Hi everyone,

I'll try to make the background short and get right to the point. My husband and I have been together for 8 years (first serious relationship for either of us), married for 4. He has been nothing but wonderfully supportive, driven to support the family, and forgiving of all my failings and flaws. We got pregnant with our first child just a few months after we got married, and, while I became a stellar mom, I was not a stellar wife - my husband studied all day, I did not clean, cook, satisfy him sexually. Yet he stuck with the relationship. It was always the plan for me to go to medical school, and we made that happen starting last year - he worked long hours as a highly successful corporate attorney, financed my education, our son's childcare, continued not to demand any housekeeping, cooking, looked after our son all weekend so I could have more time to study... he gave, and gave, and gave.

I had an affair this past summer. It is the last thing my husband or I ever thought either of us would do, and it is the worst thing either of us could do to our marriage. It revealed a lot of flaws/problems that I had internalized from growing up in a single-parent household, but the fact remains that I made the decision to play with fire - I thought I could talk to this OM, the attention from his was nice, but that that's all it would be.

That's not all. It got out of control so quickly, and I had so many issues that compounded it. I actively pursued this OM, I had control problems, I didn't want to admit it was casual sex for this guy (or that it could even be just that for me). I emotionally disconnected from my husband and son, knew what I was doing was hurtful and jeopardizing everything we had but couldn't "feel" emotionally any real impact. I didn't want affection from my husband, I felt like being independent (not even like being w/ this OM, just independent), I couldn't understand who I had become.

I finally realized this didn't have to be me - I didn't have to be this WS. I stopped contacting the OM, started therapy, and identified that I had to tell my husband and go through this with him if we ever hoped to fix things.

I told him almost 2 1/2 months ago. We are trying to fix things, tentatively, and are reading/have read Dr. Harley's "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Surviving an Affair" books. The question is: what if my husband, the BS, doesn't want to risk this all again?

We have already taken steps that ease his peace of mind and help him focus on making decisions about our future - we are getting a legal divorce tomorrow (religiously we are still married, which carries weight for both of us), I have given him residential custody in our Joint Parenting Agreement, waived spousal support, trying to show him I'm not with him for money, that I regret what I did and want to do what's right by him should things go south... I just don't want them to. I feel like they can be better, that we can fix this, that we can be happy again.

Sorry, I'm losing focus. The question: what if the BS doesn't want the WS back, or doesn't know if he does?

You handed him the get out of marriage free card. It's his right to use it.

Display patience.

Continue to work on fixing you.

Keep your word.

Remain transparent.

Let him notice the positive changes in you.

Respect his decisions.

BS, that is always the prerogative of any betrayed spouse. Some do choose to move on. Some people are just not cut out for this. For me, I did decide to move on but gave my H a second chance to prove himself. We are still together so it did work out. If he had not tried so hard we would not have been.

Have you worked hard to demonstrate remorse and accountability? Have you cut off ALL contact with the OM and demonstrated a willingness to AFFAIR PROOF your marriage so it doesn't happen again? Have you given him a reason to take a second look?

Did you lie to him for a long time so that he just gave up? When that happens, many BS end up falling out of love and even growing to hate the WS. Once that happens, it is very hard to ever turn it around again.

Thanks for such quick replies so far, everyone. I do fully understand that , as iam said, I gave my husband the get out of marriage free card, and he has every right to use it. Every right. The fact that he's still here and we're trying to work through things together? It speaks to how incredible he is, (conversely, how much of an idiot I was), how incredibly lucky and fortunate I am. I cannot appreciate enough that he's still around.

To answer your questions, Melody, I am working hard to show my remorse, my owning up to the situation, taking blame and accountability for my actions. We are practicing Radical Honesty, and I have cut off all contact/chances of contact with the OM. I think we both want to affair-proof our marriage, and I hope he believes my commitment to that. (I do NOT want to be that person again.)

I am also desperately trying to fix everything that was wrong before this, continue fixing myself (as medc said), and hopefully give my BH reason to take a second look.

We don't have a history of lying in our marriage - my only lies to him were during the affair, (duration: 2 months, told him 1.5 weeks after it ended). Prior to that, though, we had unknowingly started not meeting each others' ENs and draining our Love Banks, so I'm also trying to show him that's not what we'd be going back to.

Melody, I'm glad to hear things worked out for you and your husband. I know it's my husband's prerogative, and I have to respect whatever decision he makes - I just feel, in my heart of hearts, that we could make things even better than before.

BS, you most certainly can make things better than before. Why is he getting a divorce so quickly? Are you still living together?

If he is not sure which way he wants to go, then why the quick divorce?

Maybe other BS's have felt this way, but obtaining a legal divorce is something that helps my husband feel safe, protected. This way, it's not just talk that I'm not after his money, that he will be the residential parent for our son, etc. -- documents to those effect become much more real and enforceable upon legal divorce. They are also stronger than a post-nup, especially given that BH and I are still living together and trying to work on things. (The argument being if he and I are still living together, and get a divorce, say, five years from now, the case looks much different before a judge, and there are many more questions about why BH stuck around, all that may have changed or happened since we signed these documents now, etc.)

I was, (naturally, I think), averse to the idea, but feel that if this is something he needs to feel better mentally, and if obtaining a legal divorce will help him set some of these worries aside and just focus on us and trying to fix things, then okay.

Yeah... crazy as it sounds, I think things are already better than they were before in a lot of ways. I just want that chance to keep showing him that for the rest of our lives.

BS2008,

I was wondering why you say you are married in the religious sense but getting a divorce legally. I am an atheist but I thought that most religions recognized adultery as the only real reason for D. I was also wondering on what your plans are for yourself, it seems that you BH could legally just kick you out right after the D is final.

6yearsleft, you're right - and our religion condemns adultery w/ death. But religion/faith is important to us, (moreso now than ever in light of my actions over the summer), and maintaining a marriage religiously (but not legally) allows us to continue working on our marriage, living together, being a family, while the assets/wordly things are more taken care of with the legal divorce.

You're right, my BH could kick me to the curb...but I believe he won't do that. We've talked things over a lot, and he is a man of integrity, of character, of his word. He (and I) now know firsthand how important a good marriage and household are for raising children (also important religiously), and we want to seriously try for their sake. (I want to try for our sake, too. And I think he does as well, it's just harder for him to make the leap.)

We have not made any decisions (other than the legal divorce and the documents therein) regarding staying together or not - mostly it's taking it one day at a time and seeing what happens.

B_S,

I see a problem that will have to be really really thought about on your part. You said
So how does HE affair proof a marriage, given what he has already done? How does he ever have confidence you won't do this again or treat as you did before the affair, if he "gave, and gave, and gave."

What has to happen?

He did all he knew how to do, and you had an affair. so what are you going to change that will give him confidence in himself? You see it seems he did all he knew how to do and it was not enough.

It seems to me the issue is what is enough for you? What are your perspectives on marriage, fidelity, being a W, being someone that people can lean one and depend on?

You need to really really think about this.

God Bless,

JL

BS2008,

This is a little off topic but something you said made me confused.



You say you are devout in your religion, as is you husband, but you clearly do not believe that you should be stoned to death or something. I was also wondering if, after that adultery, you are indeed married in the eyes of your religion. I'm half jew, half catholic (I guess they cancelled out), but I think in the more traditional Jewish laws once the adultery is committed then the marriage is over and the married people don;t really have a say in that.

So in that context I'm just wondering what it means to be married religiously??

Are you finished with school?

How long is the plan for you to live together?

I like the legal divorce idea you mentioned, as it does seem to eliminate some of the doubt as to why you stay.
I don't think there is much you can do other than what you are doing.
You need to know that the vast majority of marriages touched by infidelity do not survive. It denatures the relationship beyond repair for most folks. The objective stats seem to converge on the 30% survival figure and, I would imagine, of those, a fair percentage may not be terribly happy.
Nevertheless, sounds like he has not figured out whether he is one of the few that can get past this. So, if you want to stay with him keep working on it.

BS, here is the problem with your H's strategy. What it will take to recover your marriage is a BUYERS committment to your marriage. It will take BOTH of you to do this. Your H is not committed at all, though. He has obtained a divorce and is going to test the waters, so to speak. He wants a RENTERS AGREEMENT.

It is that "testing" of the waters that will doom your marriage, because what it will take to save this is a committment to save the marriage. NOT a committment to "test" the relationship or protect himself legally.

check this out:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Your H is getting a divorce and is much more committed to protecting his legal interests than he is in saving his marriage. It is this lack of committment that will probably spell the death of your relationship.

I agree he has at least one foot out the door, but I think if that is the case then the death of the marriage is caused by the adultery, not his lack of commitment.

I just need to echo this comment from JL as I think he has hit the nail on the head. There is a MAJOR trust issue now. How do you see this being repaired? He is basically putting you on notice that ONE more slip and its over. Your marriage will never be the same as it was. So much has been damaged.

Does your religion believe in forgiveness, repentance, restitution and reconciliation? I see you are seeing a psychologist but is this really going to help? This is crossing the boundaries of a moral issue? What do your religious leaders say about this?

One thing that struck me about your post is you seem resigned to the outcome whatever that may be. It sounds like you are looking for mercy from your husband. It will be interesting to see how he responds. If you follow the Bible it would be interesting to hear how he responds after reading Hosea.

So what are you going to do to ensure this would never happen again?

I hope you find healing in your relationship.

Thanks for all the helpful responses. You all bring up very valid points, and there are so many facets to the situation that there are a neverending amount of those valid points!

Re: he gave and I did this to him... That is one of the biggest things I'm trying to work on. I think Melody's post re: freeloaders, renters, and buyers is applicable here -- I was certainly a freeloader. I was not a wife and was so convinced of the power of love/soulmates (and that, because of that, things would just work! We'd be happy! It was that we were together that was important!) that I didn't meet his ENs, didn't even know that what I was doing/the assumptions I had were not what "real wives" do/have. (All of this is looking back, I didn't realize any of it at the time.)

I also discovered how intrinsic are my independent behavior issues. (Grew up with a strongly independent single mom, very little affection shown at home, we all got on and took care of ourselves at the end of the day.) So when all this happened with the affair, and I didn't speak to my husband (or anyone, for a while) about it, I did more damage by falling into the "I have this problem, it's my problem, I have to figure it out and then fix things" thinking. I internalized my emotions, cut myself off, and treated my husband even worse (if you can imagine).

So now I know I have to show him -- that is not what he would be coming back to. I don't want to be that person, that freeloader, and I finally am understanding these elementary lessons about relationships, life, what's important. But, as you point out, JL, if he did all of that before and I still had an affair, how do we get past the trust issues now and show him that it's still worth it?

Melody, re: the divorce/my H's plan -- how can I not expect him to act like a renter, (if he's even an interested party at all?!), and not to feel like he has to protect himself? For obvious reasons my words and assurances mean very little right now, and his feelings may be so strong that no matter what actions I take now it may be too late anyway.

I don't mean this to sound like I'm whining or expect to have everything perfect because I decided to stop screwing up - I just am hoping there is, well, hope out there and advice for any ways my H and I can proceed...

B_S,

You asked how do you address the trust issue, one way is to change your perspective. This may come as a surprise to you, but happily married couples actually ENJOY doing things for their spouse. They actually ENJOY seeing them smile. They actually ENJOY doing something for them that relieves some of the stress of daily life.

I am not sure of your religious affiliation, but the concept of a couple becoming one has many deep meanings. One of which is "if my spouse is happy, then I am happy", "If my spouse is hurting then I am hurting", being one means that the other spouse does not gain at the expense of that spouse.

If you read the articles on this site you will read about the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. Harley couples this policy with the policy of radical honesty. His claim is that couples should use POJA for all decisions, no sacrifice should ever be made without the other persons full agreement. Sacrifice leads to resentment and that leads to trouble in a marriage. Win-win situations should be negotiated, and if a spouse has to make sacrifices to achieve a long term goal good for the couple, that spouse needs to be actively supported.

Do you see the synergism of this, the becoming one?

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Absolutely. That's one of the elementary lessons I'm learning - things don't just work like magic because you fell in love and it was great. And it's not about marriage being the end goal for two people - it's about two people getting married, becoming one unit, and growing that way.

I think all of this has definitely put my head in the right place and me on the right track to the spouse I should have been (and hope to still be) - I do want to make my husband happy, I do want to ease his (and, thus, my) pain when he hurts. I enjoy being able to cook a meal for him that he likes, being able to make his life less stressful/easier.

The problem is that, not only did I not do this for most of our marriage, I was such an even worse person during the affair. We are getting our legal divorce today (in 1.5 hrs, actually) and my husband says "You had to have known this was the very probable consequence of your actions" -- and while on some level during the affair I identified this was a possibility, it's like I couldn't emotionally feel enough. Is anyone familiar with such extreme independence "coping" mechanisms?

Yeah...I guess there's no real fix for this, just hope - hard to have given today is (legal) D-day. I made my bed and now I have to lie in it. Sorry - I'll end with the downer post. Thanks again for all the replies and suggestions/insight so far.

B_S,

I know you've read what JL has posted to you, but even as your husband works to protect himself and your children legally, I still see a lot of hope for you and your H.


I would urge you though to keep reading and rereading what JL is telling you in particular. ML is also offering you some very useful information, though I'm not entirely sure I agree with her on the matter of whether the legal D is a good idea. I suppose though that he has the alternative of an Antenuptual agreement that could just as easily protect him and your children.

Honestly, if your H isn't willing to put in the hard.. heartwrenching work of recovering your marriage, I can't blame him. I know you are remourseful.. and I know a handful of guys here on the board who wish they had the opportunity you are giving your husband.. but you really must come to an understanding that even several months out, this must feel to him as if you've shot him in the knees, and then asked him to stand.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing IMO that you can do, is to respect your husband.. and SHOW that respect to him daily. You read different places that women typically need to feel loved, wanted, valued.. but men.. typically most need to feel respected, honored, and admired. These are difficult feelings for a wayward spouse to invoke in the betrayed, but you CAN do it.

Take every extraordinary precaution to safeguard your marriage from even the appearance of a repeat offense. Be COMPLETELY and voluntarily transparent about EVERYTHING. Harley calls it RADICAL HONESTY for a reason.

But here's the other side of that coin.. and where I think ML is headed. Yes.. you did your husband and your family wrong.. but that DOES NOT give him license to treat you poorly if he is going to stay with you. Yes it affects how the two of you will see eachother forever after.. but it does NOT change his responsibilities to love, honor, cherish you.. to treat you as a husband should treat his wife, IF he should decide to stay with you and try.

I'll keep you both, and your children in my prayers..

PS.. if you can, see if your religious leaders have any sort of couples counseling that focuses on restoring hurting marriages. I know the Catholic church has Retrovaille weekend retreats that have done wonders for some.. and you don't necessarily have to be Catholic to attend.

That's not to mention the Harley weekends either.. just some suggestions.

"...I was not a stellar wife - my husband studied all day, I did not clean, cook, satisfy him sexually. Yet he stuck with the relationship. It was always the plan for me to go to medical school, and we made that happen starting last year - he worked long hours as a highly successful corporate attorney, financed my education, our son's childcare, continued not to demand any housekeeping, cooking, looked after our son all weekend so I could have more time to study... he gave, and gave, and gave."

This is what jumped out at me. If sexual satisfaction and domestic support are high on your H's list of emotional needs, I'm surprised HE didn't have an affair! Have you determined what his emotional needs actually ARE? (Read His Needs Her Needs for an in-depth explanation.) Once you've determined that, your job is cut out for you. MEET THOSE NEEDS for him. It's the least you can do for having stepped out on him, when he was busting his hump for you.

That said, have you identified YOUR needs? He may have been piling on his effort ineffectively, killing himself without ever addressing what it is you REALLY want from him. If he'd really been hitting the target, you wouldn't have had an affair. You owe it to both of you to figure out what you need from each other to feel loved and cherished.

This is especially important in light of the fact that your affair has traumatized your H and your marriage. Instead of making hit-or-miss attempts to repair the damage, suggest you get educated about the MB plan to restore marriage, on this site and in Dr. Harley's books on the subject. You both sound like scholars, so this research should be right up your alley.

You will HAVE to amend your schedules to spend a minimum of 15 hours a week, every week, meeting those emotional needs you will have to identify. This is non-negotiable, as is your complete avoidance of ANY contact with your OM. You will have to be fully transparent to your H--give him access to your cell phone, your email and your daily schedule. He doesn't trust you right now, and he shouldn't, but it's your job to prove to him you WILL be trustworthy forever.

I wish you luck as you head down the recovery trail.

Right Here Waiting

Jamesus and RHW, just a quick note of thanks and appreciation before I head to court.

Will respond more in-depth later, simply wanted to say thanks. (One of the things I'm working on: not taking people for granted.)

Good luck getting through the tough day in court.

The judge didn't grant the petition. No legal divorce. My husband is hurting even more now. How can I best help him?? This all feels surreal, and I can't predict anything anymore.

Wow. I don't understand that. I thought a divorce was there for the asking. Seems to be in most states.

This is looking like a BAD thing to you, but I'm not sure it is. As much as he doesn't like it, your BH is now stuck, when he MAY have been planning to leave you flat once a divorce was granted. If so, the temptation will be to withdraw from you in anger and resentment, which would've happened with divorce anyway. But as it is, you have the opportunity to be the wife you want to be, although you're going to have to work it HARD. You'll have the chance, if you use it wisely, to show him that you see things differently now and are making the necessary changes that will allow him to trust and love you again.

I understand that you have been showing him remorse for what you've done. He may still be too hurt to hear you, but would he be willing to read any of the MB material? Love Busters? His Needs Her Needs? Surviving An Affair might be the best place to start. He needs to know that HE isn't defective, that the A was YOUR decision alone. And it would help him recognize the signs you're giving to make it up to him as best you can by changing YOURSELF in ways that you now understand are necessary.

Would he be willing to come here, to the MB boards? They really are slanted toward the plight of the BS. It is they who are most damaged, and need the most help through what is, for them the worst time in their lives. We could help him understand what happened, and how to heal. He might still be overcome with anger and grief and not want to talk to anybody yet. His choice, of course. But let him know there is acceptance and useful information here.

So hard.

Right Here Waiting

Hmm,

Was the divorce filed on the basis of your adultery? I'm just wondering because my state VA grants nearly immediate D in that case.

The reason cited for the divorce was adultery. The judge asked if that was necessary, preferring to keep business private and just call it "irreconcilable differences," but we didn't meet the timeline of separation for that.

The compounding factor for her was that I am currently pregnant. We had a prenatal paternity test performed, it is my H's and not the OM's. The courts, however, do not have jurisdiction over an unborn child, so any child custody arrangements we made for our current son would have to be revisited/repeated for this 2nd child once born. The judge said she didn't want to "bifurcate the system" and have us come back for repeat filings, petitions, etc.

I think she thought she was doing us a favor, maybe thinking that would give our marriage or the children a better chance. However, neither my husband nor I realized quite how important this divorce was until she said 'no.' He really needed this to start believing I am not with him for his money, assets, etc. - to start thinking that maybe I'm with him for *him*. With that in place, he could begin focusing on reconciliation much more.

Also, neither of us can understand why two adults who wish to file for a divorce won't be granted one. My husband did nothing wrong here, and yet he still has to suffer.

I feel toxic. I know I'm not that person, I won't be that person, and I still believe that we can fix things and make them even better - this just makes it that much harder. I don't know where to start, what to do.


PS - To answer the earlier post, we have been reading HNHN, SAA, and we understand what it will take to heal - it's just a question of whether my husband wants to sign on for that. With continued pain, I can't blame him for hesitating. How do I help him??

B_S,

Ok, you have been given an opportunity. I would recommend that you sit down with your H and have a long talk. I think he doesn't need to hear how you love him or how sorry you are. He needs to hear how your perspectives have changed and why they have changed. It is alright to mention what you have learned here, what you have learned from introspection, what you have learned from any other sources of help.

He needs to know what is changing within you. He needs to know your goals and dreams. You might ask about his.

You don't want to overload him with stuff but you need to make it clear that you can sense his frustration, pain, fear, etc. You will respond to what you sense rather than ignore it.

Someone just earlier made a really important point about your H knowing your needs. Harley's original primus was that often well intentioned people will do their best to be great spouses and fail because they put all of their efforts in meeting needs that the other spouse doesn't have or are of low value to them. Worse even if they get the right need they often try to meet them as they themselves would like them met, not as the spouse needs them met.

This is an issue for both of you as the previous poster pointed out. You want to comfort him, meet his needs etc. You need to know what they are and how to meet them. I will offer you a simple example. Let's say your H likes affection, BUT to him a deep sign of affection is holding hands. You like affection and for you a deep sign of affection is kissing. So knowing he likes affection, you kiss him when you see him. He won't interpret this as a sign of deep affection because you did not hold his hand.

Do you see the point? This stuff is really simple, but it is not easy. People often confuse simple and easy and pay the price for that confusion.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

That's really bizarre. The state is forcing you to stay married. Insane.

If I was a BS who was determined to get a divorce, openly stated as much, filed all of the proper paperwork, and was denied by the state, I'd go ahead and live as a single person in every way.

Some idiotic judicial system that won't punish adulterers isn't going to tell me whether I have to be married or not.

I think the judge is way way out of line, and probably can't actually do this depending on the statute. I think if both of you agree you could file in one of the states where Adultery is grounds for immediate divorce. You H is a lawyer have him find a smart D attorney to give the judge a lesson in the law.

Why not offer to do a postnuptial agreement?

I don't know what your assests are, but you could be removed from the accounts and rather than joint accounts or whatever you have, he could be the owner, and you'd be the POD person. Or just list the kids as the beneficieries. It's about 1 phone call and 15 minutes of filling out forms. It can be easily changed back.

I personally wouldn't be comfortable with the latter option, but it is still an option.

I also believe it is possible for you to file some sort of separation agreement and financial settlement. I'm not very familiar with this but I think that is what people do when they have a waiting period, as in most states. Please just go talk to a good D attorney, they will be happy to take a fee and not have to deal with people sniping at each other. I'm wondering if your H would take it as a positive sign if you went out and took care of this for him. Of course you need to make it clear that you want to be married but are looking out for his wishes.

Not so far out of line. The judge’s decision, I mean. This state is a no-fault community property state but by law divorces are not granted when the wife is pregnant. Period. Does not even matter who the father is.

Legal separation is possible, here, to cover abuse cases. But not a divorce. Not until after the child is born.

Personally, I am all for a BS divorcing first and asking questions later. That is what I should have done.

She will do it again. This is who she is.

It doesn't have to be. She is capable of changing.

Absolutely CC...Thank you for pointing that out...

Mrs. W

I too have heard of states that won't grant a divorce IF the wife is pregnant. It is viewed as protecting the child.

People do change or are capable of changing, but they have to make that change no one can force them into it.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks everyone. A postnup is a possibility, but it can be less enforceable and would require much revisiting/redrafting to soundly meet legal requirements as time went on. I tried researching some online, and it looks like the judge was doing what she thought best for the family and not necessarily was the strongest argument legally. (We're in IL, and as far as I can tell IL doesn't have a law saying no divorce while the wife is pregnant.) Right now H and I are trying to figure out if there's any other way to give him the peace of mind he would have if the divorce had been granted today.

Counterintuitively, not being granted a legal divorce harms our reconciliation prospects. My H needs some relief, some feeling of protection, and without a legal divorce to provide that, we wonder if the next step is physical separation. If that happens, I will keep working on the things I need to fix, showing him the changes I'm making/how I'm changing for the better, practicing Dr. Harley's recovery philosophy/steps, and hoping for the best.

Also, thanks for the words of support regarding change - that's essentially my mantra, that I am not going to be that person and will do whatever it takes to ensure that's not me ever again.

Working through all of this stuff leaves me feeling there's not enough time in the day - maybe later today I'll have a chance to address some of the other points previous posters have brought up. In the meantime, thanks again.

B_S,

Ok, not getting a divorce is bothering him. I believe you said he is a lawyer right? Why don't you two sit down and discuss this realistically.

You are not getting divorced until the child comes. You are married NOW. You are in school right? He is working.

So why not a truce right now. Why not worry about the marriage per se', but simply discuss what you can do to make him comfortable right now, and he can do to make you comfortable. Why not date during the holiday season, enjoy one another and yourselves.

I know there is stress but you two cannot change what the judge ruled. He will not trust you even if you are divorced. Discuss a budget for you, the household, etc. Divorcing may protect him financially, but in reality if you two remarry he will have the same issues. If you don't remarry he will be paying child support, perhaps spousal support until you are finished with school.

My point, tell him to work hard for himself, but otherwise you would will settle for less money and more him in your life.

I know he is deeply hurt. I know he will NOT forget what has happened. I know he learn to trust you and love you IF you are trustworthy and a lovable person. It takes time, alot of time.

You cannot undo years of treating him badly in a few weeks, but you can undo it in a few years and decades IF you have the desire to do this.

There is so much to say, but it starts with you, new perspectives, new behaviors, and him understanding what is new and why. EVen then it will take a long time.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Nonsense. A BS does not need a divorce before they try to recovering their marriage.

Tell him you both need to be adult, individually, for each other, and the kids. That there is no purpose, or good being done by delaying the slow process of healing.

Ask BH if the both of you can use this time wisely.

I would caution you most strongly to not use this phrase.

Telling him he needs to be adult implies he is acting like a child.

I think, for you, it is imperative that you are respectful toward your husband. Your affair was the ultimate disrespect, and he likely feels slighted from the years of his giving and your taking. He is, I'm sure, feeling like you have no respect for him, and he will be hypersensitive to any kind of disrespect on your part.

I hope everything works out for you. I know what it's like to take someone for granted year after year, and I know the remorse that comes from that. You sound sincere to me, and willing to do whatever it takes to make up for what you did. Stay focused, and keep in mind that you CAN change. It will take work to overcome patterns of thought, habits and ingrained attitudes - but it CAN be done.

All the best,

You guys are a good support group, and have excellent suggestions and perspectives - thanks.

JL, you have a very good point - it would be difficult to undo the judge's ruling, and possibly counterproductive to spend time on that instead of our relationship. I think it's a fine balance that we need to find, and lots of it will take time. And while both my H and I would like a magic, immediate solution, we know that's not realistic. We/I talk a lot in terms of "20 years from now..." where everything has worked out, we have a relationship that's better than ever - hopefully that's what happens for us.

TR, as far as a BS not needing a divorce - I'm guessing it's a pretty individual thing. Certainly it's not a great thing that either my husband or I would be happy about, but if he feels that's one way to help him focus more on reconciliation, then I think it's worth it. Also, the documents that would go along with the legal divorce settle issues now, while we're not as emotional as we may be if things go south with the relationship. (e.g., issues about child custody, marital settlement/support, etc.) But JL's right, too - this may all be a moot point now, and we have to figure out how to proceed from here.

There was also a suggestion earlier to see if H would consider using the MB boards here as a resource. I think that's a good idea, a nice, real-life supplement to Dr. Harley's books. Is there a thread/section for how betrayed spouses (successfully) recover(ed)? I don't think he'd be opposed to checking things out here, but ultimately I think it comes down to me and how he feels about me, the changes I'm making, etc.

For any BSs out there, how do you (if you were able to) reconcile with the decision your WS made to have an affair? And what if your WS went back to the OM/W after you guys had started trying to fix things (regardless of whether you, the BS, knew about the affair at the time or not) -- how did that play out? (Yes, I did that. And knowing that, that I made that/those decisions when my husband was already hurting, is one of the worst feelings I think I will ever have. I will regret it and hate myself forever for doing that. And it's details like that that make this that much harder for my husband to decide whether it's worth it or not to come back.)

So, I guess that's enough of an update for now. Therapy in a little bit for me, then couples counseling tonight. Not with a MB therapist/counselor, but a good, insightful lady nonetheless. I still welcome any and all advice - thanks again.

BS2008,

I think it is actually pretty common for adulterers to slide back to their cheating partners. It probably does reduce your chances of recovery, sorry but I think that is true.

I have been thinking about your D issue. I am appalled at the judge but it may not be worth fixing it right now. I think you should sit down with your H and make a legal plan, write it all down and then see a D attorney to see what you can codify to help bring him some comfort. I bet you can file a legal and financial separation immediately and then do the D once the baby is born.

What is you H thinking regarding the baby? That little innocent child is going to have some rough time ahead.

Hi all -

Sorry for the lack of communication. Was out of town staying w/ my family (in very rural US) for the past week.

I think H and I have decided not much can be done about the legal divorce at this point, so we'll try and focus on moving ahead.

In the meantime, I have a few questions, if anyone would like to toss out answers or insight to these:

Question 1: BSs, is it always clear to you that you want your WS back? It seems like so much of the advice and plans put together by Dr. Harley are geared towards that mindset/those who've made that decision. (This is sort of a re-hash of the original subject of this thread, but wanted to see if there are any personal stories out there.)

Question 2: WSs, how do you learn to live with yourself - an A is always a part of your past, part of you, and how do you reconcile that w/ being a better person and moving forward?

So - faith, hope, hard work, and love. That's the game plan for now. Thanks, everyone

Welcome back BS2008,

1. There are lots of stories here where the BS did not want the WS back. Most of the people here recommend that both spouses wait until 6 mo after Dday to decide what they really want. Almost everyone recognizes the BS absolute right to demand a divorce and some of them do.

2. There are also alot of stories about WS living with themselves. I think both spouses will have a difficult road. One is always a cheater, and the other has always been cheated on.

You have a point, 6YL - I can see why people take time to really decide what they want, what will work, etc. I think it's hard for my H and I to do that and not feel pressure, especially with our 2nd child expected March/April of next year.

Another question: would people recommend the MB Weekend in January? How helpful is it post-A? How different is it, if at all, from Dr. Harley's books? Thinking about signing us up for it, but want to make sure it's not a rehash of what info we already have.

Thanks

BS2008,

Well I guess the overreaching judge gave you both the time to sort out your thoughts on this. I am sorry that this time of happiness with a new child on the way is tainted with pain for both of you. I have a child coming in my family with mixed feelings around it as well. It is difficult.

B_S,

I have never been to the Harley MB weekend, but everyone that writes here who have been there say it is very good. I will tell you this, they know this stuff and marriages backwards and forwards. If your H is willing I would urge you to try it.

B_S, one of the secrets of the Harley approach is that it provides time for WS and BS to cool off, look at things from a new perspective, and learn new and better ways to handle the difficulties in the marriage. Often the BS does not know if they want to save the marriage, but they think they might. Often the WS does not want to save the marriage, but after exposure, plan A, and even plan B, they begin to think they might.

The actual recovery and rebuilding is a years long process, but it starts with Harleys 4 rules for a good marriage, and it makes use of the policies of Radical Honesty and JOint Agreement. Dr. Harley even claims one should not divorce unless it is POJA'd.

Your H is going to go up and down on this issue for awhile. It is called the rollercoaster ride and it is not named that for nothing. At 6 months or so you can expect more anger, at a year, the BS often wonders to themselves "did I really do the right thing." You must realize that the person the BS trusts least is often themselves. Their self-image has been destroyed.

The person they loved was capable of lying to them but worse they were capable of fooling them. They often feel that their spouse has not found them "good enough", and that they cannot compete with OM. Add to this that you did not treat your H well before, and he ask to be asking himself. "Let's see she did not care for me, she just used me, she had an affair. Do I really want to sign up for more of this?"

The answer is YES IF, you gain new perspective on marriage and more specifically your H. It is YES, if you treat him differently, respect him, and begin to actually love him (love being actions not just words or feelings).

IN short he has doubts about you, but more about himself and what it would mean if he lets you back into his life.

I would see if he would go to the MB weekend. I would also show him by your actions that you are changed and see things differently. Actions mean much more than words, thus I would recommend few relationship talks for a few months, unless he wants to talk. I would however, recommend a lot of time together, fun, jokes, and less tension in the air. You are his W act like one...a loving one.

God Bless,

JL

Wow... I'll join the chorus and echo how odd it is that I've suddenly lost the past 10-11 months. It's like they never existed, yet it feels like we've been living this forever. I'm surprisingly unsettled.

But that's not why I'm posting today, so: I read a comment on another thread.


Just... I'm adding this to my list of comments, usually made by vets and particularly veteran BSs, that make me uneasy and fearful. (Another one that constantly runs through my mind is Mel's from a while back re: if she knew what she knows now, would she have married her H - and her answer was so unequivocally no, no matter what M they have now, no matter how good things may be, and I know my BH is of exactly the same mindset. Anyway, back to the point today...)

This gets me not because I feel like saying to my BH the equivalent of "get over it, or get out of here," but because I have those same fears that SC originally expressed. I was that person before, and I feel like being that person/having an A was like me welcoming in something evil that will now never go away. Like, I can control it and guard against it and make myself a better person on the outside - but it won't ever reach entirely, 100%, in totality to the inside because there will always be that stain there of who I was, of my adultery.

Let me try to say this another way: clearly, I had the A, so - at least at some point in time - I didn't think it was "bad enough." What if my judgment of adultery post-A will never be "low" enough? My decision to have an A also clearly exhibited a complete lack of compassion for my BS. What if I am never as compassionate as I can/should/need to be, as compassionate as normal/non-WS are?

I'm not really going anywhere w/ this post, just sharing my fears of being forever tarnished (true) and unable to rise above it, so to speak. I am NOT saying anything like "I think I will have an A again, I already messed up so what's the use now," etc. Also not suggesting at all that my BH should "just get over it." Just saying, I guess, that I have those same fears about myself that SC outlined from a BS's perspective.

Ugh, this bears repeating: I am NOT saying anything like "I think I will have an A again, I already messed up so what's the use now," etc. I'm probably going to get clobbered anyway...maybe the forum upgrades will include a smiley w/ a hardhat on...

Some folk NEVER get an apology. This slows restoration.

I suspect there is no apology because of pride and fear in their own hearts. I believe this defeats the concept of sharing ones failure with their partner. At some point, your partner must feel safe with you as you continue the process of radical sharing.

Part of the problem is that people need a radical sharing ear. This needs to be cultivated. I think that once this relationship develops, the affair questions will become incidental in the bigger revelation.

Changing topic. Your relationship with your husband was getting quite close at a point. How are you guys doing now?

B_S,

Is this you?

Is this what you do, or have regularly done? If not, then why are you identifying with it?

What I said about my feelings (and Mrs lg's possible feelings) were based on my H's, and lg's responses to our depression or triggers. I quoted from lg's post to show that his response, at least that once, might be felt as a lack of compassion by his wife, and indeed she might see it as his lack of responsibility for the affair. In my case, that perceived lack of compassion has contributed to my feelings about my H.

Those feelings cannot be taken out of context and applied to any and every worried and repentant FWS, like you. If the cap does not fit, why are you trying to squeeze into it?

B_S, stop making it sound as if another affair is out of your control. It is firmly within your control. Of course you can rise above what you once were; just choose to behave well from now on. You were an adulterer because of what you DID, not because of some essence within you that is part of who you are.

I can understand why you might worry about how H sees you (for a while, at least, but this will change); what I don't understand is why you worry about what you really are. There is no mystery to this; commit fully to protecting your H and rebuilding your marriage, and even if the marriage fails, you will never again be an adulterer.

You deserve far more credit than you are giving yourself. Now please stop agonising, because you are beginning to sound self-indulgent. Find someone to model yourself on and take control of who you are in the future. I recommend Mrs Wondering as that model.

PS, that was a harsh post, S_B, because I'm shouting in your ear trying to make you understand. I believe in the possibility of marital rebuilding. It works when both spouses commit to it, and each learns what to do to protect the other. It has not fully happened for me and might not for you, but don't let that be because you stay paralysed with fear and self-doubt. Your H might one day let you back in. Show compassion to him when he hurts and from this minute on, be the wife that you should always have been.

S_B,

You and your H are young. Yes you will be "stained" with what you have done, but perhaps not the way you think you will be. YOu feel that "stain" now, but in the years to come, that "stain" can turn into something far different. You and your H are too young yet to understand, that often what makes a person is NOT their mistakes but how they address those mistakes, learn from them, and change their lives.

I really don't like bringing religion into this, and perhaps what I am about to say exists in other religions and it is just my ignorance. But, in the Christian faith, there is the concept of "grace", of granting someone forgivness that they cannot possibly ever make up for what they did. An act of "grace" is doing just that.

You cannot make up for what you did. You cannot redo what you did. You cannot erase from your H's mind what you did. BUT, you can become a person you are proud of. You can be a great mother, eventually a fine and compassionate physician, and for sure they type of woman that any man would be proud to call their W. That is YOUR job.

Your H's if he chooses is to eventually through an act of "grace" grant you forgiveness and a second chance at being the W and mother you can and want to be. He does not have to do this and he may not be strong enough to do it. But, it is there for him to do IF he decides to.

So why am I talking to you about something your H can or perhaps won't do? I am telling you this because your affair no matter how poorly it reflects on you is NOT a death sentence. It is not even a marriage ender, or a family destroyer, IF you use what you learn wisely. There is a path by which your H can grant you what you will need so that you are not "stained" forever by what you did. You will be changed but not stained.

I hope that through all of this you will gain the maturity to see the future what it is...yours to live. I hope that your H gains the maturity to understand the concept of acting with "grace", while realizing you cannot "make up" for what you did, but you can change and be the W you both want and need you to be.

You are not ruined, you are "just learning".

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

imagine - Thank you for your points. And thank you for asking how we're doing! Things are going well, I think. It's different being 1 year+ out from D-day, and while not every day is a complete walk in the park, the rollercoaster's extreme ups and downs are fewer and farther between.

A lot of this "things going well" is due to the fact that we have children together - they're the reason my BH decided to stay and see if this can work. We are planning for the future, making some serious life decisions (work, where we'll live, etc.), and we are actually having some good days along the way!

If this continues, I wonder what kind of M we'll have in 2 years...10 years... 20 years... !

SC - Thank you, I needed that.

You wrote:

You are absolutely right, and I should acknowledge that, yes, unequivocally, the decision to have an A is (and always was) in my control, and I have promised myself and my BH that that will never happen again.

You captured my (unfounded and downright silly) worry w/ the part I quoted in red. I think I'm feeling tainted and changed/different because of that - I never thought I could do something like this, yet I did, and so who am I as a person?

But you're right. I don't need to be sitting here creating all of these worries and being paralyzed w/ fear and emotion and depression. Instead I need to learn and work to be the person I want to be and the wife my H deserves.

I think the downer days and crazy thoughts are partially due to the "dualing recoveries" conflict. I did this, I can't recover "faster" than my BH, I can't move past this and leave him behind in it - and thus follow the crazy thoughts. My H does a very good job of talking me through this stuff, and I need to be realistic and just be sure we keep communicating.

But now: I am off to find my bootstraps...

J_L - You bring up many things I need to keep in mind, and summed things up nicely:


I did a ruinous thing, and while some days may seem bleak and full of nothing but complete ruination, there is a more healthy, balanced perspective to take - and that's that I should work on being a good person and the W my H needs/deserves. I'm learning.

B_S, I have never written to you before, but so much of what you wrote earlier, wondering if the stain would be forever, wondering if it would ever "be enough," so to speak, sounded like me. I had an A a little over 3 years ago, and for a long, long time, I thought I would wear a scarlet letter forever. These are some things that helped me:

Initially (and you have already done these) - owning what you have done, taking responsibility, repenting, being honest. This is big. Do you realize how many people cheat and never tell or just walk away? The fact that you are still here fighting says at least as much about you today as the affair.

In the process - focusing on my marriage, not just what I had done. This was the real key for us. I was always willing to have my husband talk, vent, ask, etc. about the affair. But I found that when out side of those times my main focus was us and not what I did, I was a better wife, and H felt better too.

Recently - it has been three years, and I know who I am. And it is more than what I did. I am a married mother of two, not a woman who cheated three years ago. And though I will never minimize the gravity of that choice, I will not live under it any more, and I will not let someone else put me under it. That took guts for me. I was afraid if I stood up like that (inside), that it meant I wasn't still sorry for the affair. It was actually my husband who broke those chains a few weeks ago. And they have been broken ever since.

If you know in your heart of hearts that you are doing and being all you can as a wife and mother, and if you and your H are committed to each other and recovery, then don't let anything distract you. This journey is tough, but it can be exciting too.

I posted this on my thread, but it seems to fit here too. My H wrote it on his FB page.
Life is like Searut's painting, "A Sunday Afternoon on the Isle of Grande Jatte." It's made up of a bunch of beautiful dots and a bunch of ugly dots. But, you can't see the beauty in the painting and it doesn't come into focus unless you back away from it. Once you are far enough away, you will see that the dots work together to create shapes of people enjoying a lazy Sunday afternoon beside the sea. So, remember to not stare at the ugly blobs...back away from the painting and see the big picture.

Lurioosi - thank you for this. I'm happy that you and your H are coming out of this together, and that the scarlet letter feelings are diminishing (in a good way, not in a "forget it ever happened" kind of way!). There is hope!

I especially am grateful for your advice. You're right that focusing on the M - and not just my A and what it did to us - is huge. I realize that, as you pointed out about your experience, that when I am more present in the M (and not in the past of the A) I am a better wife, mother, homemaker, and me. I struggle with this, though, and the feeling that I can't move past the A - that if I stop dwelling in the A, and my BH is clearly still recovering from it, that I'm not paying my dues, not offering just compensation/suffering, not being repentant enough. I think this is where your 3rd point comes into play:


I need to find this balance. And I need to trust what my BH says re: all of this and stop being ruled by my crazy thoughts! Your H's simile is appropriate - I need to look at the big picture and stop focusing on just the ugly dots that go into it.

Thanks again for the words of wisdom and experience. It helps - and it would probably help if I stopped emoting all over MB!

Moved to recovery at thread starters request.

Figured it's time to stop worrying about jinxing things if I requested this move to Recovery... And thought my occasional emoting on MB would be better-suited to here than the SAA forum.

So... It's good and scary to be here! (Thanks for the move, mods!)

Welcome to recovery

We're a quiet, gentle lot over here, very serious and prone to moments of great introspect...

oh wait, thats not recovery at all

welcome anyway

So what you're saying is... more like this? -->

Ha, I've always wanted to use those smilies. Thanks for the opportunity, Lil - and the welcome!

Glad you're here. There are some crazy people here - not me of course.

Then I will fit right in!

Hi B_S - long time no see
glad you are joining us in recovery;
its much quieter and calmer, in my opinion
well except for all the crazies over here but i am definitely NOT one of them

ok, i am. i lied. lol

Hi ivetz! I can see the Recovery crowd is a rather staid bunch of old fogies...

I lurk more than I post, and tend to hit up my thread only when I have questions/notions bugging me or am having one of those crazy emotional moments/days. Hopefully that style fits in w/ the Recovery forum!

Also: it looks like things continue on the up and up for you and your H - I'm glad!

Hi BS

Yes you definitely fit here well.
Glad you are here

I have read some of your posts B_S2008, and there , at least to me ( and I could be wrong) seems to be a real sense of "desperation on your part. i can understand that, but I'm concerned that if my interpretation of your feelings are correct, and you and your husband are able to reconcile, what will happen when this sense of "desperation" is no longer there? That's what I'm worried about with my husband- he cheated, I found out, he was facing the idea of his family being shattered, and it terrified him. We are back together, but now that things are "settling down' a bit, what will happen? Will he simply fall back into the old routines that alowed the whole crisis to happen in the first place? That's what I worry about for you when I read your posts.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you can't change- it sounds as if it was much more of a ' things were comfortable and I thought they were okay" thing that a fundamental personality flaw in you. you sound like a decent person who really wants her family to be together and is trying hard, even though it must be really painful for you, to make it happen. As weird as it may sound, I am finding out that, even though I didn't cheat on my husband, and nothing excuses his behavior, if I want things to work then I have to hold up my end of things too, and carry myy share of the load. your husband will have to do that too- even though he is probably vrey hurt and very angry ( i know I am)

I really do hope you are able to work things out and be happy.It sounds like you really do love your husband- it's too bad there wasn't some way that he could see that without his sight being clouded by hurt and anger.

i dont know why this assessment of BS bothers me.

maybe i am just out to lunch right now. i'll re-review later.

I was one of those "desperate" BS's who wanted nothing more than to recover my M. Looking back now at those early months after D-Day with nearly 3-1/2 years' perspective, I understand what coldinthenorth means. I worked SO hard for SO long before my FWH "got" it that discouragement was a part of my daily reality.

When my boat was finally "righted," I did sometimes wonder whether I'd made the right choice...what I'd done all that for. Happily for me, my FWH and our M, that was about the time he actually DID begin to get it. And he started showing me. It was a very difficult couple of years, but we are finally good. *I* am finally good.

The BS heals when the WS "gets" it, and does what he/she is supposed to do long enough and well enough that trust is restored and the BS's resentment fades. And sometimes that takes a long time indeed.

And the BS must do his/her share.

t/j

waving to rightherewaiting

end t/j

coldinthenorth -

"Desperation" is an appropriate term, and that very correctly describes many of my posts. However, (there is always a 'but' - or, I guess, a 'however'!), I tend to post on my thread when I'm experiencing one of those really low lows on the recovery rollercoaster. That means I'm feeling/acting/trying to contain my emotionally crazed self, and it certainly can come across as desperation. It also does no favors to my BH - he tends to be portrayed in a much more dire and uncommitted light than is really the case.

While this type of desperation is, as you allude to, a motivator (e.g., to end the A, change, actively do "whatever it takes" to recover), such desperation also reflects a degree of emotional immaturity - and, really, overall maturity - that engenders doubt and insecurity re: the ability to affair-proof and protect the M.

I cannot speak to what will happen w/ your FWH now that things are "settling down," (and thus you worry about losing the immediacy of that desperation as motivation) but it is something that my BH and I are aware of and have discussed several times. I don't want to get complacent and risk a repeat of our "Summer of Fun" (as we like - not really - to call it). The big thing to take away is that, yes, desperation when you're faced w/ losing everything you hold dear is a powerful motivator for change, but you have to couple that w/ the lessons and precautions and self-discovery to be able to make that a lasting change.

So ... I think my "desperate" posts are more the product of the emotions of recovery w/ what I did, and are not always an accurate portrayal of the state of things here. (I'm using a lot of words to not say much, aren't I? )

Oh, and one other note: a fair number of posts were lost in the recent server crash/file corruption, and there were (believe it or not!) some there that weren't quite so rife w/ desperation and woe is me and the sky is falling theatrics. Things are settling down a bit here, too, and I now tend to keep it together more than not.

Would you characterize your FWH's desperation any differently? Does he do anything in particular that worries you re: his ability to protect the M?

ivetz, do you mean BS as in "betrayed spouse," or B_S as in me? If it's me, here are my thoughts on being unsettled reading posts...

I sometimes read other posts and am unsettled by them because I'm fearful of the A happening all over again. Let me explain.

Never, not in a million years, at the time of the A did I think I would ever be that person. Certainly, looking back now, I can see where I had weak boundaries, I can trace a very obvious erosion of boundaries, lack of extraordinary care of my BH/M, flaws in myself, etc. It's only after the A that I see these things, though, and see that I was a person capable of that - in short, I didn't know myself AT ALL, and there are some posts that hit me a certain way and make me think "Wait, what if that's me too? What if I am capable of that? What if, what if, what if?"

A prime example of this is one of my emotionally crazy posts earlier on this thread, and SugarCane promptly reminded me to stop creating problems, stick w/ learning and making positive progress, and, in short, stop being a ninny. So I try to do that.

Or...maybe by your post you meant you're more optimistic for me and more confident in my ability to recover than the original post may have suggested?

Or...maybe you meant BS as in "betrayed spouse," and then just disregard what I've previously written.

I can't seem to type a concise post. Gah!

#1 - H asked me the other night about SF. Specifically, he asked what changed re: my approach/willingness between pre-A and post-A. My response was that I had failed to give SF its full importance pre-A, and instead treated it as more of a physical need that didn't take precedence over that many things. (Not entirely, but it was mostly relegated to a physical act for either me or H at my "deigning.") Now it's quite the opposite, and SF is much more about the emotional connection, making sure his (and my!) needs are met, valuing the experience and showing him that.

On to the question: when I asked him if anything was different re: SF for him, he gave the opposite answer. Pre-A, there was much more of an emotional component to it. Post-A, it's really just satisfying a physical need for him.


#2 - I (and I think my BH, haven't asked him about this yet) still spend a lot of time grieving. We'll never have the M we did, and while it wasn't great, it was good in ways that we don't have now (e.g., trust, purity, dreams/goals).



So... Anybody have any similar experiences? How did it fit into your recovery? Do those feelings change? (I suspect they will always linger for both of us, but will they have more of an occasional, background-type presence?) Any other thoughts anyone wants to include?

bs2008

Marriages are healed as are people. People are left with a scar that can be seen. An affair leaves a scar. An invisible scar. Though it is still seen. Time causes one to not notice this scar just as other scars. Though with all scars they get noticed from time to time and one triggers.

You will never have your old marriage back. You will never have the old trust level back. You can come close to achieving the old level of trust though by working at rebuilding it.

What are you doing to repair this trust?

And, there is no reason why you can not dream together for the future. Your BH may not be able to go back to the old one's.

So just build new one's.

Last, recovery takes two to five years. Things can be good but they will never go back to the way things were.

TheRoad - thank you for the gentle reminder that things can get better. I have patience and hope for what I call our "20 years down the road" life - I just wish sometimes that it was here already.

To repair trust, I'm employing EPs and exercising RH. You're right that the old level of trust will never come back, and even Dr. H says we should not place that type of blind trust in our spouse - it's something to grow accustomed to, like a scar.

H and I have talked a bit about this: our M is better in some ways now, and it could continue to improve; however, no matter how good it gets we don't know how it could be "worth" the pain of adultery.

Sorry, I'm usually more upbeat than this. (Because I try not to dwell on things w/ negative and/or unchangeable answers to them... ) Just a few down days on the rollercoaster.

Not much to update other than the new display name. It's a 'joke' in reference to that nauseatingly juvenile, self-centered, and hurtful way in which waywards are wont to express themselves whereby, during my A, I complained that I "couldn't just have vanilla."

Yeah... Here, allow me:

So that's that, fyi! I will most likely now continue to lurk like the best of 'em, and throw in my mostly unnecessary and personal experience-heavy $.02 here and there.

Did the divorce go through?

Have you remarried?

The (legal) divorce did go through, though the legal paperwork is the only change in the M. Religiously we are still married, still acting married, still attempting recovery, still parenting, still ... well, everything. Just in the eyes of the government we are no longer married.

H and I "joke" about our marital status occasionally, (in the way that sometimes our only healthy recourse is humor), so the bonding over divorce is a silver lining... ?

Just keeping this around.


Thread here.

Infrequent update. I lurk quite a bit, randomly post now and then, but rarely update here because there doesn't seem to be anything different or beyond what seems to be par for the course.

This is pretty much in keeping with that. BH and I were talking last night - a harder talk than we have had in a while - and I realized that it's been just over a year and a-half since D-day...and yet, it feels like ages. I still have hope that the rest of our lives can be better, and that he will feel happy again one day, yet it is hard - especially for him, obviously - to agree when it seems like our life has become nothing but surviving the aftermath of my infidelity. In particular, he feels no joy, no happiness, no sense of wanting to take on life and succeed. His drive from before is dampened/gone. He's giving and giving for the kids, and feels his life holds nothing of joy for himself.

We are talking about making some big life decisions. BH changing careers, partly because of general dissatisfaction with where he is now, moreso for a new start after the A. We are quite financially stable w/ where he is now, so it makes the career jump a more scary consideration.

This summer I have to submit my final decision re: medical school. We are both reluctant to let it go - not because either of us are dying for me to be a doctor, (although it does give BH some comfort and insurance against those who would judge him that I would have a way to take care of myself/the kids if/when he leaves), but because it's that we'd be letting go of a safety net.

Ugh. It's an impossible situation.

I started reading this thread from the beginning, my head has started bobbing, not from your thread but it's late here and I'm tired.
I cheated and skipped to the last few posts. (plus I'm a pathetically slow reader, and editor of posts and ..... I could go on, lol)

I agree with The Road's analogy about the scar as it relates to R.
Many of us have grieved the loss of the old M, you know what though, do we really want that old M or do we want a new and improved version?
Set your sights on rebuilding a stronger M, one that is concrete based on honesty, care and protection. It's possible, it's just not fast.
The turtle won the race, remember that. One step at a time.

I'm sorry that your BH is struggling, I feel for him.
Does he read here at all?
Does he realize that your A is not his fault?

I know that this place has helped me sort through so many of the emotions and questions that I've had in this process.
And it is a process, an ever changing one.
I don't really know where I'd be right now in my own R, had I not found this forum.

okay, I'm really tired now ..... good night!

This made me smile. I do get pretty tiresome, don't I? The same "woe is me" and "all is so bleak and hopeless." It's a reflection of the lows of recovery and the associated emotions.

Most days I am able to maintain a fair degree of hope regarding the impossibly slim chance of recovery, but every now and then (particularly after the more raw talks w/ BH, wherein he discloses his desire for a clean break, describes life in such bleak terms, and I see all over again the impossibly difficult situation I have put us all in), I feel quite hopeless and depressed.

And then I come here, and post accordingly:

Intellectually I know - and even advocate to BH - the ups and downs of recovery, how our goal is to build a new and better M, how it will be a lifetime of work - it's just that sometimes I need someone (helloooo, MB!) to support me a bit when I am feeling more hopeless.

BH used to read here a fair amount - I'm not sure if he does anymore. Mostly time and triggers are responsible. And, to answer your other question, he does know my A was not his fault. In fact, it was so entirely not his fault that it makes it even more impossible for him to accept any kind of recovery with me. It's the loss of his dignity coupled with the complete way my A has tainted our history, relationship, future...

Boy, I'm good at this hopeless and depressing stuff, aren't I? As you said, V, recovery is possible, just not fast. I sometimes merely need support and reminders of that when my own hope has taken a beating. Thanks for offering that.

For my records:

***
Original here.


***
The part of my reply that I didn't post there:

I totally get this:

Or, in the event that step is taken, to at least help facilitate some recovery, somehow, whether it's personal or marital. It's like seeking out your own redemption.

For future reference:

GreenMile's thread.

Juuuust keeping this gem around:


Thanks, luri!

Original here.

Not really posting much of an update, as things are still the same re: "recovery." H just discussed w/ me the other day how he still sees us going our separate ways as the best option for both of us, eventually.

I admit I was hoping that he might be more on the fence about that kind of decision, though ultimately I'm not surprised at all that he still feels that way.

My concerns are growing re: my Taker, though. I've noticed my Taker seems to be cataloguing perceived slights and insults lately - before, my Giver let anything potentially hurtful slide right by, and I don't even remember those instances. Now, though, they stick in my mind...and they do hurt.

And now that they are there, especially on "down" days, I find myself revisiting them - like picking at a scab, reliving the hurt, making myself feel worse.

Pep posted something I found utterly jaw-dropping on WPG's thread a while back:


My word, this goes on in my mind almost all of the time -- certainly more often than not. It's DJ'ing my DH to assume what he's thinking, yet my feelings are more and more turned to hurting, painful, miserable thoughts in light of his words and actions.

The other day, when he was talking about separating eventually, he cited his feeling that I need a real bond in a relationship, and that I would be happier once we separated and I could go and find that kind of relationship - that he is just not able to give me that.

I acknowledged that, yes, I want that bond, and, yes, we don't have that right now. But that's okay. I'm not expecting it anymore, and probably won't ever expect it again. Sure, it would be nice, and I think it's entirely possible - but if it doesn't happen, I'm still fine with us.

Sorry, not sure where I'm going with this. This is one of those "downs."

So he has no desire to make you're marriage work? How much marriage counseling have you been to? What is he waiting on to separate?

How hard is it to get a post-nuptial aggreement and do they hold up in court?

I_P, we are already legally D'd -- something he asked for and I gave him after D-day. He has no spousal support and full custody of the kids per the D docs.

In his words, he doesn't think I could've done anything more after D-day -- it's just that the infidelity is too much to overcome. We counseled w/ Steve 5 or 6 times, and H is familiar w/ the MB program. We have a very good relationship right now, just not the bond of a truly intimate relationship.

The last we discussed, (some time ago), the plan is H will stay 'til the kids are in college. That's no guarantee, just the rough plan.

I know I brought this on myself, and that it is a very natural consequence of my actions. Just figuring out how to navigate it all.

The last we discussed, (some time ago), the plan is H will stay 'til the kids are in college. That's no guarantee, just the rough plan.

Well, it may not be what you want, but it's more than your actions have earned, and it MAY be enough.

Look, you're 29, so I'd guess, on the outside, your children are about 10. You'll have him more-or-less exclusively for almost a decade, before his "plan" to leave will be ready for implementation.

So......get to WORK! You start NOW being the PERFECT wife. You appreciate him for his efforts, you bury him in EN satisfiers, you learn to cook his favorite foods, enjoy his favorite movies, and laugh at his worst jokes.

YOU need a plan (ignoring his) for how to maximise the love and strength of your marriage. And here's the kicker - You have to do it all. Expect nothing from him (that way any effort he does make will be a "bluebird").

By rights, a BS has every right to bail at D-Day; yours hasn't. Instead of pining away for a long-term deal (btw: you HAD one once, remember?), you'd better start making your day-to-day performance so attractive (Think "Scheharazade" or "Dread Pirate Roberts") that HE changes his mind about his plan when the time comes, or better yet, forgets it entirely.

NG, thank you for pointing out, albeit obliquely, how much my post was entitled and whining.

My intent in posting was not to say "Oh, poor me, my BH isn't STAYING!" My point was to identify that my Taker is getting a little impatient, and to hear strategies in how to deal with that, get support, something. Perhaps as the WS, I am not entitled to support - I completely understand why.

You are absolutely right re: the plan you laid out, and that is what I'm adhering to thus far - and what I plan to for the time DH IS here. My problem is expectations, though I've pretty successfully disabused myself of any notion of happy coupledom-like expectations. As you noted, even those are more than I have earned. Believe me, you're preaching to the choir. (Sorry, WPG, but you don't have a corner on the self-flagellation! )

MV,
My advice is to treat any positive response from your BH as irrelevent to your efforts (with one exception.) In the main, do EVERYTHING you can to remind him a)why he fell in love with you and married you, and b)why any future without you would sub-optimize his own happiness.

The exception I noted above is that you will get better results by monitoring and adjusting your efforts to improve their effectiveness as you do detect any reaction from him.

You can do this. It will not be easy. You may falter in your commitment to the process if his position does not seem to waver from his current hard line. That's when you come back here, and we'll re-energize your thrusters, okay?

Mrs. Vanilla,

You have hung in there for a long time, your husband hasn't left I agree I think you can sway him back to you in the years to come, little by little, have you considered asking him for the things you need explain to him that if he is going to stay until the kids are gone you will need something from him.........tell him you do understand his feelings but you are a person that needs something too.....
Tell him if he still wants to go then that you will let him go then.........ask him to just enjoy each others company become friends again............
I think sooner or later he will come around......be the wife he wants to come home to.

Lol @ NG.

Mrs. V is definitely in a Dread Pirate Roberts situation.

"Good work today, Mrs V. I shall surely leave you in the morning..."

(Princess Bride if you ain't seen it, V)

lol - love "The Princess Bride"!!!

Mrs. V, I don't really have anything helpful to add, but you've been so wonderful to me with your advice and support I just wanted to say I am thinking about you and I can certainly empathize!

I wonder sometimes if, after what we did, our BH's don't truly believe they can give us what we need - in reading back over your thread again, and thinking about some of the things my H has said, and reading some of the words of BH's here...forgive me if I start stepping into DJ territory here:

None of us instinctually "knew" what made a good M. My H and I, for example. His parents' M was horrible. My parents' M was good, but (knowing what I know now) they weren't a perfect M either. So our BH's did what they thought they needed to do to be good H's. What they thought was their best effort could not stop either you or I from having an A - even though logically they can understand that our A's were not their fault, there's this nagging little voice that tells them that their best was not good enough, and add that to the fact that we absolutely destroyed the trust they had in us, I can understand why our BH's would throw up their hands and say, "what's the point? I gave my best, and it wasn't good enough!" Maybe it is that catastrophizing thing again, or something else...but I get a feeling sometimes that my H doesn't believe he can meet my needs...maybe deep down inside he didn't believe he was "enough" before and in his eyes, my A confirmed that for him. I dunno. I'm probably perilously close to DJ'ing so I'll stop. What I hope is that if I keep trying, if I keep fighting for him, that he'll realize he is worth the world to me, and that one day, he will see himself through my eyes and know that he is amazing.

I'm just rambling tonight...but if nothing else, maybe I'll give you a little nudge to keep up the fight, just like you have nudged me along!

WPG absolutely right on the money with that post. I have felt all those things and still do on bad days. Was that marriage even real? Are we capable of recovery? Yes, we can recover but can I make myself truly available to her a hundred percent? And the kicker - why do that? Why not just walk - take what I learned here and build the rolls royce of marriages with someone new? Without the baggage? Without anything to overcome?

I have a reason, just like both your husbands. It took me an hour a night this week to finally get the little monster to bed.

Great post WPG, you really get it. Would be nice if you told me some of that came from Steve so I know my wife understands it too.

Thank you, NG. This is my hope - (I have few of those left, but this is one of them!) - that, hopefully by "decision time," the marriage will be the more attractive option.

Oh, and: Dread Pirate Roberts, lol. It has been YEARS since I watched The Princess Bridge.

jessi, you are always so kind when you post. Thank you. Asking him for what I need is...hard. And necessary, I know, especially as I felt I couldn't do this pre-A and during the A. (Not for any reasons related to him, just my own twisted mental thought processes.)

I think it has come to the point where I need to express myself, but I guess it's akin to what WPG has mentioned on her thread: if you ask, and if you don't like the answer, well... It saves the pain of disappointment and dashed expectations and depression that will inevitably come if I don't like the answer by not asking at all. Which are poor reasons for not raising the issue w/ DH, and expectations are my own problem to control in the first place.


Exactly right, that's what I needed to be reminded of. And that's all the more reason to get the bad days and expectations under control. And, as NG said, come here for a boost as needed.

Thanks for weighing in, WPG. DH expressed some of these sentiments early on, though overall I think it's not so much self-doubt (for lack of a better term) as it is risk. Just the other night, DH phrased it accordingly: if there's even a 1% chance of enduring all he did during the A, then no way. No. Way. It was that bad for him.

And I can't blame him. I created our impossible situation, as we're fond of calling it. As long as my Taker keeps that thought front and center, and as long as I keep any hopes/expectations in check, then maybe the down days won't be so bad. (I think I've told you something similar before - easier said than done, I know!)

Ahh, DH and I have also discussed this. Hurtful to hear, but still because of the obvious: the infidelity that I introduced into the M.

And you know, if DH can never be truly 100% there, I'm okay with how much he is here now. Most days, anyway. For those others, I need to either speak up, like jessi said, or shut my Taker up. Or both.

Thanks, all of you, for weighing in. Am feeling better today - DH and I had date night last night, and we did a 10-mile run. If I'm tough enough to do that, what's a little depression in recovery every now and then?

Also, whether you guys said it directly or not, you've reminded me of another way to tame my Taker, and that is: perspective. Not w/ the depression, that makes for a miserable wife to come home to, but overall remembering my place in all of this, as well as DH's.

Just keeping this around:


Thread here.

I've had this idea tumbling around in the back of my mind for a while - the idea that DH and I are three years out from D-day, and that it's a marker of sorts, and that I should post something. However, that's about as far as my cogent thoughts on this go.

I know one thing for sure: it wasn't until this last year that things really started to level out a bit, it seems. More steady, "good" days, fewer and less drastic lows on the recovery rollercoaster. I think DH and I have in many ways reached a sort of acceptance - that this is what it is, we can't change it, we can just keep our heads down and move forward.

I've given up my expectations - the lows on the coaster finally beat them all out of me, I think. It makes things easier for everyone, I believe, but I also feel bad identifying that I have no more expectations - I somehow feel selfish, I think, and not as abased or "sorry enough." The point is a bit difficult for me to articulate, but I think the feeling translates to: if I don't feel emotionally anguished, then it must mean I've moved on from the affair and I'm leaving my DH to his anguish on his own.

We've had some periods over the last year that have been really good, and a handful of times where it seems we're actually both feeling that "in love" feeling - at least, more connected that way than most of the time over the past few years.

Upon reflection, that statement requires clarification: those particularly connected times I'm thinking of seem to be when the cloud of infidelity has been dispelled for a bit. We enjoy each other and the moment more, I think, and don't have so many of those thoughts at the back of our minds as usual. Of course, I'm hypothesizing about DH here, and I know he and I both think about the affair on a daily basis still - there is no "getting over it," that's for sure.

Another thing: my infidelity is shaping the direction of our lives, certainly. We decided medical school had to happen. There are a number of reasons - we will have a stable career in the family if I am a doctor, and DH can then be free to explore his own career change. The kids will be provided for, and so will I - a point that DH feels he needs to safeguard in the advent of his departure from the marriage.

He and I both identify that me being a homemaker is a far better family environment, but long-term it may not be wise to give up the medical career.

There are many triggers this all brings back, though - the schedule, the stressors, the demands on the family and time. DH insists on guarding against things I could later hold against him, should I ever go wayward again. To that end, he takes on more things than I would like him to. My Taker, of course, is happy to get study time. My Giver is wretched. I am trying to balance this, and I have to actively work on this area so that DH hopefully feels comfortable in letting me do more that I would like to - cooking, cleaning, whatever.

Things are pretty cursory with my family. DH has no relationship with them anymore, and if that does ever change, I know DH will always be guarded in those interactions.

As usual, this is getting long, and I'm not really saying much. I guess the update is: marginal improvement in Year 1, marked improvement in Year 2, and major improvement in Year 3. I hope the trajectory stays positive.

Our Dday was June 18, 2008. you described our own family to a near T! not the careers, but the dynamics.

CV

A few points that stick out that I've highlighted here.

"The kids will be provided for, and so will I - a point that DH feels he needs to safeguard in the advent of his departure from the marriage."

Reverse this, and you have NGB. She had been going through all this mad planning about going into school, getting a good career, etc...

Why?

Not for if, but for when I "decided to leave." It isn't a question, it's a guarantee in her mind.

Recovery is an all-or-nothing endeavor. She doesn't want to go to school because she really wants to have a career, or because she wants higher pay. She is safeguarding against my checking out.

What would this mean?

It would mean that the path followed to attain this safeguard would be a drain and constant trigger, rather than something that adds to or bolsters the marriage, or our recovery.

Once this was discussed honestly, it was pretty simple; the only way this will be a benefit is in the event of repeat infidelity, from which separation and divorce would be immediate and unpleasant. If recovery is the goal, than the plan is to move forward on a path of recovery, not the direct contingency for failure, which will only put strain on both our recovery and the marriage.

She wants to be a SAHM, this is why I will attain the highest level of education available, which is what I want to do either way.

"DH insists on guarding against things I could later hold against him, should I ever go wayward again."

This is pain and fear, and/or fear of pain speaking. It is the residual damage of fogbabble.

Yes, fogbabble is BS. You probably can't remember half of what you heaped on him... but he can. And it hurts.

This fear is a cage.

This fear is why I typed up an EP "contract."

To let go of that fear, I had to lay out what my exact plan with future infidelity is, what her plan for avoiding future infidelity is, and what the aftermath would include.

Here is the simplicity; she can attempt to resent or hold against me any grievance she wishes for any repeat infidelity, and it will be met with - an empty home.

That fear had to go if I am to free myself to fall in love with my wife again. You cannot fall in love without vulnerability, you cannot be vulnerable when you are paralyzed with fear. Not to mention, constant fear makes Radical Honesty increasingly difficult, and can create "trouble avoidance."

Time to stop testing the water and jump in.

lol, HHH, I agree 100% - thank you for articulating that so well from your perspective as a BH, and from your and NGB's recovery journey.

DH and I long ago identified what it would take to overcome the infidelity, and putting aside that fear, "freeing himself to fall in love with me again," are just not going to happen. He has no appetite for that risk.

Of course, I still hope that changes. I've given up expecting any of it, and, as I said, it helps maintain a more steady-state that way.

For us, DH was the one pushing for the return to medical school. We tried this last year, and it was very much in the context of not if, but when he leaves the marriage. This time around, it is more along the lines of tackling a problem as a unit - unhappiness with his career/overall life path (driven by my infidelity to the point of intolerability) and wanting to somewhat safely explore alternatives. If I have a career as a doctor, he is free to do that. Hopefully with family intact.

(That, and a mention here and there of how I don't get to be the SAHM with the perfect life that I want while he's been dealt a more than crummy hand by me and still has to work and toil in a job that he doesn't want anymore. Those remarks hurt, though I understand and have no defense against them. He's right. I owe him.)

My motto now: it is what it is. This year was better. I know DH's "contract" would match yours, HHH, re: consequences of future infidelity, but I don't know if it will ever include the leap to really loving me again. I'll just keep hoping (albeit minimally, as the resultant depression is no fun for anybody), and keep updating...

(((Mrs_V)))

No real advice, but started thinking, from my little corner of the world...

Such bitter irony that the ones we allow closest to our hearts are the ones who can do the most damage. The ones who can love us the best can also hurt us the deepest. I can completely understand why my H does not want to allow himself to be vulnerable with me, because, after how I wounded him, he fears the pain that I can inflict on him. Honestly, I'm in kind of the same place now with my own feelings, even though I realize that the pain I feel is nothing compared to what I gave him. I am sure there are plenty of people who would say I deserve whatever pain my H inflicts on me. Regardless, I can definitely say I have slowly started to withdraw from H...that whole "you're not worth it" comment he made to me didn't help, and now my father's death has made me close off further, to the point where I am actually afraid to open up and share any of my feelings with him, because just as I did to him, he has the ability to hurt me more than anyone else in the world.

That said (I posted it before, and I kind of like it) :


I'm certainly not in recovery, and probably never will be, so I cannot be a shining example here, but yeah, to love and be loved - truly loved - in return, we have to be vulnerable. That goes for FBS and FWS alike. We can put in place safeguards to help our BH's feel that it is safer to be vulnerable, like EPs, but in the end, the BH is still exposing their soft underbelly.

I for one hope that Mr. V decides to let himself be completely vulnerable to you again, and allows himself to fall back in love with you.

Aw, thanks for your thoughts, WPG. You guys are too kind to me here.

DH and I were talking about the med school thing, and how my preference would still be to stay home. He and I both ruefully acknowledged that it could happen, provided I knew a way to turn back time.

Too bad I/we don't, huh?

The CSL quote is interesting. It is a writing of his I have pondered before. He wrote it after Joy died.

Keep your heart safe is good advice. It�s could be said it�s biblical: Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life. (Proverbs 4:23)

CSL is not just talking about romantic love. He may not be talking about romantic love at all. The full quote in context does not refer to romance, marriage or the meeting of ENs in any way. He is talking about a higher love. Love that compares to romantic love as selflessness, caring and compassion compare to drug addition. Isn�t that what romantic love is in any case: brains on chemicals designed to foster procreation, only?

C. S. Lewis: (From The Four Loves, as found in The Inspirational Writings of C.S. Lewis, 278-279.)

�Of all arguments against love none makes so strong an appeal to my nature as �Careful! This might lead you to suffering.�

To my nature, my temperament, yes. Not to my conscience. When I respond to that appeal I seem to myself to be a thousand miles away from Christ. If I am sure of anything I am sure that His teaching was never meant to confirm my congenital preference for safe investments and limited liabilities.

There is no safe investment. To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket�safe, dark, motionless, airless�it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. The alternative to tragedy, or at least to the risk of tragedy, is damnation.

The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell. �

Keep your heart means resist evil desires. Many theologians think not protecting one�s heart leads more people to hell than all other offenses except pride.


If you are going to quote CSL to BSs who read here, how about these:

�The pain I feel now is the happiness I had before. That's the deal.�

�No one ever told me that grief felt so like fear.�


Me, I prefer to stay off the brain chemicals and the heart is just a muscle.

It�s all a terrible misuse of the word love.


eta: I like the way CSL writes. He is almost as sparing with commas as EE Cummings.

Mrs. V -

I've been following your posts because I think my story is quite similar to yours. Your advice on the board seems to reflect a strong understanding of MB principles and affairs generally. However, when I read the following couple lines on your post, it made me question a number of things:

"It makes things easier for everyone, I believe, but I also feel bad identifying that I have no more expectations - I somehow feel selfish, I think, and not as abased or "sorry enough." The point is a bit difficult for me to articulate, but I think the feeling translates to: if I don't feel emotionally anguished, then it must mean I've moved on from the affair and I'm leaving my DH to his anguish on his own."

You may not have articulated your feelings correctly (or I may be misreading it), but if my FWW wrote that, I think I would be justifiably irritated. I'm not saying that you have to be "emotionally anguished" to the point where it's physically debilitating, but I think that, if you recognized the gravity of what you did, your heart should sink thinking about it for the rest of your life.

By way of example, I used to tease/torment a kid when I was in elementary school because "he looked a little funny" (not true, but it was justification to do something mean). It was wrong for all sorts of reasons and, to this day, I think about how horrible a person I was. I've since gotten in touch with him and, although he admitted that it was emotionally difficult for him to be teased by other students for so many years, he appreciated my efforts to seek an apology. I think about it at least a couple times every month (especially now that I have my own child and think how terrible it would be for him to go through something like that).

Having an affair is significantly worse - I've analogized it to killing your spouse before, and I don't think that's an inappropriate analogy. You've literally torn your husband's life apart with an incredibly selfish act, and it troubles me that your post seems to imply that maybe you've moved on from the affair. If you killed someone, I would think you would think about your act everyday (and certainly be more emotionally anguished than the person you "killed" or his family).

I kind of wonder if you going back to med school has made you think a little less about what happened. Is there a danger in you falling back to where you were? Not trying to be accusatory, just thinking out loud and hoping you tell me that I misread your post . . . .

One point I forgot to mention. You mentioned that your husband has been pushing you toward med school, but it seems like you also think it's the right decision ("He and I both identify that me being a homemaker is a far better family environment, but long-term it may not be wise to give up the medical career.") If you really want to be a SAHM, are you ready to tell your husband that you'd like to give up your medical career for that? If not, I think your being somewhat delusional thinking that it's your husband driving your career - my wife used to misconstrue my statements pre-D-Day as well to make it look like everything she was doing was for me, and I'm trying to see if that's the case here. However, if you're ready to make that commitment (dropping out of medical school), I think you ought to voice that and figure out a way to make it work. I don't think it's healthy for the relationship for you to be going to medical school because your husband has been pushing it or because you think it's good for his career. It's really about what makes you as a couple the happiest.

I don't know what Mrs. V. meant, but I can say that people don't process stuff in the same ways. I would bet that some of the FWS on this board rarely think about their affair. And I would think their BS probably prefer it that way.

Sackcloth and ashes is not very appealing.

First, a disclaimer, as I certainly cannot say that my M has recovered from my affair, far from it. But from my POV, I have a couple of thoughts.

Mrs_V's M has not recovered, not completely. From what I read of her thoughts, I think she fully grasps the consequences of and the reality of her A. But she's essentially in a long-term Plan A, as am I, and we're constantly told not to have any expectations. None. She desires a restored M, but her BH has told her that he refuses to allow himself to be vulnerable enough to her to fall in love with her again. That's his choice. No amount of need-meeting is going to change that.

Love does require a certain amount of vulnerability. As an aside, I do agree that the CSL quote I posted does not only reflect romantic love - we can harden our hearts against anyone, because in one way or another, anyone we love is capable of hurting us, betraying us, leaving us. Even pets can run away or die. I'd go so far as to say that some people have a great love of "things," but even material possessions can let us down, they can be taken away, lost, or destroyed.

Even though there is reciprocal need-meeting going on, Mrs V's H is still keeping her at arms' length - and he's telling her that.

I don't think any repentant WS ever "moves on" from their A in the sense that they forget the devastation they caused. I can't imagine that I ever will, regardless of whether my H comes back to the M or not. The face of the M is irrevocably changed.

I also know that when I'm wallowing in anguish and despair, I'm no good to anyone, certainly not my H. I can't meet his needs when I am wallowing in self-flagellation. Believe me, I've been there often enough to realize that, and have been told that often enough on my thread. If you read helpfordad's thread on this board you'll see that his FWW's constant misery over her A is wearing thin for HFD, b/c when she brings it up each time she is stressed and overwhelmed, it is triggering him. As kerala said, sackcloth and ashes is not appealing, not to HFD.

In a way, the FWS is being selfish if they are dwelling on the A by making it all about him/her. The best way to show remorse and repentance is to change our actions, and demonstrate that through care, time, patience, adherence to EPs, and meeting the EN's of our BS's where they allow us to do so. Maybe it will make an impact, maybe not...that's where the lack of expectations come in.

Anyway, I'm in a different place, with an H who has told me I make him physically sick, that I'm evil, not worth it, and that he hates me many times over the past 2 years. I can't make him take the leap of faith it would take to allow himself to be vulnerable to me again, to fall in love with me again. But at the same time, I know that if he did allow himself to be vulnerable with me, our M could be amazing, and I continue to wait for that, knowing that the likelihood of it happening gets further and further away every day.

If he does come back, and we recover our M, I could never forget that the only reason I had a chance at that was b/c of my H's capacity for forgiveness, his capacity to love and to accept my love in return. A FWS owes their BS, and that's not something I would forget, and think that Mrs. V won't forget either.

Again, I'm in a far, far different place. I'm also dealing with the recent loss of my father, and if it's one thing I've learned in the last 3.5 weeks, it is that if I am too focused on myself, on my own grief, I am no good to anyone.

In the end, we are all broken, and if we desire a truly amazing M, we have to focus on the broken parts not in/of ourselves, but our spouses. Especially where we have been the cause of that brokenness.

I'm not suggesting that Mrs. V be "wallowing in anguish and despair." I agree - sackcloth and ashes are not appealing. I also agree that there are plenty of BSs out there who would prefer that their FWSs never think about the affair; just act like it never happened.

However, I think it's all a matter of degree. If my FWW was just "wallowing in anguish and despair," I would tell her to pick herself up and start taking the next steps. It's not the place anyone should be as it's counterproductive. But if my FWW told everyone that she's moved on passed the affair and left me to deal with emotional issues relating to the affair, I don't think that's correct. It tells me that she doesn't appreciate the gravity of what she did. Again, it's a matter of degree.

I never got the impression from Mrs. V that she's 'moved on' past the affair. Did she post this somewhere and I just missed it?

I have always gotten the sense that Mrs. V is incredibly remorseful for her actions and is allowing her H to set the pace for his recovery. That's great, but I think he's a little high-handed and I think in some cases he is punishing her for being the cause of his pain. Mrs. V has very little control over that. I, personally, think Mr. V needs to quit wasting time and mental space over the affair and get on with the business of recovering and bettering the marriage. He can't/won't put the A in the rearview mirror, IMO. He keeps it on the dashboard.

Here it is, right here.

Hell, as a BH only a year out, I'm a tad offended by some of the guys actions here.

Blaming V for him being "stuck" in a career he isn't happy with?

Puh-lease!

I didn't go to nursing school for NGB or the kids at all. I went through it for myself, and it happens to have benefits that my W and kids will reap.

Certainly, anyone with any reasonable amount of education and certification whining that they are "stuck" is not something that can be placed on somebody else.

Hello?

It's an opportunity to wield the A as a weapon of resentment, and 3 years out... well;


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=33&subsublink=309


This is why I was so hung up on RH for so long, because I kept having meltdowns, and this is NOT THE MAN I WILL EVER BE, PERIOD.

I've never been completely innocent of Love Busters, but I'll be damned if I have ever been, or ever will be abusive to NGB. I cannot stand or stomach abuse of any kind.


And this, V, is why your continuing education (while it should be a good thing, and something I normally advocate and encourage) is something that just seems to be a seed of doom, rather than one of enrichment of your M.

Mike, I agree with you that adultery is the worst thing one can do to a spouse short of killing them. But a WS does not make that up with eternal suffering anguish, but through just compensation. Sure, a WS is going to feel guilt, probably for life, but wallowing in anguish does not help the marriage. What helps the marriage is making just compensation to the BS by creating an affair proof marriage and restoring the romantic love to the marriage.

I don't want my H thinking about his crime for eternity, I want him to think about how to make me happy. And I want to think about how to make him happy. It does not make me happy to see my H in anguish. It makes me happy to see my H in love with me.

This is one of the reasons why Dr Harley advocates never bringing up the affair again. The affair is a very unhappy, traumatic experience in the marriage. If a spouse is thinking about such negative things, then they aren't thinking about how to make the other person happy. The affair can become a very negative DISTRACTION from an otherwise great marriage.

And lastly, if a BS continues to bring up and punish a WS for her affair, then separation is in order.

here

oh! I see that HHH beat me to it!!

Emphasis mine:

�She desires a restored M, but her BH has told her that he refuses to allow himself to be vulnerable enough to her to fall in love with her again. That's his choice. No amount of need-meeting is going to change that. �

It is in several books on recovering from adultery though not in Dr H�s, that I recall, the greater danger to an adulterated marriage is the BS. Another way to state this is (it�s in Carder�s Torn Asunder) the BS is much less likely to get past it than the adulterer is. After all, if the marriage remains intact the adulterer basically gets to have their cake and eat it too. So why would an adulterer have any internalized troubles getting past what they did? The BS on the other hand gets nothing but what they should have had all along. It always looks to rational BS like cutting one�s losses is best.

However, according to Dr Harley, meeting ENs always changes everything. If you meet your spouse�s EN�s in they way they want them met they will fall romantically in love with you. Period. Guaranteed! He states this as an uncontested fact in several writings. (But see caveat below).

So, a question relevant to this thread for MB experts.

What is the MB method, or Dr H�s explicit direction, or perhaps this forum�s advice (direct this question as you see fit) for this fundamental and bottom line issue: What best gets a skittish and/or angry BS to recommit to the adulterated marriage?

Is it time and the normal human tendency towards forgetting just how bad something was? Human brains tend to forget pain and anguish with time. It�s just the way the brain works. For most people. There are exceptions. But the exceptions have other problems. So just wait it out, years if necessary? Pittman writes two years or as log as the A lasted, whichever is longer, is the norm (probably one sigma) for the BS to start showing signs of getting over the trauma. And this is with a repentant WS.

Or, is it the guarantee by Dr H that meeting ENs will do it? But, Dr H has also written that when some peoples� LB balance is deep in the red ENs cannot in fact be met. The deposit window is closed. What then?

Is it long term abject sorrow AND repentance on the part of the adulterer that does it? The forum seems to think this approach lacks, what, style. The collective�s opinion has been the same on this for years. It is deeply ingrained in the forum. Comes up time after time. A proper expression of a proper amount of sorrow for a proper amount of time should be enough to bring a BS back into the marriage. Anything more than this is distasteful. At least to this forum.


I am confused. As usual. I do not want back into any M. And I can definitely tell you no amount of EN meeting will ever get me to romantically love anyone ever again. Period. My deposit window is not only closed the entire bank is insolvent and shut down.

What should the adulterer who still wants the consequences of their adultery to just somehow go away do?

eta: I do not actually understand V�s BH. Why does he not move on already?

MrsVanilla, I posted this to your husband, MikeX, on his thread, but i wanted you to see it too:


Sorry, I just read this, MrVanilla!! I see you are posting again to your wife and wanted to respond to this. In order for UA time to be effective, it needs to be spent in 2 to 4 hour blocks AWAY from home. [except the sex part, obviously] Spending the bulk of your UA time at home with a sleeping child is not what Harley had in mind. Doing it at home like that is not effective because you are a) tired, b) easily distracted by waking children, chores, phone calls c) sitting around in your sloppy clothes looking tired. What Harley suggests is going OUT when you have the most energy, dressing up and being really TOGETHER.

As you have learned, it is NOT effective UA time.

Many couples make the mistake of living their lives essentially the same but going back and doing a "check the box" on UA by tallying up meaningless contact throughout the day, ie: 15 minutes at breakfast, 10 minutes here, 30 minutes here. That does not work.

What it takes to make this work is to sit down with your wife on Sunday and schedule out TWENTY FIVE hours of UA time throughout the week. [20-25 to create romantic love and 15 hours to maintain] Go out at least 3 nights during the week and 2 days during the weekend so that the BULK of your time is quality, effective, meaningful UA time.


Yes, you can get yourself to do it. The way to change attitudes it to change BEHAVIOR. Feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS and I see from this remark that you are waiting for a magic feeling to attack you against your will before you change your behavior. Oh no. That is not how this works. You need to change your behavior FIRST in order for your feelings to FOLLOW. And of course you won't "feel like it" at first. No one does when they are creating new habits.

Do you and MrsVanilla have the UA worksheet in the back of the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook?

Because somewhere along the way, he determined that wallowing in the memory of the A served a purpose for him. I suspect he found that he could control/punish Mrs. V by keeping it foremost in his mind.

Dr. Harley:

The truth is that many betrayed spouses CAN'T get past it. Many betrayed spouses cannot get past it and choose to move on. That is their right and their prerogative. Like Harley says, we will help you if you WANT to save your marriage, but we will also support anyone who chooses to move on. Marriage Builders does not profess a desire to force a BS to stay in a marriage against his will.

I should qualify this by saying that sometimes Just Compensation, committment to recovery, and a PROACTIVE adherence to extraordinary precautions can sometimes bring a skittish BS on board. And sometimes NOT. Every BS needs to decide for themselves if they are willing to stay. They are all perfectly within their rights to walk away. But NO BS should stay around unless those conditions are met.

Another point, here, which came up on my own thread - someone posted once that my BH's pain was his to deal with, and someone countered that they disagreed - it was not his alone to deal with, but he had to decide to let me help. A FWS may be more than willing to help their BS deal with their pain, but the BS has to allow the FWS to help. Admitting to feeling pain, and asking for help, is allowing oneself to be vulnerable.

And what are any of us vulnerable to when we ask for help? Many see asking for help as a sign of weakness. We fear if we allow our weaknesses to be seen, that someone may take an opportunity to wound us further. When you allow someone so close to your heart, they can hurt us like no other, so the refusal of a BS to allow the FWS to see them as vulnerable is understandable. The BS can forever close their LB$ to the FWS, regardless of what the FWS does to try and offer just compensation, needs-meeting and so forth.

If we refuse to allow anyone close enough to comfort us in our pain, paradoxically we risk not having anyone close to us to share our joy. It has the potential to make us very lonely people. I don't want that for my H, and yet am powerless to do anything about it, since I was the cause. I would like nothing more than to love him and be loved in return, but yeah, as a FWS that does, on its face, appear that I am being somehow rewarded for my sins and my H would be getting what I promised that I would give him 14 years ago, and I already broke that promise...what guarantee can I give him that it wouldn't happen again, when he can't believe my words and doesn't trust my actions? Time and consistency (with EPs, ENs) may be the key, but it may not.

I'm certainly not an expert, as I have not mastered my own struggle with fear and vulnerability. I struggle with knowing where the line is between neediness and simply allowing myself to be vulnerable, and struggle with my own fears of unworthiness and the feeling like I don't deserve anything from my BH. I talked about not having expectations, but there's a difference between no expectations and feeling like you don't deserve anything, if that makes sense.

My most recent breakthrough was in writing out EP's and the conditions of divorce under infidelity, including a line for signatures of acknowledgement.

For myself, doing this meant that none of the terms or conditions contained within will ever have to be discussed again - it is set in ink, clear and concise.

Because of this, I feel I have clearly communicated my requirements for continuing and recovering the marriage.

I caught a scant amount of heat, but I didn't share it as much for opinions or editing as to put out a general step that I had recently taken - which is an advised step - written EP's.

What best gets a skittish and/or angry BS to recommit to the adulterated marriage? - Aphelion

Just Compensation, committment to recovery, and a PROACTIVE adherence to extraordinary precautions can sometimes bring a skittish BS on board. And sometimes NOT.... - MelodyLane

And I'll set the bar even a bit more tenuously by saying that historical developments in the marriage/affair, now well out of reach for current or future adjustment, play a HUGE role in the BS's view of the value of suffering the pain of recovery versus pulling the pin on the nearest D-grenade.

• Are there dependent children to be considered?
• Was the "quality" or "value" of the marital existence "high" or merely "marginal"?
• What was the character of the discovery - surprise, confession, revelation by third party?
• And, obviously, what was the character of the betrayal - EA, PA, EA/PA, long- or short-term?

Just compensation, commitment, and extraordinary precautions are what are called "hygiene factors". (Think of washing your food before eating - doing so will not guarantee health, but not doing so promotes sickness.) FWSs should remove barriers to the BS deciding to reconcile, but actively "getting" them to do so is largely not within their power.

Yogi Berra said it best: "If no one wants to be your customer, you can't stop 'em."

Mrs Vanilla, is MikeX your H?

Mrs. V is NOT my W. I've been following her story a little but haven't read all her posts and don't know the complete story. Just noticed that she mentioned that she had "moved on from the affair" and thought I'd add my 2 cents. Some of you didn't read my prior post in which I mentioned that I'm not asking that anyone be wallowing in anguish. I just think that an affair is significant enough that it should be something you think of very frequently - if not, I don't think you understand the gravity of what you've done. Again, that doesn't mean you should be wallowing in anguish.

I think the problem with some of the posts above is that they assume that BSs are in the marriage to stay in it for good. (Some of the posts also act like an affair is equivalent to "a night out with the guys" compensation - like I was home babysitting while you went out with the guys, so you now owe me.) A lot of us BSs are in constant limbo not because we want to punish the FWS, but because we just don't know what to do. It's not like we planned for this to happen. To simply say that the BS has to commit to the marriage just like before and not ever speak of the affair again is simply too much to ask IMHO. If my FWW asked me today that I had to choose between fully committing to the marriage and leaving it, I would leave. I have no doubt about that. Because my FWW and I have a son together I'm trying to get comfortable with the situation but struggle on a daily basis.

Not sure why Mrs. V's husband wants to leave his career because of the affair all of a sudden. That doesn't seem to make sense for me (and for a lot of others). Could you elaborate, Mrs. V?

Wow. I have been out of town for the weekend, and I come back to a thread seeing more activity in two days than it has in two years!

A lot of posts to process, as well as some sobering claims that it seems I need to address.

I will try to get through this today, maybe after a bulk of my studying is finished.

For now, I will second what MikeX clarified: no, he is NOT my DH!

DH and I have talked about him posting here, back when I started, and my preference is still for him to post his own words, as mine always seem to backfire or be misconstrued - especially when it comes to painting a picture of him as a BS, if that makes sense.

Thank you for those who have offered support of my actions/affirmed my good intentions - the emotional buttressing is always welcome. (I should probably just edit that out, as someone will find a way to fault me for poorly-executioned self-disparagement!)

Last thing for now: Mike, please read my original post carefully - and, in addition, it may behoove you to read the rest of my thread. You may find that introspection and appropriately verbalizing that are not my strong suits, so I often post attempts to think through things. Nowhere in the post you referenced did I say "I have unequivocally and without a doubt moved on from the A, and my BH can just rot." I'm being a bit dramatic, but that post and subsequent ones seem to support the hardening of that belief for you. I agree with you, and I am sure my DH would, as well, that to hear a WS/FWS say that would be a serious LBer, and I will try to clarify later. Thanks offering your take on all of that.

Hi MrV!

It is understandable that some BS' can't get over it. But that does not entitle them to keep the WS around in a state of limbo for years of perpetual punishment. Do you think it helps your marriage in any way by demanding she dwell on the past? Of course, it is up to the WS to put a stop to it, and I would strongly suggest that MrsV put a stop to it.

MrsV, I would strongly advise that you take Dr Harley's advice in dealing with a resentful spouse:

here

MrsV, his expectation that you continually think about your affair is a way of demanding that you perpetually dwell on your past mistakes. Don't do it and do not allow him to do that to you.

Why not email the moderators and ask them that question?

Hi Mel!

I just notified the mods to see if they could clarify this for everyone. Thanks for the suggestion!

I do hope he clarifies this himself. It is wrong to lie to you and everyone here about this.

I don't even know what to type right now. It appears I may stand corrected...

I suspect you may be right...

Ummmm......why does MelodyLane keep insisting that I'm Mrs. V's H? Both of us confirmed that we're not....

MikeX, thank you for giving me a smidgen of understanding as to what betrayal feels like.

Were you telling the truth when you "confimed" this?

Yes!! Not sure what's going on....

We have confirmed with MrsVanilla that this is a match.

Cross-posted w/ Fireproof.

So... Mr Vanilla is posting here on the down-lo, or... someone in town on the same subnet, or.... one spouse posting as the bs and ws?

erp a herrrp a derp....

Upon further confirmation from Fireproof, "MikeX" is, apparently, "Mr. Vanilla."

If veracity is in doubt, as I understand it can be, I'm sure the mods could verify that somehow. I am at school studying, Mr. X (a composite, since it appears he does not want to be identified as Mr. Vanilla) is at work, networks are Y and Z, etc.

All right, time out. I have a "mutual friend" that just emailed me whom I need to deal with. A "mutual friend" who has a history of doing this. Misguided as it may be. I don't know yet if my DH knows or not that the "mutual friend" did this.

I'll be interested to hear how this "mutual friend" managed to pull this off. And why.

MrsVanilla, that is very possible if this friend posted from your home yesterday. The initial IP match orginated from your home.

Are you wireless systems on protect? Someone may be hijacking some bandwidth from your wireless system from the neighborhood or the local Starbucks depending on what network you are posting from.

In order to get on a marriage website that she frequents and post, coincidentally enough, TO her?

Unless I'm missing something, that one doesn't pass the smell test.

All right. I spoke w/ DH, and I think I have the story now.

Apparently this friend is in town, and he stopped by our apartment yesterday while the kids and I were out of town. A while ago he had asked for DH's info to log on, as the friend was "having some trouble" doing it on his own. So the friend has log-in information that is DH's, and he logs on yesterday using our home wireless network while he and DH are visiting.

Also apparently he is still in the area today, and happens to be using a server that is my husband's work server - this part I am still unsure of as to how that's possible.

The friend asked that I not be informed of his visit, and DH also did not share with me that he gave the friend the login info. I jumped to the conclusion, (a natural one, I think, given the evidence), that DH was involved in all of this - either posting directly or indirectly via the friend.

I was quite certain prior to this that those saying MikeX was my DH were utterly wrong - that DH would never do that, that the level of openness and honesty and the relationship we have would preclude any sorts of deceitful dealings like that.

And I was right, DH was not aware of the friend posting or knowing what the friend posted - he didn't really question giving the friend the info, and this all just snowballed. (Because I am dramatic, says me.)

I think many of you will probably suspect this, and I am about to deliver a line by many a new, pre-D-day, unknowing BS: I know my DH, and I believe him when I spoke w/ him about all of this.

Ugh, sorry for my contributions to the drama. I was thrown for a bit there.

Mrs V,

so your friend has been posting for 4 months as your H? Using your husband's info, your home address and his work server?

I think it's only the posting from yesterday and today that are server-ID'd. The ones prior to that SHOULD (although, clearly, at this point, I am not the one of those in the know) be from farther away - at least out of state, if not out of country.

I'm sure the mods can confirm that, as well.

Why did the friend post as your H?

Why did he take the risk of doing so from your house yesterday, if he wanted to keep this a secret from your H?

Why did he post as your H earlier this year? Was he using those servers the previous times he posted?

This makes no sense at all, but if you are happy with the explanation, so be it, but I think he emailed his friend and begged him to cover for him.

It is a long-time friend of my DH's - they grew up together, share a lot of history, etc. It's very easy for him to know or obtain DH's info, and wants to help DH in any way he can - maybe in ways he thinks help but really don't.

He has been helpful in the past, especially prior to MB/some form of recovery when I was a terrible communicator and poorly introspective at best. It's just that this stunt, now, was... Well, not helpful for me, at least, but maybe it was for him to help DH, or helpful directly to DH upon reading...I don't know. It's done now.

MrsVanilla, we did check and they are not farther away. They are the same IPs we see now from the same city.

I don't know which of these to go with right now:

How about

or

?

Better than

or

Mrs. V, think about what you've written. Does that explanation sound plausible to you at all??

I'm thinking this is a good one (for Mr. V)

I think Mr and MrsV need time to sort this out - in private.

ITA, Sugar.

I think Mr and MrsV need time to sort this out - in private. - SC

ITA, Sugar. - MB

And as much as I'd appreciate being a mouse listening to that discussion, I have to cast my vote with you two ladies.

I'll third this. or fourth it.

Anyone still amazed at how weird things tend to get around adultery?

BS Fog? Some BS get lost after D-Day a lot worse than the WS ever was.

Took me five years after the second D-Day of the VLTA to figure out what I want and what I no longer want. What I will do and what I will no longer do.

I hope this is all sorted out for you MRs. V

CV

I hope it's sorted out for her BH. He needs to move on.

Hindsight is 20-20.

Being a BS is scary, agonizing, confusing and downright humiliating. It makes one cycle between resignation, resentment and anger for a long, long time. I�m talking years, not months of resignation, resentment and anger. Resignation, resentment and anger I kept inside, BTW, because of the following advice I received on this very MB Recovery Forum�

So, if I only knew then even part of what I know now -


I did not have this conversation; I had not brought the VLTA up in ay way, not even tangentially, for years. But these would have been my honest answers to these questions up to five years after D-Day 2 of the VLTA:

Listen Buster, do you love me? I don�t know. I may not love you any more. I don�t know. I don�t know.

Do you want me to love you? I don�t know. Your adultery tells me you don�t love me. Your adultery proves to me beyond the shadow of a doubt you neither love nor respect me enough to not lie, cheat, steal, keep promises and have repeated long term sex with another man. In fact, it is obvious you loved OM much, much more than you loved me. And if it was a fantasy, as so many people seem to believe adultery is, then you love fantasy itself more than you have loved me.

Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? I don�t know. Who are you? How long to I have to decide? Note: IMO BS should have two years or as long as the adultery lasted, whichever is longer, to decide. Which in my case is ten years. Though I only took five years.

If the answers to any of those questions is yes you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!" This is hypocrisy in the extreme coming from a lying cheating adulteress. How can you even think this let alone demand anything whatsoever of me?

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all." To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love." I cannot digest this at all. It makes no sense whatsoever coming from an adulterer. More hypocrisy. Oh, and for the record, I have no problem with our sexual relationship. I seem to be physically unable to have sex. I do not seem to work any more, due to the visuals of you and OM even this far out.

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. I agree with this advice. I never mention the VLTA. Haven�t for years. For my sake. Makes me feel bad. I�ve learned I need to care about my feelings too.

Aphelion, I have to tell you I don't have much sympathy for any BS who lingers on for years in a sick, unrecovered marriage. If you are resentful for years on end that is because you are in an unrecovered marriage. That is all on you. Your choice. Those of us that used the program are not living lives of quiet desperation. We have great marriages and happy lives.

After awhile you are no longer a victim, but a volunteer. And regardless, it does not entitle any BS to perpetually punish a repentant WS. A repentant wayward spouse should be forgiven, not punished for years. If you can't get over it, then get out.

Hypocrisy? I don't think so. Hypocrisy is expecting a certain standard of behavior from others that you don't practice yourself. A FORMER wayward is obviously no longer practicing abusive behavior so it can't be said he is a hypocrite.

I do know that couples that get on board and use these concepts to recover their marriages, do not feel resentment, they feel a romantic love that crowds out the bad feelings. And if your spouse didn't get on board with that then you are the problem, not them.

By the way, I have been in TWO marriages that experienced adultery. I have massive resentment about one and none at all in the other. The difference is that I went through the MB steps for recovery in the latter and never recovered in the former.

I don't think about my XH very much,[the one I resent] but when I do, I am triggered with massive resentment and hatred. This is why I avoid him as much as possible. I rarely, if ever, think about him. I cannot even imagine having to live with that resentment every day, though. I would not live like that. But that is what happens in unrecovered marriages, the BS is triggered EVERY DAY and lives a life of resentment. By CHOICE.

Ah, Mel�I still find you interesting�lucky you�

You jumped over the intended message and addressed something that no longer bothers me whatsoever.

We�ve had this discussion before. I blame my communication skills comma lack of.

For the record I did not disparage MB methods. I stated where I was at five years. May be of use to V�s BH. Perhaps of use to V for that matter.

BTW, hypocrisy applies to ignoring one�s own past behaviors too.

eta: I agree with your take on resentment. A negative for all involved. But I don�t agree it�s always a choice.

Actually, what he is doing is dishonest. If he is committing to working on the relationship, then they need to talk to each other about things. If what is happening is what appears to be happening, he's doing it all wrong.

CV

Resentment is ALWAYS a choice. As is choosing to love and forgive and even be happy. What we feel is often based on choices we have made or make. They are the results of good decisions or bad ones. If we feel we made a bad choice or fail to comprehend the truth of something then we feel resentful towards it or about it.

CV

No, I still do not agree. Even Dr H says resentment is not always a choice. Here�s a more complete version of the Dr H quote used in this thread:

�Those who have written me understand how damaging their feeling of resentment is to their happiness and to the future of their marriage. But they seem unable to stop it. It's a great subject for a psychologist, who is supposed to know how to help people control their emotions. But, I must admit, this is a tough one.

I have answers to some parts of the problem, but not all of them. So to help you as much as I can, I will lay the problem out to you and give my advice wherever I can.

The more there is to resent, the more difficult it is to overcome resentment.

But emotional associations fade over time as long as there are no further associations with new painful events. In both cases, their husbands have not had an affair after the revelation, and so I would predict that if they have a normal recovery, where they learn to meet each other's needs, avoid Love Busters and learn to apply the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty to their decisions, the resentment would fade away.

If, on the other hand, either husband were to have another affair, the association would be much harder to extinguish. In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

But there is more to resent than just the number of affairs a husband had in the past. In many cases, an affair is discovered while it's going on, and the unfaithful spouse makes matters worse by choosing to be with the lover and abandoning the spouse and children. That thoughtless act is a huge source of additional resentment for the victimized spouse. He or she not only goes through the pain of discovering the affair, but must also go through the pain of being rejected. The unfaithful spouse often moves away to be with the lover, leaving the spouse all alone to face the terror of abandonment.

Then, if all of that weren't enough, the unfaithful spouse explains that he or she needs time to "sort out" feelings, whatever that means. It actually means that the unfaithful spouse will go to the highest bidder. Whoever makes the unfaithful spouse feel the best, the lover or the spouse, will win the prize of the unfaithful spouse. So he or she spends some time with the lover, and then spends some time with the spouse. Back and forth, trying to "get in touch" with feelings. Can you fathom the resentment that would follow such a horrifying and humiliating experience?

But there's more. After vacillating back and forth a few times, the lover gets sick of it all and tosses the spouse out for good. With nowhere else to go, the unfaithful spouse comes back home. It wasn't his or her choice. It was the lover's choice. How would you feel being chosen because you were the only one left. Resentment doesn't begin to describe the feeling.

Finally, there's all the lies. Your spouse looks right into your eyes and lies to you about everything. Faced with undeniable evidence, he or she grudgingly and defensively admits to one lie after another, rarely accompanied by apologies. How can there ever be trust again?

B.A. and S.K. went through only a small number of the possible painful experiences that lead to resentment. Over time, their resentment will fade, and a passionate desire to make love to their husbands will grow. Both husbands should be patient, and give their wives a chance to overcome the worst of their resentment, before expecting much from them sexually. But a woman in love is usually a great sex partner, and I doubt that either husband will be disappointed if they do their part in meeting their wives emotional needs. I predict that within a year from now, both of these wives will have almost completely recovered from their feelings of resentment.

But if they had gone through the other experiences I had mentioned -- abandonment, vacillation between spouse and lover, returning after being rejected by the lover, and the many lies -- I would not be as optimistic about them overcoming their resentment quickly. It would take much more patience on the part of the unfaithful husbands. But even with all of this past pain and suffering, they too, could have a marriage that would be relatively free of resentment.

Some people are better at remembering than others.

I read recently that estrogen replacement significantly improves memory in women. Great! That's all I need. A wife that can do an even better job remembering everything I've ever done to offend her.

It's true that the better your memory, the more difficult it will be to overcome resentment. That's because resentment is tied to memories, and if you forget the painful event, the resentment is lost along with it. One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

:

Another topic that I will briefly mention is obsessive thinking. Some people feel that if they stop thinking about something terrible, it will happen to them. While it's not all that common, it effects certain people known to be obsessive, where regardless of the low probability of risk, they treat some thoughts as if they were an ever-present danger. Those who compulsively wash their hands for fear of being infected by germs are an example of this type of person. The solution to their problem often lies in medication that helps them overcome obsessive thoughts and compulsive behavior. There are some very effective medical remedies that a doctor trained in obsessive thinking can prescribe that often help a person rid themselves of pervasive resentment regarding an affair.

Admittedly, I have not covered resentment regarding an affair completely. But it's a start. If your problem with resentment is not covered in this column, e-mail me issues that you are still struggling with, and I will try to help you with them.

Resentment seems insurmountable when an affair is first discovered, and as it unfolds, with its attending lies and thoughtless acts, it's amazing that anyone can actually overcome resentment. But it's a fact that people usually do, especially when the core problems leading to infidelity are resolved. It's a good illustration of how our instincts lead us astray when trying to resolve our marital problems. Most of us cannot imagine overcoming resentment after a spouse's affair, but those who have gone through it know that it's not only possible, but it's likely that resentment will fade away. �

Notice the use of the words frequently, often, probably, almost always, usually � As stated by Dr H, some people do indeed have too much to resent to get over it. Choice is not a major factor.

Now, before Mel jumps all over me again, I have very little resentment. My fading memory is doing its thing. I am to the point where I am rarely triggered. I don�t actually care any more. But this isn�t about me. It�s supposed to be about V�s stuck BH. For whatever reason stuck H.

Has anyone ever suggested he call Dr H and discuss his resentment, if that is even what it is?

And always, there's Dr. Harley's explanation that most marriages that experience infidelity NEVER recover. Most get divorced, permanently separate, or live in an unhappy marriage. He's talked a lot in his radio show and in several books about the kinds of couples who discover MarriageBuilders.

The couples in which both partners are enthusiastic about repairing their marriage after an affair usually just do so. They figure out a way, and both of them try very hard to prevent a recurrence. These types don't tend to need counseling or dive too deep into marriage "theory". They find a few techniques that work and run with them.

The couples in which both partners are NOT enthusiastic about repairing the marriage don't tend to get counseling or worry about marriage theory. They just divorce and move on.

The ones that end up here are typically those where one partner is enthusiastic about recovery, but the other is not. That dynamic also affects recoveries.

If it were me, after five years and responses like the ones above -- bringing up the affair again -- I'd write a letter. In that letter, I'd explain what I need from the marriage. I would need for my spouse to never bring up the affair again. I would need a commitment to a marital recovery program together. I would need a commitment to spend at least fifteen hours a week meeting one another's most important emotional needs.

My spouse's response would inform my next move.
* Sit down with me and discuss it thoughtfully, forming a plan for the future together? There's hope. I'd stick around.
* Crumple up the note or tell me why it's offensive? I'd prepare for a separation, knowing there's a good chance my spouse would never wake up to the hurt they are continuing to perpetrate daily long after my offense is long gone.
* Refuse to acknowledge the note or ignore it? Same thing, I'd prepare for a separation, but with some hope that perhaps the separation would "wake up" my spouse.

But maybe that's just me. After five years, I think it's not about the affair anymore. That's just a stick to beat the former wayward spouse with. It's about building a great relationship together, and if one spouse won't do that after five years, it's about time to hang up the cleats and either move on or else go through a few maneuvers in hopes they'll get the idea that you're not willing to settle for a craptastic relationship anymore.

That is not the definition of hypocrisy:


hypocrite
[hip-uh-krit]  

noun
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially [b]a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. [/b]

For example, I stole erasers from the drug store when I was 6. My belief THEN was that stealing is ok. It is not my belief today. Therefore, I am not a hypocrite if I tell my child not to steal. If a wayward has repented they are perfectly free to judge others for bad behavior.


I agree. Sometimes it is more than we can overcome. Even Dr Harley alludes to this in several places. If I had a choice to not resent my XH, I wouldn't do it. I am not a grudgeholder by nature and see no point in it. However, when I am around him my feelings of resentment come flooding back. That is my LAST memory of him.

On the other hand, I have absolutely no resentment for my current H. When I am around him I have nothing but good feelings.

I used to believe this, really. I am not a grudge holder by nature. I really abhor resentments and consider them to be a waste of energy. I have a DEEP abiding resentment against my XH. It has nothing to do with any choice I made, but from the cruel and unusual punishment he inflicted on me.

The way I deal with this is to avoid him. I don't speak to him and have only seen the worm 2x in 12 years. As long as I stay away from him I don't think about him.

Even Dr Harley says that sometimes "The more there is to resent, the more difficult it is to overcome resentment."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy :

1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially: the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

2: an act or instance of hypocrisy


The emphasis is not mine.

Perhaps our difference in usage is rooted in the second clause of the first instance.

An adulterer, former of otherwise, who acts like they never did it or expects others to take their advice about adultery without revealing their adulterous history, or acts like they never committed adultery when requiring certain reciprocal actions fits the definition, IMO.

And is a liar by omission, too.

Maybe this does not apply to a former adulterer around their own spouse since they supposedly know all. (But of course they never know all).

Advice on how to treat a former adulterer when coming from same adulterer has got to be suspect by anyone. I agree with an analogy you yourself have used several times before this. I would not likely take financial advice from a former embezzler. Especially not one who embezzled from me.

I still think V�s BH needs counsel about his stuckidness. There is more to this than meets the posts.

I�m heading for the barn.

Again, it comes back to "feigning what does not believe or practice themselves." A REPENTANT wayward [key word being REPENTANT] does not believe or practice those sins. Jesus says REMOVE THE PLANK FROM YOUR EYE first. And that is what a person does when they repent.

So, no, it is not hypocrisy if one does not still believe or practice that sin in their own lives.


Now see, I WOULD take financial advice from a FORMER embezzler if he had repented and had a proven track record of successful financial managment.

What I have said over and over again, is I would not take marriage advice from someone in a bad marriage themselves. That is because that has been a historic pattern with so called "vets" and "old timers" on this forum.

Aphelion, it is nice to see you around again.

Great - dueling dictionaries!



When my bride asks why I find this site so......intriguing.....I think of threads like this.

(And at least the debate is over the word "hypocrisy" and not the meaning of "is"!)

I guess my point was that while it is harder in some instances, it can be overcome (if one was willing to invest the time). Dr. Harley doesn't say it's impossible, just more difficult. Maybe the question is "is this person worth the effort?"

;-)

CV

Here is what Harley says:

The way I have overcome that resentment is to SEPARATE myself for life from the source. And that is what many betrayed spouses should do when they find they cannot overcome that resentment and maintain contact.

I guess my point was that while it is harder in some instances, it can be overcome (if one was willing to invest the time). Dr. Harley doesn't say it's impossible, just more difficult. Maybe the question is "is this person worth the effort?"

;-)

CV [/quote]


Here is what Harley says:

The way I have overcome that resentment is to SEPARATE myself for life from the source. And that is what many betrayed spouses should do when they find they cannot overcome that resentment and maintain contact. [/quote]

I agree that is one way to do it.

I feel bad for the T/J on mrs. Vanilla's thread. Hoping they got to the bottom of the mystery...

cv

It's not the same scenario, but I handle my resentment toward my wayward mother in much the same way. I remember about three years after her divorce I suddenly realized I didn't think about her all the time and that I finally felt better! I had isolated myself from her, and it paid off.

�I feel bad for the T/J on Mrs. Vanilla's thread. Hoping they got to the bottom of the mystery...�

It�s not intended as a thread jack. I was trying to go somewhere with this. If I could only remember where�

I have an itch that feels like it might be empathy for V�s BH, whoever he is. He appears to be where I used to be. Sitting on the fence for so long he�s been whitewashed and ivy has grown up around him.

I searched back through this thread again during lunch and I do not see where V�s BH was at all abusive before V�s adultery. If anything he is the one who had tons of unmet ENs and should have been the one, according to basic MB theory, to have had an affair, or affairs. So whatever he is doing or appears to be doing now is not at all in his basic character.

However, there are also some confusing and contradictory things in this thread. Like religious issues (death for adultery) mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I am a practicing Catholic and even though I could get a civil divorce I would not be able to remarry again in the church. So why bother. But it reads as if V�s BH is feeling even more constrained. So, instead of just condemning him for not knowing what to do, or doing things all wrong, perhaps someone should just come out and ask him what he thinks his options are within his ethical framework.

Perhaps his religious upbringing says he should leave for good but deep down he does not really want to (e.g. the children, basic compassion, finances, maybe even sill love, desire to do the right thing even if he does not know for sure what that is, fear of the unknown, depression�) These things place some people, like me, between a rock and a tender hard place indeed.

I do not recall if Dr H in any of his writings has addressed certain highly conservative religious constraints in dealing with adultery. Some BHs may be caught in a sticky web of conflicting needs and requirements and only appear to be fence sitting. Call it thrashing.

Why is he stuck? What would he do if he had more freedom of action and we keep liberal Protestant ethos out of it?

Anyway, if he could talk�

It could be its own thread � why some BS will not, or feel they cannot, D and leave even though they would if they could. Many mainline Protestants may not understand such a situation.

I think it needs to be remembered that it doesn't take actual abuse from one spouse to cause another one to commit adultery.

Here's the main thing, though: this is not Mr. V's thread. It's Mrs. V's. We don't have the luxury of talking to Mr. V to get his thoughts on the A. (I thought we did on another thread...evidently not.)

It's not productive or respectful to Mrs. V. to speculate about her H's thoughts/feelings, etc. on her thread.
He apparently has decided not to.

Sorry, Mrs. V - I promised myself I'd stay off your thread until you got back, and here I am. Hope you're back soon!

That's ignoble.

It would help V, no matter what gets him to talk or where he does the talking.

He certainly appears to read here...

Nope. It's appropriate. We are indulging in conjecture on a poster's thread about her husband and his actions or thoughts, when neither of them are here to defend or refute anything. THAT'S disrespectful and assumptive and accomplishes nothing positive. Whether or not he 'appears' to read here is immaterial and speculative at best.

Mr. V is certainly aware of this website and should have zero compunction about posting. When he posts here on his own thread we should certainly respond with the best Marriage Building advice we can offer. Without his participation we are a one-sided debate group, using a poster's thread without her permission. And THAT'S wrong.

Sheesh

"I think it needs to be remembered that it doesn't take actual abuse from one spouse to cause another one to commit adultery."

So someone can make someone commit adultery, huh. That's about as wrong a thing as I have ever read � very contrary to MB too. And contrary to what V herself has posted.

You appear to have a dog in this fight. I don�t.

Except for V's posts (and even some of hers), every post referring to her BH on this thread, and some of them outright condemn him, are conjecture. I was trying to draw him out so the conjecture can end.

Never mind.

I was responding to your post, where you indicated that Mr. V did not appear to be abusive. You appeared to be looking for cause/effect signs of abuse on Mr. V's part. What was your point?

This statement stops woefully short of understanding the concepts of Marriage Builders. Many spouses are in unhappy marriages where their needs are not being met, and they don't have affairs. Anecdotal evidence in the form of the betrayed spouses on this site alone makes that abundantly clear. I also think it is disingenuous for you to speculate that Mr. V had 'tons' of unmet needs. We can't know that without his honest participation.

Sorry, I don't believe in dog fighting. I DO have a strong belief in making sure the facts are correct in any given case. Especially when the posters aren't here to speak for themselves.

I'll always mind.

Mrs V, I address this to you, not your chorus�

There are a number of things in your posts that to me are loose ends. Incomplete information. Since the basic reason to post on MB is to get help restoring your marriage (though many just want commiseration, especially WS) I assume these omissions are unintentional or general knowledge I don't have.

If what you write in your initial posts here is true, then I see a parallel in your BH with what was my situation for a long, long time. You have not only handed with both hands your BH a massive marital crisis, you have tossed him body and soul into a crisis of faith.

Further if as you imply in your first posts his religion (and I assume yours) tells him you are now spiritually dead to him he is also mourning you. A hat trick of agony and loss. That explains a lot. It explains the fence and the possibly multiple IDs IMO.

Let me speak plainly even though I may be going out on a limb. This is not your run-of-the-mill MB problem. Your BH first needs to come to terms with his fundamental beliefs. He must either change his religion or follow it. The fence will only become more and more uncomfortable for both of you.

I had to do the same. And it took me a long time. Ages. If God�s own holy sacrament could be so callously thrown aside, where was God? Divorce was not a religious option, so what was I to do? Leave the church? Deny God? I believe it was a divine intervention that brought me back from the brink of the abyss and gave me a solution I could live with.

Your BH will not find much empathy or understanding for his spiritual predicament among the average Protestant. He needs to talk to someone who knows his particular inner struggle. And he needs to take this to his God.

Wishing your BH the best.

I am leaving your thread now.

eta; Mel, my dog is cuter than your dog.

Ms_Vanilla,

Good afternoon. How are things going? I was reading the thread on extraordinary precautions...as my idea of EPs were sorely lacking (naturally). I only had three...if that gives you some clue. I saw your post on that thread and I saw this EP: "No talking to men unless it is about something necessary and unavoidable." ...just helped me see how far away I am from "extraordinary" precautions with my measly 3. So it took me time to adjust from no contact to "no contact for life", from honesty to "radical honesty". LOL ...precautions to "extraordinary precautions", here we go. At least, I am moving in the right direction.

I hope things are going better for you and your BH.

I have not posted for some time out of respect for my marriage and DH, and although DH has since said I can do whatever I want in regards to posting, I have refrained. However, I wanted to get this off of my chest. I know there is no easy answer. The solution seems patently, painfully obvious at this point. And yet I will do nothing because I am foolishly, pathetically, abhorrently optimistic and don't want to do anything to rock the (floundering) boat.

We are unexpectedly pregnant. At the time of my affair, one of the principle reasons DH stayed was for the kids, (although as time has gone on, that has become the only reason he stayed). His plan has been to leave once the kids are older. Accordingly, DH refuses to have any more children. I have mixed feelings - while the timing is not great, another child is a blessing. DH issued an ultimatum: if I have this child, he is leaving. He states there is no problem, and that this "is simple" and "easy" - just get an abortion. Religious grounds are clear-cut (either permissible or not, depending on which scholars you follow). I have enough sin for which to atone, and I do not need to add further sin by having an abortion. This is a very real concern of mine, yet DH mocks and disparages my attempts to address this. (Understandably so. No matter what my religious convictions are now, they will never compare to my obvious lack of them during the affair.)

The larger problem is we have never recovered from my infidelity. I feel DH is stuck back in 2008 - that any changes since then don't exist for him. DH harbors a lot of resentment - towards me, my family, other people in his life. He states that everyone can walk all over him and treat him horribly, but he's still expected to be nice to everyone. I don't know what to say to that, because that's exactly what I did (walk all over him and treat him horribly), and that's exactly what I'm asking him to do now (be nice in return).

I realize our lack of UA and decreased meeting of intimate ENs impacts this. I feel we are at a point where none of that matters: DH will leave no matter what, any hopes I have of a restored marriage and intact family will be dashed, and I will be left with nothing that matters...and an abortion. He "jokes" about me being in California (= far away) doing whatever I want while he lives his life elsewhere - and it hurts, because I know he would be happier that way.

And I'm DJ'ing him in my mind on top of all that: I feel that if he could change his outlook, if we could really commit to this relationship and recovering it, I think it would be so much happier and healthier. However, that is a DJ, me telling him what to think and assuming I know what makes him happy - especially since I am the FWS. Regardless, I think the time is long past for that - the iron has long since cooled. And it is certainly not my place to say something like that to him.

Part of me feels like me having an abortion is Just Compensation, as would be leaving and letting him live his life in peace. I just don't want those situations to be the case. Unfortunately, I think my actions in 2008 dictated the current circumstances, and there is painfully little I can do about it.

Vplanifolia, I am very sorry to hear this but I am not surprised you are back with such a problem. I am convinced that you are under spiritual assault by a man who does not care for you and has used your affair to punish you for years. He is highly manipulative and does not hesitate to use your affair against you for secondary gain.

I will never forget when he signed up here and posted to you under an alias, defending his abuse. And then had to nerve to deny it was him when the moderator pointed out the poster was posting from your house!

Dr Harley talks about the use of such manipulation in his article about resentment:

here

I agree that your husband will leave no matter what and if I were you, I would get a divorce. That would the best for you all. Killing your unborn child and sacrificing any semblance of decency, will not compensate your husband. It will hurt your marriage in enormous ways if you agree to sacrifice your principles.

But this cannot be blamed on your husband anymore. You are a GROWN WOMAN who chooses not to stand up for herself. You are no longer a victim, but a volunteer. It is up to you to stop enabling your husband's abuse, my dear friend.

No, it is not a "DJ." It is the truth. And your husband gets away with manipulating you when you choose to employ such ridiculous notions. You are plenty old enough to know when you are being bamboozled.

It certainly IS your place to tell your husband what it will take to recover your marriage. YOU ARE PART OF THIS MARRIAGE, AREN'T YOU!?

What a horrendous demand for him to make! As with Mel, I distinctly recall the "Nope, not me" postings of this cur.

There comes a point, and I believe you are well past it, when heinous behavior and antisocial actions can no longer be written off as "Well, it's because you had an affair!" (For additional support for this position, you only need read WPG's thread.) He was there and participating in the SF activities of which this pregnancy is the result. He does NOT get free use of the "Do this or else!" card, stretched waaaaay beyond the natural boundaries of a BS managing recovery.

I would disagree slightly with Mel, however. I'd calmly explain that within the constraints of an MB-consistent union, taking an action like terminating this pregnancy would be the most vital of POJA-controlled decisions. And since you cannot enthusiastically agree, the abortion will not be pursued. Put the onus back on him to defend the indefensible.

The POJA was not intended for immoral, evil, or destructive behavior. And even if they both agreed to kill their child, that is not something anyone should endorse or encourage.

...immoral, evil, or destructive behavior.

You and I seem to be in the tiny minority in the country on this topic, Tex. I chose NOT to assume everybody is as attuned to what we can see as elemental morality here when MB principles would serve equally well - pragmatism over dogma, so to speak.

If V's opinion of abortion's defining characteristics were as steadfast as yours and mine, she never would have even posted that note.

So, V - if your concept of aborting a child under any/all conditions puts it in the "murder of innocents" realm, there is no further debate.

If your opinion is less rigid, then POJA is your position.

NG, did you know we are not in the minority on this subject?? That is a very promising sign to me!

I have not discussed this w/ him, and feel I should (especially since I am speculating here), but I feel his resentment protects him. As long as he has that, he does not have to risk anything - no risk in resuming the relationship, and reinforcing his sense of self-worth that he does not have to accept something like this happening to him and be any lesser for it. (Not sure if that makes sense or is even accurate. I'm spitballing here.)


I already do whatever he wants. I went back to medical school because I thought that's what he wanted! The point about the guilt is true, though, as I often am overwhelmed by that and how I use my own guilt to keep me in my place, so to speak.


Yet I still feel I deserve it because he hasn't forgiven me and we haven't recovered the marriage. If he's the victim, who am I to tell him otherwise? Twisted thinking, I know.


This is one of the fundamental issues at play. My DH will say just that, and I am still not ready for that. My stupid, foolish hopes and dreams want more for us, and some tiny bit of me still believes it could happen. Some of my ENs are met, many of the important ones are not, but it is a tolerable situation in light of what I did and what I still hope for us. I'm pretty sure I'm an idiot.


Further evidence of my twisted thinking: I feel like I owe this to him, and that it's a testament of my commitment to him and a marriage that he is happy(ier) with. But that's been my problem now and w/ the affair - sacrificing my principles to keep other people happy.

That is why I am trying to rely on religious guidance. Unfortunately, many interpretations state abortion is a sin, yet the basic premise of those is a very straightforward statement that can be interpreted as simply as my DH states it - that it's okay in black and white terms of that statement.


You are entirely right, and I know this. It's that I am still okay with this and have hope for more. We have two young children already, my husband provides well for us and is a great father, and I do not want to lose any of that. I still have hope. Stupid, stupid hope.

NG, I followed WPG's thread and felt a similarity to our situations. It is always easier when it is someone else you are advising and not yourself.

DH does not embrace MB 100%. He directed me here after D-day, and even purchased a block of phone coaching sessions for us for my birthday after D-day. However, affair-related things have not really been subject to POJA. This constitutes an affair-related thing because of...well, because of how "recovery" has played out, I guess.

It's my fault in a lot of ways. I have not spoken up every time I should have in the past during our recovery. I should not have returned to medical school when I felt that was the wrong decision for the marriage. (Now I feel I am in too deep - one year left and over $100,000 in debt. However, if he told me he wanted me to quit school, wanted the relationship to work, if he told me he would stay in the marriage and all I had to do was leave school, I would drop it in a heartbeat.)

Bottom line, I have to speak with him. I'm scared. But this can't continue. It's not healthy for either of us. I would just prefer this to not having him at all.

By cooperating with his bad behavior, you make it impossible to EVER have a good marriage. Your behavior achieves the opposite result of what you say you want. Using "hope" as an excuse to allow him to abuse you has only served to embolden him, making your marriage worse. You have trained him to be an abuser and rewarded him for being a punk.

Has the result been a good marriage? No, but you continue to use the same FAILED tactics even though folks here have told you for YEARS it doesn't work.

*YOU* are the reason your marriage is so bad, V_planifolia.


Interpretations are cute and winsome, but you know that killing is wrong, despite anyone's "interpretation." You don't even need to be religious to know this. People who have no religion know right from wrong. No matter how much mental masturbation you engage in, you know right from wrong.

Do you have a female relative, friend, or counselor you can speak to? I am shocked at the lack of judgment reflected in your thinking, V. It is very unusual to see a grown woman who struggles so much with clear thinking. Is it because your husband gaslights you? Do you feel that your thinking is as muddled as it appears to objective observers?

I cannot argue w/ this. Especially since I am the one who started all of this in the first place, (although I know that's not what you meant).


The black and white religious interpretation is that taking of a life is determined by when the fetus has a soul. Religiously, we are not at that point yet. That is the basis of DH's thinking. However, many scholars (and myself) believe that once conception has happened, it is not our place to alter that. I am looking for religious credence because my personal convictions carry no weight w/ my DH. I am also concerned about the burden of sin I will be carrying around if I were to have an abortion.

I have my answer. I've been avoiding conflict and in the process signing on for more of the same, as you pointed out, ML.

It's not healthy for either of us. I would just prefer this to not having him at all.

Kiddo, if the "it" were mainlining heroin, would your second sentence be the same? If it were playing "Russian Roulette"?

Your answer would likely be "No" and would be swayed by the immediacy and visibility of the damage being done to yourself by the unhealthy joint behavior.

That his abortion demand/threat/extortion has not angered you beyond words, or elicited a sneer, and a slap across his face, demonstrates that the damage to your "self" is already well advanced.

I have often said to recovering WSs, and occasionally to their FBSs, that a marriage cannot long work with a "senior" and a "junior" partner. For a short period, as reconciliation is being established, it may have to exist as a stopgap. It cannot be the final, steady-state form of the union.

Good night. I'll check back in the AM.

Oh, (((((V)))))

I am not qualified to advise on dealing with a resentful BH, or how to change our thinking that we deserve abuse and maltreatment because of what we did.

What I do know is in no way would an abortion be "just compensation." JC is not supposed to hurt, for one. And this goes beyond something he is asking YOU to do. This affects a little soul that never asked for this, never did anything to deserve it. This child has nothing he/she needs to compensate FOR.

V, I had an abortion about 20 years ago. You never get over something like that. At least I didn't. And I only have myself to blame for it. I can't imagine if I blamed the father, who incidentally is the man I went on to marry and then betray.

I know all too well about having hope. How you read into every little thing and interpret it as a sign of something more. How hope can hold us in limbo for far too long.

I can't tell you what to do. I can only say if I could go back in time, my abortion would be another thing I would change. I thought at the time it was the right decision. I was so selfish. It took years before I allowed myself to think of it again and I thought I was over it...I wasn't over it. It is something else I asked God's forgiveness for, and something else I have to accept and live with, something else I have to regret and cannot change.

(((((V)))))

Ha, you are absolutely right. My thoughts feel incredibly muddled, and I am having an extremely difficult time reaching any resolution (as is obvious). I am pretty sure it is because I screwed up and there has been no resolution of that. I am not an equal to my DH.

If I speak w/ my family, they will hold this against my DH, (and that relationship is already fractured enough and one more reason that DH does not want to recover a relationship w/ me). I do not have any female friends I feel close enough to speak w/ this about. It is why I come here to the board - people who have been through infidelity and can understand how this all plays out.

Interestingly, I don't think I come across this way IRL. It's just the fractures in my own marriage that do it to me.

You don't have to "PROVE" your personal convictions to anyone. You know right from wrong and it is YOU who has to live with your conscience. I know you know right from wrong, friend. You don't need "credence," religious or otherwise to defend your decision not to kill your baby.


Exactly. Your conflict avoidance has wrought more conflict and trained your husband to be a bad, disrespectful, manipulative man. Enabling him in that pursuit has all but destroyed your marriage.

Dr Harley gave another board member this advice and it applies to you too:

Thank you for weighing in, WPG.


I hate my hopeful little self. I need an assertive, hopeful little self. ?

I am sorry to hear about your past experience w/ abortion. The burden of bad decisions compounded by more bad decisions is not something I would wish on anyone, and I thank you for offering your painfully gained wisdom.

Here's to healing:

The martyr act is getting old, dear. Please put away the hairshirt. You have long made amends for your crime.


What about getting a female counselor? I don't typically recommend counselors, but what you post is so alarming that I think just about any female with basic common sense could help you with some much needed reality checks. Your husband distorts reality and keeps you continually off balance.


When I am confused it is typically because I have lost my grip on reality for some reason. It may be that I am overly emotional about the issue or am lying to myself. In your case, I suspect it is because your husband keeps you continually off balance by manipulating you with guilt. He keeps you in control by threatening divorce.

Once you stop fearing this, he won't have that leverage anymore. You do realize that he would have to support you if you got divorced, right? You would not lose his support.

Is your husband going to read here and use your posts against you?

Here is one of his posts:

I think you should stop hiding his crimes from your family. They need to know what is going on so they can support you and help you with reality testing. Everyone should know the headgames he plays with you. Don't hide this from your family.

Why is his relationship so fractured with your family? let me guess.... They know or he is concerned they will know how badly he gaslights you?

How do you state that murder is moral and not evil?

Call ending a life by whatever less offense word you care to chose someone was still killed.

V,

First I want to say I understand your confusion, the questioning of yourself at every step. If your marriage stayed the way it is today for the rest of your life, could you be happy that way, because to give in to his demands will gain you exactly that: a lifetime of giving in to demands. Your emotional reaction to his ultimatum is telling you something you need to pay attention to. You dont even need to use a morality debate to answer this question. It seems to me that you believe an abortion would be a mistake and he believes it's inconsequential and something he wants. What unmitigated gall for him to demand that you subject your body to that in order to erase what his sperm did during a time of you meeting one of his ENs with good will on your part!

If you do this second or third or fourth thing against your convictions, how are you going to feel in the future? Yep, just one more "mistake" you made that you can feel bad about yourself for. And who's to say that he won't use the fact that you got an abortion to hurt your self esteem in the future if it so suits him?

His want is superceding your feelings so you are not his top priority. Doing this because he says so will not gain you that position of priority, regardless of whether it's an abortion or whether its wearing your hair the way he wants.

Excellent point. Down the road, he throws up in your face that you are not only an adulteress, but a murderer. He knows that you are against this. He is playing games with you, and this goes so far beyond anything that a repentant wayward should have to do to demonstrate willingness to meet needs and to create an environment that makes the BS feel safe again.


And this is so, so much more than just wearing your hair the way he wants, or any other need-meeting activity that a husband and wife could POJA.

V, you have offered me so much support in the past, and I care about you, and I am worried about you. I feel like we are much alike, you and I, in our feelings of self-loathing and shame over what we have done. Shame because we've gone past guilt and rather than feeling bad about what we've done, we feel bad about who we are.

Rationally I know that I am not defined by my past...I am defined by my present, and the actions I take, the thoughts in my head in the here and now. But emotionally, it's another story. Recently broken and I had a very bad evening which ended with him accusing me of being "bitter and negative" (which yes, I find myself quite often, he was telling the truth) and a later text conversation where I told him I knew he hated me, his response was "I don't hate you. I hate what you did." My response was that I was the sum of my actions. So I get it...I get the whole desire to wear the sackcloth and ashes, even though I *know* it is not productive, I *know* it is not a reflection of who I truly am, and I *know* I am no longer an adulteress.

In our thinking, we've got our redemption so tied up in what our victims think of us that we feel like we can't be a personal "success story" even if we aren't a marital "success story". Yes, we are the proximate cause of our marital breakdown, but at what point do we decide we have done all we can, and can do no more?

That's a rhetorical question, BTW, as I have a stupid, little hopeless self too. I hate her. The realist part of me knows that no matter how well I meet broken's needs, he's never going to come back and be a full partner in this marriage, like your H, V. You said:


HHH said something to me just a little while back. He said, "Your hope has turned into shackles and blinders." He is correct.

Both of us want what we believe our M could be. Neither of us want to let that hope go. I just can't get over him asking this of you. This is beyond anything that should be asked of a repentant wayward. It's not changing jobs or moving or any other action that would help a BS feel a measure of safety in a M. There are many things I would happily give up even now if broken were to want to return to our M, but I would not, could not, sacrifice my child. What if he said he would stay if you gave your boys up for adoption and never saw them again?

Great posts, lifetimelearner and WG.

MrsV, sacrifice is a disaster to marriage and you can see this with your own eyes. You are not engaging in "just compensation;" you are engaging in sacrifice. By doing so, you are training your husband to be manipulative, abusive and neglectful. Every time you reward him for manipulating you, it emboldens him.

Rather than recovering your marriage all this time, you and your husband have behaved like renters by trying to correct an imaginary unbalanced score. Your husband has capitalized on your guilt to reap a secondary gain, just as Dr Harley describes in his article.

That will continue until you decide to put a stop to it. Your marriage will never recover this way. Killing your unborn child will not change the game, other than to embolden him. Welcome to your future.

I discussed some of this w/ DH tonight. Nothing new gained by the conversation. Let me clarify, though, based on some of the previous comments, that much of this is the result of my own thinking - it is my idea that this is some form of JC, they are my foolish hopes that drive me to stay.

He does not make demands of me. He simply states it is my decision, and he will react accordingly. Which means, essentially, leave in this instance. Or in any instance, for that matter, as this situation is largely intolerable for him.

Per our discussion tonight, he thinks instead of readjusting what we are doing to be happier (e.g., meeting ENs, increasing UA, etc.), that we should have just separated on D-day. No matter what I do, what changes I have made, I will always be the girl who did this to him. And he is right. I cannot change the past. I want to offer a better future, but that is impossible for him with me. His life was "a raging success, by any measure" before he met me. Since then, he feels it has been anything but. The current pregnancy only highlights that.

FTR, he states that had he known I would have this much of an issue with terminating an unplanned pregnancy, he would never have been engaging in the activities that led to it in the first place.

There is no marriage. I have to admit that. I guess I just have to decide what I am going to do for me and for the children I already have to whom I have obligations.

Actually, literally, there is no marriage. As part of what I thought was JC at the time, I conceded to a legal divorce several months after D-day. I regret that, and that was a similar situation of he didn't think he could continue w/ the relationship w/o the guaranteed safeguards a legal divorce would grant him. We are still religiously married, and I have never thought differently; however, he thinks the opposite, that we are divorced and not married.

Maybe I will talk to my family. Oh, also FTR, the strain there is not due to my family disliking DH; it is because DH dislikes them intensely for their insufficient abhorrence of my infidelity and one-time support of me leaving him in the wake of my affair.

I guess, after my talk w/ him tonight, what it comes down to is: if I have this child, how will I raise him or her in a single-parent home w/ no income and trying to finish medical school, no father figure, and brothers who live in a separate home; or, do I not have this child and concentrate on finishing stupid school, raising the two boys that I do have w/ DH who is a wonderful father, and hope that the family unit stays intact and some healing begins in the years down the road?

The onus is on me. It has been this whole time. Now I just have to stop screwing it all up.

Thank you for the input, everyone. I really appreciate it.

Or you could file for divorce, get custody of your children and have spousal support while you have this child. After you have the child you can either raise it while you go back to finish school or you can put it up for adoption.

But don't worry about your income, he can't just stop supporting you. He will have to continue to support you and your boys. And your boys won't be living apart from their mother. This is America, after all.

And after you finish medical school, you will have the ability to make a great income and won't be dependent upon him.

You have much, much better options than staying with an abusive man who will perpetually punish and control you by bringing up your affair. You don't have to live like that. Having no marriage is better than living in an abusive marriage.

You are role modeling horrible behavior for your children in the bargain. Is it ok if one of your boys stays in a marriage with an abuser? Or worse yet, becomes a mean abuser himself?

I see it as a demand. "Do this or else I won't be there for you" is a demand no matter how much he tries to tell you it's your decision and he's not forcing you to do anything.
If it's an intolerable situation for him no matter what you do, then why are you still throwing yourself on that wall? ML is right: you can have your current children, your unborn child, and child support. You are proposing a false choice for yourself if its either your new baby or your boys. You don't have to make a "Sophie's choice."

VP, let me give you a metaphor:

Politics, to the wise, is the process by which "A" and "B" get together and plan a way to screw "C"!

If "C" is your unborn child, would you prefer to be called "A" or "B"?

The legal divorce gave him physical custody of the kids and no alimony for me. As at the time of the divorce, I am not interested in him for his money, though it has I occurred to me that I need a plan in place should he leave.

Regardless, the issue is me making a decision, period, especially for the 2 boys I have already and the 3rd child as yet unborn.

More later. Thank you.

Now I'm confused. I thought the divorce petition wasn't granted, so you're not divorced. If not, there are no real, binding custody issues or support issues. I recommend that you go see a lawyer instead of letting your husband be the arbiter of truth.

He stayed with you as if you were married since 2008 so that indeed changes everything. As a matter of fact, you're now pregnant with his third child, proving in a legal since that for whatever reason he decided to stay married to you, regardless of any divorce decree.


Jesus said to the men for that one who never committed sin to cast the first stone at the adulteress. None did, and the one who had the right to judge told her he wouldn't, either, but informed her to change her ways. Have you changed your ways? It seems so. You appear to be putting him in a morally superior position and then allowing him to cast stones at you.

You are as valuable and worthy of love as your husband is, as any of the rest of us sinners are. Allow yourself to believe that. Don't let him go beyond your boundaries to hurt you, even if it means letting him walk away.

Thanks, SugarCane.

I still think it might be valuable for Mrs_V to speak with a lawyer herself.

I have to say it is unlikely she can get full custody of sons now if he fights her. Looks like he can just leave with both of them, since he has legal custody. Overturning that at this stage is no mean feat. But, V, you may still be entitled to support, especially given the current pregnancy's impact on your earning potential. (I'm talking support for you; obviously he's on the hook for child support.)

See a lawyer ASAP to suss out your options. The situation is intolerable.

Does your BH have any doubt that the child is not his?

Or is this going to be an OC?
Too many stories read to keep them straight at times.

Oh, of course. I was just clarifying that they did divorce.

Wait a minute? You are divorced??

So you already gave away the farm - and your children - in your penance campaign? What in the world were you thinking?

You need to get ahold of a lawyer and see what can be done to protect you. And for God's sake, go see a good counselor or life coach who can help you in your decision making skills. This is really pathetic for a woman of your age. You are too old to be this gullible and hapless.

I have to say that when this thread started in 2008, there were a handful of BHs - they were betrayed husbands, which I think is significant - who seemed to feel that getting divorced and handing over custody was JC, since the H was asking for this. They seemed to think that if the H would be happier knowing that this poster wasn't staying with him for security then the marriage might have a chance of surviving.

These were husbands who haunted the threads of certain FWWs and made sure they knew that they could never pay back the damage they had done with their affairs. They were of the "if you are serious about being repentant and remorseful you will put up with whatever your H does, forever if need be" school of advice. There was little to no Harley advice being offered at that time.

This poster was pregnant with her second child at the time this thread was started, and her state would not allow a divorce under those circumstances (I believe this is common across the states). Their first petition was denied. They therefore waited until that child was born and petitioned for divorce again...all the time posting here for advice, and not being advised to the contrary. I understand now that Dr H is firmly against FWWs (more so than FWHs) signing away their rights in the form of custody agreements or post-nups, because they are then held to ransome to the marriage in the fear of losing their kids. That is no way to work on recovery.

I believe Dr H's position on post-nups for FWHs might be different, because of their role in financially supporting the family. Certainly Dr H was more open to my H signing one if I felt too threatened by his long-running affair to commit to recovery. But for a FWW who gives up a single affair completely and returns to the marriage - no contract or pre-nup. I have heard that he advises FWWs to tear up any pre-nup that was signed before she sought advice from him. I understand, though, that as kerala says, it will be no easy matter to "tear up" the custody agreement that this poster signed as part of the divorce, which is of course, fully legal.

So, although the suggestion to divorce came from this poster's BH and not from the board...here we are.

And on this: this couple coached with Steve Harley for about six sessions, and I'm sure he did not know of this plan. Certainly they (or at least the H, who started his own thread while pretending not to be this poster's H) do not seem to have been following the Harley recovery plan all this time.

I was here during the period when post-nups were being advised left, right and centre.

Don't have time to do a search, but I do seem to recall it being standard advice, for at least a couple of years.

Perhaps it was something that Dr. H simply had not had brought to his attention. Because, looking at it now, a post-nup surely is the ultimate in "renters" thinking.

I realize that that is very different from this sitch - I don't recall DIVORCE ever being recommended as an MB strategy, per se.

Isn't it interesting to see the devastation that occurs on these forums that don't use MB concepts? Or uses them selectively? Look how many marriages were destroyed [or are still in limbo] from the bad advice given over on the old "Emotional Needs" forum year after year?

I remember when the roving gang of BH's used to batter FWW's with the concept of sacrifice. While it is heartbreaking to its effect here, MrsV greatly contributed to her own demise and continues to do so today.

MrsV gets some kind of payoff for her perpetual penance and I cannot figure that out. Maybe Dr Harley can. MrsV, would you email Dr Harley at his radio show and tell him what is going in your marriage? Let him know how you sacrificed your marriage and your children and are now pregnant with #3. I think you desperately need his influence in your life.

Further: the religion in question in this marriage seems to be Islam, since there was mention of stoning adulterers to death.

As I understand it, the religion dictates that fathers have the normal presumption - or whatever the proper term would be - of custody after divorce. A father might not take very young children away from their mother, but he would consider doing so with a child over about age 7. (So I understand, and I realise that I might be misinformed.) So, since this poster talks about "our religion", we can assume that she is in favour of this and willingly agreed to it on religious grounds.

I don't know if civil divorce while remaining religiously married is ever recommended by the faith, but the custody agreement seems normal. It is not an MB solution, though.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

The divorce was in the months after D-day, when I was 26 and even more mentally at sea. I think I asked the forum about it at the time, and there were those for and against it. DH didn't feel he could try to rebuild the relationship w/o the safeguards granted by a legal divorce.

I would say my judgment then, as now, was colored by my desire to make up for what I did and 'win' DH back at any cost. Clearly that has not worked out so well.

SugarCane, thank you for such a concise summary. A divorce never has been MB philosophy JC. I brought it up when coaching w/ Steve, but he wanted to focus on EPs, ENs, etc. I assume that had we still coached w/ him in the time leading up to the petition that was granted, he would have advised against it.

There are a handful of times in 'recovery' that stand out to me as knowingly bad decisions made for what I thought were good reasons. The divorce is one of those. It is certainly obvious that I need to find different reasons.

ML, you are correct that I have contributed to this, and only one spouse subscribing to MB philosophy makes recovery from what I did that much harder. My goal can't continue to be recovery at all costs. I have to admit that possibility apparently never existed.

This deserves acknowledgement, WPG, for how eloquently, accurately spot-on it is. I am sorry for your painfully gained wisdom, but appreciate it all the same.

Logically, I am not that girl who had the affair in 2008. Emotionally, well...I think the emotional part of me is driving many a good MB poster here up the wall.

It seems to me you are thinking a bit more clearly today. Have you thought about a plan? Are you working that plan? I mean your plan. I think your husband has clearly let you know that he is not onboard with MB, so are you going to find out what your options are at this point?

On a side note, I just had to chuckle at the clarity and "tell it like it is" posts of SugarCane and MelodyLane. Their posts and WPG's post actually helped me, too. I have periods of terrible emotional angst myself.

I am thinking more clearly today, I believe. I'm glad it is reflected in my posts!

I took Mel's advice and spoke w/ my family today. I also removed a semi-artificial deadline by which to make a decision, thus backing myself out of that corner.

I am developing my own plan, and, importantly, I've come to terms w/ letting go of the hope and being prepared to face what has seemed the worst outcome for a long time.

That's good to hear, Mrs. V!

Are you going to write to Dr H? Please do it tonight.

Yes, I think that is excellent advice. I will post my email here.

I think this is too long. Can anyone advise edits? Am I missing anything?

_________
Hi Dr. Harley and Joyce,

I apologize in advance for the length of this email. I tried to include the major points, and those turned out to be quite a few.

I have been a member of the MB site since 2008, after I confessed to my husband that I had an affair. He states that he stayed largely for the two young children that we had, but I believed there was hope that we would be able to recover from my infidelity. He even purchased multiple coaching sessions w/ Steve for my birthday after the affair. I bought into the program more than my DH, and I had incredible amounts of hope that we could get through this. I also had incredible amounts of guilt, especially in response to my DH's continued pain and resentment. This has been the pattern for 5 years now, and it has driven a number of decisions that I knew at the time to be bad decisions that I justified with what I thought were the right reasons. For example, some months after D-day, I acquiesced to a legal divorce that gave my DH primary custody of our children, no alimony, no strings attached divorce. If he felt that's what he needed to heal, to feel safe in proceeding w/ the relationship, then that's what I would give him. We remained religiously married, and I, at least, in all respects consider us still married. I no longer believe DH does.

The issue is I fear repeating the same mistakes. We are unexpectedly pregnant. As I mentioned, at the time of my affair, one of the principle reasons DH stayed was for the kids, (although as time has gone on, that has become the only reason he stayed). His plan has been to leave once the kids are older. Accordingly, DH refuses to have any more children. I have mixed feelings - while the timing is not great, another child is a blessing. DH issued an ultimatum: if I have this child, he is leaving. He states there is no problem, and that this "is simple" and "easy" - just get an abortion. I have enough sin for which to atone, and I do not need to add further sin by having an abortion. This is a very real concern of mine, yet DH mocks and disparages my attempts to address this. (Understandably so. No matter what my religious convictions are now, they will never compare to my obvious lack of them during the affair.)

I realize a lack of UA and decreased meeting of intimate ENs impacts this. I feel we are at a point where none of that matters: DH will leave no matter what, any hopes I have of a restored marriage and intact family will be dashed, and I will be left with nothing that matters...and an abortion. He "jokes" about me being in California (= far away) doing whatever I want while he lives his life elsewhere - and it hurts, because I know he would be happier that way.

Part of me feels like me having an abortion is Just Compensation, as would be leaving and letting him live his life in peace. However, doing those things will break apart the family that we do have, that still offers benefits to our two boys. I don't want any of these situations to be the case. Unfortunately, I think my actions in 2008 dictated the current circumstances, and there is painfully little I can do about it.

I made some changes to tighten it up, it but didn't have time employ the track changes stuff. Sorry.

_________
Hi Dr. Harley and Joyce,


I have been a member of the MB site since 2008, after I confessed to my husband that I had an affair. He states that he stayed largely for the two young children that we had, while I maintained hopes for recovery. We completed several sessions with Steve Harley.

Throughout the last five years I have felt incredibly guilty which has led me to make bad decisions. The most important of these is that I granted him a divorce with full custody or of our children and no alimony for me. We continue to live together and would be considered married in our religion. I am no longer sure my DH thinks of himself as married to me in any sense.

Now, I am unxpectedly pregnant. My DH's plan has always been to stay only while we are rearing the children, so he refuses to have any more. He says that he will not continue to live with me if I have the child.

My own feelings are mixed but basically I do not wish to terminate. In particular I feel that an abortion would compound my sin. My DH mocks and disparages my feelings about this. There is a part of me that agrees with him.

I realize a lack of UA and decreased meeting of intimate ENs impacts our situation. My DH is not interested in MB at this time.

Part of me feels like me having an abortion is Just Compensation, as would be leaving him. However, doing those things will break apart the family that we do have, that still offers benefits to our two boys. I don't want any of these situations to be the case.

I look forward to your advice.

kerala, thank you so much for the clarity in parsing out my story.

If you've already sent the email then ignore this, but I am not clear what your question is.

If it is whether you should have an abortion, then I'm sure you know that Dr H would never say that you should, under any circumstances. But apart from that, I'm not sure what you are asking him. I would suggest asking whether there is anything you could and should be doing to save this marriage now, with this third child firmly in the picture.

Have you booked a consultation with a lawyer yet about the existing custody situation? I think this is a matter of urgency.

Hi SC,

My email has several questions: what qualifies as JC; what does not; and does JC have a time limit of sorts on it? In addition, I am including the request for his advice on recovering the marriage given the current situation, (as you mentioned).

I have not spoken any further w/ my DH about these things, and I need to do that before proceeding with any other plans.

What things are you thinking you need to talk about with him? Before proceeding with what plans? The plan to send in your email?

Already emailed - I took kerala's suggested revisions and included the questions I mentioned to SugarCane.

Other plans include everything that may be required depending on how the baby discussion goes. (I am deliberately obfuscating )

She must related to a good friend of mine on here.

Interesting. This BH�s situation is fairly close to mine. Legally separated, not religiously divorced (a difference is no SF � SF with an adulteress would be so, so icky.) But, I am confused. Again. I will be interested in Dr H�s advice/reply, if any.

Why is this quote about the most important mutual decision they made right after DDay considered a bad decision? Other than in restrospect by the adulteress, that is.

�Throughout the last five years I have felt incredibly guilty which has led me to make bad decisions. The most important of these is that I granted him a divorce with full custody or of our children and no alimony for me.�

According to Dr H, any BS who wants a D has his whole-hearted blessing! Thus, a quick D is perfect MB dogma. This BH wanted a D. That he allowed the adulteress to stay in the house after she begged to be allowed to stay rather than throw her into the street could be seen as compassion for both her and for their children. Until one hears directly about this from the BH himself, opinions to the contrary, including mine, are uninformed.

Anyway, they are not married. They are roommates by mutual agreement. That this adulteress continues to stay in the house and provide SF (and accepts in return all the ENs he provides her, like FS) has been her sole decision. The consequences of her decision to stay are faint reflection on him. They agreed to this and he does not want to change the agreement. Where is the ambiguity? I don�t see it.

Segue to a related MB question � when getting a divorce, why would anyone in their right mind not get a pit bull attorney and not go for the jugular of the adulteress (or adulterer). Why is this BH being condemed for doing what was indeed the best thing for him at the time? His actions after DDay are generally supported by Dr H and MB in general.

Dang, I get so confused by these adulteress threads. As usual, advice to adulteresses on how to treat their BH contradicts Dr H�s advice to BH�s in general. Yes, I know he gives different advice to BH�s than to BW�s. But, his advice to BH�s is, if you are going to separate or divorce after a wife�s adultery get everything you can as fast as you can including all the child custody legally possible (c.f. the thread on When to Call it Quits, Part 3 in Newsletters). This BH appears to have done it right, according to MB. That the adulteress remained in the marital house or otherwise did not ride off into the sunset with soulmate love-of-her-life OM is entirely her decision.

Oh, perhaps I missed it, but I did not I see where anyone asked if this adulteress got covertly pregenant on purpose. As a trap. I doubt her BH is ever going to belive otherwise. At the very least, she vilolated enthusiastic agreement yet again. And now she is getting advice to use enthusiastic agreement to trap by default this BH into having to do something he said he did not want to do way back when, and still does not want to do. I remain confused. This BH appears to have done everything right according to texbook MB. He is very angry because of all the trickery. And now he is being criticised for the adulteress�s decisions and the adulteress�s actions.

I hope this BH relents, actually, and agrees to remarry and raise this new child. IMO, abortion is as wrong as adultery. More so.


One last thing � it is not �incredible guilt� that led this WW to make her bad decsions. This is disingineous. Her decision making is questionable from the very start of her adultery.

Well, somebody has to say it, and I haven't been edited for a while, so it might as well be me!

Aphelion, three years ago VP was an adulteress, and you were an abusive [censored].
The difference is that, today, she is no longer an adulteress!

Do me a favor, Mods, and don't zap this until Mr A gets a chance to read it! How about 48 hours? Even he can read those three sentences in that amount of time!

NG, I really thought he'd been done in at the denouement of the last James Bond movie...

Nope, like some troglodyte swamp monster, until it's
beheaded,
castrated,
dissolved in an acid bath, and
incinerated in an atomic pile,
it just keeps returning!

Well, al least you know what the exact cost would be. Killing your child. This is rather like the film Sophie's Choice.

Footnote. This is one of the strangest threads I've ever read. I never posted on this thread until just now, but somehow one of my posts was quoted. A BH posted using his WW's forum identity. MBers argue over the meaning of 'hypocrisy'. Throw in a theory of a religious divorce that somehow allows non-marital co-habitation .... and you have a movie for the Lifetime channel.

Here is my advice:
YOU get an attorney. Make certain you have sole custody of the child your BH wants you to kill. maybe not possible, but try.

NG,

Taking offense only emboldens him. He takes your expression of upset as a demonstration of your supposed cognitive dissonance vis a vis that you truly regret recovering, don't really like former, cough, waywards yourself but need to tell yourself you do since you stayed married to one and, no doubt, that you secretly harbor deep seated anger at your wife which comes out sideways towards him when under the direct threat of his masterful prose & brutally honest and truthful analysis.

Aph is really to be pitied. I feel sorry for the guy. But consider his value on these boards as the poster boy for Plan C. He's what happens when you don't divorce AND deliberately choose not to recover...to remain in a loveless marriage. A powder keg marriage of contempt and mistrust. It's the purposefully un-repaired leaky faucet of resentment....drip, drip...drip. Resentment he won't express to his wife so he uses this forum to express it to us and any wayward he feels like targeting.

[but wait...I just noticed he said he's separated now...that's new...perhaps individual recovery is finally beginning for the curmudgeon]

Finally...what this forum or MB advises a BH husband to do or not do doesn't apply here as we aren't advising a BH in this situation. We are advising a former ww that wants to save her marriage and family. This is marriage builders...not "whatever-the-BH-wants-builders". If Aph thinks she should suck it up as the former ww, that's his opinion. Fortunately, there are others here that disagree. No biggie.

Godspeed.

Mr. W

It is always interesting when Aphelion weighs in. Aphelion, you are right and wrong in so many ways.

Pepperband, you are right that I have managed to make my life that of Lifetime movie fodder. I'm fairly certain my DH agrees, and that it is not a good thing. I do not think it is a good thing - no Lifetime movie roles for me, please! Thank you for your advice.

NG, Mr. W, thank you for the levity.

Mr W,
You know something? You're right! I should have addressed my note to V-P, switching the pronouns as required, but making the same point.

I will incorporate that tactic going forward. Thanx.

This WW has made many bad decisions from the affair till now.

However this BH got his divorce as not a means to end his relationship with his WW but as a subsitute RA.

He let WW stay in the home so he would have live cook, maid, nanny, shopper, cleaner, and sex worker.

His abouse of his WW is worse then what his WW did.

As to crying foul that he knocked up his own wife. All I can say is what is he and others smoking.

I am not a doctor, I did not even sleep well last night as I do do not sleep well most nights, and I camp, so I never sleep in a Holiday Inn.

Though with my limited knowledge I have heard of all types of birth control failing, even peopple on the pill, snip jobs, etc.

So when this H kept having SF with his W and now be mad that she is pregnant. This BH has no leg to stand on.

There is only one way to guarantee not to get a woman pregnant. He refused to keep it in his pants.

Interesting points of view, but I'll leave it alone. V, I hope you really did send in that email. When Joyce calls you, keep strong and excercise your right (against your own self doubt) to talk with Dr. Harley if the chance is offered to you. He does a fantastic job of getting to the salient facts of the matter. I also hope you are still turning to your family for support: they can also help you from getting clouded in your vision. You need and deserve some help from people who have your best interest at heart.

What do you think of Dr. Harley's answer?

Oh, sheesh. Few answers, many personal attacks. As usual. Perhaps I should provide a few answers, where I can�

�Aphelion, three years ago VP was an adulteress, and you were an abusive [censored].� I was? How so? Are you accusing me of spouse abuse? Is this worthy of reporting to the mods? No abuse whatsoever. She would also tell you so. FWW lives her life and I live mine. She has anything and everything she wants (except me). She can leave any time. She can go where she wants. She can do what she wants. She can even go back to 10 year-long OM if she wants. She can find a new OM if she wants. She can find 99 new OMs if she wants. But she cannot hurt me. I am content. And I am safe. Dispite being wired to do it again, as Dr H claims, she can never hurt me again. Can you figure out why?

�Even he can read those three sentences in that amount of time!� Hah. Cute. I would not have made your deadline if I hadn�t postponed a flight to London this morning.

�We are advising a former ww that wants to save her marriage and family.� Uh, read the thread again. They are not married. She only wants to save her lifestyle � that is all I see.

�� this BH got his divorce as not a means to end his relationship with his WW but as a subsitute RA. He let WW stay in the home so he would have live cook, maid, nanny, shopper, cleaner, and sex worker.� I think you should have to prove this. I don�t see it. He wanted a D. She wanted to stay in the home. They came to what sounds like an enthusiastic agreement. Very MB. Now she wants to change the agreement. He does not. So the agreement stays unchanged. Still very MB.

�So when this H kept having SF with his W and now be mad that she is pregnant. This BH has no leg to stand on.� I agree regarding the pregnancy. If the child is his. I also agree with Pep. A valid option is for this adulteress is to move away, get an attorney and sue for child support. If it is his.

This is mostly a thread that is picking on a BH who also apparently made some unfortunate mistakes but is not here to defend himself. Until he is, it is all speculation. And typical. I am mildly surprised the original adulery is not yet elevated to another of Dr H�s �unfotunate mistakes" by now.

Relax. I will not post on this thread again. But, IMO unrepresented BH�s deserve a bit more empathy. No one knows what this BH is really doing, or what he is really thinking. It is coming second hand from an adulteress. I don�t believe much of it.

He represented himself very well by posting to her pretending to be an observer, and denying he was her H when people began to be suspicious. She found out that Mike was indeed her H. He made his feelings about her very clear both on this thread and on his own. He isn't unrepresented. He chooses not to represent himself openly, and now, not at all.

He can represent himself as soon as he likes - I am sure he is reading every word she writes, as he always was.

Oops, maybe I wasn't clear.

V_,
What do you think of Dr. Harley's answer and Joyce's thoughts regarding your situation?

Aphelion, I post this to you because I feel your perspective, as irksome as it may sometimes be, is not too dissimilar from some statements my DH has made over these past years since D-day.

I am not engaging in a discussion with you regarding the myriad assertions you make in your posts. I will only state that, while some of your sentiments may be on target, many of your declarations are erroneous.

Thank you for being a cautionary tale. I mean that sincerely, and I wish you peace.

I missed it! Now I have to wait for it to be archived. Doh! I am flattered they chose to address my email. I later received an email from Joyce regarding receiving a copy of "Love Busters," which I forgot all about when I emailed. I haven't yet read that book, and look forward to reading in detail about LBs.

SC, this actually was that friend. DH agrees it was foolish of him to share his MB account information, and should have been more suspicious as to why.

The friend was on target w/ his story, though, as he was trying to covertly obtain advice for my DH (unbeknownst to DH).

The larger problem is that DH feels I misrepresent him. I do not intend to do that, but I include my own speculations that I believe fuel judgment that may be levied at DH.

I must stick to the facts when I post, and increase O&H + communication with DH to make sure I am posting accurate information.

I'm pretty sure many of you will think I'm being snowed. Or willfully blind to the red flags that others may see. I think it's just that I haven't done a good enough job w/ word/post choice.

Update:

DH and I have discussed things more. He clarified his intent regarding his statement of if I have this baby, he will leave. He does not recall saying it. He states that what he was getting at during that discussion was that his load is heavy and incredibly burdensome already, and adding one more child to that may be too much for him. He would physically/emotionally/mentally breakdown.

I was honest w/ him about my conflicted thoughts on this, that a part of me considered an abortion was the ultimate way to show him I would do whatever it takes to recover, that I was sorry. He and I both pointed out how the way things currently are is unhealthy. He carries too much resentment and pain, and I have a burden of guilt. While the guilt cannot be undone, the weight of both his and my emotions are keeping us stuck virtually at D-day.

I discussed my desire for things to change. I told him I would like to keep the family intact, but there is a clear need to do something different for the relationship. We talked about not bringing up the affair, though we both feel like that is similar to saying "Forget it and move on w/ your lives." I told him that I don't think it's about forgetting it - neither he nor I would do well by that - but I think it's more about not letting it dominate our thoughts day in, day out, and our time and energy could have been better spent these last years redirecting our thoughts and focusing on the marriage, meeting ENs, etc.

He mentioned that, prior to my affair, things were not bad. It would've all been fine. I replied that I agree, but I didn't have the affair because things weren't bad. I had the affair because I had terrible boundaries and was incredibly selfish. It was a hard, hard lesson learned, but I feel I got my head on straight and became a much better partner (barring my adulterous past) in the marriage in the next few years after D-day. Even w/ a few years between us and D-day, though, it was still incredibly raw and hurtful for DH. Time had helped, but not enough. However, my subsequent return to school greatly impacted any strides we could continue to make forward w/ healing. Now that we have had more time pass, and w/ the experience learned, we may be in a better position to try and really fix things.

So far we are emphasizing UA time and meeting ENs. I was honest with him about my desires, and my hope to start working MB more, so to speak, and see results. This probably seems like a long and unnecessarily detailed update about nothing concrete, but it is a step forward.

This sounds better.

Thank you, Pep. I am glad you think so.

...his load is heavy and incredibly burdensome already, and adding one more child to that may be too much for him. He would physically/emotionally/mentally breakdown.

Wow! What a wienie!
That might be a DJ (like I care! ), and maybe I'm interpreting your precise words, instead of his meaning, or his actual utterances, but seriously, THAT'S what he has to offer?

This would be the weight that broke the stem of "Mr Hot-House-Flower"? Boy, that is certainly yet another sign of the decline of this civilization!

I did write I would not post on your thread again. But, I would like to say it is good you have gotten off the dime. It sometimes takes an irritant.

As far as being a CT, good for me. Actually, I fully admit MB worked like a charm killing the VLTA. I have no complaints there. But, this generating/recovering romantic love stuff. Ugh. I seem to be immune. Does not work on me any more. RL is just another weapon with which one will be hurt, again. I don�t need it. I have made a new and much better life without it. All is good.

I�m off to GB on Monday and wont be reading here for a few weeks. So, best of luck to you and BH.

eta: BTW, there is a difference between culpability and guilt (though some dictionaries list them as synonyms, they are not). One cannot be erased, but the other often can. You and BH should explore this.


PS: NeverGuessed, I think I need to yield the title of Biggest MB Meanie back to you.

A skosh on the heavy-handed side, NG. NO?

I admit the 180 degree departure from 'you must destroy this baby' to 'lets try and figure this out' was not foreseen, or at not so quickly without some MB technique in play.

Some of us can role play Mr. V's side too darn well and I admit the pressures levied on him (us) are immense. To be riding this roller coaster and then be smashed over the head with a unexpected pregnancy would make nearly any BH go bonkers. Sure, I would never demand my wife terminate my baby should we find ourselves in a similar spot, but I almost understand the loss of mental control.

Hopefully, he'll allow her to carry as stress-free as possible by supporting her and she'll continue to make amends to him.

Yeah lets remember this is an open forum..no handholding allowed, or expected..right ppl?

I like Rugby...

I'm confused again. I thought you relayed that he discussed with you having an abortion, even saying to you that it was "inconsequential" and not a big deal. Are you saying that he really didn't say that he would leave if you had the baby? Does he still hold that he might break down if you have it?

In this discussion, did he say he was willing to implement the MB plan for recovery along with you?

He said those words. He does not recall that. There have been a number of times where those positions have been reversed, and I am not pursuing that phrase given our recent discussion.

Our previous discussions were not frank on my part, and I shared w/ him a few concerns about obtaining an abortion while keeping most of my thoughts to myself regarding the state of the marriage, the feeling of being left on my own to figure this out after the threat of him or baby, and the inevitable demise of what had become an intolerably unhealthy relationship.

This most recent discussion was much more open and honest. I shared w/ him my remembrance of that ultimatum, what that meant to me, and my assessment of our current relationship and admission of its untenability. While he feels another child would be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, he clarified that he would never abandon his child. He was surprised that I would think that of him, and I told him I would never think that of the old him, but feared that my actions had driven him and his pain to be capable of making such a decision now.

I am not sure what changed for him. And it's only been 1-2 days. While he did not verbally commit to the MB plan, I did not ask that of him. However, we have been following through on a number of the MB suggestions I brought up in our recent discussion. I am happy with that, and hope the continued implementation of MB will help.

Interesting. If V's H insists he did not, in fact, say what she represented here to us (and, I mean, what could be more specific than a request to have an abortion) what would MB say about that? Is it a DJ to continue to think that he did?

V, how do you feel about the fact that you are not legally married? Are you enthusiastic about that? If not, what are you going to do about it?

Interesting question, kerala. For clarification, the debate is not about an abortion, the question was whether or not he issued the ultimatum of baby versus him. While I recall what he said w/ 100% certainty, I am deferring to his comments during our most recent discussion. I do not want to worsen our inability to move forward by repeating the past mistakes of holding onto wrongs.


Ahh, this question. This has bothered me since we legally D'd. My long-term plan is to remedy that. Our latest discussion would have been a good time to raise that issue, but for now I think working the program for a while will be required. To be honest, I unconsciously backburner-ed this issue while tackling the baby / family intact / family not intact concerns.

Tha makes no sense to me.

Was this your H, or wasn't it? http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=163477&Number=2501094#Post2501094

As I recall, MikeX's texts came from the same IP address (their home) on days when V was pretty sure he could not have been there.

I'm sorry V, and you likely don't want to hear it, but it sounds like you're being gaslighted.

Don't get me wrong - I am happy that you are starting to discuss things more constructively, but stuff like this makes me concerned.

ETA: I can understand WHY your H might do that. It wasn't very nice, but we're on a site that routinely deals with marital infedelity, so let's keep a little perspective. But, to continue to lie and obfuscate about it - THAT is a problem.

I'm confused. MODS confirmed the IP address was from your home. So how can it still be your H's friend?

If the friend was using that computer, I think.

Indeed, the friend was using the computer. When I assumed the friend was out of the country, the reality was he would occasionally visit the city here on behalf of his organization, at which point he would meet up w/ DH - @ work, @ our apartment.

I did not want to get into this issue, as DH and I have long since resolved it. However, it is unfair to him if by silence I perpetuate the original inaccurate conclusion that MikeX was in fact DH.

So, you two are really just living together. There's an article here that discusses that caring for children means caring for each other. Dr. Harley says in there "If parents love their children, and want the best for their children, they must do everything possible to preserve their romantic relationship." (Emphasis mine). http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_care.html

Anyway, maybe this issue is something that should be vetted in the short term, for how can both of you work on your marriage if you guys don't have one? Just a thought.

Was able to listen to the radio show. Dr. Harley reiterated what was discussed here regarding the parameters of JC. He labeled my DH's actions as that of an abuser. I don't think DH is abusive. I think he is hurt. But I see Dr. Harley's point.

The good news is Dr. Harley and Joyce specified that IF DH was not interested in working on the marriage, then I should seek outside help. However - I think he is! Time will tell, but continued baby steps forward.

Were you out of town when MikeX started his own thread, in April 2011? I'm not talking about the posts to your thread in September 2011, which you accept were posted from your H's computer by his friend.

The moderator said that the posts from April 2011 were also from the same place.


Are you saying that he used your H's computer several months earlier, to start a thread as a husband in a marriage very similar to yours at the time?

Why would he have done this?

He visited DH's work on several occasions. He also stayed in the city for several days at a time. As far as I am aware, he only visited our apartment once.

So, yes, he was able to use H's computer / server to post multiple times at such intervals.

He does this sort of thing because he thinks he can help out DH. I believe the misconception exists that the MB forum "is on my side," and DH posting would be met w/ a not-impartial audience. Hence, the friend creating this story, thinking he could obtain impartial advice for my DH.

I think that you are so concerned with the idea that Just Compensation is anything that your H asks for that you refuse to countenance that he may be going too far, even when Dr H tells you this.

You were so concerned with JC that you agreed to divorce him and give him custody of the kids while "working on recovery" i.e. looking after his house and family and meeting his ENs.

You are so concerned that nothing he does to you after your affair could be as bad as what you did to him via the affair that you will not see that the person posting was him all along, and that as MikeX he was telling you his real feelings about recovering from the affair.

There is a balance to be drawn between, on the one hand, radical honesty about our feelings after the affair and our despair for the future, and on the other, lovebusting. Dr Harley says, in the book Surviving an Affair, that he persuaded Sue not to tell Jon in the first few weeks that she did not love him after the affair, and to work on UA time and meeting needs to see if her feelings changed, which they did, slowly.

On the online course we are told not to tell our spouses about low scores in the lovebank inventory, because this will be demoralising to the marriage. After working the course our scores should go up, and we can be honest about our past feelings at a later date.

Your H, or his friend, posting as MikeX, revealed your H's very demoralised feelings, which are wholly understandable. What is not understandable or acceptable is for him to keep this deception going that he had nothing to do with those posts and that it is okay to continue to deceive you.

His willingness to carry on deceiving you rather than coming clean about the posts, and his nudging you towards abortion to please him shows to me that Dr Harley is much more accurate in his assessment of your H than you are.

I don't think V_ is willing to hear and accept the truth of her situation. So, V_, you don't think he's using abusive tactics, he's just hurt. Abusive tactics are actions, behaviors, being hurt is a feeling or emotion. Even when one is really hurt, the answer doesn't have to be "use Lovebusters." One could say that after 5 years of JC, the abusive tactics should be gone. They are not. You let him lie to you and alter the reality of what has been said and done, and you let him get away with it by believing (or pretending) to believe him.

Does posting here cause trouble for you with him? Do some of the things we say here cause trouble? Does he pressure you to "set the record straight" here on this thread?

That's it, I think. The dynamic must be quite uncomfortable for her when he is criticized here, given that he reads everything she says.

ETA: In which case, we can't really expect her to answer.

For the record: I don't really expect her to answer the point I made. I wasn't asking a question. I was challenging the absolute nonsense she has been told about the friend creating a thread to post his "own" story when it was really her H's story, and posting this via her H's PC using his login details. I'm amazed that she actually seems to be taking that fairy story seriously.

So I don't expect an ansewer, but if I am given a bullcrap answer (via the "friend" of the H) then I will challenge it.

Dear, loving trusting V. planifolia,

you trust your husband because you want him to be trustworthy. You don't want to live in a cold cruel world where your husband does not love you and where he will threaten to take away your children because you are having his child.

Oh, I lived it. I know.
- if I love him enough, some of the love will come back to me
- if I love him enough, he will see that I am to be trusted
- if I do anything for him he will realize how much I love him
- if I go the other mile, my happiness is just around the corner
- just this one last thing to make him happy with me
- the poor dear will have psychological problems, it would be cruel to keep the child that he does not want
- he is just going through an unhappy phase, after that he will be the old wonderful him again
- he is just behaving like this because he is stressed
- he would never mean to say something like that normally
- we will be a happy family again if I just meet all of his needs
- he is hurt, that makes him say things he would not normally say
- the real him is not abusive, he is not himself at the moment
- I am to blame for his behaviour

From one doctor to the other:
- would you do to someone you love what he does to you?
- do you think it is plausible that another person, who does not know that his IP-adress will be verified will only post on this forum when he is in your city and will not even once post from the comfort of their own home?
- please seek legal advice BEFORE you lose your children
- you know that if you do get an abortion allthough you feel you are killing your child, that you are predestined to get psychological problems

He has already let you know that he does not feel bound to you via legal nor religious vows. That does not prevent him from having sex with you. What does that make you in his eyes? I know it is painful to think about and that you are desperately loving him and clinging to him, but that is your truth. Wat is his? His story changes all the time. What does that tell you? What will he tell the children about you when they grow up? What has he told his parents?

As a doctor-to-be you must know the experiment from the little monkeys who wer clinging to the wire surrogate mother (Harlow experiment). Who are you clinging to? To someone who makes you safe or to someone who holds the strings that can make your world collapse?

I am praying for you and I hope that you will be allright. But some day in the future you may think back pity your poor self. And than you will wish you yould be able to hug that girl with all that she has to go through and make her feel safe.

No woman should have to go through what you are going through. No woman should be pregnant and feel that her baby is not welcome in this world. No woman should go through the feeling of being rejected by the father of her baby in that vulnerable time in her life. Regardless if you are expecting your third child or your first.

Dear VP, I will pray for you. Please look out for yourself.

May God bless you and your three children.

This is Mrs. V's husband. I came across these postings very recently (well after Mrs. V's last posting) and, after a lengthy conversation with Mrs. V, I didn't think it would be helpful to post. However, Mrs. V requested me to post to provide some closure and I'm complying with the request. (Just for the record, I have not asked Mrs. V to stop posting (much less "to set the record straight") - she independently decided not to post for the time being but may decide to do so in the future (it's her decision).)

Current State of the Marriage: In case people get the impression that I'm just lounging on the couch sipping on a pina colada while Mrs. V is on her knees cleaning the floors and meeting all my ENs . . . . for the past 2 months, this is our schedule: Mrs. V leaves to the hospital at 4-5am. I get up around 6-6:30am, get the kids ready, get them breakfast, drop them off at school, get to work late (yes, everyday) and get back home from work around 7-8pm. Mrs. V gets back shortly before me and we both eat dinner (whether Mrs. V makes it, we order in, or eat leftovers), watch a little TV and then Mrs. V is in bed by about 8:30-9:30pm. I'll then stay up studying and working until around 11:30pm-1am and then repeat the cycle all over again the next day. Typically, one day during the weekend, Mrs. V has the same schedule while I stay home and look after the kids. While we both have tried to arrange for a date night, it just never happens.

The Affair: Contrary to what seems like everyone's perception on this discussion forum, I have not used Mrs. V's affair as an excuse for my behavior or as the reason she must comply with my "demands" or "orders". I don't recall the last time we talked about her affair other than generally when discussing the state of our marriage. In fact, I don't know what "demands" I make of Mrs. V at all - I have not asked her to look after the kids, do any household chores, pay for anything or to meet my ENs. (I pay for all of Mrs. V's expenses other than the debt she incurs for her medical school tuition (including a nice car to drive to the hospital/medical school, a motorcycle for her own personal leisure, expensive shoes/boots, whatever clothes she wants, frequent dining out, etc.).) I have also hired a nanny (again, which I fully pay for) who looks after the kids after school and does a large portion of the household chores. I have also asked Mrs. V to forget the affair ever happened and to move on. We obviously are not spending enough time together, but I don't know what else I need to do differently to remove this guilt Mrs. V has.

MB Principles: I was quite surprised when Mrs. V said I wasn't interested in following the MB principles. I read the MB books first, introduced her to the books, bought marriage counseling sessions for her birthday and am fairly well-versed with the MB principles. Given the foregoing schedule, we BOTH are obviously not following all the MB principles (e.g., 15 hours of undivided attention a week is simply not happening). However, to state that I somehow don't believe in MB principles because of the current state of our marriage or to state that I'm somehow solely responsible for where we are in our marriage is not true. Mrs. V admitted that I never said I wasn't interested in following the MB principles and that this was a complete assumption on her part.

Marriage: Mrs. V mentioned that she thought I didn't believe that we're religiously married. I most certainly believe that we're religiously married. That being said, we have BOTH joked about us not being legally married. I don't recall doing this in recent months (Mrs. V doesn't either) but I know that BOTH of us joked about this before. I took it to always mean that we were joking about the legal state of our marriage - I've never said we were not married religiously and Mrs. V admitted to this. Also, we've joked about Mrs. V's affair and the state of our marriage in the past and never had any such misunderstandings. For example, a couple years ago, a celebrity chef (Michael Simon) who both Mrs. V and I think looks a lot like Mrs. V's affair partner was coming to our town. She emailed me information about the event suggesting that we should go. She clearly meant this as a joke - although I could have posted this fact on a forum and said she was taunting me about her affair, that would be factually inaccurate and I took no offense to her actions. In any case, I will stop joking about this. I have also made clear to Mrs. V that I believe that we are most certainly married religiously.

Ultimatum: Before Mrs. V's most recent set of postings on this forum, we only had two 30-second conversations (literally) regarding her pregnancy (or, for that matter, on any of the topics she raised in her most recent set of postings). These were not "heated" conversations where either of us were shouting or raising our tones. Neither were these conversations lengthy ones where we asked each other questions and flushed out each other's thoughts on the relevant issues. They were quick simple exchanges and Mrs. V never raised any of her concerns with me except for her religious concerns. I don't recall ever giving her an ultimatum re: me or the baby during those quick conversations. Offering such an ultimatum would be entirely inconsistent with my prior behavior and actions (and Mrs. V admitted to that as well). (In fact, the first time Mrs. V mentioned this "ultimatum," I corrected Mrs. V immediately - I never maintained a contrary position. Mrs. V's sister also told Mrs. V that she didn't think I would give such an ultimatum - such an ultimatum would be entirely inconsistent with my prior behavior and actions.) If such a serious (and uncharacteristic) ultimatum was given, I'm not sure why further clarification wasn't requested or why it didn't prompt further discussion. The only point of my statements during those quick conversations was that it didn't seem like our marriage could support another child. From the foregoing schedule I mentioned, I hope people understand why I was making the point I was.

"Mocking and Disparaging": I wasn't initially sure why Mrs. V thought I was "mocking or disparaging" her. When I asked her about this, she said that I responded to her religious concerns during one of the 30-second conversations regarding abortion with: "You're raising religion now?" (Mrs. V didn't identify any other instance where I was "mocking and disparaging" her.) I do recall stating this (and regret and apologize for stating it), but it was not meant to be mocking or disparaging; I was just truly puzzled by her raising religious concerns. Mrs. V violates several relatively serious religious laws on a frequent basis (e.g., performing physical exams on male patients) and it seemed odd that she was raising religion as a concern in this context. (I was not asking the question in the context of her violating religious principles during her affair.) She had also taken a morning after pill just a couple months ago without any hesitation. Given the disregard for religion in other contexts and her readiness to take the morning after pill, I wasn't quite sure what her religious objection was to an abortion (particularly because there are many religious scholars (in our religion of course) who clearly state that an abortion is permissible within the first 120 days since the religion believes a soul has not entered the fetus until the 120th day). I was not trying to mock or disparage her and she didn't say anything after I made my inadvertently "mocking and disparaging" statement - I took it to mean that she knew why I was puzzled. She certainly didn't seem offended by the statement. Regardless of how anyone interprets those words I used, it certainly was not a pattern of behavior - it was a one-time incident.

Divorce: The legal divorce we had soon after Mrs. V's affair was not something she granted me. Neither was it something I forced her to do. The divorce was a legal right I exercised - under the laws of our state, a spouse can get a divorce if the other spouse committed adultery. Mrs. V could not have unilaterally stopped the divorce. We also both had separate expensive attorneys representing us and she was fully aware of her rights. She knew exactly how much money we had and we did the equivalent of a 50/50 split on assets. With respect to alimony, we agreed that it didn't make sense for me to pay alimony since we were both professionals and she had (and still does have) a lucrative future ahead of her. I also made explicitly clear to her (and Mrs. V admitted this was true) that her signing the divorce settlement was not meant to mean that I was agreeing to go back in the relationship. Getting back in the relationship was a separate issue. As for the kids, we agreed that both of us were equally capable and good parents, and agreed that we would raise the kids together while I would keep them under my roof. This was because I didn't feel I should be denied having the kids in my house simply because she had an affair and caused the divorce. The legal term for this in our state is "joint" custody - we both have equal rights, but the kids just live in my house.

Medical School: Mrs. V suggested that she went back to medical school because of me and has since incurred $100,000 in student loans because of me. This is not factually accurate. Within the first 2 months of her going back to medical school, Mrs. V said that she was going back because of me and I corrected her and told her that she should make a decision herself and that she shouldn't do it for me. (And this wasn't a short 30-second conversation - Mrs. V clearly remembers this and understood what I was telling her.) Mrs. V could have decided not to continue with medical school but ultimately decided otherwise. This was a decision she independently made.

Mrs. V's Family: Mrs. V said I have an "intense" dislike for her family. She didn't recall posting that when I spoke with her. I don't know where she got that from. I invited her parents over our house last summer, spent this past Christmas break with them, took her grandmother out to an expensive steak house last year, bought expensive Christmas gifts for her other grandparents for the past couple years and spent a substantial amount of time visiting both sets of her grandparents this year. Also, when my sister-in-law and her husband came to town and stayed with us, we all went out to a dinner and a movie and had a great time. My sister-in-law also apologized for the way she treated me soon after D-Day. I'm still hurt by some of the things they did/said soon after D-Day, but I would never characterize that as an "intense" dislike. Mrs. V was surprised she said that in a posting and I think her family would be too. I honestly don't know where this came from.

MikeX Postings: This was not me. MikeX fessed up to Mrs. V immediately (well before I knew what was going on). Many of you don't believe me and that's fine. In case you're wondering why anyone would do what he did, note that MikeX has been intimately part of Mrs. V's and my relationship since college. Also, in college, he did something very similar (pretending to be someone he was not) and caught Mrs. V trying to cheat on me with an old friend. Mrs. V similarly used MikeX's identity online in college to communicate with me (obviously without me knowing about it at the time). Retrospectively speaking, was it all stupid? Yes. Will it happen again if I have any control over it? No.

Criticism of MB Forum: While I appreciate the immense support that everyone has been offering Mrs. V, I don't think it's appropriate to be providing marriage advice without hearing both sides of the story. I think the forum is a great place to provide emotional support for BSs and FWSs, but dispensing marriage advice is entirely a different matter. Neither anyone on the forum nor Steve Harley knew that Mrs. V had no substantive conversation with me regarding her concerns. They also didn't know of the factual inaccuracies in Mrs. V's postings. Your advice was on the verge of destroying a marriage when a simple conversation could have saved it (and, yes, your advice was on the verge of destroying this marriage). At the very least, please be careful before telling someone to get a divorce.

Thanks to everyone for your input in our marriage. I've learned a lot from this experience - particularly that I need to work on creating a better environment for Mrs. V to voice her concerns. That being said, I simply don't have the time to respond to all the back and forth on this forum. Mrs. V reviewed this posting to correct any factual inaccuracies and misstatements, but I welcome her to also post if she thinks she has anything else to add. In the meantime, I have kids to take care of, a demanding job and, more importantly, a marriage that needs my attention. I wish you all the very best.

For completion of both perspectives, and for some closure to this self-inflicted melodrama:

After DH and I talked honestly, I realized I was wrong on a number of accounts I worried about above. I can no longer let my guilt drive my actions regarding fear of speaking to DH about serious issues, not speaking up or lodging complaints, or making myself an inferior member of this relationship. None of those things have come from him - he has a strong need for open and honest conversation from me, he repeatedly encourages me to speak up and state if I disagree so we can both address something, and he has never once told me I am anything less than an equal partner in this marriage. All of those feelings were the product of my imagination.

I will not post on this thread for a while of my own accord. I need to spend time being O&H w/ my DH first, and not speculating and letting my negative thoughts get the best of me.

You know, pal... your wife wasn't here posting because your marriage is all daisies and lollipops.

You make a well-versed argument using courtroom poise, but it don't make you look like a betteer husband.


NEGLECT is DESTROYING (not "nearly destroying") your marriage.

There is no marriage. Aren't they divorced ?

Thank you very much Mr. V for your side and perspective.

Have you two thought about doing the online?

Mrs. V if your DH communicates this clear all the time with you, why do you have such a different story? Does he communicate this clear most the time?

Indeed, with assets and custody already decided. It's a full on renter's agreement.

Being MR and MRS V clearly do not have money issues.

Neither one is having a happy relationship.

That they can afford the cost and have the money to phone session with the Harley's.

I smell a passive aggressive husband controling his WW with his Lt Commander Spock logic.

No Mr. V is perfectly well too busy to give his wife the time of day. He is happy to have 30 second conversations with her because their current schedule is working out just dandy. Clearly he has his priorities worked out. Mrs V. is left to speculate because Mr. V had made it clear that he's waaaaaaaay too busy to entertain her cnversations... Mrs. V-'s overactive imagination is a direct result of MR. V knowing exactly what is needed in their marriage at this point and spending time with his wife is certainly not permissible.
Well Mr. And Mrs. V. I wish you all the luck in the world. You're going to need it.

Interesting. I'm trying to think of a reason not to take Mr V's statements at face value (other than the MikeX thing, which is I admit a bit tough to swallow). I mean, why would I believe Mrs V more than Mr V?

Mrs V is not a child. She made (bad) choices in a situation created from her own (bad) choices. She also seems to have deep issues with shame and a very unhealthy fear of confrontation. Mrs V, I urge you to interact with your husband as an equal. You can't save your marriage without it.

I was thinking the same thing, but I did have a problem with his complaint that someone suggested divorce to her, yet they are divorced already. Another thing that hits me as off is his apparent attitude of the divorce he did get, that he exercised his right and the divorce wasn't given to him and yet he didn't force his wife to get divorced. A lot of the rest of it comes across as him allowing his children's nanny to live in his house with his children.

Mrs. V's husband, you said that the divorce was a separate issue from the relationship issue, but when it comes to something as intertwined as a man and woman living together, forging a life together, is it? What is a religious marriage? Is it defined by taking extraordinary care, one of another? Is it commitment to one another as well as the children? Would you be willing to counsel with Dr. Harley in order to improve your marriage? There is one thing that comes out clear here and that's that at least Mrs. V is in a very unhappy state and appears to not see a way to a better present and future. You may feel the same way, but we haven't heard much from you except on your wife's thread.

In the terms of service, it is made clear that the posters here are not licensed psychologists acting as such. Maybe the suggestion of the coaching services or online course is a good one for you two. You yourself stand to gain a lot and end up with something way more fulfilling to you than what you have now.

Vplanifolia, I would agree with Dr Harley that your husband is an abuser. He has used your affair to manipulate you for years. The problem is that you permit him to abuse and gaslight you. You are a huge part of the problem. Keep in mind that this is the view of objective outsiders who have no emotional investment in your situation. Your relationship with your husband is very sick and unhealthy.

I am surprised he is still lying about being MikeX. We all know that was your husband.

Sadly, it is not hard for me to believe that Mrs V is the SOLE problem here. I do not see Mr. V as an abuser. My ex pulled this sort of stuff with me and it was all in his head. Same shoe, different foot.

My two cents.

*********

That and the whole we are married, divorced, husband, exH, wife, exW...

Keep it simple...there is no marriage.

"Sadly, it is not hard for me to believe that Mrs V is the SOLE problem here. I do not see Mr. V as an abuser. My ex pulled this sort of stuff with me and it was all in his head. Same shoe, different foot. "

I just don't see any evidence that MrsV is the problem, other than the fact that she allows her H to gaslight her. Dr Harley had the exact same reaction as me and I think we have pretty good instincts. If there were evidence that she is the sole problem, we would see it. It we don't.

I think I have pretty good insticts too, Mel. If Mrs V isn't the sole problem, then she is 98.2575% of it IMO. The whole Mike vs Mr V thing...well nothing surprises me these days. There are plenty of weird people that people call friends. Is Mr V lying? Could be. From Mrs V's words I think she can't let go of her "marriage" and is hanging on at all costs.

And what you highlighted is exactly the results of correctly applied tactics of gaslighting and emotional abuse.

She came on here to try to set the record straight by self-effacement, or to make up a term, self-erasement, in order to appease.

V_, it's up to you, right now, to make your decision as to whether you want to live this way the rest of your life, because this shows something you need to understand: this is the best you are going to get if you keep playing his games with him.

MelodyLane hit it just right quite a while ago: "Welcome to the rest of your life."

June 2011 - Mrs V wrote:

"Not really posting much of an update, as things are still the same re: "recovery." H just discussed w/ me the other day how he still sees us going our separate ways as the best option for both of us, eventually.

I admit I was hoping that he might be more on the fence about that kind of decision, though ultimately I'm not surprised at all that he still feels that way."

How is Mr V emotionally abusing and gaslighting Mrs V? He told her this ^^^ over a year and half ago. Should a BS lie about their feelings and/or give a FWW false hope of recovery? I don't get how Mr V has become the villian here.

V got caught "being a bad girl."


Her MAY-UN straightened her out, then came here to straighten out us herrrrrrrrrrr trouble makers.


Mrs. V was to come along and see her MAY-UN show her how trouble makers are dealt with.

She was also expected to do her "good little wifey" bit; posture small, eyes low, voice quiet... no eye contact... say that she was wrong and her MAY-UN was right.


Yeah. I remember seeing "little wifey" when I worked in the grocery store...

Well, I will put mine and Dr Harleys up against yours any day. Sorry, but I just will. Like I said, I don't see any evidence here that she is the "sole" problem. I do agree she is hanging onto a dead marriage but he is gaslighting her by continually giving her false hope.

And mrV is MikeX. That is obvious.

Partly it's because if he's really done with her, he wouldn't be "keeping" her. He would have made his statements clear rather than going along with religiously married, but legally divorced. I would think if he wanted to go different ways, he would have reiterated that. It appears that he holds all the aces already.

Doesn't matter, though, the fact remains that this is the best V_ is going to get. The question for her to answer for herself is "can I, will I continue this way?" I think she answered "yes."

HHH, your description of Mrs V does not jive with this:

"That's not all. It got out of control so quickly, and I had so many issues that compounded it. I actively pursued this OM, I had control problems, I didn't want to admit it was casual sex for this guy (or that it could even be just that for me). I emotionally disconnected from my husband and son, knew what I was doing was hurtful and jeopardizing everything we had but couldn't "feel" emotionally any real impact. I didn't want affection from my husband, I felt like being independent (not even like being w/ this OM, just independent), I couldn't understand who I had become."

Next we will hear how OM was a predator who took advantage of the little wifey with the mean old BH.

Mrs V, if you are lurking, I want you to know that I don't mean to pick on you. A lot of your thread is missing due to the 2009 forum implosion...anyway...I wish you well and hope to see you return to the Forum.

x3

Blackraven, if he is "done with her" then why is she still there? He hasn't asked her to leave. Where has he ever asked her to leave? Oh no, rather he is using her guilt to keep her there taking care of his kids and giving him sex with nothing in return. He talks alot of crap about being "religiously" married even though he divorced her. As hard as I try I can't see the angle you see.

And I am not even going to debate the MikeX thing; that is just too ridiculous for consideration.

That sounds to me like it was an admission of PAST behavior that she has changed. You can't use that against her if she has repented and changed her ways. Heck, I could pull out similar admissions from every wayward on this forum. But what would be the point unless they never repented?

Is there a reason why you are doing this?

That's just hyperbole.


This is 5 years post affair here. And in her guilt, she has allowed her husband to cow her down.

Her husbands post was a play-by-play of how he used disrespect and anger to berate her into submission, and now she has to get away because the forum "almost destroyed their 'marriage.'"


That is not an MB recovery. It's not even recovery.


Instead, it has become a case where to protect himself from the abuse of infidelity, he has become abusive.


I did that, too. That's WHY I came here. Because I couldn't stand what the pain and anger of betrayal led me to become, and I needed a path back.


I took that responsibility.


And you know what's funny?


When I was still having episodes of allowing myself to be angry, Mrs. V and WPG would always post to me with a "there, there..."


Why?


Because their husbands did it, too.


I stopped.


Their husbands have not.

Bingo! Dr Harley calls this "secondary gain;" a way to perpetually punish someone to get what one wants. This woman is YEARS past her affair and has fully repented. That is ABUSE pure and simple. I don't know many people who would tolerate being punished for their crimes years after they repented.

I never said Mr V was done with her. They agreed to continue living in the marital home as a couple despite the divorce. They both talk about being "religiously" married...which I think is silly for both of them.

I simply don't agree that Mr V is an abuser even if he is Mike...which doesn't automatically make everything else he says a lie or exaggeration...even if it is a stupid stunt.

I do believe that Mrs V is repentant. However, I still question her mindset and pattern of behavior. Me bringing up that post was only to show that she was not some mousey, submissive wife like HHH's post made it sound.

Doing what? I don't agree that Mr V's response or acts show him as an abuser. He responded with clear and direct answers and pointed out what he has issue reconciling in his mind yet somehow he ends up being labeled as an abuser.

And I do question the oops of her recent pregnancy among other things.

I didn't see disrespect and anger in his post...or berating.


Agreed


I'm not sure what you mean by this example. Mr V is not doing what broken did IMO.

I would advise you to carefully read his subject-by-subject testimony.


It is largely a documentation of straightening us - and his wife - out.


In fact - the man owes this forum no explanation. As a gesture, it appears shady and manipulatives - as it does when any other spouse in any other section of the forum does something similar.


If the man was serious about recovering his marriage at all, he would be doing it, not wasting time explaining to anonymous strangers on the internet why his wife is all wrong.


That show was not for us. It was a token act with the motive of subjigation.

It was the behavior of an abuser.


"Nothing to see here guys, she's not right in the head. I'll handle it."

I read it three times, HHH and I still disagree with you.

You brought up a description of her behavior that was YEARS AGO. There is no evidence that she is wayward today. The reason her husband is labeled as an abuser is because he is an abuser. He abuses his wife by continually punishing her for her affair.

Dr Harley called him an abuser. And he is a psychologist. You don't help anyone by coming here and defending an abuser. You just embolden him.

The fact that you label his behavior as "clear and direct" and the fact that you believe his lie about his "friend" posting as MikeX tell me that you don't have good instincts about all this. Its obvious to most people, including Dr Harley, that he is an abuser. I think some people have the ability to discern when someone is gaslighting them and others don't.

And that is the problem. You don't have the instincts for this and can't see what others can see.

She can't see it, HHH.

For clarification; the "little wifey" example was in reference to her post immediately following his. It was directly in reference to current behavior.

What I sense, by her intermittent forum appearances/disappearances, is that her MAY-UN sure don't like us much, and she gets herself in trouble airing their laundry here.

First, it was the Mike-X fiasco, and now this.


We may or may not see her for months, a year... and if/when she reappears, the marriage will be in the same state.

He obviously monitors, and if us trouble-makers try to mess with her head again, there will be hell to pay.

Others have said the same as me, yet I have bad instincts. I am not going to argue and am a bit surprised by all this but okey dokey.

I am downright shocked that anyone could honestly not see what is so obvious. Like I said earlier, I think some have a knack for this and others just don't. Keep in mind that even Dr Harley called this man an abuser. A husband who perpetually punishes his wife for years after an affair is an abuser. Period.

Blackraven, it takes 2 years to recover from an affair and they are no closer 5 years later than they were back in 2008. MrsV has been fully willing all this time. So what is your explanation for why they have no marriage? They have nothing other than her being a live in nanny who puts out on demand.

Why no recovery? What is your explanation since she has been willing all along?

This is one of the things I look at here.


So, in the current session of activity, when V was going to write the radio show... I thought "Why?"


Why think why?


Because, as Dr. Harley has stated, and has been repeated on this forum over, and over, and over again; "If the marriage is not better than it ever was, even before the affair, it is best that the spouses move separate/divorce."


This is 5 years later. At this point, it doesn't really matter who is "at fault." The chances of having other than a crippled, broken marriage are immensely slim, even less so than "just" recovering from infidelity.


I won't say "impossible," but it's pretty damn near. The marital situation is less than a renter's agreement, and the marital habits are HORRIBLE. Add to that a manipulative BH who is "satisfied" with his easy out, and not too keen on it being interrupted by meddlers... it's a horrible situation.


BR, I don't mean to be part of a gang-up on you. And it doesn't even really matter to me that others agree with me. If Mel disagreed, I'd being fighting her about it tooth-and-nail and moderated all over the place.


Those two posts just felt wrong in the pit of my gut.


I'm sorry for whatever Mr. V has to deal with as a victim of betrayal... but this ain't the way to deal with it.

*cough* better after 2 years *cough*

I forgot that part.

And this is the bottom line. If there is no marriage after 2 years, it is better to cut it loose and move on. There is nothing here to save. Guilt and blame does not a marriage make.

ok. i know i'm just a newbie here, 14 months on the boards, just under a year in real recovery. and i'm a people pleaser and hate sticking my nose into a place where it may be cut off. but...

i first saw this thread yesterday. i have now read the entire thing, including the mikex thread.

i have seen some things on here that have made my mouth drop open and curled my hair - more than once!

but a 5 year long thread, where the OP hasn't EVER READ lovebusters???? in a M where lovebusting is the most common behaviour? where they counselled with the harleys? where they both have posted as having "read all the books" and being "fully versed in MB principles?" (to say nothing of the contradictory references to both "going to medical school" and "being a SAHM.")

and writes a last-chance desperate-attempt letter to the harleys in a terrible crisis of not just love, or faith, but humanity, yet didn't listen to her own show? despite the fact that it replays for 24 hours? (quick poll: how many posters don't have the mb app on their phones/devices?)

how many people here have been desperate enough to write the radio show, and then didn't wait with bated breath until it finally aired?

BH, can you link it for us? i'd definitely like to hear it, if it exists, which, frankly, (and i'm sorry) i doubt.

i see that BR refers to the 2009 debacle, where apparently SOME of the postings on this thread disappeared into the ether (but not all the posts on this thread prior to the 2009 oopsie...). so i understand that i haven't read any posts that may have discussed implementing MB, or any of the day to day frustrations that come with making a lifestyle change that incorporates MB, etc. but this is the vaguest thread i have ever read. except for the big-ticket items. those were *very* specific.

i am very interested in hearing the show, as i do not recall this letter. i don't listen every day, so that means nothing. did anyone else hear it?

No worries, HHH. However, I am not interested in "fighting" anyone.

Given that this thread started four yrs ago and I was away from MB when the whole Mike/Mr V thing went down, I went back and re-read this thread to refresh my memory. Well now I'm just going to come right out and call this whole thread a bunch of bull [censored].

Mr V - "We also both had separate expensive attorneys representing us and she was fully aware of her rights. "

Attorneys were in the picture yet both parties were clueless that they couldn't or likely wouldn't get a divorce while she was pregnant (and the pregnancy wasn't even mentioned in the initial post...that's kinda an important detail to casually throw out later)??? I don't buy it.

The IP address is the same because...drumroll...

Don't feed the trolls.

Here it is.
Radio Clip of Mrs. V's Question

See what happens when you gave up your old hobbie?

You better pick that pistol back up and start whipping.

I admit that I am usually unaware of when trolling is happening on threads versus when real thoughts and problems are being discussed. This, however, doesn't seem to be trolling to me, so I still approach it as real.

I, too, was scratching my head that it seemed I was waiting for Dr. Harley's answer with more anticipation than V_, but realized afterwards she talked with her husband at the time she submitted it. I might be wrong and this woman needs antipsychotics, but I think she was "nudged" to pay no attention to the answer because it was now moot. It was moot because he denied saying that he wanted her to get an abortion. You see, the answer is inappropriate because husband tells her she misunderstood what he was _really_ saying.

The bonding that occurs between a person using abusive tactics and the person who receives them is a difficult thing to understand or believe, but it is definitely real. The thought patterns and natural instinct for self preservation seem to become rewired to a self defeating thought pattern. It appears to me that the on again, off again of V_'s board appearance is the part of the struggle we see of the isolation tactic not working all the time.

However, V_ is the one who needs to decide if enough is enough and realize that what she stands to lose by "consummating" the divorce is less than what she has to lose by staying in her current situation. She's the one that needs to decide if her emotional reactions should be paid attention. There is really no more we can tell her. She has all she needs between the articles and Q&A's, this thread, and Dr. Harley's answer on the radio to decide her path.

I am also confused about the custody status of the children. V has said it is sole for him. He says it is joint.

ETA: Never mind. I gather the divorce settlement says that they will live with him. His wording was a bit dense.

Again, they are not married.
It is a renter relationship.

But she could have misunderstood. And I don't know if this is a trollfest or not...and let's say it is not (I will gladly eat my words too)...there are A LOT of things in this story that are long before Mr V/Mike showed up. A big chunk of this thread is missing but I know I posted to the OP during that time but it is not there to refer back to. Anyway...there is no marriage to save. They aren't married.

If exFWW wants to hang onto a relationship with Plan Hope then that's on her. If they both agree to living in this arrangement...so be it. I still question the carelessness of Mrs V and the things she has said that make me go hmmmmmmm. **shrugs**

This is exactly right. She "misunderstands" everything because, as an abuser, it doesn't matter what Dr Harley says because her husband defines her reality. That is why she "disappears" for years from this forum. He doesn't want her around us because we redefine her reality, making it harder for him to maintain his live in nanny and bed partner.


Exactly. She is an adult woman. She is not a victim. If she wants to stay with an abuser, then she is a volunteer. Like I said earlier, however, she really needs to find a good female counselor who will help her with her disconnect with reality.

And they are not trolls. That is crazy.

There is another FWW on this board whose story tracked so closely to this one (sans the pre-emptive divorce complication) that I would expect the denouement will be precisely the same. The comes a time when one's past offenses cannot dominate the current situation, and the landscape of today must be judged as it is, not how it was formed.

"Hit me again, I deserve it!" cannot be the response to fresh abuses.

I admit that I am probably the last person on this board qualified to post to this thread, given my own situation...but reading these latest developments has helped me look at my own failed marriage and current "arrangement" with a new perspective.

Maybe I'm going out on a limb here...I have a box of books I was going to get rid of - basically my entire collection of books purchased while desperately seeking for a "magic cure" to recover not only broken and my marriage but myself. This morning I pulled one out of the box, titled, "From Shame to Grace: Healing the Shame We Don't Deserve."

The author defines shame as a persistent feeling "that we are not acceptable, maybe unworthy, and are less than the good person we are supposed to be...Shame is not necessarily a bad thing to feel...It can...be a warning that we are becoming the kind of person we do not really want to be. But shame is often an unhealthy feeling of unworth that is distorted, exaggerated, and utterly out of touch with reality." My apologies if posting excerpts from this book is inappropriate.

From Chapter 3, Leading Candidates for Shame:

From Chapter 7 - Social Shame: The Pain of Rejection:

Now, if we're talking about an unrepentant wayward, then shame is deserved - it would be the type of shame that Smedes refers to as "healthy shame," alerting us that we are becoming the kind of person we don't want to be. I think - and yes, I am projecting here - that what both V and I feel is shame of the unhealthy variety. (everybody says, "Duh," right???)

The bigger problem is not the state of the marriage (or non-marriage, as it were). The bigger problem is what V and I see when we look at ourselves in the mirror; the way we feel about ourselves when we lay down to sleep at night and cry silent tears because we feel that we can only blame ourselves for ruining what was once, if not perfect, then at least decent...that if we only hadn't committed adultery, maybe we could have "fixed" our marriages.

What it comes down to, perhaps, is for us to accept what Pep has said so eloquently:


Hope has paralyzed both of us for far too long. I think both of us can see that, at least at times - but taking the next step...well, it is scary. Like stepping-off-the-edge-of-a-cliff scary. It's giving up on our hopes for a better yesterday...and giving up our hopes for a better future with our husbands. Realizing - no, internalizing - that we broke something that can never be repaired. Becoming a part-time parent. Losing a materially comfortable lifestyle.

Obviously I am ill-qualified to advise V. But I worry about her.

Divorced and posting on the "IN RECOVERY" forum seems dishonest to me. Massively self deceptive at the very least.

I have been trying to think of ways to appropriately apply IN RECOVERY MB advice to a divorced couple where one of the spouses hijacks the forum ID of the other.

I simply surrender and humbly admit my inability to offer proper MB advice in this situation. A situation where I am not ever certain that the most basic elemental facts are truthfully offered for us to work with.

It's a head-scratcher for me.

I guess, my most honest advice would be to PAY FOR marriage builders coaching.

Of all the things that V's husband has done, I must say I find the fake posting handle to be the most mickey mouse.

I listened to the show. Dr H makes the abuser comment at the very end, almost as an aside, and it is in response to a query about insisting upon - and "mocking and disparaging" V's objection to - getting an abortion.

Having read Mr V's response, and V's own prevarication, I am no longer certain that letter (which I helped draft) reflected the reality of the situation.

Knowing Dr Harley, the comment was in response to his insistence that she kill her child. THAT is about as sick, evil and abusive as it gets. Mocking and disparaging her is a fart in the wind compared to that.

He could only do that if he were in your house, though. We all know that MikeX is your husband, MrsV. It is so sad to see your disconnect with reality over this issue. Are you really so far gone mentally that you would allow yourself to believe something you know is not true? Or is this an act to protect your husbands pride?

This is why I suggested getting a counselor who can help you with reality testing. Your reality is being altered by a masterful gaslighter. But, you allow it, so he can't be blamed. By going along with his manipulations, you embolden him. You reward him for being a con-artist. Here is a guy who is so manipulative that he almost had you convinced to kill your own flesh and blood in order to stay with him and continue to offer your services as a live-in nanny and concubine.

Of course he would hate Marriage Builders. That is the biggest threat to his little set up. But, you are a grown woman and not a child who has the ability to choose to stay and be abused.

Which "religion" believes in shacking up? I can't think of any that don't believe that two single people shacking up is not a sin. You divorced her, remember?

And what "religion" believes in fornicating with an unmarried woman?

That would not result in the same IP address showing up. The same IP comes from using any computer in the same location.

The radio show where Dr Harley reads MrsV's email about the abortion and just compensation:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=4613#

Go to the 5 minute mark in the clip.

"What is just compensation?

**edit** writes she confessed to her husband about the having an affair, and she granted him a divorce she and primary custody of the children. She is now pregnant and her husband wants her to abort the child."

Dr Bill Harley in radio clip in response to MrsV's email:

"Just compensation has to do with restoring the marriage. The idea that she should give up her marriage and give up her children is not what I meant by JC. And I certainly don't mean to get an abortion! JC is not punishment. It is a compensation for the affair that isn't going to hurt you.

What she did was not just compensation and I would have never advised

She should get an attorney if he is unwilling to restore the marriage. She should get an attorney and get joint custody and financial support.

He is an abuser. She needs to get out of there."

Another point, MrsV, is that just compensation is intended for the purpose of recovery of your marriage. Your H is not interested in any such recovery, though. He is only interested in keeping a live-in babysitter and concubine.

Yup posted it already here in her thread.

Where? I spent about an hour looking for it and could not find it.

Page 35 2nd from the top after Blackraven's response. After Letty asked to have it posted.

Can you give me the time of the post? I show only 14 pages of this thread.

ok, found it! I searched back through your posts.

(t/j alert)

We veterans should standardize our "posts per page" settings,
to facilitate referencing prior communications. BH obviously
has hers set to "10", ML to "25", and myself to "50".

(end t/j)

50 huh??

That's funny, mine is set to 99 posts per page...... so I'm on page 4
Drives SMB crazy

ok, I asked my good friend, SusieQ to transcribe the radio clip and here it is:

JOYCE HARLEY: Well, MRSV writes us, and she has questions regarding just compensation.

She gives us the background.

She said: "I confessed to my husband I had an affair.

Throughout the last five years, I have felt incredibly guilty and that has driven decisions that I regret now.

An example is I granted my husband a divorce with primary custody of our children and no alimony for me."

That's where her guilt is coming in.

She is saying, I deserve nothing.

I don't even deserve you, so yes, I will divorce you.

You don't have to give me alimony and you can have the children, I don't deserve them because of what I did.

"We continue to live together and are still considered married in our religion, but I am not sure my divorced husband considers himself married to me.

Now I am unexpectedly pregnant.

He wants me to terminate the pregnancy; I do not.

He mocks me and disparages my feelings about this.

My divorced husband is not interested in Marriage Builders at this time.

Part of me feels like me having an abortion is just compensation as would leaving him if that's what would ease his resentment and give him some happiness.

However, doing those things would break up the family.

Questions: What qualifies just compensation?

What does not?

Does just compensation have a time limit?

Do you have any advice what I should be doing to recover this marriage given the current situation?"

DR. HARLEY: Well, the just compensation that I recommend has to do with restoring the marriage.

The idea that she should give up custody of the children, that she should give up alimony as just compensation isn't something that I have ever recommended.

So for me, that's not　-- when I talk about just compensation, that's not what -- I'm certainly not talking about an abortion.

JOYCE HARLEY: It looks like she looks at it like punishment for what she has done.

DR. HARLEY: For me, just compensation is not a punishment.

In other words, for you to　-- for you to put the effort and energy into restoring your marriage after you have had an affair isn't a punishment.

What it is, it is a compensation for the affair that isn't going to hurt you.

So what she did, she may consider it just compensation because of the guilt that she felt.

But I wouldn't have ever advised her to do that

JOYCE HARLEY: It was very extreme.

DR. HARLEY: Yes.

I would say that in this particular case, she should get an attorney, figure out what they are going to do if he is unwilling to restore their marriage.

That is a big if.

In other words, if he says I am unwilling to recreate a love relationship, then I would say she needs to see an attorney and get the joint custody and get financial support, whatever the law would allow.

JOYCE HARLEY: Get back into the life of her children.

If he mocks her and disparages her and wants her to abort, to me, he is not interested in this marriage, in this relationship.

DR. HARLEY: Well, he is an abuser and that's something -- she needs to get out of there.

JOYCE HARLEY: Yeah, I would totally agree.

Well, we have more to talk about on today's Marriage Builders radio.

About how MrsV "misremembers" everything and some "friend" named MikeX snuck in their house and posted to MrsV's thread :

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.[1] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim. here

MikeX is a classic gaslighter.

as even *broadband* internet is very slow in nz, i keep my pages set to 50 posts per to allay the frustration over page loading time. now that i know 99 is an option...naw. probably keep set at 50. it's an even number!

i wonder if mrsv will ever get back? or will another year go by? i certainly hope -- and mrsv, if you are reading this, please listen -- that she gets a lawyer and reestablishes custody. she divorced under duress, and they have cohabited ever since. i know laws differ from state to state, but what states allow for a divorce when the two are having a sexual relationship? in some states (like CA), one sexual "hook up" between the two null the divorce proceedings, as it's considered evidence of reconciliation.

mrsv also has to consider her work situation with three small children (need for spousal support). although she is close to finishing med school, she will have to consider an internship next. even if her hospital has a creche, she will likely need a nanny. or she may consider allowing bh primary custody until her training is finished, but she needs to know all of her options so she realises she has them and can make informed decisions.

that said, i'm sorry, i believe this is the work of one person. not even two. just one. in which case, she needs far more help than any of us can offer. but - should i be wrong, and there is a mrsv who is really living in this unusual sitch, i hope that for her children's sake she finds the strength to do what needs to be done. i cannot imagine how awful it is for her small children to live in this home. and what they are learning from their parents' relationship.

I agree: living together as a physically intimate couple after a divorce probably changes the settlement she can get at this time. It appears to me that the divorce they do have is more like a written promise of what V_ will settle to if she ever decides to leave and feels obligated no matter what to keep that promise. A post-nup, if you will.

One of my concerns has been how far from town does she need to go to get a lawyer to truly represent her? Her husband is a lawyer (corporate) himself IIRC. Him saying they both had expensive lawyers representing them didn't impress me for how much did his wife's lawyer really lean towards him? Did she truly choose her lawyer or was he/she suggested to her? His latest post didn't help change my mind about what I see here; it actually reinforced it.

V_, now is the time that you need to be able to think as rationally and non-emotionally as you can. Find trusted help and counseling and start talking to them. Why do I say this? Because now is the time for you to decide- you truly can't put it off any longer. If you wait until your children are gone, you will probably not be able to think for yourself at all by then. Also, I think your husband has been clear that he will completely and summarily dump you at that time. Because of that, why in the world would he be all in now or be interested in investing in a fulfilling relationship now? It's now not about what you can do to help him onboard, he has made his decision that no matter what you do, he will not be a partner with you. Repeat, he is not and will not ever be your partner because he has decided so.

Lots of speculation happening here.

Fact: People can choose to get divorced and maintain any sort of relationship with each other that they wish.

Fact: Mrs V is highly educated, privileged even. She is studying to be a doctor, for God's sake.

It will be tough to convince a court that she acted under duress or that the divorce was unconscionable.

Also, the idea that, simply because Mr V is a lawyer Mrs V could not get adequate independent legal advice that would stand up in court is...unlikely in the extreme.