What to do - my FWH (I hope) has come out with more facts - OW is in pitiful financial shape, living with a sibling with her son. found out my husband actually co-signed a loan for a car 3 years ago with her because no one else would. (Hmmmm - there must be a reason for that - the car ended up being a lemon that the dealer took back) Anyway, he still sees her as this "person with potential that can't get a break" where I see someone that uses other people to get what she can't for herself! The gist is that he still feels sorry for her and I'm thinking that's a recipe for breaking the NC. Sometimes I feel like my ability to look after myself and solve problems pushed him toward her (not into an A, but in that direction) Advice anyone?

He can feel sorry for her all he wants, but if he wants to have a snowball's chance in hell for having his marriage to you survive, he has to have zero contact with her for life.

I'd be worried. Wayward thinking makes H a WH. OW can't take care of herself and WH wants to save her....poor, poor OW needs me. *sniff sniff* I understand what you mean about 'pushing him towards her'. I can take care of myself and solve problems without help from my H. A pitiful OW lets a WH feel needed and like a knight in shining armour (thought it's tarnished and covered in crap lol) Do you respect your WH with this mentality?

it's hard...previously I always respected the fact that he was generous and kind...obviously I never expected it to come to an A. We're just about three weeks in recovery - not everything has been told I'm sure. I'm just confused - I do need him - just not to solve all my non-marriage problems or to get a loan, etc. He was geniunely shocked when I told him she was just using him - honestly don't think that occured to him until I pointed it out. I just said "she never calls when things are going good, does she?" the look on his face told me he's beginning to understand he's beed duped

A FWH dedicated to the recovery of his marriage should not be defending the OW in this way!!!

There is more to be known here. Find out as soon as possible by confrontation or by snooping.

WH does want to admit that OW is a user or POS because he will have to admit the same about himself. Keep speaking the truth...perhaps his head with be dislodged from his butt sooner rather than later. I don't he is shocked as much as he doesn't want to see just how pathetic he was/is to have given the skank the time of day. Being kind is one thing...being stupid is another. Until WH can see the difference between the two he's still wayward. Be careful.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I think he's defending his own actions more than hers now....still only admits to an EA, swears it was never a PA - very hard for me to believe considering the lenght of time they were involved. Will be away a couple of weeks from now with daughters - have a PI to watch - I figure if he's going to stray again, he'll do it then

what's a POS?

Piece of poop. The "S" is another word for poop.

ha-ha okay - I was thinking it was a MB inital! Ha - I needed a laugh!

My WH felt sorry for OW, I really think she played into it. What I´ve been doing about that is to confront his misconceptions, point out where she is capable, and how she has been manipulating him, or pull it out of him so he states the contradictions himself and has to confront them. I think it´s working ...

wow - you sound very similar
BS (me) 42
F?WH 44
M 17y tg 18
2 DD's 13 & 8
D-day #1 - Aug 2007, #2 April 08, #3 March 3, 09
NC march 5, 2009

OW is beyond pathetic - 2 year old illegitimate kid, no job, no high school diploma, nothing going for her other than a pair of you-know-whats....don't know if that makes it easier or harder

My FWH felt sorry for his FOW as well. And i feel the same way that i did not "need" my H to do things for me, i am a very independent person.

I sometimes wonder if that helped "push" him into the A as well. Not that i am trying to take the blame as he is the one who had the A, just my part in the M.

And i too still think he has these thoughts about the FOW, that she is this innocent little creature who needed his help, not that she is the "white trash ho" that she really is, i mean there are so many things that i have pointed out to him that she LIED to him about but still he does not say anything bad about her.

I think it would make him have to face the fact the he was "duped" and he doesn't want to do that maybe......

I recently lived through the same situation. I believed everything he told me--it was just a close friendship--yes, we spent too much time talking--there was never sex!!! As much as I wanted to believe my WH, I kept digging because it did not make sense that he could have been so involved emotionally with someone for so long a period of time. The truth finally came out. He was lying to keep me from finding out the full ugly truth. Your WH is lying about the PA.

HOW DO YOU GET THEM TO ADMIT TO A PA IF THEY DON'T WANT TO....we've really been communicating well, but that is the bone that is stuck in my throat - I don't know why I want him to admit to a PA, maybe I'll be able to move on a little better - how long are most plan A's?

I would not ask or argue with him about his A being a EA vs a PA. I would clearly state that you KNOW it was a PA and the fact that he still denies it and continues the charade reduces your chances of recovery. Have you exposed his A? How long has NC been in place? Are you willing to continue the M if he never admits to the PA? Sorry, but I don't believe for one second WH has a 4 yr A and is signing car loans for OW and there is no sex involved. No fricking way.

have not fully exposed....I know, I know, but it seems counterproductive to me in many ways. I have talked to members of my family, he's told his we are having problems, trying to work out, he's at fault, etc. but has not told details. We've also spoken to our oldest daughter (13) but not the younger (8). NC has been in place since March 5. It's not that I'm willing or unwilling to continue the marriage, just don't know if I can move totally forward until I know the full truth! Yes, it's too unbelievable to think he was associated with her for that long, that deep and it wasn't physical.

Not exposing may be a big mistake especially since you WH is so weak and blind about OW. My H had an EA/PA about 10 yrs ago. No sex, but kissing did occur. I regret everyday that I didn't expose back then. Nothing is certain, but I think it could have spared us a lot of pain had he felt the weight of the consequences for his behavior back then. Why is making him face the music for his bad behavior counterproductive? You are enabling him to keep his secrets.

I may get 2x4ed for this one but since NC (assuming there really is NC)is only a couple weeks old I would confront OW. Don't tell WH. Just call her up and throw some bait her way. She will probably be more than happy to throw WH under the bus and give you specifics that he can't spin. But you have to be clever about it. OW is a liar afterall.

My H denied, denied, and down played everything until I had the ammo to blast him.

confronting the OW is not really an option. She LOVES to talk to me - she was the one that called and told me what a horrible wife I was being to my husband on the first d-day - she gets off on telling me things and upsetting me. (Seems to be part of the pleasure of the whole deal for her) I'm just holding out hope that whe I'm gone two weeks from now, the PI can tell me something (or not) definitively. I'm hoping the NC sticks, but I'm not going to lie to myself any more. I know these things take time to heal, get better, resolve, etc. but the days are crawling by and sometimes I feel CRAZY

I might have been tempted to record one of the OW's diatribes, then play it back for your H. Might help to clear the fog a bit faster...

I'm new at this stealth stuff...how could I record her if I got her on the phone? I know in person that I could tape record...damn! Wish WH would just spill all the beans so we could move on!

Please don't get into that trap. My FWS said that the OW's H was abusive and he was afraid for her. After NC for a while that was the excuse. Turns out I got to know the OW's H and nothing could be further from the truth. I think he just used that excuse to see if she was ok. ( Actually she made all that stuff up in the beginning and my FWS knows none of it was true). I really really thought we were in recovery and about 8 weeks later I came home from a friends house and he started with that very familiar "fog" dialogue. Do anything you can to guard against this . . . You don't want to go into "round" 2 do you?

estefania, one way you can get the truth is to line up a polygraph test. This would give him an opportunity to clear his good name and get it all out on the table. That way, you can relax and he can be vindicated. I would approach it by telling you need assurance of getting the full truth in order to move forward and recover.

Getting the truth is the first step, until that happens, this train is not moving. The next step is to REPAIR the marriage and ensure this doesn't happen again.

Good idea on lining up the PI! I would also put a tap on your phone, access his cell phone bill, put a recorder in his car, a GPS on his car and put a keylogger on his computer, all that apply.

But first, get the truth and give him an opportunity to clear his good name by lining up a polygraph test.

p.s. your H is lying about non physical aspect of the affair. That is not even a good lie.

OW is beyond pathetic - 2 year old illegitimate kid, no job, no high school diploma, nothing going for her other than a pair of you-know-whats....don't know if that makes it easier or harder . . . .

I tried to read all of your posts . . . Are you sure that her 2 year old is not his?

Hi Estefania,
It does seem we have a lot in common. Especially the time frame, WH past indescressions, ages and kids ages etc. Not only that but the way we seem to be dealing with the situation.

My WH didn't recognise the EA as part of the affair, he only thought the PA was an actual A. Not until some time after Dday, did he understand that the EA was what he recognised as getting close, and opening the possibility of a PA. I'm still not sure that he would classify the EA as an A.

I would have to agree, that I find it hard to believe that it wasn't physical as well with your WH. Did you see other signs that might suggest it was physical? My WH had been loosing weight, our sex life was miserable ... I've also read that they could become more adventurous or different in some way. My WH was taking showers at OW's house afterwards, but I didn't notice.

yes I'm sure it's not his - her BF demanded a paternity test (gee, is there a pattern here or what?) and it is definitely the BF's kid

I've talked to the BF - he dropped the d-day this time...he's not exactly trustworthy BUT so far HE hasn't lied to me! He says he's not sure about a PA - I did make FWH get an std test and he was clean...we had it out yesterday pm about PA vs. EA and he says he's not going to admit to something that did not happen...continues to say that the relationship was more similar to a father/daughter than BF/GF (there is a 22 year age difference) aghhh! I'm just wavering all the time between "we're doing good, moving on" and "that sob is still lying to me!"

What do you meen by BF dropped the Dday? I don´t understand ...
Maybe it would be good to just assume that is was PA, and not badger about it, like someone suggested. He has admitted that it is/was an inapropriate relationship, hasn´t he?

I think emotionally it is important to know if it was an EA. When I first found out that my H was "flirting" with someone he denied, denied, denied anything happened and agreed to not speak with the OW. I kept saying to him . . ."if that's all there is then I can handle it . . .but I think that I am only getting 50%?" . . .I started digging into e-mails, credit cards
office phone bill and there it all was. The tone and content of the e-mails as well as flower purchases, length of phone calls ect. I saw the message he sent with the flowers. . . it became disturbingly clear that he was lying to me. He was very convincing though . . . crying and carrying on . . .there had to be more. There certainly was . . . He was afraid of what the OW's H would do also.

E:

OW ALWAYS need saving. Men WANT to be the "white knight"

What man would rather be John Wayne than Homer Simpson?

Was it a PA? Sure it was. Why else would he sign for a car loan. What else did he tie up in financial resources?

Your WH independent behaviors got him to this point. Never, EVER should one party in a marriage obligate both of them with out the other parties "enthusiastic agreement" Please read His Needs, Her Needs for that info.

I hope you have "Surviving an Affair" and have read it cover to cover....If not, order it from this website today.

Now, about you and OW. OW "just needs some support" and your Husband in kind and caring. You, on the other hand, take care of business. What can your husband see in such a loser? There, in those four lines is what you need to know to start fixing this.

And that means you have to make yourself "need" your husband. Are you "taking care of business" and disregarding your H feelings/ideas/concerns about those same things? And it doesn't matter the subject. Taking care of the house, the children, relationship with other couples, the car, money, the household, the laundry, etc.

Can your husband have an opinion about some of these issues that has been ignored and minimized over the years. Sure, you are RIGHT about these things, but would you rather be RIGHT, or married?

His Needs, Her Needs will open your eyes up to this dynamic in a marriage. It did to ours. Surviving an Affair was invaluable to my BS in seeing a way to recovery.

And, you deserve the truth. If your WH was having an EA, its just as bad as a PA. But if he never admits to the true breadth and scope of the affair, then recovery will be permanently stalled.....

LG

the boyfriend called and told me that he saw them together - what I call the 3rd d-day...perhaps you're right about just assumming that it was a PA and go from there...it's just that I can probably imagine worse than what really happened and I have a very active imagination!
Is this just one of those things that only time can take care of or what?

NotSure...men don't seem to understand that intimacy is not just sex...the sex is almost secondary to the betrayal of trust

golfer...I don't mean to sound as if I had no part in the A happening - I am very independent and we have been talking a lot about how that independence made him feel as if he wasn't needed. We have both allowed ourselves to pursue our own interests individually over the years and that has created too much space between us as well. I am in the process of reading SAA and we've both done an emotional needs survey - it's pretty slow going - he hates to read, but the last d-day I insisted that we need outside help. I originally scheduled an appt with MC, but found this website and started reading - he wanted to work through this program instead of MC, so I compromised. I think the problem right now is that he wants to pick and choose what MB advice to follow rather than going by the book - I'll admit to the same - I haven't fully exposed the A to his family. I just want this recovery to "take" there have been three d-days (or two NC broken) and I'm wanting the third time to be the charm, but I don't want to be hurt again!!

So the contact continues . . .? Therein lies the problem. He's in deep with her and it has to stop.

ocean as far as I know there has been NC since March 5 - last d-day was March 3. I know he's been in deep - 4 years is a long time

E - I know where you are and it is so hurtful. Knocks the wind right out of your sails! You're probably consumed with all of this . . . try Yoga it really helps with racing thoughts. Just a suggestion. Peace!

okay, so I've had a really hard time the past two days - cannot stop thinking about "was is a PA?" I'm even to the point where I'm thinking about contacting OW to ask her what really happened even though I know she'll use it as a chance to torture me further...who do I believe?? Am getting more and more worried that the talking, spending time together, sex that has been going so well is just a false recovery! Help veterans!

E,

Reread the advice given on your thread.

What advice, so far, have you done?

Could you update please.

Ok, V, so far:
1) 1st d-day - OW called me "as a friend" to let me know how unhappy I was making my husband - pitched an absolute fit at my WH that he never have contact again - he said "ok" and I believed him - Auguest 2007
2) 2nd d-day - last spring returned home from spring break with daughters - he did not look happy to see me AT ALL. I woke up late that night and on a hunch, snuck out to his truck to look at his cell phone. Same number multiple times daily - I called and it was her. This time, again I pitched a fit - this is when she started calling me and talking to me about how I should treat my husband to make him happier, how to raise my kids, etc. He agreed again to break all contact and we had more discussions about why he felt the need to communicate with her, etc. I began (without knowing about MB) to try and fufill some of his EN's. Believed him again that there would be no more contact. Found out more about her by snooping (workplace, full name, address, myspace page, etc.) but didn't make any disclosures to anyone.
3) d-day #3 - OW BF called March 3 to tell me to keep my H away from his son. Seems she called my H to tell him that her car was making weird sounds, could he come check it out, etc. He stopped by during his lunch, BF happened to come by with child support and caught him there. BF called me again later to fill me in on the real length of the realtionship, car loan, and lots of other stuff that I had no clue about - everything he told me my H confirmed as true. So this time I told him he could leave or stay, but if he wanted to stay he would have to: 1) cut off all contact with OW over speakerphone while I listened 2) get tested for std's and 3) seek MC. If he wanted to leave he would 1) sit our daughters down and tell them why he was leaving 2) withdraw no more than $50 a week from our joint acct's until we seperated them and 3) the OW was to have no contact with our children whatsoever. Well, he chose to stay and he has done everything except the MC - we set up an appt, but I found MB and he want us to go through this program together. So far, I have been reading SAA and we have done EN's and discussed those. I have also set up a PI to watch him the week that my daughters and I go for our spring break. Things seem to be going well, but he swears there was no PA (as if the EA is any better) and I still feel like he's lying about it and other things and I can't get past it right now!! Feel like I need to know everything -I've even told him that whatever he might tell me is not going to change my mind about letting him stay and work on our M. It's becoming an obsession for me to know everything and everything I've read on MB tells me that it's not wrong for me to want to know the whole truth! But how do I get the whole truth?

If NC can be verified, he needs to write a NC letter.
Have him do this, send it here first before you send it.

People here can determine his true intentions with what he has written.

A poly has been suggested to get the truth.

You need to keep snooping, NC may not be in place.

refuses the poly - I don't believe in them either....so you think that a NC letter is necessary even after the 3 way phone call? One of the reasons I'm so spastic right now is that every time I bring stuff up that has to do with her he gets ultra-defensive and it just seems to put us two steps back - of course I realize that he probably is using that to keep things from me. What right does he have to get mad, right...unless he is hiding something!

The 3 way call, the one where WH called OW with you present to say NC, this one right?

WH should still send a NC letter in writing with the specifics I already mentioned.
This is a written commitment signed by WH.
This is to be done after you have verified NC.

When will the PI be watching him?

What precautions are in place to ensure NC?
Have you changed his cell phone #, done what is necessary to block emails etc.?

If you find that NC is NOT in place, are you willing to expose?
If not, you need to find another plan other than MB. It is a vital part of the plan to break up A's.

Why won't WH do a poly? This would concern me. A WS who is wanting to rebuild a M would be willing to do this.

Try to be a bit more open-minded about the poly, it may be your only way of knowing the truth.

ok everyone, so Thursday I gave fwh a letter that I found on here (I think by Leo?) about why it's so important to know the details of the A - changed some things to fit our situation...he read it - he said he didn't know where to start, so I calmly asked (REALLY hard to be calm, but I did) if I could just start asking him questions. He said ok and we talked for about 2 hours I started from the beginning of the realtionship in 2005 all the way to the last d-day this March. Alot of stuff that was very hard to hear...but I feel like I finally have the truth. There was some physical stuff, not intercourse (doesn't make it hurt less) basically because they couldn't find the opportunity. It hurt really bad to hear and to have to keep asking questions that I didn't really want to hear the answer to, but I feel like we have a shot at moving forward now. I've been really relieved the past two days - told him that I will still probably come up with more questions and he says he will continue to answer. I'm gonna continue with my spring break PI plans and I will continue to monitor her myspace and his phone/email. I guess my question for you veterans now is....when do I quit snooping? Is there a time frame I should set for myself or let it happen naturally? Any advice would be appreciated...

WOW, that is so funny, I just sortof asked the same question on my thread, and then came to catch up with you. For some reason I feel a bond with you. Probably cus we are sharing this experience and have some similarities.

Let me say, from my recent experience, WH did not tell the whole truth, and from what I read here is that they tend to tell a little, think that is enough to get you to stop asking, and hope you don´t find out the whole truth, because it is sooo much worse. But for me it isn´t really worse, that is the details they ommit, but a kind of saving face, and maybe I think keeping some of it private, for their own fantacylife or memories that aren´t tainted by your tears or reaction. I´m rambeling here ...

No, I get what you mean ...but for some reason I feel like I know all I need to know...for now. I'm sure the urge to snoop will be coming and going for quite some time. Maybe I'm being a fool, but I can't imagine him telling me something worse than what I can imagine. But NC looks firm and we're trying to work on EN's - I think doing pretty good. It's going to be a while before I totally let my guard down though.

E,

If NC has stayed in place since Mar.5, it is because OWBF exposed to you. See, it works.
That first day back in Aug., you should have exposed.
If you find another broken NC, which you very well might, you need to do a nuclear exposure.

Other than being a nice H and communicating well, what has WH been doing for just compensation?
Are you reading the books together?

One more time, he needs to write a NC letter, is he willing to do this?

E,

This has been going on for over 3 years and there was some 'physical stuff' but not intercourse?!?! C'mon...you cannot possibly believe that?!? He is trickle truthing you. He is giving you a little bit more each time you talk. He is hoping you will be satisfied and apparently you are so now he can keep the rest secret. It's pretty much standard practice for waywards to do this. I'm sorry but I think you are in for more heartache in the future......

If you believe there was no intercourse then I have a bridge to sell you.....

Mindshare

Vitt & MS
I don't doubt either one of you and you guys have obviously been dealing with this longer. Right now I feel like I need to move on...will it come back to bite me in the a$$? Maybe, but I can't live in a constant state of pissed off, worry, anxiety. At some point I've got to put that down. I'm still snooping, PI is this coming week and I'm trying to keep tabs on everything. Will I come back to mb with another broken heart? Possible, but I've got to try to rebuild this m. We are slowly reading through SAA and both of us can see how we got where we are...the NC over the speakerphone satisfied me - he said everythign I wanted him to and I said my piece as well. How has he compensated - I continue to check his e-mail and cell phone, when I ask him questions he answers even though I may have asked 100 times before, he's making a conscious effort to meet my EN's and avoid LB. And yes Vitt, nuclear exposure and immediate plan B are my plans for any future NC broken.

Next, you will find out your husband got the OW pregnant. She will be calling you bragging about having your husband's baby! I can see it now. You are not exposing this to anyone,, admitting to yourself there is a physical affair or getting a poly.

You are not doing anything to stop this.

Hey All
Had a surprisingly restful Spring Break with my girls...will talk with PI this pm about waht went on last week while I was gone. Sure hope the news is good. If not, I guess you guys can all say you told me so....trying to be positive today.

Ahhhhh (sigh of relief and thanks)
PI says no contact has held - he went out to eat once after work, but there was no one matching OW description and her car not there at the resturant. FWH told me about eating out, so I'm feeling really good! 5 days and 600 miles away and the NC still looks good!

OK, so lots of triggers today, don't know why....things have been going really well between us, just kind of tired of Plan A I guess. I think it's normal for the BS to sometimes detach from WS, so maybe I'm just getting my first taste of that. I have really put forth an effort trying to meet his EN's and sometimes I just want to scream "hey! wake the f up! I have needs too!" We were having amazing sex after his STD test came back clean, but now it's fufilling me less and he doesn't seem to notice the lack of....response (without giving TMI!) Is this normal? Is it too soon to say we are in recovery? Is this just something I'm gonna have to slog through?

Hi Estefania,
I´m happy to hear your vacation went well in all respects I was worried for you, but I guess that is my situation that my WH cheated while I was away.
And I´m sorry to hear that you crashed after you vacation. It seems pretty normal tho. My WH and I have been having great sex, but it has been all about me meeting his needs, sure it was great for me too (GRRRRRRRRRRREAT), but he hasn´t been making the effort I hoped for to meet my needs in the way I want, so as far as I am concerned I can say: I understand (Fat lot of good that does!)