.

Got it? If not get it. The only issues left to be determined is how are you going to deal with this FACT. You can continue to treat her well as you would a wife, and in a manner a wife deserves. You can decide to end the marriage. YOu can decide to give her the cold shoulder, which will make sure that she is willing to divorce you.

So many things you can do, some of them are even good and not destructive, but GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEAD SHE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU. No amount of expectation, discussion, cohersion is going to change that. You know what may change it, but you refuse to do that.

WAKE UP BOY! The train is leaving and you are still standing at the station looking for an airplane.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I disagree. I think she does want to have sex with him but obviously he needs it more often than she does. More than likely it's his withdrawing from her and acting ugly when he is told "Not tonight" is what makes her turn from him.

Your actions were AO's Asterix. You need to learn how to curb those.

Little update from the road. Things kind of got ugly at the airport as we were waiting for the plane. My W was pretty much crying the whole time and she couldn’t stop, she was really hurt about the way I had treated her earlier. She told me that she couldn’t go on like that and couldn’t stand being treated that way. I profusely apologized for my behavior and focused on being very nice and very affectionate with her during the trip – it took a while (it’s a good thing that those transatlantic flights are over 9 hour long) but she eventually started to feel better and we had a pretty good flight together. Our first day in Germany was great. We talk to each other a lot, we took a long walk, we had a couple of wonderful meals – basically we had a great time together – and guess what…we had SF twice on the first day! So Just Learning, I disagree with you that my W just doesn’t want to have SF with me. She does, but as coachswife said just not as often as I do (actually coachswife’s post is a perfect summary of the current situation). There lies my challenge as I have a hard time dealing with the ‘not tonight’. At this point it triggers me and it worries my W as my behavior is often unpredictable in those cases.

I would LOVE to go to Germany someday. Never been out of this hemisphere. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Where all are you going? I thought you mentioned Versailles but can't remember.

Glad to hear things are trending up for you.

I say anger on your part is normal, healthy, and expected, given what your wife has put you through. It's what you *do* with that anger that is what shows up to your wife - do you get mad and throw a tantrum? Pout and sulk? Suck it up and internalize it until you explode later? Walk around the block until you've walked it off?

Or can you calmly explain to your wife that a trigger has been pulled, and that you need a little bit of extra support and understanding right now? BS's *will* trigger, and the FWS needs to be supportive. After all, they are the ones who had the A and created the triggers in the first place. They should *not* get the luxury of "let's just put it all behind us and move forward". You will trigger for months or years, and your W needs to understand her role in having created that.

Regarding SF - your W sounds a bit like mine. At home it's hard to get her enthused about SF due to tiredness and being surrounded by routine. When we go to a hotel (without our son) she turns into a tiger.

Anyway, have a great trip!

You have to be VERY patient. It takes time.

It's going to be a while until she realizes/believes that you just want a kiss and just a kiss and that it doesn't means SF.

Just be affectionate without really expecting SF. (and don't really expect it) And dont forget this fase mith take a looonnng time.Depends on how much time you have together.

She really needs to feel that you can control your desire.
She really needs to feel that you can be trully afectionate without expecting SF.
That you really love her and that you're such a great man that you can control it. Belive me women love it. (sounds like they enjoy torturing men... but it isn't, it's just that for women SF is strongly emotional)

Don't think about the OM or what happened. She was living an higly emotional fantasy and probably not even enjoyed the experience but it was just part of the game, of the excitment of the whole out of reality situation.

And never mention the A when you're upset about the "not tonight".

Don't become distant when there's no SF. This is keeping the cycle you want to get out from.

Yesterday my W pretty much spent the whole day at the hotel, resting, watching some movies, doing some crosswords – she needed the rest and I am glad that she had a quiet day – given her heavy work schedule when we are back home this was truly a nice break for her. When I got back to the hotel after work she seemed really happy to see me, gave me a big hug, and made me feel really good. We got ready and went out for a walk downtown and had dinner in a fancy restaurant. We had a great evening together, we talked, we joked, we held hands, and we were both very relaxed.

When we got back the hotel I sensed that she was getting a bit more distant. I talked to her about it and she told me that bed time is kind of stressful for her. She obviously remembers the arguments that we have had after some of the ‘not tonight’ and she doesn’t know how I am going to react if she tells me that she doesn’t feel like having SF. It was difficult for me to hear that my W was stressed about going to bed with me but I understand that my behavior has somewhat ‘traumatized’ her and made the whole SF thing more stressful than it should be. I definitely know that I need to handle that better. The huffing/puffing, the restlessness, and in some cases bringing up the A or a ton of negative comments after being ‘rejected’ is not good for me, and not good for her – in anything it reinforces the stress around SF and makes the situation even worse. I gave her a hug, told her that I understood her point of view and didn’t envy her situation either. We cuddled and fell asleep quietly. And then this morning we had SF!

So far this week I have had to fight quite a few triggers. They are like bugs that creep into my head – they are negative, insidious, and hurtful. When they appear I now have this mental picture of throwing a big heavy stop sign at them and squishing them. And it seems to work – I chase the triggers from my brain and it gives me a sense of control and some peace. This has enabled me to limit the effect that those triggers have on my mood and overall behavior.

Glad to see things are going better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take it slowly, really slowly.

That's what I was trying to tell you all along... but I am really bad in english writing.

You nicely accepted that you were not going to have SF that night... she really apreciated it... and in the morning it just came naturaly right?

Just the fact you talked about not having SF triggers her to desire it, speccialy after you understood it.

Take it easy she's full of those kind of srtessful moments... and back home they will continue for a while.

Good for you A!

What she sees is that you are like a pouting child- throwing a fit and getting disrespectful when you don't get your way. That's not adult behavior. I can totally understand about bedtime being stressful for her. In my first M- everytime my husband touched me, he would want SF- never to cuddle etc. So, I grew accustomed to when he touched me, it meant he wanted SF and I would shy away from that touch. Then if he didn't get SF he would pout and continue to beg like a child, please please please. He'd say "You might as well do it- it will take a few minutes and it will be over quicker than me continuing to ask". Well that really turned me on!

This is why women make up headaches when they don't want to!

I'm proud of you A. Now just keep from having those tantrums and you'll be on the road.

We are now back home. I will keep an excellent memory of this business trip and I think that my W will as well. We spent some great quality time together, didn’t discuss the A at all, and we are slowly paving our way back to some level of normalcy. SF was great too. I still faced a number of triggers this week but I was usually able to control them before they did any lasting damage to my mood. Nonetheless, I know that they are always lurking in the background, ready to creep in at any moment. It’s really a mental battle for me to keep them at bay. My W also told me that she senses a lot of sadness in me. She feels that it’s always close to the surface. She is right.

During the trip we had dinner with some old friends. When I was around them I couldn’t help but think about the A, this dirty secret that my W and I share and that nobody else knows about. Would they ever think that we were going through a R? Our friends and relatives would probably never think that such a thing could happen to us. They would probably never think of my W as a ‘cheater’.

It sounds like a terrible thing to say but I sometimes see my W as ‘damaged goods’, and therefore I see my M as ‘damaged goods’. Sometimes I feel that my M is so common now, dirty, almost vulgar. I just thought that we were better than that, that SHE was better than that. It is difficult for me to come to the realization that we are now one of many couples who have experienced an A. It’s not a club that I wanted to be a part of.

Once I heard about the analogy of a ‘hair in the soup’. The A being the hair, the M being the soup. What do we do when there is a hair in our soup? Do we take it out and keep eating (not caring about where the hair came from)? Are we so disgusted by the hair that we push the soup aside right away (D)? Do we keep eating the soup but can’t get the hair out of our mind? Does it depend on the ‘quality’ of the soup? Does it depend on the ‘type’ of hair? Do we keep eating the soup because we are hungry and we think that there is nothing else to eat out there? As for me I have decided to keep eating the soup (stay in the M), I have also decided to find out where the hair came from and do my part to make sure that it doesn’t happen again (personal changes and MC), but I still think about the hair (triggers) and sometimes it makes me gag (sadness, anger, disgust, resentment). Every now and then I will wonder if I should stop eating it (D), I have some ambivalence when it comes to my M and living with my W. Part of me wants to make it work, wants to make her happy, wants to have a fulfilling M with her, and part of me just wants to get out, cut my losses, find someone else, someone who hasn’t betrayed me, someone who will love me more intensely than she does. Sometimes I wonder where this whole thing will end. Sometimes I wonder if I am just staying in this M until I find something better. R is not for the weak.

As you see little Asterix is not out of the woods yet. Still a lot of emotional turmoil but I am winning some battles along the way, this trip was one of them.

Asterix--you are doing GREAT!!

Keep doing what you are doing.

You have come a LONG way since 2/2006. Your feelings are very, very normal. That questioning will fade as time goes on and you continue to be successful in your recovery efforts.

Re: your comments about being w/ friends who don't know what you are going thru...

For the longest time I was totally aware that I was going through an A recovery with my H whenever I was out in public. I felt like I had a huge stamp on my forehead that screamed "HUSBAND HAD AN AFFAIR!". I didn't want to tell people about it, but it was my living breathing existance and I felt like, how can these people not see this huge stamp on my forehead?? It got to where I could not be social for awhile (part of that was a depression I sunk into)

Anyway, congrats on the great weekend, you are really doing so great asterix, just 3 months into recovery.

And you are right...Recovery is definitely not for the weak. Stay strong..
Blessings
Glad

Yes I guess that it could be a lot worse but I don’t feel like I am doing “great”. Actually I think that I am pretty miserable, sad, and quite uncertain about what the future will bring. I try my best to be a good H to my W and a good father to my kids but the thought of the A is constantly in my mind and give a strange taste to everything I do or think. It’s like a big black cloud that just won’t go away. It puts a dark shade on everything, tints everything. Everyday I engage in big mental battles to contain the damage that the triggers could cause, it’s exhausting.

I still check my W’s email system and her cell phone records on a daily basis. While my “logical brain” tells me that the A has been over for a very long time and that there is only a very small probability that she or the OM would break NC, I am still worried that she would still have feelings for him and would seek contact if she could (OM is the one who demanded NC, a few months before D-Day).

Part of me also wonders if the fact of having her first A has completely disgusted her from ever doing this again (“I have learned my lessons, this will never happen again”), or if to the contrary she has discovered something very exciting that maybe some time in the future she will repeat, although this time she wouldn’t tell me so that she wouldn’t have to face the consequences...

Astrerix - I can totally relate to what you say. No matter what you are doing, even if you are doing something fun, the A hangs over it all like a black cloud.

It never totally leaves your mind, does it?

No it never leaves my mind, not a single day since D-Day. And today is bad. I feel so down today. I can’t focus on my work. I keep trying to get my W on the phone, I check her email system, I check her voice mail messages, I aimlessly search the Web for something related to the OM, I read the posts on this site, etc. I am totally consumed by the A today and I can’t seem to get my mind off the topic. For some reason I keep thinking about my W’s relationship with the OM, how she felt after the PA, when she apparently got very upset after he demanded NC, etc – it would be so easy for me to fall back into the vicious circle of questioning but for some reason I seem to have the strength to avoid that. Does she really love me know, is she really in love with me now, is she really over the OM as she says she is, so many questions, so many doubts, so much anxiety. I am so worried about the future of my M, will I be happy in it? Is there really enough ‘good stuff’ left in it to make up for the A? I have so much ambivalence. At times I feel like I love her so much, at other times I just want to hurt her (not physically) and find someone else to share the rest of my life with.

I do all those things and think all those things too - pretty much all the time.

I think the uncertainty may be the worst thing about all of this and I think uncertainty is what makes me do and think like I do.

I am not sure the uncertainty will ever go away.

I find myself thinking the same thing, particularly as she hid her A so well from me that I only discovered what was going on when she told me.

As for me it was a little different. I think that I was always suspicious, even before the PA actually took place. Some kind of subconscious warning system going off, I guess. When you have known someone for a long time, you know when something is different. However the trust that I had in her, probably mixed with some denial, kept me from digging deeper.

After the PA (but before D-Day) I kept sensing that something wasn’t quite right. She was obviously depressed but she would blame it on our recent move away from friends, family, and a familiar work environment, compounded by the challenges of a new job. At the time I was also traveling heavily and I theorized that my absence was to blame as well. Still I felt that she was showing a complete lack of interest in me and I remained suspicious that there was more to the depression than what she was telling me. It is at that time that I started checking her cell phone records and voice mail. I would see a heavy call volume with the OM but she would always tell me that it was to discuss ‘cases’ and other work-related matters. In a way I believe that she wasn’t lying about that since, after the PA, they never discussed what happened or even had a single “romantic” conversation. Still I believe that those long ‘work-related’ chats they would have were still a way for her to keep in touch with him, and maintain the “friendship” through which everything started.

I confronted her number of times about those suspicions but she always denied any wrongdoing. I remember once telling her “With your words you deny, but with your behavior you confess”. It went on for months like this until that dreadful D-Day where after being confronted one last time, she finally confessed. She then told me that she had been trying to build the courage to admit the A, obviously procrastinating as she feared the consequences of what she had done – she was supposedly convinced that I would put an and to our M if I knew. She would tell herself “after the holidays” so that she could have another ‘normal’ Xmas with the family. Still to this day I wonder if she would have told me the truth on her own, if I hadn’t confronted her about my suspicions so many times. I also wonder if she would have told me the truth if the OM hadn’t demanded NC a few months prior to D-Day. I guess that I will never know for sure. At the end of the day, it is her own admission that proved the A. I didn’t have any proof like catching her in the act, letters, emails, photographs, admission of the OM (actually his plan was to take this secret to his grave), or anything like that. So it would have been very easy for her to keep denying the A, provided that she could have continued living with the guilt and the continuous lies.

At this time I believe her when she says that she has learned her lessons and will never do this to me or us ever again. In a way I think that anyone would say that in the aftermath of an A. The trauma is still so fresh. But in the longer term, when a few years have passed, I wonder if she will still feel the same way. Will she be able to ‘resist temptation’ if it comes knocking? I believe that it is an uncertainty with which I will have to live for the rest of my life. This being said, sometimes an equally important question that I ask myself is: will “I” be able to resist temptation if it comes knocking? Will her A teach me a lesson as well or will I see having my own A as sweet revenge?

In my case, I guess in hindsight I can look at some of her behaviour during the A and say yes, there were signs, but I chose to ignore them. And ignore them I did because I trusted her so much and NEVER expected that she'd risk so much and choose to get involved in an A with a co-worker. As expected, the results have been devastating to her as well as to me. She had to eventually give up a job where she was quite respected by her peers (who don't know about the A - I did not expose it to them).



That's almost exactly the same questions that I ask myself these days. Except that I wouldn't see my A as "revenge" per se. If I meet someone that truly catches my fancy and I catch theirs, I think that I might be tempted to find out if a relationship with them might be more fulfilling than the one that I'm currently in. Perhaps a fresh start without all the baggage that an A brings to an M.

I know where both of you are coming from. Not sure I really want someone else right now, but it would be more tempting than it would have.

About the only thing I did differently was I started snooping hard as soon as I got real suspicious. I'll always believe that my W would have had PA too if I hadn't gotten real lucky in my snooping very early. Of course, it could still happen. I think it's over and I think I have NC, but are you ever really sure.

I think it was actually divine intervention in my case that made me snoop (sort of joking, but not totally). W didn't act suspicious or different at all and I am not normally like that. Everything sort of fell into place to at least disrupt it before PA could happen. Otherwise, I know it would have.

I have really felt crappy these last couple of days – it seems that I haven’t been able to put the A out of my mind at all – I am constantly thinking about it – rehashing some of the events, and thinking about my relationship with my W today (more specifically the parts that I am not satisfied with). Obviously it’s affecting my mood, probably my body language, and most definitely my outlook on the future. I am still trying to push those negative thoughts away but I am not always able to do so.

We had another MC session last night but I am wondering if we are not spinning our wheels there also. It seems that we are talking about everything except the A itself, while I know that the A is constantly in the background, at least I know that it’s true for me. Yesterday the bottom line conclusion of the MC was that we needed to improve communications (I guess that it couldn’t hurt but I have to admit that it wasn’t a big revelation for me). According to him we have a hard time discussing the ‘tough topics’ and we prefer to ignore them. He wants to help us communicate better. However he says that open communications in those types of sessions can either go well or go bad, time will tell. At one point my W was also trying to make the point that “we” were still stuck, that the A was still omnipresent in our relationship today and that for instance I was constantly thinking about it. To that the MC says that we should stop talking about the “we” when it relates to the A. Instead we should focus on our own personal story with the A, where we are as individuals today as it relates to the A, and one should be able to move forward even if the other is still stuck on the A. The MC also had the feeling that my W herself was still stuck on the A, she is the one who brought it up during the MC session. I guess that it’s hard not to when the A is this big elephant sitting in the room with us. I just don’t know where all this will take us. This whole A is such a big slap across the face for me, it’s hard to move on.

There is something a little different this week. I guess that it could only be temporary but it is definitely a new feeling. I have absolutely no desire for SF “with my wife”. I am nice to her, I try to be civil, I am even somewhat affectionate (hugs, holding hand, etc.) but I am absolutely not interested in SF “with her”. I emphasize the “with her” because I do indeed have desire for SF but for some reason I am turned off by my W right now. In the five nights since we have been back from our trip, I haven’t tried to have SF with her a single time (note that she hasn’t initiated anything either). Last week she commented “every time you lay down next to me you want to have SF” – I guess that she can’t say that this week. I don’t know what the root cause of this feeling is but I do recognize some of the ingredients:
• First SF with my W is “ok” but not that great. She is no longer very passionate during SF (no kissing, no passion, etc.) nor adventurous (always same old same old). I would rate our SF as ‘meat and potato’, while I am looking for ‘exotic and spicy’. So, simply put, I am bored with it.
• I am also thinking about the A of course. I sometimes feel disgusted by her body and her presence. I see her as ‘dirty’, damaged goods.
• I guess that I am overcoming some of the feelings of insecurity that I had after D-Day. I know feel more self-confident and I tell myself that she is actually lucky to have me. I am a great guy and I have a lot to offer. I am maybe therefore less tempted to find reassurance in SF with her.
• We had a fair amount of SF last week during our trip so one could think that the SF appetite may be lessened this week. One could also think that we are recovering from the long trip and jet-lag. But for some reason I think that the three other bullets above are much more significant.
I remember reading something about a phase of R when the BS looses SF interest. I don’t know if this is going to last for me but I wonder if there is indeed a phase of R where such feelings are common.

Hi Asterix.

I don't know if it's part of any process of the recovery.

But I also feel a bit like you... but on a very different level. We had a hot-intimacy SF relationship, but that was based on FULL trust. Now SF is kind of disgusting, but I am only 4 months past d-day.

As for your situation... I guess you are putting so much effort into having SF that... maybe, with all the feelings of the A, maybe you're just like... well so much effort for what? Right? YOu have SF but it's not fulfiling. And you are still far from a really fullfiling SF.

Or you're just somewhat testing her...
Have hope and strengh. Let it be for now?

See how she reacts/ notice it, and when she brings it up... just be TOTAL honest.

From there, you'll have to get her some books on the subject. There's plenty.

Maybe she'll see SF with a different shadow, speccialy if she fears really loosing you.

She needs to understand S is about LOVE.

On the meanwhile, get all the info you can to help in your situation.

Hey Asterix, I went through very similar feelings towards SF. Right after d-day it was passionate and reckless. Then it was intense and intimate. Then I felt turned off for a while. Then it was just normal. Then the whole thing kind of repeated itself. I guess the emotional roller-coaster applies to SF too. I also went through periods of wanting SF, but not with my W. I think you'll find that your feelings will stabilize. Hang in there. Use this time to focus on other areas of intimacy and communication.

I feel the same way right now Asterix - and I don't know why either. Usually I have a very high sex drive (too high), but I have little or no desire for W. It's weird. And we haven't had SF in a couple of weeks, so it's not it's because we just had a week like you....

LostWillow – You are right, something I wonder why I make all these efforts to have SF when in most cases it actually ends up being a somewhat unfulfilling experience (even if fulfilling ‘physically’, the ‘mental’ side is usually frustrated). I don’t think that I am testing my W per se, as you suggest, because I am just not interested in SF right now. However I am indeed curious to know if she noticed and if so what she is going to do about it. If behavior predicts, she will not really do anything about it, and actually I will venture to say that she probably appreciates the lack of ‘pressure’. I will never win at the waiting game with her. If she brings it up I don’t know if I can be totally honest. I don’t think that I could tell her that she disgusts me or that I sometimes see her as ‘damaged goods’, this radical honesty would be way too hurtful.

You talk about getting books on the subject. What subject are you referring to? SF, R, M, which one?

The problem is that this lack of desire for SF is accompanied by a general lack of interest in my W and some distancing. It makes focusing on intimacy and communication difficult as at this time I really don’t want much to do with her. Last night, while we were in the car, I could smell her perfume and it was making me sick. When I lie in bed next to her I can feel the anger and anxiety building in me. Sometimes just being around her frustrates me and saddens me. I am considering sleeping in the guest bedroom to avoid some of those negative feelings. What surprises me is that last week I wanted to be close and intimate with her. This week, for no apparent reasons, I am at the other end of the spectrum. All of this also comes with what seems like a depression. I was on the phone with my W a few minutes ago and she told me that I sounded "really down".

193296 - It's interesting that you're going through the same thing right now since not too long ago we were discussing the high S drive. Are you no longer following the 'schedule'?

The low S drive is also being affected probably by the AD's. But not only that, WE ARE EMOTIONALLY tired of all this. We spending all our energy, when things calm a bit we just go down.

I beleive I already read somewhere about the "anger" stage appearing at different times with different intensities.

Then, I beleive right after d-day and until somewhere in the development of the situation, we tend to "fight" for our spouses... then depending on them or how it goes, and after or with the 'anger" stage we kind of realize - "Why the h##l am I doing here if He/she did something so horrible, etc, we begin to feel disapointed with them...

Guess that's why the Experts here keep saying, Recovery depends a lot on the BS.

If we want R, we need to fight for the final goal and put all this aside, as much as we can. (I am there, I know how hard it is)

Asterix, on your situation, I understand what you mean by the waiting for her to come... but believe it... when she will notice you're not in to it... she will wander.(How long? a month? few weeks? don't know)

You don't need to tell her how you feel that way... you just need to tell her you're not feeling like it. It's hard for you after all that happened, something soft, she knows you, she will get it.

I hope there will be a time (maybe not so soon) where she will WANT to satisfy you.

The books I talk about are specific about S between a couple, most like "how to keep intimacy S hot while parenting yourng kids, stuff like that.

Check that web page I told you before. They are from Doctor's, psycologits, etc. www.women.com

Many written for women in this kind of situation.

I'll try to searh for some tittles and get back to you.

BE patient and hope for a good future. Unfortunately it's in the hurt BS hand to make most of the work... or at least initiate it.

Dont get distant from her, she will beleive it's a continuation of the SF issue and will make it worst.

I do indeed feel that R depends a lot on the BS. The problem is that sometimes I still wonder what I really want. Some days I am convinced that I want R, I look at the A in the greater context on my M and I tell myself that I shouldn’t let this one-time A ruin everything – this “thinking mode” affects my behavior in a positive way: I am nicer to my W, more affectionate, more positive about the future. Other days I am overwhelmed by the A and I tell myself that my M is doomed – this other “thinking mode” affects me in a negative way: I am more distant, more abrasive, and usually more verbally aggressive (snide remarks, etc). In this negative mode I often tell myself that I should keep an eye out for another mate and just stay with my W until I find someone better. Triggers or the slightest negative change in my W’s behavior, tone, or body language can make me go from positive mode to negative mode. On the other hand if my W is affectionate or if I sense a deep remorse then I can go from negative to positive. This being said those constant changes are emotionally taxing for me. They are difficult for my W as well as she obviously experiences all the side effects. I wonder what it will take for me to really “make up my mind” and stick to my decision: stay in M or leave. Is it normal to still be hesitant like this more than three months post D-Day? How does one make up their mind? Should I just wait and see, will the decision come to me, is there a way to rationalize one decision or the other?

Hey, I feel that hesitancy now, and it's been just over a year since D-Day. Three months - you're just started on the recovery journey. After a few really good days between us, today I find myself leaning once again towards separation, because of something that happened between my FWW and I last night.

I've made myself a promise - if I go a whole month thinking that separation is the best option for both of us, I will propose it to my FWW. I'm not going to propose it while my feelings are going back and forth like this.

ManInMotion – what about your W? Is she also going back and forth between R and separation or is she fully committed to R? In your case I wonder what it means to still hesitate between R and separation one year post D-Day. Is it because you’ve never forgiven her for what happened? Is it because you haven’t been able to come to “accept” the A? Or is it perfectly normal to sit on the fence for that long? In a way I wonder if this sitting on the fence is compatible with R. How can we make the efforts to recover, change, and meet our W’s EN’s when our commitment to R is so unstable, and going through so many ups and downs? How can we live with our W when her ‘credit in our love bank’ is so limited that at the first misstep she goes in the red and we immediately think about separation? How can she even expect to be happy in an environment where her mistake is never forgiven and much less forgotten? Those questions are as much for you as they are for me. I am just concerned that 9 months from now I will still be emotionally at the same place, still hesitant about my life, and possibly wasting some precious moments.

She tells me that she's committed to R, though she has wavered from time to time. However, her definition of "committed" is apparently quite different to mine.



None of the above. If anything, it's because I get the feeling that I'll never be "good enough" for my FWW. Her two As and her reactions towards me in our attempts at R are reinforcing this feeling for me.




All normal after only three months, I think. Now, one year after D-Day, I think a lot less about the A, and a lot more about how we feel about each other NOW. I'm failing to fill her LB, and she's failing to fill mine - perhaps we really were not meant to be together.



You will eventually forgive her if she earns that forgiveness. And while you may not forget, eventually there will be a lot less emotional attachment to the memories. Think of your last bad accident. You can remember it, but it's quite likely you don't feel the hurt again. Same thing here.



I had the same concerns, btw. How about talking it over with your FWW to see what steps you can take to ensure that you're not in the same place, 9 months from now?

Asterix, I guess, or am I just realizing that that's where our strenght has to focus.

We, BS, have to work on a goal agreed with the S, we have to think about the future, and stick to it no matter what.

When the dark days or the hurt surfaces we have to be srtong enough to overcome it. We have to turn on to positive thinking. We can't let doubt about the future of a happy M drag us down.

Mostly we can't fear Recovery, we can't wander it it will be worthed. We have to fully dadicate to R.

Make it a rational decision, a hard project you have to acomplish no matter what.

The A has taken its toll on our professional lives as well. As for me it has really been a struggle to concentrate on my work since D-Day. I have spent more time visiting sites like this one, snooping into my W’s voice mail and email system, and thinking about the A overall, than I have spent on my actual work. I have been very worried about that, worried about the perception of my boss, and even worried that I could eventually lose my job over this. The last couple of weeks have been a bit better though, I have found a project that I could really sink my teeth in and it’s enabling me to have a few productive hours during the day. But it’s still a struggle.

As for my W, it hasn’t been a walk in the park either. Yesterday one of her supervisors commented that she wasn’t “aggressive” enough and that it was hurting her performance. She has been very worried about that comment. This morning she was telling me that she has been consumed by the A since she started her new job (the PA took place a week before she started the new job). The constant feelings of guilt, shame, worthlessness, and thoughts that I would leave her once I found out took their tool on her performance and her ability to concentrate. Since D-Day it has been compounded by a lot of turmoil at home. I have also been contacting her during business hours quite a bit, either calling her on the phone sharing my concerns, talking about my pain, my anxieties, my fears. In the first few weeks after D-Day, I would even call you to question her about the A or yell at her. I have also sent her emails, etc. Those calls have been very distracting to her as well. At times she would cry on the phone (while at work) and obviously it has been difficult for her to pick herself up after that and ‘perform’. At first I have to admit that I considered that it was the price that she had to pay for what she did to me, what she did to us. Obviously I felt that my professional performance was affected and therefore I considered that the collateral damage that it was causing to hers was perfectly normal. She was the one who created this situation and therefore she should expect some consequences. Now I am starting to feel different about this. I have actually told her that I would no longer call her at work to discuss my ‘moods’. It’s just way too distracting for her and if her professional performance is affected, it will affect the whole family, not just her.

Hello Asterix,

I am facing the same problems, and I am also at risk of loosing my job.
My H doing much better at work, but he could be better.

Guess as we move into Recovery we realize how hard it is... not only we have to deal with the mess in the M but we have to deal with everything else affected by the A.

I really wander if any WS have ever even though about the big MESS an A can create. I wander if they would ever had done it.

I feel happy you two discussed it and are supporting each other on this.

As I am slowly approaching D-Day + 4 months, I wanted to provide a little update on my situation. I guess that overall I am feeling a bit better. My W and I are actually getting along better now than we have in a long time (she says so herself). If anything, I visit this site much less often than before. I am able to concentrate on my job a bit better too and I feel less ‘obsessed’ about the A or about snooping on my W. I still check her email system every now and then but I think that now it’s more out of curiosity than anything else. I finally believe that the A is over (as well as her ‘feelings’ for the OM) – and therefore there is less motivation for me to check on her all the time, thinking that I would catch her red-handed in a communication with the OM. This being said, part of me is still hyper vigilant and it doesn’t take much for me to worry when I don’t know where she is or if I see her chatting with male friends of ours. A minimal amount of trust has been reestablished; enough for me to go through my day without an unbearable level of anxiety, but obviously not enough to completely let my guard down. But overall there has been a noticeable improvement.

I think that my W feels more comfortable around me as well. My moods have been more stable. I have also been nicer and more affectionate with her, and I probably seem a bit happier as well. On the SF front things seem to go a bit better as well. This weekend she initiated SF twice. During the week I initiated once, was turned down, but I took it well and didn’t make a big deal out of it (that’s an improvement!). I have also been less anxious at night when we get to bed, I haven’t started any big discussions on my mental state or emotions related to the A and I think that overall it has helped us relax. We will often fall asleep cuddling or holding hands, that’s nice.

I also feel much less compelled to call her at work during the day to talk about my emotions or feelings. Actually I can now go entire days without calling her, and if I do it is to chit-chat but not to discuss anything related to the A. I am sure that this change has also been great for her as well.

So overall things are better for me now but I am not out of the woods yet. The A still invades my day and my mind from time to time, a lot more often than I would like. Those thoughts are not as debilitating as they used to be but they are still very painful. Triggers are still present, a bit less sensitive than before, but they are still fairly potent.

So four months post D-Day, this is my report. I am taking it one day at a time, I still don’t know how things will work out in the long run but I am able to function, and “normalcy” (if there is such a thing) is slowly finding its way back into my life.

Glad to hear you feel some normalcy back into your life.

I came across this thread and though you and maybe your W would like to read it.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3035161

Yo asterix haven't heard from you in a while. How's it going, mate?