Myrta: Have you got a few moments? - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

Myrta,

I wanted to start a thread for you. I realize you feel you don't want to post here, but I am hoping you change your mind. What I want to talk about is NOT the A per se', but rather things about now and the future.

I wanted to ask you what you have learned about yourself, your H, your marriage, your desires for life? I wanted to ask you how this has changed you and what are the good things that have come from this in regard to YOU and how you see things?

I want to discuss with you, some ideas about what your H is looking for when He wants you to open up.

In short, I want to discuss learning, perspective, and ideas for the future with you.

I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Why do you want to start a thread about my confusion???
What have I learned about myself?
I have learned that I am a horrible woman, that does not deserve her husband, now more than ever!
I have learned that the cheating thing is much more serious than I ever imagined!
I have learned that my husband is much more emotional than I ever thought!
PLANS FOR MY FUTURE???
Right now, is my future. I take day to day with my husband, with myself, with my family, with my concience.
I have not make any plans for my future, it seems pretty bleak to me!
Take care
Myrta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Myrta -

Good to see you again. You are not a bad woman, but a good woman. Even your husband says so.

Your future is not bleak, but can be brighter than ever. Please think about JL's questions. He is very good at helping people sort things out.

Myrta--

I have lurked on your thread and Stanley's for a little bit now, although I spend most of my time in the EN boards.

I've been reading, rivetted to your story, unlike others because of you, Myrta. Because of how *good* it is to watch you grow and better yourself. Honestly, Myrta, it is very good to see you regain with ferocity your love for your husband.

People make foolish mistakes, some more than others. I have certainly made my own. You are showing what separates a good person from a bad person, though. The ability to recognize a mistake for what it is, to try to recover from it, and try to make amends.

God be with you, Myrta!

Myrta,

Ummm, just as I thought. Ok, then it is time for the lashes with the wet noodle (I'll save the 2x4 for later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have learned that I am a horrible woman, that does not deserve her husband, now more than ever!<hr /></blockquote>Let's see a horrible woman huh?? I don't think so, you don't get off that easy. Your H thinks he deserves you, in fact he wants ALL OF YOU. Heck, the man is starving for you. Myrta don't you see that? That is why he is struggling so, he loves you. You clearly are NOT a horrible woman. You don't make a habit of this sort of thing do you? Of course not. So stop that line of thinking.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have learned that the cheating thing is much more serious than I ever imagined!<hr /></blockquote>Excellent, now you need to learn how to rebuild this marriage into something that satisfies you and your H. It can and will be done Myrta, we are not letting you off that easy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have learned that my husband is much more emotional than I ever thought!<hr /></blockquote>Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I think it is a good thing. But, now you know what he is asking for when he says he wants you to open up to him. I'll go into detail in a moment, but he needs your reassurances. Don't worry he will start believing them again. You just keep giving them to him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />PLANS FOR MY FUTURE???
Right now, is my future. I take day to day with my husband, with myself, with my family, with my concience.<hr /></blockquote>That is a good thing in many ways, but it does leave you a little short on smiles and happiness doesn't it?? Time will help this as you two work through things, but having a plan is a good thing.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have not make any plans for my future, it seems pretty bleak to me! <hr /></blockquote>It does? Why? Talk to me Myrta, why does your future seem bleak? Is it because you are depressed? If so you might want to consider anti-D's for awhile. Just think about it. Myrta your future is NOT bleak. It has the potential to be a very very good one. You now know your H like you never have and he is hanging in there. It will take awhile but don't give up and he won't. You two need to plan your next vacation together, what you will do for the holidays in a few months. Give each other plenty to look forward to.

Have you figured out what Stanley wants when he says he wants you to open up?? I have been thinking about this for a few days now and I wanted to offer my thoughts for your consideration.

Look at what he seems stuck on. It seems to me that you clearly indicated that you wanted OM and to be with him. In my mind this is a clue. Further, you stated that he had sort of not been himself or withdrawn from the marriage before all of this started. Now this suggests to me he was not getting from you what he needed and what he needed is not what he USED to need.

Myrta, it has been my observation as us guys get older, we change and in ways perhaps more than women. We go from focusing on a career and sex and family, to starting to see the end of our careers, the slowing down of sex, the children leaving and we like women ask "was I good enough?" We lose our confidence and we need to be told that we are wanted. Sound familiar? It is what women say as well.

Myrta, what I think (and I may be wrong) is that what Stanley wants is for you to need him in your life, for you to be able to tell him you love him and need him. I know you don't feel so secure right now, but I suspect and again I may be wrong, that he needs a lot of reassurance from you and he needed it before any of this happened. If you think about your emails with OM, they were doing nothing else but reassuring him. You H wants that, needs that.

He is more emotional than you thought, he is more sensitive than you thought, and he is and always has been more dependent on you than you thought. Myrta he is still all of these things, and that is why he hurts like he does. But you can recover all of this and get more, if you start to see what he really needs. He needs you to "love" him as in the verb to "love", as the vows in a marriage mean. The marriage vows are not talking about feelings they are talking about the voluntary action of loving another. You can do this, and I think you are.

Myrta, you got lost for awhile, but you are back. Smile at that, rejoice in it, and your smile will help your H more than you can realize.

No need to be down on yourself, we did that for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Now it is time to build up and rebuild. You have a lot to offer your H, your family, your friends so don't hide out, get out, and get with it. OK?

Please think about this. One final thing realize that Stanley was a little hot because I was pushing HIS BUTTONS. I was challenging his thinking, and I wanted him to start to focus outward, not just inward. I hope that his time away on this trip will allow him to see this. It was NOT about you, but him accepting the obvious. ONce he does that, just as the steps in grieving a death, he can move to recovery.

You may not understand this, but it is Stanley we need to work on: you, I, the people on this site. Hang in there, you can do this. And Myrta, SMILE <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am betting it is a beautiful smile and Stanley will love to see it.

God Bless,

JL

JUST LEARNING <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
tHE WOman you described to my husband, is indeed a horrible person. I can see it! Gosh, the woman you talk about, I DONT LIKE AT ALL!!! She seems like a callous,uncaring,selfish,with no values kinda of woman.
JL----How can I possibly be a rock for my husband, when I feel like I am in the brink of a precipice!! I feel like I am walking in a tigh-rope-trapeze and there is no net under to catch me, if I do a false move! Thats how I feel.
I just read my husbands last post, and he said it himself. How can I know, he is not going to change his mind, 3-6-9 months down the road? See, I know, right now, he thinks and feels he wants to stay married to me, but I dont think he can handle this!!! It is too much for him to bear. And it comes back to the perfection thing. There cannot be any mars or imperfections in our lives, everything has to be perfect on his "eyes". O therwise, it does not work!! I have always believe, that pure perfection especially in a marriage DOES NOT EXIST!!! Even the happiest couple, has things that they would like to change, but they accept that ,thats the way life is. NOT 100% PERFECT!!!
I wish I could be what he wants me to be right now, strong, loving, sexual 24-7, convincing, but I just cannot do it. I dont feel that way. I am not a hypocrite, he knows that!!! I could put on an act, to try to make him happy, but he will know that I am not into it! Is like when sometimes, I really dont want to make love, but I do it anyways, but I am not really into it. Dont get me wrong, at the end, I have a great time, but at the beginning, and thru it, I am not myself, and he knows it. He likes it when I am 100% enjoying what we are doing. Right now, I know I am not 100% myself yet. I need time, to sort myself, to feel right about myself. To feel that I am not dirty and a bad woman, because I was unfaithful to him. He tells me many times, that your marriage is not special anymore, because I did it with another man <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> But I still think it is, because my husband was the one that took my virginity not the OM!!!
You tell me, JL, why should I smile and be happy right now? I dont feel happy, knowing that at any moment, my husband is going to tell me, "pack your bags, you are out of here"!!! Thats how I feel, I feel unsure, insecure about my future with him. I am usually very strong about decisions, and problems, but now it seems like this one is TOO BIG, for me to handle, for US to handle. I have always try to solve the problems that arise with our children. Would not tell my husband, so he wouldnot worry, so he would not lose any sleep over those problems. Because I know, he does not like problems,or dilemmas in his life. I know that, he knows that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I really dont know what to do, what to say, how to act with him!!! Yeah, yeah, you say, answer the questions he asks, and he will be at peace,happy, but THAT IS NOT ENOUGH> I have told him, many things, more , I am sure than any other WW here, but yet, is not enough.
Just now, while I am writing this post, I am talking to one of our daughters online, and she is praising me as a mother, as a woman, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And it makes me sad, if she only knew what kind of woman her mother really is!!!
Take care
Myrta

Oh my God, Myrta, you are so hard on yourself. Your husband wants you, loves you, and always will. He tells us many times here what a good woman, good mother, good wife you have been.

You are not a horrible person, please get over that.

Believer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You are indeed a great, beautiful person. You always manage to make me feel better about myself. I truly believe you mean those words even though I dont know you in person <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I feel the truth in them when YOU write them. I cannot say the same when my husband writes them, or tells me.
I wish I could be as optimistic as you are. I wish you were close by so I can come and get "pep talks" from you!
Thank YOU
Myrta

BELIEVER===
SORRY ABOUT THE DOUBLE POST!!!
BUT, ANYWAYS I DOUBLE MEAN IT!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Myrta,

I agree with believer. You are not defined by any one particular thing that you did - your daughter is exactly right in thinking what she thinks. She thinks that because of the way you treated her in your relationship with her - and that is just as much a part of who you are as your relationship with Stanley. In any case, Stanley does not think that you are a bad person.
Maybe you can take some deep breaths and start doing some nice things for yourself - hobbies, things that you are good at, favours for friends or for your kids.

Myrta------------ I told you you this AM in the airport THAT I HAVE NO PLANS FOR DIVORCE AND THAT I DO NOT ANTICIPATE A CHANGE OF MIND. I am 500% sure I want to stay married. I don't know how else to say it. I think that post by TMCM saying that many BS change their minds got to you. I WILL NOT CHANGE MY MIND, NEVER! You would have to go back to the OM for me to change my mind and I believe you are done with the OM.

Myrta------ you are the only woman I ever loved, I don't want to start over. You have filled all my needs all my life. I would have to be a dummy to leave you. In fact the OM said in one of those emails I intercepted that I would have to be out of my mind to leave you. Even the OM understood my decision!

I beg you to listen to JL. I think he has the key and in the end we are going ton be very happy (I am planning to do so, I don't know about you).

CIAO from South Beach

[ September 30, 2004, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

Aaaaah. Ain't love sweet. Myrta - check out the MB picture album, and you will see me in real life. Also find some pictures of you and your husband. And post them.

Myrta my comments about how some BS's are unable to handle the emotional rollercoaster and end up leaving and divorcing their WS, DO NOT apply to Stanley. I am not saying this to make you feel better, I am telling you this because it is the truth. BS's that can't handle their WS's affair DO NOT come to MB and post. The folks here [BS and WS] are a breed apart and are heroic in their efforts to save and rebuild their marriages in rising above their pain [BS] and remorse [WS]. Folks like you and your Stanley.

Believer----where do I see the pictures of all of you? Kiwi also told me about those pictures, but I cannot find them!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Myrta

TooMuchCoffeeMan--- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Oh,no,no, I did not say that in my post because of what you said. Those are my real fears, I had them since day one. We used to post somewhere else, and all the people there, all very bitter people, would say to me, that EVERYONE eventually changes their mind, and that everything that you say is use against YOU!!! Meaning, that everything, that I would tell to my H about the affair, he will use against me in the future. And then leave me!!
I know my husband loves me, I know that, but...this is a very hard,.unbereable thing for him to take!
Thank you for you comments!
Myrta

JUST LEARNING!!!!

WHERE ARE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I NEED A GOOD POST FROM YOU!! A POSITIVE ONE, NOT A DEPRESSING ONE!!!

Myrta,

Well, you will get what I think but I hope what I think will help you. You said <blockquote>quote:<hr />JUST LEARNING
tHE WOman you described to my husband, is indeed a horrible person. I can see it! Gosh, the woman you talk about, I DONT LIKE AT ALL!!! She seems like a callous,uncaring,selfish,with no values kinda of woman.<hr /></blockquote>Yup, she was just as you describe. But, Myrta if you believe in the "fog" of an affair, then you also must understand that it affects what people say and do. The woman as described does NOT exist any longer. That is the point of affairs, they are fantasy, people do strange and sometime very painful things while in an affair, but that is NOT usually them. Don't you see that is why the whole site exists, why Harley wrote these books.

He observed that most affairs end, and when they end and the fantasy is offer the WS often becomes someone their spouse can love and does love. His feeling was that too many people quit on their marriage while a spouse was in the affair, and if they hung in there, the affair would end and then the marriage could be rebuilt. And it is true it can.

Your H's biggest fear is that you are not out of the fog and thus OM is still present. Notice he does not fear YOU, he fears the fog. He knows and I think you are showing that the woman he has loved for most of his life is back. She is there.

Do you see why I was pushing his buttons. He had to face the reality of the "fog" and your actions while in it so that he could accept that you are back as the fog clears.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />JL----How can I possibly be a rock for my husband, when I feel like I am in the brink of a precipice!! I feel like I am walking in a tigh-rope-trapeze and there is no net under to catch me, if I do a false move! Thats how I feel.<hr /></blockquote>I know you feel this way. It is normal and that is why recovery doesn't happen in a day. You have to heal as does your H. You need help with this and guess who can help you most? Your H, but you must listen to him. Don't just listen to his rants, but listen to him when he tells you and shows you he loves you. You will begin to see the loving actions dominate the rants. By the same token, now that you feel the way you do, consider that this is pretty much how he feels. He was a "rock" and now he feels like gravel. Who can help him the most? You. He needs to listen to you and not just to the "fog" talk but to the times you tell him you love him. As you have seen the fog talk is diminishing, but I sense you are seeing and feeling your love for him more each day.

Do you see the process Myrta? You are doing better than you think. You just need to listen to your H and hear about his love for you.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just read my husbands last post, and he said it himself. How can I know, he is not going to change his mind, 3-6-9 months down the road? <hr /></blockquote>You cannot know, any more than you know you won't get hit by a truck or discover one of you has a terminal disease in 3-6-9 months. But, you can act on the now and that has influence on the future. You said yourself.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />See, I know, right now, he thinks and feels he wants to stay married to me, but I dont think he can handle this!!!<hr /></blockquote>You know he wants you and loves you, but you don't think he is strong enough? Why? because he is showing he has emotions, feelings, pain, love? You are making a huge disrespectful judgement here. Stop it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It is too much for him to bear. And it comes back to the perfection thing. There cannot be any mars or imperfections in our lives, everything has to be perfect on his "eyes". O therwise, it does not work!![quote]

Myrta he knows you are not perfect, and he has known for years he is not perfect although in his profession he needs to be as near perfect as he can get. Don't you see the OPPORTUNITIES to grow you marriage to a new level, now that the perfection thing has been firmly put to rest.

Myrta, you have been given an opportunity that many don't really ever get. I don't recommend your methods <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> but the result is that you NOW KNOW YOUR H LOVES YOU DEEPLY. He is showing this to you. You have been given the gift of KNOWING he loves you, whereas many of us guess and hope our spouses love us.

[quote] I have always believe, that pure perfection especially in a marriage DOES NOT EXIST!!! Even the happiest couple, has things that they would like to change, but they accept that ,thats the way life is. NOT 100% PERFECT!!!<hr /></blockquote>So knowing this can you accept Stanley as your H? He is not perfect, he failed you by your own words. He has not been "stoic", he has been angry, he has been hurt, he has probably cried about this. Nope not perfect by a long run, so can you accept that he is NOT perfect. You say you can accept it, so why would you quit now? You may not think he is perfect, and you may not think the marriage is perfect, but you know it can be improved, and you KNOW he loves you deeply. Myrta it is time you decided to fight for this marriage although it is not perfect. No sense sitting somewhere pouting about it or feeling sorry for yourself. It is time to take that "imperfect" H of yours in your arms and love him, and tell him you do. He needs you to accept him.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I wish I could be what he wants me to be right now, strong, loving, sexual 24-7, convincing, but I just cannot do it. I dont feel that way.<hr /></blockquote>So let me see are you saying that because he is not perfect you cannot love him? That you don't love him? All he has ever wanted is for you to love him and tell him you do. All he has ever wanted to do is be a man you respected and loved. So what is holding you back? What is it that you don't "feel that way." about?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am not a hypocrite, he knows that!!! I could put on an act, to try to make him happy, but he will know that I am not into it! Is like when sometimes, I really dont want to make love, but I do it anyways, but I am not really into it. Dont get me wrong, at the end, I have a great time, but at the beginning, and thru it, I am not myself, and he knows it. He likes it when I am 100% enjoying what we are doing. Right now, I know I am not 100% myself yet. I need time, to sort myself, to feel right about myself. To feel that I am not dirty and a bad woman, because I was unfaithful to him.<hr /></blockquote>What are you not into Myrta? What are you holding back and why? Why would telling him you love him be hypocritical? This is NOT about whether you are dirty and a bad woman. This is about your view of HIM, not yourself. He is the one that determines if you are dirty and bad, and frankly from what he says that is not the case. He fears you will NOT choose him, not you being a "bad" woman.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He tells me many times, that your marriage is not special anymore, because I did it with another man But I still think it is, because my husband was the one that took my virginity not the OM!!!<hr /></blockquote>Myrta, giving your virginity to your H was a very special moment. However, your marriage is NOT special right NOW. Because you have not commited to it and neither of you have healed from this. Myrta, the marriage needs to be rebuilt so that it is SPECIAL and it can be with both of you deciding that is what you want. HOWEVER, while the marriage right now is not special, YOU are still very special to him. Do you see the difference?

Myrta marriage is a vehicle where two become one, and yet they retain their own identity. You are so special to your H that he is willing to endure this pain and continue to love you. Have you figured that out yet? IF not you should really think about this. He is doing things that surprise you, but make no mistake he is still married to you, still loves you, and wants to make this marriage work BECAUSE you are so special. What needs to be made "special" again is the marriage and that will take your cooperation and help.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You tell me, JL, why should I smile and be happy right now? I dont feel happy, knowing that at any moment, my husband is going to tell me, "pack your bags, you are out of here"!!! Thats how I feel, I feel unsure, insecure about my future with him. I am usually very strong about decisions, and problems, but now it seems like this one is TOO BIG, for me to handle, for US to handle.<hr /></blockquote>Myrta, do you realize how big a DJ you just stated? You don't KNOW your H is going to leave. Now perhaps you have plans to continue the affair, or to be so mean to him that he leaves, in which case you can strongly suspect he will leave, but you don't KNOW.

More importantly you are not listening to him. You are judging him without listening to what he says. He is saying he loves you, he wants your love. He is NOT the one that is thinking about leaving, is that what you are thinking? Are you thinking about running from this problem because it seems too big for you to handle?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have always try to solve the problems that arise with our children. Would not tell my husband, so he wouldnot worry, so he would not lose any sleep over those problems. Because I know, he does not like problems,or dilemmas in his life. I know that, he knows that!
I really dont know what to do, what to say, how to act with him!!! Yeah, yeah, you say, answer the questions he asks, and he will be at peace,happy, but THAT IS NOT ENOUGH> I have told him, many things, more , I am sure than any other WW here, but yet, is not enough.<hr /></blockquote>You protecting him was a very nice thing to do, but has it occured to you that you also were cutting him out of your life. Has it occured to you that he is capable of solving very difficult problems whether he wants to or not? I am sure he would MUCH rather NOT have this issue and problem in his life, but he is going to solve it.

Of course you don't know what to do or say or how to act. You have never been in this situation before, and neither has he. But Myrta I will tell you this, if you do anything do this...act with love toward him, and the rest will come as you two sort yourselves out.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Just now, while I am writing this post, I am talking to one of our daughters online, and she is praising me as a mother, as a woman, And it makes me sad, if she only knew what kind of woman her mother really is!!!
<hr /></blockquote>Myrta, remember when I said there were costs to this. Sadly you are finding this out. But, you know you are a good mother to your daughter and all of your children. What kind of mother does she have? Well, I will offer you my opinion if you would like to hear it.

She has a mother that loves her and her siblings.

She has a mother that has loved their father for years.

She has a mother that is human, and has made a big mistake.

She has a mother that recognizes this mistake and will work to overcome it.

She has a mother that now loves her H again and now values marriage and its vows as perhaps she has not in the most recent years.

She has a mother that knows the value of forgiveness as she seeks it and gives it.

But, Myrta, what I hope she has is a mother that is strong enough to forgive her H his failing, and strong enough to overcome her own. NOW THAT is a woman that is worthy of a lot of respect. I think you will prove to be that woman.

Must go and do some work.

God Bless,

JL

Myrta - Are you doing okay without your husband around? I hope you will check in again today.

JUST LEARNING===I HAVE read your post several times, trying to absorbe everything you tell me. To truly understand the meaning of your words.
You tell me that the horrible woman that I described, does not exist any longer. This is a new woman, or I should say my old self. Out or almost out of the fog, seeing things clearly for what they really are.
One question that I have for you, Mr.JL...are all affairs fantasy, are all affairs based on lies? Has there been a happy ending for someone having an affair? Or do they go on and on, doing the same mistakes to the new people, been unfaithful to them,etc,etc?
I am not saying that my A was not a fantasy, or Disneyland like my husband likes to call it. But I just cannot believe, that no one will ever be happy if they go on and try to live with the OM or OW!!! Even with all the deceit and lies involved, there must be some happy endings out there!!! Anybody here, with that ending?
Or everybody here was living in a fantasy, not feeling real love, or in this fog, that you would not even see yourself!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
My husband fears the fog? No, I think my H fears me!!! He has told me himself. He gets sweaty palms sometimes when he is close to me, like he is some impressionable teenager!!! I make him uncomfortable. And that scares me!!! Gosh, we have been together forever!!!! Just because I derailed from our marriage does not mean,, I am or was another woman. I have always been the same!!! I mean, it is kind of sweet ,cute, to see him nervous in front of me, like he is just knowing me now!! He looks at me like he has never seen me before <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I still see him like my same old husband, the onlly difference is that he is more passionate, more humble with me, he is more talkative, he is more into me, but he is still my Husband. I dont look at him as a stranger,even though he is acting different!!!!
I do listen to him, or I try to. But sometimes the way he puts his words, makes me want to back away from him. Makes me want to close up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> He tells me that he is not angry, that he does not want to fight, but yet I hear his tension, I see anger in his eyes. I know him very well.
I know nobody knows whats the future holding for us. But most of the people, with normal marriages, have a pretty good idea, they are fearing the break up. Why should I thinking that be a DJ???? That is my oppinion!! I could say the same thing, when you or him say things about me, and I dont agree with them.
I am not saying that I am holding back my love for him. I just cannot let myself go, because I see that things are too uncertain, too shaky, too weird. And that makes me withdraw to myself. The love that I offer him now, is the love that I can let myself give him NOW. I do love my husband, sometimes I look at him, and see him and cannot believe that he is here with me,that he still loves me, and I get filled with all this love,affection for him. And I would like to kiss him, tell him, but I get scared. The only times, that I let myself go, is when we are in church, in front of God. I feel so close to him, so in tune with him.
No, I dont have plans of continuing the affair. And NO I am not planning to quit US. My fear is that he will be the one quitting on US. I dont get scare with challenges of life, but I know my husband, and I know he has so many thoughts,ideas going thru his mind, and I KNOW, one of them, is not trying anymore!!!
JL,,thank you so much for taking the time, to try to help ME, us!!! You are indeed a very smart person, very knowledgable!! I want to grow up to bejust like YOU <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Bye for now.
Myrta

[ October 01, 2004, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]

Believer.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I am doing fine. I feel a bit more relax, since my husband is not battering me with things and questions. So, it is a nice little break. Although he calls me several times a day! He wants me to be there in Florida with him!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Where can I see the pictures of all of you???
How are you doing??
Myrta

[ October 01, 2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]

Here it is.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/faith1again/album?.tok=phk6YYBBZMumqobB&.dir=/37e6&.src=ph

Myrta:

But I just cannot believe, that no one will ever be happy if they go on and try to leave with the OM or OW!!! Even with all the deceit and lies involved, there must be some happy endings out there!!! Anybody here, with that ending?
Or everybody here was living in a fantasy

This is what you said when I told you about the statistics regarding the abysmal failure of relationships that were formed as a result of an affair. This is what the OM still says today! He will be different, he cannot believe the relationship will fail. Heck , he does not even believe he was having an affair. He is dead wrong and we all know it. The OM would make your life a true living hell.

I guess some affairs are so called exit affairs where the WW or WH was going to leave the marriage anyway. But even in this best case scenario the likelihood of success is very low.

Myrta--- you sensed a life with the OM was impossibility without having knowledge of the stats.

Stanley, I say this in all kindness.

Don't educate Myrta. It is an LB and makes you sound patronising.

She's a supremely sensible and obviously intelligent woman. She doesn't need to be told the obvious.

Sorry, if that was a 2x4 but at least it came from me and not Myrta. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jen

kiwij------- you are right! I just have a hard time with OM and all this stuff. It consumes me 24/7.

Sorry Myrta!

[ October 01, 2004, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

Stanley - don't worry about it. That happens to all of us. Our world has been rocked.

I know you have a hard time with it all, Stan. It's all a rather steep learning curve for all of us.

But you have JL, Believer and me on the case. How can you fail? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And you know you have a damn fine wife there as well.

BTW have you read any of Bob Pure's posts on GQII? Well worth a read, if you haven't already.

Jen

[ October 01, 2004, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]

Myrta - Did you check out the MB picture album?

Believer, you're just trying to make Mytra say it's a cool bike. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jen

BELIEVER!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> very cool indeed!!!
You still got the fun bike??? It must be fun to ride it!!
Thank you for the thread! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> But I thought I was also going to see the one and only JUST LEARNING!!!
THANKS

MYRTA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Kiwi---nice to see you back posting! Sorry if I hit a raw nerve in my previous post to you!
Only you and I, know what we are going thru. It is not an easy ride, even when you realize that it was all fantasy, that it was all lies. It is very scary that you and I , and others (CC,etc,etc) for NOTHING!!! For just a mirage!!!

Keep on talking and admonishing my husband! I like it!!!

Myrta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Myrta, someone once posted a picture of Captain Picard of Star Trek and said this is what JL looks like. LOL.

Jen

Kiwi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Oh really? Captain Piccard! Ok
ThATS funny!

Thanks

Myrta

Myrta- Yeah - what's up with that? No JL, and he has been posting here forever, and one of the best. Maybe he doesn't have a digital picture of himself.

You have any pictures of you and family?

Sadly the bike is gone with WH. But OW is enjoying it.

Believer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> That is too bad your husband took that nice bike with him!!! Hopefully you have not seen them riding it together!! That will make me very angry!! But, I think you are beyond getting angry anymore, and thats good!!
Yeah, I was looking forward to see a pic of JL!! I am trying to put the way he writes into an image of how he looks like!!!
You look like you are really fun to be around. Your H is going to regret what he did. Dont stop been positive and happy because of what he did!!
Take care!
Myrta

Myrta - Glad to see you posting and helping others. That is very hard for many women to do when they are going through all of this themselves.

Is your husband still gone? Hope you are enjoying the peace and quiet.

I do miss riding. We used to go to rallies every weekend almost. But at least WH did get the new Harley he always wanted.

Myrta,

Let's just say I am not photogenic <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> hence no picture. Heck, that is a pretty good looking bunch of folks there, and I definitely don't want to detract from it.

You asked a few questions so I thought I would do my best to answer them. You asked <blockquote>quote:<hr />JUST LEARNING===I HAVE read your post several times, trying to absorbe everything you tell me. To truly understand the meaning of your words.
You tell me that the horrible woman that I described, does not exist any longer. This is a new woman, or I should say my old self. Out or almost out of the fog, seeing things clearly for what they really are.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, that is what I am saying. Yet, it is clear to you that you are capable of being that other woman. Hence your H's fears. But, Myrta things are more complicated than that as you well know. I realize you had deep feelings for your OM. I would offer you this very strange perspective to think about. If you had a two year affair with someone you did not care about, THEN I would be really worried. I Know your H worries about your emotional attachment to OM, and he should, but if you had NONE, he would have reason to worry as well, because then the issues would be very very deepseated and not ameanable to the MB approach. So there is as usual "good news" and "bad news". Do you see what I am saying?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />One question that I have for you, Mr.JL...are all affairs fantasy,<hr /></blockquote>Yes, they are fantasy in that the world does not know about them, the couple in the affair is NOT required to support their affair partner, financially, emotionally, with children, family, etc. So the interaction is usually about one person in the affair meeting only a FEW needs of the other person. Now while in the affair these needs seem to be the most important, but when the affair ends it is often seen that other needs are important as well, and the spouse meets those and is willing to meet the ones that were not well met.

So the "fantasy" of an affair is always there, in that the situation is surrounded by secrecy, limited needs being met. That does not mean the feelings are not real, they are. It does not mean the sex was not real it was. But, like a marriage it will not stand the light of day if the couple is NOT addressing the others needs. And by definition they usually don't.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> are all affairs based on lies?<hr /></blockquote>Well, Myrta, ALL is pretty big, but didn't you lie to Stanley both directly and by implication? Didn't you lie to him to go see his mother, when you wanted to meet OM? Frankly I have not encountered an affair that was not based on lies to those around the affairee's and even within the affair itself. So I quess my answer is yes, although someone will probably post that their spouse knew everything, and was told what was going on. You make the determination.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Has there been a happy ending for someone having an affair?<hr /></blockquote>This depends on what you mean by a happy ending. If you mean the affair couple getting divorced from their spouse and living happily ever after? The statistics say only about 3% of affairs lead to a successful marriage (I beleive that is defined as lasting 5 years or longer).

If you mean the current marriage can be rebuild and the couple end up happy, then yes there are many cases here.

If you mean that the affair was an exit affair and the person used the affair to get out of the marriage and ended up happy with another person, perhaps NOT the OM/OW, then yes it seems to happen but I don't know the data on it.

I have read that most people that have an affair and divorce eventually state that they wished they had stayed married to the original partner. I cannot tell you the numbers on that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Or do they go on and on, doing the same mistakes to the new people, been unfaithful to them,etc,etc?<hr /></blockquote>I suspect that what you have mentioned are a few of the reasons that marriages to the affair partner don't work. There is a saying that <blockquote>quote:<hr />If you marry the person you are having the affair, you are creating a vacancy for your position. <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />I am not saying that my A was not a fantasy, or Disneyland like my husband likes to call it. But I just cannot believe, that no one will ever be happy if they go on and try to live with the OM or OW!!! Even with all the deceit and lies involved, there must be some happy endings out there!!! Anybody here, with that ending?<hr /></blockquote>As I said about 3% fall into the class you mention. A small percentage of people in an affair actually marry. Of those that do, the failure rate is about 75%. It is a small number, because little is learned and there is a huge trust issue..."if they will do it with you, they will do it to you" is another common statement.

I think the real reason is that people expect things from relationships that are not realistic and the new person ends up not able to provide it any better than the first spouse.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Or everybody here was living in a fantasy, not feeling real love, or in this fog, that you would not even see yourself!!!<hr /></blockquote>Hard to know what to say, but the "fog" is about making unrealistic decisions based on partial or faulty data. It is not about the feelings being real. Hence Harley's strong statements about No Contact. He believes that some embers of the affair can exist for a persons life time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My husband fears the fog? No, I think my H fears me!!! He has told me himself. He gets sweaty palms sometimes when he is close to me, like he is some impressionable teenager!!! I make him uncomfortable. And that scares me!!! <hr /></blockquote>Myrta, in someways he is a teenager right now. He is very uncertain about himself. He doesn't understand what is going on. He wants to impress but he doesn't know how. Sound familiar?? It should.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Gosh, we have been together forever!!!! Just because I derailed from our marriage does not mean,, I am or was another woman. I have always been the same!!!<hr /></blockquote>Well, Myrta you opened up new vista's with your derailment and so your are not the same completely. You care about him, you say you love him, and that you want him, but what he KNOWS for a fact is that you can chose another man and love him. That is pretty unsettling don't you think?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I mean, it is kind of sweet ,cute, to see him nervous in front of me, like he is just knowing me now!! He looks at me like he has never seen me before I still see him like my same old husband, the onlly difference is that he is more passionate, more humble with me, he is more talkative, he is more into me, but he is still my Husband. I dont look at him as a stranger,even though he is acting different!!!!<hr /></blockquote>Well Myrta he is different, just as you are. If nothing else he is far more sensitive to you and to his own vulnerability. You may not feel more vulnerable, but he does. Don't you see why he is focusing on OM? He is trying to figure out how to control this situation. He thinks if he can get you to dislike OM, he will be safer. He thinks if he can understand what OM had that he did not, he can be more like OM so that you will be happy with him.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I do listen to him, or I try to. But sometimes the way he puts his words, makes me want to back away from him. Makes me want to close up. He tells me that he is not angry, that he does not want to fight, but yet I hear his tension, I see anger in his eyes. I know him very well.<hr /></blockquote>I am sure you are right he is angry, but you must realize that anger is a "secondary" reaction driven by "primary" ones, such as fear, frustration, pain, etc. So what you see is NOT what is really there. He is tense as you are or would be because he does not understand sooo much. He doesn't understand if he is really a man you want or not. These things go through peoples minds Myrta. So what you are really seeing are his struggles with himself. Not so much you.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know nobody knows whats the future holding for us. But most of the people, with normal marriages, have a pretty good idea, they are fearing the break up. Why should I thinking that be a DJ????

That is my oppinion!!<hr /></blockquote>You are entitled to your opinions, but if you make decisions based on what YOU THINK your H is thinking, then it is a DJ. It is very dangerous to the marriage. Do you want an example? Consider why you had the affair, you claimed it was because you felt your H did not care or love you, but clearly you were wrong. But an A occured based on this right? If not correct me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I could say the same thing, when you or him say things about me, and I dont agree with them.<hr /></blockquote>Well, first of all I cannot LB you because I am not married to you. Further NOT agreeing is not a DJ. It is making a decision based on an assumption. I say something to you that you don't agree with, and you correct me, that is cannot be a DJ, because I now KKNOW how you are thinking or your view of things. Now if your H says something really tacky, that is a plain old LB, and he needs to stop it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am not saying that I am holding back my love for him. I just cannot let myself go, because I see that things are too uncertain, too shaky, too weird. And that makes me withdraw to myself.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, this is normal and it is called withdrawal. However, as you become more confident with your H, I do hope you can "let yourself go", it is what he is seeking for reassurance.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The love that I offer him now, is the love that I can let myself give him NOW. I do love my husband, sometimes I look at him, and see him and cannot believe that he is here with me,that he still loves me, and I get filled with all this love,affection for him. And I would like to kiss him, tell him, but I get scared.<hr /></blockquote>Myrta, if ever there was a time to kiss, that would be it. And you can tell hm you are scared as well. It is not an LB to do both, in fact that is precisely the type of "opening up" that will help both of you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The only times, that I let myself go, is when we are in church, in front of God. I feel so close to him, so in tune with him.
No, I dont have plans of continuing the affair. And NO I am not planning to quit US. My fear is that he will be the one quitting on US. I dont get scare with challenges of life, but I know my husband, and I know he has so many thoughts,ideas going thru his mind, and I KNOW, one of them, is not trying anymore!!!<hr /></blockquote>Well, Myrta I am glad you are close to your H while in church. It is a good place to start. But let me explain something, if Stanley came in tomorrow and told you he could NOT try anymore, the marriage would not be over. You could do the trying for the both of you. You could carry him for awhile until he regains his energy and focus. After all to some degree that is what he did and is doing, until you reengage fully in this marriage. So fearing this is not necessary.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />JL,,thank you so much for taking the time, to try to help ME, us!!! You are indeed a very smart person, very knowledgable!! I want to grow up to bejust like YOU <hr /></blockquote>Myrta, you don't understand yet, but I will try and explain this to you. I ENJOY helping you and Stanley, nothing would make me happier than you two getting this marriage rebuilt and the both of you very very happy with each other. I cannot explain it any further, but seeing you two make it is a big reward to me.

As for growing up to "be just like" me. Please don't, your H is NOT interested in being married to a 6'4" , 250 pound MAN that is older than he is. :rolleyes" I don't know much, but I KNOW he finds you far more attractive and enticing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

JL:

Went to a ball game this PM, the last of the season. My wife talked a lot during the game------ I listened to her and hardly followed the game. She was in a playful mood and gave me extra details so now things make more sense to me. There is plenty more, but I don't know when she will talk again. She is very remorseful and that makes me sad. In a way I want her to be happy. I asked her is she was happy and said “not quite”. She then said: “But you are also unhappy!”.

I look at her and I cannot help myself----------------- I am overcome by my love for her. Then within an instant I am assaulted by doubts. Is she going back to the affair one of these days? She says, “no way you are the better man“, but that is not the issue. She was in an addiction-------------- this was the thrill of her life---------------- a major adventure that she has given up. It is not so much that I am a better man. I worry because I cannot provide the same thrill and excitement. Let me rephrase that----------------------- I think I can do better than the OM, but at the same time it all goes back to the brand new sports car versus the 30-year-old sedan analogy.

She then said that at the end the OM was traveling so often that she was getting stressed out and that she now sees how hard it was to lead a double life.

Part of her remorse has to do with hurting the feelings of the OM.

BTW, the OM called my daughters his daughters when talking to Myrta. OM also atached his surname to my wife's name (Myrta). This guy was either very foggy or perhaps was an egomaniac!

[ October 03, 2004, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

JustLEARNINING <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thats funny that you say you are not photogenic. Post your pic anyways,let us be the Judges!!! We wll putting ours soon too!
I dont think I am capable of being that other woman anymore. I WAS capable, but not a nymore. After seeing all the damage that I have caused my husband and also to myself and to the OM too. He might be a jerk, a smooth talker, the worst, but he is also suffering now. I dont like to see people hurt , I like it even less if I am the cause of the pain! I think I have changed in these four months. Yes, maybe I still think of the OM, I might be still in withdrawal, but to go back to that, NOOO!!!
I like my husband to feel young with me, but I dont want him to feel insecure with himself. One thing that always attracted me to him, was his good self esteem. I like men to be very sure of themselves, know their worth!!!
I tell him over and over again, that HE is the better man, he is more good looking, my husband is a medical doctor,the other one works part-time as a policeman,although he has a business, my husbannd has always been faithful, the OM hasn't! So in every sense my HUSBAND is the BETTER MAN!!!
He wants me to give him proof that I will not change my mind!!! How can I give him proof of that?? I just can tell him, and he has to be lieve me!!
You are right in saying that it would be very scary that I was with the OM for two years and there were no feelings. That would make me an animal!!! Of course there were feelings, but those feelings are dissolving, those feelings are starting to dissapear! I still dont hate the OM, like he wants me to! I dont think I will ever hate him. I know that because of HIM there was a lot of damage done to my marriage, but it was not only his fault, I allowed him to do the damage.
My husband is much more sensitive now. He has never been the way he is now. He asks me all the time, how do I feel, what am I thinking. Looks concern and worry about me.
Today we went to a BB game, and we could not go to Mass. I dont like skipping mass, especially now, since like I told you I feel the best when I am in it. My oldest daughter took our 12 year old to mass. But we had a good time in the field, had hot dogs and italian sausages for lunch and I talked to him a lot! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> He liked that a lot!!
It is so sweet of you, that you really want to help get thru this. You are such a nice man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am sure your wife thinks you are "priceless". Is she possesive with you??? How long you had been married, JL???
Take care and God Bless!

MYRTA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Myrta:

I am going to pretend to be JL, but I will obviously have a bias.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I don’t think I am capable of being that other woman anymore<hr /></blockquote>Myrta, I also believe that you are not capable anymore. The only difference is that I have lost all confidence. You often say I look at you in a way that makes you wonder what I’m thinking. Why do I give you that unusual glare? I think I do it without even knowing it is happening. It probably means that I am very insecure. You often catch me looking at your eyes and probably think I am in awe of their beauty. Well, that is true, but I am also looking for a sign that tells me I have nothing to worry about.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> After seeing all the damage that I have caused my husband and also to myself and to the OM too. <hr /></blockquote>Myrta, I will survive this quite well, just give me some time. Remember the positive side as well. I now enjoy my sexuality in my 50s quite a bit. You are correct, I feel young!

You admitted today that part of your remorse has to do with hurting the OM. The OM is hurting because he fell in love with you. However, initially he wanted something else and he accomplished his objective.

OM was soooooooooo interested in our children. Well Myrta, that is part of the smooth talk. Yeah, he even wanted to have a deep conversation with our daughter (who plans to go to Europe next year) to give her some advice about life. Hmm-

Don’t worry about the OM. he said he has gone thru this many times before. It all comes with the territory.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He might be a jerk, a smooth talker, the worst, but he is also suffering now. <hr /></blockquote>I don’t think he is suffering as much as he says he is. However, if he is suffering have no regrets------------ He asked for it. He had plenty of chances to avoid the pain.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He wants me to give him proof that I will not change my mind!!! How can I give him proof of that?? I just can tell him, and he has to be lieve me!! <hr /></blockquote>Myrta, I have no fear of the OM. I just worry about the addiction to the thrill, the adventure----------- The chance to re-live the adolescence with the mind of an adult. You told me many times this was one of the most exciting things you have done in your life. Taking trips to far away places and having secret meetings on the beach, ect. Who wouldn’t like that exotic lifestyle. I worry about that!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Of course there were feelings, but those feelings are dissolving, those feelings are starting to disappear! <hr /></blockquote>What if they never go away? Then what? The adventure begins again. This is why I am insecure. The only thing I have to hold on is what I see in the eyes of Myrta when she talks to me.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I talked to him a lot! He liked that a lot!! <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, Myrta was very nice about this and I could feel she was relaxed and did not feel I was threatening her. I feel my wife Myrta will keep opening up. I just have to keep waiting----- she is so special!

[ October 03, 2004, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

Myrta,

You said <blockquote>quote:<hr />Of course there were feelings, but those feelings are dissolving, those feelings are starting to dissapear! I still dont hate the OM, like he wants me to! I dont think I will ever hate him. I know that because of HIM there was a lot of damage done to my marriage, but it was not only his fault, I allowed him to do the damage. <hr /></blockquote>I'll give you another quote by Eli Weismann <blockquote>quote:<hr /> The opposite of love is NOT hate, it is indifference<hr /></blockquote>Think about that. Stanley really doesn't want you to hate the OM, although he may think so. That would mean that OM is present in your emotional mind. He wants what is happening and that is he ceases to create any feelings in your mind: hate or love. You will NEVER forget but the feelings will fade.

I must tell you Myrta, the part I find really bothersome and strange and sort of sets my teeth on edge, is the OM's contact with your children. The fact that he wanted to refer to them as his. The fact that he emailed your D. Perhaps it is the protective father in me, but I find that part really bothersome. I know you don't find it a problem, but... I think the man was really a bit off in this regard and perhaps a potential problem.

Stanley, I am getting ready to shut down tonight, but I think your fears while normal will prove to be baseless. You see this A changed both you and Myrta. You are now worried that she will seek the excitement of another affair with OM or another man and that you are not exciting enough for her. Fair enough to think that.

But, you don't realize that Myrta has changed as well. She did NOT really believe she could lose her family when she had the affair because she felt it would not be found out. Further, it was a fantasy and she KNEW she would not leave you. Yet, you found out, and she came closer to losing what she thought she could not lose, than she ever thought possible. I truely believe she does and will come to view you marriage in a different light than she did before. She now sees it as fragile, she sees you as someone who can be deeply hurt by her.

I think as the months go by you both will come to realize you both value your marriage more than ever before because you now KNOW it is something that you both need to protect.

Must go, But you two keep working on this, you are doing far better than you realize.

God Bless,

JL

JUST LEARNING!
jUSt one question for now!
Why should the OM refering to my children as his children worry you or my husband?
That was before, NOT NOW!!! Yeah, he might had be delusional, but we are not in contact ANYMORE!!!
When he refered to my girls as his, I thought "oh my, if my husband knew this, he would be really pissed". That was a reality check then!!!
But there is no contact whatsoever anymore. I dont see this as a potential problem at all!!!
Myrta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

JL:

Desperate men with poor reality check can do strange things. They may even break the law if they have to. The OM talking about my kids as his kids is very creepy indeed and I am glad Myrta also thought it was odd. I know Myrta never saw the OM’s kids as her children.

I have a daughter that has been depressed since she broke up with her boyfriend. She is in her mid 20s and has a mindset very similar to mine. Among all my kids she is somewhat special because we talk several times a day and she looks up to me a lot. Is one of those situations where the daughter adores her dad (and that happens to be me). So Myrta tells the OM all the intimate details of my daughter and somehow the OM says that if he has a talk with my daughter he can fix all her problems. I know for a fact that my daughter would not even consider OM a man and she would not listen to him at all.

Why do I worry?

When I read about affairs in the news and see what the Scott Peterson’s of the world can do I become concerned. I often look over my shoulder when I leave the house to work. The OM knows where I live and where I work. If I was out of the picture things would be fairly easy for the OM. Myrta says I am paranoid, but my concern is that she only knows the good side of the OM. Who knows what is really in there? OM also contacted Myrta’s mom after supposedly he was out of the picture and in permanent NC. OM showed up unexpectedly in our city several weeks ago. That is why I told Myrta shortly after D-day that I have a document in my office that is to be opened if I die under mysterious circumstances. In this document I mention the name of OM as prime suspect. I made sure Myrta told the OM about this. I don’t want to take any chances.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stanley568:
 Why do I worry?

When I read about affairs in the news and see what the Scott Peterson’s of the world can do I become concerned. I often look over my shoulder when I leave the house to work. The OM knows where I live and where I work. If I was out of the picture things would be fairly easy for the OM. Myrta says I am paranoid, but my concern is that she only knows the good side of the OM. Who knows what is really in there? OM also contacted Myrta’s mom after supposedly he was out of the picture and in permanent NC. OM showed up unexpectedly in our city several weeks ago. That is why I told Myrta shortly after D-day that I have a document in my office that is to be opened if I die under mysterious circumstances. In this document I mention the name of OM as prime suspect. I made sure Myrta told the OM about this. I don’t want to take any chances. <hr /></blockquote>Wow! That's a scary thought. As if there aren't already enough things to deal with. Maybe you should check into a restraining order at some point.

Myrta,

I think you H answered this well. My comment was not about you or the affair, it was about this OM. He apparently did have a decidedly delusional approach to your family and even his ability to fix things in your daughters life.

I guess, since I am a guy, I worry about men that seem to be outside the norm. I am not talking about the A, I am talking about his thinking with respect to your children.

I just find it worrisome, but there is nothing to do, and this is NOT about your marriage, the A, or anything. He just comes across as someone or the type of someone to be a little weary (sp) of.

JL

I hope I never hear from OM again. His reality assessment is at best very poor.

Shortly after D-day I told my wife that the phones might be tapped. I recorded a call by the OM where my wife promptly informed him that the phones were tapped. OM kept talking with complete disregard for the tap. This is after I had sent the OM several stern emails where I told him not to call MY HOME. Well the OM kept calling my home for many more weeks and I couldn’t record anymore because Myrta found the device and disabled it. Nevertheless I always made it clear that there could be other recording devices somewhere in the basement. In any event the OM kept calling. I give Myrta a lot of credit for agreeing to change her cell number and afterwards our home number. Before the change of the home number the OM told Myrta that because he was a cop he could get both numbers if he really wanted to do so.

This OM was VERY sure Myrta was going to marry him even thou Myrta never said she would. OM has also IM one of my daughters and I worry about him disclosing the affair to my family. That is one of the reasons I have not proceeded with a retraining order. I am simply hoping the OM goes away. At this point no one knows about the affair and I suspect this OM could make it public. A scorned man is dangerous!

My wife Myrta does not like to hear negative remarks about the OM, but I am simply stating facts that suggest some concern. Hopefully OM was just a desperate man in love who had poor judgment by calling my house against my wishes.

However, the delusion is worrisome, for example OM refused to believe he was involved in an affair. He wanted to believe he was a boyfriend and that they were a real couple. He made plans for the future and seemed completely swallowed by the fantasy.

JUST LEARNING---DEJA VU---
My husband is exagerating here. Why should he fear the OM? My husband is the one that used to write him nasty-insulting e-mails!! The OM never answered any of them!!! My husband was the one saying to me, that he would like to see the OM dead!! The OM never say such things.
He never wrote my daughter an e-mail. He helped my daughter via-computer with an assignment she had for college. Thats all! He has never called her, although he had IMed her a couple of times.
When we were together he refered to my girls as "our daughters". I thought it was kind of weird, but at the same time kind of cute. But of course , at the same time, I thought, that if my husband knew that he would not be happy!! I used to tell the OM about the problems with my kids, and he would offer advice(he used to be a high-school counselor) and he told me one day, that it would be nice if he could talk to one of my daughters, and try to advice her. This daughter is very insecure about her looks and abilities. She is very beautiful and a jr.architect but she thinks she is stupid! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> She became very insecure after the breakup with her only boyfriend! They had been broken up for 3 years, and she is still in pain!!! She is very much like my husband, very righteous, almost puritanical.
JL- I do see my marriage very fragile now, as of before I did not. I never thought I was going to be found out. I also never thought I was inflicting such agony in my husband. So, yes I do see my marriage in a different light now. It is far more precious that I ever gave credit! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It really creeps me out, that my husband is always looking for signs in my expressions and actions. To see if he sees love for him. It makes me very uneasy. I always see such dark cloud over his eyes, and I dont like it. I know him so well. His eyes have a different look now. I see a sadness and always a question mark, or even acussations.
Take care!
Myrta

Myrta,

You are only 4-5 months out since d-day. IF you keep loving your H and your words match your actions, you will see the clouds lift. It is clear he loves you very very much, but yes he does have fears. OM represents a huge threat to your marriage. I commented on that in KiwiJ's thread. I know you don't see it you don't realize what OM's goal was. It was the end of your marriage and your family. Stanley knows this.

I hope your daughter recovers from what has happened to her. How old is she? I hate to see kids have troubles such as she is having it is so hard to watch them and it is so hard to help them.

I must go, but I look forward to hearing from you. I see you posting and helping other people Myrta. That is very good to see.

God Bless,

JL

JL--Sometimes I feel the clouds lifting, but others I feel a huge thunderstorm on top of us!
I know he loves me, I can see it sometimes. But even though he does, sometimes ,I wonder if that is going to be enough to stay with me in the long run.
Maybe you are right, saying that the OM was bad news because he just wanted the breakup of my marriage. But he fell in love with me, and I guess he stop reasoning about what was right or not.
My daughter in question is 24, she broke up with her boyfriend three years ago, and that was her first boyfriend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Thats why she is taking it so hard, she waited so long, and it did not end well. She has become extremely picky and see faults in all men that approach her. She wants a man just like her dad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But, the "mold was broken" after my husband <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Any advice you can offer for me to give her? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I am trying to help CC come out of her confusion, but I dont see too much progress. Your help is needed!!! ASAP
Thanks
God Bless
Myrta

[ October 04, 2004, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]

Myrta,

As for CC, you are actually doing very well. You don't need my help as she will listen to you much more than me. Further, you have information she needs. It is a bit frustrating isn't it? But, don't worry you can help her more than you realize.

I am so sorry about your daughter. I have a son the same age, and it seems in that 21-25 age, there is a lot of pain and growing to do. They are far more vulnerable than they think or we realize sometimes.

I do hope that she will grow to realize there are some good guys out there. Given that she has you for a mother and Stanley as a father, I am betting someone is going to realize she is quite a catch and very special. When that happens, she will recover. That is my guess anyway.

The point I am making about OM, is that you need to consider him from the point of view of the health of your marriage. In that context he was NOT a good guy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Don't give up on Stanely, he will heal and come around. He loves you too much, and if you give him the same love, he will heal. It just takes awhile. It is that Time and Patience thing Myrta, you cannot get around T&P.

Must go.

JL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know he loves me, I can see it sometimes. But even though he does, sometimes ,I wonder if that is going to be enough to stay with me in the long run.<hr /></blockquote>Myrta, I am going to turn 54 next month even thou I feel like 30. I am very motivated to keep our marriage------------ AND HAVE NO DESIRE to try elsewhere. You would have to bring the OM into your life for me to go. BTW, I see you are less tenacious in your defense of the OM and that is gratifying!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Maybe you are right, saying that the OM was bad news because he just wanted the breakup of my marriage. But if he fell in love with me, and I guess he stop reasoning about what was right or not.<hr /></blockquote>JL:

I think Myrta is correct in her assessment. In fact he might have been delusional about the relationship. At the end he was calling Myrta his wife, added his surname, my daughters were his, and was making plans for the wedding. In his mind the affair was now a normal relationship and they were a couple.

Myrta assures me she never gave him any indication she planned to leave the marriage. She always would say------ "I am not ready." After D-day OM had a hard time believing the relationship was over and I see a lot of similarities with CC and I would venture to say many other OPs are the same. The intoxication created by an affair is simply incredible and the brain chemistry changes have to be more profound than with a normal relationship in the open. I am glad to report Myrta sees this quite well and is trying to help CC with this brain chemistry.

Myrta is quite good at picking up the feelings of others and she is often a very good soundboard for those in need. In fact her relationship with OM started as she helped him cope with the pain of destroying his own marriage and the hurt it caused the children. Paradoxically at the end he wanted Myrta to destroy her own marriage even thou he knew it was VERY painful. I do see the similarities with CC and Myrta has given CC a lot of insight as to how OPs operate.

Dear Myrta!

I have followed yours and Stanley’s struggle for some time now. I think you have received excellent advice and feed back.
Before I start I must say that this is a (light) 2x4, but there are no flames. I have empathy and I understand your pain for what you have done to S, and for the fall-outs in your life.

This post is a response to your defence of the OM. I understand your need for self respect in this. You feel that since you bonded to him emotionally and through PA, he has to be quality. Otherwise how could you do this?

Yet, you tell of how he planed to take over your husband’s entire life. Steal his wife and also his kids. Can you not see how this defines him (the OM)?
And try to put on your husband’s shoes and try to feel how this treat must have made him feel. Try to feel the terrible treat, he must have felt. Given your present concern for the state of your M this exercise should not be a difficult one to you.
Also, when you have had a close escape, say from a terrible car accident, the thought of what nearly happened will have the power to terrify months, and even years into the future. In the same way you must expect S to respond emotionally to the treat he now has escaped, and that those emotions will linger for quite some time. When S hears your defence of the OM, how can he but hear that the treat is not quite gone? And even if S should now feel perfectly safe, can you not see how provocative to S your defence of the OM must be? he must question to whom your loyalty belongs.

For the sake of your H and your M. Let go of the need to defend OM. Keep your mouth shut and bite your tongue if you have to.

If S feels a need to bad-mouth the OM, so what? By your actions, if not by your words, you have communicated for two years to the OM that S was not worth respect. A PA does communicate that, even though that was not what you wanted. The OM eagerly accepted that message. And you did keep quiet when the OM spoke his plans to take over S’s entire life. Why is it then so difficult to keep you tongue when S labels the OM?
Leave the OM in the past. You owe him no defence. His actions and words are his own responsibility. And you did accept the spoken and unspoken assaults on Stanley’s honour from you and the OM for two years.

If you say: “That is not the same”, I do agree. You owe loyalty to S, your husband, and you never owed anything to the OM.

Make this Recovery a competition between S and yourself in how much respect and honour you can give each other. That would be a much better focus!

[ October 05, 2004, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: Frank57 ]

Frank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I so understand what you are saying. I see all that now, before I did not. I can how something that affected our lives so much is going to be with us for a long time. I can see my husband's fears, when I talk in a positive way of the OM. I see that!!! But like you say, I also need to defend myself,because I chose this man to almost ruined my life and my husband's. I have to think that there was s omething even if remote good about him. I mean, he is sooooooooooooo different from my husband, but yet, I liked him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I am sure my husband understands me too, even if he gets angry with my defense of the OM, he can see why I do it. It is diminishing, I promise!
Thank you so much for your feedback-advice.
You are right in everything you say!
Myrta

JL--thank you so much for believing in us, in our love.! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
We both need a lot of time and patience indeed. But maybe we can make it after all.
JL--Maybe we can get your son and my daughter together??? What do you think??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I am trying to measure up to your advice with other people. Like I said before , I want to be JUST LIKE YOU!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Take care!

MYRTA

Myrta -

You are doing much, much better than most exWW's. I think you will do just fine. Right now you defend OM and I'm sure you do not see how weird (not cute) his behavior was.

For him to try to "help" your daughter while destroying her family is creepy.

I'm glad you are helping others by posting to them. Keep up the good work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JL, Frank:

I think most men at one point or another have been in a position to be an OM. I know there have been several instances where I could have been one of those guys. In every single instance I dealt with a wife who sent a clear message she was approachable for an affair. I could see the allure and attraction and I can understand how many love to play this male/female symphony.

I will be brutally honest. In every single instance------- the reason I decided not to consider the OM job was the thought of making the husband look like a fool. I simply could not do that to anyone. I am not sure why, but the concept of thoroughly humiliating another human being does not agree with me. In every single instance I thought about the injury to the potential BH rather than my wife.

I will also admit that the behavior of a potential WW was a little bit of a turn off. So all this crap about we got in too deep and it was too late to get out is nothing but BS to me. I think the hallmark of OMs and WWs is low self-esteem and insecurity. I challenge anyone here to find a WW or OM without those two issues. As a result of the affair I am now an insecure person and I can see that need to be loved and accepted. OMs and WWs crave to be desired by others.

I will be frank---------- I always knew Myrta was susceptible for an affair. Myrta will admit that she was always susceptible due to a large number of reasons (some which have been well stated by her). Otherwise, she was an excellent woman and she made me very happy. I simply let my guard down because we were into late adulthood and I thought the danger years were behind us. I was also very naïve and felt a PA was out of the question. At most I felt she could have an EA with minimal physical interaction. I never envisioned that she would have intercourse with another man for an entire year. I never imagined that she would fall in love and write the love letters I read on D-day.

So I had moments of hesitation and wanted a divorce, but then I decided I wanted her to be my wife. Since I was a teenager I knew this could happen, but like all fool in love I thought I could change her. But, we all know, no one can change anyone.

Hmm, I really dont like very much what myhusband is saying here. He had plenty of opportunities to having affairs, but he always stop himself short of having them, because of his consideration for the OM. Not because he loves me, and would not want to hurt me. Just because he did not want the husband to look like a fool!!
How considerate!!!!
I think thats bull dookie from him. He should state the real reasons. If a woman that he really likes would come and give him "smooth talk" likes he calls it, he would not find her unappealing one bit! He would go for it.
But then again, maybe not, because he was not born like me, a HUMAN, that can make mistakes and not think on anyone!!
Maybe my marriage was not a bad one, but it was not a great one either. There were things missing for a long time, I told him several times thru the years, but he always told me "Nah, I am so happy, there is no problem here" and he dismissed my words!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Myrta

He had plenty of opportunities to having affairs, but he always stop himself short of having them, because of his consideration for the OM. Not because he loves me, and would not want to hurt me. Just because he did not want the husband to look like a fool!!
How considerate!!!!

What an odd way of criticizing your H...

He is being criticized for NOT having affairs, for the WRONG reasons...

wow <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

This puts your H is a "no-win" situation! Are you sure this is your intent?

Pep

PepperBand....My intent was not that I guess. I just want myhusband to say that he did not have affairs, even though he could, because he loved ME, because I was the one that he did not want to hurt, not the other husband. He does not know those other Husbands, but I am his wife! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I do appreciate greatly of course that he did not have affairs. Although he is not the saint that he paints himself to be here. He has done "things" in the past with nurses when he was a young doctor just starting. But he assures me he did not crossed the line!

[ October 05, 2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Myrta ]

edit out double

[ October 05, 2004, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

I just want myhusband to say that he did not have affairs, even though he could, because he loved ME, because I was the one that he did not want to hurt, not the other husband.

How would this help you recover from the fact that you had an affair?

Edited to add:

Be careful ~ you do not paint yourself into a corner... you are about to imply that you DID have an affair because you did NOT love your husband!!!

Be careful.

Pep

[ October 05, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Wow, you really like to read WHATS NOT between the lines!! I am talking about my husband, not myself. My reasons were not lack of love for my husband, there were many factors involved and he knows them all.
So the implication that you are stating here, is not valid!
I have loved my husband all my life and I still do!!
I am a different kind of person from my husband, and he knows this too. My reasons were others, completely different than lack of love for him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

[ October 05, 2004, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Myrta ]

OK, it goes without saying that I would not want to hurt my wife--- that is a given. But, I also recall a distinct dislike for the idea of doing harm to the potential BH.

As to the allure- heck- I was tempted and it was all the result of what I thought was innocent flirting. But, whenever the potential WW said something undesirable about the potential BH I was turned off. That is how I feel, that is the truth!

I also realized that if I ever became an OM at one point I would have to say something undesirable about my wife and I could never do that. In a sense those two things made me STOP! It was not religion or the fact that I am Mr. Morality. I simply did not like the idea of hurting others.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Myrta:
Wow, you really like to read WHATS NOT between the lines!!
<hr /></blockquote>~LOL~ Myrta!

Thanks for that one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

He had plenty of opportunities to having affairs, but he always stop himself short of having them, because of his consideration for the OM. Not because he loves me, and would not want to hurt me. Just because he did not want the husband to look like a fool!!
How considerate!!!!

I think the best reason for NOT having an affair is because one loves his / her self enough to avoid choosing degrading ways to deal with stress and disappointment in life.

An affair is a self-loathing decision, in my opinion. it has very llittle to do with how much one loves or does not love their spouse, but has a great deal to say about how one loves and respects the integrity of the self.

What do you think?

Pep

[ October 05, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Sgt Pepper:

I guess I write these things to try to understand. From my perspective NOTHING makes sense. It is a helpless feeling and the sad thing is that things cannot be changed. I keep having ups and downs and simply seek answers.

I ask myself why Myrta did this and how come I did not do it. I want to know how a person falls in love when married to someone else. I just cannot imagine that! Cerri said that some folks fall in love very easily whereas others don’t----- I can buy that! But, I still cannot understand how Myrta fell in love.

[ October 05, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

Hmm, I think it should be CommanderPepper! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I really think ,that is the main reason why people have affairs. Because of the lack of self respect. That was something that I grew up with. All around me, I just saw disrespect between my parents my older sisters,etc. Of course that does not excuse having my affair. But I think that really influenced the way I saw life and right and wrong!
My husband tried to change me, to be a better person, but I guess this far after being married, my TRUE bad self came out!

Stanley, well, gotta jump on this one. I am like you, exactly. I have had many opportunities to have an affair, but never did. Mainly because I loved my husband, but also because I would always think about the OP's wife. I AM a religious person, and have always applied the golden rule -"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

My husband decided to cheat with a woman whose husband was in Iraq, defending our country. My WH was always proud of being a veteran. And he used to always treat everyone right.

It is beyond me how he could justify his decision to hit on another man's wife. It is so out of character for him. But he firmly maintains that he is an honorable man. YUCK!

My husband tried to change me, to be a better person,

That's not possible, H cannot change you. You are a better person than you care to own up to at the moment. It's more thrilling to beat yourself up with a stick ... Your level of "badness" isn't so bad.

but I guess this far after being married, my TRUE bad self came out!

Now you're being silly! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think your true self is only beginning to find her voice, but you are a little afraid of all her power!

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think the best reason for NOT having an affair is because one loves his / her self enough to avoid choosing degrading ways to deal with stress and disappointment in life.
An affair is a self-loathing decision, in my opinion. it has very little to do with how much one loves or does not love their spouse, but has a great deal to say about how one loves and respects the integrity of the self.
What do you think?
<hr /></blockquote>It makes sense and it explains why the image of my wife was not present when I decided that having an affair was unsavory. The only image that came to mind was of a husband who was in a wheelchair suffering from MS.

As for Myrta, she has done great considering the circumstances. She did not have the greatest childhood and nevertheless became a good person. I consider her GOOD despite all of this. If you met her you would see a ton of great qualities and I would never let her go. I write the way I do to understand and feel better about all this mess.

Sgt Pepper:

Thanks for your succinct and to the point remarks!

CIAO!

Myrta:

Sgt Pepper made very good points!

When I feel down I tend to write to see if I can find a way to feel better. As you know I still deal with the affair everyday. As much as I don’t want------ there is the feeling that I completely failed as a husband. The two people involved in the affair rationalize that they have to do whatever they do because of my shortcomings as a husband. In other words OM gives WW what she does not get from H. I saw comments like that in the emails I intercepted. So on a daily basis I feel like a failure and my self-esteem goes down.

Sgt Pepper gave me a good point of view as to why I never had an affair. It had nothing to do with you Myrta! I would not have an affair with a married woman even if I were single. So in a sense you were not a factor in the decision. By the same token perhaps I can conclude that you had an affair for reasons that have nothing to do with me. I have suspected this for a long time even though you keep saying that you were neglected. To be honest---- at the time it all started you were not neglected or taken for granted.

MYRTA, I HAVE AQUESTION. THIS IS A DIFFICULT ONE AND THERE IS NO EASY WAY OUT:

Your OM was separated---- in other words--unattached. Whenever you had to call there was no need to do it at certain hours or days. There was no need to worry about a wife lurking in the background. You could visit anytime, there were no restrictions like OM had to endure with you.

1. If OM was married ----- Would you have the affair anyway? Would that make a difference?

[ October 05, 2004, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

STANLEY--- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I do think that would had make a diffference!!! I would ask him once in a while , if he wanted to work things out with his wife and I would get out of the picture. That would had bothered me greatly, yes.
Now, I have a question for you Stanley!
If those women that wanted to have affairs with you had been single? No Husband to hurt, would you had sex with them? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Myrta

I do think that would had make a diffference!!! I would ask him once in a while , if he wanted to work things out with his wife and I would get out of the picture. That would had bothered me greatly, yes.

What is it about MM betraying his own wife that bothers you ? Why would commiting adultery within another person's marriage not be OK for you, however betraying your own marriage seemed OK at the time? Why the different standards in conduct?

I don't understand.

Pep

SGT PEPPER!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
OH MY!!! YOU LOVE THIS!!! READING BETWEEN LINES!
At the time I was having the affair, I did not bellieve I was wrecking my marriage.
Also, I would not want to deal with another woman (wife)calling me, and asking me whats going on. If that had been the case, NO AFFAIR, would had happened!!
I repeat it again, when i was in the affair, it was the furthest thing from my mind, that my marriage would end or be in j eopardy. I thought my husband would never found out, and no one would be hurt. It was like a kid that steals something or gets a cookie when he is not supose to. I thought there were not going to be any consecuences to my acts. But there are consecuences to everything, but I found out TOOOOOO LATE!

MYRTA

Originally posted by Myrta:
SGT PEPPER!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
OH MY!!! YOU LOVE THIS!!! READING BETWEEN LINES!

Are you normally quick to anger? Why are you angry? I ask questions when I don't understand something...

At the time I was having the affair, I did not bellieve I was wrecking my marriage.
Also, I would not want to deal with another woman (wife)calling me, and asking me whats going on. If that had been the case, NO AFFAIR, would had happened!!

This is what I think you are saying... An A with an unattached man is safer and less likely to be exposed. Correct?

I thought my husband would never found out, and no one would be hurt.

Did you ever wonder if YOU might be hurt?

It was like a kid that steals something or gets a cookie when he is not supose to. I thought there were not going to be any consecuences to my acts. But there are consecuences to everything, but I found out TOOOOOO LATE!

It's not too late... I see lots of hopefulness in your situation.

Pep

PEPPERBAND--No,no, I am not angry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I am just amazed that you always managed to get in between what is not written.
No, I did not think I would get hurt, but I did... BIG TIME!
Yes, I do think having an affair with an unattached man or woman is easier and less risk for being exposed! Less people involved.
And thank you for your vote of confidence in my marriage! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MYRTA

Myrta said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Now, I have a question for you Stanley!
If those women that wanted to have affairs with you had been single? No Husband to hurt, would you had sex with them? <hr /></blockquote>Myrta, I told San San in another thread that both men and women are programmed to have more than one partner. That is nature’s way of preserving the species. I guess in the right circumstances I could seek another mate. You know me quite well and you would immediately recognize something different in my face if I had a relationship with another woman. SO the answer is:

1. I could not have a relationship with another woman while I am with you. I don’t have the tools and the knowledge to pull that one.
However, I guess I could have sex with another woman if there was no deceit. IMO, there is no such thing. However, I am human and in the right circumstances I could do it. I do not profess to be better than you or anyone else.

Myrta, I don’t blame your desire or curiosity to see what is like to have sex with another mate. I have the same sensations you do. My problem has to do with the lying and manipulation of the spouse to accomplish the goal. As you said one must be mischievous and perhaps it may all sound like harmless fun at the onset, however, once the brain chemistry changes is lights out.

I am just amazed that you always managed to get in between what is not written.

It's a gift (maybe a curse?) ~LOL~

... I am an annoying old lady sometimes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

No, I did not think I would get hurt, but I did... BIG TIME!

*bingo*

I think the person who suffers the worst hurt is the one who had the affair.... even if it does not seem like it at the beginning.... (NEVER argue this point with a newly wounded BS.... it will not make sense to that person until years later)

The loss of self-respect and self-love is recoverable Myrta. It is!

My H is a very good example of someone who recovered from the worst mistake of his life... My H's A was a moral low point. His A was with the wife of his life-long friend. How low can you go?

But, Myrta, my H did not recover his self respect by any blame shifting of his mistake. He took it on the chin, all the responsibility. And by doing this, he then accepted the power to change himself.

I think this *side-bar* discussion ---> "H did not have an affair because he did not want to hurt any other married man, but he should have not had an affair for another reason... that he loves me."

STOP THE INSANITY! (remember that crazy blond woman on those infomercials... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

The issue is NOT why your H did NOT have an A... the issue is, what are you going to do to fix your marriage? To heal your wounds? To restore intimacy in your marriage? What are your weaknesses? How can you protect your marriage from this day forward?

Stop going sideways.... it's a waste of your energies.

Take your responsibility for your affair square on the chin, and thereby grabbing the power of recovery....

You cannot fix what you will not acknowledge.

It's not "easy" ... but it is simple.

((( hugs )))

Pep

PEPPERBAND!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Oh, I do acknowledge my mistake, a huge mistake. The thing is what can I do to restore my marriage?
Since you already been there, done that, you can give me good pointers in what for me to do and for my husband to do as well.
So, I am going to assume, you just realized how much your husband suffered by his mistake? More than you? Less than you? The same? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
What do you recommend I change in myself? How I think,how I see things, everything? I am already grown, an adult, do you think it is really possible to change at this stage of my life? I am already 49 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> a bit too old to change my ways. How can you reform an old person?
By the way, Sgt>Pepper? how come you never appeared to be logged on? I see everyones name but yours! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Thanks

MYRTA

P.S. YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE MY ADVISER
SINCE JL, FORGOT ABOUT ME!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Oh, I do acknowledge my mistake, a huge mistake. The thing is what can I do to restore my marriage?

Is there anything you have said that you are NOT willing to do?

Since you already been there, done that, you can give me good pointers in what for me to do and for my husband to do as well.
So, I am going to assume, you just realized how much your husband suffered by his mistake? More than you? Less than you? The same?

Can't compare suffering of 2 individuals. And who cares who suffered the most? It's not a contest where we keep score, is it? Isn't it enough to recognize your H-love is hurting, and you want to comfort him when possible?

What do you recommend I change in myself?

You go first. I don't know you. Pick something you think you need to change, and then ask the board how to begin.

I am already grown, an adult, do you think it is really possible to change at this stage of my life? I am already 49 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> a bit too old to change my ways. How can you reform an old person?

shaddup ya little squirt! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I am 55 !

By the way, Sgt>Pepper? how come you never appeared to be logged on? I see everyones name but yours!

In the profile set up, it is one of the options to remain invisible.

Pep

P.S. YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE MY ADVISER
SINCE JL, FORGOT ABOUT ME!!

No way JL is much more gentle than I am... trust me! I can be as blunt as a kicking mule.

I tend to speak my mind,and I respect the same level of honest straight-forward replies from you. We might not be a good "fit".

Pep

PEPPERBAND <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I guess you dont want to take JL's place!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
Ofcourse the pains of two people cannot be compare. But you can tell, who seems to be suffering the most! LIke right now, I can see my husband having more pain. I am not comparing the pain, I just see him suffering more.
As far as changing myself, I really dont know what was it that make me have the affair, since there are many things that could had been the trigger!

thanks!

myrta

I guess you dont want to take JL's place!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Sweetie, I did not say I did not want to, I said I can't take JL's place. I am saucy and he is sweet! He's irreplaceable! You might not like me much, I am a little harsh sometimes. Of course, you can always tell me to go fly a kite when ya feel like it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I just see him suffering more.

Hold him. Tell him you are sorry. Tell him a hundred times a day if necessary. Be there for the long run. On average, it takes about 2 years to recover. Be patient and gentle and try not to shift blame.

As far as changing myself, I really dont know what was it that make me have the affair, since there are many things that could had been the trigger!

Well, think about it for awhile, and then come up with an area of weakness...

Are you someone who only feels good and satisfied with herself when you are getting praise and attention from someone else? Is this a possible area where you fall into your weakness? It's called borrowed functioning.... means you don't feel whole when you are alone. You "borrow" the opinions of others in order to form your opinion of yourself. Is this an area for you to work on maybe?

Pep

Shoot, Pep, you're good. I didn't even know that feeling had a name. I've felt like that all my life.

Myrta, JL hasn't forgotten about you. None of us have. We're all here to help for as long as it takes.

And, yes, at 49 you sure can grow and learn. Heck, I've just turned 50 and I've learnt more about myself and life (in a good way) this last year than I've learned in the previous 50. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jen

Dear Myrta,

I'm not sure if I can say anything to help you but I'll try, I would really like to do that. In fact that would help me too. The thing is - my H had an A with my best friend. I had several talks with this friend/OW after I found out, not to bash her, but to try and understand how this could have happened. You sound a lot like her and that is why I'd like to respond here.

In fact it was weird and painful for me that I couldn't help her. If she would have had an A with someone else, and would be in pain when realising what a mistake she had made, I would be there to help her through it. But now I couldn't - I was in so much pain myself and she helped cause this pain.

She was in a lot of fog the first few months, very remorseful but also full of "how wonderful my H was" and saying hurtful things like "how he really knows how to please a woman and that she really enjoyed it". I felt like someone from another planet was talking to me, and I asked her how she could be so insensitive to tell me this, to which she replied "I'm NOT insensitive!!". I guess she really didn't understand that she would hurt me by saying such things. She thinks I'm very perfect and can handle everything, so she was very confused when she saw I was in pain.

She takes great care of her appearance and has rather low self-esteem. The discovery of the A made her realise that. Her H doesn't know but losing me as a friend hit her hard and made her look at herself. She said it will take a long time for her to feel good about herself again.

She never intended to leave her H, she just wanted to have this experience, she said she could love two men etc. etc. And it never occurred to her she would hurt me (or her H) because she really thought I'd never find out. She actually said "I didn't think it was wrong because it felt so good" and I'm beginning to understand that.

OK that's where I'm coming from. Now what advise can I give you my dear?

I think the discovery of an A is a real growth spurt (is that correct English? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) both for a M and for the individual involved - if we allow it to be. It hurts, it nags and makes us uneasy for months. But we do grow. In my case we all HAD to grow as a person, become more understanding of the needs and feeling of others etc. to get through this. And that makes us a better person - all of us.

My advice would be to focus on the present. And to think of things you can DO. Learn about EN, about the Love Languages, go to counseling, whatever, but most importantly... try to understand what your partner is saying and feeling. Don't discuss. Don't defend or attack. What he feels, what you feel, is just that - feelings. Sometimes we can say things to change that feeling because it's based on incorrect information. Sometimes it's based on the truth and then we can only accept it. It's a person's very individual response to a situation, and even that person cannot know how they're going to react to an A.

I think accepting my own feelings - whatever they were - as well as my H's and OW's feelings - whatever they were - helped me immensely. It then makes you think "ok, so what shall we do now?" And being able to do something, rather than dwell on my emotions, feels so much better. I learned to calmly state what was going on inside me instead of keeping it all in. I learned to accept my H's reactions and to accept he's not perfect. I learned to set up my boundaries and make them clear to others. Hey.. not bad.. as an age-old conflict avoider that was about time, too ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So that's really my advice I guess - try not to discuss your H's feelings. He feels what he feels, period. It's his very personal reaction and his way of trying to deal with all aspects of the situation. I truely believe it's a very instinctive, primitive reaction: a BS feels angry or scared because of the "intrusion of their territory", of their safe place, by some OM or OW. The BS needs to feel safe again, NC is most important to establish this. It would also help if you would become completely transparant. Let him know where you are, who you are with, who you are phoning, whatever. No secrets. It will help your recovery a lot if you do it out of love and to help your H trust you again.

Another thing - accept your mistake for what is was: a mistake. No more, no less. Don't defend your actions. Try to understand them, but don't defend them. Just like a BS shouldn't hurt or bash the WS. It happens, we're only human, but we should avoid such LB'ing when we're trying to recover the M and ourselves.

I felt terrible for not being more forgiving after D-Day. I didn't understand those violent feelings that were raging inside me, the anger, the pain, the hurt, the loss of my self-respect. It didn't get any better until I accepted those feelings instead of fighting them. Maybe it's the same for you - accepting what you feel. Guilt. Confusion. Defensive. Ok, those are my feelings. Hello you guys. Now, what can we do to feel better? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hope this wasn't too much rambling my dear. Let me know if anything in here can be of help to you.

Myrta said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The thing is what can I do to restore my marriage?
Since you already been there, done that, you can give me good pointers in what for me to do and for my husband to do as well.<hr /></blockquote>Pep said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Is there anything you have said that you are NOT willing to do? <hr /></blockquote>The innocence is gone and I accept that. However, it would help me tremendously if I could trust again. I love Myrta with all my heart, but loving someone that I cannot trust is awkward. How do I know I am doing the right thing?

In the aftermath of D-day I thought I was doing fairly well and was actually regaining my trust. Myrta pleaded with me to stay in the marriage and agreed to send the OM packing right away. So I trusted her on D-day and told her I would stay in the marriage if she would immediately cut ties with OM.

At the time I believed I was simply dealing with the pain of betrayal. I actually trusted her when she said the OM was history. Then I found out she was in touch with the OM after D-day (not in a romantic way according to her). Now I find I cannot trust at all--- I am stuck!

Myrta said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> What do you recommend I change in myself? <hr /></blockquote>I don’t think anyone changes. I know Myrta is the same girl I met when I was a teenager. Once a personality is formed it is hard to change. I am pretty much the same person I was 40 years ago. The only thing I can do is to stay very close to Myrta and to have her avoid circumstances that can lead to an affair. I have to accept that she is prone to this activity and all I can do is be very attentive to her needs. I cannot say that she will be faithful because she loves me or because I am great in bed or whatever. I don’t think the fault lies with myself. I believe Myrta is a complex human being and the affair occurred because a multitude of factors were in place and the opportunity was there.

Myrta said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As far as changing myself, I really don’t know what was it that make me have the affair, since there are many things that could had been the trigger! <hr /></blockquote>I agree.

Pep said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Are you someone who only feels good and satisfied with herself when you are getting praise and attention from someone else? <hr /></blockquote>Myrta has said from day one that she craves romance. I think that the temptation of brand new romance was hard to resist. The only thing I can do is to try to compete with the thrill of a new romance, but this may be easier said than done when she has seen my face most of her life. In any event it may very well have nothing to do with my face, charm, or appearance. I think Myrta simply enjoys the attention and romance and this may work even if it comes from me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You sound a lot like her and that is why I'd like to respond here.
In fact it was weird and painful for me that I couldn't help her. If she would have had an A with someone else. She was in a lot of fog the first few months, very remorseful but also full of "how wonderful my H was" and saying hurtful things like "how he really knows how to please a woman and that she really enjoyed it". I felt like someone from another planet was talking to me, and I asked her how she could be so insensitive to tell me this, to which she replied, "I'm NOT insensitive!!". I guess she really didn't understand that she would hurt me by saying such things. She thinks I'm very perfect and can handle everything, so she was very confused when she saw I was in pain.<hr /></blockquote>Let’s face it--- WSs and OPs have a lot in common---- low self-esteem and poor reality assessment. Myrta’s OM was completely out of touch with reality and at the end he did not believe he was having an affair, but a normal relationship (they were a couple!).

The OM was delusional to the point of pretending Myrta was his wife and that my children were his. So I agree, there is a poor concept of reality and many of these folks are dreamers with a touch of selfishness It is very hard for Myrta to accept her OM was a low class individual despite the evidence. However, I was not there to hear classic “OM speak” which is designed to make WW believe she is the center of the universe. The constant praising of the OM was like someone was twisting a knife in my chest over and over again. In fact, I would say that 90% of our arguments had to do with Myrta defending the OM whenever I pointed out a deficiency.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She takes great care of her appearance and has rather low self-esteem. The discovery of the A made her realize that. Her H doesn't know but losing me as a friend hit her hard and made her look at herself. She said it will take a long time for her to feel good about herself again. <hr /></blockquote>I have not explored this issue in great detail, but my fear is that if the self-esteem was low it could be even lower now and that worries me a lot since that is a major cause of infidelity.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />She never intended to leave her H, she just wanted to have this experience, she said she could love two men etc. etc. And it never occurred to her she would hurt me (or her H) because she really thought I'd never find out. She actually said "I didn't think it was wrong because it felt so good" and I'm beginning to understand that. <hr /></blockquote>This sounds like Myrta-------- She said that at the appropriate time she would have ended the affair and I would not have suffered.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />try to understand what your partner is saying and feeling. Don't discuss. Don't defend or attack. What he feels, what you feel, is just that - feelings. Sometimes we can say things to change that feeling because it's based on incorrect information. Sometimes it's based on the truth and then we can only accept it. It's a person's very individual response to a situation, and even that person cannot know how they're going to react to an A. <hr /></blockquote>I told my Myrta after D-day: If I had an affair I would immediately dump the OW and would not contradict you if you felt OW was a whore. In fact the last thing I would do would be to defend the OW. I would also change all phones, give away all passwords and make my life an open book. However, at that time I had no concept that folks in affairs actually fall in love. Things like fog or withdrawal were foreign concepts. The idea that WWs try to play both sides of the fence with BH and OM was something I did not know.

I still do not understand the mindset of WWs and OMs. If I fell in love the way they did I would be a goner. IN fact if I fell in love with another woman the way Myrta fell in love with OM I could not stay in the marriage. So I am puzzled by Myrta’s desire to stay. I read the emails I know this was true love and now she is here with me. I don’t get it and I still feel like a 2nd rate substitute for a true lover who is no longer available. This is how I feel, but at the same time I have no fear of the competition the OM offers. My only concern is the desire of this man to destroy my marriage. Another manifestation of selfishness and poor reality assessment.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think accepting my own feelings - whatever they were - as well as my H's and OW's feelings - whatever they were - helped me immensely. It then makes you think "ok, so what shall we do now?" And being able to do something, rather than dwell on my emotions, feels so much better. I learned to calmly state what was going on inside me instead of keeping it all in. I learned to accept my H's reactions and to accept he's not perfect. <hr /></blockquote>I am doing this fairly well and I don’t mind Myrta telling me what she feels. However, she keeps her feelings to herself. She cannot open herself to me because she fears I will reject her. I want her to be more open, but she is fearful. OTOH, it was easy to be open with OM as he was like her a man with low self-esteem looking for an ego booster. She saw eye to eye with OM--- she is unable to do that with me.

Myrta,

I have not abandoned you, have been traveling this week and am still traveling. You would do well to listen to Pep, she has a unique way of getting to the core of things that, while sometimes painful, is ALWAYS enlightening. Her questions will go deep into your thinking.

As for being 49, well have you figured out you are the kid on the block? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Even that other "kid" KiwiJ (Jenny) is older than you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

As for being "to old to learn new tricks", you are wrong, NOW is a great time to learn new things. As for changing, I don't think Stanley wants you to change one bit. What you need to do, and what would help him, is if you would change your PERSPECTIVE on things. That you can change, and it will help both of you.

I get the impression that while you are probably a very introspective person, empathy is NOT as strong as it should be. That suggests that your perspective on the world can be broadened. Try seeing the world from your H's eyes. I don't mean just the A, or the marriage, but your children, his job, and YOU.

Step back and see the world differently and I think you will find that as you do, you and Stanley will recover nicely. It is a perspective thing, you said so yourself. You did not feel your A would hurt Stanley because he would never KNOW. But, you did not include in your perspective that you would start to deny him in the bedroom, start to withdraw from him emotionally, and start to lie to him. You did NOT see those things as hurtful to him.

As I said it is a perspective issue, not a "let's change Myrta into someone else" issue.

Now go back and read Pep's last posts and see if there are some changes in your perspective that would allow you to see were modifications in perpsective could help and prevent what has happened.

Must hit the road. You have a lot of people pulling for you Myrta, not the least of which is your H. You are a fortunate woman, and I hope your perpsective has broadened enough to realize that.

God Bless,

JL

JUSTLEARNING!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am happy to see you did not forget about me! I thought that maybe you thought I "was alost case" or that I "did not need any more help"
But, you are back ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
SGT.PEPPER she is allright,yes. She makes lots of sense in what she says, but she is not YOU <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I had never seen her post before. And she likes to read too much (whatsnot there) in between the lines!
You are right in your assesment of me, of not putting myself enough in my husband's position. To see things his way. But as you have noticed and called it a disrespect, when I did, I was wrong. So maybe I had tried to put myself and try to think like me, but the conclussions that I get are usually wrong <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> So, you asking me that, and Pepper too, makes me a bit uneasy, because I want to be right assesing others!! I think I can do pretty well with strangers, and other people, but not with my husband! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I dont know why is that, maybe because I had been with him so long? I dont know! Or maybe I dont know him as well, as I should?
Just Learning, my husband is very not trusting of me, and that hurts me a lot. Because NOW that I am doing everything the way its supposed to be done, he thinks I am being unsincere. He thinks that I still have contact with the OM. He is always pressing me, to tell him something that its only in his imagination. I really, really closed the door to the OM last time I talked to him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
It makes me kind of sad, ( I know it shouldn't) but it does. The OM was very hurt, and told me never to call him or get in touch with him. My husband thinks thats BS from his part, but I think he m eant it. Not that I was planning to communicate but I did not like to hear those words coming from his mouth! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I had lunch with my husband today at "La Madeline" a french cafe close to where he works / he was behaving like he was in a date with a new girlfriend. He gets so hot and bothered when he is close to me, that it amazes me. We had been married 30 years!!! What do you think of that???
He does tell me all the time, that he likes the way I am. That he fell in love with me, because of the way I am. But yet, he censors my actions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I am being a bit sarcastic, sorry about that.
I dont know, today I feel a bit down, because it looks like my husband is never going to trust me again. And that makes me pull away from him, and that makes me scared. My mind wonders in every direction!
You really think I am not too old to learn new tricks? Hmm, I dont know, it looks hard, to try to change how you want to be. Although I never had an affair before!
I dont see myself as being sooooo insecure and in need or craving for constant attention. My husband and people in this forum think that only very insecure people with low self esteem get involved in affairs. I dont know. Powerful people ,leaders of the world (Clinton, Kennedy) have done that too, but yet everyone would think they are so self assured. There has to be otherthings, that are very important for people to do that to their spouse!
I am sorry, I've been rambling!
I guess my thoughts are coming in spurts, and I write them.
Thanks for your advice, I still need it!
Have a safe trip back!
MYRTA

P.S. I wanted to let you in a little secret about myself!
My real name is not Myrta. :

[ October 06, 2004, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]

Myrta,

Thought I would respond to somethings you said. <blockquote>quote:<hr />JUSTLEARNING!!!! I am happy to see you did not forget about me! I thought that maybe you thought I "was alost case" or that I "did not need any more help"
But, you are back !<hr /></blockquote>Nah! you are not a lost case. However, sometimes when other people are posting to you and you are responding to them and it seems to be going well, I think it best just to read and Learn from you and the other posters.

Plus this stuff takes time and you would get tired of talking to just me, and there are so many people here that can offer you perspectives I cannot. It was the same with Jenny (KiwiJ) and others. So don't worry.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />SGT.PEPPER she is allright,yes. She makes lots of sense in what she says, but he is not YOU
I had never seen her post before. And she likes to read too much (whatsnot there) in between the lines!<hr /></blockquote>Actually, you will find that Pep assumes almost nothing. She has a very interesting way of gathering information from a poster before she starts to offer advice. You will find her very insightful. So her questions that seem to be coming out of left field are her way of seeing if there is more to the story, more information that she can use to help. She is really amazingly good at this, and I think in her "real" life she deals with similar issues.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You are right in your assesment of me, of not putting myself enough in my husband's position. To see things his way. But as you have noticed and called it a disrespect, when I did, I was wrong. So maybe I had tried to put myself and try to think like me, but the conclussions that I get are usually wrong <hr /></blockquote>Ah Myrta, here is the secret. If you want to see things from another persons perspective, you ask them what they feel, what they see, what they need help with, and their answers will allow you to see things from their perspective. Guessing or assuming will get you into trouble.

Think about my posts to you very early on, and about Pep's posts recently. We probed different areas to get information from you, and gradually as you have talked here, have you noticed that fewer things seem to set you teeth on edge? That is because we are getting to know you, getting to see things from YOUR perspective, and then we can offer advice. Now you may not like it, but we are more on target with it.

You need to do this with your H. He needs your advice on things, but it must come to him from a perspective he understands.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So, you asking me that, and Pepper too, makes me a bit uneasy, because I want to be right assesing others!! I think I can do pretty well with strangers, and other people, but not with my husband! I dont know why is that, maybe because I had been with him so long? I dont know! Or maybe I dont know him as well, as I should?<hr /></blockquote>Well, we never know our spouses as well as we should it seems, but I also think you are misjudging yourself. It is easier to get an assessment of a stranger because the assessment is of a surface level. In this situation, you need to assess parts of your H, they you may have not realized existed or were as sensitive as they are. Your actions have caused some very very deep things to be addressed and it is much harder to assess these things. It requires really good communications and discussions that while painful are done in a way that protects both of you. This is NOT something most of us are used to doing. It takes time and practice, but I sense you are getting better at it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Just Learning, my husband is very not trusting of me, and that hurts me a lot. Because NOW that I am doing everything the way its supposed to be done, he thinks I am being unsincere. He thinks that I still have contact with the OM. He is always pressing me, to tell him something that its only in his imagination. I really, really closed the door to the OM last time I talked to him.
It makes me kind of sad, ( I know it shouldn't) but it does. The OM was very hurt, and told me never to call him or get in touch with him. My husband thinks thats BS from his part, but I think he m eant it. Not that I was planning to communicate but I did not like to hear those words coming from his mouth!<hr /></blockquote>This is normal Myrta, very normal. It will fade away as your feelings of OM do. If you want to short circuit some of this, YOU bring it up to him in the form of how are you feeling? Is there something I can help your with? This often puts the conversation on a different plane. As it is now he brings it up when he is hurting the most and in that state NO ONE listens well. So you bring it up when he is just relaxing, or there is a quiet moment. You know what they say Myrta "The best defense is a good offense."
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I had lunch with my husband today at "La Madeline" a french cafe close to where he works / he was behaving like he was in a date with a new girlfriend. He gets so hot and bothered when he is close to me, that it amazes me. We had been married 30 years!!! What do you think of that???<hr /></blockquote>I think I am envious of both of you, is what I think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I also think you don't appreciate how cool this really is. Enjoy it, encourage it, and don't let it go.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />He does tell me all the time, that he likes the way I am. That he fell in love with me, because of the way I am. But yet, he censors my actions.<hr /></blockquote>Of course he does, that is why he will remain married to you. He loves you Myrta, and that is what attracts him and hurts him. He will continue to adjust and heal. Just give it time. As for censoring your actions, you would need to define for me what that means. I am sure his trust issues, are causing him to behave in a manner he doesn't usually behave.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am being a bit sarcastic, sorry about that.
I dont know, today I feel a bit down, because it looks like my husband is never going to trust me again. And that makes me pull away from him, and that makes me scared. My mind wonders in every direction!<hr /></blockquote>Patience young lady. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> You need patience. You have been aware of this situation for 2 years, he has been aware of it what?? 4 maybe 5 months. You have a huge advantage in this thing as you know everything and he is learning a lot. So give it time and have patience.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />You really think I am not too old to learn new tricks? Hmm, I dont know, it looks hard, to try to change how you want to be. Although I never had an affair before!<hr /></blockquote>In a odd way you answered your own question. You already made a huge change with the introduction of OM into your life. So what you are doing now is not so big. It is really just a shift in perpective.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I dont see myself as being sooooo insecure and in need or craving for constant attention. My husband and people in this forum think that only very insecure people with low self esteem get involved in affairs. I dont know. Powerful people ,leaders of the world (Clinton, Kennedy) have done that too, but yet everyone would think they are so self assured.<hr /></blockquote>Most people that define themselves by the power they have over other people are NOT SECURE. Plus, they also view having other women as part of the "perks" of the office. I don't know if you are insecure or not, but clearly you sought another individual in your quest to be happy. When a secure person might have addressed this by being happy with themself. I don't know the answer.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> There has to be otherthings, that are very important for people to do that to their spouse!
I am sorry, I've been rambling!<hr /></blockquote>What do you think those might be? I am curious.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I guess my thoughts are coming in spurs, and I write them.
Thanks for your advice, I still need it!<hr /></blockquote>You will do fine Myrta, just give it time and be kind to your H. He has some healing to do, and he has some perpectives to change as well. I'll probably talk with him about this in the near future. You two are doing well. So enjoy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />P.S. I wanted to let you in a little secret about myself!
My real name is not Myrta. : <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> That's Ok, mine isn't JL either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Yet, you did chose a nice login name. Has sort of a mysterious ring to it doesn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

JUST LEARNING!! Now I see why you chose that name, it is because you just sit back and Learn from me and other posters! So, you are "just learning" as you read us!! Interesting, clever name! Hmm, I sort of knew your name was not JL, no mother will call her child JustLearning!
I dont think I sought another person in my quest for happiness, I sought another person because there was something lacking in my marriage. I was not necessarily seeking happiness, just "something" that was missing!! I thought I found it, when I was in the affair. But what I did not think was that I was hurting my marriage and my husband, and now because of that, there is lack of trust!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I rather be like I was before ,than living with a man that does not trust me completely. You know, sometimes, I feel, like he is trying to "cut my wings", like I am a bird, and I just can walk, not fly!
I feel like I have to watch and study whats going to come out of mymouth, so I dont hurt myhusband. and I think he feels the same way, but not in regards to the OM. He really goes all out with him!
There are some things that I like, because of the affair; for instance, my husband has become more alive, more sexual, more attentive to me, more "in love" or maybe "in lust". But I give ALL that away for him to trust me completely again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You see? I miss him trusting me completely, with his eyes close, not even thinking about it. Now, that is gone, for a long time, maybe forever!!!
I like Sgt.Pepper's posts, but not as much as I like yours. I guess I look up to you, I would like to become the same kind of person you are. You have the same qualities of my husband, but I guess because you are a neutral person talking to me, I can see those traits better. You are very righteous, moral, serious, just like Stanley. Yup!
I dont want to lose how my husband and I are now. It is very cool indeed, that he has the "hots "for me again. That he pays so much attention to me. But sometimes, my insecurities get a hold of me, and I think to myself. He is pretending to be this way, but he really does not feel it.
It is stupid that I think like that, but I cannot help it!
Thanks again!
Back from your travels?

MYRTA

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Myrta:
I dont think I sought another person in my quest for happiness, I sought another person because there was something lacking in my marriage. I was not necessarily seeking happiness, just "something" that was missing!! I thought I found it, when I was in the affair.<hr /></blockquote>What did you find?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But what I did not think was that I was hurting my marriage and my husband, and now because of that, there is lack of trust!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I rather be like I was before ,than living with a man that does not trust me completely. You know, sometimes, I feel, like he is trying to "cut my wings", like I am a bird, and I just can walk, not fly!<hr /></blockquote>There is trust and blind trust. Trust comes from knowledge, Blind Trust comes from denial. One embraces reality, the other fantasy. Which do you prefer your H have for you?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I feel like I have to watch and study whats going to come out of my mouth, so I dont hurt my husband. and I think he feels the same way, but not in regards to the OM. He really goes all out with him!<hr /></blockquote>And this is bad because?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There are some things that I like, because of the affair; for instance, my husband has become more alive, more sexual, more attentive to me, more "in love" or maybe "in lust".<hr /></blockquote>Affairs are wakeup calls. They are like a bucket of icy cold water thrown at someone's face and makes them realize that nobody owns anybody and that a person is with another because he/she wills it and that one day he/she may leave for good.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But I give ALL that away for him to trust me completely again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You see? I miss him trusting me completely, with his eyes close, not even thinking about it. Now, that is gone, for a long time, maybe forever!!!<hr /></blockquote>You want him to trust you so soon after D-day? That is tantamount to asking a person that was severely injured in an vehicle accident and hospitalized, to get up his/her bed and do ballet, it ain't going to happen. You want to help your H start trusting you? Become totally accountable to him, not as a sign of subjugation but as a sign of love. In time, he will regain his trust in you, not because of your words but because of your actions.

[ October 07, 2004, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Hello Myrta,

my post was intended for you but it was Stanley who responded <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Please let me know if you would like to answer to JL's posts exclusively or if posts from others are also welcome.

BROWNHAIR!!! sorry about that. Sometimes there are many post directed to me and I miss some! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
That is really bad what happened to you with your "best friend". Thats one "below the buckle".
I was just like her, I guess, yes. At the beginning of my foggy days, I would say things that I am sure hurt my husband a lot, but I did not think that I was doing anything wrong.
For a time, I thought I was being a "nice person" giving my love to two men! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Thats how deep in the fog I was. I really thought, that no one was going to get help and that I was a good deed too. But after coming slowly out of my fog, I see the magnitude of what I did to my husband. He has suffer like never in his life!! He was so carefree before, so easy going, and now he is so wired and watchful all the time. His personality was so much more relax than mine, and now he is almost worst than me. I always have to be moving and doing stuff to release some of my energy,I have too much! Now, he is like that, but with ME. He is always trying to get the "love" that he thinks he lost.
I want to fully accept my mistake, but it is hard to come out and say that. I am not ready to accept full responsability yet. It feels better
to shift blames to husband,OM and myself. But I know, only oneself is responsible for what we choose to do. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I think realizing what I did, is making me kind of depressed lately. I feel like I cannot give myself to my husband, because he deserves better and better is not ME~!
Sometimes my husband is patient with me, but other times he gets really irritated and angry that I am not throwing myself at him and being completely out of the fog already. He wants me to forget forever already the OM. But ,like JL, he brings him up a lot himself. He brings memories back, by making me tell him details of different things.
Well, thank you for your advice,BROWNHAIR. Do you have brownhair??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MYRTA

TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN--I know is too soon for my husband to trust me compleely again. But Ijust wish for it. I wish things were different, that the Affair never happened and everything was like before, easy going,no tension, no hard feelings.
Of course it is going to take time for him to trust me. I would like to be more patient too, and fully accept that it is going to be a long process. But I guess like my husband I would like things to be faster and be out of the woods" already.
Well, I really dont appreciate so much him
putting down so much the OM, since after all, I was dumb enough to be with him. I guess all those derrogatory that he says about the OM, could be apply as well to me? He is always saying (my husband)that the OM and WW are birds of the same feather. So, if he is a scum bag, I must be one too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I think he should not talk about him at all!!! He should wait that I offer him the info, when I am good and ready. And that has happened. I just come suddenly and tell him things and it is much easier, because I am talking with out been pressure to do it.
TMCM--I dont understand what you are telling me saying "TRUST COMES FROM KNOWLEDGE-BLIND TRUST COMES FROM DENIAL" ONE EMBRACES REALITY THE OTHER FANTASY!
Can you explain that one to me again! sorry about that!
Thanks for your input!@

MYRTA

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Myrta:
TMCM--I dont understand what you are telling me saying "TRUST COMES FROM KNOWLEDGE-BLIND TRUST COMES FROM DENIAL" ONE EMBRACES REALITY THE OTHER FANTASY!
Can you explain that one to me again! sorry about that!
Thanks for your input!@

MYRTA<hr /></blockquote>Myrta

There's no need to be sorry and I will explain what I mean by trust and blind trust.

Trust is you and your H knowing that at any time BOTH of you are willing to be accountable for each others actions without getting angry or defensive for it because the goal of this accountability is to ease any unfounded fears. The people who practice Trust give the benefit of the doubt to the other spouse and are more than happy to put their fears or concerns at ease by being an open book to them.

Blind trust is the opposite, it loathes mutual accountability and relies on defensive and manipulative tactics based on 'If you truly love me, you would trust me and wouldn't be questioning me' to make one spouse feel guilty for approaching the other with his/her fears or concerns regarding the other's unusual behaviors. The people who are advocates of this kind of trust, consider that they do not have any responsibility in helping their spouses end their fears and concerns.

Now that you know the difference, which would you and your H, rather have?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Myrta:
I don’t think I sought another person in my quest for happiness, I sought another person because there was something lacking in my marriage. I was not necessarily seeking happiness, just "something" that was missing!! I thought I found it, when I was in the affair.<hr /></blockquote>I think Myrta wanted the romance of a brand new relationship and that is something that a husband cannot provide because by definition the husband is not new. Myrta’s affair was all about those sensations that are mostly present in brand new relationships. Her plan was to leave the affair once that phase was gone.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />TMCH said
Affairs are wakeup calls. They are like a bucket of icy cold water thrown at someone's face and makes them realize that nobody owns anybody and that a person is with another because he/she wills it and that one day he/she may leave for good.
<hr /></blockquote>In a strange way I really wanted Myrta to leave me as soon as I learned of the affair. Once I read the emails I said to myself: “game over, she really likes this man”. I hoped that she would leave the marriage. At that point that was the easy way out for me. I didn’t want to struggle with making the decision of staying versus leaving. I recall that I practically begged her to go with the OM------ I was really a fool!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
But I give ALL that away for him to trust me completely again! You see? I miss him trusting me completely, with his eyes close, not even thinking about it. Now, that is gone, for a long time, maybe forever!!!
<hr /></blockquote>If it helps---------- I don’t think I could trust anyone. If I had separated from Myrta and had to date another woman I would not trust her either. The innocence is gone-------- now I know why a friend of mine use to tell me constantly "trust no one". He came up with this after his wife left him for a younger man.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
You want him to trust you so soon after D-day? That is tantamount to asking a person that was severely injured in an vehicle accident and hospitalized, to get up his/her bed and do ballet, it ain't going to happen. You want to help your H start trusting you? Become totally accountable to him, not as a sign of subjugation but as a sign of love. In time, he will regain his trust in you, not because of your words but because of your actions.
<hr /></blockquote>I think the BIG setback regarding trust was the constant communication with OM behind my back after D-day. During this time I told my wife about the importance of NC on a daily basis and I had her read the literature from this site regarding NC. I also discussed the issue on a daily basis and she always assured me there was no contact. I don’t mean to rehash this, but in retrospect, this removed any vestige of trust I had.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
For a time, I thought I was being a "nice person" giving my love to two men! That’s how deep in the fog I was. I really thought, that no one was going to get help and that I was a good deed too. <hr /></blockquote>Yes--- I remember this statement by Myrta. She said that having a situation where the OM provided the romance ENs and I the other ENs was the best of both worlds. She stated she was high as a kite and with a tremendous level of energy. She envisioned this system as the perfect setup for her and learned how to put everything in compartments.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I think realizing what I did, is making me kind of depressed lately. I feel like I cannot give myself to my husband, because he deserves better and better is not ME~!
Sometimes my husband is patient with me, but other times he gets really irritated and angry that I am not throwing myself at him and being completely out of the fog already. He wants me to forget forever already the OM.<hr /></blockquote>I am well aware the withdrawal is alive and well---- it is not easy to deal with that. As someone said--- withdrawal starts with the last day on NC and that was just the other day (I hope).

TOO MUCHCOFFEEMAN- HMM, so thats what you mean?
Do I really have to choose one or the other?
To me BLIND TRUST in a person, is that you trust the other person with your eyes close. Thats the way my husband used to trust me. He never thought possible that I would be unfaithful to him, thats blind trust to me. But, I am not in the believe that one should trust another person like that. I have never trust him like that. Because I dont know how he will react to things. I dont know how women might approach him, to make him weaken. I know that does not sound too good, but thats the way I have always being. I never trusted him completely. He, on the other hand, trusted me with his eyes closed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Right now, I might get angry with the "truth" but it is because I know I am accountable for what happened. But I am too ashamed to admit it. I really,really, messed our relationship, because he believed in me. I thought I could get away with it! Sad mistake, dont you think?
Yes, I am defensive,and angry, but it is because my husband trust me with his eyes close and I changed that with my actions! Now I have to attain to the consecuences. I know I am not an "open book" yet, but I am almost there. It is hard to admit and talk about everything that transpired between me and the OM.
Do you understand what I am saying?

P.S. I feel lower than the bottom of a shoe!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Myrta:
 I feel lower than the bottom of a shoe! <hr /></blockquote>I have not posted on this thread before, but have read much of it and admire both you and Stanley for being willing to dialog AND share with all of us as well. This has been a huge learning experience (for me anyway) about how people can work through these things, both individually in dealing with the emotions and baggage, and as a couple trying to work it out.

I hope you can find a way to forgive yourself. For whatever you are still beating yourself up about, I would hope you can give yourself credit for the maturity it takes to follow the most difficult course you are now on. I do NOT think you have taken the easy road, but perhaps the road less traveled instead.

Take care!

Myrta,

I was going to respond to your earlier post, but the Coffeeman answered first and did a much better job than I. I think he pinpointed some things with regards to the trust that are very important.

I found your response to the "blind trust" issue interesting. You never trusted Stanley blindly because you always feared something would happen. But the one thing you did not fear did happen. You never feared that you would fail to protect your marriage. You failed to be honest with Stanley about what you needed or wanted.

Myrta, you will get trust from Stanley again. I am sure of it, but it will be the sort of trust you have for him. The GIFT of "blind trust" he gave you, has been crushed beneath your feet as you walked out to meet OM. It is lost now, but you had it for almost 28 years perhaps almost 30 years. You know it is something you ought to thank your H for. It was a gift.

I also do think as you come to face this full on, you will hear less about OM. I believe you are correct that your H talks about OM and unloads on him becuase he cannot do that to you. But, the reality is that OM did not betray your H, you did.

It is a sad thing to realize it. But...along with this sadness, is the realization that your H loves you enough to want to stay married to you. That he loves you enough to work on rebuilding, and yes that is what is going on here. You two are working on the rebuilding of the marriage.

You two are still sorting out things, but I believe soon you will be ready to face rebuilding.

Hang in there Myrta, you and Stanley have a lot of people pulling for you.

God Bless,

JL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Myrta:
Do I really have to choose one or the other?
To me BLIND TRUST in a person, is that you trust the other person with your eyes close. Thats the way my husband used to trust me. He never thought possible that I would be unfaithful to him, thats blind trust to me. But, I am not in the believe that one should trust another person like that. I have never trust him like that. Because I dont know how he will react to things. I dont know how women might approach him, to make him weaken. I know that does not sound too good, but thats the way I have always being. I never trusted him completely. He, on the other hand, trusted me with his eyes closed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Yes, I am defensive,and angry, but it is because my husband trust me with his eyes close and I changed that with my actions! Now I have to attain to the consecuences. I know I am not an "open book" yet, but I am almost there. It is hard to admit and talk about everything that transpired between me and the OM.
Do you understand what I am saying?<hr /></blockquote>I think I do and its good to know that you acknowledge that blind trust is not good. But I would question whether your anger is really because your H will no longer be supplying you with that blind trust. Yearning for that blind trust is to forget that it was the enabler of your affair. But is it really such a huge loss if it means that your marriage will become a better one where the two of you will be accountable to one another?

I never bothered to check cell phone bills, Email passwords, or question anything my Myrta did.

If I had been that kind of husband I would have discovered the affair before it got off the ground.

My wife never tried to hide the cell phone bill even though the evidence was all there. I have not paid a bill in years, I never had a clue about where money was going.

Myrta had full control of everything and the OM knew this. BTW, OM at times implied that I was a controlling husband. HAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stanley568:
BTW, OM at times implied that I was a controlling husband. HAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <hr /></blockquote>What's the matter with you Stanley? Don't you know that we BS are a bunch of control freaks? [sarcasm]
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The idea of an affair as a wakeup call is a very important one in my view.

I know that in my case, it crystailized a lot of things: including the fact that I have to a much better job of meeting certain needs.

I think there are events in every life - and in every relationship - which bring you to a crossroad. The choice here, as I see it, is to let go...or to go forward to a better place.

I think the most dangerous choice is to do nothing - to continue down the path that brought everyone to the precipice inthe first place.

It's awful and I hate to say it. But..my wife's indiscretion has struck me like a lightning bolt. I know now that there are fundamental changes that need to be made to our marriage.

Stanley, along the same lines you were talking about:

My wife hardly ever used her cell phone until this summer. Basically, she used it call me. That was it.

Anyway, last month, I see our most recent bill. I notice that there are a number of calls to a certain number.

I call it..and it turns out to be her best friend's number.

The best friend's husband answers. And I sayd.."Oh, sorry [NAME], I must have dialed the wrong number."

So what do I do..nothing. Despite the fact that these calls were made at odd hours of the day - and that the OM's wife was out of the country.

I figured my wife was doing what her friend asked her to do while she was gone - "keep an eye" on her husband.

Of course, I find out now that HE'S the guy she slept with.

Ironic, huh?

Andrew: I have not paid a bill or looked at a bill since I got married.

If I was in the habit of looking at bills I would have discovered this when there was no physical interaction. Number of cell calls during affair averaged 750 per month. Number of calls after affair about 200-250. You do the math! OM was very expensive as I also paid all incoming calls.

II discovered the affair because my wife acted strange when I approached one day while she was at the computer. Of course, there is more to the story, for several months she had been very distant and had refused my advances in the bedroom. I downloaded key-logger which is for free (if you use it for 10 days) and immediately got her email password----- and as they say the rest is history.

The funny thing is that my wife always knew my email password and checked my mail periodically. I never asked for her password and it never occurred to me to check her email. I REALLY TRUSTED HER! She was like the foundation of who I was as a person so I couldn't see myself checking up on her.

TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN=ANDREW=STANLEY

HEY GUYS, THIS IS MY THREAD, NOT STANLEYS!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

DejaVu---Wow, really you admire both my husband and I? Not only my husband?
NO, I think I have nothing to be admire at this time. What I did, and what I'm doing posting here does not deserve any credit.
I have found out, that by posting in this forum I examine myself much better, because I can put my thoughts when I get them. When I talk to my husband, he overhwelms with his presence and what he wants to know, and I get fuzzy in what I really want to tell him.
Who had the affair in your marriage?
I hope your recovery is going well.
Myrta

TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN---No, my anger is not because my husband no longer trusts me with blind trust. My anger is because my husband does not trust me at all!!! Blindly or openly, he just doesn't!!! I lost all his trust by doing what I did.
Is knowing this, acknowledging that blind trust is not good,is that really going to make a better marriage?

Myrta

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Myrta:
 DejaVu---Wow, really you admire both my husband and I? Not only my husband?
NO, I think I have nothing to be admire at this time. What I did, and what I'm doing posting here does not deserve any credit.<hr /></blockquote>I disagree, respectfully. I see courage - not only to admit your mistakes, but to do so in a public forum and be willing to take the heat and be embarrassed in front of other people. To not run away from what you did, and to try and make it right. These are things that are rare qualities in most people. If more people had these qualities, there would be fewer people digging in their heels because they couldn't admit to being "wrong."

If you don't mind the advice, I think you need to balance these qualities you have against the past and stop living in the past. The past is about behavior - the present is about YOU and who you are inside. The guilt belongs to the past, and you've spent enough time there. How are you going to recover if you don't see the good in yourself? See what you have to offer, not what you messed up? Bring self-respect - not self-loathing - into your relationship. From what I've read from you so far, I'm sure you're up to the challenge. YOu are really a strong woman, you know?

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Who had the affair in your marriage? I hope your recovery is going well.<hr /></blockquote>Nobody had an affair in this marriage. It was in a different lifetime and a different marriage - not the present one (it was me in my first marriage.) It is why I KNOW I will never do it again, no matter what. There is NOTHING that is worth the price or pain it caused either of us. Enough time has passed and I have never waivered in that decision, so I know it is for real.

With respect to recovery - we are still together, but under the umbrella of a D that H has promised will come to pass, and sworn is the only solution for him. We are living a life of the totally bizarre right now. I imagine there will be recovery of some kind at some time - either together or separately, I just don't know which and don't know how much I will be beaten down before I get there.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Myrta:
[QB] TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN---No, my anger is not because my husband no longer trusts me with blind trust. My anger is because my husband does not trust me at all!!! Blindly or openly, he just doesn't!!! I lost all his trust by doing what I did.<hr /></blockquote>Ok you are angry, now what are you going to do with it? Are you going to use it to become an angry and bitter woman that nobody is going to want to be around? OR Are you going to take that anger and use it to become a better person than the one you were before and during the affair? The choice is yours alone.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Is knowing this, acknowledging that blind trust is not good,is that really going to make a better marriage?

Myrta<hr /></blockquote>It will if you and your H make it a part of who you want to be.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Myrta:
..my anger is not because my husband no longer trusts me with blind trust. My anger is because my husband does not trust me at all!!! Blindly or openly, he just doesn't!!! I lost all his trust by doing what I did.
Is knowing this, acknowledging that blind trust is not good,is that really going to make a better marriage?<hr /></blockquote>Dear Myrta,
first of all, thanks for replying <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . And yes, I do have brown hair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> with some grey peeping through...

Secondly.. I guess it's hard for you to see that trust gone. It will come back. Try to put yourself in your H's shoes. He can't look inside your head and know/feel what is there. If you tell him, he doesn't know if it's the truth or not, how could he? He isn't there when you are having contact with OM. He can only judge you by your actions right now. And you still having contact with OM is very hurtful to him, I hope you will understand that some day (soon).

This naïve, blind trust is what we have in life until "something happens". We never think about burglary until someone breaks into our house. I never thought my H would have an A until he did. The rug has been pulled out from under my feet, as it has been from your H's, and we need time to get back on our feet, look for a different rug <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and heal our bruises.

The rug is our view of life. It gets changed suddenly and drastically and we certainly didn't ask for it or have any choice in the matter, so there's a lot to deal with.

My H would rather not talk about the A anymore.. He said "Do you really want to keep on thinking about it?" Funny, just the other day in "Seventh Heaven" the same question was asked by a mother who's daughter had been raped by the mother's boyfriend. (Boyfriend disappeared from their lives afterwards.) Reverend Camden answered: "There really is no time limit to these things. She needs to be able to talk about it when she wants. She needs to hear that it wasn't her fault." Like we BS need to hear that you really still love us, that you made a stupid mistake, that you learned your lesson, until we really believe it and don't think you're just saying it to make us change the subject.

I hope you understand. The more you show understanding for your H, the more he'll be able to feel safe and understand you too. Don't play the game of "but HE has to do it first!!". Be strong and do it anyway... it's worth it, really.

(((Myrta)))

[ October 08, 2004, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]

DEJAVU---so, there is no affair in your marriage, but yet you are under the umbrella of Divorce? Why is that? Why a bizarre life? I am sorry about your situation, does not sound peaceful!
As far as me trying to balance my act. It is kind of hard to tell you the truth. I want to live in the present indeed, like JL says, concentrate in the marriage now. But my husband concentrates too much in how I felt when I was the affair. He is still too interested in the OM. And that does not let us move forward faster.
I do not like myself too much these days, you are right. I am still too ashamed of what I did.
It is embarrasing to vent the affair right here yes, I wonder, wow, they probably think I am this callous,bad woman, with no regards to no one. But I dont think I am. The affair just happened, it creeped into my life, I was in before I realize it. One day I told myself,"I am having an affair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But I could not stop it then! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I do admit I was wrong yes, but I admit it with some reservations, because Like I told TMCM, and JL,and others, I dont want to have all the responsability of it. But, I should, shouldn't I?

Thanks for your words of encouragement!

MYRTA

TMCM---I really dont want to become an angry bitter woman. I see those kinds of people everywhere, and it is not a pretty sight. Those people are so negative that they push goodness away from them. But sometimes I see myself,becoming that way. Angry, that I was in this affair. angry, that my husband found me out,angry because I did not stop the affair, before that happenning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> And many times I stopped it, but like some kind of "fix" I got pulled in again.
I do want to use the affair, as a "wake up call"
as a reason to make my marriage better, more exciting, more loving, with more understaning and communication. But I am finding out that it is easier say than done. It is hard to make all those commimenments,because you feel so strange, because my husband is looking at me with distrust.
The thing about "blind trust" is that, thats the trust that my husband wants back!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
MYRTA

Myrta

I see you are talking a lot about trust. This may come to you as a surprise, but immediately after D-day I was not dealing with trust issues. I was wounded and I trusted that you would cut off ties with OM immediately. In the following weeks I was trusting you more and more each day. Then, I found very strong evidence that you were in contact with OM and you calmly denied this over and over again for several weeks. In fact, I believed you every time you told me there was no contact. I looked in your eyes and I was convinced you were telling the truth. Then a few days later I would re-examine and analyze the evidence and the doubts would come back. I expressed these concerns and you looked me straight in the eye and told me some story that retrospectively was unbelievable. Yet------------ I believed you each time you talked to me because I wanted to believe in you SO BADLY.

I still want to believe in you very badly, but now I struggle with the fact that I cannot tell the Myrta that tells the truth from the other Myrta. This is a very scary feeling and to be honest I don’t really know how to deal with it. I wish you could help me get thru this.

Please, don’t take this as a recrimination of prior acts. IN retrospect I know you were trying to avoid conflict and trying to ease up the pain of breaking up the affair. I know you had no intentions of going back to the affair and perhaps you justified what you did as a form of protection to my wounded ego. I know you also wanted to protect others from my anger. So in a sense I assume your intentions were good, but I am still left with the impression that I cannot tell what is going on by simply looking deep into your eyes.

Myrta I know this is your thread but I must say that I what I wrote on my last post also applies to your H as well [Heck it even applies to all of us] so don't beleive that I'm just dumping this solely at your feet. You and your H are lucky than some of us whose marriages ended in divorce because our WS were to far gone and the love we had for them died. Learn to forgive not just your H, the OM, but yourself as well for how can you love your H if you hate yourself. I don't know you Myrta, but I suspect that you are a better person than you beleive you are.

Stanley, maybe I'm preaching to the choir here but please don't make the bone headed mistake that a lot of us BS make in holding the affair over your W's head every time you two have a disagreement. It is hard enough for Myrta to find it in her heart to forgive herself without you reminding her of it. If this is not the case with you then forgive me for bringing it up.

TMCM:

Believe or not I try hard not to beat Myrta over the head with the A. I might have done it in the 1st few weeks, but not anymore. I have forgiven her with all my herat.

I don't even want to talk about the A that much. I simply want Myrta to be more open with her feelings. For example last night she was quite depressed and she simply refused to say why. All I got were abstract words and hesitation to talk about why she felt the way she did. I have advised her quite often that talking make things better, but she remains quite closed about her feelings.

Otherwise, I believe we are doing great. But, that is my subjective impression. I may be doing great and she may have a lot of concerns that she keeps to herslf. I don't really know. I am more than willing to help her.

STANLEY---I understand what you are saying, but your reaction to knowing that I had been in contact with the OM was as violent, as when you found out of the Affair. Was it so neccessary all the anger, all the screams, all the recriminations? After all, you were aware, that it was quiet common for that to happen. YOU KNEW, you just did not want to acknowledge. I talked with him, yes, I saw him, one more time, but you know NOTHING happened. You know what was there before DD was gone. YOu knew....I was wrong in talking to him again, I know that, and I felt very bad when you would ask me and I kept on denying. But it was something that I thought it had to be done, for my mental sake. I wanted to let go easily <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . It was two years, to suddenly on DD day cut all ties, without looking back. Can you understand that?

MYRTA

Myrta,

But, you also KNEW that continuing contact with OM would and did hurt STanley. You KNEW that lying to him at that point while looking in the eyes was a terrible thing to do especially after two years of lies, and YET YOU DID THIS AS WELL.

You chose to protect OM's feelings more than you chose to protect Stanley's feelings. It is about protection Myrta and what Stanley is struggling with is will you protect him in the future. That is the trust issue. When you withdraw and not talk to him, you are not protecting him. I know you are still new at this, but you need to LOVE him in the biblical sense as a verb. That means actively protecting him. He needs to do the same to you.

His anger is born of pain of being deceived AGAIN. The first time was the affair up to d-day, but the second time actually hurt worse, because you KNEW.

So stop for a second and see if you and Stanley can get out of this circular thinking. It is time for action, not reaction. Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I really was not protecting the OM over my husband. More than anything I was protecting my husband. Even though I had contact again with the OM,nothing was going on. Yes, I did lie to him, and that hurt him a lot, but I lie to him, because he thought that I was this completely different WW,this rock of a woman, that was going to have a different path after DD. He knows, YOU know, that most if not all, re-establish contact in one way or the other. It is hard to completely, radically stop all contact once is discovered. Remember the fog, we still need that connection, even if it is a false connection, even if is Disneyworld,lies,I still needed it. I dont anymore, not that I am completely 100% good to go, but my fog is just slight. If I had felt this way after DD,,no contact would had happened. But that was not the case, the rapids have to run its course. The flow is a natural one,we cannot go against it. And like I told TMCM, we all have to deal with things our own way, the way it makes us function better.
Yeah, maybe I am putting myself before my husband, but if I dont feel good, I cannot make him happy. I have to soothe my spirit,my mind, maybe doing the wrong thing, by having contact with the OM. But that did helped tremendously in shortening my withdrawal, because what was coming out of his mouth,I did not like. I saw him different. He dissapointed me, by his words, by his actions. Yeah, I dissapointed my Husband, but in the long run, it was worth it for me, because the comparison of these two men is more visible. The differences are like night and day. JL, I told you before, that you remind me a lot of my husband,you are righteous,serious men, that value marriage and other things, the OM is not like that, even though he presented himself before, like a righteous person. He is not. Because even though I helped him go thru with the separation of his wife and three kids, (he was going thru hell) and it took him three years to co me out of it. He wanted me to leave everything for him. He wanted me just think in "our love", nothing else.
JL....my husband would never,ever put that kind of pressure in a married woman.
HIm being so callous ,talking to me,like it was so easy, after him going thru such mental turmouil, was scary,and uncalled for. He was just thinking about himself, not me. He could care less what I wanted to do. He just wanted to have me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
So,you see,JL, I might had been a liar again, but I THINK IT WAS WORTH IT!!!

THANKS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
MYRTA

[ October 08, 2004, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]

JL:

Let me be completely honest. It is highly frustrating for me to get this far and to have to deal with this stuff.

I AM IN LOVE WITH MYRTA.

I ALWAYS LOVED MYRTA

I CANNOT IMAGINE LOVING ANOTHER WOMAN

I HAVE FORGIVEN HER

I WANT TO MOVE ON

I AM 100% INTO THE RELAIONSHIP

MY SADNESS IS LIFTING

MY ANGER IS ALMOST COMPLETELY ONE

However, it ticks me off to deal with the fact that Myrta is still in love with OM (despite of what she says) and refuses to do something as simple as to get rid of some cheap presents that have no significant material worth of any kind. If they have value it must be emotional.

I am tired of not receiving the reciprocity that I used to get from her. When I get some romance I get the feeling she does with that someone else in mind.

This is nothing but a major humiliation trip for me thanks to a dirt ball that knows how to say what women want to hear. That is his only positive attribute. I am tired of all the consideration for the feelings of OM and how he must be suffering. I am more than willing not to talk about that dirtball, but I am very tired of dealing with this so-called withdrawal or fog. I am tired of this JL, and I find we go around in circles and I don’t have any outlet but to say nasty things about OM. Sorry about the insulting remarks to OM, but it is highly aggravating to lose my wife to such a piece of thrash. There ------- I have said it again.

Stanley,

Perhaps you should try another approach. Instead of talking about OM or even what Myrta did, why not simply be quiet and allow Myrta to do the talking. Allow her time to show you who she loves and who she wants to spend her life with.

Perhaps it is true that you have stated your case and that Myrta knows what you think about OM. So if this is so, then don't talk about it any more. It will lower your frustration, but it will not get rid of your pain. You will have to heal and there is little Myrta can do to hasten this, but there is a lot she can do make sure the healing is correct, leaves little scarring, and produces a functional marriage and husband.

In many ways I view this like bones. It will heal with minimal attention unless it is a compound fracture, but will it heal straight, will it heal so that it is strong again, will the person have a functioning whatever once the healing takes place?

You have to do the healing, but she must do the setting, the casting, and the rehab to make things functional again. It is her call, so let her make it.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL-
So what are you saying here? That he should let me do things my way? To make things function better?
Are u agreeing with what I posted to you?
Explain that one to me!

With lots of details! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Myrta

[ October 08, 2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]

JL:

In summary------- I am highly frustrated with the fact that my wife misses another man. It is plain and simple! It makes me mad to have to sit here and wait for all this love to dissipate after I agree to stay in the marriage and have fully exposed my heart to Myrta.

JL, Myrta talks when she wants to talk and that is not very often. She has always been reserved-- that is the way she is. She does not let me know what is in her heart. I suspect is something I don't want to hear.

If there is no love left----------- I can take it. At least let me know so I can walk away knowing I did my best. I cannot stay married to a woman who cannot love me anymore. I just cannot do it. I know I sound like an insecure second rate needy man, but that is what I need at this time.

I am very much in love with Myrta, however I have a hard time with the concept of a divided heart. I am not getting any younger and I want to enjoy life correctly and not like this.

Myrta,

Well, since you have always done things your way, and it has not worked so well, I don't think I am telling him this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I am telling him to back off and withdraw from discussion of OM, because it hurts him more and does not help him heal.

I read on your other posts that you are retaining things that OM gave you because you are "not ready", and I think it is a very poor way to do things. But, you are doing what you want. It is not helping.

I think you are missing the causal link between your H's words and actions and your choices even within the marriage. I think he has stated his position clearly to you, and really there is no need for him to continue to do so. You will either get it or you won't. If you won't, then you cast your relationship and marriage into a different light. The marriage may survive for a variety of reasons, but it will NOT be what you or he wants.

You don't seem to connect that your actions or inactions directly affect him. You have full control over them, so you have full control over his actions and reactions. You have not used that control as wisely as I think you could, and if you really really read his posts his complaint is always the same, you are not open, you withhold, and he strongly suspects that is because you do love OM, and while it is not practical right now, you would go back to OM. What evidence? You want to hang on to the things OM gave you.

My comment is that he cannot fight this, so back off. It won't make his pain go away, it won't make his insecurity go away, it won't make you more empathetic, or loving for that matter. But, it will lower his blood pressure abit.

Just thoughts, but here they are.

God Bless,

JL

JL----I dont always do things my way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That was uncalled for!!
My husband does not look at any things that the OM has given me, and gets triggers and gets hurt. He does not even know what these things are. They are just a few things, unimportant things that he gave me. I dont think getting rid of a gift or thing someone has given you, will take any pain away/ Do you get rid of all the belongings of a husband that dies, because it hurts to see them. No,lots of people keep things and by doing that learn to see those things, and not get any kind of emotion from them. You think that I am always looking at this things, and I get all weepy and miss the OM terribly??? NOOOOOOOOOOOO
Those are gifts that were given to me. Do you think I should remove my brain and give it to my husband so he can erase every memory of the OM? I think the things, the material things dont do as much damage as you are making me believe here.!!!
You want me to get rid of things, but in the ohter hand, you want my husband and I to go to the hotel that I used to go with the OM, and reclaim that as our territory>>??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I think that will be a very,very,very,low blow, big trigger to my husband. That will do more good than bad. So I dont know....
I DO LOVE MY HUSBAND, I DO WANT TO STAY MARRIED TO HIM, I DO WANT HIS TRUST BACK!!!
I am a reserved person, he has said that here, I dont talk a lot. So, now I have to be Miss Chatter Mouth? and that will make him happy???
I dO NOT HAVE A DIVIDED HEART!!!! i HAVE A HEART THAT ITS HURTING FOR MY HUSBAND, BECAUSE OF WHAT ID DID TO HIM. I AM ASHAMED, EMBARASSED, SOMETIMES I cannot even look at his eyes. Thats why I look to him, like I am thinking of the OM> I am not. I am thinking of what I did to US (my husband and I)
There is no confussion going on in my mind. I made my mind, the first day he found out. I dont want to be with the OM, I want My HUsband, no one else.
MYRTA

JL:

MYRTA said that she rather talk thru the forum than in person. She said that in here she could express her true feelings.

So here it goes:

I know Myrta is going to say I am too intense, but in reality I am simply acting like a man who loves his wife. I was gone for three days last week and came home Saturday. I was lucky to have sex with Myrta that night---- I consider that a blessing. However, I still sense that she is not giving herself and she has said so in other posts. This really frustrates me because separation of a few days in the past was always a great stimulant to have a warm welcome.

So last night----- after a few days I say to myself-- heck I will approach her again. Then I get a response that is SO SIMILAR to what she used to do during the affair that I actually get stressed out. Then she says that she is not into it and I feel like crap once again. It is Déjà vu for me and I don’t like it. So she tries to do me a favor and eventually got into it, but I am still frustrated because I long to have the old wife back. I don’t recall that I ever had to beg Myrta for this. Now everything is so different and I am highly frustrated.

So I ask-- is it the withdrawal? Depression? Then I get a bunch of abstract responses with no specifics. I want to help her and she simply does not want to talk. I strongly believe she is still in love with the guy and she does not have the courage to admit this. Yeah, she has said she loves me, but I know quite well is not said with the same exuberance as when I say it.

I now truly believe she loved this man very deeply and she is having a hard time coping with the separation. So for how long do I wait?

After D-day the whole premise of me not divorcing her was that she always loved me and that OM would be gone forever.

I am not willing to do what other BHs have done, I cannot seat and wait forever and accept her love for someone else. I need to know so I can make a decision. At my age I don’t want to work at this for 3-4 years to find out the marriage was dead from the very beginning and I was simply spinning my wheels. I have now become similar to a WW who craves romantic attention and I want to have it before I die. I know this sounds corny, but my self-esteem is not what it used to be.

[ October 08, 2004, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

Never mind, it's pointless.

Goodbye.

TMCM----

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

NEVER MIND YOURSELF,,,YOU ARE POINTLESS TOO!!!

MYRTA

STANLEY===WOW, How long since DD??? 5 months or 5 years???
I mean we are just starting this recovery and you are ready to go and look for someone else because you might be too old??
Thats love for me???
I donot love the OM. How many times do I need to tell you??? Just because I look pensive, does not mean I am inmersed in my overwhelming love for him. I am just thinking of the mess, of the hurt, of the choices,bad ones, that I did. I f you cannot understand that!!
You are welcome to leave and try new ventures!!!

Love

Myrta

Myrta:

I have asked you to throw away the presents a few times. In fact I asked you last night (not knowing this would be a hot topic today).

If I knew where the presents are I would gladly destroy them---- make no mistake about it. Unless you really want the presents----------- In that case then I have to assume they have incredible sentimental value to you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You are welcome to leave and try new ventures!!!
<hr /></blockquote>I don't like The Ventures that much----- I like The Beatles.

Peace!!!!!

No more fighting!

HMM=== I THOUGHT YOUR TASTE WAS MORE DIVERSIFIED!!!

YOU AND THE OTHERS HERE ARE THE ONES GIVING ALL THIS GUILT TRIPS!!!

I LOVE YOU!!!

TONIGHT YOU MIGHT GET LUCKY AGAIN, WHO KNOWS~!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MYRTA

JL:

I guess some humor on a Friday is allowed.

I sense Myrta will speak a storm this weekend!

Hopefully there will be no presents in the house by Monday!

JL & Stanley,

I understand the thought process behind wanting to get rid of the gifts that the OM bought for Myrta. My DH never asked me to, because my house is literally FILLED with things from the OW, and there are many things that she and her family bought for my H and my children too. I put the "sensitive" items away--locked away, and I'm not looking at them. They include framed photos of her/us/her family; little friendship tokens, etc.

I still have all of the jewelry she bought me. Some of it was while we were "just friends". I don't oogle at it all and pine away for her. It's been a part of my life and a part of me for so long that honestly I sometimes forget where it came from. No big deal!! If I were sitting here, staring at such items, pining away for her, it would be a different story, and I'd throw it away if my H wanted me to. Luckily, he doesn't, and luckily I'm not pining away for her just from looking at it!

With your train of thought, what do you do with all of the other stuff? What do you do when you hear a song that reminds you of the OM or OW?? You can't really control that! What do you do when you pass by a hotel that you've visited with her/him? You can't very well destroy it, and even if you "claim it as your own" by having sex there with your H or W, those memories (I assure you) will not entirely fade away. They're now a part of whom you are.

My point is that if the A was long (as mine was nearly THREE years!), then there are going to be many memories and many items which will remind you of it. The hurtful ones should be cast aside or destroyed, IF IT'S AGREEABLE BY BOTH OF YOU. The A really was so much more than items though, and I think it's silly to think that by eliminating them you'll more easily forget about the A. JMO.

Myrta, hope you have a good weekend. I'm glad to see that you're okay with all of this. In time you'll come to your own conclusions, and hopefully they will help both you and Stanley. Good luck!

CC

Myrta,

You have a wonderful of illustrating my points. You said <blockquote>quote:<hr />My husband does not look at any things that the OM has given me, and gets triggers and gets hurt. He does not even know what these things are.<hr /></blockquote>Myrta, he knows they are in his HOUSE. And he has clearly said it bothers him. Are you listening. One thing you don’t seem to understand you don’t get to dictate your H’s feelings to him. He expressed them and you have said he does not feel them. That is a huge LB Myrta. If he did this to you, you would blow up. In fact Myrta you do blow up, because you say you feel you love your H, but he won’t accept that. How does that feel to you? The difference is your words and your actions (holding on to items of OM) don’t coincide. That is a problem don’t you think?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> They are just a few things, unimportant things that he gave me.<hr /></blockquote>Well, now here is where you get in trouble. You say they are unimportant, your H expresses a desire to have all of OM’s gifts and things out of the house and you refuse. So does that indicate that they are unimportant? It would suggest that they are very important. Now you could be doing this just to aggravate your H, but that would suggest you enjoy seeing him in pain and angry. Is that the case? So here you are what are YOU going to do.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I dont think getting rid of a gift or thing someone has given you, will take any pain away/ Do you get rid of all the belongings of a husband that dies, because it hurts to see them. No,lots of people keep things and by doing that learn to see those things, and not get any kind of emotion from them.<hr /></blockquote>Myrta, they keep them BECAUSE THEY WANT to remember the dearly departed. Is that your goal to remember the OM, keep him in your heart and mind??

Now given that you are still in withdrawal, the answer may well be yes it is. Be honest about it. If OM is strongly on your mind, if you have strong feelings for him, be honest about it. It will hurt Stanley but NOT as much as lying to him or playing these games.

Don’t you see where his frustration is coming from? It comes from you saying one thing and doing something that does not support what you say. You have options Myrta and they include leaving and being with OM. Your H has fewer options right now, but I would like to point out that suggesting he take it elsewhere if he is not happy about this is NOT a good idea IF what you say is true, that you love him and want to be married to him.

Myrta, in these situations people especially BS’s become very very sensitive and aware, and they don’t have much sense of humor about many comments, and trust me good sex will NOT cover it up for long.

CC, said a few things along this line as well. I realize she is also not commited to her marriage and struggling to find her goals in life, but would you tolerate your H in your marriage if he said <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I understand the thought process behind wanting to get rid of the gifts that the OM bought for Myrta. My DH never asked me to, because my house is literally FILLED with things from the OW, and there are many things that she and her family bought for my H and my children too. I put the "sensitive" items away--locked away, and I'm not looking at them. They include framed photos of her/us/her family; little friendship tokens, etc. <hr /></blockquote>If they were NOT a trigger why put them away?? They are. CC’s H doesn’t seem to be bothered about them, I am not certain he would tell her if he was. Their situation is very different. But, notice they are essentially gone. But, one might ask what good will they serve other than to remind CC of the “good” times, and her H of how she betrayed him. If her “good” times are more important, and if she has no problem telling her children she is an adulteress I guess why not do it. It only hurts her H.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I still have all of the jewelry she bought me. Some of it was while we were "just friends". I don't oogle at it all and pine away for her. It's been a part of my life and a part of me for so long that honestly I sometimes forget where it came from. No big deal!! If I were sitting here, staring at such items, pining away for her, it would be a different story, and I'd throw it away if my H wanted me to. Luckily, he doesn't, and luckily I'm not pining away for her just from looking at it!<hr /></blockquote>Then why keep it??

<blockquote>quote:<hr />With your train of thought, what do you do with all of the other stuff? What do you do when you hear a song that reminds you of the OM or OW?? You can't really control that!<hr /></blockquote>No you cannot, but you should control what you can. It is sort of like a diet. One does have to eat, one cannot control that, but one does not have to bring home a dozen donuts and leave them on the table.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> What do you do when you pass by a hotel that you've visited with her/him? You can't very well destroy it, and even if you "claim it as your own" by having sex there with your H or W, those memories (I assure you) will not entirely fade away. They're now a part of whom you are. <hr /></blockquote>Well, since you are not long out of your affair, your assurances about the memories are probably not the complete word on the subject. Most people that post here do say the memories fade, but more importantly the feelings associated with those memories go away.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My point is that if the A was long (as mine was nearly THREE years!), then there are going to be many memories and many items which will remind you of it. The hurtful ones should be cast aside or destroyed, IF IT'S AGREEABLE BY BOTH OF YOU. The A really was so much more than items though, and I think it's silly to think that by eliminating them you'll more easily forget about the A. JMO.<hr /></blockquote>I think you are missing why people keep photographs of their departed relatives, it is to keep the memories alive. You say yourself that “…many items which remind you of it.” And my comment is that we agree and they should be thrown out. Further, if it is bother your spouse it should be thrown out, because these items should have NEVER been given to you in the first place.

Myrta, please think about this, but more importantly please think about what you truly feel, and why you are protecting these “gifts” so closely.

God Bless,

JL

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It's been a part of my life and a part of me for so long that honestly I sometimes forget where it came from. No big deal!! <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> What do you do when you pass by a hotel that you've visited with her/him? You can't very well destroy it, and even if you "claim it as your own" by having sex there with your H or W, those memories (I assure you) will not entirely fade away. They're now a part of whom you are.

<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> The A really was so much more than items though, and I think it's silly to think that by eliminating them you'll more easily forget about the A. <hr /></blockquote>Spoken like someone who is still in the fog and doesn't care to get out.

You're lying when you say you don't associate the items with the A. If you didn't, you'd freely given them away or throw them away.

And as someone who has "reclaimed" a hotel -- you won't know it until you try it. The memories DO fade and they are NOT a part of who you are. You are only saying that because you are refusing to let go.

Ps; I'm not a first-time poster, I just couldn't get my regular username to work!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Myrta, I know you don't know me but I have been reading all your posts. I am also a WW. You said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Those are gifts that were given to me. Do you think I should remove my brain and give it to my husband so he can erase every memory of the OM? I think the things, the material things dont do as much damage as you are making me believe here.!!!
You want me to get rid of things, but in the ohter hand, you want my husband and I to go to the hotel that I used to go with the OM, and reclaim that as our territory>>???
I think that will be a very,very,very,low blow, big trigger to my husband. That will do more good than bad. So I dont know....
I DO LOVE MY HUSBAND, I DO WANT TO STAY MARRIED TO HIM, I DO WANT HIS TRUST BACK!!!
<hr /></blockquote>Like I just said in an earlier post, things are just things. If the OM means nothing to you now then the things will mean nothing.

After my DD, I threw away or gave away nearly every reminder of my OM. I was very upset to have to do it and I did it reluctantly, but I did it because I did not want my H to question for even one more second my wanting to be honest with him. To me, the value of HIM and the value of our marriage was worth far more than any trinkets or pictures. It was hard, but I did it. And I've never looked back in regret. I don't miss one single thing that I threw away!! I have already replaced some of those things with things that either my H bought me or I bought for myself and I am so damn PROUD of those things -- compared to the double layers of emotions I held over them before.

I said I threw away NEARLY everything that day. There were some things that I just didn't think of or didn't notice until weeks and weeks later. And when I came across them they were instantly pitched. Every now and then a little something showed up here or there and I wouldn't get rid of it right away. And do you know what? It nagged at me. Do you know that Edgar Allen Poe story about that heart that beat under the floorboards? That's what it was like here.

My remembrances of my OM range from anger to pity to shame to happiness and every other emotion you can imagine. But one thing I don't care to do is look back fondly on my relationship with him. And the further away from him I get, the more I am convinced of that. I am a newer and better person and my marriage is a stronger and better marriage now. And there is absolutely nothing here -- not a feeling or emotion and not a trinket -- that my H will ever have to question me about in regards to the OM.

Myrta (and CC too), you cannot imagine the happiness that you will feel when you get to this point. I am a newlywed again. It is beyond the emotion of the A ------- it is better than anything I could have dreamed up with the OM. Because I know this is real and good and true. And I don't have to hide it from anybody.

I want you to feel this too. Myrta -- they're trinkets. You won't miss them. It's time to let go.

I want to that JL and other posters who have supported my position regarding gifts by the OM.

1st of all if CC agrees with Myrta I have to conclude that my beloved wife may still be foggy. I say this because when I read CC the fog is so dense that I can hardly see the words on the screen. No offense CC, but among our elite group of WWs you are tops regarding the number of molecules of H2O that surround you----------- you are wet on this one. And my dear Myrta is swimming in it.

I have been bothered by the gifts for quite sometime, but as Myrta said, I don’t know what they are. I believe there is some jewelry, clothing, a purse, and a CD which I saw on Myrta’s car and ask about it (not Myrta‘s taste in music). She said OM gave it to me (Aghh!)-------------------- I got rid of it afterwards. I took a hammer and shattered the whole thing to pieces before I dumped it----------- it felt good. Myrta has not missed the CD because she does not like that kind of music.

I have often walked into Myrta’s closet to try to guess what the clothing items are. I have examined all her jewelry (98% given to her by me over the years). I found a couple of strange pieces and showed them to Myrta, but she said they were presents from her mother. I asked Myrta if OM gave her underwear---- she said no, but who knows. Nevertheless I checked the drawer where she keeps her underwear to see if there was anything suspicious. I also looked for love notes, but didn’t see anything.

Gee, I guess those things don’t really bother me!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am a newer and better person and my marriage is a stronger and better marriage now. And there is absolutely nothing here -- not a feeling or emotion and not a trinket -- that my H will ever have to question me about in regards to the OM.

Myrta (and CC too), you cannot imagine the happiness that you will feel when you get to this point. I am a newlywed again. It is beyond the emotion of the A ------- it is better than anything I could have dreamed up with the OM. Because I know this is real and good and true. And I don't have to hide it from anybody.<hr /></blockquote>That is what I want!

How did you achieve that?

I am already madly in love, but Myrta is not here yet. Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe anyone can make someone else fall in love, but at some point Myrta must have loved me. How is that feeling recaptured? I definitely feel like a newlywed, but Myrta is ?????????????? Is it really possible to achieve that nirvana?

Stanley,

I am no expert on this matter. I could only tell you what I did.

Why did I have an affair? Because I believed my husband didn't love me. What happened when I revealed the affair to him? He stayed with me. How much more could someone love me??? I betrayed HIM and he stayed with ME?

I did everything by the book after that point. He never had to and never will have to wonder where I am, who I am, or what I am thinking. I truely adore that man for forgiving me. He is a man among men. He is honest and loving and forgiving. My OM? The same cannot be said for him. The choice was obvious to me.

My fog was pretty short-lived after this occured to me.

I can't speak for my H about whether or not he still wonders if I am in contact with the OM. (I am not.) But if he ever asks if I am or if I think about him, pine for him, doI have gifts or reminders of him, or anything else . . . I can look at him straight in the eye and say I am deeply in love with my husband and shall never again betray him. I don't need what that OM offered me because I have everything here already. I give it to myself first (honesty) and then I give it to my husband.

My reward for this? A deeply renewed commitment. A man who doesn't have to ask because he already knows.

Stanley,

I will repeat this. You need to back off. You cannot MAKE Myrta love you and it is NOT your job to remove things OM gave her. It is her job. She can lie to you and tell you they are gone and you won't know. I think you need to realize that so much is out of your control. I realize in your profession having things out of control is tantamount to a major disaster and yes death, but you really cannot control if, when, how, or whether she loves you and respects you.

It really is Myrta's call. Your call is how you heal from this, how you decide to recover and learn from this experience and ultimately if you are happy in this marriage. You need to realize decisions don't need to be made right now, but if things are not to your satisfaction as time moves on, then you also have choices. It is Myrta's call with regard to the marriage right now, as you want it to last and rebuild. She has been given a lot of control, but with it comes more responsibility than she seems to realize. She may like the control, but she had better act responsibly or she will lose a lot more than she seems to realize.

Sit back and see what she does. The ball is in her court. You have expressed a deep desire to remain married to her. You have expressed deep love for her. You have endured a lot for her. It is time her actions started to match her words. Time will tell,but give it time and have patience Stanley. I know it hurts to do this, but for better or worse, she now has to address this marriage and decide if it is what she wants and decide how to fix what she feels she needs.

You have your own work to do, so do it. She has a lot of work to do, and she needs to do it. I think she will eventually realize that the marriage has changed, you have changed your perspective of things, and she must change her perspective on things. I am guessing but for the first time, she is being held responsible for working on this marriage. I suspect you were the one that gave a lot, and when you got busy she decided she still needed what you used to give adn she went elsewhere. The reality she needed to give a lot as well, and that included understanding why you were doing what you did and what you were doing.

Just some guesses. But, step back and do your job in this OK?

God Bless,

JL

Stanley,

You said, "1st of all if CC agrees with Myrta I have to conclude that my beloved wife may still be foggy. I say this because when I read CC the fog is so dense that I can hardly see the words on the screen. No offense CC, but among our elite group of WWs you are tops regarding the number of molecules of H2O that surround you----------- you are wet on this one. And my dear Myrta is swimming in it." Wow! That was pretty harsh!!

I thought that I had made some strides, but after reading your posts and JL's, I don't even want to come back here again!

I said that *I* put many things from the OW away. If anything bothered my H, I'd put it away, or throw it away if it hurt him that deeply. As far as the jewelry and such, I DO NOT HOLD ONTO IT AND WEAR IT AS A REMINDER! That's bullsh**! I happen to like and enjoy jewelry, and I have many, many pieces of jewelry from many friends and family members; the OW included. I don't look at what I'm wearing and associate a loving memory to it. Sorry! I guess I didn't make it clear that I have a TON of jewelry (and "things"), so I'm usually at a loss for who gave it to me!

As I've said before, it it bothered my H, I wouldn't hold onto it. I've ALSO SAID that *HE* has things from the OW which he's kept, simply because he liked them! My children too. It doesn't seem to be a big deal here, and I'm not saying that because I'm in some frickin "fog"!!! I'm seeing things more clearly lately and I DON'T appreciate your harsh tone.

I hope that Myrta is okay and that you two could come to some understanding. I hate to hear her get so beaten up here.

Take care, all. I won't be posting for a while!

CC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Stanley, I just want to reiterate what FaithfullyHoping said. That is exactly what happened with H and I.

FaithfullyHoping, do I know you? I don't want to embarrass mysef by talking to you like I don't know you and finding you're someone I've been talking to for ages. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

CC, I know it's unpleasant facing this stuff but it has to be faced.

WS's do not have the luxury of taking their time to decide if they want to do things or not. Grieving has to be done in private, the BS has to be put first at all times. Although, having said that, my H sometimes held me as I wept, saying "I miss him, I miss him." Can you imagine anyone loving you that much? I am still in awe of it.

Actions are the only things that count. I've said on another thread to you all H and I burned all my old photos of OM (from when we were at school) as an act of good faith and to show where my commitment was.

Jen

[ October 08, 2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]

JUST LEARNING====
Well, I want to thank you for all the interest you had shown for myself and my husband. I believe that,as of today you have one less person to advise.
I will try to do as best as possible with my husband and myself.
Before leaving thought, I have to tell you very clearly and with no doubt in my mind, that I do not love the OM. I love my husband, but I think sometimes love is not enough. Sometimes love hurts!
Like I said before, if I am giving him too much to bear, he can leave. That does not mean that I will be going back with the OM. But I dont want to be put down anymore, because "I dont do or say what all of you want me to . Like I said before , and you said too, I have to do what I think is my best way to deal with the situation.I dont like to be push to go against my will.
If you and everyone here dont agree with me, so be it.
Keep up your good work here, but I am out of this game!
You still have my husband to guide and advise.
And by the way too, all the years that we had been married, I had been the one that was trying to have the best marriage in the world. I put much more effort than my husband. I was the one working the hardest to make it work, not him. He cannot deny this!
Have a good one!

Myrta

[ October 10, 2004, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]

Faithfully Hoping said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I did everything by the book after that point. He never had to and never will have to wonder where I am, who I am, or what I am thinking. I truely adore that man for forgiving me. He is a man among men. He is honest and loving and forgiving. My OM? The same cannot be said for him. The choice was obvious to me.<hr /></blockquote>If I had been a WH I would have done just like you. The last thing in my mind would be to hold on to some cheap gifts. Thanks for the encouraging words.

JL said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Stanley,

I will repeat this. You need to back off. You cannot MAKE Myrta love you and it is NOT your job to remove things OM gave her. It is her job. She can lie to you and tell you they are gone and you won't know. I think you need to realize that so much is out of your control. <hr /></blockquote>As of today I am backing off. I do get stressed out by trying so hard to get things to where they should be. During the 1st weeks it was only me doing 100% of the work by reading and learning about affairs. I guess Myrta’s arrival here was a major step for her, but I feel I have been running in circles.

I told her I had destroyed the CD OM gave her and she became somewhat indignant even thou she does not listen to it or knew it was missing. I guess she feels OM spent money on the gift and therefore she feels it would be inappropriate to get rid of the CD.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />but you really cannot control if, when, how, or whether she loves you and respects you.<hr /></blockquote>This is so true and it is something my dad told me when I was becoming interested in girls. He was very clear----------- “there is no point in loving a girl that does not love you back---------- find one that likes you---------- it is much easier.”

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It really is Myrta's call.<hr /></blockquote>You are right---- I cannot force the issue. The door is open if she wants to go back to the OM. I feel bad about it, but at some point one starts to get tired of fighting to gain the attention of a wife who is now thinking about someone else. How do I know that? She is holding on to the gifts!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You need to realize decisions don't need to be made right now, but if things are not to your satisfaction as time moves on, then you also have choices. It is Myrta's call with regard to the marriage right now, as you want it to last and rebuild. <hr /></blockquote>Right now I still want to stay married and I hope things will be the same again. However, I have become more inpatient as I slowly become less and less depressed. Some days I am full of hope and on other days is all gloom. Her tenacious defense regarding the gifts by OM affect me negatively-------- I will not deny this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She has been given a lot of control, but with it comes more responsibility than she seems to realize. She may like the control, but she had better act responsibly or she will lose a lot more than she seems to realize.

Sit back and see what she does. The ball is in her court. You have expressed a deep desire to remain married to her. You have expressed deep love for her. You have endured a lot for her. It is time her actions started to match her words. Time will tell, but give it time and have patience Stanley. I know it hurts to do this, but for better or worse, she now has to address this marriage and decide if it is what she wants and decide how to fix what she feels she needs.<hr /></blockquote>From day one---- before I had read anything about affairs I recognized that I could only heal with the help of Myrta. However, time and time again she would tell me "this is too much responsibility for me". I know she still feels overwhelmed with the task of trying to help me or fix the marriage.

[ October 08, 2004, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

CC:

Sorry for the 2x4----- my 1st one since I have been here!

You redeemed yourself nicely on your last post-------- good for you!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If anything bothered my H, I'd put it away, or throw it away if it hurt him that deeply. <hr /></blockquote>Would you let Myrta know.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />As I've said before, it it bothered my H, I wouldn't hold onto it. <hr /></blockquote>Keep going CC!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I hope that Myrta is okay and that you two could come to some understanding. I hate to hear her get so beaten up here.<hr /></blockquote>Myrta has taken some heavy duty 2X4s before-- she will be back!

KiwiJ said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Actions are the only things that count. I've said on another thread to you all H and I burned all my old photos of OM (from when we were at school) as an act of good faith and to show where my commitment was.<hr /></blockquote>I would say that to get rid of old photos from high school is way much more difficult than to throw away cheap jewelry. In fact Myrta could give it to her sisters as a gift.

[ October 09, 2004, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

Myrta:

If you really believe the gifts are important and you want to keep them simply tell me why you want them.

If there is sentimental value I will understand and not mention this again. However, when you say the gifts have no intrinsic worth and you deny an emotional connection to them I get very confused.

There must be a reason why you want to keep all this stuff.

Why did you get upset when I got rid of a CD that you never listen to?

These are the things that make me wonder on a daily basis----- sorry if I am wrong on this one.

I just realized that when the issue of the gifts was raised you said I don't think of the OM when I see them or holds them

I think the key word here was I.

That is fine, but in turn I (the BH ) is highly bothered by those gifts. You may say, well that is your problem. If you don't believe me that is fine. Hmm I am back in square one as you refuse to do something that by your own admission would cost you nothing (if you truly believe there is no emotional connection).

[ October 08, 2004, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

Stanely,

Of course I do not speak for Myrta, but I'd like to take a stab at one of your last questions in this thread. You asked her:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There must be a reason why you want to keep all this stuff.

Why did you get upset when I got rid of a CD that you never listen to?
<hr /></blockquote>In my situation, one of the reasons it was so very difficult for me to go through with getting rid of the mementos of the A was that I felt like I was being forced to do something that was not, at first, my choice. I was experiencing a loss of control after having been so completely in control during the time I was hiding my A. When I confessed my A I agreed to let someone else (my H and our MC) take over for a while. I didn't ENJOY it, but I knew it was for the best. I obviously had not been thinking clearly for myself and I put my trust into the hands of the MC (and my H) because I felt they were less foggy than I.

But trust is a two-way street, Stanley. Myrta is begging you to respect her feelings right now and you are beggin her to respect yours. That is why JL is suggesting that you back off a bit. I know it is enormously difficult right now, but you have to trust her that she will do the right thing. If you tell her, "Myrta, I love you and I want this to work out and I will be here for you in every capacity," then you will likely get the more favorable results that you desire. If you tell her, "Myrta, you HAVE to do this because I am unhappy and it's what is right," then what will happen is you will have a wife who will live up to your low expectations of her.

I hope this makes sense. It probably sounds ridiculous to you that you need to step back and let her choose to come to you. But if you think about it, she's already there.

CC,

I would have to venture a guess that the reason that your H is okay with your keeping the jewelry from your lover is that perhaps he is unaware that it came from her?

But regardless of whether he knows and regardless of whether he even cares, the mere act of your saving the items is horribly symbolic. I know JL has told you to reverse the scenario and imagine that your husband kept gifts from HIS lover in your bedroom, livingroom, etc.

But I think you should forget the idea of reversing the scenario. Instead try thinking strictly about what it says about YOU: evidence here, there, and everywhere in your home that you are a liar and a cheater. Is this your own personal scarlet letter?

Perhaps you need to think about being a lot gentler with yourself. Get rid of the baubles and trinkets and replace them with something that you buy for yourself. And wear them with pride -------- pride in yourself and in honesty and in truthfulness and in being a role model to your children.

You will never have to make a case with anybody over a CD you bought for yourself, or some new jewelry, or whatever else you need to replace. Nobody will ever think twice about its existence. Nobody. Especially not you.

Please think about it. If you have to work so hard to defend having it or keeping it, how "right" is it?

Stanley,

Thanks for your last post. I hope that you re-read my other posts tonight and realize that I'm NOT holding onto everything from the OW.

Faithfully,

I already stated that I'd get rid of things from the OW if it bothered by H. He's already told me that the pictures of her/us bothered him and they're gone.

As for the jewelry, some of it is diamonds, and it's mostly not "cheap" anything, or I'd have put it away (or thrown it away) by now. As I've said, they're NOT reminders of her, and I doubt highly that my H thinks they are either. Again, if he did, I'd get rid of them or put them away. Clear??

I have LOTS of jewelry and gifts from friends/family and no one can keep track of it all; not even me. So, it's no big deal to us. Besides that my H has stuff from my OW and he's not parting with it either! He said that it's okay to keep it b/c he likes it! If it reminded him too much of her or of his pain, he'd get rid of it--that much we've spoken about.

Hope I'm clear here. I'm not keeping my house innundated with her stuff, but she's been a BIG part of our lives for 3 years, and she's bought us all tons of stuff; stuff that my family hasn't wanted to part with, and if I have no problem with that, and if they don't either, then I feel that it's okay. It's NOT a constant reminder of her.

Thanks for your input. I'm going away to the Bahamas on holiday any minute, so maybe I'll check back here when I come home in a week.

Myrta, I wish you the best. Sorry you've had a rough time!

CC

CC,

Enjoy your holiday. I hope you buy some nice souvenirs while you are in the Bahamas.

Dear Myrta,

please understand that the people here are trying to help you, not put you down. I guess you are struggling with guilt right now and that is making you very sensitive to anyone telling you that you might be doing something wrong (still).

Yet you are simply "swimming" a river that many of us have swum before. We know about some of it's dangers. Even though every "river" is different, there are still many similarities. We are standing on the banks of your river (because you asked to come and see you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> when you came to MB) and trying to give you help - be careful of this, don't go there, that's a dead end - but in the end you decide whether you're simply going to do it your way, without the help of people who have been there, done that and got the T-shirt.

It's your choice my dear. We are only trying to give you some pointers. BS's can tell you what is going on in their heads. We can only tell you that. You must make your choices.

You cannot expect to swim up a dead end and then magically find your way through. You'll have to swim back and try another route, or stay in the dead end being angry at it.

We all want you to get through this, to find yourself again, to be in a good place with yourself again. We are trying to help you the best way we know how - hoping you'll not make the same mistakes we did, perhaps.

If people here would think you're a horrible person, you can bet you would get a) no postings at all b) be blocked from this forum b) get very angry postings. None of that is happening. But like Stanley doesn't know how to handle this because he (luckily) has no experience at being a BS, you don't have any experience at being a WS in the eyes of other, either. I guess you feel "hey, this isn't me, I'm much more than this." But when you go to the doctor about an ulcer you might expect a lot of talking about your stomach eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Please keep posting here my dear. Your feelings about it will also change as you progress in your river. You might even realise those "judgemental people" on the banks of your river are actually trying to keep you from hurting yourself.

Faithfullyhoping said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In my situation, one of the reasons it was so very difficult for me to go through with getting rid of the mementos of the A was that I felt like I was being forced to do something that was not, at first, my choice. I was experiencing a loss of control after having been so completely in control during the time I was hiding my A. <hr /></blockquote>This morning we talked about the gifts again and I had the feeling that Myrta does not like anyone telling her what to do. He demeanor suggests that perhaps she has no emotions associated with the gifts. In any event-----all of a sudden she got up and gathered the gifts. She then looked at me and said “I have no sentimental attachment to these things at all, but here they are”. She then threw then in our bed for me to see.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But trust is a two-way street, Stanley. Myrta is begging you to respect her feelings right now and you are beggin her to respect yours. That is why JL is suggesting that you back off a bit. <hr /></blockquote>That is a very insightful comment. I think Myrta is tired of having to do things because someone else says you should do this. I know her well and she does something whenever she feels like it. She despises the idea of being manipulated and I cannot blame her for that.

Brownhair said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I guess you are struggling with guilt right now and that is making you very sensitive to anyone telling you that you might be doing something wrong (still).<hr /></blockquote>Exactly! I think Myrta is tired and sensitive. I feel way better about this than yesterday. For a while I thought she really wanted the items because of their sentimental value. I think I was wrong about that, but something inside of me feels quite good about dumping those gifts.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If people here would think you're a horrible person, you can bet you would get a) no postings at all b) be blocked from this forum b) get very angry postings. None of that is happening. But like Stanley doesn't know how to handle this because he (luckily) has no experience at being a BS, you don't have any experience at being a WS in the eyes of other, either. I guess you feel "hey, this isn't me, I'm much more than this." <hr /></blockquote>I think Myrta struggles with the idea of “this isn’t me”. She also admitted a great deal of remorse this morning which causes her to be depressed.

Thanks to all for the input, it is helping tremendously

JL, et al:

Here is an update-------- Myrta showed me the presents from OM. I dumped then right away------it seems she really had no emotional attachment. She was mostly upset because she hates to receive a direct mandate to do something. As Myrta has said the presents were fairly inexpensive.

We talked about her post D-day conversations with OM. Myrta still claims these conversations were quite helpful because she saw the OM in a different light and that made it easier to go into permanent NC.

She stated she is not ready yet to act or say the things I want to hear. So I will go back to a holding pattern and be more neutral. I think I have been rather intense in expressing romantic feelings and this is clearly not working as I thought it would. There are walls between us and unfortunately I cannot bring them down. This is Myrta’s job and she is not ready.

I am trying to convince Myrta to post again.

Dear Myrta

I wanted to thank you for you input and comment because they made me think quite a bit.

You were right I think that I was getting resentful about Aussie asking asking asking and did not realise it's cause right away. I want to answer him but it seems so hard to do so.

It is hard to be daily bombarded by all I have done to him, yes I deserve it I suppose but it doesn't mean its easy to accept & handle it all.

Yes it does hurt very much to see the pain and hurt and also the disgust in Aussies eyes when he looks at me. It's not constant but it does appear every now & then so I know EXACTLY what I have done, I can't ever escape unless I run away or he leaves.
I know many say I don't actually get what I have done, perhaps I don't in full, but it seems I do. I am so disgusted with myself its hard to look at myself in a mirror. I feel so small, worthless.

I don't want either, him to leave or me to go, like you I want to get my M back, I just doubt I can. I think I will end up settling for something less than it was and that will haunt me until I die.

Anyway I just want to say Myrta thank you and you are welcome to post to me anytime.

Myrta,

Hooray for dumping the OM’s trinkets. Kudos to both of you. I think you will make it.

Myrta, you have a way with words. I enjoy reading your posts. You sound so much like my W it’s scary.

I have a question for you. Perhaps you can shed some light on something similar going on here for me. My W has a picture OMM gave her years ago. He painted it. Very non-descript. But, she keeps it stored at work in a drawer. It is driving me crazy. Why would she keep it when she says it means nothing to her? She says she has no feelings for OMM anymore but still will not get rid of it. Will get around to it…on and on…

It hurts that she may desire this memento more than healing my feeling. Do you think there is something to her keeping this thing? Were there truly, if you are honest with yourself, feelings attached to those trinkets of yours after all?

Aside from this we are doing OK in our recovery. And I am not pushing this painting issue. I have not mentioned it in weeks.

Aside for CC: I do not know what state you live in, but if OW’s H ever wanted to sue you for the value of all that jewelry he could. It is illegal in all community property states for one spouse to distribute any assets, in any way, without the agreement of the other. There was a case here in Washington just recently where the W of a WH sued the OW for many thousands of dollars and won. OW has to pay it all back with interest!

Thanx,
T

THOS--Thank you so much for your encouragement. I really appreciate nice words, not only negative remarks.
I honestly tellyou, with my heart in my hands, that I did not have any emotional attachments to those gifts. First of, I do not like my husband or ANYONE to tell me, what to do or not to do. He knows that. Second, some of those gifts, I just liked, thats all. I did not get misty eye, or emotional knowing that I had them. I am sure your wife or even yourself has gifts from people that you dont like or you dont want to think about them, but yet you kept the gifts. Gifts, are gifts, thatss all. To me, they did not mean anything. Now, if I had love letters, or e-mails or postcards written by him, thats another story. Thats something very personal. I am sure your wife does not want to get rid of that painting, because I am sure its unqiue,, since its a painting. Maybe she can paint over the OM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Dont worry about it, . If you are doing well in your M with other things, a simple frame painting should not take your sleep away.

Myrta

Myrta,

:: I do not like my husband or ANYONE to tell me, what to do or not to do.

Like I wrote, you sound like my W. She has clawed her way near the top of a large old-boy network dominated corporation. She does not take no for an answer. So how about the, “Thou Shall Nots” in the Ten Commandments?

:: I am sure your wife or even yourself has gifts from people that you don't like or you don't want to think about them, but yet you kept the gifts.

Actually, no, we don't. Can't think of any - unless as you write, I don't think about them so much I just can't remember.

:: Now, if I had love letters, or e-mails or postcards written by him, that's another story. That's something very personal. I am sure your wife does not want to get rid of that painting, because I am sure it’s unique...

That's just the problem! This painting is a very personalized gift to her from her lover, her slimy lover, at the height of their A. It is a big painful thorn in my emotional side. She knows this yet she prefers to leave the thorn in me. Whatever her reason, it seems weak compared to what her keeping it does to our recovery and me.

:: Maybe she can paint over the OM...

Heehee. Good one. He isn't in the painting except for his signature. I'd like to have the kindergartners at DS's school Crayola all over it.

:: If you are doing well in your M with other things, a simple frame painting should not take your sleep away.

But it does. It's not a simple painting. It's a painting by OMM! It is much greater than the sum of its parts. Combined with all our other A problems it amy be just one more straw on the camel. But which straw will break the camel's back?

I was hoping you might have some words of wisdom for me that I could use to help convince W this is a problem. What finally convinced you?

T

THOS-- Oh, I am sorry about that. That does sound like something that she should throw away. Everything personal like that , that I had, I threw away the day after DD. I had so many e-mails ,and letters, annd I also had sooooo many voice mails with messages from him. I got rid of all that, and myhusband never knew about those things. He will know now, when he reads this.
What made me get rid of the gifts???
Hmm, I was sooooooo tired of hearing about them. I was getting sick to my stomach. And then of course JL's and CoffeeMans, posts, got to me too. I hate it when people think the wrong thing about my actions.
Tell you wife to post here and maybe JL and CoffeeMan can straighten her!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Good LUck!!

Myrta

Hah, I’d love to tell S_ to post here. But you and I just had that conversation about being told what to do, didn’t we.

S_ doesn’t like this “MB Place” all that much. She reads some posts I print out for us to talk about, but even that is becoming old for her lately.

You and Stanley have developed a pretty good ongoing dialog here. S_ and I dialogue a lot using Retrouvaille techniques. So it’s not like we don’t communicate. Funny thing is, we used to communicate well about everything. Or so I thought.

It’s as if this A snuck up on her 10 years ago and then she developed this double secret life. She stopped communicating about most everything after that.

Thanx for the good wishes. Same to you and Stanley.

T

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Originally posted by Myrta:
First of, I do not like my husband or ANYONE to tell me, what to do or not to do. <hr /></blockquote>Marriage happiness / satisfaction is greatly increased when both spouses use a fair system of negotiating solutions to disagreements.

The goal is to find win / win solutions.

Dr. Harley has such a system, POJA.
Negotiation via POJA

Harley also believes that a culture that encourages beliefs of self-centeredness as a way to happiness... is destroying marriage.

How self-centeredness destroys marriage

Please read and consider both concepts as a way to make your home and marriage equally comfortable for both spouses.

Pep

Pepperland:

I will pinch hit for Myrta on this one. She is not self centered---- she tends to be the opposite and goes the extra-mile for others, however, she is not a classic codependent either. However, everyone that knows her sees an unselfish person who is not into material stuff. She has often return many gifts from me because she finds then to be expensive.

However, she can be stubborn and sometimes her reactions are difficult to read. Such as getting rid of all notes and letters of the affair in D-day because they had a high sentimental content and holding on to a T-shirt and flannel pants she used around the house. It would seem she had romantic attachment to the latter, but I don't think she did.

I agree with you 100% that selfishness is the root of most evil in the world as well as the break-up of marriages.

After my H ended his A he let me destroy a Seiko watch that the OW gave him. It was kind of ceremonial thing. He was willing to get rid of anything that she had given him, without a second thought.

I believe it is selfish and wrong to hold onto any gift or reminder of your A after you have agreed to recover your marriage. This is especially true if your having these things is a trigger for your H.

Sometimes it is difficult to read some of a WS's rationalizations for continued self behavior.

Myrta - Are you still around? I haven't posted lately because you and your husband seem to be doing well.

Believer!!! Oh yes, I am still around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Lots of controversies surrounding me here. It seems like I am the "persona non-grata" here now.
Yes, we are doing better, I think. I am trying to talk as much as possible to my husband , answering his questions and doubts.
I hope you are doing well . Anything new with your husband and the OW?
Take care!
Myrta

No Myrta - you are a shining example of how a FWW should behave. Nothing new with me and WH. Same old, same old. So hang in there dear.

Believer---No,no, please, I cannot be a shining example, maybe a bad example....But,no, please, I dont behave like anyone here, I am not worth "anyone's time, according to some.

Take care of yourself!
Myrta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Myrta - Ignore anyone who says anything different. You ARE a shining example. We at MB love you very much, and have lots of hope for your marriage and family.

Believer--------- <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> You make me want to cry, because you are always, always being so positive with me. Since the beginning of me posting here, you gave me such good ,positive feedback. I really admire you for having such positive outlook after everything you being thru.
Wow, you deserve the best! I am sure you will have it soon!!

Thanks
Myrta

Myrta,

I don’t want you to leave.

T

THOS- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Really??
No, I dont want to leave MB, because I know it is good to talk about this with others that are going thru the same problems. Plus, I know, my husband appreciates that I am here. Here, I can express more, than when I am talking to him. I am much more "talkative"here than in person. In person, I get really intimidated with the magnitude of my pass actions.
How is your wife and the painting she wants to keep? Anything new? Is she thinking about getting rid of it?
I hope so! If not now, later on, eventually she will probably do it.
Take care
Myra

Myrta

How are you today?

I’m just taking a break from housework.11.30pm here in Perth right now ……lol
The house has been over run with young nieces and nephews who love to come and see Uncle Aussie and of course my daughter goes all ga ga over the 5 year olds . Don’t even think of kids yet my girl… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Mmm that new man of hers just looks too nice & too serious ………. I keep telling her 18 is too young to get married these days but you know kids!! Did you or I listen???

Anyway been ironing Aussies uniforms in just the ‘right’ way as he goes back to the regiment on Monday. That means no more lunches together, no going to & from work together…..,,I’ll miss that.

How has all been at your place? Has Stanley been feeling well? I wondered how he was going after he & Aussie were talking .
That was the time Aussie was just asking questions day in day out. I know how they want it all and deserve to know, but I don’t think they understand how hard it is to talk easily about the affairs and all the details. It makes me feel so unclean and I have to force myself to keep going..

Have you been going ok through this last week? You do sound so strong and determined not to accept anything until you are happy with it all. I think that is great! At least when you do that YOU feel right about it!!
The thing I notice here is some, especially the men, seem to not give you any time to actually assimilate the information and suggestions that are made. I at least need to sit & think on what is said and evaluate what it means to me.

So a few days ago I screwed up my courage & I did give Aussie ALL the details as I could remember them & he’s been very quite and avoiding me since. He got a phone call today and went all secretive shutting himself into the study, any other time before my affair he would have just walked around the house while he talked. Doesn’t really trust me in anything at all right now.

Guess it’s a bit of waiting game right now to see how it all going to go. Up or down

AW--I hope you are doing well, I know it was not easy for you to tell your husband the details and know to feel rejected all over again. It will get better, he has to assimilate the information. He has to accept the information, he has already forgiven you, and he loves you very much. You will make it, because there is a lot of love in your marriage, even after...
Your daughter wants to get married? REally? thats way to young for now a days. I got married at 18 but those were different times, the 70s!. She needs to live first on her own. She will see that!
AW---I feel really bad, with things here lately, I mean in MB, not my home <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ....I dont know how it escalated so much, but so many people (men especially,yes)hate me. Harsh words had been exchanged between JL and myself ,between TMCM and myself too. I dont know,,,how it got like this anymore. But I dont like it. I am sorry because I offended some, was really not my intention, but I was pushed to do so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
My husband and your Aussie dont exchange posts anymore I've noticed. I guess they got what they got what they wanted from each other already. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
My husband has his ups and downs. This morning he seemed kind of angry with me, when he left for work, even though he told me everything was fine. I read his posts to SadWW and I see his frustrations. Will we ever put this behind us??? I hope so!!
Take care!
Where exactly do you live??

Myrta

Hi Myrta

First I dont believe ANYONE could hate you!! They might disgaree with you but I can't see anyone hating you. I don't think you have a mean bone in your body. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Does my D want to get M?? I suspect she is thinking about it a bit too much with this latest boyfriend. They go looking at rings and things and I get nervous....lol
However Aussie says he can't marry her until he graduates from Duntroon Miltary college as an officer ... I don't know if thats worse or not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I hope she gets to live with some girlfriends first & has some innocent fun for goodness sake.

Well Uni starts in February for her so maybe it will distract her for a while... I hope.

Aussie, well I hope he loves me still, even a bit. I have had no ILU's since this all began which is understandable but very hard to accept.
I don't think Aussie has been doing much serious posting for a little while, he seems to be on a semi permanent 'gone fishing' right now, on everything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Have to admit I am a bit uneasy with his attitude as it seems to be a sudden turn a round from what was going on before......... suppose it will pass.

Yes I know what you mean about the big mood swings our H seem to have. I see the suppressed anger there all the time so I see he's trying not to LB me at all, but its hard to know how he will react.
I'm sure STanley is in the same boat, not wanting to say anything nasty when he feels like yelling & screaming. My MC says this is normal for the BS to go through this see saw of emotions but it will ease off. Boy do I hope she is right.

Aussie & I live in Perth In Western Australia in Australia. Its our spring time here and we are looking t a pretty hot summer I think this year.
But it's lovely here right now.

Make sure you look after yourself Myrta as well through all of this. I found I was getting ill not looking after myself and that was not going to help anyone.

I don't think this will ever be over as such. It will most likely just fade and melt into the background of our lives. Hopfully we will be stronger & wiser, and with our husbands.

Ladies,

I know you are wondering why your BHs want so much information. I think the problems in their minds are: "How did this happen? What did OM do that was so great? (And most important) How can I prevent this from ever happening again?" Unless he knows the facts, he cannot come to grips with how to protect himself from more hurt from you.

Yes, Myrta, really. For the very reasons you wrote down yourself. Plus, I like to read your posts. I see you opening up, becoming much more than you were during your A. You might just be on your way to becoming the person God wants you to be.

It is a joy to contemplate.

T

Thos--YOu are right about opening up. Since coming to MB, I can see that I am so similar to other women going thru the same. And my husband can see that his reactions and ups and downs are very normal for what HE is going thru. We are much better as a couple since getting so much feedback from everyone.
I do hope you will convince your wife to come and post. Just tell her to do it once and if she does not like it, then she has the choice to leave. She might like it and get hooked! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Take care.

Myrta