Marriage Builders
Posted By: ElunaInNC New Thread... New Place? - 06/28/10 04:56 PM
Ok I have technically been in recovery since April, but I have been hesitant to move over here. So here is my story.

March 24th: I tell husband we need to talk. He had been distant and depressed for a while. I told him this first thing in the morning before work. That evening he came home to talk to me. He told me that he had been talking to OW about his depression and that they were good friends. Something did not sit well with me about this. I told him that I felt that they maybe to close and that it was super easy to fall into an EA (did not know he was in a PA already with OW.) After trying to talk for maybe an hour I had this intense feeling of needing to pack a bag for DS and I and leave. I tried to ignore that for over an hour and then I finally gave in. I went upstairs and packed a bag.

WH came upstairs and got really upset when he saw that bag. I told him I needed to get away from the situation for a couple of days, and he suggested that he leave instead. Gut told me not to let him, so we calmed down, talked and went to get dinner.

March 25th,

About 12pm WH calls me in tears asking me to set up an appt for him with our old MC. I told him ok and was able to make an appt for him at 3pm that day. Unbeknown to me, while I was making the appt, WH called OW and ended the A.

3:04pm OW FB status changes from in Relationship to Single

5pm I get home. Acting on gut instinct I hack WH's email and find conversations between him and OW confirming the A. I immediately call and confront WH about the A (did not know about MB, and was too angry to control urges at that point) Received the "I love you but am not in love with you" speech to which I tell him that he is full of S&#$ and not being honest. Meanwhile WH is texting OW that I know about the A. I remove and block OW from WH's FB account. I immediately print copies of conversations and then remove his computers from our house.

about 6pm WH comes home. WH's mom calls to discuss DS. I put her on speaker and in front of WH tell her that I just found out he had been having an A.

Call friend to take DS for a few hours. Go out with WH to discuss situation. Have his cell phone put under my name and texting disabled. Tell him that it is either me or her. He tells me he has already ended things with her, so I ask him to sign a contract that he will never have contact with her again. Begrudgingly he does so. He tells me that seeing the packed bag the night before hit him harder than he expected.

That evening, nightmares and hysterical bonding.WH confesses that he had intended to buy me a new wedding band for my b-day (1 week previous to D-Day)but did not know size.

March 26th: expose to several friends and family before going to work. WH comes by and takes me to lunch. Lunch ends up being a mall trip that included new wedding band and butterfly necklace.

March 27th: I wake up early and send email to OW from WH's email account entitled "Thinking of You". I tell her in detail about hysterical bond. And include photo of necklace right beside giant hickey. Tell her if she has contact with WH again I will take legal or other action against her (can sue AP in my state.)

Onwards: WH and I are working towards recovery. There has been no contact with OW since D-day, other than the NC letter that was sent in May.

WH has become very transparent and placed several extreme EP's in place to insure this does not happen again. Including exposing the A to his boss (she does not work with his) and changing his work number so she can not have contact. OW has now moved on to another victim, and I am monitoring that in case she does start looking WH's way again.

We are working on EN's and trying to reconnect. WH's seems to feel like he has reconnected with me. I on the other hand am still having some issues.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/28/10 04:58 PM
Wow sorry that was long. Anyway here is a sample of the issues I seem to be experiencing.

got an email from WS new friend. She seemed to misunderstand WS's request (he requested no information on OW) and seemed to be informing him that should she hear something for POSOW she would let him know what was up.

WS ended up replying to her email that he did not want to know anything about POSOW. That he had ended and affair with her in March and now wanted nothing to do with her. That he and I are trying to work to fix the problems in our marriage.

I think he is showing a lot of accountability by reacting like that.


Me on the other hand, I am still having days I just want to walk away. We tried to SF last night, but I kept seeing images of POSOW and WS in my mind. Every time we would get close to enjoying ourselves, I would have those images pop into my mind. After the third round I finally gave up and settled on snuggling with WS.


I explained that I was having unpleasant images (not what the images were of) and that it was interfering in the mood. I explained that I am having trouble right now, because even though I see that he is doing everything I have asked (and then some) to mae things better, I need to feel like the only woman in his heart. And at this point, I just don't feel that.

Is it that we don't have enough UA time? Is that why I am still having so much trouble? Lately when we do have some UA time, either I fall asleep and/or we end up watching TV. I understand that is not they way to make things better. What can we do to bond, that will not involve leaving the house (typically UA time is after DS is put in bed so leaving the house is not really an option atm.)


Any other suggestions? Please help.
Posted By: YEG Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/29/10 07:17 PM
Quote
Is it that we don't have enough UA time? Is that why I am still having so much trouble? Lately when we do have some UA time, either I fall asleep and/or we end up watching TV. I understand that is not they way to make things better. What can we do to bond, that will not involve leaving the house (typically UA time is after DS is put in bed so leaving the house is not really an option atm.

Is there any way you can take a vacation? Can someone watch your son for you? Maybe a week long cruise can help? Just a massive UA session to kick off things.

BTW long posts dont bother me and I kinda dont like it when people complain. If they dont wanna read it dont read it. Lots of background is helpful IMO.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/29/10 07:51 PM
Next week will be easier since DS is staying with grandparents out of state during that week.

Hoping WH and I get to try out our new bikes then.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/07/10 02:23 PM
Getting frustrated!

Whenever I try to talk to WH about anything involving feelings, I tend to get 1-4 word answers. When we talk about anything else, loads of information.


I know WH is not comfortable discussing feelings, but I feel like I am pulling teeth to get any information. I am so frustrated that at times I feel like I want to throw in the towel.

I told him about how frustrated I am. I tried to explain it to him like this......


If I was to look at him and just say the word "grass" and leave the conversation. That word provides very little information, other than subject. There is no context in which to view the word. Whereas if I said "The grass is looking a little yellow today" there would be more information.



Please help! How do I get him to communicate without having to pull teeth? How can I get him more comfortable talking about this stuff?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/07/10 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
got an email from WS new friend. She seemed to misunderstand WS's request (he requested no information on OW) and seemed to be informing him that should she hear something for POSOW she would let him know what was up.
Eluna, welcome to the recovery board smile

What are your H's EPs? Are they written? Can you copy them here?

The first one should be: #1 No female friends, period.

This is very alarming to me that he has a female friend, that they are discussing marital problems (the A) and that they email each other.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/07/10 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
got an email from WS new friend. She seemed to misunderstand WS's request (he requested no information on OW) and seemed to be informing him that should she hear something for POSOW she would let him know what was up.
Eluna, welcome to the recovery board smile

What are your H's EPs? Are they written? Can you copy them here?

The first one should be: #1 No female friends, period.

This is very alarming to me that he has a female friend, that they are discussing marital problems (the A) and that they email each other.

While I would normally agree with you on this, this particular friend will not be an issues since she would be more interested in me than in my H.

As far as EP's

No porn or strip clubs
Access to all email and phone
No computers without accountability software
Joint FB only, his account has been deleted (this is where the friend is being emailed from so I can see everything)
Lunch with me at least once per week
Google talking while we are at work
GPS tracking anytime he leaves work or when he runs any errands
He told his boss about the A
He had his phone # changed
OW's emails are forwarded directly into the trash should she email him (not happened, but still established, with a copy sent to my email so I would know)
SMS is blocked on his email
Texting is disabled
He does not talk to any female friend w/o me present (I was present each time he sent emails to his FB friend)
Phone and IPOD have parental blocks where I have control
Extra email addresses have been deleted as well
Anytime he leaves his desk he is suppose to let me know via G-talk
25 hours UA time each week
All person's I view as even a minor threat have been cut off as friends (Even had him send NC letters to 2 strippers he was friends with)


And has not been created yet, but has been verbally agreed to........

Post nupt: saying should he ever cheat again, I will automatically receive 70% of his annual salary, primary custody of our children, and any new woman would not be allowed to have contact with kids until they are married.
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/07/10 11:05 PM
Thats a great post nup, is that actually legally binding? I wanted to have something like that but I was not sure a judge would agree to it if it ever had to be put to use.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/07/10 11:12 PM
That is why I need to go talk to a lawyer. If it is written right a post nup can be as binding as a pre-nup, however most times they are easy to get out of since they are not written correctly.

Will a judge let me do it? No idea, but that is what I am requesting. H has verbally agreed to those terms. Now I have to see what I can get in writing.
Posted By: rightherewaiting Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/08/10 04:01 PM
Eluna, not knowing you'd started this thread, I posted a reply to you yesterday on your other thread in SAA. Hope it's of some help to you.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/11/10 01:57 AM
Right,

I copied part of your post to WH. Specifically the part dealing with why he chose me over her..

He said to let you know you got a gold star and you are right, it was so simple he would never have been able to put it into words.


So the past few days WH and I have had alot of UA time since DS has been with the grandparents. I have discovered that when he and I actually sit down and talk (R talk mostly) that I end up feeling closer and more content.

I have this insane need to try to understand, and although I recognize that I will never understand the way I want to, it is helping me recognize some of the other problems that have been hiding.

I am still getting frustrated though. WH has always had a hard time talking about feelings, the conversations get very frustrating because I will make a comment and expect a response. My response will come 2-10 minutes later. It pisses me off waiting in silence for him to answer a question or respond to a comment. It feels like he is refining his answer to make it the way he thinks I want to hear. (hope that makes sense)

I want him to just blurt out what he is feeling or thinking. To me that is more honest than having to think it completely through before making a sound.

The other thing that is bothering me is that WH keeps blaming the A on his depression. I finally got fed up with that commentary this evening. I asked him how many times he has seen me get depressed over the years, and how many times that depression has lead me to cheat on him. I told him that he chose to cheat on me, that his depression was a symptom of his internal conflict because he knew what he was doing was wrong. I have not heard anything else about it, so waiting on that commentary too.

Ok time to get off the computer for a while.
Posted By: rightherewaiting Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/11/10 07:10 PM
I'm glad there was something useful for you, Eluna. And for your H too.

I think what you've got there is a good man who did something incredibly stupid (and selfish), but who very much regrets it and wants to make a better marriage with you.

But he will have a struggle learning to be more communicative, and more openly honest. He's afraid to say too much, because the next thing he says may be the thing that makes you throw in the towel.

Why do I say that? Because so much of what you said in your last post could have been written about my FWH, who is an introvert, one who processes things inside his head, and then (being conflict avoidant as well) MAYBE shares the conclusions he draws.

We are four years past D-Day, and we still struggle with that very issue. Makes me crazy (as an extrovert, NON-conflict-avoiding. I have learned, a bit, though, how to let go and not try to force responses/reactions from him. Get less dependent on what he does in that regard. Know that he is for real, and trying to develop that new skill.

Patience, Eluna. Patience and faith.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/13/10 07:39 PM
I am having another down day. I realized today that I have spent sooo much time over the past months fixating on the A that I have not grieved for the loss I have suffered.

I am so angry inside. How could anyone walk into someone else's marriage and try to destroy it. ESP when there is a young child involved.

On top of all this I have now opened the flood gates for all the negative emotions I had put on the back burner and not dealt with. Not been trying to intentionally avoid them, just easier to keep dealing with the constant NEW problems.

In MC yesterday I realized that I still blame myself for the trauma my DS went through at birth (he was in special care for 5 days due to low O2). I realized that I blame myself, because I made the decisions that may have lead to his issues. (his low O2 was from underdeveloped lungs and swallowing too much amniotic fluid during delivery)

So why do I blame myself for that? I made the decision to be induced at 41 weeks (had the option to wait a few more days) and I opted for narcotics instead of an eipdural up to 4 hours before he was born, then went ahead with the epi. I have felt guilt over this for almost 2 years.

Now I have to wonder if my avoidance of dealing with those feelings lead to my postpartum which eventually lead WH to think I did not want him and contributed to the decision to have an A?

At the same time I am dealing with this, I feel like I want to yell and scream at WH. I have only done that twice since I found out and both times involved alcohol which I am currently avoiding due to ADs.

I know the A happened due to his boundary issues, but how can any person that is a parent decide to try to break up someone else's family. How can a mother (even a crappy one) try to take a parent away from a child? Sometimes I don't know if I am more POed about the A or about the fact that POSOW's tried to destroy my family and by doing so would have scarred my child for the rest of his life...
Posted By: rightherewaiting Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/13/10 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
I am having another down day. I realized today that I have spent sooo much time over the past months fixating on the A that I have not grieved for the loss I have suffered.

I'm sorry you're having a bad day. They happen, and it doesn't mean you're doing anything "wrong." It's a rollercoaster, remember. It DOES slow down, in time, and the dips aren't as dizzying and they come less frequently. It's still so early for you. You're really doing well, but you can't see it yet. Time, Eluna.

I hope your son suffered no permanent damage. Please don't beat yourself up over your decisions. Remind yourself, over and over, that you made the best decisions you could with the information you had at the time. It's all anyone could do.

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
I know the A happened due to his boundary issues, but how can any person that is a parent decide to try to break up someone else's family. How can a mother (even a crappy one) try to take a parent away from a child? Sometimes I don't know if I am more POed about the A or about the fact that POSOW's tried to destroy my family and by doing so would have scarred my child for the rest of his life...

The answer to this question, "How can any person that is a parent decide to try to break up someone else's family?" is easy: SELFISHNESS.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/15/10 01:50 PM
Trying to understand how someone can be so cruel to a child as to take a parent from that child, I talked to WH about what I was feeling. I realized that for right now I am more upset about XOW trying to break up my family and take WH from my son.

I feel so helpless because I did not see it coming. I failed to protect my son from that scenario, and that is hurting me right now more than anything.

WH told me that I did not fail to protect DS, that it was his failure. That he failed to protect DS, me, and himself and that is why we are all suffering now.

Yes it was his failure to create true boundaries that lead here, but my failure was in not recognizing the danger before it was too late. I am not sure when I will be able to let that go. I feel so much guilt over what almost happened to my son. I can not even think about it without breaking out in tears.

So we changed subjects and started talking about one of the threads in SAA, and how I recognized emotional abuse in that situation. He asked me if this was because of how one of our ex-friends had treated me (I met WH through ex-friend whom I was dating at the time, after breaking up with ex-friend, I started seeing WH)

WH then proceeded to tell me how ex-friend treated me and other girls at the time, the comments he made about me, ect. WH said ex-friend got really POed at him because I ended up liking WH better as a friend. WH then continued to tell me why ex-friend was a jerk. After watching this for a little while I finally ask WH why he is acting like he is in competition with the ghost of a guy I dated over 12 years ago and have not seen or heard from in that time.

He tells me that he is not in competition, so I point out what lead me to believe he was acting like that. I showed him how his is trying to elevate himself in the situation and how he is trying to de-value ex-friend. I asked him why he was doing that. After 1/2 an hour of trying to keep WH focused on the question, I finally tell him that I have a suspicion why he is acting this way.

Ex-friend was the first "love of my life" and he was an A@@h@le! When WH and I first got together I regularly threw ex-friend into his face. However after one big fight, WH pointed out to me that I was doing this and asked me not to. Since then I have not. Even after D-day when I was so upset, I chose not to even mention ex-friend.

I told WH is seem like he feels the need to compete with ex-friend's ghost because he is still scared that I am going to run off with him. I pointed out that I have not had contact with this guy in over a decade and when I have searched for him on things like FB, it was to block him. That I married WH not ex-friend. That when ex-friend did propose I turned him down flat. I love my husband including his flaws, not ex-friend. That he has nothing to worry about where ex-friend is involved, he is an ex for a reason.

Maybe WH will start to trust that I am in love with him. That I am here with him. Maybe one day he will be able to talk to me. I was wrong to throw my ex in his face. I have grown up and moved past that behavior, I just hope he can.

Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/16/10 03:44 PM
I have been unable to fulfill WHs need for SF over the past week. At first I thought it was because I was exhausted from the depression, but yesterday I found out that I have a UTI. So now even though I am starting to feel better, I need to be even more cautious since the anti-biotics could interfere with my BC pills.

I so do not want to get pregnant right now!


On the other hand I am super worried that WH will resent me not being able to fulfill his needs. He says he understands because I am sick, but I am fearful anyway.

Am I the only one who worries when they can not fulfill SF needs? How do you deal with the fear that they may try to get that need taken care of somewhere else while you can not take care of it? We are not even 4 months past D-day. Should I worry at this point?
Posted By: rightherewaiting Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/16/10 04:07 PM
From what you've said so far, I don't think your H is foggy at all, or likely to turn on a dime back into an affair.

Sounds like you need a reminder that there are many avenues to sexual enjoyment that do not involve actual intercourse... I have to ask, though, might you not have thought to do those "other" things because you just don't feel like being sexual these days?

Think about this question, although it might be difficult to consider. Answer it honestly for yourself. No matter what you conclude, have the appropriate, open and honest discussion with your husband.
Posted By: armymama Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/16/10 04:45 PM
I agree that your H does not sound foggy and it does not seem likely he would return to the A.

Dr. Harley writes about the 4 intimate emotional needs - typically recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment for men and conversation and affection for women. Are you spending a minimum of 15 hours a week in meeting these needs? For us, it makes a huge difference to both of us. We start to feel bad if we don't get the hours together meeting these 4 needs. Dr. Harley also talks about the interaction of these needs. I'm paraphrasing and hope I get this right. I think the point is for most people that if a wife's need for affection or conversation is not met, she will not be keen on having sex.

And the other huge point is to NOT talk about the affair. Dr. Harley lists it as an enemy of good conversation to be reminded of past mistakes. It withdraws love units and generally makes both people feel bad. This has been SO hard for me to do. And it is very obvious when I slip that there is a negative impact on the relationship.

So bottom line from me is 1) spend time together meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs and 2) avoid talking about the A.

AM
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/19/10 01:04 PM
Well since I have started feeling better, we have gone back to fulfilling ENs.
I am trying to avoid talking about the A, and instead trying to focus on the dynamic between us. We talked this weekend about his impression of when he first met me, the realities of when we first dated, basically trying to remember why we fell in love to start with.

Conversations are becoming easier. Someone posted on another thread about a tip they had read to just wait when talking with a guy. That if you push, then they will have no reason to talk. So to sit patiently until they answer the question.

I tried this, and it actually work. H got a little bothered by the silence, and told me that the look on my face made him uncomfortable. I explained that my facial look had to do with me fighting my urges to push him to talk, and that I was trying to patiently wait for him to answer the question. After that he stopped stalling and started talking.

I did have an AO over the weekend, but not about the A. I was washing dishes and H asked a question from the living room. I replied back, but apparently he had not heard me so he repeated the question.

My biggest pet peeve is having to constantly repeat myself, so I snapped at him. After I calmed down, I apologized. We sat down and discussed the circumstances that would lead to me snapping at him (apparently I have done this too much over the past years.)

For him growing up, someone snapping at you was a get the hello outta here because I am so furious with you. In my growing up, snapping was the only way my mother took five seconds to hear what I was saying. I explained that I felt the need to snap at someone when I got frustrated from feeling ignored. And in this circumstance I was frustrated previously because I felt like everyone was yelling for my attention: H, DS, and all 3 of our cats.

Sunday was better because we got a few hours to ourselves, so we went to the movies for a date.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/19/10 01:15 PM
Ok here is a question we have come up against.

H wants me to start back making jewelry. I was doing this previous to D-day, and this was my creative outlet. I had been becoming fairly successful at it, and enjoyed it alot.

But H claimed that the time I spent promoting my jewelry lead him to resent me and set up some of the justification for the A. I admit I was spending a lot of time in cyberspace promoting the business, but at the time I was also looking for shortcuts because I wanted to spend more time with H.

H said he did not realize everything it was taking for me to create and promote the business and although he still resents it to a point, he wants me to start back.

I have shut down my store, and have only picked up my tools to create 3 times since D-day. I told him that from what I read, it was not advisable for me to continue since the hobby was taking away from the M.

On the other hand, he sees it as something super important to who I am. So we are now at a crossroads. I agree with him that there is a part of me that does not want to give it up, I want him more involved.

I feel like I am stuck. I do resent giving up the hobby, but my M is much more important to me. He absolutely does not want me to stop. The jewelry making falls in "ME" time. It was always my quiet reflective time.

Vets, how do I handle this? What is the best idea of a solution here?
Posted By: rightherewaiting Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/21/10 12:40 AM
You resent giving it up, and he resents the time that quiet reflective "me" time. Can you see how giving it up or doing it the old way would ultimately cause problems again? The sacrificing one of you would have to do, I mean.

Could you brainstorm on what it would TAKE for him not to resent that time, and/or what it would take for YOU to not resent giving it up?

One idea: work on your jewelry AND chat with H at the same time? You'd be giving up some of the private time he resents while filling your need to work on it.

Or, is there something he could enjoy doing in close proximity to where you're working?

What about getting him more involved in the marketing? Could he be working on that in cyberspace near you while you're making the jewelry? Conversing back and forth about it while you both work different aspects of it?

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Now YOU TWO start brainstorming!
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/21/10 02:12 PM
Rightthere,

We have decided to POJA.

Since this was a pressing issue for us (I wanted him to understand why I was trying to give it up, and he did not want me to stop) I ended up writing a thread on SAA. We had a lot of feedback, and WH even got online to post his point of view. The main consensus was to find a way without either of us sacrificing.

He does not resent the creation time, he resented the marketing time. So we are currently defining the boundaries on this issue. Hopefully soon we can sit down and make a plan on this. I told him I refuse to start anything new until we do that.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/22/10 08:24 PM
Not much new to update. H and I have been planning DS's 2nd b-day party that is coming up in 2 weeks.

We have also been planning a getaway for my b-day next year. Since he was involved with POSOW on my b-day, even took DS to see her on that day, I know it will not be a good day for me. So instead of waiting for it to happen, we have decided to do a preemptive strike and plan to be out of town for my b-day next year.

H wants to take me to Disney since that is someplace I want to go but never have. Failing to be able to fund that trip, we are looking at a get-a-way in the mountains. That is where we went for our "RECOVERY" vacation, and we had alot of fun. So I don't think that would be a bad idea either.

I am working on identifying triggers and dealing with triggers. Although I am still having issues not checking up on POSOW to make sure she is out of our lives. I do know that the intensity has lessened. The feeling is still there, but it is not all encompassing.

Anyone have any ideas for removing her car as a trigger? Many times when I see a red sedan I want to go ballistic. I am trying to move past, but there is still a big part of me that wants to lash out at her.

Will it help my M. No.

But I feel so helpless. I am so sick of the fact she gets to go on with her life like nothing happened, but I have to pick up the pieces and try to glue them back together.

I am also angry because I feel like I failed to protect my son. I did not see this threat, and his father almost left because it. I did not see H as the A type. He was always that sweet guy who actually gave a #$#@ about his family. So I was completely blindsided by this. I shouldn't have been. But I was. So now I feel loads of guilt for not seeing the signs.




Posted By: rightherewaiting Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/23/10 05:31 PM
Eluna,

Glad that you are taking a pre-emptive strike at the trigger of your birthday. My D-Day was the day after my birthday (and 3 days before our anniversary), so I know the pain of those trigger dates.

Good on you, too, for fighting the urge to check up on OW. Giving her room in your head is painful to you, and detrimental to recovery. I'll be the first to admit it's very hard to let go of the anger and the fear associated with that one miserable human being, but the truth is, if it hadn't been her, it would've been someone else. When a spouse doesn't have boundaries, and builds up unvoiced resentment and entitlement, it's inevitable that something bad is gonna happen. She just happened to be there when your H let himself get to that place.

As for the ever-present trigger of OW's car...that's a really tough one, and it took me many moons to find something that helped me. I turned it around and finally realized one day that SHE was suffering the same
trigger effect of seeing my FWH's car, or MINE. (She was "in love" with him, and when he broke it off, I was lucky enough to see her one day--at Christmas time! She looked as ragged and miserable as I did after D-Day. I took great satisfaction in knowing SHE hurt too--although it could never equal the depths of my pain of being betrayed after 37 years of M.) So take heart that she is probably paying, at least a bit, for her folly.

And remember, as painful as it is to "pick up the pieces," at least you HAVE the pieces to pick up! She has nothing. Certainly not the man she set her sights on. Vow to live well with your reformed H, in a more conscious M than you had before. Isn't living well the best revenge?

And stop beating yourself up for not seeing your H's affair coming!!! Do you think ANY of us saw it coming? We were ALL sucker-punched and sent reeling. It wasn't our fault! Who is a mind reader? Who anticipates their beloved will destroy them? NOBODY! Wouldn't have married them if we could've seen that coming. We mourn our naivete. A part of really growing up, I think. Painful, but necessary for us to do, under the circumstances, don't you think?

RHW
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/26/10 01:03 PM
I have spent alot of time over the past few months being angry because I could not lash out at POSOW for the pain she has caused in my life. I have consistently been told that the Karma bus will eventually catch up with her, but in my anger I have not been able to focus on that. Instead I have focused on the fact she moved on (to my relief, and dismay since that means she is not suffering.) As much as I have wanted to walk away, I have found it hard to do so, and have at times given in on the need to make sure she is staying away from my husband.

I have been almost jealous of the fact that she has started a new relationship since the NC letter on the 29th of May. Then I figured out last week that POSOW's new victim has moved in with her. And I also saw a reference joking about getting preggers that she posted on FB to her new victim.

Although I have suffered knowing this information, until recently I could not see how Karma may bite her, and felt like I had to wait and watch to ensure it would happen.


While I was watching "The Ugly Truth" this weekend with H, something dawned on me.....

In less than 2 months of dating this guy, POSOW has had him move in with her and is now pressing the idea of pregnancy with him. This is the same MO that husband had described of her behavior with him, pushing things WAY too fast. So why does this make a difference?

I realized that this is the type of behavior that 99% of the population view as desperate. That eventually she will drive off every partner she has with this desperation, because no one really finds that behavior attractive. We have even discussed on the forums about how that behavior can suffocate a partner into fleeing during plan A.

So now that I can clearly see Karma at work, setting her up for one epic fail after another, for the first time since D-day I feel a sense of calm and justice. I finally feel like I can let go of that part that needs revenge on her, something I have fought against for months. I can finally see the path of justice and can leave it to the Universe.

I finally feel like I can breath.

Thanks for listening.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/29/10 02:11 PM
Back in May I asked WH to write me a letter explaining the things he loves/admires/likes about me.

I asked this for several reasons. (This was before the NC letter was sent, although there had been no contact between POSOW and WH at that time.)
1. To remind him of the things he loves about me.
2. To give me an anti-trigger
3. To give me something tangible to hold onto during the dark days
4. To show me that he really sees me and not the FOG persona he thought I was

WH had started working on this, but never got around to finishing it. I know he had started because during my snooping I ran across a rough draft. Once I realized what it was I stopped reading hoping he would soon finish it and send it to me.

Over the past few days I have asked him why he loves me. I have been having more dark days (I can almost pin point when in the month I will start feeling this way now)

He got upset with me because I ask the same question again and again.

I told him that for me the trauma is still fresh in my heart and mind. And that many times that pain clouds my thoughts so when I am feeling suffocated by the pain, I ask. I am looking for something to counteract the pain at that point.

Then I explained that was one of the reasons I asked for the letter early on, so I would have something to look back on during the rough times.

He said that he understands and plans to work on it now during his lunch period today.

I am hoping he will, but deep inside I feel like I am going to be disappointed again. Part of me just wants to give up the thought of this letter, but I realize that would amount to me settling for crumbs so I can't.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/01/10 01:56 AM
Like most couples with toddlers, we struggle to achieve the UA time needed. I must say last night however we got basically 6 hours of UA time. However it was not the "FUN" UA time we all need.

My H had a kidney stone attack last night. So I ended up finding someone to look after DS while I took H to the ER. We essentially sat in the ER waiting area for almost 6 straight hours with no sleep. Finally got a diagnoses (yes kidney stones) about 6 am this morning.

I know that the act of me staying with him waiting in the ER did some major deposits. But I could not help wondering, what things would have looked like for him had he left us for POSOW in
March.

This thought made me angry. Part of me was angry at the thought of him suffering alone. But part of me was a little resentful that I was fulfilling my role as his wife, being there when he needed me. But I was doing this for a man that did not have enough consideration for me to let me know that he was feeling neglected in our M.

I gave up my sleep, sent my DS to stay away from home, spent hours worrying over my H, drove him to the ER and stayed with him all night, plus had to endure 3 re-playings of "College Road Trip" (they had this playing on the TV in the waiting room).

Would POSOW had done the same? Would she have drug her son to the ER in the middle of the night because my H was having a kidney stone that would pass? Would she have given up her nice warm bed to spend the entire night in a waiting room, just to go home and have DS keep her up all morning without sleep?

I asked him what he thought things would have looked like now had he left us back in March. He said he imagines he would have been in the ER waiting by himself.

This is the type of OW he chose to meet his needs on the side? After having these type of thoughts, I finally said, for the first time outloud, that the A really hurt me. I need things to get better, but have little doubt it will get harder before it gets better. I have never resented staying at the ER with him before (this was not his first kidney stone), but now I do. It is an uncomfortable feeling for me.


Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/02/10 01:19 PM
Well this weekend was pretty much a complete bust for any fun UA time.

We tried to recover Saturday from the overnight trip to the hospital. Hard to do when you have a 2 year old that is roaring to go and has no real concept of Mom and Dad need sleep.

On top of trying to recover, now DS has gotten sick with a head cold. So of course both of us decided to look after DS's needs.

I realized this morning though, that am starting to feel withdrawn from WH again. I understand that this is probably a result of having no US time over the weekend. But I still feel very anxious over this.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/04/10 12:41 PM
I feel like I am talking to myself a bit this week.

DS has come down with a very nasty cold, bad enough that I had to take him to the DR yesterday for an emergency albuterol treatment. They sent home a nebulizer and a script for more albuterol.

Since I have been so concerned with DS health, he has been sleeping in our room so I can monitor his breathing. This has of course affected any one on one time that WH and I get. So now I am feeling withdrawn.

I been having some conversations with WH that have left me abit off kilter. Last night he reminded me that he has an eye appointment this afternoon. I asked if he was planning on going back to work after the appt. He said no. This left me panicking, because my first thought was of the time he spent off work and would go see OW.

He assured me that he is coming home right after the appt. I asked him how I was suppose to know that. At this point he seemed to start getting upset that I will not take his word. But he did say he would leave the GPS on his phone hooked up so I could monitor his location.

I guess what bothers me is that WH seems to be expecting me to start taking his word already. We have not even begun to work on the trust issues. I am not even close to being able to take him at his word. I told him I wish he could stand in my shoes and understand the pain and uncertainty I felt. That each time he changed something in our normal routine, it throws me for a giant panic attack.

What steps are needed in recovery before you were able to begin taking WS at their word? How long into recovery before one should begin to look at trusting (although not completely) again?
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/05/10 02:00 PM
Ok still talking to myself I guess.

I told WH last night that I have no idea how to rebuild our friendship, but we both realized that we need to be friends before we can really go on.

I told him that I don't even know what we have in common any more and that I am completely lost on how to rebuild. I also told him that I had felt resentful on Friday night. I let him read the post above dealing with my resentment so that he may understand my thought process. I still don't know if he got it.

Is he following EPs? Yes
ENs: I think he is trying, but I have a hard time admitting my needs since I am the type to try to take care of everyone else before I worry about myself.

WH and I had planned to sit down with "5 steps to Romantic Love" on Friday night, but then the hospital trip happened. Now I am in a rush to get everything finished for tomorrow: DS's 2nd birthday.


How do you rebuild when you see nothing in common anymore?

Posted By: rightherewaiting Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/05/10 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
Is he following EPs? Yes
ENs: I think he is trying, but I have a hard time admitting my needs since I am the type to try to take care of everyone else before I worry about myself.

Um, Eluna, can you see where you're causing some of your own problem here? How can your H meet your needs if you're so busy taking care of everyone else that you haven't focused on figuring out what they ARE? Or worse, not being HONEST about what those needs are?

What will have attending to everyone's else's needs, or not being honest with your H about what your needs are, benefit you if your marriage falls apart? Think about this: Is it possible that "tending to everyone else's needs" and not telling each other what you needed played a role in making your M vulnerable to an affair?


Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
How do you rebuild when you see nothing in common anymore?

The trick here is to do the examination of ENs and LBs--both of you, get cracking on meeting the ENs and eliminating all LBs and spend that all-important 15 hours a week meeting the four most intimate needs...Affection, Conversation, Recreational Companionship and Sexual Fulfillment.

Guaranteed, you'll become more than friends.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/09/10 03:56 PM
DS's b-day party went off well. We all enjoyed ourselves, and both WH and I got alot of joy out of watching our little boy experience turning two and being the center of attention.

A couple of problems that are arising (again)....

I am tending to get online whenever I feel like WH is ignoring me. He is getting upset with me because he feels like I am spending too much time online. So I get offline, and end up falling asleep on WH. Only to wake up with him playing video games online......

This is a vicious circle. I realize the best thing to do is to put the laptop away when we get home. However, I am afraid to do this because I fear that WH will be upset that I have "taken away" his video games.

And yes I have tried leaving it put up when I get home. Only to find him online as soon as I nap. Grrr......

The other thing that has arisen this weekend is that WH is upset because I have NO trust in him. Well Duh!

He seems to expect that I should begin trusting him now, since everything is settling down. I explained it to him this way.....

He is currently in conflict with bio-dad. I told him that my loss of trust with him equates to the earth shattering feeling he would have if he took a DNA test only to find out the man he had been told was his bio-dad really was not.

I told him that everything I had thought, believed, and cherished about our M, had been completely shattered in one quick and thoughtless action. That rebuilding trust after something like that was not a quick process. That there is a good chance I will never trust him again, and that is one of the consequences of his decisions.

Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/09/10 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
I am tending to get online whenever I feel like WH is ignoring me.

Ditto for me in reverse. I tend to frequent this board only when I'm not feeling as close to FWW as I would like to be. Bored, frustrated, tired, needing to vent... these are all typically aspects of not spending enough UA time together.

Quote
I realize the best thing to do is to put the laptop away when we get home. However, I am afraid to do this because I fear that WH will be upset that I have "taken away" his video games.

The solution: Follow Dr. Harley's advice and SCHEDULE your Undivided Attention time. The TV is off... unless the two of you are using the noise to disguise your lovemaking from your kids. You must have a bare minimum of 15 hours per week, more like 20+ hours per week if you're recovering from an affair. This time is to be spent meeting the four Intimate Emotional Needs:
1. Intimate Conversation
2. Affection
3. Recreational Companionship
4. Sexual Fulfillment

Two hours a night every night, with a longer time on weekends, is typically what it requires. Our time is 8:30 to 10:30 every night, and when we skimp on that, our Love Bank balances fall. Just being married to one another and being around one another is going to result in constant small Love Bank withdrawals. Fill those up every day with a steady stream of UA time.

Quote
The other thing that has arisen this weekend is that WH is upset because I have NO trust in him. Well Duh!

My explanation is something like this:

"You have a Trust Bank balance in my heart separate from your Love Bank balance. I can be in a state of Intimacy with you, love you dearly, and desperately want to make you happy, yet still distrust you. Like a Love Bank balance, it's impossible for me to make deposits into your Trust Bank balance. You are completely in control of how much I trust you. Trust will only come as you steadily, daily do things to cause me to trust you, and avoid doing things that cause me to distrust you. When your actions are consistent with your words, you make a deposit. When they are inconsistent, you make a withdrawal. Make enough deposits long enough and my trust in you will grow. However, my trust will never be blind again. I will verify from time to time that your actions are consistent with your words; when I find that they are consistent, you'll have made a Trust Bank deposit without even knowing it!"

Quote
I told him that everything I had thought, believed, and cherished about our M, had been completely shattered...

Your final two paragraphs are DJ's. Avoid this sort of analogy. Rather than trying to explain why you're hurt, or why you can't trust, explain what you need to ease the hurt and to rebuild trust. Have a relentless focus on discussing solutions you're enthusiastic about, and pointedly avoiding Love Busters of this sort. I'm certain you made him feel horrible by telling him this, and that withdraws Love Units. Refrain from this, and instead focus on what you'd rather he do instead.

Dr. Harley has an entire chapter in "Love Busters" devoted to eliminating Annoying Habits like FWS playing computer games every time you're not looking. You'll need his buy-in to stop it together, but I'm certain you can succeed by following the process Dr. Harley outlines for breaking Annoying Habits together. Be a team, though, and remember you're trying to fix this together; it's not you vs. your spouse!
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/11/10 12:42 PM
I have finally begun to see why I am stuck at this point in recovery. I have the same questions rolling around in my head that I have had for over 2 months now. Up until this week, I have not understood why I have been unable to move past these questions.

During MC this week, I decided to detach a bit a just listen to WH as he described the events of the past few weeks. What I realized is that WH is still in "I" mode. He spent 20 minutes talking about his job and how the current events at his work are affecting him. I realized over the past 3 weeks, we have spent 90% of our UA time dealing with his job.

After realizing this, and recognizing we need to get back on track in trying to heal our M, I started going back over the questions in my head with WH. His response was "I have already answered those questions and I don't want to deal with them anymore."

So I now understand that part of the reason I am stuck is that WH is still focusing on his desires, instead of working to heal our M. The reason I do not feel safe, is because I have been sensing that I am still in the background where WH's thoughts are concerned.

I pointed all of this out to WH yesterday. And he has admitted that he has been obsessing over his job and bringing that home with him. He also realized yesterday that he is still being selfish and putting himself before helping me recover from the A. He seems to indicate that this is not what he wants to do. He asked what it will take for me to start feeling safe again, and I told him it is going to take a complete overhaul of the way he prioritizes and thinks about our family.
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/11/10 01:31 PM
I think I have been stuck in a similar place as your husband from time to time. The way my wife helps me remember to separate work from home is by saying, "I'd love it if you'd give some clear signal when you're done with work work for the day, and if your work problems stayed at work." She had to repeat it a few times, in context, on different days, for my brain to register what it was she was gently asking by that statement: that I indicate to her when I was done working for the day, and not get upset by work problems when at home.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/17/10 03:05 PM
I have not written in a while,so I will update you on what has been happening.

Last week I called to check up on one of our friends (WH and I) and see how he was doing. While I was on the phone with him, I sensed something that did not feel quite right. I even think he asked me to call him again soon.

When I got home from work, I immediately sat WH down and told him about the conversation and what I was sensing (Possibly asking to be more than friends. This friend is the one I confided in when I found out about WH's A and was looking for a guys POV on the subject. WH knew and approved of me talking to him about the A and its effects on me. We had actually POJAed this at the time)

Anyway I explained to WH that what I was feeling could be nothing more than me being hypersensitive to everything, but regardless it was something he should know about. Thus far we have not decided on a course of action to determine if "friend" was asking for an EA or not....... Either way I will not call or contact friend again without WH there with me.

On other notes, I finally figured out why I felt the need to know why WH chose me over OW. Every time I had asked in the past, he told me what OW had done that made her look bad. It finally dawned on me that was what was bothering me. When I pointed it out to him, he immediately saw what was bothering me and began to tell me why he chose me.....

And the final update...
I realized last night that I am finally getting to the point that I want to walk away from some of the anger I have been carrying around. I contacted our pastor last night and asked him how God views those people that confess their sins, ask for forgiveness, but are not really sorry for their actions. I have been afraid that OW would ask for forgiveness and receive it even though she may not truly be sorry for the damage she helped to inflict.

So maybe this is another step in my path to heal.
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/17/10 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
I finally figured out why I felt the need to know why WH chose me over OW. Every time I had asked in the past, he told me what OW had done that made her look bad. It finally dawned on me that was what was bothering me. When I pointed it out to him, he immediately saw what was bothering me and began to tell me why he chose me.....

That's an interesting take. I'd kind of glossed over it in my mind, but I recall now that when I've asked my wife why she chose me, it was mostly about what the OM had done that made him undesirable. There was some about how I was her husband and he wasn't, how I was the father of her children, and how she loved me and wanted to be with me... but it felt more like she returned to me out of a sense of duty.

Then again, it's fear that ends the affair. Whatever other reasons the wayward gives to justify it, under the hood, it's always fear of something.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/17/10 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Doormat_No_More
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
I finally figured out why I felt the need to know why WH chose me over OW. Every time I had asked in the past, he told me what OW had done that made her look bad. It finally dawned on me that was what was bothering me. When I pointed it out to him, he immediately saw what was bothering me and began to tell me why he chose me.....

That's an interesting take. I'd kind of glossed over it in my mind, but I recall now that when I've asked my wife why she chose me, it was mostly about what the OM had done that made him undesirable. There was some about how I was her husband and he wasn't, how I was the father of her children, and how she loved me and wanted to be with me... but it felt more like she returned to me out of a sense of duty.

Then again, it's fear that ends the affair. Whatever other reasons the wayward gives to justify it, under the hood, it's always fear of something.

That is exactly it, it felt more like he was telling me he chose me because I was there, not because he actually wanted me. This had been holding me back because I felt like if he chose me because she was undesirable, then he did not really choose me so much as the better circumstance. If that was the case, what would really be there to stop him from choosing another circumstance later on.

That was sitting in my subconscious bugging me. I just wish I had been able to bring it to the surface sooner....
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/24/10 08:08 PM
I know a lot of the feeling I am having today has to do with hormonal overload, but I have the same questions running through my head. I just wish I could get an answer that would satisfy the why factor of my brain.

I told WH that I wanted to ask, I wanted to get answers, but I did not want to cause him to be upset by asking the same question.

The questions I want to ask are:

"How can you say you love me, when you did not care enough for me to let me know there was a real problem in our M, before you decided to "fix" it with an A?"


I know I am very angry and resentful. I also realize I am making progress, given the fact that 3 months ago at this hormonal stage I wanted to go make POSOW PAY for trying to break up my M.

Someone please tell me it will get better. That eventually the maddening questions will stop and I will be able to move on. Please help me today.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/24/10 10:06 PM
I am sitting here in tears atm. I realized (again) on the way home that my WH is not the first to cheat on me.

So that makes me wonder what it is about me that makes me unworthy of fidelity and faithfulness?
Posted By: gg615 Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/25/10 12:17 AM
Eluna,
I've read your thread. My impression is you are carrying around so much guilt around your neck it's starting to choke you. And you have this expectation that people are supposed to be perfect (including yourself) and not make mistakes. That is an awfully high bar to set for yourself and everyone around you. You are not perfect, you can't handle everything yourself and your WH and DS will make bad decisions in life. Yes, I know - you WH made a bad decision and OW should pay too. My FWH made a bad decision - it took two years to recover my M. Here's the difference between you and I. I didn't not care about OW. I did not want to give her any power over me or my M. By you checking her FB you are giving her power over you. Your WH needs to work on his EP - that is what helps you feel more secure.

Quote
So that makes me wonder what it is about me that makes me unworthy of fidelity and faithfulness? twoxfour pityparty


You're going to go through different phases while in recovery. But remaining in "guilt" mode won't help you get to next phase. I went through something with my daughter's medical condition and I carried alot of guilt. I read something Christopher Reed wrote - something to effect of "bad things happen to good people - that's life."

Gg

Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/26/10 08:21 PM
Since I had been feeling isolated lately, I spoke with WH about it. I explained that while I enjoyed him spending time with DS, that we had reverted back to allowing DS to have most of our time. That I needed the 15+ hours of UA time.

So we agreed to get DS back on his bedtime schedule.

Earlier in the week WH and I discussed graitude. He was disappointed that he was helping around the house more and I would only seem to notice in passing. I tried to explain to him that domestic support was not one of my big ENs and that while I appreciated his efforts it did not give me a great big warm and fuzzy to say thank you.

So I took another approach. I asked him what he would be more appreciative of: me washing the dishes, or giving him oral......
He seemed to understand then.

But that got me to thinking that maybe I should revisit the EN questionnaire.

So yesterday I took some time and filled it out again from top to bottom. I also asked WH to do the same. After DS went to bed last night we stayed up talking and comparing answers.

I figured out that I was missing the conversation (my #2). He thought it was getting filled simply because we discuss mundane everyday things. He did not realize that conversation was where my safe intimacy comes in. So maybe each of us having the others EN questionnaire will help.

Oh and my hormones have finally calmed down so now I can kinda think straight (without pity parties) again. You would think that since I have been dealing with those drastic thought changes every month since I was 11, I would have figured out a way around it by now. But so far, I have only learned to recognize when I am in a hormone fog frown
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 09/10/10 08:35 PM
I am still out here and still alive. H and I are still working through our issues.

We have been attending church lately. I think this has helped me because it is creating a new support system for me as well as a new place for H and I to rebuild our M.

I have been praying alot lately to learn and understand how to forgive H for the A. The result is that last Sunday I spent half the service in tears and the last half of the service felling jubilant. So maybe I am on my way to learning to forgive.

The one thing I have currently asked H for is that I wish he was a bit more possessive of me. I know that sounds a little crazy, but he never seems to worry that I may fall. I don't like that feeling right now. While yes it is good that he trusts me, it also makes me feel taken for granted.

anyway back to like and reality.
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: Recovery take 1 - 09/14/10 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
The one thing I have currently asked H for is that I wish he was a bit more possessive of me. I know that sounds a little crazy, but he never seems to worry that I may fall. I don't like that feeling right now. While yes it is good that he trusts me, it also makes me feel taken for granted.

I know what you mean, Eluna. We are very similar. Have you read my story? It's linked to my sig line below. The success stories down there are helpful, too.

(((((((((((((((((((Eluna))))))))))))))))))))

Ace
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 09/15/10 06:09 PM
Ok I am really not having a good day.

An Ex contacted me on FB last week. I composed a nice short to the point msg back to him stating that I was M with kids. Full time job, no time to breath much less anything else.

Had H review it before it got sent. I asked H if the msg was to the point. IE M and not interest. H said yes, it was good. So Msg got sent.

No more contact with ex from me. However yesterday ex sent me a msg through FB again. The problem I have is that I got excited when I saw the msg. I did not respond however.

I spent yesterday asking myself why I got excited. I realized it was because here was an individual reaching out to me with conversation. The very thing I am still trying to get H to fulfill.

So this morning, I told H about how the email made me feel (yes he knew I had received it as we both get copies of all FB msgs) and that I was unhappy because it made me feel excited.

H still feels like there is not a problem here. He said "Ok I will have more conversations with you" I feel like I am dying inside waiting on H to realize how important this is for me, but he just seems to being doing just enough that he thinks he can squeak by.

Maybe I am expecting too much? I want to get excited to see and talk to H.

Are we spending enough time together.No.

I even made arrangements on Monday for H and I to take the afternoon off and spend half the day together. That resulted in us running errands because he wanted to get a new part for our vacuum. I had hoped to do something fun.

I am getting frustrated and feel like I want to give up.


Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: Recovery take 1 - 09/15/10 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
Maybe I am expecting too much? I want to get excited to see and talk to H.

I hear you on that. This morning I watched my wife again walk out the door without her phone.

When she was carrying on the affair, that thing was GLUED to her. She never went anywhere without it. She'd answer all of his texts instantly, stay logged into her Twitter account so she'd know when he was online, and was excited about using her phone to stay in touch with him.

Now we often go hours before she responds to my texts. If I'm working from the office, we chat all the way home... but she doesn't usually call me to initiate the chat. When I've asked her to do so, she says she doesn't feel right about it because she won't know what time I'm leaving work.

It's not that we don't talk. We do. It's very high on both of our EN lists. The problem is that she doesn't show the excitement she did with the OM. It's like I'm "Old Reliable" she knows she can talk to... we schedule a couple of hours every day, rain or shine. I don't challenge her thinking the way OM did; I don't have the incendiary political opinions he did to get her really engaged in the conversation. We agree on 90% of everything except church stuff.

It makes us compatible... but also makes it so that she's not excited to talk to me every day. The phone often stays home while she runs the errands, and I feel like an immense heel rather than a dynamic, interesting person.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 10/06/10 08:00 PM
I am still out here in the void.

H actually had a brief intimate conversation with me on the phone last week. It was the first time that has really happened since all this began. It was also when I realized I had built an ice wall around my heart. Until then I had not realized how much of a wall I have been hiding behind, until I felt it start to melt.

But unfortunately there has not been a repeat of that type of conversation and it is what I am longing for the most.

Monday I used my external hard drive to back up my laptop. Well that is where I had stored a copy of the email I had sent to OW a couple of days after I found out (before MB). I re-read the email and was amazed that I had sounded so authoritative in the email. I sounded like I was kicking a$$ and taking names and NO ONE would get in my way. I also re-read the part where I told her that I would be satisfied by the amount of emotional turmoil H and I reconciling would bring her, provided OW stays away from MY family. I needed that reminder. It has helped me start moving forward since I am going to keep my word, but I am doing it for myself.

H decided to surprise me last night. He had a training class that was suppose to run late, but he got out early. Since he was suppose to be in class I was suppose to go get our son.

Instead he left work at his regular time and called me on the way. He picked up our son from daycare. Unbeknownst to me, he also stopped at the local olive garden and picked up dinner for us. It was a nice surprise.

SF has changed. I use to enjoy it on a physical and an emotional level. Lately I have noticed that I am emotionally not there. I feel like this is inpart because I am still hiding behind that ice wall. I want H to break through it, but he is afraid to open up. So where does that leave us? Stuck in limbo since the very thing he is afraid to do, is the very thing my heart and soul are yearning for. frown
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 10/18/10 02:48 PM
Is it possible to feel wayward without being wayward?

I am very angry. Probably finally allowing myself to experience that anger in a somewhat healthy manner. It is weird, I still want H to experience the pain I feel. I want him to suffer as I do each and every day when I think about his betrayal. However I blatantly refuse to create an environment where I may betray him in the same manner.

I have noticed however that my sub-conscious is trying to give me that "revenge" anyway. I say that because I have been having a lot of dreams involving me cheating on him. Sometimes with multiple men at one time.

I have also noticed that on the days I have those dreams, I am very withdrawn and do not want to open up to anyone. I just want to hide. And if H tried to be nice to me, or do something nice for me, during that time, I get a rather hostile feeling.

Like I said, can you feel wayward without being wayward?

I do not like those feelings. So last night I explained to H all of the negative feeling I was going through, from the anger to the waywardness. I don't want to screw things up worse than they are, I just want to heal from this pain.
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 10/19/10 02:34 PM
Just be very careful, and watch your boundaries closely. Continue to be honest with your H about your feelings. You are VERY vulnerable right now. You dont feel emotionally connected to your H, you are angry and hurting. It is all to easy to justify doing something like this. I started feeling this way a few months before I acted on it, but I didnt really think deep down that I was capable of it. In the end I thought it would take the pain away, gain me back some of the power that I felt I had lost...

Right now you are "an affair looking for an affair partner". Revenge is very tempting, and the depths of your pain after your H's betrayal can make you look to anything just to make it stop.

It wont make the pain go away, it only makes it worse. Please be careful, and be very honest with your H about these thougts and feelings. Come back here often and post, do anything you can not to make the same mistake I made. I cant go back and change what I did, but I can share the knowledge I gained from it to help keep others from doing it.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 10/19/10 05:31 PM
Thank you Rising, for the understanding.

At the moment I have more feelings to run than to act on anything else. I asked H the other day how I was suppose to learn to trust when I continue to feel the need to run. For now I am trusting in God that I am where I need to be at the moment. I firmly believe that divine intervention played a part in the discovery and the circumstances that lead to H ending the A before I discovered it. So I need to trust that God will get me where I need to be as well.

I am getting very frustrated though. On D-day I removed all of H's computers from the house. I took them to my parents house for safe keeping, thinking I would need them if I went to a lawyer. They have sat there since D-Day, until last week.

H has been hemming and hawing about wanting his laptop, so he can game and hang out with me on the couch at the same time. I have had very mixed feelings about the laptop, due to it being an affair access point. Never the less, I attempted to bring it back with the understanding that it would need to be formatted, wiped, and have monitoring software installed on it. (these were part of our extraordinary precautions.) And H agreed to these conditions.

However less than an hour of having the laptop in the house with us (on the table not being used or touched) I started a major trigger set. I realized that I am associating he laptop with the affair. After seeing me so upset that I could not even sleep beside him, he took the laptop out of the house and put it into our van where it has remained.

Last night he said "I would like your permission to bring the laptop back into the house" I lost it again. I had asked after he removed it last week, that we sit down and discuss all the aspects surrounding the laptop. He agreed, but never brought it up again until last night when he wanted to "bring it into the house"

I tried to explain this morning, that to me the way he asked last night sounded to me as ==== I want my laptop back and am asking permission to get it...

I was hoping for === Lets get down to why this is bothering you and figure out away around the issues, so you will feel comfortable when WE decide to bring the laptop back to the house.


For the record, it is still in the van. He did not get it, but it did cause both of us to get angry and defensive.
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 10/20/10 02:41 AM
According to your signature line you are about 7 months out from DDay. You are probably hitting your anger phase. What normally happens is when you first discover the A you are struck with fear and after the initial anger you are concerned with saving the M. At about 6 months in you start to think that the M is going to survive and you start to get angry about what has been done to you.

* This seems to work differently for the spouses of serial cheaters when they realize how much of their lives have been a lie ("Save the M? We never had a M!") or for those whose spouses are doing the trickle truth (They end up just wanting the pain to stop). They seem to skip over or spend less time trying to save the marriage and move to anger more quickly. Just a note for any lurkers reading along.

Right now you probably feel some or all of the following-
pain of betrayal
anger
resentment
disillusionment
disconnected emotionally from your spouse
a "renter" mentality
powerless
hopeless
helpless
lonely
the return of your Taker (I have given enough, its time I got something back!)
feeling like its time for your spouse to start to "get it"
wanting to see them take the lead in Recovery
disappointment when they dont

You have 3 choices on how to deal with this phase
1) You can run. You have a leave the M guilt free card. Your H gave it to you when he had an A, it is your right to use it at any time if it just becomes too much for you.

2) You can have your revenge. This sounds appealing. You get to get even, understand what is so great about an A that your spouse could hurt you over it, you think that it will help you get rid of your pain, you wont be lonely anymore. Two things can happen here-
A)It does feel good, for about 10 seconds. Then you realize that you have sacrificed your honor, your integrity, its not that exciting, its empty, you now have a M that has to overcome twice the problems you had before, you still have your pain.
B)Your Taker LIKES it. You like having those needs met, you like having your revenge. You end up neck deep in your own A, and become a crazed wayward alien yourself. You are very vulnerable right now to someone meeting your needs. It can and does happen.

I dont recommend this option. I do recommend (as someone who painfully chose this option, thankfully I was one of the 10 second people) that you guard against it very carefully. When an opportunity presents itself to you, your Taker will want to take this option.

3) You can stay and continue to drag yourself through the mud of recovery. I think this is the option you want, because you love your H.

I looked over some of your more recent posts, trying to get a better idea of where you are right now. Some of the things that you say I can really relate to.

Feeling like your H chose you because if things that were undesirable about OW, rather than things that were desirable about you. I think that the things that a wayward sees as being wrong with the OP are the things that the spouse does better. Contrast Effect works both ways.

Wondering how they could do this to us. They could because they were selfish. It wasnt that OW was more than you, or better than you. It wasnt about OW, it wasnt even about you, it was about your H. He wanted to feel good, and getting his needs met by someone else was working for him. What he wanted was more important at that time than doing the right thing. It's harsh, but its true. Now I dont think most WS's run into an A thinking about destroying their spouses, they just have themselves convinced that no one will ever know so its not going to hurt anyone if they have their cake and eat it too. They live in some fictional place where what they do cant hurt you. They arent viewing this as a choice between you and OW, or even really thinking about you much at all. They are thinking about themselves.

The ice wall. You want your H to break through it, it is making you miserable. It is changing SF. Women need two things to enjoy SF, the prospect of enjoyment and an emotional connection to their partner. You have lost that connection. Have you sat down and figured out why you have that wall? What it is going to take from your H to break it down (In specific actions?) and then communicated those things you need to your H? He is probably feeling that you are withdrawn and doesnt know how to fix it. You probably are not feeling safe yet, since you dont feel he really "gets it" and the wall is your way of protecting yourself. You need that connection back though, because not having it is contributing in a big way to your wayward thoughts.

You dont feel your H is possesive enough. It feels like he doesnt care enough to even worry about you doing something. Again this contributes to wayward thoughts. You dont feel loved, and you dont really think he would care if you did cheat. He will though, so dont let that justification blind you.

The laptop issue...I struggle with that still. Those moments where they just dont seem to get it. I cant help you with how to fix it, but just know that you arent alone on that one.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 10/20/10 12:55 PM
Isn't amazing how sometimes when you bury yourself so deep, the world will throw you a big curve ball to knock you out of it.


I have been talking about how angry I am at H. And Rising is correct that my Taker has been in control for a while. The phrase "It is not fair that you....." has passed my lips more than a few times recently.


However last night we both received a big curve ball. Our cat that we have had for 10 years (adopted him for H while we were dating) had to be euthanized last night. He had lost a lot of weight and had trouble breathing/walking. So we knew it was time.

This is the first pet H had ever had, and the first pet he has lost. So I an reaching out to him in complete giver mode.

I have lost pets before, and although I am very depressed over the passing of our beloved cat, I see and understand that H needs me to be there for him now more than I need him to "repay" his debt earned during the A.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 10/27/10 02:13 PM
Friday H and I were witnesses to a friends Marriage. Although it took place in the magistrates office and we were the only witnesses, it was still nice to see someone who felt that thrill of the first blush of love.

I did have one very interesting thing happen while we were there. As we were waiting our turn in the magistrates office, I heard a thunk behind me. I did not pay it any attention until it occurred again. I looked up and there was some guy standing there. He motioned that he wanted me and him to "hook up".

I pointed at H, then pointed at my rings indicating I was not interested. It is kind of weird, and very relieving, that after all my thoughts of wanting H to feel the same anger I have been feeling, all I felt over this guy hitting on me was disgust. I had absolutely no interest, could not think of anything at that time other than H and our son.

I finally got a chance to ask H how he felt to have that guy hit on me in front of him. He told me he finally understands how it made me feel when he would flirt with other women in front of me. He said it made him feel very territorial where I was concerned, and that had I not already blown the guys off before H realized that guy was propositioning me, he might have gotten in the guys face to tell him to back off and leave me (HIS WIFE) be.

I have to say, although I am still angry, his reaction has at least made me feel a bit more wanted. And my reaction to the situation has eased my mind that I am not in immediate danger of doing something incredibly stupid.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 10/30/10 11:49 PM
Will the triggers ever end? I will have several good weeks, then all of a sudden a trigger. I will go from calm to chaotic.

It is after the triggers I find myself looking for even more. I find myself asking if I even want to continue on this path. Sometimes it feels like it is too hard.

DS has been sick all week so I am exhausted. Right now I just can not fight the triggers. I am way to easily frustrated atm.
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 10/31/10 12:05 AM
You are probably triggering more BECAUSE you are stressed with other things. It takes a lot of mental energy to maintain your positivity, when you are tired or stressed from other things you dont put as much energy into it, and you trigger more.

The down times are hard, and its easy to question in those times WHY you are putting so much effort in. With time though, you should start to notice that even though the down times are still hard, they are coming further apart. You wont take that dip as often, and the good days will start to outnumber the bad days. Eventually you will have very few bad days, and then you wont have them at all. I havent made it that far yet, but other people have. It can be done, if thats what you want.

hug I am sorry things are rough right now. Share that you are feeling down with your H and see if you can come up with something you can do together to lift your spirits up and bring you two closer. It will help to banish the triggers for awhile.

Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 12/14/10 03:57 AM
I am still out here.

Lately I have been having this overwhelming feeling that "I want MY life back."

What do I mean by that? I want more than just my marriage and my husband back. I want to stop feeling like I have to avoid certain places because OW may or may not be in that area.

I work in the area she was living in during the A. And this is the same area I did alot of shopping and errands previous to D-day. Since D-day I have gone out of my way to avoid that area, to the point that it has become a major inconvenience at times. Even giving up my favorite restaurant on the off chance that OW may be in the area.

It is worse for me right now, because at this time last year, I was busy spending my lunch hours shopping for H and DS. This year I have done 95% of my shopping online just to avoid the area.

I feel like I am running away and giving up MY turf because of this adulterous person. I HATE this feeling. I have been through a lot of personal trauma and have always taken back my life after those traumas, including a rape. So I believe in the philosophy of taking back my life from those forces who have tried to screw it up.

So why am I so afraid of running in to OW now? I had no contact with her previous or during the A. And have only had 3-party contact with her since D-Day (that being sending the NC letter H wrote to her)

I am terrified that if I do run into her, she will say something to me that will plant a toxic seed. And that seed will fester and grow, creating more problems in my marriage. We are working hard to re-learn how to be with one another. I am terrified that given the chance OW will undermine it with some diatribe about the activities that occurred between her and H during the A.

So where am I now? I am sitting between self-disgust for not taking back my life and fear that in attempting to, I will cause more harm to my marriage.

I do not have any want or need to confront OW any longer. I just want my normal life back. The everyday mundane. Hell, at this point I just want to go Christmas shopping without fear.
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 12/14/10 02:59 PM
Go shopping, take your life back. If you see OW, then walk away. If she tries to talk to you then say "NO!" and continue to walk away. Living in fear of her isnt healthy.

OW's are bad people and they lie. I know this because one of my H's Ow's tried to tell me all kinds of stuff I knew wasnt true (I was exposing on FB, and she must have had the first person I messaged call her immediately since her message to me popped into my inbox before I finished messaging everyone I needed to on my exposure list). Trying to tell me she didnt know he was married etc. even though I had seen emails of her asking him how his wife and son were doing. Dont put too much faith in anything that such a slimy person would say to you, it would most likely be a lie anyway.

Have you considered moving? It might help to just have new places to shop.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 12/14/10 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by RisingFromAshes
Go shopping, take your life back. If you see OW, then walk away. If she tries to talk to you then say "NO!" and continue to walk away. Living in fear of her isnt healthy.

OW's are bad people and they lie. I know this because one of my H's Ow's tried to tell me all kinds of stuff I knew wasnt true (I was exposing on FB, and she must have had the first person I messaged call her immediately since her message to me popped into my inbox before I finished messaging everyone I needed to on my exposure list). Trying to tell me she didnt know he was married etc. even though I had seen emails of her asking him how his wife and son were doing. Dont put too much faith in anything that such a slimy person would say to you, it would most likely be a lie anyway.

Have you considered moving? It might help to just have new places to shop.

Well I went out at lunch and took your advice. I went to the store and bought a frame I needed to complete H's last present. I do not know if OW was there or not, did not bother to look. I went straight for what I needed and then checked out.

I had H on the phone with me the entire time for support.

I must say it felt really good when I was done. I actually felt like I had accomplished something. I am ready to stop wallowing about the A. I am ready to take back my life piece by piece.

I think this may be the best Christmas present I could give myself this year.
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 12/14/10 10:16 PM
hurray Slimy OW doesnt deserve anything of yours. Take back what she stole from you, everything you can. Take back your H and your M, and everything else in your life that she has touched or ruined for you. It's the best gift you can give yourself and the best thing you can do for your M!
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 01/24/11 07:09 PM
Still trudging alone.

Had another D-day in the sense that WH admitted he had been lying about some of the details. It had still been bothering me, I guess I knew he was still lying and that is why I had been unable to let go.

But I do know he has not had any further contact with her since the NC letter.

I told H last night that what I think had hurt me the most is the lost of trust. I often wonder how I can ever trust again. It is such a heart-sickening feeling to not be able to trust your spouse to even run to the store.

It is exhausting to feel like I need to keep tabs on every little thing he does because he may cheat again.

I started reading SAA again. I had been so caught up in everyday problems, that I had forgotten some of the thing I was suppose to be doing, like avoiding LBs and angry outbursts.

When I realized that I had not been practicing those, I immediately apologized to H and explained why I apologized.

I had to stop taking my anti-depressants for about two weeks to recover from a vicious bout of bronchitis in which they had to put me on some major drugs. I am now back on them, however not before I had a full blown anxiety attack. H understood that the drugs contributed heavily to my anxiety attack, but that much of the anxiousness I felt ultimately came from our situation.

I am still trying to recover our M. We are talking on a pretty regular basis. We even had a date Friday night. But sometimes I wonder if any of this is worth it. If I can not trust him, can I ever have a real marriage with him?
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 02/06/11 01:19 AM
I am feeling less and less. Maybe it is just the 1 year mark being right around the corner.

H just kissed me upstairs and I did not feel anything, just numb.

Is this normal?

H is trying, but I currently have no interest in letting him in. What I see him doing though are the things that he is comfortable with anyway. Gift, teasing, jokes, ect.

But what I really want is the hardcore emotions from him. I feel like if he can is willing to leave himself that vulnerable to me, then he would be willing to tell me when things are not right in our M. Am I just crazy in that thinking?
Posted By: armymama Re: Recovery take 1 - 02/06/11 11:35 AM
Eula,

Trickle truth is horrendous. My H lied for nearly 2 years after d-day. Finally, we attended an MB weekend the end of Jan 2010 and it was either at that weekend or in the coach's call the next week, that H understood the damage from trickle truth. It has been one year yesterday since H became an honest man. This makes a huge difference and we are finally starting to recover. Openess and honesty is so important. Otherwise, how else are you to know if your H has a compaint about the way things are going.

For us, some days are still better than others. We are best when we follow MB to the T, getting more than 15 hours of undivided attention per week, using the policy of joint agreement, avoiding affair talk, etc.

Are you working the MB program with the books and workbooks?

AM
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 02/07/11 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Eula,

Are you working the MB program with the books and workbooks?

AM


We had been, but fell off for a while. I have started re-reading SAA. We are both trying to practice not using LBs. EPs are still being maintained. We know what each others top 5 are, and are trying to fulfill those needs.

And we are spending time together, although not as much as needed.

We talked Saturday night and I express that part of why I don't want to deal with him right now is that I have NO respect for him.

Since D-Day he is bending over backwards to make things right. The problem is that he is acting like a damn doormat. I do not want a damn doormat, I want a partner who loves and respects me. And part of that is standing up to me when I cross the line, which I have done at times.

I just want him to be honest with me, to love me, to respect me. Is that too damn much to ask?
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 02/11/11 04:01 PM
I feel like an utter dipshit...

Last night our local news had a story talking about social networking as the number one threat to marriages now. Since they make it so easy to run into old flames,ect. We all know the drill on these sites by now.

Because this is how H's affair started, the story triggered me badly. So I asked for his login USB (He has all his passwords on his USB through a program, and I have a copy of them). I asked for the usb drive because I wanted to make sure there were not any new sites I was unaware of..

He gave me the usb drive and sat down beside me. I started clicking at sites. Nothing really set me off. Then I clicked his Paypal. I saw an order placed last Monday for flowers that he had ordered for me for V-day..

He was trying so hard to do something sweet and surprise me at work with flowers. Now I feel like a dipshit because I ruined his surprise over my panic.

He has NEVER sent me flowers at work before. And it touched me tremendously that he tried to do so and surprise me with them. He even called my boss to make sure I would get them.
Posted By: Fred_in_VA Re: Recovery take 1 - 02/11/11 04:27 PM
Think about this, though:

If that's the worst you found, aren't you happy about it?

(And I say kudos to your FWH for not only trying to add to your $LB, but for not trying to hide the fact).
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Recovery take 1 - 02/11/11 04:45 PM
Quote
He was trying so hard to do something sweet and surprise me at work with flowers. Now I feel like a dipshit because I ruined his surprise over my panic.
Yay, ElunaInNC's husband! hurray

Don't ever feel bad that you've confirmed your H's fidelity.

Now QUICK! forget you did it so you can be surprised on Monday! grin
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 02/15/11 05:55 PM
If anyone was wondering, the flowers were a dozen red roses.

But I totally ruined any chance for him to deposit in my $LB. First by ruining the surprise. Then, I started wondering if the flowers were actually for me or for someone else. He had given me no reason to wonder if there was someone else, but I guess I am still so mistrustful of him that it boils down to once bitten twice shy.

Also some other things that are bothering me. Armywife asked if we are doing the MB program. I can not honestly say we are. We are trying to be mindful of LBs but ENs are falling desperately short.

He said his # 1 EN was affectionate/sensual touching. So I have been doing my best just to touch him, even if it is nothing more than holding his hand while we are in the car. He seems to be happy and fulfilled.

I on the other hand am far from it. I am miserable and unhappy. I feel like I am ready to give up and just walk away. Life without him right now looks so damn appealing.

I have repeatedly asked for intimate communication. H believes that telling about all the drama in his day is fulfilling that need, no matter how much I try to explain that it is not. I am very angry that we can not just sit down and have a conversation about our life, our family, our feelings. I am furious that he will not take time to focus on me. Yes I know I sound selfish saying that. But it is what I need right now. And that does not include playing video games or watching TV and trying to have a conversation.

I need him to be my friend right now. The gestures he is making to me are that of a lover. But as that song goes, "How can we be lovers if we can't be friends?" (And yes I told him that today)

The other thing that is really pissing me off. Whenever he does start in on his feelings, the first thing out of him mouth "I am so sorry for the pain that my decisions have caused"

I swear it is like a hot needle that sears my skin every time he says it. I appreciated the apology, but I do not want to keep being reminded of the A. I got so angry with him for saying it, that I did jump down his throat about it yesterday. I asked if he was intentionally continuing to bring up the A to cause more pain.

Posted By: Delta_ Re: Recovery take 1 - 02/21/11 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
He said his # 1 EN was affectionate/sensual touching. So I have been doing my best just to touch him, even if it is nothing more than holding his hand while we are in the car. He seems to be happy and fulfilled.

I on the other hand am far from it. I am miserable and unhappy. I feel like I am ready to give up and just walk away. Life without him right now looks so damn appealing.

I have repeatedly asked for intimate communication. H believes that telling about all the drama in his day is fulfilling that need, no matter how much I try to explain that it is not. I am very angry that we can not just sit down and have a conversation about our life, our family, our feelings.

Can you take him by the hand to your bedroom or some other quiet place away from the TV and other distractions and then stroke his arm, head, leg while talking to him about some topics you'd like to talk about?

If you enjoy your conversation, tell him. Give him positive feedback. Let him know how good it feels to you and that you look forward to having more quiet conversations later in the week.

Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 03/09/11 09:11 PM
I am just in a funk. Things are not getting better, and now I feel so confused, I do not even know what I want or need. How can I help him understand, if I can not even figure it out myself?

D-day anniversary is right around the corner, 2 weeks. And my B-day is next week.

We did keep our agreement to not be in the area on my b-day. We have a trip planned to head to the mountains for a week. MIL and FIL are taking DS for the time. So it will be H and I, alone. I am hoping that the time together will improve things.

I feel like I am ranging between apathetic and just plain depressed, with a pinch of raging anger. I have little or no drive to do anything, even the things I use to love.

Right now I have no desire at all for my H. I actually tried creating a romantic night for us the other night. I lit candles and incense, got disrobed and into bed. Then laid on his chest waiting for him to make a real move. The next thing I know, I am waking up from dozing off.

I told him yesterday that I just have no desire to "fix" things anymore. I told him that I feel like he has spent our entire M making half-a$$ attempts to do things, then leaving it for me to fix.

Before we got M, we were asked by the pastor to read HN-HN before the ceremony. I had some trouble getting started, so I bought the audio tapes and listened to them all (unfortunately did not do such a good follow through on the techniques) but I did at least listen to them. I felt our M was important enough to take the time to do it.

He read ten pages, then quit reading it. It was not as important as the video games he wanted to play. (Yes I am angry and resentful) I am seeing much of the same patterns now. He does something half a$$ed, then quits to do something more interesting.

After D-day, I asked him again to read HN-HN. He read a few chapters, since then it has been sitting on the floor in the bedroom untouched.

I have no desire to "fix" the things he leaves broken now. I feel like if our marriage is not worth enough to him that he is going to do what ever it takes to make things right, then why should I bother.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 03/23/11 03:42 PM
We spent a week on vacation for my birthday. It definitely helped to ease some of the tension. And the big trigger I was worried about, never really happened which is good.

We spent most of the time in the room, relaxing together, or just enjoying one another. There was one fight Thursday night. We had been to the indoor pool at the resort, and I saw him glance at a girl in a bikini. It just really threw me the wrong way and after several more thing biting at me (including my sister calling to ask if my "cat was suppose to be that big") , I finally got upset.

He apologized and said now he realized that it had been a cruel action.

I also got upset over one of his fantasies.The original fantasy involving just the two of us did not bother me. He told me in one version it was a 3-some. Sometimes with another woman, sometime with another man. After all we have gone through, it made me feel cheap and low that he would think of me as a sex toy for someone else.

I told him that it hurt me badly for him to think of me in that way. That is showed a lack of care and respect. I asked him to really visualize us following through with his 3-some fantasy, involving another guy. How would he really feel to watch someone else touch me like that.

I think I got through to him with my feelings, I could see the look on his face change as he went through it in his mind. The self-disgust and pain was evident.

On my birthday itself, I awoke to some bad news from my Dr. Turns out I need to have a biopsy done. He has stated that he really wants to be with me when they perform the procedure. This is a big difference than in the past, when I had been left to deal with health scares on my own.

In an effort to reclaim my birthday, he took me out for brunch, the for a nature hike by a beautiful river, and then shopping. We also went on an hour long boat tour and ended the evening with a nice dinner.

Since we have been back, things have been stressful. But he has begun to step up and really started looking for ways to care and protect me. Not only from himself, but also from other life stresses.

I know that the one year date is sometime this week, but I have refused to look up the actual date. I figured it is better that way, so I can not force a new trigger for the day. Maybe it is a good step to being able to live without constant triggers.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 03/24/11 02:35 PM
Well, to top things off it turns out I may have a metabolic issue the is causing a lot of my funk, at least my doctor thinks so.

She put me on a no-sugar diet yesterday, hell for a sugar-holic. H is even offering to join me in the diet.

Any other ideas to help move things out of this funk? Feedback please.
Posted By: toloveagain Re: Recovery take 1 - 03/24/11 02:57 PM
Whoa Eluna, reading your posts is like a twilight zone-esque peek into my own story...right down to the metabolic issue (no sugar diet sucks but helped me feel more "even keel" after about a week or so of withdrawal). I've only recently (as in days) begun posting here after a couple years lurking, and you'll see if you read my thread that I'm having some similar struggles right now, myself.

I'm still looking for my big "Aha!" moment that will smooth everything over so I can't really offer too much feedback in that regard. One thing that I have always leaned on to help me get out of a funk, however, is intense exercise. Yoga won't cut it. I have found that the intensity of my exercise has to match the level of my rage. I particularly enjoy loading my iPod up with angry music (think Rage Against the Machine or POD) and going for a run or a brutal weight lifting workout. I also enjoyed hitting a heavy bag (picturing OW face) for quite some time until I began to do too much damage to the joints in my hands from overuse, and a stress fracture in my fibia that took months to heal.

I don't know if this helps. It's what works for me; I always found advice about finding a calm place and doing calm things completely unhelpful. I believe that some emotions need to be expressed rather than doused.



Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: Recovery take 1 - 03/28/11 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by toloveagain
I believe that some emotions need to be expressed rather than doused.


While I partially I agree, I mostly disgree. Anger is something that makes you "insane". Willing to do crazy things like kick the crap out of an inanimate object long enough and hard enough to break your lower ankle.

What Dr. Harley recommends is to find ways to redirect your frustration into thoughtfulness. If that thoughtfulness includes exercise to relieve the frustration, that's great, but rage-powered workouts -- in my limited experience -- tend to lead to more rage-powered workouts. Whereas thoughtfulness focused on the goals I'm attempting to achieve tends to result in similar gains despite being slightly less "intense".
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 03/31/11 06:31 PM
Seriously. How long should it take before I stop feeling the need to question every damn thing?

We were on a pretty good stretch recently. Then Tuesday, I had to have a biopsy done. Since then I keep pushing him away. Everything he asks or says, I have the need to just tell him that "I will never be the girl you want" or "Why would you want reality with me, when you can live your dream fantasy with them"

Why am I doing this? Why do I feel this overwhelming need to sabotage the rest of our marriage?

He has been trying so hard to be there for me right now, and I just want to shred him for doing it.

I want to make our lives better together, but I keep getting stuck thinking about how much less pain I would be in if he had left. I say that because I feel like his very presence is a constant reminder of his A.

When I am with him, face to face, I can accept the comfort without much resistance. When we are apart, say at work, this is when I start to want to push him out the door the most. Maybe because it happened while he was suppose to be at work?

How much longer am I going to feel like this?

Yes we are working on the time together. Obviously I am having a horrible time right now with the LBs. Too much self-pity.
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: Recovery take 1 - 03/31/11 07:27 PM
Well, let's see, if my timeline is any indicator, by about 18 months to two years in you'll only feel this way a few days a month. 2-3 at the most if things are going well.

At six months, I still felt that way every darn day.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 03/31/11 07:30 PM
Thank you for responding Doormat. At least I feel like someone out there is listening.
Posted By: Doormat_No_More Re: Recovery take 1 - 03/31/11 07:38 PM
I'm usually reluctant to get too involved in the female-hosted threads... I prefer to offer advice to the guys on the board, particularly betrayed males. You know, new boundaries and all that.

But a new recovery is the toughest thing to go through. There are days where, all things considered, I'm not certain I made the right choice. Then my wife comes home, my kids surround me, we go do something fun, and it's all good until another random funk hits.

They seem similar in nature to the random funks I'd suffer for a few days each month prior to the affair, too. Just the target of my funks has changed, you know?
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 05/12/11 02:20 AM
Hi guys,

Been a few weeks since I have even looked around here.

Made it through the 1 year d-day and things seems to be getting better, slowly.

We had talked about renewing our vows, but after talking with our pastor, we have decided to forgo that for a while.

Ok so if things are getting better, why am I back here typing up a storm? DH's sister announced today that she is now separated. Her husband has decided to call it quits. I am hearing everything second-hand (probably for the better) but the commentary I am hearing sounds exactly like the fog-talk DH uttered while he was in an A. And this is now triggering the hell out of me.

A big part of me wants to put my two cents in, but I realize that it will not help anyone. She has decided to just let him go so he can be "happy". And no she thinks he is not cheating, but wants to find greener pastures.

Part of me is angry she does not see the fog talk, truthfully I think this is still the anger I carry for not seeing the A until it was almost too late.

Part of me is pissed that her H is so full of fog-talk, too many painful memories there and that is where that anger resides.

More than anything I am angry this keeps popping up in my life. I want to move on away from it. I am still working on building a type of trust with my husband, and these keep reminding of the pain and hurt making it really hard to move on.

An example, DH and I went to DC over the weekend. While we were on the metro, I saw a beautiful little baby and I kept thinking how much I would like to have another baby. But then I look at my husband, remember the A, and think how can I ever trust him enough to have another baby with him. It was partly the stress of a new baby that contributed to the A, so why would I do that again. On the other hand, I have to give up the dream of having another child which I dearly want.

I guess I just want it to disappear for a while so I can truly heal. Nice pipedream huh?
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 05/12/11 06:21 PM
I have the same issue with my husband's brothers ex-wife. She was a serial cheater, and just got divorced after her BH discovered her fifth case of infidelity. He even took her back after she gave birth to twin OC's and still she continued with her behavior. I tried to get her H into MB but he wasn't interested. He decided that she would be happier with POSOM. Their situation is just too similar to mine, and it makes me nervous that things may not be as good in my M as I think. Her BH thought they were working through things too, and it makes me afraid that I might be next. Even though it's not us or our M, it does make me suspicious of my H even more than I already am. It drags up the anger and the pain. I have to stay away, far away, from even talking about it or listening to anything to do with it or it hurts my recovery efforts.

And hug about the baby thing. I got my tubes tied after I gave birth to my DD because my WH told me that his infidelity was due to the things pregnancy had done to my body, and me not being as attractive as other women. I want to cry every time I see a baby or a pregnant woman. I gave up the ability to have more children and it hurts. It's hard to get away from that, babies and pregnant women are everywhere. We took the kids to the zoo and we were having a great time, and I saw this woman that was about six months pregnant. I felt such an overwhelming desire for another baby, until I looked up and realized that the mom-to-be looked almost exactly like one of his skanky OW's. It was such a slap in the face. Seeing the thing I want to so much, and then having such a harsh reminder of why I will not be able to have it. It totally ruined our day, I didn't even want my H to look at me, I just wanted to go home and cry.

It's hard, and I can relate to the desire to just run away from the world and escape all of these painful reminders.

It sounds like things are going better for you in general though, and that's great news! Maybe the reminders will get easier to deal with as time passes too!
Posted By: curious53 Re: Recovery take 1 - 05/18/11 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
DH's sister announced today that she is now separated. Her husband has decided to call it quits. I am hearing everything second-hand (probably for the better) but the commentary I am hearing sounds exactly like the fog-talk DH uttered while he was in an A. And this is now triggering the hell out of me.

A big part of me wants to put my two cents in, but I realize that it will not help anyone. She has decided to just let him go so he can be "happy". And no she thinks he is not cheating, but wants to find greener pastures.

Part of me is angry she does not see the fog talk, truthfully I think this is still the anger I carry for not seeing the A until it was almost too late.

Part of me is pissed that her H is so full of fog-talk, too many painful memories there and that is where that anger resides.

ElunaInNC, how is your H reacting to the news about his sister? Does he see the same red flags you see? It's possible this situation is triggering him as well as you. Sad, but also an opportunity for you both to show extra care for each other, which would count as LB$ deposits.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/06/11 02:00 PM
With all the stuff with H's sister, it triggered me alot. The situation left me feeling very insecure. H and I talked about it, we talked about us, we even had a LB session frown.

I spent some of that time telling him I was very unhappy (triggers?) and that again I still felt like my needs were not being met. I told him that yes, I could see the things he was doing to try to make things right, but I still felt empty and unfulfilled.

We talked more, and that is when HE pointed out that I had my number one need wrong.

I thought that I need conversation to feel close to him again. But he is absolutely right, my biggest need is SAFETY and SECURITY. The very thing the A attacked.

Everything in my life has been based on Safety and Security since I was assaulted at the age of 12. The job I chose, was because the likely-hood of losing it was so slim. I commuted back and forth to school when I was in collage, just so I would minimize any situation where I could be harmed. I check the doors at night, I hate staying by myself.

It is just a full life pattern.


How can he fulfill a need based on Safety and Security, when there is so little trust?

Please any ideas on how to fulfill this need?
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/06/11 03:31 PM
For the first time last week I told him that I felt sorry for him.

How angry he must have felt those first couple of weeks. The OW who "claimed" to love him ran away at the first hardship, IE when I found out. That she could not even be bothered to fight for him, whereas I have never stopped fighting for him.

He said that is had hurt him, because it proved how little she really cared for him.

I had said at one point in the first few weeks, that it appeared to me that she was just looking for a better life. He told me that now looking back he completely agreed.

I also asked him if it hurt that I could tell what was bothering him deep down inside, and all she did was tell him I was the cause of all his problems? He said that he had not thought about it in that way, but he was glad that I was the one to know him.

He keeps telling me that he is choosing me because I am REAL. I am not a fantasy, someone using him. That I love him for him, and not what I could get from him.

Things like the conversations above actually help me feel somewhat closer. I think it is because I see him opening up and showing me that vulnerable part.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/07/11 01:10 AM
Well nevermind everything above. I was trying out a new CC processor using his IPOD touch and found out he has been looking at porn again.

That was part of our agreement that he never look at porn again.

I am screaming inside, because everything is over.
Posted By: wulffpack_girl Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/07/11 01:53 AM
oh, no...I am so sorry to hear this update, especially after things seeming to get better! Have you confronted your H yet with what you've found?

((((Eluna))))
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/07/11 02:07 AM
I confronted. He is leaving for the night (i think) and I called my parents. I told them I wanted to bring the baby and come home.

I don't want our house. I do not want the finical sinkhole it is. I just want to get out and get away from this. I want the pain to be over.

My parents have a house that is almost finished that my uncle left when he passed away. I will work with them in getting that house finished for me and the baby.

Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/07/11 09:09 AM
Apparently WH (yes he is acting like a WH again) thinks that it is ok to break our no porn rule so long as he was thinking about me.


WTF????

I mean that is like saying it is ok for me to give oral to another guy as long as I am thinking of WH.....

I am so angry.

I do not know where to go here. He was diagnosed as being a possible sex addict. Keyword possible. Doctor could not be sure, even though he was demonstrating signs of addiction.

I can not go down this road again, this time it will kill me.

He wrote me some lovesick drivel tonight to tell me he is sorry, but I can not believe anything from him. Everything rings false to me. I have seen no evidence of other activity.

Where do I go from here? What do I do now? Should I move back to SAA board? Should I just move to Plan B/D at this point, and get on with my life?
Posted By: armymama Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/07/11 10:29 AM
Eula,

I am so, so sorry.


What do you want with your life?

AM

Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/07/11 11:35 AM
I am so torn right now.

I want this all to stop, without question. But everytime I look at my son, I hear a whisper in my heart telling me to have faith. I feel like if I walk away, it would destroy my son.

But if I stay, and it continues, it will kill me.
Posted By: armymama Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/07/11 12:34 PM
Eula,

I understand what you are saying. My H and I went through a false recovery. In Oct 2009, the keylogger revealed that H looked at porn a couple of times. Like your H, he had agreed not to view porn. Then a couple of weeks later, H contacted OW and they emailed and talked on the phone for about 10 days. H lied about this for the next three months. Here is what I learned in the false recovery: 1) that I could not MAKE H do anything. He had to want the marriage and I could not push/pull him into it. 2) that if our marriage ended, I would be ok - even better than ok.

Learning these things empowered me. I sent my H a plan Bish letter stating my expectations for our marriage. I then told him that if he did not want to meet these expectations, I never wanted to see or speak to him again. And I was ok with this.

Take a look at the false recovery thread. Essentially, your H is not being open and honest with you and is not transparent. That is step two of marriage recovery.

Hugs.

AM
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/08/11 12:16 AM
Originally Posted by armymama
Essentially, your H is not being open and honest with you and is not transparent. That is step two of marriage recovery.

I agree he is not being open or honest with me. He is "trying" to be transparent, telling me where he is, calling me from his work phone so I can verify where he is, using the gps tracker so I know where he is going. He just will not be open and honest.

He still has the wayward's misguided thought that he is "protecting" me from his behavior.

When we first got together, we could talk about any and everything. I do not know when or why that changed. I do know it was not something that happened overnight.

Today I picked up the mantra : actions not words.

As far as my parents, I called to verify that he had setup to go over there. I was told, and relayed the msg, that him going over there would not be the best idea at this time. My parents, like I, have no use for his apology until he actually starts fixing the problem. Until then it is all lip service.

I have been way too soft, part of me afraid of pushing him away again. But I do not need WH. I have other resources to take care of me and DS. I have places to stay, shoulders to cry on, and ears to listen. I think now it is time for tough love. Either he mans up and fixes it, or we go our separate ways.
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/08/11 01:42 AM
Just went through the porn thing with my H. It seems to me like your head is in the right place, keep your boundaries on this strong. He needs to put stronger EP's in place for the porn. Any device he can use to access the internet needs to be able to be monitored by you. If you cant put Spyware or a keylogger on it that will let you see exactly what he is doing then he needs to get rid of the device. You wont feel safe with him otherwise.

Dont accept less from him than you deserve, and you deserve more than an empty apology. Remember that true repentance comes with actions. The only acceptable line is "I'm sorry, and this is what I am willing to do for you to make sure that nothing like this can happen again..." followed by a list of EP's to prevent future incidents.

hug for you and your DS, and I am hoping that your H can get his head straight on this.
Posted By: brokenvase Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/08/11 03:09 AM
Dear ElunainNC:

I don't have time to post right now, but you and your husband may want to read our threads - I post as BrokenVase and he posts as Cantgetitright.

The title of his thread is How Can I Fully Meet the Need of Openness and Honesty?

Lots of lying in our story.

BV
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/08/11 01:02 PM
I told WH this morning that he has to choose between that other life or DS & me. The DS and I do not deserve to be caught up in his problems like this. That DS deserves to grow up in a happy/stable home, not with this kind of crap going on in the background.

I told WH if he can not figure out what he wants, or can not let go of his secret life 100% then he needs to step aside and allow DS & I to go on with our lives.

I have been very patient with WH over the years, trying to get him to open up to me, figuring it was residual trauma from the GF that cheated on him. After her he was never truly open again.
But at this point he will either have to take a leap of faith and be open with me, or lose DS & I forever.

My love for him has taken some major blows. And I do not love him with the same intensity I use to. I have no doubt that while it may hurt for me to walk away, once I make that decision it will be final. There is not enough love left in me for him to pull me back once I walk.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/08/11 01:07 PM
I would also tell him that if he needs help doing this that you will support him through that as a friend and when and if he is healed and the two of you still want to give it a try you can then.......
You can't go on resenting him the love you still have for him will not survive that.....
fix the problem first............
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/08/11 01:21 PM
Jess,

I can not support him because he will not let me.

I told him that he had lost a great opportunity to repair some of the damage to our relationship. That had he told me he was being drawn back to porn, it would have been a great way to open up and trust me rather than keep more secrets. It would have allowed a place for us to grow in a common goal. But he chose to keep it secret. He chose to lie. I can not fight a choice like that.

I would have been hurt if he had come out and told me the truth, but I would not be angry or resentful about it. I am angry and resentful because he chose to keep it secret. I found it on my own, the same way I have found out about most everything else in that second life.

There is no reason for me to let go of my resentment at this point. He has done nothing to ease it, and chosen to continue to add to it. And the truth is that the resentment is what will allow me to walk away if he does not show real repentance, humility, and honesty. Without those we have no hope anyway.

He can choose to accept support from me, by choosing repentance, humility and honesty. But he has to choose it.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/09/11 08:27 PM
He did attempt to open up a little yesterday.

He said he is going to go to counseling to learn to communicate with me. He has an appointment tomorrow.

WH asked what I thought about this. I told him that I was not comfortable with it. This is the same therapist that suggested hiding the A in an effort to maintain our M the very day I found out.

I told him that he already knew how to communicate with me, he just needed to stop listening to his fear. That since I started MB, I will admit to thoughts and feelings I am not particularly proud of. But I do this, because otherwise I am not allowing him to see me.

I told him the easiest path to radical honesty is this:

Take a deep breath, breath in, breath out.
Then just blurt it out. No thinking, no time for fear, just get the words out before your brain has a chance to engage. That over time, it becomes easier.

I think he really feels like the therapist will help. For now I am opting to not attend, since I have no trust in this therapist any longer.

Either he will do it or he won't. I can not make him. I can only choose my own path.
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/10/11 02:36 AM
So in order to fix the pain and anger over his IB and Dishonesty he is going to a therapist that you are not enthusiastic about him going to that encourages more dishonesty? doh2

You already know this person is not a friend to your M, and what your H is doing now is only more hurtful. My guess is that he likes this therapist because they are letting him off the hook. It's all about his childhood and possible sex addiction so it's not his fault he does these things.

Maybe you could try emailing the radio show and getting Dr Harley's advice about what to do next. If you havent done that yet both Dr Harley and Joyce are very nice and really try to give you great personalized advice...plus it's free grin

I'm off now to try and talk some sense into your H, maybe I can get him to reconsider and call the coaching center if he feels like he needs a professional.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/10/11 03:15 PM
He canceled the appt this morning.

I stated that I was not very comfortable with this, that I wanted a therapist that INSISTED on complete honesty in the M. But that ultimately the choice was his. That this therapist had suggested deception in the past to "spare" my feelings. But as I have told him time and again, for me a lie is a double betrayal and much harder to forgive than just an action.

In plain English: You did something you know would hurt me. Now you are hurting me again by lying to cover it up rather than manning up and admitting the fault. There are 2 betrayals there, the action and the lie. And neither one will spare my feelings forever, because the truth ALWAYS comes out sometimes.

I will NOT make these decisions for him. He has to decide what is more important to him; getting off the hook so he can have his secret fantasy life, or dealing with the harsh light of reality so he can keep him family.

After I stated the reasons for my discomfort with the situation, he called first thing this morning and canceled the session. He is suggesting church counseling,which we had kinda begun, just have not been able to work times out with the pastor for another session. And HE is trying to find a IC/MC whose practice is based on complete honesty in the M.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/10/11 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
He did attempt to open up a little yesterday.

He said he is going to go to counseling to learn to communicate with me. He has an appointment tomorrow.

WH asked what I thought about this. I told him that I was not comfortable with it. This is the same therapist that suggested hiding the A in an effort to maintain our M the very day I found out.

I told him that he already knew how to communicate with me, he just needed to stop listening to his fear. That since I started MB, I will admit to thoughts and feelings I am not particularly proud of. But I do this, because otherwise I am not allowing him to see me.

I told him the easiest path to radical honesty is this:

Take a deep breath, breath in, breath out.
Then just blurt it out. No thinking, no time for fear, just get the words out before your brain has a chance to engage. That over time, it becomes easier.


I think he really feels like the therapist will help. For now I am opting to not attend, since I have no trust in this therapist any longer.

I have faith and trust in your current decision making.
You are definitely calling him on his "sheet".
Good job!


Quote
Either he will do it or he won't. I can not make him. I can only choose my own path.

hurray

I only wish more BS's understood this as well as you do.
kiss

Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/10/11 07:36 PM
Well he is trying.

I just got a call from my supervisor to come to the front office. I was expecting her to ask me about the work habits of another co-worker.

Instead I found that my husband had sent a beautiful bouquet of flowers today. Apparently he ordered them this morning.

It has made me feel a little cherished.

The flowers are something that he never did prior to the A, no matter how much I told him I would like them. So that at least has changed for the better.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/14/11 02:49 PM
Weekend went pretty well. We went and made family portraits.

Yesterday, well what can I say. WH did come to my rescue.

I got rear-ended yesterday morning while taking our son to daycare. After the accident, I called tried to call H, and after not getting an answer, I went a head and called the police.

Once I had contacted the authorities, and knew they were on the way, I tried calling H again. When he answered I told him that he needed to turn around and come back, because DS and I were in an accident.

Then I proceeded to make other calls as needed; going to be late, in an accident, ect.

Well before the officer even arrived, H had mad it to the scene, and was trying to make sure DS and I were ok.

Once the officer was done, H followed me back home, and then proceeded to drive me and DS around all day. I had intended that we just needed to be checked out by a doctor really quick, then go on with our day. Fate had other plans. We did not finish having me and DS checked until well after 9pm last night (The accident happened at 7 am).

Neither of us was seriously hurt; just soreness, whiplash, bruising, ect.

The amazing thing is that WH stayed by our side the entire day. Not complaining once about me wanting us to be checked out. He even stood by trying to hold me while I was in the middle of a panic attack at the hospital. (There was a scare with DS, turned out to be shadows in the imaging)




Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/15/11 12:06 PM
ElumainNC,

I think your husband did a great job looking after his family yesterday and the flowers were a wonderful surprise as well......
It feels nice when they make you feel special............
Things sound very positive........
jessi
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 01:20 PM
Why do they not get the policy of honesty?

He admitted last night that over last weekend he had thoughts and urges to look at porn. (Score 1 for Jafo for coming out and admitting it)

When I started to ask about the thought process, he whitewashed. I asked how he had thought to accomplish looking at the porn (Here I was thinking, let's identify the weak spots so we can get EPs in place to cover them if needed). Jafo = "I didn't. I realized where my thinking was and stopped."

Ok lets get real, when we think about something we want to do, how many people have the thought I want and fail to follow through on what it takes to make it happen?

Many times it is "I want X, but it is not in my grasp." Ok, you wanted but failed to see a way to get it.

Or it is "I want X. I can get it at Y." "I want X. All it takes is Z to get my hands on it."

So I called Jafo on it. I told him that he was not being completely honest with me and it made me angry. Then I told him that it hurt me a lot to know that he continued to choose paper and light pixels over me and his son. (Sorry, but by my thinking if you will continue to lie about even part of it, you are choosing it over us.)

This morning he told me that I had been judgmental and that was why he did not feel comfortable being honest with me.. redflag dramaqueen

I told him I was not judging him. That prior to being lied to I was not angry. But I was calling him on the BS. That I would not allow him to steamroll me with off logic and excuses.

I told him about an incident last week when he admitted there were time he wished I had bigger boobs. I asked him if I had gotten mad at him for that comment. He admitted I had not. Then I told his that "yes, those words did hurt me. And by most standards I should have been really POed about it. However, it was an honest statement. So although I was hurt, I was not angry."

I told him that he needs to take off the fog glasses and see me for who I really am. Not who he has made me out to be in order to justify his actions and deceptions.

Why is it so hard to understand: 1 step forward, 2 steps back; you are farther than where you started.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 01:52 PM
Yes, let's get real; is it entirely possible that he began a compulsion; "I want to masturbate (let's face it, this is the ultimate goal of stimulation with porn - this is step one)."

Then we get two step two; "I want to view porn (so I can masturbate)."

Then, yes. At this point, he could easily come to the conclusion he stated - "I realized where my thinking was, and stopped."

If you want him to be honest with you, and he says he needs to feel safe in doing so, then there is a simple MB solution;

"I feel like you are not being honest with me."

No further.

As soon as you step beyond that statement, you are treading into the territory of disrespectful judgement, and you are no longer making honesty safe.

If you feel he is being honest;

"Thank you for being honest with me."

No further.

Again, going further wades you into the waters of Disrespectful Judgement.

When you used a past incident of honesty as an illustration of "how it should be" or whatever, you were using that instance to try and "straighten him out," or "fix him."

Stop that.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 02:07 PM
HHH is right.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 02:09 PM
The past incident I spoke of was an illustration of my reaction to honesty. Not how he should react. He thinks I will blow a gasket at honesty.

It is exactly the opposite. I get pissed when I am lied to. The "Fixing" you see, was me pointing out to him, my reaction not his.

That simple.


And for the record, there was more to the thought. He did finally admit that he had been trying to figure out where to get the porn..... <---- This is trickle truth too.


As far as the feeling safe dear, that is my need. And that is a need that continues to be undermined by his choices of trickle truth honesty and deception.

As far as being judgmental, that has been his fall back justification for everything. He says I am judgmental, so now he can do what ever he wants. She is judging me so I am justified in looking at porn. She judged me so I can treat myself to a trip to the strip club. HE admitted to this after the A.

DJ is NOT a justification for negative actions. It is a LB yes. But so is lying. And yes both are wrong.

I have spent the past year+ working on my DJ, learning to choose each word as it relates to ME when I am speaking with H. My feelings, my actions, my example. I purposely try not to judge him and his failings. Obviously I am not perfect, and am failing myself.

And after talking this morning, he even admitted that nothing I said last night was in judgement of him.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 02:24 PM
I want him to see me for who I am and right now he is not.

"If I tell her the truth about anything she will bash me over the head." < This is what he keeps telling himself.

But when he tells me the truth, I don't bash him over the head. Yes part of me does get hurt with the bad truths, but I see that as my failing not his. I tell him thank you for the honesty and actually get a little smile in my heart that he did trust me for that second.

I only get pissed when I am lied to. And I get really mad then.

When I discovered he was looking at porn again, (I found it, he did not tell me) I was disappointed that he backslide. I was angry that he did not tell me the truth. I was not angry about porn, only the lies.

His version of me is not based in reality and I want him to see ME. Not the person he developed in his head to justify his actions.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
The past incident I spoke of was an illustration of my reaction to honesty. Not how he should react. He thinks I will blow a gasket at honesty.

Then it is up to you, and keeping your side of the street clean, to prove him wrong.

I don't want FWW spending her break times at work with men. She quit smoking, so she no longer lingers outside on breaks, and often reads or snacks on breaks in the break room. Other employees, including men, also use the break room.

Now, when she tells me she talked to a male coworker during break, I have one of two options - blow up, or simply state "I don't feel safe when you do that.

Blowing up; be that through subtle use of love busters, or an all-out AO, will have one of two possible outcomes - a) she will discontinue the behavior, or b) she will continue the behavior, but no longer be honest because I blow up when she does.

It is my job to promote her honesty by making honest admissions safe. If I do not react with love-busting behavior when she is honest, then my side of the street is clean, and honesty is on her side of the street.



Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
It is exactly the opposite. I get pissed when I am lied to. The "Fixing" you see, was me pointing out to him, my reaction not his.

That simple.

Well, dishonesty is a love buster. Here is where the "fixing" occurs - you react negatively to actual or perceived dishonesty, and while in that negative reaction you point out a positive reaction to honesty.

Here is a comparison that I'm sure you will hate; A husband comes home and finds that his wife has not made dinner. So he hits her. Then he states "I didn't hit you last night when you made dinner."

Extreme. Harsh. Right?

But, understand that the behavior is no different. Love Busting is abuse. It's not excusable. Stop it.


Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
And for the record, there was more to the thought. He did finally admit that he had been trying to figure out where to get the porn..... <---- This is trickle truth too.

Fantastic. Great. You have proven yourself right. Was it worth a half a day of browbeating and Love-busting to do so?

Do you want to be in love, and your husband to be in love with you, or do you want to be right?


Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
As far as the feeling safe dear, that is my need.

Wrong. That is the need of both spouses.

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
And that is a need that continues to be undermined by his choices of trickle truth honesty and deception.

True.



Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
As far as being judgmental, that has been his fall back justification for everything. He says I am judgmental, so now he can do what ever he wants. She is judging me so I am justified in looking at porn. She judged me so I can treat myself to a trip to the strip club. HE admitted to this after the A.

So, knock it off!

My FWW started off chatting with the OM at work during her breaks and lunches because I wasn't, and he was simply there. Yes, it was her choice to look outside the marriage.

However, just because she was boffing some dude off in a storage unit a year ago does not give me carte blanche to ignore her needs or LB her.

If I want to "punish" her, it would be far healthier for me to just divorce, and move on to neglecting the next woman.

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
DJ is NOT a justification for negative actions. It is a LB yes. But so is lying. And yes both are wrong.

Reverse that. Negative actions are not a a justification for DJ.

As long as you continue to justify your own love busting behaviors, you are going to cripple your recovery. Stop it.

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
I have spent the past year+ working on my DJ, learning to choose each word as it relates to ME when I am speaking with H. My feelings, my actions, my example. I purposely try not to judge him and his failings. Obviously I am not perfect, and am failing myself.

Right? Are any of us?

I gave you the recipe above; simple statements.

I can't remember if it was Markos or CWMI that said it, but it was suggested to use a simple 5 word model.

I feel ______ when you ______ (okay, that's 6)

Again, when you go beyond that, you risk going into DJ territory.

Besides, Eluna, you don't have to JUSTIFY your emotions to your (F)WH. Why you feel that way is not important. He just needs to know "I feel hurt when you lie."

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
And after talking this morning, he even admitted that nothing I said last night was in judgement of him.

Then he was likely dishonest again to appease you.

Do you like the sound of that?

Do you want honesty, or do you want appeasement?
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 02:47 PM
HHH

Perhaps I am crossing the line, and I am trying to do better.

I am afraid he will continue to view me as that person rather than to see how I really act to honesty. That is why I felt like I needed to point it out. And you are right, that was probably not the best course of action.

Again I want him to see me. The real way I react to honesty. So how do I get him to see and understand that, especially when he wants to continue being dishonest?

Do way-wards really ever see the difference when you just leave it or do they continue to believe the fog they are using for justification?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
I want him to see me for who I am and right now he is not.

You are right, he is not. Because right now you are angry, and when you are angry you are temporarily insane.

If there is anything I have ever gotten right in my marriage, it is that I made no decisions or discussions with FWW while I was angry.

Emotions are flashes in the pan, and reacting in the moment of a strong emotion is foolish.

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
"If I tell her the truth about anything she will bash me over the head." < This is what he keeps telling himself.

Is it? He told you, right?

Ok. Then what can you do to make him feel safe in open, honest admissions.

Yes, O&H is an EN. Make a comparison; would you be reluctant to meet his need for SF if you don't feel safe? Is it either safe or smart of him to ask for you to meet a need that you do not feel safe meeting?

No, because then it becomes a selfish demand.

Try to rearrange your thinking into this; O&H is an emotional need, and to have it met, I need to make my spouse feel safe meeting it.

(sidebar - it seems that we have this preconceived notion about honesty/dishonesty that we carry into relationships - considering that, viewing it as an EMOTIONAL NEED, rather than a do-or-die way of life, we are better prepared to do what we need to do to? - make our spouse feel safe being open and honest - )

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
But when he tells me the truth, I don't bash him over the head. Yes part of me does get hurt with the bad truths, but I see that as my failing not his. I tell him thank you for the honesty and actually get a little smile in my heart that he did trust me for that second.

So, what can you do to keep promoting this?

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
I only get pissed when I am lied to. And I get really mad then.

Don't fall into the trap. Don't go LB for LB. That's just part of the crazy cycle you've been on the whole time.

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
When I discovered he was looking at porn again, (I found it, he did not tell me) I was disappointed that he backslide. I was angry that he did not tell me the truth. I was not angry about porn, only the lies.

Again, do not meet this with AO/DJ/SD.

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
His version of me is not based in reality and I want him to see ME. Not the person he developed in his head to justify his actions.

This is an extremely disrespectful judgement of him.

Reverse this;

"Her version of me is not based in reality and I want her to see ME. Not the person she developed in her head to justify her actions."

If were to say that, you should get pissed.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
HHH

Perhaps I am crossing the line, and I am trying to do better.

As Mel and Pep would say; "Then stop trying, and do it."

It begins with empathy for our spouse. Not forgiveness... just empathy.

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
I am afraid he will continue to view me as that person rather than to see how I really act to honesty. That is why I felt like I needed to point it out. And you are right, that was probably not the best course of action.

This is why short responses are best. Sometimes we get oral diarrhea when we start up, don't we?

I know I do.

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
Again I want him to see me. The real way I react to honesty. So how do I get him to see and understand that, especially when he wants to continue being dishonest?

Don't assume that he wants to be dishonest. He's a protective liar. Demonstrate that he has nothing to protect himself from in being honest with you.

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
Do way-wards really ever see the difference when you just leave it or do they continue to believe the fog they are using for justification?

I don't know. I can't see inside her head.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 03:26 PM
Can someone please link me some refresher information on DJ. Apparently I need to re-read it.

I am confused on this.

After the 2x4s I kinda feel like I am being told to just say thank you or that hurt me and continue to allow the behavior. For the record I know that is not what I am being told, this is just what I am feeling like atm.

So help me understand how to ensure EPs are met, how to handle when they are broken, and how to avoid DJ in the process.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
Can someone please link me some refresher information on DJ. Apparently I need to re-read it.

I am confused on this.

After the 2x4s I kinda feel like I am being told to just say thank you or that hurt me and continue to allow the behavior. For the record I know that is not what I am being told, this is just what I am feeling like atm.

So help me understand how to ensure EPs are met, how to handle when they are broken, and how to avoid DJ in the process.

Quote
In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force our spouses to give us what we want in marriage, but it's often cleverly disguised. Instead of making an outright demand, we present our problem as if it were really our spouse's personal shortcoming. We try to "straighten out" our spouse in an effort to get our way.

At the time we rationalize our disrespect by convincing ourselves that we're doing our spouses a big favor, to lift them from the darkness of their confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If they would only follow our advice, we tell ourselves, they could avoid many of life's pitfalls-and we would also get what we want.

A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=3&sublink=23&subsublink=95

Eeek. I was trying to be as unharsh as possible, but still be honest and direct.

O_o

Look at this statment "continue to allow the behavior."

Eluna... you can't control his actions. That is why he has to be the one to keep his side of the street clean.

Attempting to control him is setting yourself up for failure.


Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 04:18 PM
But how should I react when he breaks EPs?

If I ever reach the point of not being able to take it anymore, say my bank is so far in the red there is no recovery. Then what? Do I just pack our bags and leave without a word? Do I hold my tongue on everything he does that hurts me?

I can not control his actions, but how do I handle my reactions to his actions?
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/17/11 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
But how should I react when he breaks EPs?

If I ever reach the point of not being able to take it anymore, say my bank is so far in the red there is no recovery. Then what? Do I just pack our bags and leave without a word? Do I hold my tongue on everything he does that hurts me?

I can not control his actions, but how do I handle my reactions to his actions?

Smile. Give him a kiss. State "Your actions are destroying my love for you." And walk away.

It doesn't require a dissertation, just a simple statement.

*edit*

EMPATHY is how you handle your reactions.

Take just 2 seconds to think - "If he were to do this to me, would it hurt?"

Take the high road, if you will. Don't react to his abuse with abuse. That's just crazy.
Posted By: jafo4 Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/18/11 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
As far as being judgmental, that has been his fall back justification for everything. He says I am judgmental, so now he can do what ever he wants. She is judging me so I am justified in looking at porn. She judged me so I can treat myself to a trip to the strip club. HE admitted to this after the A.

I don't know if it's bad form for me to post in my wife's thread or not, but HHH your comments while I know you are trying to help us has had an opposite effect. Eluna has been very upset because she is getting 2x4ed for things that I had said, some of them she did deserve and she admits that. The comment above that you say she is being DJ about are not her words, they are mine. She is relaying to you what I have said to her to justify my actions.


Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
His version of me is not based in reality and I want him to see ME. Not the person he developed in his head to justify his actions.

I have to admit that I have had an unrealistic view of my wife; I use to have a friend that I spent a lot of time with that did cheat on his wife multiple times. He thought that Eluna was a very judgmental person because she didn't like how he acted most of the time. So she was trying to stand up for herself and it would get to him. When she and I would have an issue, he would use those times of weakness to colored my view of her into thinking she was as judgmental of me as she was of him. Such as telling me that she is full of it, or she was being immature and childish. He was trying to convince me that how she views him was how she viewed me. Which wasnļæ½t true, she didnļæ½t view me like what she saw in him. I did have an epiphany that I didnļæ½t start calling her judgmental until this person had come into our lives. Some of you are going to say how could you be that weak to let this other person color your view of your wife. Well when you are down and feel like everything is falling apart, some charismatic person dangles a carrot in front of you, you tend to reach for it.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/18/11 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by jafo4
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
As far as being judgmental, that has been his fall back justification for everything. He says I am judgmental, so now he can do what ever he wants. She is judging me so I am justified in looking at porn. She judged me so I can treat myself to a trip to the strip club. HE admitted to this after the A.

I don't know if it's bad form for me to post in my wife's thread or not, but HHH your comments while I know you are trying to help us has had an opposite effect. Eluna has been very upset because she is getting 2x4ed for things that I had said, some of them she did deserve and she admits that. The comment above that you say she is being DJ about are not her words, they are mine. She is relaying to you what I have said to her to justify my actions.

Jafo, MB is about each individual spouse keeping their own side of the street clean; avoiding LB's and meeting EN's. I'm not coming from a strange place, or any place which I myself am or have been better. I am simply passing on the way this works, and how to adapt our thinking to best apply MB to our lives.

Disrespectful Judgments are a double-edged sword of a Love Buster, because we don't have to speak them for them to make withdrawals. Just thinking about our spouses in a disrespectful or judgemental way makes withdrawals. Worse, it does so without their knowledge or consent.

Furthermore, you have demonstrated a pattern of protective dishonesty. If this is a case of doing so to appease your wife, you are also promoting her withdrawing units from your Love Bank in an act of sacrifice and appeasement.

This will not help you to fall in love with your wife, Jafo.
Originally Posted by jafo4
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
His version of me is not based in reality and I want him to see ME. Not the person he developed in his head to justify his actions.

I have to admit that I have had an unrealistic view of my wife; I use to have a friend that I spent a lot of time with that did cheat on his wife multiple times. He thought that Eluna was a very judgmental person because she didn't like how he acted most of the time. So she was trying to stand up for herself and it would get to him. When she and I would have an issue, he would use those times of weakness to colored my view of her into thinking she was as judgmental of me as she was of him. Such as telling me that she is full of it, or she was being immature and childish. He was trying to convince me that how she views him was how she viewed me. Which wasnļæ½t true, she didnļæ½t view me like what she saw in him. I did have an epiphany that I didnļæ½t start calling her judgmental until this person had come into our lives. Some of you are going to say how could you be that weak to let this other person color your view of your wife. Well when you are down and feel like everything is falling apart, some charismatic person dangles a carrot in front of you, you tend to reach for it.

A good portion of us, Jafo, had no idea what a Disrespectful Judgement was until we adapted MB.

Here's what is going on here; you are disrespectfully judging your wife.

However, I implore you to reread and review what a disrespectful judgement is;

Quote
In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force our spouses to give us what we want in marriage, but it's often cleverly disguised. Instead of making an outright demand, we present our problem as if it were really our spouse's personal shortcoming. We try to "straighten out" our spouse in an effort to get our way.

At the time we rationalize our disrespect by convincing ourselves that we're doing our spouses a big favor, to lift them from the darkness of their confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If they would only follow our advice, we tell ourselves, they could avoid many of life's pitfalls-and we would also get what we want.

A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.

In most cases, a disrespectful judgment is simply a sophisticated way of getting what one spouse wants from the other. But even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our spouses, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful. That's when we make sizable withdrawals from the Love Bank.

It's a simple recognition; certain particular Love Busters are done with a simple intention; to have our spouse meet our needs. In doing so, we destroy our balance in their love bank.


Kudos to you for having the intention of protecting your wife, Jafo.

Just bear in mind - "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/18/11 04:28 PM
Hhh,

I apologize but I can not take your advise to state "your actions are killing my love for you" and then walk away. This advise is a well known technique teenage girls use to manipulate their boyfriends known as mind-reading. It goes like this,

Boyfriend does something stupid that hurts girlfriends feelings, typically unintentional.
Girlfriend "you hurt my feelings."
Boyfriend "what did I do?"
Girlfriend "YOU KNOW what you did."


I believe in stating the offense and result flat out. Otherwise we are expecting our spouse to know what hurt us. They are not mind readers and it is cruel and manipulative to force them to jump through hoops in order to figure out a wrong.

After that point, yes walking away is probably a good way to go.

Now for the rest. I felt brutalized after you finished yesterday. That is the most I had cried since I found out about the A my husband had. I am sure your intentions were good, and I do not mind a few 2 x 4s when I F up, but I veiw your responses as overly harsh and hurtful. Truth be told it seemed like you were taking your frustrations out on me.

Thereforew. I respectfuully ask that you refrain from posting in my thread HHH.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/18/11 05:37 PM
Oh my.
Well, why not email the Harley's and try to get on the radio show next week?
Maybe that will help.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/18/11 06:01 PM
May I suggest you read this together and talk about it.
It can't hurt, right?

Quote
Rules that Guide Good
Habit Formation in Marriage

By Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.

Almost everything we do is repeated over and over. That's because we're creatures of habit. While it may seem to us that we're making creative decisions about what we do throughout the day, we actually tend to be on auto-pilot most of the time. As long as our behavior is useful to ourselves, and not objected to by others, we're fairly predictable.

But if our behavior becomes a problem to others, we're encouraged to change. And change is not easy. It takes effort. In some cases, it takes tremendous effort.

My basic approach to helping a couple create a mutually satisfying marriage is to focus on the effect that their habits have on each other. I help spouses eliminate habits that cause unhappiness and create habits that cause happiness. It not only leads to a mutually satisfying marriage, but it also creates and sustains romantic love.

Most people see the sense in spouses learning how to make Love Bank deposits and avoiding their withdrawal. But as I've noted so many times before, knowing what's right and doing it are two entirely different issues, especially when it involves doing something new. So in this newsletter article, I address the topic of how to create new habits because they make or break marriages. Let me begin with a very brief review of how habits are formed. Then I'll explain how rules can guide motivation to create good habits.

Habits 101

Habits are formed through repetition. The more often you do something, the stronger the habit becomes. If you want to meet an important emotional need that you have been failing to meet, you should practice the behavior that meets that need until it becomes almost effortless.

An example of this principle is affection. If your wife (or husband) feels that her need for affection is not being met by you, ask her to make a list of behaviors that meet that need for her. Then, practice each behavior on that list every day until they all become habits. At first, while learning the new habits, your effort and awkwardness may diminish the effect somewhat. But eventually, your habits of affection will become smooth and expressed from the heart. When that happens, making massive Love Bank deposits will become almost effortless.

Motivation 101

While it's repetition that creates habits, it takes motivation for a person to repeat a new behavior long enough for it to becomes a habit. My greatest problem in helping couples restore love to their marriage is motivating them to do what they know would work. It's a problem because I am greatly limited in my ability to provide what's known to be the most effective ways to motivate people.

The most effective motivation to repeat a new behavior is the enjoyment of the new behavior itself. The more enjoyable the behavior, the more likely you'll repeat the behavior. For example, you may never have gone fishing until a friend invites you to join him. On that one outing, you may find fishing to be one of the most enjoyable experiences of your life. If that's the case, even though you've not yet developed the habit of fishing, you will take every opportunity to repeat the experience. Eventually, fishing will be a habit. I call this motivator MR1 because it's usually the best way to motivate a person to repeat behavior.

Another effective motivation to repeat new behavior is to experience enjoyment after you behave in a new way. For example, if you have a need for sexual fulfillment, and your wife agrees to make love to you whenever you help her with the dishes after dinner, chances are good that you'll get into the habit of helping with the dishes. This motivator is MR2 because it's usually less effective than MR1.

A third motivator, MR3, is punishment. If you suffer pain when you fail to repeat a behavior, you will tend to repeat that behavior until it becomes a habit. When we punish our children for failing to clean up their rooms, they will get into the habit of room-cleaning if the punishment is far worse than the pain they experience making their bed and putting their clothes away. I call this MR3 because it's usually less effective than either MR1 or MR2. Those of us who tried to use punishment to motivate our children to keep their rooms picked up can attest to punishment's limited usefulness as a motivator.

Rules That Create Romantic Love

As a counselor helping couples create romantic love, I try to use MR1 and MR2, and avoid MR3, whenever possible. And rules help me do it.

The Policy of Joint Agreement -- never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse -- helps spouses work together to try to make new behavior enjoyable (MR1). This policy rules out MR3 because punishment would never be agreed to enthusiastically. In the case of affection, for example, I encourage the spouse trying to meet that need to discover the most enjoyable ways to do it. If he enjoys practicing affectionate behavior, he'll develop the habit of being an affectionate husband in no time.

The Policy of Undivided Attention is a rule that helps create MR2. Give your spouse your undivided attention a minimum of fifteen hours each week, using the time to meet the emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation, and recreational companionship. By meeting all four emotional needs, the effort of one spouse is rewarded by having their own needs met. That's why I encourage couples to spend 15 hours together each week: It takes that long to meet all four emotional needs adequately.

If a rule to guide habit formation doesn't address motivational issues, it won't work. But when it requires couples to implement the most powerful motivators available, it always works. All you need to know to create a very successful and romantic relationship is these two rules, the POJA and the POUA. When you follow them, your marriage will be everything you could have ever dreamed it would be.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/18/11 07:21 PM
Thank you for the information Pepper, and we will both be sure to look over it.

As for the Radio show, I have not looked at it as an option so far, but we will discuss it as well.

For me, I am going to step back and take a few days away from MB to recuperate.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/18/11 08:31 PM
Quote
Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery

After you are through withdrawal from the addiction to your lover, your depression will have lifted and you will no longer feel a craving to talk to your lover. At that time you will be ready to put into place rules that will guide you and your husband toward a deep love for each other. After you have followed the rules for a while (six months to two years), you and your husband will be soul-mates.

These are the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery that you and your husband should follow to help you restore your love for eachother:

1. The Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.

If you and your husband want to be in love with each other, you must build your Love Bank accounts. But before you build them, you must be sure there are no leaks in the Love Bank. It's pointless to deposit love units into a sieve, where every deposit is promptly withdrawn by a Love Buster. So you must make a special effort to plug up those leaks by committing yourselves to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

The most obvious things spouses do to ruin their love for each other is what I call Love Busters. They are angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, annoying behavior, selfish demands and dishonesty. I describe these destructive habits in my basic concepts, but if you need special help learning how to avoid them, I suggest you read, Love Busters: Overcoming Habits that Destroy Romantic Love. This book will help you identify the Love Busters that keep emptying your Love Bank accounts, and show you how to stop inflicting them on each other.

Most of the Q&A columns I've posted on the Marriage Builders&#65454; web site focuses attention on the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). This policy protects both you and your husband from each other thoughtless decisions. Your affair was a blatant example of thoughtlessness on your part because you knew it would hurt your husband, but you went ahead and did it anyway. The Policy of Joint Agreement is a very important guide to helping you keep the Rule of Protection. That's because it helps you realize that anything you do that hurts your husband is off limits to you, regardless of how wonderful it makes you feel.

If you had followed the Policy of Joint Agreement, you would never have had an affair. But the Policy will also help you avoid hurting each other in a host of other ways, too. My book, Fall in Love, Stay in Love, can help you learn how to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, and use it to negotiate agreements that are fair for both of you. Once you learn to negotiate with each other fairly, you will have learned how to follow the Rule of Protection.

2. The Rule of Care: Meet your spouse's most important emotional needs.

The way to deposit the most love units is to meet a person's most important emotional needs. Your lover did that when he wrote you all those e-mail letters because conversation was your most important emotional need. After one month of filling your Love Bank with thousands of love units that were e-mailed to you, you found him irresistible -- you were in love with him.

Conversation is not your only important emotional need. Affection, recreational companionship, admiration and sexual fulfillment may be some of the other important emotional needs that your lover met. Unless your husband eventually meets your must important needs as well as your lover met them, you will be frustrated and at risk for another affair.

Sometimes a spouse must learn to meet a need that he or she has never been very effective in meeting. Many of the spouses I've counseled have had to learn to be affectionate for the first time in their lives. They also have had to learn to be stimulating conversationalists and skilled lovers. They have had to learn to provide greater financial support, become more effective in their parenting skills and learn to become admiring instead of being critical. New habits that lead to need fulfillment can be learned by anyone. All it takes is a plan and willingness to follow it until expert level is achieved.

But your husband may already know how to meet your emotional needs. An important reason that you had an affair was that your husband's work schedule prevented him from giving you the attention you craved from him. When you and your husband agree to follow this second Rule to Recovery, his work schedule will no longer stand between you, because meeting your needs will become your husband's highest priority. All the needs that your lover was meeting for you will be met by your husband in the future.

If you need help identifying and learning how to meet each other's important emotional needs, I suggest you read, His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage. It describes the ten most important emotional needs for men and women, and how to become an expert at meeting those needs. When your husband has learned to meet your needs, he will be depositing so many love units that his account in your Love Bank will be overflowing. By then, you will be thoroughly convinced that leaving your lover to rebuild your marriage was the right decision to make.

3: The Rule of Time: Give your spouse your undivided attention.

You indicated in your letter that it was the lack of your spouse's attention that drove you into the arms of your lover. But it may have been more a lack of time than a lack of attention. As I already mentioned, your husband may already know how to meet your emotional needs, but unless he sets aside enough time to do it, all of his skill does you no good at all. It's the man who gives you time for undivided attention who will win your heart.

I suggest that you and your husband plan to spend at least 15 hours each week together, giving each other your undivided attention. Use that time to meet each other's emotional needs for affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. I have found that if that amount of time is taken to meet emotional needs, you can spend the rest of your 100 waking hours each week doing just about anything you please, without any risk to your love for each other. But if you do not set aside that time, your good intentions will not buy you a single love unit.

Since most everything we do must be scheduled or we don't do it, I suggest you take about a half an hour each week (say, Sunday afternoon from 3:30 to 4:00) to schedule your time together for the next week. Get out your schedules and write each other into your appointment books. Once scheduled, don't let anything interfere with your time together.

I suggest spending the same days and times together every week because it's easier to remember than a new time each week. Besides, you can be better emotionally prepared to be with each other if you always know that Tuesday evening you will be together from 7 to 10.

I also suggest that you spend time together when you have plenty of energy. Don't give each other the leftovers, give each other the best of yourselves. That's why I generally rule out time together after 11:00 pm. For one thing, you need your sleep for the challenges of the next day, and for another, there are not too many people who are at their best that late at night.

Finally, I suggest that you spread your time out every week, giving each other at least one hour of undivided attention every day. I am generally opposed to cramming all of your time together into a marathon weekend of 15 hours, because undivided attention is required, and 15 hours of anything makes undivided attention almost impossible.

4. The Rule of Honesty: Be completely honest with your spouse.

We have already discussed honesty as an extraordinary precaution to prevent you from contacting your lover, so I won't say much more about it. But what you begin as an extraordinary precaution, must become the standard way you and your husband communicate with each other -- with openness and honesty.

You have not been honest with your husband. If you had been honest, you could never have had an affair. Your honesty is your husband's greatest protection because it lets him know what you are up to. It also helps you both make adjustments to each other. Instead of having an affair, you should have told him how unhappy you were with his negligence of you, and how you were falling in love with another man who would give you his time and attention. If you had ended the budding relationship then, and focused on getting more of your husband's undivided attention, you would not have put both of you through such an ordeal.

The Basic Concepts section of this web site contains a section entitled, "the Policy of Radical Honesty." It outlines precisely what the rule of honesty is. It's complete honesty. I want you to read it over very carefully, because it explains precisely how honest you and your husband are to be with each other.

But be careful not to let Love Busters ruin the purity and value of honesty. Keep anger, disrespect and demands out of your honest expression of facts and feelings. If you can do that, you will find your honesty will not only help you find solutions to your problems, but it will also draw you closer together, and help you become the soul-mates that you can be.

If you are willing to permanently end your relationship with your lover (never see or communicate with him again), get through withdrawal, and then you and your husband follow the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery, I guarantee you that you will have a great marriage. And I also guarantee you that neither of you will ever suffer through an affair again.

Quote
Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse

I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/20/11 11:04 PM
Yes I resent my husband.

He has continued to lie to me, the very action I feel allowed him to have a secret second life. The very action that allowed him to have the affair and keep it a secret.

This is the root of most of the anger I feel towards him. I realize I am not angry over the A anymore, I am angry over the continued lies.

Harley talks about resent versus recovery.

Quote
Recovery may not be complete

Resentment usually appears when an experience of the present reminds us of a painful experience of the past. For example, if a wife had been abandoned by her husband after a fight on a vacation, left to find her way home alone from Jamaica, the resentment of that experience would pop up whenever her husband walks out the door during an argument. Very often, continuing resentment means that whatever it was that caused the painful experience is still lurking in the background. And it jumps out every once in a while when evidence of it's existence surfaces.

The procedure for recovery that I suggest usually eliminates the root causes of infidelity, and that makes it unlikely that present experiences will remind a spouse of experiences associated with an affair. If the only time you feel resentment about a spouse's past affair is when your needs have not been met, when your spouse is engaged in a Love Buster, or when the Policy of Joint Agreement or Policy of Radical Honesty has not been followed, then it's the completion of recovery that's your problem, not resentment.


Because someone does not want to get in trouble for their mistakes is not a reason to lie. By saying someone is a protective liar, it sound like it is ok to lie so long as they are protecting themselves. There are no ifs ands or buts. Nothing makes lying ok.



Quote
Couples are not only ignorant of ways to improve their marriages; they are often ignorant of the problems themselves. To avoid conflict, they sometimes deliberately misinform each other as to their feelings, personal history, activities, and plans. This not only leads to a failure to meet an important emotional need, and a withdrawal of love units when the deception is discovered, it also makes marital conflicts impossible to resolve. After all, how can you and your spouse solve a problem if your cards are not on the table?

To help you understand how honest you need to be to have a successful marriage, I have written the Policy of Radical Honesty. I call it "radical" because that's how many see my position on the subject. But I view my policy as simply advocating complete honesty in marriage. In our culture I guess that's a radical idea.

The Policy of Radical Honesty

Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.

To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts:

1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior.

2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.

3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse.

4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives.

To some extent this policy seems like motherhood and apple pie. Who would argue that it's not a good idea to be honest? But in my years of experience as a marriage counselor, I have constantly struggled with the belief of many clients that dishonesty can be a good idea under certain conditions. Moreover, pastors and counselors themselves often advise dishonesty when a spouse has committed a particularly thoughtless act, such as infidelity. And many marital therapists warn against complaining, something that some consider one of the seven deadly sins of marriage. So instead of complaining, spouses often stuff their feelings and try to put a good face on a bad situation.

Granted, dishonesty can be a good short-term solution to marital conflict. It will probably get you off the hook for a few days or months or keep the problem on the back burner. But it's a terrible long-term solution. If you expect to live with each other for the next few years and still be in love, dishonesty can get you into a great deal of trouble.

Since I was a teenager, I have believed that lying is a two-fold betrayal. First you have betrayed me with whatever you are hiding, otherwise you would not be hiding it.

Second you lie to cover it up. This is the second betrayal.

I have believed this since I was 13 years old. 13!

I resent being lied to. Plain and simple.

And my marriage can not be fixed or healed until the lies stop.

No matter how I handle the situation, it is still my husband's CHOICE to lie or be honest. He knows these are my feelings, he has known this since we met when I was 16. He has to choose honesty over fear. After all, I chose him over seeking to protect myself from the pain his actions caused.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/21/11 05:10 AM
We cannot advise you as to how to "fix" your husband. It would be nice if we could, but we cannot.

He needs to own up on that.

I cannot "fix" my wife. It would be a fruitless effort which would destroy her love for me, as well as destroying the love I am trying to rebuild for her.

Being a protective liar does not make it "OK."

Read the literature more. Protective liars are one of the types of liars Dr. Harley mentions.

It could be just as true that Jafo is a "born liar," and will never be honest.

You wouldn't be expected to tolerate continued dishonesty.

As betrayed spouses, the best we can do is to keep our side of the street clean, Eluna. No ifs, ands, or buts. We keep our side of the street clean.

If our (F)WS's can't keep their side clean, then we have the choice to move on. Nay, we have the right to no longer tolerate their abuse or neglect.

But, to do so with a clean conscience, to do so knowing that we did what we were supposed to do, we also have to follow the same rules.

Don't become the thing you resent.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/21/11 10:45 AM
Since my request that HHH no longer post on my thread has been purposely ignored twice, I sought help and was directed to the ignore user function.

For the record. HHH has now been ignored and I can no longer view anything he says.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/21/11 01:39 PM
The weekend was a bit trying, not because of anything H did, but because I was so upset. H understood why I was upset, listened to my feelings, and tried to get my mind off of it.

H managed to get my mind off of things for a little while on Saturday, which was a good thing. Otherwise I would have allowed the drama to ruin our anniversary.

Instead, I called my parents and asked them to keep our son for a few hours. H and I went out to eat, and then played miniature golf and ski ball. We just enjoyed ourselves. No competition, just us.

Sunday we got up and went to church. Left from church and went to my parents for Father's day. Had dinner with them, then came home and put DS to bed.

We talked for a little bit, and he told me that he had really enjoyed how I dressed up for Fathers day. That conversation allowed me to relax a little and for us to enjoy a little SF time.

He is finally, for the first time since d-day, starting to really invest in the M. And I am glad to see that.

Things are calming down for us now. I want to let my guard down with H but, it has been less than 2 weeks since I discovered he was looking at porn again. Even if he starts radical honesty right now, it is still going to take time for me to believe he is sincere.



Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 06/23/11 08:33 PM
We are taking DS and getting away tomorrow. Planning on spending the day together at the beach, and maybe take DS to one of the local attractions there.

H and I watch "someone like you" last night. And there was a line that really bugged me. "If he is not sleeping with you, he is sleeping with someone else."

I told H this morning that it bothered me. And when he asked me why, I told him that I felt lonely and wished he would engage me more for SF. Yes I am asking him for more SF.

He gave me the normal spill, I thought you were tired and did not want to bother you. This frustrated me, because he did not ask me if I was tired, he assumed I was. While I appreciate the sentiment of trying to care for me, I really wish he would talk to me and identify what I need before deciding what I need from him.

H finally asked me what I needed, in order to increase our SF. I told him that verbal foreplay would be nice.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/05/11 12:44 PM
We had a very good week.

Caught DS lying, so I had to sit down with him and try to explain the difference between lying and telling the truth. Of course since he is 2 almost 3, I had to explain it in very simple terms. Good guys versus bad guys. I told him that bad people lie, and asked him if he wanted to be a bad person. So why am I bring up this? H told me that listening to that conversation, it shook him to his core. He realized that more than anything he wanted to set a good example for DS, and that he could not do that if he did not follow the rules either. Maybe he is getting it?

We had a wonderful family day on Saturday. We got to go out to a local pool. All three of us,(H, myself, and DS) had an absolute blast. That was the happiest I have felt in a very long time. I even remember thinking what a beautiful day it was being able to enjoy that time with H.

We also managed to sneak in some extra alone adult time while DS was napping over the weekend.

I admitted this weekend, that I want to let H back into my heart, but I am scared to do so. I am still in full protection mode, and it is so hard to let go of that feeling that I need to protect myself. I hope as time goes on and he proves that he is being honest (which I hope he can) then maybe I will stop feeling this way.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/05/11 01:23 PM
Your recovery just started a couple of months ago; give it time. We're into this for 7 months, and I'm still feeling gun-shy. I believe it when the vets say the recovery period is a minimum of 2 years. It is likely to take that long just to feel safe again in the marriage.

The actions your husband are doing must become habits and then they will become ingrained. Just keep on going, and post here when you need some reassurance. I keep reciting what the vets say about recovery time. My FWH also repeats it to me as a reminder.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/05/11 01:26 PM
51CD30

Sorry, but we are 1.3 years into recovery. frown I found out in March of 2010.

We have had some set backs and trickle truth to contend with.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/05/11 01:39 PM
Eluna, I'm so sorry. Yes, I see the 2010 now. Trickle-truthing makes it worse. It is shattering to discover adultery, but finding out a little truth at a time is terrible blow each time.

From what you are saying, your husband is remorseful and following the MB plan, right?
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/05/11 01:46 PM
He is trying.

We had another set back last month where I discovered him lying to me.

As far as the A, he is still following NC and has done so since D-day. At this point, I feel like he is trying. But he has learn total honesty, and that is a hard thing for him to be that exposed to someone else. Until then though, there is no true moving forward.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/15/11 03:02 PM
Well that was an eye opener.

Since D-day, I have consciously tried to depend on H for emotional support. I figured if I chose to depend on him, then I would have less chance of slipping into a revenge A myself.

So I have consistently laid my emotions out for him. And I have repeatedly been hurt when I have done so as he has not been there for me. But yet I tried again and again.

Finally came to a head. Each time I have brought up that I needed him there, and he was not, he would tell me he did not know how.

Today I explained that it felt like he had no respect for me. He would continue to apologize for the issue, but failed to fix the problem, over and over. That I felt if he had respect for me he would have endeavored to find a solution to the problem.

So today I asked him why he has continued to show this lack of care. He tells me when we moved in together, that he felt I did not have the coping skills to deal with life. So he decided to make sure I developed them by leaving me to deal with situations by myself. And he has continued to do so.


I have willingly given up my personal support system in order to focus 100% of fixing our marriage. Only to find out today, that I am emotionally alone. I now have no support system left and a husband who has emotionally abandoned me and feels like it is ok to continue this path.

I do not want to be in marriage when I am left to deal with any and everything by myself. I do not want to be in a marriage where I am abandoned.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/15/11 03:53 PM
Do I have no support system here as well? Please help.
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/15/11 04:21 PM
EunainNC,

I hear so much disappointment in your statements.
All I can say is I think you need to work on yourself a bit more and really figure out your boundaries because they are right for you...........
You can't make someone else try, you can only conduct yourself the way you want that to be..........if you feel it do, if you don't, then don't ......that is you being who you chose to be..........
I would change who I was be the best woman you can be, make your life important, do what pleases you, if your husband can't stay with you or can't better himself for him or your marriage you can't worry about that.......
I would get that support system back and let your husband know that you need more from him that he is willing to give and that you two need to come up with a plan together to make the marriage work, if not then you must just let each other go and find lives separately.......
You are worth more than feeling the way you do.........
Be who you want to be, act like the person you want to be, be confident in you, if he can't get on board than that is the life he choses for himself, you cannot be responsible for his happiness and commitment in this world...........
you work together with a great plan, slowly changing what is wrong or you work on yourself and make the best life for you.............you cannot just stay stuck hoping that some miracle will make life better for you.......
jessi
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/15/11 07:17 PM
You do have a support system here, and I know that for me personally I really empathize with your pain. So much of what you say really sounds so familiar to me, because it stuff that I have dealt with or am dealing with when it comes to my own FWH.

I wish I could give you a hug IRL, because I know how confusing it is, and how deeply it hurts.

You need your support system, both here and with family and friends. You cant handle this all alone, and it will drive you crazy to try. Dont turn it in to a bashing session of your H, it will damage relationships with them later if they hate him, but they can give you encouragement and a shoulder to lean on.

I agree with what has been said about your boundaries. I am struggling with this issue myself, but I think it's really worth it and brings so much peace. You can check out my thread from the last few days if it's of interest to you.

You cant make him try, but you can choose not to remain with someone who is not trying.

What do you need from him to feel that you are not abandoned? What do you need to feel that he is helping you to deal with things?

Be specific and focus on actions that you think you would like to see.

Are you willing to live in a M with him if he is not willing to brainstorm solutions with you to get this need met?

You cant force him to, and if you have tried your hardest to be the best woman and spouse that you can be and he is not willing to do what it takes to make you feel safe and loved then you go to Plan B. To protect yourself from him, to protect the love you still have for him.

Soon you will have none left and then you have much less of a chance at recovery, because you want recovery anymore.

I am the Queen of not doing Plan B when I should have. I let the hurtful behaviors continue until I would have ripped my H's eyes out and fed them to my cat if I could have gotten my hands on him. I hated him more than I have ever hated anyone.

Dont do what I did, know what you can and cannot live with and love yourself enough not to settle for anything less than that.

Oh if you stop by my thread there are some posts there by HHH, so if you are missing parts it is because you cant see his posts.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/15/11 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by RisingFromAshes
You cant force him to, and if you have tried your hardest to be the best woman and spouse that you can be and he is not willing to do what it takes to make you feel safe and loved then you go to Plan B. To protect yourself from him, to protect the love you still have for him.

Soon you will have none left and then you have much less of a chance at recovery, because you want recovery anymore.


I don't know where I am any longer. I thought D-day was bad, but to find out that I have spent 6 years going up and down through depression, because he felt I needed to learn a lesson. That is just cruelty. And I really do not want to be with someone who could do that to me.

My love for him was already diminishing because I could not feel a connection with him. But to find out it was deliberate on his part, I think that drove the love bank completely into the red.

I asked him to leave. He said no. So now I need to figure out what is best for me and DS. We have a spare bedroom, so I think I clean that up and move in there while I figure out how to get him to leave, or to make other arrangements for DS and myself.

I made a promise to my son that I would not leave him and I meant it. As is he is having melt downs from separation anxiety. I want to try to keep things as calm as possible for his sake, but if we have to leave the only home he has ever known, I will do it.
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/16/11 09:05 PM
Eluna,

I have been busy this weekend helping my mom move after a house fire, but I want you to know that I am reading and I will be back in a few hours to post.

Hang in there, you are not alone.
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/18/11 12:05 AM
Sorry it took me longer than I expected to get some time free to post.

How are you feeling now? Have things calmed down at all between you?

If you are dead set about divorce I don't see any harm in moving into the spare room until one of you is ready to move out.

If you are thinking of doing Plan B with the hope that he can get some counseling etc and possibly recover the M later I think I would stay in the bedroom with your H until you are ready to go dark. Give him a last strong Plan A until you are ready to go, so that he has the best memories possible of you. It may be the incentive that convinces him to seek help or whatever your goal is for Plan B.


I know how hard it is when everything in you is telling you that you just cant handle being in the M anymore, but you really want to stay because of the kids.

If you are not quite set on doing Plan B or D yet and want to give it another try because of your son I am certainly not going to judge you for it.

Whatever your decision just come back and keep posting so you can have people to talk to and help you through.

Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/18/11 06:46 PM
For now I am here. I am hurting a lot on the inside, and have no want to trust H any longer. I feel like I will never be able to trust anything he says again.

He continues to make promises and continues to break them. I just don't want to throw my heart back into it. I am rapidly reaching the point of no return, and truthfully that place scares the begeezs out of me.

Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/18/11 08:54 PM
Can you do something for me? You sound so sad and so defeated, go and do something for yourself. Take a nap, take a bath with bubbles and candles, go for a walk with your son...anything that is calming and relaxing. Take a break and pamper yourself a bit, you need it. Seriously. You cant keep giving and giving and not doing anything to recharge.

After you get done with that I want to you to think very hard about what you need from your H to feel safe and loved in your M.

Try to think in terms of actions...you cant measure things like whether he thinks you can cope. You can see whether he is helping with decision making, domestic support, etc. Thats why you need it to be action based, so you know if he is doing it or not.

What do you need to feel safe? Write out a list of EP's you want to see, or areas that you just feel vulnerable still if you cant think of an EP for it.

What do you need him to do for you to feel loved? What are your needs and how do you want for him to meet them?

Try to think of anything that you need to change about your M for you to feel in love with your H. Counseling for the pornography addiction, or the MB online program, calling the coaching center...think big and set the bar high.

Then come back here and tell me what you need, we can go from there.

You are reaching your breaking point very quickly, so you may want to start quietly getting things in order for Plan B if he is not willing to start doing the things you need for him to do.

I mean it though about taking that break for yourself first! You need and deserve that.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/19/11 12:38 PM
So when I got home last night, I just gave up and crashed. I slept for three hours on the couch, before I got up and went to bed. I am just so emotionally exhausted, I had nothing left.


I found out this morning the he resents me because he no longer has a computer.

~~~Computer Back Story~~~~

His computers were removed on D-day to minimize the chance of contact with OW, also to prevent him from removing evidence should I have wanted to go directly to D.

After a lot of hounding about him wanting his laptop, I had it brought back into the house but hidden from him. I wanted time to adjust to him having a personal computer again. It stayed hidden for three months until I AOed because he was hounding again about wanting a laptop. I finally told him to take the D$% thing and leave me the he!! alone since it was more important than our M apparently. He got upset and smashed the laptop.

After that he had planned to buy a new one. He chose to spend his "laptop" money on other toys like a new lightsaber and guitar. A month or so back he was talking about a new laptop again and finally noticed that I was distant and withdrawn from the conversation. He asked me what was up, and I told him the thought of him getting a new laptop made me queasy since he has not demonstrated an ability follow through on boundaries. So he decided to PoJA, and said he would not consider getting another computer.

So now he tells me he resents me because he does not have a computer.

I told him that the reason he does not have a computer is from his own doing.

He is the one that used it as a mode to sneak around.
He is the one that used it as a way to look at porn without being caught.
He is the one that destroyed his laptop.
He is the one that broke his EPs by using an ipod to download porn.

I did none of those things. What I did do is feel uncomfortable about him having a personal computer. However he is the one that PoJAed, and decided not to buy one.

I told him that I am not to blame for his choices, he is. That he needs to stop blaming me for his behavior and learn to take responsibility for himself.



Was this a DJ too?

Posted By: wulffpack_girl Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/19/11 02:16 PM
Eluna, me, personally, I do not think this was a DJ. You are exactly correct, he needs to own up to his own behavior and realize his actions have consequences. He's proven himself to be untrustworthy and he's not made efforts to become transparent to you.

If he really wanted to demonstrate this, and wanted to be able to have his own computer, then the two of you should brainstorm on how that can happen and you feel safe. Example: a keylogger program that emails reports to you; all passwords; you listed as the "Administrator" on the computer; parental controls to block access to websites that you choose; computer accessible at all times to you, no questions asked.

What it sounds like to me is that he actually didn't POJA, he just decided he would #1 have a temper tantrum and #2 not get a computer so he could later blame you for it.

He needs to grow up and take responsibility for his actions and so far he seems to be all talk and very little action.
Posted By: txnatheart Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/19/11 08:21 PM
Hi ELuna,
It's been a while for me on here, but I read your thread and just wanted to throw out a few items (opinions really). I am by no means a vet, so please take my words with a grain of salt.

*How do you and your H communicate? You H sounds alot like my H in many ways. He was/is a proctector liar. Lied to protect himself from "getting in trouble with me". (He used other excuses like, "I didn't want to upset you", "I knew you'd get mad", etc). I realized at that point that I was never going to get him to talk to me. So we started e-mailing or texting to talk over a problem. It sounds weird, but for us it worked. He was able to write what he felt, without me "getting mad" per se. We now are able to talk more openly about problems, but whenever a really big issue comes up, we text or email, then later on talk it over when we are calm or have reached resolution.

*You sound very much like me in the sense that you get wrapped up in the problems. You need to take a step back. First, your H is trying. Maybe not to the extent that you want, but he does sounds like he is at least trying. And it sounds like he's "going along" with alot of your decisions because he doesn't want to fight or have you leave him. Then of course, he resents you because you "made him" do something he didn't really want to do. Yes, I realize that it's not owning up to his responsibilities and actions. But I think the whole situation points to the possibility that neither of you is getting his needs met. You don't seem to be, but neither does he. My H did alot of the "going along" and I realized that I needed to step back and let him make some of the decisions about our marriage. In some ways I feel like I treated him like a child, so he behaved like one. I needed to make sure that he knew that even though he cheated, he did have a say in the future of our marriage. Do you think your H feels like that? Like he has a say?

*Please don't take offense to this, but no one said you had to drop your emotional support group in order to save your marriage. That really isn't his fault. I think you need to definitely start doing things that will make you feel better. I did not have emotional support for a long time. (And I blamed my H for it since we moved to an area where his family lived). but then I met a girlfriend who shook me up a bit and said that I needed to stop wallowing and figure out what I could do to make myself happy. I started looking for things to do (and inviting H along when appropriate) and everything improved greatly! I realized that depending on my H for everything was not a good thing. And I also realized that by doing that, I was helping my H see me in only one light. He couldn't believe it when I asked him to do things like parasailing and jet skiing. He thought he had me all figured out!

Hope this helps a bit.

-Txnatheart
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/19/11 08:24 PM
I will be honest. As this point I am not comfortable with him having a computer at all, regardless of the EP's put into place.

He has shown me time and again that he has lacks the ability to consistently respect boundaries. He is all for making our son stay in boundaries, but fails to do so himself.


He gave me more lip service about trying to fix things between us, but when I asked him what his plan of action was he did not have one.

I proposed he write a plan of action to recognize and fix issues between us. A contract with deadlines and consequences.

He said he is going to do it, but he is very hesitant about it. I sense he may try to push it off on me rather than doing it himself. But if he is not willing to do the work here, I am not wasting my time doing it for him. I just can't do that any more. I am at the end of my rope.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/19/11 08:36 PM
*Please don't take offense to this, but no one said you had to drop your emotional support group in order to save your marriage. That really isn't his fault.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I dropped my emotional support because a lot of my friends were male. I did this in an effort to prevent myself from sliding down the same road he had just been down. And to protect the shattered remains of my marriage.

As for H being a protective liar, that is no excuse. Everyone is a protective liar when they lie. People lie to prevent themselves from being hurt. People lie to prevent themselves from experiencing the negative reaction to their actions. And it does not help to heal the M, it only shows that they are not trust worthy.

And another reason he needs to get over it. Our son has watched H lie to me and has begun to blatantly lie himself.
Posted By: txnatheart Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/19/11 11:44 PM
ELuna,I definitely see you are at the end of your rope and I'm sending you virtual *hugs*. I understand how painful and frustrating all this is. I guess I would just say, step back and cool down a little before making any big decisions. I think you are getting caught up in trying to control his actions and that's never going to happen. You can only control your own actions. I know you don't want to get hurt again. But at some point your going to have to let go a little and trust. If not, it will kill you to live with this kind of anxiety. (And I really think you need to find a way to talk if you can. I know no e-mail, but texting, letter writing?)

One thought I had regarding having him make a plan. I totally understand why you want him to do it. Playing devil's advocate, though, I wonder what is the incentive for him to do that? I know saving his marriage is one, but what else? Do you think he realizes the benefits that creating a plan will give him? Or does he just think that making the plan will save the marriage, but keep him in this position? I guess where I'm going with this is that you don't trust your H, but it doesn't sound like he trusts you either.

Whatever happens, I am here rooting for you!!

-Txatheart
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/20/11 01:37 PM
Txatheart

Something tells me you have only read a few posts from my thread.

I have opened the way to trust my husband a little. The result, he broke the EPs we had in place. Every time I have started to trust him, he has broken that trust. I appreciate you trying to help, but telling me I need to trust him, when he has done nothing to earn that trust is going to fall on deaf ears.

Someone who lies and cheats is not deserving of trust until they are remorseful and repentant. When they are truly repentant of their actions they will strive to earn forgiveness and trust. He is not there. His actions are still all about him and no one else.

Yes I am setting a very hard line in the sand. I have had enough. It is to the point of [censored] or get off the pot. If fixing our marriage is not worth him making an effort, then why the hell should I continue wasting my life waiting around for him to get a clue?

My number one EN at this point Emotional Support/Emotional Connection.

If my spouse can not fulfill that basic need, then I need to get away from him and find someone who can. I am sick and tired of being utterly alone in my marriage. I am sick of being the one to tackle everything emotionally without help. I am tired of being neglected and abandoned by my husband.
Posted By: txnatheart Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/20/11 02:28 PM
Hi ELuna,
I have read your thread and I do know that your husband has broken your EP's. But you are on here to try to save your marriage, right? And the suggestions I'm giving you are in line with the idea that you are here to make a plan and save your marriage. Only you can decide when enough is enough. I don't know if your husband will ever change, but what I'm trying to say is that you don't either. You can only change yourself.

In an earlier post you said that being a protective liar was no excuse. I agree wholeheartedly. But neither are AO or DJ. Those aren't an excuse either. But we all do those, don't we? So my point is that you asked yourself a very important question. Why should you wait around for him to get a clue? Well what's the answer? Do you want to wait around or not?

I just want you to know that I'm rooting for you to choose your marriage. Which is why I am trying to suggest ideas on how to make it work. And while you might feel abandoned by your H, I am certainly here for support.

-Txnatheart
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/21/11 03:00 PM
I am exhausted and frankly I am completely depressed at the moment. But today I have other things to deal with as DS is sick, and that has left me with an eerie calm.

I am still struggling. H has made a promise to keep clothes picked up for one week. It is a place to start.

I asked him to start small simply because I have found the best place to start learning something new is one day at a time. I feel like if he promises something for the long term, I have no faith that he will be able to do it. But if he promises in the short term, then there is a better chance he will follow through. If he can follow through on boundaries for a week, then I may feel like he may really be trying to change things. If not....

I am not sure how you guys figured out what you needs were. When I took the EN questionnaire, it was not even clear to me what was my number one EN based on the results.

So I have taken the time to look at what I want the most right now in our M. What would make me the happiest. And I realize that what I want more than anything from my husband is emotional support. More so now than ever before.

I always believed that part of any involved relationship was being a support for the other person. Being there to listen when life got the best of you. Being there to offer a hug, a kiss, or just a shoulder to cry on.

This has been missing from our M and this is what I need to be able to move on. It is a tall order, but it is my requirement.




Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/21/11 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
So I have taken the time to look at what I want the most right now in our M. What would make me the happiest. And I realize that what I want more than anything from my husband is emotional support. More so now than ever before.

I always believed that part of any involved relationship was being a support for the other person. Being there to listen when life got the best of you. Being there to offer a hug, a kiss, or just a shoulder to cry on.

This has been missing from our M and this is what I need to be able to move on. It is a tall order, but it is my requirement.

Sounds like your top two ENs are conversation and affection. Most women have those two top needs as well. Affection may displayed and preferred in various ways. There is a questionnaire in Five Steps to Romantic Love in which you can write down exactly how you would like affection from your husband. Same for conversation.

UA time of minimum 15 hours a week is very important. This will give you each the time necessary to meet each others most important emotional needs.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/21/11 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by 51CD30
Sounds like your top two ENs are conversation and affection. Most women have those two top needs as well. Affection may displayed and preferred in various ways. There is a questionnaire in Five Steps to Romantic Love in which you can write down exactly how you would like affection from your husband. Same for conversation.

UA time of minimum 15 hours a week is very important. This will give you each the time necessary to meet each others most important emotional needs.

In the beginning I expressed that I thought my number 1 EN was conversation. And the result was endless conversations about TV, work, our son, ect. The conversations did not open a path to produce an emotional bond between us.

So I tried to explain I wanted more intimate conversation. That of course lead to conversation that surrounded the gutter. And again no path for an emotional bond.

I fell in love with my husband because he was emotionally there for me when I needed someone the most. And at that point I could not even see that I needed someone to be there for me emotionally. So it made it mean even more to me when I realized it.

This is why I am now defining it as emotional support. H seems to have a basic understanding of what I am asking for when I say emotional support. So maybe this will lead to a positive change.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/21/11 07:46 PM
Eluna won't be able to see my post, but others will;

The "small talk" referred to is the same "small talk" that sparked the beginning of relationships, it helps to build the trust and intimacy that leads to intimate conversation about life, love, hopes, dreams, the past, the present, the future.

No conversation is to be dismissed.
Posted By: RisingFromAshes Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/22/11 02:28 AM
Wow I missed quite a bit, hopefully you are still doing ok and remembering to take good care of yourself through all this stress.

I wanted to tell you that you did a good thing by dropping any male friends that you had. That was an excellent thing to do to keep your M safe. Have you throught about trying to replace that support group with some female friends that can support you in trying to save your M? Is there anywhere that you might be able to go to meet some women like that, a church group or a playgroup you could go to with your son? You would be likely to meet other married women there that you could bond with.

I also think that you have the right not be comfortable with your H having a laptop. He needs to earn that trust back. Giving him small ways to do that and build up trust again over time sounds like a good way to let him show you that he is becoming a trustworthy person, as long as you dont let it go too far and return to blind trust without transparency. There is nothing that you can do about him resenting you for it. That is not something you can control. If he brings it up remind him that due to past issues you are not yet enthusiastic about him having a laptop, but that you hope that he continues to earn your trust back so that one day you will be enthusiastic about it. Let him help you brainstorm some things he can do to show you he is trustworthy.

Quote
I proposed he write a plan of action to recognize and fix issues between us. A contract with deadlines and consequences.

It doesnt sound like he is enthusiastic about this project. I really doubt that he is actually going to do it and if he does then he is going to put in as little effort as possible. You already have a plan of action anyway, you have MB. smile

Are the two of you scheduling 20+ hours of UA time a week? I would start with that. Talk to your H and set a time where you will sit down and schedule out when you will have UA time and what you are going to do during that time.

While you are at it fill out the EN and LB questionnaires to evaluate how well you did at filling each other's $LB that week. Do not go over these together as it sounds like things are stressful right now and it could lead to fighting. Just fill them out and exchange them.

Dont worry if you have a hard time figuring out what number the needs are on your list. Even Dr Harley says that the results are often somewhat confusing and contradictory. When my H and I do it we focus and the needs that our spouse says makes them "very unhappy" when they are not met. I dont really think it matters if it is their #1 need or #4, if it makes them "very unhappy" when it is not met then it needs to be met right?

From what you have posted lately I am guessing that Family Commitment, Domestic Support, Affection, Conversation, and Honesty are the top 5 for you (though probably not in that order), but you will figure it out as you go along.

It will also help you to give your H a better idea of HOW you want those needs met. He sounds like he is trying with Conversation but is not talking about the things you want to talk about. Have you told him specifically what kinds of conversational topics actually help you to feel love for him? Or just brought up those topics yourself?

It sounds like your Taker is coming out really strong right now. Your Taker will protect you, and maybe it will help you to figure out what your boundaries are, just remember to keep that balanced with your Giver and protect your H as well. Having a completely out of control Taker will not help your M any more than being just a Giver has done.

*HHH- Small talk may be what starts you down the path to intimate converation, but if a couple never moves further down that path it's unlikely that they will ever get married. Small talk does not fill the $LB of most women and it is perfectly ok if it does not fill Eluna's and she needs more than that. It is also her responsibility to be honest and let him know if he is not meeting her need for Conversation in a way that makes her happy.

Kissing is what starts a couple down the road to SF, but I dont see many men happy in marriages where kissing is the furthest down that road they ever go. At some point you need to move beyond it, and I think Eluna has been trying for a long time to get to more intimate conversation and it is has not happened yet.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/22/11 05:09 AM
Awesome thought process and analogy RFA. I don't disagree.


So, if you were advising a man who was complaining that his W stopped at kissing, how would you advise him to get his need for SF met?

If someone is complaining that they want intimate conversation, and all they are getting is "regular" conversation, how do you advise them, the spouse that is here and posting, to entice their spouse to the next step?
Posted By: wulffpack_girl Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/22/11 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by RisingFromAshes
Small talk may be what starts you down the path to intimate converation, but if a couple never moves further down that path it's unlikely that they will ever get married. Small talk does not fill the $LB of most women and it is perfectly ok if it does not fill Eluna's and she needs more than that. It is also her responsibility to be honest and let him know if he is not meeting her need for Conversation in a way that makes her happy.

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
If someone is complaining that they want intimate conversation, and all they are getting is "regular" conversation, how do you advise them, the spouse that is here and posting, to entice their spouse to the next step?


I can't really give a good example for Eluna of the process in action, although I understand how everything *should* work in theory.

The spouse who is not getting his/her needs met has the responsibility to be RH about it and to explain how they would like that need met. From there, it is the choice of the other spouse as to whether or not to meet that need - i.e., they can POJA ways to meet it.

(That said, that is something not happening in my M (although I hesitate to call what I have a M anymore, but anyway) and RH about my needs is something I struggle with because of my own fears of rejection. When I have explained how I'd like my needs met, my H does not even try to POJA or to meet those needs in ways that speak to me. So no examples from personal experience!)

And then, in theory, when the other spouse (let's say the H) continues to refuse to meet the needs of the other spouse (the W), refuses to POJA, then the W doesn't have permission to refuse to meet the needs of the H - but she does have permission to determine if this is behavior she will accept (not having her need met). If she decides this is unacceptable, then it may be addressed by the Plan A/B/D progression.

If Eluna has tried to communicate how important intimate C is to her, and discussed ways jafo can meet that need (in a discussion free from LBs), and jafo refuses to meet that need, and Eluna is doing all she can to meet jafo's needs and demonstrating her willingness to continue to do so, then Eluna will need to look at the entire picture and decide if his refusal to meet that need is reason to go into Plan B and to eventually D.
Posted By: HurtCobra Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/22/11 01:21 PM
wulffpack girl- It is amazing how close our situations are. It is so hard to get over the hurt I caused my family. I am strong now but have to show it. It is a long road but I hope both of our situations turn out for the best. I appreciate your comments on my topic.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/22/11 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
Originally Posted by RisingFromAshes
Small talk may be what starts you down the path to intimate converation, but if a couple never moves further down that path it's unlikely that they will ever get married. Small talk does not fill the $LB of most women and it is perfectly ok if it does not fill Eluna's and she needs more than that. It is also her responsibility to be honest and let him know if he is not meeting her need for Conversation in a way that makes her happy.
(That said, that is something not happening in my M (although I hesitate to call what I have a M anymore, but anyway) and RH about my needs is something I struggle with because of my own fears of rejection. When I have explained how I'd like my needs met, my H does not even try to POJA or to meet those needs in ways that speak to me. So no examples from personal experience!)


Fear = reluctance or refusal to be RH.

What would it take for you to be RH, what would it take to alleviate your fear?

Don't quote me ladies, Eluna does not care for my thinking.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/22/11 04:33 PM
H and I talked last night a little bit. We talked about talking and realized that part of the problem is the details.

He explained that men tend to conversation in the most efficient manner possible. "You are pretty." "That's nice." "Cars need to be fixed." ect. Short statements of fact, lacking a good deal of detail.

Women on the other hand tend to be more detail oriented.
"You are pretty." brings up the questions of
"What about me do you find attractive? My hair? My eyes? My legs? My boobs?"

"That's nice" makes me ask "What is nice?"

The comments lack specifics and details. And therefore lead to a dead end wall for me. The thought process is not clearly conveyed and leave too much room for interpretation.

For the first time in a long time, H talked to me in my language. It started with him saying "I find you attractive." and I looked at him as said "More details, please."

Then he explained to me that when I was pregnant with our son, he thought I was incredibly beautiful. That although we did not have SF a lot during that time (he had a fear of giving DS a brain injury at the time) that he wanted me even more every time he saw me. That he never even notice the extra weight I put on at the time.

The conversation moved me in such a way, that I found myself highly enthusiatic about SF. It was not bedroom talk, small talk, or regular conversation that got me. It was an emotional contact that was aimed at relieving the insecurity that has arisen from my weight gain during pregnancy.

IE He opened up and shared hid thoughts with me. And those thoughts helped to relieve my fears of rejection based on weight I gained while bearing our son. I honestly thought that he found me physically un-attractive during that time, so hearing his description talking otherwise touched my heart.


Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/22/11 04:35 PM
Found this article of the difference in men and women where conversation rituals are concerned. Interesting read if you are interested.

http://www.analytictech.com/mb119/convritual.htm
Posted By: wulffpack_girl Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/22/11 05:31 PM
Eluna, the convo you and jafo had last night sounds like a definite step in the right direction! hurray Hopefully he too sees how his meeting that need of yours (C) helped you to enthusiastically meet a need of his (SF). Awesome!

I'll definitely check out that article you posted.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 07/26/11 12:09 AM
Well this weekend was a bust as far as convo went. Really had no real UA time on Sunday. Why? Because H had a kidney stone attack and spent the entire day in physical agony. Finally around midnight he consented to going to the hospital to get something to relieve the pain.

I was not there to take care of him the way I wanted to be, because I was back and forth between him and DS.

Currently we are all exhausted from lack of sleep and stress. Hoping we get rest tonight together.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/01/11 11:05 PM
H tried to step up some this weekend. Got a letter about our mailbox garden needing some maintenance on Saturday. The temperature was about 102 degrees at the time.

H assured me that he would take care of it when it cooled off, knowing that I would want to get it done immediately. I refused to allow him to do it. I realized I did not trust he would actually get around to doing it.

During the time this happened, I had been waiting 3 weeks for H to finish power washing the house.


I do not mind a day or so of procrastination, as things happen and you do not always feel like doing the small things.

To H these are little annoyances that can be done whenever. He will tell me that he will take care of something on the honey-do list one week, two months later it will be partially done but not complete. These are little things, but if he can not do these small things, how can I believe that he will do the big things?

Can he not see that even these small things are ways to build trust, or show me that he is going to do the things he says? Am I wrong in feeling like these small things are important to prove he will do what he says?
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/04/11 01:11 PM
Right now it seems as if H is trying to work on things. I got home about an hour late last night, after running errands. When I got there H came out to meet me, I noticed he was wearing gloves so I asked what was up. Turns out he had taken the dryer apart and had been cleaning out the lint trap (not the lint filter).

He had decided to do this as it was something I had mentioned several months back needed to be done. I don't even remember talking about that, except in passing.

H seems to be trying to work on keeping his word on the small stuff right now. I am hesitant to believe much though, because in the past he has said he would do something and then stop after a few weeks.

I want to believe that he is changing. But there is so much history of him quitting after a small amount of time, that I am terrified it is the same WH trying to pull a fast one on me.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/04/11 03:09 PM
.....he had taken the dryer apart and had been cleaning out the lint trap...decided to do this as it was something I had mentioned several months back needed to be done

Ok, all to the good, right?

I am hesitant to believe much...he has said he would do something and then stop after a few weeks...there is so much history of him quitting after a small amount of time,

Look, we can train gerbils to solve quadratic equations with the right reward system, and you're not sure how to encourage your husband's efforts in these matters? Seriously, did you thank him? Did you offer to help him put away the tools, or clean up the work area? Did you give him a cup of coffee, or a cool drink?

Whatever you could have done would probably have taken less time and trouble than writing about it here. Do that, on a consistent basis, and he'll probably not fade into bad habits so readily.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/04/11 03:53 PM
*speaking to the air*

If these "little annoyances" are coming in the form of Selfish Demands, are being bolstered by Selfish Demands and Disrespectful Judgements... the house will get pressure washed at the cost of romantic love in the marriage.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/04/11 05:45 PM
Ok I think I may have given the wrong impression here. I am glad H is stepping up on the household stuff, but that is not the issue.

My biggest issue is not the housework. I could care less if I do it or he does. My issue is H keeping his word and doing what he says he will do. If H says he will do something this weekend, and he puts it off for three weeks, then it hurts because he did not keep his word. And for me that equates to lying.

Yes, I have told him this. The housework is only an annoyance, because I feel like he is lying to me when he fails to do what he says he will do.

I have thanked him for the things he has done. My hesitation has nothing at all to do with "will he clean the house, or wash the house, ect." It has to do with, is this another thing he will lie to me about.

If H can not keep his word with small stuff, how is he ever going to be able to earn my trust back? How does one trust a wayward who can not keep their word until they wayward begins keeping their word in everything?


Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/05/11 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
*speaking to the air*

If these "little annoyances" are coming in the form of Selfish Demands, are being bolstered by Selfish Demands and Disrespectful Judgements... the house will get pressure washed at the cost of romantic love in the marriage.

HHH,

You seem to have a thing for DJ. The problem is you tend to come into my thread being judgmental.

In my thread post that you referenced, I said nothing to demand my husband do anything. I did not ask him to do anything. I told him I was going to take care of the issue.

HHH, you are also continuing to show a lack of respect by purposefully ignoring my request to not post in my thread any further.

I don't know or care, if you are trying to project your own issues here. What I do know, is that during my initial dealings with you, I lost respect for you and your opinion. And your continued DJ in my thread has re-enforced my opinion of your posts.

So honestly, why in the world would I bother to listen to someone whom I have not connection or respect for? Especially when they are showing me the exact behavior they are accusing me of?


Posted By: curious53 Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/05/11 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
*speaking to the air*

If these "little annoyances" are coming in the form of Selfish Demands, are being bolstered by Selfish Demands and Disrespectful Judgements... the house will get pressure washed at the cost of romantic love in the marriage.

HHH,

You seem to have a thing for DJ. The problem is you tend to come into my thread being judgmental.

In my thread post that you referenced, I said nothing to demand my husband do anything. I did not ask him to do anything. I told him I was going to take care of the issue.

HHH, you are also continuing to show a lack of respect by purposefully ignoring my request to not post in my thread any further.

I don't know or care, if you are trying to project your own issues here. What I do know, is that during my initial dealings with you, I lost respect for you and your opinion. And your continued DJ in my thread has re-enforced my opinion of your posts.

So honestly, why in the world would I bother to listen to someone whom I have not connection or respect for? Especially when they are showing me the exact behavior they are accusing me of?

I thought you had HHH on ignore? Spelling out to someone how little their opinion means to you is NOT the same thing as ignoring them. Ignoring is not reading, not responding. Especially the not responding part.

It's clear that HHH's posts really get under your skin (your irritation really comes through in your posts to HHH). Have you asked yourself why it bothers you so much that an anonymous internet stranger may have totally misunderstood you and your situation?
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/05/11 01:58 PM
My initial confrontation with HHH pissed me off. It left me feeling that there was no way to fix my marriage.

His posts came across telling me that by asking my husband to do the things that made me happy, I was being selfish and disrespectful. By asking my husband to be honest with me and keep his word, I was being judgmental and selfish.

I felt like I was being told that there was no way to fix my marriage and I should just shut up and go away.

Yesterday was the first post of his I read, since I put him on ignore. Again he brought up the same opinion. So I went back and re-read what I wrote. I said nothing about telling my husband what to do. Only telling him what I was going to do.

After my initial dealing with HHH, I almost went a head a filed for divorce. Why, because thanks to his posts, I felt no hope of recovery. I felt he was telling me to sit back and take however H wanted to act otherwise I was demonstrating SD and DJ. His post yesterday said the same thing to me. I don't like being told to give up on my marriage.

Posts like that are not helpful. They do not give any real advice to fixing a situation. They only accuse. I am here asking for help to fix thing in our marriage. His posts are not helpful, they are destructive for me and H.


Anymore questions?

And yes I know I have not changed my sig away from what it currently says.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/05/11 02:19 PM
How does one trust a wayward who can not keep their word until the wayward begins keeping their word in everything?

Slowly. Gradually.

You went from a marriage with problems, and immediately want to proceed to the perfect union, with 100% commitment to every supposed agreement........NOW!

How about looking for incremental improvements, noting them overtly; watching for failures, addressing them jointly; and fully encouraging both partners to understand that POJA does not mean that everything you want, he should agree to, the way men have been trained to do to avoid conflict. (Yeah, the contrapositive happens as well, but that is outside this discussion, right?)

And, gently, I would point out that if, instead of being pleased when hubby does "come through", you are investing emotional effort in worrying about when will be the next time he fails,......well, you will likely never be content, nor satisfied with his achievements.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/05/11 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
How does one trust a wayward who can not keep their word until the wayward begins keeping their word in everything?

Slowly. Gradually.

You went from a marriage with problems, and immediately want to proceed to the perfect union, with 100% commitment to every supposed agreement........NOW!

How about looking for incremental improvements, noting them overtly; watching for failures, addressing them jointly; and fully encouraging both partners to understand that POJA does not mean that everything you want, he should agree to, the way men have been trained to do to avoid conflict. (Yeah, the contrapositive happens as well, but that is outside this discussion, right?)

And, gently, I would point out that if, instead of being pleased when hubby does "come through", you are investing emotional effort in worrying about when will be the next time he fails,......well, you will likely never be content, nor satisfied with his achievements.

I am not expecting him to do everything right now, although I must admit my text does sound that way.

What I am asking of H right now is this.
1. If YOU say you are going to do something, go ahead and get it done. Don't volunteer to do something, where you are not ready or willing to do. (Unless it is something like a "can you help me in this moment" task, I no longer really ask H to do anything around the house, yard, ect.)

2. (This is the exception) Come up with an action plan to begin earning my trust back. Set down a list of personal Honey-dos, things H is willing to do himself for one week. Show me the list, so I know what I am looking for. Then do it.


I am watching for success, and for failure. But I am only asking for one week at a time right now. I am not asking for anything beyond that week.

I guess I figure if H has a smaller time frame to worry about, then it will be easier for him to re-train himself in how to keep his word to me.

I want more than anything to be able to trust H. I know I will never be able to trust him 100% again, but I would like to be able to trust that when he says he is going to go to the store, that is where he is going.

And while, to my knowledge, he has been going only to the places he says. I want to be able to believe that without a question in the back of my mind every time. To me his in-ability to keep his word on the small things is a symptom of the bigger issue. By watching for improvements in H keeping his word on the small things, I am watching to see if the bigger issue with honesty is beginning to resolve.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/10/11 08:12 PM
H asked me to go with him to his IC. The IC had requested my presence to better understand our dynamic and how I view H's behaviors. He wanted to see both sides of the story.

This was H's second appointment with the IC since the porn re-lapse. During the first appointment H said he forgot to mention that he had a relapse. This time H told him that he had a relapse. And we did discuss it. The IC asked H to make an agreement with me, that if he should relapse again, he will tell me within 24 hours. I felt very comfortable with that.

The IC is trying to help H create better communication and work lack of openness and honesty. The IC has asked that H and I both return next week.

Posted By: wulffpack_girl Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/13/11 02:46 PM
Eluna, sounds like the IC is a positive development.

I think - even thought I am the FWS - I can understand what you mean about looking for jafo's consistency with the smaller things. Successful recovery is all about consistency in actions. You can't believe change is permanent until it's demonstrated consistently. And if you say you need something, or ask jafo to do something, he should follow through. Heck, he should jump on that MOFO and get it done. The onus is on him to prove that he has changed/is capable of change/is WILLING to change.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Recovery take 1 - 08/16/11 12:45 AM
First section of the 8/15/11 broadcast would be applicable to the "honey-do list" aspect of this recovery.
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 05/26/12 09:13 PM
Hello all,

I know it has been a while. I thought I would drop in for an update.

The IC fell through. We scheduled to return twice after the last post. The IC always lost our appointment. Seriously, he forgot we were coming. I gave up on IC at that point.

DH and I are still together. V-day was amazing. But since then things have gotten rocky. Mainly triggers for me; seeing several couples that I thought were strong falling apart. Also one of his HS friends posted on Facebook asking if he was planning on attending their upcoming 20 year reunion. He replied that he was not. Mainly not going because POSOW may be there.

Speaking of.. I found out two months ago that she has moved out of our area. She is in a town about an hour away. Damn that was a relief to find out!

As for me, I am still healing. Still have good days, and bad days. I did find out some health news back in February, and in a strange way it has helped me accept and forgive more of the A.

The A began shortly after the birth of our son. So when I was always tired, I just chalked it up to being a new mom. I was always tired and had little energy for anything other than DS (This is a big part of where I lost DH. DH thought my tiredness was equal to avoiding him because I was not interested in him any longer).

My symptoms got worse after D-day. I figured at that time, I was suffering from depression, and that with caring for a toddler was just taking too much out of me. Went to the DR, and after a triglycerides, cholesterol test, I was diagnosed with metabolic syndrome and told to drop the carbs and some weight.

After three months on a low carb, I was told I was cured. But the tiredness, while it had slowed was getting worse. This winter it had gotten so bad, and I was a pure B@#$% because I was so tired, that I went back to the DR looking for answers. I had begun having trouble sleeping, waking for days at a time with dark circles under my eye, barely able to function. Sometimes not even able to function. I was living in a brain fog (not the A fog) and had trouble putting two thoughts together.

So I went back to the DR. and found out that I have a genetic B-12 anemia. There is no telling exactly when it began, but tracing my symptoms, I would suspect that my pregnancy triggered it.

Well now I am on the mend, although I will have to take b-12 shots for the rest of my life. But I actually have energy. And a brighter outlook than I have for years. DH actually told me that I am acting like the women he fell in love with again. And he has been there with me every step of the way.

So how did it help me deal with the A? I realized that since this anemia probably began before the A, I was sick during it. And the POSOW was not able to steal a man from a sick woman. That realization has helped me place her into the junk pile where POSOW belongs, rather than the competition pile where I had been viewing her.

Slowly, but surely life is getting better. And I am mending, from both the A and the anemia.
Posted By: armymama Re: Recovery take 1 - 05/27/12 02:48 PM
Eula,

Thanks for stopping by and giving the update. I am glad you found what was wrong medically and are getting better.

Do you and your H follow MB principles - UA time, avoiding lovebusters, meeting each other's most important ENs?


AM
Posted By: ElunaInNC Re: Recovery take 1 - 05/27/12 06:17 PM
Armymama,

We were for a while after D-day, but as the exhaustion got worse that became harder. I would literally get home for work and struggle to stay awake. Normally I was knocked out before our son even went to bed, sometimes as early as 6pm in the evening. frown It sucked!

I had felt horrible the last several months before my Dx that I was letting H down. I spent a lot of time crying because I was so scared this would break us.

Since I began taking my shots, it is getting easier. I have some energy and we are working as a team to get life back on track. Slowly we are getting back on the wagon with MB. In fact last week we began discussions again as to what ENs need the most work right now.
Posted By: armymama Re: Recovery take 1 - 05/27/12 06:57 PM
Eluna,

Wow, glad you are getting better. For me, depression made me additionally tired. And this past winter was a miserable one. It was either raining or zero outside.

I think one of THE absolute best things to do is to sit down for a half hour or so once a week and really plan out UA time. Plan 15-20 hours of fun time together. In many cases, that can meet the four top critical emotional needs - affection, conversation, recreation and sexual fulfillment. I think it was this week on the radio show when Dr. Harley said it is good when all four needs are met in the same time block of UA. When you do this, it doesn't feel like work (as long as there is no lovebusting going on).

AM
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