2 all the thiefs out there who are stealing away a father or mother, husband or wife

http://www.drphil.com/advice/advice...ationships/Sex&subsection=Infidelity

I thought about sending this article to my WH's homewrecker when it first came out but I am sure it would be deleted right away.She wouldn't want to know what a homewrecker she is being or that she may be being used.They are both in lala land and immune to any education. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Anyway,I highly doubt any/many OP come here BUT,you should have sent it over to the TOW site! They can use it more than anyone here.

O

Is there really a site for them?

I cringed as I opened this... thinking that there was an attack here. I'm glad that I read it, though... it's not an attack - it's simply the truth. I've come to appreciate the plain, simple truth.

CW

Oh yes, they have a site where they all lie to each other about how wonderful having an affair is. They cheer each other on and live in their fantasy world egging each other on until the bubble bursts and then they actually do support each other as they figure out what they knew to begin with, that affairs are just plain wrong and can't lead to any good. They bash us there. They try to convince each other that what they have with their MM is real. They believe that the wife isn't treating her man correctly or he wouldn't have strayed. Then they figure out that really the MM has the problems in most cases. I am generalizing here. Reality-most men go home to the wife when all is said and done unless she doesn't want him anymore. Do not go there and start a board war. It's their space and they need a place to hide and chat with OW who are in the same fantasy boat.

Please post the web address - I'd like to see what OP thinks of me the BS..and how they justify their actions against me..

Thanks

The "thief" is not stealing anyone. The ws makes a CONSCIOUS decision to leave and continue the affair, regardless of their status as a husband/wife/father/mother.
To pretend (or blame) that the problem is solely the op is not a good thing to do.

The OP is not a theif.

You cannot steal what is freely given.

I've watched Dr. Phil several times but I cannot say that I agree with alot of things that he says.

7 times out of 10 the OW isn't looking to take the WS away from the BS. They are happy getting what they get out of the A.

The only person that is robbed in an A is the BS and the children involved. They are robbed of a future that they had planned, robbed of self esteem, robbed of an identity.

I'm just facinated by the posts on this board, especially facinated at the fact that you wives stay with your husbands (or vice versa) after finding out that they have cheated - sometimes not once or twice, but several times. Did you know that adultry is the only ground that the Bible says a couple should divorced?

Anyway, this is my take on all of this: I believe it is all a game, and the wives feels that when the cheater stays he stays because he loves her so bad - NOT. He stays because it is what he knows best - you, history (years involved), the children, assets probably tied up, and simply because he is a coward. The wife takes him back because she's realized that someone else wants him, he's attracted another woman, and it is a sure bet that if he leaves he would probably not be alone for long - but she would be.

I was married for 16 years before I left my husband - not for another man (or that he cheated), simply because I did not love him anymore - I did not like him anymore - he can't understand why to this day. We have two beautiful children. Friends were telling me to go to a marriage councelor - why? to convince me that I still love him? I didn't think so.

Everthing does not have to be swell all the time. Split up your belongings and move on. Why should anyone live in misery or cause someone else grief? If you love me so much, why have me stay with you only to bring up all the time that I cheated on you. The crying, nagging, guily feeling is all so wrong.

My sister, who is 60 now has been married 3 times. All her husbands were married before - yes, she met them while they were married. They left their wives and married her. Her 1st husband was a much older one and he died when my nephew was 5 years old - he was diabetic. Her 2nd she divorced after he was becoming very possesive - they still remain very good friends. Her 3rd she is still married to.

All three men I commend, these are not coward men, they see something they want and went for it - my sister. Their ex-wives - all recovered, eventually. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hell hath no fury than a woman scorned <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

hhezat,
Did you know that adultry is the only ground that the Bible says a couple should divorced
It doesn't say you SHOULD get divorced.
IT says adultery is the only reason you CAN divorce, but you don't HAVE to divorce.

the wives feels that when the cheater stays he stays because he loves her so bad
Uh, where did you get that from? Can't say I've seen it anywhere here.

[ July 13, 2004, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Anyway, this is my take on all of this: I believe it is all a game, and the wives feels that when the cheater stays he stays because he loves her so bad - NOT. He stays because it is what he knows best - you, history (years involved), the children, assets probably tied up, and simply because he is a coward <hr /></blockquote>Maybe you haven't noticed.....but this is a MARRIAGE BUILDING web site.

You sound like a very very angry OW.

I'm wondering why you even bothered to post. Do you think you are enlightening us to something that we do not know? I highly doubt that since you say that you've never been in a situation like this. So you wouldn't know.

You must not have traveled through this forum much and read much either I'm assuming.

Most of the time when the WS goes back to the BS they don't feel that they are in love with the BS anymore. The reason they come back or stay is because they are willing to get those feelings back. And YES...most of the time it works.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> All three men I commend, these are not coward men, they see something they want and went for it - my sister. Their ex-wives - all recovered, eventually. <hr /></blockquote>Give me a break. That's like telling me if I see a child in the grocery store that behaves better than my child it's okay to abandon my child and take the one that acts better.

Maybe you need to go elsewhere to dole out your opinions. It's not needed here.

The people on this site are here to save their marriages. Your opinion isn't going to dissuade anyone here.

IMHO....it's more cowardly to leave a marriage without trying to make it work than to stay and try make it work.

[ July 13, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]

Give me a break. That's like telling me if I see a child in the grocery store that behaves better than my child it's okay to abandon my child and take the one that acts better.

Most of the time when the WS goes back to the BS they don't feel that they are in love with the BS anymore. The reason they come back or stay is because they are willing to get those feelings back. And YES...most of the time it works.

The feelings never come back - you keep the men there to torture them to remind them about what they did at every argument you have.

If there is no trust ever,how can it work. You wives don't trust the husbands anymore. Everything they now do you scrutinize, no matter how slight. If they stay too long in the bathroom, you wonder, if someone calls and hang up, you wonder, if they have to stay and work late, you wonder. These are normal things that some people encounter every day - yet you stay and torture the men and live in misery - give me a break.

The people on this site are here to save their marriages. Your opinion isn't going to dissuade anyone here.

IMHO....it's more cowardly to leave a marriage without trying to make it work than to stay and try make it work.

Ms. Priss - absolutely garbage! I am not at liberty to convince you or anyone else to stay - pathetic. You are all like drug addicts, they too don't like anyone telling them to get off drugs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Chris-CA123: ok, ok, lets be picky here - the Bible said it is the only REASON one should get a divorce - THEN WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO FOLLOW WHAT THE BIBLE SAY? Why do otherwise - if not on the ground of adultry, then what? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

This is not the only website about wrecked marriages - and judging from most of the scorned women (the wives) responses, I came to that conclusion - "oh, he told me he loves me and he has no feelings for the OM. She forced my husband to have sex with her because he was depressed". Yeah, right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

ive been married 14 years, i had affair 1 with a creep who i lent money to and wouldnt pay me back. so i was so upset i told my husband 8 months after i tried hard to let it go but i wanted my money back... i got my monry back but also lost much more. i hurt my husband very much.he told me he would forgive me but he lied while i felt victimized by affair 1. my husband was having his ownaffairs with 3 woman all the time telling me what a bad person i was for what i did he says he did it to teach me a lesson now i fear im only here for our kids and convience

Ms. Priss & Chris-CA123

My case in point. What disfunction? Who would want to live like this? A sick person for sure. Him sleeping with every mary, jane and louise, she with [censored], tom and harry - all the STD's going around.

I would never, NEVER subject myself to such degradation. Once he cheated, he's gone baby! I am much too damn attractive.

hezat,
Kind of curious why you responded but didn't even read what I wrote?
the Bible said it is the only REASON one should get a divorce - THEN WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO FOLLOW WHAT THE BIBLE SAY?
For one reason, the Bible doesn't even suggest one SHOULD get a divorce because of adultery.

It says you CAN divorce because of adultery.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
"should
Used to express obligation or duty: You should send her a note.
Used to express probability or expectation: They should arrive at noon.

[ July 13, 2004, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Chris-CA123
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It says you CAN divorce because of adultery. <hr /></blockquote>So why don't you?

Chris-CA123
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It says you CAN divorce because of adultery. <hr /></blockquote>So why don't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The feelings never come back - you keep the men there to torture them to remind them about what they did at every argument you have.<hr /></blockquote>Sorry....each person only has control of themselves. You can't make someone do something they don't want to do. The BS doesn't KEEP anyone anywhere. The WS DECIDES what they are or aren't going to on their own.

AGAIN....you sound like a very angry OW.

As for arguments and torture in reminding them what they have done. Well....they did to it....but it's not usually the BS that is reminding them...it's usually thier own guilt that reminds them of what they've done. Once the WS and BS start working on the marriage.....the affair doesn't usually factor in since it's part of the past and the past is where it should stay.

If you haven't gone through it....you will never know.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If there is no trust ever,how can it work. You wives don't trust the husbands anymore. <hr /></blockquote>It's like respect....it's earned.
Why should the BS trust the WS after what they have done? The only thing that matters is that the BS is WILLING to trust again.
I use the BS and WS term because there are just as many wives that cheat as there are men.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />verything they now do you scrutinize, no matter how slight. If they stay too long in the bathroom, you wonder, if someone calls and hang up, you wonder, if they have to stay and work late, you wonder. These are normal things that some people encounter every day - yet you stay and torture the men and live in misery - give me a break. <hr /></blockquote>If the WS stays....they usually know what they are in for.....boo frickin' hoo if you think that is torture. Why should you care anyway if you've never been in a situation like that. What do you think the BS went through when they found out about the affair in the first place. It wasn't exactly like going on a trip to Disney World.

Sorry.....your version of what goes on is a little twisted to me. I've lived it...you haven't.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Ms. Priss - absolutely garbage! I am not at liberty to convince you or anyone else to stay - pathetic. You are all like drug addicts, they too don't like anyone telling them to get off drugs. <hr /></blockquote>Sorry....you got me wrong too.

I didn't stay. My H had an affair and I was the one that was filing for divorce. My H begged me to come back. Sorry for putting a big huge whole in your theory.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I would never, NEVER subject myself to such degradation. Once he cheated, he's gone baby! I am much too damn attractive. <hr /></blockquote>Also sorry that you have never experienced the kind of love for someone that you make you jump through anything to make it work. Must be hard to only love yourself.

Never say never.

EVERY person on this board has said....if they cheat...their gone at one time or another before it happened to them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> This is not the only website about wrecked marriages - and judging from most of the scorned women (the wives) responses, I came to that conclusion - "oh, he told me he loves me and he has no feelings for the OM. She forced my husband to have sex with her because he was depressed". Yeah, right. <hr /></blockquote>Why are you focusing on the wives when there are just as many men here that have been betrayed?

Again....sounding like an angry OW that didn't get her way.

And please.....do enlighten me on a post where just one BS says that the OP forced their MM/MW to have sex with them? I've been here for 3 years now and have never seen a post like that.

Your opinion and theories won't wash here. There is NOTHING to support them.

By the way....I'm done with this.

People that live in glass houses....shouldn't throw stones.

[ July 13, 2004, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]

hezat:

I've reported your posts 2 the moderators. I hope that you are just a hurt former BS or WS grasping for solutions 2 your troubles, but your posts don't make it look that way.

Please go 2 the home page and read the articles - the reasons for this forum's existence. I suspect you'd be better served elsewhere, but I'd be delighted 2 be wrong about that.

best,
-ol' 2long

Please, for those that are on this hot topic at the moment, please read my last topic, On the way down, I really need some help and if you are dedicated to saving marriages, which I think is very honorable, tell me how to save mine by telling me from your experience what helps you.

I did.
That and abandonment.

2Long - I have reported you also.

See what I am talking about - if they cheat, you cheat also, tit for tat (I'm a firm believer in that).

Ms. Priss,

Your life seems pretty much over. I have not been in your situation, but I am not an idiot. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that if you have a toothache that probably it is time to see a dentist.

Why I say your life is over? Here it is:

You've know your husband for 16 years, married 13, have three children, with the oldest being 13 Big problem here - shot gun wedding. If you didn't got pregnant he wouldn't have married you. I knew my ex-husband when I was 18, got married at 21 (I was a VIRGIN), divorced him at 37, have not been sexually active with another man since.

D-Day 2001 Your marriage was a timebomb readying to explode. After seven years of marriage I am sure your husband had no desire to sleep with you anymore - but you thought you had him trapped, after all, you have his three children - sure reason for him to stay, right? WRONG. If he had come to you and say "sweetheart, I have no feeling for you anymore I've found someone else that is more enticing, one that I could eventually love, please give me a divorce". Guess what, you would still be on this board, posting and wanting people to tell you how stupid your husband is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I am not the enemy here. i am not a OW. Just a woman with a lot of pride. Got to set an example for my daughter.

Hezat - you are not a proud woman setting a good example. I feel very sad for you.

You are angry and mean and something awful is hiding inside you to make you want to hurt people who have done nothing to you and have already suffered enough.

People who like themselves are kind. People who are proud usually are helpful. I have cheated and been cheated on. Both when something awful was happening in our lifes and you were never there and could not tell me what to do or what I should of done.

Just as I do not know what in life has made you so bitter and mean spirited. You also speak in absolutes (never, always, everyone) and that usually smacks of desperation to make a case that you don't have any grounds for.

I truly hope that you face your own demons and are someday a happy contributing member of society and learn to never deprive someone of hope - it may be all they have.

Ladies, Ladies you are being to kind towards this so called proud woman. Here let me tell it like it is...

Hezat why are you fronting, we all know you are just a BOW who is mad at the fact that her MM did not leave his W. It must really suck being second banana huh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Got to set an example for my daughter.
Hmmm? Then why aren't you doing that?

It's okay to leave a marriage, "just because".
simply because I did not love him anymore

If it gets a bit rough, just leave.
Everthing (sic) does not have to be swell all the time. Split up your belongings and move on.

"Payback" is not only okay, it is something that SHOULD be done.
if they cheat, you cheat also, tit for tat (I'm a firm believer in that).

Hell hath no fury than a woman scorned
Yeah, definitely sounds like a scorned ow.

hezat:

"2Long - I have reported you also."

You're kidding, right? Cool. ...About WHAT???

"See what I am talking about - if they cheat, you cheat also, tit for tat (I'm a firm believer in that)."

No, I don't see what you're talking about. I posted some of these 2 Betrayed Husband, but these 2uotes are more appropriate (and I will ad, KIND) responses 2 your 2uote above:

Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive & Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve

"The problem with revenge is that it never gets what it wants; it never evens the score. Fairness never comes. The chain reaction set off by every act of vengeance always takes its unhindered course. It ties both the injured and the injurer to an escalator of pain...Why do family feuds go on and on?...the reason is simple: no two people, no two families, ever weigh pain on the same scale."

"Gandhi was right: if we all live by 'an eye for an eye' the whole world will be blind. The only way out is forgiveness."

Lance Morrow - (article, Time Magazine, January 9, 1984)

"Not to forgive is to be imprisoned by the past, by old grievances that do not permit life to proceed with new business. Not to forgive is to yield oneself to another's control...to be locked into a sequence of act and response, of outrage and revenge, tit for tat, escalating always. The present is endlessly overwhelmed and devoured by the past. Forgiveness frees the forgiver. It extracts the forgiver from someone else's nightmare."

hang limp,
-ol' 2long

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You've know your husband for 16 years, married 13, have three children, with the oldest being 13 Big problem here - shot gun wedding. If you didn't got pregnant he wouldn't have married you. <hr /></blockquote>Sorry to burst your bubble again....but there was no shot gun wedding. My H asked me to marry him BEFORE I got pregnant. It's a custom in his family to be engaged for at least a year before you get married. His parents asked us to uphold that so we did. I just happened to get pregnant within that time. We got married 18 months to the day after we got engaged. In case you didn't know...it takes only 9 months to have a baby. We would have gotten married pregnant or not.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> D-Day 2001 Your marriage was a timebomb readying to explode. After seven years of marriage I am sure your husband had no desire to sleep with you anymore - but you thought you had him trapped, after all, you have his three children - sure reason for him to stay, right? WRONG. If he had come to you and say "sweetheart, I have no feeling for you anymore I've found someone else that is more enticing, one that I could eventually love, please give me a divorce". Guess what, you would still be on this board, posting and wanting people to tell you how stupid your husband is. <hr /></blockquote>I think you need to learn how to count. It was 10 years into our marriage....not 7.

My husband also NEVER lost his desire to sleep with me....so sorry to be poking so many holes in your theories. He actually wanted to have sex with me when he was with the OW....I wouldn't let it happen.

There was no staying for the children. I wouldn't put up with that.

Actually....my H isn't the one that filed....I did. If you had actually taken the time to read a complete post you'd see that my H is the one that begged me to come back to him. Not the other way around.

You're preachin' to the wrong choir lady. You are not going to find one person here who is going to agree with you.

As for setting a good example for your daughter....well...instead of spending your time on here trying to enlighten everyone, to your inside the box view of the BS, why aren't you spending it with your daughter setting that good example?

This IS my last post. I have more important things to spend my time on.

I feel sorry for your daughter.

[ July 13, 2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]

hmmmm....this thread is good reason why I seldom visit the JFO forum. Too much out of control emotions and faulty reasoning, or self-serving falacious rationalizations.

To wit (as an example):

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The OP is not a theif.

You cannot steal what is freely given.
<hr /></blockquote>Okay, so applying this "logic" it would be "okay" and "not stealing" for someone to hold up a bank provided that the Teller (entrusted to protect both the deposits that belong to him and to others that the bank has "covenanted" with) freely gives it to him.

Open the prisons! Let them all out! It was "freely given" to them even though it belonged to someone else and was NOT theirs to "freely give."

And while we are at it, let's legalize Prostitution as it's "freely given" (for a fee).

In marriage, your body is no longer "yours", but it belongs to your spouse.

The delusions run rampant in the justification of sin. "If it feels good, do it!" Hedonistic justification of self-indulgence.

Secular thought run amok. There are no rules other than what I emotionally think I want. Anarchy = doing whatever I want without regard to anyone else. Everyone else can do the same. There ARE no rules that apply to "ME!" The path that we as a nation are headed down and that is exemplified in the reasoning that "You cannot steal what is freely given."

Good Morning to you all,

Slinging mud here, there and everywhere. Do you honestly think that move me.

One fool talking about being "second". Second to what? If my husband had cheated and I found out, and I then let him stay, do you really think I would consider myself "first", just becuase he stayed - hell no. That is the whole thing, you think your husbands chose you. No he did not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Talking about forgiveness - yeah. First you have to learn to forget inorder to forgive. I do forgive, I have a beautiful heart. I am a kind person. But I am also a realist. I do not grasp at straws. I don't believe in miracles and I know that no one sin is greater than the other - God views them the same. Why, because your husbands cheat and you feel like a doormat, all of a sudden you have now become so "forgiving". You all expect too much from people. We are all imperfect.

...and Ms. Priss,

I did not say you were married for 7 years (yes, I can count). I was merely quoting what statistics have been saying for years. That 7 year itch (heard that before), some marriages does start having problems and they have attributed this to the 7 year thing.

I noticed that everyone that posted after me never bother to mention the fact that I was a virgin when I met my husband and he married me (yes, came to my house and formally "begged" my mother for my hand in marriage), you know, the old fashion way.

I went to college after I was married, got my degree, never went on spring break (that a no-no in my family, for we all know what goes on there). My daughter is 17, just graduated high school, got 1300 on her SAT score, was the validictorian with a GPA of 3.4. She will be attending Temple University in the fall, majoring in Criminal Justice. I am very proud of her and she is of me. I've taught my daughter well - not to settle for less.

Food for thought!

XangelX,

I play second fiddle to noone. I'm a firm believer in show me your wife and I'll tell you who you are. I am afraid of getting STD's.

Some wives do have STD's you know. Where the hell did they get it from? Surely not the husbands. Hmmn, maybe the chickens are really coming home to roost.

hezat:

"slinging mud here, there and everywhere. Do you honestly think that move me."

What mud? Do you honestly think I care? Ac2ally, I do, but you probably didn't notice.

"That is the whole thing, you think your husbands chose you. No he did not."

I don't have a H. Homey don't play that.

"Talking about forgiveness - yeah. First you have to learn to forget inorder to forgive."

WRONG!

Beverly Flanigan - Forgiving The Unforgivable: Overcoming the Legacy of Intimate Wounds:

"Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting...A wounded person cannot--indeed, should not--think that a faded memory can provide an expiation of the past. To forgive, one must remember the past, put it into perspective, and move beyond it. Without remembrance, no wound can be transcended."

"Why, because your husbands cheat and you feel like a doormat, all of a sudden you have now become so "forgiving". You all expect too much from people. We are all imperfect."

My H didn't cheat on me. I did feel like a doormat for a long time, though. I didn't become forgiving "all of a sudden", by any means. Forgiveness has been a 30 month process for me. Mostly I've been forgiving myself for things I have been made aware of that I've done wrong, or "inexpediently" perhaps. Forgiveness is for YOU, not for your spouse's benefit, FIRST. Your personal emotional health must come first, before you can have emotionally healthy relationships with other people. We don't "expect" things from other people that they didn't promise us (like fidelity), though we can certainly live what we believe in 2 the best of our abilities and hope that those around us will do likewise.

-ol' 2long

hezat:

Maybe I'm just dense (HS diploma, BS, MS, PhD) but:

"I'm a firm believer in show me your wife and I'll tell you who you are. I am afraid of getting STD's."

What the heck does this mean?

-Dr 2long

Talking about forgiveness - yeah. First you have to learn to forget inorder to forgive. I do forgive,
Huh?
How can you forgive him if you still remember why you left him?
"I left my husband - not for another man (or that he cheated), simply because I did not love him anymore - I did not like him anymore"

toofedup:

More about the topic, from a different perspective.

David Schnarch, in "Passionate Marriage" talks very little about infidelity (it's about sex therapy, but MOST importantly, about becoming a healthy individual capable of having a committed relationship). So when he did mention it on page 299, I found what he said about the "thief" concept interesting:

"Spouses often try to avoid marriage's forced choices by usurping their partner's options. A clandestine affair can be understood as an attempt to steal a partner's choice for monogamy. The adulterer wants it both ways: to have sex with someone else and still be married to the spouse. It's lilke saying, "I want this other person *and* I want you. If I tell you about the affair, you might choose to leave. To hell with what you want - to be in a monogamous relationship. I get both choices and you get none. That's because I *love* you and don't want to give you up!" Granted, the other spouse might not want to have sex at all. But that doesn't remove the dilemma; it just means neither really wants to choose."

-ol' 2long

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To wit (as an example):

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The OP is not a theif.

You cannot steal what is freely given.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, so applying this "logic" it would be "okay" and "not stealing" for someone to hold up a bank provided that the Teller (entrusted to protect both the deposits that belong to him and to others that the bank has "covenanted" with) freely gives it to him.
<hr /></blockquote>When someone is holding up a bank they usually have a gun pointed at the tellers head telling them to give them the money. The teller isn't freely giving that money and the OP doesn't normally stick a gun to the WS's head and MAKE them do anything.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> In marriage, your body is no longer "yours", but it belongs to your spouse.
<hr /></blockquote>Sorry...I do not agree with that. Nobody owns me nor any part of me. My body soley belongs to me and I am the only one that decides what is done to and with it. My husband married me....he didn't sign a title of ownership...he signed a marriage certificate.

-----------------------------------------

hezat...I just have to reply to you one last time.....cuz your so darn funny......NOT!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I noticed that everyone that posted after me never bother to mention the fact that I was a virgin when I met my husband and he married me (yes, came to my house and formally "begged" my mother for my hand in marriage), you know, the old fashion way.
<hr /></blockquote>And your point is?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm a firm believer in show me your wife and I'll tell you who you are. I am afraid of getting STD's.
<hr /></blockquote>?????????????????

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I went to college after I was married, got my degree, never went on spring break (that a no-no in my family, for we all know what goes on there). My daughter is 17, just graduated high school, got 1300 on her SAT score, was the validictorian with a GPA of 3.4. She will be attending Temple University in the fall, majoring in Criminal Justice. I am very proud of her and she is of me. I've taught my daughter well - not to settle for less.

Food for thought! <hr /></blockquote>The food for thought for me in this paragraph is......

Your daughter was the validictorian of her class with a GPA of 3.4? That's not even a B+.

Okay.....I'm done. It's just so friggin funny I can't help myself.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />When someone is holding up a bank they usually have a gun pointed at the tellers head telling them to give them the money. The teller isn't freely giving that money and the OP doesn't normally stick a gun to the WS's head and MAKE them do anything.<hr /></blockquote>Miss Priss - Please don't be so dense, it isn't becoming to you at all. But okay, if you can't seem to grasp the analogy, or simply wish to continue to grasp for rationalizations, let's modify the scenario a little.

The "thief" is a friend of the Teller who has been telling the Teller how tough things are at work and that he really wants "more money" to satisfy his "needs". He walks into the bank and the Teller gives him the Bank's money. He "willingly" gave that which was not his to give.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In marriage, your body is no longer "yours", but it belongs to your spouse.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry...I do not agree with that. Nobody owns me nor any part of me. My body soley belongs to me and I am the only one that decides what is done to and with it. My husband married me....he didn't sign a title of ownership...he signed a marriage certificate. <hr /></blockquote>Ahhh...spoken like a typical feminist and secular humanist. However, it's totally unScriptural and the opposite of what God teaches. But since you are probably not a Christian, you fall prey to the age old lie that you are "god," sovereign, and in total control of your life, answerable to no one but your own whims and desires. Is that really what you are saying? The epitomy of selfish self-centeredness?

The reality whether you choose to believe it or not is that you HAVE been "bought and paid for" by Jesus Christ. You are NOT "your own."

But if you choose to reject Jesus Christ, allow me to be the "first" to abandon you to your own omniscience and standards. You see, there IS a "right and wrong" regardless of what anyone chooses to believe and that "right and wrong" has been established by God, who IS sovereign over all things.

I don't appreciate being called dense FH.

Especailly because I do not believe in something that you believe in.

Why is it that because you claim to be a Christian it makes it okay for you to judge me....but I'm not entitled to my opinion simply because it's mine?

Doesn't sound very Christian like to me.

Tell me something....oh...and I'm surely to be flamed for this. IF God is in control of EVERYTHING and owns EVERYBODY....why then is there a need for this board?

I'm no better than ANYONE (not even hazet)on this board...and I have never claimed to be....so as for me thinking that I am God and sovereign is a bunch of crap.

I'm done with this thread....and maybe this board....oh boo hoo....Miss Priss is leavin....so what. I'm tired of people trying to ram their views of things down others throats and acting like they are better than others because they believe in something that some others don't.

I'm entiteld to my opinion and to think the way I think.....if I wasn't.....God wouldn't allow me to.

If you don't like what I have to say....ignore me. I don't mind....really....it won't hurt my feelings. I'm a big girl...I can take it.

FH:

You're a good man, but you sometimes say things that truly amaze me. This was offensive nonsense:

"Ahhh...spoken like a typical feminist and secular humanist."

Hm... I'm not female, but I'm probably a feminist. In your view, I'm definitely a secular humanist (though I've never gone 2 a tent full of them and chanted slogans or anything). I'm reallly probably a Christian, since I was brought up as one and still believe in the ethics, morality, and spiri2al teachings of Jesus. I just don't believe in dogma, particularly fundamentalist "non-denominational" dogma. I've been exposed 2 that as well.

"However, it's totally unScriptural and the opposite of what God teaches."

Your opinion. "Opposite" is a strong word. Qualify. You often speak in absolutes.

"But since you are probably not a Christian, you fall prey to the age old lie that you are "god," sovereign, and in total control of your life, answerable to no one but your own whims and desires. Is that really what you are saying? The epitomy of selfish self-centeredness?"

Hm... If one is not a Christian, by your definition of the title, then you draw all these asinine judgemental conclusions about them? Where did this crap come from? Certainly not the Bible (though there certainly are EXAMPLES of these kind of people in the bible).

"The reality whether you choose to believe it or not is that you HAVE been "bought and paid for" by Jesus Christ. You are NOT "your own.""

Geez... I won't say it.

"But if you choose to reject Jesus Christ, allow me to be the "first" to abandon you to your own omniscience and standards."

Who are you 2 abandon anybody? You've just made a judgement you have no business making, and passed sentence you have no authority passing.

"You see, there IS a "right and wrong" regardless of what anyone chooses to believe and that "right and wrong" has been established by God, who IS sovereign over all things."

Right and wrong are relative terms. Saying that does nothing 2 diminish the importance 2 know the difference in your life. Is it right 2 kill for food? If I were the cow being transformed in2 hamburger, I wouldn't think so. But then, your god put everything here on this Earth, including this Earth, for us 2 go forth and subdue. Nice guy.

-ol' 2long

2Long - hmmmmm....let's see....it's okay for anyone BUT a Christian to hold whatever belief they choose and be judgmental of any Christian who stands up for their belief.

Nothing new in that stance....for at least the last 2000 or so years.

I'm sorry if what I say offended you, but I am NOT into "moral relativism". There IS "right and wrong." There is God and there is Satan. There is sin and there is living one's life attempting to be obedient to God's commands because one loves God and has willingly surrendered his sinful wants and desires to God's will.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In your view, I'm definitely a secular humanist (though I've never gone 2 a tent full of them and chanted slogans or anything). I'm reallly probably a Christian, since I was brought up as one and still believe in the ethics, morality, and spiri2al teachings of Jesus. I just don't believe in dogma, particularly fundamentalist "non-denominational" dogma. I've been exposed 2 that as well. <hr /></blockquote>2Long, you can "choose" to be anything you want or reject anything you want. However, you cannot be a Christian by "association." The definition of a Christian is quite clear and quite simple. It is someone who has recognized that they ARE a sinner, confessed their sin to God, and accepted Jesus Christ as their own personal Lord and Savior.

Whether you accept or reject Truth is irrelevant to the truth. For example, be exposed to geography and physical science and choose to be a "flat earther." It won't change the reality that the earth is "round." Choose to reject the laws of gravity and step off a tall building because the "laws don't apply to me." Let reality (truth) exert it's own difference of opinion on you until "interrupted" by the pavement at the base of the building.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"However, it's totally unScriptural and the opposite of what God teaches."

Your opinion. "Opposite" is a strong word. Qualify. You often speak in absolutes. <hr /></blockquote>Sorry, 2Long, it is NOT my "opinion." It is clearly taught in the Scripture. Would you care to have the particular verses quoted? No, I didn't think so.

Yes, I speak in absolutes in several areas. Not all of life is "grey." There ARE black and white, right and wrong, areas. Those who choose to make themselves sovereign reject the notion that there can BE "right and wrong" independent of what THEY want. They reserve the "right" to determine what is right and what is wrong for themselves irrespective of anyone else. Totally self oriented and selfish in nature.

Whether someone like that thinks that "following the moral teachings of Jesus is a good thing for them" or whether they choose to do whatever they feel like doing is immaterial. Because when you remove the "outside" standard, right and wrong loses all meaning and is determined by the INDIVIDUAL and no one else. So bring on the saints trying to live a "good life" because they are comfortable with that for themselves and bring on the rapists of the world because THAT is what they think is a "good life" for themselves and bring on everyone doing "their own thing" for themselves because NO ONE has any right to "judge" another person's behavior.

Yep. Get real. Your bias is not against "right and wrong." Your bias and judgmental stance is against Christians, against God, and against anyone daring enough to call sin..."SIN."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"But if you choose to reject Jesus Christ, allow me to be the "first" to abandon you to your own omniscience and standards."

Who are you 2 abandon anybody? You've just made a judgement you have no business making, and passed sentence you have no authority passing. <hr /></blockquote>Oh get real, 2Long. Just whom do you think you are going to make "cower" because 2Long is the "judge over all?" Who am I to abandon anybody? I am just like you with the right to not associate with anyone I choose not to associate with. You don't "like" the word "abandon", tough. That IS exactly what you or I or anyone does when they leave someone to their own devices. You "abandon" the discussion, the argument, the "whatever."

"You've just made a judgement you have no business making, and passed sentence you have no authority passing," 2Long, you can't have it both ways son. Either there IS a definite "right and wrong" that defines behavior and actions OR there is NONE and each individual is free to believe and do whatever they personally feel is right. So which do YOU believe in? Either way ** I ** am not being the judgmental one here, YOU are.

But that's "my" opinion and I'm not here to support my definition of "right and wrong" or marriage based on "self interest." I am here in support of God's definition whether I like it or not and whether you like it or not.

2Long, your "issue" really isn't with me. Your issue is with Jesus Christ. You choose to put yourself at enmity with Him. It still doesn't change the Truth that IS there. Jesus Christ WAS a "real live person," an historical figure if you will, who did and said certain things. He can't be ingored. You can choose to reject Him, but you can't deny His existance. The choices regarding Jesus Christ are simple. He was either a Legend (made up, didn't really exist), a Liar, a Lunatic (just "thought he was God and the Messiah in the same vein as kooks who are locked up the funny farm believe they are Napoleon), or He was LORD.

The historicity of Jesus is proven and is there for the examination, as are the facts surrounding Him. And while we are at it....OJ didn't really do it...and Osama wasn't really behind 9/11...besides, it's Osama's "right" to do whatever he thinks is right for himself regardless of how his actions might IMPACT others.

"Go out and kill those who will not think as you do" is the teaching of the Koran, not the Bible. Take your choice as to who is being "judgmental".
I'll stand on God's side of the scrimmage line and you can stand on any side you choose.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Right and wrong are relative terms. <hr /></blockquote>No, 2Long, they are not "relative." Sin is sin and sin is wrong by God's decree. He provided us with things like the 10 Commandments to show us the difference and to convict us (make us aware) of what sin is and that it is WRONG.

HUMANS, in their selfishness and self-centeredness TRY to make things relative so that they can justify doing whatever they wish. Just like a spoiled child who thinks everything is "owed" to him simply because he "wants" it. That is where "moral relativism" comes from. "All things are 'relative', 'situational ethics', whatever excuse or justification for sinful behavior you want to dredge up" is exactly what I am talking about is the problem with your "argument."

To put it bluntly and offensively, there should be no need for Marriage Builders, or marriage in general, because the individual is "free to do whatever they want" with no one else allowed to be "judgmental" or to say some action is "Right or Wrong." I get to diddle with your wife and you have no say in the matter, besides if it's what I want and what she wants, nothing else is important or relevant and it shouldn't "bother you in the least" because you have already said that everyone gets to do whatever they "feel like or want" because right and wrong are determined only by individuals for themselves and no one else. To disagree with that is to be "judgmental." Pardon me while I go choke and puke on that one.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If I were the cow being transformed in2 hamburger, I wouldn't think so. But then, your god put everything here on this Earth, including this Earth, for us 2 go forth and subdue. Nice guy. <hr /></blockquote>2Long, mock God all you want. Be judgmental against God all you want. 2Long, just in case you haven't figured it out yet, there IS a huge difference between cows and people... unless you are Jeffrey Dahmer. If you believe in "nature", then one creature eating another is the normal fare.

And one other thing, there is a huge difference between "subduing" the earth in love and subduing it for sinful self-gratification.

I am somewhat surprised (not really) with your mocking, derisive tone, and childish attempts to justify sinful behavior. But that is most often the result when someone places themselves on the "throne" of their lives instead of placing the loving God of the universe on that "throne." "Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Service, 2Long. Willing service. An attitude of Servanthood. Giving, not taking. Think about it, if you are really so open to consideration of differing opinions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm done with this thread....and maybe this board....oh boo hoo....Miss Priss is leavin....so what. I'm tired of people trying to ram their views of things down others throats and acting like they are better than others because they believe in something that some others don't.

I'm entiteld to my opinion and to think the way I think.....if I wasn't.....God wouldn't allow me to.

If you don't like what I have to say....ignore me. I don't mind....really....it won't hurt my feelings. I'm a big girl...I can take it.
<hr /></blockquote>oh boo hoo....someone disagrees with me and has the "temerity" to say so. Sounds a whole lot like the "Emperor and his new clothes."

"You disagree with me so I'm going to take my bat and ball and go home." Okay. Go ahead, that is your choice and your exercise of your "free will."

Miss Priss you ARE entitled to your opinion, as am I. If you don't "like" my opinion, that's tough. I am willing to support my position and "take the heat" of divergent opinions. But if you can't "stand the heat" then by all means, get out of the "kitchen."

You put out into public, for the consumption of all who might read your musings, YOUR OPINION. The implied statement is that others "should" agree with you. Guess what? It doesn't work that way. Make your argument, support your belief and opinion, and let others decide for themselves which argument is "more persuasive" or more likely to be "true."

No one "likes" to be told that they are wrong in whatever belief that they hold. So what? Are you only interested in what makes you "feel good" or are your really interested in what is true and good? If the former, then nothing anyone, including me, has to say will (or should) have any impact on you. If the latter, then stuff the "indignation" and openly and honestly examine the facts to see if there is "anything" in your beliefs or behaviors that should be changed in order for YOU to grow and become a "better person." There is a certain thing called "constructive criticism" that by it's nature says "something you believe is incorrect or something you are doing is wrong and you would be far better off individually if you changed your behavior."

THAT IS what Marriage Builders is all about. Change. Not the "status quo." What are "Love Busters" anyway? What is the need to eliminate "Love Busters"? Who cares what "Emotional Needs" there are and that they may be different between, or in different orders of importance, between a husband and a wife?

Who cares that a Certificate of Marriage in the physical "symbol" that a man and a woman have CHOSEN to volunatarily relinquish their "absolute" control over their own bodies to each other? Why even BE married if you are free to do whatever you wish with your own body regardless of an promises or covenants that you willingly made? Is it even worth the "paper it is written on?"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't appreciate being called dense FH.

Especailly because I do not believe in something that you believe in.

Why is it that because you claim to be a Christian it makes it okay for you to judge me....but I'm not entitled to my opinion simply because it's mine?

Doesn't sound very Christian like to me.
<hr /></blockquote>uh huh. I notice you like to be judgmental regarding what YOU think a "Christian" should be. Apparantly it's someone who should keep their mouth shut and let you do and say whatever you please. But Christian love for you and others demands that sin be called "sin" and that dangerous arguments be confronted so that others can see that not "all" people buy into that nonsense as being "true."

But I also notice that you went on the "attack Christians" route instead of commenting on the analogy. So "dense" or not, is it "Right" to give someone something that you have contacted to protect and defend against "all outsiders," something that you "gave" to your spouse and it is now (as the recipient of that gift) theirs and no longer exclusively yours?

"Thou shalt NOT commit adultery." A definitive prohibition and "judgment" of right and wrong behavior. So whether according to God or according to the court system, adultery is WRONG and has consequences. You are NOT, under either system, "free" to do whatever you please.

So just who ARE you mad at?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The food for thought for me in this paragraph is......

Your daughter was the validictorian of her class with a GPA of 3.4? That's not even a B+.

Okay.....I'm done. It's just so friggin funny I can't help myself.
<hr /></blockquote>OMG!!! Then your daughter must be a as intellegant as you are! You are right....LOL You have "taught" her well!

Here in our "town" a 3.4 wouldn't get you into the top 25 percentile of your class!! LOL Where do you live??? Geez....at least "learn" how to Bull Sh*t here!

You are a VERY confused OW!

Atruheart

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm entiteld to my opinion and to think the way I think.....if I wasn't.....God wouldn't allow me to.

<hr /></blockquote>But Miss Priss???? You say "There is NO God???" then you USE HIM in your own message as if there is a God??? how is that?

And nobody "judged" here anyone..... only judging that happens is from God himself! (backed up by his word....the Holy Bible)

But then again.......you don't believe. Or then again.....may be YOU DO???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

How did this turn into a religeous debate??? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Blessings,
Atruheart

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Once he cheated, he's gone baby! I am much too damn attractive. <hr /></blockquote>hezat - could simply be "in the eye of the beholder."

"Beauty is only skin deep."

Many such phrases about the idea.

"I CAN do it, therefore I WILL do it." Nevermind that it might not be the "best choice."

"What's love got to do with it?"

"Forgiveness? That's for the weak! Give me an 'eye for an eye'!"

And your "poster child" for moral, ethical, and 'proper' behavior is a thrice married Other Woman who inserted herself into someone else's marriage?

It DOES take "all types" to make up the world, but you are most definitely NOT a Marriage Builder, nor a supporter of marital values. You ARE a supporter of marriage as a convenience and when it is no longer "convenient" you throw it away like used toilet paper.

Sheesh!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Miss Priss you ARE entitled to your opinion, as am I. If you don't "like" my opinion, that's tough. I am willing to support my position and "take the heat" of divergent opinions. But if you can't "stand the heat" then by all means, get out of the "kitchen." <hr /></blockquote>I've withstood more "heat" than ALOT of other posters here....and believe me...YOUR post alone would not make me leave this board.

I don't think I said....boo hoo....FH said something mean to me and now I'm leaving.

Don't flatter yourself.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Why even BE married if you are free to do whatever you wish with your own body regardless of an promises or covenants that you willingly made? Is it even worth the "paper it is written on?" <hr /></blockquote>You take way too many things out of context.

You see the things that I say in a different way than I see them.

I said that my body was mine.....not my husbands....and you bring God into it.

I said that the OP isn't a theif...and you bring God into it.

I myself am not sure how this became a religious debate.

You make it seem like since I've said that my body is my own and I can do whatever I wish with it that I will break the promises made in my vows, just because I made that statement. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.

I do believe in God...I just don't think the way you think.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I notice you like to be judgmental regarding what YOU think a "Christian" should be. <hr /></blockquote>No, I simply stated that being judgmental doesn't sound very Christian like to me.

Not judging....stating a fact.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There is a certain thing called "constructive criticism" <hr /></blockquote>There is a line between constructive criticism and being rude and judgmental. Constructive criticism doesn't involve calling people names. That is just childish.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Thou shalt NOT commit adultery." A definitive prohibition and "judgment" of right and wrong behavior. So whether according to God or according to the court system, adultery is WRONG and has consequences. You are NOT, under either system, "free" to do whatever you please. <hr /></blockquote>I'm wondering if you can tell me why you are telling me this....since I'm so dense.

I don't think that I have EVER said that adultery was a "good thing" or right.

I don't believe I've ever said I was ABOVE either system either. You are just taking from my posts what you want from them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But Christian love for you and others demands that sin be called "sin" and that dangerous arguments be confronted so that others can see that not "all" people buy into that nonsense as being "true." <hr /></blockquote>Sorry FH....not feelin any love comin from ya, just judgment on the way I word things....and the things that you think I think and the way you think I am.

Now....I'm done. I've said all I am going to say. I do not have to explain myself any further to you and I'm not going to participate in a religous debate.

“2Long - hmmmmm....let's see....it's okay for anyone BUT a Christian to hold whatever belief they choose and be judgmental of any Christian who stands up for their belief.”

You certainly didn’t get this idea from me, FH. …or you did, but the machinations that got you there are entirely of your own making.

“Nothing new in that stance....for at least the last 2000 or so years.”

Perhaps, but you digress.

“I'm sorry if what I say offended you, but I am NOT into "moral relativism". There IS "right and wrong."

That wasn’t what offended me. What offended me was your judgmental tirade against your “non-Christians” (meaning, your definition). I never got that tone reading Jesus’ teachings, but I get it all the time from people like you.

“2Long, you can "choose" to be anything you want or reject anything you want. However, you cannot be a Christian by "association."”

ForeverHers, with all due respect, I can “do whatever I want”, including be a “Christian by association”, assuming that your latest thought path has anything 2 do with what I believe in or “want 2 do.” It really doesn’t, though. You’re losing me again. Don’t misunderstand that statement, either. I’m not getting confused, you’re missing the mark. You’re attempting 2 define who ol’ 2long is and what ol’ 2long wants, but you have no idea but a pair of opposite absolutes 2 work from. You missed!

“Sorry, 2Long, it is NOT my "opinion." It is clearly taught in the Scripture. Would you care to have the particular verses quoted? No, I didn't think so.”

No? 2uote away! Stop assuming you know what I want.

“Yes, I speak in absolutes in several areas. Not all of life is "grey." There ARE black and white, right and wrong, areas.”

And by your own implication, there are “gray areas” as well.

“Those who choose to make themselves sovereign reject the notion that there can BE "right and wrong" independent of what THEY want. They reserve the "right" to determine what is right and what is wrong for themselves irrespective of anyone else. Totally self oriented and selfish in nature.”

The original assertion bugged me, so I looked this up, and I 2uote:

“…while there is no need for an inspired arithmetic or an inspired geometry, while there is no inspired chemistry or geology, there had to be, apparently, an inspired morality, because without God moral laws would be without authority, and decency would disappear from human society… …Morality is a natural fact; it is not created by the formulation of "laws"; these only express its existence and our sense of value. The moral feeling creates the moral law; not the other way about. Morality has nothing to do with God; it has nothing to do with a future life. Its sphere of application and operation is in this world; its authority is derived from the common sense of mankind and is born of the necessities of corporate life. In this matter, as in others, man is thrown back upon himself and if the process of development is a slow one there is the comforting reflection that the growth of knowledge and of understanding has placed within our reach the power to make human life a far greater and better thing. If we will!!” from “Morality without God” - Chapman Cohen.

And I am sincerely sorry if you find that offensive.

“So bring on the saints trying to live a "good life" because they are comfortable with that for themselves and bring on the rapists of the world because THAT is what they think is a "good life" for themselves and bring on everyone doing "their own thing" for themselves because NO ONE has any right to "judge" another person's behavior.

Yep. Get real. Your bias is not against "right and wrong." Your bias and judgmental stance is against Christians, against God, and against anyone daring enough to call sin..."SIN."”

This is so utterly bizarre, FH. I have no idea where you’re coming from, except 2 think that you feel this way because you believe that atheists (or any religious person that doesn’t fall within your extraordinarily narrow definition of Christian), are amoral. How many Christian rapists have there been? Oxymoron, 2 be sure, but I think you know what I mean.

“Oh get real, 2Long. Just whom do you think you are going to make "cower" because 2Long is the "judge over all?"”

Cower? Ol’ 2long want 2 make anybody cower??? You clearly don’t know me at all.

“You don't "like" the word "abandon", tough. That IS exactly what you or I or anyone does when they leave someone to their own devices. You "abandon" the discussion, the argument, the "whatever."”

I see what you’re saying in the last sentence here, but I don’t agree with your premise. For example, when in plan B, Mbers are NOT “abandoning” the WS, but giving them the oppor2nity 2 learn something. Plan B is a loving act, not an abandonment, though it might seem like that 2 the WS.

“2Long, you can't have it both ways son.”

I’m not your son.

“Either there IS a definite "right and wrong" that defines behavior and actions OR there is NONE and each individual is free to believe and do whatever they personally feel is right. So which do YOU believe in?”

Ah yes, black and white. Religion/morality or anarchy. No gray. Regardless of whether there ever is or was an absolute definition of right or wrong, each individual is STILL free (indeed, morally obligated) 2 believe and do what they personally feel is right. It’s always been so. Always will be so. Religious or not, the choice is still in front of us all the time. Which do I believe in?… …I believe that “salvation,” as you call it, must be sought constantly – it is NOT a one-off event.

“2Long, your "issue" really isn't with me.”

Yes, my issue really is with you. Me and Jesus are doing fine.

“Your issue is with Jesus Christ. You choose to put yourself at enmity with Him.”

From the dictionary: “Enmity is hatred such as might be felt for an enemy: the wartime enmity of the two nations.”

Again, I can make no sense out of your characterizations of me. Nothing 2 address here, except 2 say that you are grievously incorrect.

“It still doesn't change the Truth that IS there. Jesus Christ WAS a "real live person," an historical figure if you will, who did and said certain things. He can't be ingored.”

Have I said different?

“And while we are at it....OJ didn't really do it...and Osama wasn't really behind 9/11...besides, it's Osama's "right" to do whatever he thinks is right for himself regardless of how his actions might IMPACT others. Go out and kill those who will not think as you do" is the teaching of the Koran, not the Bible. Take your choice as to who is being "judgmental".”

Are you suggesting that, because a madman chooses 2 murder thousands of people, the religion he purports 2 be a champion for is also evil? Heck, even Binnie’s own family doesn’t support him!

"I'll stand on God's side of the scrimmage line and you can stand on any side you choose.”

Cute. Missed again!! This particularly "scrimmage line" is between you and me, not God and "everything else, that's bad and nothing but." You can't just lump me in the black, like you seem 2 want 2 do.

“HUMANS, in their selfishness and self-centeredness TRY to make things relative so that they can justify doing whatever they wish. Just like a spoiled child who thinks everything is "owed" to him simply because he "wants" it. That is where "moral relativism" comes from. "All things are 'relative', 'situational ethics', whatever excuse or justification for sinful behavior you want to dredge up" is exactly what I am talking about is the problem with your "argument."”

Again, you missed! I have no desire 2 “justify sinful behavior”. More 2 the point, my own life experience, I’m not even trying 2 understand my W’s A – as there is nothing 2 understand. I’m trying 2 restore the morality 2 my M that I’ve believed in all along.

“I get to diddle with your wife and you have no say in the matter, besides if it's what I want and what she wants, nothing else is important or relevant and it shouldn't "bother you in the least" because you have already said that everyone gets to do whatever they "feel like or want" because right and wrong are determined only by individuals for themselves and no one else. To disagree with that is to be "judgmental." Pardon me while I go choke and puke on that one.”

Believe me, I choked and puked after this bizarre tirade myself! Made absolutely no sense 2 me. Sorry.

“2Long, mock God all you want.”

No desire 2. It’s much more fun mocking you! Sorry, I don’t really mean that. Seriously, what makes you think I’m mocking God?

“I am somewhat surprised (not really) with your mocking, derisive tone, and childish attempts to justify sinful behavior. But that is most often the result when someone places themselves on the "throne" of their lives instead of placing the loving God of the universe on that "throne."”

Um… …huh?? Missed again.

“Service, 2Long. Willing service. An attitude of Servanthood. Giving, not taking. Think about it, if you are really so open to consideration of differing opinions.”

I don’t disagree, though you won’t understand. Gray.

-ol’ 2long

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Is this what you call threadjacking....

XaX:

Yes, it is... (ol' 2long hangs head in shame) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Sorry about that, toofedup.

-ol' 2long

I know I said I was done with this one....but I thought an apology was in order.

Miss Priss hangs her head in shame too.....only for getting off subject though. I won't hang my head in shame for MY opinion.

And being a little childish....

I DIDN'T START IT!!

I'm sorry toofedup.

By the way....I chose to apologize....God didn't make me to do it.

[ July 15, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]

Hezat: I agree with you. I don't really comprehend why wives stay with their husbands unless they don't love them anymore and it is a marriage of convenience. I am fascinated by the postings because infidelity seems like one huge endless nightmare and I don't think many of the problems can be worked out. I think it's quite unrealistic. Once a cheater always a cheater and once caught, if the spouse forgives them ,I mean what will stop them from doing it again.

I don't think human beings are wired to want to be with ONE person all their lives unless the connection is so huge so strong and they need to really work at it. But once the mirror is broken, is it really worth fixing the broken pieces? Economincally, split the assets and go, work, who cares as long as you don't have to live with a dog who cheats on you. Children, people have coped with this before and they always will be able to - may not be ideal but I think better to have seperated parents than parents who live in hell together.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Once a cheater always a cheater and once caught, if the spouse forgives them ,I mean what will stop them from doing it again. <hr /></blockquote>WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

Affairs happen for countless number of reasons. Don't assume that they are all lumped together.

In my case, my H never wanted to LEAVE me, he never wanted to live happily ever after with the OW. We both contributed to the breakdown of our marriage.

I chose to forgive him, he chose to forgive me, and we are working hard, no let me rephrase, we are ENJOYING our marriage and are THANKFUL it is better than it ever WAS.

It was a big WAKE up call. There is truth in what hezat said, I realized that someone else WOULD step up to the plate if I failed to even try. Well I'll never leave that field open again.

We aren't miserably married. We have no children together, we are both educated and make a pretty decent living, have no financial dependencies on each other. Why are we together and the OW is long gone ? Because 2 is company and 3 is a crowd. Somebody had to go. Guess it wasn't me.

As for the rest of this threadjacking...WOW... don't know what's worse, religion or politics, but neither makes good conversation. I'm staying far away from that discussion.

Oh my GOD, what has this board become? Yipes.

The original article on Dr. Phil's thread has a lot of good points. It speaks to the value of women, OW or wife, by asking them to consider all who are hurting because of the affair.

What transpired on this thread since the article was posted is mind-boggling, at best.

I would like to address the "Once a cheater, always a cheater" thing.

I believe that a MARRIAGE is FOREVER changed by adultery. It can be changed for BETTER or for WORSE. But it will NEVER EVER EVER EVER be the same again. EVER. (Just in case I wasn't clear)

And people CAN AND DO change, as well. Thank God for that, because without that hope all the bad people in the world would remain just that - bad.

Life is ever-changing...

But...

Since marriage is changed forever, the trust is also changed forever, and it may "feel" like "once a cheater..." because you, as the BS, will *never* feel that level of trust again.

But that doesn't mean the WS will cheat again. What it does mean is that you'll (perhaps) always worry that they might.

JMHO (and not really so humble)...

)

Hey Hezat,

Wrong. God DOES view some sins worse than others...in addition, repeated practice of sin carries with an 'unrepentant' attitude...

God takes that very seriously. Beware.

Wrong. God DOES view some sins worse than others...in addition, repeated practice of sin carries with an 'unrepentant' attitude...

Where did you get this from? Which Bible? We have all sinned and fallen short of HIS glory. That is why we should pray incessantly - not only in the nights, or in the mornings, or when our hubby's cheat (all of a sudden some people become hollier than thou), but at each and every waking moment we should petition Him through His son Jesus Christ.

So, if you came to the conclusion that I am a big "sinner" because I voiced my opinion about your lifestyle - well so be it. God is a God of Justice, Love, Peace, Strength (just a few of his attributes), tha tis why He and He alone is capable of judging us. I am not judging anyone here, I am merely stating what I believe in - is that so wrong?

The original article from Dr. Phil was very good. The rest of this is scary guys! What's up?

If you wonder why we all do what we do...stay with our partners, leave our partners, refuse to ever love again because it's too risky, etc....just look inside. The healthy reasons and the unhealthy ones...they are all there.

http://www.coping.org/growdwn/inner.htm

Stillwed

Still: Apparently we have been "graced" with the presence of an ABSOLUTELY PERFECT PERSON named "hezat." And apparently, she has only allowed other similarly "perfect" people, such as her B+ Valedictorian daughter, to remain in her life. My goodness, if her daughter were to go on spring break, would she need to disown her? Or, GASP, have premarital sex? Or make some other HEINOUS, UNFORGIVABLE OFFENSE! Fortunately for our dear perfect person, no such tragedy ever has or ever will befall her... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Bow, in AWE of the fact that she got married as a VIRGIN! OOOOO! AHHHHH! Behold the glory of the fact her first husband asked her parents for her hand, the ONLY APPROVED WAY TO ENGAGE IN MARRIAGE! Be blown away by the fact that she NEVER ONCE IN COLLEGE WENT ON SPRING BREAK! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And thus, since forgetting a slight or an injury is patently impossible, and forgiveness of said injuries must be likewise impossible, has fortunately never had someone she loved "sin" against her that would require her to either forgive them (impossible) or hit the cosmic ejector seat and give them the boot out of her life (apparently her preferred method for dealing with transgressors who don't meet her standard of perfection).

Stillwed, sweetie, we better hope she doesn't go to In Recovery and read some of the complicated success stories over there like yours and mine. Her poor widdle narrow mind would simply MELT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

ROFLMAO

[ July 28, 2004, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Kat72 ]

Lol, Kat! I'm just trying to figure out what the heck she's doing in the "Just Found Out" section???? Or on a marriage building site for any reason if she's not married. She might want to reconsider a second marriage if she's bored enough to spend time here!

On a serious note though. Nobody gets that mean and vicious without having suffered some kind of pain in their lives. Maybe she's here to learn about inner child work!

Still

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Still: Apparently we have been "graced" with the presence of an ABSOLUTELY PERFECT PERSON named "hezat." And apparently, she has only allowed other similarly "perfect" people, such as her B+ Valedictorian daughter, to remain in her life. My goodness, if her daughter were to go on spring break, would she need to disown her? Or, GASP, have premarital sex? Or make some other HEINOUS, UNFORGIVABLE OFFENSE! Fortunately for our dear perfect person, no such tragedy ever has or ever will befall her...

Bow, in AWE of the fact that she got married as a VIRGIN! OOOOO! AHHHHH! Behold the glory of the fact her first husband asked her parents for her hand, the ONLY APPROVED WAY TO ENGAGE IN MARRIAGE! Be blown away by the fact that she NEVER ONCE IN COLLEGE WENT ON SPRING BREAK!

And thus, since forgetting a slight or an injury is patently impossible, and forgiveness of said injuries must be likewise impossible, has fortunately never had someone she loved "sin" against her that would require her to either forgive them (impossible) or hit the cosmic ejector seat and give them the boot out of her life (apparently her preferred method for dealing with transgressors who don't meet her standard of perfection).
<hr /></blockquote>I am not perfect sweatheart - don't you know there are no perfect person living in this system of things?

Having a husband cheat on you not once, not twice, but a lot of time is not what would be classify as "slight". This kind of revelation is heartrending. I don't believe I should stay with someone I can't trust. My husband never cheated on me. He was an alcoholic. Yes, I said it. If I were still married to him, this December with make 20 years (longer than most of you have to your spouses). I divorced him after (became final) 17 1/2 years of marriage. I could not deal with the promised and the "sorrys" and the "will never do it again" thing. It was not funny anymore. Our daughter was growing up and was afraid to bring her friends home because she'd be embarrassed by her father's drunkeness. She cried many tears. You'd think that would have him changed - NO! His explanation was that he was not hurting anyone but himself. That was wrong - he was hurting both of us. When drunk he would talk things that he wouldn't even remember saying when he got sober. Living with him was just a total nightmare. He had a low tollerance to alcoholic - 4 Budweiser light beer would get him drunk! I tried talking him into going to AA, he refused saying nothing was wrong with him. And he just continued, and continued, sometimes drunk to the point of not even knowing he brought him home. Also because of that he's been mugged several times - beaten badly and taken to the hospital, have to miss work for days, etc, etc, etc.

I din't love him anymore. I had to get myself and daughter out - I was becoming a co-dependant. I had to let our daughter see that there was better. Parents should be their children's role model (not superstars). I didn't want her to reason later on in life that If my mother stayed with all that crap it must not be all that bad. I asked him to leave, he would not, so I changed the locks on the door, he went to live with his mother, shortly after I bought a house in another state and moved. He is still getting drunk and being mugged and telling everyone that I left him for no reason.

Marriage counselor? Hell, no! Go consult someone who don't know me from a hole in the wall to convince me that I was doing the wrong thing by leaving? I knew this man since I was 18. He was supposed to be my partner for life, and we were to have many children - that's what I thought.

I equate a drunkard and a cheater on the same level. Maybe I've been a little harsh when I said if my husband cheated once that I would leave him immediately - probably not (that is where the imperfection comes in). But if I could not trust him anymore, and constantly reminding him of what he did, that in itself is grief. Why stay and do that? I'd rather leave.

My daughter means everything to me - I am proud of her. You know what she said to me once? I asked her If me and her father got back together if she would he happy. She said she would never speak to me again! From the mouth of babes - what more do I want?

Another thing, I never went on spring break, I will encourage my daughter not to go on spring break. She never went to her prom either. I do not like to hear the horrow stories associated with these things - I believe prevent is better than to cure, and I will not settle for less - not anymore.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Lol, Kat! I'm just trying to figure out what the heck she's doing in the "Just Found Out" section???? Or on a marriage building site for any reason if she's not married. She might want to reconsider a second marriage if she's bored enough to spend time here!

On a serious note though. Nobody gets that mean and vicious without having suffered some kind of pain in their lives. Maybe she's here to learn about inner child work! <hr /></blockquote>i WAS JUST SURFING - LOOKING AT HOW PATHETIC YOU SOUND.

yes i did suffer some kind of pain - I loved and married an alcoholic - that is why I am able to take my stand - once bitten, twice shy. Get the hell out.

All you do is cut and paste - good job! I come here to see if you have learnt anything from the constant philandering in your lives - nothing. You still want these men. What will make you wake up and leave? Probably if he left a sock on the dining room table, eh?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Me: BS, age 45, Enneagram Type 1w2
H: WS, age 45, Enneagram Type 4w3
Married: 27 years
Children: 3 Ages: 26, 24 & 20
D-day #1: November, 1986, after having one affair
D-day #2: January 4, 2003, H confessed 8 more affairs that happened from 1990-2002, including a then current "exit" affair. <hr /></blockquote>What a track record??? Arn't you running a high fever? Have mercy! What is this - forgiveness? No darling, you are a doormat!

One thing is for sure, at least someone wants him, find him attractive. What about you? Noone thinks you are worth it? AH!! Chin up.

hezat: Ah, so it becomes clear now. You need to forgive yourself.

"I was becoming codependent"--hon, after 17 years with an alcoholic, you weren't "becoming" codependent, you were codependent. And probably ashamed of it. Seventeen years of accepting that behavior is a lot of shame to deal with.

"I equate cheating with alcoholism" -- Um, clearly. Hence the transference. I am guessing that your decision to end your marriage, even for excellent reason, was very difficult for you. You need to believe that he would never have changed. That you didn't have any choice but to leave or continue to suffer. That staying and resolving his addiction and your codependency was impossible. And in your case, you were likely right. But for some reason, you need to believe that if YOU couldn't "straighten out" your messed up hubby, NO ONE can ever straighten out THEIR messed up spouses. And that's partly true. No one can cure another person's addictions. No one can decide for another person to change their life.

But you're ignoring a very relevant possibility: that the cheater or alcoholic may decide for THEMSELF to change, and be capable of it. That addiction recovery, be it to alcohol or to sex and relationships, is possible for those who finally reach rock bottom and are willing to seek help and healing.

I provoked you for a reason. Because I don't really believe you are here because you are "just surfing and noticed how pathetic we are." I think you were looking for someone more pathetic than you believe you were for staying with an alcoholic for so long. Which paints a nice big red bullseye target on Betrayed Spouses who choose to stay with their Wayward Spouses through the difficult and lengthy process of recovery. We have to be doormats, right? Because otherwise...well, that opens up possibilities for you that are too painful for you to consider.

Make fun of us if that's what you need to do. Belittle people who have undergone a traumatic experience, and are STILL willing to struggle and work through therapy in order to do what they believe is the right thing. But perhaps think a moment about why you feel compelled to do so? Why does a self-professed "kind" person feel the need to stomp on people while they are down?

I am not among those who "Just Found Out." My H's last A was over two and a half years ago. I am insulted for him that you believe he has invested two years of his life in weekly therapy, intensive Christian accountability groups, and the hard, hard work of looking at his problems and committing to solving them as a "waste." I am extremely proud of my husband for refusing to accept your easily tossed off cliche that "once a cheater, always a cheater." If he believed that, he might as well throw himself off a cliff, since he's obviously not capable of a committed, fulfilling adult relationship and never will be, right?

I've addressed my codependency issues, as has Stillwed. Your attitude is as ignorant as it is insulting, but I will overlook it as you are clearly someone whose past has caused them intense pain and shame.

In our church, most people know about H's history. You know what? We are the couple that OTHER couples come to for advice when they are experiencing problems. We can give them hope because we've been there. We taught a successful marriage improvement class together, based on things we've learned in the last couple of years. And both my sisters are more than a little jealous at how my H treats me with courtesy and respect, and how affectionate and loving we are with each other.

But of course, we must be "faking" it. Or in denial. And I must be torturing him with his mistake daily--although neither he nor I remember that happening after the first month or so of recovery. We have to be a big fake. A lie.

Because otherwise, the foundation that you've made several life-altering decisions based on is a bit shakier than you want to believe.

Go away, and spew your venom elsewhere, unless you decide you'd actually LIKE to learn how to build a healthy marriage, even after major obstacles and serious problems derail it completely.

Kat72

I have forgiven myself - I left.

I was ashamed of his behavior, and so was my daughter. I stayed all those years to make it work. His addition is a discease. Your man sleeping with other women - is that a disease? And, is there no shame in him sleeping with other people? what? An alcoholic is worst than a cheater?

To end my marriage was very difficult - shouldn't it be rightly so? I couldn't straighten out my "messed up" hubby, that is why I LEFT him. Hello! Noone can decide another person's addition is right. You only have control over your own life - so change it.

When my husband told me that he was not hurting anyone but himself, in a sense he was right. He was the one dealing with the after effect, the headaches, thowing up, etc. When your husbands go out and cheat they are including you all in it - opening you up to so much degradation. Sharing his most sacred parts with another person(s) - then come home a confest his love to you. I take that very seriously.

You don't need to be continually going through "traumatic" times. You can end it. I'm sure you'd had other relatonships before your husbands, you left those, you CAN leave this one. What? Because you sign a piece of paper that makes it sooooo binding. Treaties have been broken, kings have abducated thrones, Elizabeth Taylor left 6 husbands - you too can do it. I know what the problem is - low self esteem (LOL).

I especially like the part when you say "my H's LAST A was over two and half years ago". I am taking careful note of the "last". Did he have more than one? Or is it just 1 you found out about?

Therapy and intensive Christian accountability groups? What a joke. Grasping at straws, that's what it is. What is there to be proud of? He is not a cancer survivor or have just become a Rhode Scholar. No, he is a damn philanderer - Amen to that! If you spit in the sky, it will fall in your face. DOORMAT!

"In our church most people know about H's history". What a disgrace!!! You sure the affair(s)wasn't with one of the church members? I would explore that. They must be laughing about you inside.

I will not go away sweetie. Think about it, you don't even know me, I have not hurt you in any form and you are ready to dismiss me simply because you don't like to hear what I say. When you are willing to "dismiss" your cheater, then I will know you have been cured.

Bye for now. Such a mockery!

Hezat,

I'm not sure if you are for real or not. I am sorry that you've had so much pain in your life that you've learned to lash out first rather than chance being nice and having someone hurt you.

Just for the record, my H's affairs were about HIM, not me. He had a very difficult childhood to overcome and he basically never grew up until the past 18 months. He was always an amazing father to our now grown children, never drank, was always good to me in the marriage, loved me, etc. As a matter of fact, he told the last OW that he needed to love me as I deserved to be loved and that he felt horrible about not being able to do that. He took her my picture and told her how gorgeous he thought I was.

The problem was that he lost his mother at 15 and we met at 16. He projected his mother's image onto me and in the little boy part of him, I became his new mother instead of his wife. (I'm not sure why I think you'll "get" this, but I'm hoping.)

He wanted to stop his behavior just like an alcoholic wants to stop drinking. With each of these affairs, he was terribly remorseful and vowed to be a new man each time. They were all either very shortlived (under 3 weeks) or one night stands. He had sex with each one only once with the exception of one woman and with that one it was 3 times. He considered killing himself over that because it felt so premeditated. He didn't pursue women, he only was with those that pursued him. He let bad things happen to him rather than going out of his way to keep it from happening...much like a child would.

The difference between my H and yours is that he genuinely wanted to grow up and be in an adult relationship. When I met him at age 16, I told a girlfriend later in the day, that he was the man I was SUPPOSED to marry. I didn't know why, but I felt God's direction even back then. When he came to me and told me that he was in love with another woman in January of 2003 and I thought about how much we'd been falling in love all over again over the past 6 months it made no sense. I realized that he was running from something and that he was not himself. I was right. He was running FROM himself. He couldn't take the guilt and shame from what he'd done plus the guilt and shame put on him from his family of origin. I knew that God still wanted us together...that we had a work to do...that this man that I'd loved since he was a teenager was finally ready to do his personal work and grow up. I saw the good in him and why would I want to throw that away? After all, God never threw me away. My H NEVER denied the good in me...he just didn't feel worthy of being my H. He felt hopeless and damaged and it wasn't just about the affairs. He had felt that way since he was a little boy of seven who found his mother after a suicide attempt.

Now, he's a healed soul. I never in my wildest dreams believed that I would experience the love and tenderness that I get from him now. He adores me. Better yet, he loves himself. He's forgiving himself and taking on the shame and guilt that is his and giving back the shame from his family. He's been in counseling. He is a part of a men's group that has helped him tremendously. He thanks me daily for believing in him and seeing the good and letting him continue to share his life with me and our family. He willingly sets rules for himself, realizing that there will always be women who are willing out there. He has no women friends. He used to have all women friends because he didn't trust men. He now has reversed that and is very comfortable with his group of men.

I don't blame you for getting out of an alcoholic situation. I grew up in an alcoholic home. The problem is that we, as humans, will unconsciously always choose someone very much like our caregivers to marry. Why? To take care of our unfinished business from childhood. It's pretty much a given. I thought that I was choosing the exact opposite from my alcoholic father when I chose my H. He was a Christian, very committed to not having sex before marriage, very committed to having a family, very kind and tender, etc. All seemingly opposite of my dad, but in fact, inside he was damaged in much the same way as my dad and eventually he acted out against that pain and depression. That's what we all do.

Fortunately, I could see his "gold". I knew it was there. I knew that he was so close to letting it shine now that he was ready to take full responsibility for his behavior. Why would I want to let some other woman enjoy that instead of me? At maturity, my H is what all women want...trust me!!! He needs more affection that most women do, loves to do housework and puts the toilet seat down...lol!

I'm certainly not a doormat in this house. I am treated like a queen. My H must snuggle me and tell me he loves me at least 20 times a day. He's extremely tender toward me. He helps out in any way he can around the house. He's everything I've ever wanted in a spouse.

I wish we didn't have to go through the adultery to get to this point, but we did. Facing facts and reality is what growing up is all about. Forgiving an offense is sometimes as close as coming to grips with the fact that it happened and that you can do nothing to change it. What value would there have been in me starting over with another man? I have no desire to spend the rest of my years alone. I love having a partner to share my days with. My H and I grew up together...or at least I did. Now it's his turn. Was I so bad for sticking around and upholding my promise of "for better or for worse?"

You needed to get out because your H wouldn't change. My H was ripe for change! My kids are incredibly proud of him, even though they were extremely shocked and disappointed on D-day. At first, they wanted me to know that if I wanted to leave him, they'd support me in any way I needed. When I wanted to stay with him, they were concerned, but supportive. Now that we are 18 months into recovery, they are beaming with pride for both of us and they aren't shy about showing it!

Knowing all of their personality types, us being upfront with them about what we've been through may have very well saved them from having their own affairs in the future. They all know what to guard against now. Two of them are raising their own little families and they are so happy.

Stillwed

P.S. I really do believe that you are here for a reason. That reason may very well be to let go of the bitterness in your life. Try looking at that inner child thread with seriousness.

ROFLMAO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Somebody stop me, please. I'm tempted to engage in a battle of wits with a totally unarmed person. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I honest-to-God think she actually believes all this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Okay, one last stab at sanity: What is shame, and what is its purpose?

You know what, never mind. Come here and attempt "cure" us all from our "shameful" attempts to heal, learn, and grow. To follow our saviour's command to forgive "Not seven times, but seventy times seven." Oops, I forgot, the great and mighty all-knowing Hezat has declared we're only required, nay ALLOWED, to forgive cheating ONCE. LOL.

Alcoholism and affairs are both addictions. They seek to fill a spiritual void that can only be filled by God. Once the void is addressed, the addiction and codependency issues can be resolved. Or did you not bother to actually research our and our spouses "pathetic conditions" before attempting to "cure" us all? What exactly are your qualifications in "curing" us all? Ending your codependent marriage to an alcoholic after SEVENTEEN years? LOL.

No one said alcoholism was worse or better than infidelity. It is a poor coping skill that can be overcome if a person is motivated and given the right tools.

I am quite aware that I could have another relationship with another man if I chose to divorce my husband. I'm aware that I have Biblical grounds for divorce. What exactly is your point? Why would I ditch this relationship just at the point where we are both overcoming our unhealthy relationship habits? What makes you think that if I didn't investigate my own codependency issues, I wouldn't just find myself with another addict in another unhealthy relationship?

And if anyone thought less of me because of my choice to remain in my marriage, what the heck do I care? All it does is display their ignorance. All the people who know me even marginally well respect my choices. Ohhhh. I would care, if other people's opinions were what I drew my self-worth from. But since I am a unique and beloved child of the Creator of the universe, I don't really need it.

I would just laugh you off, but you seem quite determined to undermine the purpose of this site, which is to BUILD MARRIAGES. And you unfortunately picked the subboard with the most in-shock and impressionable people to vent your ignorance and bitterness on.

Should every marriage be saved after infidelity? Of course not! Should every effort be made to save a marriage where both partners are committed to overcoming their problems and building a healthy marriage, especially where there are children involved? Absolutely!

Who are you to take away peoples hope, Hezat? Especially in a set of experiences you have ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE WITH and absolutely no qualifications to judge?

Go away, or stay and learn something.

Hezat,

Building a wall of bitterness around you definitely protects you from being hurt. It keeps you from being vulnerable, but unfortunately, it also keeps you from being able to feel love. Don't you want to feel love? In order to do that, you are going to have to become vulnerable.

Anger is not the only emotion out there. Because you refuse to feel the other emotions, you are channeling them all through your anger. It's not pretty. It's not Christ-like in appearance. I'm not preachy on this board, but YOU profess to be a Bible believer.

Stillwed

Stillwed,

I read your post and have taken it to heart. You are right. I was bitter that I had to end my marriage the way I did. We were suppose to be together forever - he changed that.

I am so sorry to be taking this out on you ladies - you don't deserve this. Our husbands don't deserve us. Maybe I am jealous of you ladies, I don't know. Deep down I just feel that these men should not have taken us for granted.

Please forgive me for my lack of compassion. I guess you ladies saw right through me. I've learnt a lesson - if you don't have anything good to say, say nothing! Me and my big mouth.

Once again, I am sorry.

Kat72,

I did not read all you post, but I figure your response was hard. I deserve it. As I mentioned to Stillwed, I am very sorry.

I am still hurting even after 2 years of divorce. My H just messed up everything. Yeah I know I should let go and not go back to the past - it is painful.

Please, please forgive and forget everything I've said - they were said out of anger, mine, and it was wrong.

The mind surely can be treacherous. May God continue to bless you and your family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

hezat: My apologies for being sarcastic in my replies. I get quite protective of the souls here--souls who are hanging onto hope by a very bare thread sometimes. In my own experience, I had plenty of people after I "Just Found Out" who told me "once a cheater, always a cheater" and that even attempting a reconciliation was a hopeless, impossible mistake.

And when I look at what I have now, and how close I came to missing out on it had I taken that advice, it nearly takes my breath away. And whether my H came around or not, if I hadn't figured out why I accepted what I did for so long, I would have been stuck in the same TYPE of unhealthy relationship next time, just with a different partner. I'm sure of that.

Yes, our spouses should not have taken us for granted. No, none of us, you or the BSs here, deserved to have our futures and our lives cast into chaos by the people we loved and trusted. That's the nature of living in a fallen world. It's not fair--it just is.

I assume you may be here because you were hoping to find examples of a healthy, non-codependent relationship. And unfortunately, much of what you find is the opposite of that. MB, and particularly JFO, can be an emotional triage unit. But there are plenty of "old timers" here who have learned good relationship skills, the HARD way.

Even if my H, "fell off the wagon" and I chose to end our marriage, it has been worth it, because in the process, I've learned to trust myself, to love myself, and to relate to my loved ones in a healthier way.

The second half of my suggestion still stands: Stay and Learn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Kat72,

I will stay and learn.

Thank you.

Dear Hezat,

Apology accepted! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I truly hope you find happiness within yourself and maybe even with a partner some day. Getting emotionally healthy is the first step so that you can choose a partner based on something other than your woundedness!

You wrote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Our husbands don't deserve us. Maybe I am jealous of you ladies, I don't know. Deep down I just feel that these men should not have taken us for granted.
<hr /></blockquote>Amen!

You might find the Enneagram personality assessment fascinating as I have. When my H read about his type, the type Four, he was shocked. It had him pegged! It even said that he'd spend his life looking for someone to rescue him from his ordinary life! It was him all right! Now that he is in the healthy range of his type, he realizes how foolish it was to think that someone outside of himself could make him happy in life. He really "gets it".

There are online tests that you can take or there is a book called The Essential Enneagram by Daniels and Price with an excellent test in it that I feel is quite accurate. Here's a link to a good site to just see what the Enneagram is about:

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com

If I had to guess, I'd say you were an Eight or a One, but clearly I don't know you!! Once you discover your type, there are books available to teach you what to be aware of in yourself. That awareness helps you to gradually change your behavior as you have "ah-ha" moments regarding your current behavior or thought processes. It's really interesting at the very least.

Take care.

Stillwed

[ July 29, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]

Stillwed,

I will follow the link. Thanks again, and please, please do forgive my tart tongue.

Take care.

hezat,

I hope you do stay and learn, dont take that the wrong way, I dont mean it in a bad way. Actually I mean it with the best of intentions.

The reason I say this is because you remind me so much of myself its not even funny. I totally understand where your comming from and I know how it is to hurt so badly you cant see passed the pain, and it just pisses you off at the same time.

hezat I think it would really help you work passed all this if you would take the enneagram test and start learning more about yourself and why you have the feelings you do.

Yes, I admit, in the beginning I thought it was just a bunch of hoodoo voodoo crap too. I think I even called it snake oil or something LOL. Honestly, it did help me a great deal and especially with my anger.

I like you, have a great deal of anger problems. Knowing this, and all the other things I have learned from this site, and these people, has really helped a great deal. Wouldnt it feel better to release some of the anger you feel and cant seem to get rid of?

I am not talking down to you here, dont take any of this as me being or thinking I am better than you, or heck anyone here. I am just me, average ole hopes, and for some reason I looked at this and I saw someone that could benefit from some information. I know some of this stuff is a bit hard to swallow in the beginning. I dont like psych docs and a lot of stuff. The key here is to take what works for you and use it. To take bits and pieces and work out a plan custom made for you. Do what works for you, dont think there is just ONE way to do this, far from it.

I know your angry, I also know your very hurt. Pain and anger are actually the same thing. One is directed outward and the other inward. Some of us have the ability to direct inner pain outward and turn it into anger. I am good at that, sometimes when I am very hurt I come off as very angry and the words just dont come out right. Sound familiar?

I honestly think your an 8 like myself. 8s are really good people, and capable of so much good if they are healthy. Most are highly successful, and are capable of great things. They do have a good sense of justice and can be some of the best people when healthy. You do have to let your guard down a little and let people in though. Not everyone will hurt you.

Almost all these people here really do want to help. I am sure there are a few bad apples but for the most part, theres some really good people here, that, just like you, got hurt beyond words. Plus we all know your capable to taking care of any bad apples that come your way right?

If I am right, and you are an 8, you think in black and white. All or nothing, but the problem comes when there are grey areas. 8s dont do so well with them. I have struggled with this, I still do sometimes. Grey areas just aggervate me because I dont know what to think and can get lost and confused along the way, then I get frustrated about that, toss it all out the window and go back to black and white again. Ring any bells?

Anyway before this post becomes a book, I hope you do stay and learn and I hope your having a better day today.

Hopes

Wow. Hmmm... I can't believe I just read this whole thing. I thought the Dr. Phil article was great and appreciate it being posted. I don't know what to make of the viciousness in Hezat's posts, then suddenly a complete 180 turnaround to an apologetic person. ? I hope it's sincere.

I'm too tired to say anymore right now and kinda just speechless. Hang in there all of you.

That was incredible! Kat72...that was amazing.
I have been that angry before and that obnoxious. I also did it on this board and several people stood up to me. I thank them and I thank you too!
Anger is such an awful and (in this day in age) nearly useless emotion.

I'm with LME: really don't know what to say, but "Wow." Can't beieve I got through the whole post. Which brings me to a question: How does everyone find/make the time for reading all of this?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />