Marriage Builders
Posted By: armymama Recovery - Take Two - 09/07/08 12:07 AM
One year ago, my husband was starting the EA that turned our lives into a horror show. Two weeks later he was declaring his love for TOW and a short three weeks after that he went to her hotel room and the PA began. So many ironies - I called in the middle of their first evening together. I called the first time she came over to his apt that he kept while he was deployed. When I visited, I joked about finding panties under his bed - joke was on me wasn't it?

4+ months after D-day, things seem to be better. We have moved. NC was established 19 July and seems to be in place. My H is mostly supportive. He is attentive and caring, but does seem to have many rationalizations for what happened. He did not think I loved him because I did not want to move to the city he was deployed to; the OW manipulated him; everything except that he made a series of selfish decisions that caused this nightmare.

Yesterday, he flew to our old city, picked up the car that had been in the accident 6 weeks ago and drove home. I should be grateful, but instead I focus on the idea that this is the car they went to lunch in and then stopped on the way back to work. I really did not miss the car when it was gone.

Many more days like this to get through - his birthday, the day he said he loved her, the day it turned PA, the day I intercepted the text message in the middle of the night, D-day. I am dreading all these days and am not sure this whole M recovery is worth the effort. Depression seems to be my new normal.

Posted By: hardtimesinlife Re: One year ago - 09/15/08 05:33 PM
I'm so sorry you are hurting. The first year after is the hardest because at every turn there is a trigger. I found the 2nd year to be easier, still painful but not gut wrenching. Hugs.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 10/16/08 03:59 PM
This is starting to feel like recovey by the numbers. Six months after D-day and it has gone along just like everyone here said it would. Dave Carder has a chart from one of his books that shows as a rule of thumb the BS takes as long to recover as the affair lasted. Of course, in our case, there really was no recovery for the first 3 months after D-day because of the continued contact and the geographical distance between FWH and me.

Now I am feeling the anger and not much love for the FWH. He is doing and saying all the right things, but sometimes all I feel is disgust for his actions, his lies, his inability to ever tell the OW NO. However, even though I don't feel any love, I cannot imagine what my life would be like if he were not a part of it.

Now it seems as though he is re-writing the A, saying that he never really felt close to her, that he never really wanted her, that the sex was like a "command performance" and not intimate. He says he liked coming home to be with the family. However, his actions during the A speak differently. He wrote several passionate letters and when I dropped him off at the airport on Monday mornings, the first thing he did was call her and talk for an hour. Is re-writing the A as typical as re-writing the marriage?

Bottom line is this still really sucks.

AM


Posted By: cobol_girl Re: One year ago - 10/16/08 05:51 PM
D-Day for me was June of this year. My H says the same thing about his ex-AP. He says that he never cared for her, the sex was passionless and not that good. He even says that he didn't like her. He says that he called her to hotel room when he traveled because he knew she would come and wouldn't ask any questions. He also says that she put witch craft on him but I'll save that story for Jerry Spring (LOL). He said that he was so glad to get home to me after traveling as well. He said that she would beg him to come visit him when he wasn't traveling and he told her that him and I spend all of our available time together and he would never take time a way from me (yeah right).

I am also at the indifferent stage. I don't want to divorce my H because I can't imagine life without him but sometimes I look at him and just want to throw up thinking about what he did with the OW. I use to love to watch my H get dressed in the mornings and see him without clothing. Now, when he prances around nude I just want to tell him to go sit down somewhere because I am so not interested in looking at him. I use to admire his strength so much, now I think about how weak he was for an ugly wh*re and I have hardly any respect for him. I hope this gets better because I really want to regain the respect and love I had for him.

My T says that I had too high expectations of him before and now I must find a middle ground.
Posted By: black_raven Re: One year ago - 10/16/08 06:16 PM
Would you be willing to trade the car in for another? If you can afford to get rid of things you have that are painful reminders, get rid of them. I got rid of something as stupid as my toaster because I knew he was talking on the phone to OW when I sent FWH out to buy one. Things H bought me during this time went into the trash, were donated, or returned to the store if possible. Not that the absence of things is going to make me forget but it felt gross having those things in my home.

As for rewriting the history of the A, I can only guess that some do it because they see just how [censored] up there behavior was and want to minimize it as much as possible.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 10/18/08 11:22 AM
I purged most of the trigger objects long ago. If I find one now, I just trash it. I also trashed my journal, the phone records, copies of their emails and letters, things I had been keeping in case I decided later to divorce. But, I had started obsessively going through them. I still have the car, but it does not really make me trigger anymore. It had alot of damage after the interstate accident and somehow it does not feel like the same car. Since we moved, there are many less triggers. Even the number of silver Hondas (OW car) seems less here.

Interestingly, WH tried to make me think that he hung onto the boxers that OW gave him because he thought they were "funky" and not because he related them to her. I had pitched them and three other trash bags full of stuff at about D-day plus 3 weeks. He says now that he just does not think about this stuff. My comment was that these thoughts will come back.

We are now just starting to deal with the potential PTSD from his first deployment to Iraq. I knew things were bad during his deployment, but now is the first I am hearing some of the details. I don't know if any of this is related to the A or not. Certainly, many, many As occur without war being a factor. Not sure if it is in our case, or if H is looking for a way to rationalize/explain his behavior since it was so atypical.

AM

Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 03/14/09 03:33 PM
Another anti-versary today. A year ago, the OW arranged to stay at my H's apt for three days (Lied to OWH about going out of town for work). While they were at his place, I had gone on a ski trip with D14 and the scouts. H had shut his phone off (first time ever - he told me the OW asked him to, so he did. He pretty much did everything she asked except let her move in) and a woman on the trip with me gave me a really pitying look that I dismissed at the time.

This year, H and D14 are on a camping trip with the scouts and I am home alone. We had discussed this and agreed that he could go and that I would have a plan for the weekend. I had worried quite a bit about this and talked with my IC about what I would do this weekend. I am doing my plan and feel pretty good.

In fact, the odd thing is that I don't mind him being gone one bit. If fact, I am glad he is not here. I don't have to look at him or talk to him. My "lovebank" has been pretty much at zero for quite some time and I am really starting to think I might just be better off without him. Alot to consider. not really any questions here; not even a vent or rant.

AM




Posted By: optin1 Re: One year ago - 03/15/09 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
In fact, the odd thing is that I don't mind him being gone one bit. If fact, I am glad he is not here. I don't have to look at him or talk to him. My "lovebank" has been pretty much at zero for quite some time and I am really starting to think I might just be better off without him.

AM,

So, in a nutshell, you dont love him anymore ? What about him ? Was the marriage any better in the last few months, did it ever improve after the NC ? Do you and your husband have open and honest communication regularly ?
Posted By: broken_soul Re: One year ago - 03/15/09 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
This is starting to feel like recovey by the numbers. Six months after D-day and it has gone along just like everyone here said it would.

Now I am feeling the anger and not much love for the FWH. He is doing and saying all the right things, but sometimes all I feel is disgust for his actions, his lies, his inability to ever tell the OW NO.

I cannot imagine what my life would be like if he were not a part of it.

Now it seems as though he is re-writing the A, saying that he never really felt close to her, that he never really wanted her, that the sex was like a "command performance" and not intimate. He says he liked coming home to be with the family. However, his actions during the A speak differently.

Is re-writing the A as typical as re-writing the marriage?

Bottom line is this still really sucks.

This is where I am right now. All of it.

FWH seemed to re-write his EA almost immediately. Says he never stopped loving me, never stopped wanting things to work, never stopped finding me beautiful. He also says that he would confide in her about how bad things were at home. How does it go from that to her sending a mostly-nude pic of herself and cyber sex? If he really felt those things about me, how could that even REMOTELY seem like something to do? Why wasn't he the one to read? Why wasn't he the one to seek out marriage counseling? Why wasn't he the one who found this site? Why that SKANK?! WTF?!
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 03/16/09 09:57 AM
"So, in a nutshell, you dont love him anymore ? What about him ? Was the marriage any better in the last few months, did it ever improve after the NC ? Do you and your husband have open and honest communication regularly ?"

Good questions. I guess when someone says their love bank is hovering around zero, they are saying they are not in love. H and I talked about that last week. I feel as though I have been telling him what I need, and he tries a little bit for a little while and then goes back to doing things according to habit. I don't know if he loves me or not. Maybe not since comment above.

Did our marriage improve since NC? Not really, I guess so (take your pick) from my persepctive. Since D-day, it has pretty much been up and down, a couple steps forward, one or two backward. He has been NC since Jul and I guess has pretty much made it through withdrawal. Last week he mentioned that he stopped thinking about a "warm and fuzzy place" from/with OW last August or so. But he told me long before that that he did not miss her.

So, maybe the crux of this is the open and honest communication. How the heck would I even know if it is open and honest? Sometimes I think we have that kind of communication. Othertimes, he comments that he withholds information to protect me and to protect himself.

I had said near the beginning of this whole thing that I would not make any decisions until April 2010 (D-Day plus 2 years). In the meantime, I will give M my best shot. We are working on the MB home study course and Dr. Harley has a guarantee. So we'll either have our M or our $$ back.

Thanks for responding. It got me thinking.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 03/31/09 05:04 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
Another anti-versary today. A year ago, the OW arranged to stay at my H's apt for three days (Lied to OWH about going out of town for work). While they were at his place, I had gone on a ski trip with D14 and the scouts. H had shut his phone off (first time ever - he told me the OW asked him to, so he did. He pretty much did everything she asked except let her move in) and a woman on the trip with me gave me a really pitying look that I dismissed at the time.

This year, H and D14 are on a camping trip with the scouts and I am home alone. We had discussed this and agreed that he could go and that I would have a plan for the weekend. I had worried quite a bit about this and talked with my IC about what I would do this weekend. I am doing my plan and feel pretty good.

In fact, the odd thing is that I don't mind him being gone one bit. If fact, I am glad he is not here. I don't have to look at him or talk to him. My "lovebank" has been pretty much at zero for quite some time and I am really starting to think I might just be better off without him. Alot to consider. not really any questions here; not even a vent or rant.

AM

I couldn't sleep tonight so I was going through posts of BS who replied to me about six weeks ago. I'm sorry to see that since your reply to me--one which helped so much--that you find yourself so low. What has happened to get you to this point--other than the affair itself? My limited knowledge of your situation left me feeling hopeful for your recovery.

Your February words of encouragement to me were so needed. I pray that you will find peace and contentment.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 04/06/09 11:22 AM
Thank you, Goldenyears, for the positive words and prayers.

Nothing in particular has happened. Maybe it is just part of the rollercoaster of feelings. I guess my lovebank has been hovering around zero for a few months, bouncing in and out of positive and negative balances depending on what is going on that day.

We are close to the one year point for D-day and I am really dreading getting through the anti-versaries of D-day, my birthday three days after D-day, etc.

We went on a cruise last week. Like every other day, the days on the trip had their ups and downs, some good things and moments happened. But there were also some down times - mostly related to triggers such as music that was playing on the ship (how many times can Love Shack play? I really HATE that song)

I actually made it to 4:20 PM one afternoon without thinking of the A.

One thing that has made things difficult lately is that H has admitted to thinking about OW occasionally, wondering how she is doing, etc. He has said that he has not contacted her and I believe this. But this whole thing still really, really stinks.

AM

Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 04/11/09 03:49 PM
AM,
It's good to hear from you. I really was getting worried. I guess that hole in your love bank made by the A is still draining the account. (I told my own FWH this morning that he's doing a good job of making deposits in my bank, but that nasty old hole just barely keeps the level up.)

I'm not surprised that your FWH still thinks of the OW. I think they all do, but they deny it. Right now I'm doing all I can to make my FWH think of her as the villian I know her to be. Just like your H's OW, the OW in my H's life had a history of seduction--seduction so subtle that he was in over his head before he knew it.

Hopefully, when your FWH thinks of her, he hopes she is as satisfied with her life as he is.

Your posts do indeed keep me aware of what lies ahead of me.

I'll be thinking of you and praying for you over the next few very difficult weeks.

Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 04/15/09 11:09 AM
OK, Goldenyears, this one is for you. I hope I can express what I am really thinking. Often, my brain goes so much faster than my fingers that things get left out.

A year ago, I discovered my husband's seven month long PA with an EA of a few more months. H really can't figure out when the EA started, but the entire A progression pretty much followed the wayward spouse script - co-workers who got too close. D-day plus three months, NC was established; H had self-reported the A to his boss, was investigated, punished and took an early retirement from the Army. We moved to another state and set about trying to recover our M.

Here are some things that I have learned over the last year. I am certainly not the first one to say any of them and this is just an expression of where I/we/the M are at this point in time.

1. There is no satisfactory answer to the question "why"? We have discussed all kinds of reasons, such as we were apart for 3 and 1/2 out of 5 years with military deployments; we thought we were supporting each other's needs - my H gained a great deal of admiration through his military career and he thought he was supporting my financial emotional needs by taking deployments and increasing our retirement funds. But, we never really talked about this and it turned out we were "holding the wrong ladders". But during our time apart, we were both in the same marriage and when other men "sounded me out for interest", I ran the other way and he had a drunken ONS and the EA/PA. This concept has been very difficult for H to figure out - why he acted so unlike himself, why he compromised his moral code, his military code of conduct and most importanly his marital vows.

2. I fully concur that BSs experience PTSD. I have never had a child die or been a victim of rape, so I can't compare to them. But I believe I have PTSD. One thing I learned about PTSD is that two people can have the same experience and one can be affected much more than the other. I have been reading here nearly every day since D-day plus 3 weeks; we have been in MC since D-day plus 4 days (that was before I knew that it really was not that effective until NC had been established. Actually, maybe that comment is it can be effective when the A ends, because I think MC was helpful in our case from the beginning when the PA had ended, but there still was contact); and I have been in IC for the past 5 months. We are currently working on the second module of the MB home course. I feel incredibly fortunate to have found these resources. I found this forum after reading SAA (I bought every infidelity book in our local bookstore - the man at the cash register gave me the saddest look.) Our counselors have been excellent, all Christian based.

3. The rollercoaster is a great analogy. The lows were really, really low and the highs were promising. But it has really, really slowed down in the past few months. Three days after D-day, I had a meltdown in the middle of a nail salon, leaving the middle without paying (I went there all the time so they weren't TOO worried about the $$, but it was really embarassing to go back in there). After about 5 weeks, I was driving down a narrow country road at 85 mph screaming as loud as I could. Fortunately, nothing was coming the other way and I am an otherwise good driver. I don't do any of those kinds of things anymore. I sleep better, I am calmer and the weight loss stopped at 24 pounds. The worst that happens now is that I get into a "funk". And these funks are not as deep and do not last as long as they used to.

4. The A is with me every day. There has not been one day that I have not given it some sort of thought. Once I made it to 4:20 PM. I really look forward to not having the A on my mind for 1 day, then 2 and then longer and longer. Maybe this will happen in the second year post D.

5. One thing that happened that I was really unprepared for was the challenge to my faith and spirituality. Before the A, there had been little in my life that required real faith. My spirituality was mostly on auto-pilot and I did not really think about it much. i retired from the Army while the A was ongoing and before D. At that time, my prayers were that God's plan be revealed to me and then came D-day. That certainly was not the answer I had been expecting. After the A, I found myself actually hoping that there was no afterlife and that when I died all the pain would die. I found myself jealous of people who had faith. I also had to deal with my thoughts about forgiveness, both giving and receiving it. At first, my prayers and the prayers of my H and me were desperate pleas for recovery and reconciliation. It has been difficult. Lately, it has been easier to pray thankfully. I am hopeful that in the end my faith will be stronger than ever.

H and I have been married for nearly 27 years. This is my second M, the first one ending after horrible infidelity. I had always said that I would divorce if I found out about an A. But it is not what we did. I am hopeful that our M will be a better one in the future. I know that requires constant attention and a great deal of work. I hope that we are up to it, can guard against complacency, and can restore our love and M.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 04/15/09 07:05 PM
AM,
As you pointed out to me a couple of months ago, our stories are indeed similar--except for the military part. Your advice to me upon several occasions has been so on target that I feel a real kinship to you in this dysfunctional MB family. I hope that summarizing your story for me was in some way cathartic. I haven't yet decided if going back over the outline of my tragedy helps or hurts me. I do know that sometimes I talk to myself in the car about the events of the last four and a half months. You might remember from some of my earlier posts that no one except our MC, the OW, and the OWH know about the A; consequently, I have no one to talk to except my MB buddies. The one thing that you and others have convinced me of is that I have to be prepared for the many dips in my rollercoaster ride for the next few years. Steve H also told me that about 75% of the recovery (triggers, etc.) is done in the first couple of years with the last 25% stretched out thinly over the next few years. (At least that's what I think he said to me in my one phone session with him.)

I too have bought and read a stack of books about surviving infidelity. When did you begin the MB home course? Did you go to the MB Weekend?

You have such a level head, and it seems that your FWH is on the right track. I pray for the best for you.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 04/15/09 09:34 PM
Thanks Goldenyears,

I feel a kinship with your story as well. Certainly, we have both been married for a pretty long time and thought we had good marriages until the A. And even though there are several people who know about the A in our marriage, I really don't talk to them about it. I think it is sort of like asking someone how they are doing - the asker does not REALLY want to know and I think the people who do know about it don't want to talk about it anymore. In any case, I don't bring it up to them. I know they are all rooting for us though.

It is good to hear that stat about the triggers. I am definitely ready to be done with them. H and I talked quite a bit today and he is wondering just how long we are going to be talking about the A. I said that the A is now part of our history, just like other bad times we had with cancer, job problems, etc. They are always there and we talk about them sometimes, but not with the same frequency or intensity. He really had not understood my inability to just switch my thinking (I posted on Mark's trigger thread about this). Likewise, I have had quite a bit of difficulty in understanding why his tendency for conflict avoidance led him to continuing contact with OW when they were still working in the same office (everytime she asked to talk, he did - never could tell her no).

I am feeling pretty good today. And on the days, when I spin, it is not near as deep or for as long.

We started the home course about a month ago. Our MC suggested that we find a study course (either Biblical or secular) that we could work on together. We finished the first two modules. We went on a trip week before last and last week DS15 was still on spring break so we didn't work on it then. I think we will get back to it the next couple of days. We did not attend a weekend and I think that is ok. We have confidence in our counselors and really are able to talk to each other without having to wait to see MC.

Prayers always welcomed. Thanks for the encouraging post.

AM
Posted By: OurHouse Re: One year ago - 04/15/09 10:25 PM
Boy is this a great question:

Quote
Is re-writing the A as typical as re-writing the marriage?

My H had about a 1.5 year EA and the stuff he told her! With an EA conducted via email, the added (not) benefit is that I got to READ everything. So declarations of love, telling her things I would say and his response, THINGS I LIKED IN BED!!!, stuff about timelines about being together in the future. Yup, got to read all that. And then when I asked him later:

"those were just words on a computer screen"

"they came from my head, not my heart"

barf
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 04/15/09 10:43 PM
Our House,

I am so sorry this happened to you. Maybe I was lucky. There were a few emails that he had not deleted from his sent box and one letter that he had in a gym bag and forgotten. The OW shredded the letters H wrote to her a few minutes before OWH arrived to search her office. Still, OWH took all the shreads of paper, straightened them out, pinned them to a board, took a photo and emailed it to me. When I think of OWH, this really saddens me. I deleted the email a few months ago. It was too painful to look at. Today, my H said he was so sorry that he had ever written anything to her and more importantly, he was sorry he started the A. He has been very remorseful and I have to take him at his word today. I think we are finally making R progress.

Yes, I think WSs re-write the A, just as they re-wrote the M.

Best wishes to you and your M.

AM
Posted By: OurHouse Re: One year ago - 04/16/09 12:48 AM
AM:

Unfortuantely, my H has not been as remorseful. He did write (a rather wimpy) NC letter though it took him a week and he initally told me he didn't want me to read it. I'm about 99% sure that NC has held since Oct '06 with the exception of one incident in Nov '06 but he told me about that.

He was intially very guilt-ridden and remorseful and he spent a lot of time answering questions. But between the "I don't knows" and "I don't remembers" and "it sounded good at the times" etc., I just feel I haven't gotten the entire story. Or maybe it's just me and I'm not cut out for recovery. I've still not moved past it and when I bring it up now, he gets angry and asks "am I going to have to live with this the rest of my life?" or "I'm never going to live this down, am I?"
Posted By: black_raven Re: One year ago - 04/19/09 10:30 PM
Hang in there armymama.

Quote
This concept has been very difficult for H to figure out - why he acted so unlike himself, why he compromised his moral code, his military code of conduct and most importanly his marital vows.

My H is prior Army too. I know that the uniform does not make the man but for a very long time I had an ideal of what the uniform represented. Obviously soldiers are not exempt from fidelity and military life poses more threats due to deployments and stress involved, but I was deeply sadden that the man who would honorably defend his country and in essence protect total strangers, wouldn't protect his own wife and family. OW was in no way from his military days but I still have a hard time seeing him as honorable even back then. On top of that, I had a period of time where I questioned every deployment...did he cheat when he got deployed that time? Questioning your life to try and figure out where the lies start and end sucks.
Posted By: black_raven Re: One year ago - 04/19/09 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
He really had not understood my inability to just switch my thinking (I posted on Mark's trigger thread about this).

While I'm sure most waywards want the A talk to go away ASAP, do you think your H's military mindset plays a part of that as well? I know when H was in conflicts he had to tune everything out except for the mission at hand and compartmentalizing stuff is also a coping mechanism for him. Since you were in the military too, maybe your H expects you to be able to switch your thinking moreso than other people. Problem is this your personal life. Hope that makes sense.

Will keep you in my prayers too armymama. hug
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 05/17/09 07:53 AM
This has been a pretty tough week. Thursday, H and I had a serious discussion about our M options - 1) continuing on as we have been going 2) working harder on the M or 3) going our separate ways.

We had been working on the MB home study course, but have not done anything in the last 3-4 weeks. The last sub-course we did on openess and honestry was very disturbing to us both. H had answered the question "If you were to decide that you would never again be dishonest with your spouse, would you be able to stop" with a "no, because I don't have a perfect self-esteem and still avoid conflict". This was an honest answer to the question, but it was really troublesome to me. My feeling was why should I trust H with my feelings if he is going to continue to be dishonest with me. The As have been weighing heavily on my mind since then.

H says that after working on this sub-course, he has a fear of working on other ones - fear that we would split up.

I am back to not sleeping too well and having nightmares. Last night I dreamt I went into a hotel, everyone there had the OW's face and I could not find the way out of the hotel.

There are several good reasons for me to remain M, none of them related to being in love. In any case, we decided to go back to working on the M and have agreed to work on the sub-courses on Tues and Thurs. Neither one of us like talking on Fri. It just sets a bad tone for the weekend. I am willing to give the M more time and hope for R.

This is still very, very difficult to accept.

AM
Posted By: optin1 Re: One year ago - 05/17/09 10:26 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
My feeling was why should I trust H with my feelings if he is going to continue to be dishonest with me. The As have been weighing heavily on my mind since then.
he is being dishonest because he wants to avoid conflict ? Why is the affair weighing heavily on your mind, you think he is not totally being honest about the affair or with questions you ask him about it ?
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 05/18/09 07:05 AM
What H cannot commit to is future openness. He keeps quiet to avoid conflict. Before/during the A, I thought everything was good in the marriage, that we were a team pulling in the same direction. I had always been the big planner person, throwing out options for vacations, for finances, for long term planning. I thought we were POJAing (did not know this term then) these things, but actually we were both doing alot of independent behavior, ie did not really have the joint agreement we (I?) thought we had.

H was keeping his opinions to himself. And so, now I know if he does not tell me what he is thinking/feeling, I don't have a clue. Our MC (and I think Jeff Foxworthy says this too) says that most of the time men are thinking about what is not too much of anything, what is going on around them, what their plans might be etc and not how they are feeling about it. So that leaves me clueness.

I don't know why the A is on my mind so much recently. There were some trigger dates that I got through a bit better than I expected. Do I think H has been honest with what he has told me? I don't know. Certainly, all the things that I could verify, he came clean on relatively quickly. On the other things, he engaged in a great deal of "trickle truth", leaving things out or not correcting incorrect impressions, etc. So I guess yes, there are things that I still am not sure about. At this point, it is not the what happened so much as the willingness to be open about it.

I hope the next sub-course starts to get easier.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 10/26/09 02:31 PM
AM,
How are you? I came here looking for you today. I hope all is going well on the R front.

Golden
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 10/26/09 05:12 PM
Hi Goldenyears,

Thanks for checking in with me. I hope things are well with you. Have you moved into the new place yet?

I thought things had been going really pretty well. H and I were going out of our way to do nice things for each other. I was feeling pretty good about things. Then on Monday last week, I happened to check the keylogger on the computer (had been doing this infrequently, but once in a while just to follow up). The keylogger showed that H had visited porn sites a week ago Friday and then again last Monday. Monday evening I told him that I knew what he had been doing on the computer. He was pretty defensive about it at first, said that I was DJing him, delivering verbal "jabs" to him. I don't really think I was; I was calm and listening to him. I think it was him gaslighting me. Tuesday he had his regularly scheduled PTSD group and he was the big topic of conversation. Basically, he thought that when things are going "too good", he sabotages himself by doing something unacceptable. Of course, it was not his intent to let me know what he had been doing. The other guys in the group do not "get this" behavior. Neither do I. So....... more work to do.

In any case, I have not been sleeping well for the past few days. Last night I had some bad dreams again. I am ready for a good night's sleep. And I am back to not being able to "trust my gut" about how life is - that is a real kicker since I was just starting to trust my own perceptions.

MIL had a minor stoke a couple of weeks ago and is due to get out of rehab facility this week. H is going out west to spend a couple of weeks with her when she first gets home. In the meantime, still a bunch of things to do to get ready for winter.


AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 10/27/09 01:52 AM
AM,
From a R standpoint, we are doing pretty well. Every once in a while, I get a little startled by comments that remind me of H's behavior prior to d-day. He used to forward a lot of unsavory emails to male friends; and while I did not care for this, I really never made an issue of it. He volunarily stopped doing this just after d-day (or so he said). This past weekend, a cousin asked him "Does your wife know about the emails you send?" H responded that he doesn't send those anymore, but I have to wonder if he is back at that. I asked him and he said that he has not resumed. I let it go, but I will revisit it in a more secretive way.

I've had a pretty hard few weeks now. My sister died a couple of weeks ago, and both H and I have been devastated along with the rest of our family.

We are facing the anniversary of d-day next month, and H is very anxious about its effect on me. He is planning a trip for us to coincide with the dates. I just keep remembering what one of you told me--that was then; this is now.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 10/28/09 12:20 PM
Golden,

I am sorry to hear about the death of your sister. It adds to the difficulty to have this loss added to what your M has endured in the past year.

I hope your D-day antiversary goes ok. For me, it was not as bad as what I had thought it was going to be. But, I really made some preparations ahead of time with IC about how to deal with it. I did the same with other dates (dates are a problem for me) and it worked out pretty well. Just knowing that there might be a bad day allowed me to deal with it much better.

I check on H's boundries when the mood suits me - not every day, but once in a while. We are doing better again. H leaves Friday for a couple of weeks with his mother. This is will be the first time we have been apart for any length of time since H returned home from military deployment in summer of 08.

I think it was you that told me, "That was then and this is now".

Best wishes my friend.

AM



Posted By: black_raven Re: One year ago - 10/28/09 11:46 PM
A drive by to say hello to am and gy. smile

You sound a little more calm am...I hope.

Sorry about your sister gy. Stay busy with something fun on the antiDay. That helped me and it passed without much upset.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 10/28/09 11:49 PM
Thanks for checking in. Yep, compared to last year, I am so calm that I am practically comatose.

AM
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: One year ago - 10/29/09 09:02 PM
hi AM and GY-
i think i was the one who posted that expression -"that was then- this is now". Jennifer Harley Chalmers had said that to me during one of our phone counseling sessions- and it stuck in my brain.

GY- sorry to hear of your sister's passing. also - i know exactly what you mean of seeing remnants of the old personality in my H- i feel exactly the same way- unsettled and unsafe.

AM- glad to hear that you are calm and dealing with things.

my life seems so weird right now - with my H hanging onto anger at me. it is also reminiscent of the old him- which causes me to withdraw....
sf
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 10/31/09 02:06 AM
Sunflower,

I KNEW I heard that phrase somewhere on my thread - the part that disappeared along with my memory..... Hmmmm, maybe that's a good thing.

H left today for a couple of weeks at MIL's. I slipped a little note into his luggage before he left. He should find it when he shaves in the morning.

The ride to the airport was quiet. I was a little worried about how I was going to deal with things. But it is really going ok so far.

SF and GY, I really hope that things will improve for both of you very soon.

AM



Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/03/09 05:26 PM
OK. I am a mess here. Maybe I need to move this thread back over to the SAA forum.

My H is staying with his mother for a couple of weeks. Left last Friday and has a return ticket for the 14th. This morning, I saw an email that he had sent yesterday, telling someone that H is thinking about looking for another military deployment. I phoned him and he told me that he has not been in love with me for quite some time. So, I asked whether I should call and attorney and he paused and said that was probably a good idea. When I asked about how he would want to split things up, he said we could do that when he comes home. I said, "No, you don't understand. If we divorce, I never want to see or talk with you again. What did you think, we could stay friends?" Now he is saying that he wants to be with me, wants to be in love with me, but just isn't having those feelings. He thinks he is depressed and feeling isolated. MIL probably isn't helping things. Her idea of support is to tell you to do whatever makes you happy.

I feel as though every time things are going along ok, the rug gets pulled out from underneath. There is no way I can even trust my own perceptions and feelings. Life sucks again.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 11/03/09 08:40 PM
Armymama,
OMG!!! I hardly know what to say. Sometimes there just aren't enough words to help with someone's grief. Please know that I am devastated with your news.

If you want to email me so that we can have another type of dialogue, please do.

**edit**

Your friend,
GY

Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 12:21 AM
AM,
Your most recent post has been on my mind constantly since I read it several hours ago.

First of all, there is absolutely no excuse for your H's most recent bombshell. Something, however, doesn't add up.

First, he says call the lawyer. Then he says he wants to come home, he wants to love you, etc. He's visiting his mother, who--if remember correctly--told you how bad it was that you had insisted upon the lie detector test. You also mentioned that her experience with infidelity was handled with her just accepting the betrayal and never working through it--thereby just existing rather than truly loving and living. It sounds as if she might have really added to whatever problems your H might have had in the back of his mind.

As I relayed this latest horror of yours to my H, he wondered if your H might also be suffering from an identify crisis because of his retirement from the army. My H was not making excuses for yours but trying to figure why your H seems so contraditory in his emotions and reactions at this point.

Unfortunately, his scheduled trip home to his mom's came too soon after the revelation of his looking at porn sites. He obviously left town feeling like a bit of a loser. I'm just theorizing here.

Having been out-of-town a great deal over the last six months caring for my dying sister, I know how being separated from your recovery partner can play havoc with your mind.

I'm anxious to hear from you. I hope you're okay.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 01:41 AM
Thanks GY,

Today has been difficult (can I underestimate any more than that?). In further phone calls, H admitted a couple of things to me. He emailed the OW last Sunday telling her that he still loved her. He said he did not hear anything back from her, but who knows what to believe anymore. He also admitted that the last time he saw her in July 2008 (I think my acount of that day is somewhere on MB, but not on this thread.) In any case, he admitted today that he and she professed how much they still loved each other. This is not what he had told me about this conversation. Sooooooo....... another lie that he had been withholding for 16 months comes out. He says he came home because that was what was expected, and he tried to recover the marriage because that was expected.

He says he needs time to think about what he wants. He says he still loves the OW and with me, it was "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" kind of thing for the past year and a half. This amazes me. We had ups and downs, but overall I really thought things were going ok. SF was goood; we did things to please each other. Just Fri, I slipped a love note into his luggage telling him how much I cared for him.

I don't expect much support from MIL. I think she will say to just do what makes you happy. I did talk to OWH today to tell him about the email. His take was, "Well, tell your H ifi he wants OW, to come and get her." He is pretty ffed up with her. Finally, I talked to my SIL. BIL had infidelity in their marriage and I never knew this, but BIL actually moved out for 6 months. I asked her how she was able to recover the M and she gave me the same kinds of things that we had already been doing. I called my IC, got her voice mail, but did not sound very urgent on the phone and she did not call me back.

Amazingly, in spite of everything today, I baked a couple of pies for church dinner, got them delivered, picked up DS15 after sport's practice, fed him (OK cheated and took him to McDonald's), and went back to the school to sign him up for winter sports. I have a pretty bad headache, but otherwise, I think I am ok. I also told DD36 about what is going on. She thinks H has lost his mind and advice was for me to figure out why I am staying in this - because of fear of unknown (at 57, I don't feel like I could start a new life) or because H and I have been married for so many years. Don't know.....

Thanks for the email address. I will send an email to you.

GY, the last thing I want to ever do is to get in the way of your and H's recovery. I don't want to burden you so if you don't want to talk to me about this, I understand perfectly.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 10:56 AM
Last night I prayed really hard before I went to bed and slept well (I have always been an early riser). Yesterday evening, I talked to all kinds of people who care about us. I finally told DS15 about the affair and about what it happening now. he, of course, knew that something was wrong all along, but did not know what it is. I think i will really have to watch him. He is not much of a talker and seemed ok. But, of course, that worries me too. DD36 asked if H had lost his mind. I said that he was really depressed and "lost" and she sure agreed with that. She asked me why I had been staying - ie because of fear or the future or because it had been so many years married and was comfortable? I don't know the answer to that question. I talked to two of H's SILs; neither of whom knew about the A. DS21 is in Iraq and happened to be on computer when I was; so we chatted on line. He was VERY angry at the news. 1) wanted to call OW's command - don't think this would help since she already got an Article 15 punishment for the affair and did not answer his email from Sunday. Both DD36 and DS21 think I should divorce H. Also, if H tries to come back on active duty, I think DS21 will really squawk. His comment was that he did not want H in HIS Army.

I talked to her H on the phone and OW did not tell him about the email either, but came home from work in an unexpextedly happy mood babbling on about the hundreds of emails she had gotten while she had been out last week. She sent me one last night, subjuct line happy? saying that she had receivedH's email, did not answer , never wants to hear from either of us again, that she and H are struggling in their marriage. She cced H on it so techinically she did contact him and let him know that their M is struggling. I sent one back impulsivelyly saying "F... U..., you selfish b....." don;t know if the posts are lost of not, but this is VERY atypical language for me. Can't remember if i posted this or not yesterday (was out of it for most of the day), but when I told OWH's about the email, he said, "Come and get her". She lies to him over everything, he needs O&H and has never gotten it.

Ah well, where I am this morning after that good night's sleep (Thank you, Lord). I have decided to basically write a plan B letter. If H decides he would like to come home, I will have a list of conditions to do that, including more intense therapy than just his PTSD group, consider anti-depressants if medically advisable, continue the transparency (I fould all this mess out from keylogger and reading his emails), commitment to the marriage, attendance at an MB weekend, etc. I will take some time to work on this this morning. If H decides he does not want to come home, I never want to see or talk to him again. I will ask that he identify an IM (one of his brothers or sisters or maybe my brother), he make a list of what things he wants and they arrange for him to get whatever it is.

Well, that's where it stands. Thank you so much for the support I get here. I know several do not read on this forum, but still I thank MelodyLane (her posts are so decisive and this morning, I was thinking "What would ML do in this situation?", Queenie - you have lived the power of prayer and your faith showed me that it is possible to know G-d and have Him present in everyday life. Mark - you have never posted to me, but I have used many of your thoughtful and analytical posts. Goldenyears and Sunflower, thank you for being there. I am sorry that I can't be your "point man". I really, really want the best for the two of you.

After I post this, I will ask the mods to move it over to SAA, where it rightfully belongs.

AM
Posted By: serendipitous Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 10:57 AM
I don't think I've ever posted to you before AM, but I've just read your update and I want you to know that I am thinking of you.

For those of us in recovery it is our worst nightmare, and I m so sorry you are going through this. hug

I know you know this, but it's worth repeating. It is your H who is broken, this is not about you and your worth. Not at all. You are a wonderful, caring, thougtful and loyal woman and you deserve none of this.

Your H is clearly in some sort of crisis, maybe sparked by his mum's illness.

I hope you can sort this out. Please take care of YOU. Make sure you eat, sleep and take some exercise, and look after yourself.

hug
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 11:03 AM
Thank you. The first thing I thought of yesterday was what I had been doing wrong. But you are right. H is the one who is broken.

I hope to make an appt with IC today. I had not gone in a couple of months because I had been doing so well. But I think I'm going to need it.

Thanks again for the post.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 11:41 AM
I just received a call from the school to substitute teach today. H1N1 is making the rounds.

In any case, my intent is to work on a Plan B letter today. I would like to post it for comments later this afternoon.

Thanks to the MB participants for being here for me. Thanks to the mods for moving my thread and changing the name. You guys are the best.

AM
Posted By: barbiecat Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 12:44 PM
I am so sorry to hear about your situation.

It sounds like you have the right instincts going now.

Thinking aout you.

BC
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 12:53 PM
Quote
GY, the last thing I want to ever do is to get in the way of your and H's recovery. I don't want to burden you so if you don't want to talk to me about this, I understand perfectly.

Friends do not desert friends. I cried uncontrollably as I read your response--not for what could happen to me but for the pain you are going through. My eternal optimism regarding my husband and our recovery serves as my personal shield. I cry for you as I would one of my sisters. I am a doer, and I want to fix this for you or make it better; but all I can do is offer my shoulder and my support.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Ah well, where I am this morning after that good night's sleep (Thank you, Lord). I have decided to basically write a plan B letter. If H decides he would like to come home, I will have a list of conditions to do that, including more intense therapy than just his PTSD group, consider anti-depressants if medically advisable, continue the transparency (I fould all this mess out from keylogger and reading his emails), commitment to the marriage, attendance at an MB weekend, etc. I will take some time to work on this this morning. If H decides he does not want to come home, I never want to see or talk to him again. I will ask that he identify an IM (one of his brothers or sisters or maybe my brother), he make a list of what things he wants and they arrange for him to get whatever it is.

AM, I am so sorry this is happening to you. I am thinking about your strategy and wanted to ask you what you think brought this on? What triggered his relapse? I suspect it is traveling alone. Dr. Harley calls traveling alone an "invitation to an affair." And weren't you separated due to deployment when this affair started? Is there a reason he traveled to his MIL's without you? Can you bring me up to speed?
Posted By: sexymamabear Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 02:02 PM
Hello AM,

I've been where you are. I'm so sorry for you.

SMB
Posted By: not2fun Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 02:15 PM
(((((((((((((((AM))))))))))))))))),

I am so completely sorry that you are dealing with this. And so far into R too. You already know this but Plan B is the way to go right now at least until you decide what you WANT to do. Take your time my friend......

Stay strong and know your MB'ers are behind you no matter what you choose to do...

You're in my thoughts and prayers sweetie.......

Not2fun

ps......your WH is a fool..... Total and complete fool
Posted By: stillhere8126 Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 02:35 PM
((AM)) I am so sorry, reading this breaks my heart. Hang in there, my prayers are with you... pray
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 03:50 PM
ArmyMama,

Please know, I am praying for you... and that knothead H of yours too.

God Bless!
Posted By: not2fun Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 04:20 PM
While you ate writing that Plan B letter, take a page from SMB and raise that bar HIGH......YOU deserve so much better than this!!!

hug

Not2dun
Posted By: imanotherone Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 04:22 PM
AM, just so you know, I went through a similiar false recovery about 3 years ago. If I look back on my posts, I could sense something was wrong, just like you. I didn't think there was contact, but in fact, there was. It had rekindled.
My H's A did die after DDay 2, but still I was never able to trust again. Don't know if that will be an issue for you. Sending lots of positive thoughts your way...
Posted By: Pepperband Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 04:35 PM
Quote
He says he needs time to think about what he wants.


Time he's had.
I'd advise you not to offer him anything resembling a time line.
In fact, it's TIME for plan B.

Seriously, he's practically begging you to go plan B.

"I need time to think." ~~~> TRANSLATION ~~~> "I'm thinking about leaving you for OW."

Which is the best time to go plan B.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 04:48 PM
Written by Believer - the original is on my "False Recovery" thread, which I bumped for you.

Quote
Another point -

If we divorce, that's it.

I will not remain your best friend, fix your car, do your errands, or serve Thanksgiving dinner to you and the OP singing happy songs around the holiday table even for the sake of the children. Once you're gone, you are out of my life entirely except on a "need to know" basis about the kids' schedule, and preferably that can be done by e-mail.

If you walk out, then you you need to get a place for kids to visit you, since you will not be hanging around this house evenings and weekends, pretending to yourself that hanging around on a Saturday afternoon and mowing the lawn makes up for the fact you looked for a replacement for your spouse and found one.

You are either with her or you are not. There is no in-between: no e-mails, calls, lunches, dinners, coffee or kiss and grope sessions in parks or hotels or anyplace else with the OP.

A BS incredibly, mind-boggling callous that they actually believe a BS will step aside gracefully, will [censored] him occasionally for old times sakes (or to the female OW, she will expect to keep getting money and having car or household repairs done by BS.

The reason to say this stuff early is that most have the idea of going underground and keeping both.
Posted By: hope3343 Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 05:14 PM
AM, stopping by to check in on you. If you want to talk let me know. My phone wires at night are always "burning".

I understand your feelings about starting over in our 50's. That is one of my biggest struggles. But we are not Methuselan and still have much life kicking in us.

Have you read "Love must be tough" by Dobson. It might fit well in your circumstance. It is based on the Plan B concept with Christian principles.

You and your family are in my prayers. These men don't understand the special life they could have if they embraced it.
Posted By: faithful follower Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 05:22 PM
"I need space", "I need to think", "I love but am not in love with you" are ALL wayward fogspeak. I went through SEVERAL FR's and believe me, AM you do not want the PTSD I have from it. Go directly to plan B, I wish I had.
Posted By: bea16 Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 05:47 PM
AM,

I am so very sorry to hear about your H's relapse into waywardness. You've been through so much and worked hard so hard to find peace and healing. I can only imagine how devastating this must be. Know that I'm praying for strength and wisdom for you.

You seem to feel as though your H might be depressed. While I have no experience with depression arising from PTSD (aside from my own post d-day PTSD, of course), I have way too much experience dealing with depression arising from biological causes. Depression, ADHD and even autism are rampant in H's family. We missed the autism, but H and both kids suffer from depression and ADHD to varying degrees. It requires constant diligence to keep my H on an even keel. His moods fluctuate with the time of year and the resultant stress of those times. His moods also fluctuate depending upon how faithfully he takes his meds. A month ago he was really depressed and it was taking a toll on our M. I finally figured out that he had stopped taking his ADHD meds a month prior for stupid reasons. It turns out that those meds work with his anti-d's to keep his mood stabilized. Sure enough, after only a few days back on his meds, he was a new man.

How is depression connected to waywardness? Based on our experience, I've come to the conclusion that the high from wayward behavior provides partial relief from depression and holds the false hope of even more relief. If your H is indeed depressed, he may be attempting to self-medicate through renewing the A.

While my own inclination would be to kick H to the curb if he did anything like what your H has done, in your case, if your H is depressed and has never done anything other than group counseling, you might attempt to address the depression before going to Plan B. Anti-depressants will help, but they typically take 4-6 weeks to take full effect. To give quicker relief, doctors will sometimes prescribe ADHD meds like adderall to give temporary and fairly quick relief while waiting for the anti-d's to kick in. Then the patient is weaned off the ADHD meds.

I should warn you that there is a risk that too much seratonin and dopamine too quickly can trigger manic behavior (yes, I've experienced this too). Manic behavior is usually reckless behavior and can increase the chance that your H will act on his wayward feelings. If he does go manic, at first he'll seem charming and energetic, but then it will turn creepy, irrational and over the top. A reduction or cessation of the ADHD meds can put a stop to it. I'm not a doctor, so I'm not sure what the odds of mania are. I suspect the odds of mania are far smaller than the odds that your H will rekindle his A if he doesn't get help for his depression.

I'm fearful that if you immediately go to plan B, you'll greatly increase the chance that H and OW will reconnect. The alternative would be to insist on aggressive therapy for his depression and see what effect it has on his wayward mindset. It sounds like you might still have enough leverage to make that happen now before he rekindles the A. If you take this route, be aware that you will be driving the bus. Depressed people often don't know they're depressed. Their feelings seem completely real and valid. It's only after they come out of the depression and look back that they realize how the depression dictated their feelings. As the W, you're in a much better position to determine whether your H is depressed than he is.

Hang in there,

Bea
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 05:53 PM
AM, I don't think I've ever posted to you, but my heart physically lurched when I read your update. Someone else said it and it bears repeating, this is not about you or anything you've done, it's about him being broken.

You deserve so much better than this. Really. First because you are the innocent here and second because you took the chance and tried recovery with this man. I've been married 32 years and been to hell and back with my DH, so I kinda know what you're going through. For him to pull this now is infuriating.

I agree, go straight to Plan B and up the ante on any chance of future recovery. This is your life, not a game where he can play with your emotions based on his pick-of-the-day selfish whims.

((((AM))))
Posted By: PLEASE HELP Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 06:29 PM
HI AM,
So sorry for your pain...I knew it all too well...
It is very possible he is "just" depressed. My XXW suffers with depression and it really is a cruel disease.

When she was depressed she would search for ANYTHING to "make her happy".... new clothes...new chair..new house....new husband (OM)... old husband back (me)....new old husband back (OM again)....ANYTHING..
And a few days weeks or months later(depending on how large the change she made was) she was back searching for that "Happiness Fix" again...

She moved out of state 2 years ago and was sooo happy... and now THINKS we should try again....she must need a another fix...
Although her's is cynical depression and something tells me your H's is situational... I agree with the above poster. It is (his depression) something to look in to....
It may be overcome with some simple meds and some IC...
If he doesn't agree to a least explore that... Plan "B" and set the bar HIGH... you deserve better and you've earned better....

GOoD Luck and Prayers Frank
Posted By: turtlehead Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 07:46 PM
AM,

My heart dropped when I saw the turn things have taken for you. I have enjoyed reading your suggestions and insights to other people, especially armywifie. Your input on these boards is invaluable. You are a treasure. And to see your goofball WH pull a stunt like this... GRR!

I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been well stated; I did want to drop in and give you a cyber hug though.
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 07:50 PM
AM,
Forgot that I have new email with new home.

**edit**
Posted By: catperson Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 08:07 PM
I'm so sorry. All I can think is, go ahead and file the papers. Let him see how it feels to have your spouse not want you any more. I bet he comes running back when you do that.

Jerk.

Self-centered jerk.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 08:58 PM
First, thanks so much for the support frim the MB family. Amazingly, I feel pretty good today. I have a plan and should we end up in divorce, I have supportive folks here as well as friends and family. I have an appt with my IC on Friday and feel good about that.

I will go back and answer the questions that some of the posts contain. Hopefully, I will be making sense.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 09:10 PM
Thanks ML.

I don't think it is the travel that brought this on. H had been feeling low for about a momth (his description). Earlier this month, the keylogger identified that he had gone to porn sites on the 16th and 19th. This was something he had agreed not to be doing. He went to his regular PTSD group on the 20th and was THE topic of discussion there. At the same time, his mother had had a mild stroke and was released from the rehab center on the 27th. SIL was staying with her for a few days. Then someone needed to stay with MIL for a couple of weeks to ensure everything was set for home health care to take over. H went because he 1) had not seen mother since holidays of 2007 (which by the way was smack in the middle of his A - not sure if triggers from that play into this) and 2) he is retired and had the available time. 3) I thought this was a way he could feel valued and admired - both by family and me (man, that really backfired). I did not travel with him because DS15 is in school in a cold place on the east coast and MIL lives in pacific northwest.

I think the posters that talked about depression may have hit on something. Will post more in a little bit. DS15 needs to be picked up from after-school activities. Have hardly started my plan B/D letter yet - have some notes. I told H in a phone call today that it would be coming.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 09:34 PM
I have no intent of offering H a timeline. I plan on finalizing my plan B/D letter, sending it H via email and then calling him to tell him I have completed it. If he does not chose to meet the conditions of return, I will ask him for an intermediary contact that can go between us for D. I think one of his brothers might be a good candidate. I am thinking of giving him until tomorrow to answer me. Not sure if that is good. What do you all think?????

Yes, I understand the translation of the wayward speak. Thanks to MB, I recognized that some of the things he was saying were right out of the wayward script. So, yesterday, I asked him if he had contact with OW. That is when he admitted to sending her an email last Sunday. I never would have asked that question if I had not been reading MB for the past 18 months. Thanks to all.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 09:38 PM
I read Dr. Dobson's book right after D-day at the recommendation of my then IC (before we moved). At that time, I had difficulty applying the principles in it because H and I were already separated by military deployment. I could not understand then how applying plan B at that time would work. Now is a different story, since H and I have been living together - up until last Friday when he left to take care of MIL. Right now, he has a return ticket for Nov 14. We will see if that ticket gets used or not.

AM
Posted By: ChaiLover Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 09:47 PM
AM,

So sorry to hear this. I have been where you are and it stinks. At our age, this is scary stuff so I know how you feel.

I agree that Plan B is in order, but don't give him a warning. Do it and go dark. Do it right the first time. I did not and I will be divorced in two weeks.

Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/04/09 10:04 PM
Bea16,

I know H has had problems with depression, worsening since his first deployment to Iraq in 2003. He was diagnosed PTSD from that deployment as well as a tramatic brain injury (TBI) from two vehicle accidents during convoy operations in April 2003. I guess Plan B is not really a good description for what I am doing. I am offering the choice for H to return home on certain conditions (intensive therapy is one of them) and D. If he chooses to move to OW's city and rekindle the A, that is plan D for me. And according to OWH in conversation yesterday, H is welcome to OW. He is fed up with her lying over everything, past and present.

One of the difficulties is teasing out the effects of the PTSD, TBI and depression/withdrawal after an A. H was very, very depressed during the A and before discovery. He described it as being "lost" and was relieved by discovery. I had no idea what was wrong - thought it was stress at work and master level courses that he was taking, as well as commuting as often as he could between Atlanta (where he was assigned) and Richmond (where DS15 and I were living and I had been assigned). This time, H says he started a few weeks ago. Once again, I really underestimated the severity. H was assuring me that he was ok, but really was not. don't have to tell you that O&H has been a MAJOR issue for us since D-day. Even yesterday, an admission of another lie came out. This has been going on for the entire 17 months, although the bulk of it came spewing out the day before a polygraph at the end of June. I thought then (after I processed all the additional garbage that was the end of it). Nope.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/04/09 10:33 PM
All,

Your comments really warm me and give me strength. Hopefully, I answered all the questions about current status. If not, ask me again.

Here is what I have come up with so far:

If H wants to return to the marriage, he must:
1) return home as scheduled on the 14th. He told me today that he had been offered a position in DC and asked me what I thought. I said that if we divorce, he could go anywhere he wants and take any job he wants. Otherwise, we will be right where we started when we got into this mess - him deploying/being away from home for 3 and 1/2 years out of 6.

2. Commit 100% to the marriage. Yesterday, H said that he had been holding back. For the past 17 months, I thought he had been attempting recovery, but looking back now as we worked through the subcourses, there were little signs that he wasn't. This one is sort of wishy-washy, since I don't really have an empirical measure for it. But some of the other things that follow support this one - maybe subset of this one.

3. Attend an MB weekend. The next one is at the end of Jan. Commit to doing all the assigned tasks at the weekend and for the followup counseling. Follow MB concepts; review on the periodic schedule set up by the MB coaching staff.

4. Continue attending the PTSD support group.

5. Add additional counseling to address the addiction issues of viewing porn (see post from last week) and additction to OW.

6. Persue anti-depressants with Primary Care Physician.

7. Continue transparency with my access to phone, computer (I have passwords and checked whenever the mood suited me. It was an email in his inbox that I read yesterday that let me know all this was going on). Do no erase any email correspondence. (I will continue the keylogger - but he wrote the emails from MIL house and not our home).

8. Never contact OW again under any circumstances.

9. OTHERS?????

If he choses not to accept above, I will persue with D. I think NY is a fault state and I will charge adultery and abandonment. Yesterday. he suggested that he could come home to pick up one car and some of his things. I said, "No way. If he does not return to the M, I never want to see or talk with him again. I do not want to be his friend or confident. H suggested we could be civil to each other, but I think I would rather just cross the street. I would want for us to agree on an intermediary and work the logisitics of the D through IM.

OK, thoughts? things I am off base on? left out????

I am off to compose a loving introduction to this. Will be hard - love bank is overdrawn big time....

AM

Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/05/09 12:14 AM
AM,
If your knucklehead, bonehead H chooses Plan D, I hope there is some way to further harm OW's military career. You know I am a vindictive b................

GY
Posted By: barbiecat Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/05/09 01:13 AM
If this concept of plan B is going to be new to him, he is not going to be able to make a "snap" descision.

Give him time to really think this through. Time without YOU meeting his needs, spending time on yours.

You do not want him coming home out of fear of being alone. You deserve better than that.

Good Luck. I do not think this situation is as dark as you say.

BC
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/05/09 02:15 AM
Thanks for the comments. They are good points.

H is familar with MB because we have read the books and were about 1/2 way through the home study course. It had been difficult to work on the subcourses, and of course, H admitted that he had not been giving 100 percent to the work. He would agree to things such as in the affection subcourse, he agreed to write me a love note twice a week (his idea,not mine, but I liked it) and bring me flowers once a month. He did not follow through until it became an issue when we went back and re-evaulated the courses. His lack of follow through became a love buster for me.

My intent with this letter is to send it to him via email, phone him to tell him it is there and then wair. I was thinking of asking him to reply to me by Sat. That will give him two days to mull over what he really wants. In the meantime, I will not talk or email him and he is away at MIL's house so not meeting his ENs while he mulls things over should not be too hard. I am not sure if a couple of days is really long enough. But with all of H's military deployments, he has a good understanding of what it means to be without his ENs met - that it what got us into this mess. I will be really busy. With the flu hitting the schools hard, I have been asked to substitute teach the next couple of days. Biggest challenge will be finding time to get to the gym - an absolute must.

We spoke on the phone today. He sounded like a different person. Yesterday, he spouted all kinds of wayward talk and his speech was not normal (can't put my finger in it, but sort of monotone, without inflection - I think that;s close). Today, he talked about the effects of addiction and how he was looking for that fantasy "feeling". I think Bea16 really hit on something about depression and using the A or thoughts of the A being a "short term fix for the depression:.

Let me know if you think I am really off base with my thinking.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/05/09 02:25 AM
"If your knucklehead, bonehead H chooses Plan D, I hope there is some way to further harm OW's military career. You know I am a vindictive b................"

Well, if we go to Plan D, I am pretty sure that NY is a fault state and I will definitely name OW. I have a copy of H's military punishment. Last night when we talked DS21 in Iraq wanted to call her command. But she has already received military punishment for the A - loss of 1/2 mo pay for two months, bad evaluation, letter of reprimand from a General officer.

One of the missing posts from last summer had something to the effect of "If during a tornado a house should happen to fall on OW's house, I would happily sing 'Ding, dong, the witch is dead' in my best munchkin impersonation voice" And I would not feel the LEAST bit vindictive about it.

OW is irrelevant, a mere person occupying space on the same planet as I am.

AM

Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/05/09 05:26 AM
One more thing to add to the list:

He must do the heavy lifting here - schedule the sessions with Steve; schedule the marriagebuilder weekend, flights, hotel, accommodations.

He's had no investment in this recovery, therefore nothing to lose.

If he's going to come back, he has to invest in the marriage enough to value it.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/05/09 10:19 AM
Kayla,

This is good. It was so true that I was the one pushing and dragging us to recovery. I had scheduled the MC. I had bought the books and the MB home study program. I was the one suggesting that we work on the sub-courses. H worked on the courses but then did not follow through. He was not totally invested in recovery and was keeping a little place inside where he could go to get warm and fuzzy.

I wish I would have included your comments. I sent the letter last night before I went to bed.

Slept really well again. I am amazed by this.
Tuesday, before i went to sleep or while I was sleeping, I LET this all go. I gave it all to G-d. I recognize that H makes his own choices and I am and will be just fine with or without him. People say this on the forums and I heard it, but did not really understand/believe it until Tues.

It is strange, because on Tues I talked to SIL (BIL's wife). About 10 years ago, there was infidelity in their M. BIL left the house twice, once for a few weeks and later for a few months. Our family had no clue it happened until our own D-day. SIL told me that one evening about 5 mos into the second separation, she let everything go and after that she knew everything would be fine. I await the revealing of G-d's plan for me.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/05/09 10:42 AM
Wowzer. I woke up this morning with a real need to check my email. This was the message I received this morning from OW.

"BS
I want to express my deepest heart felt apology for the pain and hurt I have caused. My actions were inexcusable. I hope that you can find in your soul a way to forgive me for what I have done to you and your family. I continue to strive to earn OWH's trust as well and hope for his forgiveness someday. I ask that you accept this heart felt apology, I'm truly sorry for the damage that I have done, and the pain that I have caused. I pray you regain the peace and love you and your family deserve.
OW"

Right now, I am amazed and at peace. The feelings of hatred that had me in their grip are gone. Just like that.

AM


Posted By: bea16 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/05/09 02:29 PM
AM,

Your last few posts have been encouraging. The e-mail from OW is encouraging too, although I expected her to say something about NC with your H. From your reaction, I take it you think she's sincere.

As to your H's mental state, as you know, you're dealing with something way beyond normal depression. My H has suffered from "normal" depression for most of his life. The cycles would come and go. The depression he experienced which led to the A was vastly more intense that it had ever been before. He became someone I didn't recognize. Actually, I should say he became many people I didn't recognize. I don't mean that he had a multiple personality disorder, it was just that his behavior was so different, so extreme and so variable. People who knew him well but saw him infrequently could instantly tell that something was very wrong with him.

My conclusion is that he was suffering from a mid-life crisis which went from low-level feelings of doubt and dissatisfaction to a full nuclear meltdown based on a variety of factors -- nasty withdrawal from an anti-depressant, addition of adhd meds that made him somewhat manic (although he still takes them now with no negative effects), physical problems including a very bad back, hair loss due to treatments for the back problem (his hair used to be way too important to him), obsessive planning for his 30th high school reunion, lots of travel away from home to follow his favorite high school band which was touring at the time, etc.

Your H's PTSD and the TBI make your situation very complicated and difficult. You will both need the best professional help you can find. One of your conditions is that H needs to see his primary care doctor for anti-depressants. I would strongly urge you to find someone who specializes in treating PTSD. Can the military or the VA help you find the right person?

As I indicated before, you will need to educate yourself, watch him like a hawk and guide his care. You can't expect him to take the initiative. People who are depressed just can't muster the insight and strength to lead that process. To them, their feelings are perfectly normal and valid. Your H can point to any number of reasons why he should feel bad. Given that he now recognizes that he's depressed, he's probably been operating at a lower level of depression for some time now, but something kicked it into a higher gear recently. For my H, his depression has to be pretty bad before he notices it. I've been watching him go through this for so long that I can tell immediately.

I think you're wise to realize that you can't do a typical Plan B with him. Before you make any decisions about your M, you need to see what he's like when he's mentally healthy. He needs you to help get him there, and I suspect it's going to be a long, difficult journey.

Think of it this way, if your H was physically injured and had lost his mobility, you wouldn't expect him to be able to arrange for his care and therapy by himself. You would fully participate because you could easily see how much help he needed and you could see how his physical injury was limiting his ability to help himself. Mental illness is so much harder to address. It's difficult for both the depressed person and the spouse to assess the true condition. In a marital relationship, the depression takes a huge toll and usually causes the healthy spouse to withdraw in order to gain protection from the LB's. Picking the right medication can be hit or miss and takes a while to kick in.

One last thought about the TBI. My own father suffered from depression for years. He always refused to get help and it led to the breakdown of both his career and his second M. Nine years ago he had a severe bleed which he barely survived. The damage from that and a later car accident left permanent brain damage. The weird thing is, however, that he's no longer depressed. He's almost always happy, he's very social and very easy to deal with. The downside is that he's lost his sense of smell, he needs a walker because his balance is so bad, he cannot process complex information, he cannot take initiative for his own care except for a few basics.

I don't know if this helps, but given your situation, it just doesn't seem like the normal MB strategy will get you where you need to go.

Bea
Posted By: catperson Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/05/09 04:29 PM
AM, you said your H was retired. Does that mean he doesn't work any more, anywhere? What does he do all day?
Posted By: hope3343 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/05/09 04:55 PM
AM, checking in with you today. Wondering if OW sent an email to your H also?

Your right about turning it over to God. When I manage to do that it sets you free. You know you don't have any control but you have no need to.

You and your family are in my prayers.
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/05/09 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by bea16
AM,

Your last few posts have been encouraging. The e-mail from OW is encouraging too, although I expected her to say something about NC with your H. From your reaction, I take it you think she's sincere.

As to your H's mental state, as you know, you're dealing with something way beyond normal depression. My H has suffered from "normal" depression for most of his life. The cycles would come and go. The depression he experienced which led to the A was vastly more intense that it had ever been before. He became someone I didn't recognize. Actually, I should say he became many people I didn't recognize. I don't mean that he had a multiple personality disorder, it was just that his behavior was so different, so extreme and so variable. People who knew him well but saw him infrequently could instantly tell that something was very wrong with him.

My conclusion is that he was suffering from a mid-life crisis which went from low-level feelings of doubt and dissatisfaction to a full nuclear meltdown based on a variety of factors -- nasty withdrawal from an anti-depressant, addition of adhd meds that made him somewhat manic (although he still takes them now with no negative effects), physical problems including a very bad back, hair loss due to treatments for the back problem (his hair used to be way too important to him), obsessive planning for his 30th high school reunion, lots of travel away from home to follow his favorite high school band which was touring at the time, etc.

Your H's PTSD and the TBI make your situation very complicated and difficult. You will both need the best professional help you can find. One of your conditions is that H needs to see his primary care doctor for anti-depressants. I would strongly urge you to find someone who specializes in treating PTSD. Can the military or the VA help you find the right person?

As I indicated before, you will need to educate yourself, watch him like a hawk and guide his care. You can't expect him to take the initiative. People who are depressed just can't muster the insight and strength to lead that process. To them, their feelings are perfectly normal and valid. Your H can point to any number of reasons why he should feel bad. Given that he now recognizes that he's depressed, he's probably been operating at a lower level of depression for some time now, but something kicked it into a higher gear recently. For my H, his depression has to be pretty bad before he notices it. I've been watching him go through this for so long that I can tell immediately.

I think you're wise to realize that you can't do a typical Plan B with him. Before you make any decisions about your M, you need to see what he's like when he's mentally healthy. He needs you to help get him there, and I suspect it's going to be a long, difficult journey.

Think of it this way, if your H was physically injured and had lost his mobility, you wouldn't expect him to be able to arrange for his care and therapy by himself. You would fully participate because you could easily see how much help he needed and you could see how his physical injury was limiting his ability to help himself. Mental illness is so much harder to address. It's difficult for both the depressed person and the spouse to assess the true condition. In a marital relationship, the depression takes a huge toll and usually causes the healthy spouse to withdraw in order to gain protection from the LB's. Picking the right medication can be hit or miss and takes a while to kick in.

One last thought about the TBI. My own father suffered from depression for years. He always refused to get help and it led to the breakdown of both his career and his second M. Nine years ago he had a severe bleed which he barely survived. The damage from that and a later car accident left permanent brain damage. The weird thing is, however, that he's no longer depressed. He's almost always happy, he's very social and very easy to deal with. The downside is that he's lost his sense of smell, he needs a walker because his balance is so bad, he cannot process complex information, he cannot take initiative for his own care except for a few basics.

I don't know if this helps, but given your situation, it just doesn't seem like the normal MB strategy will get you where you need to go.

Bea

AM,
If I haven't put it in print before---Bea is one smart cookie. She always gives the best advice, doesn't she?

Hugs,
GY
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: One year ago - 11/05/09 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by black_raven
Would you be willing to trade the car in for another? If you can afford to get rid of things you have that are painful reminders, get rid of them. I got rid of something as stupid as my toaster because I knew he was talking on the phone to OW when I sent FWH out to buy one. Things H bought me during this time went into the trash, were donated, or returned to the store if possible. Not that the absence of things is going to make me forget but it felt gross having those things in my home.

As for rewriting the history of the A, I can only guess that some do it because they see just how ***edit*** there behavior was and want to minimize it as much as possible.


I made my FWH sell "The Car". We now have a nice, new one with the same terms as the old one, and no triggers. He gave me a really nice pea coat for Christmas. It's still hanging in the hall closet - I haven't made up my mind yet whether to Goodwill it or keep it, but cold weather's coming and I'd like to get off the fence. Funny, what we can live with and what we can't.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/06/09 02:19 AM
Hope, thanks for checking in. No, OW did not send a copy of this morning's email to H. On Tuesday she send the one with the subject line Happy? to both of us. The apology she sent only to me. I have not yet responded because I am not sure what to say.

Goldenyears, you are so right. Bea is one smart person and has said many things for me to think about. These were some of the things I had thought about before. If H had lost an arm or leg instead of having depression, PTSD and TBI, would I be responding the same way? He is so, so different from the person I knew before he deployed in 2003. At the same time, I cannot accept him contacting the OW. Many of his changes seemed to occur in the middle of the A, so how much is A, how much PTSD, how much TBI? We have talked about this extensively in counseling and not really found an answer.

Current status today. H has been proceeding with his plan to take another deployment. To me that means he plans to use me as his back up plan. I cannot accept being the choice of last resort.

I have been staying so busy that I really have not had time to think much about this stuff at all. It sorts of feels like all the other times he was gone on military deployment.

AM



Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/07/09 09:09 PM
Lots going on. H has sounded pretty confused the last few days. He spoke with his PTSD group counselor yesterday. The main question C asked was, "Where did H want to be in the future, in 4 years, 6 years etc?" H said that he wanted to be with the family. However, he does not feel certain that he would not hurt the family again in the future. He regrets the person he has become. We still have love for each other, but I don't know where our M will go. I am noto in Plan B - guess I should be, but have not been able to carry it off.

I responded back to OW email. I do think she was sincere. I thanked her for sending it, that it meant a great deal to me to receive it and that I have hope for all of us for future peace.

I am doing ok. I don't feel as though I am operating from a place of fear anymore and regardless of what happens, I will be fine, maybe even fantastic. I met with IC yesterday. It took me more than half the session just to update her on what was going on. All in all, a good session.

After D-day, I was afraid of everything (not like the folks on the other post who feel invincible). Last night, DS15 asked me to take him and friend to school's football playoffs. First thing I did was back our SUV down our narrow, steep driveway (was always worried about dinging it up backing it down the driveway, especially when it is a little icy); then we drove 2+ hours each way during snow on icy roads. I truly enjoyed watching the game sitting by myself (only bad part was our team lost). I KNOW I am ok and will be ok. Life is good and whatever the plan for me is, I know it will be good.

AM
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/07/09 09:22 PM
I would have included in the response to OW, "Please understand, that while I feel you are sincere in this apology, ANY contact with my husband makes this apology meaningless and blatantly insincere. Please change your contact information and close your email account if you truly care about my family."
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/07/09 09:36 PM
I feel comfortable about what I wrote. OW had sent an email the day before stating that she never wanted to hear from either of us again. H used her work email and would always be able to find it, if he chooses.

OWH called H a couple of nights ago, understandably angry. OWH said if H wants OW, he can have her. OWH is tired of her past and present lying. Her email to me came after that phone conversation. Although I think she was sincere when she wrote the email, I have no illusions about anything she might or might not do in the future. She has had multiple A's. And maybe she is working on herself or maybe it is all show for her H. In any case, I wrote what I wrote for me, not her. Make sense?

AM
Posted By: warrioress Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/07/09 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
I feel comfortable about what I wrote. OW had sent an email the day before stating that she never wanted to hear from either of us again. H used her work email and would always be able to find it, if he chooses.

OWH called H a couple of nights ago, understandably angry. OWH said if H wants OW, he can have her. OWH is tired of her past and present lying. Her email to me came after that phone conversation. Although I think she was sincere when she wrote the email, I have no illusions about anything she might or might not do in the future. She has had multiple A's. And maybe she is working on herself or maybe it is all show for her H. In any case, I wrote what I wrote for me, not her. Make sense?

AM
Hello AM,
I've never posted to you before but wanted to say that I totally understand where you are coming from.
I too just experienced a false recovery but I am feeling everyday more and more able to be by myself, if that's what will result. My moments of panic are lessening and my neediness as well. I understand that even though I exposed and the OW told my H that it was over, it wasn't over for him and until HE decides that it's over, it really makes no difference if she or her H try to put pressure on the A.
I am certain that much of what has transpired is due to a lot of emotional baggage that I don't feel either you or I can affect change for our H's. It's their journey and all we can do is be the kind of wife that they want and need, and take the best care of ourselves.
I'm also feeling I cannot do Plan B. My H feels so defeated and powerless, he's likely to simply walk away as he doesn't have any fight in him at the moment. If your H is feeling beaten, I feel Plan B might cause him to succumb to giving up.
I am listening very attentively to my inner compass and what God is telling me deep inside. I hope you to have such a voice to listen to.
I have surrendered my H and my M to God. I do whatever it is I can, to the best of my ability. I am now feeling that almost 1 year of separation, I can make it if I have to.
I would rather reconcile this marriage, but I also know that there is much that has to occur within him and me individually to allow for such changes to take root and to be sustainable.
I support how you feel about your response to the OW.
I have considered recontacting the OW and her H too, but feel that my battle isn't with them...it lies with my H and his inner turmoil. I did the exposure thing..it worked for a while, but at the end of the day, if they contact each other, it's because it's not over for them yet and it needs to play itself out. I don't want an artificial recovery..I certainly don't want to revisit this in the future, if we're still married. So I'd best trust God and let HIM deal with all the forces of the universe to affect the outcome. I'll do what I can but I really don't feel that revisiting the exposure thing will make a sustainable difference at this point.
Stay on course AM. I am proud of your determination and your fearlessness. This speaks loudly. Stay true to yourself and what you know is right. No one else is walking your path. Only God is walking alongside of you.
Blessings,
W
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/07/09 11:06 PM
Warrioress,

You expressed exactly what I am feeling and thinking. I too have given this over to G-d. I pray for H's healing because the battle is within my H. I can't change it; I can't force it one way or another. It was a great feeling of peace when I did this. I am not afraid anymore; I feel confident that my life will be a wonderful one, with or without H.

Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/07/09 11:17 PM
I was struck by this insightful poster on the wall in the high school:

Watch your thoughts for they become your words.
Watch your words for they become your actions.
Watch your actions for they become your habits.
Watch your habits for they become your character.
Watch your character for it becomes your destiny.

written by Frank Outlaw

Posted By: warrioress Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/07/09 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
I was struck by this insightful poster on the wall in the high school:

Watch your thoughts for they become your words.
Watch your words for they become your actions.
Watch your actions for they become your habits.
Watch your habits for they become your character.
Watch your character for it becomes your destiny.

written by Frank Outlaw

Yes, I have seen this before. I am reading an incredible book. You may want to look into it. It's helped me immensely. It's called, The Power of Your Subconscious Mind by Joseph Murphy. Another that I just started is You Are What You Think by David Stoop. Both refer to scripture as a basis for their messages. I have found that I can stay focused on the positive and convey only positive messages in effort to surround myself with positive outcomes.
One of the concerns I have seen is the level of ill-will that betrayed spouses have for their WHs and the OW. I believe that if you put out negative energy and wish them retribution, you shall also bring that upon yourself.
Whatever happens, once I work through the anger, I intend to let it go and ask God to heal them. I believe that they are very miserable and have wrought so much grief and pain to those around them that they are filled with self-loathing and deprication. Praying for their healing and the healing of the OW and OWH marriage would ensue a healing for me, one way or the other.
I am trying to take the high road and both of these books help guide such thoughts.
You may find them empowering.
I know one thing, the road is long and winding and I expect I'll be walking it for a while. I need all the guidance and spiritual support I can get.
We are all spiritual beings living in a human condition.
Take care,
W
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/08/09 01:09 PM
Oh wow, I am crying so hard that I don't know if I can even type this. This morning something mysterious and amazing happened. I have been praying very hard for guidance about what to do; to say the right words; to think the right thoughts; to know God's plan for me.

This morning, I got on the computer, did the usual emails check, read a bunch a jokes from my friends, cleaned up the inbox, etc; checked MB, etc. Then I did a search on divorce. I have an appointment with an attorney Wed. In any case, there were several things stored in the computer history and when I clicked on the next page, out of nowhere the song duet "Somewhere Out There" by Linda Ronstadt and James Ingram started playing over and over. I went back and did this a couple of times. This is not a song on our computer, not one I have been thinking about, or even one that I really remembered.

I went to a music site to look up the lyrics. After I did that, I clicked on play a random song and Kanye West's "Supernova" started to play. After that song, I clicked for another random song and got "Somewhere Out There" again.

Here are the lyrics.
Somewhere Out There duet Linda Ronstadt ļæ½ James Ingram

Somewhere out there,
Beneath the pale blue night,
Someoneļæ½s thinking of me,
And loving me tonight.
Somewhere out there,
Someoneļæ½s saying a prayer,
Then weļæ½ll find one another,
In that big somewhere out there.

(Chorus 1)
And even though I know how very far apart we are,
It helps to think we might be wishing
On the same bright star,
And when the night will start to sing
A lonesome lullaby,
It helps to think weļæ½re sleeping underneath the
Same big sky.

(Chorus 2)
Somewhere out there,
If love can see us through,
Then, weļæ½ll be together,
Somewhere out there, out where dreams, come true.

In the past, I have experienced miracles in my life. Even in/after the A, there have been times when God's hand was directly on H and me (but then we kept messing it up). I think I may have posted a couple of instances on Hope's thread and maybe some other places. I don't know if those are among the posts that have been lost.

Right now, I don't know what to make of this - only that it is mysterious and amazing and warms my heart.


AM
Posted By: staytogether Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/08/09 02:07 PM
Just caught up hug
Posted By: staytogether Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/08/09 02:11 PM
ANd again - another co[ple of posts since my hug.

Not sure whether you were following my encounters before everything disappeared.

It certainly seems that when you open up and listen a message of reassurance or guidance is there for us

pray
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/08/09 09:31 PM
I am amazed by your strength. You continue to be my "point man" in many ways. If you can handle what you are going through with such dignity, I can handle this upcoming d-day without falling apart. Many hugs.
GY
Posted By: Vittoria Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/09/09 02:10 AM
Armymama,
As someone else said, my gut dropped when I read the title of this thread. I've just caught up with your sitch ..... I am so sorry for this horrible turn in your R.

Your strength is admirable. You are in good company with that one, there are many strong women here.
My sitch has been no where close to theirs but I have gained strength through their words, and yours.

hug hug hug


Quote
Right now, I don't know what to make of this - only that it is mysterious and amazing and warms my heart.
pray

And thats' the spirit of G-d working in your life. Sometimes he just NEEDS us to KNOW that he is THERE....Protecting us.
Posted By: armywifie Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/09/09 05:19 AM
(((((((((AM)))))))))

pray
Posted By: warrioress Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/09/09 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
Oh wow, I am crying so hard that I don't know if I can even type this. This morning something mysterious and amazing happened. I have been praying very hard for guidance about what to do; to say the right words; to think the right thoughts; to know God's plan for me.

This morning, I got on the computer, did the usual emails check, read a bunch a jokes from my friends, cleaned up the inbox, etc; checked MB, etc. Then I did a search on divorce. I have an appointment with an attorney Wed. In any case, there were several things stored in the computer history and when I clicked on the next page, out of nowhere the song duet "Somewhere Out There" by Linda Ronstadt and James Ingram started playing over and over. I went back and did this a couple of times. This is not a song on our computer, not one I have been thinking about, or even one that I really remembered.

I went to a music site to look up the lyrics. After I did that, I clicked on play a random song and Kanye West's "Supernova" started to play. After that song, I clicked for another random song and got "Somewhere Out There" again.

Here are the lyrics.
Somewhere Out There duet Linda Ronstadt ļæ½ James Ingram

Somewhere out there,
Beneath the pale blue night,
Someoneļæ½s thinking of me,
And loving me tonight.
Somewhere out there,
Someoneļæ½s saying a prayer,
Then weļæ½ll find one another,
In that big somewhere out there.

(Chorus 1)
And even though I know how very far apart we are,
It helps to think we might be wishing
On the same bright star,
And when the night will start to sing
A lonesome lullaby,
It helps to think weļæ½re sleeping underneath the
Same big sky.

(Chorus 2)
Somewhere out there,
If love can see us through,
Then, weļæ½ll be together,
Somewhere out there, out where dreams, come true.

In the past, I have experienced miracles in my life. Even in/after the A, there have been times when God's hand was directly on H and me (but then we kept messing it up). I think I may have posted a couple of instances on Hope's thread and maybe some other places. I don't know if those are among the posts that have been lost.

Right now, I don't know what to make of this - only that it is mysterious and amazing and warms my heart.


AM

AM, this is what I call a "Godwink." Essentially, it's God winking at you to let you know that He's there, paying attention to you and nurturing you. It's one of those healing moments that you've been praying for. It arrived, just like you knew it would. Don't doubt it for a minute. Cling to it with gratitude. You know down deep in your heart what it means...there's no reason for you to question it...the answer is already there. Trust it.
You are definitely on the right path...stay the course. Keep praying and stay true.
Blessings,
W
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/09/09 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Oh wow, I am crying so hard that I don't know if I can even type this. This morning something mysterious and amazing happened. I have been praying very hard for guidance about what to do; to say the right words; to think the right thoughts; to know God's plan for me.

This morning, I got on the computer, did the usual emails check, read a bunch a jokes from my friends, cleaned up the inbox, etc; checked MB, etc. Then I did a search on divorce. I have an appointment with an attorney Wed. In any case, there were several things stored in the computer history and when I clicked on the next page, out of nowhere the song duet "Somewhere Out There" by Linda Ronstadt and James Ingram started playing over and over. I went back and did this a couple of times. This is not a song on our computer, not one I have been thinking about, or even one that I really remembered.

I went to a music site to look up the lyrics. After I did that, I clicked on play a random song and Kanye West's "Supernova" started to play. After that song, I clicked for another random song and got "Somewhere Out There" again.

Here are the lyrics.
Somewhere Out There duet Linda Ronstadt ļæ½ James Ingram

Somewhere out there,
Beneath the pale blue night,
Someoneļæ½s thinking of me,
And loving me tonight.
Somewhere out there,
Someoneļæ½s saying a prayer,
Then weļæ½ll find one another,
In that big somewhere out there.

(Chorus 1)
And even though I know how very far apart we are,
It helps to think we might be wishing
On the same bright star,
And when the night will start to sing
A lonesome lullaby,
It helps to think weļæ½re sleeping underneath the
Same big sky.

(Chorus 2)
Somewhere out there,
If love can see us through,
Then, weļæ½ll be together,
Somewhere out there, out where dreams, come true.

In the past, I have experienced miracles in my life. Even in/after the A, there have been times when God's hand was directly on H and me (but then we kept messing it up). I think I may have posted a couple of instances on Hope's thread and maybe some other places. I don't know if those are among the posts that have been lost.

Right now, I don't know what to make of this - only that it is mysterious and amazing and warms my heart.


AM

AM,

First, let me just say how terribly sorry I am for what you are currently going through...

Next, I hope that I am just misreading your above post, but are you saying that those songs came from your computer's history? Or is it possible that they did? It pains me a lot to make this post, and I debated about not saying anything, but I reasoned that truth/reality is always best...My fear is that those songs were in your computer's history because of WH's listening to them as he might feel they pertain to OW/the affair - Which is GAG ME information to share for certain, but sadly since I myself am a FWS, I know all too well how immature and ridiculous that waywards are regarding songs and the OP...How they listen to the same ones over and over to continue to bath themselves in the sick fantasy...So when I see the words to "Somewhere Out There" mentioned in relation to a situation with a WS, well, I just have a different take on it...Additionally, in light of what has gone on in your recent history with WH, the lyrics to Supernova have a major wayward ring to them...Here they are:

Quote
SUPERNOVA

[Mr Hudson]
Chorus:
And I feel like taking off
Let me be your supernova
Before you make the biggest mistake of your life
Just give me the chance to get it right


Verse 1:
They got it all, they got the things I thought I wanted
but I can't afford to fake any more,
to live this facade and this smile as the warm champagne pours.
out on the lawn they pretend we're having tons of fun
in this world where we don't belong.
some bloke on the lawn,
is she thinking of me, does she forget what we once had?


Chorus:
And I feel like taking off
Let me be your supernova
Before you make the biggest mistake of your life
Just give me the chance to get it right get it right

[Kanye West]
Verse 2:
Oh they got it all you can see they got it all
They got the cars the boat and the beautiful house by the shore
And you know thereļæ½s more
But I canļæ½t take another minute of yļæ½all
He wants his kids and the dog
He wants his breakfast in bed
Heļæ½s got his trust fund saved
Not a worry in his head
Heļæ½s not you or me
I wanna break up the scene and see you running back to me

Chorus:
Coz I feel like taking off
Let me be your supernova
Before you make the biggest mistake of your life
Just give me a chance to get it right get it right
Yeah I feel like taking off
Let me be your supernova tonight
Before you make the biggest mistake of your life
Just give me a chance to get it right get it right

[Mr Hudson]
Youļæ½ve got it wrong if you say our love is gone
Youļæ½ve got it wrong if you say our love is gone

[Mr Hudson & Kanye West]
Youļæ½ve got it wrong if you say our love is gone
Youļæ½ve got it wrong if you say our love is gone

[Mr Hudson]
Youļæ½ve got it wrong if you say our love is gone
(repeats in the background)

[Kanye West]
Yeah I feel like taking off
Let me be your supernova
Before you make the biggest mistake of your life
Just give me a chance to get it right get it right

[Mr Hudson & Kanye West]
Yeah I feel like taking off
Let me be your supernova tonight
Before you make the biggest mistake of your life
Just give me the chance to get it right get it right

Gosh, I really do hate to rain on any good feelings that you are having right now - or take away the feeling of a Godly miracle...Still could be considered Godly though, as I am certain that God wants your eyes wide open to the truth of what you are facing - being armed with the truth is the BEST thing for any of us...

Again, I hope I have misunderstood your post, and I apologize if I've upset you in any way...AM, you will remain in my prayers...(((((AM)))))

Mrs. W

Posted By: TravelMonkey Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/09/09 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by warrioress
Originally Posted by armymama
there were several things stored in the computer history and when I clicked on the next page, out of nowhere the song duet "Somewhere Out There" by Linda Ronstadt and James Ingram started playing over and over. I went back and did this a couple of times. This is not a song on our computer, not one I have been thinking about, or even one that I really remembered.

AM

AM, this is what I call a "Godwink." Essentially, it's God winking at you to let you know that He's there, paying attention to you and nurturing you. It's one of those healing moments that you've been praying for. It arrived, just like you knew it would. Don't doubt it for a minute. Cling to it with gratitude. You know down deep in your heart what it means...there's no reason for you to question it...the answer is already there. Trust it.
You are definitely on the right path...stay the course. Keep praying and stay true.
Blessings,
W


A few weeks back, I was so upset that I was contemplating a semi B even though Steve had told me that this would not work. Driving to work, I caught up with a lorry owned by a famous UK department store. It was displaying it's latest advertising slogan, which I hadn't seen before. The slogan is:

Plan A........ Because there is no Plan B

Spooky or what?
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/09/09 03:21 PM
AM,

Another thing I wanted to mention...I've noticed a couple of times you have suggested that you want your WH to be in charge of setting up an intermediary - ACK! Am I the only one that sees this as a bad idea? Having an intermediary is about protecting YOU from hurt and wayward drama - it is a boundary of yours - boundaries are like fences that we build to protect ourselves - I think it very unwise to trust a WH to do any protecting of you, KWIM? Finding and putting an IM in place needs to be done by you, imo...It is for your protection, and I think that you are the most qualified to make decisions regarding that...Wouldn't you agree?

Mrs. W
Posted By: Mulan Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/09/09 04:33 PM
To follow on what Mrs. W said, here is an old MB post on boundaries:

A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.
Mulan
Posted By: black_raven Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/09/09 05:45 PM
Sorry to read the latest am. Not much to add other than another hug
Posted By: armywifie Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/09/09 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Mulan
To follow on what Mrs. W said, here is an old MB post on boundaries:

A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.
Mulan

This post meant a lot to me when you posted it on my thread. Thanks Mulan. You helped me build my castle walls and now my H is the one begging me to recover. You will be fine AM, with or without your H. I discovered that about myself when I moved to plan B/D. Now that I know I can do fine on my own, I dont feel like I can take H back so easily.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/10/09 12:12 AM
Mrswondering,

Thanks for the heads up. I am fair to middling in computer spying - have had a year and a half to study up on it. From looking at the keylogger (how I found out he started looking at porn in mid-Oct) and the computer history (I was in the computer history when the song started playing, but there were no music sites), I am fairly certain that H was not listening to the song and that it was not a file anywhere on the computer. In any case, I still have not figured out what it means.

I was not asking WH to select an IM. I gave him two names to choose from, either one would be all right with me.

AM

Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/10/09 12:21 AM
Thanks Mulan,

The topic of your post and boundries is exactly the realization that I had last week. Even though I knew it in my head, I was still trying to get H to stop lying, to be fully commited to the M, etc. I finally felt as though I was not afraid anymore. If H continues to lie, attempt contact with OW (she does not want contact from H - at least not this week), does not want to commit to the M, I can remove myself and be just fine - maybe even fabulous.

AM
Posted By: black_raven Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/10/09 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
I can remove myself and be just fine - maybe even fabulous.

You already are fabulous. wink
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/10/09 01:23 AM
An update. This morning when getting blood drawn, I saw H's PTSD group counselor in the clinic. We chatted a little and I filled him in on things from my perspective. He asked how I was and I said I was fine because no matter what happens with H and me, I am blessed. I told him about all the conditions I sent to H last week and C nodded pretty emphatically, especially to the requirement that H have individual counseling and talk to his primary care doc (someone asked about this earlier - H's primary care doc is at a VA clinic and is more versed in PTSD than the average doc) about anti-depressants.

This afternoon, I did things that I needed to do to get ready for winter; getting the lawn mower away, the snow blower out and ready to go, etc. These are all things I used to rely on H to do. I can do all these things - no problem. Whatever happens, I can take care of all of it and will be ok.

AM
Posted By: not2fun Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/10/09 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
- maybe even fabulous


ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!........of this, I have no doubts...... flirt


Not2fun
Posted By: hope3343 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/10/09 04:12 AM
Hey AM, just checking in on you. You sound stronger. you are on fabulous lady. We forget that and it gets buried in all of this.

Keep turning this over to God, he has a plan for us. We just need to be patient. hugs.
Posted By: serendipitous Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/10/09 10:21 AM
You are doing amazingly well AM.

Wow, there are some very strong and resilient women on these MB forums.

I just know you're going to be better than "just fine". You will be fabulous, and you know what, this inner strength you have found will also be noticed by your WH and will make you very attractive to him. (Just a little bonus for you).

He really does need to sort his head out first because it seems obvious that he is a little messed up at the moment. I hope he can see that thse issues need to be addressed and then can want to address them.

You have much more strength and power in this relationship now and I believe that whatever happens you'll have a fantastic future ahead of you.

hug
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/10/09 07:41 PM
Good for you! You are the strong woman I knew you were!
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/11/09 02:15 PM
Update: H says he made a decision. He said if he did not get to back on active duty that would be a disappointment, but if he lost me it would break his heart. So, right now his plan is to return on Sat as originally planned. He withdrew his name from the nomination to return on active duty to work for one of the generals. He has agreed to do everything on my list. I canceled my appt with the attorney for today. So I guess we will go from here.

I am feeling ok, but I am still not sure I want him back. We have been hacking away at this time since April 2008 and I sort of like the peace this week of him being away. I have not really had any triggers. Even that thread about the email exchange at the university does not upset me, I just view it as the kinds of things waywards do to get the next high, oblivious to the destructiono around them.

Still waiting to know the significance of Sunday's song. New Year's 2000, I prayed for patience. What a mistake that was. I hope I get an answer soon.

AM

Posted By: MarriedForever Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/11/09 03:18 PM
am ~ I have not read this whole thread but skimmed through...I went through a gnarly false recovery, and I am terribly sorry you are going through one as well.

A few things from someone who has BTDT:

~BOUNDARIES are your best friend right now. It helps tremendously to tell a WS who wants to recover, not: "You better do this", but rather: "If (fill in the blank) does (or does not) happen, I will (fill in the blank with a consequence)." Remember this and it will save you a lot of turmoil and questioning of yourself.

~As part of your Boundaries, use Steve Harley as your counselor. We wasted money on a "really good" MC and now we are back to doing the MB program. We also used him as an IC and while the EMDR did help with my PTSD, I don't think it helped H with anything.

~Remember that everytime YOU back down on any of your boundaries or allow things that you aren't comfortable with and/or cause resentment, you will lose some of your love for your H. Protect yourself from this.

~Continue to be that lighthouse...because the fog will come and go. Be steadfast in the kind of M you want and the type of W you want to be, and command nothing less.

Good luck to you...this is hard stuff. I wish you the best.

<P.S. I HIGHLY, HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend both "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson and "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend, especially for someone who has been through a FR. Go get them today.>
Posted By: Dealan-de Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/11/09 03:32 PM
((((((((Armymama)))))))))

>New Year's 2000, I prayed for patience. What a mistake that was.

I totally understand this. Sending you love.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/11/09 03:45 PM
Wow!

Nice post MF.
hurray
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/11/09 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Wow!

Nice post MF.
hurray


Thanks. I figure if I have gone through all of this, it better not be in vain. I've learned so much and through my experience, hope that I can help others. This stuff is so incredibly HARD.
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/11/09 03:58 PM
Quote
I am feeling ok, but I am still not sure I want him back. We have been hacking away at this time since April 2008 and I sort of like the peace this week of him being away.


I can understand your hesitation after all this time of trying to recover. The ball is now in his court. Let's see if he becomes the protector in this recovery. You deserve the very best.


Quote
He said if he did not get to back on active duty that would be a disappointment, but if he lost me it would break his heart.


This is a good beginning in my humble estimation.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/11/09 04:03 PM
I think that this:

Quote
~Remember that everytime YOU back down on any of your boundaries or allow things that you aren't comfortable with and/or cause resentment, you will lose some of your love for your H. Protect yourself from this.


... is such an important concept and where so many BSs go wrong.

This "backing down" is usually an emotional-fear-insecurity-based reaction, devoid of "The Big Picture".
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/11/09 05:00 PM
I understand the comments about boundries. H has my list of requirements for his return and has agreed to them. I guess I am not certain if he will talk the talk long enough to get home and then refuse to walk the walk. He has had a habit of saying he would do something and then not do it. I don't feel as though I am in a place of fear any more. Reference the big picture, I know my life can be wonderful without H; at this point I don't know if it can be wonderful with H.

Very confusing right now.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/12/09 11:05 PM
Today, I told DS15 that H wants to return home Sat, as originally planned. I explained that I have given H a list of things that he needs to do if he is to return home and that H has agreed to do all of them. DS's only comment was that he looks at his dad a different way now. All I oculd do is agree. H has a HUGE amount of work ahead of him. We will see if he is up to it. After all, it is actions not words. So far, H's actions have been hurtful to all.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/13/09 12:43 PM
Good luck on Saturday. I know how anxious you must be about H's return. I just hope he has the slightest inkling how lucky he is that you're allowing him this repeated chance at making this M work. From now on, your H should spend every minute of the day being a major "suck up" (as I used to hate hearing my students say!!!). The problem with that is that you never know what his depression will do to his good intentions.

Bless you, my dear friend.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/14/09 12:41 PM
GY,

Thanks for the positive thoughts. Right now, I don't see H being a major "suck up" as you say. He has agreed to do everything on the list - the first one was commit to the M 100%, so maybe that covers it.

I am feeling very cautious. He said that was understandable. But he wants me as well as him to commit 100% to the M. That is a little hard to do right now. I keep coming back to the thought that if OW had responded to H's email differently, we would not even be having a conversation. And I can't be the "backup plan" or "second best" (during the A, he told OW several times that being married to me was second best - yeah, I know they ALL say this kind of thing).

Everyone around me was of the opinion that I should just divorce him. My brother's big comment was "fool me one, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me". But brother did understand when I said that I was not ready to D.

My prayer for today is to get in the right frame of mind to pick up H at the airport this evening. I am not even really sure what the right frame of mind is.

AM
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/14/09 12:52 PM
He's in no place to ask you to commit to anything.

And you're right about you being his back-up plan - and now he wants to demand you commit 100% too - before you've been able to see actions long enough to know he's committed 100%.

Sorry buster. He had your 100% through this last false recovery; now he's shown his true nature, he's going to have to demonstrate 100% commitment without assurance that you'll take him back. That's the only way you'll know you're never going to go through a false recovery again.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/14/09 04:56 PM
When we got into real recovery after our FR, I remember telling myself "It's going to be hard,but I am going to be a W that he WANTS to be married to...I am going to be the BEST D*MN wife he could ever have imagined...because if we don't make it, it's going to be MY decision, not his!".

And it's true that feelings follow actions...I didn't FEEL that way at the time and had to force myself, but it's paid off. He's Plan A'ing ME now and my feelings about him and our M are getting better and better.


Posted By: Mulan Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/14/09 04:59 PM
Inform WH that you will commit 100% to a marriage when you have a HUSBAND that you can commit to.

You are waiting to see if he is really your HUSBAND or just somebody who is still trying to weasel both a a wife and girlfriends.

If/when your HUSBAND comes back, you will commit to him and him only.

And you have no doubt your HUSBAND would be more than happy to prove to you that that's who he is.

If he throws a tantrum over this, then you just got your answer. DO NOT back down over this!
Mulan
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/14/09 06:24 PM
MarriedForever,

Thanks. This sounds like MB advice to me. One of the things on my list is to follow MB principles. A problem, fairly well documented on my thread before the crash, was that I kept bringing up the A. I did this because of the trickle truth from H. It was a terrible recurring cycle. H said he felt he was always on pins and needles waiting for me to bring up the A. And I was always waiting for the reveal of the next lie, which seemed to come every few weeks.

What is different now? I am not afraid anymore. I can live with or without H. I will wait and see what he does with those things I am requiring him to do. If he does not do them, I will D - without hesitation. In the meantime, I will follow MB principles: avoid LBs and meet his ENs, even if I don't really feel like it.


AM
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/14/09 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
What is different now? I am not afraid anymore. I can live with or without H.

This is your power. Now you can see things with a clear eye, unafraid.
hurray
Posted By: mindshare Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/15/09 07:22 AM
Sorry AM but I don't believe you. I think you are still operating from a standpoint of fear. You have been here for a very long time and for you to put up with what WH has just dished out is a major disappointment. Sorry to be harsh but I cannot believe you are subjecting yourself to being second best. I'm not going to candy coat it... I think that is exactly what you are doing. You can hide behind MB principles (the ones that suit you) all you want but for you to allow him to guilt you into feeling like you haven't done enough is completely perposterous!!!

Sorry to be so harsh because I know your pain all to well but you need to seriously realize that you are amazing and deserve so much more out of life!!

Mindshare
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/15/09 12:44 PM
Mindshare,

Thanks for posting. You are right. I have been here a very long time. And there has been disappointment after disappointment. You are among the majority that think I should have gone directly to D. Friends and family, to include our children, all think I should have gone right to D.

And you are right, I do deserve so much more out of life. I am a treasure and deserve to be treated that way. I just am not ready to give up and D. H and I have many, many good years behind us. And if it were not for H's experiences in Iraq, I am quite sure I would have been out of M long ago. I keep coming back to the question, If he had returned without an arm or leg, would I be treating all this the same way? I don't think so. PTSD is such an insidious, invisible thing. I still don't know as much as I should about it.

I don't know if H will be up to an MB type of R and be fully on board now. If he isn't, I will leave to protect myself and family. The difference now is that I don't FEEL afraid; I don't feel desperate; and I have let go of the pain. THAT is amazing to me.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/15/09 02:20 PM
Quote
I don't know if H will be up to an MB type of R and be fully on board now. If he isn't, I will leave to protect myself and family. The difference now is that I don't FEEL afraid; I don't feel desperate; and I have let go of the pain. THAT is amazing to me.

I believe every word of the above declaration, and I am so happy that you now have a personal peace. I have followed your story since last February, and neither your words nor the tone of your postings lately have the desperation that so many of us have as we try to come to grips with what has been thrust upon us. I sense your peace.

Golden
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/15/09 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
I don't feel desperate; and I have let go of the pain. THAT is amazing to me.

Remember this ... You (due to your circumstances) should NEVER plan A ever again.

NEVER

If you find yourself thinking about plan A ... recognize those thoughts as your own foggy mind. You have ALREADY been the lighthouse. You have ALREADY shown yourself to have awesome potential as an attractive and loyal wife. You have ALREADY proven your willingness to forgive and recover.

Your WH has seen how much he will be missing out on if he keeps making the wayward choices.

It is no longer up to you to "prove yourself".
It's up to WH to prove HIS worthiness.


Plan A is forever off the table.
Posted By: mindshare Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/15/09 04:55 PM
AM,

Pep is right on as usual! Do NOT Plan A! He needs to do the heavy lifting. You deserve it.

Thanks for taking my previous post constructively. I kept thinking about going back and removing it because I didn't want to hurt you but for some reason I just couldn't do it. I thought you needed to see it.

You are a great part of the MB family and I always enjoy your posts to others. You are clearly a very intelligent and caring person. Don't lost sight of yourself and what you deserve out of life. You have given WH an amazing gift of recovery and forgiveness and he has squandered it.

I'm still not sure I'm convinced about the fear not being a factor but I'll have to take your word for it.

Mindshare
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/15/09 05:13 PM
FEAR in this sense can be different than the ORIGINAL Fear a BS feels ~ THAT fear for am may sincerely be gone.

What normally takes it's place is a different sort of fear, not as deep as the Original Fear ~ it's a fear of giving up the dream of being married forever...giving up the dream of growing old with our spouse. It's still fear but different from the original driving fear. armymama may be over the Original Fear and now onto the Second Fear, which does not feel as suffocating.

This is a good place to be, IMHO. It allows the BS to move fromm the desperation of Plan A'ing too long and into a more sensible acting out of the MB principles.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/17/09 12:02 AM
All,

Thanks for checking in with me. H came back home from MIL Sat evening as scheduled. We went to chuch, had brunch out and a nice afternoon date at a sporting event yesterday. We did not discuss his trip at all until this morning. I had had a nightmare last night about H emailing OW. It was like a movie with 2 endings - one in which he asked OW to be with him in her city and the other was that he told her he would off me for the insurance and marry her on a beach in Bangkok (have never been there - don't even know if Bankok has beaches). I really hate these dreams.

In any case, this AM I asked H some questions about his state of mind when he left for his trip, why he decided to return home, his mother's response to his actions. H kept returning to the cause of his depression as my being unable to get over the A. I kept coming back to an inability to get over the A because of his trickle truth. H said I had asked the same questions over and over and I responded with that he kept giving me new information every 4-6 weeks, to include last week. H seemed to believe he had told me everything truthfully last fall, and was really thoughtful when I told him that there was a great deal that only came out with the polygraph and even something else week before last. I think he does not remember half this stuff. He did not even recall conversations we had less than 2 weeks ago. The polygraph last summer backed up some specifics of his memory loss. This has always been sticky for me - what did he lie about and what did he not remember.

I will see if he follows through with things. He has his PTSD group tommorrow and Doc appt Wed to talk about anti-depressants. So that's a start. My list is long though and he is only just starting.

MarriedForever, I think I already mourned the vision I had had of our marriage. I do have a vision for recovery and a different marriage - one with this period of time as a scar and not a bleeding wound. If it does not occur, I am ok with that. I think I will find some hot ski bum 2/3 my age (just joking).

GY, I have been thinking about you. You are wise and full of wonderful counsel. I will continue thinking about you as you work through your potential 1 year dates. I think if you plan for them, they are not near as bad as the worry of them.

AM
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/17/09 02:56 PM
If your H is truly depressed, ADs can help tremendously and the ease of your recovery may improve.

Has your H looked into EMDR for his PTSD? It helped me with mine.

Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/17/09 08:11 PM
I
Quote
n any case, this AM I asked H some questions about his state of mind when he left for his trip, why he decided to return home, his mother's response to his actions. H kept returning to the cause of his depression as my being unable to get over the A. I kept coming back to an inability to get over the A because of his trickle truth. H said I had asked the same questions over and over and I responded with that he kept giving me new information every 4-6 weeks, to include last week. H seemed to believe he had told me everything truthfully last fall, and was really thoughtful when I told him that there was a great deal that only came out with the polygraph and even something else week before last. I think he does not remember half this stuff. He did not even recall conversations we had less than 2 weeks ago. The polygraph last summer backed up some specifics of his memory loss. This has always been sticky for me - what did he lie about and what did he not remember.

AM,
I cannot give you advice because your situation has recently veered way off the path I'm traveling. Maybe something I say about how I handle things will spark an idea with you. I'm sure you remember that in August Dr. Harley advised me to stop bringing the affair up. That has been the hardest thing for me to do, especially when triggers cause me to go ballistic on the inside. I fight the inclination to start the interrogation quite often. You know that I have the big picture as well as many, many details. Do I have them all? Probably not. Did he conveniently "forget" some things when I questioned him until mid-August? I'll never know. I'll forever wonder about some of the things. In fact, I'm sure that my not knowing will keep my wound a little sensitive forever; but I've come to the conclusion that what I do know is so much more than what I do not know. If I didn't execute Plan D over what I do know, then I may just have to accept that there are some forever questions that I'll have to learn how to deal with.

My FWH's activities now are a total open book. He treats me like a queen--as he should have always done. He looks at me sometimes and tears up because of the guilt he bears. I wanted to stay married and I wanted to help him become the man he used to be. Any reference I make to the affair and any sadness or reflectiveness he notes in my demeanor seems to drive a stake through his heart. Do I need more details or more answers? I feel like I do sometimes, but most of the time I look at the big picture and stifle the questions. I want my marriage and I want the life I experience nine days out of ten. Even recently, when I had a question about honesty and openness in the at-home study and the affair, Dr. Harley warned me to be very careful of rehashing because it sets both of us back to the beginning. I so wanted Dr. Harley to back me in my quest to know it all, but he stands firm.

Your husband's PTSD and his depression have made him do and say terrible things within the last three weeks. I know you have come to a peace about your future, but it is also evident that you want the marriage and the husband of long ago. I pray that these efforts you are making will give you continued peace.

Hugs!!!

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/17/09 08:29 PM
Thanks, GY. You are very wise. I wish I had done what you are doing. You (and Dr. Harley, of course) are so right. Every time, I brought something about the A up (which I ended up doing compusively because I felt he was still lying), it set us both back. And the past three weeks set us far, far back. I know there are posters here on MB that have far larger holes in their story than I do. I certainly have the big picture of the A and understand (I think) what happened the past few weeks. I guess I am not sure how coouples revover the M without full H&O. At the same time, I certainly do not ever want to be the source of H's pain. He has to find a way to get to forgiveness for himself. I think that will be the toughest thing.

Today is better again. H went to his PTSD group and scheduled both an MC appt for the two of us as well as an appt with the VA mental health provider who can prescribe anti-depressants. We shall see where it goes from here. Once again, H sounds like an entirely different person from how he sounded when he was gone. I think something helpful I can do is track his bouts of depression on a calendar and look for any patterns there might be.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/18/09 11:49 AM
I hope your day is good.

GY
Posted By: barbiecat Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/18/09 12:33 PM
This is an excellent idea.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/20/09 11:09 AM
Yesterday was a down one. Tues. H and I met with DS15's teachers after grades came out. DS15's grades are tanking. Yesterday, he did a homework assignment (after I nagged him) and left it on the kitchen counter when he went to school. That set the tone for the day. H and I were keeping our verbal distance (back to talking mostly about the weather). We ran a few errands and had lunch. Mostly, I was down without a specific reason.

We watched some tv, which of course, had a thread of infidelity in it. I am not really affected by that stuff anymore. Didn't really even notice at the time. But H did, because at bedtime, he mentioned what a blank he had been. That, of course, started the conversation in a place I did not want to go. In any case, I mentioned that he used to do such loving things in our marriage. He said he did not know when he stopped. I said it was when the A started and when the A ended, he did not return to doing those kind things. I suggested that maybe he did not want to betray the OW by doing nice things for me. He said he did not think that to be true. Who knows?

I have not brought up doing any MB subcourses. So far, H has made medical and counseling appointment for himself and us. I think I will ask him to check the list of stuff I needed him to do before he returned home. I have a feeling he does not remember half of what is on it.

AM

Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/20/09 01:11 PM
AM,
I'm glad to hear something from you. I've been concerned for you and anxious to hear.

Hopefully, your H will realize now that he has to start doing nice things for you and not just occasionally. I think reminding him of the list you sent him before his return would be the wise thing to do.

God bless!

GY
Posted By: bea16 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/20/09 03:03 PM
AM,

I've been following your situation and have been thinking about you quite a bit. As I've said (I think . . . I've tried to post to you several times recently, but I haven't been able to finish them before the kids come home and need the computer), your H's TBI, depression and PTSD may mean that the typical Plan A, Plan B and Plan D won't work for you.

First, your H's depression. Having lived for 16+ years with someone who struggles with depression, I am acutely aware of the devastating effects of depression on a M. To put it in MB concepts, when my H is depressed, he is unable to meet my EN's (particularly conversation, affection, domestic support, family support), so he cannot make deposits into my LB. At the same time, his depression makes him much more likely to LB, which results in lots of withdrawals from the LB. This can go on for months at a time.

I used to respond to this situation by withdrawing. Now, having learned all about depression and how it can be treated, when I see H slipping into his depression, I take action. I make sure he takes his meds and I make sure he sees his doctors. It makes me feel more like his mother than his wife at times, and it is exhausting, but there is no other way for us.

Your recent posts indicate that you're on this path. I just want to urge you to learn everything you can about depression. Observe your H carefully, make sure he takes his meds and take action when his mood starts to slip. You can't count on him to take the lead in this area.

Second, your H's continuing memory issues. Again, I completely understand what this does to your ability to trust your H. While I haven't dealt with this in the context of my M and my H's A, I have dealt with it for years now with my father.

My father's TBI was the result of a massive brain bleed, the subsequent surgery and a later concussion suffered in a pedestrian vs. automobile hit-and-run. He was lucky to survive and it's amazing that he's as able to function as well as he does. Nevertheless, he has serious memory issues that will never go away. In my father's case, his short-term working memory is good. For instance, he can remember the dates and times of appointments much better than I can. When he shows up to see his wacky VA neurologist, she starts the exam by asking him how his memory is (to which he always responds, "great" -- duh, if your memory is bad, you're not going to remember that your memory is bad) and giving him the usual neuro exam which only deals with short-term memory. It's not until I chime in with examples of his memory impairment that she begins to see the whole picture.

With anything complex or more remote in time (a month or more), his memory loss is so bad it's debilitating. He can't remember his own medical history even though he's constantly having procedures and we're constantly in the doctor's office. He can't accurately recount recent events. He can't understand the ins and outs of the VA disability pension he's getting even though he's a lawyer and worked in human resources for most of his life. He can't make the connection between his frighteningly high blood pressure and taking his meds.

My father does not have Alzheimers and he's remained very stable over time. I would say he's even shown some improvement with good care and lots of stimulation. Nevertheless, his memory issues remain and we've learned to work around them.

In your case, have you noticed memory impairment in areas other than those involving his A? If so, it's possible that his story keeps changing not because he is or has tried to deceive you since the polygraph, but due to his TBI-related memory issues. From my limited knowledge of polygraphs, it takes a conscious intent to deceive to trigger the machine to record an untruthful response. If your H was answering questions to the best of his ability at the time, he would appear on the test results to be truthful.

At some point, you may just have to accept that you'll never be able to get a full and accurate account of the A from your H. I do agree with GY when she talked about not bringing up the A anymore. I did that myself and it has helped me. In fact, the only time we talk about the A now is when my H brings it up. Because I have done my best to avoid AO's and DJ's with respect to the A, my H is not afraid to bring it up.

Third, your H's erratic, stupid behavior in contacting the OW. We've already discussed the possibility that he was looking for something to lift him out of his depression. It's also possible that his TBI has caused some kind of disconnect in his brain that makes it harder to let reason and common sense control his behavior.

Again I have my father as an example. His balance hasn't been right since the initial brain bleed. He walks like Frankenstein and is always in danger of falling over. Without adequate support, he looks like he's falling-down drunk. Despite this obvious physical impairment, my father has on many occasions tried to walk more than a mile from the place where he lives, down a very busy road with no sidewalks, to the store to buy cigars. He has been found collapsed in the store's parking lot, he's been found wandering in the middle of the busy road, he's been found down in a ditch unable to get out. Strangers have brought him home, the police have brought him home, and the people who run the facility have been called and have gone to get him. One time he started out on this journey and fell down within the first few minutes. Instead of turning around and going home, he kept going. He fell over and over again for more than three hours without turning back.

Again, I bring this up to explore the possibility that your H's recent attempts to contact OW may be the result of a deficit in the reasoning/impulse control portion of his brain rather than a true desire to go wayward again.

The only thing that stopped my father from making these life-threatening trips to the store was to take away his spending money.

I don't remember how you learned that your H contacted OW (I'm afraid to go back and look for fear that I'll lose this post again), but is there some way you can take away his ability to contact her?

AM, I'm praying for strength and wisdom for you. You're dealing with a very complex and difficult situation.

Bea
Posted By: hope3343 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/20/09 04:34 PM
Hi AM,
Just checking in. You and family are in my prayers.

My D16 tanked big time last year with her grades. She is doing much better this year. It takes time.

Take away the video games and cell phone. Always amazing how they come around and do their homework.

Just take one day at a time and breathe...
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/23/09 12:03 PM
Bea,

Thanks for the food for thought. I first noticed H's memory loss after he returned from Iraq in 2004. The first clue was about a trip we had taken when he was home for R&R Thanksgiving 2003. We had gone on a 4 day ski trip to Austria and there were several unique things about the trip. A year later we visited the same place, stayed in the same hotel, etc. H had no recollection of having ever been there. There have been other non-A related instances - going to the airport a day after he was supposed to, buying 2 tickets for the same trip, not knowing directions to health clinic even though he had been there several times, leaving the oven on, etc. There were things about the A that I really believe he did not remember. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. At the polygraph, he said some of the things he was not sure if he remembered or someone just told him that it happened. So, yes, I think sometimes he really did not remember and sometimes he lied. I actually think his memory got much much worse during the A, but it is hard to know that for sure.

H contacted OW via email using the computer at MIL's house. He admitted to the contact two days after he sent it. I think he admitted to it for two reasons; 1) I suspected and asked him about the contact from his behavior - talking just like any wayward and 2) OW did not respond to him. If she had, I think H would have kept pursuing the A and I would be paying a D lawyer instead of putting braces on DS15's teeth.

We had a pretty good weekend; no A talk, getting out to a movie and doing a little shopping. There is ahuge strain between H and DS15. H said he would talk to DS15, but I doubt he will unless I push him and I really don't want to be the one dragging H through R.

H has not started any kind of meds. He does not have an appt until Dec to talk about anti-depressants. In the meantime, his mood seems pretty good. It looks like Mr. Hyde is back in the box for now anyway. I started a calendar with dates of when I know H was depressed and will track it better from now on.

AM
Posted By: catperson Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/23/09 04:14 PM
Has he been thoroughly checked for the memory loss? Our best friend was in the Gulf War, and was exposed to a chemical that is essentially killing his brain cells. He had to leave a lucrative government job because he could no longer perform his duties. It took 10 years of fighting with them, but the government finally admitted what happened and they are just now taking care of him! Just now, after all this time, they're paying for him to go to the Mayo Clinic to try to find a way to help him.

But he'll never be the same. It gets worse every year. They say he'll eventually not even know who his kids are. Please check into it!

Oh, and he takes about 50 pills a day, to try to slow down the memory loss.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/24/09 05:43 PM
Cat,

H had a battery of cognitive/memory tests last winter. A few quirky things appears, but nothing really substantial.

Trigger, triggers everywhere, but I am keeping my mouth SHUT about them at home. Working out extra hard at the gym and a call in to IC for an appt soon.

AM

Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/24/09 05:45 PM
GY,

You are on my mind lately. Hope you are doing well.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/25/09 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
GY,

You are on my mind lately. Hope you are doing well.

AM

AM,
I come on here every day to check on you. I too have been concerned about how things are going with you.

I am having some serious triggers and flashbacks related to d-day(s). I really did not expect this to be so traumatic. I guess it just goes to show that no matter how protective and supportive the FWH has been over the year a BS still has a lot to deal with. Of course, I am drowning again in the knowledge of his long-time affair and the intensity of it. It is so hard to deal with the fact that he could have shared a secret life with someone else--things that were said and done that I'll never know.

You can tell that I'm not doing well.

Thanks!

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/25/09 04:43 PM
GY,

I am sorry you are not doing well. It is tough to get through the holidays even without the added stuff from D-day anniversaries.

Are you able to do something for yourself - get a manicure or facial or something else you like? I think now would be a good time to really pamper yourself. You are clearly a wonderful woman and deserve all the best life has to offer.

Last night for us was a little rough for us. H was somewhat detached and thinking about Iraq. Meanwhile, I am hyper-vigilant, looking for any nuance in his behavior. We ended up arguing a little and H said something to the effect of why is it always about what you want. What the heck????? As if I wanted all this stuff he has been doing for the past couple of years. He really has been trying I think, brought me flowers for Thanksgiving table, wrote me a loving note. So this morning, I decided to get outside myself and brought H coffee in bed. He said I woke him up from a bad dream in which the bad guys were killing nuns. Man, this stuff is so complex.

I think time really helps. 'unfortunately, we went back to square two (not really all the way back to original D-day) just a couple of weeks ago.

Today, I just want to be the best me possible and let everything else go ---- just for today. I think I can do that.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/25/09 06:15 PM
AM,
I think AA must be onto something with this "One Day at a Time" concept. I like your being-the-best-me-I-can-be-today attitude I think I'll try it and see if it helps chase the tigers away.

I'm glad you didn't clobber H when he made the about-you comment. Sometimes--oh, what the heck--many times they forget that they made it so that it would be all about us for a long time to come.

It is good to hear you being so positive. It reminds me to be so.

May your holiday be good.

GY

Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/25/09 09:10 PM
goldenyears & armymama ..........

Saying a prayer for both of you today!

Praying you both have a nice Thanksgiving
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/28/09 11:40 AM
Thinking about you GY. Praying you are doing ok.

Things here are ok, not terrible, not wonderful. Yesterday evening, H went to the hardware store without telling me he was leaving. It gave me an immediate trigger. A couple of days ago, he bought a new phone (similar type as before but screen broke on that one) and that was a trigger as well. H was in the EA phase of the A when he got the last phone and the during the PA, the phone played a prominant role with text messages, photos from our vacation spots, trading nude photos of H and OW, Yuck. I thought I was about done with this trigger stuff. Now it is flooding back.

Wish we would get the snow so we could get outside and do some skiing. Instead, it is just dreary inside and out.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/28/09 09:05 PM
AM,
I've been much better since the earlier part of the week. We have actually been visiting family out of town since Wednesday. Obviously, being together 24/7 and being in a different location has been good. When we get back home and I am left to myself while H is at work, I absolutley must find some way to deflect the thoughts that drag me down. That was then; this is now. That was then; this is now. That was then....

Hang in there, friend.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/29/09 08:14 PM
GY,

I hope today finds you doing better. I make no claim to be an expert (what an understatement - sometimes I feel like the biggest failure at all this), but my advice would be to stay busy, busy, busy for the next few days untilyou are past the D-day anniversaries. Plan every minute of time so there is no time left for wandering thoughts, introspection and letting the mind go to dark places.

Your H, like mine - maybe even more so than mine, cares about you and does not wish you to hurt any longer. If it were not that way, he would be on the D-train out of the marriage. At least that is my take from the outside looking in.

AM
Posted By: Vittoria Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/29/09 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
(what an understatement - sometimes I feel like the biggest failure at all this)
You are the farthest thing from a failure armymama.

We aren't defined by the success of our M.

hug
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 11/30/09 12:29 AM
AM,
The failure and the blame can lie only at your H's feet. You are a wonder!

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/01/09 12:54 AM
Well, I sure stink at taking my own advice. To much time on my hands over the long weekend and was feeling down, down, down. DS21 in Iraq is ignoring all emails from me, H and DD36 and a package we sent him for halloween came back as undeliverable. I am not sure what is going on in his head, but it certainly makes me sad and worried.

Today was light years better. Went to the gym today and it was just what I needed.

GY, did you go for a massage today? I think I will add spa gift certificate to my Christmas wish list - along with a large mixing bowl and new potholders (H accidentally dropped one potholder into the woodburning stove and it is nothing more than a few ashes). Simple wants.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/06/09 12:57 PM
A little update - mostly for me since I don't keep a separate journal.

H and I had a discussion a couple of days ago about O&H. It has been a huge sticking point for us since D-day. When we worked on the O&H subcourse in Jan 2009, H said he would try to be open, but was not sure if he could because he has always been a conflict avoider. He was still saying much the same sort of thing a couple of days ago. I asked how I was supposed to know when something bothered him, am I supposed to trust his judgement about what is important to be open about and what is not? This is bigger than just asking whether I look fat in these jeans or not. H had not told me some pretty important stuff lately - such as he contacted the OW and was making a plan to leave. I told H that unless he commits to complete O&H, it is a dealbreaker for me and I cannot be M to him. H got pretty upset, but finally agreed that he has to tell me what he is thinking. This is the first he has talked the talk on this topic - now time to see if he will actually walk the walk. H has done about half the things on my list of requirements for his return. I plan on bringing up the progress/lack of progress when we go to our MC appointment Tues.

AM
Posted By: staytogether Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/06/09 01:14 PM
Hi AM

I'm following your journal.

J has become O&H recently and I've been trying to think what the turning point was.

He would keep to himself things that were upsetting or annoying him and I think largely because my response was to defend myself best form of defence being attack. SO he didn't always feel safe enough to be OandH.

He seems to be more chilled because of his o&H.

How do you feel about the level of progress?

ANy news from Iraq?

Hope you have a good Sunday
Posted By: catperson Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/06/09 03:07 PM
Just remember that NOT being O&H is completely due to fear. Just like a five year old, who's afraid of being punished for admitting he broke the glass.

Once your Hs realize they will be...benefitted and not punished for the O&H, it may start coming more easily.

Kind of like, when my H - who for years would not lift a single finger around our house - does something to help me now, I bend over backwards to make the ensuing hours after the feat especially nice for him: favorite foods, hugs and kisses of course, watch HIS show, do his favorite activities...it can be really subtle, but the end effect is that he subconsciously starts to equate O&H (or in my case helping me) with good things, not bad.
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/06/09 10:29 PM
I feel your pain. In our positions, we BS's seem to constantly worry what the spouse might be thinking. Mine is probably so sick of hearing "What are you thinking?" Sometimes he hesitates just a second too long before responding; and I, of course, ask "Truth." He has come to realize that is part of his cross to bear for the betrayal.

It is good to hear from you.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/08/09 12:35 AM
Thanks for checking in on me. it's good to have folks interested.

DS21 called from Iraq Sat afternoon. He sounded pretty good and H and I talked to him for about 35 minutes. No talk about his feelings over the past month's events, just newsy news. It was a good conversation. I know things had been weighing on H's mind because whenever we talked about DS21 he looked pretty sad and H had said he was hoping DS21 would call/email after H sent his apology week ago Sat.

GY, your comment is so ironic. I often used to ask H what he was thinking. Now he is the one asking me. Usually, it is not about much of anything. But since this last event, the triggers have been back with a vengence. The Tiger Woods story really had me going. And last night, I could not watch the last episode of The Amazing Race (is that REALLY a great loss - I think not) because it ended in Las Vegas (OW and H had plans to go, joked about being married by an Elvis, OW sent H a text from Vegas while we were out at my birthday dinner, and THE text that led to D-day came in the middle of the night from Vegas). Anyway, my mantra is "That was then and this is now" over and over again, all the while I bite down hard on my tongue.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/08/09 03:45 PM
AM,
His wanting to know what you are thinking sounds promising. A little fear on his part can be a good thing.
GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/09/09 07:58 PM
Yesterday, H and I saw our MC for the first time in a few months and the first time after last month's episode (I don't have a better term for what happened last month). When MC asked how things were going, H said he thought they were going well and I brought up the list of requirements I had presented H for his return and we went through the ones that had been done and those that were still on the list. MC wrote them all down. I said that I was in "wait and see" mode about whether H would accomplish them or not. H set about working on the rest of the list - arranging attendance at the Jan MB weekend, scheduling IC for himself, working on apologizing to those who have been hurt by his actions. So we shall see.

In the meantime, I am avoiding LBs and working on meeting H's top ENs.

AM
Posted By: catperson Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/09/09 09:24 PM
He sounds more reasonable and interested than most of the FWHs around here.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/11/09 12:19 AM
Catperson,

Maybe. H has been a really good talker, gaslighter and lier, but not so good on actually making good on his promises. We shall see if he has it in him to follow through on what he signed up to do. I am watching and waiting.

AM

PS. Goldenyears, Tuesday our MC asked what our overall goal is for our M. H replied that we want to grow old together and die in each other's arms and to be the old couple walking down the street hand in hand - the couple that everyone wants to be. Thank you so much for that vision that your posted on the recovery forum.
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/15/09 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
PS. Goldenyears, Tuesday our MC asked what our overall goal is for our M. H replied that we want to grow old together and die in each other's arms and to be the old couple walking down the street hand in hand - the couple that everyone wants to be. Thank you so much for that vision that your posted on the recovery forum.

Thanks. I'm glad I shared something useful to someone else. Right now in the wake of d-day anniversary, all I can say is that reaching that end is going to be a whole lot harder than I thought it would be when we got married. "Recovery is not for wimps."

I hope you have a good Christmas.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/15/09 08:12 PM
GY,
One year post D-day can really be a rough time. Keeping busy and staying "outside one's own head" seems to keep the triggers at bay for me. Sometimes, I still feel really sad about everything from the past 2+ years.

We had more bad news last weekend. My oldest brother, who lived in Houston, died suddenly at the age of 71. There is a reception Thursday, but neither other brother nor I will be attending. I have mixed feelings about that.

I had forgotten something that came up at our last MC visit. MC asked H what prompted the contact with OW, was there something about the fall timeframe? H responded back with 1) various attacks that occurred in Baghdad in fall 2003 and 2) the A started in late Sep/early Oct. Both of these things as triggers were a surprise to me. H had previously commented on how dates and anniversaries of things did not really trigger him.

On the plus side, H made the arrangements for us to attend the Jan marriagebuilder's weekend. The only contribution I made was to arrange for my brother to come stay with DS15 for a few days. H did the rest. So far, he is doing everything that I had on my list of early Nov. I think refraining from talking about this at home and leaving it to our MC visit was a good thing to do.



AM
Posted By: black_raven Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/15/09 08:23 PM
Sorry to hear about your brother.

As for H's response...ehhhhh...does MC usually prompt H with her questions? Adding, "was there something about the fall timeframe?" vs just letting him answer about why there was contact...KWIM?
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/16/09 12:17 AM
Hmmm. It was a week ago and I can't remember the exact question, but I think it was something open-ended. We had been talking about H's depression in the fall and then his emailing the OW and secretly making plans for another military deployment. I think MC asked if H knew why he was depressed then and that was when H mentioned the attacks in Iraq in 2003 and that the A started in the fall of 2007.

He has told me a couple different things about making contact. Right after he admitted it to me, he said he did it to "see if something was there". A few days later, he spun that into thinking he needed her forgiveness. I called horse hockey on that one and reminded him of what he initally told me. He said he has no recollection of ever telling me that he was looking to re-start the A. BUT, that's what it was. Makes me feel ill.

AM
Posted By: Vittoria Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/16/09 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
On the plus side, H made the arrangements for us to attend the Jan marriagebuilder's weekend. The only contribution I made was to arrange for my brother to come stay with DS15 for a few days. H did the rest. So far, he is doing everything that I had on my list of early Nov. I think refraining from talking about this at home and leaving it to our MC visit was a good thing to do.
Wow, I think that this a big plus that he did this himself. ( for some reason I thought that you had gone before, maybe that's GY I'm thinkin' of )
I hope it helps him realize what is required in an MB marriage.
At any rate armymama, you will enjoy the seminar, and the shopping in the big mall, it's way cool!

I'm sorry to hear about your brother too. hug
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/10/10 05:03 PM
Hello, my friend.
I've missed "talking" to you. I hope you're doing well.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/11/10 07:09 PM
Hi GY,

Thanks for checking in on me. We had a very nice, quiet Christmas and New Years. H started an anti-depressant and his mood seems pretty even. Of course, the depression before seemed cyclical so time will tell. From my perspective, the last few weeks have been pretty good. Today, H has IC so I wrote down some of my observations, positive and concerns, for him to take to the appt. Sort of a food for thought note.

We are off to the MB weekend at the end of the month. I am hoping it will be above zero and limited snowfall while we are travelling.

GY, I hope you are well. I think of you often.

AM
Posted By: mindshare Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/11/10 07:36 PM
Happy New Year AM!

Seems like things are going ok for the time being. I'm glad to hear that. It's great that you are going to the MB weekend. I look forward to hearing about all the good progress that you and WH make.

Have you heard from AW at all? Do you talk to her off board? She disappeared and I was wondering how she is doing.

Mindshare
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/11/10 09:59 PM
Thanks Mindshare. Happy New Year to you as well.

I have not seen anything from AW since before the holidays. I don't have any other contact with her off board. I have been thinking about her and wondering how she is doing. I was thinking of bumping her thread to see if she has been reading anything here.

AM
Posted By: HerPapaBear Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/12/10 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
We are off to the MB weekend at the end of the month. I am hoping it will be above zero and limited snowfall while we are travelling.

SMB & I are so glad to hear you are going to the MB weekend. You'll likely meet Dr. Harley's wife Joyce, she is sooo sweet.

Hope you'll have time to visit the Mall of America. It is less than a mile away and the hotel has shuttles that take you there every hour. Anyway, what great news.
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/13/10 06:13 PM
AM,
It's so good to hear that things are moving along more smoothly for you. I have nothing but absolute admiration for you because you truly are a good wife. You have dealt with some mind-shattering things, and you continue to move ahead with poise and dedication.

H and I are recovering nicely, but we are currently dealing with some other family issues that threaten to cause us a great deal of grief. He is my rock now.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/14/10 08:22 PM
Hi GY,

Thanks for checking in on me. Things are going along ok. I am not sure how smoothly they are and I sure don't feel poised or dignified.

Today was a good day of RC with H. We went skiing after dropping DS15 off at school.

I am sorry you are having some family challenges. Sometimes, it seems as though it is just one thing after another. I hope it resolves soon.

AM
Posted By: hope3343 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/14/10 09:07 PM
Hi AM, just catching up on your story. Admire the way you handle your life.

No one is perfect...how I learned that. Just brush ourselves off and keep going.

Skiing?? brrrrrrr. Better you than me!
Posted By: turtlehead Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/14/10 09:53 PM
OH, man. The kid was in school and you guys went *skiing*?!
That is just cold. I love it smile
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/14/10 10:02 PM
It's not that cold. Kid is on the high school ski team and goes every day after school.

I go when the snow is good and the temperatures comfortable. I love the views from the top of the mountains. It is not as spectacular as the Alps, but still pretty good.

And, thankfully, OW has never seen snow, let alone race 5 or more miles from the top of a mountain to the valley. Nothing like it.

AM





Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/14/10 10:49 PM
Hope,

I am sorry this is happening to DD16. Girls can be so, so awful. My high school years were miserable and I never could figure out what I did to tick off the girls in my school. I ended up with a couple of close friends and that was good.

I think you handled this well, just like you are handling things at work. I really admire you. I don't think there is any way I could be in the same room with OW at work. You are amazing.

AM

ok, Hope. I thought this was posting onto your thread. Guess I had too many windows open - new computer with touchy keyboard.
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/01/10 12:35 AM
AM,
Just wondering how the MB Weekend went??? Let us know.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/01/10 04:36 PM
An update. H and I went to the MB course last weekend. It was excellent. Both H and I picked up many nuggets. Time now to work on the followup - this time with the accountability of a coach.

My most difficult thing will be to keep my mouth shut about the A. But, at least for the last few days, I have not been feeling the least bit resentful. That in itself is amazing.

AM
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/01/10 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
An update. H and I went to the MB course last weekend. It was excellent. Both H and I picked up many nuggets. Time now to work on the followup - this time will the accountability of a coach.

My most difficult thing will be to keep my mouth shut about the A. But, at least for the last few days, I have not been feeling the least bit resentful. That in itself is amazing.

AM

Prayers for both of you. pray
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/01/10 06:09 PM
Thanks Pepperband. Prayers are always welcomed and appreciated.

AM
Posted By: mindshare Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/01/10 06:14 PM
Great news AM! I hope that the MB weekend and ongoing coaching will finally get you over those remaining hurdles and into an amazing recovery.

Mindshare
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/04/10 10:11 PM
An interesting few days. H and I attended the MB weekend. It was good and we came home feeling positive.

Tues we filled out and shared the personal history questionnaire. A little rough but no real surprises and no LBs.

Then, yesterday, for NO reason I know, I asked H whether he had talked to OW on phone in NOV, when he was in contact (the event that led to the re-title of thread). I had thought he emailed her and she never answered (had some character???). Turned out they emailed using a new account several times and talked on the phone several times from H's mom's to OW work phone. I went ballastic, called OW on the phone (she denied it), talked to her H (he believed it). Amazingly, MB coach called during the middle of this - said we needed to work on affection subcourse first. So today we did. But about 4 hours sleep last night and two pieces of toast to eat in the last couple days.

The real thing that troubles me is the question of WHY AM I STILL HERE IN THE M? can not answer that one

AM
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/04/10 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
The real thing that troubles me is the question of WHY AM I STILL HERE IN THE M? can not answer that one

Because you made a decision to do the work.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/04/10 11:57 PM
Well, that's one of us anyway. MB Coach says she will address other O&H with H. Takes it off my plate.


BTW, the very nice apology I received from OW last Nov was created under duress from OWH and took her more than 2 hours to write. I actually did get a laugh out of that one.
AM
Posted By: black_raven Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 01:33 AM
Glad to here the weekend went well but sorry to hear about events of last Nov. sigh

Did H say anything specific about what he liked about the weekend or was it in general?

Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 10:00 AM
He liked meeting the Harley's. Even though we have read the books, he liked hearing about the topics in person. He liked having a weekend away alone with me AND he liked the Mall of America.

AM

PS Because we are working on affection sub-course and H would like more smiling, I smiled a bunch yesterday - didn't really feel like it, but did it anyway.
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 07:52 PM
AM,
OMG, I just read your posts from yesterday!!! Secret email account! Phone calls! This just reminds me that we BSs will probably never know everything that happened during and after the A.

You smiled a lot yesterday to hide the pain you were feeling. Good for you. I know it must have been hard. I agree with Dr. Harley that we can't keep rehashing the affair because it keeps it too fresh in our minds. I wonder though if Dr. Harley has any idea what we BSs go through to maintain that facade when triggers assault us so unexpectedly almost on a daily basis. I wonder if your eyes cooperated with your smiling lips. I remember my FWH telling me that he looked forward to the day that the pain would disappear from my eyes so that they would smile too. Last week when I received his latest additions to the I Love You list (now 10 pages long), one of his additions said, "I love you when you smile even though you are hurting inside." It was good to know that he realizes that there is still pain despite my smiling eyes.

You ask why you are still in the marriage. I've asked myself that same question many times since my H's LTA. I've never come up with a real answer. I did, however, see something in one of Mark's posts that referred to a BS's inexplicable, selfless, unearned love for the WS. I think the key word is is "inexplicable." I've always defined myself by my roles in life--wife, mother, teacher, etc.; maybe I 'm fighting to show a successful outcome in all those roles. I know that I've loved him for so long now that I can't imagine not doing it. Maybe it's because I feel responsible for his happiness, as I did when we took those vows so long ago.

Did you ride the rollercoasters at Mall of America? I was never a rollercoaster fan before the A, but now I can ride anything. I have faced a greater demon than a machine that turns you inside out and upside down. I faced an ugly truth that threatened my sanity and the only life I knew. A little old rollercoaster, no matter how many screams it ilicits, cannot compare to that. I rode them all on my MB weekend.

Have a good weekend.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 09:12 PM
Today's news from OWH was that my H and OW's last conversation was that they still love each other, blah, blah and if it does not work out with OWH and with me, H and OW should be together.

I asked H about his MB understanding for ending an A and he rattled off everything EXCEPT an NC letter.

Did not ride the rollercoaster in MN. It was three below zero and every kid in MN was at the mall staying warm on the rides.

Love bank balance today - overdrawn
H's balance - could care less

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 09:57 PM
(((((ARMYMAMA)))))
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 10:20 PM
CRAP ! grumble
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 10:23 PM
On the plus side (I guess), I lost another 5 pounds.

Thinking seriously (again) about leaving. H and OW belong together - a couple of lying cheaters. A match for all time. The resentment is oozing from every pore - guess that is no secret from my posts of the last couple days.

AM
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 10:25 PM
What does your gut say?
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 10:26 PM
What is your H saying about these latest revelations?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 10:27 PM
AM, have you posted to Dr Harley about this? I bet he has a thing or two to say about this!!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
AM, have you posted to Dr Harley about this? I bet he has a thing or two to say about this!!

Yeah, that too.
Posted By: not2fun Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 10:35 PM
{{{{{AM}}}}},

I am so sorry for your pain.......

Book a spa treatment.....

You (& stupid, foggy WH too.......I suppose.... sigh) are in my prayers.....

Not2fun

ps..... Ok, I must admit I gotta chuckle at the WH's love bank comment
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 11:03 PM
I started to post to Dr. Harley on the weekend forum. In the middle of it, the whole thing disappeared from the computer (sometimes happens0. Then I started thinking that H also attended the course. If he wants to post about what is going on, he should go for it. Let him do the heavy lifting for a flipping change. I AM NOT GOING TO DO THE HEAVY LIFTING ANY LONGER.

AM
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
I started to post to Dr. Harley on the weekend forum. In the middle of it, the whole thing disappeared from the computer (sometimes happens0. Then I started thinking that H also attended the course. If he wants to post about what is going on, he should go for it. Let him do the heavy lifting for a flipping change. I AM NOT GOING TO DO THE HEAVY LIFTING ANY LONGER.

AM

AM, I am suggesting you ask Dr Harley WHAT YOU SHOULD DO. He might tell you to go into Plan B. Its up to you to protect yourself.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
I started to post to Dr. Harley on the weekend forum. In the middle of it, the whole thing disappeared from the computer (sometimes happens0. Then I started thinking that H also attended the course. If he wants to post about what is going on, he should go for it. Let him do the heavy lifting for a flipping change. I AM NOT GOING TO DO THE HEAVY LIFTING ANY LONGER.

AM

Your Giver just shut down from exhaustion.
Taker now driving the bus.
Which means, self care is in order.

Go do some self care.
hug
Posted By: Vittoria Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 11:22 PM
AM, I'm reading along with interest, and I'm sorry for this dip in your R and that you have to feel this despair.
hug
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by armymama
I started to post to Dr. Harley on the weekend forum. In the middle of it, the whole thing disappeared from the computer (sometimes happens0. Then I started thinking that H also attended the course. If he wants to post about what is going on, he should go for it. Let him do the heavy lifting for a flipping change. I AM NOT GOING TO DO THE HEAVY LIFTING ANY LONGER.

AM

Your Giver just shut down from exhaustion.
Taker now driving the bus.
Which means, self care is in order.

Go do some self care.
hug
I don't mean to threadjack your thread, I just have a quick question.
The giver shutting down and the taker doing the driving ...... is this a normal stage of R, triggered by an event or not triggered?
I have been reading but I've not come across anything that is as relevant as how AM feels.
btw AM, my H won't post on the private forum either. Your H may already know the answer to a question to Dr. Harley, hence the avoidance.


Posted By: mindshare Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/05/10 11:26 PM
Sorry to hear you are struggling AM. It's to be expected. A person can only take so much. You have been carrying the load for such a long time now. I think Pep is right on the money. Get some alone, self-pampering time. You need it and you deserve it.

Mindshare
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/06/10 09:46 PM
Feeling better today. H and I posted together on the weekend thread, asking for advice. H said today that he finally understood the "death of a thousand cuts" from trickle truth. He said he did not tell me about the phone calls in Nov because he was afraid and ashamed.

He did not admit to "leaving the door open" with OW. That tidbit of information came from OWH. I will see what Dr. Harley and coach say next week.

In the meantime, I am trying to sleep enough and eat something. Last night I had a raging verbal angry outburst - physically and emotionally draining.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/07/10 02:16 AM
AM,
Sleep is very important, according to the IC I had last year. Ambien, Simply Sleep, Tylenol PM.....

God bless and keep you.

GY
Posted By: black_raven Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/08/10 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
He said he did not tell me about the phone calls in Nov because he was afraid and ashamed.

I'd believe the afraid part but not so much the ashamed part. Keeping you in my prayers am. Be good to yourself.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/09/10 08:32 PM
Well, the sun is shining where I live. I have been sleeping well and life is ok. We are doing the MB courses and for the first time, it is H who is suggesting we get out the books, read a chapter and work in the workbooks. For me, I am much calmer.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/10/10 03:18 PM
AM,
You sound so good that I want to dance a jig and give you a big hug {{{{AM}}}}. I feel your pain and lows just as I feel your optimism and highs. I hope your H continues to walk the walk. You are a wonder, my cyber-friend.
GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/16/10 05:31 PM
Well, a week later and it is too early to dance any jigs. I am barely hanging in there. We are working the program - to the letter.

We'll see about H walking the walk. Meanwhile, I am just waiting for the next item of trickle truth to ooze out.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 02/19/10 03:53 PM
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{AM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 03/01/10 03:54 AM
AM,
Hope you're doing well.
GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 03/02/10 12:46 AM
GY,

Thanks for checking in. Things are going along ok. H and I are diligently working on MB courses and recording everything. So we finally have accountability for what we are doing. H is suggesting that we do the planning, get out our books, etc. He has made progess on the list of things I asked him to do in Nov. He wrote out his EPs and we talked about them. I asked him to include a couple other items and he agreed. He also made a list of people who have been hurt by his actions and has written letters to them. But he wrote the letters last week and has not done anything about sending/emailing them yet. H's IC has been talking to H about this topic so I am backing off.

We booked a cruise for spring break. It should be nice to go someplace warm. In the meantime, the skiing has been great

AM
Posted By: hope3343 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 03/02/10 04:04 AM
Hi AM, have been thinking about you. Looks like you are back on track. It is a struggle I am sure.

My prayers are with you. Every time a M is saved it gives others hope. This MB program is a Godsend.

Blessings..
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 03/02/10 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
GY,

Thanks for checking in. Things are going along ok. H and I are diligently working on MB courses and recording everything. So we finally have accountability for what we are doing. H is suggesting that we do the planning, get out our books, etc. He has made progess on the list of things I asked him to do in Nov. He wrote out his EPs and we talked about them. I asked him to include a couple other items and he agreed. He also made a list of people who have been hurt by his actions and has written letters to them. But he wrote the letters last week and has not done anything about sending/emailing them yet. H's IC has been talking to H about this topic so I am backing off.

We booked a cruise for spring break. It should be nice to go someplace warm. In the meantime, the skiing has been great

AM

AM,
I'm glad to hear that your H is still taking the initiative with the MB work. My H and I pretty much stopped the lessons back in November, but Sandi kept after us so that now we are back on track. We actually did two lessons last week. H doesn't sleep well after we start examining the marriage. Although everything is good now, he gets so overcome with guilt that he tosses and turns most of the night.

The cruise sounds great. We made a bucket list of all the places we want to go in the future--now just to decide what to do first.

God bless you.

GY
Posted By: armywifie Re: False recovery - advice needed - 03/02/10 08:13 PM
Hi AM! Just wanted to check in and see how ur doing... I havnt been on here in a while but I'm going to update my post. I want to thank you for being such a big help and mentoring me through this past (almost) year of pain I've been through. smile
Posted By: not2fun Re: False recovery - advice needed - 03/03/10 01:52 AM
{{{{{AM}}}}},

I am so glad to hear this good news. I think the cruise is a wonderful idea and will do wonders for recovery!!!!!!.......

Not2fun
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 03/03/10 11:02 PM
I am still being pretty cautious. I have been burnt so many times the last couple of years.

Today, I was feeling a little blue for no recent reason. H surprised me with some flowers and a nice note. It was nice and thoughtful.

AM
Posted By: armywifie Re: False recovery - advice needed - 03/23/10 06:36 PM
Hi AM! How have you been?
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 03/23/10 11:18 PM
Hi AW,

Good to hear from you. Overall, things are much better. We are really working the MB program. I am cautious. Two years ago, when I started into this, I gave myself until April 17, 2010 to decide whether I wanted to stay in this M. At the time, it seemed an eternity in the future, but now it is right around the corner. The contact from last fall really set things back and I am still not sure I can be in an M where there will always be a vulnerability to OW.

This week has been strange. I thought something was going on. H finally mentioned that this week is the 7 year anniversary of the start of the war in Iraq. H was in the initial invasion and was triggered by news reports. He had been thinking about the things he saw and smelled during the first few weeks of the war, had some trouble sleeping. He reacted by being fairly withdrawn from me. I interpreted it as withdrawal from OW. Complicated stuff.

How are you doing?

AM
Posted By: armywifie Re: False recovery - advice needed - 03/24/10 03:39 AM
Wow, good luck with everything! I know you will make the right decision. You are very wise. Is your H still in the Army? Will he be deploying again? STBXH deploys back to Iraq in August or Sept.
Things have been going well for me. I'm doing much better emotionally. I dont cry everyday like I used to. My feelings for STBXH are slowly dying out. I feel like I'm just about ready to finalize the divorce and move on. I think there is a good man out there for me somewhere. Just havn't met him yet. I just get really upset when STBXH avoids talking to our kids. I feel like he doesnt care about them anymore. I'm sure he does, but that's just how I feel. I wish he would call them more regularly. They love talking to him and my daughter asks for him all the time.
Posted By: hope3343 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 03/24/10 05:28 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
Hi AW,

Overall, things are much better. We are really working the MB program. I am cautious. Two years ago, when I started into this, I gave myself until April 17, 2010 to decide whether I wanted to stay in this M. At the time, it seemed an eternity in the future, but now it is right around the corner. The contact from last fall really set things back and I am still not sure I can be in an M where there will always be a vulnerability to OW.

This week has been strange. I thought something was going on. H finally mentioned that this week is the 7 year anniversary of the start of the war in Iraq. H was in the initial invasion and was triggered by news reports. He had been thinking about the things he saw and smelled during the first few weeks of the war, had some trouble sleeping. He reacted by being fairly withdrawn from me. I interpreted it as withdrawal from OW. Complicated stuff.

How are you doing?

AM

Hi Army mama just stopping in. One day at a time. Glad you had the opportunity to at least try for your M.

You have given 120 percent. One day this will balance out to a 50/50 split. I have faith.

Take care and God bless
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 04/19/10 07:32 PM
Guess it's about time for an update. The cruise was really good. Great weather. Plenty of UA time, RC time, conversation, affection and SF. We both really enjoyed each other's company.

A little more difficult week after returning. Sat was 2 year anniversary of D-day. I handled that day pretty well, but had been very triggery in the previous days. Also, found that our UA dipped a little last week. Solved the problem by asking for way-over-the-top affection. so far, getting it.
I am still really hopeful we are going in the right direction. MB coach is awesome in keeping us from straying too far.

AM
Posted By: turtlehead Re: False recovery - advice needed - 04/19/10 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Also, found that our UA dipped a little last week. Solved the problem by asking for way-over-the-top affection. so far, getting it.
I am still really hopeful we are going in the right direction.
Sure sounds like it to me!!! dance2
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: False recovery - advice needed - 04/21/10 11:42 PM
MB coaches rock, they have been a Godsend for us as well.

Things get exponentially more complicated and painful after a FR. I'm sorry you have been through that. frown
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 04/22/10 12:13 AM
Yep. I really like the idea of H being accountable to someone else. Today we had a small issue about a piece of luggage. H had been using it as a gym bag and after D-day 1, I found an icky love note from OW in it. Recently, H had been using the bag to tote stuff to fish and game club. So, a couple of weeks ago, I told H in my best MB technique that it would make me really happy if he got rid of the bag. He immediately agreed. A week ago, he told me he had moved his stuff to another bag and I expressed appreciation. Today, I was looking for wd40 in the basement and there was the bag, sitting on the floor. H's explanation was that he misunderstood that I wanted it gone - he thought I just wanted him to stop using it. Well, that's a load of dehydrated cow manure. SO.... rather than express a DJ and start an argument, my plan is to bring it up with coach. Meanwhile, I will just see what happens after that.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 04/22/10 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Yep. I really like the idea of H being accountable to someone else. Today we had a small issue about a piece of luggage. H had been using it as a gym bag and after D-day 1, I found an icky love note from OW in it. Recently, H had been using the bag to tote stuff to fish and game club. So, a couple of weeks ago, I told H in my best MB technique that it would make me really happy if he got rid of the bag. He immediately agreed. A week ago, he told me he had moved his stuff to another bag and I expressed appreciation. Today, I was looking for wd40 in the basement and there was the bag, sitting on the floor. H's explanation was that he misunderstood that I wanted it gone - he thought I just wanted him to stop using it. Well, that's a load of dehydrated cow manure. SO.... rather than express a DJ and start an argument, my plan is to bring it up with coach. Meanwhile, I will just see what happens after that.AM

Wow, AM, that is some seriously strong self-control you have going on there. hurray hurray hurray One good point is that he obviously wasn't trying to hide the bag after he switched to another one.

It's so good to see you here in print. I check quite regularly to see how you are doing.

GY
Posted By: armywifie Re: False recovery - advice needed - 04/30/10 04:04 AM
AM I'm happy to hear your cruise went well! That's awesome! It sounds to me like things are looking up and I'm sure your H didnt mean to hurt you by leaving the bag in the basement. He probably didnt know you meant throw it away.
I'm happy for you!
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/12/10 06:54 PM
A little update. DS22 was home on R&R from Iraq. He left this morning. It was good to see him. DS16 is really struggling at school and has had two panic attacks in as many weeks. H finally spoke to DS16 about the A, apologized and offered to answer any questions DS16 might have - not sure if panic attacks are related to that or are more about stress at school.

We are sort of stuck in working our MB lessons. This time it is my issue. I am still resentful about conversations H and OW shared about nearly everything. Sometimes, I think all we talk about is the weather and the dog and that's ok with me.

I really liked Mark's post on IHS's thread. He perfectly described a BS's feeling after a false recovery.
I am at the 6 month point after the contact and three months after H finally disclosed what really happened in Nov. Still plugging along.
AM
Posted By: not2fun Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/12/10 08:45 PM
{{{{{AM}}}}},

Remember Dr. H's words on resentment....."the more damage the WS inflicts, the more resentment the BS has to overcome...."

Ok, that was more of a paraphrasing of it...... grin

Thanks for the update though........

Not2fun
Posted By: hope3343 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/12/10 08:56 PM
Hi AM, What a difference time makes.

Nice to see positive effort by H. I pray for your M to be everything that God wants for both of you.

It is a struggle to recover and it is a struggle being D. I hate it.

Even when I go to doctor's office and they ask marital status -- I leave it blank.

M are worth saving. Glad you are surviving this.

Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/12/10 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by not2fun
{{{{{AM}}}}},

Remember Dr. H's words on resentment....."the more damage the WS inflicts, the more resentment the BS has to overcome...."

Ok, that was more of a paraphrasing of it...... grin

Thanks for the update though........

Not2fun

Well, trickle truth and a break in no contact sure inflict alot of damage on top of the A.

AM
Posted By: not2fun Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/12/10 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Well, trickle truth and a break in no contact sure inflict alot of damage on top of the A.

EXACTLY


AM, some of us over in Recovery are having this VERY discussion.......it's the thread titled...."Can MB influence repentance?"....... If you want to take a look-see....... grin
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/12/10 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Originally Posted by not2fun
{{{{{AM}}}}},

Remember Dr. H's words on resentment....."the more damage the WS inflicts, the more resentment the BS has to overcome...."

Ok, that was more of a paraphrasing of it...... grin

Thanks for the update though........

Not2fun

Well, trickle truth and a break in no contact sure inflict alot of damage on top of the A.

AM

I'm right there with you on the resentment thing, AM. I no longer mention the A when my resentment boils over (per Dr. H's orders); but I know exactly what you mean about dwelling on what they might have said. My H's LTA gives me a lot to get over, but a false recovery like yours would make it even worse. If you come up with anything to help overcome the resentment, please share. In the meantime, it's good to hear from you.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/12/10 11:46 PM
GY,

Good to hear from you as well. I have still been on the rollercoaster with some pretty bad days of funk. So, I decided to ask about anti-depressants. I didn't want them before, wanted to work through my feelings myself. In any case, I went to the appt at the VA last week and the doc really did not want to prescribe them to me.

He told me two stories. In the first he said the A was like someone parked their pickup truck on my foot, twice. And I was asking for something to take the pain away in my foot, when I really needed to get the truck moved.

The second story involved a hospitalized veteran whose PTSD was so severe that he was really too violent for the Psych ward that he was on. With an anti-depressant, he became a model hospital citizen, took a leadership role on his ward, was admired, etc. When it was suggested he leave the hospital, he said he wanted to stop the anti-depressant first. When the doctor asked why, the patient responded, "Because out in the real world, I need my anger".

In any case, I got my script and will give them a couple of months. Maybe I can work on the conversation course in the next few days. I don't know.

We have had some minor issues about interpretation of EPs. And we had a bumpy POJA about an IPod that VA is providing H to assist with his memory problems. My issue was that it could have Wi-fi access. In the end, we resolved the issue by me placing parental controls on the IPod so that it can only be used off the internet. We are still finding our way in how we negotiate and it is not always smooth. On the plus side, RC, affection, and SF are going along well.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/13/10 12:13 AM
Yep, couldn't live without my Lexapro. Takes the edge off. We call them my crazy pills.

All in all, it seems that you guys are coming along nicely.

Keep in touch.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/27/10 10:34 AM
GY, are you doing ok? Some of your recent posts make me curious/concerned about you.

Things are bumping along ok here. One day, I am ok. The next day, I'm not. H said some interesting things yesterday. We were talking about DWTS, Kate Gosslin, her divorce, etc. I said I never really had a picture of life w/o H in it. He said he had pictured life without me and didn't like it. He said he thought it would be superficial and lonely. Then he said he would not want to be without me, his best friend.

Maybe it is time to move back over to the recovery forum and get another thread title.

AM
Posted By: barbiecat Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/27/10 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
GY, are you doing ok? Some of your recent posts make me curious/concerned about you.

Things are bumping along ok here. One day, I am ok. The next day, I'm not. H said some interesting things yesterday. We were talking about DWTS, Kate Gosslin, her divorce, etc. I said I never really had a picture of life w/o H in it. He said he had pictured life without me and didn't like it. He said he thought it would be superficial and lonely. Then he said he would not want to be without me, his best friend.

Maybe it is time to move back over to the recovery forum and get another thread title.

AM

AWWW! at long last! some genuinely great news!
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/27/10 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
GY, are you doing ok? Some of your recent posts make me curious/concerned about you.

Things are bumping along ok here. One day, I am ok. The next day, I'm not. H said some interesting things yesterday. We were talking about DWTS, Kate Gosslin, her divorce, etc. I said I never really had a picture of life w/o H in it. He said he had pictured life without me and didn't like it. He said he thought it would be superficial and lonely. Then he said he would not want to be without me, his best friend.

Maybe it is time to move back over to the recovery forum and get another thread title.

AM

AM,
Yes, I guess I'm okay. I've had a rough couple of weeks, triggering badly over things that I feel were never truthfully answered. With H's resolve, current transparency, and all-out effort to meet my needs, I ask myself if it really matters now. At eighteen months past d-day, I am reluctant to bring anything up about the past per Dr. Harley's orders. Any advice?????

I'm very happy to hear that you feel you are in true recovery. I've worried a great deal about you and Bea. Then poor Black_raven had her setback, not to mention some iffyness in the way Vittoria was posting a few weeks ago. Isn't it strange how much we are pained by our forum friends' setbacks when we can't even put a screen-name with a face. It just goes to show the depth of comraderie established by someone's caring about our pain.

Thank you for checking in on me. I always look forward to hearing from those of you who have been keeping tabs on me from the get-go.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 05/27/10 07:35 PM
GY,

I don't think I am qualified to give any advice. My posts are riddled with things "not to do". For me, while I thought/felt there were half-truths, lies and omissions, I was unable to move forward in recovery. It kept coming back to O&H and until I was getting that from H, I was angry and resentful more often than not. Now, it is the other way around. I am far less resentful. I don't have a need for any other information about the A. I still trigger out of the blue, but the triggers don't have the same effect and don't last as long. H wrote a good set of EPs and if something does not feel right, I bring out the EPs and compare what is happening to the list.

H and I (especially H) seem much happier than a year ago. I asked H what he thought was different now versus then and he said that now he feels as though I want him to be here. I didn't mention it, but I think he was in withdrawal for a very long time. And I think it was not until he broke the contact last fall that his fantasy of OW was crushed. Even then, she got him to lie about the contact for 3 months. The lying weighed on his mind. I would not wish a false recovery on anyone, but I think in our case when I laid out the plan D and told H I never wanted to see him again, his light bulb went on. Something else he said recently was that he liked being with someone who really knew and understood him and loved him anyway.

I hope you are able to ride out whatever is going on now and get to better times soon. Your MB friend, AM

PS. I just looked at the dates I was posting about resentment - only a couple weeks ago. Soooooo, maybe I am just still on the same rollercoaster - just a different section.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 06/01/10 02:24 PM
GY,

Did you have a relaxing weekend?

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 06/01/10 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
GY,

Did you have a relaxing weekend?

AM

Yes, we had a great weekend at the beach with children and grandchildren. Having H around constantly always brings me out of my funk.

Was yours a good weekend?

GY

How about you?
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 06/01/10 04:48 PM
GY,

I am glad you are feeling better. I recognized a couple of months ago that the UA time was critical to my feelings. The more UA time, or even family time together, the better I feel.

My weekend was not as good as yours. I rattled around pretty much by myself yesterday and Sat. Sunday was good though.

H and I are working on the RC course. It is supposed to be a fun one, but I think using POJA on one of my husbands activities will be tricky. It is an activity that he loves and I tried last year, but am really neutral or even a little negative about doing with him. In any case, I could have gone with him this weekend, but didn't. So it's my own fault that I stewed around. Otherwise, I am doing really well.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 06/28/10 12:36 PM
Our 28th anniversary was Sat. H and I went away for a long weekend, leaving DS16 home with the dog. It was his first time home alone, being bored and wishing he had gone to uncle's house for the weekend.

H and I had a nice time, stayed at a bed and breakfast, toured vineyards all day Sat, went to glass museum yesterday, stopped at brother's house for dinner on the way home. All in all, a very nice trip and a nice weekend. And we weren't on pins and needles, trying to come up with good conversation.

GY, are you reading here at all???? Miss you.

AM
Posted By: not2fun Re: False recovery - advice needed - 06/28/10 12:59 PM
{{{{{{AM}}}}},

I see you moved again......let's hope it's PERMANENT this time...... grin

Good to hear about the anniversary.......more of those to come.....
hug

Not
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 06/28/10 02:38 PM
AM,
I'm here today. I've been taking an MB break, but I did need to check on you and a couple of my other MB friends.

I'm so glad that you had a good anniversary weekend. I do believe that time will continue to take away the sting. Are you continuing with your MB lessons?

We are stalled with the lessons, but otherwise we are doing well. We had our grandchildren with us last week so we really had a great time and I'm so glad that we enjoyed them together. Life is not how I thought it would be, but it's a lot better than it would be if we had called it quits.

Thanks for checking on me.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 06/29/10 01:00 AM
GY,

Glad you had some time with the grands. It sounds like fun.

We are still working on the lessons. Every Monday morning, we sit for an hour, tally the hours of ua from the previous week and plan the next week. We schedule 2 hours to work on lessons. We are currently working on SF. I thought it would be much more "triggery" than it has been. So far, so good.

I am glad you are popping in from time to time. I thought I might not hear from you again. I was very happy to see your note this morning.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 06/29/10 01:02 AM
Not,

Thanks for the good wishes. Things seem to be going well for H and me. He is like a different, better person after attending the MB weekend. Things are SO much better. I still have my ups and downs, but the downs are not as deep and don't last as long.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 07/08/10 04:21 PM
Can it be that the rollercoaster is slowing way down? A couple of small bumps in the last few days - but nothing compared to what they used to be. H and I missed on the UA time last week and both of us really felt it. Yesterday, we crammed a bunch of UA time into the day - getting caught up.

We are still working on the same MB lesson, going slowly, but not stopping.

A very boring update, but I am starting to enjoy boring updates.


AM
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 07/15/10 09:36 PM
Hi AM-

i havent been on the boards for quite a while - but wanted to check up on how you were doing.

i'm so glad you and your H went on the MBW! how was it for both of you?

and i can so relate to your post about your H voting for the song of America's Got Talent. i have had the exact same reaction with my H so many times. i think they are oblivious how even the slightest reference to infidelity can cause us pain- and bring back memories.

but another thing i relate to- is what happens when you explained your pain- we want a healing response from our H that will make us feel comforted- something to show us that we are safe with them now- like we werent before.

and for me- most times - he has no idea what to say- he just goes silent. so - depending where i am emotionally - i will either work on healing myself- or say something like how much i would appreciate some comforting words- and sometimes he says them.

keep up the good work- and the forward progress, SF

Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 07/16/10 12:18 PM
Hi Sunflower,

I think you hit it exactly. I posted our little exchange on the weekend forum. The result was that it was ok for me to be offended and to express it. But we should have stopped before veering off into a conversation about triggers and how we deal with them.

We are doing SO much better. We spend alot of time together and we work the MB program as closely as possible. No shortcuts.


How are you?????
AM
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 07/16/10 09:11 PM
hi AM-

thanks for asking how i'm doing. HMMM...............

we have been up and down. working with steve helped move us forward to a great place- but we had to stop our sessions with him for awhile for financial reasons- so we have been backsliding.

we are back to working with Kim on the Dishonesty Lovebuster lesson. Hopefully this will help- bc my H continues to lie and not be forthright with me-(mostly about inconsequential things) which leads me to feel unsafe with him- which leads me to withdraw- and the negative cycle starts.

have you and your H fixed the dishonesty problem yet? sf
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 07/18/10 10:00 PM
Yes, H is very different from a year ago. A few months ago, in April I think, we had a little challenge when H omitted something that mattered. I don't know what Sandy told him about this topic, but it certainly is very different from before.

This week we did not get all our UA hours in. I was feeling pretty bad. It is amazing how having that time together improves the way both of us feel.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 07/27/10 11:05 AM
UA time is back up. Yippee. Last week, H told MB coach that we had POJAed volunteer time for Aug. MB coach came back with, "What are you going to do this week to make up for the time you missed?" Gotta love her.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 08/04/10 08:35 PM
GY and Sunflower,

Are you out there at all?

This week we said we were going to work on the openness and honesty subcourse. We started by reading the chapter. Then the next day, MB coach calls and said we already did this course. Guess it did not all sink in.

Things are still bumpy. I think too much sometimes and then withdraw. H does not always do the things he signed up to do, lovebuster to me.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 08/04/10 11:25 PM
AM,
Yes, I'm here and doing pretty well. I check in on you and some other faithful MB friends from time to time. I've found that this frequency works best for me, so I come here only to see how you guys are doing.

As for your planning to do the H & O course again, I wonder if it wouldn't serve all of us well to do the lesson again from time to time. I have all faith that you'll survive your bumps. I don't know what has caused it, but I've been better able to talk myself out of triggers the past couple of weeks.
Hope you'll soon be back on track and able to do the same.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 08/06/10 11:40 AM
GY,

Actually, we did not plan to repeat the O&H course. We had forgotten that we ever did it in the first place. We are moving on to annoying habits. I really prefer doing the EN courses rather than the LG courses.

Dr. Harley wrote something on the weekend forum about lookin to the future rather than focusing on the past. It was worth the read.

Sending you good wishes for more triggerless weeks.

AM
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: False recovery - advice needed - 08/12/10 05:00 AM
HI AM-
yes, i am here too.

i have found that when we repeat lessons - sometimes they have more of an impact bc we are more receptive to the concepts presented.

we are still working on the O and H lesson and the dishonesty worksheets.
it is a long battle, bc as you said, i view any omitting of information as not total honesty.

sf
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 09/02/10 05:08 PM
GY and Sunflower,

Are you out there at all?

Things are perking along here. We went on a family vacation a couple of weeks ago. It was fun, but our UA time took a hit since we were with two of the kids for the entire week. And we have stalled on our courses. We don't have a particular reason. We were working on annoying habits. Our lists were pretty short and we have resolved them already. Neither one of us has done much that annoys the other. But in the meantime, some of the critical ENs have taken a hit. Yesterday, H said he had a surprise for me. My first thought was that he brought me flowers (something that he always used to do and had signed on to do in the affection subcourse). It turned out he had bought two fans. These were still a good surprise since it us unseasonably hot here, our house was built in 1920 and does not have AC. A small thing, but I was a little disappointed.

How are you?????

AM
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: False recovery - advice needed - 09/02/10 05:23 PM
This post reminds me just how crucial the UA time is. Romantic love is a very powerful yet delicate thing.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 09/02/10 05:49 PM
DoNoMo,

Yes, even though we had plenty of family time, canoeing, going to the beach, grilling, playing pool in the evenings, there was little UA time for the two of us. In the evenings, when we went to bed, H would read short stories to me. I really like that, but it did not come near 15 hours of just us time.

Usually, when we start feeling a little withdrawn, it is because we had not spent that UA time together, or if we did we weren't focuring on the 4 critical ENs.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 09/03/10 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
GY and Sunflower,

Are you out there at all? Yes, I'm here. I only come on here sometimes to check on some of you guys who saw me through the hard times. I took a pretty strong verbal beating from a veteran a couple of months ago after I posted a response to a new forum member's request for information; and everything in my marriage seems to be going well, so I try to avoid posting anymore.

Things are perking along here. We went on a family vacation a couple of weeks ago. It was fun, but our UA time took a hit since we were with two of the kids for the entire week. And we have stalled on our courses. We don't have a particular reason. We were working on annoying habits. Our lists were pretty short and we have resolved them already. Neither one of us has done much that annoys the other. But in the meantime, some of the critical ENs have taken a hit. Yesterday, H said he had a surprise for me. My first thought was that he brought me flowers (something that he always used to do and had signed on to do in the affection subcourse). It turned out he had bought two fans. These were still a good surprise since it us unseasonably hot here, our house was built in 1920 and does not have AC. A small thing, but I was a little disappointed. Being a Southerner averse to heat, I consider AC an absolute necessity, but in no way a real romantic gesture. Did you let him know that you appreciated the fans but had hoped for flowers? How soon they forget!

How are you????? As I said, earlier, I/we are doing pretty well. He is loving and considerate. I don't know how much he thinks about the past. I don't bring it up per Dr. H's instructions. I am getting quite good at doing hyper-speed jumps to smiles when he detects a trigger-induced mood change in me.

It's good to hear from you. I'm happy that there have not been any huge dips in your rollercoaster ride lately.

GY


AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 09/03/10 03:57 PM
GY,

I doubt your H thinks about A or OW much. I think it is the BSes that have more thoughts. It seems as if whatever happens I am looking to see if my instincts are true, or is there something more that I am missing? Because they were the deceitful one, I don't think the WS has that burden of analyzing everything and it is easier to not think of the past.

I did tell H about the flowers. He's said a couple of times recently that he is sorry for being such a "nimno". I have not replied with anything. But today, in discussion with M coach, I brought up that H says one thing, but does another. Coach is going to talk to H early next week, give him a boot in the rear. It is REALLY nice to have someone do that.

I had read the posts that caused you to stop posting for awhile. Some vets here are particularly dogmatic. While I agree in principle that MB is a narrow path and for our M, we have had so much additional destruction from the FR, we pretty much try to follow MB as closely as possible. Sometimes there are things that don't seem like a good idea, especially when a window of opportunity is past. I don't disagree with your point of view.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 09/15/10 08:37 PM
A quick update:

I still have not gotten any flowers. I made such a big deal of it that H felt flowers at this point would not be meaningful. He is right, of course, recognizing that it is the symbol of him thinking about me that is important. So.... last week when I was out getting my hair done, H got me some lovely amber earrings. I love them.

This weekend is H's birthday. Three years ago, OW gave H a kiss on the head during his birthday lunch and less than 2 weeks later, they were swapping all bodily fluids for the next nearly 7 months. The last 2 years have been very triggery for me. I am hoping this year will be very different. I got H a couple of nice gifts (the previous years birthday shopping was a struggle), have plans to take him to dinner and will bake his favorite pumpkin pie. I think this year will be much better.

AM
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: False recovery - advice needed - 09/15/10 09:07 PM
Remember that often it takes repeatedly stating your needs to have them met, and in a non-browbeating way. "I'd love it if we had flowers on the table tonight" may be all he needs to remind him to pick some up. Or "How would you feel about picking up some flowers for me in an hour?" or even better, "How would you feel about picking out some flowers WITH me in an hour?"

Sometimes we humans are pretty thick-headed. We're so wrapped up in ourselves and our own needs that it's hard to remember to step out of ourselves and meet those of others. I need a lot of reminding, myself. State your need in a non-lovebusting way and you're golden!
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 09/16/10 12:24 AM
DoNoMO,

Thanks for the comments. Your idea is great and I think I will use one of those sentences verbatim. Part of my problem is that I use this sort of stuff as a test - does H do the things he agreed to in our courses? does H take the initiative with our getting out our workbooks, etc. And if he doesn't, then I think that he is not really serious about R.

Something wonderful happened tonight. H went to a dinner meeting. Before he left, after reviewing the precautions he had written out months ago, my H told me that he loved my and that I was the only woman he loved. This is the first time since the A that he has said that I was the only one. So, of course, I reacted by crying.


AM
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: False recovery - advice needed - 09/16/10 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Part of my problem is that I use this sort of stuff as a test - does H do the things he agreed to in our courses?

My wife setting up "tests" for me is probably one of the greatest Love Busters I know of. It makes me furious. She did it with whether I was monitoring her computer, she did it with whether I was looking at the phone bill, and in the early days of our marriage she did it with chores to gauge my commitment to her.


Quote
...my H told me that he loved my and that I was the only woman he loved. This is the first time since the A that he has said that I was the only one. So, of course, I reacted by crying.

Different women have different thresholds for turning on the waterworks, but they are much lower than for most men. Crying makes me uncomfortable... but it's not a Love Buster!
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 09/16/10 03:07 PM
DoNoMo,

Well, I guess I understand your comment about "testing" the R as a LB. But I really don't know how else to "take the pulse" of the R. In our MB coursework, H "signs up" to do things, but then does not follow through. If he does not want to do them, fine, tell me. If he does say he will do something, it is a pretty big LB to me. I interpret it as being dishonest. Maybe it is, maybe he is lazy or forgetful. How am I supposed to know?

I was totally blindsided by my H's affair. I had no idea there was anything wrong other than he had been deployed for 4 and 1/2 out of the previous 6 years (didn't even realize this until after D-day. Military deployment was something my H did and I supported him). I was happy when he was home and unknowingly did a great plan A, meeting his ENs whenever we were together. Now, I doubt my perceptions. I THINK we are finally recovering well. But I thought things were pretty good last year, when H was making plans to leave me and had 10 days of mushy contact with OW.

Re. the crying, it was rare for me and limited to a few mushy movies, hearing some patriotic songs at military funerals of young Soldiers' killed in battle. Now, I am a definite cryer, probably 4-5 times a week. It's not the painful crying that I had for the longest time after D-day. Now, it is more often when something good OR bad happens. My emotions are at the very surface nearly all the time.

As always, thanks for the comments.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 10/22/10 04:53 PM
A little update: H and I are still working on the MB courses. We have finished all the contentious ones as well as the top ENs for both of us. The ones left are much easier to work on.

H seems happier than he has been in a long time. On the other hand, I have still been triggery, especially with the one year anniversary of his broken contact coming up in a couple of weeks. Spending the UA time works best to diffuse those negative feelings. We are working together on a room renovation in the house - not exactly RC. We are a little bit between seasons with RC. In another month, we should have enough snow to ski on and then our favorite RC activities will resume. In the meantime, we are ripping out walls and plaster, making one bedroom out of two small rooms.

All in all, we are perking along, relatively happy with each other and our lives.

GY, are you out there reading at all? I know these next couple of months have the potential to be upsetting.

DoNoMo, I love your posts on the various threads. You have such a good understanding of MB and a great way of using examples to illustrate your understanding.

AM

Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: False recovery - advice needed - 10/22/10 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Spending the UA time works best to diffuse those negative feelings.

Ain't that the truth? Meeting the minimums on UA time really works out the kinks in a relationship. The drama slows down or stops, because you're interacting with one another so often that little problems are discussed and resolved before they become big ones.

Last night my wife and I took our dog for a walk for nearly an hour. The time passed too quickly because we were chatting the whole way!

Quote
In the meantime, we are ripping out walls and plaster, making one bedroom out of two small rooms.

You're together. You're building something. You're working with each other. It's not "recreational companionship", necessarily, but it's still Undivided Attention as long as something else isn't taking you away from your shared task.

I think, sometimes, we here on the forums take an impossible angle on UA time. Yes, that time is best spent meeting the four Intimate Emotional Needs. But it doesn't all HAVE to be spent meeting the four Intimate Emotional Needs... just as much of it as possible. Time spent without kids or distractions, where you can communicate and show affection to one another? Still UA time.

I just hate the idea of a movie or TV as UA time... that's not quite enough interaction to count (IMHO). But ripping apart a room together, sharing a pizza, and interrupting the work for frequent kisses and chats? Absolutely that's UA time!

Quote
DoNoMo, I love your posts on the various threads. You have such a good understanding of MB and a great way of using examples to illustrate your understanding.

Thanks for the compliment. I had been slacking on our efforts, and time spent commenting on these boards is very therapeutic to remind me what I should be doing. FWW and I spent a couple of hours this morning while I was working sending texts back and forth to one another. To me, her desire to engage in conversation is a good litmus test of whether we're spending enough time with one another for her to be in Intimacy with me!
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 10/23/10 11:35 AM
Counting and charting UA time for the past 35 weeks has been a learning experience about the importance of this time together.

Weather permitting, we walk our dog for 1-2 hours a day. This was one of the first things MB coach had us do. We were to hold hands and talk as we were walking. We always count this as UA time. I really like the walks. We have many wooded trails to chose from and the dog loves to run off the leash. We look at leaves and moss, the sunlight coming into the woods, the inticate spider webs that spring up overnight.

As long as we don't wallpaper, we are counting the room renovation as UA time. Past experience with another home decoration project showed that wallpapering removed LB units. We laugh about it, but won't be doing it again.

With the exception of one college football team, we never count TV as UA time. We prepare as if we are going to the game, get our T-shirts on, make nachos before the start of the game and sit together. It brings back memories of when we went to the games in person together. Of course, we like it best when the team wins and they stink this year - the first year since 98 they have dropped out of the top 25.

We have about a month until ski season. Hopefully, all renovation is done so DS22 will have a place to sleep when he comes home on leave.

Thanks for the interest.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 10/25/10 10:06 PM
AM,
Yes, I'm here today. I check MB forum about once a week just to see what some of you guys are up to.

I try to stay off the Surviving forum because it triggers me too badly. Read one last week about someone finding out about previous infidelities in the marriage--it caused me to think way too much last week.

Thanks for remembering that my two-year mark is coming up. We're hanging in there. Most days are good. I try not to wallow too much in the past because when I do it just opens a can of worms best left alone.

I'm glad that you have some successes to buffer the memories of your situation one year ago.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/30/10 03:59 PM
Looking4serenity started a thread on the SAA forum, praying for more posts on the recovery forum. It's been a couple of months since I updated my thread; so I guess it is time. And the news is mostly positive.

Twenty-three years ago today, DS1 was born. We came home from the hospital on new year's day. Last night, I asked my H, "What was your favorite New Year's Eve?". He responded with, "The one DS1 was born". In the hospital, we had silly hats, sips of champagne, and a nurse who took my vitals exactly when we were kissing as the ball dropped in Times Square. A really sweet memory and answer to my quesion.

Most of the time we are doing well. I still have my moments. November was the one year anti-versary of my H contacting OW and lying about it for three months. This year, we are working on our MB courses, meticulously tracking our UA time. H is very transparent, with phone and computer. I still worry from time to time that he will impulsively contact OW to "see how she is doing". Of course, I have always been the worrier in the family. A couple of weeks ago, I asked H if he ever worried about anything (he has never worried about much of anything) and he said, "The only thing I worry about is that you won't be happy again". It is much better now. I started laughing again - I'm not certain when that was. I don't have near as many triggers, and when I do have one, I recognize it for what it is and think about something else.


I am looking forward to a better 2011 and wish the same for all of you on this site reading this.

AM

Posted By: Mulan Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/30/10 04:16 PM
Quote
Twenty-three years ago today, DS1 was born.

Mine too, armymama! He is 23 today!
Posted By: Lookin4Serenity Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/30/10 04:38 PM
Armymama, awesome update. It is stories like yours that keeps hope going for BSs. Your DH saying his only worry is your happiness put a lump in my throat. My WW is still very much fogged up. Hearing something like that from her will take time and most likely may never happen, but if it does....I'd be jello.
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 12/30/10 06:27 PM
Lookin,
I am jello when I think of H's comment. He is an entirely different and better version of himself compared to during and after the A. It took him a long, long time to defog. Once he decided to be an honest man and I quit being overtly angry and resentful, our lives were hugely improved. I believe in the success of MB when the principles are applied as closely as possible, without shortcuts.

Mulan, we know exactly where we were and what we were doing 23 years ago today. Our DS is in the Army. He left last Sunday for his new assignment at Fort Hood, Texas. It took him 2 days and lots of added expense because of the snow. We celebrated his birthday after dinner on Christmas.

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/10/11 03:42 PM
{{{{{{AM}}}}}}
Posted By: armymama Re: False recovery - advice needed - 01/10/11 09:54 PM
Back at you, GY. Good to see you around once in awhile.

AM
Posted By: mazda Re: One year ago - 01/11/11 11:27 AM
Thanks for the info.....
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 02/15/11 01:10 PM
At some point in time, I think I heard Dr. Harley say that how couples interact on Valentine's Day is a litmus test to whether they are in romantic love.

H and I had a nice day. H brought me a card and a new suduko book. I had made a reservation at a very nice restaurant followed by a sleigh ride. The meal was wonderful. We had dinner and then went sleigh ride in the woods and along the lake. It was lightly snowing and a magical ride. Then we had coffee and desert by the fire before heading home. It was a very pleasurable evening.

H and I have had a couple of memorable Valentine's Days. One time, we went to a dinner dance. And a few years ago, we flew to Toronto and stayed at Niagra Falls over Valentine's Day weekend.

Anyways, I think recovery is going pretty well. We are still working on the MB courses and do a subcourse about every two weeks. We are on our 54th week of tracking our UA hours. And we do much better when we have 20 hours or more.


AM
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 04/18/11 04:19 PM
Yesterday marked three years after D-day. My day was so much better than previous tirgger dates. We are both feeling much better and are still following MB principles and working on the subcourses.

The A still pops up from time to time. Last week on vacation, while setting an alarm on the cell phone, I was playing with different rings and H abruptly said, "Don't use that one". It triggered him rather badly and he slept fitfully with nightmares about the counsequences of his A (not the warm fuzziness of it, but the horrible things that happened because of it).


Both H and I believe MB really works, if you actually do it. Whenever we have taken shortcuts, it has hindered our recovery. We re-group and get back into it, trying to follow the program as closely as possible.

Recovery posts are rather boring (thankfully).

AM

Posted By: SusieQ Re: One year ago - 04/18/11 04:34 PM
Thank you for the update! I was just wondering how you were doing the other day smile
Posted By: HalfUnit Re: One year ago - 04/18/11 09:05 PM
I have read allot of post in the days since my injury and being laid up. You make such a great point about both of you following the MB principles. I do not believe my FWH is into them as much as I am.

Seems we never have the time and I believe with out the "time" we won't have a great a marriage as we could. *sigh*

Glad you two seem to be doing so great!!!

HU
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 04/18/11 11:20 PM
Halfunit,

Thanks. H and I really notice a difference if we don't get at least 15 hours of UA time. We have tracked it for 62 weeks now, and when hours dropped (5 times over the past year), we could both tell. Also, we are really stingy in what we count and we schedule everything, to include our SF time.

The program really works if you do it and for my H, if we scheduled the RC and SF, everything else pretty much fell in line. I still need more affection than he provides, but now I tell him I like affection to be "over the top". For me, that is something that changed post A. I need way more affection than I did pre-A.

AM

Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: One year ago - 04/19/11 03:10 PM
Yeah, with my current schedule (back in school), it's tougher to get our UA time in. I like the idea of scheduling SF for the week... I should approach that topic with my wife! Thanks for the suggestion.
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: One year ago - 04/21/11 02:55 PM
AM-
I'm so glad to read that you are doing so well. You and your H are a true inspiration to me.
I havent been here in quite awhile- but i'm glad i came and read your post.
We have been struggling lately - and have had highs and lows. Your consistency and your H's triggering to his ringtone- wow- that warms my heart.
Keep it up.
sf
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 04/26/11 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Yesterday marked three years after D-day. My day was so much better than previous tirgger dates. We are both feeling much better and are still following MB principles and working on the subcourses.

The A still pops up from time to time. Last week on vacation, while setting an alarm on the cell phone, I was playing with different rings and H abruptly said, "Don't use that one". It triggered him rather badly and he slept fitfully with nightmares about the counsequences of his A (not the warm fuzziness of it, but the horrible things that happened because of it).


Both H and I believe MB really works, if you actually do it. Whenever we have taken shortcuts, it has hindered our recovery. We re-group and get back into it, trying to follow the program as closely as possible.

Recovery posts are rather boring (thankfully).

AM

It's good to hear you are still doing well, old friend.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 04/27/11 11:21 AM
Hi Sunflower and GY,

Thanks for stopping by. I have been wondering about you both.

I still have my meltdown moments(ummmm, yesterday), but I usually don't post much about them - too negative. H is being great. Usually, a meltdown occurs after some sort of trigger, too much time to think about it, and some sort of compulsion to talk about it. It ends up with me crying. I can't believe how much I have cried in the last 3 years - more than in the previous 56 years, including infancy.

Best to you both.

AM

Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 05/28/11 02:32 AM
GY,
Going to the beach this weekend with the grandkids????

Sunflower, hugs.

MB coach has us working on the affection subcourse for SEVERAL weeks. One of us is slacking off somewhat. Hmmmm, wonder who? I have been complaining, but no change so the plan is to get VERY specific.

AM




Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 06/15/11 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
GY,
Going to the beach this weekend with the grandkids????

Sunflower, hugs.

MB coach has us working on the affection subcourse for SEVERAL weeks. One of us is slacking off somewhat. Hmmmm, wonder who? I have been complaining, but no change so the plan is to get VERY specific.

AM


AM,
I haven't checked in here or at **edit** in months, but I just wanted to see what you were up to. Was I surprised that you remembered that we generally spend Memorial Day at the beach with the grandchildren. You have to love a friend who remembers. We did go there for MD and will be spending another week there in late June.

We just celebrated our 44th wedding anniversary. MB helped me maintain a degree of sanity in that first year, but now I don't dwell on the infidelity any more. That's not to say that I don't think about it at some point (or two or three) every day. It's just not painful anymore--unless I allow myself to wallow in details. It's just a nasty memory/scar that I've learned to live with.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 06/28/11 03:49 PM
Sunday was our 29th wedding anniversary. H and I went to 1000 Island area for a weekend away. We stayed at a nice B&B, did some sightseeing, had a couple of lovely dinners and on Sat evening took a dinner cruise on the St Lawrence River. It was all very nice with a couple of minor exceptions. For example, there was a couple celebrating their 60th wedding anniversary on the dinner cruise and one of the family members requested the Michael Buble version of the song, "Me and Mrs Jones" (WHAT were these people thinking? Maybe, there last name is Jones. That's the only explanation I could have.).

For the most part it was a very nice weekend - until the ride home. One the way home, we stopped at a clothing store that used to be one of my favorites. I had some pretty good sale coupons and was looking for something to wear at a friend's retirement in DC next month. I should have known better because shopping there with my H was a massive trigger. We finally left without buying anything and had a two hour ride home. In the car, I really got spun up inside and actually found myself wishing my H had met OW first (That was one of the things she wanted me to know - that H had said that he wished he had met OW first. Fogbabble at its finest). I didn't mention this thought, but I did tell H I was still feeling hurt by his discussion of me with OW (H said some awful things about me to her and very few negative comments about her to me. Of course, I know one of her biggest faults is that she is a massive liar.)

Yesterday, when H pushed me for what I was thinking, I said that the wound is still very deep and I was feeling angry (didn't have an AO, but didn't want to be around him either). I guess I am not as tough as I thought. Sometimes, I question my own decision to stay - why would I want to be with someone who is so capable of throwing me under a bus for his own ends? H said he was truly sorry for "talking to OW about me". But he didn't just talk to her, he rideculed and denegrated me, all to justify his actions with her.

So, I am back to mentally listing why I should stay and why I should go. There are many more logical reasons to stay. But I am not feeling the love right now. We are still having issues with the affection lesson. We started to re-visit it about 4 weeks ago and are still stuck on getting the inventory on paper. It seems as though sometimes I am the one stuck and other times, it is him. I think affection is the piece missing. I guess it is time to talk to MB coach about this.

AM
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: One year ago - 06/29/11 01:24 AM
Those moments are awful. I am sorry that your weekend ended on such a bad note. I thought I was crazy and the only one that had those moments still where it just seems like its too much to deal with.

Hopefully things will start going better for you. Thanks for posting though, I feel better knowing that I am not the only one who still thinks about jumping off the crazy recovery wagon sometimes.

Maybe you could plan something special for UA this week that would meet one or two of your top needs in a big way? Those moments hit the $LB balance pretty hard and doing that might help to get you feeling better. If I can get something like that going it helps me and my H to bounce back a lot faster from those bad days.
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 07/19/11 06:10 PM
Yep, I've been going through the same thoughts myself. My scars are just so tender that the slightest touch/trigger makes me examine the scar and the cause until I'm in quite a turmoil. Again, I learned my MB lesson well; I suffer it alone, keeping my mouth shut.
Posted By: MrWondering Re: One year ago - 07/20/11 04:22 AM
It does get a whole lot better you guys...IF you keep your mouth shut (as goldenyears recommends...which is OK as long as you aren't burying things but rather still working a recovery program). There's no reason to bring up triggers and go off on or about them. Bringing up the affair 2 or 3 years later in such manner is an enemy to good conversation. How can he do a better job of "recovering" if you don't as well?

I'm sure you've been told to picture a stop sign. Well do that but also consider alternative ACTIONS...as feelings follow action. Divert your attention on to something else. If trapped in a car like Armymamma...maybe that would have been a perfect time for an audio book on CD or merely crank some tunes.

My wife and I use "bloom where you are planted" a lot. We like it because "bloom" is an action undertaken in response to nutrients and sunlight. Feed your recovery with information and get outside and do things TOGETHER.


Another positive thought.... What if 20 years from today, at your 50 wedding anniversary you BOTH look back at this period of your LIVES and your marriage as your finest hours. It's the opportunity to shine and REBIRTH something more wonderful. A better marriage and shining example of strength and perseverance to your three daughters.

Anyway...I apologize in my johnny sunshine post is ill-timed. I see now it's been a few weeks but oh well.

Mr. Wondering
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: One year ago - 08/06/11 03:42 AM
HI AM-
I can very much relate to all that you feel and are going through. This July, it was 3 years past D-Day for us.
I find that if the trigger is something that my H did not DO - like a song - i have a much easier time keeping my mouth shut and just getting through it- without bringing up the affairs.

But if the trigger is something that he does - like not 100% honesty- or not keeping a POJA - then i explain how i feel- but i work really hard not to mention the affairs- just explain that this behavior was hurtful.
SF
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 08/06/11 11:32 AM
Thanks, Mr Wondering. Those were great comments. I like the bloom "where you plant" thought. It reminds me to re-focus on the positive. I would like to think at 50 years we will value our time together and not think it was an incredible waste of our lives.


Hi Sunflower,

I think your point is an important observation. I am much less bothered by triggers "outside of us" versus ones that currently involve us. Songs don't really bother me and some time ago I started listening in English again.

Right now, I am still having a problem with affection. H says he is happy and in love. I, on the other hand, would like more affection, have told H that, have described exactly what and it does not happen.

As one example of several incidents, on Wednesday, I dropped him off at a place he volunteers. One of the other guys was standing there when we arrived. The three of us had some conversation and then H walked off talking with the other guy - no hug for me, no kiss, not even a good-bye - see you later. I was very hurt. I felt like part of the parked car. My immediate thought was, "H would never have done that to OW". Later, I talked to H, explained my hurt feelings and he said, "I did not mean to hurt your feelings." No, of course not. He did not mean to hurt my feelings with the affair. Except to hide the A from me, I was not considered - a big nothing.

Anyway, right now, I don't think our marriage is wonderful. It is ok - maybe a 6 on a scale of 10. Today, I am still hopeful that it will be a 10. I don't know how I will feel tomorrow.

AM
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: One year ago - 08/06/11 02:11 PM
AM-
I have experienced the exact same words- "I didnt meant to hurt you" from my H many times. To me, that is a very frustrating statement and i feel exactly as you do. I think -"if you didnt want to hurt my feelings - then WHY did you do it? You knew that behavior would be hurtful to me and did it anyway?"

Then i go to the dark place mentally of thinking -"will he ever be a thoughtful, kind partner? is it really possible for people to change? What am i doing with him?" etc. Most of the time now, i dont actually SAY any of this, but i used to. Now i am learning through MB to stop being reactive- and not take his actions personally.

I have explained to my H- that a person who doesnt mean to kill someone- by hitting them with their car by accident- is still going to prison and that person is still dead.

Since you have been specific about the behaviors you want from affection- and your husband has not complied- it probably takes alot of practice to break those habits and create new ones. And he is NOT doing those things TO you- its just a bad habit. This is the most frustrating part for me too.

When i feel like that - i keep reminding myself that "Progress had been made." That we- the BSs are changing also- and its not easy for us to break habits either.

I think the WSs are so used to doing what they want when they want to - IB- that it takes a long time for them to stop and think of us before they do something.
We feel frustrated and unsure when they do that same careless behavior again and again.

Hang in there. Your H has demonstrated in so many ways- how much he has changed and will continue to change. (I loved the story of his work ipod bc my H had the same thing happen.)

Maybe you could tell your H that his statement of "not meaning to hurt you" actually makes it worse - that you would prefer if he just said " I'm sorry. I am working on changing me and will continue to do so." (This is what my H says now when he messes up.)

Try to look at the bigger picture - and how far you have both come.
SF


Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 08/06/11 02:25 PM
Sunflower,

You, of course, are correct. We have come a long way. We are together nearly all the time. We work and play together. Most of the time we are in the same room at the house. I enjoy his company and I think he enjoys mine. We have always been that way. The A had more to do with military deployments and loose boundaries than the dynamics inside our marriage.

Earlier this month, DS23 was home on military leave before going to Iraq. H offered DS23 the IPOD. So that's where it went.

Re. affection, MB coach suggested if H misses an opportunity to kiss me good-bye, that I follow after him, loudly saying something along the lines of "H, you forgot something. You forgot my hug and kiss". She thinks that it will only take one time for that to change that behavior. I think she is right. I just have to not be hurt by his thoughtlessness.

AM

Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 08/31/11 03:47 PM
Hey GY,

I see you lurking. How are you?

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 08/31/11 05:26 PM
Oops! I've been caught! Thanks for the friendly shout-out. Things are okay. For some reason, I've been triggered pretty badly lately. H still devotes over-the-top time and effort into recovery. All the problems I encounter seem to be in my mind as a result of triggers. Almost three years into R, what's going on with me? Wish I knew. Any suggestions???
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 08/31/11 06:04 PM
GY,

I wish I could offer suggestions. I know H and I do much better when we have our 15-20 hours of UA and really try to meet the four critical ENs. We have just been re-doing the affection lesson because I was looking for different types and more affection. I listed all the things I would like and placed them on the desktop of the computer. So far, so good. H is being much more affectionate.

However, there are still things that happen that derail me. A couple of days ago, we were playing a trial computer game together. When the list of top scores came up, the OW's name appeared several times. Ugh, but I ignored it outwardly. Then H tried to type in his and my names together, but it came out his and OW's name (Her name is one syllable different from mine. That has always been the pits). At that point, I went up to bed. It bothered me for a day and a half. I ended up bringing it up. H said that it had been bothering him too. So, I don't know the answer, only to say that it still happens to us.

I keep telling myself that we had multiple D-days of contact and trickle truth. And the last one was Feb 2010 right after we returned from the MB weekend.

AM

Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 09/25/11 11:57 AM
Fall. H says fall is his favorite time of year. He likes the leaves, his birthday and pumpkin pie. For me, it has been a tough time, his birthday was the start of the PA portion of the A. This year, his birthday was ok. We went out to dinner with DS17. And the leaves are looking very nice this year. And I made two pumpkin pies for H.

Yesterday, we did have an issue with H's telephone that ended up with H having an AO. I am still pretty unhappy about the entire incident.

As an aside, about 6 weeks ago, the woman at my hair salon (late-40's, divorced for 7 years) told me she was thinking about asking her boyfriend to move in with her. I suggested that before she do that that she read the book, "Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders". This past week, when I went to my appointment, she told me that she had read the book, broken up with boyfriend instead and made an appointment with her IC. I think she made a good decision.

AM



Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: One year ago - 09/25/11 01:49 PM
AM:

So sorry to hear you FWH's affair is so connected to his birthday. Mine was in the long-distance part of his affair on his birthday (Nov. 2), and it still kills me with the knowledge that I called him from work (couldn't get the night off) to talk about his special day and all of our plans to celebrate it the next weekend, and he couldn't WAIT to get off the phone. Why? Cause he then went and called his POSOW and talked to her for hours. Ugh!!!!

That's something that still bugs me. WHAT did they talk about?!?!?! He still says she did most of the talking and it was all stuff he wasn't all that interested in. Never about me. Never about her husband.

I think I have more work to do to get that issue off my plate.

LOVE!!!! Your advice to your stylist! I did the same with a young lady who was waxing my eyebrows. She was having all kinds of probably with a boyfriend/semi-fiance. I haven't seen her since, but I hope she took my advice!.

And sorry about the phone incident you mention above. Care to share more?
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 09/28/11 11:12 PM
Sweetpea,

I believe your husband's description of what he and OW talked about is probably a lie. I asked my H the same question. He and OW went to lunch together nearly every day; they spent 7 nights together; they texted about a dozen times a day and then talked on the phone for about an hour every day. He could not tell me what they talked about. Then, it came out from OWH, that H and OW talked about VERY personal and family items. She knew about my surgeries, details about concerns about our children, about MIL, all kinds of things. And I believe one of their favorite topics were the shortcomings of me, of OWH, and of our marriages. Those discussions made the affair justified in their warped rationale. There is another post earlier on this thread when the BW talked about OW knowing what things BW liked in bed.


Here is what happened with our cell phone incident. H's charging port on the phone broke. So we got a new phone. I could see online that the phone accessed the internet three times in one day, which is something H agreed not to do (His last contact with OW was by his mother's home phone and via a secret email account). H denied using the internet. I was not convinced. It turns out that when the phone is turned on, it accesses the verizon site and the phone says "registering apps". On this particular day, H had to turn his phone off for some periods of time. H was angry about me not believing him. Later, he said he knows that is the price of his past actions.

Just remembered. Other favorite topics of conversation were the cosmo quizes - especially the ones that dealt with sex.

AM
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: One year ago - 09/29/11 02:21 AM
Ugh. One of the favorite topics of my W's affairs was me too. OM was obsessed with me. Particularly my umm... personal assets... I don't know what possessed the [censored] to do this as W said it often backfired. One thing that was discussed was me being a "crazy war vet". oi vey...

cv
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 09/29/11 10:46 AM
Yep. It was yucky to hear about these scintillating conversations, how he wished he met her first, how they could get an Elvis to marry them in Vegas. It was crazy, crazy talk.

I was reading and talking about Smithsonian Magazine and OW was talking about intercourse positions from Cosmo. Maybe she was right, maybe not. H had his chance to divorce after the false recovery contact. Instead, he became a different, better man and we have what I consider to be interesting conversation. In any case, I cancelled my subscription to Smithsonian. But I still look away from Cosmo at the grocery store checkout counter.

AM
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: One year ago - 09/29/11 01:23 PM
ArmyMama: Ugh! He did tell me that they fantasized about "being together some how, some day as a couple." That was tough to hear.

Wondering: How much should I push the issue of WHAT they talked about? It's been nearly a year. Is it worth getting hardcore over this topic? Do I really need to know these particular gory details? Ugh! Getting the physical ones were bad enough, and knowing he told her he loved her is still vomit-inducing.

I mean, NeverGuessed was suggested I make him take a lie detector, even though I feel that I know the extent of his cheating.

I guess I could use a lie detector to find out if he's being honest about what the contents of his discussions were.

If it turns out that he lied about what he said, what have I learned: That my foggy WH talked smack about me to his whore like all the other waywards do? And that he lied to cover it up?

Hmmmmm. (And sorry for the thread jack).
Posted By: sweetpea2011 Re: One year ago - 09/29/11 01:25 PM
AM:

Cosmo isn't worth a minute of your time. And guess what? I know a woman who used to write for a similar magazine. Those quizzes and the answers they get from alleged readers: mostly made up. It's an outrage.

Sweetpea
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: One year ago - 09/29/11 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
AM:

Cosmo isn't worth a minute of your time. And guess what? I know a woman who used to write for a similar magazine. Those quizzes and the answers they get from alleged readers: mostly made up. It's an outrage.

Sweetpea
Cosmo! rotflmao My, such depth the OW has! rotflmao
Posted By: celticvoyager Re: One year ago - 09/29/11 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Yep. It was yucky to hear about these scintillating conversations, how he wished he met her first, how they could get an Elvis to marry them in Vegas. It was crazy, crazy talk.

I was reading and talking about Smithsonian Magazine and OW was talking about intercourse positions from Cosmo. Maybe she was right, maybe not. H had his chance to divorce after the false recovery contact. Instead, he became a different, better man and we have what I consider to be interesting conversation. In any case, I cancelled my subscription to Smithsonian. But I still look away from Cosmo at the grocery store checkout counter.

AM

oh.. don't forget the matching tattoos. Om was pushing for that. He proposed to my W and gave her a 15dollar wall mart pendant. Now THAT is love.... LOL.

At one point I took my W's rings away. I was sooo mad at her, knew she was having an A but hadn't been able to prove it yet. She took them off to make meatloaf or something, I said "they look dingy, let me get them polished". As soon as I got them, I said "you work on our marriage or these don't go back to you." Oddly enough, she was more angry at herself and OM than me. Kept em a week before I wussed and gave em back though.

We ended up getting new rings, but I still love my original and wear that. It's what I started with and what I'll finish with.

CV
Posted By: sunflower55 Re: One year ago - 10/01/11 12:04 AM
AM -
I totally agree with you about what our FW spouses talked about with the OP.

One awful day, i had called my H while driving home and his personal cell phone picked up without him knowing it- and i could hear him talking to one of his POSOW- and he didnt know i was listening, while he was on his work cell phone. (I think it was G-d letting me know what was happening.)

My H was telling her how much he couldn't wait to see her again and how hot she was.....blah blah blah. i almost drove off the road while listening. I got sick.

Then i found out that one other POSOW told another friend of mine that he was so "unhappy" (wretch) in his marriage with me and that i am very "controlling". This was to make the OW feel sorry for my poor abused H- all the time while i was home waiting for him - and he was out with her. Its so ironic and stupid what they say.

I say - we should just forget it- its in the past and it can only upset us- its not worth it.

SF
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 10/01/11 01:05 AM
Like Sweetpea's H, my H spent hours and hours talking to OW. And I have been very resentful about the amount of time he invested in the A.

You are right. It is definitely not worth it. Like most waywards, H would have said anything to keep the A going. He does not remember half of what he said or did. And the other half, he lied about.

H did tell OW that I was vindictive (her word). Maybe so. I am glad that the A was exposed at work. During the false recovery of Nov 2009, OW complained that she was ostrasized at work. I said that was a good thing that everyone knew she is an adulteress. It allows married men to keep her at a ten foot pole distance. In the end, she is still working there and H and I are still married and are usually, normally, almost always happy. So, ultimately, OW is the loser. What an understatement. What is bigger than a loser?

Wishing you well, Sunflower.

AM






Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 12/07/11 12:48 AM
Wow, it really has been a long time since I posted on this thread. I guess that is because there is not much to talk about. H and I are doing well - a hiccup every now and then. It is nearly always me that has the hiccup - dwelling on the past and how hurtful it was. H is patient with me when I get into a funk. It can last a few hours though.

The fall is generally worse for me and I don't relish the holidays the way I once did. On the plus side, we have fun together; we spend more than 15 hours together every week; we consciously meet each other's critical emotional needs.

Recovery doesn't have much drama.

AM




Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 12/24/11 02:05 PM
What a difference time makes. This year is so much better than previous years. We are having a quiet Christmas with DS17. DS23 re-deployed from Iraq yesterday and hopes to be home on the 29th or 30th. H and I are in love.

I bought three copies of "Draw Close" for Christmas presents. One is for H. One is for H's PTSD counselor at the VA. We introduced him to Dr. Harley's MB principles and he is using the "Effecive Marriage Counseling" in his couples counseling. The third one is for our pastor and his wife. They are both pastors and live/work about 50 miles apart.

Merry Chistmas to all of MB. I am so thankful to this forum and it members.

AM
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: One year ago - 12/24/11 03:13 PM
It's always nice to hear that Christmas is going well for others who've been through the storm! Glad it is a good one for you. Time does do wonders!

Merry Christmas!
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 06/27/12 01:27 PM
Yesterday was our 30th wedding anniversary. It was a pretty low key one. H gave me roses and earrings and we went to one of favorite restaurants.

Plenty of things have changed in the last few years. H is totally onboard with MB principles. We don't do anything without POJA. We spend nearly all our time together. We read the devotional book five nights a week before sleeping.

I love my H and I believe he loves me even more.

AM
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: One year ago - 06/27/12 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Yesterday was our 30th wedding anniversary. It was a pretty low key one. H gave me roses and earrings and we went to one of favorite restaurants.

Plenty of things have changed in the last few years. H is totally onboard with MB principles. We don't do anything without POJA. We spend nearly all our time together. We read the devotional book five nights a week before sleeping.

I love my H and I believe he loves me even more.

AM


Congratulations hurray

Love to hear recovered stories. Thanks for your continued support here. smile
Posted By: Pepperband Re: One year ago - 06/27/12 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Yesterday was our 30th wedding anniversary. It was a pretty low key one. H gave me roses and earrings and we went to one of favorite restaurants.

Plenty of things have changed in the last few years. H is totally onboard with MB principles. We don't do anything without POJA. We spend nearly all our time together. We read the devotional book five nights a week before sleeping.

I love my H and I believe he loves me even more.

AM

loveheart
Posted By: SugarCane Re: One year ago - 06/27/12 10:42 PM
That's wonderful news, AM!
Posted By: Letty Re: One year ago - 06/28/12 04:05 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
Yesterday was our 30th wedding anniversary...I love my H and I believe he loves me even more.

AM

hooray! hurray
great to see some success stories on the board!
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: One year ago - 06/28/12 06:14 PM
Thanks for posting the update! It's always good to read success stories. It provides hope and inspiration to stay on the right road of recovery!

Congrats, AM!
Posted By: My4Loves Re: One year ago - 07/01/12 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by armymama
Yesterday was our 30th wedding anniversary. It was a pretty low key one. H gave me roses and earrings and we went to one of favorite restaurants.

Plenty of things have changed in the last few years. H is totally onboard with MB principles. We don't do anything without POJA. We spend nearly all our time together. We read the devotional book five nights a week before sleeping.

I love my H and I believe he loves me even more.

AM


Rock on....

loveheart
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 09/06/12 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Yesterday was our 30th wedding anniversary. It was a pretty low key one. H gave me roses and earrings and we went to one of favorite restaurants.

Plenty of things have changed in the last few years. H is totally onboard with MB principles. We don't do anything without POJA. We spend nearly all our time together. We read the devotional book five nights a week before sleeping.

I love my H and I believe he loves me even more.

AM

Checkin on you and glad to see this anniversary post.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 09/08/12 01:54 AM
GY,

So, how are YOU?

AM
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 10/15/12 02:10 PM
We are doing well. It is amazing what time--almost four years now--will do. As we progress further into our golden years, we are still enjoying each other and making plans for these years. Do you remember how incensed I was when Dr. Harley told me at the MB weekend to stop talking about the betrayal with my husband? He was right--of course. While my mind still goes back to that misery sometimes, it became easier over time to keep my thoughts to myself. Gradually, the memories became fewer and less painful. Of course, having a FWH whose only goal was to never cause me another second of pain was a major key to where we are today.

From your posts, I see that you are also doing well. I am so glad.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 10/15/12 06:18 PM
GY,

Thanks for the update. I am so glad to hear you are doing well. I think it is so important for people to hear about success stories. Otherwise, it can seem so hopeless.

We actually had a rather serious problem just a week ago. H was dead set on some independent behavior that I was not enthusiastic about. I posted over on the weekend forum and when H read it, he really was remorseful. Thank goodness for Dr. Harley and MB.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/13/12 09:09 PM
The Petreaus scandal is causing both H and me to trigger a bit lately. Friday, H said he was so sorry for Mrs Petreaus and H didn't sleep too well. Yesterday, H said two things he admired most about me were my integrity and moral compass. Meanwhile, I am trying very had not to make comparisons between what is happening now on the news and what happened in our marriage five years ago.

I have been thinking that it would not surprise me to have Article 134 of the UCMJ (the one dealing with adultery) revoked sometime in the next few years. Most states no longer consider adultey a crime and I would guess in the future the military will consider it a private matter, not a crime. I hope I am wrong.

GY, thinking about you today.

AM
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: One year ago - 11/14/12 06:35 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
The Petreaus scandal is causing both H and me to trigger a bit lately. Friday, H said he was so sorry for Mrs Petreaus and H didn't sleep too well. Yesterday, H said two things he admired most about me were my integrity and moral compass. Meanwhile, I am trying very had not to make comparisons between what is happening now on the news and what happened in our marriage five years ago.

I have been thinking that it would not surprise me to have Article 134 of the UCMJ (the one dealing with adultery) revoked sometime in the next few years. Most states no longer consider adultey a crime and I would guess in the future the military will consider it a private matter, not a crime. I hope I am wrong.

GY, thinking about you today.
Sorry for your triggers.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/14/12 01:07 PM
Thanks BH. It actually has been ok because we are on the same side of the argument. H does not defend these guys. He feels badly about the things he did and the long term effect on us.

Sunday, at church, during the greeting time, H gave me a kiss. At least three ladies told me what a lucky wife I am . They are correct.

AM
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: One year ago - 11/14/12 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Thanks BH. It actually has been ok because we are on the same side of the argument. H does not defend these guys. He feels badly about the things he did and the long term effect on us.

Sunday, at church, during the greeting time, H gave me a kiss. At least three ladies told me what a lucky wife I am . They are correct.
AM
How wonderful it is when you start getting the husband and marriage you deserve. smile
Posted By: SunnyDinTX Re: One year ago - 11/14/12 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Thanks BH. It actually has been ok because we are on the same side of the argument. H does not defend these guys. He feels badly about the things he did and the long term effect on us.

Sunday, at church, during the greeting time, H gave me a kiss. At least three ladies told me what a lucky wife I am . They are correct.

AM

It is a great day when you realize that the two of you are facing life hand in hand - together - rather than trying to work through recovery right after an A or even pre-affair when you worked around each other.

I agree though: I think there will come a day when infidelity is seen as only a private matter, sadly.
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 05/07/13 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
GY, thinking about you today.

AM


Even though I check on you only every six months or so, I do wonder more often how you are. I admire your devotion to giving your good advice to those in need. (Your advice to me on the first day I posted made you my friend for life.) As for me, I am better off not coming here often. Triggers, triggers everywhere and not a gun in sight.... Aren't we fortunate that MB helped us get to the point that a trigger has less power than it once had?

I hope you've done well during the last month or so.

GY
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 05/07/13 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
GY, thinking about you today.

AM


Even though I check on you only every six months or so, I do wonder more often how you are. I admire your devotion to giving your good advice to those in need. (Your advice to me on the first day I posted made you my friend for life.) As for me, I am better off not coming here often. Triggers, triggers everywhere and not a gun in sight.... Aren't we fortunate that MB helped us get to the point that a trigger has less power than it once had?

I hope you've done well during the last month or so.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 05/09/13 01:53 AM
GY,

Thanks for stopping by. I was thinking about you a couple of weeks ago, wondering if you ever read here.

I don't have triggers much any more. Last month was D-day plus five years. A couple of days pre-anti-anniversary, it briefly crossed my mind. But, I didn't spend more than a passing thought with it. It's amazing and even though people said this was possible, I really didn't believe it until we started to recover. I liken it to the time years ago when I had cancer. It was miserable at the time and now there are scars, but not much else.

There are two very different approachs to dealing with triggers. One approach is well-described in the thread about trigger management and involves avoiding triggers and changing thoughts before the emotional reaction can begin. The other approach is called "flooding" and involves dealing with (talking about, writing about, thinking about) the trigger until it is SO boring that the person doesn't think about it any longer. I ended up using both approachs - lots of avoidance about some triggers and flooding with others.

H is a changed man. He is such an improved version of himself. We implement MB principles on a daily basis - PORH, POJA, meeting the four critical ENs. Lovebusters are nearly non-existant. Our marriage is doing well. We are so much smarter now and we pass the information to our children.

Stop by again and let me know how you are doing.

Loveya,

AM

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: One year ago - 05/09/13 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
GY,

Thanks for stopping by. I was thinking about you a couple of weeks ago, wondering if you ever read here.

I don't have triggers much any more. Last month was D-day plus five years. A couple of days pre-anti-anniversary, it briefly crossed my mind. But, I didn't spend more than a passing thought with it. It's amazing and even though people said this was possible, I really didn't believe it until we started to recover. I liken it to the time years ago when I had cancer. It was miserable at the time and now there are scars, but not much else.

There are two very different approachs to dealing with triggers. One approach is well-described in the thread about trigger management and involves avoiding triggers and changing thoughts before the emotional reaction can begin. The other approach is called "flooding" and involves dealing with (talking about, writing about, thinking about) the trigger until it is SO boring that the person doesn't think about it any longer. I ended up using both approachs - lots of avoidance about some triggers and flooding with others.

H is a changed man. He is such an improved version of himself. We implement MB principles on a daily basis - PORH, POJA, meeting the four critical ENs. Lovebusters are nearly non-existant. Our marriage is doing well. We are so much smarter now and we pass the information to our children.

Stop by again and let me know how you are doing.

Loveya,

AM

Here are some clips on flooding that armymama is talking about.

I thought these are some good clips of Dr. Harley talking about managing memories with flooding.

Radio clip on flooding

Radio clip on flooding

Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 05/09/13 12:36 PM
AM,
I think I may have mislead you with my "Triggers, triggers everywhere..." comment. (I do have a drama queen manner of speech.) The triggers don't affect me or our recovery. It's just that daily there is some piece of news about infidelity or such. Typically, I just off-handedly say to myself, "Been there."

The information on flooding is very interesting. I realized early on that triggering was greatest when we were getting ready to do something or go somewhere that we had seldom done or been since the affair. For example, we are going to Germany next week; and we have not been to Germany since our visit there midway of his affair. I don't dwell; I just briefly remember and move on. Maybe remembering and moving on as I do is not really a trigger--just a memory with no power to cause harm.

It did occur to me the other day, the the affair is a time marker, much like a bad hurricane or earthquake. Over 20 years ago, our area suffered devastating effects of a hurricane; and for years the residents of the area referenced the hurricane casually when talking of other totally unrelated events. I think that referencing major life-changing events must be quite normal.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 05/09/13 12:58 PM
GY,

I understand. Jut this week I wondered what the people of SC were thinking as they elected Mark Sanford to congress. I guess fidelity and integrity are less and less important to people.

I think your observation about having a memory with no power to cause harm is astute. That's certainly an effect of flooding and it is likely also that the passage of time disassociates memories from the intensity of emotion.

I love Germany in the spring/summer. For four years, we lived in Bavaria, about a block away from the Main River. The river and all the vineyards along the banks were gorgeous. Our village had one traffic light and seven wineries. Have a great trip!

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/21/13 04:29 AM
Yesterday, my brother, the last person in my immediate family as I grew up, died from pancreatic cancer. He had been diagnosed with this vicious disease less than three weeks ago.

I really miss him already. He is the one who supported me in 2009 when H went "off the deep end" and contacted OW via email and phone after 16 months of NC. My brother came to stay with me, helped me winterize the house and get the snow blower ready for use. He stayed with DS when H and I attended the MB weekend in Jan 2010. I always felt as though he had my back when no one else did. Today, H has my back, but there is always that slight nagging feeling that maybe he won't be there for me.

AM
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: One year ago - 11/21/13 04:31 AM
I am so sorry, armymama. frown
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/21/13 04:44 AM
Thanks, Mel.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: One year ago - 11/21/13 08:13 AM
So sorry armymama. hug
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: One year ago - 11/21/13 11:07 AM
I am so sorry Armymama. (((Armymama)))
Posted By: mrEureka Re: One year ago - 11/21/13 01:41 PM
I am very sorry to hear about the passing of your brother.

In regard to the nagging feeling you speak of, someone on the forum once told me something that was very helpful to me. The root of that feeling is fear, and this fear is an attempt to make us stumble and to deny us support and comfort. It is not a warning from the Lord. It comes from the evil one.
Posted By: Everthesame Re: One year ago - 11/21/13 02:02 PM
I'm terribly sorry for your loss, armymama. It's so not fair when they are taken so quickly from us. Prayers for you and the family.

Posted By: BlindSighted2013 Re: One year ago - 11/21/13 06:17 PM
{{{ armymama }}} I am so sorry for your loss and how quickly your brother passed. I know that words don't do justice, but please know that you are in our thoughts and that we care. HUGS.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 11/21/13 08:59 PM
Thank you all.

And thank you, Mr. Eureka, for that timely reminder.

AM
Posted By: V_planifolia Re: One year ago - 11/22/13 03:59 AM
hug
Posted By: wulffpack_girl Re: One year ago - 11/23/13 01:18 PM
I am so sorry for your loss, AM...
Posted By: goldenyears Re: One year ago - 12/12/13 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Yesterday, my brother, the last person in my immediate family as I grew up, died from pancreatic cancer. He had been diagnosed with this vicious disease less than three weeks ago.

I really miss him already. He is the one who supported me in 2009 when H went "off the deep end" and contacted OW via email and phone after 16 months of NC. My brother came to stay with me, helped me winterize the house and get the snow blower ready for use. He stayed with DS when H and I attended the MB weekend in Jan 2010. I always felt as though he had my back when no one else did. Today, H has my back, but there is always that slight nagging feeling that maybe he won't be there for me.

AM

AM,
I just stopped by this site to check on you and discovered your loss. I am very sorry to hear that you have lost your brother. Time, of course, will take some of the pain away; and your wonderful memories of your brother's support and love will keep him on your mind forever.

As to that nagging feeling, I know what you mean. "Broken trust is like a broken vase. You can glue it back together, but you can't ever be sure that it will always hold water." It doesn't mean that you haven't recovered your marriage or that you don't enjoy your relationship. The hard lesson from infidelity is that you can never trust again as you did before.

Have a good Christmas.

GY
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 12/13/13 02:45 PM
GY,

Thanks for stopping by the forum. I was just thinking about you a few days ago. I hope all is well with you and your family.

Merry Christmas to you.

AM
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 01/08/15 08:28 PM
Bump for lightwalker
Posted By: lightwalker Re: One year ago - 01/22/15 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Bump for lightwalker
AM I have been reading through your thread, thanks so much for bumping it for me. I have not yet read through all of it. I'm reading a little at a time because it is so painful to read. At the same time, after knowing where you are now--so incredible--it is very very encouraging for me. I'm thinking of you often, especially when I get discouraged. Your last post telling me of your H's actions and sweet words to you was such a delight for me to read. I keep thinking of that and it just keeps me going. I also see how wonderful all of the posters were and how they were all encouraging, praying and pulling for you in your worst moments...I am so grateful for finding MB and this forum.
Posted By: lightwalker Re: One year ago - 01/28/15 05:34 AM
I have just completed reading your thread AM. Thanks again. There is so much in there that has already been helpful to me.
Posted By: armymama Re: One year ago - 01/28/15 10:35 PM
It was a long read. Glad that you found some helpful things in it.

It was terrible for quite a while. I found it hard to believe people who said there was a better future. But, they were right. Life is good now and our marriage is a big part of that.

AM
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