I guess I’ll start like everyone, sad to be here, but happy to find you!

My story ... or as much as I can manage now.
My WH received am e-mail from his parents that were away, I’m a slow reader, so he left me to finish reading the e-mail. After which I started snooping in his e-mail. I do occasionally after his previous slipups. I had the urge to do so because he had changed his password, he had given me the new one, but I hadn’t really followed through with checking. When he changed it, I asked "what do you have to hide" - he´s had a cycle of 2 or 3 passwords for 15 years!

I scrolled through his inbox, and saw an e-mail with no subject from OW (we all work at the same place, I know her, she has been in my home). I open it, and without being able to see the words or fully comprehend what it says, I call for my husband to come talk to me.

His face is stunned, and I ask him "is something going on", he pretends not to understand and I tell him, "tell me now!" and he begins to confess, first trying to hide her identity, saying that he has fallen for another woman, I keep my cool, I was so cool (proud of myself), just asked questions, the questions he did not want to answer, I just repeat "tell me now" and he did. Most of what he said I have later found to be true, details came as I thought to ask of them.

I moved out, I couldn’t handle being around him and needing him, and having the kids around. He stayed home and took care of everything. I came home for dinner and left late in the evening to keep things normal for the kids. We told our two older that we were having problems, and our oldest that I was staying elsewhere. It´s strange how close I felt to him in the first week, we needed each other so much in our pain and devastation.

I am very grateful to him for taking care of the home and kids, I was not functional, I lay on the floor, I crawled, I cried, I really don´t konw myself like that. I also pampered myself, did my nails and stuff. Just being able to be by myself for some time was really good for me. I moved home on Feb 14, my V-day gift.

I´ll add details of the A, I just wanted to get started.

I have been reading and learning, I really do hope for R, but not sure WH has the presence of mind to stick to it ...

NotSure,
Sorry you are here but glad you came to the right place. If you continue reading the articles here you will discover that it is notrecommended the BS move out upon discovery and exposure. Have you started exposing the A? How many previous WW slip ups and how did you handle it? It's a little slow here on the weekends. You'll probably see more responses tommorrow.

GG

Welcome to marriagebuilders. Yes, please add more details, like if they still work together, is he willing to write a no contact letter, is she married, etc.

By the way, please tell your two oldest the truth.

Thank you Ggirl for your reply, I actually kind of like starting slow, to ease myself into this.
I now know moving out is not recommended, didn’t know then. But I think it was right for me. I was actually only out of the house from late at night to early morning, I just slept elsewhere, but spent all day with WH talking, crying, and talking some more.

I have stated exposing, but gently. My best friend, my mother, his mother, his sister and a few others. I have a hard time with full exposure, I’m thinking about it ...

WH has on three occasions kissed and made out with other women, he was drunk. The first time, we dealt with it on our own, and moved past it. We were at a party and WH went missing, I was desperately looking for him, not knowing what I would find - each door I opened. He turned up, and admitted the next day.
Second time he didn’t admit until after the third.
The third time he went out after a late meeting into the evening. Snuck home and out again, I felt like putting in my rollers and getting out a rolling pin and standing on the doorstep - I made me feel crazy - pacing and waiting, he didn’t answer his phone. He admitted the next day, it was really rough, we went to one counseling session, and he stopped drinking, thinking that was it. In both 1 and 3 he spoke to the OW, apologied to them, said he had no desire to pursue it further and wanted to be with me. Which finds me here

NotSure, does he still work with the OW every day? Is she married and does her husband know?

I am confused about why you have left your home? What is the point of doing this?

Thanks Believer
OW has/had a boyfriend, is divorced and has a daughter (9). We all still work at the same place, but my husband and I are both on leave and moved away 2 weeks ago and will be away for 6 months. When I confronted OW she said she had broken up with BF the previous weekend, WH thought they were broken up during the A.

I sent OW an e-mail on Dday, telling her that I knew, and could she give us space to sort things out. I also sent an sms from his phone, wanting to see what kind of reply she would send- none. I confronted OW 3 days later, was very cool, detached. Knowing that we would run into one and other at work, I wanted to see her and talk to her on MY terms. I told her that WH had betrayed me, I can’t really remember the rest. I didn’t really have much to say to her, but just wanted to see her, and get it over with on my terms. She wanted to talk, was upset and cried a little, said that she had moral obligations to me as much as anyone and offered to negotiate about attendance at work events. I told her that she was not a part of my life and I would not negotiate with her about anything.

A few days later OW sent WH an e-mail, wanting to know if he was OK, when he didn’t respond OW sent an sms saying how hard it was not to hear from WH. WH sent an e-mail (edited by me) that he wanted no contact, no e-mails and no sms. His original letter was a sappy country-song version, “you have to try to forget me blablabla” but mine was all business, Do not contact me, no e-mail, no sms.


I have a very hard time telling my children, I don’t see how hurting them will help things? I know WH did this to them too, but shaming him in the eyes of his children??? A close friend only knew about his fathers A´s after he was grown up, and is very happy to have been given a childhood of not knowing. How does it affect young men, that the man they model them selves on did such a thing? Don’t they deserve to have a positive image of their father? Feel free to try to convince me, but not just with slogans (children can cope with the truth, not lies ... heard it already)

Some advice I will take, other I will think about, and some may just not be right for me.

Is there any chance that you or your WH will be exposed to this OW in the future? Do you continue to work at the same company? Because if there is any chance your H will be around her again, you can rest assured he will triggered all over again and you will go right back to D-Day.

I suspect she NEVER broke up with her BF and he knows nothing about this. Can you contact him and let him know?

Also, kids are not made happy by lies and illusions about their parents. It is the AFFAIR that hurts kids, not the truth. Your H is SUPPOSED to be ashamed of his behavior. If he is not, then there is something wrong.

With that kind of track record, it might be a good idea to tell your children because I predict there will be more of the same. Its highly possible he has also introduced them to some of these skanks. Not telling them leaves them vulnerable to his immoral teachings.

My father was also a serial cheater and I deeply resent my mothers lies to us about who he was. The lies and the illusions did not make me "happy" they kept me profoundly morally confused, because this sick, corrupt man was teaching me that wrong was right.

This is why Dr. Harley is a staunch advocate of telling the truth to children.

Thank you MelodyLane.

WH went to occasional meetings at work after Dday, then we moved. I don’t think her BF knows of the A. I have been digging to find BF and how to contact him.

I left my home because I couldn’t cope, I couldn’t sit upright, let alone take care of my family, I collapsed on a regular basis on the floor crying uncontrollably, my kids don’t need to see that, and I felt I needed the space to express my sorrow, anger and desperation without having to consider my children. It worked for me.

“Is there any chance that you or your WH will be exposed to this OW in the future? Do you continue to work at the same company? Because if there is any chance your H will be around her again, you can rest assured he will triggered all over again and you will go right back to D-Day.”

Yes, yes and I know, that’s why we are discussing how to deal with this when we go back home. He has suggested quitting, but I don’t feel it is a genuine offer, he would resent me if I said OK. It’s a bridge 6 months in the future thankfully.

“Also, kids are not made happy by lies and illusions about their parents. It is the AFFAIR that hurts kids, not the truth. Your H is SUPPOSED to be ashamed of his behavior. If he is not, then there is something wrong.“

WH is very ashamed, and rightfully so, but to be honest I am on the fence about telling the kids. It’s not all black and white, I know he did this and was wrong to, but that does not say that he is wrong in all his morals, and that he can not be a good father. He shocked himself by doing this. I am a Social Worker, so I am not unfamiliar with therapeutic concepts and methods, and I don’t believe shame to be a good motivator for personal change.

“Its highly possible he has also introduced them to some of these skanks.”
OW was in my home, we had a group from work come and she brought her daughter. My youngest has met her at work as well. The slipups as we call them, were one nighters and I am positive they did not meet my children.

I agree with a lot of what is said here, and value your opinions and experience, and see that different things work for different people.

You should not even CONSIDER going back with him unless he does leave because future contact will make recovery IMPOSSIBLE. All avenues should be shut down NOW. Why leave yourself this mess for the future, Notsure? And he should be the one to do it. He had better not resent you for that, Notsure, because you won't have a marriage if he doesn't leave that job. I would get this settled NOW while you remember why that has to be done. Scr*w his potential resentment, this should be a BOUNDARY ISSUE for you.

You owe to yourself and your KIDS to make sure this happens. Your mental health and the security of your childrens family supercedes his potential childish resentment over having to take steps to protect you. When he is recovered, if that ever really happens, he will not resent doing what it takes to protect his marriage. Resentment is the attribute of the wayward, not of the recovered.


Shame is our conscience's warning sign that we have violated our morals. Shame is a GOOD THING and if he does not feel shame he is probably a psychopath. Not a good thing. I find it disturbing you feel its healthy to lie to children about what is going in their own lives, but this is entirely your decision. I think you have bigger fish to fry right now and I don't see any sense in beating this to death. Just know that Dr Harley does not advocate lying to children.

Sorry you are here.

People who cheat are not good parents. How does a person with bad morals regarding M teach their children good morals? They can't because they don't see them themselves.
I agree they can teach to not steal or use cuss words, but they are unable to teach protection and genuine thoughtfulness of others because that is what they are lacking.

When I first read about telling children, I thought that was nuts. I also thought exposure was nuts. I was so wrong. I couldn't put it all together.

After a few days of not knowing why our family seemed to be on such shaky ground, their voiced fears came out. Not knowing caused fear.

My kids are older, but not by that much. They saw me the same way as you described yourself, devastated. I told them what was going on. This lack of protection and thoughtlessness was also being done to them. They had a right to know, as they were a part of this family.

My kids have seen first hand how adultery destroys a family unit. This has devastated them too. Their fear turned to anger and hurt. These are appropriate feelings for this situation.

They have had their own conversations with their father which they have a right to.
WH needed to be accountable to them and feel their shame. This is one of the consequences of his selfish actions.

They have also, now, said that their values have changed for the better since they see what impact adultery truly has.

The motivator for my kids wasn't shame, it was destruction and hurt.

sorry to beat the horse, I was typing at the same time as Mel with 'telling the kids'

NotsoSure,
You and I have had similar experiences with WHs, except my H met OW at gym, not work. There was a time where my H spent time with OW a weekend I was away and another time where he sneaked out of the House and went out to be with buddies at bar - don't know if anything happened with women at bar. If your WH follows my H's pattern then a EA or PA is next to follow, you can be sure of it. I allowed him to manipulate me thinking things would change (after the sneaking out incident). The EA (never could confirm PA) followed a couple of years later. It took IC for my H to understand his behavior and it had nothing to do with me - it was stuff from his upbringing that he needed to deal with. He had a chip on his shoulder for many years and thank God that chip is gone. MC and the tools here helped us improve our M. We're in second year of R. My kids knew what was going on and it wasn't me who said anything. My H told them he was going through something and needed to work it out. They knew when we started MC and I don't regret them knowing because I think we modeled good behavior when there are problems in our M.

GG

I can tell you how it affected one young man I know. My friend married a man who turned out to be a serial cheater. She was in turmoil for years... never did leave him... but he finally left her for one of his other women. They had four children, the oldest a boy. By the time they divorced he was 17 years old. It was not until after they had split up that she learned of the pain her boy had been carrying with him since the age of 7. That is how old he was the day he walked into the bathroom and found his dad taking a bath with the babysitter. He kept the secret. He learned to lie for his dad. He took on the responsibility of "protecting" the adults in the house from emotional upset. He felt that he held the power to keep his family together or destroy it. He was scared. He felt isolated. He used drugs to treat his pain. Not exactly a carefree childhood... no matter how many fishing trips he and dad spent laughing.

Had my friend been willing to talk about the truth with all of her children, maybe her son wouldn't have had to carry that burden on his little shoulders. Maybe he would have felt it was safe to talk about the truth with mom. Perhaps her girls would have healthy relationships with men today instead of picking boyfriends that act just like dad.

Children sense emotions adults don't think they sense. They see things adults don't think they see. They hear things adults don't think they hear. What if one of your children thinks they are protecting YOU from the truth? What if they know exactly what their daddy is and walk alone with a secret? What if they know exactly how their daddy acts, and your silence is seen as approval to act the same way, or accept the same treatment, when they grow up?

Children may need help processing the truth, but they don't need to be protected from it. You likely see it every day in your line of work. It's lies and secrets, not truth and openness, that make our children the most vulnerable to pain.

Thank you all for your input,
From what I have read on MB, they say that we are all vulnerable to having an affair, that it is human nature if our needs are not being met in our relationship, and someone else offers to do so, then presto => you find your self in an affair. I have a hard time buying that, but I really can´t be 100% sure. So I don´t think I can afford to put my self on the high moral standing that I´m the good one, and WH is the bad guy, we dealt with the situation each in our own ways, neither of which was very productive, and his way MUCH more hurtful than mine. I´m trying to own up to my part in the problems we were having, while not admitting to having anything to do with his A. I haven´t been able to get on the forum for about a week and thought I was going to loose it!! I missed reading and reflecting and learing.

OK, here come the details of the A, it almost seems like trickle truth here on my part, but I haven´t been able to get onto the forum in a while!!

My WH now understands that the begining of the A is in the spring of 08, they shared group events with others at work, and then had a private lunch by chance he says (I thing OW may have organized it as she had a crush on him at least since the previous Christmas). So they start sharing private conversations, their hopes and dreams, blablabla ... OW talks to WH about the death of her best friend that passed away around that time, and shortly after her mother dies. WH is very supportive, more so than he had been to an other workfriend whos boyfirend died the previous year. Through the summer and fall their friendship develops, and at a Hallween party with his work group OW tells WH that if they were not both in relationships, she would want to be with him. WH doesn´t say anything to discourage her, nor mention it to me. WH realises he is developing a crush - again, doesn´t say anything or do anything to prevent it. So a month later I am away for work, and the office Chrismasparty they sit together (OW planned that) and afterwards WH drives some people home, OW last. OW invites WH up for coffee at 4 AM, he says yes, they make out some, but he then leaves. Quite unusually for me, I am away again two weeks later, the very night I leave, he goes to her house, sleeps with her, no protection! There after they have secret meetings at her home, use protection, skip work, or "work from home". They tried to break it off at one point, but sent e-mails and texts about how hard it was and how much they missed each other. 4 days before Dday, I came to his office, with only good intentions trying to connect, wanted to see WH ... he´s not in his office, I look for a post-it to leave him a note, and find a book of love-poems in his desk. I go to the coffee area at work, WH is there with other people, I feel like I walked in on them on a double date (OW was not there), WH acts really strangely, tries to usher me out ASAP. We sit at an other table, and OW arrives shortly, he had been expceting her. The next day they have one of their secret meetings, and WH says they break it off, and discuss that there must be NC. Two days later I find an e-mail and all come out. So there are the highlights of the A, I tried not to be too long winded with details. Feel free to ask away, and I hope my internet connection holds up to answer

The boards were down, it wasn't your connection.

Are you still living away from the marital home?

I didn´t really move out, I actually spent more time at home and with my WH as we didn´t get to work really at all the first week or so. I slept elsewhere, and came home in the morning, WH and I talked and cried together most of the day, then we greeted the kid´s home from school, did dinner, homework and all that. I didn´t leave in the evening till after the kids bedtime. WH and I spent a lot of time together those first few days, it really made us closer, sharing our agony. I started sleeping home at night after about a week. The time alone really did me good, I rediscovered my need for solitude, a need I had neglected since having kids, and something that I plan to make sure I have from now on. I haven´t been very good at taking care of myself. It worked for me to be away for those first few nights.

Since then we have moved away. We moved away about 5 weeks after Dday. It´s a temporary move for us, we´ve had our ups and downs. We get to be away from our day to day lives, heal and reconnect. But I do worry that we will slip into our old ways when we go back home. I´ll have some down days when I feel WH choses to forget about the turmoil, I guess I want him to be more proactive and reflective about the situation. I wonder if he is capable of that ...

So tell me if I´m crazy, or is this advisable.
I desperately want to get into OW´s e-mail and Facebook. WH deleted all his e-mails to and from OW (except for the 2 or 3 I found), so I can´t check and see what went on. I can hardly contain myself, because I really want to see them. I´ve heard some people have hacked into e-mail and facebook, even mobile records. Is it hard? Then again I such a chicken, I´m not sure I´d dare ... it makes me feel like this crazy person that I truly do not believe I am.

I'm feeling blue ...

The EN that my WH says I wasn't meeting was for casual physical closeness, kissing and touching during the day, and for me to show more iniciative and willingness sexually. LB- that I am too controlling and put him down.
I am working on that, especially the LB, because I know it to be true. I know that I am more like that when I'm stressed. As for the EN, in my opinion that was a temporary situation, I wasn't feeling an emotional connection, and I was wanting him to meet my needs more sexually, put in the time/effort so that I was arroused. So we were caught in a cycle. Thoughout our marriage I have been sexually adventurous and he has been very happy with that - or so I thought.

So after Dday, I have been making an effort in those areas, talked about his sexual needs and I have been meeting them. He wanted me to be more submissive and responsive, partcipate in certain acts, I feel I have done what he asked of me. I have been working on the LB. The hardest part for me is that I have a strong need to communicate, so if I am unhappy about something I want to talk about it. If I'm feeling frustrated, I want to talk about it. Should I bite my toung and just do everything he asks of me without asking for him to reciprocate? I'm trying to get my head around plan A. But also feel that he is the one that should be making up with me, he's the one that drained my "love bank" and he needs to make me love him though his actions .... not sure there really is a question here, just rambling ...

NsS,
Have you both filled out the EN questionnaire? Is he working with using the concepts here or are you doing all the work? Don't forget you have needs too - he needs to want to work on that - it's not all about meeting his needs and you feeling guilty about your part in the M. But this typically - I blamed myself after DD - I don't do that anymore. I didn't choose to cheat, he did. Let your WH know your need to communicate. It's okay for you tell him you need him to listen and that he doesn't have to put on the Mr. Fixit hat - just listen. As for trying to contact OW - you will get opposing opinions on this. I contacted OW via cell phone and it accomplished nothing but gave her power over how I was feeling. It was a total waste of my time because - can you truly believe what the OP will tell you? I put my efforts and focus on M and R. That is your best weapon against OW.

GG

GG

GG,
The "funny" thing is we/I looked at the EN questionair in ´06, when WH slipped up, but didn´t follow through with it. I guess we both thought that since he stopped drinkiing it was not a problem. We looked at the ENQ again now, I asked him to fill it out and discuss with me, to commit to the 15 hrs, but he hasn´t really. I guess he doesn´t feel the need for structue in R. I desperately need structure, and a path and tasks so that I can feel like we are working on this, not just hoping for it to pass.

We talked about the EN, and I talked about mine, without formally filling in the Q. I am and have been very clear on my needs ... he feels like my need to talk doesn´t really resolve anything ... guess he has the "fix-it" hat on

That really brings me back to my main concern, does he have the presence of mind to really work on things? He would rather just cruse through life with out activly engaging ... but he was fully engaging and active in the A!!!!

This is something that I have complained to him about, that he really did the "give and take" game well with OW, took the small hints and acted on them, which he doesn´t do with me. So I give bigger hints, then he feels like I´m pushing him in a direction ... I can´t win. I feel so typical, a wife taken for granted.

NsS,
The thing about the concepts here is that there is an order to them and there is a reason for that order. Go the link and read what it says because without a plan your relationship is probably doomed to fail - you need a plan.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

GG

Here's the carrot and the stick Plan A thread someone mentioned earlier...

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2224241&page=1

Hi GG,
Thanks for those links, it cleared up a misunderstanding on my part. I thought plan A was a general plan for rebuilding M ... guess I wasn´t in good shape when I read it. WH says that he broke it off with OW two days prior to Dday, the day after I showed up at his office and crowded his "group date" with her. It really shook him up. When I confronted OW, 2 days after Dday, she also said they broke it off the same day he said. I didn´t believe WH originally, but I think I do now. But then again, I´m gullible

I think it is very important to read and RE-read, again and again. Now I got from it that plan A was to use if WSpouse refuses to break it off. Not only did he say he already had broken it off, but we moved away and I am very confident that there is NC. We have spent so much time together, he really hasn´t had time to. First after moving we spent 24/7 together finding housing and setting up house. In the first weeks after Dday, he did see her occasionally at work, but there was no communication. It may have delayed he withdrawal ... who knows.

Any way, I just now ordered an itemized phone bill for the last 3 months. I didn´t realize I could just call and ask for one! And I wasn´t even calling from his phone. But I guess they don´t have strict procedures for that with that company!!!

I´m still fighting my urge to try to access her e-mail ...

Part of plan is making sure there's NC. I would recommend you do the EN again. Needs change. I did the EN with my FWH again a few months ago because I knew my needs changed. You are right about rereading articles or books - I do that all the time. I always learn something new. It sounds like your WH is committed to R. You should have to make sure and follow-through with the steps here. I wish I had known about this site after DDay. I found it after four months of MC.

!!!!! This trickle truth is driving me crazy, it really is.
So I think we are doing ok, and out of the blue, we are talking about an event, and out comes a small detail, I go: wait a minute, did THAT happen ... uh, uh yeah, and out comes another story. I though I had it all, I thought we could work through the details, I could learn to live with it, then I´m slammed with new information that I was deliberatley mislead about.

I know, it fits the playbook, to the T.

So I start going crazy with the details again, working on the timeline, looking for new evidence and so on. I ordered the itemized phonebill, still waiting for it, it should come any day now. But I boke down and sent the OW an e-mail, I wanted to have NC aswell, as I had left our encounter on the moral highground, but I stooped to the level of crazy wife (I hate being that person, and that WH made me that way!!) OW responds, I wanted some detailse, she said she didn´t remember, and didn´t have any records.

The "funnny" thing is when I told WH that I contacted OW, he was outraged, that I shouldn´t bring her into our marriage (yeah right, HE DID THAT). I get all upset, that he doesn´t see that this is an expression of my insecurity and that I feel he hasn´t been fully truthfull, and I´m looking for info. So ... in the aftermath of that discussion he brings up more details that he has knowingly been keeping from me.

Does this ever end! If he had been a good lier, and stuck to his gunns, I might have come around to thinking that he has told all, but his guilt was killing him (GOOD!) so he came clean. I honestly belive that somethings WH really doesn´t remember, or hasn´t thought to tell me. But when he does add details, that brings me back to square one! Now I´m getting paranoid that there is more ... when will I know everything ... I guess I know that I will never know EVERYTHING, but when will this crazy, insane suspicious person that I have become STOP.

not edited for spelling

NS I am so there with you....I'm fully expecting more to come out (hoping NOT!)and I have also been very tempted to contact the OW. the only thing that holds me back is I know SHE loves it! I've also been tempted to call the OWBF, but I feel if he finds out anything he's going to call me again - this last d-day/NC is due to him anyway. I'v ejsut been trying very hard to look forward and when I start thinking of revenge, I just tell myself that having a happy, healthy marriage is the best revenge and that FWH didn't really get away with it - even if I have no way of knowing that I know everything, I know the guilt will eventually catch up wiht him.

We just got back from our spring break, it was good. H had asked me if we could have a vacation from our marital problems as well, I said I would do what I could, but didn’t know if I could just push it out of my mind. It was actually easier than I thought not to talk and think about our problems. On the few occasions that I thought about the A or any other problem for that matter, I didn’t mention it at all.
My concern though is that if I continue to do that, that we will not address our problems, and work on them, we will find ourselves in this situation again or divorced. If we are just going to pretend everything is OK, I would rather just get it over with and leave. I have been thinking about waiting to see if H initiates us working on our M, but worried that then I’m just setting him up for failure.
Another thing that I’ve been coming back to is that I feel it is so unfair that it is my decision whether or not to divorce, which makes me feel like I would be the bad person for breaking up the marriage and not being able to forgive, rather than him, who put us in this situation.

Every body needs vacations. Everybody has to come back home though. You'll have your time.