Marriage Builders
Posted By: jbongio Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 11/28/02 07:13 AM
I recently figured out the affair with an old high school friend you has been keeping an apartment 5 minutes from our house. He has been married for almost 20 years with 2 teenagers and lives 3000 miles away. He is a commercial airline pilot and conveniently keep an apartment here as a crash pad as he told his wife who was entirely unaware of what was going on -- I have been suspicious for months and finally figued it out. I was in a rage when I confronted her and ask her to leave. She has since moved into the apartment with her painful word (lover). She claims to be in deep love with this person and wants to end it with us. He currently is with his family and who knows what will happen.

I am guilty of not satisfying all of her emotional needs - so she filled them in with someone else. I am guilty of this for many years and until now never fully understood her emotional needs, and since we haven't used the questionnaire don't know completely. She told me that he does and the plan is for him to leave his family for her.

This whole mess has left a lot of people (family and friends)very emotionaly harmed.

I am hoping that since this is exposed their relationship will be terminated by him.

I currently have no communication with her since it is so painful.

I am not sure if I should try and communicate with her and truely tell her what I feel and how I did not fill her needs because I really never did understand them until now. I have so much regret and want this marriage to survive based on all our history of 7 years of marriage and 5 years together before that.

Do I try and communicate now or do I wait -- this has all taken place within the past 10 days?

I don't want to lose her or our marriage - though I have managed to destroy it
Posted By: nikko Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 11/28/02 10:26 AM
dear jbongio- i am so sorry to hear of your pain. i too am a bs.(betrayed spouse.) it seems as if you have been reading and learning, thats good, continue to do that.

first of all-you are not at fault for her affair. you may have contributed to the deterioration of your marriage, but you did not force her to go have an affair. she made that choice all on her own. she had other options available to her. dont blame yourself.

that said, i think you should tell her if you still love her and tell her you want to make your marriage work, but its gonna take alot of work, and time. you have to figure out what your boundries are, and set some ground rules. i know this is alot to absorb.

i'll be on and off today-check back later.
Posted By: Family Man Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 11/28/02 04:43 PM
Have you considered some help; additional support?

I found counselling with Steve to be very helpful.

Personal counsel can also be great support.
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 11/28/02 09:59 PM
jbongio --

Of course she says she "loves" him -- standard line right out of The Script. She may actually think she does (one of the terrible things that The Fog causes).

Nikko has it nailed down so very well: this affair isn't about you--you absolutely did not cause her to do this--it's about her poor choices. Make no mistake: she CHOSE this path when other alternatives were available.

We're often all to ready to blame ourselves when we find out ("it must have been my fault, something I did, if only...") but the incontravertable truth is that she's made a horrible mistake when she could have taken another way. You "didn't manage to detroy" anything; she's put this thing in severe jeopardy. Nothing warrants this behavior--nothing!

So, we're left to pick up the pieces and try to get things back on track, seemingly by ourselves since the WS obviously isn't interested in helping to do the job. A 7-year marriage (plus 5 years) isn't a drop in the bucket; in my book, worth spending salvage time and energy on.

Welcome to MB -- we're here to help you all we can. We'll sit with you and listen and sympathize anytime you want. I'm sorry for these last ten days in your life; you wonder how you'll even get your shoes on in the morning...

I think you should wait a bit, but I'm not exactly certain what for. BTW, "The Plan" is always for the OM to leave his family to join the WS; it will be some comfort for you to know--KNOW--that that almost never happens. It's all part of the "talk"--and it's always just talk. Sweet talk. Enough of it and the "right" words to talk your W into rationalizing the A. Hard to believe but absolutely true. Nothing but talk. It'll never happen--trust me on this. He'll never leave his family and she'll be left high and dry. These A's usually die a natural death all on their own, and usually within months. Take heart, know the statistics, love her more (she's in The Fog and can't think straight).

Post again and let us know how you're doing. We're here for you, day and night.

Ammon
Posted By: empc Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 11/28/02 10:54 PM
dear ammom i am just observing, you have worried me a bit. my wife's om left his family 6 months ago and now lives on his own. my wife asked me to leave her 4 months before d day around the same time. as far as i know he is still away form his family. my wife now wants a trial separation and says in return she will not see om but i know for a fact they have been on the phone recently expressing their love. do you think i would be a fool to try this trial separation on this basis? i dont want the wool pulled over my eyes twice. at the moment i dont feel mentally fit to move out on my own and she doesnt want to move out with kids. i suppose it is good news that she hasn't left to live with him but i think it is only the practical implications that is stopping her - then again i suppoe that gives room for hope as well. any thoughts?
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 11/28/02 11:24 PM
Empc --

Sorry to intrude on JBongio's thread with this response to you, but I trust he won't mind...

I stick by the odds. The statistics say OM's rarely if ever leave their families for the OW. When it's time to put up or shut up, they shut up, put their tail between their legs, and slink off into the night.

You can't stop your W from talking with him/seeing him/being with him -- if that's the way this is going to go, there's not much you can do about it. Practically speaking, how could you stop her if she really wants to do those things?

A "trial separation" asked for by the WS is virtually a guarantee to a total separation, i.e. there's really no such thing in my book. Don't fall for this "trial" business. If she wants a separation, again, what can you do to stop it?

Don't fall for that utter garbage about a bargain: "if you let us separate, I won't see the OM" = complete fog-driven nonsense. Don't believe it for one second. It's just a ploy to gain your agreement, nothing more. Yes, IMHO, you would be a fool to believe it. Think about it: why does she want to separate? Freedom! What will she do with that new-found freedom?.......you got it!

Since you know that your W and OM are still involved (the phone call, if nothing else), just keep your eyes open. Your wife sounds exactly like mine in that regard. The only reasons she wouldn't leave to pursue that freedom with her OM were practical and logistical ones, so I left, over a year ago. When I did, she was "free" to move on things, which she did. She continues to this day. Your W will most probably do the same (maybe, hopefully, not) so be prepared. If you were told that you could have "carte blanche" to reach into the cookie jar without repercussions of any kind, how often would you be in the kitchen?

Remember that with The Fog in place, she can't see, think, or act clearly, fairly, or sanely. Everything's tinged, clouded, by The Fog. She's not thinking normally or rationally. All she can see is the potential to pursue this relationship with the OM freely and clearly; of course she's going to ask for a "trial separation."

Sorry to worry you. I don't mean to...but maybe, inadvertently, I do. Forewarned is forearmed. Let's chat again. Not to slight JBongio, but I can do two things at the same time. Let me know how you're doing--maybe start your own thread so we're not "horning in" on his.

Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 11/29/02 07:56 PM
Ammon thank you for the support. More to the story. We began in Sept of 2000 a relocation from the east coast to the west coast primarily at her request to give us an opportunity to develop a stronger closeness. She has a so called best friend in N Cal who she missed and wanted to be closer to, we built a new home over a period of the better part of a year and finally arrived in S. Oregon in Dec 2001. BTW her so called best friend provided a large amount of cover for her initial meetings with the OM. Part of what was going on was an estrangement with her 16 year old son at the time who relocated before we actually moved west to live with his father in the east.

In the early part of our house building and relo plans she was on top of the world - everything seemed going our way. I felt our relationship was going to take on a new level - sure did sometime during this whole process she made contact with the OM former school friend now airline pilot. She is very attractive so I'm sure he felt the attraction - she acted on it. It escalated in the name of love BS. I spoke briefly to the OM's wife to let her know what was going on. Basically I knocked her out of her shoes - she said there was no sign whatever. This AH had the nerve to even be in our house many times when I was away on business - beats a small apartment I'm sure.

I feel like she is going through some mis life crisis thing and lost her way. I also feel she has some serious issues with her self and has never been held responsible internally within her self. Her parents told me they know she is spoiled but continue to contribute to it by supporting her through love for any of her actions.

Am I crazy for wanting to fix her/us and hold this thing together. This is my third marriage her second - my commitment to this one was forever thought hers too. We went through a lot of stress together -- Her son who I helped raise sent me an email afetr this happened to let me know how much I contributed to him by being his step father. He was with us duringthe majority of his growing up age 5 to 16 his Dad was close by so he really was his Dad. Guess I did something right.

She has now created a story around me and my lack of attention to her needs - non compatibilty, and has work hard in the past 6 months to make me feel inadequate by deeds and words. I now know what that was all about.

I believe my only hope is if and when the OM does not follow through she will have that traumatic experience that will allow her to take ownership for something/herself for a change. I have felt very used in all this. It almost sounds like alcohol or drug addiction doesn't it?

She has nothing - only her clothes/office equipment and her 2 dogs and is completely expecting the OM I'm sure to take care of her.

We exchanged emails recently I initiated it to let her know I did some soul searching and better undertand our past communications issues that did do harm - but could have been repaired through counseling.I also told her that I was willing to do what it took to repair this and I loved her deeply. Her response was you can guess that I was responsible for all of this because over the years my attention was on the things (hobby) instead of her. I tried many times to included her and she was involved earlier but began to find fault with everyting associated with it.

Where will this all end?
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 11/29/02 09:56 PM
Jbongio --

Thanks for the update. I believe all of us do a pretty darn-good job of supporting one another here. It's a safe environment and we know we can come here to find what we need to survive.

You are not--repeat not--crazy for wanting to hold your seven-year marriage together. You've figured out a lot of this on your own and have a good handle on most of it. That doesn't make it any easier to bear but we can see it objectively, from the outside, while you're right in the thick of it and very emotionally involved (rightly so).

Again, the statistics say that this will end on its own, that the OM will not follow through with any of his "promises," that your W will be left out in the cold without OM and without you--so you've got to remain available. You want your marriage to continue so you're in there fighting for it. She says she doesn't (typical fog-speak) but what happens when the bubble bursts and OM is once again flying the friendly skies with W? I'll tell you what happens: cold shower time for her. Reality sets in once again. The Fog lifts and clarity of thought and deed are restored. Epiphany!

You have every right to feel used in this, but what are your choices since you want your W back. You need to hang in there for the relationship and for yourself, really for her too. The Fog affects and cripples in exactly the same ways that drug and alcohol addiction touches and maims all those within reach (you made a good analogy!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> -- just the addict but all of the co-dependents.

BTW, my DivorceCare support group says that 92% of all third marriages fail, along with 87% of all second marriages. That hurt when I heard that -- a 9 out of 10 chance that a third marriage won't make it. So...beat the odds here. Hang in and stay focused. You know what you want to happen, are you patient enough to wait for it. Is SHE worth your pain? Work on yourself, read and read some more, get into counseling, create a better you...

Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 11/30/02 04:22 AM
To all I would be the first to say before this all happened that I didn't believe a support group like this could help. I was unbelievably wrong -- this forum has given me clarity, support, understanding, and peace. thank you so much.

I so much want to keep my M together so I'm going to put my patience to the test and hang in there for the hopeful end of the A and recovery if the Fog lifts. As you have read I have exchanged emails with my WS with one small glimmer in her response that I touched her with my openness never heard from me before.

I'm having my first visit with a counselor next Monday. Keep looking for confirmation that the A will end - God give me patience
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 11/30/02 09:43 PM
Here is her latest response to me -- is this the Fog talking or is it too late?

Too much has happened to me to ever know if time would have been on our side to prevent this a year or so ago.
I guess the move out here masked a lot of my pain and I thought my relationship with you would change and improve. I was wrong.

It seems like I was hurting inside for longer than I care to remember.
I think I told you there wasn't
a day that went by that I didn't get up in the morning and wonder if I could TRULY ever be happy with you. It was always
in the forefront on my brain and even when I told you, you didn't realize the severity of my pain with you. When
I met and fell in love with someone else, I knew how powerful that force really was.

I know you think you can change, but fundamentally I know now you are too quiet and introverted to share with me
what I've known for a long time I needed.

I'm so sorry too; I hope we can remain 'friends' after we both heal; yes, I need time to heal too.
Posted By: est Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 11/30/02 10:52 PM
If nothing else, take the "quiet and introverted" comment and work on that. And do it for yourself. If she notices (without you pointing it out), great.

To put it into a EN context, she's alluding to an unmet EN.
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/01/02 12:11 AM
jbongio --

"Is this the Fog talking or is it too late?"

IMHO, this is "Fog-Speak" at its most rampant and obvious, even down to some identical words and phrases. We've heard it all before.

Take, for instance, "When I met and fell in love with someone else..." and "I hope we can remain 'friends'" -- it's all in the script.

It's a well-constructed and apparently sincere message to you, enough so to worry you even more as it appears to strike at the very heart of your problems. Notice that she's suddenly got it all figured out, all these years of questioning and suffering, only now has it become clear. If I/we had only acted sooner...did she make her needs known to you? Did you know that there were "structural" problems in your relationship? I'll bet you didn't.

Two points: she says that "Too much has happened to me" -- She's of course alluding to her A and that in and of itself says that what follows has little basis in reality.

Second, she says that as a result of "the move out here...my relationship with you would change and improve." More garbage, more Fog-Speak. She's going to improve your relationship by moving in with another guy????? Utter nonsense, again with no basis in reality.

You've been married to this woman for 7 years, you KNOW her well--does this sound like her? Not at all because it's "not" her -- the aliens have landed. Read WAT's wonderful and very applicable Guide for Betrayed Spouses elsewhere on this site. It's all in there, everything we need to know and think about to see through this stuff.

Is it possible she means what she's written? Yes, it's possible. Is it likely, probable? No, although she thinks she does for now. So you need to hang in, take care of yourself, post again so that we can help, get into counseling, and see this thing for what it really is. Give her time--the odds say not if the Fog will clear, but when. We're here for you...

Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/01/02 01:08 AM
Ammon

Thanks for your support - please tell me I not hearing what I want to hear from this forum. My quietness and so called introvertedness have not magically surfaced since she saw the light. Although I do admit I need to work on it, but it was not an issue in the beginning nor later in our relationship. She has further developed it in her mind since the Fog has come in.

She has looked for the easy way out if that's what's to be. I have had my traumatic experience and am ready to resolve my issues and would willing do the same with her.

One EN I sure is being carried out is an intense sexual relationship probably at the very top of her list of needs that = love btw. My hope is the OM was using this as play time and will walk since its out in the open. Although she can be very powerful with her body - will he give up 20 years and two teen agers plus a house/retirement/savings who knows what else? She has told me the OM W is going to cooperate since they have had their own issues.

We'll see
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/01/02 01:32 PM
jbongio --

"We'll see" you say = a good, smart way to look at all of this stuff. This is one of the most difficult parts of the process--marking time, waiting for the cue, standing on the sidelines. You feel that you "ought to be doing something" and your inaction frustrates you all the more.

Standard advice around here says, since almost all A's die out and end by themselves, that BS's should stay away from any direct attempts to end them earlier. Don't interfere. So hard to do but necessary. Let it die a natural and well-deserved death.

Of course these characteristics of yours she talks about have not suddenly popped up like some Atlantis from the sea bottom. Fog-Speak. She needs to create reasons to justify her behavior and lacking any solid ones, is manufacturing them. You've hit it right: "she has further developed it...since the Fog has come in." (See, now you're starting to think and talk like us)

You've got a good, realistic, and healthy take on her garbage. You're right: "She has looked for the easy way out" -- but the problem still exists; there is no easy way out, not at this point.

You ask "will he give up 20 years and two teen agers plus a house/retirement/savings who knows what else?" NO! It is playtime (as you've guessed) and when he tires of this "toy," he'll move on to the next one. That's how these thing work; that's how the Script reads.

Next Fog-Speak: "the OM W is going to cooperate since they have had their own issues." Don't you believe it, not for one second. Two reasons: #1) your W will say anything at this point to make things seem inevitable (they're not at all), and #2) it's all heresay anyhow. Even if your W is relaying something OM has told her, it's coming from him, the Ultimate Liar. He'll say anything to keep this A going. I'm not really suggesting this but if you phoned the OMW, would you hear the same thing from her? Not at all!

Again, your "we'll see" is the wise path here, difficult but prudent. We're here for you 24/7 so post again soon and hang in, this may take some time...

Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/02/02 03:01 AM
Ammon - thanks for keeping me focused on the reality of what's going on. Its tough trying to stay in the background.

I do have a question in the A process. I'm hoping that the Xmas season will have a significant impact on this -- I know its starting to affect me. I believe it is going to be messy for WS and OM - there is no family attachment at all between families.

All of my WS's family and her son are in the east, I'm not sure how she's going to deal with it. I don't see her sitting here in the west by herself -- she'll explode. Maybe she hasn't thought that far ahead. Although there is one relief value - the so called friends in NCal a car ride away - the OM to show up there?

Got to stop trying to figure all the details out - only want the A to end.

BTW you seemed to be a counselor by your clarity and coaching -- doesn't matter its all appreciated
Jbongio,

I just wanted to put my two cents in here. I Have been going on this trip now for two months and have come to learn quite a bit about myself in the process. Listen it is great that you have come to this site. I has worked wonders for me to know that I am not alone.

Some words of advice that may help. I'll show you these from my expierences.

My WW and I were trying to have a child over the last year. In October when that time came I said c'mon its that time isn't it? She found excuses not to do it for a couple of days. Now this was very abnormal for her. She had everthing down to a science as to when, where and how. By the third day I said what is wrong. She then told me that she didn't think our marriage was strong enough to have children. Well when I heard that I thought that I was being attacked so I took little notice of it and actually said some not so nice things back at her.

The next day when I woke up...I WOKE UP!!! Can't explain it but what ever it was I knew that I was in trouble and that through an epiphany or Gods will I knew all that I have done over the years put her in this place. Yes I was not meeting her EN's. I was selfish and very negletful of our 6 year marriage (10 year relationship).

Well a couple of days later all Hell broke loose. I knew that I was in serious trouble and that I needed to make changes in my life. I had always felt a great deal of love for my wife but for what ever reason never let her know the way she needed. We had a talk and both cried. The next day she said that she wanted to live on her own for a while because she had basically lived alone in our own house. I tried my best to see if we could work on this and go to counselling. She half hearted to agree.

Now at this point I had found this site. Read just about ever document I could find. Read "Why women leave men". I fit into just about every catagory. That week I started to do the Plan A but, not taking the advice of many here, I still pressured my WW to discuss her feelings about our M just about everyday. That was getting me now where. A couple of days later I found out by overhearing a conversation that she was having with a friend that she infact was seeing someone else. First lie. She had said there was no one else. While I listened I heard that the OM was the best thing to happen to her and that this must be a sign. She described them as Soul Mates. Said that they had everything in common. In fact OM was married and having difficulties of with his own M. They were coworkers and saw each other everyday. Well I freaked. I didn't know what to do. My whole body shook and I must have looked like a complete mad man. I confronted her after her call. She cried and wanted me to throw her out. NO WAY!! I wouldn't give her the satisfaction.

The next day we went to our first MC session. MY W was not that upset other than lying to me. By this time I knew that I put her in the position to have an A but I didn't make her do it. I took off for a couple of days to visit a fried out of state to try and relax. 72 hours of a panic attack and you will need to get away. Now at this point I thought that my W would want to work on the M. I mean she was going to counselling. Still living under the same roof and the A was only an EA. So before I left I asked for NC with this OM because we couldn't work on us with the distraction of him. I was trying to edjucate her with all this new knowleged I had been getting from this site and all its wonderful people.

I got back and found out that she lied again and was still talking with this guy. She said that she still wanted to live on her own. I still tried to reason with her by telling her all this was normal. That we were text book case study for this. We went to a couple of more MC sessions with the focus mostly on me and why I was selfish and not giving with my emotions. Important to note that since I caught her lying about NC the second time she did stop speaking with him.

OK now lets move to the Friday before Thanksgiving. OM was laidoff of work. We had a session that night. I emailed my wife about something else that day when I found out about this. She said that she didn't want to to to MC and didn't want to talk with me right now. Well I did get her to counselling that night and the session wasn't good at all. Basically she was very angry towards me and the whole situation. She even left 15 minutes early. The MC told her that the ball was in her court. She needed to make a decision and couldn't wait for me to do it for her. Meaning I wasn't going to quit on her so what was she going to do. Well later that night we had talked about taking some time away from each other. Two or three weeks. I left for the weekend so that she could think.

Got back and she said that she couldn't do this anymore and that now she was planning on a much longer seperation. You know seperate bank accounts, getting an apartment, the whole nine yards. Well what was I going to do? I can't make her love me, I can't make her stay, I can't make her do anything. So I said OK go if you have to but slow down a little. Go to your dads place since he won't be there for the next several weeks while we can figure out all the finances. I helped her bring some suitcases to her dads place and gave her a note explaining how much I love her and that I am trying to be a better man day after day.

Now here are some hard learned lessons that I finally got through this. Hopefully they can help you.

1. Do the plan A but don't pressure her about feelings towards you or OM. Infact don't go out of your way to tell her how you feel about her. Just make the time you have together as stress free as you can. Talk about anything else that you two enjoy.
2. Stop driving yourself crazy about it being all your fault. I thought the same thing and some days I still do. You may have made bad decisions that put her in that place but she made all the mistakes after that. Not you.
3. You can not control her. She is going to do what she is going to do. You can only control yourself. Find something to do. Stay healthy. I go to the gym more than ever before. I don't eat much now but I'm making myself take the vitamins and eating stuff that is good for me.
4. Stop acting needy. That was a big one for me. The more my WW saw me and how hard I was trying to be nice to her the more she wanted out. Guilt maybe?
5. When you do talk take the time to listen to her and don't keep forcing your agenda on her. For instance as soon as I found out about OM I said OK now is the time for NC. I wasn't listing. She never told me she wanted to work on our marriage. NC was coming out as a selfish demand at that time. When she comes back to you then use NC as a term for agreement.

These are just some of the things that I had to learn the hard way. I'm still in a lousy place in my heart. You can read some of my posts on the "in recovery" board. I hope some of this helps. Good luck to you in your quest to save your M.
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/02/02 10:34 PM
Help - I need some advise. I had my first counseling session today - the physcologist confirm everything up to this point. The OM will probably not follow through and the WW will be left with what to do. I believe she is still in the Fog and is not thinking straight yet. The OM has not yet failed to deliver. The counselor suggested I take the initative to tell her I want to make this work and we can do it togehter and our marriage could be better than belief. I couldn't be her friend as the fog has suggested but need to move ahead with my emotional life, my commitment is with her but if that can't be then for myself I need to resolve my hurt with counseling and take my life forward.

The big question is this too premature? Do I continue to wait for her waterloo with the OM?

Help!
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/02/02 10:59 PM
jbongio --

I'm still here with you on this. I knew that today was your first counseling session and I was eager to hear the results and how you're feeling in general. See, your counselor affirmed the standard scenario: OM won't follow through and WW will be out in the cold. You see, "push hasn't come to shove" yet so the CandyMan doesn't need to go any farther with any "plans."

So...my answer: yes, it's way too premature for you to "move on," so you wait as long as you're comfortable waiting, as long as you don't feel stuck. I think you've answered your own question (again!): "I want to make this work and we can do it together and our marriage could be better than belief." So, don't turn your back on this quite yet. As I said, it's a process with its own timeline; it has to run its own course in its own way. As much as you'd like to, you can't rush it.

Only when you've reached your saturation point should you "take your life forward." That isn't to say you should take steps to protect yourself and definitely stay in counseling, certainly to help you resolve your pain. Have you had enough yet?

Thank you for your kind words. I'm a "counselor" only in the sense that I'm a teacher and work with and counsel my students everyday.

Hang in Jim, it's a long and winding road...

Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/03/02 04:39 AM
Ammon -- thanks. My sense is I stand back get focused on other things not easy to do but I'll find a way.

I got this in email yesterday:

I hope this isn't inappropriate, but I just wanted to wish you good luck at your appointment tomorrow.
If I can help you, please know, I will.

I hope you are doing okay...I really do.

Take care,

Is this my W guilt resolution at work -- the concerned WS or is there some sign that things with the OM are in question? Or is this just some sick view of what's happen -- the concerned lets be friends act.

What does she want from me - absolution?

I sure she is waiting for me to tell her the outcome from today -- hoping that all the blame gets laid on me from the counselor. You need to fix yourself for the future, let this M go.

Fact is not surprising the counselor said I have my issues but hers are huge, beginning with taking responsibility for herself and her actions.

God give me patience
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/03/02 04:47 AM
jbongio --

Be grateful for small blessings.

Manipulative? I don't think so.

Suppose she does want absolution from you--are you prepared to give it?

And to think you were ready to give up earlier today...

Hang in there (my favorite phrase), my man.

Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/03/02 04:19 PM
Ammon - others please tell me there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

I wrote:

my appointment was very helpful. It just takes honesty when you talk to a counselor.

If your interested we could talk about it sometime.

My W responded within an hour:

I am interested in talking about it sometime if it will help you get through this.
I guess honesty is a virtue I never possessed.

Are there signs the OM is starting to waver and her guilt is on the moon.

I worked for a boss one time who said and mean it, you need to have a break down to have a break through

Do I keep my distance for now?

God give me patience
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/05/02 04:48 AM
Well just had an unhappy telephone call with WS -- same garbage - nothing left for us to fix besides I love someone else and he loves me. Did you think about are you sure he's (OM) going to do what he says. He loves me why wouldn't he.

I called to discuss meeting to discuss my counselors visit which my WS seem to have an interest in - I got the meet in a neutral place I'm concerned for you, care about you but love someone else business when I suggested the counselor believed that we could be saved and even better M.

I did get her to agree to look at the MB web site I sent her the link my only hope is her curiousity will take her there before she dismisses it as a bunch of BS.

This has left me emotionally drained again. My plan is to cut off all communication for my sake and plan on throwing in the towel in Jan. Can get a quick divorce here -- Don't know what else to do, this is crazy and is making me crazy. She has so much baggage - never been held accountable for anything in her life - Maybe the OM is doing me a favor?
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/05/02 04:49 PM
jbongio --

One of the things I learned early on in my situation is that "blow hot-blow cold" is a given, a certainty, when dealing with a WS. What you're going through is the standard way things operate once The Fog is in place--and it's firmly in place with your W.

So you have to protect yourself and not be too excited when those rare moments of clarity are present for her. She can't help herself in that regard; it's like an illness--heck, it IS an illness! You wouldn't expect that someone this "sick" with a physical and extremely debilitating problem to be anyplace other than where they are.

My W was the same exact way with her inconsistencies; we don't ever know which way the wind will blow. I STILL say: it ain't over 'til it's over--and even then it ain't over. Can you give this some more time? Can you be more patient?

If you knew that she would be back someday, you'd hang in there, wouldn't you? Of course you don't know that, but might it not be worth the effort to hang in?

I wish you well,
Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/05/02 05:32 PM
Ammon

Thanks for the incouragement.

God give me patience
Well just had an unhappy telephone call with WS
You can't take what they say at face value. What they say can change from day to day, even from hour to hour. Decide how long you can run plan A, and then settle down and run it.

-- same garbage - nothing left for us to fix besides I love someone else and he loves me. Did you think about are you sure he's (OM) going to do what he says. He loves me why wouldn't he.
If you keep talking about OM and trying to teach her, she will stay just to prove she was right. Leave this kind of stuff alone, there is no good to be done with you talking about this subject.

I called to discuss meeting to discuss my counselors visit which my WS seem to have an interest in - I got the meet in a neutral place I'm concerned for you, care about you but love someone else business when I suggested the counselor believed that we could be saved and even better M. Kind of the same, if you approach it from the standpoint of her helping you to improve yourself, and learn how to be a better person, it will probably work, but if she has said the M is over, leave that part alone for now.

I did get her to agree to look at the MB web site I sent her the link my only hope is her curiosity will take her there before she dismisses it as a bunch of BS.
Probably not good yet. You can't teach her right now. You shouldn't try to teach her right now. She is not looking to learn about marriage, or meeting needs. She is looking for emotional fulfillment. You had best learn all YOU can and plan A and be ready to pick up the pieces. One of the worst mistakes is to wait until she has a bad day with HIM and then say " I told you so." IF she starts having bad days with him, you can ask her out on a date and show her a good time. That is what will bring her back in many cases. See, OM doesn't talk about Relationships, he is not sad, he doesn't try to teach her. He is fun, he is happy, and he makes her happy. We tend to be sad, and needy and make them feel pain, and remorse.
Sometimes a little of that is good, but if they get it all the time from us, guess who they want to be with? The one that is fun, and makes them feel good.
That's why you do plan A.

This has left me emotionally drained again. My plan is to cut off all communication for my sake and plan on throwing in the towel in Jan.
If that's where you are, then you will have to do that. If you want her, you should probably plan A longer.

Don't know what else to do, this is crazy and is making me crazy.
Remember that you are not perfect either. If you give it longer, you would have time to fix you before you get out. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but you should think on things on a good day too, not just on a bad one.

She has so much baggage - never been held accountable for anything in her life - Maybe the OM is doing me a favor?
We all have baggage, we all need to fix it if we want the best kind of relationship. Use the time you have to fix yours, and improve you.

If she called today and said she was leaving OM and coming back, what would you say? That should be an indication of what you should do - if you would take her, then stay in plan A for a while yet. If you can get her to come to MC to help you and give you feedback, so much the better.

You have to make the final decision, whatever you do, we will support you. Remember, only make the final decision on a good day, not when you are depressed, and down.

I am sorry you have to go through this, heres to better days.

SS
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/08/02 01:03 AM
Well the old face to face meeting in the neutral place. WS says So what do you want to talk about to me?

Restated my conviction aboout saving things/saw counselor - I have issues but counselor said things could be saved and even better. I never wanted any of this and would not have done this to her under any circumstances. So WS takes the blame - yeah I take the blame, nothing is forever, things happen -- thought I heard the OM talking-- did I?

The big revelation from WS is that if I hadn't acted in a rage when I found out and called everyone and demanded she move out (to the OM apt) which she did- then she would have known I was more committed and she would have been more receptive. Incredable what they will say. She had the usual smugness about her, She was on MB web site and went through the EN questionnaire and of course I failed miserably.

Got the old I want you to be happy want to remain friends stuff. Also I got the I want a divorce, we need to talk about the settlement which we did.

I suggested it could happen very quickly here - she then said it takes four months I detected a stall.

She admitted the OM W wants to try and resolve their issues and I presume stay together -- listen to this the OM W is being incredable in her dealings with this says my WS.

My WS says she is at peace since she left and no emotional turmoil any longer inside her because of me. She has let all her friends and family know since she has left me she is at peace with herself. Do you think they believe this stuff?

We parted very calmly -- I said if thats what you want, I will take care of everything after the 1st of the year so all you have to do is just sign.

The smugness just kills me inside.
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/12/02 12:15 AM
Well folks I just got a nasty gram via email about how the original settlement offer isn't valid any more.

No response from me -- since thinking about all of this the correct strategy is NC

If she wants the D so bad she will have to initiate on her own - I have nothing but time.

Do I detect things are starting to unravel with the OM already? He BTW is a pilot for the newly bankrupt carrier - couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Wonder how things are at home with the OM W?
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/16/02 03:58 PM
jbongio --

Haven't heard from you since last Wednesday, so I thought I'd better weigh-in here again to let you know I'm still around in case you'd like to shoot out an update or two. Hope you're still hanging in there--no one said this was going to be easy or quick.

Does W have an attorney? Are some of the things she wants to discuss being generated from that "legal" side of things? Has W filed for D? You can drag your heels as long as possible with this--stall it off and simply not cooperate with her requests for settlements and such. Her response that "the original settlement offer isn't valid any more" is nonsense--the settlement offer is whatever you two decide upon unless and until the courts get in the picture, then things can shift around.

I told my W the exact same thing as you--that if she wanted a D so much, "she will have to initiate on her own" and mine did...

"Do I detect things are starting to unravel with the OM already?" -- Let's hope so; wouldn't that be nice? I like your still-viable sense of humor: "He BTW is a pilot for the newly bankrupt carrier-- couldn't happen to a nicer guy."

"Wonder how things are at home with the OM W?" -- yes, well, that's a whole other side to the pressures on W and OM. Be glad for that, glad that his W and children are formidably in the mix here--you don't know how much incredible effect that side of things can have on OM and the A. The overwhelming odds say, when it comes right down to it, that OM will NOT give up his family voluntarily.

I still say that hanging in with this, just as you're doing, is the only way to go. You have to know inside yourself that you did everything you possibly could do to preserve your relationship. While you can't control what W does, you certainly can control you. You are going to want to hold your head up, no matter which way things go. No quick fixes, no easy simplistic answers, this is going to take much time and patience from you. You also have a completely uncooperative partner (at least for the present) so it's all completely up to you; it's resting 100% on your shoulders; actually about 150% since she's not carrying her share of your marriage right now.

I'm pulling for you. Just don't give up hope-- without hope we lose so much of what we are as human beings. Hang in there...

Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/17/02 12:39 AM
Ammon, Thanks for the continuing vote of confidence. New up date I ran into her yesterday quite by accident - thought I noticed her car inthe apartment lot really unintention just using the road to cut across town. Any way turned around just out of curiosity - it was hers by the plate number so I cut throught the lot to get out and there she is at the mailbox with the two dogs. I cant ingnore her since she sees me so I stop and get the what are you doing here routine. Honest answer i was curious if that was your car. I get the are you ok routine - she is thinking he's here looking for me to beg some more I'm sure. Im fine and I open the door and start petting the dogs and talking to them since I'm really fond of them. See smiles and then says do you want to get a cup of coffee? My answer is no it won't do any good. - I think because I'm going to get the same Bul--hit hope your ok, seeing the counselor how's it going? No thank you!

Her expression changes like night and day to the same righteous look as usual, and doesn't say another word. I said see you later and drove off. The offer was tempting but all I could think about is how miserable and depressed she would make me. I accidently violated my NC.

I think the coffee had to due with the fact I'm sure she is lonely with Mr.about to loose his job Pilot off either at home with W or flying.

My policy will continue to be do nothing and NC. If OM W is not jumping up and down whatever I would be totally amazed. This airline he works for is going down for the count. If Mr. $$Pilot doesn't get his pay halved -- they will go into dissolution then no job at all. How to you tell your wife and kids that they are meaning less when you owe them the right to survive financial. What a MORON this OM is - guess he already proved that with being involved in a A with my W. And she W being just as selfish.

Fog please go away soon.

God give me patience.
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/21/02 10:52 PM
Quick update - Had dinner with my step son - WW's son who I helped raise, he is 17 and incredably mature lives with his Dad in the East. He has been very supportive and very disappointed in his mothers actions the A the whole selfishness on her part. We talked for over 3 hours over dinner almost entirely about his Mom and the OM. He was aware of somethings that are signs that the A is starting to unravel. The OM has not told his teen age kids -- according to the OM they are too sensitive to be told yet, he has chosen not to relocate his transportation to the west, he is considering changing to flying domestic routes - which would in my opinion remove the need to have an apt in the west.
My step son said that his MOM is in such a state that one more thing to go wrong will cause her to have a break down. My step son clearly does not trust the OM to do what he says, he thinks he is still living two lives.What a great kid he is - says he loves his MOM but clearly sees her for what she is and knows she needs to take responsibility for herself and get herself into counseling and fixed.
He truly made me feel good about myself - sees that her actions where not justified and hurt so many people including him.

What a MORON the OM, his company is bankrupt he may loose his job or have his pay cut in half. Does he have the B--ls to do the right thing for everyone including his family? Are we headed for the needed tramatic event to lift my WS's fog?
Posted By: mengott Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 12/21/02 11:07 PM
Dear Jbongio

Did you read Harley's book "surviving an Affair"?
You must.
and then start on Plan A
If you can afford it, go for counseling using Harley's service.
Be prepared for a very bumpy road.

all the best,
Mengott
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 01/06/03 12:40 AM
Looking for an opinion --things still status quo NC except for a Bu----it email from her about a checking account, no response from me. Any way has any one had experience with a WS who has many symptoms of Histrionic Personality Disorder HPD.
I have been doing a lot of reading lately and found a link from MB to a psycology site that described personality disorders. My WW has a very strong fit with all the symptoms and thinking back they were evidence even prior to the A. Her post age 40 actions have been text book for this disorder.

So the question is will her HPD symptoms which I believe to be accurate that she has at least a mild version of HPD limit the effect Plan B will have on her. I.E.her ability to refocus from her true emotional feelings to something else to get her through this - get her way.

Still NC -- she is in OM apartment Plan B

Thanks in advance - its getting easier particularly since I have a better view of the A
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 01/06/03 01:08 AM
Jbongio --

Haven't heard from you for ages, since before Christmas. Glad to see you back on the board. How are you? Holding up OK?

I know nothing about HPD but it's possible that one of our members knows something about it.

I hadn't realized that you had gone to Plan B. Had you sent a NC letter? Maybe I've missed a part of your story. What did you mean you now have a better view of the A?

Glad you've posted again; we've been thinking about you. Are you still in counseling? My best wishes to you in this New Year.

Ammon
Posted By: lostnikie Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 01/06/03 02:12 AM
Sorry for your pain, but-it takes two to make or
break a marriage!

I've been in a marriage for 15yrs, I'm at a crossroad and so is my husband. I know why
couples cheat on each other, it's because there is a break-down, that either want to face!
So, what do we do-"blame" - ourselves, eachother!

Good luck to you and don't be so hard on yourself.
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 01/06/03 04:37 AM
Ammon - Sorry for the confusion but when I found out the A, I insisted she move out -- to the OM apartment - so plan B started shortly after we had a few plan A exchanges that went no where. I have not sent a direct NC letter but have communicated all my loving feelings and desires to keep us together and my commitment to make the M better than before and I would always be there for her via email exchanges.

I got the usual in the FOG answers as posted before. So I implemented plan B NC. But have since discovered what I believe to be a long standing personality disorder with my WS that has gotten progressively worse that now includes this A. My comment about the better view of the A has to do with the fact that no matter what I may have done ENs to avoid this - it probably was going to happen anyway. No one can keep up with the ENs of a HPD personality.

Just looking for someone who has experience with a WS who had this HPD personality disorder.

My plan is to continue to wait out the end of the A. I believe the OM will end it one day as they usually do. If not Plan B will get me to the point that I will be able to end it.

I still have hope -- its just that now its obvious there are more basic issues at work with my WS - I am fearful she will have a complete break down if the OM ends the A.

Hope someone out there has some advise. I am still in counseling but have not been able to discuss my belief of HPD with the counselor yet.

Thanks as usual
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 02/01/03 11:51 PM
All - back posting - need an opinion a lot has happened. WS made an email contact that led to a wonderful week of seeing and experiencing one another again while the OM was back with his W and kids. We spent 3 overnights together at her request and had some very emotional moments BUT

OM is now back again but she is continuing contact with me but only email etc. BUt she has begun counseling for herself and has said no reconciliation. She has said she loves me and now knows it but can't let go of this other relationship - he is back in town again and they are together in the apt.

My counselor says there is hope that things are unraveling. She is going to counseling at her own valition something I didn't think she would ever do. I believe she finally hit bottom after our week together and finally realized she needed help.

I need some validation that she is in the process of fixing herself to gain the courage to end this A. It is very hurtful that they are together again and our communication is now limited. I do have a sense that she did not divulge all that happened with me - she lied to OM which I take to be a good sign.

My counselor says I need to stop thinking and analyzing and start feeling and continue with my love building.

I can think of no one who I detest more in the world than this OM, who continues to manipulate my WS - I am hopeful that she will finally gain the strength to end things.

Is time on my side? Can I should I endure this? She has asked me not to close her out and give her time and space and understanding. I am having trouble dealing with this but she doesn't know that.

Need some validation!
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 02/02/03 03:43 PM
Jbongio --

So glad to see that you're back amongst us! It's been almost a month and we were wondering how things were going. Don't forget about us.

Indeed, a lot has happened for you, and they sound to me as if they're mostly "up" things. Three overnights (at her request!) during that magical week are significant and certainly have given you renewed hope.

It is troubling that as soon as OM "finishes" with his W and children and returns to his apartment, your WS is back there with him. Don't remember, but does OMW know anything? How long now has your W been living there? This isn't what you want and certainly is very painful, but look at the overall positives in the last month:

1) W continues email contact with you, even now

2) W "returned" to you the first chance she got

3) W set up your week together, requesting it herself

4) Three glorious overnights

5) W initiated IC sessions and continues with them (unexpected bonus!)

6) W says she loves you and "now knows it" (no small progress here)

7) W lied to OM (I assume about her whereabouts during that week)

8) W asks you "not to close her out and give her time and space and understanding."

That's a pile of good signs for you to chew on. Certainly we don't want your W continuing the A but she is addicted at this point (she "can't let go of this other relationship"). Who knows how long it will take for this either to die down or explode.

Why did your IC say that "there is hope that things are unraveling"? A general comment or based on more specific information?

"I need some validation that she is in the process of fixing herself to gain the courage to end this A." -- I agree that this is her probable main goal, but not necessarily her only one with her IC. Her sessions could uncover some other issues (like why this A happened in the first place).

"My counselor says I need to stop thinking and analyzing and start feeling and continue with my love building." -- Surely you've been feeling your immense pain in this very hurtful situation all the way along. Does IC think you're over-analyzing?

"Is time on my side?" -- Yes! Most definitely!

"Can I, should I endure this?" -- Yes! You CAN do it and you should if you want your marriage to continue. She's not going to be able to help much until the A dies, so you need to be the primary advocate for your relationship.

Hang in there, jbongio, this is doable! Don't wait so long to post to us next time...

Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 02/03/03 06:57 AM
Ammon my comments

posted February 02, 2003 09:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jbongio --

So glad to see that you're back amongst us! It's been almost a month and we were wondering how things were going. Don't forget about us. (I haven't you give me strength)

Indeed, a lot has happened for you, and they sound to me as if they're mostly "up" things. Three overnights (at her request!) during that magical week are significant and certainly have given you renewed hope.

It is troubling that as soon as OM "finishes" with his W and children and returns to his apartment, your WS is back there with him. Don't remember, but does OMW know anything?(OMW knows I told her -- she is being manipulated by him I've been told she doesn't want divorce so is acccepting situation "sick lady") (OM rents apt he uses it as a place to wait to be notified to fly on reserve he can be there for weeks at a time waiting to be notified to fly gets paid for doing nothing guess why they're bankrupt)How long now has your W been living there?(little over 2 months when I demand she leave the house when I found out)This isn't what you want and certainly is very painful, but look at the overall positives in the last month:

1) W continues email contact with you, even now

2) W "returned" to you the first chance she got(i did not have contact with her whatsoever for month and half - she told me it was very painful)

3) W set up your week together, requesting it herself ( I followed up on her initial contact and things progressed -she did plan the 3 overnights)

4) Three glorious overnights

5) W initiated IC sessions and continues with them (unexpected bonus!)(She was very distraught said her self esteem was at bottom and brought up counseling - I got her in to see assoc of my counselor - mine coudn't due to conflict of interest- W said this was not to be considered reconciliation though)

6) W says she loves you and "now knows it" (no small progress here)

7) W lied to OM (I assume about her whereabouts during that week)

8) W asks you "not to close her out and give her time and space and understanding." (want to believe her)

That's a pile of good signs for you to chew on. Certainly we don't want your W continuing the A but she is addicted at this point (she "can't let go of this other relationship"). Who knows how long it will take for this either to die down or explode.

Why did your IC say that "there is hope that things are unraveling"? A general comment or based on more specific information? (general comment based on my describing W's contact.)

"I need some validation that she is in the process of fixing herself to gain the courage to end this A." -- I agree that this is her probable main goal, but not necessarily her only one with her IC. Her sessions could uncover some other issues (like why this A happened in the first place). (I need big confirmation of this - to be able to endure - I have feelings of being used - letting her have her cake and eat too -continued contact with OM just like he is doing to his S)

"My counselor says I need to stop thinking and analyzing and start feeling and continue with my love building." -- Surely you've been feeling your immense pain in this very hurtful situation all the way along. Does IC think you're over-analyzing? (IC - yes she told me so - will see IC 2/7 will discuss this)

"Is time on my side?" -- Yes! Most definitely!

"Can I, should I endure this?" -- Yes! You CAN do it and you should if you want your marriage to continue. She's not going to be able to help much until the A dies, so you need to be the primary advocate for your relationship.

Hang in there, jbongio, this is doable! Don't wait so long to post to us next time...

Do I continue with our email contact while OM is around? It is so hurtful knowing she is with him, I feel like I should be doing NC for my own sake and health.

Thanks so much again for your counseling - you are very wise - you've got me this far I thank you.
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 02/02/03 10:26 PM
new update as of this afternoon. W stopped by to pick up two books 1. A highly sensitive person HSP(me for sure her probably although not as severe) 2. SAA (wanted to know if it would help)told her if she wants to understand it will.

She is an emotional wreck - OM still around -says she cries at everything - will see counselor again this coming week - says she has a lot of anger, not sure what that means. She has figured out that she needs to fix herself first. Is still stuck and can't make a decision.

OM is now talking about counseling as well - he is one sick SOB - all about manipulating her even had the balls to ask for my cell number so he can call me if something might happen to her since I'm still the husband etc. All an act to show his concern for everyone - if he had any he would go home to his family.

God give me patience
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 02/03/03 11:47 PM
jbongio --

"Do I continue with our email contact while OM is around?" -- Tough call. Are you in a strict NC situation? I thought your 3 overnights plus that week of contact with her knocked out the NC plan. I'd stay in contact. Let her email you. She obviously is having problems sustaining this other relationship and she seems to be turning back to you throughout. Let her come. I think you need to be there for her.

Good that she wants to read and learn and grow. The SAA book is a good choice, don't know HSP. Also good that she stays in counseling, as you are. The anger is mostly guilt (a good thing). Her being stuck is also a good thing in that her conscience is giving her a hard time. Part of her is still attracted by OM and whatever that represents to her (why she returns to that situation). The other part of her is arguing and reducing the Fog. She's torn but by no means is she lost yet.

BTW, I hope your cell phone number was not provided to OM. That whole scenario is utter nonsense. You wisely haven't bought into it.

So, you continue to hang in and give it time and have the patience of a saint. This will take all you've got. Keep the updates coming...

Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 02/18/03 12:15 AM
Ammon- all Big update. Since the last post my relationship with WW has deteriorated again - the OM returned and our email communication got progressively worse - she began playing mind games with me (I'm thinking of you but don't read anything into it- sick hurtful stuff). I took several hurtful emails with me to the counselor who advised WW is really got significant problems- cant decide etc. She suggested I discuss with WW that I was moving on with her or without her her choice. In retrospect maybe the wrong thing - but her communications was killing me. We had a unpleasant phone call and she accused me of being bitter (about what I don't know).

Based on that discussion I felt complelled to call the OM's wife. To find out what was really going on from her side. Guess what before I could ask for her help to end htis A - she tells me that her and OM have resolved alot of things - both read SAA - and he is ready to end it with a no contact returning to family letter to my WW.

Unfornately my WW saw an email from OMW where she had said she had talked with me (WW doesnot know the following --and I would be available when the letter is sent to my WW.)

The net result of all of that was I got 4 nasty nasty phone calls from my WW - wanting to know why I was talking to OMW and how I'm ruining everything - hates me - is going to divorce me all intermingled with a lot of four letter words. Her anger went to the moon.

Subesequently OM returned to east coast and had to leave town and will return to his W and they will compose the A ending letter together - to be delivered by email. He has agreed to sever all contact and will be monitoed by OMW - they will be going to counseling immediately.

Now for my dilemma - my WW is near a psycological breakdown as they OM and WW have fought before he left. SheWW doesnot know he is not returning.

I need a huge dose of advice - do I wait and see if she calls me or do I intervene once I know the email has been sent. WW is living in OM apartment which he is vacating but has belongings there. OMW has agreed that he will not return but will move the belongings some other way.

My WW has only her clothes and computers and a car. She is very unstable - not sure what she is capable of.

Help!!!!!!!!!!!! - this is planned for this Thurs
As simplistic as this sounds, you can not do anything for her. In spite of her probable mental illness, she is NOT a child and she will have to learn (the hard way) that affairs can turn on the affairees and leave one or both devastated. Who knows? maybe it's going to take her crashing and burning to bring her back to reality and on the road to a healthier life.
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 02/18/03 08:59 PM
Jbongio --

What you see as deterioration, I see as progress. Painful nonetheless, but definitive steps toward resolution. Remember that we don't grow or learn life's lessons through the happy times, but only through the times of pain, sorrow, and heartbreak. You're growing throughout all of this and your W needs to be there too. Once the fantasy world starts to collapse, real introspection and advancement can take place...and not before.

What have you really learned from the OMW? The truth? Only as she sees it. Only what she's been fed by the OM: a liar and a cheater. Don't mean to dampen your spirits (well, maybe I do!), but you must see this piece in context. Under normal circumstances, I'd be jumping up and down for you, but I wouldn't take this highly questionable third-hand info as gospel truth for any amount of money. I'm not saying this can't go down this way, just that your sources are suspect. Don't assume = Rule #1.

Let's say what you've told us really will happen. It at least would explain your W's panicky contacts with you and her obviously unsteady emotions--she's worried. Four nasty phone calls to you and all telling you that you're ruining everything! Let's get real! She's running scared--a good thing!

I know it hurts to be on the receiving end of those diatribes, from anyone not to mention one's spouse. So...don't listen to her when she's like that (and expect more "like that's" as this falls apart). Just gently end the conversation. Protect yourself and your emotions first.

Let's see if this NC letter to your W really happens. I'm very doubtful and mistrustful with it but it is possible. I'm even sceptical enough to suggest that such a letter easily could be all for "show" and that it's simply a carrot put forth to take the pressure off with both OMW and you. We'll bide our time and keep our eyes open, OK? Not at all wild about it being sent email; whatever happened to good, old-fashioned snail mail? Maybe that's a generational thing?

Since you've asked for it, my advice would be to sit tight and let her come to you. You don't want her back in your life simply because she couldn't have someone else. You don't want her back angry at you because you've "ruined" her chances for happiness with OM. You don't want to settle for crumbs.

Let W handle the OM's apartment stuff herself. If OM in fact is never returning, he'll find some way of getting his things out and one of them is W! She can't/won't stay there without him, right? What will she do? Where will she go? You don't know at this point. So, you hang loose and see where this all is going. She knows where to find you. Be an observer, not a participant at this point.

What's planned for Thursday? This email NC letter? Don't necessarily expect "action" or fallout from this immediately, even if Thursday is the day. BTW, one last point: having her move back in with you without addressing and attempting to solve these problems guarantees that you both will be back in this same boat within a very short time frame. It is imperative that boundaries and understandings be established and adhered to. Otherwise, you're both in for a repeat performance.

I hope it all comes together for you. You know that I wish you well. Keep us in the loop...

Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 02/18/03 09:42 PM
Ammon - thanks for all the confirming words - what I knew in my head - but wanted it to play out differently.

You are my strength thanks again. Storms brewing I'm sure i just need to disengage and let it happen - were ever it ends as they say it is what it is
Posted By: Ammon Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 02/19/03 10:20 PM
jbongio --

Well, tomorrow's the day! Here's a word or two of encouragement for you. Know that you're in our thoughts and we certainly wish you well with everything.

Remember that this may not go down according to schedule and that even if it does, you may not see any results for some time. Don't worry or feel you need to "do something" when you haven't heard or seen anything, even after awhile. Your W knows how to get in touch with you.

Remember also that no matter how bad things seem, your W has to hit bottom before she can ever be able to rise up again. As difficult as it is for you to stand by and watch it happen, as hard as that will be for you, as much as it hurts to see, it has to go that way and you have to let it happen.

We're in your corner. Post as much as you want to and definitely keep us updated on what's going on. We're looking for a happy ending right along with you.

Ammon
Posted By: jbongio Re: Exposed her affair/says she loves him - 03/03/03 05:04 AM
Ammon -all We'll here we are two weeks later and no action from the OM - I bet your not surprized. It was all too good to be true. We have gone from a NC letter as recommended by SAA to I'm going to tell her in person including returning to the love nest.

I have spoke with the OMW many times now she is just so incredulously hurt - the OM has been commiting to end it with my WS over and over and still won't do it. There was even been an intervener a very good friend of the OM who said end it or you will loose everything.

OM is to return later this week to end it - complete BS I'm sure. My WS is emotionally unable to do anything but beg him to stay - she does in fact have a personality disorder that completely obviates any self in her, she takes all her worth from the other party.

This is all so sick and continues to damage so many people, OM will knowingly say he needs to end it but continues to procratinate, and we all know why -- he's having his cake and eating it too.

I asked the OM W if she considered plan B she has read SAA - She seems to not want to because of the TWO TEEN AGE children who still don't know.

Where am I in all this - want to believe this is ending but it seems to continue to drag on. Once the OM is away from home all his intentions just become excuses.

What will push this over the edge? I am considering turning the heat up on my WS - removing some of the support mechanisms I left - I feel a real dose of reality is now approaching. She has had use of a car that belongs entirely to me including carting him around when he is in town. My plan is to now begin to put her in a place where she has to fend on her on, the OM pays for the apt. she only has a part time job.

There are other things I can remove that will bring greater reality to the situation.

I'm really getting tired of all of this.

What's even worse is my counselor has said my WS is pitiful and really needs pyschological help besides MC. The OM just continues to further cause her deterioration by not severing the A entirely.

I'm afraid I will be doing a lot of LBing soon - maybe that's what's in order - a hugh dose of reality.
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