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Hope I'm doing this right. This is my last attempt to try and understand what is going on. I believe that my H is cheating on me with a co-worker, but he absolutely refuses to admit it. Maybe I'm the unreasonable one, but here is what I have to date.

In November I discovered that he had changed the address the cell phone bills were going to from home to work - back in January 2003. He claims to have told me about this, but I say no he did not. When I looked up the statements online there were many phone calls to his work voice mail, his work voice mail message system (leave a message to someone), to a female co-worker and a cell phone. Most calls were to the voice mail numbers and sometimes added up to 8 a day -even on weekends. I of course confronted him and he claims it was all work related. Also, there was not one old cell phone bill in the house anywhere.

Next, I discover that his credit card statements are no longer going to our home address either, and when I asked him he said that he changed that a long time ago, but again I know it was coming to the house in June. Once again, I could not find an old statement in the house. Plus he claims to have thrown all old statements away.

He told me that there was no balance on the credit card anyway and that he just used it for business travel. He has not traveled since November, yet he paid almost $2000 on it in January, but not with our checking account money. I pulled a credit report to get this information.

He claims I was worrying about nothing, yet I still felt something was wrong. So, I check our laptop for any unusual things and I find a cached copy of a hotmail account that I knew nothing about with more than 50 emails from her and the last one had a subject line of "I miss you". Again he claims it was work related and that was probably a joke. The cached copy was more than a year old so he claims that he doesn't really remember what it was about and that account is no longer open anyway. I of couse emailed something to it and it never came back as undeliverable.

Finally, last week after receiving no satisfactory answers, I checked the laptop again. I found two love letters written to her during the time period all of the phone calls and emails are going on. He talks about making love to her, about not wanting to give her up, about loving her and hating the limits on their time together. And do you know what he told me when I confronted him with that? He said he was just fantasizing about having a relationship with someone who he could make happy because he never feels like he makes me happy. All this happened shortly after the birth of our second child and I thought things were okay - not great, but okay.

Am I crazy for thinking that he did have a relationship with this women? He denies it over and over while he looks me in the eye. He tells me he loves me and he needs me and he can't live without me. And he swears that he would never, never, never, never (his words) do that to me and the kids. Has anyone ever heard of this happening before???

The Beginning sounds just like my story! But my H wouldn't say he love me at all h would say I'm just sexually atracted to you.

I do think he is having or had an affair. Don't push him away and read all the signs ask him what makes him think he doesn't make you happy? My husband did all that changed everything to a PO BOX. Demand to have access to everything! You deserve it.

Yikes, I'm sorry to say, but all the signs post to either a EA or maybe PA. You didn't mention if you had no accountability for his time.

I would read everything that's on here, try to understand some of what's going on. This will equip you with what you need to know how to proceed.

Although it seems your in a VERY bad spot right now, you actually have the upper hand, by finding this site so soon. You'll find a lot of answers here.

Try to keep your feelings about this in check from him until you have more information, both from here, and about what's going on. You'll have a better idea of how to proceed in a week or two. In the meantime, try Plan A... although your first instinct right now will be to withdraw from him, to protect yourself, it's a good place to start.

Ahhhhh....of course he's having an affair. Why do you doubt your own eyes? Your husband will lie and lie until it's impossible to avoid it any longer....his excuses are so incredibly lame. Is this woman married? I personally think it's time to compare notes with her hubby if she is.

This is a great site. I too had an OK marriage but not an affair-proof one. To be affair-proof it needs to be not just good but great.

(1) If you want to save your marriage then stay here. Get all the support that's available and read the whole site. Too many people in your situation find this site, post a few times then go away. I understand why - it's hard.

(2) Your H is clearly having a physical affair.

You wrote...
"I found two love letters written to her during the time period all of the phone calls and emails are going on. He talks about making love to her, about not wanting to give her up, about loving her and hating the limits on their time together."

My comment...
This is not a mere sexual fantasy; it is obviously tied to a relationship. I'm male and I know what male fantasies are like and they're not like that.

I know it's not what you want to hear but it's obvious that he's slept with her. Sorry. The "fantasy" explanation is bold but not very original and totally unconvincing.

(3) Facing this fact I think you are entitled to a divorce if that is what you want. Only you can decide, but I'd also say not to make quick decisions in a devasted emotional state.

(4) You may be about 50% responsible for the condition of your marriage but he is 100% responsible for the affair. Whatever the problems, an affair wasn't the answer.

(5) If you choose to try to save the marriage the strategy is on this site: Plan A, Plan B and Recovery. Read about them. They're not easy but they work.

Hang on in there baby.

This is classic WS behavior. Mine had a cell phone that I didn't even know about. The bills went to his brother's house. When I confronted my WH, he swore that I knew about the phone.

When I confronted him with motel bills, he said he went there (during the day, when he was supposed to be at work) to think.

I finally caught them in bed together, and that could not be denied.

While all this was happening he lied so sincerely that everyone in the family, and even our lawyer believed HIM. They all thought that I was the crazy one.

So your WH is just playing the role like they all do.

Actually I am pretty convinced that he is having or did have a PA with this woman and yes she is married. Thanks for all the comments of support, I was just really scared that I was pushing him to admit something he didn't do.

I just don't know where to go from here. I am following Plan A, but I cannot seem to get past the unknown. That is what is tearing me apart right now. I have told him that I love him no matter what and that our marriage is the most important thing in my life. What more can I say. I have tried to make it safe for him to tell me by reassuring him that I think anything can be fixed, but only if I know the truth. Is that wrong?

How can he tell such ridiculous lies? Why can't he just admit it so we can move on? Does that mean it is still going on or is he too ashamed.

I have all the classic symptons of the injured spouse - I can't sleep, I have to force myself to eat, and I can't concentrate on anything. I keep trying to take it day by day, but it is sooo tough! Thanks again for all the responses -at least now I don't feel like I am crazy!

Stick with us, it is not easy, but we will help you get through this.

Try to talk to the OW's husband. That may destroy their little fantasy.

Spouseguess,

Sorry, but I too have to agree with the others in here. Your H is having an A. There is no logical reason to have bills swtiched from home to work. He is obviously hiding them from you. He doesn't want you to see how often he calls her, or how much he spends on her.

I agree that you should give all the info to the OW H and let him know what you have found out. If you think you need more proof you could always look into keylogging software ( www.eblaster.com ) to see what he is writing her on his laptop. Most people will not confess unless they are faced with abolute proof that they are busted. As long as he can keep feeding you these lame excuses and you don't question them he will keep doing so. He is probably trying to find ways now to hide the A better than he has been doing so.

Good luck,
MIF

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <hr /></blockquote>In November I discovered that he had changed the address the cell phone bills were going to from home to work - back in January 2003. He claims to have told me about this, but I say no he did not. When I looked up the statements online there were many phone calls to his work voice mail, his work voice mail message system (leave a message to someone), to a female co-worker and a cell phone. Most calls were to the voice mail numbers and sometimes added up to 8 a day -even on weekends. I of course confronted him and he claims it was all work related. Also, there was not one old cell phone bill in the house anywhere.

Next, I discover that his credit card statements are no longer going to our home address either, and when I asked him he said that he changed that a long time ago, but again I know it was coming to the house in June. Once again, I could not find an old statement in the house. Plus he claims to have thrown all old statements away. <blockquote>quote:<hr /> <hr /></blockquote>This is exactly what my WS did...to hide all the expenses he spent on OW...all the files are now home..he made the mistake of bringing them back our first attempt at reconciliation...I have since gone to our bank and requested all missing statements for bank accounts and credit cards and believe you me that was an eye opener...one cell bill alone was 1200...I would suggest you do the same

[ March 30, 2004, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: New Outlook ]

I am new to this myself, so I am no expert,

BUT

I want to tell you that you are not crazy!
I feel exactly as you do. I feel like I know the truth about my H, but I just want to hear it from HIM! I want the lies to stop so we can move on and recover. I, too, thought I made it safe for him to tell me, but it will not happen on his own. For now I am Plan A'ing and gathering evidence.

I suggest that you listen to the experts that post on this board, read all that you can, and post often. That is what helps me. Reading and posting here keeps me "somewhat" sane.

As for your symptoms, many people on this board suggest anti-depressants. I have tried this and it seems to help my anxiety. Exercising helps, too.

I wish you the best.

svb

I think I know what Plan A is because I have been following this web site for at least four months now, but do I need a book? I can't even remember what is what anymore because I should know that at least.

Anyway, I believe I have all of the evidence that I will ever find because I confronted him so quickly about the cell phone bills. I didn't realize at the time how dumb that was, but I really didn't want to believe it was true. Now of course he never uses the cell phone. He probably purchased a new one or a prepaid one. I keep looking, but never find it.

The love letters were the final clincher although I really had no doubts by then either. What they did is show me just how involved they were. I would like to share somethings he wrote to her just to get an outsiders opinion because I wonder if this marriage is even salvageable. One letter was written in Jan 2003 and one in June 2003. As I said, I don't even know if it ended or not.

The first one starts "I love you, I love you so much that words can't even begin to describe the way that I feel about you. You are so incredible to me, you are the most amazing person that I have ever met........ your incredibly sexy body that I can, no matter how close we are physically, never get close enought to......Truly everything that I've ever dreamed of. You are my missing piece....This is it....nothing is the same without you. I wonder if I should suggest that we disrupt our families so we can be together...." There is a lot more, but this is the brunt of the first letter.

Now the second letter was even more painful:
"I want you to know what I am thinking - becauseyou are my best friend, because I love you so much....I love being with you, I hate being away from you, you make me feel like I've never felt before.....I have thought about your comment about starting over....with someone that you really love, a feeling I have never had until I found you....I dream of growing old with you....I am a terrible faker and I hate it...I wonder how it effects the kids (4 names)...And the act of watering the cactus is painful, and it hurts more, and it is meaningless, and I hate it.....Because I never knew the true meaning of making love until we made love.....I have never felt so loved...I don't want to hurt our spouses...I love you, and I seriously (and I mean seriously) don't know what I would do without you."

These letters are so painful to read that I want to cry everytime I see them. Since he told me that they were only a fantasy I have reread them just to make sure that I am not imagining this. What makes me even more angry is that had he told me the truth I would never have seen those.

Now I sit here and wonder how he can let someone like that go? Did he really give her up or did she decide that it wasn't worth losing her lifestyle? I feel heartbroken and so cold. Is it over between us? Why is he insisting that he loves me now and wants to work on our marriage now, when less than a year ago he felt this way about someone else???

Sorry for the length but I had to share with someone and you guys will let me know your real feelings even if they are painful to me. It can't get any worse.

I forgot to mention that he keeps everything on a PDA and that is where these letters came from. June was the last time he synched his PDA to the laptop and he just forgot to clean these up. They were not easy to find. Also, he kept this PDA locked with a password until December 2003. Then coincidentally his PDA died and everything was erased in February.

You can be assured that he was having a PA, and may be still continuing it. My WH says the same thing, that he loves me and wants to reconcile. Too bad he spends all of his money and time on OW.

I know my WH well. He wants to keep me on the line until he is sure his relationship with OW is going to work out. He can't be alone. Now I just feel sorry for him.

So start out in Plan A, and see what happens.

SpouseGuess,
I agree with all the others that your H is having an A. Whether its just an EA or has turned P, who knows. Remember that most men can't fall in love until they've been physical while most women can't get physical until they're in love.

Your H is good at the excuses. So was my W. You need to get creative like I did. So that you'll have piece of proof that is irrefutible.

You can always hire a PI. When do you think they meet. Lunch time at work? After hours? Weekends? Days off?

You can also buy some gadgets to assist in evidence collection:

You can put a GPS device in his car. So we he says he went somewhere to run an errand that lasts way too long, you'll know that he really met the OW somewhere.

The best however is a voice activated recorder. FYI, these are technically illegal in some states. (just plead insanity) You can attach it to your home land line. You need a power source (better than batteries) and a working phone jack. Hopefully you have these in a place where your H won't see. Look behind large furniture ie couches amoirs, drssers etc.

Eventhough he may not call her from your house he may listen to his work v-mails at night or the weekend.

This is how I caught my W. I heard her have a conversation with her OM that didn't prove a PA but definitely proved an EA. Hindsight is 20/20 so learn from my mistake if you can. I confronted my W after hearing this first conversation. Had I had the patience to wait for several others I could have proven the PA and my search for the truth would have been alot shorter. Easier said than done though bc the first one will be devastating enough.

Some people have put these under car seats but I never tried that. I'd think that would be fairly risky and I'd think that with all the background noise ie car radio that the tape would quickly fill up.

You can also try to hack into his cell v-mail. I did this. Most people aren't that creative they'll use similar passwords ie bank pin numbers, birthdays, or just series of numbers like 1234, 1111 or 9876. I heard the OM's v-mail to my W. He was whining about missing her and other love talk. You can try the same thing with his work v-mail as well.

Also your H has been tipped by your questions and confrontations so he'll be extra careful. My W was. So be patient and Plan A your a$$ off. Don't ask any more questions or confront him until you have several voice recordings that you can play back to him if he starts the WS mantra of deny, deny , deny.

One more thing. As I said I wish I'd been more patient on the evidence collection. And again its difficult to be patient enough to record several conversations bc the first one will have you shaking. I wish I had taken the advice of all of the old timers 2 yrs ago when they advised me to go to the doctor and get on an anti-depressant. Had I done that it would have helped me get those second or third conversations.

It was my pride that said i could do this on my own. Don't need AD's. They're for crazy people. What I didn't realize was that all of my W's lies, like your H's, did turn me into an emotional mess.

Hope all of this helps you along on your journey.

cwmac

I was kind of hoping for a response about the letters. Is this typical affair words or has he actually found someone else to share his life with? Does anyone know other resources to find out if it is still going on before I confront her husband? HELP

The laptop, is it personal or business?

Does he use a home computer? I found my WH's yahoo password by downloading Spector Pro.

That way I had access to his yahoo account when he was not around and I found many e-mails between them.

Mine were planning on getting married. Sort of difficult to do when there is a current wife in the picture. Needless to say, the wedding was cancelled. It was supposed to be last Saturday. Give you an idea just how important of a day it was to him, he spent the day being initiated into a group that he wanted to belong to. No cell phones allowed. Later, I joined him.

The letters are typical WS fantasy. He has not found someone to spend his life with. He has found someone to have a fantasy affair with.

Start in Plan A. Your marriage can be saved.

He is too smart to use the home PC anymore and the laptop has gone untouched since I found the letters.

Don't put spyware on a business computer, unless you own the business. To do so, could possibly violate confidentiality rules and stuff.

Well as you probably read from all the posters here on MB. It is an Affair.

I would definitely tell the OW husband. He needs to know and I am sure that he is wondering as much as you are.

I wish I could tell you something to ease your pain. That letter that he wrote made me cringe! It hits home all to well. My H. affair started off with the same suspicions. I had my husbands cell passcode. He did not remember though. I heard her voice and the day after he slept with her; "Had a great time last night! I hope there is a next"!

I would definitely get some counseling for yourself. Because you are going to need help processing your feelings. Because I am not going to lie to you, it does get worse!! And you are going to need someone there face to face for you.

I will be here and I am sure the rest of the posters as well.

Affairs are difficult to handle!

Ali

[ March 30, 2004, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]

Is sounds like an A to me.

Remember patience is your friend. Give a person enough rope and they always hang themselves. When he feels comfortable that you are not looking, he will mess up.

I know, not easy to be patient.

Another question, for you, do you really need proof? Is suspicion enough for you to satisfy your mind?

I knew I had to had proof in my marriage. I knew if I did not, he would lie, with some really bad lies. He even tried the "violation of privacy". I point blank told him, "if I trusted him to be honest with me, I would not have had to gone to the measure I did to get to the truth."

I do want proof because I feel like such a fool as it is. What if I go to the OW H and he laughs at me? I already tried to contact her anonymously via email asking her for answers and she simply sent an email back of "Who is this?".

I always want to believe the best in people and I just find it so hard to understand how my husband of all people could do this to me. What are the chances that I'm wrong??? I don't want to accuse someone if I'm wrong - that would be ugly. This OW has been to my house and we have been out to dinner with them as a couple. Could it be just a fantasy. I want so badly to believe that, but deep down inside I don't. And I am not normally a suspicious person.

I'm trying to be patient, but I honestly don't know how to prove anything now. He has all the access through work. I know no passwords, believe me I have tried, and I cannot contact his credit card company without his approval.

Your H is having an affair. At first it is hard to believe. I didn't figure it out for 6 months, although all the signs were there.

Just to make you feel better believer this affair apparently started in August 2002 and continued up until November 2003 when I found the cell phone bills. That is why I feel so dumb!

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. My H lied for months to my face. Even in front of the MC, when I ask him twice in one night if he was involved with the OW he denied it. He lied and cheated and accused me of freaking out when I suggested something was going on.

Even when I caught him on his cell phone with her at Thanksgiving, at first he said it was his brother. When I pressed, he finally admitted it was the OW, but then he responded with lies to half of the questions I ask about having an affair with her.

I lost 17 pounds, lost hours of sleep and performed terribly at work because I was so distracted. That happened after he told me he didn't love me but while he was still denying that he was involved with OW.

I also checked his cell phone log and found he was calling her as soon as he got in the car in the morning and on his way home at night. She works for him so he could see her during the day, but had to be discreet.

It is truely amazing to me how someone that you thought was honest and moral, can be so deceitful and lying.

When the PA finally came out, H said he felt our marriage was over so that was why he became involved with her. At that point we hadn't even discussed having marital problems. We just had really bad communication skills and were conflict avoiders.

Good luck, I know it is hard. I am in my 4th month of knowing the truth. Three times he has broken it off with the OW to work on the marriage since then. I think we are working on it now, but I don't have access to his email, so who knows, the love notes could be going back and forth again. The PA could be on again.
Blessing to you.

I cannot believe all of the sad stories I am hearing - it makes me sick that people who supposedly love each other do this stuff. I don't treat people I hate like this.

My H is telling me that he knows he was wrong for shutting me out during that time, but he absolutely did not cheat on me. I guess I'm am luckier than some that he at least says that he loves me, although it may be meaningless. Why do the BS's have to be the ones that feel all of the pain and have to be the one to pick up the pieces. It seems so unfair!

Yep. It is unfair. But we have to realize that is the way it is.

It is hard to accept, but that is life.

SG!

That letter is not proof? The bills! You, like me back then are in such denial. I thought the same! My H. loves me! He wouldn't do it to me? I am just being paranoid! If you have doubts, and reading that e-mail? Wake up!
Affairs don't have to be physical. But in my opinion, he went that far!
OK, this is what you need to do. Don't let him know you are on to him. Act normal from now on! Don't act suspicious. Go about your life as you normally would. It is going to be tough. Let him think that you trust him. But in the mean time, do a lot of detective work. Need help? I am gooood!

I am not sure what other proof you need though. My husband lied to my face! You expect him to come right out and say yes! Look what he would have to loose? He is not on this earth right now! he is having his cake and eating it too!

Look as I said to my H. and someone on this board. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck then it is a duck! The facts are all in front of you! We all been through this and you are describing to us the classic signs of a WS! What else do you need? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I will help you!

Ali

By the way, picking up the pieces? Oh yeah, I said the same thing in the beginning.

Ali

This is bad, but steal his cell phone! Make him think he lost it! I have ideas how to get into his credit card statments!
You want to know what my H. did? He called up Sprint and told him that no female can have access to his phone info. The customer service guy didn't see that note because I called and I told him that I was paying for the bill etc, and that I just recently change my past code and forgot it, he gave it to me! But then he realized it and cut me off, called his cell phone left a message that a female was trying to get access and accidently gave me the passcode. Dumb & dumb. Leave a message after he gave me the code!!! Smart guy for ya! But I was thinking God was on my side. What are the chances of that happening? I immedately called up his phone and deleted it that message! That gave me a thrill! Sad to say!
But I received more and more love messages from her! Finally I had it, I confronted him!
But there are ways to get info. Hang out with him at his office. Go in there unannouced and bring a lunch and have picnin lunch in his office. When he goes to the bathroom, spill water and start snooping! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> . Or bring something leave it in the car and say; "Oh honey, I just got my monthy friend today and I didn't think I would need my bag up here could you go in the car and bring me my bag"?
OK nuff said on this.

Ali a little embarressed here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just a thought and based on incomplete information but in your H's loveletter to OW he says:

quote...
"I have thought about your comment about starting over....with someone that you really love"

And then he goes on to suggest that the two of them should start over with each other. But look carefully and you'll see that SHE hadn't said that - she appears to have just talked in general terms about starting over with someone - it's him that suggested that the someone could be him.

Now you haven't given the complete quote but this sounded to me like he's more committed to the relationship than she is.

Is it possible that she has either dumped him or backed off?

Just a thought.

Thanks for the suggestions Ali88 but I've already been told that family members coming to his office is seriously frowned upon and he could get into trouble. I've suggested meeting him for lunch too and the answer is no. Stealing his cell phone would not accomplish anything either because he no longer uses it and I have always had the capability of checking voice mail - he forgot I had the passcode. Also, the minute I confronted him on the cell phone bills all calls stopped. He has another phone if anything, but I can't find it. He probably keeps it at work during the week and hides it in his car or something on the weekend.

To answer the question about his/her commitment, let me give you the whole paragraph and one before it when he talks about a conversation they had called "playing the game". She apparently told him he was good at the game and this is his response:

"I know that I've told you this before, but I want to make it perfectly clear that I have never viewed what we have as a game nor have I "played the game" with you...not even in the beginning. Sure - I might have dropped hints or tested the water, but it was never a game...it is real. I just want you to understand that."

Then the next few paragraphs talke about love and life, then this...

"I have thought about your comment about starting over, and how I told you that everything else doesn't really matter when you have someone to share it with...someone that you really love...a feeling that Ihave never had until I found you. And I dream of starting over with you, of buying a house with you, of working in the yard with you, of watching our kids grow up together, of taking walks with you, vacations with you...of growing old with you, of being happy with you. All such seemingly simple things.

And, like you, it makes me sick that we can't share more together, that we go home to different lifes, different families, different spouses. I often wonder how happy you are with H, how you spend your time together. It bothers me. Even when you tell me about something trivial you do together, or something you talk about togehter, it hurts. And of course, I wonder about more - which hurts more.

then later...

I might be good at plying the game, and I feel like I thrive under pressure...but I am not too good at this OW. more....... Even though neither one of us wants to accept it, we need to come to a point where we are ok with being happy with what we do have....believe me, it is a constant struggle for me...and it sucks. It kills me OW, but I don't know what to do about it.

What do you think now? How can this possibly be a fantasy?

He came home all upset last night because I don't believe him. Everytime I read this letter it just hardens my feelings towards him more. What do you think now? I think I am a basket case.

SG,

The proof is right in front of your eyes in black and white....and only DENIAL can keep you from seeing it. Most of us never get as much evidence as you already have. His letters are EXPLICIT about making love to her and there is no question about this affair.

Let's talk about Plan A...because you need to do ALL the parts of it...or you are not in plan A.

Here are some guidelines:

Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)

Also....I'm going to give you an incredible link to an Infidelity Overview that was written by Penny Tupy at Save Your Marriage Central.

I urge you to call either her or one of the Harleys because so much of what you need to do right now will feel "wrong" and so having a good coach is essential.

Hugs and prayers!

I wish I can talk to you in person!

I am trying to figure out what it is really that you are asking??? There is definitely something going on with that OW? He is lying to your face by saying nothing is going on? Sure there is!

Funny, I wasn't allowed in husbands office either.
But there are so many ways to get information on him. Can you do another credit report? I know you can do it over the internet. Just get his SS# and you are set to go.

But the letter is proof enough! Don't you think? He is basically saying that you and her husband are big obsticles in the way! Did you show him that letter??? What man who is not having an A. would say something like that to a co-worker?

Do you have to catch them in the act??? I would definitely get the OW's husband envolved. I am not sure if that is the case that OW dumped him.

Go out to Barnes and Noble or Borders and purchase the book surviving an affair. It will give a lot of details to what your husband is going through. I have been through what you are going through. I like to give my situation as an example to help others see how WS act! If you go on the search way up at the top typre his number 26649. You will get an idea of what is going on in your marriage.
if you want to talk in person e-mail me at rraz@aol.com and I can call you or you can call me if you want!
I know exactly what you are going through!
Ali

Thanks star*fish and lovesaved! I believe that I am in PLan A and have been since November. I found this website right away and even in the throes of denial I tried working on this with as much respect to him as possible. I always tell him that I'm willing to listen to his explanations and that we can work through anything as long as we both have the truth. This was just with the phone bills. Although I admit to getting very upset when I found the emails and letters (about two weeks apart) I ultimately calmed down (after I called him a liar and threatened to leave) and began again telling him how much I love him and need him in my life (which makes me feel like a liar sometimes). I tell him I'm devasted, but no matter what, I want our marriage to work. He cries (literally) and just goes back to "why can't you believe me then". He is asking me to believe that these things mean nothing and I just can't do that. I finally told both of my sisters and they both say to call the OW H too.

One thing I have been very gently doing is requesting the old credit card statements. I told him that if he really wants to ease my mind that this would do that. If there is nothing funny on them I will never ask for them again and we can move on. He refuses to do that and he is no longer using that card apparently.

My worst fear is that it is over and he will never admit to anything. I don't know if I can live with that. Or worse yet, what if he tells me a year from now and I have to deal with this all over again. I just don't know where to go from here. Not to mention that he still works with this woman! What a mess.

Ali88 -Thanks so much for your support. I really need that right now. Maybe we can talk some time, but this is just too new to me right now and I'm at work (being soooo productive obviously)!

I don't know what I am asking for. As I said, I'm in an in-between state and I don't want to think these things about my H. How can he cry and lie to me so much. I wish I knew if it was over - I wish someone would tell me the truth! I tried contacting her anonymously because I hate confrontation and they have obviously gone to great lengths to keep this a secret. She simply wrote back "Who is this". They have obviously agreed to never admit anything.

As to your question about the letter. He absolutely refused to read the letter even after I begged him to and then to listen to what he was asking of me. He can't face the guilt! He knows he was wrong - he has even said that he screwed up - but he still insists there was NO AFFAIR! He cries and begs me to believe him and I am soooooo torn. Because I want to believe him, because I love him, but how can he even think those things about another woman!

It is amazing what our WS can do when they know they are wrong!

I understand where you are coming from at this time. Trying to make sense of this is overewhelming and for each question that is answered, 10 more come in.

I am still trying to understand why my husband had the A. He has always showed great morals and committment. He was disgusted when he found out that several of his co-workers had affairs. One had several ONS while they were on business.
His boss was sleeping with a client and he had to break a lot of rules and baby the client under his boss's directive. So I never thought in a million years that my very loving committed husband would ever hurt me to the extent that he did.

I was in such denial for so long. I couldn't believe it was happening. When I did confront him, he said what am I talking about? etc. Made me feel like an idiot. I knew better because his behavior was different. I wanted so hard to believe him but my head was telling me different.

Plan A. is great. I will admit, because my situation was a lot different from others, it didn't work on me too well. In your case, I think it will work a lot! Don't over do it. Show him the quilties that made the two of you fall in love. Right now you are extrememly vulnerable. So plan A. will be good for you.

You may have mixed feelings of your trust. The letter that he wrote to the OW, you know it is real but having a hard time believing it. I like to think BS's can be in a fog too. I was!!!
Reconsider contacting the OW. If you don't like confrontation, that may work to your advantage.
Get a list of questions and tell her that your husband was open to you and showed you the e-mail and you want her side and why it is still going on? Don't attack her. Even though it may be over with, still ask!

Ali
For some reason this thread is bringing back a lot of memories and triggers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I think this is why I am compelled to help you more!

By the way,

He is nuts! I am not trying to be mean but look at this; <blockquote>quote:<hr /> He cries (literally) and just goes back to "why can't you believe me then". He is asking me to believe that these things mean nothing and I just can't do that. <hr /></blockquote>You have the letter stating his love for her???
This is why you don't believe him. Please don't let him manipulate you. Because he is doing that!
He is trying to make you believe his lies. And because I see you have a great heart, you are torn over this his manipulation.
The letter is all the proof that he had felt something for this OW. So, try not to think with your heart and be logical about this. He is trying to get away with his adultress guilt!
Ali

Thanks again Ali - This board has been my only outlet these days. As you can probably tell, I'm just functioning so well!!! Ha! I hesitate on telling my sisters too much because they are going through some life changes of their own and don't need my worries. Both of them are pretty disgusted with my H right now and I worry how that may impact my future too - mostly because of my kids.

I know what you mean about your WS because my WS was always so disgusted with people that had A's too. He even accused me of having an A 5 years ago and was mad for a long, long time. In fact, I think that is the root of the problem. He never believed me and he felt justified. He had nothing to go on though. I had just started a new job and there was lots of turnover and lots of going away parties - I went to 4 and that was enough for him. There was no unaccounted for time, I didn't even have a cell then, I checked my work email at home and would have showed him if he asked. As a matter of fact after weeks of him hounding me about this one guy I finally quit talking to the guy, quit school (because he was in a class of mine), and never went to another going away party again. I to this day do not know why he thought I had an A, but he did and I did everything he asked to make him feel better. Why can't he do the same for me? I think he is just a control freak. Also, now he says that he KNOWS I didn't have an affair. Why does he know that now? My best guess is that I am unable to deceive anyone (but I'm learning how to now) and he knows I could never have carried on such a charade and not admit it. What do you think???

Sorry Ali - maybe that was a little too much info in the last reply of mine. Maybe his accusation has nothing to do with this, but somehow I think it does. I even wonder if he could have been cheating on me then. I have never given him cause to distrust me so why did he think that unless he was doing it??? See where my mind wanders these days. I think I have analyzed our entire married life (14 yrs) these last few months and tried to find anything to explain what is going on. I'm sorry that this brings up such painful memories for you.

Hello...I have been reading your comments and I am indentifying with you sooooo much! I too think that my husband is having an affair. I will not go into all of the reasons why now, but I have found all types of things that point to it, including a bottle of vanilla scented massage oil(unopened, in his car. He has lied to me repeatedly about where I think he has been, including a trip to a gambling casino, that he assured me he had never visited in his life! Our house went into forclosure because he never paid the payments for months, and I never knew until we got a letter from a company who "helps" people in foreclosure. Our accounts have always been separate, and our mortgage does not have my name on it. So, I never opened mail that didn't have my name on it. That was then. Now I do. But sometimes he gets his mail out of the box before I get home, and then tells me he didnt get any that day. Then, I find it in his car, when I look in there for clues. He just keeps denying that anything is going on. His cell phone bills are huge, and there are always calls to this coworker on there, he says are business related
Besides, he says that he doesn't have to have a reason for everything he does, even tho I keep trying to find one. He is in counseling and on meds for depression, altho he hasn't got his scrip filled again, and so has had no meds for about 2 weeks. He says he just doesnt feel anything, that he doesn't love himself and so he cant show love to me right now. I too am going crazy, but am trying to hang in there for our daughter's sakes. I have friends and family who help me alot, but it would be so nice to have someone to talk to who can relate...and give some advice to. Hope to talk to you, and others who might can help out, soon. justinie 97
me 46
h 47
daughter 16( step-daughter)
daughter 6

justinie97 - Sounds like we are in the same boat honey, except you may want to take some emergency steps to protect your financial position. You should not have to literally pay such a high price for what your spouse does wrong. Losing a house with kids involved is not a good situation to be in - I would contact a lawyer immediately to find out if there is anything you can do to protect yourself. Also, get your spouse back on the meds - they may be the real issue. Good Luck!

SG,

How stable was your M before your suspicions? That is interesting that he accused you of an A.
From reading this site and others and including every book that is available on affairs. There are times when the S. is suspicious of an A. they will inturn have one themselves "just to even up the score". I am not sure though that this is your husbands case!
What I am confused about is that there was a letter to the OW that you found, a lot of sneaking around, i.e. hiding statments, changing cells phones etc. Even reluctant to show you statments. I can only put this in one way, all the signs are there. There are men out there that leave no tracks and come home and spoil their wives act like nothing is going on and are having a little on the side as well. Sneaky type. Gather your thoughts together and look at the evidence.

Of course he is going to deny it. Why would he risk loosing a lot to you? Let us say that OW did dump him, you found out, then what? He would have no one! That is in his mind.

Think of the consequences if you did find out a year from now that he did in fact sleep with her?
Don't be silly! Read that letter and ask yourself well if he didn't cheat on me than why did he write this to her! As I mentioned before, there are such things as emotional affairs too! And both PA and EA can be just as devastating. My H. had both! I still feel as if was yesterday! The pain that I am still endeavoring is too much for me to handle. I look at him sometimes with such anger that I just want to slap him and tell him to go back to the OW. But his OW found herself another MM! And I guess now back with her H. How she can live with her self is beyond me?

If you can, go to the book store preferably Barnes and Noble get the book by Dr. Harley Surviving an Affair. If they have a Starbucks, go and get yourself something to drink and relax and read. Then think about what you had presented to MB. You have got to realize and come to some sort of conclusion about this to get help. Because if you don't you can be taken for a really heart break'in ride. It is not fair to your kids either. They will sense that you are uptight about something and all bad things will come out of it!

What I am guessing here is that you are not sure and you don't want to cause waves between your H. and yourself. But you and your kids are the ones who is going to get burned if you don't take the proper protocal??? Seriously, look how it is affecting your job!

Also, it is hard to admitt to yourself that your H. is having an A. Or did! It hurts worse than natural child birth! Been there!

Let me know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Ali

Ali88 - You seem confused by my last posts and I want to clarify. He accused me over 5 years ago of this and I thought we had resolved it. Like I said, I did everything HE wanted just to prove that I was not having an EA or a PA with a guy from work - and I wasn't. He had access to everything, I let him come to my office, my credit card statements went home, my emails were available, he called me on the phone at all times during the day, and I was always where I said I was. So why then is HE SOooo reluctant to give me what I am asking for (credit card statements) if there is nothing to hide - I did it for him. My point is that I had nothing to hide and I showed him everything to prove it. He is showing me nothing!!!!! The stuff I do have is because I found it on my own. I ordered the old cell phone bills that were not online, I found the email account on my own, I figured out that he had a balance on his credit card by pulling a credit report, and of course I found the letters on my own.

What I was getting at is maybe he is using his OLD suspicions to justify having an affair himself. I proved that I was not having an affair but he says that he felt that I was at the time. Why, I don't know, but he did. NOW he says that he KNOWS I was NOT having an affair. What changed?????

I guess this is just me justifying why I believe he had an affair even though he claims he didn't. He makes me feel like I'm betraying our marriage because I don't believe him so I justify it by thinking of all the reasons that I don't believe him. This is just an example of the jumbled mess my thoughts are.

[ March 31, 2004, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: SpouseGuess ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He makes me feel like I'm betraying our marriage because I don't believe him <hr /></blockquote>Typical response to a WS! He is turning it around on you so you look bad! I know been there, done that! And since he is being relunctant about giving you the info then there is something going on. You proved that you weren't having an affair. You were open and honest. You gave him all the info that he asked. You were accounted for when he called. But he?

So do you know that there was/is something going on? Are you convinced? Because I am not sure if you believe that there is something going on.

I think again you need to call the OW. Get it out in the open. Don't believe his lies anymore becasue he is using your vulnerable side to his advantage.

I know this is a hard time for you. But please, look deep into this.

The letter says it all!

Ali

Spouseguess, thanks for the quick response. I did not have the time to tell all of the story, but his parents did get us out of the immediate danger of losing the house. It cost them quite alot to get it out of foreclosure, but we are still in financial straights. He started a new job last April after 29 yrs in the same factory job. He now works selling timeshares in a nearby vacation community. He loves his job, and I think especially the freedom it offers. LOTS of time away from home and most of it is unaccounted for. I can only reach him by his cell, and then it will be a voice mail, that he returns when he can.
He is on straight commission, and so....no sell...no pay. When he went a few weeks with no pay, he did not tell me. And things got worse and worse from there. He does not want to give up this job, or at least not this type of job. and I really don't think he will quit this particular place. I work, and make resonably good money, but it is still very hard, if he goes without pay for any lenght of time.
I know how you feel about the lies. It is hard to believe that our husbands could do be so cold at times. I too, have tried to get him to say what is at the root of his depression, but he says he does not know. He always says there is no other woman involved, but there are always little things that just don't add up.
I will be thinking of you, and praying that both of us can be patient, and quietly watch and investigate for ourselves. If our husbands think we have stopped watching so closely, perhaps they will give themselves away.
Take care, and try not to confront him with anymore suspicions until you know you are ready.
And I will do the same.

Most definitely! Be patient! They will screw up!

But you have to still do a lot of detective work. I still say contact the OW. Watch what will happen. I bet the mistakes will oose out of the walls!
Ali

The problem I now have is that I think it is over. But based on what I read here it could flare up again since he still works with her. So now I guess I just need to wait and see.

He has removed his credit card from his wallet so now I wonder if he has a new one. I still cannot find evidence of a cell phone although I have frantically searched everywhere. I just wonder where this is going now.

I have no where to go anymore. He is lying. I know it and it gets harder every day to live with him knowing what I know. Especially now that he is trying so hard to pay attention to me. Probably just to get me off his back for a while.

You say confront the other woman, but what do I really have to confront her with. I don't have any actual emails from her - just a "picture" or cached copy of his inbox which only shows the subject line and sender. The "I miss you" is in the subject line but I have no idea of the contents. Plus they are 15 months old. The phone bills show only the calls he made to her, incoming calls do not show the number that is calling. The letters were written by him and he claims she knows nothing about them because they are a fantasy. So really what do I have as far as proof of her participation??? I can speculate all I want, but there is no hard evidence to back it up.

[ April 01, 2004, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: SpouseGuess ]

About trying to find a new cell phone? Easy! Go on line and fine a credit report. There are a lot of sites that will do this. It cost a little more than a standard report but it is well worth it. I think it only cost 40 bucks! If he has a new cell phone, new credit cards it will be under his credit report. Besides, would if something were to happen to him, would you want this ghostly credit cards bills come to haunt you????

Speak to the OW and say; "You know I am coming to terms that you are my husband are "close" I am trying to get some closure because it is eating me up and I really need your side of the story!" That way if the A. is still going on you are not saying to her you think it is over. If she denies that there was anything between her and your H., then you say; "Please stop, it is Ok (even though it is not) I understand, I saw both of your e-mails etc. and I just need closure". But don't give her any more information than you have too.

I was on the verge of doing that but my H. OW dumped him before I got a chance. I came so close of flying down there and busting him while he was in the A.! I had the plan all worked out. BUt something happened where, my sister wasn't able to go with me. Because I have kids, I needed someone to help me. I did speak to her and she was sooooo evil. She is also very ugly. I think I would have felt worse if she was better looking.
But anyway, you will hear it right from the horses mouth.

How close does he work with this women? I can't remember but have you ever met her? Does he like his job?

Even if the affair is over with, this will definitely ruin your marriage if it is not open up and dealt with soon. Just think about how much you curiousity is consumming you? Each day you question your trust with him.

First, do the credit report. All you need is his social security number. Don't tell him that you are doing such. By the way, you can get immediate results. Get that report before you decide to call. Don't tell your husbad if you find somethings new on there. You must do a lot of detective work if there is new stuff on there before the confrontation and speak to OW first.

Let me know,

Ali

Ali88 - Thanks for your support. I'm trying to sort my feelings out right now before I decide on a plan of action. Right now I just feel emotionally drained and it is all I can do to get through each day.

As for the credit report - he has another bank account somewhere and the first one didn't show it. So he is either paying with cash or he has a new credit card. Either way, I need to be patient for a while and let things die down a little. I don't want to behave irrationally so I'm just working through it a little at a time. Right now it is all I can do to be civil to the man.

Totally understand if that is what you need to do!

Can I ask are you involved with the finances? Because if so, you will be able to see how much he makes unless he hides his paychecks from you. You should see a discrepancy if he is putting cash into another checking account! A big gap!

Good luck sorting things out. I know it is a shock for you. But you need to do what is right for you!

Ali

Hi SG,
I won't pretend to be an expert on MB, I don't post much, but have been lurking here a LONG time and have found this site very helpful.
I am posting now, because your situation is very similar to mine. I have suspected that my H is having an A for almost exactly a year now. I have some "proof", but he denies, denies...and I doubt , doubt...him and myself. I also think that it is probably over, but maybe not. I also feel that I may never find the truth.

It will get better, I am much calmer now, and one important thing I have taken away from here is that I CANNOT change him, only ME. I cannot MAKE him do anything, i.e. admit anything, work on the marriage...
This is a tough thing for me. How do I/You go on believing that your H is lying? I wrestle with this question all the time. I still don't have the answer. This is harder for me to accept than an A itself. Honesty and Openness has always been my top EN and he knows this. We have always had trust issues, not about an A, but he has lied on major and minor issues in the past. I just keep trying to get across to him how important this all is to me. I stress to him reading the books that I have bought and WORKING on the M. I try to carry on conversations about these subjects and the trust without LBing. This is very difficult. Esp. when he always responds that the (non)trust, esp. about the possible/probable? A, is an LB itself. That sounds like where you are at. I just keep telling him that I have/had VALID reasons not to trust him - he SHOULD work with me on this. But again, I cannot make him do it.

In all honesty, I want a separation, but do not have balls to push this, without 100% truth about A. I know my H loves his family, esp. D and S. I do not have heart to separate him from kids unless I know what I am doing is the right thing for the right reason. I do believe that in the long run it would help our M.

I think I know what you want right now, and you cannot find it here. You want someone to tell you definitively that your H had/is having an A. You want someone to tell you what to do. I may be wrong, but that is what I want! IT is not here - it is up to you and him!

I would like to tell you my story too, but do not want to threadjack, will save that for another time. Let me just say that you DO seem to have enough proof. But I know how hard it is to relate all little pieces of a story, esp. online. I also know how hard it is to think (know?) that your H is looking you in the eye and lying, over and over. You WANT to believe him, even tho my H said that I WANT to believe that I am "right" and he is having an A, this is not true at all!

You will stop obsessing, days will get easier, focus on yourself as much as you are able. Do what you feel you have to do to get the truth, but try not to let it overtake your life.

I hope this helps, email me if you want Pleezmeu2@aol.com
- My name is Ramona and I can empathize with you.
I am so sorry that you are going through this! It was (still is) probably the hardest thing that I have faced, but of course I thank God (higher power) that my kids are healthy! - Knock Wood-

jlseagull

jlseagull - Oh God, it is like you are reading my mind and sharing my heart. You are so right! I just want to believe him and he is so desparate for me to believe him. I just can't understand how someone can lie like that because I could not do that.

You and Ali88 seem to have grasped it all and it makes me feel so much better. Yesterday was probably the worst day I have had and today is not much better but a little. That is why I have not posted much. I just don't know how much longer I can live with him like this. It is tearing me apart.

Today I took my D shopping and it was good for me to get out of the house, but this thing follows me like a cloud you know. My H is trying so hard to be good to me now and somehow that makes it harder to feel the way that I'm feeling. He claims that he won't show me the credit card statements because he wants me to trust him. I say how can I trust him if he doesn't show them to me. He is winning that battle and I don't even have any ammunition left to fight with. He cancelled the card. (I expect a response from Ali88 on this bit of info <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Thank you so much for reading my post and responding - it helps to know I'm not alone even if I feel that way sometimes. Please tell me your story! My email account got corrupted with a virus and I can't seem to access it anymore so here is another one CW1234_638@hotmail.com.

Ali88 - I think I will follow your suggestion about the credit report, but wait a month. It is obvious to me that he has backed off or ended it for now, but I know in my heart that he could still start again. He feels guilty - I can tell that, but that doesn't really mean anything does it???? You say your spouse felt no guilt and continued, right? When did his guilt really kick in?

I really wish I could think of a way to get his credit statements without his knowledge. I have his SS# of course, but they want to speak to a man. Now that he has cancelled it what can I do? As far as our finances, he has always taken care of those but I never see his expense reimbursement checks, EVER! In fact, he has travelled with this OW and I'm sure that it started on one of those ventures. He could travel with her in the future too. Nothing I can do about that.

Right now I simply feel used. He obviously cared about her deeply not so long ago. Those feelings just do NOT disappear. I know that and this is what I struggle with now. Is he pushing them back to fix our marriage and they will resurface when things are calmer? Did she dump him and I am the consolation prize? That is what else drives me crazy.

I told him when I lay next to him in bed all I can think about is what he said in those letters (although he will not refer to them as letters - they are part of his book/fantasy) and I wonder if he is thinking of her. I wonder how many times did he make love to me and pretend it was her (can I say that here?) Remember the statement "The act of watering the cactus is painful...meaningless...I hate it" That is what I think of every night before I go to sleep.

I am obsessing - he says that, but I think it is natural to wonder and be upset. My head tells me he is emotionally blackmailing me into believing him to make himself feel better and my heart wants to believe him. I hate feeling this way, but I hate seeing him cry too. Sorry for the rant, but it has been a very rough two days for me. I do feel a little calmer now.

Wow SG my heart hurts for you. I was wear you are several years ago. I did not have the evidence you have I just had behavioral changes. He was very honest about buying her gifts for birthday and Christmas. They spent time together that he was very honest about or so he says. Many many other things that he did that was soooo unlike him. He swears there was never anything there. My heart for several years screamed at me that he was innocent my head that he was very guilty. I battled that ugly monster for years. I still do not know for sure. However hubby is making changes himself. He is coming back to us I see it more and more. I'm not sure if I will ever know for sure. I had to decide what I was willing to do. Was I willing to live with not knowing and the change in hubby and trust him to the Lord or was it enough to leave. For me it was never enough to leave. I tried to get people to tell me for sure that he was having an affair but they didn't. I need the truth that is my number one EN and he knows it. Has always known it. If you believe in God then prayer, get the book the power of the praying wife. Look to God for the answers. I still don't have the answers but I have come to believe that God is working through me to bring my hubby closer to him. It hurts and is very hard but it can be done. I have a hard time giving myself totally back to my husband for fear of what if he does this again. But what if he doesn't I've wasted all that time. Pray for a clear head and a calm heart I was told to do this from somone on MB and it does help. I obsessed for two years over this. I'm not sure this helped or even makes sense

Here is something else I found that helped me. Hope its ok to put it here.

Partnership, Fall 2003

Back from the Brink: Massaging the Truth
My husband said his trips to massage parlors were innocent, but I wasn't buying it.
By K. Madison

When my husband, Bob, started working late, going in on weekends, and staying in Manhattan overnight to avoid his 90-minute commute, I became frustrated with how little time we had together. He was always too tired to do things with me, or to have sex. But since he'd recently switched careers and was making a new start, I tried not to complain too much—not even when Bob uncharacteristically started having a few drinks every night to relieve his tension. Instead, I filled my life with grad school and other interests.

But when I realized it had been more than two months since we'd had sex, I finally spoke up.

"Your life is out of control," I told him. "You need to spend more time at home. I can't take second place to your work any more." In reality, second place would have been a step up—I was barely on his map.

Stress made Bob angry much of the time. He often became defensive, used profanity, stormed out, and even threatened to leave our marriage. "Why bother coming home at all," he'd say, "when all I hear is your complaints and criticism?"

What had happened to the affectionate, jovial guy who'd led a Bible study early in our marriage?

I didn't see how things could get much worse, but one evening, after a nasty argument, Bob admitted he'd been "getting massages" to help him relax. He said he got them on nights he stayed in the city, after long days at work.

"Where?" I asked.

"At a massage place," Bob said.

"Without an appointment?"

"Yeah. I just walk in."

I knew legitimate establishments for sports or healing massage weren't generally open at night. And you needed an appointment.

"From women?" I asked.

"Yes," he said. "It would be weird getting a massage from a guy."

"What do they wear?"

"Normal stuff. They're just normal places."

"You've gone to more than one place?"

"Yes. What's the difference?"

"Do you go for something sexual?"

"Of course not," he stammered. "You're the only woman I've had sex with."

"What about oral sex or manual stimulation?" I choked out.

He hesitated before saying, "I don't do that."

He refused to talk about it any more.

More than massages
I was hurt and angry—and I didn't believe his massages were innocent. Since we weren't communicating and I realized our marriage was in trouble, I asked Bob to go with me to a Christian counselor. Reluctantly, he agreed.

I brought up the massages in our first session, but Bob wouldn't discuss it. I needed to talk about it, so we had separate sessions. While Bob quickly dropped his appointments, I kept going.

The counselor told me he'd never worked with a man who'd gone to a massage "parlor" simply for a legitimate massage. I'd known that in my gut. Otherwise, why would Bob have hidden it from me? Why was he so defensive about it?

Each time I brought it up, Bob said, "You're judging me. If I'm such a terrible person, so unworthy of you, why don't we just split up?" He continued to deny any sexual misconduct. But finally, he agreed to stop getting massages—"to make you feel better," he said.

Months later, I learned Bob had also been going to strip clubs. "It's just a thing men do," he insisted.

I'd heard of "lap dancing," where a mostly-unclad woman sits in a man's lap and gyrates, usually until the man experiences sexual release. I was repulsed by the idea of a strange woman pushing her bare breasts into my husband's face, bending over and performing all sorts of gymnastic feats before him.

How could my husband find these disgusting women enticing? How could he support such an industry with money that belonged to both of us? Why would he need to go to these places when he had me at home, longing to spend time with him, trying, unsuccessfully, to initiate sex? What was wrong with me?

While Bob denied having any physical contact with the dancers, I didn't believe him. And I was convinced the massages also involved sexual activity. As I saw it, he'd been unfaithful, multiple times, and with women who sold sex for money—prostitutes! I felt defiled, humiliated, betrayed, confused, and angry. Bob had lied to me, repeatedly. How could I ever trust him?

I couldn't talk about it with anyone besides my counselor, because I was so ashamed. I didn't feel free to discuss it with friends from church—or with my family, either. I felt utterly alone.

Unexpected help
But God is gracious. He knew I'd reached the limit of my strength. Just when I was considering what had always been unthinkable to me—divorce—God threw me a lifeline. After months of praying for my marriage, Bob agreed to try a new men's Bible study at church.

One night, he came home from the study and reported that someone in the group, an elder in our church, had confessed he was a former pornography addict. For years this man had led a double life—husband, father, upstanding church member—and regular at porn shops and peep shows.

He said part of conquering his addiction had been changing his route to work so he didn't pass the places that tempted him. He'd also found an accountability partner and confessed his weakness to his wife.

His wife was a Sunday school teacher, a leader in our church. Finally! I thought. Someone who will understand what I'm going through!

I contacted her and we began to pray together regularly. We prayed for healing between my husband and me, and freedom from temptation for both our husbands. I felt better with this unexpected support, but I couldn't rid myself of the terrible pictures in my head.

I imagined my husband at the strip clubs, what he'd seen and done. I thought often about divorce and tried to picture what my life would be like without him.

Then one day my prayer partner said something wise: "I was able to forgive my husband because it wasn't really about him hurting me. His actions were sin, rebellion against God. Yes, I was affected. But so was God. Because the Holy Spirit lives inside my husband, he took God with him into those sex shops. How sad God must have been at such disrespect.

"Instead of feeling anger," she continued, "I felt grief that my husband wasn't right with God, grief that sin had such a grip on him. I wanted more than anything for my husband to be right with God. That was my prayer. I discovered it's hard to stay angry at someone when you're praying sincerely for him."

She was right. I began to pray the prayers in Stormie Omartian's book, The Power of a Praying Wife. I began to use Scripture as prayers, inserting Bob's name into passages such as Ephesians 1:17-19: "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give Bob the Spirit of wisdom and revelation …" I also often read the story of Saul's transformation from persecutor to missionary in Acts 9.

I continued reading Scripture and praying for Bob and our marriage for several years. Then one morning, I read the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant, in which the king had forgiven all the servant's debts, but then the servant refused to forgive his own servant (Matthew 18:21-35). Finally it made sense to me. I was that unforgiving servant!

If God could forgive me the thousands of sins I'd committed in my lifetime, how could I withhold forgiveness from my husband in this one area?

True confessions
I was almost at peace, but not quite. I knew now I could forgive Bob. But he still had not admitted the full scope of his sin to me, or, as far as I knew, to God. I needed him to tell me the truth so I could forgive him completely. I trusted God would reward me for hanging in there through the bad times, heal our marriage, and hopefully, help me forget these ugly things had ever happened. So I approached Bob one more time.

More than five years had passed since Bob said he'd stopped frequenting strip clubs and massage parlors. I believed him because I'd seen him grow spiritually during that time. He'd stopped staying late in the city and going in on weekends. After several years in his men's Bible study, he'd recommitted his life to Christ. That recommitment helped strengthen our marriage. Bob didn't end every argument with, "Let's just split up" any more. That gave me confidence to try one more time to work out the issue.

I prayed for God to show me the right time to broach the painful old subject. I did it in writing this time, asking Bob to write his responses to my questions: Did the massages involve sexual activity? Was there physical contact with the dancers at the strip clubs?

He was hesitant to respond at first, fearful of how I might react. But I assured him I was committed to our marriage, and wanted to work this out so our relationship could grow stronger. I gave him plenty of space, and, after a day and a half, he responded with a letter of his own: Yes. He was ashamed and regretful, but he'd engaged in inappropriate sexual activity.

I'd asked God to prepare me for whatever Bob told me. And God was faithful. When Bob expressed his shame, guilt, and regret over hurting me and violating our relationship, he asked for forgiveness. My gratitude over God's forgiveness for me enabled me to forgive Bob for what had once felt too awful to forgive. And I was free. An enormous weight lifted from me.

It had taken lots of energy to remain hurt and angry all those years, to hold a grudge, to think about something so unpleasant over and over. It took surprisingly little on my part to forgive. God did the real work. I just had to make the decision.

I continue to ask God daily to keep watch over my husband and our marriage. I pray for strength and protection—for Bob and for our relationship. I pray for Bob's continued spiritual growth. And, finally, I feel a peace within my marriage

That is my biggest nightmare I think!??? What if I decide to work on my marriage and give up this little quest and he drops this bomb on me five years from now? I guess deep down inside I know that it will never go away, especially since he won't tell me, but I was hoping. What you are saying proves that. Thanks for the response.

Boy do I understand your thoughts on the what if I put it behind me and it all comes out later. But can we live with what ifs what kind of life is that? I had to look at everything and decide out of all my choices what could I live with. Which decision could I live with. In my heart I feel my hubby did not have an affair that the evidence against him is circumstantial and he realizes if he was on trial he would be convicted. But my head tells me that he did it was an affair whether an ea or pa. I do not know which one it is but I have come to believe that just by his actions alone he betrayed me by putting another females feelings ahead of mine. I have come to believe that God is working through me to reach my hubby and bring him to a closer relationship with him. I have seen some amazing changes and this has taken years. I lost a lot of years obsessing over what he was doing and if it was truly an affair or not. I missed a lot of living in my life and with my kids. I can't tell you what to do, no one could tell me its a process you have to go through. Only you can decide what you are willing to live with and what you are willing to do to help you through this. I am sooo sorry you are going through this but you can come out on the other side. Believe in yourself!!!! Take care of yourself!!!!

I feel bad about this situation. I've been married for 7 years, and now once again, suspect my husband of cheating/contemplating cheating. We have major marital issues, but I have clues in front of me like his defensiveness when confronted with questions, no call logs on the past 2 months' cell bills, telling me I'm insecure because I'm not meeting his needs. I have no solid proof like you do. I wish I did. I wish he would tell me he's cheating or at least thinking of it. I'm a snooper too, and Mama always told me if you hunting for stuff, don't get mad at what you find. I WANT to find it. I want him to tell me he's been unfaithful, and I'm not sure if I'd want to fix it. I had an emotional affair with a coworker about 4 years ago, so I know it can happen. My husband works for the telephone company, outdoors, so claims he has no time for cheating. I know it's not true. There's always time. He talks to female employees all the time on the phone, and I felt this could be a way for things to develop. He thought that was ridiculous, and said I sounded like I was telling him to quit his job because he talks to women. I never said anything like that. I simply said I can relate to how affairs can start, because I've been there. He is very defensive, doesn't like to address the subject. I haven't found any strange numbers or anything. There are just small clues. Sometimes I think I'm crazy, but my heart tells me I'm right.

[ April 06, 2004, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ali88:
 Sorry for the delay! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Please don't think I am ripping into you. I am not. I just don't want you to get hurt even more. As I am still reading, the suspicions are still there. Not knowing is worse because there is nothing to heal from. At least I know and I can start to heal. Very long process for me. Not even one tenth there. But at least there is a chance.

I know you want to sooo bad to trust your H. But who doesn't? Would we marry our spouse's if there was no trust at the alter? Some might, but I trusted my H. 100% and I think most of us posters did too!
I am glad you are still posting. It is great therapy. But think about the questions if things are not found out! I hope I didn't miss something on one of the post above!
OK, dinner is calling for me to make! How much would a personal chef cost?

Ali! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>

OK, I am going a little cooky here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Lost72 - I know you don't want to hear this, but I knew in my heart long before I had anything concrete. There were physical signs that I totally blew off because as Ali88 has pointed out over and over - you want to believe that your H loves you and you can trust him, but you can't always do that. For me the missing cell phone bills were the final straw that told me something was definitely going on. That may not seem like much to go on, but it is a start. Who is your H calling? The cell phone bill will show that. If you don't have a bill you can go online - that is how I found out they were going to my WS work address by the way. I know what you mean about the numbness (I read your other post) and unfortunately that is the easiest time - I was numb for 3 months, now the hurt is overwhelming. I'm so sorry that anyone ever has to feel this way!

Ali88 - I missed your posts! I know you were not ripping into me - just making sure I keep my head out of my butt. That is where it has been for a long time anyway. Right now I am simply working on how to improve my marriage, but still snoop (very hard to do when I'm so pissed at him). I think he knows about this site because I found a keylogger on my PC the other day. Let him find out what I think, but I have to be careful how I snoop now! He cancelled the credit card so there goes that! I would welcome any suggestions - email them to me at cw1234_638@hotmail.com - he does not have access to that and I only check it at work. Thanks for remembering me!

I actually called his cell phone carrier today to question why he wasn't getting detailed billing. Actually, I had to enter his number to even get a rep on the line (which I didn't want to do). Anyway, I was trying to be as general as possible, but the rep asked for the cell number, and a password. I told her I didn't know it (which I don't). So I asked a general question. Would a person have to request they no longer receive detailed billing, or could you just automatically stop it? She told me it depended on the plan, I told her I knew his plan, and she told me he was supposed to be getting it. She told me his password was his birthday, so I have her that. I kind of felt she was empathizing with me,like she knew where I was coming from. I asked her if there were any notes stating he requested to have the detailed billing stopped, she said no. Does that necessarily mean anything? She started it back up again, without my requesting. I know she felt me. I don't open his cell bills, but I have looked them over. Of course, I see "strange" numbers, but they're all strange. I don't know who he's talking to. I know he's real quick about turning the phone off when he's home, though. I don't turn my phone off until I go to bed. He has a lock function on his phone, and it can't be undone without a numeric code. I don't know what it is, even though I've tried to crack it several times.

I never trusted him 100%. I don't think it's possible to trust anyone that fully.

No Problem.

I just know what it feels like! I was in denial about my husband for so long. I had my friends and sister listen to the message from the OW from his cell phone. We were like OK? Maybe he just found a friend. Then I thought after a few more of them. Wait a minute! He told me about every friend and female friend that he made down there. Why is he keeping this one to himself? Then the untimate ice breaker that made me go on a man hunt message "I had a great time last night, I hope there will be a next" And the way she said it! She might as well had an orgasm while saying it!
The numbness eventually wears off! Then a whole lot of emotions just tidal wave in. And when it hits, it hits hard! My therapist says I am still in the anger stage! Which could go on for a very long time! So, what I mean is if there is suspicion going on...you will feel like you are holding your breath for a long time. Not healthy. And you will really start to resent your H. more because there is no trust! And you become paranoid!
But what I don't get is why your H.is being extra nice? Could it be guilt???? OK just a thought!

Ali

When did I say my husban's being extra nice? I don't remember saying that, but now that you mentioned it, he has been. He gave me money last week without me asking, and he's been giving me money whenever I ask for it. He never questions like he used to, just hands it over. I think this is strange. I think he has some motive behind it, then I start thinking maybe it's the paranoia. But, it creates suspicion if he's not nice. Little does he know, he's creating it by being nice (in that regard). You see, my husband is not affectionate, doesn't give of his time. He has literally told me at one point that he'd rather give his money than his time. When we had a fall out a couple of months ago, I basically told him we had to do everything differently, and the first thing he could say was he didn't want his social life to be affected. He still wanted to hang out with the guys, get drinks when he wanted, etc. That was another flag. Duh! Your hanging out with the guys/not spending quality time with your wife is what is contributing to the failure of your marriage!! Hello!! I didn't argue, though. But I heard what he said. I hear what he's saying when he says nothing at all. He didn't call me at all today, yet allowed himself to act an *** tonight, stormed out and left. He IS guilty of something, and it will eat him alive. Good. There's no need in asking questions about him being unfaithful anymore, especially if he's going to continue denying it.

[ April 06, 2004, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]

Actually Ali88 - I'm not really in denial, I tell myself things to make the pain go away for a while. It's difficult to describe how I'm feeling right now because it changes at the drop of a hat. I hate him, I love him, I want him to go away, I want him to stay, I'm afraid he will leave and on an on.... It is like you say, a whole tidal wave of emotions. Yesterday I actually felt great for about 4 hours then it hit again and I couldn't stop crying. Weird!

He has been great and is right there to hold me when I need it. He is scared too I think. I don't think he realized what the aftermath of this would do. And I still wonder if it is over. I feel like it must be because he is scared I will leave and he is definitely spending more time at home. He tells me he loves me all the time and always wants to hold my hand. I guess I really can't trust him, but he certainly wasn't doing those things when the affair was in full swing. Thoughts????

Well, it could be over and he is now regretting it and totally wants to keep it a secret. But I know how it goes with the ups and downs. It still happens with me. Like right now! H. came home and I feel nothing but anger towards him. And it makes me sick to feel this way. It makes me sick that I can't trust him.
You need a foundation for your marriage. What would you do if he came out it and said he had an affair? Would you really leave him? Like I said before, it is a lot easier to start with no trust and the truth rather than no trust and a lie?

Ali

I'd say this is pretty good evidence that your husband has been lying to you:

"I am a terrible faker and I hate it"

and the comments about making love indicate a Physical Affair. Those letters are awful - they gave me knots in my stomach just thinking about it - you poor thing. I wouldn't read them anymore if I were you - spend time and energy on things that make you feel good and happy.

I started Anti-D's right after I found out about my H's A and they have helped enormously. I didn't realize how bad I felt until I felt better.

Your H says he wants to work on your M, but he cannot do that if he still in the fog of the A. And in order to get out of that, he has to have No Contact with the OW.

I would definitely recommend counseling. Even if the A is over, whatever issues existed between you or with your H that led him to cheat are still there, which means another A, or a recurrence with the OW could happen at any time. If your H doesn't want to go to MC, you should at least consider IC for yourself, so that you have someone objective to talk to (other than the folks on this board).

[ April 09, 2004, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: Travelling Girl ]

Hi TG

The problem with the NC letter is that he works with her! And the problem with that is that he cannot quit and find another job just like that?

She needs to get him to be open with this. He continues to lie to her and that is what's eating her up! I know what you mean! That letter gave me pits in my stomache too. SG, put the letter away! By the way, did you ever show him the letter? And how did he weasel his way out of that? I think I asked you that question but can't recall. Just one of those days.

OK taking my computer to have it's brain fixed. I'll miss you guys. You all have a great Easter!
Or holiday! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Hopefully, I can get this back soon. At $50 bucks an hour, it better only take 15 minutes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ali <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ April 09, 2004, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]

Ali88 and Traveling Girl - I do try not to read the letters, but when my doubts about whether I should believe his lies come up I reread them just to refocus on how much he is capable of. He weaseled his way out of the letters by not reading them of course and told me they were a fantasy at first then an idea for a possible book. I'm not allowed to refer to them as letters.

Of course I know he had a PA - how could he make that stuff up?! And the lies are eating me alive. I'd say that is what will eventually kill our M. Like my sisters said "Why can't he be a man and just admit it???" I do kind of think it is still going on - why end it now? If he can convince me it didn't really happen so much the better. He knows I'm watching now though so he is verrry careful. I just don't know how to catch him. My sisters said that I should hire a PI, but he controls the finances so how could I?

You have figured out he is having an A. So don't worry about catching him, and stay firmly in Plan A.

I wasted so much time trying to prove what I knew. WH just continued to lie and get sneakier. He had an explanation for everything, even motel bills from during the day when he was supposed to be at work.

So since you need to do a good Plan A, start it and don't obsess. The truth will come out, don't worry.

I am so sorry for you. What you are going through is pure hell.

I don’t come here much any more. I spend most of the time when I do visit lurking on the recovery board. I just want to tell you it will get better. But, I was where you are for almost four months last year. It may get even worse for a while, but it does get better.

My WW had a ten-year affair with a co-worker. It even survived the first time I found out about it five years ago. She lied her way through MC back then to keep it alive. She only stopped seeing the OM while I was suspicious. The A started right back up as soon as I felt safe again.

I put it behind me back then but, bam, five years later it comes back worse than before. Half my marriage turned out to be based on lies. I just could not accept it. I denied the evidence and made excuses for her. I lost 30 pounds. Work suffered. I went on antidepressant meds, (which I recommend, they do help smooth out the roller coaster.)

When I found out again last year it had never ended after all (through an email like yours, that hurt so bad I still cannot read it again), she denied, denied, denied. For three months, she looked me in the eye more than once and said, “I love you and I will never lie to you,” and then lied through her teeth to me. She even cried genuine tears while telling me blatant lies. Sound familiar? As you wrote, suspecting the truth just makes the lies even more hurtful.

The ancient Sumerians had a concept of hell where the gods would leave you with the knowledge that you had offended them but remove all knowledge of what you had done. You knew you were in hell for doing something really bad but no longer knew what it was. That is what I felt all those months. I was in hell and didn’t know why.

In one of your posts you said, “What a mess.” Amazing, I used that line a dozen times in my journal. BTW, you might consider starting a journal. It helps a lot. Put most of the LB’s in there.

I highly recommend IC. My councilor finally said, “Trust your gut. You have the absolute right, and even the obligation to you and to her, to decide if you can live with her not knowing the truth. If not, tell her you need the whole truth or you will have to leave the relationship.” Saying this to my wife was one of the most difficult things I have ever done (the other was confronting the OM after she admitted their A). One week later she finally confessed and moved out for three months.

Be prepared for a lot of anger on his part. The WS often tries to manipulate your emotions. I can’t count the number of times my W said she was giving up, contacting a lawyer, it was my entire fault, I’m too controlling, she can’t even have friends, she cannot do all the counseling any more, she’s just not a good wife, and on and on. It is part of their internal denials and defenses. Transferring guilt they cannot yet handle.

If you can convince your H, you should attend a Retrouvaille retreat weekend http://www.retrouvaille.org/ . That is what finally started our recovery. We use the communication skills learned there to improve our marriage every day. Also, WW is now in IC, which is helping her a lot. She even sent an apology/NC letter to OM’s wife. We are doing better than I ever expected we could.

I have a question about H controlling your finances. What state do you live in? If in a community property state, he cannot do this. You have legal rights here that seem to be getting ignored in your marriage. Don’t be a doormat. Talk to a lawyer yourself. Then tell your H. You may be amazed at his sudden turnaround when you show some spine.

I also turned it all over to God. That helped more than anything. Trust me in this.

I am praying for you, your family and your H.

T

Yes, Thos is right, a journal is a good idea. I also started one right after I found out about my H's A, and it has helped a lot to be able to write things down that I would have said to him in the past, and get them out of my system. At our MC session this week I learned that he felt smothered by me in the past, because he felt like I depended on him to be my best friend and meet all of my emotional needs, and overloaded him with information every day. Now it all goes into the Journal and I don't say things I might regret later, and he feels like he can breathe. I just heard this for the first time and we've been married 11 years.
How long have you been married, and do you have children? Is there anyone you can confide in about the A - friend, relative, or minister/priest/pastor?
Hope your Easter was OK.

Another good reason to journal is to help you see through your own fog. The BS is in a fog of emotions, too. A journal can give you hope over time. I look back in my journal and can see that things are actually improving for me, independent of our M. Entries tend to be shorter, futher apart and generally more positve (with some exceptions) now. I would not be able to detect my own improved well-being if I did not have a record of where I have been when I could barely think straight.

Thanks for all the posts over the weekend. I appreciate all of the advice and words of support. Quite frankly though, I am growing weary of all the lies and dishonesty from him. I don't believe that he has ended it and there is not room in my marriage for a third person. I'm pretty much thinking about ways to free myself from this situation - meaning he may have to leave. All I see on this website is pain and heartache from all the BS's even after the affair ends and I can't help but think is it worth it? He is the one that went looking for someone else, he is the one who lied and deceived me, he is the one spending joint assets on someone else, he is the one depriving his children of their father, he is the one who destroyed our specialness, and I'm not sure I want him anymore. Why would anyone in their right mind want to be with someone so selfish and so dishonest. I love him, but I don't know if I can ever forgive him for putting me through all of this.

SG -
You are right - you ARE the injured party. One of the reasons I didn't throw my H out (aside from the fact that we have 3 kids) is that I kept reading that Divorcing seems like an easy out, but in the long run is far more painful than working through your marital issues.
Those issues just tend to turn up in the next R.
Why don't you take a look at the BB at the Key Bridge Discussion website (Emily Brown) - I found many inspirational stories there from BS's who said their marriages now are better than they ever were prior to the A.
In MC I have been learning that I did many things that angered or hurt my H without meaning to, and that led him to believe that he was entitled to love elsewhere. I am not excusing him, I am just saying that I thought it was all his fault in the beginning, and now I am realizing that I also contributed to problems in our R (even though I thought things were fine).
Try to read about A's and get to see a counselor before you make a rash decision.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />All I see on this website is pain and heartache from all the BS's even after the affair ends and I can't help but think is it worth it? <hr /></blockquote>SpouseGuess - I, and most of us, can relate to what you are expressing in this quote. There IS a lot of pain and heartache associated with adultery and there is no escaping it.

Having said that, we also often bring on more pain than we need to, especially when we are very vulnerable and are not yet really into recovery of our marriage.

When you are in recovery I would strongly suggest that you move your posting to the Recovery Forum and DO NOT visit or read anything on the Just Found Out or General Questions II forums. The reason is that they are both awash with emotions and you will tend to internalize other's pain and heartache. That drags you down and leads to doubting and excessive fear about the future. Recovery alone takes and average of two years, so there is no "quick fix."

But let me also reassure you that many have made it through recovery and, in looking back at all the hard work, pain, heartache, and fear, have said that "yes, it was worth it."

It is even "worth it" to those who tried but failed and the marriage ended in a divorce. The reason is simple. Even in those cases the one who "tried" knows that they did their best. We all know that we cannot control someone else's actions or decisions, but we can control our own.

This terrible time may be "helped" if you think of it along the lines of the marriage vow "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health." This is definitely the "worst" of times and the mental idiocy associated with an affair can be thought of as a mental "sickness." To begin the recovery process it takes ONE of the spouses to stay and "fight for the other one even when things look dire, perhaps even hopeless." Were it a physical health problem most of us would fight and support and even help with all of our spouse's bodily function needs because we love them....even if they are temporarily incapable of returning that love. We do it out of honor for ourselves, our commitments, our love and respect for the sanctity of marriage.

I hope that helps. I have not read this entire thread, but I got the impression that you now believe that your husband is having an affair. I also got the impression that he is denying it and that you have not confronted him with undeniable proof. That must occur at some point before you can even begin the process of recovering your marriage. Print out the emails, etc., whatever proof you have and confront him with it when you feel it is time to stop the lies and you are ready to deal with the hard problems that lay ahead.

It IS hard, but it must be done. Just as it is hard and painful to set a broken bone and that it takes time to recover, the same is true for this problem. It must first be exposed and recognized by all parties. Affairs are very hard to sustain in the "light of day." They thrive in the dark and in secret.

But, and this is a big "but," you have to decide that your love for him overrides the pain and hard times and that you are willing to commit to the long haul, not some "quick fix."

Even now, 2 years after our d-day, I rarely visit the JFO forum for much the same reason you were talking about. The emotional pain is at it's most intense at the beginning and most of us have a "caring bone" in our bodies and we can easily overidentify with the pain. That, too, is detrimental to our own recovery.

God bless.