I'm rather frustrated at this point.....<P>About 9 weeks ago my H confronted me with "where do you think our marriage is going?" He left. It hit me from out of the blue.<P>Since then, I've gotten into treatment for my depression, with a very good Dr. and therapist. I've made significant progress.<P>We met with a marriage counselor and H admitted to a lifelong problem with on and off again depression. He said he'd seek help, he hasn't.<P>Since then, I've gotten H to admit to having an EA. I've e-mailed the OW and asked her to end it (I know her). His family and my family all know. Considering H's behavior, I think it 'took'. He's being a lot nicer and I can hear his voice tremble when we talk. I'm suspecting that we're moving into the emotional withdrawal phase, but I'm not sure.<P>The frustrations?<P>How to get him into treatment for his depression? I've called our mental health agency and set him up in the computer. I've contacted our families, the OW, and one of his friends. I ask him, and then sit back for about a week to see if anything happens. And we've done this several times. I know that he has to make the call for the appt. But he's already admitted to the depression --- Why won't he get treatment!?!?!<P>How are we even supposed to begin to move into Plan A if we're separated? We're not in any small town .... we're on opposite sides of a major city -- 40 miles travel one-way.<P>I've gotten SAA and have just started reading it. I'm making notes in the margins. It's good.<P>Communication is a big issue. It's partly at the source of the problems. He wouldn't talk at home. Now he's never at his place. He won't always answer the cell phone. The most reliable access is e-mail, but he doesn't always read that.<P>Right now I'm just trying to limit the contact to business. But 'business' is a major LB for him. [I'm not talking about scheduling when to see the kid, I'm talking basic finances, getting the bills paid and buying food. He never would let me do the money when we were together. Now, even when I give him over a week's notice, he won't do anything until the very last moment --- and even then he complains.]<P>I just feel like I'm in a self-defeating cycle. He won't let me love him. I'm trying to be nice and considerate of his feelings and needs..... and he's just blocking all that I do.<P>I think we've made some progress....I mean, he's admitted to the EA. We've gotten that in the open and I think/hope it's ending.<P>I want him to get into treatment for the depression.....I'm very frustrated that he's not doing it.<P>How do I handle the basic 'business' of the separation with LBing? <P>We meet with the marriage counselor again next week, I think I'll bring it up there....but I'm running out of ideas on this end.<P>Just trying to move to a Plan A....<P>~out of the fog

Out of the Fog,<P>I posted to you earlier and you didn't respond. So I don't much more now that I did before. Let us stop a second and back up.<P>First, is his behavior much different than yours was for the first 6 years of the marriage? I realize you have finally gotten rid of the depression with the right medicine, but he battled what you are just now addressing with him for 6 years. <P>You feel good, you are ready to finally get the marriage going, but he isn't. <P>He has had 6 years of a depressed W, her affair, and taking on everything himself. I think you are pushing too hard right now. You have gone from doing little for the marriage, to what appears from your post, to running the whole thing. <P>I can speak from experience, I am sure he is not happy about everyone knowing he is "depressed". He may be particularly worried about his job/profession. Many don't really look on things like depression favorably. <P>But mostly I suspect that this whole ordeal has worn him down, and he just wants to quit. You need to face that possibility. The possibility, that he (depressed or not) has no faith in the marriage or that it won't go back to what it was. That faith comes with time and patience. You need to show some patience with him. You need to become his friend again. You need to be happy with yourself, and over a period of time reestablish your relationship with your H.<P>Hauling him off to the Dr. for some meds. doesn't accomplish much of what I have mentioned. He may well be depressed, but it may be situational. Certainly, he functioned (depressed or not) very well for many years. Quite frankly, I doubt he could have done what he did, if his depression was deep.<P>So my recommendation, don't run his life. I know you want to make up for lost time. But he didn't lose it, you did via your condition. Time and patience, Ootf, T&P.<P>Your marriage problems are deep and complex, go slowly and carefully, a single pill is not going to rewrite 6 years.<P>Hope something I said helps.<P>God Bless<P>JL<P>

JL,<P>What you said last time hit home. I wasn't sure how to respond. But I backed off quite a bit, set some goals, and started towards getting myself better together.<P>He admitted that when he's depressed he handles it through a 'change of lifestyle'. That's exactly what he's trying to do: change how he dresses, who he's around, what he does with his time, how he spends his money, everything! That's why the counselor told him to get in to see someone. Because what he's doing is so radical. I mean, some of the changes are good --- I've been trying to get him to buy new clothes for a long time (what he's bought looks sharp, isn't *that* far from 'who' he is, and I've told him that I like it....).<P>With my depression, I folded into myself. I didn't go off and try to reinvent 'who' I am. I may not have been fulfilling my responsibilities to the degree that I should have been, but I didn't abandon them! <P>I've spent a lot of time thinking about why my affair happened. I know that part of it was purely physical --- it hurt to be with my H and I was too ashamed to see a Dr. about it. The emotional part? Conversation. Which, considering that communication is clearly a big issue, it hasn't been solved. I wanted so much to call him last night and just talk. I fought it for two hours, called my sister, called a female friend, finally just went to bed early. <P>After the affair, H ran everything. I basically couldn't make a move without his permission --- but I felt that considering everything, that's the way it should have been. After a while he just wouldn't turn over any of the power --- but he still complained. <P>I'm beginning to wonder if his depression wasn't the cause of mine?! After we were married I had a job that was bringing in the majority of the money. There was a lot of work that I brought home, a lot of stress. He'd come home and coup himself up in the computer room. I did everything that I could to bring him out of there. Nothing worked. I'm wondering if his behavior, the stress of work, miscarriage, apt. flooding, 1st year of marriage, botched root canal.....if all of it just added up and triggered my depression. In which case, his depression would have started first....probably because of financial insecurity and I wasn't giving him enough attention.<P>But playing the game of who caused who's depression isn't going to help. What will help is getting treatment for it. Taking that issue out of the way so that we can both see clearly and begin to deal with the substantive issues that are the foundation for the depression in both of us.<P>I'm not going around blabbering to everyone about his depression. It's family and select people who may as well be family + the OW -- who I figure should know everything. People who can influence him, who care about him. He's not listening to me; I hope he'll listen to them.<P>His job? He's been taking a lot of personal time off lately to just do whatever he wants to do. If he can do that, he can take the time off to see a Dr. That's his choice. I haven't called his boss or anything of that sort.<P>Is he tired and worn down? Yes. But he's throwing himself into other things and wearing himself down even further. First work, now martial arts. He's finding that those things don't satisfy his needs. He's trying to run from the problems rather than solve them.<P>He's in denial, and I just have to sit here and twiddle my thumbs. Have no doubts, I'm keeping busy: potty training, working on the remodeling around the house that hasn't been done, generally keeping house, Drs., backlog at work, doing a garage sale, sick daughter, etc.<BR> <BR>But thoughts of him consume me continually. Everything seems to remind me of him. I miss him.<P>I know I've got to let him go. I know I've got to let him run it out of his system....let him realize on his own what he needs to do. But it's just so hard.<P>Contact with him is down to just business and our daughter. The business stuff is an LB for him. The daughter part is strained; he complains about not seeing her enough, but he doesn't make any time in his schedule to see her, is late to pick her up (an hour and more), and has even not shown when he was expected to (without calling).<P>I know I'm supposed to try plan A first, and I need to do that for myself, but I'm feeling like he's already in plan B.<P>A lot of this is venting frustrations. I've got to vent them because they're starting to come out....there's just getting to be too many. <P>I know he's testing me. I know he's trying to push my buttons. I can't let him. I have to prove to him that I can handle it. <P>It's just so hard. I fell like I'm doing all the work when the situation is not all my fault. He admits that he has problems, but he won't do anything about them.<P>Everything seems to end with me in a Catch-22. The ball's in his court, and he's decided that he doesn't want to play. Instead of him walking off the court, he's standing there and taunting me (toss in the air, intentional miss on the serve--oops!).<P>The weird thing about all this....I'm frustrated, but I'm not mad. I still love him. <P>You're right JL, T&P. I know we're just getting started. We're in the middle of the hardest part (I hope). It's just so so hard....<P>Thanks,<BR>ootf

ootf,<P>Vent away,that is one of the great things about this site. I still don't think his depression is the problem. Yet, as you say if he wasn't depressed, then things might be clearer. No argueing that point. <P>But I do think you need to realize that he probably doesn't see the last six years like you do. I am not sure what you are telling me about him hurting you when you were with him, but I can assure you the affair hurt him a lot. It doesn't sound from your description of things that you realize that or is it you think it was handled so well that he has no residual effects from it.<P>You really don't want to involve the OW, in your attempts. She is not on your side and her agenda is far different from yours. Further, having friends and family giving unsolicited advice is usually not received well. If you are preceived to be the source of this information and the advice, then it will be a hugh LB.<P>How much have you talked since you began to really respond to the med's?? If it hasn't been much, then I would encourage you to sit down and air things out a bit.<P>I realize that it takes two to make a marriage work or not work, but you must realize that he doesn't want it anymore. That is what Plan A is all about. <P>It is the recognition that the other spouse has decided that the marriage isn't worth the effort and pain. It is the recognition that the remaining spouse must evaluate why the other spouse feels this way and decide if their behavior has something to do with it. If so, then the Plan A'er then gets to decide if they can make a change in their approach to things that would make coming back attractive.<P>Quite frankly, while you may be right about his depression, the fact that he has it or not, is not going to encourage him to come back. If you feel that he is missing something in his life and therefore is unhappy, then see if you can change things (yourself) so that you provide those missing things. You will have to start with small steps. He is withdrawn from you and really feels no need to come back.<P>Some of that may change if the depression lifts or is addressed, but my bet is that it isn't the depression that has soured him on the marriage. You need to talk with him, in a none, LB (judgemental, educational) way. Now that you are a new person he needs to get to know you.<P>ootf, this will take time. Have you considered counseling with STeve Harley? Apparently he is extraordinarily good and devising strategies that will enhance the chance of you rebuilding your marriage. <P>So please think about all of this. There is no use lining up all of the things H has done or is doing wrong. He is probably aware of those. However, you must realize that he has "decided" that this marriage isn't for him. You have the possibility of changing that decision, but it needs to be through work on yourself, not work on him. He will have to make changes later, but first and foremost you must identify his needs, realize if and when they were ever met before, and begin via small steps to meet them now.<P>Hope this helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<P>I just got back from meeting with my therapist. <P>I guess I'm just going to be keeping things in a holding pattern with H. The therapist seems to think I'm doing everything OK so far where H is concerned. I'm just going to have to ride that out and turn the focus onto myself.<P>He'll have to come around when he's good and ready, and he won't do so until then..... but you can bet I'll be receptive!<P>She asked me what I've been doing for myself --- not much. There's a lot of external things I'm having to attend to: house, daughter, family things.... not much for *me*. 3 TV shows I like. See a movie, visit a friend. Lost about 20 lbs. since this all started. Not much else. Guess I really should be doing more for me.<P>SAA is making me ask some hard questions about both affairs. I'll have to get further into the book.<P>This is just so Zen. Everyone travels a similiar path, but every path is different. And finding the path and staying on it are the hardest parts. [H is right. This is something I need to do for myself. Hopefully he'll be there at journey's end. In the meantime, you'll probably see me venting quite a bit.]<P>To answer some of the questions you've asked:<P>The physical part of my affair? -- painful intercourse with H, I'd end up curled up in a fetal ball and crying in pain. It wasn't always like that. But vaginal birth eased that problem.<P>Effects from the affair? -- on the one hand H thinks I'm still in love with OM. With Dr. and minister, he sings a different tune....'he was OK with everything, felt that I needed it.' No, he hasn't resolved it; and he won't talk about it with me. OM was a friend to both of us. OM had promised that it would end when my H said to end it. OM ended it when my H said to end it. Am I still in love with OM? Just like I'm still in love with other men that I dated/had relationships with before my H. Fond memories, but it's over! He's married and has a kid now! We'll exchange e-mail maybe several times a year....just keep up with how each other is doing....the same as I do with other friends. But I guess I should ask if even exchanging e-mail bothers my H. We haven't seen each other in over four years. No phone calls. I think maybe we got a Christmas card from his family. <P>His depression? -- When we do talk, H blames everything on me. That's part of his depression. Yes, he's missing something in his life. But he says that I'm the cause of it. He's trying to fill it with other things...and it's just not working. He's finding out that *something* is still missing. It's that he's not happy with himself. I can help correct part of it. But all the work I do isn't going to make one bit of difference until he gets some help and corrects what is wrong within himself. Until then, he's just going to fight me.<P>I'll start working on plan A, don't doubt that....... just like we've gotten the biggest issues out in the open. But I think I'm going to go and do a few things for me, things I haven't been able to do for a long time. Putt-putt golf, theater, update wardrobe, horses, other things. I used to have a life....where did it go?<P>I suppose that if I want to have a life that he's attracted to, I ought to go out and *live* it.....not just mope around the house. <P>Thanks again,<BR>~ootf

ootf,<P>It sounds like you are getting the picture. You do need to lead a life you enjoy. You cannot just hold it in, plus now that your depression has been addressed you will enjoy it more.<P>I'm going to ask this because I'm nosy and confused. Please just ignore this questions if it is too personal. If being with H was too uncomfortable, then why have an affair?<P>AS for the affair itself, it does seem to be a major thing for your H. All of these years and it hasn't been addressed. That is not good.<P>You also said he blames everything on you. Do you think that you have done other things that have hurt him? Do you think he misunderstood certain things, ie: keeping in contact with OM. <P>You see ootf, I suspect that you have come to grips with all of the issues. If you can understand where his anger and such come from then maybe you can address these issues.<P>Now, part of the blaming may be coming from him having an affair with OW. He is hurt about many things and feeling about what he is doing now. So he lashes out at someone else. That might be you. That isn't depression, that is guilt and pain.<P>The depression is coming from the state of his life.<P>If this is the case, then when you read SAA, then read His Needs Her Needs and see what you think. It seems to me you need to come to an understanding about the right way to reach out. What sore spots you are addressing. If you can identify those then you can start to take the small steps.<P>He needs to see a happy you. Happy with your life and happy to see him.<P>Hope this gives you something to thing about.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just Learning:<P>If being with H was too uncomfortable, then why have an affair?<BR>[endquote]<P>Like I said, I've been thinking about the whole mess.....how did it ever get started?<P>OM was my husband's student in martial art. I had never paid much attention to him until H pointed him out to me as a possible candidate to be a more personal student (had a lot of potential, could go far). So, since I have to also work with the more personal students, I made the effort to get to know him. I deal with more external factors, not the martial art itself....the 'wholeness' of the person.<P>What did I find out? Wants to be a minister, national merit finalist, honors student, already has a black belt in one martial art, sings, poet, dances, knows his way around a library and doing research (something I'm real big on --- finding someone I could coordinate with in doing research was just incredible....I've never been able to do that with my husband....I've never found anyone before or since!), computers, literature, math & science.....<P>He wasn't great looking, but I had a lot of respect for him and we got along great. We had a lot of things in common, things that I don't have in common with my husband. <P>Add in my depression, the problems with physical closeness with my H, H not communicating with me...... it just happened!<P>I didn't set out to do it, it just happened. I did stay honest and open with my H about it. He didn't try to stop it. Heck, he was involved in it! The OM was smaller than my H, it boosted his ego because his size was an issue for him. If anything, it relaxed me enough that H and me could be together if we were careful. <P>It filled needs. It felt good to be wanted, to be needed. To be with someone and not be hurt. To talk with someone on a higher intellectual level. To have debates over issues. To have a dance partner that wasn't going to run off and flirt with someone else (which my H does do). To be flirted with (which my H no longer does). To have poetry written to me, songs sang to me..... to be put up on a little pedestal. <P>That feels good. It was a boost I needed.<P>And who wouldn't have fond memories of that?!<P>And for him to be a man of his word? To make a promise to us as a couple? And to keep his word? <P>We heard through mutual friends that he was getting married and we sent them a wedding present. The woman he married was someone who he had talked to me about. He was beginning to woo her while our affair was ending. Our affair ended because it was naturally ending anyway. My H just pushed the process a little bit.<P>[quote]<BR>AS for the affair itself, it does seem to be a major thing for your H. All of these years and it hasn't been addressed. That is not good.<BR>[endquote]<P>I'll add that to the list of what to talk about with the marriage counselor. His attitude flips when we're with professionals though. It'll be rough to make progress on it.<P>[quote]<BR>You also said he blames everything on you. Do you think that you have done other things that have hurt him? Do you think he misunderstood certain things, ie: keeping in contact with OM.<BR>[endquote]<P>The other big issue is his 'friends'. I'm not accepted by them. They need him to do things for them, he doesn't really need them because he can do the same on his own and he has done so. But they make him feel wanted and loved....so he doesn't mind doing the work for them. How's a girl to compete with that? [The OW is accepted by the 'friends'.]<P>[quote]<BR>You see ootf, I suspect that you have come to grips with all of the issues. If you can understand where his anger and such come from then maybe you can address these issues.<BR>[endquote]<BR>So, I'll keep reading SAA. I think he may have done an emotional needs survey already. I'll have to see if I can find it. <P>[quote]<BR>If this is the case, then when you read SAA, then read His Needs Her Needs and see what you think. It seems to me you need to come to an understanding about the right way to reach out. What sore spots you are addressing. If you can identify those then you can start to take the small steps.<BR>[endquote]<P>That's what I was thinking about doing. I'm going to have to slow it way down here for a good long time. Work on the self. And get on with living!<P>Thanks again JL,<BR>~ootf

Good news!<P>H has made an appt. with a therapist to address his anger and resentment. It's not for a few weeks, but it's a start.<P>We did talk on the evening of 10/18. He has a lot of anger about my depression and how I just did absolutely nothing around the house because of it. That triggered his memories of the affair and brought back out that resentment.<P>The 'friends' issue: I made an appeal on 10/16 to the head of that group to talk with H and try to coax him into seeing someone (the man was a nurse in a psych. ward at one time). So, covertly and subtly, and when it's in H's and our child's best interest, they are helping. That's a good sign.<P>I also took Friday off and spent some time with H's parents (had daughter with me and it was day after grandfather's birthday). Turns out that H hasn't been talking with them at all. He comes in after they've gone to bed and leaves for work just as they're waking up. And they usually don't see him on the weekends. <P>They were very interested in hearing what has been going on. They are *very* concerned about him. They know that something is wrong with him, but they're not pushing it. They want to wait for him to talk. [On the other hand, I also know he's talked some with his Dad, but not his Mom.]<P>They were trying to make excuses for him and his friends on some issues, but I'd already asked the pertinent questions to dispute the conjectures that they were making. No excuses --- and they agreed with me on some issues. On others they were skeptical.<P>One thing we specifically discussed was how H handles conflict....how they handled it in their home. H was the youngest of seven children. When they sat around the dinner table and discussed problems, he generally heard consentual answers coming from his siblings (afterall, they'd been doing this all their lives, for about 15 years [age spread of the kids]). So he had a bunch of people agreeing all the time about what he should do. Not much of a training ground for learning to make decisions on your own or standing up for what you believe in. <P>So, analyze this in light of myself vs. his friends. I say X, they say Z. There's more people saying Z --- X loses.<P>In his family, he never had to weigh the decisions.....they went with numerical superiority. My opinion carries no weight against his friends. And then they coaxed him into believing that I shouldn't have an opinion....that he shouldn't listen to me.<P>I've got a big problem with this.<P>All of this was before my affair.<P>After the affair, we broke ranks with all parties involved after I became pregnant.<P>About a year - year and a half ago, he began hanging out with them occasionally again. And then all hell broke loose! <P>Once again: I am a bad person, my opinions aren't worth anything, I can't do anything, I'm not to be trusted, I never mean anything I say, I want to keep him from his friends, I prevent him from having fun, I want to control him, I want him to be my slave, I'm a failure, I'm mean, I'm self-centered, I'm a slob, I don't care about him, I don't love him, I don't love our daughter, I don't care about anything but myself, my depression is only in my head - ie. imagined ---------- avoidance, bossiness.......<P>It all started all over again. <P>So here's the correlations we have so far:<P>A: In the apt.<BR> H in computer room.<BR> Me in living room.<BR> H hanging out with friends.<BR> Me with depression problems, but H takes the time to drag me out to visit friends, etc.<P>B: In rental house.<BR> Me pregnant....depression eased.<BR> Computer and my chair are side by side...we talk.<BR> H not hanging out with friends.<P>C: In own house.<BR> Me depressed and in living room.<BR> H in computer room.<BR> H hanging out with friends again.<BR> H generally has daughter with him, didn't even ask me to go.<P>So I think we're starting to pick up a pattern here with the communication and who my H hangs out with (an attitude/influence problem).<P>The issues we'll need to address with the counselor:<BR> Communication<BR> Finances<BR> Affairs -> H's anger<BR> Friends<BR> Daughter -> affects on her, etc.<P>That's everything I see so far....<P>I see my Dr. today and we meet with the counselor on Wed. Then I see a regular Dr. next week so that we can start tracking down where my system is acting up (the depression is hereditary).<P>I think we may be moving towards Plan A. <P>I didn't get to do any reading this weekend, decided to catch my mother's cold instead....oh joy, my first experience as a single Mom, sick, and with a sick kid too (who doesn't want to take her medicine but feels really good when she does take it --- even when Mom's doesn't work too well). <BR>Tiredness has a whole new meaning.<P>~ootf

ootf,<P>When I look at your scenario I see something different.<P>You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So here's the correlations we have so far:<P>A: In the apt.<BR>H in computer room.<BR>Me in living room.<BR>H hanging out with friends.<BR>Me with depression problems, but H takes the time to drag me out to visit friends, etc.<P>B: In rental house.<BR>Me pregnant....depression eased.<BR>Computer and my chair are side by side...we talk.<BR>H not hanging out with friends.<P>C: In own house.<BR>Me depressed and in living room.<BR>H in computer room.<BR>H hanging out with friends again.<BR>H generally has daughter with him, didn't even ask me to go.<P>So I think we're starting to pick up a pattern here with the communication and who my H hangs out with (an attitude/influence problem). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The pattern I see is that your H wants to hang out with and communicate with someone that he enjoys being around.<P>Note, everytime you are depressed he hangs with friends. When you are not, he hangs with you. Message from my end of the telescope...<P>Your H can barely stand it when you are depressed and seeks other peoples company. Now this isn't much of a guess your H has told you what the problem is and was. <P>Yet, you are blaming it on his upbring, his friends, his depression, etc. All of the marriage problems seem to be (in your view) based on these three things.<P>Yet, he has flat told you that <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> We did talk on the evening of 10/18. He has a lot of anger about my depression and how I just did absolutely nothing around the house because of it. That triggered his memories of the affair and brought back out that resentment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You yourself said that you pull inward when you are depressed, while he changes things. How much fun do you think you were to be around when you pulled inward?? <P>ooft, please pay attention to what he is saying. Then look at your own logic tree. The message seems to be clear he holds deep resentment for the state of the marriage that existed for over 6 years. He still hasn't resolved the affair. Your own description of the OM as the ulitmate Renassiance man, suggests that you still have strong feels for him. And I am sure in the mind of an H who is struggling, your descriptions of OM, make it sound as if H could never compete.<P>ootf, please stop and reread your posts. I don't see anywhere where you take any real ownership for how your H may feel. I see you constantly looking for other factors as if you could not possibly be the reason for your H's feelings and his depression.<P>I am not trying to make you feel bad, ootf. I am trying to get you to look at this situation differently. I fear that if you misread what you H is feeling and thinking, you will lose him. <P>As it is now, even his parents are part of the problem. Please back off and have a cold hard look at what you have said. And realize that you must understand how he reacts to you.<P>It is clear that his friends have more sway, when you are not involved in the marriage. When you are, he was with you. WHen your depression, your job, and your affair were going full blast, he sought out his friends. I would do the same thing. They aren't against you. They probably didn't want to be around a seriously depressed person anymore than H did.<P>You are now much better. You are seeing things differently. You have energy and enthusiasm. ootf, you are a different person and I suspect all do respond to you differently. <P>If you don't believe me, ask your coworkers. You said they didn't recognize the new you. You have changed, but you must come to grips with who you were and what you acted like for 6 years of your marriage. Otherwise, you will never be able to touch your H deep down and heal him and this marriage.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<P>I've been doing a lot of thinking about whether the chicken or the egg came first. <P>How much does it really matter?<BR>Aren't the key issues more important?<P>I'm just trying to figure things out....<P>What you are saying is difficult for me to accept..... it evokes a defensive reaction. But it's a view I need to hear.<P>I've tried to write three separate responses, nothing seems to come out correctly.<P>Let me think on this a while. <P>BTW, his retreating into the computer took place well before my depression developed.<P>~ootf

Hi Out of the Fog,<P>Of course what I am saying will bring out the defensive mechanisms. It is perfectly normal and why I have been pestering you.<P>You won't get were you need to be by being defensive. Yet,it is the most normal and common reaction. If you recognize this (and you do) then go back and read Plan A again. You can see that you really cannot do it well or at all if you are defensive.<P>You need to be aggressive in evaluating yourself. That alone will change your attitude and how you project yourself. People will not see a person who is aggressive out of fear or defensiveness. THey will see a woman who understands herself; her strengths and her weaknesses.<P>You will be better able to evaluate your H's behaviors. He is in the defensive mode, you know. He is closing up and withdrawing because he has been hurt,is hurting, and very likely doing something he isn't proud of (leaving the marriage). Yet, he must protect himself.<P>So when you think of it in this light, how could to people defending their turf, their pain, ever reconnect??? Very hard to visualize isn't it?? <P>ootf, you are going to get there and when you really face everything you will realize that you can be happy, you can make a strong effort to heal your marriage, and you will be far happier with yourself. You will finally know yourself, you will understand what has happened.<P>So take your time and think about this. I believe you will begin to see things differently than you do now.<P>God Bless,<P>JL