My husband has received an invite to his work christmas party. Only employees invited, no partners.

He works as a pilot so with a lot of young single women. I have never met any of them (he doesn't do overnights and doesn't have time to socialise at work thankfully because I'm pretty jealous) and I am seriously unhappy about him going to a party with them.

Am I supposed to let him go, when not going could possibly be harmful to his career and going would definitely be harmful to our marriage (because of my jealousy)?

Rosy,
Is this party during "work" hours or in the evening?

If it's during work hours, I don't see any reason for you to have a problem with the party. But if it's 'After-hours' I'd have a problem too with spouses/partners not being invited.

I personnally do not understand why businesses would have a party and not allow employee's to bring their partners. My H has also worked for companies that did this and I expect him not to go to a party that I'm not invited to also. It's a boundry in our marriage.
Jo

If he goes, what protections can you put in place so you feel safe about it? Can he call you every 30 minutes? Take pictures on his phone and send them to you so you can see what he's doing? Ask a coworker friend to help you keep an eye on him? Set a time for him to leave (like before the alcohol hits everyone's brains)?

Its in the evening, 9pm till 2am "cocktail party".

I was just looking through facebook photos of the people he works with (I've never met any of them so there are no friends I could call on to update me or anything). Some of the girls have really "sexy" photos as their profile pic, I wanna puke. I can't compete with a load of 22year olds all dressed up for a night out.
I'm only 29 and I look ok, but I'm a Mummy with a baby still breastfeeding who struggles to get time to shave my legs let alone go out for an evening all dressed up.

I don't think hubby is going, I couldn't stand it and I think he's ok with that. Are there really wives out there who are ok with this kind of thing?

LOL this site censors the word for a mixed drink how weird

Rosy, I wouldn't be okay with it either.

Thankyou everyone, it helps to know that others wouldn't be ok with it either. I feel like there is something wrong with me that I can't deal with stuff like this.

I empathise with your fears, but I have to ask, because it sticks out, why are you so jealous? Does he deserve it? Has he done something? Or is it just your insecurities, your own lack of self-esteem?

I ask because if it's the latter, you need to know that you are probably driving a wedge between you and your H. If you are jealous about everything, have to question him on all his activities, etc., he has probably reached a state where he simply doesn't confide in you, doesn't consider you his best friend, perhaps even feels 'if she is never going to trust me, I may as well get the benefit of doing what she always thinks I'm doing.'

Just something to consider.

I would NOT be okay with the party.

I wouldn't either. I just see a lot of excess anxiety in her posts, which is probably a huge LB for her H.

I don't see jealousy...I see an honest assessment of a bad situation.

Deal with stuff like what? Being excluded from such a large part of your husband's life, as in not being invited to social gatherings of his coworkers? There is nothing wrong with a person who has trouble dealing with being excluded from their spouse's life.

Have you read the article about Why Women Leave Men?

Has your husband?

Why? What in this post shows that he gives her reason to be jealous? That he works with young women?
My husband has received an invite to his work christmas party. Only employees invited, no partners.

He works as a pilot so with a lot of young single women. I have never met any of them (he doesn't do overnights and doesn't have time to socialise at work thankfully because I'm pretty jealous) and I am seriously unhappy about him going to a party with them.

Am I supposed to let him go, when not going could possibly be harmful to his career and going would definitely be harmful to our marriage (because of my jealousy)?
Is there more to the story than this?

She's talking about ONE party, that lasts maybe 4 hours. Four hours of her H's life. Sure, it would be great if the spouses were invited, but I've been to events where they weren't. It's just work; most people wouldn't even go without their spouses if it didn't make them look bad at work.

Where is the large part of his life she's being excluded from? She already said that he doesn't do overnights, so he's taking precautions (unlike other pilots we've heard of) to never be in another town with these women overnight. I'm sure if she wanted to, she could meet up with him at work now and again, to meet his coworkers.

What am I missing? Has he been having affairs or something?

cat, some people are cool with spouses-excluded work social functions. Others are not. She is clearly of the Not variety, which is fine. Nothing wrong with her to feel that way.

I don't think being a Not is a sign of excessive jealousy. It's a sign of someone with clear boundaries, who has no qualms enforcing them. It's called protecting the marriage, which is a MB concept, no?

Guys, you'll see that I agreed with you. All I'm trying to do is read between the lines, regarding their entire relationship - not just this party. She states "I'm a jealous person" and "he doesn't go on overnights". Doesn't anyone else see something slightly...stressed out in the way she describes their relationship? How jealous does she get? How many times does this become a big issue? Does he deserve it, or is she just so insecure that she requires him to check in with her everywhere he goes?

I was just trying to warn her that, from here, it looks like she has the potential to really LB her husband by being TOO jealous.

It's possible I'm completely reading in something that isn't there. But it's possible I'm seeing it for exactly what it is - a woman who runs a tight rein on her H because of her insecurities, and runs the risk of alienating him.

cat, in her OP, she stated that she hadn't met any of his coworkers, so my 'excluded' theory stands. How do you show up at a pilot's work, anyway? "Oh, hi honey, I was just on my way to...Boston. We were out of beans." lol.

Maybe she is too jealous. I thought the thread was about the appropriateness of spouse-excluded after-hours Christmas parties.

I would not be okay with my H going to such an event. How many times do we hear of As begin in the workplace? Add alcohol to the mix and no spouses around...no thanks.

Partying with co-workers of the opposite sex should not be tolerated.
Drinking with members of the opposite sex should not be tolerated.
Going to this party sends a message to the employer that spouse excluded parties are acceptable...he should do the right thing and either bring you...or not go. If he works for a company that would frown upon his not wanting to participate in an event that excludes his spouse, then he is working for the wrong company. Family comes first...way ahead of work.

You're right Catperson, luckily he doesn't go on overnights because he works for a company who schedule all their flights that way so nobody does overnights.
I do require him to check in with me all the time though and he does find it wearing I think although he tries to be sympathetic to my fears.

I really appreciate the input from everyone. It nice to know other people disagree with spouses exclusion from work parties like this. I feel sad for my husband sometimes that he doesn't get to do things other people think are normal, but I wouldn't be able to stop thinking about what he was doing and who he was talking to if he went.

The only way I stand a chance of meeting anyone he works with is to take a flight somewhere which I've done with my children 3 times now but there are probably 100 people at his base who he could be rostered with at any time and I can only see 2 or 3 of them on any one flight. I know he doesn't get chance to talk to them on a normal day other than briefing them on flight info and asking for coffee etc in flight, and he rarely works with the same people more than 2 days in a month so I can squash any insecurities about his job knowing all those details but the idea of this party is just so scary and unpleasant.

I know its not normal to have this level of jealousy and insecurity. I just don't know what to do about it other than making boundaries so I can stay comfortable.

What you do is work on your OWN insecurities. It's not healthy for you, your H, or your kids. This party aside, which is obviously a bad idea (so please people quit bringing it up regarding my posts - we've all already agreed it's a bad idea, and I'm not talking about it!), the longer you put constraints on him, the more you drain his Love Bank. Until eventually, he just doesn't care any more.

I only say this because I've seen it happen in real life. I've seen a woman drive her husband away, for one reason, and one reason only: she couldn't stop worrying about who he talked to, who he looked at, who looked at him, who was thinking about him, who he was thinking about, what they were thinking about her, on and on. He finally couldn't take the UN-deserved suspicion any longer.

Now, if he's done things to cause you to worry, that's another story. But if this is really all about YOU, then you need to take steps to find out why you can't just accept that he loves you. Not every man in the world goes out there looking to see if he can score some on the side. If he truly loves you, and is such a man, he'll stay in love with you a lot easier if you can just accept that.

What do you do? You learn and grow and improve yourself. You find a competent psychologist to talk to about your insecurities and formulate a plan for improving your self-esteem.

Listen to yourself:
You are controlling him, and he is allowing you to control him, simply because of YOUR fears. Do you think that adds to his Love Bank?

About the 'other people think are normal' comment: There are a lot of different definitions of 'normal'. There are religions for whom having multiple wives is considered 'normal'. Doesn't mean that it is normal for everyone.

the only definition of NORMAL that these two need to work with are their self-defined NORMALS. If it is normal in your world that married people attend social functions together, then that is perfectly acceptable. You and me may think that it would be weird to, say, don antlers and play Ride the Rudolph in the bedroom, but if these two do it every year, it's NORMAL for them.

Don't let other people define your boundaries, or what you accept as normal.

I know I'm new here, but I agree with catperson. From the sounds of it, he's gone above and beyond the call of duty your entire relationship to curb your jealousy. I also agree that the no-spouses party is ridiculous on the company's behalf (I've honestly never even heard of those, especially not regarding a holiday party).

If he's done nothing to keep you watchful, you probably don't need to check up on him so often. Someone said it before: if you suspect he's guilty of something, eventually he'll get tired of trying so hard to prove you wrong and actually do the things he's accused of. After all, you're already thinking it, and I don't mean to increase your fears, but if you have him check in all the time, he'll find loopholes to both be guilty and "prove" he's not. If he checks in every 30 minutes, there's a lot that can be done in 30 minutes. If he sends you picture messages showing where he is, they could be old - or even from someone else's phone.

That said, in the context of THIS thread, I wouldn't go to the party if I was your husband either. I'd probably object to the executives, actually, and ask that spouses can come (the holidays are a time of togetherness after all!)

She said sometimes. Which means it has come up before in other situations, and she's not just talking about this party. Without knowing specifics, she may be talking about a toga party, but she may also be talking about not allowing her H to go fishing with his friend to a campground. We don't know. But she admits herself she is too insecure and that it comes out in the marriage.

It has come up in other situations yes. Usually to do with any situation involving alcohol or going out to bars without me.
I'm also not great about him having one on one meetings with female friends (who are not friends of both of us, it doesn't worry me at all with certain of my friends if they meet up with the children for instance).

We've been together for 10 years now. For the last year I think he's been entirely trustworthy, incredibly loving and caring and happily transparent. In the first few years though there were secrets and lies that he told me, never to do with cheating but just not honesty. Last year he admitted to watching porn without me after denying it for years. They're not big things, we've worked them out but they've affected how safe I feel and I guess I still have a feeling of waiting for the next lie to be exposed.

Okay, so you know he's a liar. And he lied about something sexual.

Tell me again why you think there's something wrong with YOU that you don't want this man out drinking with women?

Because he's lovely and trusts me completely and he's worked so hard this year to be utterly open with me. I want to trust him too. Do you think it will come with time? I'm happy having boundaries in place, he knows I'm never going to be ok with alcohol consumption when we're apart for instance and thats ok. I just want to know when I will no longer feel sick when an invitation like this comes along again (as they seem to every christmas).
I guess I think its fine for me to tell him what I am and am not comfortable with (and vice versa) but I don't want to be quite so affected by it.

I know one of his most important ENs is recreational companionship and its one I struggle to meet at the moment so I'm possibly more worried about him going out meeting that need without me than I would be if we had the chance to do stuff together. I've posted about this before though, we're in a new country with no friends, family, money, car or anything and we have 2 small children. We don't speak the language here although we're working on it my husbands schedule and my breastfed baby means I can't sign up for classes or weekly meetings etc.
I am trying so hard to meet his needs and he's trying hard to meet mine though and we are feeling very much in love, I just hate how insecure I feel and how easily I can be upset by relatively small things.
I am such a fan or the marriage builders ideas though, they make so much sense. I don't have anyone to talk to in real life about this stuff because everyone I know seems to conduct their relationships utterly differently and they don't understand the amount of time DH and I spend together or how we're still

rosy, I really like MB too because it describes perfectly the way I want to be married, but my H spent a lot of time trying to convince me that my ideals were WRONG, because Other People socialized separately, Other People went on overnight trips with their friends, no spouses, Other People hung out at the bar after work with their co-workers...with the help of MB and several books and MC, he's starting to get that I'm not Other People, lol.

I don't know if trust will come with time. H broke my trust for the first time nearly 7 years ago, and I still struggle with it. Of course, he still lies, though. Does your husband tell you to "just get over it already, it's in the past"? That (along with the continued deceptions, lol) is one of my biggest roadblocks...that he thought that just saying Sorry was enough and now I should shut up about it. I needed him to GET IT. I needed him to understand that I know to him, lying is no big deal, but to ME, it's huge. Until he truly gets how he hurt me, I don't think I'll ever really get over it. Does your husband 'get it'?

I'm guessing if he wanted to go to this party and he knew that you wouldn't be keen on it, then he still doesn't get it.

Rosy,

In the absence of infidelity, I agree you need to learn to contain your fears. Get counseling, if that's what it takes. Gotta ask you, though...after he admitted he was viewing porn sites, has he STOPPED doing that? While not the same as literally hopping into bed with someone, it is a major love buster for a wife. Is he done with that?

I spotted another red flag, reading through your posts. You said you KNOW one of his top EN's is recreational companionship. You also said it was not happening because you have two small children and you don't speak the language of the country you're in.

NOT good enough to ignore what you are lucky enough to KNOW he needs! You must FIND a way to do some enjoyable things together, kids and language notwithstanding!

Do you live on or near a military base? (just a guess on my part.) If so, there MUST be others who "speak your language." WITH kids of their own. Get out and meet them! Sign up for kids' activities and meet other moms. Develop some interests of your own that will distract you from your jealousy and give you something fresh to talk about when your H is home. Develop friendships with others so you can be of mutual benefit--keep each other's kids for a couple of hours so you AND another couple can get some "alone" time for a walk in the park, a bike ride, a picnic--ANYTHING!

If you aren't connected to the military, contact the US Consulate and find out where American groups are meeting.

I'm stabbing here with these specific suggestions, but use your creativity to CREATE a life in this foreign land. It will not come to you packaged with a bow on it. There are so many ways to start!

Wishing you a more rounded life,

Right Here Waiting

You're right, I do need to make more effort to have fun with him. I've been kind of focusing on his need for SF and physical attractiveness since he told me about the porn use. In the last 6 months I've lost a lot of weight and thats made a big difference to how he responds to me. I didn't realise how much me putting on weight had affected him because he always told me it wasn't an issue.

I believe he has stopped looking at porn this year. I do worry about it though. It is a big deal for me and has caused me to feel quite upset this year especially since SF is one of my top needs and he was refusing me that fairly often before this year. Its pretty hurtful to be turned down when you're willing to do anything for your partner but then find out he was looking at porn.
Its hard to know for sure that he doesn't look anymore because I didn't have a clue that he was looking for 3 years until he came out and told me. That was much better than if I discovered it by accident though, I believe he really wants to stop hiding anything from me and work towards greater intimacy, I am just not quite managing to trust him all the time yet.

We can't leave the children, it just isn't possible but I've been thinking about some of the stuff we used to do together that didn't involve going out and we used to play computer games and I know he loves to laugh together so I will get some comedy movies to watch and get out our board games, we always have lots of fun with them. I've been trying today to do the things I know he finds attractive, smiling at him and trying to make him laugh.

Why isn't it possible to leave the kids?

Rosy,

The weight thing is a biggie for most men, so kudos on your success there. And I'd guess that his interest in you has also returned because he's given up the porn. (Yes, it IS good that he admitted it, instead of you discovering it. Maybe he was dropping a hint that you were smart enough to pick up on.) Didn't you say he ignored you while he was viewing it, and he's re-engaged in your sex life now? Enjoy that!

Good idea to focus on fun things to do together, but important to have private time without the children. Do you get a few hours at night after they've gone to bed, at least?

Right Here Waiting

My baby breastfeeds every hour or two still and we don't have anyone around us willing to have them. In time we'll get that freedom back I know but for now we have to work around it. They both sleep well though so we get easily 3-4hours every evening together alone.

I am loving having his attention and we're having lots of fun picking up our sex life again now I'm feeling totally back to normal after giving birth.

Its so lovely to be getting compliments from him again and to have him want me to dress nice etc. I really do adore him and he was totally fine with not going to the party in the end so it was a little bit of an overreaction on my part (I posted this topic before I'd talked to him)

I remember my D18's doctor telling me he wanted her to be off the bottle (of pumped milk; I went back to work at 3 months) by the time she was one year old; i.e. drinking regular drinks out of a kid's cup and eating solids (well, baby food). (She did, we had no problem with it) What is your plan?

And have you learned any French yet? Have you been to the American Embassy to see what help you can get in acclimating or in meeting other groups of Americans there?

I'm English not American but I imagine the embassy's are in paris and I'm in Marseille anyway which is about 8 hours drive away. Thankyou for the suggestion though.

Its hard to get out a whole lot because we only have the one car which my husband needs for work, and my baby is at an annoying stage of needing to nap every day for 1.5hours every morning and afternoon and this only works at home and the way things are scheduled here means that everything suitable for children happens on a wednesday so we can only attend one thing each week and only then if my husband happens not to be working that day (he doesn't actually work a whole lot at the moment because of winter flying schedules).

This thread has been really helpful to me in calming me down, making me see where I'm overreacting and where I'm not. I'm so grateful for the input and the time you've all given me. I can't talk to any of my real life friends or family about any of this because they're either not interested or have a different idea of what marriage should be than I do (they believe in blind trust and having seperate lives being important and so I just get told to get over it and trust him, which isn't hugely helpful even though I know I'm not always reasonable I also know its something he contributes to as well).

I've been doing lots of thinking about love busters and have gone through the questionnaire in my head. My H and I did the EN questionnaire a while ago when I first found this site but he didn't put the thought or care I'd hoped into it and doesn't really like the idea of being told how we should behave by somebody else although he's fairly good at listening to what I want and works quite hard in most areas to make me happy.

My biggest EN and also my biggest Love buster of course is honesty/dishonesty. My husband doesn't really get it though even now I don't think. He feels differently to me and I think would rather I kept things to myself rather than hurt his feelings which seems really wrong to me but this is how he treats me and I feel like its led to a number of years where I wasn't meeting his needs because he wasn't being honest with me about what they were.

I don't know how to get through to him about this, I know he's trying hard but I know he still wouldn't ever come out and tell me anything if he thought it would hurt my feelings and he's happy to mislead me if he's not actually telling outright lies he thinks its ok. Stupid example from years ago when we were talking about our pasts when we met he had been on an 18-30s holiday just a week or two before we met and had met three girls. I remember saying "Wow, you had sex with three girls in two weeks?" and he said "No, just fooled around" and then about 9 years later so six months ago he says he had sex with two of them and just fooled around with the other but apparently that wasn't a lie because he was saying no to having sex with 3 girls not with any of them.. I don't care who he had sex with before we met but I don't see why he would have deliberately misled me in the first place and why he would still think it was ok because he had a technical get out clause?

Do you think he'll ever really get that I need total honesty not just about what he's done but about what he feels and thinks?
I know he's trying but it really doesn't seem to come easily to him at all. I think he also feels ashamed of things he's done in the past and doesn't like to talk about them but I feel like he's forgiven for them but in order to make sure they won't happen again I need to be able to look at what caused them and what the consequences were and he doesn't want to do this.

I know that I've done things that have hurt him too, but he usually claims they've had no effect on him so I can't make amends or look at how I can avoid doing it in future. I suppose making a bigger effort to meet each others needs is making amends though.

Ah ignore me, I'm waffling rather a lot and I just need to think things through I guess and its easier to have somewhere to write them down. The fact is that we do actually have a really good marriage, we spend almost all our time together and we're definitely still romantically in love with one another. We've just been going through an intense phase I guess. I'm recovering from a pregnancy where I felt abandoned because he had to be away training in another country for 3 months and then was spending nights away working in different areas of the UK right up until the night I went into labour when he had to rush home (a 3 hour drive) in the middle of the night to make it for the birth. It was during his time away in another country when I was visiting him with our daughter and 30 weeks pregnant that he told me about the porn use too. Pathetically its taken me almost a year to not feel really betrayed anymore. I know I am getting there though and that we've just had an incredibly stressful year ( unexpectedly moving to France when baby was 8 weeks old as well) things will settle down as our baby grows and we start to get more adult time.

Some companies are trying to show their appreciation to their employees by having a Christmas party but would like to keep the costs down, especially during times of recession.

Why is it that you think that your husband might run off with another woman? Why do you not think that he would prefer you above the women he see's at this party? Are you having problems in your marriage that you are fearful he might stray? If so, that is what you need to focus on, and discuss.

If you are the jealous type and this behavior has shown itself in other relationships you have had, then explore that. Sometimes showing love is showing them that you trust them. If you feel that uneasy about the possible infidelity, then talk to your husband and work through the problem together, by working on a solution that works for both of you. That way your needs are met, and his needs are met.

I just read your last post, and maybe you are feeling a little insecure because you just gave birth a short time ago and you are going through some changes. The fact that your body is changing might be what is making you look at other things that could elevate those feelings of insecurity. The fact that you are in a foreign country with limited access leaves you with lots of time to think about these negative things. Regarding the trust issues that you have...initially, your H likely told you a partial truth about those girls because he didn't want to scare you off. If you knew the full truth, would you have trusted him any more? Would you have stopped investing in the relationship if you heard that? Looking too far into the past is holding your marriage back from growing. Trust has to be based on what he is doing today, and in your marriage. If he is working at meeting your needs, then he is investing into your marriage. If he is trying to share with you then he is investing. It is hard for one to change their habits when they have had many years of practice at it. The fact that he is making an effort shows that it is a work in progress, and that is an act of love.

Thankyou Enlighten_me of course you're right that the only thing he can change is his behaviour today not what he did in the past. Just its hard to let go of the "What else I don't know" feeling after there were so many lies I discovered only years later (he told me he'd written our his wedding vow to me himself but two years later I found it on the internet attributed to someone else and I don't get why he would lie over that and not admit it until confronted with evidence).

I never really had a serious relationship with anyone else but wasn't prone to being jealous or possessive with the people I dated before him. We got together when I was 19 and have been together for 10 years. I had good self esteem when we met I think but he turned me down for sf repeatedly for many years and a few times did some quite cruel things (stepped over me and turned on the tv when I made a big effort to dress in sexy underwear and waited for him enticingly) so I've felt unattractive for a long time. He feels really bad about this now and is so much more complimentary and thoughtful towards me, he would never behave this way now so I know I need to get over it.

He's not going to the party anyway, he says he doesn't want to go since he only knows the captains he flies with really at work anyway and would prefer to get together with them someplace they can talk rather than a place where everybody will be drinking lots, he doesn't really drink and would have to drive anyway.

Perhaps at the time when he was telling these lies he was trying to avoid conflict, and didn't want to do anything that might risk scaring you off. He probably had the best intentions to want to write some special vows, but couldn't find the words to do justice for what he was feeling. It doesn't mean that he didn't mean it. Now that you have been married for some time, he probably would not have any fear to tell you that he couldn't find the words. Maybe on your next anniversary you can suggest that you both rewrite your vows and share them over dinner, or some private moment together. (How romantic.) That way, you can relive the past and get closure on it. Being that it was almost ten years ago, both you and him have grown and matured since the time that he concealed information from you. He has had 9 years so far to learn that lying has not been an effective tool for him in your marriage.

You can choose to live in the past, which slows down the progression of your marriage (sometimes to a crawl), or you can decide that today, you are going to wipe the slate clean and allow to him fill up your love bank with trust. When you choose the latter, you are living in the moment, and you will feel your marriage deepen. If you do decide to let go of the past, let your H know, so that he has an understanding that on a go forward basis, you would like to have open and honest communication because that is one of your EN. Being proactive, talk about what you would like from each other when dealing with a tense situation, that way, he will feel more at ease to share the truth, because he knows what to expect from you. (People usually lie when they feel fear.)

I am glad that your H has come up with an alternative solution. The important thing here is that in the past, he made some bad decisions, but he is certainly making up for that now. Try taking some time to explore your self. A lot of times our own insecurities that we have can distort reality. Over time, that distortion can become real. If you feel confident, then others will see your confidence, and be drawn to you because they feel more secure around you. When you feel weak/insecure then others will pick up on it, and if you don't feel good about yourself, then they are not going to feel entirely safe and secure with you. Don't let the past dominate your present, and let your present be your gift for a happier tomorrow. Take care.

Funny twist is that lots of people boycotted the works Christmas party because of the no partners rule. It was last night and I think most of the pilots with families didn't go.

I understand firms wanting to save money but why wouldn't they just say partners welcome to purchase a ticket or limit everyone to one free drink etc.

It's safe to say that the world does NOT support marriage. The evidence is all around us. Makes it hard to carve your own path, but very rewarding when you do!

Glad your H skipped the party. Maybe eventually, the boycott will have an impact.

Rosy - If they have a "no-spouse" party next year, couples could get together on their own for an evening of dinner/dancing, or whatever sounds fun....

Scheduling it for the same evening might prove a point!

We just went out for dinner tonight with another pilot and his wife and 8 of the other pilots. So now I've met some of the guys hubby works with and had a lovely night out (albeit listening to pilot talk all night and juggling the baby and helping my 4 year old colour) but it was so nice to get out of the house on an evening and get dressed up nicely for my husband

Yay!