just found out a week ago about my spouses affair. Got online and came across this site and has been very helpful in the past week. i printed the Q & A sections about How to Survive Infidelity for both of us to read (and he also thought it was good to read and interesting/helpful) and would like to look into the programs, which one would you suggest as a start? I am still very raw from the news. I would also like any advice about how to get past the note that i received describing. It is eating me up.

Welcome to MB, chickadee. I am sorry for what has happened in your marriage.

Many people here will recommend the online programme to you, because with that, you do a course and then get follow-up coaching for as long as you need it; years, indeed. The follow up coaching includes posting questions directly to Dr Harley, the founder of the MB programme, which he answers on the private forum on this site.

If you go for telephone coaching it will be with either Dr Harley's son or daughter. You cannot coach directly with Dr Harley himself. People who have used the telephone coaching centre speak very highly of Steve Harley and Dr Jennifer Harley Chalmers.

However, while you are deciding about programmes, why not tell us more about your marriage and the affair?

How long have you been married? How old are you both? Children? Ages? When did the affair start, how long did it last and how was it conducted (e.g. were they working together, or neighbours, or did they meet on Facebook)? What steps have been taken to end the affair and cut off contact completely? Do they still work together/ live near each other/ attend the same church/ have the Facebook accounts?

If your H does not cut off all avenues for contact, and if your H does not prove to you that these are closed, then the affair will only continue in secret. It is desperately important for you and the kids that this does not happen, chickadee.

Hi chickadee, welcome to Marriage Builders.

Has your husband ended all contact with the OW? Is the OW married, and if so, has her husband been informed?

Check out this link: How to Survive Infidelity

Chickdee1,

Welcome to MB but sorry you find yourself here.

My FWH and I started out with Steve and are now going to the online program. The reason we did this was to help with the healing process after the affair. It took Steve to help my FWH to understand that his A does affect everything in our life. My FWH felt like the A shouldn't affect his friendships or change his behavior. Also Steve helped him understand why he had the A.

So I guess what I am saying is just because you start with one doesn't mean you can't change once you both feel comfortable with changing.

Hope this helps.

thank you SugarCane.

married over 16 years, together longer. we are in our early 40's, no kids together. apparently it began in the summer, and it was on and off. from what i am getting there is no emotional attachement just more sex. met at a bar while with work friends. we do not live that close thank god, and i dont know her. no FB account on his side. calls and texts are blocked though a downloaded app. but that is not stopping her. I am a bix anxious about the lover scorned. he tried to brake it off a few times but there were treats- and one was put into action- the note. the deatils were horrendous. called a threapist immediatly and have gone 2x, it has been helpful for me. he alos has dne the same. he looked at it as a "relief". I hope i am giving enough - it hard to type this out.

How much do the programs run. I am glad i asked- i would have gone for just the books.

more questions more thoughts are very welcome

Hi chickadee.


What specifically did your husband do to end the affair?

Dr. Harley, founder of Marriage Builders, recommends sending a no contact letter to the affair partner.

he said he tried to end the affair. he told her many diffrent lies about moving and other things... what ended it was a note sent by the woman to me (not good with the letters yet OW, BW, FWH.- dont know the lingo well- sorry)

Also excuse the misspellings- my hand are shaking.

She was divorced.

I am a bit cautious to write things as she may be stakling.

I did see the info about sending a letter, that seems difficult when i dont want to stir the pot and cause any crazed reaction.

chickadee, do you have kids with other people, from previous marriages?

The other bits I underlined above are bad news, and I don't think you have got to the bottom of this affair yet. I think I have a great sensitivity for affairs that sound like my H's. He and OW hooked up in a bar, but they had been flirting through work for a long time before that. They snogged in the bar then arranged to meet in his hotel the next time he was visiting her country. I found out about it after a mere 6 weeks and only perhaps 3 meetings, but it developed into a 4-year affair that kept getting buried every time I found a new piece of the puzzle. As it was a travelling, workplace affair (he travelled monthly from London to Brussels) it was easy to hide from me.

A hook-up in a bar that was on and off is unlikely to have developed into something so serious that she issued threats and will not give up, unless OW was bonkers and unstable. That is unlikely. The likelihood is that this developed quickly into your H telling OW that he loved her and wanted to leave his marriage. He has made promises to this woman and she nows feels that he is reneging on them, and THAT is why she is not giving up.

There is a lot that your H is not telling you about this affair.

I don't say the above to make you think your H really does love her and really will leave you, because if he had wanted to do leave he simply would have done so by now. My H said those things to his OW, and when I read them in texts and emails it took me a long time put things into perspective. His playing both of us was evidence of what he really wanted; to have both his happy marriage AND his affair, with all its excitement. The same is probably true for your H.

Please slow down and tell me in greater detail about what you wrote above.

How did you find out about the affair? It sounds as if OW wrote you a letter.

Have you any real evidence that it started last summer? It is surprisingly easy to find evidence of what went on if you gain access to your H's email account. It is quite likely that an email was sent setting up their first meeting. If not, their emails will tell you more about the affair in general.

Your H is trying to protect himself from your hurt and fury by lying, or not answering fully, chickadee. If you don't get to the truth you will find yourself on the receiving end of a false recovery, where he simply buries the affair further from you and continues with his secret second life.

What did the letter from her say? What were the details that "were horrendous"?

What is she still doing to get through to him?

What does she want from him now? Is she asking him to leave you?

Is she married, with kids?

I agree with SugarCane that it's likely there's much, much more to the story you don't know yet.

Many of us have had the misfortune of learning that cheaters lie, lie, lie, and you can't really believe anything that comes out of their mouths.

Like clockwork, almost all adulterers deny an affair at first, even when confronted with overpowering evidence. Then they typically move on to revealing only bits and pieces of the story, which is called trickle truth.

Very often the adulterer admits to an emotional affair when it is really a physical affair, and men are more apt to say it was "just sex" when there's more to the story.

A polygraph should be considered to get the full truth. It's also common for the adulterer to give their word that contact with the affair partner has ended even though there's still contact.

Just remember that cheaters lie -- it's what they do. Don't listen to what your cheating spouse is telling you; instead, follow the proven plan.

The only way she could be stalking you here is if she and your H are in contact and he has told her about your discovering MB. I can't stress enough how likely it is that they are still in contact and he is talking to her daily about your marriage.

Crickey, chicakdee, this is my life you're living!

Think about the logic of not stirring the pot and causing any crazed reaction. It is the same logic that my H used to me, BTW, and I bought it fully. He actually justified talking to her each day from work because she had threatened suicide. He didn't think she would kill herself but she might do a 'cry for help", dramatic, cosmetic job and if she did, her H would find out. That would be big trouble for him not just because her H would rearrange my H's internal organs, but also because my H was having sex with a client from work, and they could sack him.

I BOUGHT that cobblers and had only myself to blame when it led them back into bed, with my tacit approval, many times more.

What else are you doing but approving this affair, when you allow her blackmail to stop you from taking decisive action to end it?

You are saying: "If we send that NC letter she might go bat crazy on us, so we won't send it and I'll allow her to keep their contact going". You are ALLOWING her to have an affair with your H.

I know how you're feeling, chickadee, with the shaking hands etc. At your stage I couldn't get out of the bathroom long enough to have posted on a website. Please just slow down and give us more details.

I am going to recommend that you send an email to the moderators here telling them that I asked you to do so. There is some information that you need them to send you. I will click the notify button to ask them to send that information. Please click "notify" yourself, and ask them for this information.

Thanks, Delta.

This is alot to digest.... I clicked notify- what happens now.

i would like to respond in greater deatil but wont until notified. i also should start to do some work, so please let me know an will responsed as soon as i can. thanks

Done.

hi CD1. i am sorry you find yourself here. i know that feeling of your hands shaking, trying to make sense of all of this. you are not alone. take solace in that and in the fact that we are all emotionally and intellectually invested in helping you. these sort of crises brings out people's humanity.

you could certainly ask the moderators to move your thread if need be. click on the link that says "notify." why do you think that the OW may be stalking on this forum? who would have told her? your H? think about that. and btw, your H is doing the trickle truth with you. he realizes that he eff'd up big time and is afraid to tell you what really went down, the things he said, the things she said, the things she did, etc. he fears that if he does so you will leave him. he is afraid of losing you. he probably did it more for the sex than anything else, and eventually said ILY bc that is what you do when someone says it to you like the OW probably did to him. you're a woman so a big no no is "ILY." he probably did say it as Sugar Cane alluded to. for guys, it's the idea of another man having sex with our woman. do NOT believe your H. count your blessings that he appears to be remorseful bc try dealing w/ a crazy WW w/ whom you have 5 kids who had an A w/ a father of 4, and it's MY fault it all went down.

do you have any pet rabbits?

do i just find the link on the main page?

no. look at the bottom of your post. see your name on the left upper corner. well look down towards the right lower corner. it sits next to: reply, quote, quick reply, quick quote, notify, email post. the last one can be helpful sometimes for really good posts whose words reasonate in your mind. good luck. see you soon?

i know what it feels like to come here and just want to cry or scream or whine or rage. this is a safe place or should be.

chickadee,

Your WH sounds a lot like mine at this stage. He thought more lies was the way to fix the lies. It is likely that your WH (wayward husband) did not tell OW any of these things.

Also, do not believe anything that OW tells you. My OW looked me in the eye several times and told me there would be no more contact. LIE

Try to stay calm and do not show your hand. Do not reveal your sources. This is a fight and you must fight wisely.

Let the vets guide you, read the material, ask questions. You will make it through this.

***chickadee1, please check the email account you used when you registered on MB for a message from the moderating staff.***

ok this took a bit, and this doesnt let me jum back and forth to adress things- so i cut and pasted in word.


thank you Sugar Cane, Delta oaktree and savmymarr. all good posts that i will reread. just some comments on past threads are here.


There is a lot that your H is not telling you about this affair.- I agree there probably is.

His playing both of us was evidence of what he really wanted; to have both his happy marriage AND his affair, with all its excitement. The same is probably true for your H.- Agree!

How did you find out about the affair? It sounds as if OW wrote you a letter.- yes she did.

Have you any real evidence that it started last summer?- good question... I guess nothing I have is truthful at this point.

Your H is trying to protect himself from your hurt and fury by lying, or not answering fully,- I also agree.

What did the letter from her say? What were the details that "were horrendous"?- every detail and txts and photos,

What is she still doing to get through to him?- she tries to txt and call but the phones are blocked.

Is she married, with kids? Div, w/ kids


Onto the next: got the email with the other forums to look at, I actually am quite skilled in these areas and already have some info.
Let me ask you all, it is what it is, he cheated. Why do I need to torture myself with all of the info. The note I received was bad enough, even if she is a bit off- there is truth to it. Bottom line is for him to fess up everything or get out. If I have to keep spying in order to catch him, that�s not the way to live.

which is called trickle truth.- love this!
She probably isn�t stalking me here, but if all of a sudden she was unable to reach him bc of the blocks � you don�t know how she would react. The tone of the note indicates a frenetic tone. but i dont give her that much credit- she would look beyond herself to come to a site like this.

Another question- if you were her, why would you send a note to the wife? Well, I can guess..
1. she wanted out 2. shes a bit off 3. wanted to hurt him (bc-he said no more).
Any thoughts?

chickadee,

The reason I am recommending that you spy on your H is so that you can find out whether their contact is continuing. Isn't that obvious? I am not suggesting that you torture yourself with the information for the sake of it. I'm suggesting that you find out vital things, such as who she is, for one. How can you possibly protect yourself from her attacking your marriage if you do not know who she is? What if she is your next-door neighbour, or your husband's boss? How could you affair-proof your marriage if you don't know what you are protecting it against?

As to whether spying is a way to live:

Do you not want to find out whether the affair is continuing, or becomes active again soon? Don't you want to know the truth about whom your H is sleeping with? If you'd rather not know, then I won't urge you to find out. I don't choose to be married to someone in an affair, but you have the right to choose your way of life.

OW probably wrote to you hoping that you would leave H. My H's OW sent text messages for me to intercept for that reason. She admitted that to me. If you look at the forum where unmarried OWs post, you will see that many of them try to break up their married man's affair by exposuring to his wife.

SugarCane

i do agree- i guess i am asking how long do i spy? i dont want to be doing that forever. I do know her name and town, which is not next town over thank god. I am a spy by nature and i know how i can get (not crazy-just inquistive), i purposefully have not behaved in a manner that i would regret.

I also dont choose to be married to a cheater, but at what point is the obsessiveness about his actions unheathly for me. I would rather say good bye.

OW probably wrote to you hoping that you would leave H- duh, thats a very good point. i am not that manipulitive

I dont think i can read that site yet i would throw up. Who writes on that? people who are in recovery or what.

thanks for all of your comments- its always good to see different sides to things.

Chickadee,

I'm a FWW. I encourage my BH to "spy" on me. And will continue to do so. I know you say you don't want to do that forever, but it's how you keep your marriage safe.

I do see your point about not wanting to live with spying and suspicion forever, but you are far from the point where you should worry that spying is becoming "unhealthy" or obsessive.

You have only just discovered this affair (is that right?) and it seems to have reached quite a level, if OW is deeply upset, threatening certain acts and refusing mutually to end the affair. You discovered the affair in full steam, long before it began to die any kind of death through boredom. The point I have been trying to make it that is is very likely still continuing, and so you must spy to find out where you stand.

You can think about when to stop spying when the affair is many months dead and your marriage seems firmly on the road to recovery.

The site I was talking about is nothing to do with MB. It is a site for "other women". Don't go there; it will be bad for your health. It is most certainly NOT frequented by people in recovery; they are "other women" (and a few "other men") who are either active in their affairs, and celebrating the snatched moments they spend with their married men, or they have been humped and dumped, and they are there commiserating with each other.

yes brand new! like a virgin, ha!

he says he is done with it and had not contacted her ( as i know) , but she keeps trying to reach out, love the call blocker! But i see your point. I have checked all the posible communication sources that i can, but i cannot check his work...

" You can think about when to stop spying when the affair is many months dead and your marriage seems firmly on the road to recovery."= ok thats fair, just hate having to be the person, i worked at not becoming (the obsessive wife)


oh gosh, i wont be visitng anytime soon. thats terrible.

I am having a tough time with all of the abbreviations...

Read here.

thanks for all advice, have not been able to get onto site for a day.. took some of your advice. call blocker works great now, but she is trying hard to reach him, he has had no communication that i know of. and i have checked, i sent the letter he wrote today so lets see it the harrassment continues. then i can continue with grief and all of the rest of the typical feelings.


little bit of the anxiety has subsided for today.

waiting for the rabbit though.....

btw- the night that i found out i made him call his family and tell them. now they are rallying behind him. thoughts? blood i thicker than water i guess. was that the best idea, in the heat of the moment, made me feel better

chickadee1 - My WW's family is largely standing behind her. So, be prepared for that. Hopefully there'll be one or two family members that will stand up for you and for what's right. Rely on your support network to get you through, along with this board. There are a lot great people here.

what i cant believe is that they are also female and he was wrong, they need to grow some balls and believe if it happened to them they would want the troops to rally around them. amazing to me. is it that they want to show support or they like the drama, since it not theirs.

was it a mistake that i made him call them? not that i think i care but the its like a feeding frenzy thats annoying. i really dont have any family left (many deaths in 2009) so it bothersome, but lots of friends!

chickadee1 - you're attempting to apply logic to an inherently illogical situation (in my best Mr. Spock voice). I would only confide the deepest, darkest details and thoughts to a couple of people. I would also suggest that they be non-relatives. That way, if you reconcile, the awkward moments at family functions are minimized. I'm about one month out from exposure and it's been a tough road. My WW is very strong willed and stubborn, but others that started around the same time have had more success. Hang on, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

love that! i am logical to a fault i guess. i have only told my closest friends thought i made him fess up to his family, i wasnt going to let them think he was mr wonderful forever. i am lucky he is not pushing back at all, hes happy he got caught, or as he says relieved that is over (????). still going to be hard. the anxiety is the worst part. having our first session together this satruday. i have been 3 times in what 10 days, and never before that.


d day 2/23/11

Were you with him when he told his family? Did you personally hear what he said to them?

yes i was with him, thought that was best....

Look at it this way: your H has just been caught getting high on heroin. He is relieved that he has been exposed, because the drug is too powerful for him to stop on his own. You must take extraordinary efforts to get him out of his drug-induced fog, so that he is lucid enough to start recovery.

Keeping track of him right now is a task that may not be pleasant, but it is what he needs from you, believe it or not. He will go through withdrawals and he will lie to get his next fix. It is universal in A's. Help him by monitoring him.

hey! i am back- lots of talking and counseling going on. just was reading the post about "HE is agreeing to everything... what does it mean?" sound like my situation very much. things are going ok, installed all of the keyloggers have all the blocks.... my problem is how do you get over the horrible details described in the note, this was something that was sone to obvissously make me upset and leave, but the is truth to it and i am having a hard time getting past it. i have told him that and he can understand why. but i cannot get it out of my min.

ok this thing need spell checker!

this was something that was done to obvisously make me upset and leave, but the is truth to it and i am having a hard time getting past it. i have told him that and he can understand why. but i cannot get it out of my mind. sorry for the typos

chickadee1 - your emotions are understandably raw. Please allow yourself some time, before making any important decisions.

chickadee1, this is still your best "port of refuge." Things are new, raw, hurting and uncertain. You (and your husband) are not prepared to deal with things logically and reasonably. So do as you have just done -- come here and vent, scream, whine, complain, whimper or whatever you need as an outlet.

When my (now ex-)wife was coming in and out of the house, moving things out, phoning the OM, smoking up a storm, and behaving like a space alien, I was on this board posting minute-by-minute updates. I had no support system, and I also had no idea what was happening.

The people here nurtured me, tutored me, and (virtually) hugged me during the whole time. Marriage Builders was my lifeline and my lifesaver.

When the worst was over, the people here still guided me, steered me to sanity and health. My gratitude is why I'm still here; to try to "pay it forward," if you will.

For the time being, let Marriage Builders be the "adult" and you just be the "child." Bit by bit, things will seep in, and you'll find yourself growing and recovering. I promise!

What truth is in the note?

You won't get it out of your head for a very long time, sorry. It will get easier as time goes on. So, since your husband is willing to go to counseling, would he be willing to speak to on the MB coaches? There is a phone number on the site for MB coaching. That's a QUICK way to get started on true recovery.

What is your WH doing to put extraordinary precautions into place?

There is a narrow path to recovery.
You should read this link.

I do appreciate all that i am learning here! It has been a bit of an escape for me. I definately think he would speak to the coaches, i will look for the link and ask him, he has been eager to read more things. and is finding everything insightful.

the letter described intimate details of their escapades in graphic detail. i asked if it was true and he said yes.

I did read that Q & A that you linked above. so did he- this was the one part we both made note of "and couple has a window of opportunity to fix what was wrong in a way that can make their marriage better than it ever was. But one of the biggest obstacles to such a recovery is the emotional reactions left over from the affair."

this is an opportunity for both of us i agree, its just the note that sets me into a tizzy.

Hi Chick,

Not an MB vet but I would make a copy of the note and put it away and resolve never to look at it again. (But you might need the evidence one day)

Then make some space in your day, write down every vile nasty thing you wish to say to her, and I know there are lots of them, and then take the two letters and burn them. Take the ashes and release them into running water, or down the sink if you have to but a river or stream is better. Now they are gone, every time you empty the drain, bath, sink whatever, picture her sad tiny face going down there with the dirty water.

Once you have done the burning and sending away, do something lovely for yourself. It's a small ceremony that frees the emotions and replaces them with the memory of something lovely.

Hope that helps!

Blessings

Tanam, this is good!

My DH and I did something similar after we were in recovery for awhile. We took every photo, letter, receipt, etc. and burned them in a BBQ grill on our patio. My husband (the FWH) said it was how we were going to rebuild our marriage from the ashes. It was a defining moment in our recovery.

tanam- thank you
have a copy hidden, i like your idea.

just disappointed again... I am the giver. i dont think he is making the effort that i would like him to. I want him to agressively and excitedly work on fixing this. i am and i was not the wrong dooer. but not seeing that, he is trying- but i guess i am looking for the over the top trying. Feel like i am making all the first steps...

Join the club, I think it takes time and it seems to me that men work better with actions than words.

I am still waiting for words, remorse, etc but doubt if they will come soon, he is still feeling a bit wrong done to......waaaaa why can't I have my special friend and you.!!

But I can see the trying in the actions so that will have to do for a while.

rrrgghh just a few bad days. went on a short vacation with WH, this was supposed to be a trip to renew our vows, well who knew! yeah that sucked. obviously that didnt happen, but it was a nice trip all in all, but back to reality and the same old, sets in. when does the rollercoaster end? when do you need to go to plan b, or do plan a again, when do the constant naging reminders of what he did and how bad it is end. please give me some hope that this gets better beacuse i am getting a bit tired, aggravated. i guess i dont know if this is something i can ever really get over. there is still no contact that i am aware of btw OW, she is trying, sms blocker and call blockers are great. he is nervous around me and thinks i am going to blow up, i may but who knows. just irritated that his actions are consuming my life

What do you mean "who knew"? Did you know that this was the purpose of the trip, or did your H spring this on you?

Why didn't the renewal happen?

Do you feel ready to renew your vows? Are you convinced that the affair is over and you are in recovery?

sorry i meant who knew my life would end up life this... oh no we planned the trip for september, canceled by weather, november rebook, weather and this march. planed together all the while he has carrying on, annoyed that he let me behave like it was my first wedding while he was having an A. didnt happen because i found out 1 month before the trip, i guess after 23 years i didnt think i should jump into things to quickly.Ha! no i am still realing from the thought of what has happened, dont know if i am at any stage in my emotional being to comprehend much. struggling with where to being with recovery i guess is the problem. still playing in my head like watching a bad accident, over and over.

oooh dear thing just got more dramatic.........

well he has had nc with ow, but shes trying very hard. he came clean and told me immediately. she sent 4 emaild and 2 calls today, from account that were not blocked.

2 issues
one- we sent a letter to her, but obv she doesnt get it, 4 emails and 2 calls to him today and i checked he had no repsonse and he sent me the emails. I was thinking about sending a note to her attny that handled her divorce with a copy of the nc letter and a note with the a copy of of the emails, i found she got a huge settlement and custody, or i can track down the ex husband and send it to him, thoughts? i happen to know the ex lawyer....

spite talking

second.. it was not me.... he was not working on it, confronted and agreed, though he wants nothing to do with the skank, he has no idea what to do with himself, ruined enerything, no direction, yada, yada. well I think i am ready to kick his [censored] out and he can see what he is missing and has to deal with it... within ten minutes of the suggestion i know he is nervous. opps my bad (sarcasim).. i think for today tomorrow and maybe the next, i am done with being the ony one fighting for this, i do have an appt with jennifer tomorrow so we will see... tomorrow is all about me!

ok little advice to talk me off the ledge, i want to respond to her emails right now so bad....i have his phone and can at as him......

act as him sorry

Hang on Chicka! Don't respond to her just yet. I think the only contact you might have with OW eventually (not yet!) is to let her know that you intend to file a RO if she doesn't stop the stalking, because that's what it's turning into at this point. Be sure and keep records of the attempts so you'll have a basis for filing something legally to stop her if it comes to that.

Good for your FWH for telling you about the contact. Did you thank him for that or respond in anger? If he's being H&O with you then make it safe to do so.

Good for you for talking to Jennifer!

((Chicka))

oh ok, i guess....but the RO wouldnt be for me it would be for him. what about sending her a copy of the NC letter every day for a week, or sending a copy to the lawyer??

I did thank him and encouraged him, there is no anger that i am showing to him at all. he is feeling that he is not handling this as well as i am and that is bothering him.

princess- thanks for the advice- jennifer agreed that i dont do anything it may cause me more problems.

Today, i think has been the first good day since this all happened, but it is only noon... (and i am on my "mini vacation", where it all about me.) He is reading SAA (and half done!) the light bulb seems to have gone on and he is understanding some of the things that have been happening, emotions, process... actually told me he can now see why the letter, blocks are so important, and he gets it, before it was going thru the motions.

I was thinking about having him speak to jennifer or steve, after he was done with the book. We are already seeing a counselor, so i dont want to frighten him. suggestions on when and how to bring it up?

Listen i know i need to take baby steps with this, i had my first turning point in the last 24hrs and i woud like to move on it.

Observation:

You don't want to frighten him ?

Really?

You must have reason to have such low expectations of him.
Has he historically been cowardly and easily frightened?

Advice:

Your WH ought to welcome any opportunities you present that will allow him to remain married to YOU.

How to bring it up?
Directly.
Without doubting yourself.
With conviction of knowing exactly what sort of man you expect him to be if he remains married to you.

Try something along the lines of ....

"WH, because of adultery on your part, I require more effort from you, not less. I am certain that I will require you speak to one of the marriage coaches from the MB professional staff."

There.

When to bring it up?

Today.

Do it.
Do it with confidence and with courage.

Pep always knows how to say the things we need to hear in a way we need to hear them BANG ON

NO, sorry i didnt mean to sound that bad or in that manner, its just that the the light bulb when off less than 24 hours ago, he is not done with the book (he started last night) and we already see a counselor together once a week and one time alone, so its been more than he has ever experienced, in his life and i just got him out of shutdown mode. I know the rabbit hole he crawls into.

How long are you going to put up with these constant triggers? It's not doing either one of you any good at all to be constantly reminded of this and living in fear of checking your email or phone for messages.

Tell your husband to get a new email address and close the old account. Better yet, you close the account yourself with no automatic forwarding or any of that stuff. Then, if she emails again to his new address, you'll know he gave her the new address.

If he balks, says he needs his old address, then you take over that account, change the password to something only you would know and forward any business-related emails to him.

As for the phone, just change the number. People do it all the time, and if he balks saying it's going to cause too much trouble, then he needs to realize that he's going to get a lot more trouble from you than any of his contacts.

EDIT: And I wouldn't grace that skank with any response at all. It's just what she wants, like a toddler screaming on the floor for attention.

agree that these triggers stink and these were unexpected bc they came from unknown numbers.

if it was his personal phone and email i would have done this on day one. unfortunately it is his work phone & email.... I will still tell him....

I just wanted to be nasty to her for the moment. I am over it.

Maybe his employer can help out with regard to the email? Sure, it'd probably be an awkward conversation, but I think we all know how it is to be hit with these types of reminders all the time.

As for wanting to be nasty to OW...ha, ha, join the club! I don't remember who said it (someone on here I think) but the best revenge against an OW is a life and marriage well lived with your husband. Screw her, you're better than she'll ever be.

i agree! but what are the fees to be in the imaginary club i will pay them. i love to hang up the phone at work and say all the bad things i want, but those arent the real issues, so talkin on this and to myself are helpful...

as for the phone work thing i brought it up and he knows that this is a critical step and bc she is a stalker.. its a move that has to be made, we dicussed how to deal with it, since his career is built on the number. email is easy, all his business is phone, i wish he were in the business where they all sat in- front of a compter- that would be easy but they are on job sites . so 20 years of contacts is hard, but he is going to change, the contact with mgmt will be hard, but he realized that this is the price of his actions. just any suggestions would be helpful, they will still keep his number bc thats where the relations lie for business, so some kid at the co. will be getting the crap from her, which will not be good.

I know i am being a bit more open on how this is going down, but his job is critical to our lives and moving forward. i am lucky there was no work realtions.

also follow up- he emailed for his own appointment...

I would say not bad for 36 hours after some light hit him and the fog is begining to lift.

ITA.

chick, it is IMPERATIVE that you two stop this contact. Each time she tries to make contact, she is triggering both of you and hindering any progress you are making in a R. Change the phone numbers and emails, like, yesterday.

If she continues to try to make contact, file the RO.

Please please be more proactive about this. I cannot stress how damaging this is to your R.

[[[chickadee]]]

Thoughts:

1. OW wanted out so she sent the wife a message?
NO! This is not how single OW end their affair with a MM.
A single OW is very different from a married OW.
A single OW wants to "be" the wife.
If a single OW wants out, she tells the MM "It's over."
She would not want more trouble by snitching to the BW.

2. OW might be a "bit off"?
It's possible she's a "bunny burner" a'la Glenn Close in the film FATAL ATTRACTION.
If this were the case, you'd be getting more support from your H.
OW would be amping up some crazy chit.
This is possible, but unlikely.

3. Wanted to hurt him because he told her "no more, buh-bye".
Again, possible, but not as likely as #4.

4. OW is deeply emotionally invested with your H, and she thought (wrongly) that he would be "hers" if you knew about the affair, because you'd kick WH to the curb.
THIS IS THE MOST LIKELY REASON for a single OW to disclose the affair to the BW.

This was an obvious attempt to get you to kick your WH to the curb, where OW would be the taxi waiting to take him to her lair........

EDIT to add:

Make a copy of her unwanted emails and take them to the police station.
Get a restraining order.

Also .... take a copy to your attorney and have him/her draft a mean sounding cease/desist letter to OW.

Also, buy a whistle.
If she ever calls, you blow the whistle into the phone. Say nothing.

bingo #4!

but she is a bit off from what i am gathering, alarm installed today, finally! i like the cease and desist idea, left message for laywer.

i still think she has bunny burning potential......

How frightened of her instability is your H?
Ask him.

i will ask him but i get a sense that he is a bit concerned since he thought the NC note would end it. but she is continuing. he never gave her his work email, she found it.. she makes up different email addresses....

he made up crazy lies when he was trying to end it, she kept hounding
she gave him printouts about me-
she had found out things about his family

anybody can find out info on anyone, so i know it was accessable but to print it out, bit wako.

been off for a bit.. have a question and an update. We have been working the program and have had a few sessions with jennifer, very helpful. He jumped on a session as soon as i told him i did one. He has been really good with communication and attention and understanding how much damage he has done. I would say he is enthusiastic, my question is.. i am very happy that he is so committed to this, and he feels like he is falling in love again, but i am still realing from this so i would say i am not as giddy as he is. I am afraid that his giddyness will wane in waiting for me to get there. rrgghh, just when he gets there, i am not there yet. I do love him, otherwise i would not be doing this. I am just not at the giddy stage. suggestions/advice????

btw- a cease and desist letter is in progress, so i hope that ends it, but i am aware that it could make it worse. the only hope is that shes a chicken and lawyers scare her.

ok need advice... I behaved poorly last night, threw things, but not at him (one thing was a roll of toilet paper), oh yeah called him liar,liar liar.(not my shining moment)but i did back it up, with that i was fighting for this marrige. this was after i found out that he was not honest with me and there was another indescretion, no sex. i thought we were working on the plan, what did i miss? doesnt the plan include revealing all indescretions? ugg bad day, didnt go to work beacuse i needed to seriously consider what i am doing.

Sorry to hear the news, how long ago was this other "indiscretion" that he mentioned?

some time in the summer, but i really dont know what to believe anymore.

How is he acting--remorseful, asking you not to leave him, etc?

Technically, you weren't supposed to have an AO when he told you that as part of O&H--but, really, I doubt anyone would fault you for lobbing the roll of toilet paper at him. Many would have selected something with a little more weight to it

Is OW#2 married? You need to tell her husband if that's the case.

very remorseful...or guilty... ah ha part of the fine line, he was not confessing per se i was questioning him... so he fessed up. he would not have told me, i asked him.

i dont know if she is married, i dont even think he knows who she is one time thing i think, but i also thought we are doing pretty good this past week.

just had a short talk -ok- he is remorseful, feels "disgusted with himself, ruined everything... doesnt know how to make it better, cannot undo this...."

I am normally a great communicator, but sat there, i think i am stunned into silence, i dont know how to respond. thoughts?

Chickadee, do you think you've gotten the full story yet?

If not, maybe you should ask for a poly. It demonstrates to the WS that you are not going to accept half-truths and oftentimes they fess up before you even get to the poly.

I am sorry you are going through this. Pep said one time that it's the lies that are the real poison arrows. How true. ((chickadee))

thanks susieq..
yes the lies are the arrows.

more tears and apologies last night. I think i may have gotten it all but i dont know. i think at this point i could just ask, he know the damage that he has caused and the pain and damage this last lie has done, i am really just so numb and exhaused. I dont know what to say. all of the positive affirmation and outlook in in the pits today.

did go say, that he cannot understand with the amount i pain that i am in how could i be willing to fight for this. today, i am not there. tomorrow, or this afternoon i may be better. we have a MC appointment today, it my session but he asked if he could come, i am undecided.

thanks to all for the advice, it is nice to know there is someone to vent to.

It's ok if you cannot respond--just tell him that. It's these "trickle truths" that really hurt, sorry to hear that you're getting these.

NW, its not like you dont have enough going on in your life, so i do appreciate you reassurance that i could be stunned, and i told him that i was trying to absorb everything.

just wish i was being a better plan A'er like i was, just not in it today.... But i look good today, so that one thing.

thank you!

Sometimes you just don't know what to say, or don't even really care if that makes any sense. It'll come and go, but if you sense that your husband is sincerely trying to make a go at this, then it's up to you whether to continue or hang back a bit.

I don't think it (self-preservation) is necessarily a bad thing, though. It's just figuring out if it's safe enough to trust again that is the hard part

You are being much too hard on yourself! {{{chickadee}}}

Jennifer (Harley) Chalmers talked to me about lovebusters early in R and she told me if I was feeling emotional or upset it is OK to tell my H I will talk to him later.

Hang in there...

nw that makes total sense and exactly what i am feeling at this point.

I definately think he is and was trying to make a go of this, right now he is very upset with himself and his past behavior.

SusieQ- jennifer told me the same thing. you are right.

its just so frustrating to get to what i thought was a great start and then to have a setback, but i guess the setback, arrows and trickle truth can make us stronger.

Thank you, i will try not to be to hard on myself today, i just want this whole thing to be behind me already.

how do you rephrase a question to him similar to: why do you want this marroige or do you? I am not going thru this again. or is that a bad question to ask at this time?

btw what are spiders?

Well, how about...

Do you want to stay in this marriage or not? If you want a divorce then you need to go file for one. If you don't want a divorce, then I want to get all of our cards on the table now, get everything out so that there are no more trickle truths, no more lies, no more halfways because there is no way that I'm ever going to go through this again. If I get any hint of contact again with OW, then I'm out of here. So what do you want to do?


Is that, essentially, what you want to ask? Then, well, ask it Honesty, if delivered without AO or DJ, is always a good policy.

Spiders, I believe, are some type of automated search programs that internet browsers use.

now thats about what i was thinking, but i didnt know if i had to be nicer, but that about sums it up. i cannot do this anymore or again!

next dilemma- there has been no contact recently partially bc we but the firewall on sms, but there has been effort- though the cell phone does not hold or record them bc they actually dont get to the phone they are in lala land. well because she is a bunny burner and has tried unsuccessfully to reach his phone, we have been advised to send the cease and desist letter (even after the NC letter- she persistant) our attn suggested that we take the block off to record the messages, bc when it hits she will go nutty- then we/he will have a "case". thoughts- not looking forward to tomorrow or wednesday when it hits...

Yes Chickadee you can be honest and open AND say those things. Say them sweetly but to the point and look him in the eye.

He needs to know you're not fooling around.

Keep track of everything that the crazy posow does and report it to attny and get an emergency RO if needed. You can get one in less than 24 hrs if needed.

So she's a Glenn Close bunny boiler type? We've dealt with them. When she realizes she is not getting a reaction except with possible jail time being the reaction she will change course and probably stop and go obsess over somebody else.

Stay strong! Remember plan A isn't all or nothing based on one day and its' success is over the entire plan A. Keep it going. You're doing well!

No reason to be mean or anything, just be honest with what you tell him.

As for the phone, if you do remove the block, make sure you have the phone and not your husband. You can, sorry to say, probably handle the trigger better than he can right now.

peachy- i will try and be sweet, i am not saying i am a bch but sweet sometimes sounds condensending to me, but i will try. didnt have the energy to talk last night, so i will dicuss tonight.

NW- i love the plan of having the phone, i didnt think of that. you are right i can handle it better, and more safely- i wont respond or react in a way that would be damaging.

my new awake at 4am is.... how much is too much info that i wont be able to fight for it? i was fighting for it before but this bump has thrown me into a tizzy, and he knows.. said "you were willing to fight and i screwed up again, by not telling you all" when i say no more trickle truths in our conversation, if there are more untruths, what is the limit of what i want to take? there is one line.. as i know now there have been one big PA and the small little one with strangers, if i find out he was involved with his sons, mom, i will just fall apart- that will ruin the entire unit, including my stepson, who i treasure. he is much older now, but our lives were built on a respect for each other and making a dual home work and showing him that even though things didnt work out like the typical mom dad child family- they could work and be nuturing and productive. that i think is my ultimate worry and line.

I guess i do have to cross that and find out the truth so i can move forward with no regrets, doubts and fears... justdreading the conversation. a big one time hit would have been better. and i have a psycho to boot. my life is looking a bit like a c rated movie.

well i guess tonights convo came sooner... i said it! just as we discussed, plus a few more things. he didnt have much to say, very sad, confused, guilty, fearful, disgusted.....

i did ask that he stop, pushing his thoughts of why would i stay and how he thought i couldnt get over this and i would never be able to trust him onto me, and told him that they were not my thoughts but possibly his true feelings, so he needed to figure out where he wants to be.

he said he would think about all of it and we would talk tonight, both late for work now... but oh well. not feeling to positive about the way he is feeling and dont know what he will come back with but i guess its the reality and it take 2 to make it work and i guess i will get some resolve later,

btw- he did hand me the phone and agreed the idea was good, i told him- the letter was not even at the po yet so tomorrow would be fine, it is his work phone.

i think he is baffled by my calmness and that is scaring him, or he has just got to many more skeletons and is scared shtless.

ooh am i babbling like a WH?

Yes, he's probably thrown off by your calmness and realizing that he has the potential for really running you off. Whether there is anything else, well, do you have any facts that you could test his honesty with?

No, you're not babbling and those "what else is there?" questions can really get to you. I am kind of surprised you're letting him "think it over" and get back to you this evening with his answer of what he's doing. You're either in or you're out, what's there to think about? If you're ready to get this show on the road, no reason to piddle around pondering the question all day From your other posts, it doesn't really sound like he's having trouble committing to the marriage, just committing to telling the complete truth.

Too, you don't want each of you to go back to your separate corners and end up sweeping something under the rug.

chick, when I found out about OW2, I was upset about it and a poster here "mopey" pushed me to ask for a poly and it was the best thing I could have done. So I am going to suggest it to you again.

There WAS something else that my H was hiding and without asking for the poly, and who knows when the next bomb would have gone off. At least this way I was confident there was nothing else, you know?

My sister also required a poly. The day that she told him she scheduled it and printed Qs off and left them on the kitchen table, he confessed ALL including another OW. (We both didn't end up getting the poly done)

If your H has proven himself to be a trickle truther and you have suspicions that there may have been another A, I fear he will need the pressure of the poly to give the WHOLE truth. As painful as it will be, you need to get it out of the way. Every additional dday really hurts your chances of recovering.

"do you have any facts that you could test his honesty with?"

no, and i have been into EVERYTHING and monitored it all! this would have been something well in the past, i am really just going on a gut feeling- it has been pretty reliable for me, if not ooops.


"From your other posts, it doesn't really sound like he's having trouble committing to the marriage, just committing to telling the complete truth."

that what i am thinking..gut talking- or should i call it pit.

he is scared, i am hoping he just fesses everything, i know he know there is no more bs for me, and i am ready to move on, if it continues.

if not my next step will be the poly... thx susieQ

you all are right!!!! just dreading more crap, and the ultimate crap that could happen.

" I am kind of surprised you're letting him "think it over" and get back to you this evening with his answer of what he's doing. You're either in or you're out, what's there to think about? If you're ready to get this show on the road, no reason to piddle around pondering the question all day "

NW- I think as i was the other day, stunned into silence- so as i said to him yesterday, he needed to absorbe it all, i do agree with you basically sht or get off the pot- but i did talk about more things than just my one pre- planned well worded (thx NW) statement. And let him stew for a few hours, I feel better now that i said it.

I did get a very touching email this AM, i make sure he knows that i appreciate it. I will be sweet, and i am very sincere about it really. He is trying to try.


thank you very much, you are really making the worst days of my life a bit better, i do appreciate all of your honesty and time.

Your husband sounds a lot like my wife and also reminds me of another poster whose wife is in a similar boat.

Do you think the email was an attempt to appease you and, hopefully, get you to drop the subject? If so, thank him for it, say you appreciate it, but still want to go over everything to make sure that there are no more secrets.

And just tell him to get it all out on the table. That you both need to have complete honesty here and that you'll even put the toilet paper under lock and key Was kind of being serious about saying that to him--throwing a little levity into the conversation may help.

And then, whatever he says, don't go off on him in front of him, ok? Thank him for the honesty and go for a drive or something.

If he's scared (and he should be) then he's going to have to feel safe enough to tell you these things without you flying off the handle. Yeah, I know, it's backwards since you should have every right to get ticked off, but you have to get this bandaid off.

NW- i agree they do sound similar and i have been following your post, i do feel for what you are going thru, but i was also relating it so much to mine, as well as the other poster, i think i am talk the same one as you. so does that mean my H is acting like a girl?? kidding- toilet paper is locked up,

I am very surprised to see so many men on this site, its an eye opener for me, as is this whole experience- i have learned alot and hopefully i will never send anyone i know here, but i know they are in good hands if need be.

No, I dont think the email was a way for me to drop it, he knows what i said, i think the part about "if you want a Divorce go file it" came as bit of a slap, as well as me saying dont keep stating "i dont think how/why/woulld/could you every forgive", if that is your (his) thought than you(he) need to think about it, but that is not for you to decide or think for me. i have been committed to this marrige. it was much more eloquent than that, but i think, him hiding behind my feelings is a cop-out.

He knows i wont push this under the carpet. I think he is scared that he just ruined his life.

I will be quite and listen, but i dont think i can muster a hand on the back encouraging him. I will thank him, and then figure out my life.

i have a back up to come get me- angry drivers are not good on the road, i am just dreading what could be the 2nd oops 3rd worst night in my life.

NW - BTW golf is a great RC- played 2 time in the last two weeks, the last time we played was over 15 years ago and that didnt go that well at all. I gave it another shot, Best ball team - match play with 2 friends- we did out own thing and beat them. I did get better over the years- but i really dont care and dont get to upset over hitting a silly ball the wrong way.

Well, maybe it won't be so bad this time.

I agree with your thinking he needs to quit presuming what you're thinking. That would get old pretty quick and is often just blame shifting--or something.

Just keep plodding ahead, you'll get through it soon enough. These things change so quickly, that I'll bet next week has you looking back on this from a different (better) perspective.

Glad to hear, you're one of several that think it's a good way to spend time.

With the two kids, it's been so long since we even did anything together that it's no wonder we got into this mess. We got a babysitter last weekend and took a 3-hr roadtrip. Later, we realized it had been the year 2003 (before our oldest was born) that we had done that. It's nuts, but we see the errors now.

ohh it was that bad, i do hope next week is better, but as my gut said, truth be told. have to write it tomorrow in a word doc, typing terrible and hands are too shaky. but the reality of the premonitions is alas true. not so bad right now. i have many questions on how to move forward and the more details the better the answers.. rrggh my c rated movie is true, not poly needed, susieq- but that would have added a c- rating to my life- all was fessed. appreciate the support and will need more as i figure this crap out. ur gonna love this one, but i know others are worse, but i know there is some one out there that has good advice. my old quote used to be..you cant have sunbeams without little specks of dust. oh dear dust storm, and not even from the south/west, sorry all southern/midwest folks have not experienced one till today.

Sorry to hear that your fears were confirmed. Do you think there's anything left that he hasn't told you, or are you satisfied that everything is out?

How's your husband acting?

Write if you get a chance. I know how it is to be unable to think!

So so sorry to hear this update. {{{{{chickadee}}}}}

I have all of the information I need to know definitely. Oh he is beside himself, he left for work crying. He knows that this was the worst thing he could do to me after everything I have done.

Long or maybe short of it� yes one big PA with little to EA (bunny burner) � devastating� 2 kissing in a bar � and the hardest to recover from- it may sound silly, he had a very short (week) lived make out session with his son�s mother. My DSS is 25. We met when I was 18, he had a son, with little contact, as a product of a broken family- I said that I would not date him if he had no contact or relationship. So our relationship grew as did his with his son. 23 years later I am here. I changed my entire life for them, I was never comfortable with baby momma (can I call her that- DSS is a bit older). I grew up and began to respect her for all that she had done for DSS- he is a fantastic young man. Our relationship as a family unit grew to a respect level that we could all accept. There�s 23 years of things but that the gist.

So as I mentioned, I knew there was more� reviewed my morning conversation about if you want a divorce go file but there will be no more lies. So I addressed the lies, very calmly I really think an Oscar is in order. He explained what I had already known, I said is there anything else that you need to tell me, he said no. That�s when I said something like your actions today, may define who you are tomorrow. So I ask about, baby momma. That�s when full body shakes began, and he had admitted he had a week of canddoling with her before she got married. She is since divorced, but who knows trying to whatever. This was his guilty; this was why moving forward was he was crippled. I thanked him for his honesty and asked him if he finally felt relief from what he had been carrying for let�s say 5 years. He said no, this is worse. He later did thank me (ha) and said yes it is a relief.

I told him he has to call her and tell her that I know, blah bla. So he called her on speaker, and explained that he told me everything� she has also been carrying the same guilty blah blah.. I did say that this was also an EA for many years longer and he did agree, while she not so much. She did say, that there werent enough way to say sorry to person, that saved her sons life (yes we had a bit of a severe depression thing with DSS and I got him the help he needed). More tears more apologies, more excuses, I ended the convo with I don�t know where this is going to go but I would hope that she would respect me enough for all that I have done for DSS and move on.
That�s the gist�but now I have to move forward (oh yeah today the C&D letter should hit- so the wrath from OW#4 should hit)
I told him that while I need to figure things out he would have NC with baby momma, he agreed.

He needed to make a large donation to a charity of my choice (in the same, amount as we loaned he to close on her home)
Do i/him (who?) tell DSS- about an hour later we both got an email requesting we don�t- but I think the opposite- he is a strong, young man, who is very thoughtful � he ponders the world, the way human function and interact and listens to people to understand and learn about life. He is a deep soul. He has respected me as a step mom and friend and we have a relationship built on mutual respect. My WH is destroyed, he thinks that his DS will lose all respect for him; on the other hand I feel that not telling him may do that more- he will find out, if he isn�t thinking it already- we told him about OW#4. He texts me weekly to say even though he is 20 hours away, he can listen, he is quite something.

I am really ignoring the email and I think it�s a bit rude, but she is protecting herself. Whatever- should have thought of it before the canodding.

4 lives in a mess for kissing, really��

WH and I have been working the program and have spoken to Jennifer a few time, things were actually going really well besides his guilt eating away at him.

Oh- yeah- he did thank me for finding this site and MB- he said it has been the best thing, and wishes he known about it before, his first minutes of a convo with Jennifer he was a skeptic, the last 45 he was a convert. He gets it. We have a follow up call tomorrow, I guess she may shift our plan.

I don�t really know where to begin.??? Ooh isn�t that my post title, well back again

1. Do you think that's it, that there's no more left unsaid?

2. Of course, NC with his "baby's momma". Shouldn't be hard to do.

3. Yes, tell the oldest son about his father and mother. You're right, he'll respect his father more for the honesty than the dishonesty. Go ahead and get it over with so that, by this time next week, you'll be way past it.

4. If your husband says he is relieved to be free of the lies and thanks you for doing this (MB, counseling, getting the truth out of him) then I'd say that's a very good thing.

5. Make sure you don't have anything that needs to be said, ok? Not saying you do, but a double-standard wouldn't fly very well.

I swear your story reminds me of me...a few false recoveries that, when looking back, would have never lasted because there wasn't that "genuine" desire to repair this mess.

So where do you go next? Think it over, talk with Jennifer and see what she says. It sounds like you took one big step here, and, hopefully, that's a good foundation for rebuilding your marriage.

hate that quote thing.

I dont know where to go next i know today i got up got to work ,look great, oh yeah i took an early lunch and bought a bike, rack and trainer. so now i am feeling good.

dont know what to do, concerned about my own self respect now. lot to ponder- but do i love him, of course, just hate his actions, now.

what to do???? I could break into song on that.

Hmmm, I know you said you have the full truth...but I have to tell you, the bar kissing thing, that exactly what my H said about OW2 and my gut told me that didn't make sense. It turned out I was right about that, it was lie. It wasn't at the bar and it wasn't just a kiss. Figured I would mention it.

Have you ever thought about calling into the radio show? Might be a good idea to get Dr Harley's take on this situation because there are multiple As, ddays and one of the OW is your stepchild's mother. I have called in once and they are SO nice and easy to talk to...

i think i do have it all, i did tell him, i would ask for a poly, his eyes poped out. then i made him go thru every sickening deatil.

I have not called into the radio sho, we have an appt with jennifer tomorrow, though.

Agreed, it's not the best format, but no sense dragging it out until he's back in the country. He'll be fine.

I wouldn't say anything about your posting here. Then again, I've always wondered *when* is a good time to do so?

Rhetorical question-- unless you know the answer for both of us

I did say that i have been getting info on the web, but he doesnt seem too interested in where the advice and info is coming from. but im not showing him, i am being selfish right now. though i dont think he would care, he knows that i have a blocker on his phone and the sms are recorded, and he wasnt bothered by that at all, he wanted out of the lies.

now you may have more bit senstivity at home... dont do it anytime soon you are riding a good streak.

who should tell DSS? him or both? baby moma is going to be mad. ooohh- should i respond to her email, saying i disagree and i doing it anyway?

my problem, is what do i do when i get home, nothing is normal its all new and i dont know what i am doing in my own head, its been too much for my multitasking brain to handle. I really cannot think of a damn thing to say, well maybe thats not a bad thing, i am tired i hearing myself talk- and i am the quite one. Last week we were making great strides on the program, this week set back... cannot wait to speak to jennifer!

You and husband should tell DSS together. Who cares about his mother and don't respond to her email. Better yet, block her address or change your email address so that you won't ever see her name in print again.

It's ok if you don't want to talk relationship now with your husband. Go ahead and practice the new O&H and just tell him this:


and ask if y'all can just do something quiet this evening--watch a movie, something that doesn't involve a lot of brain function if that's what you need.

He's probably thinking the same thing, but make sure nothing gets swept under the rug. Your call with Jennifer should help out. Just use that as your goal for the time being.

suzie q why are u always right, so after the confession and tears this AM. Got a heart wrenching letter 6 pages of honesty and a plan and committment to the future, but in the honest portion was another last and final lie. the way he described the canoodling with baby moma was not accurate, now it is... it was not sex but sexual, so that means clinton was right??! and it happend not many years agao but periodically up until teh last time just after her Divorce from her "partner" oh yes did i say c rated movie.

as part of the night a NC & admitting phone call was made and they Both Lied about the time frame and extent. I guess i was a bit numb, but the tears this am told me not to be sure, and susie q i wasnt dismissing you, i just have done trickle truth for too long now.

so still what to do???? I think that i would like to tell DSS alone, now and then respond to her fckn email with "that may have been ok, but you lied again, sorry" or i can be more intelligent with something like "i can see why you would think that way, protecting you child is critical, but protecting youself from the truth is not my problem, you had a shot and blew it" btch! what do you think ?

well the six page note goes into alot of soul searching thoughts, and the gist of it is an apology, which i did get in person, and the things that he is committed to doing if i will have him back.the note ends with that he will not come home unless i want him to.

what should i do let him stew for a bit?
write the email to the biach?
skype DSS by myself?

So sorry to tell you that my gut feeling is that you still don't know everything, chicka. All you have is the word of a LIAR and the whole it wasn't sex but it was sexual, I have a VERY hard time believing this. Can I just say the secrets that my H knew would hurt me the most were the ones he held onto until the bitter end?

I would strongly encourage you to follow through with telling him you are scheduling a poly (even if you are just bluffing) and tell him that because he has told you so many half-truths that you need the poly to know the ENTIRE truth is out before you can move forward.

I am not sure about the exposure or contacting baby momma, maybe hold off on that until you can talk to Jennifer?

i am doing that exactly, looking for a company now. listen he had sex with her at least once they do have a child so i know the reality, that it happend again. but i guess him saying it and me hearing it is part of the plan.

what about skyping DSS?

If you want to do it, I would say go for it! {{{chicka}}}}

thank you. i may just do that, unless someone here tells me no way, bad move

attny just scheduling poly as we speak, just told him and he is freaking, more lies to come.........

Yup, if he is freaking, that can only mean one thing. No matter what he tells you, keep the pressure up. Some of these trickle truthers are still revealing more on the day of the poly...

agreed to poly. no more he want to tell me he says there is not more to tell.

do i tell him to go? i am just very mad

well i took off for pizza and wine with friend at her home, cannot look him in the face as he rereads SAA. i have a self respect issue going on that i dont know what to do. i feel that i have done so much for this family, if i look at it from an outside point of view i may say i cannot believe she stayed after that one, the first was bad but i dont know, is she a doormat? this is more the close family and friends that know about the crap going on.

i think my moral standard is high, and i think that the way that i behaved and reacted during this is an example of who i am. as i said is baffling to many- with self respect calmness and decency, there is a fine line between how i want to behave and react during situation and having a lack of self respect that i didnt stand up for myself beter. hard to put into words, for example i have been upstanding, acceptng, understanding, welcoming to baby momma, people have said i cannot belive how i can do it all these years. if i stay in this i will feel like all of the self respect and respect of other will be gone, have to only have myself to judge. dont know if i cn do it, will i regret that i dint have the balls?

Whether you decide to leave or to stay, at least you will have chosen one of the two. Make sense? If you can say that you're choosing to stay, but could certainly leave just as easily, then I don't think that makes you a doormat or weak.

Now, if you stay because you are too afraid to go, then that may be something to look at. That doesn't sound like you, though, from what you've written here.

thanks- you are right, no i am not too afraid to go.

but before i decide... i need a plan, the exposure thing again this time feels different- the first time, before i found you all. i made him call his family etc. then i found MB and there is a plan to it, i was making it up, so now how does the exposure work, the exposure is more like a confession of sorts. i feel like i am kinda jumping back into a game thats already in play.

i made him call all the people, infront of me the first time. the exposure plan here tells me to do it. he has had no physical contact with her for at least a few months, the last two for sure, bc we have been working on this stuff.

so am i exposing the A or just exposing the lies, see thats where i am a bit confused-will have date for polygraph this morning. should i wait till thats over? i kinda liked the way i did it making him announce his 1st A.

any thoughts on how to proceed?

either way DSS will know today, i did rethink, i am going to let him tell with me there, if i did it- DSS may think he is a coward (which he is -bc he didnt tell me when given the opportunity 12x, with no judgement) i would like DSS to have a little faith (i dont know the word) in his father bc he came clean, and wicked stepmom didnt tell on him.

next steps, anyone?

The thing is, chicka, I wonder if your H is a serial cheater. It doesn't sound like he had the typical A where he got addicted to the OP. That's why I wanted you to talk to Dr Harley, I would really like his take on this.

I just want to make sure I have this right... There have been four OW and you already exposed the latest OW. The other three As took place over the years, the one with baby momma has been on and off for years, is that right?

it appears that he is... i will try and call today.
there have been 4 ow. the crazy thing also is that i have spoken with his 2 BFF and they are shocked beyond belief at this recent outcome, they were floored by the first but this they cannot respond. one a esq. who wrote the C&D letter and gave me the poly name, is a bit concerned. most cheaters are pretty easy to give hints and such to their BFF. they had NO NO NO idea and may not ever speak to him again, i said psysoipath, he said hmmm. he is a criminal def esq, so he knows some pretty bad folks. and he is concerned about his behavior

i found out about them in a backword order but this is the order that i have pulled together.

baby moma over a few years, most recentnly as the fall (??).
two girls make out in bar, whatever that is.
OW for 8 mos. ended 2/24.

exposed OW#4 on 2/24. sent NC and C&D letter called family frinds...

began MB plan and have been to MC 2x per week (for each), spoke to jennifer 3x working on EN. things going really good.
but then the gut, and his fog (which was guilt) and i know there was no contact with anyone including babymoma during this time feb to now- we kinda of hauled up at home together, but that foggyness was weird so i told him sht or get off the pot,as directed in a sweet way. thats when bar girls and baby moma came out, put it was like pulling teeth, one day bar girls, next baby moma kissing, next day he wrote the note admitting there was more.. that was yesterday.

Uggh...geez. When's that next appointment with Jennifer again?

Exposure if generally meant to get the affair partners to quit messing around. If NC is already in place, then I'd say just tell DSS and any OW's spouses and let it rest.

From what I've read elsewhere, a wayward usually spills their guts in the face of a polygraph. Keep up with him on that and see where it goes.

After speaking with Jennifer, I bet you'll have a better idea for a plan of action. Assuming your next appointment is next week, why don't you just wait until you talk to her before making any major decision? Waiting to make a decision can be your decision

Good idea. You can also email your situation, the address is under the MB Radio tab up at the top of this page.

Hang in there, hon...

got the info, have to email. they wanto the whole story rrgg, thats alot.

i am lucky we are schedule for tonight!!
i like that -waiting to make a decision is my decision today!

the thing thats killing me is that he is really pulling back, bc he thinks it over and there is now way for me to get over this. and maybe there isnt, but i told him not to think for me. but reading here at this point he should be trying to get me thru this pain, and he is frozen. tip toeing around and behavior like that. ?????

I've thought that as well about my wife.

Why don't you ask him why he's walking on eggshells and not busting his butt to make this up to you?

Predicted answer: I thought you (were or would get) mad at me and I didn't want to make it worse so I thought I'd leave you alone. I thought that's what you wanted, to be left alone for a while.

will do, but thats exactly what his answer would be word for word.

its just annoying.


just read
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=162467&Number=2501052#Post2501052

made me feel a bit better- get the tissues

i still like the exposing to family and friends, puts the mess out there and he has to own up to his actions.

should i delete his email account- baby moma emailed tru that, the last email was the other night of her begging us not to tell DSS.

i also want to delete is personal phone, i got it for him and she has the number- its in my name. even if its spiteful. do i just do it on both issues it or tell him to do, or i do it and say "wow, how could that have happened" and flip my hair back, while batting my eyes?

You are right. This is what Dr Harley says about exposing an A that has already ended:


But your H doing this on his own (taking extraordinary precautions) is somewhat a test of how committed he is to R. If he will not take these steps to prevent contact himself, then you have to ask yourself if this is someone you should take seriously.

Ask him to delete the email account and change the phone number today. Tell him that his doing this is a requirement for your staying in the marriage.

agreed! i was just angrgy and need to do some action.

i will put them on the list that i am preparing, its growing. what do you mean by extraordinary precautions. he is at the MC now, then we have jennifer. I may wait till after then, just to see if he comes up with it on his own.

had the little convo about his egg shells- word for word....

the first time i prepared a list of actions he had to do he jumped in and did them. this time pretty much same list, he is annoyed. he feels like me making him cofess to everyone, is like i am taking him down a notch, I will be honest, it does feel pretty good, but i the main goal is to move forward and i think it is even healing to him, it was the first time.

i told him if he wanted this to work he better put all that he read and what were were doing into action now, dont wait for me i still can breath and what he should be doing is helping me up from the truck that hit me 4x's.

some poster quoted/tag line about the cliff and jumping off, cant remember who, i wanted to write it down

You don't know what EPs are!? Yikes! This will be crucial for your H based on his history of multiple affairs...

Here's a link:
Extraordinary Precautions

no i know what EP are and those are on the list, i just didnt know if you meant something in realtion to how the account should be deleted. like he had to take extraordinary precautions while he was deleting the account, like dont press that button. sorry mis-communcation.

that brings up a point. i have this list of things i need him to do like confess to family..... i know should he actually be writing that list for me, should i not be writing it for him?

listen he has read the book, 2x and spoke to jennifer, he should know this, but i am afraid he dosent remeber, should i remind him, i can put it on my list

Ask Jennifer what she thinks re: your list. It sounds reasonable to me to make a list of things that you'd like to see.

The hesitancy on his part sounds familiar, but you're right to push for what you need him to do if he wants you to stay married to him. Following the same logic, it's then his call to say whether or not he can/will meet those conditions.

btw- would you suggest i ask him to look at this forum for advice and post?

i kinda dont want to because it been a good thing for "just me" and has been what has been helping me thru this (thats a taker move)

but i do think you all could help him, if he wants and a bitt of an [censored] kicking with support would be nice. and how would i handle it if you thoguht it was a good idea, meaning would i tell him my name, or say look at my posts or just tell him to read and am sure he would figure the c rate movie was his wife. or tell him to post his own????

Hold off for now, see what Jennifer thinks. Perhaps it could be an item on your "to-do" list for him?

Moderators can "edit" your thread, believe you just have to contact them via the "Notify" tab at the bottom of each post.

ahh very confusing- thats a good idea though i didnt ask her about that, shoot. he is finishing up with jennifer now. it was nice to speak to her. maybe i will be able to ask in our closing comments if any...

I really like the idea of BSs asking their FWSs to post here as part of recovery. I asked my H to post here and even though he wasn't big into posting, he did read and it was helpful for him...and it helped to show me he was committed to R...

I think it's just a balancing act of making sure your WH is not too foggy to where he will try to use what he learns here against you. You will have to make the judgement call of when you think he is ready

Hi Chickadee, North asked me to look in on your thread. I'm pretty new too, and you are in great hands if you are counselling with the pros here, but I have to agree with what was said above.

EPs are going to be a big part of your life. Your husband needs to be totally transparent, an open book. And for a long time - years probably you are going to need to be snooping in ways he does not know about.

Make this safe for you first and foremost. Otherwise whats the point? Why look over your shoulder the rest of your life?

I know hes maybe onboard maybe not. But you protect you.

thank you! and welcome renyolds from north of the boarder to my c rate movie. drama is always fun when it not yours. thank you NW, was feeling like i alienated others except for you and susieq.

i did get the opportunity to ask the question about him posting here, i has been suggested that at this time it may not be wizes, he has much to do and maybe it would be too much of a slap. im figuring. but a good question. she did comment that some advice has come from brilliant people. which is a kudos to you all, i hope.

for the hemanwomanhaters club, which i know it isnt you guys for real, bc you men are doing a great job in saving your marriges. and it gives hope to women that men are a bit deeper than they used to be- or its ok to be thoughtful. i am just so surprised at the amount of men here. just to pass along, there is this thing called neocube its a silly magnetic ball chain thing. it a very good stress reliever. look it up on utube, if its not blocked its 29 dollars and worth it if you are a need to do something wth your hands person, especially during hte talks....

btw the quote was from wolfpakgirl - good threads for me

When you walk to the edge of all the light you have and take that first step into the darkness of the unknown, you must believe that one of two things will happen: There will be something solid for you to stand upon, or, you will be taught how to fly.

very well said thank you,wpgirl

as directed, i am drafting a note to babymoma, informing her that DSS will be spoken to today about this mess. in it my WH asked that it include the no contact things, what else should i be puttling in it, i an shaking and i would like to say some prtty mean things- that has given be writers block- i have and opening and a middle, but iam stuck and may get ugly. he will read approve and send.

suggestions please!!!!

Jennifer didn't want a NC letter to be written by your H? I can post the SAA NC letter for you if you like, maybe you could use some of its language.

The NCL is typically written in a neutral fashion by the WS letting the OP know the affair was wrong etc. If it is inflammatory, then it is more likely to elicit a response...then things can escalate which is counterproductive to what the real goal is = NO contact at all!

Also I am surprised she wants you to inform baby momma that you will be exposing. That is typically a bad idea because then she could contact DSS before you and put her "spin" on the A and confuse him. (This happens all the time with waywards!)

he has is nc letter is the same as the first one. HA he just has to change the name, so sad.

out MC suggested that we send a letter to her informing her that we would be telling DSS. but the timing of it has to be perfect, we have a schedule time to talk to him today, and this note will go out 1 min before. if she hasnt communicated already, it has been 2 days. i disagreed a first but i can see it from the MC point of view, for the sake of DSS, for him to think that i/we kicked her to the curb, what respect would he have for me/us.

OK, so Jennifer wanted your letter to address the exposure, was that it?

and I think you said your H asked you to include NC language? I think you should leave that to him, other than approving his NC letter.

yes my letter just adresses the exposure, as directed by MC.

my H and jennifer discussed the NC letter, and that is his task, but i will approve. he did ask me to include it in mine, but i am not - thats his job.

Gotcha! Now if you want to post your draft we can take a look at it

As for the NCL, do you two have the SAA model for reference?

he has a copy of the nc letters,thanks

here is draft 1- dont kill me - i can barely type i am shaking

I understand the point of your email on Thursday; protection of your child, it�s a noble thing- but lying to him for your own self-protection is not.
�What the 3 of us have always done what�s best for him�- what is best for DSS is that he knows the truth, which I do now, ALL of it. I am disappointed that for many years my insecure about you relationship with my H came true. But not once did I ever disrespect or disregard you personally or your parenting of DSS. Exactly the opposite I was vocal about my regard for you- that vocalness enabled the acceptance of the situation with you, h and DSS by the entire family.
I am writing you to tell you that yes DSS will know about the affair and the full extent of it. (which I hope you are understanding I do know now the truth and I know that you both lied again on the phone to me- H has told me). While it maybe a shock to him, in time he will figure out how to process and deal with it- and I will be there to support him as I have in the past- you said how do you thank someone for saving your son�s life-
By admission of the truth hopefully he will gain a respect for H and for me, that this is what marriages face and how you deal with the issues are what defines what the marriage is. Someday is he is ever in the same boat he will know the right thing to do, perhaps he will never be in the same boat because of what he has learned.
We are working on repairing our lives, what you and H have done is unforgivable; my goal is to learn to forgive H, and grow into stronger marriage, built on honesty, caring, protection. I hope that you will respect my wishes. I need a better ending??

So Jennifer asked you to send this letter to your husband's ex-wife?

Personally, I wouldn't worry about your DSS thinking you threw his mother under the bus, but...well, here's what I'd send:




Then block her phone number from your house phone (most phone companies provide this service for a monthly fee). Change the emails, cell numbers, etc. as discussed earlier.

thanks NW- used your version with small tweaks, ok 2 tasks down, the letter to baby moma didnt go over too well, oh well. (bunnie burner #2) the video call to DSS, went fine. he is processing- but then spoke to me privately and asked me how i was doing, and if i wanted to come and visit him. he is a spectacular young man.

thank you for all of your help. we are writing out EP's later, but i may wait till the AM, has been a bit of an emotional day.

Any suggestions from the vets of what one thing they should have put on their first EP List that they didnt, or any thing that is an "aahh dont forget..." thing.

It sounds like DSS is a spectacular young man

Your H is going to have to completely change the way that he interacts with women. I have a lot of suggestions but I can't really narrow it down. My H has a whole paper full of hand written notes of EPs and they are all (almost) equally important.

Here are some ideas:

~ no opposite sex friendships AT ALL

~ no discussing of personal problems with women

~ no one-on-one time with women, work lunches, car rides, etc

~ no recreational time (bowling, parties, etc) with women even in a mixed group setting unless YOU are present

~ no emailing or texting with women outside of work reasons

~ no more going to bars or out drinking with his friends at night unless YOU are there

~ if ANY of the OW makes any type of contact (store, email, phone call) WH is to immediately end the contact and let YOU know and then take whatever steps are necessary to block future communication

~ no overnight traveling without each other

~ 100 % transparency, no erasing of emails or texts and giving you access to all records and accounting for all of his time

~ you two spend 15+ hrs a week UA time together meeting each other's ENs (yes, this is an EP) and learning and implementing MB principles

HTH!

we had a pretty good weekend overall, nice dinner out, then easter home alone us spending time. we reviewd our EP list and he enthustiacally agreed to all. he was a bit concerned about his recreation, running and boating... the boat requires alot of time to fix so i said i would help, as for running, as long as there are no running clubs, he should run -he runs in the AM or lunchtime alone.

he wrote me a love note.

he is pretty disgusted with who he was and i think he is going to struggle with that in his head, but i told him, to try and look forward to who he will become...

i am struggling with the nightmares. still up at 3am. any advice?

he is installing all of the mobi, gps and key loggers today, i will have admin rights. what do i do about the ones i installed? should i leave them also?

In my opinion, leave any spyware that you installed as-is and don't tell him about them.

His progress sounds good, re: the note and installing the software. And also, good job on the boating where you offered to help. That'll be good UA time for you guys.

Sorry, no advice on the 3 a.m. nightmares. I was up at 4:00 a.m. wondering if I was ever going to stop waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'm sure you get what I'm trying to say, even though I worded it very poorly.

Just keep charging ahead, I guess. I'm sure it'll get better and, as my W said, one day we'll look back and these troubles will all be in the past and over with. Gotta shoot for that.

I think he truly had a come to jesus, ironic that it was easter, guess my mom is looking out for me.

exactly my thoughts! i almost threw up when i saw the envelope with the note, i though utt oh more bombs.... he watched my panic as i picked it up, he said he wanted me to read it after he left. I said that statement makes me more worried. it dawned on him that he could see why i may feel that way since the lastest bomb was in a note.

susieq- thanks for the list, i think seeing it made me more confortable that i had it all covered. i did throw in no sex in any form with anyone but me, for good measure- i wanted to be very clear and didnt want any reason to say "well it wasnt on the list" It lightened the conversation.

"one day we'll look back and these troubles will all be in the past and over with"
i wish that day was tomorrow..

Shoot, while we're dreaming let's go ahead and wish it was yesterday.

I like his reaction to you reading the note--shows that he, at least, sees what you are struggling with. That empathy is a good thing. Did you write one in return? You don't have to give it to him, but it might be cathartic.

I am so glad you found the list helpful, chicka And I am even more glad to hear that your H was onboard with following those EPs.

If later down the road, you are still feeling "unsafe" or unsure that your H will follow what is on it, Steve Harley had us sit down periodically, every few weeks or so and had us read it aloud to make sure that my H was clear about everything that was on it.

About the nightmares & sleepless nights, yes, it will get better! Using Steve Harley's analogy, you have just suffered a major injury and it will take time to heal. The fact, chicka, that your H was willing to send the NCL and implement those EPs shows me that your H is focused on helping you heal your injury which is going to go a far way in helping your R along

yesterday would have been a great day, it was easter, and 70 degrees.

I did write him an email, thanking him for the note and asking if i could frame it, it was the nicest note.

we areed that this list of EP was for today, and tomorrow or any time it may change, but right now this is what i need to feel safe. I dont think anything will come off the list but more things that trigger me may go on.

I do really have to thank you both NW and SQ, you have really helped me thru this portion of my journey and i am grateful for all of the people here, most mostly for the 2 of you. you actually are a great tag team. thank you.

Perfect!

Are you two going to continue on with Jennifer or do the online seminar or lessons, etc? The reason that I ask is that I have seen ML post to others about making sure to implement the changes before the excitement of R wears off, so that you two don't slip back into bad habits. Your H seems very motivated now, so I would take advantage of that.

Even if you don't continue with the coaching or do the online lessons, please please make sure that you use this opportunity to really implement the whole MB program. Work towards integrating your lifestyles so that you spend all of your free time together, schedule your UA & RC time along with learning how to meet each other's ENs/avoid LBers.

we are still on with jennifer, no time to relax now, i we are just getting started, and i think knowing each week we have homework, helps. otherwise, i can see this getting put on the back burner, not happening for me, thats how we got here.

need some tech advice, can you have two apps mobistealth and mobilespy on the same phone, it seeem that mobil spy may work better on the droid, but i already have the other on it. ouch!

No idea, but there's a forum for tech questions. Maybe someone would know?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=71&page=1

One way to find out though

just an update, we are working on things, EP list was a non issue and is going ok, i really do feel more comfortable, not constantly looking over my shoulder, still looking but its not anxiety ridden, its more control. Working on feedback things on EN list with jennifer. spending alot of time together. little nervous, we have a family function this weekend (not mine), just nervous about seeing them, most know what happened. this is my first time seeing them. they are not the most supportive by nature and he was golden boy. they did reach out a few times, but half hearted attempts. thoughts?

Odds are they won't say anything if they didn't say anything when it would have counted.

They'd probably be relieved if you acted like nothing ever happened--you know the type--and it's probably not worth the effort trying to engage them on anything meaningful.

But that's ok, at least you know who you can and cannot count on. It's not a bad thing sometimes.

I agree!

Had a bad day yesterday, Its kind of hard to explain for me. We have been working very hard on the program and things are going well. But i kinda broke down yesterday, i am driving myself nuts with the spying stuff, and i dont like my behavior. I feel like i am a bit obsessed. I have all of his info and he even installed another phone watcher as part of his EP's. he has given me EVERYTHING! I am lucky i guess because i there is not this lingering relationship, when confrotnted it was over, there has been NO contact at all, he is actively doing the work, full committment to making this work.

but, i am the one who is kinda loosing it. And i dont know what triggered it. I just dont want to be the person that is a crazy checking up wife, and i mean the extreme kind, listen i will always be on the look out, but i have taken it to the extreme. I am feeling like the crazy teenage girl that i was when we started dating- i was a bit insecure at the time. It has taken me 20 years to get away from that insecurity- and i dont want to go back there, its not attractive- I am a successful, smart, attractive woman, who is behaving like a 16yr old jealous person. I am not displaying/taking any of this out on him in any way, this is all internal! Im just shaking, I did cry last night and i explained that i dont know who this person i am is and i dont like her, he started to cry and said "i have done this to you, my actions have made you like this and i am sorry, and what can i do to help you...." ( i thought pretty good for him). this is just me, is there a BS fog or something that you all can explain, and give me advice to help me get thru this.

I know i did not really go thru all of the stages of grief, i just started fixing... i dont know why i am feeling a bit icky.

Chickadee1

I hear you, I am the same way at times, it is just so hard to let go of the possibility that the same thing might happen again, but you have to just look at your husband's actions and learn to have a new view point of him and your marriage,
you said he is doing the work and to have him acknowledge his part in your stress is a good step, I would suggest being honest with him, let him help you........he feels badly about what he has put you through.....
Have you considered an AD to get you through, you are very early into this and I can say that over time the good will outweigh the bad and you will be able to relax.
I hear you when you say you don't like who you are now, I feel that way sometimes too, the whole situation just changes who we were and what we thought our lives were............It all seems so needless and pointless......
You cannot spin your wheels trying to make sense out of someone else's decisions, your logic side is looking for and answer, there just isn't one other than your husband lost his marbles for a while.........
You do seem to understand the whole situation for what it is so that is good, logic will rule over the emotions soon, give yourself time to process and just focus one day at a time, wake up each day and say this is a new marriage and what can I do to make it the one I want.........
Hang in there, vent here instead of at home.........
Stay positive, you are a successful, smart, attractive woman who is forced to live with a decision that wasn't hers, like anything else get a plan for yourself.......
jessi

Wow, it is strange how the time line is so much the same for everyone. I had d-day before you and I had these feelings about a month ago. I really felt like I lost it. I'm on AD's or it would have been worst. I kept looking when I needed to and I started to relax over time. I told my husband that I didnt think I was going to make it becuase I didnt like myself when I did all the snooping and he was very supportive and told me it will take time and he will do anything I need him to do to fix it.

I'm starting to slack off alittle on the snooping now but I still check his car at random times (he had the A phone) and still check the texts on our phones. I have never found anything so I'm slowly getting trust back.

Snooping recently killed the world's most notorious terrorist!
I'm in favor of snooping when you have a live-in-marriage-adultery-terrorist.



Think of it as "marriage insurance".
Put a GPS on his car.

Chickadee, the day will come when you won't feel the need to do so much checking. Right now you are feeling insecure - good for you to take care of yourself by snooping! Don't ever second-guess your need to care for yourself!

Read what you wrote again: you feel like the crazy teenage girl that you were when you started dating. Do you know why you were like that? Because you were falling in love with someone, and your mind was instructing you to make sure you were SAFE. Your mind is doing the same thing now.

For the first year or so after D-Day, if my H had stopped fast enough I would have run straight up his back. That's how closely I was tracking him! Do I apologize for that? NO WAY. I will do whatever it takes in order to feel SAFE. I am my own best friend. You need to be your own best friend as well.

thank you for all of your support and advice, ok i am not crazy.

How do i let him help me? Its all inside of me that i need to get clarity with, and you all are helping. i think that last night really threw him, bc he know he did it and he cant take it back. I am the tough one. He is definitley into the program and is really enjoying it and falling again.

My BBFMOM died 2 years ago as well as my hardly-father within 5mos of each other and at that time you would have thought i needed an AD, but i got thru it. this is different- you are right bit anxious but getting better- I think i am doing ok with venting here, a glass of wine and some very good empathetic generous friends. If it get worse i will.

marital- i like the way you think, this made me tear up a bit, you are right (again!). you just put it into a good perspective. just those teenage year stunk!

I actually, feel like i am also going to bang into him! I am also trying to not finish his sentences beacuse i already know thru my snooping- that stinks. I also stop myself from saying why didnt you take the other highway..... how would i know that... thats funny but bad.

really how often would you all check the keylogger, phone spy stuff & gps? its pretty easy for me since i am at a computer all day.

The only thing I regret about snooping in my teen years is that the internet didn't exist! It made the job of snooping my dates ever so much harder!

Check your spy tools when you feel you need to. I promise you that you will eventually find that you're reaching a point of diminishing returns and your snooping will lessen. That's when you'll know you're feeling safer.

In the beginning I kept the cell phone records at my desk and sifted through them until I had hundreds of calls and texts memorized. I could tell you the date and time of any particular call at that point. I checked my H's office emails probably 8 - 10 times a day. I checked his voice mails every night before I went to bed and every morning when I got up. I can't pinpoint exactly when this lessened but I think it was toward the end of the first year after D-Day.

Never quit snooping entirely, though. Always retain the right to snoop at any time. (Let's call it 'maintenance snooping' - how does that sound? ) You don't ever want to go back to that 100% trust business. What the heck were we thinking in the first place, trusting our spouses 100%??

Snooping is win-win, chicka.

When you don't find anything, you start to feel safer and trust starts to rebuild.

It's also good for your H to know that he is being watched. It holds him accountable for who he is talking to, etc and that's a good thing!

You just recently had multiple ddays. It sounds like you are being very hard and critical of yourself. We all snoop like crazy especially in the beginning. It will naturally start to decrease (as long as you don't find anything!)

{{chicka}}

Yeah, what Susie said.

I used to do the drive bys..... or pick up hang up, with no caller id....

Marital this is me! "In the beginning I kept the cell phone records at my desk and sifted through them until I had hundreds of calls and texts memorized. I could tell you the date and time of any particular call at that point. I checked my H's office emails probably 8 - 10 times a day. I checked his voice mails every night before I went to bed and every morning when I got up"

"It will naturally start to decrease (as long as you don't find anything!)"- god forbid- i cannot do this again, this took all of my reserve power.

thank you all for making me feel better, its not something you really want to admit to, they would lock me up thinking i was ocd, well maybe a bit....

Pepper- every time i read one of your posts- i crack up at the end, i love your tag line. esp when you are telling the harsh truth. and i read the C&S thread often.

Well i thank you all it seems that i have the pro's today and i do appreciate all of your advice and time, you all are really keeping me on track, sane, reassured, laughing... I am glad i posted as soon as i did.

Any upcoming potholes i should be looking forward too? I hate surprises (well now i do).

jennifer tonight so that should be good.

Everywhere. Recovery is just one thing after another.
Sorry, another "harsh truth".
Exercise your self care as often as necessary.

There is usually a huge "angry" pot hole around the 6-8 month time frame. Your milage may vary.


This makes YOU one smart chica, Chica.

Yeah, well I've got you beat Listen to this one:

So, this one time, when I was sixteen/seventeen, I kept trying to call this guy I was dating and I kept getting a busy signal. Well, I just KNEW he was talking to Linda! After about half an hour, I called the operator and told her she had to break into the line because there was an emergency (!) She did, he was indeed talking to Linda, I read him the riot act and hung up on him. Then...wait for it...the operator called me back and read ME the riot act, because she knew it wasn't an emergency! Obviously I had to remove that technique from my repertoire.

Remind me to never be an idiot teenager again...

Just keep your arms and legs inside the car until the ride comes to a complete stop. And keep checking as much as you feel you need to.

You are well on your way, sister. Good job!

Agree with Pep & mb. Very very wise decision. We used Steve a couple of years into R and I wish we just did it to begin with, the Harleys know how to keep your R on track!

ETA ~ btw, you are too funny, mb!

rrgh... is that anger going to come from me? may be i should go on AD now, so they kick in!

How about a drive by after the first date, and he lived on a dead end, which you couldnt tell until you were at the end and they were out playing basketball, and i had the only VW in town. not good.

marital that is BAD, cant say i hadnt through about doing it, but i though the police would get me.

We both like jennifer so that is good and she is keeping us on track, we do have homework to finish before the call. its very funny like we may get in trouble or something, well maybe him....

Again, THANK YOU FOR GETTING ME THRU ANOTHER HURDLE!!!

But OH! the shame!

so get this.. it have all the spy ware and i do my FIRST ok maybe second or third, but no more check of the day this afternoon, and there is a text that says "hey sexy baby, have a nice day" well needless to say i flipped my lid after throwing up in my mouth (kidding). so i call husband, he freaks i freak, and call the number as does he. its our 25yr old boy neighbor txting his girlfriend she is the next contact in the book. so now he has boys txting him too, no wonder why i am crazy.... no i can giggle but i was at the edge, see cant i catch a break.... his mom and i had a laugh.

jennifer was awesome

I remember, early in recovery, when I was checking our bank accounts online - I almost lost it when I saw a charge on our account that clearly was WH and his girlfriend - I held myself together and asked about the charge. It was a charge from an overnight stay of mine and H's that included a meal I'd forgotten about. You'll have that.

btw- when do you say recovery? what is that line you have to cross, just want to know it when i get there....

off to my first family function of his, lets see what happens, they are very sweep under the rug types. he agree not to leave my side, and when i am done we can go. he thanked me for doing this, lets see how the day procresses, there is always drama. I look great though and i am not helping with the dishes! this is certianly not high on my scale of this i want to do, but we have negotiated.

here i come in-laws take that!
but i really dont want to go...

ok well the weekend was ok, got thru the family with out any issue, yes they ignored the whole thing, they did catch him and ask how he was doing!!!???.... what am i wood, or i have i locked him in the closet beatiing him, he was the wrong dooer- "no the bus that rolled over me and then backed up, no that was nothing i am ok, thank you for asking." ( my vent)

Let me ask the vets since they have se so many stories come thru here. May be its my neurotic day...

I have read so many posts and it seems that i have gotten off pretty easy, he is eager with the program and really into it, it has definately changed the way he is thinking in may different aspects also. (please dont hit me with a 2x4)

I know i had a few trickle truths that lasted a month or so. maybe i am forgetting that it was bad. But i havent had to drag him by the hair to do any of this. Its just getting me to think.... i dont know what i am questioning, just that so many other have to work so had to get thier WS to see the light.

thoughts????

am i missing something or did i just get that lucky (lets not put too much into that word. Lucky- thats funny...... you know what i mean.

btw- when do you say recovery? what is that line you have to cross, just want to know it when i get there....[/u] If he is making compensation has EPs in place and you are actively working on the recovery plan...Then My dear you are in recovery.

[u]I have read so many posts and it seems that i have gotten off pretty easy, he is eager with the program and really into it, it has definately changed the way he is thinking in may different aspects also. (please dont hit me with a 2x4) You did get off easy and have a remorseful H. Does that help...no not really the hurt is still done. But I can assure you its better than being in the abyss.

Be glad and rejoice but dont make the mistake I did. Getting complacent in your M will inevitably let this happen again. Pay close attention to the principals and apply them year after year. ENs, POJA, PORH and UA time is something none of us can afford to fail with.

My H did a turn around on D day.
That's not saying he did not tell a few lies after D day.
He's an alcoholic, so there was that too.

But, MY SWEET BABOO was eager to stay married to me .... and losing the OW was no biggie for him.
I think my H's A relationship had already lost most of it's luster/sparkle/woo-woo anyway. He was more than ready to quit his bad self.
He felt like a turd on stale moldy bread.

yes all of EP are in place. working on plan, with guidance from Jennifer, which has been great- I dont know if i am ready to say recovery, i think i am still in shock, is there a pre-recovery stage? I guess the word is tough, i dont know if i will ever fully recover, i will be different...

OMT- "You did get off easy and have a remorseful H"- it does help hearing it, i guess i also thought i had a non cheating husband so i am still in that uneasy frame of mind. I am a prove youself kinda gal.

pep you just make me laugh. your sweet baboo, knew that he was going lose and amazing person. I think that fact that my H- skanyho, was a psycho bunnie burner helped my situation.

thanks for the help!!!!

Girl look at some of the other threads where WSs are leaving, spewing and the such. But your right action mean something and words mean little. But if his "actions" show repentance. Then the only thing that WILL STOP recovery is resentment. Im not much of one to preach on that subject because its been the single biggest hurdle I have yet. I cant figure out the path over that huge mountain yet either.

Maybe you're just so used to being on the offensive/defensive that now you don't know how to just be "ok". For me, I think I would pick at something that was not wrong just to make sure that it wasn't wrong and end up damaging it in the process. Make sense? A hard habit to break.

I don't know if you got lucky or just caught this early where others had let a lot more damage occur before trying to get back on track.

If y'all are both actively trying to change the dynamic between you, I think you'll start to see an improvement. You know how your mindset/thinking changes so much in this, see how you feel in, say, one week?

Ohh i know looking at he threads make me very thankful. he is defintely working it. Its just me being the doubter and saying, could this really be true?

I do know that resentment will be difficult and it will rear is ugly head from time to time- i am trying to put those thoughts out of my head. becasue i think that people tend to fall into that resentment rut and it hard to get out of it, and the only person i would be damaging is myself.

I am going with-- I wont be able to meet anyone's EN if i am being resentful. Its like answering the phone with a smile.

(I can have my own pity party dont get me wrong (privately)).

Strangely, I found that having a pity party by verbalizing here helped the most. Usually, someone ahead of me would respond and put things back in perspective. I don't know, maybe just putting it all down on screen (versus "on paper" ) helped out and was cathartic. It's been a while since I had my last "woe is me" time, quite a change from several times an hour.

Do what you can with the resentment, it's a hard thing to let go of sometimes, but it sounds like you're on the right track.

"Maybe you're just so used to being on the offensive/defensive that now you don't know how to just be "ok". For me, I think I would pick at something that was not wrong just to make sure that it wasn't wrong and end up damaging it in the process. Make sense? A hard habit to break."- this is me!!! makes complete sense. say the word pick and i am on it.

this fourm has helped me with my pity party, thanks for coming to it there is no charge. I am glad NW that you arent "woe is me -ing it too much- i call it eeyoring- like the winnie the poo.

did you just say Y'all????

Here's how I look at this.


You're doing fine.
Your D day & NC letter was not that long ago.
You're still on that emotional roller coaster.


Our adultery-hell-a-mess was 15 years ago.
I never thought I'd feel as in love and as happy as I am now.
Our 30 year anniversary is right around the corner.

Steady as she goes.
I does get better.

pep! the bottom fell out again... i knew it,.. there is more. see no time for the weary or to be comfortable, learned that this has been going on with many more and longer.... i think i am going to plan b. uggh he is in the other room crying bc i pull more shot from his [censored]. i think i may make him leave tonight

the poly was scheduled soon (phone tag), but still pulling [censored]

i dont know if 10 (thats how long i am gathering-) out of 24 years is worth it. he needs help, if he thought that sitting arouund for 24 year, did not show that he wasnt needed. give me a fnk break. are you a moron. i did say that and i dont care that i had a DJ.

dont know who i have been married to for 10 years, he doesnt know who he is. gave it my all, planned a like a winner, he need to figure his own sht out, dont think i am up to accepting and forgiving 10 yrs.

a friend is picking him up

chick, what happened???

{{{chickadee}}}

well oh dear.. more crap came true.

i told him he needed to figur out his charater. i dont know what to say you have to me questiona

Chicka, are you drinking? Please do NOT drink tonight! Please post if you are reading this and let us know you are okay!

had a glass of wine. I cannot type and spell and i have fake nails on. was working the plan a to the max. I am fine, just stunned. thank you for responding. taking the nails off

but i cannot type or spell normally

Chicka,

If you know me, you know that I am not afraid to tell someone if I think they need to be looking at Plan B/D....

But you know what? I see a lot of good things with your H ~ his willingness to commit to working the MB program, his willingness to coach with Jennifer, to expose his As and to implement EPs and affair-proof the M.

I think what you need to do is what we tried to tell you earlier, schedule the poly ASAP, tell your H that he needs to come clean with EVERYTHING or it will be over. Give him that one last chance. This is what I had to tell my H in order to finally get the full truth.

Please don't drink, hang in there. {{{chicka}}}

i will follow thru with the poly, he just fessed more w/out it. but the guy was on vacation, damn him. but it's been 10 years of lies,...do i need to do this??? with no judgements i have given him the oppt to tell me.

he is asking why u would do all this for him, i told him i love him and i was fighting this, but how much more??? he doesnt get that his life is worth it... and there is no OW. just alot of past crap

he called already, should i have not responded? i did, he is beside himeself.

i think makng him reflect may do him good, he had been saying all along i am not as good as you and why????

i am stunned, but jennifer thought i may be done but no, chronic lyer but a good person that lost his way- or maybe never had one...


going to bed, big day at work and will look great

Hope you used birdshot and not buckshot.

So what happened, besides more trickle truth?

Agreed. Take the night, or next day or so, to let the drama settle and maybe he'll get his act together.

Have a good night, hope tomorrow goes better for you.

you are from the south, i dont know those terms, whats the diff... more TT thats about it, just ughhh

i am taking the day! i am sure he will get his act together, but how do i accept that?

Yes, from Mississippi and, yeah, I did type y'all earlier. It just kind of slips as I type what I say...and I don't say "you guys"

More TT? Might have to google that, not sure what that is

EDIT: TT = trickle truth, got it.

Beats the hell out of me since you've been here before and thought you were past all this.

So what was the "indiscretion" that he confessed to?

we say uz guy,,, tt is trickle truth, dont tell me i made own thing that could be added to the list

sorry for the delay it must be the north wireless, thought i was done also,, but no... he confessed to many more and longer years its its not current crap for him but it is for me

going to bed i will be up in 3 hours anyway... and i have to put my game face on, thank you all!!! i do apreciate y'all coming to my pity party. lets talks about my asking about recovery post.. day one tomrrow.

LOL, Joe Pesci from "My Cousin Vinny" just came to mind

Hey chickadee, you'll be ok. And you typed y'all...bet you didn't think you'd be doing that today, did you?

Goodnight.

ok so i got 5 hours sleep pretty good. other than work what is my game plan for the day?

do i expose all of the new past indescretions?
i will call poly man after 8am.- but i dont know it that matters at this point. it may just be too much for me to handle. there is alot.

i am so curious as to what is going on in that head of his...

We're talking about things that happened years ago with people he is no longer in contact with, right?

If so, I'd let it go as far as telling a bunch of people. You could tell those family members that may inquire as to why he left the house, but they'll probably just assume it was because of some of the other indiscretions.

Keep the polygraph appointment, but maybe you need more time to chew this over as to whether or not he comes back home today?

As said before, sometimes there's no harm in not making a decision right away.

yes this was in the past and there has been NC.( but what do i know) I agree this is all to new to make any decisions. i do think keeping him out for a few days will let the reality of this new situation sink in. He did text me a a lenghty text about how he didnt protect, wish he could have been better, yada yada. I have not responded. he said he would stop by after therapy tonight.

I am expecting that he has detailed out all of the indescretions in a note, so there is more to come.

for 10 years who is that person???

i guess i should change my sig line

so i am now waiting to get hit by the 10th bus, its like i am in the trenches ready to swing into action. he should be by soon.

what do you all think about the week off? I dont want to send him to a hotel, that would make me crazy, not to his familys homes (they would eeyore him). thoughts?

If you think a week off would help, then tell him that. But if he cannot stay at home, in a hotel or at his family's house then...are there friends of his that could help?

No one, of course, would fault you if you let him stay at home. Why don't you just see how it goes?

At some point, if you decided to stay in this marriage, you'd have to put aside the anger if you wanted him to feel safe with telling you anything. Now, wait, don't hit me with a hammer for saying that, he did wrong here, but I think you know where I'm going with that.

But I wouldn't want to give him the impression that, no matter what, he can always come back. Make sense? There's a fine line there somewhere, I guess.

Right now, I'd bet he's so gunshy that he'll be scared to say anything to you.

I know, least helpful post ever.

Hi Chickadee,

It is hard to advise w/o some of the details of the latest exposure. It certainly sent you in a tailspin, so it must more than a casual hurt.

Just on the surface it does appear that your WH is a serial cheater, would you agree?

I believe I have one too, so I can sympathize with you.

Best,

ba

total serial! just got the full list... its very long. I am not angry yet, i am just stunned that this has been going on for so many years and so many people, not just the 4 indescretions mentioned the complete list has 20. not all sex, but still bad in my book.

i cannot even speak, i have no words, i am definately the strong one and i am shocked into silence.

I do think he need to go for a bit, i need to wrap my little brain around all of this.

its just too much

Some thoughts:

It's safe to assume your H is a serial cheater...

There is one radio show in the archives about serial cheaters. (If you want to listen and can't find it, lmk and I will get the link for you) Dr Harley says some people get addicted to one OP and there are some people who are addicted to affairs but he says the treatment is the same ~ eliminate the environment that allowed the serial cheating to happen (EPs) & integrate your lifestyles so that you spend all of your free time together.

The problem now w/trickle truth ~ you said he gave you the "full list"? I am sorry, but I wouldn't trust that until you have the poly done.

Have you seen Joseph's Letter? Some folks have given a copy of this to their WSs to help them understand how important it is to get the full truth... LMK if you want it.

NW brings up a good point ~ and that is if in the past when he has been truthful with you, if you have had AOs or DJs, that is going to make it that much harder for him to come clean. He is accustomed to having a SSL (secret second life) so radical honesty is going to be a struggle for him and you are going to have to help him [This is a problem of my H's and what I was on the radio show for...]

Lastly, if I were you and I thought I would be wanting to try to recover this, I would ask him to come back home, but of course, you need to do what feels right to you.

{{chicka}}

uugghh just wrote this all out and then it was gone... i cannot use the quote thing

It's safe to assume your H is a serial cheater...100% right on that!

There is one radio show in the archives about serial cheaters. (If you want to listen and can't find it, lmk and I will get the link for you) Dr Harley says some people get addicted to one OP and there are some people who are addicted to affairs but he says the treatment is the same ~ eliminate the environment that allowed the serial cheating to happen (EPs) & integrate your lifestyles so that you spend all of your free time together. If you have the link handy great, but i will also look. i wrote addiction on the top of my journal as soon as i read his note and list. we have been actively working the program, i mean heavy into it. and things were going great, he was saying wow, things can be like this, this is awesome. he was getting clarity on many things including what love is...

The problem now w/trickle truth ~ you said he gave you the "full list"? I am sorry, but I wouldn't trust that until you have the poly done. i agree, playing phone tag with the poly guy... My friend has used him in the past and said he is the only one he trusts. i kinda believe that the list said it all, it was very detailed. When i was set to do it before ( you only have 4 good questions) my question was, is there anything else that you have not told chickadee? should it be the same. he wrote the note, i wouldnt let him read it to me i read it, so he didnt actually say the words.

Have you seen Joseph's Letter? Some folks have given a copy of this to their WSs to help them understand how important it is to get the full truth... LMK if you want it. yes please!

NW brings up a good point ~ and that is if in the past when he has been truthful with you, if you have had AOs or DJs, that is going to make it that much harder for him to come clean. He is accustomed to having a SSL (secret second life) so radical honesty is going to be a struggle for him and you are going to have to help him [This is a problem of my H's and what I was on the radio show for...]- i really have not had any AO or DJ, last night i made a snide comment then apologized. actually in the part of his note, he said it broke him when i kissed him on the head and said it would be ok. i did thank him for telling me tonight, i guess i am stunned into silence for the first time. i am just very quite, trying to absorb it all.

Lastly, if I were you and I thought I would be wanting to try to recover this, I would ask him to come back home, but of course, you need to do what feels right to you.

i know he is feeling very naked right now and completely exposed. i think i need just a bit of time to get my head to a place where i can be productive. he called already and understands why i need some time. I asked that he continue working the program, not shut down, behave, think of what a good marrige looks like, all of those things.
he will bring me breakfast tomorrow, i think he thinks i am gonna waste away = stress.

sorry for that long double post, i cannot work the quote thing- i am gonna test on this

ok maybe got it now, you have to highlight the text... derrr

OK, here's the clip on serial cheating:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=578


Here's Joseph's Letter:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is will affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

perfect thank you

suzie, sugar and pep- do you have links about your stories? you come in here and spread fairy dust, how did you get to that place?

It's been awhile. 15.5 years.
I did all the post adultery work without the benefit of MB.
I could have avoided so many mistakes (big giant stinking lovebusting) if we'd had MB back in the day.

But, anywho, here is a brief outline of my story.
LINK

Our 30 year anniversary is next week !!!

If you click on my name, and go to the last page of my posts, that's where my first thread is. I have another one on the recovery board and that one has to do with the problems we had with O&H ~ that one may be harder to find since it's more towards the middle of the posts. If you want to read it, lmk & I can link it for you.

This is awesome!

that it is awesome!

my prob now is that so many of the years he was philandering. i dont want to count them.

thanks for the links! so much easier!

How many?

uggh, the list says
3-OW- sex
2 OW oral
3 make outs-
and a bunch of dates the left before physical ( ok i find that hard to belive).

reading it makes me shake, sorry

Not meaning to sound cavalier, but do you think that's all of them?

from the his behavior probably, but i am still doing the poly- he wants it scheduled this week if possible, he is ready to prove that that is it, he understands why i wouldnt believe him.

He is a mess, i mean a mess. the last two pages were like, my name is xxx and i am a liar. I am a monster, selfish, cold distant, weak. and that goes on for another page. he has lied to everyone, he does not expect forgiveness at all. this was big confession note.

he is waiting/hoping to see if i will be able to move forward but unstantand why i may not and doesnt expect me too.

he said i think he is a monster, liar, .... I told him i never thought that, or said that. those were possibly his feelings about himself. I said you never asked me what i thought you were. I guess i should write what i think he is down on paper for myself.

I am just in a state of shock- listen i asked for the full truth and i am getting it, i knew it was going to happen, its just had when it does.

many posters here are encouraged to leave a serial cheater, i am getting the feeling that i have more supporters for the opposite- just curious, what makes it different.

I think it is important to recognize the facts and to deal with the facts.

His being a big mess is a good sign.
Unless he makes this all about him & his pain.
BRB to post a link.....

chicka, a lot of people will support you either way you want to go. It is really up to you!

Exactly !

This ** LINK ** will take you to DancesWithGoats' first major thread.
She began the thread dealing with the knowledge that her H (MB poster Greenmile) had a 6 year A with one woman. Later, it was revealed to her that in addition to that 6 year affair, Greenmile had been unfaithful the ENTIRE length of their 26 year marriage. Mostly with hookers.


I personally thought she would dump him.
She did not.
When the truth of his past was discovered, Greenmile (a retired physician) had a breakdown and was hospitalized.
I thought she'd dump him.
She did not.
I do not know the current status of their marriage, they post on the private forum with Dr Harley, I do not.

I could support DWG in her decision to stay married. or to divorce GM.
She made her decisions step by step and not foolishly or wishfully.
There was (is ?) a huge amount of anger for DWG to deal with. Her anger nearly sank recovery a few times.

She only moved forward with GM after he made serious changes to his life.

Still, the struggle to overcome resentment after this sort of long term betrayal is pretty formidable !

My advice to you is to wait to make a non-emotionally charged decision.
You can always leave this marriage.

A good thing, chicka.



Maybe because he seems to be going through so much turmoil over this and isn't trying to deflect or blame his actions on anyone else.

Like Susie said, we'd support your decision no matter what.

I actually read some of that post about a week ago, but i will re-read. thank you.

he is a mess beacuse he told the truth for the first time. I guess after so many years of your life being a lie i would be a mess too. When he is around me it more like its about me and my pain, he is not woe is me-ing. the note was his confession, but it didnt hint at a pity party.

he had made serious changes, when we started the program, what other changes should he be making? ideas.

I am just taking it easy for a few days, i am still numb. I did ask for the truth and i got it, that what you are supposed to do. why is it different this time? When i learned of # 1 and #2, i was still willing to make it work and we were. these were even longer ago than the #1 and #2. so really what the difference, what is making this worse for me.

we are working with jennifer- would you suggest dr. harley for him?

Ask Jennifer what she thinks about him talking by himself.

Your thoughts about, this time, the revelations not really bothering you as much make sense to me. Kind of hard to explain, but maybe it's because, now, you're actually ok with not staying married at all costs?

The Dr does not do phone coaching.
Are you able to post on the private forum?
Ask Jennifer.

yep this stinks...

i think we have an appt today, or its next week, i will ask about what she thinks.

I am not able to post in the private forum, but i will aso ask.

it was better when we had a plan to work for, i am just wandering today.

You can only post on the private forum if you do the Program #3, the online seminar.

Every dday/more trickle truth drains your LB$. I hope your WH really understands this. Dr Harley was able to get through to my H (on the radio show) the importance of being honest...do you think your H would be willing to call into the show?

i will look at the program #3.

He does get it, he was just a "coward" and could say it. Jennifer got him on this, but it took so long for all of it to come out. She wasnt surprised, after the second time and gave me the impression, that it wouldnt be uncommn for more to come out.

I actually had a question about her comment, she said i have seen this and that i was lucky it was happening so fast after i found out, well now its a bit longer, but i assume some people can go for months working on MB and then when the realtionship is at its most secure, the WS feels comfortable to tell more. I could see that happening, well i gues it did in my case......

I dont know if he would do the radio, actually i think he would do anything i asked him. you have to email a specific question? what would that be?

I did listen to the link this AM about the diff between serial and one time - interesting.... Jennifer toched on all of those things and we have been following a very intense EP. but i still think the character issue has a bit of weight.

For me it is all about the willingness to make changes, implement EPs and make the M a priority. I feel more hopeful about your H than I do about some other one-time WSs I hear about on this forum for this reason... (not to say I wouldn't understand if you don't think you could get over it, because I do!)

You can email the show and tell them your situation and ask if they could talk to your H and tell him what he needs to do to fix this or if you want to talk to them yourself, you could do that as well! Whatever Jennifer said didn't get through to your H because he was still trickle truthing you, right? Maybe Dr Harley will be able to get through to him? It could be worth a shot...

thank you! I am just going to take care of myself today.

As i type he sent me a cc: on an email to our friend witht he poly guy stating her want this set ASAP and can he help (we have tought time connecting). isnt that my job to set up?

I will ask him if he would do this or maybe just i will, just have to come up with the question i want answered, i know you only get like 5 min so it better be good.

i do appreciate this, it make me feel better.

Does this polygrapher (?) specialize in adultery? Because some do and would be able to help you with the Qs. If you can't find one like that, you could also put a call out to schoolbus, she has a lot of experience with polys and could help you with your Qs for your situation.

I just spoke to the poly man, but would love advice, he did say my question would be carefully thought out and he had some suggestions, he was helpful and considerate. since i already know about the affairs, i cannot ask did you sex with anyone other than you wife. its called a single issue test.

he does specialize in personal issues as well as criminal, my firned has used him many times.

the other question i need to come up with is what to ask dr. H. on the radio show? I will suggest that my H listen to it. and maybe ask a question, but i really dont want him poking around here too much, this is my place for now to vent. I have mentioned i am communicating on a site, but not more than that. he hasnt pushed it, but at some point like i told NW- i am going to have to be O&H and tell him i have blabbed our D- rate drama all over the internet......

ok i have to stop, i just came across this.... ugghh this sound like him.

Serial Cheaters - Narcissists

A typical reason for infidelity is that one spouse may be a narcissist who often becomes a serial cheater. The narcissist is most likely to have many affairs and will pursue anyone they can manipulate with their boundless words and actions.

Narcissists are self-absorbed and tend to be highly charming. They have a constant need for admiration. They view all events in terms of how the events impact them and them alone. They are master manipulators and feel an "emotional high" with each new conquest. Their behavior is often impulsive which can appear exciting. These individuals lack compassion unless it helps them achieve their goals. They are unwilling to see or consider anything from another person's viewpoint. They will continue the emotional control with a target until the relationship becomes too burdensome. They utilize no moral boundaries in their pursuit of admiration and physical activity from the opposite sex; frequently offering marriage, promises, baptism, children, etc. Literally - whatever the target "needs to hear" in order to close the deal is what the narcissist will say and do. Their targets are usually married which heightens the feeling of conquest. They frequently have several affairs going on at once with no regard to the damage caused by their reckless pursuit of self-gratification. Narcissists develop specialized talents such as crying on cue, "elegantly" deceiving without stumble, saying just the right things at just the right time, etc. all designed to aid in attaining their goal.

Their behavior is more than a lack of self-esteem. It goes to the very core of the individual's personality and is a pervasive aspect of their lifestyle. This character flaw prevents them from keeping marriage vows and in the vast majority of cases narcissists will forever cheat on their spouse(s). It is interesting to note that narcissists rarely divorce and will fight tooth and nail to remain married. This is believed to go along with the "need to be accepted by all" mentality that narcissists possess. As strong as their need is to conquer outside their marriage; they turn into weeping idiots if/when their spouse even suggests divorce.

chickadee, please don't armchair-analyze your WH. Avoid reading those one-size-fits-all analyses. I used to think my FWH was narcissistic, too. Oh, yeah, I read all of that stuff online that proceeds to explain the psyche of strangers. I had to put down the magnifying glass and quit staring at him like a bug. Because he was/is what he was/is: a remorseful wayward who needed to be led out of his desert of entitlement and lack of boundaries.

I understand you desire to understand. Truly, I do. But analyzing his psyche will distract you from the rebuilding that the two of you need to accomplish together.

I agree, but i am a picker.... I am just having a hard time comprehening this. One or 2 i can see that maybe there was something that they thought was lacking in the marrige. this is just alot, and the lies, he told and to all of them too, it was like a game for him. Its just strange. First it was about sex, then it was about passion, the last comment it was about feeling needed. it just all very off for me. He does sound a bit narcissistic. at least i can say yeah i can see that. and not what i am doing now- which is wtf is this....

"Because he was/is what he was/is: a remorseful wayward who needed to be led out of his desert of entitlement and lack of boundaries. " - i dont know where to begin on this.

You know you'll drive yourself nuts trying to figure out your husband's brain, right?

Your thread title:

Stick to the plan.
The great "why?" will not help save your marriage.

I remember


having my time (wasted) with that wall of logic vs no logic.

i know, i know, i just need to figure out why and how this happens to someone.

Okay, here's my loosely-guided secret to accepting my FWH's actions: I just kept repeating to myself: "That is the most stupid, damaging thing he's ever done, or will ever do. How stupid he was. What an absolutely stupid and mindless thing to do..." and any version of that. It helped me. Because you're not going to arrive at an "Ah-ha" moment, chickadee. It will never be clear and understandable to you. You're not going to be able to make a place for this in a well-ordered, sensible world. It's out of order and it makes no sense.

mb, do I see a pattern here?

Yep.

it doesnt make sense!!! thats where i will have difficulty. letting it just not make sense. the resentment would be 2nd.

then there is the side of oh god, this could happen again and again and again, even if i we are committed to the program. just because it seem like a bit of a game to him.

i have the poly next week, so i am loosely waiting to get another bomb or ten. but i asked for it, i know.

Correct.
Now stop trying to force sense into senseless and stoopid.

pattern? what am i missing, that he is stupid? baby steps with me y'all. look now i am picking at you.

ok its only been 20 hours since the last kick in the stomach, hit buy the bus, backed up by the bus.......

pep- how are you feeling?

No, chicka. North was saying that MY post showed a pattern, by my repetition about my husband's actions being 'stupid'. I was calling MY H's actions stupid. Not you or your WH, sweetie.

Easy mistake to make.

People who are lost to themselves, who need & seek external validation of the seedy kind, are not happy.

The wayward kind will often choose the fast-feel-good over the takes-too-long-and-is-too-damn-difficult route.

The only serial cheater worth your while to stick by ~~~> is the one who is deeply suffering , full of remorse, and is now doing the long & difficult route.

Not so hot.
But, it's only physical pain.
Yours is worse.
MUCH MUCH worse


(((( chica ))))

little hyper-sensitive i guess. i like the word idiot better.

so what would i ask dr. harley- i only get one shot. my mind is a blank.

what would he ask??????? where would he begin.....

pep- i am sorry to hear that. i wish there was something i could do, like bring you comfort food. but i have been thinking about you since you posted last night, i was glad to see you on.

Under what conditions should a BW consider staying with a serial adulterer/cheater?

"Idiot" will work nicely. Just slot it in where "stupid" was.

Thanks.
I'm supposed to lay low and slow today.

BLECH

{{{Pep}}} Low and slow is good. Feel better soon!

listen he is a mess, but how do i know how deeply he is suffering, how much remorse, and whats long difficult route. we are working on all of the MB principles, but it that the route. I just dont know how to tell the difference in the remorse, does that make sense?

Well, believe it or not, may I suggest you and H go for a walk together.
When you are a mile from home, ASK HIM.

Are you suffering?
What metaphor does your suffering look like?
Do you think you deserve your suffering?

Have a discussion.LOL
Try not to make a comparison side-by-side suffering my pain vs yours contest with WH.



Ask him:

What are you sorry about?

Ask open ended questions.
And listen.
Do not argue.
Think of it as intelligence gathering.

I see a ton of hope for you guys.

Are you suffering?
What metaphor does your suffering look like?- this will be deep for him
Do you think you deserve your suffering?- he said his pain and feelings are nothing in compairison to what he has done to me. and things like the pain i feel is beacause i did this to you.

I should type this up and let you all decipher it. you would have better insight.

he did write a note about he was a liar, monster, mess,disppointed, weak it goes on.
he is definetly suffering,


Have a discussion.LOL
Try not to make a comparison side-by-side suffering my pain vs yours contest with WH.

iam not even up to my pain yet. so that shouldnt be an issue

he said he was glad he got caught so it could all end.

i will ask him, i may not walk a mile.

My H said the same thing. He said he wanted to end it but didn't know how.

I remember, about 9 months into recovery: I LB'd my H in a huge way. He was distraught. I was distraught. I was down to 113 lbs that day, courtesy of the Infidelity Diet. And I just laid him out. OH, yeah. I let him have it. And I'm not proud about that. It is not one of my finer moments. I was not a poster child for MB that day.

At the end of my diatribe, I was panting for air (you read it right.) My H was standing there with tears streaming down his face. I was standing there, fists clenched, looking sick and scrawny after losing so much weight. We stared at each other and said "If people could see the results of infidelity, they would never get started." And he fell to his knees at my feet.

I can't be in my H's skin, but I felt his pain that day. I hope you don't have to feel that.

the infidelity diet is not good for me either- concerned. down to about 105 mat be less, not looking, not good, he bought me soup all i can stomach.

no worries about your tirade, my grand mother used to say you gotta let it out, its not good when its in it hurts more. better out than in is a bit of a family joke( farts or stress). what made you so distressed?

i think i/we am getting there , i am shaking, we are both distraught. i can imagine it gettting worse...

i asked the questions..

what are you sorry for- "for who i am and for what i have done to you"

are you suffering.. "if we stop talking that would be suffering. i am dying inside. i have a hard time saying suffering b/c you are supporting me, suffering is without you and this, the suffering i feel is that i caused this and i cant fix it, if that is suffering"- suffering is a hard word. also "getting hit with a hammer in the finger hurts, suffering is having to live with the pain of it"

are you suffering- "suffering watching you" yada yada

he wanted to see this list that he gave me of everything- he said he is panicked about the poly and wanted to make sure everything was on the list, he doesnt want to fail bc thats the end- he reviewed and there was a minor change but nothing more. and that there were no gaps,

i let him read 2 things, one the definition that i had posted- he was shocked- he said well it sound like me to close, it gives me more/and now less clarity to who i am.= crying more. I told him i was instructed not to armchair analyze you, he said yeah i get it but it sound just like me... oh sht- annoyed that he could be a cliche.

and the post that started with Typical Virginia winter� it struck me a few weeks ago, made him break down, he wants the typical day....

i kissed him, thanked him and he left. which is better i am getting some sleep.

thoughts?

Man, Chick. Your posts are almost impossible to comprehend. Sorry girl...has to be said. If you're tapping at an iphone or something, maybe change devices.

I thought you lost those nails???

i did but this new laptop sucks also it a new hp laptop and it one key off, with the mouse pad that kills me! i agree! i cannot type normally but this sucks. maybe the old pc would do me better

this forum should also incude spell check. going to get the wireless keyboard tomorrow, you will see the improvement i promise

just one question really needed for the poly since you've thought you had it all...

"Does Chick know everything there is to know about your cheating now?"

Or however you word that question. Cause that's really what you want to know at this point.

thats basically what the poly guy came up with or something like are you deliberately with holding info..... they reword it in three ways. we have a meeting scheduled before, just me.

"The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"- which one of you said that?

I have a call for the radio show all set and hope to get more clarity.

When are you going to be on the radio show?

You may want to jot some notes down of what you want to say/ask if you think you may get nervous. Just in case

today... yes i am nervous, i have been on the raido before but this is different. i think i am going to throw up.

chicka, gosh, I have complete stage fright and I was so nervous too ~ they made it so easy for me! They are so friendly and they will guide you right along. Hang in there!!

did you hear? let me know your thoughts. WH is emailing to see if he can get on the show, should be interesting.

i am just unsure that he will be able to maintain a new life like this given his past.. big concern for me.

more discussions on how he has see the light, he didnt know it could be so good, as it was while we were doing the program. but is that just another addiction per se?

Yes, they said they have a lot of hope for your situation!

Also as for your H emailing, that's a great idea. I really wanted for Dr Harley to talk to my H and it ended up working out great.

You could email them and let them know who your H is (that's what I did) and that he has emailed them so they will probably be sure to get him on soon.

Has your H come back home yet?

he slept home last night.. we were up late talking. guess what he did it!! he is on today, i am gonna trow up again.

I just got finished listening, for some reason my computer will not let me listen to them untill they are in archives. I'm looking forward to hearing what they say to your WH.

Ive been following your post from the beginning and really rooting for you.

You said that yesterday, chicka, but you sounded cool as a cucumber

Anyway, that's awesome! I will time my drive out to Trader Joe's so that I can listen...lol

thank jlamp- did you find out any info yet? give an update on you post been looking for you.

I am almost to nervous to listen, like the next bus is gonna hit me or something.

he is very nervous

I am listening now. Good job, Chickadee!!

Chickadee Part 1

Chickadee Part 2 of 3

Chickadee Part 3 of 3


Chickadee's husband Part 1

Chickadee's husband Part 2 of 2

I have nothing but enormous respect for your husband, chickadee. It took alot of balls for him to confess all that he did. That is really amazing coming from someone who has been lying for so long. He jumped off the cliff. Too bad every serial cheater WS doesn't do that!!

Same here, I was impressed, chicka. The stuff Dr Harley said about seeing his taker was involved, etc, just wow. Would have never thought of that but it makes so much sense!

How are you feeling?

Dr Harley has a good crap detector too and even he said he believed MrChickadee..

What do you think of asking him to post here?

It may help to not lose any momentum once the dust sort of settles.

i was going to thow up the whole time. little embarrassed i guess he was too. he said he felt bad interrupting.

i just dead tired, and allergies have finally got me too.

dr. harley said he was good at detecting, that was part of the reason that pushed me to ask, he wouldnt have done it but i asked.

i dont want to listen, ughh.

the taker stuff was good, he had emailed me that he may talk to him about that if he agreed. I wish he had longer... they had me on for a long time i thought it was a 5min thing.

i printed a post that began with the words "Typical Virginia winter� gray/brown, damp, too warm to snow, but too cold to leave your coat unbuttoned. It was a Wednesday." he liked it. baby steps on getting him on here. i think y'all may kill him at first, but that is his problem.

i have been keeping gloveoils tag on my counter, and i gave it to him to read, he just got it.

When you walk to the edge of all the light you have and take that first step into the darkness of the unknown, you must believe that one of two things will happen: There will be something solid for you to stand upon, or, you will be taught how to fly.

he is becoming curious about you all, maybe i will bring it up....

thank you all!!!!!

If you're worried about spellchecking, you can download the Firefox internet browser. It comes with spellcheck.

new keyboard but still cannot type. will install firefox, thanks for the tip!

how would you suggest i update my sig line?

just "way too many to type"? suggestions?

Chicka - good day for you - sorry to be late on the uptake on your question on who it was who said "I don't have to be married that badly" - that was me. 14 years ago this month.

Tell him we like him and said to get his [censored] on here.

He asked if "my Friends" posted anything, that was funny, at least i dont feel like i am lying about what i am doing online, and i can look and post with freedom. We will work on him, should he see my post or know my name?

he ended the night with, i had a good day, thanks- i woke up in the middle and he came down to see if i was ok. that was nice.

now the problem is me, how do i get back to the program. my mind is such a trigger, i am the elephant and i remember everything, so it all keeps playing over and over. maybe i am still unsure that its not all out (poly is wednesday), or maybe i dont know if i can get over it, i just dont know what is holding me back- i know its new news again, but i jumped pretty fast the first 2 times. this eating sleeping thing is hard.

ps. the OW#1, still dont know how to post them ( the bunnie burner) was searching for me online, I got an email from mylife saying that she was, great way to start the day. also fathers death anniversary, and i woke up at the exact time he died this AM, for a man who was never around, maybe he was knocking at my brain- or my mom nudged him.

Aw, man! Does this mean we have to clean up and be on our best behavior??

You two did great on the radio show!

not at all! he needs a bit of reality and he can take it, didnt you hear the NY accent on him.

had a good weekend.. but was a bit down yesterday.

is there something written about fog of the BS? i am struggling to get out of the my fog now, he is right there, doing it all, no fog for him, actually he wont let me go- physicaly just constant hugging.... like if he lets me go i may leave or something. he open and talking, trying to take care of me. but my mind is just racing. i am very unsure. maybe just dead tired- slept for 10 hrs.

at least before i felt like i was the driver, now i dont know. it this normal for the BS? that once its all done you just crash?

If there is something please post a link. I'm not there anymore but I remember it.

I think for my part I was just thinking "ok, dont open up becuase the next bus is around the corner just waiting to hit me". Well that bus never came back and I started opening back up again. I remember telling my FWH (so happy to add the F)I was sorry I was so distant and could tell he was trying I just could not seem to get my head straight. I remember thinking it felt like a fog. I just thought it was the meds I had taken to calm me.

Remember it is an emotional ......




Yes.
Allow your H to be the safe place for you to fall apart.
He will know that you need him. Very powerful motivator for most men.
He will know he has a purpose, also very powerful.

It gets better. I promise.
I pinky promise.

I'd agree with that analogy!

pep- you promised, pinky swear is big!.... i see what you are saying. it def is a motivator. is he plan a-ing me now???

just waiting on the bus still, maybe it will get easier like the last 3 time, its just alot to digest. we have the wednesday poly, so still waiting.

counselor thinks we could write a book if this works she has not see something like us, good or bad dont know how to take that. regardless once the panic and sleep are in check i will be ok.

can someone write a BS emotion post, i love the lyrics post- i have about 10 to post.

havent asked him to post at this point letting him think about things, get stronger and stand on his own, in our own life for the first time. make sense>?

uggh listened to the radio- is that me? so strange to hear yourself, where is that broadcast? regardless i hope it helps someone out there.

poly tomorrow............ i am dreading this, he is excited. (ok - i will just except that) let him look at the forum last night he saw what i got about it. he guessed my name immediately, guess i have to stop calling the pets chicken...

looked at the begining of my posts made him sad, was that wrong?

he told me he would post if i wanted him to, i told him, he could if he thought it would be good for him. thoughts??? ok he is worse than me on typing, and he has no fake nails. havent switched browzers i am ust to faithful to IE.

Wouldn't hurt, he might get something out of it and be able to discuss things that he isn't quite sure how to broach with you yet.

I think the rule is that you would both stay off each other's threads, not reading or commenting on them.

i will follow the rules.

the bus is on the corner today... hope it doesnt hit me again.

i will try to be more positive

Will be thinking of you today. {{{chicka}}}

Thoughts are with you. Hoping all the busses ran out of gas. Let us know how it goes.

the bus had no gas, he passed very high. the appointment scheduling got it all out of him i guess ( but who knew since i had so many false starts), so a sigh for now, but you know my mind it tick tick ticking.

note to WS's please do not ever let it get to the point where your BS has to resort to a poly, your BS's have given you all opportunities to come clean and you dont over and over, please do.. driving out to the appointment over an hour was painful, speaking to a stranger about what has happened, painful and embarrassing, looking at your WS, as you leave the room- to the unknown, heartbreaking. Waiting in the lobby with the receptionist looking at you for over 1 1/2 hours- all the while she know why you are there, embarrassing again. just tell your BS, dont drag your life into the rut of a criminal, thats what these poly people do all day- catch criminals. dont do it to your spouse and dont do it to yourself.


Probably one of the lowest points in my life. - i dont know if i will ever look back and laugh.

he did apoloigize for putting me thru it.


I guess the option is recovery for me.

btw- what does a post nup agreement look like? i would like to add that to the list of EP.

Wow, I'm so glad to hear this. Ive been checking during the day to see if you had posted.

thank you. very long day. 5 hour process total. horrible

on top of it ended up at cardio md this AM, with heart palps. have to wear a halter- please i am 42. i told him it was stress, echo agreed nothing physically wrong. but not good, to carry too much stress.

Sorry that the process was horrible...

I bluffed my WH with a poly and he supposedly told me everything, I was 98% sure I had the full truth so I didn't follow through. There have been more than a few times over the past few years that I wish I had just followed through with it. It's good that you won't have to wonder.

Re the postnup, that wouldn't be a "EP" but more a condition of yours to stay in the M. Would your H be willing to do it? You would need to see a lawyer to get more details on that.

I had palpitations too and they were so scary. How are you eating and sleeping?

Hang in there, chicka!

finally slept for 8 hours! eating is slow, he it trying to force the food! the weightloss doesnt help the palps.

the poly is vague in a way, you dont get graphic details of everything it was more like is there anything else you have not told. if that help you, i am sure you got it all, stop wondering you have come way to far!

i am goign to look into the EP. he would do it with out unless i leave him pennyless, HA!

now my problem is the graphic details of the truth, thats what hit me last night. its just so much to absorb. I have to get back into my plan A mode, its just a bit hard to get thru the thoughts.

Happy to hear you got a good night's sleep

Have you thought about ADs to help you through this time? My sister and many others have used them here with success. I don't do well with medicine, I just exercised instead (it is supposed to work as good/better than ADs)...

Are you two continuing your UA time or is it tough for you right now?

I would like to stay away from them right now, I cant take an advil normally. breathing things.

we are actually pretty much spending all of our out of work time together, i has been helpful in getting thru this past week. I think. I have had friends say why dont you get some time apart come out for dinner. I am just not there yet. I dont know why.

He actually requested that we get back to reviewing the needs, the day before i said, you should really look at your needs sheets... he said wow i havent done one of those on that list, in my head i said yeah that why you have no food for dinner and im not ripping my clothes off. i just smiled and said it would probably help that we get back on track.

this week has just been alot, so back on schedule...

How do i deal with the images in my head? it is so much, i feel a bit insecure and maybe like i am not going to be enough. I dont know i am dealing with many A's and variety. just makes me a bit sick and then angry then insecure then..... list goes on. hard to explain, but i know someone out there gets it.

looking for advice on how to get past the thoughts? any help?

he has been very reassuring and knows this will take time, its just eatingme up inside.

I'm sorry Dee,
I know what you are going through and all I can say is it does get better. I went through that for about a month and I can say it was not a good month. I literally blew up at my husband at one point.... He sat there and took it all then when I got it all out, he sat and held me untill I was spent.

I'm not good at the "turning my thoughts around" thing so I cant really help you there. I wish I had the answers for you but your husband really seemed to be on board with the program so maybe he can help.

Just a random thought here but maybe you can have a code word or something like that set up with him and when you need more reasurance instead of bringing up the affair which makes you and him think of it even more. When he see or hears that "code" he will know you just need to hear how much you mean to him and you are the only thing he needs in his life. He may just be one of those men that you have to let him know what you need and when you need it. My husband just knows now, I cant explain it but he can read me so much better now.

He seemed good at writing things down, maybe he can write you a note you can keep with you at all times and you can read it when you are starting to have the thoughts.

I know you want to stay away from AD's but what about something more like a zanex. Something you dont take every day but only when you start to feel panic and obsesive.

I'm on Effexor (I was already on this before the D-Day)becuase it also helps with the OCD of going over and over it in my head but I DO NOT recommend it for someone that only needs it for a short time becuase it is REALLY hard to come off it, it has major withdrawl symptoms.

Bump for Dee.

I know this is one of the toughest parts and I don't really have any good answers. Thought you guys would have some suggestions.

thank you jlamp! i needed a bump.

chickadee,

Since your H is onboard enough to have spoken to Dr H and to have done the polygraph, I think you should seize the moment and sign up for the online course if you can possibly afford it. If you do not do this now, you will probably find, as I did, that your H's enthusiasm for "recovery" wanes gradually, then your marriage slides back into its recent condition, and then in a year or two, when you realise that you desperately need to sign on for the course, your H won't be enthusiastic.

Your H and mine have similarities in that their affairs have gone on for years, and yet they never wanted to leave us. (I listened to you both on the radio show.) Your H is a serial offender, whereas mine had a PA and a lingering EA with the same woman over several years. Both seem (to me) to be terribly sorry on D Day, and to be terribly committed to recovery, but in my H's case, that zeal wears off after a year or so.

Take this opportunity to register for the online programme. I have just registered me and my H on it, and it seems to be the best thing I could ever have done. Your H will be accountable to a coach, and you will not have to be the baddy, telling him what he is doing or not doing correctly. It is like having Dr Harley permanently on standby.

The coaches will help you, too (not just your H), to do what you need to do to rebuild the marriage, and not let you flounder or get discouraged.

Clearly, you need your H's agreement to participate. Do not sign up and commit all that money unless he agrees! But now is the moment that he probably will agree. If you miss this opportunity, then, like me, you will probably be stuck in a non-recovery for years.

Carpe diem, chickadee!

we are working with jennifer weekly, i dont want to overwhelm him. is that enough now? the prob is not him its me and the triggers.

You feeling any better today? I think it will just take time but I know that does not make it easier for you now.

I forgot that fact when I posted about the online course. Of course, Jennifer or Steve are more than enough for now! They are exactly what you need when you are in a crisis and need help.

I only spoke up for the online programme because it is a systematic, year-long programme that takes you through all Dr Harley's recommendations and makes you do written exercises. From what I can gather, your coach will tell you what exercise to tackle next, depending on the specific needs for your marriage, but I think you have to do everything eventually - all the worksheets. You cannot focus on, say, angry outbursts but leave something else out.

I just wanted you to use your H's remorse to get full participation from him. When he is fully into MB he won't withdraw from it, but if he gets the idea that things are okay between you and then his efforts lapse later, you might find it hard to get him to agree to seeking any more help.

Good for you about the coaching!

no lapsing for him, he actually got his own copy of HN/HN- i have it on kindle and another workbook, which we are already doing with Jen, but he wanted it. I did tell him to look online also.

he is definately into it, we reviewed our needs last night at his prompting.

last week, I wrote a list of all the racing thoughts in my head. we were talking last night and i gave it to him, he was blown away and upset/sad that he did this to me. i had a bit of a panic attack that i let all of the thoughts out of my head. he just held on to me, this was the first time i really broke down. i am glad the thoughts are out of my head now.

ok now how so i get to where i was with fulfilling the SF needs???? struggling...... thoughts creep in head. i was doing sooooo good before the last confession. dont want to fall into the trap again.....

It's a marathon, sweetie, not a sprint Healing takes time. Be gentle with yourself.
{{{chicka}}}

im trying.. thank you! this is just all consuming on so many levels.

Why don't you guys plan a trip or something? A vacation may do you some good...something different. I think sometimes it's nice to get a break from the same-old-same-old, especially the drama/fall-out from the affair. You know--just to do something *normal* again.

Hang in there, it sounds like you are heading in the right direction.

the last weekend/trip was supposed to be our renewal............that was march. we are headed in the right direction i hope, going to spend the weekend fixing the dumb boat ( i say dumb bc it so much work, harder than this - and less rewarding), maybe spend the night on it, who knows?? trying to get back to plan a- ing it. it was fun, and rewarding.

normal- is new to me.

My husband and I rented a cabin in the woods for the weekend about a month after d-day. Before MB it would have been a very boring weekend. I was not looking forward to it at all because we always had to have "something to do". I took a deck of cards and a few board games that could be played by 2 players.....I don't think the cards made it out of the car and the only time the tv even got turned on was right before we left. We sat outside on the porch swing and watched the birds during the morning and the fire at night and just talked and held each other.

That was my turning point. I think I posted here right before we went because I was worried the driving would be a trigger but we were so in tune with each other it was wonderfull.

Congratulations!! That sounds awesome! Woo-hoo!!!!

Yeah, it's kind of strange sometimes.

Luvsdavid makes a good point about how the most innocuous trips can sometimes be the best ones. Sometimes things that seem hokey or boring can be a lot of fun

Checking in on you, chickadee. How are things going? Even though there are bound to good days and bad days, hopefully things are gradually getting better?

things are going ok, lets say a good day today, we had a checkup with jennifer last night, she told me what you all have, i should take it easy! she gave him a to do list.

the trigger thing is hard, my H is doing great, he really is working on this very hard. and he is helping me now. I am on a stupid halter monitor, now thats giving me the dreads. I really think that the bunnie burner is going to rear her ugly head, i have a gut feeling. he has his plan of whats supposed to happen, but what happens if she gets to me?

Also thoughts, H lent Baby momma money. I can 1. call it a loss. 2. donate it to charity. 3. have her pay my DSS instead. thoughts? and how do i communicate my plan to her?


I really have to start on his EN's, I gave myself a D- last week.

I am working on a plan for this weekend, hokey and all.

look i just talked myself into a frenzy! thats funny, really.

I have to get my sense of humor back, anyone seen it?

thank you for checking in!

Sorry to hear about the halter. How are your palpitations doing? If they are still troubling you, have you ever thought about yoga? It is something that I discovered after dday and it truly helped me ~ very theraputic and helps to ease the stress and anxiety.

How would bunny boiler get through? Have all the avenues in which she could contact you two been eliminated/changed?




Numbers 2 and 3 can only be an option if your DSS can handle it because NC is for both of you ~ you cannot have any contact with her. What does your H think? Might be a good thing to POJA. If the $$ is not a big concern for you to get back, I would probably go with 1 just to avoid any further drama with her...



Yes, awesome!

they are just dbl checking, i have alot of MD friends so they are watching out for me. was doing yoga before, and i just called to rebook today!! I loved it and it did work keeping my stress down. H is gonna try it also, should be very funny.

yes everything is changed, the only reason i can think is bc she a psycho, she knows where i work, from before i pulled all of sites down, fb linkedn... if you google me i can still be found thru work things. i know i am being crazy, but i know how to find alot about people and she has alot of time on her hands, and shes desperate to find a good man. HA!

is enough money that it would help 2 or 3. i will ask DSS, see how he feels. Sad and silly i dont want it in my house, you pay for what you get.... that was mean.

Ok, I am remembering the OW from the beginning of your thread now. That's the one that was sent a cease and desist letter? Don't hesitate to get an RO if she makes any type of contact again.... Hopefully she has moved on if you haven't heard anything for this long. *fingers crossed*

That's soooo great that your H will do yoga with you! I have been trying to get my H to do it for a while now...IMO he needs it (oops, was that a DJ? lol) If you are interested in a yoga DVD, Kristen McGee has a really good Power Yoga. It's got great reviews on Amazon and it's very affordable!

ok i am a witch!- baby momma emailed h 2x last night and 1 to me.

what do i do? i am shaking-

1st week no real A drama.

the NC letter was clear and i sent it!

Time to close those email addresses or block the mails from the witch!

Closing the email is probably the best and get new ones.

Okay, calm down sweetie. I know that icky feeling. Is there anyway that you can set up your email program to automatically forward all emails unopened to another folder? You may need to hang on to them for legal purposes down the road, but for now you can ignore them. She has nothing to say to you or your WH that can't be said through a legal process if it comes to that. Force her to go that route. Don't acknowledge receipt. If you can't resist the temptation to read them, forward them to a trusted third party (preferably an attorney's assistant) to filter any important messages. I don't recall your whole story but just because someone makes a claim or threatens you with legal action doesn't mean they will prevail. You are under no obligation to even acknowledge her existence until and unless she forces the issue legally. If she continues with this behavior then you and you WH will have legal options to shut her down.

Breathe. She is not important to your marriage. You and your WH need to present a united front and decide how to handle this together. Hugs!!

ok update- the emails were not from her but from DSS. but the name in the to field was hers and the email address is his. on mine also, why would that happen? until you clicked on the name you would have thought it was her.

h was great, but he saw how a silly mistake can upset the apple cart. still shaking, but am feeling better. thanks pb and pm, you were right on it.

how did the name thing happen? any techys out there? just the sight of the name set me off. on all 3 emails, it said her name as the contact and was his address.

That email address can be set up in your contacts with her name on it and it will show that way....

OR you can configure an email account and it will ask you what name to put on it and her name is there instead of DSS.

I would check your contacts first and see if that email address is under her name

(I still have OW's email address in my outlook and it will come up as "the slut" if she tries to contact my FWH.)

she was deleted, it was very strange. my IT guys are confused. when you hovered on it DDS pix was there. just annoying. i am fulfilling RN big time! so i think i will get a c+ or a b this week. power tools and all. i know y'all thought the fake nails she is a princess, not at all! maybe a B+.

emailed DSS that i needed to skype him to discuss the loan, he needs the money- but i dont want to put him in the middle of this- money and sex and parents.

everyday i am thankful that i found you all! you have been a savior to my sanity.

Hey chickadee,

I'd agree that not pursuing the debt yourself is best and that it should be left to DSS to collect if he desires.

Either way, you and your husband have zilch to do with it.

Why don't you just ditch the email address entirely? People do it all the time and it'd be one less thing to worry about. Food for thought.

Hope next week goes great for you guys!

well the weekend has gone great. fulfilled lots of EN's! i think i will get an A this week.

but i am still triggered, alot, random thoughts racing in and out of my head. making myself a bit nuts. how do you put the thoughts aside, doing great things all weekend and each time i do a snicker to myself, saying yeah this is great but..........

Happy to hear the weekend went well!

I haven't ever read this thread but many have said it was helpful to them....maybe you can get some good mileage out of it too:
Managing Memories and Triggers

I actually read that and downloaded some things. though it got me a bit stressed. so much info.

It it normal to wonder why now, all of a sudden you are head over heals??? i know H is glad i didnt kick his butt to the curb, but i just am wondering, is this one of your lies also? maybe reading into too much.

Hope you all are having a wonderful memorial day and relaxing!

Looking on-line to book a vacation as directed! Looking at ireland, suggestions? we will do some family/ancestry town things. but then just expore.

Probably would do you wonders.

I've always wanted to go to Belfast (our ancestral hometown, so to speak) but their politics have been a bit rocky for a while. Might try the independent Ireland?

Those nagging feelings/doubts/questions will fade over time. But it kind of sucks to have good thoughts ruined like that.

It may be that you just need to give yourself more time. The first six months were super rocky for me. I think the exercise instead of ADs and keeping myself very busy (including lots of fun UA time with my H) were key.



Your feelings are normal but just keep (trying to) redirect yourself ~ your H has done everything you have asked of him, that is a great sign and even Dr Harley feels he is sincere!



A trip is a wonderful idea and I believe Dr Harley suggests this early in R. What does your H want to do? This is a great time for you two to start trying out POJA

i think i am getting stressed bc tomorrow is back to work and we wont be with each other, i used to do that when he traveled, like have a fight right before, so silly. - maybe we are spending too much time together!- kidding

we did do POJA, i gave him 2 of my choices and asked for 2 of his. he picked this. but doesnt seem too overly excited, maybe have to rediscuss.

redirect redirect redirect...

hope you had a nice weekend

That's ok--gives you guys something more to talk about until you both find something that you want to do.

It's a great opportunity.

ok have a question.. heart monitor showed palps, yeah i knew that... 50 different segments in one day, i told you i was stressed and triggered (sarcam)... nothing physically wrong- weightloss isnt helping.

he suggested i try a beta blocker to stop the palps. Listen i really dont take anything. but i guess my choices are beta, xanax, or i am starting yoga again as well as some relaxation techns. Any suggestions?

has anyone heard of calmclinic?

i think this whole md think have stopped them, this is ridiculous that i am letting myself get this way.

Sorry to hear that you're having these issues.

Do you exercise regularly? A quick walk around the neighborhood every day after work would be a good idea if you aren't already on a regimen.

this is all stress induced.

i bought a new bike and trainer, will set up tonight. exercise doesnt really calm me down. i actually hate to exercise, i do like yoga, though

i have to stop the triggers, what ever they are different each time.

I'll bet that, once your life gets back on track, this will kind of abate. My affair diet was about 15-lbs, two packs of smokes per day and numerous cups of coffee and Cokes. Ditching the cigs and cutting back on the caffeine helped, but (to me) it's actually doing something fun/recreational/physical, etc. that makes a bigger difference.

And I hate exercise, too.

Have you guys planned that trip, yet? A quick weekend getaway may be in order in the meantime. Time for a jump-start, IMO, so that you aren't in "discussing the marriage-mode" every day. Know what I mean?

i know it will. i am doing all the bad things also, but cutting most and adding heathier things at least trying to...

Going to get golf back on the radar, playing on monday...

trip talk tonight...

omg the discussing the marrige mode IS EVERY day, (its alot) but i am also not going to discourage or give the perception that work can stop for one moment with H.

Were your ears ringing? My H and I were discussing your palpitations while we were out running errands (he's in the medical field)

I think you need to cool off on the M and R talks and make getting the palpitations under control a top priority.

When they were really awful for me, I was not taking care of myself ~ not eating, drinking enough water or getting enough sleep. Is this true for you? Even if the eating is tough, make sure you are hydtrated. If you are having trouble sleeping, try melatonin ~ it's natural and safe.

Are you drinking coffee? I think you are supposed to lay off the caffeine if you are having palps.

My H said the beta blockers will help you but won't help the anxiety. Have you thought about trying the Xanax until you get your exercise regimen established?

Now for the exercise, have you given more thought to having dvds around? I have been falling off the exercise wagon my whole life and after dday have finally stuck with it. Having DVDs in the house is what keeps me on track. A good friend of mine recommended one of the MTV Yoga workouts. She said it was the equivalent of drinking a warm glass of milk before bed If you want to know which one it was, lmk and I'll get it for you.

Chicka, stay away from beta blockers if you can. They come with a whole host of side effects that aren't good.

I agree with everyone who is suggesting exercise. Walk. Walk. Run. Walk. Physical activity manufactures natural endorphins that will help.

Were your ears ringing? My H and I were discussing your palpitations while we were out running errands (he's in the medical field) - they were burning- my ears that is....

I am also in the field I am I am not going to take them. Calling chief tomorrow, there is no need for this��..


I think you need to cool off on the M and R talks and make getting the palpitations under control a top priority.= I agree! As North also said. Too much!


When they were really awful for me, I was not taking care of myself ~ not eating, drinking enough water or getting enough sleep. Is this true for you? Even if the eating is tough, make sure you are hydrated. If you are having trouble sleeping, try melatonin ~ it's natural and safe.

===Water water water, stopping coffee again tomorrow, I did on D-day one and I thought it was better but how many d days later, should have known. Not sleeping- got some EMDR tapes, very bad nightmares

My H said the beta blockers will help you but won't help the anxiety. Have you thought about trying the Xanax until you get your exercise regimen established?

- exactly!!! But I still want to stay away from anything at this point, not the exercise= the Xanax.

Well.... I had diarrhea the mouth, feel much better no palps at all, first time in months!. All the crap that I have been storing. No AO or DJ just the way I am feeling. It�s out. like his truths, now let�s see�

I have been the one who has held this up for over 4 mos. And he has been working very hard ! I know and respect that, and love it; I just never let him know how I was feeling in my heart, sad and angry, over what I lost. I have been plan a-ing it like a charm, but forgetting about myself (taker coming in- ooh). I love him and he loves me I know that, but I need to love myself also. I have taken care of my family for over 30+ years (disabled mom, crazy bro and him) and have never really thought about myself. Wow this has been an eye opener.

Ball is in his court to step up a bit and take care of me a bit. I am not going to let this let me physically, that just opens a can that is endless, I know how that goes, and that�s not where I will let myself get to.

If I have to take something to sleep I will, but I am already relieved. And he was great but he�s very sad, that he made me this way and he can�t fix it right now����

Btw the quote thing still can get it�����.. Too embarrassed to practice on my own thread.

Hey now, no reason to go completely cold-turkey!

A co-worker recently quit drinking soft drinks and said that cutting back on all that sugar really made a difference. Food for thought.

I know what you mean and think we all tend to forget how to relax or to "be ok" once the dust starts to settle.

I think getting that "ok" back is the key here. So go plan that trip and have some fun!

Talk to your husband about it. He's probably thinking the same thing.

we agreed to take the weekends off from talking about the M.
went to therapist talked about my rant, he was upset by things i said- i actually feel so much better getting it off my chest. he was upset that he made me feel the way i do, progress..

great night last night- we discussed our anniversarys- next week first date, and the week after wedding= he wanted to know if i wanted to do anything- since the days were importnat to me. I say no i am ok with not doing anything- because that marrige is over (was that bad) i did say for my new life- i am going to want a REALLY big ring this time ( its a joke- we had no money when we got married), he said i know it may be too soon but when can i ask you to marry me again?

ok- first night our without each other, not really any dreads- we both played golf at outings, and txted each other all day, so far so good, the palps seem to have disapated....

question- look i know i am no youngin, but what if the SF leads to ahem... should i be cautious( protective)i know is only almost 24 years, that i have know him, but i dont want to rush into anything.... any who knows it could happen...

i think he is secretly hoping it will, but oye that would be a mother load, no pun intended.

thoughts?

I didnt think you were supposed to have secrets? Have you guys talked about it?

he booked a trip for next week!

the other day, i had a trigger, his prompting (send me an email that was curt). it got me onthe crazy roll... looked on the phone tracker and saw a number that i didnt know and couldnt track, so i said 'who is xyz" he didnt know, he called back and it was a company he was working with but on the mobist it came up as a female name- he was so puzzled by how i knew it was a girls name, i think he forgot that he has the mobis on his phone- thats too funny to me.. i didnt remind him, though.

we are going to get in trouble from jennifer tonight- didnt do homework so well. we agreed that was have, have, have to fix this and come up with a better plan, we just have had so many work obligations this week.

looking forward to the weekend to reconnect and do our homework. will didcuss the SF things.

Even though Jennifer will give you a 2x4, I will as well.

I know things come up. But things will ALWAYS come up. Instead of finding excuses not to do something, you need to find reasons to do them. Take care.

yes we got the 2X4 and have to report in now- i love it! but that was good for us, we are putting the review as a priority.

so the vacation is planned- he pretty much did it himself, i am very glad he did, now he sees that the juggling is not that easy.

we are going away this weekend, it happends to be our anniversary. not sure how to deal with this..........

i guess i am not that thrilled with our old anniversary, but its still hard... i guess it a trigger and all, just bummed.

Good job on the trip, glad to hear that you are getting away for a little while. Keep it up and those nagging feelings will start to fade.

It seems that he's trying, try not to forget that y'all have this second chance here. See if this trip can replace that "old" one that you referenced. Shoot, you could always just change your anniversary date to coincide with your new marriage.

Dee. My anniversary is tomorrow.

My husband and had always used the day we met (jan 6th)as our anniversary untill that was one of my d-days this year. I don't think I will ever be able to celebrate that day again.

We are using our real wedding date now which is tomorrow. What sucks is I have the flu. Oh well we can cuddle all day.

Im glad you are going away.....use it as a start to the new life.

the day we met and our anniversary are in the same week practically so this week has been a bit off.

When i get married again, like i said before i am not rushing into anything! that will be the date, righ now i just have the old one, and triggers.

luvsd-oh yeah, i also have the flu, feeling pretty icky but 48hrs have done wonders, it too shall pass. you will feel better tomorrow, i hope you have a very special day tomorrow.


nagging feelings will start to fade, nagging feelings will start to fade, nagging feelings will start to fade. shoot when i click my red shoes it doesnt work....

we are leaving tomorrow and i just, diaherrah of the mouth to him, going on a tibit from mikesm forum,

how do you just be calm like nothing has happened?

well, he said he is just enoying every moment knowing it could end, like dying,,,,


ok- but i dont feel that way... i told him about the constant triggers and everything, he is devastated, but thats my reality, bunnie burner can show up on my door step as could baby momma which i wouldnt doubt she's weak and we still have the connection DSS. the addition built on the home, the trips, the planning, where was he??? whats in the mail, what email could i get, that stupid classmates crap that keeps sending me emails that some 50+ year from her city is searching me ( yes it her). constant triggers

as you may have heard from his chat on the radio, "i love my life, i love my wife". but i am left cleaning it up and really its not my problem, its hard to see him enjoying his new found marrige and life,,, i am being great so i guess its my fault.

anniversary on sunday, my own rant and pity party,

just feels a little like i am giving up who i am? does that make sense?

welcome th 2x4's to smak some sense into me. please

It makes sense to me and, I imagine, most everyone else as well. Nope, it doesn't seem fair that the betrayed has the burden of fixing everything. It sucks, it stinks, it's his fault and I've thought the exact same thing.

But, wouldn't you say that it's a bit of a DJ to assume that your husband is just enjoying life fat dumb and happy without a care in the world? Wouldn't you say that he's probably dealing with his own demons as well?

Or, at least, we assume that he is and his comment about "living for the moment" seems to say that he's still walking on eggshells. Why don't you ask him about it from that point of view..."Hey, this sucks for me, how about you?" You know, a little common ground helps sometimes.

For me, that feeling passes and I hope it does for you as well.

As for triggers, ditch them where possible. Start with the classmates thing, block emails from that sender and send them to the trash. You've already got the ex blocked via email, right? Did you ever change your email? Might be worth doing for a bit of peace of mind.

Hey, you'll get better so try to enjoy this trip, ok!!!

This will be common until you move from the severe grief.

I'll be a cad and quote myself;

Hi Chicka! Have fun on your trip.

Somewhat of a tj but maybe seeing a WH who has no understanding of EPs will make you feel better about your H who actually seems like he is interested in protecting you??

Check out Chris1972's thread. He screwed me over for a third time (dday on my birthday, thank you, WH!) and only a miracle will save our M now.

hey susieQ please start another thread for you as many people want to know how your coping with this latest betrayal.

(((SusieQ)))

Sorry for the t/j chicka....

Everybody here is thinking about you SusieQ. You have been an amazing help to so many posters. So sorry to see what is happening with you now. Lean on this community! We are here for you!

End of t/j

i take a t/j for you anyday! susie you have been on my mind all morning, i was just shocked to see your name and then got very angry with Chris, and am having to bite my tounge, the vets are on him, but i do want to slap him, you have been so helpful to me. felt like posting some of the things you wrote to me the first few week, they got me thru this, as has all of the advice here!



hhh- not cad- have been reading that over and over....

i know he has his own demons and he is walking on egshells, he just does it better than i do i guess, at least this week.

susie my thoughts are with you.

Or, maybe he does it for you.

FWW sucks up a lot. I know she does because when I hit my lows and crumble, she follows.

This may be even more true because he is... a him. A male. A man. He is trying to be "the strong one," trying to be "the rock."

You could always tell him in passing "It is okay for you to hurt, and I will support you in that. We are in this together."

he is definately have a hard time beacuse he can fix it, and he broke it. hard for a guy.

seeing me upset is very hard for him, because he knows and admits every time - i did this to you and im sorry.

also seeing me be upset is not the norm since this all happened, i was the fixer...

last time we when away he came back and the full list was presented, so iam hoping that it doesnt repeat itself. It would be like groundhog's day. over and over.

Going to get in a better state of mind by 3pm today, have a drink at the airport(something with an umbrella), that chris thread just upset me so much- there are too many similarities- and it someone that has really helped me alot. oohhh just mad at him now.

Ignore the melancholy, absorb the beauty and hope;

this is one of my favorites!!!!!! from before all of this!

thank you, makes you a bit sad, but gives you the push to move forward.

this is another one, dont know why... ready to vacation like a rockstar, thank you!!! only 2 days but hey is an island and it not attached to NY.




The Cave"

It's empty in the valley of your heart
The sun, it rises slowly as you walk
Away from all the fears
And all the faults you've left behind

The harvest left no food for you to eat
You cannibal, you meat-eater, you see
But I have seen the same
I know the shame in your defeat

But I will hold on hope
And I won't let you choke
On the noose around your neck

And I'll find strength in pain
And I will change my ways
I'll know my name as it's called again

Cause I have other things to fill my time
You take what is yours and I'll take mine
Now let me at the truth
Which will refresh my broken mind

So tie me to a post and block my ears
I can see widows and orphans through my tears
I know my call despite my faults
And despite my growing fears

But I will hold on hope
And I won't let you choke
On the noose around your neck

And I'll find strength in pain
And I will change my ways
I'll know my name as it's called again

So come out of your cave walking on your hands
And see the world hanging upside down
You can understand dependence
When you know the maker's land

So make your siren's call
And sing all you want
I will not hear what you have to say

Cause I need freedom now
And I need to know how
To live my life as it's meant to be

And I will hold on hope
And I won't let you choke
On the noose around your neck

And I'll find strength in pain
And I will change my ways
I'll know my name as it's called again

So how was that mini-vacation?

it was good! had a nice time! just finished session with jennifer, so we are back on track.

let me ask a male female thing. we had a conversation one night when we were away where he opened up a bit more about he knows that it could end if i couldnt do this and he was just thankful that he was getting another chance, this was the first time i got this. well that was nice to hear, that he appreciated me, admiration was my highest need.... is it harder for men to say those things? i see alot of ww here that are saying it and few kind men, but is it harder for men to say that or is it just my h problem and how would you suggest i kindly encourage more of that without sounding like i need a pat on the back every day, thats not what i am looking for. does this make sense.

NW-i hope you are doing good, update please!

Glad to hear you guys (y'all ) had a good time!

Re: admiration, I think my wife said something very similar to me once. You know how it is, if it isn't a need of yours, you just kind of forget to do it for others. I bet if you asked, he wouldn't say he didn't admire you, to the contrary actually, and just never thought to tell you. If it were me, I'd appreciate being told what you wanted, what you liked, what you didn't like, etc.

In other words, just tell him what you wrote above about encouragement, etc. Sure, he'll probably overdo it, but that'd be ok, wouldn't it? As long as you have fun with it, you should be fine. Make a joke of it, "Hey, I need a pat on the back RIGHT NOW (ha ha)". Sheesh, it's hard to type what I'm saying.

We're doing ok over here, thanks for asking. W and the kids are at her parents until Thursday so I've got the house to myself. We've been kind of slacking in the UA department, need to bump that up a bit I think. I don't want to get in a lull or get back into the same-old-same-old...know what I mean?

An honest man has no problem stating the facts of reality.

Come again?

ok.. but i still think it is harder for men to say sappy things, especially if they are not used to it.

nw- took your advice and send a flirty txt and said "i like when you say those things to me and the sappier the better", well what i got back was quite sappy.

progress...

So that was a good thing, right?

In my book, a so-so method of delivery can be excused a bit if the intent is honorable. Having good intentions and all that. Not everyone can wax poetic like Hollywood would lead us to believe and, when I try, my wife usually just laughs as says to quit, she gets what I'm trying to say.

that was a good thing! the delivery method was fine for me, he responded to mine. I dont expect him to wax poetic at all and you are right i think i would laugh, that would be a DJ.

i do get alot of heartfelt notes, alot. I know he is learning new method of communication (using his words... ha), i will keep encouraging.

thx!

Well that worked getting lots of sappy talk.


question... sometime during my H trickle truthing me, i took off my wedding bands, I was at a business lunch today and we were discussing an event we held and this female said you brought a guest , are you married? I said yes� for how long?.... 17 years�..oh�� then we got into other chatter, she was staring at my ring less finger the whole time. And was definitely looking for more answers. I felt very insecure (I hope the right word) but just very strange. I have noticed that on other occasion�s people have also been noticing. He is proudly wearing his new ring that I got for our renewal, which came 2 days after D day#1. I do not want my old rings back. I am still so new at this so I am not ready for new ones. I may be more sensitive about this since I am not wearing them so I notice. What do y�all think?

Are people are probably thinking, that he married to someone else and I am the bimbo- HA!!!

If you aren't ready to wear a ring, then wait until you are. If someone asks, you could always just laugh and say a stone fell out and it's getting repaired, it's getting resized, whatever you think.

Those that noticed probably forgot about it a few minutes later, but then I'm a guy so my opinion may not be valid

Should we get the impression that you aren't keen on him keeping the ring that he is currently wearing?

As an aside, we sold my wife's original ring when she recommitted to this so your sentiment sounds familiar. Trust me, you don't gear near in trade what you paid for it! We didn't really care, though.

she was itching to find out who the guy i was with, maybe she had her eyes on him, the other commented that he was tall and handsome..... But i will do that in the future.

no, I like that he is wearing his ring, its bittersweet, he didnt do it before.. we saw this ring on vacation well before he really became wayward and it was too extravagant to get, so before we renewed i tracked it down. i arrive right after.

my cousins are coming over soon and one is a real cryer- i havent see her since (shes a southerner BTW), so drama/girls cry should be coming- all they want is whats best for me and without my mom i know they are all very concerned.

really when do you feel like you can get thru a day without being triggered.

Also whats with the 6mo anger thing - im at 4 mos. just want to be prepared,

a BS timeline of feelings would be a big help. kidding.

ok

I have not been very good this weekend, i kinda ruined it. i am just in my shell. he really is trying very hard. he is doing all the homework, encouraging reading worksheets, and all of that.

I am just so mad at him for what he has done, every stupid thing is a trigger.

I dont know if it beacuse there were so fnk many, when i found out the first one, i could do it, really. this is just so much!

its alot and i am mad and sad, not resentful. just very down, it alot to handle and so much to comprehend its really overwhelming.

I read everybodys trials and sometime i thing jesz i am luck he had no emotional attachment, thank god, but then my reality hit and there are just too many. 3 sex, 5 BJ and dates with 10+others- multiple times- so you do the math, i dont know which is better, neiother i know.. he has been poly tested 99% accuracy. this is the first time i have said it! its alot.

this is the first time i am posting thru tears. I know this is the whole greiving stage, which i am doing out of order, but how do i get past this. we are really working very hard, and when its good its fantastic, but then the brain switches. i know 2 years then it fades.

maybe bc i olny found out the whole truth in may, this just has been a fnk long haul (since feb), and i just dont know if i can ever get thru it.

sundays are never good days for me

chickadee1 - I'm sorry that you had a rough day. This is a rollercoaster of emotions-at least he sounds engaged. That's a good thing.

thank you andy, he is --i am just struggling with this, and when i show him how i am feeling he just become a mess. i guess i am lucky with that, but i still am pissed, i mean really pissed. not showing that, no worries, its alot to deal with or just to get behind me for ONE day, just one would be nice.

going to get my book and read a simple nice story, tomorrow is another day.

Chickadee,

Don't believe the books about grieving, not everyone grieves in the same pattern. And, sometimes you go through one stage into another stage of grief and then back to the first stage.

I think being in the position you are, grieving the loss of your old marriage, has got to be one of the hardest things anyone can go through in their life. I really don't think anyone can understand the depths of that hurt until they go through it (and I haven't). Take your time grieving, and don't let anyone tell you not to.

((((Hugs))))

well that was a bad day for me... thanks for your help!!!

he was great this AM and did say he would spend the rest of his life trying to make me happy. and offered to move if i necessary, that big bc we would both be starting form scratch, at some point i will take him up on that just more in the bank for now then the sailboat in the keys is just fine for me.


then some other sappy things... thanks NW sappy is working!


so he really is trying, i know.... my brain is overtime, like ok now... how long really will he keep trying... i am a bit obsessive i know.

All normal Dee. Im on the underground part of the rollercoaster ride right now so know the feelings you are having.

Just remember we will get to the top of the hill again and be able to see all the beauty around us again.

Glad things are looking up your way. And, hey, if you have any money left over, I wouldn't mind having a sailboat in the FL Keys either!

Just don't lose that momentum, keep plugging away at it. Plan another weekend trip, things to do during the week, UA time, etc.

we are plugging away. - have nice plans for this weekend.

working with therapist, on how to stop the triggers or racing thoughts. see there are lot of triggers, i am not only taking triggers like the commerial on the radio of the place you went with XYZ, but also like. Remember christmas, wasnt that fun, and my brian goes yeah but you were boinking XYZ and thats why you didnt help me set up blah blah blah.

any suggeststions for a mind trick to ease this (did the stop sign thing), this is killing me. and i know this is all me. I have explained it all to him and he is definately trying hard to help me. I just dont know what kind of help i need other than a lobotomy.

It's early days hun for the hurty stuff to go. Triggers will be around for a while I am afraid, you have to kinda coast over them I think. I don't think there is a magic pill.

Perhaps just acknowledge them and let them go. You can't change them, so you have to change the way you react to them.

I still get triggered sometimes and some of them hurt, others are just a nudge.

We travelled across the states last year by train. I took lots of pics and made them into a huge collage. They are framed at the bottom of the stairs. For a while all I could think when I saw them was ...

we had the holiday of a lifetime, and you came back and s*****d her in a public toilet. Well done!!!

Maybe it was something like flooding a phobia but I can now look at them and remember all the good bits. If I do get a wander in of the other stuff.......I smile.......I mean......a public toilet...........by the goddess!!!!

[quote=Tanam]Perhaps just acknowledge them and let them go. You can't change them, so you have to change the way you react to them.

I know i have to change the way i react, but its hard, because i want to change it all!!!

we had the holiday of a lifetime, and you came back and s*****d her in a public toilet. Well done!!!

thats exactly what i am taking about!
/quote]

i am just hoping for one day with out them, so far so good.....

ok question... H went into a panic, his phone battery was dying on firday, he made 2 stops and call 80 million time when he arrived at meeting. well the panic pushed him straight to a verizon store to buy a new phone, same number, but the mobistealth doesnt support this new phone. so big bucks later.

no spyware.. have to get flexispy. he said no lets go to the store to switch back, so we did, you have to wait 14 days to switch back. so in the car he asks how do we come to a decision on what to do. lets spend the money for the flexispy in addition to mobi and then let me do something for you to make up for my mistake.

i explained this wasnt about money it was that it was about independent behavior, if he spoke to me before going into the store we would not be in the situation. he gets that he cant do that crap anymore. now what is my compensation for this, he is asking... how would you all deal with this?

opps one more>> H said he doesnt feel comfortable when he isnt with me, is that normal i know for a BS that may be the case but a WH? should this concern me?

My opinion...the guy freaks out because there is no spyware on his phone and when you're not around.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about any "compensation" over the phone.

Sounds like he's scared of screwing up and losing you.

I'd say you're doing good!

Off to the beach for a week, going to sit on my rear and be completely worthless for a while.

Hi chickadee! I haven't posted to you before, but your post right here really jumped out at me.

I absolutely felt this way, and I agree 100% with NW -- your WH is scared of messing up, scared of losing you. Scared of not doing it right, making a mistake. Maybe feels overwhelmed by the enormousness of what he's done, worrying about his ability to overcome all of that. Adopting EPs is sometimes a major change, and you worry about remembering all of them and getting it right all of the time.

Those were my feelings, anyway. At the end of the day, it doesn't help much to extrapolate those to your WH - you can always ask him for his thoughts on the matter.

mrs. vanilla!! i do read your posts and get a different perspective, thats why this site works!

he does have lots of lists! and is worried about remembering them all exactly!

the scared thing worries me...

i will ask his thoughts.

thks! happy 4th everyone!

need help... baby moma just emailed H, about DS, not am emergency, she doesnt get it! how do i respond, on his email, or not??

thoughts???

Catch us up please, chickadee: did he send her a NC letter? It sounds as if he did, since you say she doesn't seem to "get it".

Her email addy should have been blocked. Was this done? Did she use a new addy?

If a NC letter was sent, you should ignore the email and block her address. If no letter was sent, then one needs to be sent now, in his "voice". However, you must read and approve it and post it yourself.

yes it was sent in april. thought it was blocked, she emailed at work address. I think its another email address, just shaking to much to look.

DS needs cash, so she emailed,the NC letter stated that if DS needed anything it would go thru me. this was not an emergency. and DS knows the rule and had held true to it. just an oilve branch.

i am just so pissed. she could use the $ that H lent her to give to her S.

better EP's should have been put in place.

Just explained that to him. is all or nothing. i am going to protect myself, bc what H is doing is not working. I have been carrying this fear for months and it comes true. i cannot carry this fear for any longer.

i really want to write her back. i am so flippin mad. ant both of them.

Calm down Dee. She is trying to get to you and it worked. Just block the email address or shut down his and start a new one. Im sure this really bothers him too if he is really trying.

How did you find outabout the email? Did he tell you or did you find it?

If he was the one that told you about it he must be shaking in his shoes right now thinking this will be the last straw and you are done...... DON'T LET HER WIN!!!

shes trying to get him, not me. she wants everything to be ok back to normal, when she could communicated with DS dad. and no one is mad at her- needy and insecure.

oh yeah its bothering him, he is shaking. but i am too- see there is no good solution with this-

she will always be around as long as DS is... thisa isnt about her winning- it about how much do i have to go thru.

we were working on the new phone together and saw it. he blocked it, but she know where he works and live, it will happen again.

should he/me write DS to explain to his needy mother, that he will not communicate with her? also not DS cannot get $ this time bc if she does she will know the email worked. thoughts???

uggh great way to start the week...

so H emailed DSS, explaining that baby momma was not allowed to contact H for any reason and let him know that if he needed $ he needed to contact us directly.

DSS- great guy!- emailed back how sorry he was that his mother did this and no he doesnt need any $. he gets it- " I just don't understand why she would do that. I hope this event didn't set you back too far."

All of the email address are blocked. and the email was ignored.

H knows that if this happens again i will not be very calm to her. She will do it again, unless DSS told her to back off on his own. Any suggestions on how to calmly handle this, I would like to have a plan, beacuse my plan will not be very good.

Unfortunately, any response from you or your H to babymomma will probably just fuel the fire. You will probably need to file an RO/harassment charge to get her to stop.

Sorry you are dealing with this, chicka. *sigh*

no response from us. DSS may speak to her, but otherwise another C&D letter, if it happens again. worked with OW1, so sad my life, he picked the needy ones......

so is life now......

Ok� mind wandering- what else is new

I asked for a guarantee this weekend, just a guarantee that he wouldn�t do this crap to me again. That he would give me the courtesy to tell me when he was unhappy and wanted out, there are no more second chances for getting caught, be a man and say you want out, if you are not happy.

I am still struggling with how to move on, really thing are great he is meeting all my need as I am for him A ++ on this week diagnostic. I am just struggling thinking if this is enough for me, and I don�t know if I am being clouded by the crap and using it as an excuse or not.

I am having a hard time with forgiveness, yes, who wouldn�t. resentment no, annoyed yes � I am a good person and I can usually forgive bc I can see there is potential and reasons for thinking in a hurtful way- so I am not the person that can never forgive, at all.

I am not saying I am any different at all, i actually am lucky that I did not have to break up an emotional relationship and PA. mine was just a lot of shagging (I am from NY- but I think the other word will get blocked) with a tremendous amount of lies, wow the lies, to everyone, the secret second life in full force, it actually was a 3rd or 4th life. So any advice on how to handle this would be helpful. It�s all about me now.

We have really holed up for a long time, and he is feeling he should see his parents again, they do live 3 blocks, but we have the plague right now, the we now exposed, but I have no problem telling them that this is what happened and what we are dealing with and they can accept us or not. They have a track record for cutting people off for not having been the perfect catholic life, i.e., DSS, they pushed him out at 19 and owned (shame theme), it took 4 years of convincing him that this is who we are and if they couldn�t accept it they were missing a wonderful grandson. We sat down with them and told them this is our life they could be a part of it or not. But that�s it.

Now for my 2nd (taker) dilemma, I love my DSS really he is a charm in my life, we were meant to meet regardless, and I will always have the connection to one of the OW because of him. When he married, when he is sick, when there are just the silly things that a 20+ need help with. Not that he would ever put me in a position; it will come up with life. So I feel like I have a no win here, stay and have to deal with the Ex- who became the OW, or leave the person I love�.

Come on some one here has to have cheated with their ex-spouse... help me out on this one.

Sorry for the long post y�all 2 issues-

after writing all that- I realized my mom�s bday is tomorrow, she died 12/08. MS for 37 years then the big C. I was the primary care giver since I was 14. I truly have the best childhood a kid could ask for, really and truly- disability make you think in different ways, if the role model is positive ( MS is a strange disease)

Hey chickadee-

Just dropping in to see how things are going. No magic words as far as wondering if you really wanted what you fought for and won, but just keep looking for those good things and plod ahead, you know? It's kind of hard to do, but what choice do we really have sometimes and, eventually, I've found that you think less and less of those bad things.

Me, I probably think about the last year about three or four times a day now. It's coming up on one year since I first posted here, and I remember those days when it was a struggle just to make it the next hour, much less the next day. We just found out on Sunday that we're having our third child in March...*chuckle* guess the idea of dropping the BC pills to save money really backfired. Go figure. This time last year we about divorced, now we're adding another family member.

So, I think we've both come a long way here, keep on plugging away at it! It sounds like you've got one of those rare former-waywards that really had that lightbulb moment.

As for DSS, at least he's old enough that you don't have to engage his mother. A bit more tedious to avoid seeing her, perhaps, but certainly doable with his help. No reason to associate with people that you don't like and I wouldn't give a damn about what anybody thought about it. Life's too short, if you see her, ignore her. If she persists, tell her to go eff herself and if anyone complains about it, tell them to mind their own business. C'mon, be that New York-Italian-woman stereotype that we all see in the movies!

There's your pep talk from your favorite Southerner. Hope tomorrow goes a little better.

baby yeah!!!!!!!!!

thank you NW. -nice to hear that you also think of it 3/4 day- i thought i was crazy

big talk last night, lets see how he processes it all. the family is coming over on saturday ... dun dun dun... we will sit and explain what is happening.....

for you and your family!!!

Hope the get-together goes well and all this drama gets behind you soon.

Remember you cannot please everyone, ha ha.

alot of posting from both sides going on has got me thinking, thats not good.

my H has been doing everything in the program, working with jennifer seeing our own thearpy solo and together once a week. she also belives in MB and is convinced that we will come out much stronger.


my H is having a hard time juggling his lists and all of the things that he has to do, on when he "fails" at a SIMPLE TASK,he is feeling very down. for example, i asked as one of my need that he call and text. we have been over thing for weeks now and after his part i say i would like if you would call more. there have been times when its hours before i hear from him. (whats the average H & W communication per day?) i just need to hear from him more, bc of his history (and at this stage), i know he gets into his lala world, and i wont do that again, look where that got me.

and when discussed, he said sometime he has nothing to say. he not into emotions but he is learning (engineer!!!) we are working on this.

i think follwing all the rules is great, but i am feeling like i need more, like i need to be the wow, not just this list of things to do and the rules.

just listening to everyone, i have been feeling a bit odd about all of this.

the one thing i am lucky with is that (or not)i am confident on my own,i know i am a good person, i am proud that i have not gone his route, i am independent and could more than survive on my own, that was prob bc he wasnt around. i dont really have big problems with the OW's they are skakho. my problem in that area is with his behavior. and i know there are not may answers to the "why" question. i can accept that with time (hopefully)

my question is about myself. how does he wow me? i feel like we are coming down from the trauma/drama and i am good a fixing that. maybe i am still in aftershock.

thoughts/ suggestions?

chickadee, maybe I'm projecting too much of my own experience, but this again resonates with me.

You guys are sooooo fresh from D-day, and I remember at that time that I, too, had all sorts of lists and rules and new habits to learn, old habits to unlearn... A lot going on with that alone, and then you put it in the context of infidelity - and in the context of the WS trying to earn their F, in particular - and it's quite a bit to work through.

For me, I think things got better - easier? - with time. New habits became more ingrained, and slowly - sloooooowly - the paralysis of fear over messing it all up was replaced by a budding confidence in both my "F" and recovery: that it was okay to mess up, just keep striving for the good things.

I know this is from the WS perspective, and you were asking how your H can wow you; however, I wonder if he's not experiencing some of what I mentioned above, and if he's focusing on that stuff, his "ease" in the relationship is not there, and maybe you're feeling some of that? Does any of that make sense? (Gosh, I have the idea in my head, but for the life of me am having a terrible time articulating it.)

Does it seem unnatural or forced? And because of that, you feel like it's work and not wow?

If that's the case, I would say give it time. Keep encouraging him, discuss openly and honestly and kindly how things are going, (because, you know, a BS doesn't have enough asked of them after infidelity.../sarcasm). Hopefully he'll settle in to things, the ease will return to the relationship, and the wow factor will reappear.

Again, only my thoughts. Don't know if that's what you were looking for, but that's what your post made me think of.

At least from a WW perspective, I totally, totally get this. I actually think this is a good thing - it seems he's taking this seriously, and he hopes for success.


I said almost this exact same thing, and then I realized I just had to dig a little deeper beneath the surface to extricate whatever thoughts/emotions I did have. About anything, really. Self-reflection doesn't always come naturally. Maybe that is the case?

Are you asking, then, "Now what?"

Do you think, sometimes, that y'all are always in "trying" mode and forgetting to smell the roses (for lack of a better phrase)?

For me, it took a while (and still does sometimes) to shift from that betrayed mindset to where I'm not having to worry so damn much about the things that made nearly all of 2010 pretty lousy. I got used to worrying and kind of forgot how to enjoy life sometimes. Make sense?


Mrs V,
Your response made perfect sense to me and several points hit home. Thanks for the post.

Just talked a bit with FWW on this topic... or the topic of conversation in general.

Now, you mention the profession here, so here is an idea; think of what kind of thinking an engineer does.

For the most part, it is fact, figure, and data-driven thinking. As you stated "not 'into' emotions" - read here; http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2528622&page=1.

In this type of thinking emotions are not a fact, figure, or piece of data. It ends up being an "irrelevant" association.

For you, on the other hand, emotions are an extremely relevant piece of data. Yet, since the engineer doesn't "record" emotional data, he doesn't have much to pass on. He "has nothing to say," because he is trying to approach your conversational model, and hasn't developed the proper data collection habits yet.

Now, you may have mentioned his profession as a tongue-in-cheek notion, but your sentiment has echoed in 3 different threads from 3 different women (2 of which are coincidentally about engineers). And I recall another thread in which a woman referred to her husband as "emotionally illiterate."

Now, let's see if the villagers get their torches; it's generally a guy thing, not a thing about professions.

So next, a question; have you ever been describing something to your H, and noticed a moment when, in the middle of describing it, you lost his attention?